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▶ 0:24:00let's get going all right subcommittee on water resources and environment will come to order I ask unanimous consent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing without objection so ordered I also ask unanimous consent that members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions without objection so ordered as a reminder if members wish to insert a document into record please also email
▶ 0:24:31it to uh documents I uh now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement for five minutes for 50 years the Clean Water Act has functioned to improve the quality of rivers lakes and streams throughout the country including in my home state of Georgia back in 1972 when Congress passed the Clean Water Act it recognized the importance of a f federal state partnership is crucial to
▶ 0:25:01improving water quality and to providing a regulatory system that communities could re realistically follow while the Clean Water Act has had many success in maintaining improving water quality for the benefits of citizens and industries Nationwide it unfortunately has been used to slow or stop progress on projects the transportation infrastructure committee has begun that this kind Congress by focusing on the theme America builds
▶ 0:25:31because we know how important it is to the well-being of our country that we remain a world leader in our transportation networks infrastructure construction and economic development the Clean Water Act is one of the most consequential laws that our country has and it is important to ensure that is being used to balance the goals of water quality with ensuring project completion improving supply chain networks and delivering economic prosperity in short to let
▶ 0:26:01America build the Clean Water Act needs to work states manufacturers energy producers cities Farmers Builders homeowners utilities and many others rely on a Clean Water Act permitting process that is easy to understand easy to follow and easy to implement unfortunately too often these groups refer to as regulated communities are left in the dark or actively under undermined by increased regulation under the CWA by trial
▶ 0:26:32lawyers looking to make a quick Buck entrenched bureaucrats who don't have the country's best interests at heart and administrations who bend the need to radical environmental activist now is the time to revisit the Clean Water Act to ensure that it puts America first to do this we need to hear from those most affected by the law in order to know how we can improve our regulatory environment without decreasing protections for water quality president Trump has recognized the importance of unleashing
▶ 0:27:02our nation's natural resources ramping up energy production and maintaining our physical in infrastructure these priorities will enhance the Trump administration's ability to pursue an America First agenda that lets America build as a chairman of Water Resources environmental subcommittee I am looking forward to working with my colleagues to ensure excellence in transportation and infrastructure space and further ing the president's goals today's hearing marks an
▶ 0:27:32opportunity to do so by hearing from our Witnesses on how to return the Clean Water Act to its goal of protecting our water bodies and allowing important projects to get done I now recognize riking member scon Scolton for five minutes for an opening statement thank you chairman Collins and congratulations uh for your selection to lead the subcommittee on water resources and environment I look forward to working with you uh as the vice ranking
▶ 0:28:02member in meeting the water related needs of our nation our communities and the hardworking families that we represent I'm privileged to serve Michigan's thirdd congressional district in Congress representing miles of beautiful Lake Michigan Shoreline it's a district whose history lifestyle and economic well-being are bound with the health of the Great Lakes the Great Lakes are arguably the largest source of fresh water on the surface of the Earth containing roughly 20% of the world's
▶ 0:28:33freshwater supply for our region the protections of the Great Lakes and the health of our environment is not a partisan issue it's something that is ingrained in our culture as we responsibly teach the Next Generation to be good stewards of our environment our quality of life and our very existence depend on clean water for everyday consumption for Commerce Recreation and the overall economic ality of the region it supports our farmers who grow their
▶ 0:29:03crops from apples to pears peach trees and soybeans it supports the foundation of the great craft beer that forms beer City USA that I'm so proud to represent that is why I am so deeply concerned with the harm that this Administration and the Allies in Congress are imposing on our clean water future in just 3 weeks the president has thrown cities and towns into chaos by shutting down funding allocated
▶ 0:29:33by Congress for water infrastructure projects including the historic investments in water infrastructure provided through the bipartisan infrastructure law this disarray has forced communities of all sizes to re-evaluate how to deliver critical water infrastructure projects and will result in these projects taking longer costing more and ultimately delaying critical Local Economic Development environmental and and public health benefits the administration's efforts will also undermine the roughly 28,000
▶ 0:30:04jobs that are created for every billion dollars in water infrastructure investment putting the jobs of laborers and manufacturers at risk in addition to threatening our supply chains finally these actions will hit the wallets of hardworking American families who will see higher water bills because of this uncertainty at the same time that inflation is back on the rise The Silence of my colleagues across the aisle whose States and communities are equally impacted by the
▶ 0:30:34president's moves to undermine water infrastructure spending is somewhat surprising it is my sincere hope that this silence is not a green light for further reduction in federal water infrastructure spending we need it more now than ever our communities cannot withstand further setbacks to federal and state efforts to protect our water and our environment and we cannot allow the president and his allies to burden American ameran families with increased costs and public health risks I welcome my colleagues to join me
▶ 0:31:04as I stand firmly in defense of our great lakes and freshwater supplies across the country to ensure a healthy environment and a strong economy for future Generations we can do both and I look forward to working with anyone to realize this goal thank you Mr chairman I yield back chair now recognizes the ranking member of the committee Mr lson for five minutes for an opening statement thank you chair Collins for holding this hearing on the ways we
▶ 0:31:34can ensure that job creating infrastructure keeps America moving and reduces supply chain challenges this hearing is part of a series America builds and thanks to the bipartisan infrastructure law America is building again and we need to keep it going holding up job creating investments will not help America build slashing the workforce of agencies that play a critical role in permitting these projects will not keep America building Congress invested 13.8 billion in the bipartisan
▶ 0:32:05INF infrastructure law to upgrade Wastewater systems prevent pollution and support qual the quality of life across the country these Investments are critical providing a Lifeline to communities struggling to maintain water quality these Investments equal jobs for every $1 billion invested in cleaning up pollution in your water approximately 28,000 jobs are created according to the National utility Association these Investments are helping Drive the low 4%
▶ 0:32:35unemployment rate while modernizing our infrastructure in just the last few years in my own District Washington State second district local workers are upgrading aging sewer and water equipment and protecting local the local groundwater Supply from a $1.4 million State revolving fund Loan in watom county for replacing adequated equipment to a $200,000 engineering review Grant to the luming nation for assessing their Wastewater needs these job creating Investments are making a difference
▶ 0:33:05and the work isn't finished the most recent Environmental Protection Agency report on Wastewater infrastructure needs estimated we would need 271 billion dollar Nationwide over the next 20 years to meet the standards that keep pollution out of your water these challenges are not limited to one region they affect communities from coast to coast from my Coast to the chair's Coast to the Inland lakes and rivers of the member part of keeping America building is improving permitting for infrastructure projects through the
▶ 0:33:35B the inflation reduction Act and the chips act we are seeing the benefits of investing in the workforce and the technology necessary to approve projects through investments in enhancing permitting efficiency across the federal government the Biden Administration reduced the median time to complete an environmental impact statement by eight months 23% faster than Trump 1.0 so so let's keep that going we can invest in infrastructure and protect the environment at the same time ensuring that America builds while also
▶ 0:34:05making sure America breathes clean air and drinks clean water when Congress passed a Clean Water Act over 50 years ago members recognize the effectiveness and importance of the comprehensive pollution prevention measures stopping pollution before it happens rather than simply cleaning it up clean and Water Act was enacted with an overwhelming bipartisan majority before this law rivers and lakes served as little more than open sewers Lake Erie was pronounced dead and Ohio's kyoga River
▶ 0:34:36literally caught on fire but thanks to the Clean Water Act the Cascade River in my district was designated as an outstanding resource Water by the state of Washington which protects that River from future activities or development that would degrade water quality for decades Republicans and Democrats shared these bipartisan principles to defend clean water maintain a strong federal state partnership to protect our Waters stop pollution from entering the system in the first place and support a robust Federal floor of protections while allowing states
▶ 0:35:06to do more but not less and the bipartisan INF infrastructure law shows what happens when Congress does the right things and funds infrastructure step one to keep the progress going is to ensure that states and loc local governments can continue to depend on this Federal investment freezing funds from the state revolving fund from the super fund or other EP EPA programs is a step backwards predictable reliable funding helps state and local government leaders make their
▶ 0:35:36decisions on allocating uh dollars to ensure the biggest bang for the buck sewing chaos and uncertainty on WEA federal and state efforts to protect our water envir environment will not continue to help the American people working in a bipartisan fashion Congress passed comprehensive Environmental Protection laws like the Clean Water Act and historic investments in infrastructure like the bipartisan infrastructure law I look forward to finding ways to build on these bipartisan accomplishments this Congress
▶ 0:36:06I want to thank our Witnesses all of them for being here today I look forward to your testimony and with that back all right thank you I want to welcome our Witnesses uh thank you for your time and for being here today we have uh with us today Mr Robert single ter executive director of the Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality The Honorable Sean loret uh commissioner of the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection Mr Noah hanners Executive Vice President of the new corp
▶ 0:36:36Corporation on behalf of the National Association of Manufacturers and uh Mr Buddy haston president and CEO of the Arkansas Electric Corporation on behalf of the national Rural Electric Cooperative associations I want to briefly go over the uh the uh lighting system for you there in case you don't know there three lights the green means you have plenty of time the yellow means you need to start finishing up and of course the red means to go ahead and and conclude with your remarks I'm going to
▶ 0:37:06also ask for unanimous consent that the witness's full statements be included in the record without objection so ordered I also ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our Witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing without objection so ordered I also ask unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in
▶ 0:37:37the record of today's hearing without objection so ordered as your written testimony has been made part of the record the subcommittee ask that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes with that Mr single t uh you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony good morning uh chairman Collins ranking member Scolton members of the committee my name is Rob single ter and I have the privilege to serve as the executive director of the Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality
▶ 0:38:07thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this morning and to share Oklahoma's views on the implementation of various portions of the federal Clean Water Act the Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality is the primary agency responsible for protecting Public Health in the environment in the state of Oklahoma and our responsibilities include the implementation of the clean water act within our state this morning my comments are focused primarily on Section 401 of the Clean Water Act with just a few minor comments related to section 402
▶ 0:38:37and Waters of the US to begin Oklahoma is a fierce proponent of the proper implementation of cooperative federalism as well as the right of states to set their own water quality standards and to protect water quality within their borders section 401 of the ACT provides a powerful and very important tool that allows states to ensure that water quality within their borders is properly protected however the 401 certification process has been used in the past as an opportunity
▶ 0:39:08to address general or non-water quality related concerns we feel strongly that this powerful tool should be reserved for efforts specifically related to water uh resource protection we believe that allowing the scope of this review under this provision to be broadened beyond the protection of Water Resources would undermine the legitimacy of the 41 certification process and misalign it from the overall purpose of the Clean Water Act in addition even if a particular state was not interested
▶ 0:39:38in expanding the process beyond the protection of Water Resources third parties could potentially seek to force a state to address broader concerns through this process if a broader scope of review was adopted even the scope of the current version of the rule which purports to limit the 401 certification review to water related impacts is still ambiguous and potentially subject to misapplication this ambiguity extends uh expands the workloads of state agencies complicates
▶ 0:40:08and lengthens the review process and makes certification determinations more vulnerable to Legal challenges potentially forcing state agencies to defend in court why they did or did not consider every potential watera quality related impact no matter how distant or how unlikely this of course would be a very difficult legal standard to meet if statutory changes are ever considered we advocate for clarifying language that would ensure that future EPA administrations are unable to expand the use of
▶ 0:40:39this process beyond the protection of water resources or Beyond those water quality impacts attributable to the project at issue in regard to section 402 currently the states are only allowed to issue mpds permits for periods of 5 years or we strongly support providing states with the flexibility at their discretion to issue mpds permits for longer periods up to 10 years providing a longer period would provide more certainty
▶ 0:41:09for applicants and it would effectively cut the permitting process in half over that period in regard to Waters the US Oklahoma has not sought Assumption of the section 404 permitting program so our permitting programs are focused solely on storm water and direct discharge perm per mits since our agency has delegation under Section 402 to issue mpds permits into Waters of the US and since we have authority to issue discharge permits into all other waters
▶ 0:41:39of the state our permitting programs are not significantly impacted by the welcome changes to the definition of waters of the US under the Supreme Court's decision in sacket however we have heard from applicants within the state that they do continue to experience delays in receiving applicability determination from our federal counterparts we believe it would be useful if there was a joint federal state effort employing the best available data and tools to map jurisdictional Waters of course this
▶ 0:42:09type of initiative would require ongoing effort and some expense but it would likely decrease permitting timelines and provide more clarity or certainty to applicants again thank you for the opportunity to participate in this important discussion as always we look forward to working with you with our federal co-ul ators and other stakeholders as we pursue our mission to protect and improve Public Health in the environment in a manner that supports and advances Pro prosperity for current and future Generations thank
▶ 0:42:39you all right the chair will now recognize representative po to introduce our next witness uh commissioner L tette good morning chairman uh chairman Collins ranking member scalton thank you for holding this hearing on one of the most vital and limited resources in our nation clean water I am privileged to represent the ninth congressional district of New Jersey and today I am truly honored to be able to introduce one
▶ 0:43:09of our Witnesses today an expert in environmental uh issues a leader in the great state of New Jersey and a friend commissioner Sean Lor La lored pardon me uh commissioner LED uh has over 25 years of experience in Environmental Quality Assurance natural resource management and infra infrastructure development when I was uh uh in the New Jersey state senate I was
▶ 0:43:39proud to vote to confirm him four years ago as our Commissioner of Environmental Protection commissioner thank you for joining us today thank you uh uh next uh commissioner loret you're recognized for five minutes for your testimony well good morning uh to this entire committee thank you for holding this important hearing on this topic chairman Collins Vice ranking member Scolton uh our own congresswoman po thank you very much uh honored to join
▶ 0:44:09you I have the privilege of serving the 9.3 million uh residents that call New Jersey home as their Commissioner of Environmental Protection I also serve uh as a part-time adjunct professor of environmental law at the Ruckers law school and prior to my public service career I was an attorney adviser that specialized in transportation and infrastructure projects giving counsel to regulated entities on permitting issues including under the Clean Water Act today I hope to offer this committee
▶ 0:44:40a perspective from New Jersey the most densely populated state and the nation and the perspective of a state regulator because as you know State entities like the New Jersey Department of Protection implement the Clean Water Act much like this subcommittee's work to to evaluate regulatory processes and look for opportunities to improve them so too do my njd colleagues working to consistently improve our programs and services and in doing so we ask ourselves hard questions about how
▶ 0:45:10we can best achieve the delicate balance of promoting economic growth and protecting the public health and the environment in answering those questions we ground ourselves in the fact that natural capital is always performing valuable services for the public our air our land our fish our Wildlife they're all doing important work that our fellow residents would have to pay for if we don't act thoughtfully to conserve our resources and invest in improvements for example degrade the marshes and wetlands that filter our
▶ 0:45:40water for free or permit the discharge of too many pollutants into our waterways and our residents and taxpayers pay more to build and operate drinking water treatment plants there's a poignant example of this balance within one of New Jersey's most notable Industries to ISM our small but densely populated state has one of the nation's coastlines breathtaking Bays tidal rivers and the fame Jersey Shore that's home to millions and that Millions more visit each year as their
▶ 0:46:10getaway as this subcommittee knows the Clean Water Act is a program of cooperative federalism that relies upon partnership between the states and the federal government to AFF effectuate the national goal of ridding ourselves of pollutants and waterways and achieving fishable in swimmable Waters the beauty of cooperative federalism lies in how the law empowers and supports States in taking local considerations into account while meeting minimum federal standards
▶ 0:46:40and you see that cooperative federalism at play in section 401 additionally as one of only two states that have successfully assumed responsibility for implementing section 404 our Wetland program provides another example of cooperative federalism under the Clean Water Act we initially sought assumption for two primary reasons the first to provide protective measures to minimize or avoid Wetland disturbance but importantly to promote a streamlined
▶ 0:47:11consistent and more accessible permitting process because in the absence of assumption project applicants were often challenged to adhere to two different schemes under Federal and under state law in New Jersey we have seen the stability of the wetlands program under 404 uh firsthand in that while under federal law 404 is sub been subject of perennial change New Jersey's assumed program has remained stable
▶ 0:47:41for decades unaffected by changes at the federal level and that is a level of continuity that our regul community expects and demands and as this committee also knows our nation's water infrastructure is critically underfunded even with the infusion of a mass of resources from the bipartisan infrastructure law we still have a $1.2 trillion National need for water infrastructure investment over the next 20
▶ 0:48:12years we in New Jersey have used our clean waterer uh Revol State revolving fund program to invest in our communities our health the health of our waterways and the businesses that need clean water to thrive what I hope this committee learns today from our discussion is that we always have to be careful not to overburden business with regulation and processes that may not be as valuable to
▶ 0:48:42the public but we also have to recognize the inextricable link between economic development and Environmental Protection but let us not make false choices between a healthy environment and a healthy economy thank you all right thank you the chair now recognizes Mr hanners for five minutes to give his testimony good morning chairman Collins ranking member Larson Vice ranking member Shulton and members of the subcommittee my name is Noah
▶ 0:49:12hanners and I'm a proud I'm proud to serve as Executive Vice President at new cor Corporation where I oversee our sheet products group new cor is the largest and most Diversified steel producer in the United States and the largest recycler of any type of material anywhere in North America and we are the only American steel producer that makes 100% of its steel here in America specifically our method has a fraction of the carbon footprint and rough roughly 10% of the particular
▶ 0:49:42emissions compared to an average integrated steel mill we use 95% less water than our average steel mill than an average steel mill and we capture and reprocess 86% of the processed water we reuse before discharg project several of our 26 and soon to be 28 steel mill facilities also have strategically constructed storm water Retention Ponds to capture storm water runoff manufacturers like new cor create good jobs Drive Innovation
▶ 0:50:13and build our modern digital economy all while making our environment cleaner but right now cumbersome and overreaching permitting regulations are holding back progress and hurting our nation's competitiveness and we are not alone in this view in a recent survey of Manufacturers 7 72% said that the length and complexity of the permitting process affects their investment decisions if we want to grow America's economy we need to fix this broken system new Corp can speak firsthand to
▶ 0:50:43the difficulties of navigating the federal permitting process in 2022 we announced the selection of Apple Grove West Virginia as the location for a new state-of-the-art sheet Mill at 3 .5 billion it is the largest manufacturing vest investment in the state's history new core sheet Mills create an average of 800 full-time high-paying manufacturing jobs and we're proud to have already hired 300 West Virginia teammates in addition
▶ 0:51:14we anticipate approximately 2,000 Contracting teammates at Peak construction the Strategic location of the mill on the Ohio River required us to seek Federal Federal authorization under Section 404 of the Clean Water Act as a responsible industry partner we worked diligently with state and federal agencies to gain the necessary approvals and begin turning dirt the permitting process was onor it required us to work with multiple federal agencies with little Direction
▶ 0:51:44and unclear timelines this led to moving targets for our planning and execution delaying the project and increasing costs America can do better to help manufacturers create good jobs in our communities while continuing to protect environment manufacturers have long advocated for common sense permitting reforms the National Association of Manufacturers supported bipartisan efforts during the previous Congress to update the NEPA process and speed up construction of energy
▶ 0:52:14projects working together policy makers can continue progress to achieve lasting comprehensive permitting reform and make positive changes to our nation's environmental laws this is critical as manufacturers contend with standards that are unreasonable and unworkable such as those for pasas and particulate matter serious reform should include manufacturers priorities to provide certainty streamline the permitting process and give the regulated Community a seat at the
▶ 0:52:44table this may be accomplished through changes to environmental laws like the Clean Water Act that expedite judicial review create enforcable deadlines and increase the use of categorical last Congress this committee took important steps toward reforming the Clean Water Act by advancing the creating confidence in clean water permitting act as you continue this work in the current Congress we ask you to consider several areas for Clean Water Act reform clarifying timelines for agency
▶ 0:53:15action and decisions during the permitting process establishing clear Common Sense definitions regarding the scope of project areas subject to permitting and consultation requirements provide certainty that permitting decisions are determinative and help prevent NeverEnding litigation promote the use of General permits and speed up projects with limited impact on the environment ensure the use of best available science when setting guidelines and rules encourage
▶ 0:53:45State Assumption of Permitting responsibilities and focus State Authority Under The Clean Water Act on quality new Corp and America's manufacturers are the most advanced and sustainable in the world comprehensive permitting reform that increases certainty and removes unnecessary bu bureaucrat bureaucratic hurdles will enhance American economic competitiveness and protect our environment I encourage you to seize this
▶ 0:54:15opportunity because when manufacturing wins America wins thank you and I look forward to your questions thank you next Mr haston you recognized for 5 minutes for your testimony good morning chairman commin Collins Vice ranking member Scolton and members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today my name is Buddy haston and I serve as president and CEO of the Arkansas Electric Cooperative Corporation aecc and
▶ 0:54:45Arkansas Electric cooperatives Incorporated ACI it is an honor to be before you today to talk about how we can better serve our members and your constituents aecc is a generation and trans Mission Cooperative based in Little Rock Arkansas that proudly provides power for approximately 1.2 million members of Arkansas 17 electric distribution co-ops ACI is the Arkansas Statewide trade Association which provides education public relations government relations and other support to the electric distribution
▶ 0:55:15co-ops in Arkansas reliable and affordable electricity is essential to America's economic growth and as our nation increasingly relies on electricity to power our econom keeping the lights on has never been more important or more challenging for example Arkansas is losing 3,800 megawatt of Basel load power in the near future while simultaneously facing a tremendous increase in electricity demand from data centers and facilities
▶ 0:55:46reasonable and efficient environmental regulations including permitting programs under the Clean Water Act are often the critical Link in being able to successfully complete a project on time to meet the growing generation demands of an Electric Co-op it takes several years to plan a transmission Route or pick a viable property site to build a new power plant it is essential that Federal permitting programs including those under the Clean Water Act are implemented as intended by Congress and do not unnecessarily delay or hinder critical infrastructure
▶ 0:56:16projects that deliver electricity to homes businesses and Farms across the country because electric co-ops are owned and governed by the consumer members that we serve we are committed to protecting and maintaining clean water within our communities however having clean water is not and should not be mutually exclusive with having permitting programs that are reasonable efficient and meet the needs of our growing and everchanging economy we can and we should
▶ 0:56:46do both electric co-ops rely on clean water permits to build new generation facilities build transmission and distribution lines in a timely manner perform routine maintenance or repair work restore service after hurricanes or other national disasters and undergo vegetation management practices along electric utility rights of way to prevent damage and wildfires all of these actions are a huge part of our work in providing reliable and affordable electricity to our consumer members
▶ 0:57:17to provide just one example a few years ago my Co-op applied for an approved jurisdictional determination within the US Army Corps of Engineers to determine whether a Clean Water Act permit was needed for a new electrical transmission switching station a very important new piece of infrastructure for us in the meantime just to be safe and to try to expedite the process we went ahead and applied for a Clean Water Act permit we did not receive a permit decision within the 9-month time frame initially predicted by the core resulting
▶ 0:57:48in a delayed start for our project then over a year after our original Clean Water Act permit application the core informed us that a Clean Water Act permit would not be needed for the project ultimately aecc was subjected to the core's application requirements construction delays and increased costs and the associated risks of A Clean Water Act permit denial for the core to determine that no Clean Water Act permit would be needed for the project a decision that could have easily been determined as early as aec's first
▶ 0:58:18meeting with the core one year earlier this is a pivotal time for my Co-op as we plan to meet the quickly growing demands of our members a more predictable and efficient process for securing those permits for our electric infrastructure would help us better meet those challenges thank you again for the opportunity to testify on this important issue I look forward to responding to any questions thank you
▶ 0:58:57we're going to move on to member questions now the chair now recognizes uh Mr Crawford for five minutes thank you Mr chairman appreciate that Mr Hassen wonderful to see a fellow aranson here today appreciate you being here um the Arkansas elector Cooperative Powers a huge part of my district as you know of the 17 co-ops in Arkansas I think that 10 of them are responsible in some capacity throughout my district for delivering power to constituents that I so it's incredibly important
▶ 0:59:27for my constituents to know that their federal government is working with their member-owned electricity provider in your testimony you mentioned that projects funded through usda's rural utility service Loan program to go through the NEPA process um should the project also require a core of engineer section 404 permit as well the core requires duplicative paperwork and studies to be done anpa and a 404 en environmental review for the same project seems to me the height of bureaucratic weight B in your experience in Arkansas
▶ 0:59:58Can you estimate how much time money staff hours Etc lost productivity could have been avoided and are saved had the core and USDA worked together on this instead of working separately well Congressman Crawford uh welcome from um yes what we see is uh different agencies interpret NEPA differently um so
▶ 1:00:28I think that to us is a challenge when you've got Rus on one side Army Corp of Engineers Department of energy fish and wildlife each have the purview to interpret NEPA how they want and then so that gives us uncertainty as to what exactly we're going to be exposed to uh when you get down into section 44 and maybe an example would be uh we we we know a Project's going to need a section 404 Clean Water Act permit we we're going to
▶ 1:00:58intend to fund it with R Us and so we work a lot with R Us so we know those requirements and and those may you know trigger the the the right reviews with their interpretation of NEPA and so we would go do a cultural survey or endangered species uh uh review or a Wetlands review and we complete all those and they go through a process for instance with a cultural survey uh review we would turn that into the State Historical preservation
▶ 1:01:29office the shipo that goes through a process let's say 60 days they would then share that with the tribes and so they I think they've got maybe 60 days to respond and so you can see you know you you've got months to build up here going through a proper process MH well once we then get where we need to and we turn that into the core they'll turn right around and take that same exact application and run it through the exact same process so it'll go back to the shipo
▶ 1:01:59it'll go back to the tribes and so you can just see it's a redundancy that's built in so right there you could say well that added two to four months sure just right there so you know we've we've addressed this to some extent we cified some aspects through the One Federal decision um piece in the fiscal responsibility act but was it enough do we need to do uh I think the more that can be done in any business to streamline and make processes efficiency
▶ 1:02:30so there's not wasted time mhm I would say yes okay let me I appreciate that let me Mr Mr hanners I'm going to shift gears real quick I'm glad to see you that you're here today new Corp is a big presence in my district and our aranson know firsthand your company's commitment to environmental responsibility and how you can coexist with economic productivity in fact you're entire business model is based on sustainability I want you to talk about that a little bit um some of the ways American Steel manufacturer can be Advanced through Common Sense environmental reforms and what effects that
▶ 1:03:00would have on environmental or economic development in communities like mine thank you for the question Mr Crawford and your your support and yeah thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about sustainability in new cor so if you look at our our process we we are the cleanest steel makers in the world and we are continually striving to innovate while benefiting Society both economically but then also achieving higher higher and higher levels of sustainability performance
▶ 1:03:30so I I come here with a lot of pride in the way our team thinks about caring for the environment at the same time building a project like our West Virginia Mill that will employ hundreds of Americans um but also thousands of contractors who come on site and then Untold numbers of people who are impacted by that project in the region so if you think about our West Virginia Mill we're building a mill that will be the clean steel production in the United States and it will employ hundreds and in
▶ 1:04:01you know by second and third order impact thousands of of Americans in that in that West Virginia region so we're very proud of that Legacy appreciate you thanks for being here you'll back thank you the chair now now recognizes U Miss Shulton for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and thank you uh to all of our incredible Witnesses uh for taking your time to be here today as I stated in my opening remarks water issues are not and should not be a partisan
▶ 1:04:31issue I hope I'm not alone in saying that I am deeply concerned with the president's efforts to freeze critical federal funds including dollars necessary to support our federal water infrastructure we all can agree that regulatory reform is needed Clarity is needed but what has happened in the last 10 20 days has been the opposite of clarity it has increased chaos
▶ 1:05:02and confusion this uncertainty could stifle all of the progress that this committee and Congress as a whole has made through historic legislation like the bipartisan infrastructure law stoking this kind of chaos will result in very tangible threats to every single community that is represented here at the Das commissioner larette can you speak a little bit to how some of the directly blocked funds as well as the uncertainty in federal funding is not only going to harm
▶ 1:05:32water infrastructure projects but also prevent local and state governments from looking ahead to fulfill their community's water needs I I appreciate this question my pause is because I'm thinking I'm thinking hard about it I mentioned in my testimony that we have a 1.2 trillion dollar need nationally over the next 20 years for drinking water infrastructure 31.6 billion
▶ 1:06:02of that is in New Jersey uh alone and we rely the states which are the ones that implement the investments in our infrastructure state governments do that not the federal government and what we see uh in New Jersey is an opportunity using those federal funds we couple them with State funds and then
▶ 1:06:32we use the governmental funds together to then leverage private Market funds so that we are able to create a capital stack for investment in water infrastructure that needs to be planned out for over the course of many years and so we have projects that are in the queue right now that are are uh phased meaning that one uh fiscal year you might do a a pump
▶ 1:07:03uh a pump station and the next year uh a main right and so when there is a disruption in federal funding or even just the uncertainty that is created by a suspected uh disruption and even a one it reverberates throughout the system what I mean by that is right now our state is in the process of formulating
▶ 1:07:33our clean water intended use plan for the next fiscal year which for US starts July 1 and that provides water utilities contractors uh and others with guidance about how they should be sequencing their projects such that A disruption in the federal funding source upon which all of that investment is built has a cascading effect that can lead to the delay certainly but potentially even the abandonment
▶ 1:08:04of a project right and here we are talking about water that every business every needs it's certainly critical uh in Michigan's thirdd congressional district I firmly believe that the US can have both a healthy economy and a healthy environment in fact through the Lakes Region I would argue that these two outcomes are wholly interconnected as I discussed in my opening remarks uh
▶ 1:08:34commissioner lerette again I know New Jersey is a little different from West Michigan Shoreline but can you speak to how water pollution can negatively impact community's economies with potential harm to the tourism industry property values and Commercial operations app appreciate that uh that question as well congresswoman so so tourism in particular is a huge driver of New Jersey's economy right our pristine beaches our quaint Shore towns bring in $50
▶ 1:09:04billion a year in tourism spending and all of that spending all of that tourism is dependent upon one thing clean waterways I grew up in the 1980s at a time when our parents didn't let us go to the beach in New Jersey because of high levels of pollution and today the Jersey Shore has the best water quality uh that we have ever seen and that is a function of
▶ 1:09:34implementation of the Clean Water Act as a matter of Permitting enforcement but also because of that investment Paradigm which since the beginning of our uh clean water uh investment strategy has created 170,000 one-year direct construction jobs right and so not only is the not only is the Clean Water Act a necessity in terms of the health of our waterways
▶ 1:10:04the health of our people but it promotes the very businesses that dot our um our Shoreline so imagine those businesses uh that dot the shoreline uh that rely on the influx of Tourism dollars imagine their uh struggles when they have to close a beach because of bad water quality and nobody visits and nobody
▶ 1:10:36spends thank you yield back the chair now recognizes uh Mr Fong for five minutes uh thank you Mr chairman uh for uh for calling this hearing and thank you for the witnesses uh for their input Mr Singletary I wanted to ask you a few questions uh I'm glad that you uh highlighted the need uh to clarify the section 401 certification process um want to get your input um in in regards to
▶ 1:11:07uh this specific area in California um it feels like we are constantly having to fight against our state Water Resources control board uh which has used its Authority provided under the Clean Water Act along with other state and federal environment laws to delay efforts to develop uh new water projects and actually undermine our ability to utilize the the infrastructure we have the result uh is less water delivered to our farms and communities in my district uh less clean and and Renewable hydrop Power
▶ 1:11:37uh generator for our grid and less water security for everyone who lives in our state uh there are numerous examples uh of of less water security and and um and for and and there are examples of the state water board issuing draft clean water act 401 certifications aimed at implementing a plan that calls for the flushing of billions of gallons of water out into the Pacific rather than storing it to mitigate drought impacts during dry years much of the time the
▶ 1:12:07requirements in these regulations have nothing to do with water quality or even the operation of the projects they're regulating and I have statements from the Modesto Turlock and Merced irrigation districts which neighbor my district that provide two very recent examples that paint the picture of what is happening all over California and I asked those uh that to be included in the record if I could ask you what advice you have for making sure that states are accountable to the spirit of the Clean Water Act when implementing these delegated authorities thank
▶ 1:12:37you Congressman for the question I I think that I mean it's kind of been a back and forth over the years different states have used utilized that 401 certification um in different ways sometimes it is um use the word weaponized against a specific project and how we use it in we use it specifically again to protect water quality resources within the state and we don't expand it beyond that um I think if there was some language in the Clean Water Act that specified that it was to be
▶ 1:13:08focused solely on water quality projects discharges water quality standards um those type of things list out specifically what those 401 certifications can be used for um that would probably limit some of the ability to take it Beyond those water quality impacts that um we feel that it's intended to cover do you have uh like specific um recommendations maybe delve a little deeper in terms of I mean how does it work in Oklahoma
▶ 1:13:38and then when you talk to other states um you know what guard rails would you want to put in you talking about specific language yeah I I don't have any specific language but I can propose some for you and get it to you do you I mean do you believe that the the bid administration's uh 2023 rule regarding 401 certifications do you do you believe that it expanded the extent to 401 uh review beyond the Congressional intent we do we we believe that there's the potential for that to be misapplied and go beyond
▶ 1:14:08impacts that are um clearly associated with a proposed project and um and taken to other you know Downstream activities that may occur as a result of a project but maybe aren't specifically related to that project we think that potential is definitely there and in in uh in your testimony you mentioned concerns about about third parties uh potentially seeking to to force states to address broader concerns outside the scope of of the Clean Water Act um if the current section 401 rule is left
▶ 1:14:39intact um you know how can you can you expound on that like give some specific examples sure I mean there's the potential if that broader application is allowed or broader scope of review is is permitted that even though in Oklahoma we want to talk those uh reviews or 401 certification review to specific water quality impacts coming from a proposed project um some third party who may have an interest in stopping that project could try and utilize our 401 review
▶ 1:15:09any decisions we make that's going to be subject to an appeal so they could take us to court and try and force us to um take that review further than uh how we believe it's intended well I I certainly appreciate uh your testimony I think the section 401 certification has been weaponized uh and to prevent needed water storage projects and and and energy projects we need to find that balance uh look forward to working with you and and the members of the committee to clarify um the 401 process and and streamline it as much as we
▶ 1:15:39can thank you uh uh uh Mr chair I you back the chair now recognizes uh the ranking M Mr Larson for five minutes thank you Mr chair uh Mr Anders I have a bit of a curveball for you because sorry and sorry about this because we have a new Corp facility in Seattle as well I don't know if it fits under sheet products or not but um I did note yesterday uh new cor uh said effective new orders received after close of business on February 10th uh will um the new cor bar
▶ 1:16:10group will increase prices by $40 per ton on all rebar products may not impact sheet products but it seems unusual or no coincidental that the day the president announced 25% tariffs on aluminum steel products coming to the United States that new core is announcing uh an increase on rebar products and I'm wondering if you know in fact if there's a relationship between the uh call for a 25% tariff on aluminum and steel Imports in the United States uh and this uh and this price
▶ 1:16:40increase so so to answer the first part of your question Congressman lson rebar products does not fall under my group my group sheet products Mr Spicer has rebar products that's right Mr Spicer so you you you know you know Randy it's it's a better question for him but will answer it at a high level in that we are uh very supportive of the actions taken by the president to impose tariffs um on All Steel products and we believe that there is a strong tie to National Security um
▶ 1:17:10okay I'm sorry it sounds like you're memorized something or reading I'm just wondering is there a relationship between these price increases and the and the um I can't comment on that in rebar okay I can't I I there there are a lot of unfairly dumped and traded Imports that into the country that are rebar but I can't comment on the direct relationship thanks a lot is there is there a similar price increase coming for Sheet products can't comment on that either I mean pricing has been increasing already if you if you look at Trends sheet pricing has been
▶ 1:17:40in a low point for the last quarter before any tariff action um so I think that there are other demand drivers that may contribute to prices moving up fair enough thank you I appreciate that very much um uh Mr single ter um in Oklahoma as in my state um certainly in New Jersey I'm sure we have local governments water districts using the state revolving fund money for infrastructure improvements alluded to this in my in my opening
▶ 1:18:11uh statement are are you right now aware of uh any pause on that money are you seeing impacts or hearing from your local water district or even sewer districts or uh other municipalities on whether the money is avail a or they're having to wait at all no in fact I've confirmed that it is the money is Flowing currently okay as recently as when I'm sorry as recently as when as recently as um uh last week beginning of last week yeah all right
▶ 1:18:41that's good um a lot a lot of other money has been paused and so we are we we we approved this money Congress did approve this money um there was a pause there was a startup for some not for others so yeah we're not getting really clear messages at all from the current Administration on what is moving forward and what isn't so I do appreciate that um do you want more of it of course all right that's probably the most important question we can an answer we can get uh from anybody I appreciate that
▶ 1:19:11very much and then um uh Mr lered I want to ask you about um forever chemicals and um what's your what's been your experience in controlling the discharge of pasas and in in New Jersey so New Jersey has been at the tip of the spear on posos issues dating back to 2006 we've did some of the first occurrence studies uh and and we have a prolific posos contamination problem in the state of New Jersey in part
▶ 1:19:42because of the manufacturing centers uh particularly in the southern part of the State uh but we first set standards to uh control for posos contamination in drinking water uh back in 2020 and we we put those standards in place before uh the federal government had acted um those standards are now applied to drinking water systems uh there are over 100 Drinking Water Systems in the state of New Jersey
▶ 1:20:12that have impacts from posos chemicals meaning uh to the point I had made earlier of um if we are not careful about our discharges into waterways and if we are not regulating them and enforcing that regulation inevitably that enters into the water cycle that which enters into the water cycle ends up coming into our drinking water uh systems and we must put treatment on it to remove it all
▶ 1:20:42right huge cost and quickly are you hearing from many New Jersey water systems or systems about State revolving fund money the impos at all what's your experience the way that our our intended use plans and our our um function can you give me a yes or no or get back to me not at this very moment no got it I'll get back okay thanks the chair now recognizes Mr herd for five minutes thank you Mr chair
▶ 1:21:13uh good morning to our Witnesses uh Mr haston am I pronouncing that right want to get that right um I represent Colorado's thirdd congressional district which covers about half of the land mass of the state and Rural Electric cooperatives are vital to my district just as they are to much of Rural America um when it comes to the distribution cooperatives that actually deliver power to Rural America whether in Arkansas your home state or in Colorado my home state who owns those
▶ 1:21:44cooperatives The Cooperative business model the uh the members we call them member consumers they're ultimately the owners of the Cooper uh all the you know as a CEO I'm charged with running the company I report to a board those Boards of directors come from these local communities uh that that serve these co-ops and so the board of directors comes from the community I report to that
▶ 1:22:14board and through that we run the Cooperative um but ultimately we look at the business model is all of this exists to serve our members in a cooperative fashion so just to be specific so the members at the distribution Cooperative level those are families those are small businesses those are ranchers is that correct they're the owners of those distribution coopera yes yeah all all the all all of the members of that community that we serve yes your testimony mentions the cost of complying with Federal permitting programs
▶ 1:22:44like section 404 permits Endangered Species Act particularly the the cost of delay when it comes to those costs of delay who pays for that in a co-op yes sir every cost I get ultimately gets passed directly on to those members the members of the community that we serve so it's a pass through so any cost that comes to us we're going to pass it right back on to the community that we serve so those get paid those additional costs get paid by the farmers the small business owners the families
▶ 1:23:14that are served by that Cooperative yes in the form of We Will We Will Set electric rates to cover the cost of service so in costs that we incur go into how much we have to charge for rates so yes indirectly through their electric rates they'll pay for any costs that are incurred in in making the power and getting it to them so Mr hon would it be fair to say that these permitting delays effectively act act as a hidden tax on Rural America yes
▶ 1:23:44thank you very much Mr chairman I yeld back the chair now recognizes uh Mr Gand five comments thank you Mr chairman it's a pleasure to be with you in your first hearing and u m you certainly stepped into the big issue right at the outset thank you for doing so um I think I'll go to a piece of legislation that bipartisan in this house
▶ 1:24:15that we've been working on for several years and it's an nepes and specifically Mr single ter you raised this issue early on uh that the permitted is presently a 5-year permit for um Municipal uh districts sanitation districts that gives them just about enough time to figure out what they're going to do and then they got to go get a new permit which means they go back through the whole cycle again the legislation we've been talking about is a 10-year permit period please comment on this you raised the issue early
▶ 1:24:46on certainly um just recognize all the effort it takes uh to submit an applic go through that permitting process allowing the state to expand the the terms of those permits you'd still have the same Environmental Protection um States you know have the authority to address any issues unforeseen issues that come up but it would provide some certainty for the the regulated entities they' have it for that longer period and it would like I said essentially cut that whole permitting process
▶ 1:25:16in half over that 10-year period you're only having to do it once instead of every five years because like you said by time you get a permit issued we're very close to it's not very much longer you have to start that process all over again and start planning for the next one so you did raise a piece of the uh concern and that is in that intervening 10year period there could very well be some extraordinary event uh unknown unforeseen that might cause or should should cause a new review I think you talked about
▶ 1:25:46that briefly or skipped right over it could you get to that a little more detail certainly certainly Congressman if if there was an issue that's discovered we still have the ability to address that through our um implementation and enforcement process but we can also trigger additional review and we can actually there's Provisions that allow us to require that permit to be amended to address those concerns if something's discovered I I rais this we're going to reintroduce this U bipartisan bill in the next few weeks and I draw
▶ 1:26:17the attention of the committee and the new chair to it I think it would be one of the ways in which we can expedite the permitting or reduce the amount of Permitting that's required so I let it go at that there are other issues um I suppose are a pound away on the impoundment uh issues that are out there uh do any of you have specific um examples of the way in which the current Trump impoundment of funds is affecting your District Mr Singletary
▶ 1:26:47go on down maybe Mr hammers I don't know Mr hon surely I'm sorry impoundment but this is the current impoundment of the federal funding oh the funding yes sir yeah um I think we in Oklahoma recognize uh the current administration's you know that they see a benefit in reviewing these funds um we hope that review goes quickly um we do think that the projects that come through us they're so critically important whether it's Wastewater
▶ 1:27:17or or um public water supply projects um that they're going to survive any review that occurs we think they are that essential to to Oklahoma and obviously the country we've heard from Mr hammers that delays cost money so you are seeing delays in Oklahoma on projects we are not seeing any delays at point could there be delays if this impoundment continues uh well right now the funding the the money is continuing to be released we have um we've
▶ 1:27:47reached out the EPA uh who kind of controls the pur strings for us and uh they let us know that all the funding sources that were involved in uh that that money is still flowing to those projects Mr lur and New Jersey so we saw some immediate implications from the the funding freeze a couple of weeks ago so much so that New Jersey took legal action uh in a court with other states in a court case with other states
▶ 1:28:18um and that uh that judge returned a decision that the funds could not be fro Frozen they continued to be Frozen and the court had to issue another order just yesterday uh reminding the president of complying with the law Mr haston examples from your state I don't have any examples where it's cost us any delay so we have a red State and a blue State interesting um maybe there's targeted
▶ 1:28:50impoundment uh I'm going to let it go I'm going to yield back my two seconds thank you Mr Mr chairman thank you the chairman now uh chair recognizes Mr Burleson for five minutes thank you Mr chairman it's good to see you up there congratulations um Mr hanners the Clean Water Act was enacted to restore the Integrity of our nation's Waters however um in recent years it's been um weaponized mostly by environmental zealots with a political agenda
▶ 1:29:20that goes far beyond the primary purpose of protecting water um do you agree that the Clean Water Act is straight from its original intent I can speak to our um what we've gone through at our West Virginia Mill Mill project um I appreciate the question Congressman um we started off with uh with an understanding of the core of engineers that we needed a a certain scope was going to be included in the in in the
▶ 1:29:51um permitting for this project so what happened Happ s or what happened in this situation and we've encountered another projects of this size and scope as we we navigate the 404 process is the scope that was initially explained to us and that we entered into change dramatically as we got further into the project so very frequently throughout the process we have other entities that are involved in doing a study whether that's um on artifacts we may come across whether that's on um um wetlands and those
▶ 1:30:21each of those different interfaces with the with the permit causes examples of U I can give you examples of very long delays related to each of those different different um directions of the permit so for a West Virginia permit for example or West Virginia project for example we we incurred hundreds of millions of dollars in additional loss attributed to the extend of this permitting process so it's an example of us we need certainty stability
▶ 1:30:51and consistency in the process if we know what to expect when we enter the process and we understand that the process is going to be timely and we we understand how to navigate the process we are we are fully on board with navigating a process that both provides us the opportunity to get a to get a a a project of that scope permitted but and also protects the environment how would you like to see that would would you prefer to have it streamlined so that all of those entities that might be affected are are you know asking for that research to be
▶ 1:31:21done concurrently or what what ideas are there to streamline that process the the states know best about their their water resources and our interactions at the state level have been have been very good they're responsive they're knowledgeable um if there is a question about how to navigate something we get a quick resolution on what steps we should take so I we believe that the we should get that process to the state level and also keep
▶ 1:31:51the states focused on their statute duty to prioritize water quality um as they navigate the process I know in my own state of Missouri I I would I would agree with you our Lo our state the Department of Natural Resources does a better job in the EPA however um our state and probably many states have an arrangement in place where they are required to enforce whatever
▶ 1:32:22the EPA has issued so we we had a lot of issues for example when it came to trior ethylene being in our water supplies there was a dispute as to what was per what what was acceptable levels of this product which I I guess this diesel cleaning fluid is basically what what it is or it's a a byproduct of that so as a what we determined was that when we tracked it down there wasn't a there wasn't a law that was
▶ 1:32:52put into place there was no one on the Federal level that that changed anything but a unelected official had issued a guidance document and that subsequently caused state of Missouri and I'm assuming many other states to change regulations radically it are you do you see that happening in other states we do we've experienced that with our West Virginia project another one we executed recently in Brandenburg and I I listening
▶ 1:33:22to Mr described his project early on WE described or we experienced very similar um challenge to what you just you laid out as well and the process that he he he nailed down during his project description yeah would seemed that we need to do something just universally up here to make a statement or put into into the law that it that Congress that the federal government unless it's an act of Congress or somebody who's elected making this decision
▶ 1:33:53the the force of a of an unelected official shouldn't carry the same weight so I think that we something that we ought to look into thank you my time has expired the chair now recognizes uh Miss Sykes for five minutes thank you to the chair and ranking member for holding this hearing today and kicking us off for the 119th Congress for the water and environment subcommittee I appreciate your leadership and the subcommittee and look forward to working with you both as we work to improve our nation's water infrastructure
▶ 1:34:24and ensuring access to clean water for the people of Ohio's 13th congressional district where I have the honor of representing it all across the United States of America the Clean Water Act exists for a reason on June 22nd 1969 the kyoga river caught on fire due to extreme pollution for the 13th time this poster next to me shows although I'm black and white what it looked like in Cleveland as a river caught on fire imagine a body of water catching on
▶ 1:34:54fire and this image which was taken of the fire in 1952 was publish published in Time magazine article covering the 1969 fire that helped catalyze a movement protect our Waters and our planet ultimately leading to the creation of Earth day which is on April 20 April 22nd and in a movement around protecting water in a much more substantial and meaningful way uh you all know on this committee how much I love to brag on my district and particularly uh my home state of Ohio
▶ 1:35:24and this is not something that we could brag about but thankfully the bad news was not the last news for Ohio or for this country because this movement also led to the creation of the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency and after much biop partisan collaboration the passage of the Clean Water Act in 1972 I take some exception to some some of the testimony I heard today about the Clean Water Act and enforcing it because it's been very hard hard for our Cleveland I don't
▶ 1:35:54represent Cleveland to shake off the misnomer the mistake on the lake and it has reverberated for generations to come so it is important that we protect water not just for this Century this generation but Futures to come so we don't see other mistakes on the lake or whatever you want to call it and so now the kaga river uh which runs through my district through the kaga Valley National Park and it is one of the most visited national parks in the United States it took 20 years and $3.5
▶ 1:36:24billion dollar in infrastructure Investments to clean up the kyoga river and to allow nature to return to its Shores something that we are still working on every single day this underscores what it costs when we don't protect our Waters in The billions of dollars we can save by investing in clean water in water infrastructure before disasters strike and so that's why I'm such a proud support of the bipartisan infrastructure law which has authorized over 17 billion dollar for communities Nationwide to imp improve
▶ 1:36:55America's water infrastructure now one of the largest Investments that we've received was in the City of Canton uh to modernize some of its water systems but I I do want to talk about the impact on the federal freeze and this PA and review strategy because this is significant and I I know we don't always like to talk about our history but history will repeat itself if we continue to make the same mistakes and so Mr lared as a a state leader uh who who is tasked with protecting your waterways
▶ 1:37:26and and the infrastructure can you talk about uh what the bipar infrastructure law has done for communities mid and small-sized communities like akan and Canton where I represent and how this freeze or the pause and review strategy is impacting the ability to keep our waterways clean thank you thank you for that congresswoman for the question uh the bipartisan infrastructure law uh in the water space brought about a billion dollars over 5 years to the state of New Jersey and
▶ 1:37:56I mentioned before that we had uh we have a need for water infrastructure investment that's nearly 32 uh billion dollars over 20 years and I make that comparison because while the bipartisan infrastructure law was historic in its the scope size and scope of its investment in our infrastructure it is nowhere near enough and we have to continue making uh the Investments we should fully federally fund
▶ 1:38:27the Clean Water State revolving fund to its amount because what we are able to do uh in New Jersey when we have a greater amount of federal funding and there is not the Spectre of risk that it will not be there for us when the next cycle of intended use planning is right around the corner what we're able to do with it is turn that $1 billion into $4
▶ 1:38:57billion with the way that we leverage our uh State funds and the private funds we bring in Mr I'm so sorry to cut you off because I could sit and listen to you talk about State revolving fund for hours but I only have two seconds left and I want to make sure I make a point that this poster is again indicative of what happens if we don't act I believe in permanent for reform we should and we can do better but their next Frontier is pest and I've seen a lot of the testimony um hitting against it and trying to keep us from
▶ 1:39:27uh ensuring that we're keeping our water safe let's not let this happen again uh and let's commit to working with one another to find appropriate permitting form and ways to keep our Waterway safe thank you Mr Mr chair I appreciate you giving me a couple extra moments and I Y back the chair now recognizes uh Mr H for five minutes thank you Mr chairman um Mr haston in your testimony you underscored the import importance of Rural Electric co-ops and providing power
▶ 1:39:57especially to rural areas um in your home state and in Missouri co-ops play a very vital role in our infrastructure and supplying power uh to those communities um can you describe how inefficient clean water permitting uh adds to costs which which are already higher for Rural Electric consumers than um than than if the permitting process were more um efficient and
▶ 1:40:27sensible Congressman thank you for the question and for eight years I made Power in Missouri for their electric co-ops I'm very familiar with the co-ops in your state uh it's delays uh you if you have an expected sort of timeline right so the projects that we do if I wanted to build a new power plant today even the simplest power plant uh a simple natural gas power plant it's a fiveyear process right
▶ 1:40:58you know and so we we layer in all of the planning and all of the you know when we need to put in for permits and and when we need to invest in infrastructure well if you buy things let's say very expensive Capital infrastructure and you you've got this expected timeline when it goes in service but then it doesn't so imagine uh uh $500 million power plant that doesn't go online everything's sitting there and you're gaining interest during construction
▶ 1:41:28right all of that's just adding to the cost that thing's not creating any benefit you're not putting power out to to members or to to supply load generate Revenue to make it a useful asset so it's on that scale that these delays just add cost right not to mention staff hours you know Consultants lawyers at those are just administrative fees that add up up and as the congressman from Colorado had mentioned every one of those as a co-op
▶ 1:41:58I'm passing that right on to the people that I serve in my communities they're paying for it I'm just a conduit so in your experience um dealing with the state of Arkansas on permitting how does that compare with your your experience uh dealing with the federal government the the EPA and the Army Corps of Engineers uh I would say that for Section 401 on in section 402 permits we are lucky in the state of Arkansas
▶ 1:42:29that the adq Arkansas enir Department of Environmental Quality has is able to uh control those you know they've been delegated that authority to to do that yes my experience with them is outstanding yes they're my regulator yes they tell me I have to do things that are like oh you know that's hard to do sure but there's a partnership so I'm trying to serve the Community I'm trying to serve Economic Development I'm trying to do that they they've got their job to do
▶ 1:42:59and but but you feel that sense of partnership so if they tell me it's going to be 60 days I get it in 60 days if they do it sometimes they get it to me faster so a real partnership good communication when we go to section 404 and we're working with federal agencies uh it is I would say generally poor communication or ignored communication or continual emails and calls from us to get anyone to answer the phone type of communication and to say that it's a bit of the runaround
▶ 1:43:29instead of partnering together to say look this is important clean water is important we got these rules how do we comply uh working with our Arkansas Department I would also say I've worked with Oklahoma great worked with Missouri DNR I've worked with Iowa DNR I've had great experiences with all those state agencies good would you get the federal level there's a certain sense of we the law where the top yes what we say goes no questions asked and I don't really feel compelled to you know I don't have
▶ 1:44:00to do this on under timeline other than what I want and your project isn't really a timeline that means anything to me yeah you must at times wonder whether this is really the law that you're hearing about or the um opinion of some unelected bureaucrat what it from from your perspective what would be the impact on electric co-ops if Nationwide permitting were not reauthorized if it was not reauthorized not reauthorized it would be it would be detrimental very detrimental
▶ 1:44:30I mean there's a lot of things we do under Nationwide permits right uh transmission line maintenance right away clearing re recovering from storms sure so if every every single thing we did that needs to be in some way sort of time sensitive yes if it had to go through the full review and and some things need to go through that full review right but a lot of of things do not and if if you got rid of those it would be really damaging thank you I yield back the chair now recognizes uh Mr fredman
▶ 1:45:00for five minutes thank you chair Collins and vice recking members Scolton I'm very honored to be a member of the subcommittee water is hugely important in my area in California and Los Angeles I served on the Metropolitan Water District Board of Directors for eight years and sat on the water Committee in the California legislature and I'm really looking forward to working with all of you on water issues um the health of our families and our economy and local water bodies and wetlands depends on robust investment in water infrastructure
▶ 1:45:30and strong water standards and I've been very interested to hear today about the sometimes tension between Environmental Protections and economic development and moving projects forward and certainly everybody wants to make sure that any regulation that we have moves quickly that that entities that are looking for permitting and the regulated Community um have have a process that is fair that moves rapidly um and that makes sense but at the same time I do
▶ 1:46:00want to push back a little bit about you know some of the terms that I've heard like radical environmental activist I don't think that it's radical for families to want to make sure that their children are not drinking pias chromium 6 lead and other harmful materials it's certainly not radical for the people of Los Angeles to be very frustrated that when we have our droughts like we have every year that we can't drink from the giant aquafer that's under Los Angeles because of
▶ 1:46:32pollution and I think that it also for those of us who want government to be efficient really bristle at wasting billions of dollars every year cleaning up pollution air pollution water pollution pollution of the ground from industries that could have been prevented from causing this pollution in the first place through strong Environmental Protections and environmental regulations so it's not at all at odds for those of us who want efficiency and economic development
▶ 1:47:02to also demand strong regulation to prevent that kind of waste to prevent the human cost and human health impacts from not regulating which we have seen happen so far over the years now the recent Supreme Court ruling in sacket versus EPA to exclude certain Wetlands from the definition of Waters from the United States pushes back decades old regulation and and makes fewer Wetlands to be covered under the Clean Water Act since
▶ 1:47:32since the 1970s the ruling excluded ephemeral Waters and intermittent Waters both of which are incredibly important to California because of the way our hydrology Works in fact 90% of California's original wetlands have already been destroyed and the Trump Administration Stripped Away Environmental Protections in their last Administration and there's every indication that they want to do so again that would be harmful to our pocketbooks and certainly harmful to Public Health I was proud in the California legislature to have passed AB
▶ 1:48:032875 which codified the executive order from Governor Pete Wilson to establish a state policy of no net loss of wetlands and only long-term gain and I'm proud to say that that bill was bipartisan that it was supported by Republicans and Democrats alike who recognize the importance of these resource resources commissioner Lorette I want to thank you for being with us today can you just maybe briefly speak to the importance of the Clean Water Act and a robust Environmental Protections um to the state of New Jersey thank you
▶ 1:48:33for the question I think we have to recognize that every single thing we do uh across our landscape every single thing we build how we operate our businesses how we run the government always has an environmental externality everything has an environmental externality the question that I think we should be asking ourselves is how do we reduce those externalities such that it's not a great cost to business because when those externalities
▶ 1:49:03are not addressed at the beginning they become a cost necessarily to someone else harming someone's Health diminishing our recreational and Commercial Fisheries right because the the externality that is wrought by a lack of adequate pollution control on Wastewater discharge has to be addressed somewhere else because there is only one water and it is all connected and so
▶ 1:49:34if we are not reducing our pollutant loadings to waterways the public the taxpayer is going to be left holding the bag such that that pollution is then remedied by a drinking water system right for example so we I believe have to look at this more holistically and not only as a cost center to any one particular regulated
▶ 1:50:04actor thank you very much I yeld back the chair now recognizes Mr Westerman for five minutes thank you chairman Collins and thank you to the witnesses for being here today and uh I'm just going to keep rehashing something that's been talked about a lot something I'm going to start with a story that I've talked about a lot that doesn't really deal with with clean water but it deals with a broken process I think if my staff wants me to uh wake up in the morning they they give me a lot
▶ 1:50:34of coffee and they schedule meetings with people who are frustrated with their our permitting process and this morning I had a first meeting was with the county executive from back home in Arkansas who was telling me about how long it took him to to get a permit from the Corp of Engineers to uh to build build a bike trail little section of bike trail and ended up having to uh go to Vicksburg from Little Rock even though there's a A Little Rock District right
▶ 1:51:05there close by and then uh then I the pleasure of meeting with fhwa on a road project that I'm going to keep talking about this if I live long enough and get keep getting reelected until they get the project finished but we had a road wash out for four Service Road wash out in 2020 and then another Landslide on the road in uh 2022 and they they have $6 million to study and fix the
▶ 1:51:35project and they're they the best date they could give me this morning was 2027 so we're looking at six or seven years to fix a 1 acre Landslide on a Gravel Road in the National Forest that's causing people to have to go 30 and 40 minutes out of the way to get to school to uh to get to the hospital there's a uh a concessioner on the for service land that uh his business has been hurt by this and it's
▶ 1:52:05all because we have a broken permitting process so fhwa they're doing what the forest service wants to do because they're dealing with emergency funding and that doesn't come out of the for service budget so instead of building a road around the slide there having to repair the slide so we're talking about $6 million to fix a gravel road and if you stand back and look at it you think this has no environmental benefit it's uh it's just the bureaucracy
▶ 1:52:36that's dealing with um an Antiquated system so I ask why does the for service not want you to build a road around it well we have to go through uh uh at least an EA and maybe an environmental impact statement through the NEPA process but if we go where the road already is we can just do a a CE well my question is why do you have to do a CE to fix a road that's been there for a long time I mean there's no common sense in these laws and I don't
▶ 1:53:06totally fault the bureaucrats I fault Congress for not fixing the system and that's uh Mr Collins and I serve on another committee that has jurisdiction over NEPA and I think there's going to be a good bipartisan effort this Congress to to fix the problems with with NEPA and you know in talking to fhwa they they said the you know the worst group to deal with is core of engineers if you got to do a a permit with core of engineers so we we need
▶ 1:53:36broad permitting reform and we'll just start at the end and if you got one suggestion on permitting reform uh you know we want to protect the environment but we want a streamline process where we can actually build stuff in America again if I had one suggestion I would I would give States more authority to implement the programs and kind of make changes to the programs as as is necessary within their states we uh a lot of times they're much closer to the projects we have a lot more at stake
▶ 1:54:07um for some of them because they're happening in our state um we can be a lot more responsive um sometimes when you know we're working with our counterparts our federal counterparts they may not be located in fact almost none of ours are actually located within the states so we're we're dealing with Folks at distance um and sometimes that can slow down the process Mr lur I agree with with my colleague here from Oklahoma
▶ 1:54:37that State Environmental agencies uh are more present and in the work with the regulated actor than federal agencies are unquestionably New Jersey has maximum assumption under almost every one of the Federal Environmental laws uh and then we add additional protections because that's what our public demands and we are able to trim permitting timelines down
▶ 1:55:07as a function of everything living Under One Roof we have an office called the office of Permitting and project navigation for example that they exist to Steward projects through the r regulatory process so as to not uh land in one of the gaps that folks have identified uh here today and so I believe maximum State assumption but that needs to be funded by by Congress right
▶ 1:55:37categorical grants to State Environmental agencies need to go up Mr chair if it's okay if the uh other Witnesses would submit a written answer to that I would appreciate it I'm obviously out of time and I you'll back yeah I'll probably finish with that question myself uh the chair now recognizes Miss po for five minutes thank you thank you Mr chairman um and thank you to all the witnesses that are here today we've heard and much
▶ 1:56:08as been said that over the over the 50 years the Clean Water Act has served to reduce pollution and waterways across this nation with the passage of time it is easy to forget why the law was enacted in the first place Lakes were filled with chemicals streams were clogged with with sewage and we heard earlier testimony or comments about how Rivers were literally
▶ 1:56:38on fire our environment and public health has changed for the better thanks to the bipartisan uh uh water uh Clean Water Act um I'd like to to men mention and to ask commissioner L tette you know New Jersey is an excellent example of how states can improve efficiency in the permitting process could you please share with us what are some of the best practices from New Jersey that you would
▶ 1:57:08recommend to other states so the first thing that I would recommend uh is that we support federally uh the Assumption of the program we've talked about here today by states that the federal government increase its funding to States for implementation our state employers are cheaper than your federal employees and I think that that is an important Point uh and they're closer uh to the to to the work on the ground
▶ 1:57:39um and what we have seen uh in the state of New Jersey is a greater degree of efficiency and speed because of that integration of pering processes now I know we've heard a lot today about um delays uh costing time costing money and and then that can be a problem I I recognize that that can be a problem uh but permitting reform isn't just one thing when we say that it's taken seven years to get this project permitted
▶ 1:58:09uh the there are local state and federal considerations the most important thing that any regulated actor can do and I know this because I counselled them as a lawyer uh in the private sector before is to run all of their processes concurrently there are so many issues that you can identify upfront and then talk to your state regulated entity uh regulated agency beforehand ever right well before you ever make a permit application
▶ 1:58:40because we're there to work with you and identify any of the flags way up front and when you do that upfront your permitting process is far more expedient thank you for that can you also share with us how Ure and water uh clean water for our communities pay dividends in terms of savings in other areas like public health and contributing to the economy so aside from creating the 170,000 construction jobs that I
▶ 1:59:10mentioned our water Bank Investments uh help to make our waterways more swimmable and more fishable directly bearing on our tourist tourism and recreational econ but there are really important Public Health uh issues at work here take for example in the northeastern SE section of New Jersey where there are uh communities built out 15 years ago with really dated
▶ 1:59:40old infrastructure combined sewers that bring together the storm water and the sanitary water all going through pipes that are not big enough and then what happens backups of that that sewage into our streets that our children have to walk through on their way to school that is not okay right and by making more investment we can both increase permitting timelines but get more projects in the ground thank you first of all thank you very much for responding
▶ 2:00:10to that question because my very own city of Patterson knows all too well what that impact is like particularly when we're talking about combined Source systems and and how Antiquated they are and how costly they can be having this in place is certainly going to be very helpful thank you very much for your for your remarks I I yield back Mr chairman thank you the chair now recognizes himself for five minutes um Mr ters new core
▶ 2:00:41says your largest most Diversified steel producer in the United States carbon footprint roughly 10% of the particular emissions to the average steel uh Mill out there 95 % less water than the average steel mill 86% of your process uh is the water is uh processed Force discharge I think it's safe to say that new cor wants to be the best in the industry high are the best people take care of the environment and overall
▶ 2:01:11be the best Steward that you can be uh so I want to I want to kind of delve into something real quick I read through a lot of your testimony here and and I want to get into your West Virginia project project because I I I want I live by example I'm a I'm a just a common sense type person you give me an example of what's going on I can better understand it I want to kind of look at the loading dock and the barge problem that you had there and I don't know how much you can speak on it but I do know that in Reading here it caused your project to go from 2.7 billion to 3.5
▶ 2:01:41billion and I kind of if you could I don't know if you can intertwine some nwp the na Nationwide permitting in that would that have helped not helped since this is obviously not the first loading Doc and Bar doc that you uh have ventured on certainly I appreciate the the question you're right we are as passionate about the environment and continuing to innovate to find cleaner ways to make steel you you'd be astounded at our team at any of our sites you you visited it is it is part of our culture to find new ways to better serve the environment
▶ 2:02:12um to your questions about West Virginia the port facility is one example there are others of us finding a specific instance in this this case is muscles in the water in the Ohio River West Virginia and then really struggling to find a solution to partner with the with the entity in this case the core of engineers and the official wildlife department to create a solution and it wasn't that we weren't we weren't um ready to make the investment to create the solution it's that we couldn't get clarity on
▶ 2:02:42what the solution needed to be and that's where the boundaries and and where we we think reform could come in and really help us uh be much more efficient and on time and on budget with a project like this is we we're willing to make the Investments necessary to meet our responsibilities to the environment but we need to know what they are we need Clarity and we need the the ability to take action in the way that's expected of us as long as as long as the permitting process is consistent and it's clear to us what we need to do and we can get the answers
▶ 2:03:13and responses we need in a timely manner we we are we are fully on board with making those Investments and making those changes so so you're po about the 2.7 billion 3.5 billion over 3.5 billion now that was one instance but I could I could list off five or six others that were very similar to them well let me asking kind of what chairman West was was asking uh when he said the one big change if you can make one change and and I know the two gentlemen to your to your right suggested more state rights and believe me I'm big on state right I
▶ 2:03:43mean it's a whole lot better than having this place up here make decisions for you but would you say clarifying regulations or State's rights would be or or something else so State's rights yes the state entities we work with they're responsive they're thorough that we partner with them it feels like a partnership um but but I would also add judicial review limiting judicial review we we are fully on board with complying but we need resolution and sometimes we will get Midnight last day
▶ 2:04:13of the the permitting process we will get somebody who will drop in a a challenge and then we'll need to extend the per the permit in order to to to go after that challenge I mean to break it I know in highways and Transit a lot of your road builders just factor in an extra 30% of the cost uh to build roads and bridges just because of environmentalist frivolous lawsuits is there a number do y'all add into the equation no we we don't account for that upfront but I'll tell you what happens is when we have
▶ 2:04:43bad experiences a challenging experience like West Virginia it makes us more conservative with our next iteration of how we think about the returns we're going to generate on a process which makes us less uh likely to make an investment in the future right we we are we're a successful company we we plan to continue to grow but it does it does take a little bit of our um willingness to make that next investment it makes us ask more questions to be more conservative Mr ton I want to give you 30 seconds you if to answer uh chairman westerman's
▶ 2:05:13question what what out there would you like to change first if you had the option I'll agree with everyone else that said you know push as much down to the States as you can they're in the local community they know they know the situation and there's more of a partnership and then I would think at the federal level just some consolidation you got all these individual foms all trying to you know determine things in in in an individual way uh and with no real accountability like in my company if I tell you
▶ 2:05:43I want this in 30 days in 30 days I'm going to send you an email and say where's it at and you will be held accountable there's no accountability anywhere just some accountability set some clear deadlines we're not asking for anybody to lower the hurdles keep the hurdles High keep the standards High keep the water clean but let's run the race and and let's hold people accountable to timelines thank you thank you and I you back to chair now uh is five minutes to miss Gillan for
▶ 2:06:14questioning uh thank you uh chairman and uh thank you to our Witnesses for coming and testifying today uh Mr LED in your testimony you highlighted how under Section 404 of the Clean Water Act project applicants were often challenged to adhere to two different but overlapping permitting processes processes at both the state and federal level can you talk about some of the ways that we can streamline the permitting process to get rid of duplicative um and redundant requirements uh but yet
▶ 2:06:44keep strong Environmental Protections in place yeah I think one of the the biggest things that we can do is to provide states with the uh incentive to uh adopt the federal programs and Implement them on behalf of the federal government now that doesn't give States a free pass let's be clear it the states are still overseen and should be by the USA uh and in some instances
▶ 2:07:14uh the Army Corps to ensure that we are compliant with the minimum federal standard but bringing it down to the state level would necessarily have a beneficial impact as Folks up here have have recognized uh but that does not mean compromising Environmental Quality and I'm glad to hear everybody uh up here speak to that point right because we we have to acknowledge that the pollution controls uh that EPA sets are minimums truly minimums they
▶ 2:07:45would not they are not acceptable in the state of New Jersey uh and it they don't allow us to be proactive about uh new pollutants that are emerging in the marketplace and in our water supplies yes just following up on that um you know I I I want to get rid of redundancies in our permitting processes I was a local uh government official before I got here and I know that sometimes we could get caught up as you say Mr hanners in litigation forever just trying to get a project
▶ 2:08:15across the finish line but we do have states with varying standards so that's why when I hear states rights and things like that some states don't have the same uh standards that others do um Mr hanners in your uh written testimony I was not here for your verbal testimony but you talked about emerging contaminants and some of the standards may be too high well we know that these are carcinogens and I certainly don't want my family drinking carcinogens I don't want other people's families drinking carcinogens and I do know the real costs
▶ 2:08:45of filtering these emerging contaminants out of our system but I think that we need to agree that we have to have a very high standard when we're trying when we're talking about water containing these emerging contaminants so what do you think is the best way forward to get some uniform agreement so we can streamline the permitting process Mr hanners well I I'll I'll say that manufacturing processes like ours new core but I can speak more broadly are cleaner than ever and we strive to find new technology to make it even cleaner and
▶ 2:09:15I can give examples like a carbon sequestration project we're navigating Louisiana where it will make a material impact the cleanliness of our steel we're making those Investments we're working on those things all the time the challenge with with the the in or the um you know the new regulation you mentioned PM 2.5 is we need a seat at the table because some of those standards are are either unclear or we're not sure how to manage that problem and if we have a seat at the table during the implementation or the build of that of that
▶ 2:09:45of that policy then we can we can help um one equip us with a better understanding of how to navigate that but to potentially potentially push back or help shape something that achieves an outcome of making the environment cleaner but also is feasible and implementable by companies like ours and manufacturers like ourselves thank you um Mr single ter I believe in your written testimony you spoke a bit about how the permitting process was also uh Complicated by multiple different agencies weighing and I think
▶ 2:10:15that's also the litigation that you spoke about in your testimony Mr hanners uh what is a way that that you think that we could streamline the permitting process with giving a seat at the table to all the different uh various agencies that might be involved in a big project or might have some impact on a big project your question I'm sorry congresswoman was regarding multiple agencies in the same process I think um making sure that the
▶ 2:10:46the role of each of the agencies is you know well defined and coordinated um is probably the biggest issue I can tell you um when we look at our permitting program at the agency we I mean we're we're looking Beyond just what coordination with other agencies is like we're looking we've got an office of continuous Improvement that's gone through every step that we take internally to help you know determine what are the slowdowns in our process that are caused by us how can we improve those
▶ 2:11:16um we're we're getting big investments into different platforms associ or uh we need for the permitting process updating a Ru making um and potentially some legislation to help streamline our process I think something like that at the federal level would really help coordinate all those efforts thank you so much I yield back thank you ma'am the chair recognizes representative lamalfa thank you Mr chairman thank you panelists for being here with us today as we talk about the Clean
▶ 2:11:46Water Act and it's well-intentioned back in the 70s when passed and it's weaponization these days to stop so many projects and other things beyond the scope of what I think was ever intended and been reinterpreted according to Army Corp and others so um we talk about the different uh permits the 402 permit under nepd National pollutant discharge elimination system um all
▶ 2:12:16pollutant discharges into a water of the US are prohibited unless that 402 is granted so uh this for private sector as well as Federal um and we talk about a 404 permit for dredge fill on something called the Waters of the US which uh the definition of water of the US has been abused greatly in the last 20 years or so um and when we're talking about dredge permits for example I can think of an really absurd example where there was
▶ 2:12:46a new bridge being constructed where the some of the pilings had to be with in a lake and U so they had to move some of the soil to build the new the new uprights and so that soil being moved that was now considered a pollutant even though it's the same soil that was started out under the water and could have just been moved aside and remained under the water instead had to be hauled away who knows what expense and delay so um the 402 again
▶ 2:13:16is uh being abused and the concern I want to bring up here is um how that applies to firefighting and what forest service has been looking at with um requiring a permit uh to use the material for fighting fires the uh the um the fire retardant that is so extremely important to be more effective in fighting and preventing the spread of fire you know I mean again we've seen it time and again with the fires
▶ 2:13:46in the West in my home state of California in my own District the community of paradise destroyed community of Greenville destroyed uh town of Happy Camp partly destroyed others and then what's really gotten a lot of people's attention obviously it's what happened in Los Angeles here so far even though it can be known that um each year you're going to have the sand Ana winds you have the Brushy hillsides they suspend removal of a brush and that's partly right where where we are in
▶ 2:14:17SoCal so uh when we talk about the use of fire retardant that's the pink stuff that gets dropped out of the aircraft and the dc1s the helicopters and all that when it isn't just straight water we have to work to hang on to that so um there was a lawsuit uh incredibly Environmental Group sued the forest service a couple years ago to stop the use of that and in 23 uh the force Court ruled the forest service violated the C clean act Water Act by
▶ 2:14:47failing to get an mpds to use it so the Court declined to use an injunction to completely stop the use of retardant but at any moment it could be taken away so for Mr hanners um we've we've never seen this before where Forest Service had to get this npdes permit for applying the retardant um my understanding is that they may make both aerial fire retardant and airplan airplanes used to file
▶ 2:15:17firefighters um somehow have to use it have have to battle through this lawsuit process so would you would you talk to us about this a little bit Mr handers or it's it would have to come from either EPA or C jump through the Hoops of California and it can take a very long time we could lose this product if they get their way would you please comment on that a little bit certainly I can't comment on the specifics of fire retardance and and and uh that policy the decision you you're
▶ 2:15:48um referencing but I can say for a manufacturer like new cor Across America it's important we have a robust supply chain of of fire retardants and I think more importantly a little bit more broadly we understand the rules of usage of not just fire retardants but um navigating a permit process or using a a a a new type of um or even even a well-used type of of consumable we may use in our process well if we were had to go straight water if you
▶ 2:16:18didn't have this material which has a sticky factor to to it and can and last longer water just coming out of an aircraft can so especially in hot weather as it hits out fire completely dissipate if we don't have this material how effective are we going to be at suppressing or controlling the spread of fire I can't comment on that can't comment on it all right um should Congress look at clarifying the Clean Water Act to ensure these activities continue to be done M handers
▶ 2:16:48could could you repeat the question should Congress look at clarifying the Clean Water Act to ensure these activities such as a application continue without this owner permit I can't comment on that the chair recognizes representative Norton thank you Mr chair uh this is
▶ 2:17:19a question for Mr led the District of Colombia the nation's capital which I represent has greatly benefited from federal investments in our water infrastructure over the last decade the DC Water and Sewer authorities multi-billion doll clean rivers project is is expected to reduce combined sewer overflows
▶ 2:17:49in the district's Waterway 96% by 2030 uh Mr L vet how do investments in clean water infrastructure improve public health and grow the economy I believe the question is how do clean water investments improve the environment and
▶ 2:18:19the economy and and grow the economy yeah so the first thing that I'll say is the clean water investments first and foremost protect public health and the environment our first job is always protecting the health of our residents and when we have uh discharge uh into waterways that is uh that that is above uh any of our state or federal
▶ 2:18:49standards there is a risk of uh Public Health exposure that's that's what this all is based upon so first and foremost the investments in clean water are helping to protect People's healths Health and their lives and then in addition to that value we we have a growing economy in the state of New Jersey right we're continuing to build out our state with new businesses that rely on Sewer Service expansions no
▶ 2:19:19sewer service no new uh multi- uh family residential projects no new uh no new uh business expansions into AI or uh other sectors that we're focused on and so those Investments are critical right it is the bones upon which our entire economy is based thank you uh this is another question for you Mr L who were at um the river
▶ 2:19:50provid Ides over 75% of the N of the national capital Region's drinking water and is the only drinking water source for DC and parts of Northern Virginia which have just one day of backup water supply which poses a risk to residents of the national capital region the Region's economy and the National Security uh what
▶ 2:20:20are are the immediate longterm uh implications of pausing and Federal funding for critical Clean Water Investments I think that the impact of those in the impact of pausing Federal funding uh scrutinizing It Whatever the the words that that are being used to describe
▶ 2:20:50what happening um the the implications are exactly what we're hearing folks talk about from the perspective of business and industry about permits holding up projects uh and delaying economic growth the same is true uh for a a either an intended accidental temporary whatever we call it pause on federal funding uh to the states that are
▶ 2:21:20funding these water infrastructure projects um and we need them now more than ever I'm glad you point out the issue of water supply Congressman congresswoman because in New Jersey we lack the in many places the cont the the continuity that is necessary to make sure we have several days of water availability where there to be an issue with a major water source like your explaining
▶ 2:21:51and that investment is critical to solving that allocation need thank you very much Mr lered and I back thank you the chair recogniz recognizes representative Taylor thank you chairman and ranking member for holding this hearing today and thank you to our Witnesses for their testimony and insight with the Ohio river running through my district I want to ensure the federal government implements policies that utilize the river's resources to support businesses and
▶ 2:22:21people while creating jobs and economic opportunities which we desperately need I'm excited to work with members of this committee to pass meaningful legislation and a strong word of Bill that allows the United States to prosper previous administrations have implemented several regulations related to the Waters of the United States or wus through red tape and litigation these wus regulations have hindered States businesses and energy producers from carrying out simple projects Mr hon in your testimony you highlighted how the AR Electric Cooperative
▶ 2:22:51Corporation received a streamlined Nationwide permit 3 which took 9 months to get causing damage to your hydropower plant I'm confident that a streamline to permit should not have taken nine months to complete based on your expertise what would a normal time frame have been thank you Congressman I think it depends on the work so there's different permits uh I think in our estimation given that it's
▶ 2:23:21a existing structure everything we were asking for was to return it to the design condition uh the fact that the Arkansas River is an extreme Water Resource that adds a a level of additional scrutiny so that scrutiny takes some time but I think in our in our estimation and planning you know we would have thought for a nationwide permit to do a repair on a weir which is uh there to prevent cavitation
▶ 2:23:52of the uh of well it acts in a way to prevent cavitation of the turbines which if you don't take care of that can affect reliability we would have thought you know 60 to 90 days uh 30 days uh it's in that time frame definitely not nine months and uh and then the challenge is is when you finally get it it is valid for 5 years so that's a good thing but these conditions in the river that allow
▶ 2:24:23maintenance you're sort of at the whim of it's God in nature as to when that'll occur and if it doesn't happen in the next five years and we have to go through the same process you see how we could keep missing the boat gotcha with a 9month approval process for maintenance repairs on existing energy produ projects what does this Administration and Congress need to do to eliminate some of these burdensome requirements I think definitely continue ation of these Nationwide programs
▶ 2:24:53which the intent of those is streamlined reviews maybe set some clearly defined timelines on what those are and you know maybe push us to say hey let's do the right thing but let's do it in a in a more efficient fashion uh increased coordination between the different agencies right instead of it just being a a scattergram of confusing requirements as Mr Hanner said we're not sure what you have to uh comply with
▶ 2:25:24something that requires you know a singular Source a singular you know somebody's the lead agency but there's an answer here's the answer we know what it is and we know what to do uh I think also from Arkansas so you know razor backs uh I shouldn't want to put up a transmission line and find a hog wallow out there where the wild hogs have been digging around and there's some mud and some water and then have to wonder if that's a water of the US but I do have
▶ 2:25:54wonder and I have to hire Consultants to come tell me if a pig wallow in the middle of a field as Waters of the US and so the sacket decision I think tried to eliminate some of that lack of Common Sense and good environmental science but I think we still have very broad determinations of what are Waters of the US and so in my opinion adhering to what the Supreme Court said and requiring federal agencies to comply with that and let's get clear definitions
▶ 2:26:25Waters of the US waterways as I've heard other testimony we want to protect the water but a mud wallow in the middle of a field that stops a transmission line when I've got a huge lithium deposit in Arkansas that I think our nation also wants to get lithium out of the ground rare earth metals that kind of thing uh if it delays those types of projects you're just delaying uh those types of national uh and I would say also just better communication and transparency
▶ 2:26:55uh so that everybody can see you know a request is in here's your due date here's a status something that's more transparent than you just send it and then hope for the best and wait for months thank you very much chairman AEL back thank you sir the chair recognizes the representative from Alabama thank you Mr chair and thank you to the committee of leadership for hosting uh this or holding this hearing rather and thank you to all of you guys for for being here for your time I know it's not easy to
▶ 2:27:25sit here and take take all of these questions uh listen as I as I've sat through this hearing I think something is uh becoming abundantly clear and that's that there's a balance that's needed um I've not heard anyone on this panel say that there should be no federal role for for permitting um I've certainly heard several convers or SE several pieces of testimony that indicate that the state needs a more uh Dynamic role and more uh um I guess more of a leadership role in the permitting processes so if we can go
▶ 2:27:55down the line in about guess about 45 seconds each or or so can you talk to me about what you think that appropriate balance is between state and federal involvement starting with you Mr sleary thank you um like I've already said I I think that the states I mean we this is our homes right I mean we are uh permitting activities regulating activities that affect us directly affect our citizens directly I think having more control at that State level um obviously there's a role
▶ 2:28:26uh for EPA and for the federal government to play um in Environmental Protection but uh nobody uh has as much of an interest as the states do in protecting their environment but also ensuring that we have a Prosperity economic prosperity in the state um to US economic prosperity and Environmental Protection it's all about the well-being of Oklahomans um so I think that that's where our our real interest come so I think that kind of highlighting the
▶ 2:28:56state's role in implementing these programs and in some ways even helping design the programs would be very beneficial thank you Mr lerette I'd say that with respect to the Clean Water Act permitting programs we've been discussing here today uh consider the state of New Jersey a a case study if you will we've grown our economy at the same time that we have consistently over years uh on a bipartisan basis exceeded minimum federal
▶ 2:29:26federal standards at the same time having 90day 120-day uh clocks on permitting decisions we can do both the balance exists it's a bit of a fallacy to suggest that it doesn't Mr hanners and I'll note that new Corp has a facility in eufala Alabama which is in my district we do and thanks for your support Congress Congressman U we we've hit on a number of these items but I'll I'll just summarize Nationwide permits are very important to us we
▶ 2:29:56do a lot of projects that have very minimal impact on the environment and we need that expedited process of being able to get that permit nailed down in an efficient manner that's understandable and a little bit more responsive as you've heard from from the others providing testimony second thing is pushing more decision- making to the state side hit it again but I think it's so important we have partners with State authorities and it works very well when we can we can go to a state whether it be Alabama we can talk about the project we're trying to we're trying to accomplish and we can get quick answers and we can get Solutions
▶ 2:30:26on how we navigate together the permitting process in every time for us in the states we work in it has a good outcome the last thing I'd say is just further limiting judicial review with each of our projects I I shouldn't say each but many we'll get to the finish line of what we expect to be the end of a permit and we will often have midnight entries or of a challenge to the permitting process and that dramatically can extend the permitting process and we're not against we want we want those challenges to be heard but we do need some better limits on
▶ 2:30:57how long those challenges can persist without a solution thank you Mr ason yeah I think uh clean water and good efficient permitting for infrastructure are not mutually exclusive so uh if you look what I've heard the question is the balance sort of like where the federal role and the state's role in in this process uh I see the federal government as sort of that uh higher overarching look looking at how how the states
▶ 2:31:27impact each other and so I grew up in Iowa so if a Pluto in Iowa did something now I live in Arkansas it's going to make its way down the Mississippi River Arkansas so therefore I think the federal government has a role in that because each state would individually you know could act in in their own interest or have different rules so so when it comes to setting the standards when it t when it comes to those types of waterways when it comes to uh overarching rules that protect those types of bodies of water and ensures good compliance among the states
▶ 2:31:57I think the federal government has the role there I think to the maximum extent that they could then say well these are the rules this is what it is push some of the enforcement of those rules and and permitting down to the States where they're in those local communities with those companies I think to the most extent that you could do that I think the the process would be more efficient thank you and one thing I'll note about you Mr Hassen one decision that cannot be balanced is your decision to attend Auburn University instead of the University of Alabama roll tight War
▶ 2:32:28Eagle thank you gentlemen the chair recognizes himself for five minutes um Mr Harris I want to talk to you going back to this this topic of the uh the West Virginia plant project that the price overrun almost eclipsed a billion dollars and for the average person I think that's a very sort of esoteric subject can you can you walk me through what led to that who was the source that challenged um the permitting process and what what how did that cost
▶ 2:32:58breakdown unfold um once it was in motion certainly and I appreciate the the question Mr con I mean the average person has no idea you get a permit right and you start to build a project how in the world could it be delayed and then a billion dollars added to the cost right and and we we make a decision to make an investment like that at many millions of dollars the big in our company's history the biggest in West Virginia's history and we're looking forward at a period of it's going to take us four years potentially longer to build that project so
▶ 2:33:28once once that decision is made to make that investment we start the permitting process immediately and you know if you you're asking for how how did that go wrong or where do we run into challenges there was really with the core of engineers as it relates to the scope of what what needed to be permitted for that project it started off with a smaller area it was then broadened months after we got into the project and that required us to include many other studies on a bigger piece of so you received an initial permit and then the goal poost were moved
▶ 2:33:58no we were in the permitting process when the goalpost was was broadened okay and then that led to you know your other point about the cost you you you you you incur because of that you're executing a project like this and you have to buy equipment that shipping from many locations and it's this is massive equipment so now this equipment has to sit in storage and you're paying for storage you're paying for additional Transportation you made decisions to employ a team because you have to make those employment decisions very early on in a project to start to build out the capabilities you need from a people standpoint
▶ 2:34:29so now you have extra people that you're you're you're you're paying early right you have contractors on site that you need but you're they're not doing they're not doing productive work yet so all that cost Stacks up to a very big impact and do you have any type of relief once the Army Corp engineer starts to move those goalposts do you have any way to challenge it appeal it question the reasonable reasonableness of it no very minimal and and the responsiveness is is frustrating at times it's very hard to get an answer at times you don't know exactly who to
▶ 2:34:59go to or who is the authority making what decision within that within that core of engineers um um you know specific challenge you're trying to navigate so from from a from a company like our standpoint from a manufacturer standpoint it's it's very frustrating to navigate what the actual challenges you're trying to tackle right and in terms of the of the would you say it is implementor or the actual language uh within the code itself that's the problem oh is it
▶ 2:35:29that's a tough question is it the regulator or is it a combination of both but but I will tell you that we have very different interactions with the core of engineers in different areas on the Ohio River even so there is an implementor Factor certainly um just a an understanding of the policy that is that is applied differently from this area to this area right but but that can also be I think there is a a a need to tighten up some of that language so that we understand the rules the the Implement tour has a very clear understanding of the boundaries and
▶ 2:35:59I think that best is answered by pushing more authority to the state in those instances sure what what difference or what consideration does the Army Corps in this West Virginia project what did they give to the billion dollar increase in cost I I don't know that they any I I very little recognition no consideration so is it is it also uh improper for me to conclude or to assume that this project would have led to a more efficient cleaner operation um more modernized technology Etc
▶ 2:36:30is that correct absolutely and so by all of these delays and increased costs they are preventing a more modern operation from coming online absolutely so there's a perverse incentive here Absol they're using Waters of the United States to slow the the bringing of uh a new new project online I would absolutely agree with that and that's not just unique to West Virginia and you're one project correct that is correct okay um Sir Mr hyon in in terms of one of the uh answers you gave earlier you said that it takes five
▶ 2:37:00years and what stuck out to me is to build a simple natural gas power plant if there was more regul regulatory certainty less judicial review uh vagueness and the ability just to construct it with a frontend permit and that gave you a smooth sale how long um the construction start to finish take uh if you streamline the permitting process um you know you just look at
▶ 2:37:31what is the time right now until you get your permit and each project is different so it's hard to give you an exact number of months yep but it would translate directly into reductions in that time that are going to reduce the overall time right the delays that are most costly are when you think you've got it all laid out and then as Mr Hanner said you you've purchased very expensive equipment you and then when the permit doesn't come through where those delays come in then there are huge carrying costs on these projects so any
▶ 2:38:01efficiency we can do there and if we can uh tighten timelines and and not lower the standard but like why look at the same thing three times let's do it one time y that type of thing that will translate into savings and projects and we will be able to get infrastructure in service online faster great thank you the chair recognizes desier thank you thank you Mr chairman I want to thank the witnesses as well um I represent a district in Northern
▶ 2:38:31California that represents most of the sanen Sacramento Delta the largest Estuary west of the Mississippi provides over half of the water river flow in the state of California a current president is becoming familiar with these Dynamics um I've represented for most of the last 35 years at local state and federal level Mr Loff is not here but we negotiated a partnership when we were in the legislature uh that would help change the dynamic so the first time in the history of the state we would ask for require
▶ 2:39:01permitting by our a industry because their Acer aquifers were collapsing the San waen Valley creates a third of the vegetables and fruit in the United States it's an enormous Agricultural and economic benefit so getting this balance from that perspective has always been interesting 1972 by memory serves me when the Clean Water Act was passed one of the Premier my view pieces of legislation environmentally and it should be business-wise
▶ 2:39:31as well um Richard Nixon was President it passed out of the Senate with no no votes passed out of the house with I think 11 no votes and then President Nixon vetoed it it passed they overrode the VIS the The veto with huge bipartisan support in that context it seems as if and for all of you but I'm going to start with Mr Lett and his experience specifically about the Delta smelt and how all of that is intertwined
▶ 2:40:02in our instance but in other instances in Environmental Protection but it does seem as if we could have improved our efficiency to the point of and to the chair's point of doing more of this UPF front um litigation is not an effective way I don't think as a progressive member of Congress to to provide oversight so to degree we can do it it's more efficient and I'm somewhat frustrated sometimes that we haven't made it more efficient for everyone although I think we've made great strides in particular in California California
▶ 2:40:32Water Project one of the great engineering Feats in American history started by Governor Pat Brown um allowed for all of this so in that context of recent news having dealt with uh the end Endangered Species Act and the Delta spelt specifically um it's the canary and the coal mine as a lot of uh these circumstances are and still having the balance of when to hold water when to release water in the environment that's changing every year because of climate change and
▶ 2:41:03the relationship to the CR snow pack in our case so could you speak Mr pet in your experience that Dynamic where it's not just about in our instance the Delta smelt it's the canary and the coine that they represent about the health of the largest Estuary west of the Mississippi which obviously has a context of clean drinking water and the supply of clean drinking water for for the country so how do we meet that balance but also in the context of it's in this case
▶ 2:41:33it's not just about that particular species although it's important in of itself but it's more the impact that it represents to the health of the delta in this case can you just say that last part one more time maybe a little closer to the mic so I I want to make sure I'm getting it I think it's an Endangered Species Act question well no more generally the health the environmental health of some place like the sanen Delta is very is important to clean water that if you're not balancing all of
▶ 2:42:03this um you're not you're going to have to spend more money on clean water rather than less so the environmental balance that benefits everybody so I think it's important as I said uh to the to the congresswoman before that we look at uh the this issue a bit more holistically right because any one uh project uh that is getting built and we're concerned about a permit from under the nwp or a permit you know under the Clean
▶ 2:42:33Air Act for parate matter right there's there's multiple things going on in the development of any one site that all bear on the greater uh environmental impact in in that region and so I think we have to look at the the perming matters across the board in a way that we do that um to promote coordinated environmental governance that is conscious of the air issue the the land issue the water issue across the board is that we have an
▶ 2:43:04mechanism inside our state environment agency that brings every um internal state agency and the federal agencies that are in that that touch that to one table it is a service that we provide to the regulated Community because any one regulated actor may not see the greater context of environmental health if we bring everyone around the table we can help
▶ 2:43:34share that information um so that we're doing the best to protect the the environmental health across all media thank you thank you Mr chairman always willing to work with you and others to try to make the system work more thank you sir the chair recognizes Mr Perry for five minutes thank I thank the chair and thank the witnesses this to me falls into the category of no good deed goes unpunished to me the radical left has been so hellbent at stopping
▶ 2:44:04traditional Energy power uh and projects the things that provide us with nearly every modern imaginable good that we have and and the abuse of the system that we have to do their bidding um that's what I've seen over the course of my time here the radical left's weaponization particularly of section 41 of the Clean Water Act is a perfect example of the anti-energy mindset it's actually kind of like an anti- civilization mindset
▶ 2:44:35taking hold and being used to attack projects for which they disagree and as many have stated here along the line you get a permit you think you're going to work and then you know they it's actually a strategy to let you build out as much of the project as possible possible and stop it at the end to chill investment for future projects which is just mind-numbing I'll give you a couple examples the state of Washington used section 401 to kill the Millennium bulk terminal project due to nine listed adverse impacts now
▶ 2:45:05they might have all been valid adverse impacts unfortunately none of them related to water quality and again I'll remind everybody this is section 401 the state of New York used section 401 to deny a pipeline project and ritton Bay due to the potential greenhouse gas emissions from the project well greenhouse gas emissions are unrelated to water quality right that's this is 401 and oh by the way like I get that they don't love a pipeline I'm
▶ 2:45:35not sure I want a pipeline in my backyard either but so now we're going to put the fuel on a train and they're not going to like that either so then we're going to buy the fuel from Russia or some other country that hates us this is a brilliant plan the state of Oregon killed an LG export terminal using section 401 Pro uh process the state of New Jersey denied a water quality permit for proposed pipeline project and they actually cited water quality issues however the environmental groups
▶ 2:46:06that pushed the state into action made it very clear they were just simply in opposition TOA traditional energy um uh projects fortunately during the first term of the Trump Administration was identified this weaponization for what it is and took action to limit the scope of the 401 401 to actual water quality issues and I would cite the gentle lady from Ohio representative Sykes you know I was alive when the kyoga river was on fire
▶ 2:46:36none of us on this committee probably none of you in the audience agree with you know a pipe coming out of a factory dumping into a river and and and filling it with a bunch of stuff that's flammable and kill like none of us agree with that but that was 50 years ago we don't do that anymore and to use 401 to stop legitimate projects for everything other than what 401 is used for like has to be recognized acknowledged and something has to be done about
▶ 2:47:07it it's vital that Congress acts to make the change permanent um last Congress we took action to do so by passing the water quality certification and energy protection Improvement act through this committee and included in an hr1 and it's got to be brought back up and and taken across the Finish Line it's an important step uh to stop the the the radical assault on traditional energy Pro uh projects uh Mr laret is you know your Governor Murphy's appointed alternate
▶ 2:47:37commissioner to the Delaware River Basin commission God bless it the drbc as we know it is under immense pressure from environmental groups that receive significant Federal funding it's not just just paid for by people out in the community that say well we want it to it's paid for by tax dollars to move forward with a ban on hydraulic fracturing now Pennsylvania's got a lot of resources so does New York but in doing so the commission denied pennsylvanians in the River Basin the ability to
▶ 2:48:07access the mineral rights that they themselves own the underpinning of the United States of America and for free Society itself they they can't extract it but for the commission's actions it's also denied the nation and the world a critical source of natural gas at a time of high price and significant volatility in the market again we turn to Russia because of things like the Jones act and these type of things to buy gas for New England and I don't want to be paying those rates but I don't think those
▶ 2:48:37people do either but we can't get Pennsylvania can't get its product to Market because of this kind of stuff the drbc is an unelected group of bureaucrats legisl that I've offered the drill now act will be reintroduced this week and addresses the misguided Power grabed by the drbc um these River ba this River Basin commission and there's three of them in Pennsylvania that cover the state impose more string stringent regulations than the duly elected
▶ 2:49:07representatives of the Commonwealth that kind of stuff has got to end somebody has to be accountable and it can't be people at these commissions that aren't elected and impose these kind of uh these regulatory prohibitions on the citizenry and our country I yield the balance thank you representative Perry the gentleman yields back are there any further questions from any members of the subcommittee who have not yet been recognized seeing none I asked for unanimous consent to enter into
▶ 2:49:38the record the following letters related to the Clean Water Act permitting from the industrial energy consumers of America dated February 10th 2025 the Interstate Natural Gas Association of America dated February 2025 American Society of civil engineers dated February 11th 2025 the western states water Council dated February 11th 20125 the waters advocacy Coalition dated
▶ 2:50:08February 11 2025 the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality dated February 11 2025 and lastly the associated builders and contractors dated February 11 2025 without objection so ordered this concludes our hearing for today I would like to thank each one of the witnesses for your time and your testimony the subcommittee stands adjourned thank you all right got
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