▶ 0:04:48Good morning. The hearing will come to It's my pleasure today to welcome Lieutenant General Butch the Chief of Engineers and Commanding of the United States Army Corps of Engineers to discuss the state of the Civil Works program. Joining General Graham are Major General Mark C.
▶ 0:05:12Quander, Commanding General of the Great Lakes and Ohio River Division, Brigadier General Daniel Hibner, Commanding General of the South Atlantic Colonel James J. Handura, Commander of the South Pacific Division, and Colonel George H. Walter, Commander of the Southwestern Division.
▶ 0:05:36These division commanders have made themselves available to address project execution from a local and regional perspective. Before I talk about my formal remarks, uh gentlemen, I want to thank each and every one of you all for what you do for our country, not only for the Army Corps of Engineers, our great United States Army and service to our great nation.
▶ 0:06:04Um it's with profound thanks that uh we do this hearing today. Um and as Chairman, this subcommittee, and I would say our full committee, uh my dear friend Marcy Kaptur Kaptur from Ohio would probably agree with me. Uh we are civil, we are cordial. When there are differences, we understand that. But it's with the utmost respect that we have you before us here today, and I say that as Chairman um of this full subcommittee.
▶ 0:06:34Gentlemen, few federal programs have such a direct and immediate impact on the American people's daily lives as the Army Corps of Engineers Civil Works The mission underpins America's economic competitiveness, promotes public safety, and protects trillions of dollars in private investment and economic Congress expects the Corps to address some of the nation's most complex and high-profile challenges, and the Corps does tremendous
▶ 0:07:05work to deliver on this critical mission. The Corps also faces many challenges inherent to government contracting. We would all prefer to see federal construction projects delivered at the cost and speed of the private sector.
▶ 0:07:25patterns have emerged in recent years that go beyond the regular course of I continue to hear from my colleagues and stakeholders about projects of all sizes in different parts of the country, and with little else in common, all facing similar issues and fact patterns. The Chickamauga Lock in my district, the great third district of Tennessee, has experienced many of these same challenges, which we will have time to discuss later in the hearing.
▶ 0:07:54Congress has provided record funding for the Corps in annual energy and water appropriation acts, and tens of billions more in supplemental appropriations over much of the last decade. We have funded several major construction projects to completion, some multiple times, only for the Corps to tell us they need more. Projects are derailed due to inadequate engineering, requiring the Corps to go back to the drawing board in the middle of construction.
▶ 0:08:26The Corps has all but abandoned design and engineering when studying projects to recommend for construction, leading Chiefs of Engineers to certify cost estimates and project plans based on concepts, not designs. We are building the plane while we are flying it. Meanwhile, we've heard from many Corps stakeholders about the need to modernize the Corps's contracting process. Private industry would never procure complex infrastructure projects in the same way.
▶ 0:08:57Contracting improvements alone can reduce uncertainty, improve affordability, and enhance engineering quality earlier in the life of a Many project sponsors feel they have no choice but to plead with our friends on the authorizing committees for the federal government to put larger shares of these much larger bills.
▶ 0:09:18I don't blame anyone who comes to that but every time that that cycle repeats, the choices facing subcommittee become more difficult, worsening the outlook for every project in America. The Corps executes a no-fail mission, and there is always more to be done. We need to finish what we start so that we can deliver for our constituents, and achieving those goals requires the Corps to define success and measure progress.
▶ 0:09:48General Graham, sir, you are new in this role, and I cert and you certainly have your work cut out for you. I greatly appreciate the attention that you have already given to these issues and the vision you laid out in your written testimony. I look forward to today's discussion and working with you, sir, to promote a healthy and sustainable civil works program for the American people. I will now turn to my friend and ranking member, Ms. Kaptur, for her opening Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:10:18Uh it is such a great turnout this morning on both sides of the aisle here. This is a wonderful committee, and I'm just thankful everyone is here, including our honored guests, the Corps uh of Engineers Civil uh program, civil works program. And I want to thank you and all of those who work under your command uh for your dedication to the civil works of our country going back to close to our founding. Uh there aren't too many organizations that can say that.
▶ 0:10:46And the American people thank you for your service uh not just here in our country, but many times called upon around the world, as well as my uncle, who served in the Engineers Corps during World War at the Battle of the Bulge. I want to thank uh my friend and colleague, Chair Fleischmann, for holding this hearing. While Congress is uh about a half a year late already, uh and it's still not finished our jobs for the fiscal year of 2025.
▶ 0:11:16Should have been done October, November, December, January, February, moving into March, half a year late. Uh not our fault. Not our fault. We show up. Um I hope that um if we were left to our own, we could find bipartisan compromise. And I hope those ultimately in charge in this institution will soon find a bipartisan solution to keep the government open next month and for the remainder of this fiscal year of 2025. And I know how difficult that makes your lives. Thank you for your endurance.
▶ 0:11:45The Corps of Engineers plays a critical role in developing the resources of our land and generating enough power for 11 million homes every year. I figured out last night. I guess that's at least 10% of our country. You figure 33 million uh people um uh I don't have the exact number, but that's pretty impressive, and we hope in the future you'll be able to do more.
▶ 0:12:07The Corps builds America for generations to come, strengthening our economy, and sustaining life on our corner of Mother Earth, ensuring public safety against the now constant onslaught of both natural and human-caused disasters across our country. In 2024, uh there were 27 confirmed major weather and climate disaster events with losses for each exceeding a billion dollars.
▶ 0:12:34These included droughts, flooding, severe storms, and wildfires, and the cost totaled over 182 billion dollars just for last year, the fourth costliest year on record. We can all see our property insurance bills Uh the people I represent know it, and the Corps knows why.
▶ 0:12:55You need a bigger microphone to explain to the country what is really Uh I can attest that in 2023 in our Great Lakes region adjoining the Canadian border, when I arrived home, I experienced the smoky fallout of never happened before. It was so eerie. Uh the smo- uh the uh smoke from wildfires burning way further up north in Canada. We weren't anywhere near California.
▶ 0:13:18And um the air was so hazy, and my entire garden, which I prided myself on, uh was covered with brownish-black soot by the next morning. It was just eerie. And uh my poor rhododendron didn't bear that year. And I hope this year she'll come back. But that had never happened in our region.
▶ 0:13:38Uh just thinking about addressing the outcomes of the Palisades and Eaton fires in Los Angeles overwhelms a casual And we thank you for your assistance in helping those who've been so impacted. It is undeniable that we are witnessing growing weather events stemming from climate change occurring in real time before our very eyes.
▶ 0:13:58The US Army Corps of Engineers is needed now more than ever to devise modern approaches to changing freshwater cycles, whether it's down the Mississippi, in the Great Lakes, or the arid West. With an increasingly volatile climate, the Corps must plan and implement solutions to make our communities more resilient.
▶ 0:14:18Investments in the critical water infrastructure of our nation allow the Corps to focus on your significant missions across our country, keeping commerce safely flowing on our waterways, and uh what's happening along the Mississippi. We hope you can tell us a little more about that today. Managing flood risks through dams, levees, and shoreline protection, restoring ecosystems, and building local clean water and drinking water infrastructure.
▶ 0:14:46I hope you even get more into that uh today and in the future. There's no doubt that every member of Congress is impacted by your work, and there's bipartisan in this Congress for your work because you've been so successful. However, the Corps has faced numerous challenges in engineering and design, schedule delays, cost overruns, and contractor performance, most of which isn't your fault uh that correlate with these massive weather events, workforce shortages, and supply backups.
▶ 0:15:14In the Great Lakes region, which I know best, projects like the Soo Locks are a prime example of investments that will turbocharge our economy. They will assure the modernization and efficiency of our maritime transportation system. But the project has experienced time delays and very significant cost escalations. Enlightening our subcommittee on why this is occurring will be appreciated.
▶ 0:15:37Similarly, the Brandon Road project is aimed at arresting the economic and environmental damage unleashed by this creature called the invasive Asian carp that if not checked, will exterminate the $7 native fishery that is Lake Erie. More fish in Lake Erie than all the other Great Lakes combined. And of course, Lake Erie and all the related Great Lakes have the longest coastline in the nation to over 2,600 miles.
▶ 0:16:07However, this particular Brandon Road project is another example of one burdened with cost increases and delays. The Great Lakes and Mississippi ecosystems are drastically different. And I remain very concerned that the Great Lakes fishery faces daunting challenges uh with the Brandon Road investments, what the governor of Illinois has just done, and that we may be heading into a period where there were proposals to
▶ 0:16:37shut off the confluence of the Mississippi and the Great Lakes uh waterways. I am very troubled with the solution that was finally arrived at in whether it will it be su- whether it will be successful in meeting this really terrible challenge. The Corps is fully aware that it must address project execution challenges. Our constituents depend on the successful completion of these projects, and the additional costs are ultimately paid by the taxpayers.
▶ 0:17:04Again, I want to thank the witnesses for being here along with all of our dear members to discuss how the Corps is learning lessons from these challenges and trying to implement new solutions across the country. With that, I'll close my remarks, and I look forward to the discussion. Thank you all. I thank the distinguished ranking chair for her remarks, and I thank you, our witnesses, for being here today.
▶ 0:17:27Please ensure that the hearing record, questions for the record, and any supporting information requested by the subcommittee are delivered, please, in final form to us no later than 4 weeks from the time that you receive them. Members who have additional questions for the record will have until the close of business Friday to provide them to the subcommittee office. Without objection, your full written testimony will be entered into the record.
▶ 0:17:53With that in mind, we would ask that you please summarize your opening statement in 5 minutes. General Graham, you are now recognized, sir, for your opening statement. Chairman Fleischmann, Ranking Member Kaptur, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss the civil works program. Major General Kelly, our deputy for civil and emergency operations, was supposed to testify here today, but he's in Los Angeles leading our wildfire debris removal mission that we're executing under FEMA.
▶ 0:18:24The president's intent was clear: move fast to help people. Currently, we're about a month of what our original schedule was. We have 115 crews actively removing fire debris from private residences and are adding more crews as homeowners provide rights of entry. We will continue to add resources as required until all the fire debris is safely and swiftly removed. Thank you again for letting me be here instead of General Kelly.
▶ 0:18:48Through the civil works program, the the Corps works with state, tribal, and local agencies to study, build, and operate water resource projects. Breaking the program down into its components, the navigation program, as we heard this morning, underpins the entire national economy. Ensuring that commodities can move reliably and efficiently along 12,000 miles of inland waterway, 13,000 miles of inner coastal waterway, and into 1,000 coastal, Great Lakes, and inland harbors.
▶ 0:19:1498% of overseas trade and 48% of consumer goods moves through these The Corps's flood risk management program maintains 746 dams and 13,000 miles of federal levees that prevent an astounding 200 billion dollars of damages every year. The Corps's recreation program, not to be forgotten, includes more than 400 lakes and river projects, which provide rec- recreational opportunities to These are important programs that the nation has entrusted to the Army Corps.
▶ 0:19:42Our objective every day is to safely deliver quality projects on schedule within budget. We've been working hard over the last 5 years to leverage these new business intelligence tools to measure how we're meeting this objective. Our current on-schedule rate across our entire portfolio is 73%. That's a C, and that's When we look into our costs and schedule shortfalls, drive put the drivers into two categories, uncontrollable and controllable factors.
▶ 0:20:11Uncontrollable factors include inflation and labor shortages. According to the Associated General Contractors, construction inflation over the last 5 years is around 34%. Labor, particularly for skilled trades, is tight, leading to wage growth of 25%. Construction materials and diesel fuel have increased 38% and 58% respectively. As you'd expect, we've put most of our effort into those things that we can control.
▶ 0:20:40We've grouped these into three main areas: get the engineering right, get the project management right, and get the business Getting the engineering right. Our cost estimates must be based on sufficiently mature engineering designs, at least As you'll hear today, we've allowed projects to be authorized with the engineering well well below that 35% threshold. In these instances, it wasn't so much the cost of increased, rather it was that our initial estimates were way way too optimistic.
▶ 0:21:11My pledge to this committee is that I will only sign Chiefs reports when I'm convinced that the that we've got the engineering right with sufficient maturity. Our second controllable focus area is get the project management right. We must improve our ability to stay in control of our projects by setting realistic schedules. There is a very insightful GAO report that captures the prevalence of optimism bias across most federal contracting.
▶ 0:21:38To combat this bias, we've instituted monthly reviews at the division and headquarters level to monitor the quality of our schedules. Our third controllable focus area is get the business right. Here, our intent is to improve schedule performance by properly resourcing the work with the right manning levels or by contracting the work out with the right acquisition strategies. Get the engineering right, get the project management right, get the business right. Thank you again for inviting us here today.
▶ 0:22:07I believe that if we stay focused on those three fundamentals, we'll deliver the outputs we all seek. Thank I want to thank you, General Graham. We will now begin with questions, sir, starting with my own.
▶ 0:22:34General, I have always maintained a positive working relationship with the Chief of Engineers and the district and division commanders. My goals remain the same, and we must finish Chickamauga Lock. For fiscal year 2023, sir, we thought we were $39 million away from completing the project.
▶ 0:22:58In fiscal year 2025 and $237 million later, we cannot award the completion contract and are expecting another significant cost increase. General Graham, I appreciate your focus on getting the fundamental building blocks right to avoid these kinds of issues in the future. This work is not glamorous, but these details make all the difference.
▶ 0:23:24However, if we do not define the goals clearly and measure progress toward toward them, we cannot expect different My first question, sir, is what will be different in 3 years if you've been successful in putting the civil works program on a path to stability and cost and schedule efficiency, sir? Chairman Fleischmann, what we'll see is we're delivering on our commitments.
▶ 0:23:52And first step is to let's make good commitments at the very beginning. As in as I mentioned in my opening statement, all of that is predicated on on getting the engineering right. Um there's a great book that's out by a Dutch economist. He's a professor at Oxford. It's called How Big Things Get Done, and most of us are are reading it. And in there, one of its main premises are go slow to go fast.
▶ 0:24:22And by that, it's take the time necessary during the feasibility stage to make sure that you've thought through the engineering and that you've got all the stakeholders on board. Um we failed that at Chickamauga. Worse, we had a poor contractor. Uh we're doing our best to to work with that contractor to pull that pull that contract across the finish line.
▶ 0:24:47But 3 years from now, I expect that our on-time percentage, as I mentioned, it's 73% right now, to be well above 80%. Last point, sir, is that that look is I don't when I take a look at our on-time percentage rate, that's a leading look as much as it is a look in the rearview mirror. So, we're looking at the commitments we're making today and seeing are we on track for those commitments we've made in the future. Yes, sir.
▶ 0:25:16Uh I have two follow-up questions, sir, and you may have already answered that in this. So, if you would like to expand on that or supplement it, the two follow-up questions, sir. What quantitative metrics have you put in place to measure success and apply lessons learned to future studies and projects?
▶ 0:25:34And then, when the next change of command arrives and you are assessing your tenure as Chief of Engineers, sir, by what metrics will you judge your own It it's as simple as are we safely delivering quality projects on schedule within budget? And it can be a $3 billion lock and dam up at Sault or can be a small wastewater infrastructure project somewhere in Tennessee. All of those are important to someone.
▶ 0:26:02So, I often get asked, "Chairman, are you going to prioritize the work you're doing?" Absolutely not. We are project funded, which means we can expand and contract as we are authorized and appropriated to do the work. And so, when we sign up to deliver, that's our commitment to you. Thank you, sir. I realize I have a little bit time left, but we have such a very robust ties, which I'm very fortunate for, sir.
▶ 0:26:27So, at this time, I'm going to recognize our distinguished ranking member for 5 minutes for questions, Ms. Kaptur. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General, through funding that Congress provided last year, the Corps allocated $10 million to the city of Toledo to initiate and complete construction to rehabilitate raw water mains and water supply.
▶ 0:26:51Our water was cut off for 3 days back in 2014, and there's issues when our water draw in Toledo is only 20 ft below the surface, and when the wind blows east to Buffalo, uh we face the risk of not having water. Uh General Quander, uh thank you for working with us to try to fund the critical work uh for Toledo. Do you commit to execute this project and these funds expeditiously? Ranking uh member Kaptur, thank you for that question.
▶ 0:27:18Um and for for that section 594 program for for the city of Toledo, we're absolutely committed to partnering with them. Um They've been a great partner, and just talking to the district, we expect them to sign a letter of intent here pretty Thank you. Uh General Graham, the Corps has often struggled uh to execute environmental infrastructure projects in a timely manner.
▶ 0:27:40What is the Corps doing to improve its efficiency in implementing environmental infrastructure across the Uh Ranking member Kaptur, as was mentioned earlier, all projects are important, whether a small infra- environmental infrastructure project or a huge lock and dam project. And so, the districts must must make sure that the project delivery teams on all those projects are capable of doing the work assigned.
▶ 0:28:11We know in other programs, not under your jurisdiction, like nuclear nuclear submarines, we're going to be spending an additional $2 billion plus uh in order to meet the delivery. Um but the problem there is uh people who can actually do the work properly and shortages in the industrial base As you look at your organization, do you face the same shortages?
▶ 0:28:36And could you be more specific about which competencies you lack and uh human competencies? And then, on the capability side, what in the industrial base is not serving you well? Ma'am, let me start with the industrial base. We know that our pool of large contractors that can do like a $3 billion uh project like up at the the Sault, that that has shrunk over the years.
▶ 0:29:01And similar to when I look at the the military side of the Army, the industrial base over there has has shrunk as well. So, we're working to ensure that um we're maximizing the competition. The the our ability to leverage our small business program to continue to assist small businesses growing into large businesses. That's that's one of the goals that we have to increase capacity of um our contracting base.
▶ 0:29:31On the Corps internal side, you get good at something by having reps and sets. And so, if a district is only going to do a certain project once every 5 years, we're going to consolidate that work so that the team that's doing it does it more often. A good example for this, ma'am, is our locks and dams right now.
▶ 0:29:49We've got one design center that we've gone to and they're doing all of the design across the nation and we're going down to two production centers, one in Rock Island and one in Pittsburgh, and they will do all of the Um I want to hit just move to Brandon Road real quickly in my time. we fought intensively to prevent the spread of the Asian carp into the Great Lakes and we're not through this problem yet. Um you know what its aim is.
▶ 0:30:17Uh I was going to ask General Graham, this project has struggled with delays due to negotiating the necessary agreements among the core and multiple non-federal sponsors. How are you providing transparency and certainty to the non-federal sponsors that the core will meet its obligations? And then General Graham, I'm going to ask you, this project was estimated to cost $830 million in 2021. After additional engineering work was done, the cost estimate now is 1.1 billion. How is the core improving its initial cost estimating?
▶ 0:30:45And will it be able to What do you now projecting for this I think General Graham. Yes. I'll take that. The uh ensuring that the the engineering is of sufficient maturity, that that's the the Rosetta Stone for for all of this.
▶ 0:31:06Um for Brandon Roads in particular, with uh with the various states and non-federal sponsors engaged, it's making sure that we've got alignment that this project meets their needs. I know there's some challenges right now, but we're absolutely committed to continuing to work with our non-federal sponsors to meet those challenges. On on the engineering, we talked about the uncontrollable factors, particularly the inflation and the the struggle with um contractor capacity.
▶ 0:31:35So we will continue to work with industry to maximize um their capability. Thank you. My time is expired. Thank you. Uh at this time, I would like to recognize my my friend from California, the distinguished chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee, on which I'm privileged to serve under him, Chairman Calvert. Thank you, uh Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:32:04And I first I want to thank uh the former Assistant Secretary of the Army, uh long friend of mine, Mike Connor, uh and Colonel Hendura for their work on the Majestic Chino project in the Prado Basin. The team helped navigate this uh 408 permit problem. We helped uh move that project forward, but I think it created a new precedent within the core for future projects and I I I thank you for that and I appreciate that. I also want to thank you for the work you're doing in LA.
▶ 0:32:31Uh it's uh obviously a tremendous disaster for the people in Los Angeles. 7,000 structures. The debris removal is a tremendous job. I know uh we waived the California Environmental Quality Act, NEPA, uh also the California Coastal Commission to to accelerate that project as quickly as possible and I appreciate your work in getting that debris removal out as as quickly as possible. Uh the Prado Dam project is in my congressional district.
▶ 0:33:01I I secured full funding for the Santa Ana River Mainstem uh funding in the 2018 budget act. The final component of the Mainstem project involves raising the Prado spillway to accommodate a higher level of flood protection, which was fully funded. The Prado Dam in Corona also requires a dam safety project.
▶ 0:33:21The Prado Dam one almost 1 and 1/2 million people, $61 billion in property from potential flooding in 29 cities and the Riverside and the Orange County. In an effort to complete both objectives in a more cost-effective way, the core pursued a unified project that will accommodate both the dam safety objectives and the goals of the Mainstem project. However, uh your FY23 uh budget justification for construction estimated cost for this project was $650 million.
▶ 0:33:52The following fiscal year in '24, the estimated federal cost of project increased significantly to 1.3 billion. And frankly, I'm concerned about uh what will be included in the FY26 construction budget. Project is a prime example of what we have this hearing today, which is to evaluate project execution, project formation, and contracting. With regard to this what is being done to resolve these issues and do you anticipate additional that are not already included in the requested amount?
▶ 0:34:20Do you anticipate additional design charges? Hey, sir. I'm going to turn that Prado piece over to my colleague, Colonel Walter, who's my teammate, and then I'll follow up afterwards. Thank you, sir. Very much appreciate the question. So as we look at Prado in particular, I'd like to hearken back to the chairman's opening comments about trying to find a path to do our business better, particular to our acquisition strategies.
▶ 0:34:46What we've done at Prado is we're pursuing an integrated design and construction contract, which is a contracting mechanism that industry uses, which shares risk across both uh the contractor and the federal government. The intent of this is to drive down the price during construction. So after a pre-construction services, there is a follow-on contract that is an option that is incentivized to the contractor to come below the target price, where they're basically doing saving sharing.
▶ 0:35:14So that's one of the tools we're looking at to try and get the cost back into a uh in actionable area. Um we do anticipate there are some going to There are continue to be some cost increase that is mainly due to what we've already discussed, the market forces, and then also the addition of contingency uh in this contract mechanism. The sooner you can get that information to us, the better, for we can plan on that. One other project is Murrieta Creek flood protection uh restoration recreation project.
▶ 0:35:44Uh that's been moving forward. Um We got the $39 million requested for completion of uh the phase 2B of the Uh I'm also concerned about this being delayed and additional design issues and additional costs that seem to continue to change as time goes on. So um hopefully that there's a uh we can get the successful uh bid out and and get this project complete. I think I've been working on this thing for 30 years. I can get it done in my lifetime.
▶ 0:36:14What do you What do you think, Colonel? We're going to get it done. Sir, I'm not trying to you know to move on to somebody else here, okay? Sir, let me talk about Murrieta. So sir, we're on track schedule for the award of the last reach, that's the phase 2B in June of this year, 2025, and then we're looking at construction fall of 2025, sir. You're going to stick to that? Yes, sir. Okay, great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. Thank you, Chairman Calvert.
▶ 0:36:44Um at this time, I'd like to recognize my friend and a new member to the full committee and to the subcommittee, distinguished gentleman from California, Mr. Levin. For 5 minutes. Well, I thank my dear friend, the chairman, and it it's truly an honor to to be with you all and um I want to associate myself with my colleagues' comments thanking you for the hard work uh in LA. I had the opportunity to go go and tour with a number of the committee members recently and and it's just an incredible amount of work and and I'm very grateful for it.
▶ 0:37:12Uh I have the great honor to represent about 50 miles of beautiful Southern California coastline, uh about an hour south of there, in Orange County and San Diego County. Come visit anytime. Uh we uh really have had a tremendous relationship with the Army Corps of Engineers. Particularly Particularly want to thank uh Colonel Hendura and and everyone for all the great work these last 6 years. We know firsthand the threats presented by coastal erosion, storm damage, and flooding.
▶ 0:37:40And the Army Corps continues to support numerous critical projects that maintain the integrity of infrastructure throughout our congressional district. This past year, after many ups and downs, I'm pleased that we completed the first renourishment of the San Clemente shoreline project, as well as the Encinitas Solana Beach project, to deliver sand for my constituents and to protect our vital coastal infrastructure.
▶ 0:38:02Uh Colonel Hendura, again, I want to personally thank you, as well as Colonel Baker at the LA District and General Spellman, former commanding general for the core, for helping to make sure these projects were completed. And while completing these projects was a win, it also demonstrated the limitation that our core faces in the Pacific region. There's very limited dredge capacity in the Pacific, which increases costs and threatens both maintenance and emergency dredging needs and the ability to complete projects in the necessary dredging windows.
▶ 0:38:30Months and even years-long dredging delays negatively impact communities, beaches, and the movement of goods through our ports and harbors. We must ensure adequate annual funding for the core plant replacement improvement program to support the core's infrastructure needs and make sure the core has the capacity it needs to best serve communities like mine throughout the entire Pacific Colonel Hendura, the city of Oceanside has experienced significant coastal erosion challenges since the construction of Camp Pendleton Harbor in 1942.
▶ 0:38:59And the federal government has acknowledged that construction of the harbor jetties was a direct contributing cause of this erosion. I appreciate that the core is finally nearing completion of the Oceanside mitigation study to study uh this right or to to right this wrong, I should say, after nearly 25 years of work. Nearly 20 That's pretty stunning. So it's of the utmost importance to my constituents that the core fully analyze a beach fill only alternative. That's the key, a beach fill only alternative.
▶ 0:39:26To get more sand on the badly eroded coastline, especially since there are strong local concerns about the construction of groynes. So can you commit, sir, that the core will work collaboratively with the city of Oceanside and other local governments in the area as you analyze alternatives to mitigate for the coastal erosion caused by Camp Pendleton Harbor. Sir, thank you for that question and uh we're moving forward on that mitigation study with plans to undertake sampling sediment sampling in FY25, the window of May to September.
▶ 0:39:55USACE has a legal and policy may have a legal USACE legal and policy barrier to implementing sponsor requested alternative evaluation on the beach fill because this is a mitigation study and we're restricted to the least cost plan. Any deviation of this would require a policy determination by the administration. Uh we understand the stakeholders have uh broad concerns with the potential environmental damages associated by the groin alternative.
▶ 0:40:22And we're committed to using our stakeholder engagement process required under NEPA to ensure we have the locally accepted Thank you. Local acceptance is key and I'll be watching this very closely and really want you to work collaboratively with our city and our community. Let me turn to another project, the San Luis Rey River flood control project, which the Corps's been working on since before I was born. I'm 46 years old.
▶ 0:40:46Uh I remain deeply concerned about the low level of flood flood protection that the project presently provides despite over five decades of work and tens of millions of local dollars that have already been contributed to the project. Uh Colonel, what assurances can you give me that the Corps will move diligently towards the implementation of a construction plan that ensures first that the highest priority necessary work for flood control is accomplished as soon as possible and second that the entire project is finished efficiently.
▶ 0:41:14Sir, thank you for that question and uh we're committed to finishing what we've started on that project contingent upon funding and engineering analysis for the levee and the sand plug. Uh we've been on uh trying to wrap this project up since reauthorization awarded 2020. We appreciate the 7 million in funding received to do the geotechnical evaluation and that report will inform if further levee repairs are needed. The geotechnical analysis is is on schedule to be completed by this March of 2025.
▶ 0:41:42The sand plug analysis is needed to determine if it could be removed safely or if it or naturally it requires this and the sand plug removal is needed to complete the project to to provide the channel capacity to to uh pass the 100-year event. I'm out of time, but I would like to ask for a follow-up meeting with the Los Angeles District and South Pacific Division uh so we can get the project moving. Absolutely, sir. Thank you and I'll ask other questions for the record and I'll yield back, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Levin.
▶ 0:42:11At this time, I'd like to recognize the distinguished vice of this uh committee, uh new to the subcommittee and proud to be my partner here, um Mr. um Goodness gracious, Mr. Chairman Cloud of Texas from Corpus Christi area. It's an honor to have you with us, sir. Well, thank you, Chairman. It's an honor to be here and look forward to continuing to serve you and this committee and and our nation. Want to thank you all for being here and thank you for the work that you do.
▶ 0:42:41Uh anytime I'm sitting in front of people who've have uh distinguished military service like you all, I'm I'm humbled and thank you for your service. Appreciate it. Uh I also want to say uh thank you for the the great work that's being done along the Texas coast uh where I represent um you know, I Port of Corpus Christi, our number one energy export port, is coming to completion.
▶ 0:43:03That's because of a lot of the great work that, you all are doing and we're excited to see that happening and all it's going to mean not only for our national economy, but what it's going to mean for our allies as we're able to support them with energy around around the world. I I do want to touch on uh the Matagorda ship channel. This has been kind of a a sticking point as we move through. We had a project that had a record of decision in an unprecedented move, the Biden administration rescinded uh the record of decision.
▶ 0:43:30That had never been done before uh and sent the project back to basically zero starting point. And so we've been working to move this forward as quickly as possible. You know, we've had a number of meetings to to do what we can to squeeze that timeline as much as possible.
▶ 0:43:44I've been concerned uh about the Corps's willingness in the previous administration to uh to uh I'm trying to think of a a polite way to say this, but to acquiesce to uh certain environmentalist groups who've looked to put roadblocks who their stated position is to kill the project. Um I understand we we want to build and we want to do it reliably and responsibly and those kind of things.
▶ 0:44:11Uh but when your stated uh objective is to put every sort of hindrance into the project in an effort to kill it, I get very concerned about that. Uh and and so we've seen this timeline continue to slip and in light of President Trump's new executive order, which, you know, it's a dozen pages or so, so I won't read it all, but uh he talks about the importance of speed. Burdensome ideologically motivated regulations have impeded the development of our our natural resources.
▶ 0:44:38He talks about the national interest unleash America's affordability and reliable energy and natural resources. And he goes on and he basically says we need to find a way to expedite this going forward. And you being in the Army know that we're in a massive competition globally and especially with China and they seem to be able to build things quicker than we can. Uh and so I I'd like to know what we can do to move this project forward very quickly uh and efficiently uh going forward.
▶ 0:45:03I was concerned again uh you know, as we're looking at delays in this project that there was a Justice 40 seminar that the Corps took time to spend time on that day. Uh meanwhile, we have projects not moving forward and so I I I'd like to have some sort of confidence in what we can do to to speedline this timeline in light of the President Trump's new executive order. Sir, if you don't mind, I'll take that one. I'll see you again. Um so Matagorda is one where we did get the engineering wrong.
▶ 0:45:31You and I discussed that uh when we met the last time. So as we look forward, we've actually are just wrapping up the supplemental uh EIS, um the environmental impact statement for that area. Um when we had to place the dredge material, we needed to look through it. We looked very good on that. I just actually signed a validation review of the path forward.
▶ 0:45:51We believe I believe that in November of '25 we'll be able to release, so this November, uh release for public comment the report with a post authorization change request uh the following year, November of '26, which would allow um to understand the full uh cost of that project. Um for going forward, we absolutely remained um committed to monitoring and holding ourselves accountable. Um the chief had mentioned the monthly um reviews of our programs.
▶ 0:46:20So keeping an eye on our metrics for how we're doing and looking forward to make sure that as milestones are approaching, we're prepared for them so that we can ensure that we're not eating into contingency and going long on things. Uh one other question I had on this particular project, too, is is the BCR has been an issue, benefit cost ratio, which normally I'm for. I'm a fiscal hawk and so I always want us to have a good ROI on this. This is one where we have a non-federal sponsor willing to pay for almost the whole project.
▶ 0:46:47Uh and yet there has been no sort of uh allowance made for that or consideration for that uh in our conversations despite my many efforts to to bring kind of common sense to this equation.
▶ 0:47:01Um and uh so my hope is that that would not be an hindrance moving forward and anything you can uh speak to that, especially in light of we have groups that are specifically trying to move the cost up to make that formula not work and so that the American people wouldn't be able to have access to the the completion of this congressionally authorized project. sir, I think it's it's fair to say we are mindful of that. Um Rhett, who's down at Galveston, he and I uh traded notes on this yesterday as far as the value to the American people. So we remain focused on that.
▶ 0:47:31Um any discussion outside for the compo- the policy side of it, I'd really have to defer back to the administration um and then the Army uh on the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works to go through the implementation for Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for all your work. Thank you, Chairman. I yield back. Thank the vice chairman for his questions. At this time, I'd like to recognize my friend from the great state of Indiana, Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. 5 minutes. Thank you, Chairman.
▶ 0:48:00Uh and thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony today. Uh before I get to my first question, I want to first take a minute to recognize the important work of the US US Army Corps of Engineers, which is a critical strengthening uh the economy, a critical role in strengthening the economy of Northwest Indiana and the entire Midwest and our nation.
▶ 0:48:18I'm privileged to represent Indiana's first congressional district, which is home to 40 miles of Lake Michigan shoreline, three major river corridors, the Grand Calumet River, Little Calumet, the Grand Calumet River, the Little Calumet River, and the Kankakee River, as well as the Trail Creek, Burns Harbor, and Indiana Harbor waterways. It is a center of vital road, rail, air, and port networks in the Great Lakes region and is home to major manufacturing industries.
▶ 0:48:44This infrastructure in conjunction with our labor workforce and proximity to Chicago enables our region to attract new commercial and residential interests and There is no doubt projects under the jurisdiction of the US Cor- US Corps of Engineers serve as an economic driver of Indiana's first congressional district and I am grateful for their missions in our region.
▶ 0:49:05I cannot tell you how many times I have stood with mayors and other state and local officials who have shared that your work has facilitated economic development, enhanced the quality of life for residents in our region.
▶ 0:49:18I also appreciate our partnership with other economic drivers in our region, including the dredging initiatives at the international port of the Burns permitting the Gary Chicago Airport and efforts to protect our shoreline and clean our waterways, particularly through the Grand the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative.
▶ 0:49:37My father was one of the long serve one of the longest serving members of the Indiana General Assembly and then as a young child I remember attending public forums with him and other stakeholders, including the representatives from the to address the toxic pollution found in the Grand Calumet River.
▶ 0:49:54I'm proud that the federal government, including the EPA in partnerships with the core, has made such great progress and I am hopeful that as we move forward we can finish this work to remove over a century of industrial discharge and benefit the countless residents, and environment of Northwest Indiana for the next century. And I look forward to working with all of you.
▶ 0:50:16Uh My first question is for Major General Uh in my district and across the Great Lakes, some projects have been slowed because of the difficulty of finding somewhere to put contaminated dredge materials. How does the dredging and the management of the dredge materials impact the core's ability to carry out its mission with respect to dredging and the operations and maintenance? Representative Mr. Mr. Van, sir, thank you for that question.
▶ 0:50:44Um In terms of dredging, each state has some different uh we have engagements with different states with dredging. Um and and as you um We just we have different engagements with different states in terms of With um Illinois, with uh the state of um and then um those states.
▶ 0:51:11Representative, we we need some additional capacity for dredging, uh clearly in the Great Lakes. And then uh we need some opportunities now we dispose of the dredging. Um and like I said, we have some different challenges in different What are the opportunities for the What does the future look like? Representative Mr.
▶ 0:51:30Van, in terms of opportunities for disposal, and um we have our uh confined disposal facilities, um which we know we have in the state of Correct. Uh I know you have that in your district. Um up in the Great Lakes though, we have some challenges in terms of Illinois with the uh Calumet confined disposal facility. And so as we're trying to dispose, we're kind of at an impasse at that location.
▶ 0:52:00One other quick question, uh General, with respect to the Great Lakes Coastal Resiliency Study, can you explain the benefits of studying the variability, the viability of lake levels and the shorelines, as well as the potential economic impacts that these in fluctuate these fluctuations may have at the Great Lakes coastal Yes, sir.
▶ 0:52:23So um in terms of the Great Lakes Resiliency Study, we've repeatedly experienced negative impacts in both the high and low lake levels in the past 30 years. Um flooding and coastal erosion uh have occurred more frequently. Uh that partnership with the uh with the eight Great Lakes states has been hugely important and it's town allowing us to look at uh lake levels um and also studying potential vulnerabilities in those lake levels and make recommendations.
▶ 0:52:50We've just completed the uh first milestone of the shared vision and we'll be looking to incorporate uh projects after we continue to progress on that Great Lakes Okay. Look forward to working with you in the future. Thank you. With that, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Mr. Van. Uh at this time I'd like to acknowledge and recognize my friend uh Mr. Franklin from the great state of Florida.
▶ 0:53:17Gentlemen, uh this man has had a distinguished career in our great United States Navy as an aviator and um just a great member new member of this subcommittee. Glad to have you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, gentlemen, for being here today. I have the privilege of representing Florida's 18th Congressional District, which is the heartland of the state of Florida. I'll tell everybody it's the it's the south half of Florida with no salt water. So So if that gives you bearings.
▶ 0:53:42But as you all probably know, there's a tremendous amount of work you all do in my district, the Western Ever Everglades Restoration Plan. Uh that's that's in our district, all the watershed that feeds that uh has a tremendous amount of projects that you all are involved in. So you are top of mind for many of my constituents and I appreciate all the work you do. Um we can always do things better and I and I know I'm I'm sensing that from you all. There's a spirit there to try to improve our processes. We always want to do government, you know, better, faster, cheaper, and fix people's problems.
▶ 0:54:10Uh so I want to dive in a little bit um General Hebner, this is probably most appropriate to you uh to talk about the Section 404 uh Clean Water Act permitting. Uh and this is really just an example that can scale across anywhere else within the core, but just talking about the efficiencies in in this program. In 2016, the Army Corps Jacksonville District approved 735 projects. In 2017, it was 874 projects, 2018, 850.
▶ 0:54:39So around, you know, 800 and 825, give or so, give or take a few each year was what was getting done. Uh in 2020, the state of Florida assumed the ability to to issue those permits. So kind of took some of that workload off the core. Uh and by 2022, uh the state had done 1,615 projects. In 2023, 1,450 projects. So roughly double, not quite double, but quite a quite a bit more. Reduced the backlog that had been a big part of the frustration uh for constituents.
▶ 0:55:09But in February 2024, the federal government uh the federal courts uh issued an order that took away that state authority, put it back on the core. I know that wasn't anything that excited the Jacksonville office at the time, but it it was what it was. Since that time, and really within a matter of weeks after that decision, our phones started blowing up with the backlog starting to mount again. Um Now we've got big backlogs and we're trying to figure out how to plow through that.
▶ 0:55:36I have um an amendment in the um Well, before I get to that, um just I I just love to hear your thoughts. Why why is it that the state seems to be able to do this so much more efficiently than the core has been able to? Is it is it a question of money? Is it people? Is it the processes? Assuming the state's doing it right and the standards are are met at the same as the core would do, and that's that's an important assumption and if that's not valid then I I need to understand that. But but why the difference and the disparity? Why can the state do it so much more efficiently?
▶ 0:56:07Yes, sir. I I appreciate the question and I I won't I won't um pass judgment on whether the state was doing it properly or not. I they were they were told to stop in 2024. Um we were we were doing our part in in helping the state assume that responsibility for 404 And um and what we've done since then is we've actually established a regional permitting um agency within
▶ 0:56:37the division, not only my division, but other divisions in the Corps of Engineers, to help us expedite our permitting process, to put more resources against our permitting process, uh to in order to let that development, all this really important development to occur uh for the for the people of Florida and for the nation.
▶ 0:56:54Um And and we'll continue to do that what whatever the future uh holds for 404 permitting, if it if it does end up going back to to Florida and in in Jacksonville won't be doing that, we will once again in good faith be good partners in transferring that responsibility back to the state of Florida. But I will mention that that does cause turbulence and that does slow us down as we're doing those multiple transitions, but we'll do it as quickly and as efficiently as possible.
▶ 0:57:20Well, and I understand there is turbulence in that transition and that probably contributed to some of the the backlog increase initially when it was moved back over. If if the state were to take this assume this fully, what kind of savings would that provide for you? And then conversely, if the decision were not made and it stayed on the core's plate, do you need additional what additional funds we're talking about? Sir, it it it doesn't necessarily provide savings to us.
▶ 0:57:44We we have our regulatory program and our regulatory personnel that are are providing that service of doing those processing those uh permits. So um whether it's the Corps of Engineers doing it or it's the state of Florida, the funding that comes from the federal government will be directed just to a different um entity.
▶ 0:58:05Instead of my regulatory program, it would be the state's regulatory program and we would have to uh figure out how we best employ our regulators or let them go since the work is no longer there for the federal government. Okay. And along with the ranking member, I I too hope that we can get our our appropriations bills done for FY25. I've got an amendment that's in the interior appropriations bill for 25 that would restore that authority back to Florida.
▶ 0:58:30And I appreciate your comments that there'll be a smooth transition and if we do that, we we definitely want to be working with you all hand-in-hand to ensure a smooth turnover. But uh thank you very much, gentlemen, for being being here. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Franklin. I also echo your sentiments. I sure hope we can get fiscal 2025 done. So thank you.
▶ 0:58:49Uh at this time I'd like to recognize my friend from the great state of Mississippi, the distinguished chairman of the House Ethics Committee, uh who is with us on the subcommittee uh Mr. Guest. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, thank you for being with us today. Uh I think you can see from the questioning here that every district uh across our great nation has critical infrastructure needs.
▶ 0:59:18And each of us as members of Congress, uh we do our best to try to vet those infrastructure needs. Uh and then we advocate for the our district as we seek funding for uh those critical infrastructure projects. And many times you are going to be included as individuals who are going to be working on those projects.
▶ 0:59:40And we know and we've seen here today by some of the that have been given that often we find that those projects experience extensive delays. That those delays then calls the cost of the projects to go up extensively. And that it we experience as members of Congress, we experience frustration with that.
▶ 1:00:06Our constituents back home, our local local government entities who are vested and bought into these projects, they experience frustration. And so what we want to try to do and I think this is the the goal of this hearing is to figure out where those choke points are. What we can do to alleviate those those choke points and try to get these projects flowing much quicker. There have been examples here.
▶ 1:00:35Chairman Calvert talked about the fact that he has a problem has a project within his district that have been going on for for 36 years. I think I heard someone over here mention a project maybe going on for 40 years. You know, and I think back that you know, we were able to construct the Hoover Dam in 5 years. Actually 2 years early and under budget. We were able to send a man to the moon 8 years after John F. Kennedy challenged America to fulfill that mission.
▶ 1:01:03And so I know that we have the ability that we have the workforce. But I feel like that we have been constrained. And some of the constraints you have mentioned particularly on the larger projects General, you mentioned the fact that there only 25 firms nationally that can do projects of over 500 million. But there a lot of smaller projects where we would have additional contractors, additional firms who are are able to participate.
▶ 1:01:32And so first question is do you being the Army Corps, do you have the workforce that you need to get these projects approved, to get these projects moving forward? And then the second part and we can talk about these at the same time is the environmental compliance. And you talk about the environmental compliance in your testimony. You talk about the National Environmental Policy Act or NEPA, the Endangered Species Act or ESA, the Clean Water Act.
▶ 1:02:00And so what can be done to expedite these critical infrastructure projects to move through the environmental compliance. And Michael Cloud made a good point that there are environmental groups that are continuing to continue to sue the United States government with the sole goal in mind to shut the project down completely. They don't want the project to be built better, to have less harm to the environment. They just want to kill the whole damn thing.
▶ 1:02:27And the longer they can keep it in court and the longer that it drags out and the more costs that are associated, then they hope that we'll move on and do something else. And so the two questions that I have and I will I'll stop talking and give you the next minute and a half to answer those is one workforce within the Army Corps. Do you have the workforce that you need particularly to the smaller projects? And then what can be done on the environmental compliance Representative guess Thank you for that question.
▶ 1:02:57Regarding cost delays, we share your We absolutely do. Everyone at this table shares that frustration. We take this personally when we can't deliver on our commitments to you and to your On the internal workforce, we are susceptible to the same market trends that everybody else is. We're 3% unemployment and it's a hot market out there right now for structural engineers. And and we have to compete.
▶ 1:03:25We have the tools available that allow us to do that. And so that is our responsibility to successfully compete in the labor market or we have to tell you that I can't get to this project right now. We're not going to say no, we just have to say not now because I don't have the workforce on board. But we'll work hard to get it. What we also can do is to leverage the talents of the private sector.
▶ 1:03:48In the 18 seconds I have left sir, on terms of the environmental compliance this is one where it's it's it's almost counterintuitive, but it is go slow to go fast. Every time we've tried to not dot our T's, dot our T's, cross our T's and dot our I's carefully on the environmental side, we usually end up getting sued and then that sets the project back further. Thank you Mr. Chairman and I yield back. Thank you Mr. Chairman for those questions.
▶ 1:04:19At this time I would like to recognize Ms. Lee of Nevada. Gentlemen, Ms. Lee, like my good friend from California, Mr. uh is one of my co-chairs. I chair eight caucuses and caucuses and I say this cuz there are other people watching this all across America are ways that Republicans and Democrats can work together in a bipartisan fashion on a common issue. With Ms. Lee, it's cleaning up legacy waste sites. With Mr.
▶ 1:04:48Levin, it's on spent nuclear fuel. So it's a bit niche, but we all work So at this time I'd like to recognize Ms. Lee of Nevada for 5 minutes and thank her. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your leadership. I also want to thank all the witnesses for being here today and for all the critical work you do with respect to our water resources. And that's really what I want to focus on right now.
▶ 1:05:14Being from Nevada and like my colleagues on from other states where water resources are plentiful I was very disturbed to hear about the Army Corps's highly unusual release of over 2 billion gallons of water from Central California's Terminus and Shafer Dams last month in what appears to have been quite honestly just a simple, risky rushed, wasteful political stunt by the Trump administration
▶ 1:05:44to create this impression that somehow this water would assist the wildfire response in Southern After that happened, there was reporting that the water didn't help the farms or LA at all.
▶ 1:06:02And actually actually what's more concerning being from the West is the understanding of how important our reservoirs are to water management, especially as we look to a potential drought year again and what farmers are going to do come August when they rely on that water that was released prematurely from those dams.
▶ 1:06:23So my General Graham is not about this now covered incident in Southern California, but more about what are we doing going forward and how how are we going to handle when politics sometimes comes and trumps the science and the good sense in water management.
▶ 1:06:46I want to know is the Army Corps p- positioned and prepared to ensure that its stewardship of so much of America's water remains free from this type of harmful political interference. Representative Lee, thank you for that question and we absolutely remain committed to making sure that all of our actions are our lawful.
▶ 1:07:11We've got great working relationships with the irrigators down in the Tulare Lake of the Southern Central Valley and our commitment is to continue to work with the state and local irrigators to get the maximum benefit out of the water in those basins. And so the water that was released those days were flood storage water. It wasn't irrigation water. And so that was completely within core authorities.
▶ 1:07:39Now we have done and certainly the sense of Congress has been is to work as collaboratively as we possibly can with the local irrigators on the flood waters. And so we have a an R&D initiative called Forecast Informed Reservoir Operations where we'll take a little bit more increased risk with holding on to flood storage waters cuz we can see the atmospheric rivers as they're coming across the Pacific.
▶ 1:08:03And that allows us to then more slowly discharge those rivers to make sure that we're maximizing what the irrigators and the citizens can use. And ma'am, that's our commitment to you. So are you saying that this was flood control that this release it wasn't prompted by any call by the Trump administration? Ma'am, the water released was flood storage water. No, but was it a flood management release or was it at the direction of the Trump administration was my question.
▶ 1:08:32Ma'am, the the answer to the question is it was in compliance with the executive order that we were given. Okay. So that that allows me to drill a little bit deeper on another issue of political interference. So now if Congress specifically directs funding to an Army Corps project in fiscal year 25 or 26 under our appropriations legislation but the president or perhaps his OMB director then illegally orders the Corps
▶ 1:09:02to withhold such funding, how will the Corps respond? Ma'am, I When our policy officials come on board, right now that question would be best directed towards them. We we don't have any of our policy officials on board right now and that would normally be the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works is an appointed official and we don't have any of those folks on board now.
▶ 1:09:27So, you can't answer whether or not the Army Corps of Engineers will uh legally adhere with our Constitution and our appropriations process. You're not unable to answer that. We need someone else to do that. Ma'am, we'll always ensure that our actions are legal and in accord with the Constitution. The more nuanced policy questions I'd ask that once we get a policy official on board, they're they'll be best set to to address those adequately.
▶ 1:09:58Okay, thank you. I yield. Thank you. At this time, uh I'd like to recognize my friend Ms. Malloy of Utah. She's new to the subcommittee is a water um attorney by profession and I thank her. And uh so, it's a privilege to have you on the subcommittee and uh recognize you for 5 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:10:24Uh I'm going to follow up on some of the things that my colleagues over here talked about with the choke points and inefficiencies with getting permits issued, but I want to talk about it a little bit higher level. Um I introduced the FREE Act last Congress and this Congress and it's a an attempt to get agencies to look into using permit by rule so that we can issue permits more efficiently.
▶ 1:10:47In the Executive Order 14154 um issued on the day of inauguration orders the Secretary of Defense as well as the heads of other relevant agencies to undertake all available efforts to eliminate all delays within their respective permitting processes, including through, but not limited to, the use of general permitting and permit by rule.
▶ 1:11:09So, while I'm working on on the legislative side, um you're also being told by the administration to work on it and a couple of my colleagues during their time talked about preventing projects by making them more expensive. How there are groups that like to sue and delay projects and make them just more and more expensive until they may become prohibitively expensive and never happen, but even if we get projects built and permitted, they cost the taxpayers a lot more than they needed to to begin with.
▶ 1:11:37So, my question is, are you familiar with the Executive Order and if so, what are you doing to implement permit by rule and um eliminate some of these efficiencies that we've been talking about today? Representative Wasserman thank you for that question. We are indeed um familiar with the Executive Order up the all the executive orders that have come down regarding uh our regulatory program and we're working to unpack those right now.
▶ 1:12:07I don't have any direct answers for you right now, but we certainly acknowledge the challenge. Well, I I would encourage you to work with us to find ways to implement permit by rule. Um one of the things that that you all talked about is that the the private private sector could be utilized um in meeting some of these needs, but there's some inefficiency in doing that.
▶ 1:12:32In a permit by rule scenario, the private sector could be utilized in giving the Corps some of the information that you could then review to decide whether it's adequate for issuing a permit. I think that'd be a lot better for the taxpayers. We'd we'd have um good environmental decisions, good engineering decisions made in a lot less time. So, please work with us. Let us help you figure out how to implement that because I think it's a good direction for us to go in the future. Permits shouldn't take as long as they take.
▶ 1:13:00We can make good environmental decisions a lot faster and a lot cheaper than we're making them. We're in 100% agreement with you. Then, thank you for your time. Thank you for being here and Mr. Chairman, I yield I thank you, Ms. Malloy for those it has been brought to my attention, gentlemen, and uh by the way, I thank you for a very furtive first round of of questions. Some of my colleagues would like to engage in a second round and glad to acquiesce in that regard.
▶ 1:13:29Uh myself, I am satisfied, but I am going to defer now to the ranking member um I'm sorry. Can I ask Ms. Wasserman Schultz? Oh, well, we're back in the first round. Kind of like well, that's good um which is great. Um I hold those comments. Uh my my friend from Florida, Ms. Wasserman Schultz, welcome back and you're welcome to ask questions for 5 minutes. Mr.
▶ 1:13:55Chairman, thank you for the indulgence and my my questions will be directed at General Um General, this this subcommittee on a bipartisan basis has strongly supported projects across the country to accommodate large larger container ships that are coming to dominate the waterborne shipping industry and Port Everglades in my district is not only a cornerstone of South Florida's economy, but also one of the nation's most critical seaports facilitating billions in trade and supporting thousands of jobs in our region.
▶ 1:14:22As one of the top container ports in Florida and a key gateway for energy products, cruise operations, and international commerce, ensuring its infrastructure keeps pace with industry demands is really But the Army Corps's navigation improvements project has still not been implemented after three decades. The port is struggling to accommodate increasingly larger cargo vessels.
▶ 1:14:44The Port Everglades Pilot Association has done an exceptional job navigating these challenges, but their ability to safely transit larger ships is now further hindered hindered by high spots from shoaling identified in the Corps's latest hydrographic survey. While the Corps originally planned the next full channel maintenance event for fiscal year 2027, the Jacksonville district has indicated that they have the capability to at least start preparatory work if funding is available.
▶ 1:15:08So, given Port Everglades' vital role in our district's economy and national trade, would you support including funding in the Corps's FY25 work plan to expedite this maintenance we acknowledge the importance of the port and in the importance of regionally having all of our harbors at maximum capacity so that all the ships that are calling on, say, the Eastern Seaboard and in in my region are available at the maximum depth and those ships can come in at
▶ 1:15:38any time that any time that they need to that that we're not relying on tidal action to bring in the largest vessels and in all of those considerations and in um to Port Everglades, ma'am, I I am tracking that there is some typical uh shoaling that does happen in our in our harbors, but that uh the cycle of 5 to 6 years for doing the the O&M dredging, the operations and maintenance dredging for Port Everglades is on schedule and in should happen in 2027
▶ 1:16:08and 2028. Um and that's all I have. But what I'm asking you is there is room to expedite some of this and is that something that you could look at and be supportive of so that we can move Ma'am, if there's uh I and I and I apologize for not knowing the exact details of the condition of the of the port, exactly how much shoaling is happening, uh but if if there is some maintenance that needs to be done, we will, of course, do what we can to um address those concerns.
▶ 1:16:39Okay. But what I'm asking you to do is please go back and take a closer look at it and see if it is possible to expedite any portion of it. Understood, ma'am, and we is really critical for us. Yes, ma'am. Um I also, General Hibner, note that this hearing has been focused on project delays and rising costs at the Army Corps. I was here uh for uh the beginning of the meeting and heard your um the testimony, um but no project has experienced more of these delays than the deepening and widening project at Port Everglades.
▶ 1:17:09Can you provide us with an update and timeline for when we can expect to reach key milestones to move this project forward? And what steps can Congress take to ensure that projects like this one don't face unnecessary bureaucratic delays? Yes, ma'am. It has been more than 20 years. Ma'am, the um we submitted the biological assessment for the the expansion of the harbor back in May of '24.
▶ 1:17:32We appreciate you and your office's support in trying to uh come to an agreement with uh the National Marine Fisheries Service to um to be able to reconcile some of our differences in in what they see in our biological assessment and what we think is sufficient and what they believe is sufficient. Uh as to your question for the timeline, uh with this has gone long enough in our assessment. Uh in in and and we want to move this forward.
▶ 1:18:00We're going to do a final push next month with a meeting with the uh the regional leadership of both the Corps of Engineers and NMFS and with the with the goal of reconciling as much as we can. Uh if we are able to and we're successful, then we'll be able to uh have a biological opinion process started with NMFS in July of of '25 this year uh with the goal of having a record of decision in October of '26.
▶ 1:18:27If not, ma'am, uh we're we're done doing this at the regional level and we're going to uh bring this up to the higher level, the headquarters and the Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil Works. Thank you. I appreciate that and I'm, you know, continue to offer my assistance to be able to try to make sure we can bring this in for a landing to address the environmental concerns and the economic need to move this project forward. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I yield back. I want to thank Ms. Wasserman Schultz for her questions. I'll associate myself with my earlier remarks.
▶ 1:18:56We are now going to move to round two and I recognize uh uh Ms. Kaptur for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um uh General, I wanted to ask you in order to help the Corps meet your staffing challenges and some of the contracting challenges you've discussed how few companies there are in our country that can actually handle a contract with bonding over $500 million.
▶ 1:19:21Would you be open or have you ever done zooms with members of Congress and having them invite their business communities to hear this for the first Um and uh both in terms of staffing as well as um the the uh private contracting issue. Would you be open to that? Do you have staff to do that? Um does someone uh could someone answer that, please? Ma'am, absolutely would be open to that. Each of the regions, they do regional industry days.
▶ 1:19:49Let me go ask General Kwander to to speak about what his regional industry day does. And those are broad uh gatherings of industry and government officials to lay out what work might be coming up and what capacity they might have. It's it's a uh good meeting of the minds, Mark. Thank you, Ranking Member, for that question. Um in terms of industry days, so for us, we do it both at the region level and the district level. Um and as uh General Graham described, we bring in members of industry.
▶ 1:20:19Um Some are folks that are new to the core, so we explain how uh we explain our workload first and our portfolio, what we have coming up for the next year. And then we explain how we do business with the core. And so we we we push that information out there. Then we do breakout sessions. And those breakout sessions is both us talking about core projects and feedback from industry on how we can work better together. And the feedback from industry has been hugely valuable as we look at how we do acquisition in the future, ma'am. Thank you for that.
▶ 1:20:47Well, we I can tell you what, we'll be interested in our area. So if you're open to that, just let me know who we call. Um I want to move on to another question. I handed out a map this morning before uh the uh official meeting began, and it's actually a map of the a small map of the largest watershed in the entire Great Lakes, which our region shares with Canada. And the reason I'm showing this to you is because I think I've served longer than anybody in the room.
▶ 1:21:15And 40 years ago, we had sent a sample of the dredge material from the southern shores of Lake Erie, the largest dredging budget in the Great Lakes, the southern shore of Lake Erie. And uh we asked them for help because there's so much material, it would fill the Cleveland Browns Stadium every year 400 ft high. That's how much dredge material there is.
▶ 1:21:40And we have been seeking for years working with the core and others to try to find a way to reapply this material in a scientifically um reasonable manner. I would like to I will invite you to lunch if that's legal, I don't know. And we'll go over to Cleveland, and we're going to meet with the sewage um treatment division of the greater Cleveland area.
▶ 1:22:05They have managed to process raw sewage and turn it into a EPA applied land application. Uh that can be used in parks, it can be used in gardens, and so forth. And I keep asking myself, if the city of Cleveland, which has one of the finest I don't represent it anymore.
▶ 1:22:24Our state likes to gerrymander us around, but actually it's benefited me as a human being because now I understand the whole And um the um Cleveland area has found the magic key. And so I would like we never really got a good answer from Vicksburg. Uh the soil went down there, came back, and went back again. I know it's like that.
▶ 1:22:46I want to bring the Vicksburg people in to meet the folks in the uh Cleveland water wastewater authority and see what it is that is so unique about the dredge material material, which I think would be so much cleaner uh than what they're dealing with, and why we can't get a scientific answer out of the core. So I don't know if you'd be open to that, General, but I think we need to cross skills here and try to find a way so that we can land apply dredge material.
▶ 1:23:18Would anyone wish to respond to that Yes, ma'am. And I'll I'll start and I'll turn over to General Kwander. First off, the beneficial use of dredge material to view this clean material as an asset, we're 100% on board. Our goal is to achieve 70% beneficial reuse of of all of our dredged material.
▶ 1:23:36We will certainly bring the our engineering research and developers up to meet with the the Cleveland folks and General Kwander's team uh to see if we're missing something um that Cleveland has figured out. You know, and what's happened over the years, I hate to it's go 40 years of effort, so I got 10 seconds left, but uh can you imagine how difficult we've made this?
▶ 1:24:01We got in the big fight, Cleveland then had to stop the core, go to federal court to stop the core from open lake dumping, and we built all these containment facilities on the uh Great Lakes uh across the Great Lakes, certainly our region of the Great Lakes. But we haven't gotten that we've done experiments with corn growing right on the banks of the Maumee River. We've worked with the agriculture department on that. This seems to be a solvable This isn't nuclear waste. We got enough trouble with that.
▶ 1:24:28And in terms, if you tell me it's got to go in a hole, the region that I represent has giant giant uh stone quarries. And they've dug down hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of feet. There's room to store material there, more than the Cleveland Browns Stadium. My point is, I think we have a way of dealing with this, but we can't seem to get the scientists together to find an answer. And I really don't understand what's holding up because it's so much material. It's just so much.
▶ 1:24:58So and it's all washing from the land into the lake. And then we're pulling it out, and then we're going to And maybe it's not really sick. So if we can figure out what to do with sewage um and make a profit, which they are by selling it, uh the treated uh product, then we should do it. Ma'am, you have our commitment on that. Thank you.
▶ 1:25:21Thank you very, very Uh let's see, do I have another question I asked you about your staffing issues and about the zoom. So I think that'll be Thank you very, very much for participating today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of our members that have done such a great job. And to thank the Ranking Member for her questions. At this time, I'd like to recognize Mr. Levin for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:25:44Uh General Graham, I want to thank the core again for all the hard work being done on the LA fire Uh along those lines, I want to also ask about the release of water from Terminus and Shafer Dam. I just have four yes or no questions, then I have a couple open-ended questions to let you opine a bit on what you think happened. So first, the yes or no question. Uh is it true that the 2 billion gallons of water never reached LA?
▶ 1:26:11I don't know once what happens to the water once we release it from the dams. They evaporated in the dry lake bed in Lake Tulare from all public accounts. Is that not consistent with what you Sir, I I don't know what happened to the water once it released the dams. Okay. I'll ask you to follow up and find out. Uh it's also true that uh even if it had reached LA, the fires were already 100% contained.
▶ 1:26:35Uh is it correct, uh General, that the water was released and lost Well, I guess you said you didn't know, but you'll have to take my word for it. It was released and lost in a dry lake bed, even though that water was supposed to be saved for some irrigation. That's been widely uh commented on by scientists, farmers, and the rest.
▶ 1:26:53Is it correct in your view that the release of this water potentially worsened future water shortages in our state, particularly if we have a dry next few Uh Representative Levin, it's it was excess flood storage water, which we that a few times. I just want a yes or no answer. Do you think it could potentially have contributed to the water shortage in our state? I don't know. And can you find out for us? Can you take that back? We'll do our best.
▶ 1:27:22You guys have a lot of experts that we fund. I'd like to know. Uh how do you established coordination that's been in place with local authorities for decades, and just sound science? I don't believe I have an answer to that. So you don't have anything to say to the farmers who are worried about water shortages this summer? Or the local communities that felt they were out of the loop?
▶ 1:27:53Um I I I don't have anything else to respond. Nothing to say to them. What assurance can you give us that the core will follow flood safety rules, follow local coordination precedent, follow sound science if you have a future executive order that demands that you do the opposite of what's best practices by the core?
▶ 1:28:15Representative Levin, our commitment is to always follow um our statutory processes as defined by the water control manual. And do you think that happened here? We were absolutely within the statutory authority of the core as laid out in our water control manuals. Statutory authority is one thing, common sense is another.
▶ 1:28:37And the overwhelming public evidence suggests that despite all the local coordination that had gone on for decades, despite the fact that scientists were saying don't do this, you know, basically what happened is you had to uh slam on the brakes. You wanted to release several thousand in both the um Terminus and Shafer Dam, you wanted to release several times more than you actually did.
▶ 1:29:04And common sense prevailed to an extent, but you still released a huge order of magnitude more than common sense would have dictated. Is that Is that not accurate? Uh Representative, we we released water in accordance with our authorities. You're saying all the public reporting is wrong? Um, I'm saying we released water in accordance with our authorities.
▶ 1:29:24And in the future, if Congress uh gives you the the money to conduct sound science, and if it's the sense of Congress, and really more than the sense of Congress, the direction uh of this committee and of members of Congress that you have good local coordination, you do us in best interests of stakeholders like our farmers. Uh what assurance can you give us that's actually going to happen if in fact you get another executive order that says to do all the opposite?
▶ 1:29:49So, we'll always work to ensure that we're in compliance with all laws and with the executive orders we've been given. Now, what steps are you are you in are you taking right now to ensure better communication and coordination with local farmers and local stakeholders? Uh that coordination is built on relationships that are with daily coordination. Probably have been uh hampered a bit, don't you think? I'm sorry. I I wouldn't speculate.
▶ 1:30:20Well, I'm speculating that you have a lot of work to do to re- regain the trust and confidence in local farmers, local stakeholder stakeholders, scientists, and all of us that you're going to follow common sense and facts rather than uh a uh an executive order that contradicts those things. And with that, I'll yield back. At this point in time, I'd like to recognize Miss Wasserman Schultz of Florida for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Hebner, back to you.
▶ 1:30:50Um as you know, Everglades restoration is one of the most significant environmental restoration efforts in the world, and thanks to our strong state and federal and local partnerships, we've made historic progress in recent years. And the bipartisan infrastructure law provided a record $1.1 billion for restoration efforts. I was proud to join you um and many of your many of your colleagues in Florida to celebrate the groundbreaking of the embankment of the EAA Reservoir, and that's a game-changing project for water storage and ecosystem recovery.
▶ 1:31:20But the momentum though, we it while it's critical, we have to keep our foot on the gas and ensure that we have steady, reliable funding to complete these projects on time. Um so, from your perspective, how important it is it that we continue federal investment in Everglades restoration, and what would sustained funding mean for the long-term success of those efforts? Yes, ma'am. This is the largest ecosystem restoration program in the world, and it's crucially important to the nation.
▶ 1:31:47Um it's it's a a natural resource that is important to everyone, not just in Florida, and it's um it's it's vital that we continue to have the funding that we need to do the the important work that's happening. And we've had a lot of successes in recent years. Uh there's there's a lot of momentum behind the goals that we've been trying to reach for a couple decades now, and um in that so the the funding results in that continued success in the future.
▶ 1:32:16We're certainly hopeful that the the president's budget reflects the real need to be able to continue that momentum, and uh and that Congress will follow up as we have in the past. Um I also want to note a University of Florida study found that for every dollar spent on restoration of the Everglades generates at least $4 in economic benefits, and that supports industries like tourism, real estate, agriculture, while protecting our water supply in Florida and reducing costly storm damage.
▶ 1:32:43And as you noted, Everglades restoration This is America's Everglades, even though it is situated in Florida, it is the very significant uh ecosystem that is has incredible biodiversity. Mr. Chairman, I will reiterate our invitation uh again uh for you to join us in South Florida and bring the committee down with Ms. Kaptur to uh to tour the Everglades and the the project. It's really a sight to see.
▶ 1:33:08Um and so, with that in mind, can you speak, General, to the long-term cost savings and economic benefits of continued federal investment in Everglades restoration? Um and how do projects like the EAA Reservoir and stormwater treatment areas reduce long-term federal spending on things like disaster recovery, water treatment, and flood mitigation? And then I'll turn to the chairman for a a response to our Is Yes, ma'am. Uh it's it it is vital to the nation.
▶ 1:33:37Uh it's it's not only one of the most vast water resources in the United States, uh it provides the ability for us to sustain life in Southern Florida. And uh a lot of the the structures that we rely on to uh support the communities uh in in Southern Florida are relying on the proper movement of water through the Everglades.
▶ 1:34:01Um so, the continued maintenance, especially of some of these very aged structures that were built in the uh 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, it's it's all becoming uh more and more vital as the population growth in Florida continues to uh increase, and our ability to uh control the water becomes more challenging. So, uh the the continued uh investment can't be overstated, in my opinion. Thank you. And Mr.
▶ 1:34:29Chairman, I'm you know, it's not a tongue tongue-in-cheek suggestion. It is And we've had really nearly every chairman um along with the ranking member come down uh to take a look at the at the Everglades restoration project, and we would really love to have you come down so you can uh take a look at it. Well, I can unequivocally state that the Everglades have no stronger champion than than Ms. Wasserman Schultz. I thank you for the invite. And I will say this, the the Everglades are a national treasure.
▶ 1:34:58Um and I appreciate your advocacy there. I know you're joined actually by members on my side of the aisle who have the same affinity for that. So, we will certainly look at that. We have not really taken a water trip, to my knowledge, per se. Um and as Ms.
▶ 1:35:14Wasserman Schultz knows, I spend a lot of my time on the energy side, um but I will look forward to that and and and try to work that into our very busy schedule, and of course would welcome the ranking member to to go. She's a great hero for our great uh lakes. Um and I thank you all of them, not just Lake Erie. So, uh thank you for the invite. say, come on down. Come on come on down. Um thank you.
▶ 1:35:41Um and uh at this time, uh in in concluding this hearing, gentlemen, uh thank you. Again, I began with a very strong and fervent thank you for your service to our country, and that continues. Uh thank you for the way that each and every one of you have conducted yourself in this hearing. Uh it is not easy doing the job and the tasks that you've got.
▶ 1:36:03So, again, from the chairman, I sincerely thank each and every one of you uh for what you're doing, what you're trying to do, and wish you sincere success not only for yourselves, but for our great nation. And with that, I thank you, and we'll close this hearing.