▶ 0:02:28e e
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▶ 0:05:58good morning is everyone ready Dr Coen you ready all right good morning the subcommittee on disability assistance and Memorial Affairs will come to welcome all right Mr self there's no making fun of the chairman when I'm when I'm in control of the gavel I'd
▶ 0:06:28like to welcome the new members of the subc commmittee and those returning members it is absolutely a privilege to be the chairman again for disability assistance and my good friend Morgan mcy from kuy's Third District is now our ranking member so happy to have you here sir today okay so today we are going to take a closer look at how the Department of Veterans Affairs seems to fail to give veterans any due process before violating their constitutional right to bear arms according to regulations issued
▶ 0:06:58by VA and the Department of Justice VA must report to the FBI National instant criminal background check system or the ncks list the name of any veteran who needs help from a fiduciary to manage their finances because of a disability these veterans sacrificed to protect the Constitution due Pro excuse me these veterans sacrificed to protect the Constitution due process and second amend rights of every American yet for over
▶ 0:07:28two decades without any due process VA bureaucrats have stripped over 250,000 veterans with fiduciaries of their constitutional right to possess and purchase firearms these practices have wrongfully prevented veterans with with fiduciaries from owning see me after class sir you good to go Mr Reynolds all right this practice
▶ 0:07:59Okay so for over two decades I I'll repeat this over 250,000 veterans with fiduciaries uh with fiduciaries of the constitutional right to possess and purchase firearms these practices have irly prevented veterans with fiduciaries from owning Firearms whether it to be protect themselves and or their families VA reports these veterans to the Nicks list without any ruling by any judge that they are a danger to themselves or others the VA does this without any medical findings by any medical professionals that they are dangerous to themselves or
▶ 0:08:29their Community it is important to understand the VA that the VA strips Veterans of their constitutional right to bear arms with zero medical evidence indicating that they are suicidal homicidal or a threat to their Community under va's current practice at no point before VA reports a veteran to the Nicks list does any medical professional ever need to say that a veteran is at a risk to themselves it should go without saying that there is no data to support that a veteran who is unable to manage their finances because of a disability is automatically dangerous in fact advocate
▶ 0:08:59for mental health care emphasized that assuming anyone with a mental illness is dangerous absolutely stigmatizes mental mental illness itself ultimately VA incorrectly assumes without any evidence whatsoever that a veteran should be stripped of their rights to bear arms are simply because they need to need help paying their bills by comparison in every other state and federal legal system civilians and criminals must be proven Dangerous by a judge based on evidence before they are stripped of their constitutional right to bear arms veterans with fiduciaries do not get the same same
▶ 0:09:30process unlike every other American veterans with fiduciaries must undergo a difficult appeals process where they must prove that they should be given back their constitutional right to bear arms only after they have been added to the Nick's List this means that veterans are subject to different rules compared to every other American even though veterans fought to protect our American constitutional rights since March 9th of 2024 VA has been temporarily prohibited from using any funds to report veteran assigned
▶ 0:10:00to a assigned a fiduciary to the next list without a Court ruling that the veteran is a danger to themselves or others this hearing will reveal Congress this hearing will reveal that Congress must pass a permanent piece of legislation or legislative solutions to protect veterans constitutional due process this hearing is not about guns or demand it's about affording veterans with the same due process rights every other American is afforded I look forward to hearing from our Witnesses and thank you Dr Reynolds I appreciate you traveling all the way from Alabama sir
▶ 0:10:30with that I will yield to the ranking member for his opening remarks thank you very much Mr chairman I truly am looking forward to working with you have enjoyed our relationship over the last few years uh and enjoyed the relationship you had with my my predecessor representative papis and and one of the things that we have talked about several times is that no matter where we find ourselves outside these walls we agree we agree that our veterans deserve our care they have earned our care uh they have been
▶ 0:11:00made a both a legal and a moral promise and it is our job on this committee to make sure that we live up to that promise and I look forward to working with you to do so I know today's hearing is also a little bit tricky it is a little bit tricky because as someone with family members in the military uh veterans in my family all around the community I understand that that veterans do often times have and enjoy owning Firearms
▶ 0:11:31we also know the incredibly sobering statistics around veteran mental health and Veteran suicide our job on this committee is not to enter into the hot button political topics of the day but to figure out how to best take care of our veterans these statistics are truly sobering today the most atrisk group in the entire country for death by Suicide are white men over 50 who served in the military
▶ 0:12:01and own a firearm 73% of Veteran suicides involve Firearms we also know that death by firearm is the most lethal common method of suicide and male veterans are 41% more likely to use the firearm in suicide attempts than non-veterans and female veterans are 39% more likely to use a firearm in suicide than non-veterans this is something we have to continue to be aware of and work on Committee in fact on Tuesday Senator Blumenthal
▶ 0:12:31asked incoming VA secretary Doug Collins in his confirmation hearing if he would commit to find ways to reduce Firearms suicides by veterans Doug Collins said quote I will look to fix anything that takes the lives of our veterans that means we have to talk about it too we have to lessen the very real stigma around seeking mental health I told you this is tricky we know veterans want to enjoy owning Firearms we don't want them to not seek care out of a fear that they will lose access to that
▶ 0:13:02firearm at the same time we cannot talk about death by Suicide with these statistics without talking about the themselves I understand I empathize with our veterans and others who feel there's an unfairness to the current but we have to be willing to talk about this in a way of where the rubber meets the road we're talking about a very specific subset of veterans veterans who have gone in for medical Medical Care who've been diagnosed with conditions such as schizophrenia
▶ 0:13:32Alzheimer's dementia other conditions severe enough that they are no longer able to handle their own Affairs in fact we have a 2018 study by Swanson that found that veterans with a fiduciary are quote at significantly higher risk of suicide compared to other veterans so we're not just talking about veterans who are more at risk for suicide than the general population we are talking about a population within the veterans that is at a significantly greater risk for suicide 17 veterans
▶ 0:14:03right now 17 veterans a day are dying by Suicide so we cannot ignore these facts and these studies the chairman I joked about this for a minute beforehand and we don't need another study papering the wall of the VA but this is worth our attention and worth finding out exactly what's going on because in this situation we're in today we are finding ourselves I fear too much talking about the the politics
▶ 0:14:33and not the policy so I want to make this a little more concrete as we step into it what happens if you are a veteran in Louisville Kentucky how does the rubber meet the road how is this going to impact you and the reality is if you're a veteran going in for healthcare uh and it's not by going to a mental health appointment so if if you're going in to get this determination and you're going in for mental healthc care as a veteran that is not how you end up here a veteran who goes in for mental health for schizophrenia for
▶ 0:15:03Alzheimer's for ptsc for any of the things we've talked about that is not how you end up here in the situation we're discussing today you can be found not to be competent in a medical proceeding but this only kicks after you apply for a disability benefit because of that condition so this happens when the vet applies for benefits as part of the benefit application process then the VA records and compiles the medical evidence
▶ 0:15:33this is the first step so what happens you go in there's a person who administers a disability benefits questionnaire that the veteran Community knows as the DBQ and it can indicate that a veteran may require not shall may require a fiduciary then there's a second layer of review that kicks in the initial findings are reviewed by claims processors to trained to evaluate this medical evidence if there is enough medical evidence to get the claims processes to determine that they cannot manage their own Affairs then the file goes to the fiduciary
▶ 0:16:03program it's during that process that the VA is required by law to notify Veterans of the proposed determination with respect to their competency so you've already had a layer of review then it goes to another layer of review and another layer of review which will notify you that there's a potential determination of your competency at any point in this process after you've been notified or before you can actually offer additional or cont evidence you can appeal the va's decisions in fact there are at least six avenues
▶ 0:16:34for appeal uh on the chart behind me you can see through these and and we're happy to talk about ways with the majority if we can make these notices and appeals more accessible to vets more accessible to them figure out how they can get through this process again we want to make sure we are taking care of our veterans so once this determine of incompetency has been made there have been notices for contrary evidence it's gone through several layers of review then you are determined to be incompetent
▶ 0:17:04to handle your own Affairs and the VA complies with the administrative procedures act the ncks Improvement amendments Act and the 21st century cures act in their notifications to Veterans about the ramifications of decision that is when you get reported ncks is my understanding however that even if we take away the notification to Nicks that does not not automatically give you the right to own a firearm you have already
▶ 0:17:34been deemed incompetent to handle your Affairs you've already had a condition serious enough you can't handle your own Affairs and you are still incompetent under other laws and are unable to own a firearm this prohibits the the notification to NX which then the Practical effect of that is you are unable to buy a new firearm has nothing to do with existing Firearms which when you get into the the depths of this and we were talking about this yesterday Mr chairman your fiduciary might keep you from buying
▶ 0:18:04that firearm anyway because they are in control of your money and can determine how your money is spent because you've applied for this disability benefit after you've gotten so let's take a step back we look at this underlying process and I I will readily admit the process can be frustrating it can be confusing and maybe we need to do some work on this to better protect our veterans there's always room for improvement I think we can point out some fault lines in the current process and I know
▶ 0:18:34that there are veterans who feel this process is failing them those are fair and perhaps essential questions that we should ask about the fiduciary program right now and we don't always have the firm evidence to answer so I wanted to kind of set the stage today say that no matter what the issue is we here on the minority side stand ready to work with the majority to ensure the care of our veterans to make sure that they are getting the care they need
▶ 0:19:04to reduce that number so that veterans are no longer the most at risk group for suicide in our entire country and to do the work of this committee which is again to take care of them and keep them safe Mr chairman I look forward to doing that with you and look forward to hearing thank you ranking member I ask unanimous consent for non- commmittee members to par participate in accordance with committee rules I ask unanimous consent that the following MERS members be permitted to participate in today's subcommittee hearing representative van Orton of Wisconsin and representative
▶ 0:19:35Mr Eli crane from Arizona without objection so ordered today's panels include Witnesses from congressional research Service as well as veteran Advocates our lead witness from congressional research service is Dr Jordan B Cohen analist in Firearms policy welcome sir Dr Cohen is joined by Dr Scott simera I nail it say uh close enough simera simera
▶ 0:20:05yeah potato tomato sorry buddy uh analyst in Disability Policy and Congressional Research Services today's panels also include Mr James McCormack past National commander of the military order of the Purple Heart welcome Dr Wayne Reynolds National treasurer for Vietnam Veterans of America sir welcome again miss Nancy Springer associate director National legislative service at Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States welcome ma'am and Master Sergeant Michael top Washington US Marine Corps retired of the every town veterans
▶ 0:20:36adversary Council welcome sirar thank you thank you all for your service I ask that the Witnesses on our panel please stand and raise your right hand do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got I thank you and let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative Dr Cohen sir you are now recognized for five minutes to deliver your
▶ 0:21:06opening statement on behalf of the Congressional research service chairman Latrell ranking member of McGarvey and distinguished members of the committee my name is Jordan con and I am a CRS analyst in Firearms policy thank you very much for the opportunity to testify before the subcommittee today I will summarize my formal written statement with these remarks and I will focus on the Department of Veterans Affairs reporting requirements for the national instant criminal background check system otherwise known as nck joining me is my colleague Scott simera and we
▶ 0:21:36will be available to answer your questions NX is a national name check system for federal firearms licensees otherwise known as ffls it is used to confirm that a person is not prohibited from Legally buying selling or possessing a firearm Section 102 of the Brady handgun violence prevention Act of 1993 requires all ffls to request a back ground check through Nicks on prospective buyers before completing a transfer Nicks
▶ 0:22:06reporting refers to the process for federal state local and Tribal Law Enforcement departments and agencies to report persons ineligible according to federal law to own a firearm to NX that federal law is 18 USC 922g and at list the nine classes of people who cannot buy sell or possess a firearm these classes include include but are not limited to felons in possession persons convicted of misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence unauthorized
▶ 0:22:36immigrants and non-immigrant visitors people who have renounced their US citizenship and persons that are quote adjudicated is a mental defective end quote the class persons that are adjudicated as a mental defective does not require an order or finding from a judge magistrate or other judicial authority to be added to ncks ATF regulation 27 CFR part 4781 notes that this determination can be made by a court board commission or other lawful
▶ 0:23:07Authority and it includes persons who lack the mental capacity to contract or manage their own Affairs under the VA regulations the VA has the authority to determine if a beneficiary in a VA program is mentally incompetent the va's regulations provide the following definition of mental incompetency quote a mentally incompetent person is one who because of injury or disease lacks the mental capacity to contract or to manage their own Affairs including dispersement of funds without limitation
▶ 0:23:37end quote thus any person determined by the agency to be mentally incompetent because they need a fiduciary to receive disability benefits payments would in turn be reported to Nicks because they would be quote adjudicated as a mental defective this determination of mental incompetency by the VA is made without any order from a quar or judge are finding that the veteran is a danger to themselves or others is the end of 2023 there was
▶ 0:24:154,893 or 97.8% were submitted by the VA though not necessarily all were because of the need for fiduciary to manage their affairs for veterans appealing the mental incompetence determination section 101 c2a of the Nicks Improvement amendments act requires that each federal department or agency that makes mental health adjudications or commitments to mental institutions establish processes in which reported individuals can apply for relief from the aformentioned
▶ 0:24:46disability beneficiaries requesting relief though are not entitled to the benefit of the doubt in the evaluation of a request for Relief the policy of the VA is to deny a request for relief if evidence shows the beneficiary would be a danger to themselves or others if relief were granted the VA must Grant relief if clear and convincing evidence shows that one this beneficiary is not likely to act in a manner dangerous to the public and two that granting relief will not be contrary
▶ 0:25:16to the public interest a provision in the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2024 prohibits the VA from expending any appropriated funds in FY 2024 to report any person person to Nix based on mental incomp incompetency without quote an order of finding from a judge magistrate or other judicial authority of competent jurisdiction that the beneficiary is a danger to themselves or others end quote this provision was extended by the two continuing resolutions enacted in 2024 and it will expire
▶ 0:25:47on March 14th 2025 unless extended through additional legislation in addition this provision does not require removal of names that are already reported to nxs this concludes my brief remarks thank you for the opportunity to testify and I look forward to your questions thank you sir the written statement of Dr Co will be entered into the hearing record Mr McCormack sir you're now recognized for minutes Harvey and esteemed members of subcommittee
▶ 0:26:17thank you for the opportunity to discuss a critical issue that impacts our veterans the Constitutional violations within the Veterans Affairs fiduciary program related to reporting of veterans to the National instant criminal background system you know our president just gave an inauguration speech where he stated that we need to have a common sense Revolution and I would say that this would would be one of those areas that I hope that reaches his desk because this is not only a matter
▶ 0:26:47of common sense it's also a matter of due process what part of the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed do bureaucrats not understand you know I listen to members of Congress real about due process on many other areas but not for veterans and this is truly a due process issue the very people who serve lead and many cases die for the rights of every other citizen are
▶ 0:27:17denied this basic right this process allows veterans to lose their second amendment rights without due process and based on administrative process processes and decisions of policy not due process and not definitely not constitutional law but it goes deeper than that there are other violations involved the First Amendment veterans May avoid seeking VA benefits or mental health care due to fears of being reported infringing on their right to petition the government
▶ 0:27:48the Second Amendment we're talking about you can strip a veteran of their gun without basic due process and that's for any citizen without a DD214 the Fourth Amendment reporting veterans without judicial oversight violates their privacy acts the Fifth Amendment veterans lose their rights without due process 14th Amendment veterans are treated unequally lacking the same protection as non- veterans these violations erode trust and fail to
▶ 0:28:18help our veterans contributing to the stigma that discourages them from seeking necessary help this fear can be devastating exacerbating and and it also aggravates rates the current system does not effectively address the mental health challenges veterans face nor does it reduce the alarming suicide rates why should veterans be punished for seeking help we're not a substandard group of citizens we deserve the same rights and the due
▶ 0:28:49process as any other citizen in America my family has a long history of service my grandfather was wounded in World War II his brother was killed in Korea my father was wounded twice in Vietnam he died at 52 years of age of cancer related agent orange I served in two combat theaters of operation wounded multiple times and I gave you two of my sons to serve this country and both of them served in combat we have sacrificed
▶ 0:29:19yet we are denied the basic fairness of due process and constitutional rights afforded to non-veterans when it comes to this I urge this committee to act swiftly to correct these viol ations and restore trust in our system so that these veterans will actually seek help because they are worried about losing their rights or being stigmatized as being some kind of a a crazy maniac that can't be trusted with a weapon when just a few months before in some cases they were patrolling the streets of Afghanistan and Iraq
▶ 0:29:49With Grenades and rifles and else we have to do better lastly to my fellow veterans and your family members do not let the fear of losing your constitutional rights keep you from seeking help when you need it we have six if you are a veteran or you know a veteran that's in crisis I encourage you I implore you to reach out for help support is available 247 simply dial 988 and press one or text 8
▶ 0:30:2038255 I thank you for your time and I welcome your questions thank you Mr mccomic uh written statement will be entered into the hearing record Dr Reynolds sir you are now recognized for five minutes chairman l l thanking member I and distinguished members of this panel I feel so humble to be able to sit here and speak to you I'm just a poor country boy from Alabama I'm Dr Reynolds but my PhD is in statistics my
▶ 0:30:50son is a physician I'm also a practicing nurse I became a nurse after I retired as a school superintendent I'm 78 years old in Vietnam I was a combat medic on a helicopter I've dealt with tragedy trauma and death for more than any human being should have when I finished my education and career I went and I became an ER Trauma Nurse because I wanted to treat people and care about
▶ 0:31:20people and I'm here representing a myriad of Vietnam veterans and age groups over 50 I'm I'm 78 and I want to tell you that we are being treated improperly I heard about all the steps that VA goes through I can tell you that's a farce ask any veteran who's gone through the Myriad of problems just to get a mental disability it's horrendous and the older you are the harder it is to get even with the presumptives
▶ 0:31:51that you've got today I will want to bring you my professional expertise but also my personal story stories s shared by thousands of veterans to shed light on the Injustice per perpetrated on the VA fiary program and its unconstitutional impact on all veterans life specifically I want to highlight the program's flaws flawed practice of linking Financial incompetency with dangerousness and devastating devastating consequences it can have on Veterans lives and
▶ 0:32:21livelihood under the VA fiduciary program a veteran can be deemed mentally and competent if it determines it cannot manage its Financial programs so does a millionaire be less threatening than a person of poverty it's a gross Injustice and it's a bias against people of lower income I came from a family of lower income that's not their fault I I'm the oldest of 12 children I grew up in poverty I happen to achieve and was fortunate
▶ 0:32:52I got my achievement because I was in the Army and I went and used the GI bill to finish my degree determination is almost often made without judicial oversight without medical oversight can I imagine me having as a as a nurse a technician a clerk the person that takes the people into the O and into the ER determine whether they get medical care or not that's ridiculous and that's what we're doing we're allowing VA clerks
▶ 0:33:22to make important decisions that affects lives perpetually I spent decades working and education and finance as a professional in these fields I can unequivocally say the financial struggles are mismanaged do not do not correlate statistically they do not correlate with any propensity for violence or dangerous Behavior poor people or people economic aren't violent that's a that's a terrible thing to put on our society and certainly I don't agree
▶ 0:33:52it's un unfair and unconstitutional allow me to speak about my personal experience I returned from Vietnam in 1969 as a 21-year-old immure person I guess who'd seen hundreds of deaths when we picked them up on a helicopter we brought people back in pieces I worked in a hospital for some time and it was devastating but I didn't have any money
▶ 0:34:22I relied on the GI bill when I came back to University of Georgia to pursue my degree I didn't have any money I took part-time jobs working in the library if somebody had looked at my financial situation and reported me to this a as this agency does I could never have gotten a job in education I could never because in Alabama I'm on the State Board elected State Board of Education in Alabama we insist on a very stringent background search for everybody we
▶ 0:34:53hire we wouldn't hire me with if I had that blemish on my record you see my life Works has been in education and finance and and if I had been reported than NCIS I would not have had the opportunities I have had so I would just restate the instance that we've had before the Amendments that we're violating the personal freedom that we're violating and the due process rights of
▶ 0:35:24humanity are being violated and we need to read address that thank you very much chairman thank you sir the WR statement of Dr Reynolds will be entered into the hearing record Miss Springer you're now recognized for five minutes chairman Latrell ranking member of McGarvey and members of the subcommittee on behalf of the men and women of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States and its auxiliary thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony regarding this important topic the VFW strongly supports protecting the constitutional rights of veterans assigned
▶ 0:35:54Department of Veterans Affairs fiduciaries and preventing inappropriate assignment to the National inant criminal background check system or NX however underneath this constitutional rights issue lay a process that stakeholders could substantially improve to both Safeguard veterans and ensure due process conversation with a former VA field examiner now a VFW employee yielded several actionable suggestions based on her experiences in the field accordingly the VFW offers the following recommendations after VA sends
▶ 0:36:24a veteran the proposed incompetency determination require a second medical exam to confirm or refute that proposal and to assess the Veteran's probability to cause harm not being able to manage one's finances did not necessarily imply a veteran is a danger to self or others or could not responsibly own and use Firearms require VA field examiners to operate in two person teams while conducting in-person interviews to conduct an effective interview VA field examiners must meet the veteran in his or her environment our VA
▶ 0:36:54field examiner informed us that this meeting place could range from a job site to a home however the home she visited included homeless tent encampments and Skid Row in Los Angeles with significant safety concerns a team would enhance the examiner's personal security encourage interviews in the veterans domain contributing to a more accurate assessment of the veterans mental state and probability to harm self or others reassess all Co area fiduciary assignments our VA field examiner informed us that they routinely conducted
▶ 0:37:25virtual interviews during covid a virtual vir interview while understandable during a public health emergency makes it more difficult to detect vital verbal and non-verbal cues that are instrumental to detecting a mental health ailment or to telltale signs of someone likely to harm self or others revise all VA letters that informed Veterans of va's proposed fiduciary assignment simply and directly explain the significance of the fiduciary assignment its relationship to Nicks referral and the veterans appeal rights also VA must
▶ 0:37:55send the letters in a timely manner to notify the veteran prior to the field interview our VA field examiner was often the one informing the veteran of the fiduciary assignment his relationship to Nick's referral and the consequent restriction of firearms purchases and ownership some veterans reacted angrily when they realized the loss of their second amendment rights in one case a veteran placed a firearm on the table during the interview to intimidate the VA field examiner putting her in a potentially dangerous situation while merely doing her job and as a last step require a
▶ 0:38:25judicial review prior to Nick's referral to guarantee D due process before infringing on Veterans constitutional rights however veterans can challenge va's propos incens determination by requesting a hearing before VA by submitting additional evidence alternatively veterans can petition VA for relief of the Firearms prohibitions imposed by the law few veterans exercise these options and ones that do are rarely successful according to a July 2023 Congressional research service report in fiscal year 22
▶ 0:38:55there were 135 hearings on incomp y determinations 24 of which result in incompetency the same report noted that VA processed 33 petitions of relief of firearm's prohibitions but did not Grant relief in any of these cases however 11 Veterans who petitioned for Relief were determined to be competent and were subsequently removed from NX the experiences of our VFW service officers and our former VA field examiner corroborate these statistics the case of the VA field examiner her familiarity with the overall process allowed her to intervene
▶ 0:39:25and successfully Hal inappropriate at NX referral for some beneficiaries however none of her beneficiaries has successfully appealed a NX referral and unfortunately because of the existing process some of our VW members are hesitant to use VA Healthcare they fear inadvertently making a disqualifying statement or disclosing a disabling condition that could ultimately prohibit their possession or purchase of a firearm we want our members to use VA Healthcare unfortunately the stigma could unnecessarily deprive them of their earned benefits and compromise their health
▶ 0:39:56however the process changes we OS could preserve the fiduciary program for deserving beneficiaries while simultaneously safeguarding veterans and preventing inappropriate NYX referrals chairman Latrell ranking member McGarvey this concludes my testimony I welcome any questions from you or members of the subcommittee thank you manam the written statement from of Miss Springer will be entered into the hearing record Mr Sergeant Washington sir you now recognize for five minutes thank you good afternoon chairman ell
▶ 0:40:26ranking member Garvey and members of the subcommittee my name is Master Sergeant Michael Washington United States Marine Corps retired I'm a proud veteran the second of second of four generations of Marines and numerous other uh branches of the service in my family I served as an infantry platoon sergeant and Counter Intelligence agent for 23 years as a civilian I spent three decades as a firefighter and now I'm a mental health counselor serving veterans and First Responders many of whom
▶ 0:40:56are veterans themselves thank you for allowing me to speak with you today on 14 June 2008 as I prepared to go on a fire response on engine 16 in Seattle a white government issue sevy Chevy Suburban with two marines in the front seat suddenly arrived at the station I knew instantly that they were there to inform me that my son Sergeant Michael T Washington of golf company second Battalion 7th Marines have been killed in action in Afghanistan my world stopped
▶ 0:41:27I didn't know how to feel was loss I tried to man up as dictated by my culture my long dormant PTSD an accumulation of childhood traumas tragedies witnessed As A Firefighter and my four combat tours erupted like a psychological Mount St Helens rather than talk I drank and I fought which were acceptable responses in my generational and professional cultures eventually mentally exhausted i s an end to the pain I engaged in
▶ 0:41:57risky behaviors especially riding my Harley-Davidson through red lights hoping for an instant end to my suffering finally i s released by leaping to my death from a nearby bridge and just as I was about to go over the railing I heard my son's voice plain as day it said dad your story doesn't end here you have work to do I soaked in his voice and his message and after a few minutes walked off the bridge never to return to suicidal ideation I wasn't fixed by
▶ 0:42:27a long stretch but I was no longer suicidal but had I had access easy access to a firearm I would never have had that chance I wouldn't be able to do the work I do now to help other veterans and First Responders we are experiencing an epidemic of Veteran suicides more than 6,400 veterans died by suicide in 2022 more than 73% involved Firearms this should be an urgent call to action to stop this epidemic to
▶ 0:42:57do that we must do something about access to firearms in moments of Crisis the background check system is the best tool we have to prevent access to a firearm but it's only as strong as the information that's in it when information is left out people cannot have guns that can get them for 30 years until last March the VA provided information on certain veterans not allowed to have guns under federal law to the background check system with due process Protections in place
▶ 0:43:27these were veterans the VA had diagnosed with serious mental health disorders of the veterans who died by suicide in 2022 more than 1,500 had been diagnosed with a mental health or substance abuse disorder last March Congress effectively blocked the VA from providing this information to the background check system there's now a growing number of veterans the background check system knows nothing about the exact cohort at risk Congress should think twice before continuing to block the VA like this
▶ 0:43:58or taking other other steps to undermine this important tool but I also want to address other interventions like the Continuum of force in the military these are also a Continuum some are about creating time and space between someone in a crisis and a gun Secure Storage in and outside the home or giving the keys to gun safes and lock boxes of someone else others are about preventing access like state level do not sell lists and extreme RIS
▶ 0:44:28laws veteran suicide is a public health issue not a political one both parties understand that President Trump and President Biden both took steps to reduce veteran suicide including Firearms suicides this bipartisan work continue I am humbled to be of some small service to this cause the cause that I'm proud to say everyone in this room is dedicated to my son gave what Abraham Lincoln called his last full measure of Devotion
▶ 0:44:58to this country and what it stands for and I aim to continue the fight in his name I am and I remain at your service thank you again and I look forward to questions thank you sir M Washington's statements will be entered into the record we now move to questioning I Rec I recognize myself for five minutes Dr Cohen the Supreme Court says that the government must have a very good reason for stripping Americans of their constitutional right does the VA your opinion does the VA
▶ 0:45:28have good reasons to to strip our veterans of their Second right so when it comes to Legal scholarship I can reach out to one of the CRS legislative attorneys and report back but when it I've got you right here in front of me it's all you buddy uh I I in terms of legal issues do not uh it is not my expertise but what what I can say is that the VA since the 1990s uh since the passage of the Brady handgun
▶ 0:45:58violence prevention act and since the ATF recognized VA policy and VA interpretation of uh regulations regarding the Nick system to be accurate and that that's how the VA has done it and many ways that could be considered to have been done because of either beliefs and underlying causes between being in the fiduciary program uh being somebody who needs fiduciary to manage their disability benefits it also could be done in terms of like viewed as an automization
▶ 0:46:29issue in the sense that once the Brady hen gun violence prevention Act was passed these agencies were not given unlimited funds to hire like something like a quote unquote NYX reporter and so a lot of agencies just try to make the the the the the policy is seamless as possible the the reporting as seamless as possible and the fix Nix Act of 2018 also very much emphasized that agencies should do their best to automatize reporting
▶ 0:46:59to next and to kind of take the any thought really out of it and just have a very systematic approach Mr McCormick yes sir so when it comes to this the fiduciary fiduciary process with the VA and Mr B I have absolutely been digging in to a very deep hole trying to figure out at the granular level the problem set here waters are extremely
▶ 0:47:30muddied um from start to finish can can you can you walk me through because we have we have in one in a sense that by the time the veteran gets to the fiduciary threshold there has been a process in place that has picked apart every single aspect of that Veteran's life and like okay we're here my concern is what and what we don't know and it's like and what the rank M state is is like what really happens can you give me your in your opinion
▶ 0:48:00is enough is there enough meat on the bone from start to finish or because veterans rights are just as important as any other American's right so the fact that this is this is happening and we don't have the processes in place that we think are there can you can you walk me through in your opinion what that looks like well I I can walk you through in my my knowledge of seeing other people go through the process and many times the the information flow from the VA back to the veteran is not
▶ 0:48:31uh consistent so there are many veterans that are you know in there asking for assistance whether it be for a mental uh issue or whether it be for a physical issue and then they run into an issue with finances managing their own money um then they end up in a position to where you know they are reported and as far as this lengthy process uh that was just brought up in the beginning of this that's the first that we've really seen uh but I can tell you that that
▶ 0:49:01I have a very close personal uh interaction with this where a young man was placed on this list and inadvertently was denied a job as a police officer and denied the right to purchase a firearm now that was quite a shock to that person and quite a shock to his dad did he say at any time that he was aware that that was going to be the circumstances of a fiduciary no sir he had no no idea Mr Springer can you can you back that up with when when when the veterans
▶ 0:49:32receive um their VA notices it seems like there's an inadequate explanation on the exactly where they're headed can you add some amping information please yes certainly um and I'm referring to a an actual proposal of incompetency letter from one of our case files yes ma'am so I have uh some uh real data here I will complement VA in that on the second page though they do have a heading that says how this decision could affect you I do think uh VA could
▶ 0:50:02rewrite these letters just a little bit more VA has a problem with letters going to Veterans and it takes you five or six lawyers in order to get through it I got that but in that letter right there on that second page would you read me that there's a heading on the second page it says how this decision could affect you and that decision is referring to VA considering if this person should be deemed incompetent and then have a fiduciary it's very it's very wordy is under federal law could could be or will be it is oh could you say again please could be or will be
▶ 0:50:33how this decision could affect you what I'm referring to is what's called a proposal of incompetency that's that's one of the first steps in the process so VA is proposing to the veteran that you may be incompetent and you may ultimately get a fiduciary and it allows the the veteran to respond to this letter within a 60-day period okay thank you yes Mr mcgar so you recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and and first of all I want to thank everyone for their
▶ 0:51:03service uh your continued service to our country uh M Sergeant Washington uh please know we are especially grateful to you and and sorry terribly sorry for your loss um I think one thing you're hearing from me and the chairman is we want to make sure that this process is also working for our veterans um and that there is information um I want to also point out a couple of things here after the testimony that that you all correct
▶ 0:51:33me we've been asking we want to get this right um when you go through this process through the disability process because of incompetency in particular we have not found a single instance of a veteran who has had their firearm confiscated because of this issue alone and so just I do think it's important for some um because we don't want veterans not seeking treatment under the idea that that might happen it has never
▶ 0:52:04happened and if that if we are wrong please tell us uh when that has happened and why um I also want to talk a little bit about the constitutionality of this only because this is the first time in my tenure in Washington that on the deis and on the panel I'm the only lawyer uh every time there's always more lawyers to the table uh and I I just want to say that this provision has never been found to be unconstitutional
▶ 0:52:34and there has been lots of litigation around Firearms there are lots of think tanks and there are lots of groups out there who are interested in bringing these types of lawsuits and so while there might be different opinions on the co constitutionality of it the fact is that under the current law in the United States it is not unconstitutional so I just want to clear that up as well um I want to talk a little bit about
▶ 0:53:04what goes on in the Nyx database currently uh and and Dr Cohen for you I just want to summarize the va's determinations it is a lengthy process by the time you are are determined and competent and then looking for a disability benefit for that comp that incompetency which is what we're talking about here today the va's determinations are based on the medical evidence of record and not arbitrary correct uh
▶ 0:53:35it medical record does play a role in the process it's it's the part of the process right they're here because they've gone in for for treatment um they have been deemed incompetent now they're looking for a disability because of that incompetence and so yeah the medical record plays a big part of this and I want to reiterate excuse me excuse me pleas Sor doct you're not recognized I want to reiterate that the VA did not make up this idea to report beneficiaries
▶ 0:54:05deemed mentally incompetent uh and they're obligated to do so under the gun control Act of 1968 mentioned in your report Dr Cohen and the Brady act and what we're talking about here today and the Kennedy Amendment does not change or repeal either one of those laws is that correct uh is that yeah the commity amendment it does not repeal the gun control
▶ 0:54:35act or the Brady so I just want to point out that when we're talking about this process we are talking about protecting veterans we're talking about all these sorts of things this is a lot of this is window dressing there are other things in play and you can disagree with them but this is what's actually happening and what's going on behind it um I have just a little bit of time left and I want to focus again on the on the health of our veterans
▶ 0:55:05because what we're all trying to do here is do what is best for our veterans M Sergeant Washington I want to thank you again for sharing your story you talked a little bit about some of what happened in your own life can can you elaborate on your uh experience with service connected disabilities and how some of we might be able to go about mitigating some of those risk factors you experienced in the next 36 seconds uh yes sir uh my my experience actually was was pretty streamlined because I think the uh the government was in
▶ 0:55:35the mode of clearing the backlog that's just my opinion there was a backlog of PTSD claims and uh things like that through the VA so I felt that that my process went went fast and it was well served and I talked to a mental health professional who listened to to my story and then gave gave his opinion and that's that's what it looked like so uh it seemed to work out pretty well in my case I know that's not everybody's case thank you Mr chairman
▶ 0:56:05y'll back thank you sir Miss mace you recognize for five minutes thank you Mr chairman and uh honored to be here today serving on your committee I was the first one here by the way so um and I want to thank everyone who's here with us this afternoon thank you for your service thank you for sharing your personal stories of pain uh it's very difficult for me to to hear that as a mom it's very tough so I want to thank you all today um it's very clear to me the va's definition of mentally incompetent has nothing to do with mental
▶ 0:56:36health and everything to do with the simple fact that veterans need help balancing their checkbooks uh it's a stigma to assume veterans are dangerous or suicidal simply because they have a mental illness every veteran with a mental illness deserves to be treated like an individual with individual needs and we can't make sweeping policy changes based on harmful generalizations about disabled veterans and policies must be based on real evidence and the va's fiduciary program fails to consider any evidence of dangerousness and fails to provide veterans with due process
▶ 0:57:06and we've got a correct now I actually think it's great that there's only one lawyer on this subcommittee and that we're no offense you spend a lot of time and money in law school I'm sure um but I think it's a good thing that we have that not everyone here is an attorney that we can ask some of the basic most common sense questions about policies for our veterans we have many veterans uh on this committee who can also uh get into the heart of it under current VA procedures veterans rights are stripped from them by purely administrative rather than judicial process under
▶ 0:57:36these procedures veterans rights are unjustly stripped from them and Congress must write this wrong and we must also make sure that that the VA is working for vets and not against them so my first question is for Miss Springer today do you think there may be survivors of of military sexual trauma who hesitate to seek VA mental health care because of the risk the VA could strip of their rights thank you for the question congresswoman I would broaden that to actually just all veterans in general our BFW members not just specifically MST
▶ 0:58:06survivors because of the the perception whether true or not that if they say the wrong thing if they present the disability condition it could go from there to the Nick's incompetency determination then to a fiduciary assignment and then to next my next question is for Dr simera is it difficult for veterans to prove they're not dangerous in order to convince the VA to remove them from the next list um I think you've seen the statistics that when
▶ 0:58:37when we get to this question of whether the veteran is a danger or not that really only comes into play if the veteran applies or files a petition for relief of disability of which according to statistics that we've seen from from the VA very few veterans I meaning the less than a hundred a year um do that at no other point in this process
▶ 0:59:07from the very beginning to the determination of incompetency to all of the appeals up to the US court of appeals for veter uh for veterans claims Etc none of that addresses the issue of whether the veteran is a harm potentially a harm elves or others it's only if you file the petition for the relief of disability then VA looks at a number of factors
▶ 0:59:37to determine that level of risk okay uh Captain McCormack my question for you today do veterans receive due process before the VA reports them to ncks absolutely not and what roadblocks do veterans experience in the appeals process multiple it's a timely and it's a costly process process that you know you're asking a veteran to go and fight to rescure the very rights that they serve to defend and protect so you're stripping them of a constitutional right that's
▶ 1:00:07a fact and then you're asking them well you got an opportunity you can go and fight for it well I guess we could pull you over arrest you for something and say well you can always fight to get your right of Freedom back and I think that's the issue is the level of fairness and the lack of due process as far as the judicial processes it's just ultimately unfair does it erode trust in the VA for veterans 100% 100% erods trust in the VA okay thank you Mr chairman I
▶ 1:00:37back yes ma'am thank you miss Ma Miss Dexter you recogniz for five minutes thank you Mr chairman um and thank you first uh to you and ranking member McGarvey for having this important hearing I very much appreciate it and to our Witnesses thank you all for your service and for being here it's important as a former VA healthc care uh physician I witnessed firsthand uh the importance of having a well
▶ 1:01:07functioning system and you've highlighted some of the challenges to that I also witnessed the devastating impacts of access to Firearms um for our veterans many of whom were struggling with mental health conditions and not getting the care that they needed or the advice that they needed the one thing that I really want to elevate from Master Sergeant Washington's um compelling and and heartfelt heartbreaking testimony is that moment of
▶ 1:01:38time that he was given that opportunity to turn back and what we know is that people with access to Firearms will in that moment of Despair lose that opportunity to turn back I take care of people in the Intensive Care Unit these are folks who have and almost none of them are firearm victims so my first question Master Sergeant Washington is can you comment on whether it would benefit veterans to ensure that every VA healthc
▶ 1:02:08care provider receives lethal means safety training personally I think absolutely that would be beneficial just to give the information if I understand your question just counseling right counseling yeah uh to get the information that you know here's some of the risk factors here's what's going on here's what's of of danger to you wh why why wouldn't anybody want to hear that why would that be harmful
▶ 1:02:39thank you master sergeant Washington and would it also be beneficial for Community Care Providers to receive this training uh again I I think uh I think that's that would be a Bedrock just getting that information straight from the be uh from the beginning uh my Mantra is training safety and accountability with fire firearms training safety and accountability with Firearms 100% agree um not talking about taking them away but making sure people are safe not at all very good and um in preventing veteran suicide Master
▶ 1:03:09s Sergeant Washington as you have said veteran suicide is an epidemic in this country it is unacceptable in my mind it's a tragedy that an average or more than 17 veterans die per day of suicide we have to do better by our veterans and I think are all in agreement and that um it'll require again putting that time and space in that moment of um the lowest point in someone's life and and an action they could take based on your personal
▶ 1:03:39experiences how can the VA and vsos work together to provide veterans that time and space and make meaningful progress in addressing veteran suicide rates in this country well that's a great question I think part of it is what we're doing right now having these hard conversations right now I'm hearing two very uh opposite ideas of what the system looks like and what it's doing and what it's not doing so I'm I appreciate that we're here having the conversation and also in my spoken testimony uh we we are about
▶ 1:04:10safety and securing our weapons and if somebody's in crisis being able to turn their weapons over to a friend or a colleague a trusted adviser or to the VFW just getting them out of their hand so they don't make that permanent decision for that temporary problem that's what it's all about and uh so there's a number of fronts that we we move forward on to protect our veterans some of whom like myself been in those dark times and where we are literally quite literally on a bridge
▶ 1:04:40thank you so much I I just want to state that as we discussed ni in the fiduciary program it's really important that we remain laser focused on the goal of ensuring our veterans and their families are protected from harm and really appreciate the testimony today with a yield back thank you thank you ma'am Mr s sorry you recognized for five minutes uh thank you Mr chairman I just want to make sure I'm in the right hearing we've heard a lot of issues here but the the memo that I was given says we are correcting va's
▶ 1:05:10violations of veterans due process and second amendment rights is that what this hearing is about thank you um Dr Coen for um are there other group groups of Americans that have similar processes that do not constitute what most of us consider the Constitutional High bar to take away one's second amendment rights
▶ 1:05:40are there other groups of Americans that have this same low bar so Ju Just clarification for my own purpos are you asking like are are treat veterans one way is there another group of Americans that we treat the same way without judicial or medical review right so because of 18 USC 922g
▶ 1:06:11uh the nine classes a lot of the classes are by definition require some sort of judicial review or or court order uh so for example like the question is real simple is there another group of Americans another class of Americans that are treated like our veterans yes or no I mean I get like who would like to answer that question yes sir
▶ 1:06:41Dr Reynolds I don't think so I suspect that is the answer thank you so much may I clarify uh no just just second thank you sir we've heard some things here about settled law when was uh and this may be for Dr Cohen as well when was the last time the Supreme Court uh ruled on this issue the Warren Court uh as I mentioned earlier I I don't cover legal
▶ 1:07:11issues at CRS so I can't exactly so we're we are in a constitutional uh issue here that we are discussing and as far as I know Supreme Court's never ruled on it um we need to Dr Cohen if I heard your testimony right you
▶ 1:07:41are satisfied with the with the legal procedure to do this and I looked at your written testimony I heard your spoken testimony you are satisfied if I understand you right that this is proper uh I I have not given an opinion as such uh the BR I am just straightforward saying this is how the process works I'm not saying the process is good bad or otherwise just that this is what the process looks
▶ 1:08:13like and um is it true that we put and I want to remind people of what the NX is because I heard some mental health uh issues uh uh mental health mentioned earlier this is the national instant criminal background check system we need to remember what this is criminals so I think Captain McCormick do we put uh veterans into this National instant criminal background
▶ 1:08:44check system with absolutely no evidence that they are a danger to anyone yes sir you do and you also label them as a criminal because you put them on that list uh thank you very much Mr chairman I yield back thank you myself Mr Crane sir you recognized for five minutes thank you Mr chairman for allowing me to wave on to this committee today thank you to you guys for showing up let's let's just get this straight right now what is this hearing that we're having really about
▶ 1:09:14it's really about whether or not unelected bureaucrats can strip away second amendment god-given rights from our veterans if they need help manageing their finances or their assets is that correct I think it is all right this is wrong in so many ways and what I'm hearing my colleagues on the other side of the aisle say is that well we're concerned about veteran suicide and so since most of them are committing suicide with Firearms you know we need to have
▶ 1:09:45measures and tools to you know take those Firearms away from them that's that's what I'm hearing what about civilians that are committing suicide and using fire arms are we are we going to also argue in this body that they should have their firearms and their second amendment rights taken away from them I looked up fiduciary and here's a here's a quick uh summary uh definition someone who is legally obligated to act solely in the best interest of another party managing their assets or Affairs there are many people I know and I'm sure many
▶ 1:10:15of you know people out there that need help managing their assets or their Affairs I I'm sorry but I don't remember in the Constitution where it says if somebody needs help managing their assets of or their Affairs that they should have their second amendment rights taken away from them and when it comes to Suicide a lot of these individuals a lot of veterans and there's four of us on this panel right now that are not only veterans but we're all from the Special Operations Community who I think are against this we'll tell you this right now many of our veterans that are struggling with
▶ 1:10:45PTSD and and have some of these issues that are we're talking about here today one of our biggest issues is fear and Trauma because because we thought we might lose our life or we lost our life in battle against other people with guns if you want to increase veteran suicide take some of these issues who are afraid isolated and alone and take away their ability to defend themselves that's a really good way to actually increase what these guys say that they're trying to
▶ 1:11:15stop all right I want to ask you guys a question at any point does the VA have to establish that a veteran is a threat to themselves or a danger to others when administratively reporting a veteran with a fiduciary to ncks which again is the national instant criminal system no okay thank you does having a fiduciary alone mean that someone is mentally incompetent or mentally deficient no no no
▶ 1:11:46is there any data hold on is there any data correlating having a fiduciary or being associated with increased risk of homicide or suicide no no those three quick answers right there show the American people exactly what's been taking place here violation of second amendment rights without due process uh Captain McCormick is is it due process to have unelected bureaucrats making a designation about a veteran's
▶ 1:12:17mental state or you know need of a fiduciary is that due process sir no sir it's not why do you think it's important that you know for our constitutional god-given rights to be stripped of us why do you think it should be necessary to have due process sir well so that we can ensure that that doesn't happen because if it happens to us I mean it looks like we're almost in this socio class that they're they're testing this on almost and I'm not trying to be you know uh have a conspiracy theory but we're the
▶ 1:12:47only class of citizens that they do this to yeah and Mr my my colleague Mr self over here believe you're special force is that right Mr yeah he brought up is there any other class of people that's treated this way no no no why is it fair for veterans to be treated this way not it's unfair how many veterans have lost their second amendment rights to your knowledge Mr McCormick because of these you know over overreaching VA um regulations I think the
▶ 1:13:17number was just over 270,000 sir yeah that's what I saw as well and that's why this is my bill HR 496 that that would not only stop the VA from doing this in the future but would restore the god-given constitutional rights to these veterans we need to get we need to get behind this and I hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle many of them who are not veterans would take it maybe from the veterans up here who are saying hey this isn't the way to do it and Mr Mr Washington God bless
▶ 1:13:47you sir thank you for your service and I am so I am dearly sorry for the loss of your son I mean that but Mr Washington himself said when he was filling suicidal what did he say he was running red lights on his motorcycle hoping that somebody would end it quickly or he was thinking about jumping off a bridge so let's be really clear in here right now if we're going to have tough conversations let's let's have tough conversations there are numerous countless ways to commit suicide taking firearms and constitutional rights from veterans away is not going to
▶ 1:14:17help it's actually going to hurt our veteran Community thank you I yield back thank you thank you Mr Crane Dr Morrison you recogniz ask for five minutes thank you Mr chair thank you to the witnesses uh both for your service and for being with us today to talk about this important issue uh I'm a physician by training uh and my husband is an army combat veteran a former Army Ranger so veter in suicide is an issue that um concerns me deeply and greatly and I'm
▶ 1:14:47I'm genuinely interested and I apologize that I had to step away um to another hearing but I am genuinely interested in hearing from each of you if there's time what is the single biggest most important thing that Congress could do to decrease veteran suicide can I comment please create more efficiency in the VA for treating the problems we have medically you're a physician I'm a nurse you didn't hear that but you were not here but I
▶ 1:15:17can tell you I'm a professional educator I'm a statistician you don't deal with the problems at the root level you to drive people to Suicide I am in 1993 I fac the intention of committing suicide by taking second all because of my relationship I got it I got 300 second alls from my friends and suicide and weapons are tangential but not the problem
▶ 1:15:48I took 2 years to get my disability I've been all the way to Federal to courts here in Washington a lot and a lot because of my ability to be politically and socially astute and get my way veterans are ignored veterans are suffering they're they the people say to me thank you for your service but they don't act it V the bureaucracy that exists in veterans and the idea that
▶ 1:16:18a clerk May the testimony was made earlier that yes medical testimony goes into the deter Iration but a medical person doesn't do it nobody with psychological training does it and that's the error of this whole thing we're turning it over to inept ill-trained and bureaucrats and I resent that as a combat medic it's stupid thank you sir others I would just Echo with
▶ 1:16:48what he said um again when you talk about the meaning of this this whole hearing it's about due process you're stripping these Veterans of their dignity you're St stripping them of their right to their Second Amendment right that they serve to protect and defend that's not helping at all that's hurting more than it's helping you're preventing them from getting jobs my own son can't become you know he had a job that he was supposed to become a police officer now he can't become a police officer why is that well
▶ 1:17:18because he went to combat serve this country he had some problems and he came back and he got some counseling again the stigmatist ization the over stigmatization that we're all unstable crazy and all of these other things that I've heard since I've returned from my combat tours in ' 0405 9091 and we can just go down the pike has always been are you okay are you okay just because I get upset or just because
▶ 1:17:48we happen to disagree on something we're not unstable we are okay we just need to be treated like every other citizen in this country my God I got shot three times in combat fighting for this country and you know for me to come back and for you to even even entertain the thought of taking away my constitutional Freedom that's not common sense that is not right we need to fix this thank you sir other ideas for what Congress could do
▶ 1:18:18to decrease veteran suicide yeah so we favor overhauling this process in my uh opening statement we would include a medical screening as part of this process to determine uh the veteran propensity to harm self or others and a judicial review before Nick's Nick's assignment so have two components we have control over the process because underlying the constitutional rights issue is a process and a process can be improved and that's what we propose to improve it is
▶ 1:18:48have a medical component make sure that person as much as you can is not a danger yourself or others and before Nick's assignment have a judicial review and Define all those terms define how this would go in statute thank you Mr Washington I think in my opinion uh I work with law enforcement First Responders as well as veterans and it really is about changing that stigma about mental health and seeking mental
▶ 1:19:18health counseling and we are starting to make inroads we are it's a giant super super tanker that we're trying to turn in a different direction and that's slowly happening it's not moving as fast and I know results are not the same across the board but we keep fighting that fight uh in the in the general sense thank you sir thank you again for your service and I yield my time Mr chair thank you man Mr van Orton sir five minutes thank you Mr chairman
▶ 1:19:50um Dr Cohen is the uh Veterans Affairs Administration a law enforcement agency no okay good we cleared that up um I've had with the passing of Senior Chief in my day I've had 21 of my friends commit suicide 21 of them those are all Navy Seals you didn't read about and they all died um because of spiritual wounds
▶ 1:20:20that they received by serving our country and so Dr Reynolds you're right the problem is we're not treating the cause Mr cran is right you're welcome Keith is right everybody over here when we're talking about this this issue is correct when they're saying we're not addressing the problem that we need efficiencies in the VA and I want to read something to you the sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for
▶ 1:20:50among old parchments or musty records they're written as with a Sunbeam in the whole volume of human nature by the hand of the Divinity itself it can never be erased or obscured by mortal power Alexander Hamilton wrote that 1775 and this is what he's saying he's saying that either you believe that our constitutional rights are given to us by God and simply articulated to
▶ 1:21:20us in the Constitution or you don't and if you believe believe that to be true that makes them immutable and if something is immutable it cannot be erased it cannot be erased by the hand of man it could only be erased by the hand of God so what unfortunately is taking place is that the Veterans Affairs Administration is essentially playing God because they are trying to remove something that is immutable
▶ 1:21:51and words have meaning are are country is based on this document and our country is nothing without this document we are and Mr McGarvey who I respect from man just got to tell you something when you say the the you know the medical record is the one thing now we've got a doctor here Morgan you're a Corman weren't you before okay we're both Medics right when you write a when you see a patient you write something called a soap note and the the s
▶ 1:22:21in the soap note stands for subjective then it's objective than its assessment Appliance so every single one of these medical records that we're looking at the first thing in there is a subjective view by the health care provider about the person so if it's subjective it can't be objective because that's the next line in the soap note so when we we look at that document a medical record written by human hand it's subjective and it's not immutable so philosophically
▶ 1:22:52we either have to say we're going to treat our veterans like the Apex of creation that they are and respect them or we're not and I'm not I'm not willing to take away a veterans right we fought to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic we did not fight to have a bureaucrat be able to subjectively remove our constitutional
▶ 1:23:22rights you're welcome sir and thank you for your service master Washington my wife and I Sarah Jane lost our sweet Sydney last year and I know what it means to lose a child and uh there's no Darkness at the end of that tunnel and I'm very sorry I'm very thankful that your son spoke to you on bridge but we do have to understand and we have to think globally about this and and know that we are going to lose more veterans by degrading them
▶ 1:23:52by treating us like children then we will from them committing suicide with a firearm sir you have my deepest condolences and I thank you for your son's sacrific and for your service with that I yield back thanks sir Mr Bergman sir you're recogniz for five minutes thank you Mr chairman well in listening I don't know there's anything else to be said unless you want to change small dog to puppy or happy to glad and pick pepper from fly manure
▶ 1:24:23in the end you get two piles and you can't tell which is which so how many people are left to talk Mr chairman okay all right well the point is um just as a data point sometimes this microphone is used to put out our message in such a way that it U it's not exactly adding to the goal of helping veterans it's adding
▶ 1:24:53to our social media presence and all that I get it you know if we took away microphones and cameras you know in this venue we'd have a lot more interesting I think and more productive conversations but that's just the the bias of a one of three and I repeat three remaining Vietnam veterans in Congress I mean I look to my left and right here I see you know Iraq Afghanistan veterans who've served with
▶ 1:25:23great honor under great duress there was only three of us left from Vietnam and you know Mike Thompson from California Jim bar from Indiana and me all that means is we've been around a long time and we saw in our country when we came back we weren't welcome back we saw that the country as a whole saw the mistakes made of the 60s not in not welcoming us back we got it right after Desert Shield Desert Storm
▶ 1:25:54and after you know Iraqi freedom and and during freedom and all of that so we as a society with a conscience and understanding that everything we have comes from God to include especially our rights uh not bureaucrats we have an opportunity here as we this committee sets the framework for holding the Veterans Administration accountable to the higher standards necessary to maintain the rights and the freedoms of all of
▶ 1:26:24our veterans because if they have them it's going to spread out across our population to help others especially family members who have suffered the loss as well the only thing we can do in this committee is ask questions set the stage and set the momentum it's going to be up to all of you in the trenches to get it done but I'm now I'm just going to stop here because I don't want to waste time
▶ 1:26:54and as a marine I'm basically Frugal some might say cheap I don't waste money yours mine or anybody else and I don't ammunition but we have to continue to press the message that our veterans need every bit of assistance not necessarily help but assistance to enable to live them to live their own productive lives however much time is left so with that Mr chairman I'm just going to yield back because again I'm not saying
▶ 1:27:24anything that hasn't already been said Thank You General yourself you got to thank each and every one of you uh for coming to thank you for your service Mr Washington God bless you and I'm very sorry for your loss um I remember you said you wanted to enter something into record thank you Mr chairman we would please ask unanimous consent to enter the following letter from every count for gun safety into the hearing objection thank you to all the witness testifying before us today and revealing how crucial
▶ 1:27:55it is to end va's practice of violating the Constitutional due process and second amendment rights of veterans with fiduciaries with that I yield for the ranking member for your closing statement sir thank you Mr chairman Mr uh one Mr rank um apologize Mr gr yes sir Mr chairman can I enter uh my bill HR 496 into the official record without Mr mcar
▶ 1:28:25s you recognized thank you Mr chairman thank you once again everyone for your service for being here today um as I said at the top of my hearing I hope it it truly is my hope and my desire that we can work together to address any and all of the shortcomings at the VA with regards to this and any process which have to do with our veterans care for example Captain McCormack the idea that someone is falsely reported uh is something we've got to look at and and how that happens I know that the chairman and I have
▶ 1:28:55talked a lot about where do we get to the core of this issue I think it's also worth pointing out again today that when you look at what we are doing we are talking about pre-existing laws and those laws like the 1968 gun control act like the Brady Law have not been found unconstitutional even if passed the law we are talking about today would still leave veterans with a determination of mental incompetency
▶ 1:29:26that under current law would keep them from going and purchasing a new firearm it's just that this amendment would keep it from being reported to ncks so there's a lot of work that we have to do here the effort requires thoughtful analysis what the program does what it does not do what it entails and an honest attempt to bridge these data gaps and a sincere admission of policy makers what we know and what we don't know exactly
▶ 1:29:56of how the rubber meets the road for the veterans I want to again emphasize this is about veteran safety we are not just talking about all veterans we are talking about veterans a very select subset of veterans who have not only been deemed incompetent but are claiming a disability benefit because of incompetence this is the subsection we are talking about and the only published studies we could find and we were looking for the study and the data show
▶ 1:30:26that this particular group is at a higher risk for suicide than the normal population I want to emphasize Mr chairman that everyone on our side stands ready to work with you on improving all aspects of the fiduciary program and to protect our veterans Health in a way that balances their need for treatment and a protection of their rights I yield back thank you sir um to the members once again thank you for your service to all my veterans are in the in the in the um committee room
▶ 1:30:56today thank you for your service we will myself and the committee will break this down to parade rest we will find where the problem sets exist where the Collision points are we'll make clarifications and we will move legislation to make sure that our veterans are treated like every other human being in this country and they because they absolutely have those rights I ask unanimous consent that all members have the right have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include strous materials without objection so
▶ 1:32:22e for