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▶ 0:23:52okay yes sir the subcommittee on Aviation will come to order I ask you ask consent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing without objection so ordered I also ask you sent that the members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions without objection so ordered as a reminder if members wish to insert a document into the record please also email it to documents mail.house.gov I
▶ 0:24:23will now recognize myself for the purposes of an opening statement for five minutes I I regret I regret to be opening my first hearing as chairman of the subcommittee on Aviation in the wake of two tragic Aviation accidents that claimed 74 Souls last week here in our nation's capital and in Philadelphia this pack week past week has been devastating for the aviation community and the traveling public our thoughts and prayers remain with the victims and their families and with all who have
▶ 0:24:53been affected by the accidents that occurred I'd like to personally thank all of the First Responders and the investigators that continue to bring facts to light in both accidents thank you for your continued service and dedication to delivering answers to the victim's families and loved ones there will be a time in place to review the ntsb's findings and to discuss how best to ensure that the appropriate safeguards are in place to protect against
▶ 0:25:23such tragedies from happening again in the meantime the aviation subcommittee will continue monitoring developments as the investigation unfold and we will work to keep members appraised of new information with that said I would like to thank our Witnesses for appearing today you all bring unique insights and perspectives to the table and I look forward to a very robust discussion on the current landscape of counter uas Technologies in this country unmanned
▶ 0:25:54aircraft systems uas also known as are extremely popular among the American people so much so that there are more than 1 million drones registered with FAA as this number is expected to grow it's going to grow significantly in coming years drones are increasingly being used by Aviation hobbyists professional photographers real estate professionals law enforcement officials drone as first responder programs
▶ 0:26:24have proven to be a crucial tool for law enforcement officials in their mission to protect and serve their communities in a timely and efficient manner additionally drones have the potential to transform the delivery of essential Goods such as medicines and Commercial Goods to our communities that said the wide range integration of small drones into our landsca airspace at low altitudes possesses unique challenges we've got challenges
▶ 0:26:54both on the ground and in our nation's airspace such challenges were brought to the Forefront recently in New Jersey where over the course of a few short weeks in December more than 5,000 reported drone sightings were submitted to local state and federal authorities while Federal authorities in the Trump administration had made it clear that there there were no nefarious drones and that operators were authorized the fact of the matter is that authorities received 5,000 reports
▶ 0:27:245,000 reports folks is significant and telling of the fact that the aviation Community must better educate the public on lawful drone operations make no mistake the recent events in New Jersey have highlighted the ease with which Bad actors could utilize drones with nefarious and malicious intent or conduct illicit operations we must continue to support and Foster new Aviation Technologies the future of
▶ 0:27:55American Aviation depends on it that responsibility includes ensuring the appropriate safe use of counter uas Technologies in the nation's airspace by authorized users to make certain that civilian or civil aviation safety is not jeopardized with the increasing rate of drones expected to integrate into our airspace and the potential for their misuse by Bad actors now is the time to establish a properly scaled well balanced
▶ 0:28:25and legal legally sound framework for for counter drone authorities and the corresponding technologies that is why this committee worked with the Committees on homeland security and Judiciary last Congress to produce a comprehensive package to reform and reasonably expand the existing counter drone authorities granted to the Department of Homeland Security and Department of Justice as a former law enforcement official I was pleased to see that legislation included a counter uas mitigation pilot program
▶ 0:28:55for state and local law enforcement marking the first time counter drone authorities may be delegated to non-federal entities I was also pleased that we were able to expand upon and improve that pilot program at markup so that more law enforcement agencies were able to protect more sites while we were able to get the bill over the Finish we weren't able to get the bill over the Finish Line last year I look forward to working with all the stakeholders and other committees to further improve the bill I again want to thank
▶ 0:29:25our Witnesses for their willingness to appear for us today your expertise in the use and development of these systems will prove critical to the subcommittee as we continue our efforts to address the threats posed by unauthorized or unlawful uas operations I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee Mr Larson for five minutes for an opening statement yeah thank thank you chair uh ranking member um Cohen is uh going to be a little bit late
▶ 0:29:55so I'll take the opening statement slot here for this but I want to thank uh chairman Nells for calling today's hearing on counter unmanned uh to counter unmanned aircraft systems first off I want to say the last you know week or so has been pretty heartbreaking uh and very trying for our country and for the US Aviation system and the people who work in it both of last week's tragedies the pic midair collision and the aeromedical lar Jet crash in Philadelphia are stri Stark reminders of the complexity of the national airspace
▶ 0:30:26system and why ensuring AV safety has to remain our top priority before we launch into today's hearing topic I want to say a few words about the national Transportation safety board's investigation of the pic midair Collision first off as of Tuesday um all the victims have been recovered I think that's an incredible Testament to the uh the First Responders the divers on the scene um we're grateful to the NTSB personnel as well who are actively supporting victim's families through the agency's
▶ 0:30:56family assistance program the NTSB confirmed that recording devices from um both aircraft are recovered and in the capable hands of ntsp experts for analysis and I appreciate every agency that's been involved in this whole of government effort all levels of government effort all the governmental parties involved including the FAA and the Army are cooperating and lending the appropriate resources and expertise and hundreds of government employees are supporting this Mission um and so I just want to really thank them first and foremost
▶ 0:31:26uh they're being challenged in their work it is challenging work and I want to thank them very much for that work as a member of Congress of course I have a role in this but as a citizen who cares deeply for us Aviation and for the tra uh safety of the traveling public I'm proud of these public servants and grateful for their Duty and their sacrifice as the investigation continues I do think it's counterproductive to speculate on the causes of Aviation accidents including these two and we have to allow the NTSB to complete its work before Congress considers potential legislative responses that's generally what we've
▶ 0:31:56done in the past um and hopefully we can do that in the future this committee will look continue to look to the NTSB for facts on this on these devastating accidents and we're prepared to support investigators wherever necessary but as we await more information um I give my deepest condolences and thoughts uh to the passengers the family uh of the passengers the crew of both aircraft and their families the all their loved ones and of course the First Responders continue to think of them and their work
▶ 0:32:26now to the hearing at hand the growing number of drone uses um uh today presents various New Opportunities and challenges for the airspace with these evolving demands on our airspace we rely on fact-based policies and want to reject speculation to ensure the safety and uh of and restore the Public's confidence in US Aviation uh last December alleged drone sightings across the country particularly in Northeast Corridor captured the nation's attention and according to the FAA and Federal Security Partners more than 5,000
▶ 0:32:57sightings were reported in just a few weeks although these sightings were confirmed to be a combination of authorized commercial drone operations crude aircraft and other traditional Aerospace users I recognize the confusion and concern these sightings caused across local communities even if not nefarious in intent uh misguided drone operations uh can bring us airports to a standstill threaten critical infrastructure and potentially endanger National Security as the chairman noted an estimated 1.12 million small
▶ 0:33:28uas are forecast to be registered registered in the US by 2028 and so Congress has to ensure that appropriate Federal agenes and other eligible entities have the necessary authorities and resources to address Safety and Security risks posed by these systems the fa's mission is to ensure the safest Aerospace system in the world a task that is exceedingly more complex due to new entrance under the 2018 reauthorization Congress directed the fa to ensure that Technologies to detect and mitigate potential
▶ 0:33:58risks by errant or hostile drones do not adversely impact the safe and efficient operation of the nas or the national airspace system while the industry has made significant improvements in developing their counter uas Technologies it's my understanding that preliminary results from the fa's airport safety and air airspace Hazard mitigation and enforcement program also known as the 383 testing program has shown that some counter uas systems do not always operate as described by the manufacturer May interfere with fa and Airport radar
▶ 0:34:28and even disrupt local telecommunications so given those risks it's critical for the fa to play a significant role in the testing approval and deployment of uas detection and mitigation systems why and that's why this committee itself has such an important role so Dr kahill welcome back and thank you for your continued insights as an expert in this field and we look forward to your testimony about how these systems operate and the importance of EV valuing the systems and over the years unlawful and unauthorized drone incursions have suspended airport operations and disrupted
▶ 0:34:58flights for thousands of passengers many of us do remember the 2023 ground stop at Washington National Airport the 2018 disruption at Gatwick and near London both caused by errant drone incursions so Mr uh mcclaflin I'm interested in learning more about unique challenges the airports like DFW have in dealing with these incursions uh I'm going to just skip ahead and uh want to say to um the zement I look forward to hearing um about the industry's insights on improving counter uas one last
▶ 0:35:28note Mr chair I just want to last Congress this committee approved a bipartisan Tri committee Bill the counter us Authority security safety and reauthorization act to pave the way for scalable integration of counter us Technologies and ensure the safety of the flying public and people on the ground to say again bipartisan and three agreed it could have been such a shocking event in Congress that it prevented other committees from helping us move it forward because anytime
▶ 0:35:58we get bipartisan and three committees to agree uh it is a shocking event but we are working together on this in a bipartisan way to ensure that uh law enforcement other entities have uh reasonable expansions of their authorities and to ensure that counter us Technologies can be deployed safely so I look forward to working with you all with the house Homeland Security committee Judiciary committees to reintroduce and to pass this critical legislation that I yield back thank you thank you ranking member Larson you ready to V
▶ 0:36:29I'll pause I'd like to take a moment to recognize uh representative man who is from Kansas while it is not normal practice of the subcommittee to allow additional oral opening statements with the concurrence of the ranking member thank you today we will recognize Mr Man for a statement yeah um thank you Mr chairman realize this is a little bit um atypical for this committee but it's been an anical week as we all know in the aviation industry so appreciate um you and and the ranking member for yield me just just a few moments I'm one of four
▶ 0:36:59members of Congress from the great state of Kansas as you can imagine um Kansas is grieving um continue to grieve my my sense is you know when things happen there are some things that you get over and there are some things that you just kind of get through and certainly for those um people around the country that lost loved ones certainly for the Kansas Community very tight-knit Community the aviation community in Kansas this is something that uh we will never get over U but we will get through it and January 29th when American
▶ 0:37:305342 um tragically um crash you know January 29th is actually Kansas day where we celebrate Kansas becoming the 34th state on January 29th of 1861 and uh in Kansas our state motto is AD asra paraspa which in Latin means to the stars in difficulty and this last week uh my wife Audrey and I and millions of kons have been praying to the good Lord who made the stars um to get us through this difficulty so there's going to be a lot to uncover in the days ahead
▶ 0:38:00uh Mr chairman but we need to get to the bottom of what happened and and do everything we possibly can do in a bip Parson manner to make sure that never happens again so thank you for the time and with that I yield back thank you Tracy for your remarks I now recognize ranking member Cohen of this subcommittee for five minutes for an opening statement thank you Mr chair and sir I appreciate your statement it was very well spoken and heartfelt and I think all of America shares Kansas's grief this is an American Tragedy thank than you good morning and thank you chairman Nells
▶ 0:38:30for convening this important hearing and I also want to thank the witnesses for being here to testify before we begin I want to acknowledge the tra tragic aviation accident that occurred last week I was up last night and I was looking at a video of the accident that they the New York Times created at 3D and I kept looking at it and thinking it's not going to happen they're going to miss it I it's hard to believe that it happened I mean it's just tragic and you think of the people and the pilots and every everybody is just awful um we
▶ 0:39:00need to study those and we will and we'll find out what happened and how we can improve our system in DC in and around the country uh last year Congress took significant steps in enhancing air safety through the FAA reauthorization Act of 2024 this expanded Air Traffic Control Workforce training improves the runway safety through new detection system and mandates a 25-hour cockpit voice recorders to help investigate make better investigations uh possible because the record we saved for investigators to to study Additionally the bill
▶ 0:39:30directs the fa to address near misses and Runway incursions we had too many of them last year and have too many of them for any amount is too many we need to invest in resilient airport infrastructure and enhance helicopter safety these measures are critical and are still in the process of being implemented but as as last week's trategy reminds us our work is never finished safety must always be our top priority and as product changes rules sometimes change unfortunately some have attempted to politicize this tragedy president Trump immediately speculated
▶ 0:40:01the tragic crash at DCA was somehow caused by diversity equity and inclusion nothing has ever been the cause of Dei let me be clear this is absolutely no evidence no evidence that DEA played any role in this accident and any claims otherwise are baseless taking away for the real issue that we need to study similarly I want to debunk another recent Aviation related conspiracy theory the so-called New Jersey drone crisis um late last year social media was flooded with claims of M drone swarms shutting down airports and threatening Public Safety I thought Orson WS had
▶ 0:40:31come back in fact a full review by the FAA FBI and then DHS found no credible security threats many of these sightings were misidentified commercial drones law enforcement operations even fixed swing aircraft mistaken for drones we must separate fact from fiction so that we can focus on real threats not viral internet hoaxes and not run to the cameras to make a statement demand that Washington do something about it when it was nothing to be done about that brings us to today's hearing on counter unmanned aircraft systems or drones drones are becoming
▶ 0:41:01increasingly common presence in our airspace offering opportunities for Innovation but also presenting risks unauthorized Reckless or malicious drone activity can disrupt airport operations threaten critical infrastructure and even pose National Security concerns a great example of responsible drone integration is happening in Memphis International Airport in my district under the faa's Beyond program the Memphis Shelby County Airport Authority and FedEx are pioneering the safe use of drones airport perimeter security runway inspections and aircraft Parts delivery
▶ 0:41:32this initiative includes Beyond visual line of sight operations enabling drones to operate without a direct line line of sight while maintaining strict safety standards Memphis is proving that drones when properly managed can enhance safety and efficiency rather than create new risks and public concern however challenges still remain over the past decade we've seen drones interfere with commercial flights obstruct operations and even be used for criminal activities just last year A man was arrested for attempting to use drone to attack Nashville power grid
▶ 0:42:02these incidents highlight why we must ensure that our laws and regulations keep Pace with this technology last Congress the bipartisan counter uas Authority security safety and reauthorization acts sought to renew and reform current legal authorities that provide the DHS and the Department of Justice with critical tools to detect and mitigate credible threats posed by drones I commend the work done by the three Committees of jurisdiction that produce this bipartisan multi-jurisdictional Bill and a hopeful passage during this Congress before today's hearing and hearing from our esteemed panel of witnesses who will help us
▶ 0:42:32better understand how we can strengthen defenses against Throne threats while maintaining high standards of Aviation safety and I look forward to working with the chairman Nells this session you'll back the balance about time thank you ranking member Cohen I'd like to now welcome our Witnesses and thank them for being here today briefly I take a moment to explain our lighting system to our witnesses there are three lights in front of you obviously green means go yellow you're running out of time and red please conclude your I ask unes sent that the witness's full statements be included in the record without objection
▶ 0:43:02so ordered I also ask unes sent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our Witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing without objection so ordered I also ask you consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing without objection C to ordered as your written testimony has been made part of the record the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral
▶ 0:43:33remarks please to to 5 minutes representative begagit of Alaska the only one all of Alaska I'd like to now recognize you to provide a brief introduction for our first witness Dr kahill thank you Mr chairman Dr kahill thank you for making the long trip uh from Alaska to our nation's capital uh and welcome back to the transportation and infrastructure committee we know that you are no stranger to this committee and I grateful that Congress can rely on your expertise and the work
▶ 0:44:03of the Alaska Center for unmanned aerial aircraft systems integration or aasi at the University of Alaska Fairbanks to guide us on these important matters notably aasi has been on the ground floor since 2014 supporting the federal government's efforts to perform research and development in the unmanned aerial systems or uas space and has been a leader in the development of solutions that allow us to safely integrate uas into
▶ 0:44:33the national Aerospace system I also want to commend you for your 10 years of leadership at aasi it is an important Milestone and essential that Alaska remains a leader in this area with its participation as an FAA test site member of the Beyond program and the faa's assure program as a newcomer to Congress I'm quickly learning that it is unfortunately normal for an agency to have multiple programs that all play a role in the work required to integrate uas
▶ 0:45:04into the nas what is clear to me is that we need to rapidly accelerate the harmonization of our laws and regulations to keep up with the pace of technology and the threat that unauthorized or nefarious uas pose to our national security and Homeland defense I'm glad your testimony shines a light on some of the deficiencies we currently have in the governance framework work for countering uas threats I appreciate your willingness to speak frankly and directly to the challenges at hand that is the alasan
▶ 0:45:35way and if we can get things done right here in DC there's no limit to what we can achieve in our great state I look forward to working with you and my colleagues in this Congress on this important matter and I yield back thank you representative begich uh with that Dr kahill you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony thank you chair um man bage and chairman Neils ranking member Cohen chairman Graves ranking member Larson and esteemed members of the subcommittee
▶ 0:46:05on Aviation uh thank you for allowing me to be here today my name is Kathy kahill and I am the director of the Alaska Center for unmanned aircraft systems integration at the University of Alaska Fairbanks and as Congressman beit just pointed out we are one of the top unmend aircraft programs in the United States um we work with Cutting Edge unmanned aircraft systems and counter unmanned aircraft systems technologies required to safely integrate unmanned aircraft into the national airspace system the testimony
▶ 0:46:36I'm providing you today of course is in my professional um based on my professional experience but it is in my personal capacity and it does not represent the views of the University of Alaska unmanned aircraft also known as uavs drones uas have tremendous potential to increase Aviation safety by doing the dirty dull and dangerous missions that put current Pilots of Mann aircraft at risk however as the damaging collision between a small drone
▶ 0:47:06and a super scooper aircraft over the Palisades fire in California and the use of uas in Ukraine in the Middle East by our adversary shows uas can also be used for negative purposes therefore the US needs to lead in the development testing and implementation of safe counterd drone technologies that allow the discrimination between unmanned aircraft authorized unmaned aircraft unauthorized unmanned aircraft and manned aircraft while allowing the safe removal of Rogue
▶ 0:47:37uas any discussion of counter unmaned aircraft systems technologies needs to start with the definition of terms boring yes but important um in title 49 of the US code unmanned aircraft are defined as an aircraft and Associated systems that are operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the aircraft the key piece of information in that definition is that uas are aircraft and have the same protections as manned aircraft
▶ 0:48:07interfering with the flight of an unmanned aircraft violates United States code Title 18 aircraft sabotage act or title 49 aircraft piracy in the same section counter uas Technologies is defined as a system or device capable of lawfully and safely disabling disrupting or seizing control of a uas there are multiple different ways to mitigate or quote take down the Drone but they predominantly fall into two categories one is kinetic kinetic Solutions such as Nets
▶ 0:48:38projectiles lasers cause direct physical damage to the uas non-kinetic solutions such as hacking jamming and spoofing do not directly damage the uas the non-kinetic solutions potentially violate several sections of Title 18 including the pen trap statute the wir tap Act and the computer and Abuse Act and other statutes designed to protect P privacy of US citizens therefore anyone conducting counter uas activities must receive relief from those statutes or face
▶ 0:49:08arrest there are also systems capable of doing Standalone detecting tracking and identifying of an unmaned aircraft several of these types of DTI sensors run a foul of Title 18 as well so the operators of those systems must be granted relief however the biggest challenge of uh doing counter drone Technologies the potential for damage to people and property on the ground and the interference with other Aviation Safety Systems due to the physical and
▶ 0:49:38privacy risks associated with conducting counter uas operations and potential classified nature of the system's responses The Authority for conducting cuas activities has been limited to five agencies Department of Defense Department of energy Department of Homeland Security Department of Justice and at the FAA the recent New Jersey unknown drone scare highlights the fact that there is not a consensus on who should have counter uas authorities state and local officials and many members of the public wanted Stater local
▶ 0:50:08entities to be able to quote shoot the drones in my opinion the risk of unintended consequences from a medication attempt by a state or local entity is too high without the appropriate training and coordination however I would be comfortable with granting state and local authorities the permission to use the DTI systems the number of companies able to develop and test cuas and some DTI systems is limited because it requires the authority to interfere with an aircraft even the company's own aircraft this is driving companies to test
▶ 0:50:38their Technologies in other countries the FAA reauthorization Act of 2924 took the first step towards addressing this problem by including language to allow the seven test sites to support C us testing but they were not granted the authority to mitigate we need to be a leader in US technology we cannot afford to fall behind our adversaries in the implementation of this technology this ends my oral testimony and i' would be happy to answer any questions thank you Dr K Hill uh and now recognize Miss Elman
▶ 0:51:09you are recogniz five minutes five minutes great chairman Nels ranking member Cohen chairman Graves ranking member Larsson and members of the subcommittee on Aviation my name is Lisa Elman I am the executive director of the commercial drone Alliance and a partner at the law firm Hogan levels on behalf of the CDA we share and expressing our condolences to all those affected by last week's tragic Aviation accidents in DC and Philadelphia and we are grateful to the emergency and support Personnel who responded
▶ 0:51:39our Collective safety work must continue in Earnest so I thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts at this important hearing today on counter drone Technologies alongside Chris I also served on the faa's counter drone Aviation rulemaking committee I am honored to inform your work today on pending counter drone legislation and to answer any questions you may have the commercial drone Alliance is an independent nonprofit organization made up of leaders in the commercial drone industry we work with governments to enable safe secure commercial drone
▶ 0:52:10Nationwide we are here today because drone technology has improved greatly over the last decade providing life-saving societal and economic benefits for all Americans communities across the country including in your districts use this technology to respond to n natural natural disasters promote Public Safety inspect critical infrastructure and even deliver food medicine and household goods the Drone industry is projected to contribute billi billions of dollars to the economy over the next decade
▶ 0:52:41yet all technology can be used for good and for bad as we have all seen in the news careless clueless and criminal drones May pose Public Safety and Homeland Security threats the commercial drone industry sees Innovation and security as two sides of the same coin our goal is for the public to trust that commercial drones are being operated safely and to understand the significant value this technology brings to the country while mitigating threats of misuse we therefore encourage policy makers to take two common common
▶ 0:53:11sense steps the first is establishing a foundation for safe and secure drone operations the second is expanding legislative authorities for dealing with drones together these steps will enhance transparency and provide authorities with appropriate tools to address potentially nefarious drone operators while supporting lawful operators and promoting American industry the good news is that we have existing tools to establish a safe and secure Foundation the faa's remote identification rule
▶ 0:53:41for drones took effect this past year similar to cars on the road virtually all drones are now required to broadcast a digital license plate number accessible to the public with a smartphone app but more work must be done to improve compliance with the rule and public public understanding of how it works additionally there are two new FAA rules under development which would improve transparency and security we expect the first rule known as part 108 to enable routine Beyond visual line of sight drone operations
▶ 0:54:11while improving low altitude airspace awareness we expect the second rule known as the 2209 rule to enable the prohibition of unauthorized drone flights over certain sensitive sites unfortunately despite repeated calls by this committee for action and despite the best efforts of many at the FAA congressionally mandated deadlines for both rules have been ignored we hope that Congress will continue to hold agencies accountable for finishing this critical work in addition to establishing this Foundation Congress must expand
▶ 0:54:42existing counter drone legislative authorities current federal criminal laws such as those meant to protect landline telephones actually prevent the use of helpful technology that can increase transparency we applaud this committee's work along Ong with the homeland security and Judiciary committees in drafting HR 8610 we thank the committee for engaging with stakeholders to continue to improve this legislation which would make important changes to to today's status quo we urge both Chambers to work together to pass legislation
▶ 0:55:12and properly resourced federal agencies to enact it as soon as possible we believe the best version of a final bill should include first a way for appropriately trained private sector and law enforcement entities to use Advanced detection capability second a robust mitigation pilot program Li limited to flight restricted areas and third streamlined inter agency approval processes with accountability mechanisms together let's make 2025 the year of drone Innovation transparency and security
▶ 0:55:43the opportunity cost of inaction grows as the gap between technology and policy widens Congress can enable the benefits of drone technology while protecting citizens from Rogue actors the commercial drone Alliance appre appreciates the opportunity to appear before you and we look forward to continued collaboration to ensure America's Global Leadership in advanced Aviation thank you and I look forward to answering your questions uh thank you Miss Elman uh Mr mcclaflin you are now recognized for five minutes chairman Nells ranking
▶ 0:56:13member Cohen and members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me to this hearing I'd like to start by echoing my peers and expressing my deepest condolences to the families and loved ones affected by the traffic tragic aircraft accidents last week these heartbreaking events underscore the critical importance of ensuring the safety of our national airspace as we focus on the challenges posed by unmanned aircraft systems we are reminded of the constant diligence required to keep our skies safe
▶ 0:56:44my name is Chris mclin I'm the Executive Vice President of Operations for the Dallas Fort Worth International Airport the third busiest airport in the world handling over 80 million passengers annually I look forward to sharing dfw's perspective on countering unmanned aircraft systems I'm particularly grateful to testify in today's hearing because Aviation and airport security has been my career-long passion recently I had the opportunity to serve on the faa's uas detection and mitigation systems Aviation rulemaking
▶ 0:57:14committee where I co-chaired a working group on operational requirements for uas detection and mitigation systems the arcs report highlighted that airports face unique challenges with drone threats due to the dynamic nature of airport environments unlike other critical infrastructure airports must manage airspace in real time ensuring drone operations don't disrupt essential commercial operations and at the same time the counter uas efforts don't unintentionally jeopardize
▶ 0:57:45the same airports like DFW manage High volumes of aircraft and an unauthorized drone in our airspace can introduce catastrophic safety risks to passengers and crew to be clear though DFW is not anti-drone while unauthorized drone activity presents significant risk authorized drones can serve invaluable tools for airports by enhancing operational safety efficiency and Innovations their thoughtful integration holds the potential to create a
▶ 0:58:15safe and secure environment offering numerous benefits while addressing risks this is why ensuring safety while supporting uas integration in an evolving airspace is vital at DFW drone detection has served as a critical first step in addressing uas presence we've partnered with TSA on detection since 2017 we've piloted a second system through an FAA approved process and we intend to install a permanent solution again with FAA
▶ 0:58:46approval our our detection system has been effective identifying thousands of legitimate flights in our five mile radius annually and flat in about 150 that were operated inappropriately telling the difference can be difficult because airports lack independent access to FAA data on authorized drones better data sharing would enhance airport safety that said information is not always enough in extreme situations
▶ 0:59:16mitigation is important for airports and right now that Authority is limited to certain federal agencies whose physical Presence at airports is insufficient ient state and local law enforcement agencies with Advanced capabilities are better positioned physically to respond to drone incidents near airports with proper Authority safety tested technology advanced training and strict Federal oversight they could supplement Federal efforts
▶ 0:59:46enhancing response times and improving coordination similar models for Success exist today in aviation and have been effective for decades at DFW for example our police department has a close working relationship with our federal Partners who provide training guidance and oversight for our K9 teams and EOD team their oversight and training is invaluable and our officer's ability to respond to incidents relieves an otherwise heavy burden on federal resources
▶ 1:00:17again let me be emphatic when it comes to drones the federal government is best positioned to lead the detection and mitigation effort willing airports can play Brad a role though and support the federal governments through pilot programs that allow them to acquire and use mitigation systems tailor to their unique circumstances DFW is committed to working with Congress and our federal Partners to develop counter us strategies that meet the needs of all airports and to that point we strongly believe
▶ 1:00:47that the acquisition and deployment of any uas in detection and mitigation system should remain optional for airports recognizing each 's uniqueness in terms of size traffic financial resources and their overall impact to the nas thank you for the opportunity to testify today I'm confident that with your leadership and the collaboration of all stakeholders we can counter uas threats while supporting the growth of the commercial drone industry be happy to take any questions
▶ 1:01:18thank you Mr mclin uh thank you all for your testimony I ask unes sent the enter into the record a letter from the American correction Association on February 3rd 2025 and a letter from the association of uncrewed Vehicle Systems International on February 6 2025 without objection so ordered we will now turn to questions from the panel I will recognize myself for five minutes for for questions uh I'd like to start with you miss Elman uh in your written testimony
▶ 1:01:48we talk about uh uh you say in your testim despite calls by this committee for Action Congressional mandated deadlines have been ignored at the expense of the Drone industry and the American public I think you were referring to the Beyond visual line of sight as well as a rule 2000009 which has been out there since 2016 can you explain a little bit why why is the FAA uh ignoring us yeah absolutely it's a great question chairman Nells and thank you uh part 108 which would
▶ 1:02:18broadly enable Beyond visual on site as well as increased transparency in the airspace incentivized electronic conspicuity can go a really long way has been you know under development for several years now um section 2209 is kind of a on the other side of the coin focusing on security would requires the FAA to establish a process by which private sector entities c um fixed site facilities critical infrastructure facilities are able to prohibit or limit drone operations unauthorized drone
▶ 1:02:48operations over their property um we're broadly in support of these two rules they should move forward immediately together we don't exactly know why they've been held up um but we see this as a and and just to be clear the FAA has done a lot of good work here they've been held up at kind of higher levels in the in agency so we um see this as a great opportunity for the Trump Administration these are two rules that are ready to go that can really help here and uh you know we hope to see them move forward right away thank you uh Mr mofin given your knowledge on counter uas systems how do you view
▶ 1:03:18the current process of multi- agency coordination needed in the event that mitigation of an aircraft is required well so we're grateful for our current relationships with both our federal and our local Partners uh being successful at an airport when it comes to Safety and Security really requires a partnership I think the single biggest thing in the current construct that could could make our response times better would be to give persistent authority to those agencies that currently have the ability to mitigate under circum circum
▶ 1:03:48certain circumstances but require individual approval each time they do that I'm told by people that I know and trust that that could take days to seek to get that approval we need that approval in minutes not days and and we should be able to address that right in this committee you agree I believe so yes you know I I I had an opportunity obviously Dallas Fort Worth I'm from Texas I I had an opportunity to go visit an airport in the state of Wisconsin and they were showing me everything there DHS was showing me the screens and I said okay so
▶ 1:04:18they have the ability to to detect the Drone obviously they showed the the airspace and and so they can identify they can detect it but they have no way of of of getting that drone out of that res restricted airspace in a in a timely and I would say an efficient manner they just don't have the ability to do it I said why in the hell don't you have the ability to do it I think Miss Elman you talked about or maybe it was Miss kahill about these certain agencies that have the ability to do it Department of energy DOD DHS
▶ 1:04:49doj I think Coast Guard with underneath the uh Department of Homeland Security I said well so these drones can fly into these restricted airplanes over airports and we have to just say well we'll we'll get to it when we can I found that somewhat shocking and I think the American public that are flying aircraft around you know on these airplanes would be appalled to think that if some bad actor nefarious in activity
▶ 1:05:19and and that drone flies into that restricted airspace that we don't have the ability ability with mitigation yes we do uh Mr mlin have the ability to tell Air Traffic Control you know divert fly around get the hell out of the area and then so as as I continue to research this and then I'm going to show you a prototype of a device I want to scare anybody here so please it's not working it's not so does everybody know and maybe the new members in the committee does everybody know this
▶ 1:05:49thing here you know this is about $50,000 and this device here here is called a d drone Defender it sends a a radio frequency and a GPS Jammer that's what it does so if a drone is flying into that airport restricted space an operator can put the crosshairs on that drone shoot that radio frequency and it Returns the Drone back to where it took off now why in the hell don't we have
▶ 1:06:19these at our airports I was assured by the manufacturer and there are others that this will not interfere with airplanes it won't interfere it won't have any problem with airplanes taking off and Landing I says if you want to protect the American people these things should be deployed at our nation's airports now I like the federal government what we do is we want to kick the can down the road we just have more studies that's what we do in America well let's study this study that we've been to studying things since 2016 and haven't done a damn thing
▶ 1:06:50right so I'm done with all the studying and let's come up with a a a Sol solution to the problem to address aircraft drones that are flying in restricted airspace that don't belong there because eventually one day one of these Bad actors will take one of those drones and commit a terrorist attack and it's going to happen on our airline industry and we should be better than that don't tell me it's about money because this thing cost about 50,000 $50,000
▶ 1:07:20how much our lives worth so the technology is there folks the technology is is there you just think that we as Congress and the FAA could do better to make sure that we address the issue with drones because they're they're by the thousands if not Millions you're going to see more and more of them operators are a little they they don't necessarily understand rules or they get a little confused every once in a while but to have these things flying in UN in restricted airspace is going to be a problem
▶ 1:07:50whether it's the Super Bowl coming up on sender on Sunday or whether it's in in airports across our country with that I yield back I now recognize the ranking member Cohen for 5 minutes thank you Mr chair that's pretty impressive piece I think every Congress person should have one of those too uh Mr mlin I was in Dallas Fort Worth last week and I seems like it's grown even since the last time I was there it's gigantic it's big airport well run though thank you you testified that
▶ 1:08:20the Dallas for Worth airport has detected more than 5,000 drones in its airspace annually and 150 operating inappropriately given this reality what additional tools or authorities to airports like yours need better respond to unauthorized drone activity besides the so to be clear we've identified about 5,000 that that does not mean that's the total universe that's that's been in our area because all technology has limitations and so what airports need first and foremost is the ability to
▶ 1:08:50continue planning with our state and local Partners through tabletop exercises and response protoc OLS right now our current technology allows us to detect many drones it allows us to track those and it allows us then to identify in some cases uh the the pilots what is would be really helpful would be better technology to detect track and identify the drones because that helps us classify whether we're dealing with a threat or someone who may be caress or someone who may be clueless
▶ 1:09:21you say to identify them I think was Miss Elman said somebody that they have licens license plates miss kahill somebody said it license plates you can detect yes you want sure so there's a remote ID rule that went into effect last year and virtually all drones flying in the National airspace are now required to be broadcasting essentially a digital drone license plate that identifies them in the airspace so if they're doing that what do you need Mr mlin so not again not all technology is
▶ 1:09:51created equal we need highly effective technology that allows us to reliably and quickly again detect track and identify the individuals most cases of the 150 that I that I talked about in almost every single one of those cases we can have a casual conversation with law enforcement either our own or the jurisdiction of record and that individual understands better what they did wrong and they won't do it again in the future in a couple of cases so of the of the ones that I've talked about we have had a couple that that truly were criminal in
▶ 1:10:21nature and in those cases and and to the point that chairman Nells brought up we would like to have mitigation capability but I would point out again and as Dr kahill indicated there are kinetic forms and non-kinetic forms of mitigation and we believe in the airport environment that non-kinetic mitigation is the safer route because for us the safety of aircraft will always be our number one priority you said in your statement and I might not have interpreted it correctly and it's entirely uh that
▶ 1:10:52despite our individual decision and as a final point we strongly believe that the acquisition and deployment of any uas detection and mitigation system should remain optional for airports recognizing variations in size and I understand the difference in sizes what Dallas needs you might not need in some Tiny Town but but do you not think there should be some some minimal standards or the federal government should have some type of a requirement that there be some type of system to to detect what the drones flying over the there's as you know over 450 commercial airports in this
▶ 1:11:22country uh in your all's jurisdictions there's you know numbers from very very small to medium siiz to very very large and and having been in the airport world for a long time I believe that all airports have very very different capabilities and we've got to recognize that the thing that we think about most in airports is that first and foremost we want to protect the airspace and the best way to do that is to deconflict manned aircraft crude aircraft that are entering or exiting our airspace once those aircraft have been safely removed
▶ 1:11:52then there's a variety of mechanisms that we can use to mitigate the Drone one of them in a very small airport could be to wait in a very large airport that has an impact on the overall Nas we can't afford to wait and we've got to take action more quickly thank you sir um Miss Elman you you you talked about the New Jersey drone crisis misinformation uh was we talked about it in the Drone activities has quickly it spread you mentioned the need for public education campaign to distinguish between legal drone and
▶ 1:12:22actual security threats what type of campaign do you think it should include and who should lead it yeah it's a great question thank you so much um on so this digital drone license plate requirement the remote ID rule which I referenced uh the intent of it is very laudatory it's transparency in the airspace we should know what's flying in the airspace uh the commercial drone industry strongly supports the intent of the rule however compliance with the rule could be stronger there needs to be um but also you know
▶ 1:12:52what we saw you were referencing that you know 5,00 in complaints to the federal government about drones flying in New Jersey when I as a member of the public pick up my cell phone to take a grainy cell phone video of something flying in the air what I really should do first is actually open up an app on my smartphone with a remote identification app to see if I can identify the Drone license plate right there's a lot of information out there that if a drone operator is following the rules and operating in compliance with remote identification rule you can kind of assume that they
▶ 1:13:22they're at least understanding the fa rules um and you can have access to that license plate and then if there is an issue with a drone you can actually refer law enforcement to that drone license plate just like a car on the road but because uh the public doesn't really understand how to receive that information the commercial drone Alliance and we'd be H I think there's a role for the federal government here should embark on a public education campaign to ensure that we're able to use all of the tools that are at our disposal thank you and you back the balance my time
▶ 1:13:53thank you ranking member Cohen I now Rec recognize Mr Massie thank you Mr chairman um Dr kahill you mentioned DTI technologies that are available for identifying tracking drones can you describe that technology in a little more detail for us I'd be happy to so detection tracking and identification kind of comes in a a multitude of different flavors um you can do something like acoustic where you basically listen to where the Drone is and you triangulate where it is from a series of sensors
▶ 1:14:24you can do the same thing with looking at the RF U emissions of the Drone and its operator so you actually can triangulate where the Drone is and in some cases you can triangulate where the operator is and send law enforcement to go um intercept there are also cameras Radars a multitude of other different ways that you can identify that there is something in the airspace and monitor how it is moving um in most of those cases as
▶ 1:14:54long as you don't break into the radio frequencies and read the packets you can stay clear of Title 18 but if you actually break in and determine who it is ETC outside of that remote ID license plate um then you run a foul with the pen trap wire tap Etc are there any other laws that are getting in the way or maybe they're not getting in the way maybe those are good laws but are there any other laws that um impede these Technologies to track drones
▶ 1:15:24um Miss Elman I'll ask you that question yeah sure no uh thank you kman it's a great question there's actually inter agency guidance from August of 2020 that literally goes through line by line every single law that would that could potentially impede the use of counter drone Technologies both detection and mitigation we can get you that document that's the best resource but um everything from um laws that are meant to protect against hacking landline telephones or Computer Fraud and Abuse or uh you know sabotaging
▶ 1:15:54an aircraft could potentially apply various Title 18 and title 49 Provisions um Mr mlen what types of Technologies do you use at your airport to detect and track and identify drones so right now as I said we've been using one technology in conjunction with TSA for about six years uh and then we piloted another one these are passive systems uh that allow us to identify uh uas in our airspace and identify the location of the pilot so that we can follow up
▶ 1:16:25with them via a conversation and I know the air traffic controllers have a very difficult job and we don't want to distract them from the things that they're tracking right now how do integrate those uh warnings and trackingsm we're always a phone call
▶ 1:16:55away that's the way that the airport Control Center and the FAA towers work we're always in in in connection we're we're governed by an FAA approved uh counter uas policy that's been in place for several years and Paramount in that policy is active communication when there isn't a threat so quarterly we get together with the FAA with our Airlines with our airport stakeholders we talk to each other we compare notes and we make sure that we always have those communication connections uh set up and available in the event of an actual
▶ 1:17:25uas threat the first thing we do is determine whether that threat is credible whether that threat is imminent and whether it's going to affect our actual airspace as opposed to just our sort of our property boundaries and when we think that there's an actual threat we coordinate directly with the FAA tower now many times there you know we see visual sightings too through the FAA Tower so sometimes that communication comes to us from the FAA uh when we don't see something detected on our system and and you mentioned that most
▶ 1:17:55of the ones that you've identified and tracked back to the operator haven't resulted in civil or criminal penalties it's either uh somebody who doesn't understand that shouldn't be doing it they need talk to by law enforcement but I want to ask all three of you are there's what are the civil and criminal penalties Dr kahill um for operating in the airspace of of a airport so in terms of the legal um implications there are a number of different rules rules um
▶ 1:18:26in terms of you know the violating the airspace you're you can be interfer basically you're collecting information illegally in some of these cases in terms of in restricted airspace Etc um I would look to miss Elman to give you the best overall view of what the all the legal ramifications are but if you are operating a drone over an airport you are interfering with the operations of that airport you are interfering with aircraft ability to operate
▶ 1:18:56and so there are a lot of statutes associated with that particular thing so it would be a case where you could send law enforcement to that person and charge them I'm pretty much out of time but since she referred to you Miss Elman can you tell us what penalties are yes sure so it it frankly depends on kind of what the rule is that's being violated or what the laws that been violated you can't operate recklessly you can't endanger the public you can't be violating restricted airspace so I'd be happy
▶ 1:19:27to follow up with you on particular criminal penalties that are appropriate for whatever you know types of situations you're worried about thank you I yield back Mr Larsson you're recognized for five minutes thank you um Dr kahill uh the 24 fa authorization Bill prohibits The Dot from operating and procuring um drones or Associated elements or counter USA systems manufactured by a covered foreign entity largely focus on China that's right
▶ 1:19:57we provided uh collectively an exemption for testing and evaluating of uas detection and mitigation system so can you explain the importance of why a research facility like yourself needs to test um drones that we have uh that we have otherwise banned why it's important for the R&D to get done on this um chairman ranking member Larson merely ranking member hey sorry it's a long trip from Alaska um in terms of the the fa
▶ 1:20:28reauthorization the reason we need to be able to test covered drones is that is a large portion of the Drone market so if you are talking for example a DJI aircraft that is what most people are going to go pick up at their Costco and if you don't test the signatures of those particular systems we can't tune the counter drone systems to look for them and so a lot of the cases are you want to test the different aircraft command and control frequencies you want to hear what its Acoustics
▶ 1:20:58are you want to characterize what that aircraft is so that when you encounter those signatures you can identify what it is so that exemption to allow the test sites to purchase covered drones in order to do counter drone testing is very important for testing these systems and ensuring that they will be able to respond to what is commonly seen in the atmosphere yeah um thanks um are you uh
▶ 1:21:28some of these questions I have might be uh I don't know if you can answer them uh in public or if you're prot or if if the answers are going to be protected but um what are your thoughts on the use of generally of AI technology and and autonomous use of drones and how are you how do you test against against those versus uh you know ones being literally controlled by a handheld versus one that's programmed so um terms of how we respond to those with something that has been
▶ 1:21:59pre-programmed um it is a little bit more challenging of course to find out who the operator is I mean this is something where you can set it and forget it um so you could send it off and then you could leave where the the area is so that makes it a little trickier to determine who may potentially be doing the operations if it is something where it is in constant communication with the operator then that gives us the opportunity to detect where the the operator is and to send law enforcement to go talk to the
▶ 1:22:29person see if they're careless clueless or criminal um so there is a difference in how we approach them dep depending on how they are operating if they're operating remote ID it's easy to determine who they are and that makes it easy unfortunately if I was going to be a bad actor I would turn off remote ID I would cover up the lights and I would make it as quiet as possible and fly in a weir pattern so in those cases that the Technologies are
▶ 1:22:59are far more challenged in terms of can you determine if it's real or if it's a false a false alarm so there are a lot of challenges on that front yeah thanks M Helman I happen to think that 8610 is the perfect bill um it needs no changes at all think have generally the agreement of two other committees uh Judiciary and Homeland Security as well as ours I understand your uh the commercial Jour Alliance has other some other and we negotiated those differences but I think for our edification could you
▶ 1:23:29just remind us of some of the changes that you wanted to see that weren't in included uh in last year's version of the bill absolutely R member lson and first of all thank you to your yourself and your staff and the whole committee for working with us over the last year the bill is continuing to be improved and we we love to see that so we appreciate it we do think that there are some additional improvements that could be made I'd highlight just three in particular uh the first is that um in the era of remote ID from our from our point
▶ 1:23:59of view detection technology is is very uncontroversial so we believe that states and localities should have broad access to detection technology as well as appropriately train private sector entities and so that's one change that we would ask for um the second is we want to ensure the success of the pilot program and so you need to be able to have as many Geographic diverse and type different types of environments that are included so we would but we also appreciate the house bills focus and prioritization of
▶ 1:24:29flight restricted areas so we would ask for higher numbers but keep it within flight restricted areas and finally there are inter agency processes that are set up through your legislation um those you know the inter agency collaboration is of course key uh we want to ensure that they're not bogged down by red tape and bureaucracy and that they're safety focused and that there are deadlines and accountability mechanisms included in those processes to ensure that processes move forward and these these programs are able to be implemented as quickly as possible that's helpful that's helpful
▶ 1:25:00thank you and Y back Mr chair gentan yields uh Mr Perry You're recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman I'll begin by just acknowledging the two tragic accidents occurring here and in my home state of Pennsylvania and I think they both underscore how delicate system is and and just offer uh my prayers and thoughts for the families that grieve the loss of their loved ones at this moment our work here is important uh Mr
▶ 1:25:30mcglaughlin your testimony highlights you know the threats but also the benefits uh and so like much of what we deal with and common society today is is a balancing act right and so now as I understand it you Dallas Fort Worth has developed their own uh drone detection system can you kind of talk us through the approval process with the FAA and what we might be able to do here on
▶ 1:26:00this committee to assist other airports and then I have some other questions but just that what's that approval process like yes sir and to be clear we haven't developed our own we we've we've Ed we've utilized one through a TSA uh existing contract and then we ran a pilot program that was under the fa approved process and that's the standard uh referred to as the 7460 fa approval process that just ensures that things that we install
▶ 1:26:30in our airport are safe around aircraft right and and so you're basically saying with that then it comes as a preapproved package for utilization because you got it through the agency or with the agency's blessing so that's pretty could I say off the shelf any airport that can afford it could could purchase it so I would say in speaking with my peers that yes on the one hand it's it's off the shelf and I'll tell you the approval process was was
▶ 1:27:01actually very very quick but I would say that across our community I don't know that it's widely understood uh H how relatively easy it is for systems that have been deemed to be safe in an airport environment so so do you think that airports just aren't aware that it's available or is it an affordability issue if you've got a D Force Dallas for where is a pretty large airport but there are a lot of smaller ones so is it is it a that they're unaware that
▶ 1:27:31they don't have the problem or it's unaffordable or a combination of all three I think it's a combination of many factors um keep in mind that any system that you purchase and install you then also have to operate and airports often most airports operate at least 16 hours a day even small ones operate 16 hours a day many like mine operate 247 um those systems do require both from a detection perspective you've got to have someone who can who can see the blip when it happens and if we were to get into mitigation you have to
▶ 1:28:01have people that can respond so cost is an issue for airports certainly but it's always a balancing act again for an airport like mine with you know seven runways and 27 square miles in the center of the nas it's in our best interest to make sure that we can keep the Airfield running how how many how many what's the Personnel utilization for your system how many how many many folks are dedicated to working right so again candidly for an airport like DFW it's we we require no net new heads
▶ 1:28:31to do this work because we have a standing team that's constantly monitoring the operation if I was in charge of a rural small airport I might have to add staff to be able to monitor that equipment 247 okay uh Miss Elman um you know it's like Groundhog Day to me here we've been at this for at least 10 years now right the FAA seems to for whatever reason blow through the deadlines over and over again um and I think
▶ 1:29:01it does hinder the Drone industry in the United States of America with being competitive with foreign actors can you kind of descri describe um how the faa's reluctance or delays lags affect the industry and then something you said regarding uh Mr larsson's questioning pique my interest where you said everybody should have access to the remote ID or essentially and I'm just thinking about that
▶ 1:29:31what if you have a large tractor ground and I don't but what if you do and you privately want to fly your uas to look at your cattle or enjoy fly your uas if that's something you do who who's who else's business should that be why does anybody why should anybody else care and I mean there's a there are privacy concerns on both sides of this issue absolutely so I'll take your questions in order Congressman um so first with regard to delays on the rulemaking
▶ 1:30:02um it is a source of frustration for the community there are a few rules that we've talked about today part 108 which would enable you know scale Beyond visual on a site for commercial compliant uh authorized drone users that would provide a normalized rule set that would also help because the more normalized and transparent rule set that we have here in the United States the more people know what the rules are and the more there's compliance and the more people can identify outliers right so that's also important um the 2209
▶ 1:30:33Ru making has been outstanding since literally 2016 Congress mandated this rule we're now almost a decade later we still don't have it um so you know the fa has actually done some good work getting the rules developed they stalled in the inter agency process during the last Administration and we would urge the Trump Administration to really take these and run with see this is a really great opportunity to you know the Trump Administration has a really great ground record of during the first term in terms of his drone agenda there
▶ 1:31:03was um good progress that was made including around drone Innovation and drone security and we would hope to see that carried forward this term um we're happy to work with the administration on that with regards to your second question um around privacy issues you know certainly that is that is a a very good question um and that's that's one of the reasons why we appreciate your uh committees legislation's Focus where there are flight restricted areas so commercial drone operators no they shouldn't be flying there anyways this is not about we don't have a privacy
▶ 1:31:33right to fly in Flight restricted areas such as near airports for example or at you know crowded sports stadiums which are covered by a temporary flight restriction or at nuclear facilities and so um that there are privacy questions but they're much um mitigated in in sorry mitigated in terms of flight restricted areas Miss Elman I'm going to ask uh you respond to the third question to Mr Perry in writing time expired uh Miss Davids from Kansas you are recognized thank you chairman uh and
▶ 1:32:03thank you to you and the ranking member uh for holding this hearing today uh thank you to our Witnesses for taking the time uh to to be here uh first I I also want to uh just take a moment to acknowledge the uh the tragedies I know Mr Perry also um mentioned this so many of us have uh both in Pennsylvania and then of course the plane Collis that occurred last week departing from my home state of Kansas uh you know we have a pretty close-knit
▶ 1:32:34State and tragedies like this hit every single um Canen uh so my my heart is um uh breaking for the families and everybody who's been impacted um uh across the uh the NTSB you've already heard this is is conducting their investigation I'm I'm confident that our subcommittee is going to work together uh to take the necessary steps to prevent tragedies like that from happening again um and you know
▶ 1:33:04as uh I hope folks know the state of Kansas is also fortunate to have a very strong history of Aviation uh we're home to hundreds of airports of all sizes uh I'm I am personally positioned in the uh Kansas City area so I get to fly in and out of uh MCI or KCI depending on who you ask uh where chairman Graves um represents of course I'm biased I feel like we've got the most awesome airport in the country um
▶ 1:33:35but one of the questions that's Arisen in my time on this committee uh is the level of um and various components of our national airspace and the coordination the communication we're hearing about that um a lot today as well and as it relates to UAV the UA environment uh and the diffus proliferation of commercial and personal drones um that sort of communication and coordination uh is just becoming increasingly
▶ 1:34:05important uh I I do want to try to get us a little bit more context about how our federal how the federal partners are working with the stakeholders um and what what more can be done to improve those channels of coordination and communication and uh Mr Perry kind of started to hit on this but uh Mr mcclin I I know that since 2017 DFW has um partnered with the TSA uh on drone detection and again we we heard um some of the In The Weeds about
▶ 1:34:35that but I'm I'm curious if you can help um uh everyone understand the kind of larger context the uh communication you kind of mentioned the smoothness of uh um of the integration of the system but can you talk a little bit about uh where we can improve improve that and or um what what's going really
▶ 1:35:06well so we can see if we can apply that to other things I know we've heard um you know whether it's FAA TSA um and the way you all work together thank you for the question and and I've sort of talked about this a couple times today and and it maybe sounds simplistic but it's such an important part of what we do in commercial Aviation I always tell people we're members of Congress assume we know nothing and and and help make sure that we don't miss the things that as you say might seem basic but when if we're in
▶ 1:35:36the weeds we might miss that so I would love to hear from you about that so local Partnerships are really really important and we believe that if you practice well you'll play well when it matters so table Toops full scale exercises doing the things together TSA FAA Airlines airport CBP all of our partners working in in conjunction every 3 years the FAA mandates that every airport airport do what's called a tri anual exercise a fullscale exercise
▶ 1:36:06that simulates a real crash and a real response to that so not entirely drone related but we just had ours last year we had 26 different local agencies participate in that fullscale response and that kind of work that kind of relationship that's built year over-ear decade over decade is a critical factor in keeping the National Air airspace safe drones are a relatively new issue for us in commercial Aviation but attacking it together as a community is our best approach to
▶ 1:36:36keep us safe can can uh and May and I don't want to take up um more time than I'm allotted here but uh I'd love to continue the conversation and see whether or not whether it's from the FAA perspective or TSA perspective if there are barriers or things that might slow that process or ability to do that down because you're trying to work with the federal Partners if that makes sense sure as I said ear I mean I think the one of the biggest barriers that we could face in the event of of a
▶ 1:37:06long attack a persistent attack against an airport the single biggest barrier is realtime Authority for those agencies that have the authority to mitigate okay right now they don't have that standing persistent Authority and that would be a change that would be really important thank you I yield back Chan lady yields I now recognize Mr burett for five minutes thank you Mr chairman members um thank You' all for being here miss Elman uh I have a question about the legality of
▶ 1:37:37laws in place that we're allowed to knock these things down I'm from Tennessee I was on I I understand it's a 12mon season in Tennessee and they taste a whole lot like chicken so I was wondering what can be done about drones can we knock them down can you shoot them down if they're in your airspace if you're in an area that allows gunfire um thank you for that question congressman and the answer is no um first there's all kinds of safety concerns when you're just shooting guns into the sky there are other manned aircraft there so there are safety concerns
▶ 1:38:08um which this committee would appreciate but also it's it's illegal a drone is considered an aircraft under the law and so by shooting down a drone you're shooting down an aircraft what are the responsibilities if they're using to spy on folks you know I've I've seen them flying over pools where I'm sure folks are frolicking and probably not like to have their pictures taken well certainly privac certainly technology neutral privacy laws and rules would continue to apply so if you're stalking someone with a drone you're still
▶ 1:38:38stalking them right if you're intrusion upon seclusion all of the various uh privacy laws and rules that you could think of would apply to the use of drones um just as it would apply to any other technology okay thank you uh Mr mclin um can you tell more about the Dallas Fort Worth's International detection system and what is your procedure when you detect a drone operating inappropriately and are these private citizens oper operating these unauthorized drones or do you know a foreign entities operating around
▶ 1:39:08your airport so I'm I didn't completely hear that the last uh sentence of your question are they are private citizens operating these unauthorized drones or do you know of foreign entities operating around your area report so I'm not aware of any foreign entities operating around my airport uh again we've seen a limited number of unauthorized drone uses in restricted space um when we see those drones we uh first uh try to identify
▶ 1:39:39the location of the pilot we'll send our law enforcement team to uh interview that pilot if that location is outside of our jurisdiction but still inside our restricted space we'll coordinate with other local departments to have that conversation with the individual uh to an earlier question in the state of Texas uh knowingly operating a drone in an unauthorized air space is a Class B Min uh misdemeanor in the state of Texas so we can take local criminal action in those rare and unique circum
▶ 1:40:09that's after the fact though I mean that they're up there causing you're just to make a lot of discomfort for a lot of customers that are going to have to fly their planes elsewhere you're not going to knock them down correct well sir I would say you know where they're from even in the limited occasions where we have seen these 150 instances against thousands of appropriate instances we find that a that a a casual conversation with the pilot uh uh educates
▶ 1:40:39them and allows them to to enjoy the Drone they've purchased in a way that's safe that doesn't impact the Nas and doesn't impact their ability to use the the tool that they've they've purchased president Trump informed us the drones were authorized for by the Federal Aviation Administration for research and various other reasons did it benefit other parts of the government when Biden's Federal Aviation Administration acted in secrecy I don't believe I can
▶ 1:41:10answer that question okay can Congress do you think Congress could ensure the agency responsible for managing these drones would be transparent with other government bodies about these sorts of risks in the future sir thank you I didn't understand the the the first question yeah I absolutely believe that that transparency is the best way for us to again gain gain a common uh platform a common understanding of what's happening okay it might be my accent I'm from Tennessee I'm the only person up here who does not
▶ 1:41:40speak with an accent so I think it's my ear I apologize it's all right um Dr kahill do you have any concerns regarding counter unmanned aircraft systems and are these systems safer than others um so Congressman I do have some concerns about some of the systems they do need to be tested before they are implemented uh some of the early studies we've seen show that you can end up with cases where for example a radar May produce frequencies in
▶ 1:42:10in loes off to the side that could interfere with things they don't expect so if you go through a rigorous testing process and the FAA is working on setting that up and being able to standardize that you should be able to determine which ones are safe to operate in which environments okay and move it forward small drone recently collided with a a crew Airline performing a firefighting mission in California could the use of counter drone technology possibly have prevented that and what technology
▶ 1:42:40could a man aircraft have on board if they do detect the Drone operations in their vicinity um Congressman in terms of the super scooper incident in in California that was a DJI mini I believe that was so it was under 250 gram so it is not required to be registered um it was operating inside a TFR a temporary flight restriction so it was operating illegally and uh so in terms of a counter drone in that particular case it could have been appropriate
▶ 1:43:11because nobody should be flying in a TFR and you shouldn't have anybody on the ground in the wild fire that you don't know where they are so in that case it should have been safe but the onboard detection of that small system the aircraft would have no way of knowing that there was a drone in that location thank you I thank you Mr chairman I will say for the record that um with your presentation I I think it's it would behoove us to get a better grip on this these rules and regulations are great until one of these things
▶ 1:43:41flies into sucks into a jet aircraft engine and one of and we lose precious lives so um I hope we'd get aggressive with these have the ability to knock these things down thank thank you thank you sir I recognize Mr Johnson for five minutes thank you uh Mr uh chairman for uh convening this very important hearing along with uh the um ranking member uh I want to extend my gratitude to the witnesses today for appearing
▶ 1:44:11for your testimony and the tragic tragic events of the last few days have left communities in America and the aviation industry in mourning and my heart goes out to to the families and friends grappling with such unimaginable grief we also owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to our First Responders the firefighters paramedics law enforcement and other Personnel who work tirelessly and diligently in this time of Crisis
▶ 1:44:41and I want to thank all involved in these efforts for their service the idea of readily available complex task drones was once science fiction now their reality presents A new challenge that demands we strengthen our ability to counteract their misuse I'm not talking about mere nuisances I'm talking about the potential for drones to be weaponized used for surveillance and deployed against our
▶ 1:45:12critical infrastructure I wish this this were not a reality but we have seen in reports and heard the warnings the threat is real Americans deserve to know that these powerful Technologies are being used responsibly and now uh just uh days ago uh Elon Musk and Donald Trump issued their fork in the road memo to
▶ 1:45:422 million federal employees including uh FAA employees demanding that they either retire or look forward to being uh you know perhaps uh reclassified or their jobs uh terminated um now given the specialized knowledge required for drone safety oversight what challenges does the fork in the road
▶ 1:46:12memo posed to the FAA as it seeks to first of all retain current employees who are experienced and effective in the integration of uh drones into our airspace and what challenges does it pose to attracting new uh Talent uh to the FAA to work and I'll ask you that question Miss Elman sure
▶ 1:46:42thank you so much Congressman I appreciate the question collaboration between the FAA and the Drone industry is absolutely key um and it's something it's it's actually there's a lot of ongoing work done behind the scenes right now just in order I'm talking I'm talking in terms of the impact of the uh of the fork in the road memo what impact does it have on the ability of the FAA to do its work well we certainly think it's critical that the FAA
▶ 1:47:13has the necessary staff resources to be so so when you're trying when you actually off offering money to experience iced employees at the FAA and threats to them at the same time to leave your job resign um does that hollow out those who are in position to help the FAA fulfill its Mission and keep us safe I will just say in my experience the
▶ 1:47:43professionals I've worked with at the FAA are very professional they have specialized expertise as you say and so it's they they are actually being terrorized right now are they not I I can't speak to their state of mind but I I do know that it's wouldn't it wouldn't it terrorize you if you had to go to work facing the fact that you don't know whether or not you should uh re resign or whether or not you should stick it out hoping for the best whether or not you
▶ 1:48:13should take that eight months of uh pay and and leave the job go get another job uh make the make the money you were making on the old job plus the new job forget all about the responsibilities that you were U implementing on your old job just you know it's better for you and your family to have some some um predictability about your future doesn't this memo impact those FAA
▶ 1:48:43employees adversely you know I can't speak particular to the memo but I for for you if you were an FAA employee wouldn't you be adversely impacted I I can imagine that it would raise a lot of questions yeah and Dr kill uh what do you have to add on that um in the people I work with in the FAA are professionals and my concern with the fork in the mode Road memo is that you may indiscriminately
▶ 1:49:14be taking out people who have long careers and expertise in an area and not have and have it be disproportionately some of the people with the specialized um the concern is of course how you would address it in such a way to maintain the level of expertise needed to deal with these issues and to be honest as an outside Observer I am a little concerned about what the impact may be on our work going forward if those people
▶ 1:49:44are no longer in those positions thank you and with that I Y back now recognize Mr Owens for five minutes thank you Mr chair and ranking member uh for holding this very very important meeting and hearing uh we stand at a very pittiful moment the decisions we make today have lasting consequences not only for Aviation but every sector of our economy Transportation um agriculture Wildfire response construction
▶ 1:50:14rail law enforcement Insurance Recreation and Retail uh these and other Industries are very much directly imp impacted by how this committee regulates uh UA uas technology the states couldn't be any higher uh China is rapidly outpacing us into drone industry threatening both our e economic leadership and National Security and as we pointed out today uh we have some urgent challenges ahead of us uh and our window is very narrow this committee has responsibility to lead the complexity of this
▶ 1:50:44issue is evident last year's counter USA uas Authority security safety and re reauthorization act involved three committees which failed to to become law yet remain a top priority this year I have full confidence in this uh committee to come up with a bipartisan solution and address the growth of this in this technology uh Dr kahill uh your testimony underscored the immense potential of uas technology to enhance the quality of life in rural and isolated communities
▶ 1:51:15however you also highlighted the challenges posed by limited personnel and resources in these same communities to counteract uh nefarious U uas activities uh how do you think this committee can strike the right balance between fostering Innovation and ensuring National Security Congressman that's a very good question because the potential value for these systems especially in rural communities across the United States is tremendous and we're looking at going
▶ 1:51:45to larger aircraft so our team has flown an autonomous Cessna Grand Caravan with Partners so we are not just talking small drones we are talking a wide range of course as you do that it also means the potential risks of those Technologies is higher and we need to have a strong ability to understand what is there and what the potential impacts are and how to mitigate it in order to be able to use it effectively in a way we know
▶ 1:52:15so in terms of that balance it is always a risk benefit calculation in terms of counter drone and so you have to weigh the benefits of what we actually are achieving you know getting insulin to somebody who needs it in 3 minutes as opposed to you know hours versus the risk that that air that particular drone might be flying in a way that um scares people or if used adversely could potentially um
▶ 1:52:46impact another aircraft you know deliver weapons Etc so I think we need to work both Ides we can't just go for the sake of good assuming that everybody's going to use it correctly I think we need to have that strong uh counter drone component to make sure that we are operating safely and I think HR 8610 was a good start and we need to make sure that we are monitoring and moving forward those authorities as necessary to protect the the airspace
▶ 1:53:16thank you thanks so much uh M ellman uh you had a conversation with Mr Perry earlier about the uh rules elimination elimination of certain rules uh want to add to that in terms of what we can do here with the pace of innovation and acknowled acknowledging America is lagging behind other nations in this industry how what can this committee do the best craft legislation that is not obsolete by the time it becomes law that's a really great question that's a really great question Congressman thank you so one of the important things when we're thinking about um obviously
▶ 1:53:47technology moves a whole lot more quickly than policy and bureaucracy that's a Timeless issue it's certainly true in our industry and with drones and um we've talked about some Antiquated laws and rules that also apply to drone technology which which mean that you can't actually deal with criminal drones so when as crafting this legislation something that we do think is important is to be technology neutral and performance-based and risk based right so enable you know we've heard about like from Chris about the certain environment that airports present their other types of
▶ 1:54:17environments where there's no one- siiz fits-all solution in terms of these Technologies there could be different technologies that are appropriate for different types of environment and we want to not be prescriptive to the operator of these systems and what types of Technologies they need to be using um and and enable the end user of these Technologies to themselves kind of determine what's appropriate in these particular circumstances as long as they're not impacting the broader National airspace system and impacting safety in any way thank you looks like I'm running out of time I just want to say I'm looking forward to Innovation and thank you guys
▶ 1:54:47for bringing that to us uh we're in a different day and I think it's going to be time to impact this industry in a a positive way so thank you so much for that thank you thank you uh Mr Carson you're recognized for five minutes thank you chairman you know I'm proud to represent uh Indianapolis which is located in the great Hooser State home to the largest single sporting Day event in the world the nd500 also the Indianapolis Colts you know unauthorized drone operations have been a persistent problem as you all know uh that can interfere
▶ 1:55:17with sporting events at stadiums especially at high capacity stadiums we included changes in the FAA re authorization Bill to address some of these concerns but I do think we have a lot much more work to do we can all agree on that what have you heard from stakeholders about problematic drone operations around major events and are more changes needed for temporary flight restrictions for major events to strengthen safety and reduce possible disruptions I I'm happy to speak to that obviously
▶ 1:55:48you you know you mentioned um your local events in Indianapolis that's true across the country we have the Super Bowl coming up major sporting events have seen careless clueless criminal drone operations in increasing numbers over the last several years and um they also have historically been protected by this Congress post 911 with a notam notice to Airmen um and flight restrictions a TFR that starts one hour before and one hour after so certainly commercial drone operators know not to fly
▶ 1:56:18there they they know that they're not authorized there are restrictions in place um this Congress also took or sorry last year in the fa reauthorization Bill there are additional steps taken to protect concerts for example with a large public Gatherings provision and so we think it makes sense like your like your uh legislation would do to protect stadiums and um you know and we think there should be even larger numbers of stadiums protected under the legislation because it's it's not controversial commercial drone operators shouldn't be flying there there's no privacy interest around
▶ 1:56:48these temporary flight restrictions and we're talking about the safety of millions of Americans i y back chairman I now recognize Mr Weed from the great state of Wisconsin thank you Mr chairman so first I'd like to thank the committee for holding this hearing today and I'd like to say that I look forward to serving on this committee as we work to ensure that our nation's infrastructure is stronger safer and more efficient than ever before
▶ 1:57:19i' like to also thank all of our Witnesses here today Aviation is especially critical for my district Wisconsin's 8th District Two international airports dozens of small air strips being right next door to the EAA Experimental Aircraft Association uh during that week-long air Venture event in Oshkosh that makes uh Wisconsin the busiest in the world it's become painfully clear that our Aviation systems need to be reexamined and improved with safety remaining our top priority my deepest sympathies go out to
▶ 1:57:49the families of those who were lost last week in the terrible tragedy that occurred just miles from this very building as we've heard today unmanned aircraft systems present a wide range of uses across many different applications however we must ensure that their use does not compromise safety or security I look forward to working with my colleagues on this committee to identify and address those issues as they arise we talked today and thank you again for your uh testimony we talked about detection and mitigation with drones and I'll I'll ask
▶ 1:58:19this to each of you um are there certain areas right now where drones are not able to fly and I don't mean that you know they're restricted you know where we say you can't fly uh is there are there like restrictive areas where they just literally can't like like around here those types of areas where like a drone just would stop and go the other way is there technology like that I so it sounds like you might be asking about geofencing technology geofencing geofencing so
▶ 1:58:49geofencing technology creates V virtual boundaries for a drone certain drones do have that capability um I know manufacturers have been moving away from the use of geofencing Technology that's actually makes your legislation even more important because it means that the careless and the clueless who maybe previously couldn't actually get close to an airport because the geofencing technology it was built into the virtual boundaries and they couldn't fly close to the airport that no longer exists so so um certainly
▶ 1:59:19you know there is technology out there but it's at this point not broadly used um except for commercial drone operators who install it for their use and so um it it you know there's even more need to protect from the careless and clueless is there technology that we have that would literally not allow a drone to come near like a building or an area is do we have that technology is that available so we have Technologies Congressman that um if you come in
▶ 1:59:49the area we can work on taking your aircraft down but it is not a perimeter that operates independently it it would require human intervention and right now it's illegal in most areas in the United States do you feel that that is technology that we could ever have that we could develop I do believe is there any anti-jamming like for I don't know just an area that just doesn't allow drones to come through as I'm just wondering if that's a possibility so so Congressman it is a possibility the
▶ 2:00:19concern with jamming is that you jam other fre quencies that were not intended and so you could Jam other systems that are operating on the same frequencies or you could have emissions that aren't your primary emission but get emitted as um overtones or other um frequency bands that you don't expect and have adverse impacts so that that's the major concern with jamming and in Alaska the military does jamming exercises and they have to notify every
▶ 2:00:50Airman in the state that this is occurring to make sure that um they if they encounter something weird that you know they're prepared and they can avoid those areas okay so it could be possible it's just there's other with every cause there a Rea I mean there could be other issues with using it around an airport or something like that okay because it just seems to me that we want to prevent uh an issue with a drone flying into an airplane and obviously keeping us safe so I'm just looking at other options
▶ 2:01:20for you know for those that don't follow the rules you know those types situations do you feel that we're I mean that that airports are generally Mr mclin safe um including smaller airports uh from you know problems with unmanned aircraft yes sir I mean I continue to believe that the US airspace including the airports in it is the safest system in the world and we prove that every single day when we operate um as we've talked about there are small uas definitely can represent
▶ 2:01:51a hindrance to operations at airports but we believe there's mechanisms to keep all airports safe the small ones the medium ones the large ones it may be a process solution in a really small airport and a tech solution in a really big airport but we do think there are mechanisms that exist all right thank you I yield back gentleman yields I now recognize Miss fosi for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and ranking member coing for holding this hearing today and thank you all for being here with us Mr mofen in your
▶ 2:02:21test you write that the Dallas Fort Worth airport is one of the limited number of airports with detection systems in place can you share what lessons were learned and how they can be applied in an airport specific approach to us uas detection and mitigation yes ma'am thank you for the question I think from an uh we've had detection in place for about seven years eight years almost if my math is right and as I said earlier all detection
▶ 2:02:51has sort of strengths and weaknesses one of the things that we learned early was that our system wasn't foolproof it wasn't going to identify everything but one of the important things that that all detections do systems do is allow us to narrow the haystack so if we can detect if we can track if we can identify drones those that are authorized and those that aren't authorized but we at least know who and what and where they are that gives us a better opportunity to go after the ones that might be actually nefarious
▶ 2:03:21the ones that we can't identify we see them but we don't know so that I think has been one of the single biggest learnings that we've had and then the second one and I've talked about it a couple times is that this constant absolute need for realtime coordination with our federal state and local Partners to ensure that we're that we're on the same page that we can communicate well and that we can work as a team to mitigate situations as arise and additionally can you also comment on improving
▶ 2:03:52the role of the FAA or even the TSA in counter uas deployment at airports in terms of their actual deployment um for mitigation or detection for mitigation so we believe that for for the federal government to better mitigate real-time incidents at an airport it would be very beneficial for them to have a persistent Authority the ability approved once at the secretarial level but then the the ability to
▶ 2:04:22act when needed so that those actions could take place in minutes not days thank you as a member of the science space and Technology committee as well I am deeply interested in the safe and secure implementation of AI Miss Elman in your work with the commercial drone Alliance can you speak to the extent AI is being utilized in drone or other uas technology certainly so automation
▶ 2:04:52technology has been in the Aviation Space for many years it's actually made air travel a lot safer and that's a great thing drones is well are becoming increasingly automated one thing that's really important here is this new part 108 rule which we've talked a little bit about would be is expected to essentially in uh put a a framework around the safe use of these automated Technologies making uh that rule even more urgent to move forward as quickly as possible are there other safeguards in place to prevent remote access from
▶ 2:05:22being an an unauthorized operator certainly cyber protections are key and there's lots of standards that are out there and work that has been done in the Aviation Space around cyber security that the Drone industry can leverage and we support um as well stakeholders working hand inand with the federal government around cyber security protections thank you Mr chairman I you back the general woman yields back I now recognize Mr Barrett for five minutes thank thank you Mr chairman
▶ 2:05:52and appreciate all of you on the panel that are here today A lot of information and a lot of it honestly reveals more concerns right and the um anxiety that we have about nefarious use whether that is through negligence whether that's through intentional disregard um purposeful um misuse of of unmanned systems I mean I I think about the just massive uptake in drone use over the last decade
▶ 2:06:22or so I think someday I'm going to tell my grandkids that we actually used to fly inside these things instead of outside of them um but that is just becoming more of a reality I wanted to ask your thoughts and I was not here in the last Congress when some of these things were considered and and debated and voted on um but one of the biggest concerns I have is you probably recall in 2019 there was a massive drone attack on a Saudi Arabian oil refinery where
▶ 2:06:52I think it was houthi Rebels launched this drone strike that they were unprepared for and unable to protect against and it shut down one of the world's largest oil refineries for a significant period of time presenting a major risk now here in the United States it was a newsworthy event but it didn't really affect our daily life in a tremendous fashion but that could have been different could have been happening here it could have been happening in a more serious manner in a national security threat as the chairman had pointed pointed out at the beginning of
▶ 2:07:23remarks you know I know we've got a a drone gun that can you know you can shoot at a drone and it sets out a frequency that can guide it or or misdirect it what have you that might work for one what about when there are 5,000 and they all have a small payload how do you prevent against that I know that we don't have 5,000 Nets we can fire up into the sky for example are there ways that we are anticipating or preparing for that Poss possible scenario
▶ 2:07:53different than the 17-year-old high school kid that accidentally flies his drone through your airport causing an economic disruption and time and lost energy and effort and all of that versus intentional National Security threats Congressman if I can take that question um swarming is of great concern to everybody involved in the counter uas space and we are looking at what types of Technologies can handle multiple aircraft at the same time time um there have been some
▶ 2:08:23videos released that people had in terms of what a swarm could do they did it as a science fiction thing but unfortunately the reality is that some of these are very capable of hap happening so the people involved are looking at all of the opportunities some of those systems um when you start talking about some of the the how to get into this how some of the more high-tech areas you
▶ 2:08:53can do multiple drones at the same time from the same system and so we are testing those um those would be not to cut you off I'm sorry but just in the interest of time those would not be um uh precluded from operating or working if for example there was not a ground operator commanding all five or all the entire swarm right they were programmed before takeoff for that particular flight route so they're not being controlled by a remote operator any longer longer they've just been launched and now they're
▶ 2:09:24going on the flight path that working against an autonomous swarm yeah and it is a concern and I do know counterd drone manufacturers who are working in that technology okay and Congressman to your point just wanted to highlight that the section 2209 rule is exactly focused on this type of circumstance around oil and gas facilities now critical National infrastructure but rules aren't followed by people who 100% you know that in mind it's just another enforcement mechanism after the fact yes
▶ 2:09:54um and I got to go quickly too so thank you for that um you mentioned uh missman technology neutral Vantage Point rules and mechanisms uh Mr burett asked about you know a family outside in their swimming pool that type of thing would you agree with me that the technology isn't the same as if your neighbor buys an airplane or a helicopter and flies it in the National airspace and looks down at your pool from 1,000 ft Fe up in the air versus having a drone that is
▶ 2:10:24100t above you as you're enjoying an afternoon with your family or something like that I I view those two as separate instances now being in plain view in the airspace is something that people can observe but I feel like it's different when you are doing it in a in a purposeful way um in Michigan in the state legislature when I served there we passed a bill that said if you are operating a drone and it does something illegal it is basically you the same laws would apply as if you were
▶ 2:10:54doing that versus if the Drone was doing it is that a contemplation we can have would that solve some of these conflicts about individual concerns about privacy and everything else versus you know the Drone operator in operating in the National airspace and balancing those two yeah certainly so there are privacy or technology neutral laws and rules that do apply if there are gaps we would you know we would be happy to work with your office on that I'm also from Michigan I actually went to Mcintyre Elementary School I saw you were grew up in Southfield as well so
▶ 2:11:24very good be happy to work with you thank you so much appreciate it thank you Mr chair the gentleman yields back the chair now recognizes Miss Holmes Norton for five minutes of questions thank you Mr chairman uh first I would like to offer my deepest cond uh sympathies to the families and friends of the 67 people killed last we in the tragic
▶ 2:11:55medair collision near DCA this Collision illustrates why safety must be our top priority in managing the nation's airspace the national capital region part of which I represent has the most restricted airspace in the Nation but the airspace DCA is
▶ 2:12:25also among the most congested Mr mofen although the FAA prohibits flying dones within 15 miles radius of DC which I represent without authorization what should the federal government be considering as it deploys counter drone measures to protect the national capital region
▶ 2:12:56to ensure they do not interfere with saf operation of airplanes and helicopters here thank you for the question I mean we we will always say and I'll say it repeatedly safety always has to be our absolute number one priority so for me from an airport perspective and especially in a in a congested airspace like we have in the NCR are it's critical that those traditional aircraft have a safe passage to
▶ 2:13:26their destination and so things like rigers testing um in in a variety of environments against multiple Solutions and ensuring that there's always a buffer a a safety mechanism if you will to ensure that that all systems are inherently safe and if there's any question that they're not they cannot be deployed in close proximity to airports thank you um as
▶ 2:13:56co-chair of the quiet quiet Skies caucus and the member who represents the District of Columbia right here which is plagued by airplane noise and helicopter noise I am interested in how drones can reduce Aviation noise such as by reducing the need for helicopters in certain circumstances Elman how could increased use of
▶ 2:14:26drones reduce uh Aviation noise it's a great question congresswoman thank you so much and yes it is it is accurate to say that drones generally are much quieter than larger manned aircraft um they're generally electric battery powered and um not you know not nearly as noisy as existing modes of transportation so we see very um many environmental benefits including around noise to integrating
▶ 2:14:56drones into International airspace thank you Dr cohill you mentioned the importance of communication with the public on drone activity what steps can Congress take to ensure the public receives more information on drone and counter drone activity thank you for that question Congressman in terms of communication I think Congress needs to
▶ 2:15:27really set the expectation for the federal agencies in terms of communicating with their stakeholders um it took a while before we got Communications on the New Jersey drones and people developed a whole bunch of good conspiracy theories in the process as it was they were taking time to evaluate what was happening I think being clear early and of what we know what we don't know what some of the limitations are um and setting that expectation
▶ 2:15:57of the agencies would be important towards developing trust with the public and also you know really highlighting what um what the good is of these systems why we do the testing and why there may be drones in the air in addition to the fact that you know if you're happen to be looking at the operation in a particular area why that might be worthwhile and important and not something necessarily that
▶ 2:16:27you would be broadcasting at all times because there is often a security issue if you are operating over a military installation or some other facility thank you and I yield back thank you the gentle lady yields back the chair now recognizes Mr and for five minutes of questions thank you Mr chairman let me start with um let
▶ 2:16:57me start with Mr mlin so I'm a pilot myself um and I SP fly out of Spirit of St Louis airport in St Louis and you know one thing we learned when we're about about 800 hours instrument writing but one thing we learned very early is you don't go to into de Bravo airspace without permission so the what was it 1,500 drone sightings incidents I forget what
▶ 2:17:27you call them uh 1 15 150 uh were they did they all enter your Bravo airspace the 150 and I'm going to say this generally but I'm going to say yes I'd have to confirm exactly that all 150 were in the Bravo airspace but I think that is accurate okay because you know obviously obviously if I did that entered the airspace without permission and I'd get a you know call this phone number when you get down you know copy this number down um
▶ 2:17:57I wonder is are I mean generally are you able to locate the Drone operator and do they face consequences if so what are those so generally speaking we are able to and by by generally I'm not going to say 100% of the time but I would say more than 50% of the time we're able to locate the pilot because of the license plate signature that we talked about yeah and as uh as as one of your colleagues mentioned you know a 17year old that's generally who it is
▶ 2:18:27it's a kid and a local community who got a new toy and doesn't know the rules it's it's inadvertent okay okay and you know we do have laws against you know trespass and um you know the uh one of my colleagues mentioned you know the pool you know your your daughter is sunbathing out by the pool and someone flies the drone over and starts taking pictur pictures um you know let's say the dad walked outside and said heck with
▶ 2:18:57this and he's out in the let's say it's out in the country there's no harm in shooting a 12 gauge in the air and he blast that thing did he just break some laws I assume he did yeah I assume the answer to that's yes now you know of course we're not allowed to guard our homes with shotgun traps but what what what can that what can that uh that husband and father do when privacy's violated or or what laws is the Drone operator if any
▶ 2:19:27violating well the first I would say the first step here is that we have this remote identification rule which is now taken effect virtually all drones flying in the National airspace should be broadcasting a license plate and so I would you know tell that father to pull out their smartphone and pull up an app drone scanner for example and point it at the Drone and see what the license plate is and if it's then hovering over their pool they call local law enforcement and say hey there's a drone hovering over my pool here's a license plate can you help with this okay and so that drone operator though might be violating
▶ 2:19:58laws against you know trespass or voyerism or whatever just like if he were doing it there himself okay um and then um Dr Dr K Hill um you mentioned that um the problem with counter counter drone systems might include laws such as Title 18 USC the aircraft sabotage act and 49 USC aircraft privacy
▶ 2:20:29um I you know I would imagine most of those laws were were passed at a time where messing with aircraft those aircraft were were manned and and doing anything to mess with aircraft or aircraft Communications or aircraft navigation systems would put people in you know in Jeopardy but here we're talking about you know a drone it's an inanimate object um do do you see ways in which we might need to to change the law or you know the FAA
▶ 2:21:00change rags in order to address those that difference yes Congressman I really do think that there should be some evaluation of that excuse me um right now if you take out an amend aircraft you're looking up to 20 years imprisonment and $200,000 in fines take take out an aircraft and the law doesn't really distinguish between manned and unmanned it does not that in the statute in um title
▶ 2:21:3049 section 84001 the definition clearly states it is an aircraft so right then and there with that wording it is defined so yeah 20 years you know taking out an aircraft 20 years seems entirely appropriate on the other hand that the example I gave to Mr mlin the dad saying who's this peeping Tom you know looking at my daughter and getting out the 12 gauge that doesn't seem like he should go to prison for 20
▶ 2:22:00years so maybe maybe there's a need for some distinctions in law Congressman I believe that there should be in there but it needs to be reasonable and you need to consider what the impact of an aircraft coming down is sure you don't want somebody just shooting and having a fall on a car or a kid out playing sure so there needs to be gu lines in there absolutely okay you uh thank you the gentleman yields back I now recognize
▶ 2:22:31Miss Gillan for five minutes of questions thank you uh Mr McLaughlin the unauthorized use of drones uh is a huge issue in my district which is right next door to JFK Airport and it's one of the busiest airspaces in the world with more than 60 million p passengers a year we'll always remember flight uh tww flight 800 which tragically crashed off the coast of Long Island in 1996 killing all 230
▶ 2:23:02passengers the risk of a uas incursion into our airport and across the path of a major airliner is unfortunately all too real are we doing everything we can to secure our airports and invert another potential disaster it's a great and you know really important question again we're we're talking about safety and we're talking about uh the the safety of our traditional airspace as it relates to to uas so in terms of what more can be done I for an airport like JFK I strongly would encourage
▶ 2:23:32the the use of technology that allows for the airport and the authority to detect to track and identify uh uas in their airspace so that appropriate steps can be taken I talked earlier about the idea of narrowing a hay stack the ability to see what's in your platform what's around you in this common operating picture gives you the ability to to more quickly and more appropriately tackle the issues that truly are a threat to Aviation which are those ones that you haven't been able
▶ 2:24:02to uh to detect track and identify thank you um and just a follow-up question as you mentioned in your test testimony Mr McLaughlin some state and local law enforcement agencies have advanced capabilities that enable them to respond to drone incidents near what additional Authority or resources can we give agencies like the Port Authority police department to help them identify and take down these unauthorized drones so we at DFW are proponents and and
▶ 2:24:33I would believe the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey might be as well of Pilots uh through uh agencies like yours and like mine where we have uh very sophisticated police departments where we have uh a high degree of training and where we are subject to Federal oversight um and where we have significant ability to invest in in technology safety tested technology that can that can allow us to do our job effectively we believe that locals including
▶ 2:25:03uh airport uh law enforcement agencies can serve as effective Force multipliers for the federal government we don't believe the federal government has the resources to be everywhere all the time and we think that we can be again helpful in the fight against unauthorized uas in our airspace thank you uh Dr kahill as you know the Department of Defense has established a joint counter small uas office and has issued a DOD strategy for countering
▶ 2:25:33unmanned systems these systems can be used to counter the threat of killer drones used in the war against Ukraine as well as drones used by Iran and Hamas how can we also make use of this technology here in the United States to help protect our military bases our critical and Homeland congresswoman I completely and totally agree that this is a very very important thing for our military to have these capabilities right now we are learning in Ukraine as people are adapting unmaned aircraft
▶ 2:26:04in different ways and people are working to counter them we have trouble with uh having our local us uh counterd drone people actually test here they're doing a lot of the test and evaluation in Ukraine because it is a real use case and they have trouble getting permissions here the technology that is being developed in Ukraine needs to be applied to our military bases uh in Alaska we have a real challenge with people launching drones from the base of Ison
▶ 2:26:34Air Force Base which has two squadrons of f35s uh we have drone incursions at Fort gy which is our missile interceptors we need to have this technology deployed at our military bases and many of them do have uh some of the counter drone Technologies but it needs to be improved it needs to be strengthened we need to be doing the research to make sure our military has the best systems possible thank you I yield back General lady yields I
▶ 2:27:04now recognize Mr shrie for five minutes thank you Mr chairman um I appreciate the witnesses being here just by way of background I'm a new representative from Central Indiana my district includes uh the Indianapolis international area airport uh where at we have the second largest uh FedEx air Hub in the country um so these issues are of central import before I uh uh came into this role I
▶ 2:27:34served in city government and the Indianapolis uh Airport Authority it uh is a function of city it's one of our Municipal corporations and we own and operate uh six airports in the region uh we have a a a nent uas system my question is probably best directed to Mr uh would you uh point to if not uh the DFW Airport any other airport authorities
▶ 2:28:05that in your view have the most evolved um uas system that uh an authority like in Anapolis or others could Benchmark too aspirationally are there some that are ahead of the curve and have figured this out that we might follow their lead on well first of all uh Indianapolis is is a great airport uh Mario does an incredible job leading that airport um and at
▶ 2:28:35the the risk of of arrogance I would say that I think DFW has done some really good work over the last several years we work closely with all of our airport Partners that's one of the reasons why I'm here today is to Advocate on behalf of of all of our colleagues across the country um we also you know work with with associations like Tria AE ACI the core 30 airports come together on a regular basis to talk about issues and Trends and opportunities and so as a community we're always uh willing to work
▶ 2:29:05together and and Indianapolis is an important part of that Community we work with them all the time I appreciate that and I would Echo your senon son Mario uh Rodriguez he's he's just been terrific uh for us in Indianapolis and regionally um Let me let me expand that question out just a bit further I mean the US has the largest and most complicated uh air traffic control system in the world uh I believe I'm correct in in in in stating that
▶ 2:29:35but are there nation states in in in Western Europe or in Asia because of their relative compactness that have better developed uh uas systems that we might look to bench Mark to as well uh though we'd have to obviously amplify it materially given the the the great much greater geography that we have across the continental US and Beyond yes so there are obviously other airports across the globe
▶ 2:30:05uh some of them are ahead of us in terms of doing actual work because they've had authorities to do that longer um uh so I don't know whether to name uh them or not but I I I would I would tell you that we do a lot of information sharing with airports across the globe and I'm aware of a couple that have pretty Advanced um uh processes in place um and and would be happy to again talk to Mario about those in particular well please don't be shy I mean in terms of naming a few that we'd throw the spotlight on that
▶ 2:30:35we could that those of us on this subcommittee could be attuned to uh and learn from so one person's opinion and I and I uh will tell you that it that um it's it's an ongoing relationship that we have with them on a couple of different fronts and I and I I'm not going to say because I don't think I have the the knowledge to specifically say they're uh the expert but they've been very collaborative is London Heath and is
▶ 2:31:06there structure that vaa something like the Indianapolis Airport Authority London Heathrow uh covers the region that would include a gath Gatwick and City Airport do they do they approach that uas system across the the London metro or specific to the airspace immediately around uh uh uh he Heath throw so so there's separate entities and I I really don't want to get too far over my skis in terms of describing what they can and can't do um obviously
▶ 2:31:36the Gatwick incident uh was an eyeopener for airports all over the world and certainly uh Heath throw being in close proximity would have wanted to learn from from that incident I appreciate that uh Mr chairman I yield back gentleman Yi I now recognize Mr gear Miner for Mr chairman thank you very much and for my colleagues if I might interrupt for a moment I've had the pleasure of sitting in the seat the ranking member seat so let me just comment very quickly the Ukraine war is
▶ 2:32:06very very important in this issue every day the offense is counted by a defense both by Russia and the and Ukraine very very rapidly evolving Counter UAV Technologies are underway dealing with every issue that has been discussed here okay so as we go through this process of trying to figure out what to do in the United States I'd recommend that we would look to Ukraine and the lessons that are learned there with that Mr chairman I yield back thank
▶ 2:32:37you gentleman yields I now recognize Miss schuon for five minutes thank you uh saw our senior member here Mr CER Hall step in and I wasn't sure if he was going going in front of me so uh thank you so much we are um I I know my colleagues here have shared uh before and I you know I would be remiss if I didn't take an opportunity in in this time to acknowledge uh the devastation of the crash
▶ 2:33:07over the pomac the victims and their families you know not only does this impact all of us on this Aviation committee but as members of Congress uh who fly uh twice a week to do uh the service of our country this is this is so personal for so many of us and I was uh struck a new about the importance of the work that we do on this committee the work that you all do uh as well in keeping our air our airspace safe and secure uh for passengers Pilots crew
▶ 2:33:37uh and and the like um so I I trust we know that the NTSB will thoughtfully investigate these tragedies and help Congress understand how we can continue to support a Aviation safety sightings of unmanned aircraft have been reported to the FAA at the two airports in my district while I support the authorized use of drones to bolster Aviation safety I have heard increasing concerns about Associated risks to airport infrastructure
▶ 2:34:08Mr mcclin I understand from your written testimony that the FAA does not permit airports to access its data outlining whether or not a drone is authorized to fly near an airport can you speak to the importance of information sharing uh and how lack of FAA data May create barriers to an Airport's detection efforts thank you for the question And to clarify my testimony uh what what I said or meant to say was there isn't an automated system uh for
▶ 2:34:38airports to have access to that so again I've talked about relationships uh and communication throughout this hearing it's it's really important for airports and their and their uh fa Tower partners to be in regular and consistent communication we have that luxury at DFW where where we have a good information sharing with our towers and we know who's authorized and who isn't but it's a very cumbersome I'm not going to say very it is a cumbersome and manual process for us today uh sticking
▶ 2:35:08with you Mr mlin I know DFW has benefited from partnering with the TSA to detect uh these uas as has grr back home in West Michigan can you elaborate on how these pilot programs have equipped DFW in particular with additional tools to understand the uas process and how can Congress support the continuation uh of these collaborative efforts yeah thank you so the the longstanding work that we've done uh with tsa's
▶ 2:35:39uh system has as I've said earlier has shown us uh and given us the ability to narrow a hay stack what we know with that system is that there are also limitations with it so we can't utterly rely on it to tell us definitively that there's nothing nefarious in our airspace what we can do is use the information it does give us to tackle those problems freeing up resources to be vigilant against the things that that we're not aware of so what do we need we need to continue to develop technology that is more
▶ 2:36:09ubiquitous that has the ability to see a greater range of potential threats across the Spectrum so that we uh can narrow that Hy stack uh even further yeah thank you thank you uh in the wake of the tragedies I was deeply dis the tragedies of the crash I was deeply disappointed to see culture wars make their way into the aviation industry very proud of the leadership on this committee for standing up uh and strongly pushing back
▶ 2:36:39uh against some of uh those accusations um I am so proud to acknowledge that our Aviation Workforce is filled with hardworking highly skilled individuals who care deeply about safety regardless of their gender or the color of their skin this committee has long championed the continued growth and training of Aviation professionals including through our most recent FAA reauthorization Miss Elman can you touch on the need for federal training programs to ensure that uh all counter
▶ 2:37:09uas operators can appropriately utilize detection and mitigation Technologies absolutely and thank you to a fellow michigander appreciate the question um absolutely training is critical we want to enable the use of counter Technologies including mitigation Technologies or sorry including detection technologies that to appropriately trained officials or even private sector entities with regard to mitigation that would only be law enforcement um they're we're not we're not starting from scratch here uh obviously
▶ 2:37:39the um the training curricula needs to include the understanding of the airspace as well as the understanding of the detection or mitigation Technologies um but we have years of experience now under existing Federal authorities as well as many test programs so that's actually something that the federal government could start on today is designing a training curricula to make sure that we hit the ground running when hopefully you know fingers crossed um we see the legislation this year thank you thank you both for your testimony and your time today
▶ 2:38:10I yield back General lady yields and I'll recognize Mr van Drew for five minutes first of all I want to congratulate the chairman he's a friend he's a good man and he's going to be a great chairman so I look forward to working with them um you know just hearing some of this discussion with the drones I just have to go back a tiny bit I wasn't going to speak about this but as you some of you may know I'm from Jersey and boy we were the epicenter of all this and it was kind of interesting in the last Administration in the B Administration first we to were told and I remember
▶ 2:38:40this we lived it we don't know exactly what it is we don't know where they're coming from where they're going what they're carrying but we know there's nothing to worry about so we went through that then secondly we were told by the Pentagon and others and remember I lived through this whole process well there's nothing really there and it's basically just backyard drones people looking at stars and looking at aircraft coming towards them and they can look like drones but then at the same time military brought in specialized radar as you know
▶ 2:39:10to try to track them in the area because I guess they were concerned about frequency skipping and some other ways that Dron drones can avoid detection after that we restricted our airspace we had the FAA restrict some airspace understandably so we had stings over a nuclear power plant professional people not backyard guys putting down a beer we had air traffic controllers that came to me and had seen them we had the Coast Guard that had discussed with this and one of my colleagues from New Jersey as well
▶ 2:39:41and said they had seen them and so we restricted airspace and we had the investigate and then finally now you know what president Trump's been told and I imagine they're going to dig into this a little bit more is that he's been told what was the FAA all along testing their own prototypes and other experiments then why did they restrict the airspace against their own prototypes why would they do that and why didn't they say
▶ 2:40:11something to the FBI or the Department of Defense why do we bring the special radar out it's like the FAA was a separate country that we were dealing with here I just want to point that out hopefully as we move along we start to get a better handle on this because it's kind of crazy um and I want to say at the same time I'm also just tired I'm tire and sick and tired of watching America fall behind in the last four years behind in education behind in the Coast Guard behind in our roads behind in our bridges behind in
▶ 2:40:41our tunnels and anybody will tell you that it's true behind in our AI we're America that's not what we do we Excel we lead we don't fall behind and we've got to take this opportunity to work with President Trump and to work with our new chairman here to try to do something about a national drone infrastructure and protection system that makes sense we've got to control our airspace obviously and we need the organizational structure to do that at the FAA
▶ 2:41:11Miss Elman thank you for being here thank you for your leadership on drone technology you know I have the FAA tech center in my district and in New Jersey and we have the airspace modernization office and the William J Hughes FAA Technical Center for Advanced Aerospace can they be utilized I know the answer to this to advance drone infrastructure real quick absolutely and thank you Congressman for for your leadership and for for that question as well um absolutely the tech center is doing all kinds of really great work
▶ 2:41:42I know they've been doing testing I believe under the 383 program of counter drone technology um they're doing testing of all different typ typ of Technologies certainly the tech center is a great resource we think testing is really important just like the counter drone Aviation real making committee said we need as much testing as possible we've we've seen um a good amount of it we're going to see some moving forward as the authorized equipment list is um determined so absolutely I think there's a critical role for the tech center and other research facilities to play me too you heard that one chairman right
▶ 2:42:12okay um secondly uh and I know the answer um but just tell me real briefly why are you so supportive of counter drone systems certainly so I'm here representing the commercial drone Alliance we rep we the commercial drone Community recognizes that Innovation and security are two sides of the same coin we want to enable the good all of the amazingly beneficial use cases life-saving use cases that commercial drones can offer but we also recognize that any technology including drones can be Mis misused exactly inh
▶ 2:42:43Congress directed the FAA to issue a rule making to establish no fly zones around critical infrastructure and sensitive sites we know that Biden Administration failed to advance the critical rule didn't go anywhere how would a federal fly Federal framework for no fly zones over the private sector sites um intersect with expanded authorities for counter uas and are they important I know they are but go ahead tell us yes no they're very important and section 229 has been languishing out there this was
▶ 2:43:13a 2016 Congressional mandate on the FAA I know that the FAA has done work there is a rule under devel velopment it did not make it through the last Administration our fingers are crossed we can get it over the Finish Line um these these Ru makings including 108 as well are enabling techn or enabling rulemakings which will enable this industry so we want to see them move forward um we talk about limiting the uh the legislation that you're considering to flight restricted areas section 2209 would
▶ 2:43:43enable the limitation of drones over certain critical infrastructure facilities such as oil and gas facilities or utilities or other sensitive airspace and so they would really fit together hand inand where you have section 2209 kind of says okay we this is a sensitive airspace we agree that drones unauthorized drone use should be limited in this area and then that would kind of open the door for counter drone Technologies to be utilized in that airspace to protect it under your legislation and I appreciate
▶ 2:44:13that answer Mr chairman I'm going to yield back but I'm just going to say this we need to do better we're going to do better I mean we've fallen behind we're not at where we should be I want to understand everybody understand that clearly I've been deeply involved in this I thank you for your answers and I yield back Mr chairman the gentleman yields I now recognize Mr kahal for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and congratulations on your uh post as chairman of this uh subcommittee look forward to working with you to find common ground when it all possible
▶ 2:44:44um Mr chairman I also want to add my condolences to all those who lost loved ones and were impacted by the recent American Airlines collision and the medical Jet crash in Philadelphia this resulted in these were tragic accidents and resulted in significant loss of life I I must also add how disappointed to say the least and how I found outrageous and Despicable that our president would instead of focusing on the
▶ 2:45:15tragedy the victims uh blamed uh the accident on Democrats blamed it on Dei worse than a 5-year-old child and so again but maybe I didn't expect more um with that Dr Cahill in your written testimony you discuss the risks of unintended consequences from state and local entities seeking to shoot down drones however we know that there are Bad actors with access to drone
▶ 2:45:45technology that can do real harm to our nation's critical infrastructure how can Congress strike the right balance between helping protect critical infrastructure and communities from nefarious drone threats and ensuring the safety of us airspace Congressman that's a good question I think the balance really comes down to the communications um the federal government has the authority to get the information needed to
▶ 2:46:15help do a risk benefit calculation my con concern is that someone on the ground who has the authority to uh use a mitigation system and hasn't been properly trained would take an aircraft down in a case where it could damage people in property underneath it um or it could have some other unintended consequence so having the best possible information to make that decision and coordinating with the agencies that have those authorities I think will be key and
▶ 2:46:45it it is a multi-stakeholder decision in terms ter of you're looking at privacy security um airspace all of those things together in terms of making that decision so my concern is that if somebody is not appropriately trained they're not going to go through all those levels of check to make sure that what they are doing is actually worth the risk thank you Miss Alman the commercial Jone Alliance has called on Congress
▶ 2:47:15to quote leverage other accountability unquote to streamline inter agency approval processes for expanded counter uas detection and mitigation technology use can you elaborate on this recommendation certainly so we appreciate that your legislation lays out an approval process for the use of drone or counter drone Technologies for example on the authorized equipment list site analyses and other types of approval
▶ 2:47:45processes providing a framework in place for the use of this technology and that makes good sense I think what we want to prevent against is unnecessary red tape that doesn't involve safety or security and we want to ensure that the the the program is able to move forward expeditiously with without undue delay um and so the accountability mechanisms that were referring to are essentially timelines in the legislation to ensure that these uh programs don't languish and are delayed thank you uh Miss Elman
▶ 2:48:16to continue as it has been in the news recently many Americans have been reminded of the critical importance of maintaining safety within our nation's airospace especially as we welcome new entrance and Technologies within our airspace the 2024 FAA reauthorization law drafted by this committee directs the agency to hire more individuals to fill key Aviation safety roles why is it important to grow the faa's technical expertise regarding drones in aviation
▶ 2:48:47positions well certainly thank you for that question Congressman um there are very hardworking Folks at the FAA with very specific expertise um very professional expertise on drone technology there's a lot of moving pieces right now and a lot of things that need the fa's attention actually to be able to fly commercial drones in any kind of expanded Way Beyond the very limited rules that we have on the books requires waivers or exemptions or other approvals that takes staff to approve we need part 108 that is a whole
▶ 2:49:17another staff that is needed to to do the ru making there's going to be industry standards that are necessary so there's a lot of um staff resources that are necessary um we agree by the way that and we want to see the processes very much streamlined but we want to ensure that the agency is appropriately resourced so that we can make the progress that we need so that the technology and you know the policy can catch up to the technology thank you Mr chairman I'm out of time I yield back the gentleman yields I now recognize Miss Titus for
▶ 2:49:47five minutes thank you Mr chairman well you better hope that Doge doesn't go after your uh staff that you need to advance this industry or you won't have that staff that you need uh I represent Las Vegas Southern Nevada it's a very busy air space there you got McCaron one of the biggest busiest airports and it's International you got North Las Vegas you got Henderson got Nellis Air Force Base you've got helicopter tours up and down the strip and out to Grand Canyon
▶ 2:50:18you've got general aviation a lot of private planes coming in there for special events and then you have drones some of them are used commercially like for real estate development uh some are used by First Responders for rescue some are just recreational uh we even have some casinos that deliver drinks by the pool with drones so I mean that the use is endless uh in addition to that though Nevada is one of the seven states that has the testing center you mentioned
▶ 2:50:49Alaska and uh I was pleased to get in the FAA reauthorization Bill a continuation of those through FY uh 28 doctor would you talk about what's happening in those centers if anything is going on with the counter drone studying and the use of uh counter drone technology and how they really do help to develop the industry congresswoman thank you very much for that uh question yes we are grateful that you guys extended
▶ 2:51:19the FAA test sites and we are working in counter drone Technologies multiple of the test sites are working with Federal Partners to be able to test the Safety and Security of counter drone systems whether they be mitigation or detect track identify um there are projects through uh the FAA Center of Excellence through idiq uh contracts that allow the test sites to work these operations with
▶ 2:51:49an a federal Authority who has the ability to mitigate the test sites are a great place to do this testing because we have long track records of safety we also are predominantly working in areas where we have minimal ground Hazard so being able to test those uh Technologies in an area where if something goes ay or if it goes correctly and you drop the the Drone in place you know that you're not going to have an adverse impact so the test sites have all taken
▶ 2:52:19uh advantage of this you granted us the permission to buy covered systems to be able to test drones from foreign adversaries and and others so that we can make sure the counter drone systems work and I know that all of the test sites um are looking forward to doing more on this front we would like to have the direct permissions of course to press the button but we do not so overall the test sites I think are going to be an important component of do doing that testing in a known
▶ 2:52:50safe area with FAA involvement well if you give us some advice on how we might extend their Authority that would be helpful since they're going to be in existence longer we want to be sure they're doing what they need to do I know that uh in Nevada they work with other stakeholders like drri and the University of Nevada is that a kind of a common practice with these test centers um I'm having a little trouble hearing you over this I'm sorry I said in Nevada they work with the UNLV the university system
▶ 2:53:21desert Research Institute other stakeholders are engaged with the test centers I I suspect that's a common practice I don't know about Alaska that is a very common practice Congressman the the test sites are all working with various universities with public agencies we all work with commercial providers to be able to do this testing and it is we were designed to be able to test for safety in the airspace and that is for all comers
▶ 2:53:51and we now have the ability to do civilian operations in addition to the public operations we have been doing for years so it is possible to get the authority to fly up to a 1320 PB aircraft as a civil aircraft now for developing hours on that platform to get it to commercialization so this has been a major advantage for the community in terms of moving forward great just briefly M ilman you mentioned about
▶ 2:54:22using drones for firefighting this is so important in the west we saw it in California uh would you just reemphasize that point of how helpful they can be yeah absolutely obviously Rogue drones shouldn't be interfering with wildfires but drones have a really important role to play as this as Congress recognized in the fa reauthorization including by encouraging the study with an inner agency around how drones can actually help combat wildfires but also prevent wildfires in the first place I'd be happy to work more more with you on
▶ 2:54:52that uh the gentle lady yields thank you Miss Titus I think we have a couple members are on their way there's other committees I'm going to provide them a little bit of Grace but miss Helman you you know you've used the words a couple times you know careless and I think confused some of these drone Pilots that are just by mistake I guess they happen to run a drone into a restricted airspace and because they were careless and confused I think you used both those words see I I'm concerned more about the the evil and the Bad actors what
▶ 2:55:22about those individuals and and just s a simple yes and no question for for all three of you are the 450 plus commercial airports that we have equipped today to deal with mitigation should a bad actor intend to fly a drone into our restricted airspace at an airport yes or no Miss kahill Dr k sorry I I had trouble hearing that question okay are we are our are we prepared today should a bad actor fly a drone into our restricted airspace as it rates relates to mitigation
▶ 2:55:53at the 450 plus airports just a simple yes or no are we prepared this no no thank you will you want to have a casual conversation I'm sitting here Wai but uh no I I tell you what though what I have heard this is our first hearing and and I think this is very important I think the American people uh demand the best I think we have the the safest Aviation record in history I mean things are going very very well but we just make sure that we keep our eye you know on the
▶ 2:56:23prize and they make sure that we don't have any any more issues and situation accidents like we had the other day uh here in DC and then in Pennsylvania and the individuals I've talked to um on this committee have really appreciated what we're trying to do here I think it's all about education and I think that we have to help we have to listen to the industry as well one thing I've learned about Congress up here is we we think we know everything uh and we don't we don't we
▶ 2:56:54need to look to Industry leaders and stakeholders and experts on on what's happening out there and then take that information uh digest it and then come up with some reasonable options or recommendations to to improve our system uh to make sure that we are I mentioned the other day I said we are the gold standard we are the gold standard in aviation and I think the world the globe is looking for us to continue to maintain a standard
▶ 2:57:25uh that high standard all right Miss po you ready I recognize you for five minutes so sorry here you go very well thank you again thank you chairman Nells and ranking member Cohen for holding this uh hearing um first I'd like to uh acknowledge the horrific crash here in Washington last week
▶ 2:57:55I want to express my deepest cons condolences to the loved ones of all the victims of the crash and I want to thank all of the First Responders who worked in who worked in extremely challenging conditions to try to help and then find the victims I look forward to to reviewing the NTSB reports when it it when it is issued and I won't speculate on that cause I am
▶ 2:58:26confident but that I am confident policies for diverse Workforce were not the reason for the first uh major uh commercial crash in 16 years I plan to work with this committee to ensure that we have enough well-trained qualify air traffic controllers serving America and to address the root causes of this crash and to prevent future tragedies let me just Begin by saying um that
▶ 2:58:56many many for uh many uh Garden Staters were mesmerized and worried by all the reports of the mysterious drones in the sky uh late last year certainly in New Jersey um so I'd like to ask uh Dr kill if you would um I I would appreciate um your I appreciate your testimony on the fear that uh New Jersey experienced and the insuring
▶ 2:59:26uh confusion do you have any recommendations uh for whether federal state or local entities should be primarily responsible for addressing drones and how if if how do you believe can we uh improve coordination among these entities so Congressman I think it's very important that we have communication and that it is clear and obvious a lot of people in the community don't know
▶ 2:59:56about the remote ID rule that Melman has talked about in terms of those electronic license plates that needs to be communicated better we need to communicate between the different agencies and um I'll be honest in terms of New Jersey people don't realize how much Drone testing is occurring the William Hughes test center is testing and I'll admit we have operators flying under the University of Alaska Fairbanks at Cape May so you know there is a lot of activity that people don't know that is designed
▶ 3:00:26in terms of test and evaluation and is publicly FAA approved and but the there isn't a list normally that is kept in terms of who happens to be operating under which permission when and so that is was one of the challenges in terms of the FAA didn't know who was necessarily in that airspace at that moment moment because we can get permission to fly at a specific area and for us we have to do a notice to air mission to say
▶ 3:00:57yes we are flying you know 24 hours in advance but when exactly you happen to be in the airspace and whether or not people pay attention to that is very different so just to point out it was a very I know from Inns of our state and inters of our community and many many of my constituents were extremely concerned very fearful had absolutely no idea what was going on so it is that kind of information or or or lack thereof right or knowledge that created that so I'd like to very quickly
▶ 3:01:27before my time uh uh runs up I wanted to just make mention and I'd like to point out that you know just earlier this week uh I had the opportunity to travel to New Orleans to learn uh from law enforcement about the threats of our nation's what a threats our nation uh around uh faces around the highly attended big events uh this is a priority for me as my district will be hosting uh the first uh I shouldn't say the first the
▶ 3:01:57final game of the World Cup next year and we were there in New Orleans for the Super Bowl and overseeing that Miss al man if you would please how can uh uh Congress address that large public event like the World Cup or Super Bowl to make sure that our safe from drones operators uh from you know operating from some of these really bad actors what what is your opinion I know we have a very short time here certainly I'll talk fast thank you for the
▶ 3:02:28question so um Congress has recognized the sensitive airspace around stadiums for years right with a post 911 with the temporary flight restriction uh clearly um commercial drone operators know not to be flying there without permission there's no right to fly in restricted airspace we need the ability for you know States and localities that are properly trained to utilize not just Advanced detection technology but when necessary mitigation technology in those um in those areas at those events thank you thank you Mr
▶ 3:02:58chairman I yield back gentle lady yields I now recognize Mr bagage for five minutes thank you Mr chairman so we've talked today about the fact that uh that drones represent an asymmetric capability they're cost they're off the shelf and there are low technical barriers uh to to utilizing these Technologies in nefarious ways um so let as
▶ 3:03:28that as a backdrop and I'm going to direct this question to Dr kahill where do you believe the Authority for counter uas activity should reside it's a multi-layered threat to Public Safety National Defense and critical infrastructure where do you think this needs to be centralized where should that reside congressman first off thank you for being here for Alaska uh secondly I really think that it should be at the federal level um in terms of that coordination communication and information being
▶ 3:03:59available anytime we are making a decision to take a drone out of the airspace there is always the potential for an accident or unintended consequences and I think that the people who are best equipped to do that cost benefit analysis are at the federal level where they can ensure the security privacy Etc um as we've had the discussions today with the the members of the panel you know places like airports where you can sterilize the airspace and you have control of the ground
▶ 3:04:29have some different requirements than in the general population um so I'm far more comfortable with people at that type of level and working with TSA or the federal agencies to do the counter drone are you aware of any specific Technologies um that are avail ailable uh to the Department of Defense that are not currently available for counter uas that should be available to uh civilian
▶ 3:05:00um the answer to that is yes um but I really can't get into details here so do you believe that uh some of that technology uh without getting into the details uh should be made available to civilian authorities in order to better address uh uas issues um Congressman I do I I needs to be carefully done because a lot of these do have National Security implications um if the specifications get out especially if it's located to a location
▶ 3:05:30um you get into classified region very very quickly when you're dealing with some of these military uh capabilities thank you um in your estimation what specific steps does the FAA need to take to give aasi the authority to work on developing best practices and protocols to address threats so Congressman in terms of us being able to do it that there was a good first step with the FAA reauthorization Act of
▶ 3:06:002024 you gave us permission to purchase covered drones you said that we can support counter drone testing but we don't actually have the authority to press the button uh so having somebody from the FAA who is embedded with us or works very closely with us who has the authority to do it or delegation of the authority to the test sites from the FAA would be very helpful for doing that testing because right now a lot of the commercial operators here in the US are very limited on where they can test and you want them testing
▶ 3:06:31at the test sites you want them testing in areas with minimal ground Hazard um and you want to make sure that the US um commercial entities don't have to try to wait for an opportunity to work on a military range you want them to able to develop it very quickly and have it do the basic testing at a a lower level than that particular activity thank you and thank you for your leadership in this issue uh I I expect that it will continue for
▶ 3:07:01years to come and uh you know it's very important that Alaska remain in a leadership position on This research and the development of these protocols I thank you uh for your testimony here today and I yield the balance of my time the gentleman yields uh any further questions from any members on the subcommittee that have not been recognized I will say this almost three hours just about everybody was here so that's very very good news everybody was here I see and none that concludes our hearing for today
▶ 3:07:32again thank you all for being here this subcommittee stands adjourned e