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▶ 0:08:37the subcommittee on Europe will come to order the purpose of this hearing is to discuss the future trajectory of turkey between the west and the east as well as turkey's relationship with the United States Europe neighboring countries and adversaries such as Russia I would like to start with a moment of silence for the passing of Representative Sylvester Turner of Texas
▶ 0:09:08let's take a moment of silence thank you and I would also like to welcome when they arrive I'll announce now we have Representatives Lawler sheris McCormick ziny Isa and Schneider who will be joined us today they're all members of the full committee so there's no reason for to vote them on they'll be joining us I now
▶ 0:09:38recognize myself for an opening statement I welcome everyone to the first Europe subcommittee hearing it is an honor to chair this subcommittee that deals with the dynamic and potentially dangerous environment in a crucial region for US national interests I look forward to our work as a subcommittee today our objective is to examine turkey's roles in NATO and
▶ 0:10:08necessarily the Middle East even though this is the Europe subcommittee it will be necessary to look at turkey's track record in NATO and the Middle East in order to gain perspective on their role going forward in both regions as a NATO member historically turkey has operated as an ally to the as a member of the NATO Alli Alliance often aligning their foreign policy interest with the goals of NATO but in the last decade there have been some actions that don't line up with the NATO
▶ 0:10:38goals take for example the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and the barbaric October 7th attacks on Israel 2023 while turkey supports most of the agenda within the NATO alliance it did operate as a lone member NATO loan member refusing to condemn the actions of Nefarious players in the Middle East the world is changing quickly and turkey's geographic location places it at the epicenter of the most tumultuous regions
▶ 0:11:09as conflicts rage in Europe and the Middle East turkey has also assumed the position of power broker in the vacuum created by Syria's regime change and is vexed by their unresolved issues with the Kurds going uh going forward the world particularly the United States is watching closely as turkey decides whether or not to ease tensions with the Kurds America has relied on the Kurds partnership in the region in opposition to their success
▶ 0:11:39will be a major sticking point in turkey's relationship with the United States turkey is also unique in the in that geographically it straddles both Europe and Asia it is a prominent member of the mineral security partnership and could be a strategic partner for the west by operating as an alter alternative to Beijing recently turkey laid claim to one of the largest Rare Earth element reserves in the world with a rare earth 694 million
▶ 0:12:10ton deposit historically turkey was the anchor for NATO's Southeast Corner against the old Soviet Union but over the past decade turkey's commitment to anchoring that region has been begun to crack they have the second largest military in NATO only behind the United which makes turkey a key asset to the alliance but their geographic location also makes them vulnerable to Bad actors in the region I look forward
▶ 0:12:40to hearing testimony from our three experts today as they share their views on turkey's role in both Europe and the Middle East the chair now recognizes the ranking member the gentleman from Massachusetts Mr keing for any statement he may have thank you Mr chairman I I share your thoughts at this time with the Turner family um I'd like to thank you and I'd like to thank our Witnesses here today for years turkey has been balancing its relationship with Europe in the Middle
▶ 0:13:10East most recently following Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine turkey has been a vital has been vital in enabling the shipment of grain through the Black Sea and standing up for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial Integrity these are principle stances and turkey should be applauded for those decisions yet significant challenges remain with turkey including Turkish support for Hamas a brutal terrorist organization which conducted the heinous attack on October 7th uh this support must end at the
▶ 0:13:40same time turkey's acquisition of Russian S400 air defense systems as well as its delays in approving Finland and Sweden for NATO membership certainly complicated our bilateral relationship I also believe firmly that turkey must use its leverage with Azan and push for a durable long-term peace in the caucuses in our bilateral relationships with turkey we have a mixed history but when assessing the US turkey relationship it's important to acknowledge
▶ 0:14:11that it is a relationship both sides must contribute and work for the benefit of our relations and our safety worldwide I can't sit here this morning and ignore the deeply concerning events on the US side of this relationship which undermines our influence regionally but more importantly with our transatlantic and Global allies simply put we must take a look in the mirror and in our own relationship
▶ 0:14:41with turkey there are a variety of issues which warrant uh this View and and observation of US policy first on the important issue of NATO since 1949 NATO has been the Bedrock of the US turkey relationship as as I've said turkey's delay in admitting fin Sweden into NATO following Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine complicated this relationship yet I can't sit here without stating the obvious president Trump's goit alone strategy does not further
▶ 0:15:12our relationship with NATO does not help us work on important issues like counterterrorism in Turkey it does not help pressure allies many of whom have shed blood on our behalf uh following 9/11 uh of our appreciation of our commitment to Nato on the issue of Russia I'm deeply concerned with Turkish involvement and unwillingness to cut trade with the Kremlin and cease the export of important dual use items to Russia which
▶ 0:15:42Putin needs for his war effort yet we must look in the mirror president Trump has sided with Russia he has praised Putin's authoritarian leadership style and he's been unwilling to call Putin the aggressor and importantly on Ukraine turkey is a critical Ally and has helped facilitate the Black Sea grain initiative and enforce the montree convention uh in the black SE turkey can and should do even more but so must the States
▶ 0:16:13the Trump Administration has repeatedly shut the door on Ukraine rather than bolster Ukraine with Military Support to combat Russian aggression this Administration has frozen all us assistance to Ukraine halted intelligence assistant in Ukraine and paused offensive sa cyber operations against Russia here at home rather than make clear at the United Nations that Russia is an aggressor State and that Vladimir Putin a war criminal is to blame for this war this Administration
▶ 0:16:44sided with belus and North Korea in opposition rather than work with president zalinski to secure a lasting secure peace agreement the President and Vice President berated him in the Oval Office echoing Putin's talking points and lecturing zalinski about democracy while the president and the vice president make a mockery of that with that performance here at home at this time with so much on the line we must speak up for our values for our allies in Ukraine
▶ 0:17:15for the people in this country what they believe that appeasing dictators and attacking our allies who have died uh with so many Americans uh in our history dating back to this great year plus period since World War II doing that is simply wrong I'll close with this my uncle died on French soil during World War II as a member of Congress I've had the opportunity to meet with dozens of gold star families like my own who suffered loss at
▶ 0:17:45the hands of enemies today I can't help but think of the Ukrainian families hundreds of thousands of them who while looking to the United States for partnership are instead receiving an empty hand a close Fist and thankless public rebukes designed to the benefit of Vladimir Putin while our president abandons Ukraine many in Congress won't and I urge all of my colleagues to stay with Ukraine to stand up for we all know
▶ 0:18:15is right to stand up for Ukraine I look forward to our witness's testimony here today and I you back uh thank you ranking member other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record we are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic we have Dr Anna borak skia uh the Herold greenspoon senior fellow for the Washington Institute for near East policy we have Dr
▶ 0:18:45Jonathan shanzer the executive director of the foundation for defense of democracies and we have the honorable Celeste Wallander adjunct senior fellow Center for New American Security uh this committee recogniz izes the important of the issues before us and is grateful to have you here to speak with us today your full statements will be made part of the record and I I'll I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for members questions I now recognize
▶ 0:19:16Dr borcha ska uh for her opening statement welcome chairman self ranking member keing honorable members thank you for the opportunity to testify today with your permission I am submitting my written testimony and I'd like to summarize it I would like to focus on three key issues first turkey now has the potential to emerge as the primary Naval power
▶ 0:19:46in the Black Sea second the Russia turkey relationship is no longer decisively tilted in Russia's favor though Russia still retains some advantages third turkey has maintained a pragmatic Balancing Act between Ukraine Russia and NATO NATO after Russia's invasion of Ukraine all of this Mr chairman and honorable members means that the United States has an opportunity to use turkey's new position to advance
▶ 0:20:16um in the context of Russia's war on Ukraine especially as the US shifts strategic Investments towards the indopacific so here is how we can dive into this opportunity to advance America's interest check Russia's ability to return to the Eastern Mediterranean Russia will inevitably seek to return to the E Eastern Mediterranean it is a historic Russian aspiration the US should look for linkages between European and Middle East theaters turkey has outmaneuvered Russia in
▶ 0:20:46Syria the us could see how it can work constructively with turkey to block Russia's influence there to ensure Russia does not regain influence take advantage of turkey's growing Prime Primacy in the Black Sea restoration of security in the Black Sea region is a goal turkey and the West share over the long term the US should use the end of the war in Ukraine to limit Russia's presence if not to expel Russia altogether from the Black Sea it is in the US interest to remove
▶ 0:21:16the threat of Russia from NATO's underbelly in addition neutralizing Russia in the Black Sea could also help blunt Russia's influence in the Levant support turkey's normal ization with Armenia and a peace treaty between Armenia and aeran if Ukraine is to achieve a lasting Victory the West will need to act outside Ukraine by putting Russia under pressure in other theaters and specifically by depriving it of resources and influence in those
▶ 0:21:47regions the South Caucasus is one such region it is a vital strategic link between Europe and the Middle East loss of influence in the South caucuses will hurt Russia strategically because it will show Russia no longer has the same degree of control in its so-called near Broad promoting stability in this region is especially important now because Russia is gaining influence in Georgia work to reduce turkey's dependence on Russian
▶ 0:22:17gas approximately 15% of EU gas still comes from Russia and the revenue Russia generates helps it to fund its war effort in Ukraine Turk stream and the new Turkish blend project create an opportunity for Moscow to hide the origin of its gas and exert influence across Europe the us could sanction companies uh involved in infrastructure of Turk stream and Turkish blend at the same time the us could look for opportunities uh to work on
▶ 0:22:47Alternative Energy projects with turkey to further eliminate dependence Russia take advantage of turkey's role as a mediator turkey's mediation in the Black Sea grain deal was useful even if the deal ultimately collapsed to the extent that it is advantageous to us strategic interests the US should leverage enr's role as a mediator in the future Mr chairman honorable members how the war in Ukraine ends will have far-reaching implications for American
▶ 0:23:17credibility security and economy it will affect American Allies and partners across the world if Russia is Victorious if Russia succeeds it may lead to a bigger confrontation between Russia and NATO along with NATO Partners in this context the US has an interest in focusing your constructive pragmatic relationship with turkey thank you uh thank you Dr borf skaya I now recognize Dr shanzer for his opening statement
▶ 0:23:48chairman self ranking member kading and distinguished members of the sub commmittee on behalf of foundation for defense of democracies thank you for the opportunity to testify turkey has made headlines since the Bashar al-assad regime in Syria collapsed late last year this is because turkey is the power broker behind the new government led by the al-Qaeda affiliate known as hayat Tahir Alam or HTS turkey's backing of al-Qaeda and Syria is not new since the Syrian Civil War erupted in 2011
▶ 0:24:19turkey has supported several Jihadi groups fighting the Assad regime however Assad didn't fall for 14 years and that EXP explains how the Jihadi problem in Syria has grown worse anura promotes HTS as a moderate entity this is a farce the violent history of HTS must not be ignored the closest analog to this scenario a designated terror group taking over an entire country is the Taliban and we know how that worked out for
▶ 0:24:50Afghanistan turkey also supports his Bop last month Israeli foreign minister gonar revealed that turkey is aiding Iran to smuggle funds to the Lebanese terror group last year the US imposed sanctions on a network in turkey and Lebanon for funding the irgc ks force and hisbah other Turkish based entities have earned sanctions in recent years for similar reasons anur is a leading patron of Hamas for nearly two decades turkey has operated uh openly backed rather
▶ 0:25:20the terror group providing political cover and financial support in 2011 Palestinian sources alleged that erdogan e marked Mark $300 million to Hamas after the gilad Shalit prisoner swap that year scores of Hamas prisoners were deported to Turkey included Salah aori one of the group's most dangerous terrorist operatives in 2014 aori ordered the killing of three teens in the West Bank sparking a major war with Hamas that year the erdogan government cheered aurori
▶ 0:25:51when he claimed credit for that attack after Hamas slaughtered 12200 Israelis on October 7th erdogan doubled down on his Hamas support he welcomed Hamas political Chief Ismael Hanah in Istanbul just before he was killed by Israel in July 2024 the two discussed relocating hamas's political headquarters from Qatar to Turkey to this day Turkey is a hub for hamas's Global finances numerous us sanctions designations underscore this trend
▶ 0:26:21Tren g a Turkish construction conglomerate was designated by the US in 2022 for generating revenue for that company is still active today as are other firms that are funding Hamas in Turkey in December us legislators received a classified briefing about turkey and Hamas I hope that one theme emerged namely that erdogan has invested nearly 20 years legitimizing funding and empowering Hamas so why does erdogan
▶ 0:26:51support these Terror groups because he aspires to Regional if not global domination and he thinks that supporting these groups can help him the collapse of the Assad regime and the rise of HTS was eran's first major Middle East conquest and he wants more during the Arab Spring turkey backed islamist factions vying for power as aifi Middle East regimes collapsed one after the next Egyptian Libyan and other islamist groups all looked to anara for
▶ 0:27:21political and financial support stum still get Turkish backing hoping to replicate the success ESS of HTS eran's Hamas rhetoric is a very clear attempt to position himself as a leader in the Muslim World his failed call for an Islamic war against Israel led to nothing but it was a clear attempt to Rally the Muslim world around the Turkish flag I'm also concerned about turkey's blue Homeland policy of aggression tensions
▶ 0:27:52are currently rising in the Eastern Med with Turkish vessels challenging Greek and cypriate vessels even in their own exclusive economic zones the US can no longer afford to ignore Turkish aggression a policy shift is needed and I offer these recommendations the US should maintain its modest military presence in Syria to counter Turkish aggression the US should block Turkish attempts to deploy military forces or contractors anywhere in the Middle East the US should Expose
▶ 0:28:22and punish Ana's policy of allowing Jihadi Fighters and Terror financiers to use turkey as it Transit and Logistics Hub the US should preserve uh rather should pressure anura to sever all ties with Hamas including shutting down its offices extraditing known operatives and revoking travel documents failure to do so should result in tough sanctions the US should closely monitor Turkish involvement in weapons smuggling with a focus on Syria's borders with Jordan and Lebanon and finally Congress
▶ 0:28:52should limit any major arm sale to Turkey until it stops supporting terrorism and D stabilizing NATO I offer additional recommendations and my written testimony I hope this subcommittee considers all of them on behalf of FDD thank you for the opportunity to testify uh thank you Dr shanzer I now recognize Dr Wallander for her opening statement thank you uh chairman self ranking member keing distinguished members of this committee thank you for
▶ 0:29:22this opportunity to speak with you today on one of the most consequential bilateral geopolitical relationships that the United States enjoys with a key Ally the Republic of Turkey Tura is a strong Ally across key Global Security priorities of the United States however too often turkey is also at odds with US policies and priorities and at other times the US and turas share strong common interests but have differing approaches to resolving problems
▶ 0:29:53that threaten American interests I lay this out as the Good The Bad and The complicated the good for over 70 years Tura has been a strong Frontline member of the NATO alliance spanning the Bosphorus and holding onethird of the Black Sea Coast turkey has been key to Credible defense and deterrence against Soviet and now Russian threat in Europe turkey's location affords NATO allies key overflight
▶ 0:30:23access for defense and surveillance operations across South east Europe during the Cold War turkey played this vital Alliance role along with Greece the two forward locations for nato in southeast Europe today they are joined by Bulgaria Romania and the Western Balkan allies to enable NATO air sea and ground defenses that Force Russian military planners to contemplate defense from the Arctic to the Caucasus with turkey
▶ 0:30:53as a NATO Ally the Kremlin cannot afford to focus an attack on simply Ground Forces on one access in Central Europe the US military is better able to fulfill its missions for European and Global Security because of our alliance with tra the US operates military bases in ineri and ismir along with other NATO allies these bases support air ground and sea components of Allied Forces and support a network of sensors
▶ 0:31:24that provide warning and surveillance capacity to the alliance deep in Europe's Eastern areas hosting US military forces at these bases has meant that turkey has enabled and supported us operations and NATO deterrents for decades turkey has a strong industrial base including production of some of the most advanced and Innovative capabilities crucial to Modern Warfare notably unmanned aerial Vehicles uavs military ships and electronic
▶ 0:31:54warfare systems turkey has also invested in American built Advanced weapons to that Advance NATO's strength and interoperability notably its Fleet of F-16 Fighters This Advanced capability is one of the Forgotten stories in Ukraine's surprise success in the early months of Russia's invasion in 2022 one of the signature headline capabilities the ukrainians used for surveillance and attack that caught the Russian army by surprise was Turkish Aerospace Industries
▶ 0:32:25produced by rockar uavs in a war that changed our understanding of how conventional conflict can and must be fought that has and that has led to the massive growth in production of uavs for military use the leading example was Turkey was LE was turkey's use and development of uavs in in other places globally turkey has contributed where American partners are supported by US military forces however
▶ 0:32:55there is no question that at times turkey has also taken actions that are contrary to American National Security interests we've already heard mention of tur's arming of aeran that led the president alev to believe that he could achieve his objectives against Armenia and take territory um in a way that led to the displacement um and Refugee status of tens of thousands of uh nagoro kabak Armenians turkey
▶ 0:33:25has also acted against us interests in NATO and notably with delaying Finland and Sweden's memberships uh and therefore sending a message to Putin of disunity within NATO and Tura did acquire the S400 Russian system putting at risk the entire European NATO F35 program by operating and deploying that system the complicated issue I want to highlight is tur's concerns and uh track record
▶ 0:33:56of striking at pkk Affiliated groups in Northern Syria and in Iraq for years turkey had did this without coordination with the United States and often put at risk US military forces exercising the counter Isis missions uh that the US government has designated with the change in Syrian leadership and the evolution of uh the T government of tur's relationship with the leadership of the pkk
▶ 0:34:26within Tura there is an opportunity to build upon better communication alignment in counterterrorism operations namely counter Isis operations in Syria and Iraq and perhaps begin to untangle this unfortunate period in US turkey relations thank you uh thank you and I now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning uh Dr shanzer I'll start with you uh turkey has the second largest military uh in NATO
▶ 0:34:56after the UN United States and uh we are hearing and I'm hearing from Individual delegations that Europe is starting to expand their defense capabilities as they expand their capabilities what does that mean for turkey and their participation in NATO and specifically I'd like ask you to address uh Greece and the S400 sure uh chairman s thank you for the question first I think there does need to be an assessment I think it could be
▶ 0:35:26an interesting report perhaps produced by the Congressional research Ser uh service or some other um but to question this assertion that turkey's Army is invaluable to Nato its size does not mean that it is effective um or that it's updated or that its Army is capable of uh tangling with Russia or any other country for that matter so I do think an assessment could be necessary I think there is a question though among the European powers right now
▶ 0:35:57about turkey role within NATO and within Europe specifically I think when we look at the number of uh clashes that have or near clashes that have taken place in the Eastern Med I'm concerned turkey has been very aggressive of late in challenging the Greeks and the cypriots in their own uh exclusive economic zones they have been engaged in illegal drilling but they have also tried to assert I mentioned in my uh in my spoken
▶ 0:36:27marks uh this blue Homeland policy of denying uh countries in the region to be able to go into international waters this cannot continue if the goal is to preserve even a monom of stability within NATO and I think it's crucial that we address this now um I would say that uh having the US Patrol with Greece may be actually useful having the Israelis Patrol with Greece in the Eastern Med may be useful but turkey needs to understand that needs
▶ 0:36:57to share these waterways this is going to be crucial moving forward uh thank you either of our other Witnesses I would highlight the the value of um Turkish uh armed forces in the area of Special Operations forces the uh turkey has contributed to for example the training of uh Somali uh Special Operations forces uh alongside American American
▶ 0:37:28trained and equipped Somali uh the daab Brigade which is aimed at preventing the um success of al-shabab in Somalia and holding it at Bay al-shabab is identified by American intelligence as the only terrorist organization in Africa with the capability and the intent to strike uh through Global operations including against the US Homeland so there are areas of strength that we have worked the United States has worked in cooperation with with the Turkish Armed
▶ 0:37:58Forces I would highlight that one in particular uh I agree with my colleagues and want to add only one brief comment uh turkey's support for Ukraine turkey's military support for Ukraine um as Mr chairman you've highlighted in your remarks has been useful and in that regard um I well I I agree with with everything my colleague said uh but that there has to be a more of nuanced approach to turkey's to our understanding of Turkish
▶ 0:38:30military uh thank you for that I want to ask about this Rare Earth element find can any of the three of you comment on that because one of the critical areas that we need to divorce ourselves from China is rare earth critical minerals because they're mined lots of places but China controls 92% of the processed uh minerals I mean it is certainly an opportunity to um partner with chy
▶ 0:39:01uh in that uh commercial Endeavor the Trump Administration has made clear uh that it is seeking those kinds of Partnerships and I you know would simply observe watching Chinese operations throughout Africa in the Middle East if the United States is not active and offering a value proposition to countries chines ability to move in with what look like very uh lucrative commercial opportunities usually create facts on the ground that are difficult to walk
▶ 0:39:33back yeah I I would uh I would agree uh the fact of the matter is we we are focused on great power competition as the trajectory of our foreign policy and as such uh focus on minerals is a part of this debate therefore if we don't have a seat at the table somebody else will fill in that space it's better that we find a way to do it rather than our adversaries uh thank you than you very much and now recognize the ranking member for five
▶ 0:40:05minutes time if I keep going with this but see if it resets my time if I could Mr chairman thank you uh there many here in Congress that uh don't think Ukraine is important to us back here at home uh that what happens over there is their business business and we should worry about uh our own priorities here and I'm looking at as we discussed turkey I mentioned before
▶ 0:40:35uh their involvement in keeping navigation and the Black Sea free uh I sponsored uh the Black Sea Security Act which was incorporated in in the ndaa uh last year uh to underscore this importance now can you tell us how important Dr Wallander it is to have the access through Odessa and through Ukraine uh and make sure that doesn't fall in the hands of Russia and what what that would mean for the uh our security
▶ 0:41:06and what would it mean for uh economic impact worldwide and at home if that should fall to Russia thank you um sir the there's a lot of focus the last three years on security assistance and how vital the ability for Ukraine to fight on the battlefield was to its survival but its economic milit Ary success uh is both not enough but also not possible without um the Ukrainian economy and turkey's
▶ 0:41:36decision to invoke the montro convention in the 1936 montro convention shut off the Russian Navy from being able to reinforce the Black Sea Fleet and as ukrainians were skilled in using uh various coastal defense capabilities and un unmanned surface vehicles and sinking Russian ships Russia was not not able to repair or resupply the the Russian Black Sea Fleet to the point where the Russian Black Sea Fleet had to retreat from sevastopol in Crimea
▶ 0:42:06to noasis and it's stuck back uh in the Eastern Black Sea this has uh affected UK Russia's ability to launch attacks in the Odessa area it has not eliminated but it constrained Russia's ability to use surface ships to attack Ukrainian cities um and it is something that Russia has persistently throughout the conflict pressed Tura to change to allow Russian warships to enter the Black Sea and turkey has prevented that
▶ 0:42:37so Ukraine's ability to send grain to send manufactured goods out to import the components for its own defense industry has vitally depended on the openness the commercial openness of the western Black Sea uh and that will be a major element of any ceasefire or peace negotiation going forward as well and what would be your concerns if that fell into Russia's hands or what what would China how would China View that change control of the Black
▶ 0:43:07Sea would give uh Russia control of Eastern Europe it would give control of not just the sea but airflight overflight permissions that the United States uses for example to access the Middle East um it would give uh Russia the ability to continue its strangle hold on Georgia to influence aeran in support aeran in negotiations for a peace settlement in Armenia I mean the the ab the Black Sea as a Russian
▶ 0:43:37Lake would be a significant strike against European security and American global access uh working with our NATO partners and allies in the region yeah and following that along the importance of that and the aftermath of what happened last week in the Oval Office uh disrupting our transatlantic alliances uh there was a meeting in EUR of European leaders uh the core of that I thought was to have a peace agreement that made sure there was a security component to that we can't trust Putin's
▶ 0:44:08word and there has to be a back stop to make sure uh that that's enforced can you tell us the importance of any agreement having that security agreement that if Putin uh does what he always does lies and goes back on his word that there would be some kind of security built into any agreement so that he couldn't Advance himself with another aggressive attack illegal immoral attack on Ukraine well if you look at the track record of Russian failure to implement
▶ 0:44:39um peace agreement ceasefire agreements in Georgia Russia has never lived up to the commitments that uh were made in 2008 Russia has never lived up to the commitments that it made to withdraw forces from transnistria in Moldova and Russia never implemented the successive Minsk agreements in 2014 and 2015 the first step in those agreements was a ceasefire Russia never implemented it and the International Community only put in a uh we a a lightly armed
▶ 0:45:09monitoring Mission So based on the track record you would need a strong agreement you would need a strong armed presence not merely a peacekeeping presence but a peace enforcement presence and that would mean a substantial ground force uh with substantial air uh support as well thank you I think that's one of the most important things uh coming out of any agreement I yield back and now recognize the gentleman from Tennessee Mr
▶ 0:45:39Green chairman uh self and ranking member King thank you for convening this hearing on the critical role turkey plays in geopolitics today turkey's strategic location and strong military give it the unique ability to put NATO's security mandate into action yet I do have some concerns about turkey's willingness to do so as a flight surgeon during the war on terror I served on the front lines balancing dual roles as a soldier and a Healer I treated uh us NATO
▶ 0:46:09soldiers combat wounds in the middle of firefights learning firsthand that strength against our enemies and building trust with our allies are inseparable duties today we're here to discuss both standing strong and Building Bridges from the war in Gaza to Russia's invasion of tur of Ukraine turkey plays an integral role in the current geopolitical landscape but these actions of late are as I said very concerning from seeking membership with bricks countries who clearly have
▶ 0:46:39taken a position to destabilize the United States dollar to attempting to join the Shanghai cooperation organization I do see some red flags this explicit flirtation with us adversaries undermines NATO's cohesion the purchase of the Russian S400 missile systems dragging its feet on Sweden and finland's admission to Nato and continuing to fund Terror groups doesn't
▶ 0:47:09uh just doesn't go with what the goals doesn't align with the goals of the United States or NATO turkey's conflicting loyalties are exemplified by the role it played in Russia's war on Ukraine turkey closed the bosis and the Dells uh to Russia and supplied drones to ke but it also helped Russia evade sanctions in s in Syria turkey's antagonism against our Allied kurdish-led Syrian Democratic forces jeopardizes the mission to defeat Isis this could lead to an Isis Resurgence we all know what that would
▶ 0:47:40be my hope for turkey is that it will give up its support for Hamas renew strong economic relationships with Israel and together that these two countries can Revitalize the Middle East but this isn't going to happen if Turkey chooses to support terrorist now I will say that there turkey has a unique position in the world it's history with Russia its ottoman Heritage and its relationship with the West U
▶ 0:48:10sort of like threading a needle if you will and there seems to be in foreign policy or at least my study of it in foreign affairs and history the approach I like to call it to put a foot in each bucket approach or a foot in every bucket approach and I get for example a nation like India that desires to be a third or fourth pole in the multi-polar system of the world might do things that are both pro-american and Pro or aligned with Russia or China at various points in time I get that however we don't have a
▶ 0:48:41treaty like NATO with India and that leaves us to ask hard questions and I think you know in being as Fair as I possibly can with that history that geopolitical position or that geop that location the geo geographic location of the country and the challenges around it
▶ 0:49:11I just want to ask uh first Dr shener uh what external pressure would the United States need to put on turkey for it to properly distance itself from Hamas coners green thank you for the question look I I don't know what the exact answer is but I do know that turkey does respond to sanctions pressure we saw this with uh during the first Trump Administration Pastor Brunson had been taken hostage uh by the Turkish
▶ 0:49:42government uh the Trump Administration put significant sanctions on erdogan's Inner Circle really began to Target his closest allies in government and the threats began to ratchet up and then he released pastor Brunson I believe that the threat of sanctions on Turkey uh could economic pressure has a place to start um but I think we need to consider other ways that we can put pressure on them as well political diplomatic
▶ 0:50:12um but giving them The Leverage that they have right now in NATO doesn't help and of course there's no NE mechanism for releasing them from NATO let me ask one other quick question um because I'm about to run out of time you can you guys can respond in writing can Eran run for re-election is he going to run for re-election if he can and if he if he doesn't run for re-election is it the Istanbul mayor I mean who's who's the AA parent in Turkey I'd love to get that in writing because I'm now out of time
▶ 0:50:42thank you and now recognize the gentle lady from Florida Miss sheris McCormack thank you thank you so much Mr chairman ranking member um although turkey and Israel restored full diplomatic ties in 2022 relations have dramatically worsened since hamas's October 7th attack and Israel's military operation in Gaza Edan has taken a very harsh stance against Israel and in May of 2024 turkey stopped all trade with Israel until a permanent ceasefire
▶ 0:51:12is achieved in Gaza and humanitarian Aid is allowed without interruption under Edon turkey has provided consistent political support to Hamas and has periodically hosted hamas's political officials what is the nature of turkey's relationship with Hamas and how is it likely to affect turkey's ability to one imp improve its relationship with Israel two play a role in mediating Israel Palestine conflict and three assist with postconflict recovery and reconstruction
▶ 0:51:45Gaza I'll take it that's for me thank you for the question yes um look the uh the relationship between uh turkey and Hamas goes back to at least 2006 that was the first time we saw a major delegation hosted by erdogan uh we saw erdogan get into an open fight with Shimon Paris the president of Israel Nobel Prize laurate um accusing him essentially of war crimes um then we began to see the money flowing from Turkey we began to see more operatives finding
▶ 0:52:15a home in Turkey businesses created in Turkey operatives planning and executing attx out of turkey we just put it this way turkey is to the letter of the law a state SP sponsor of terrorism as it relates to Hamas they are it unquestionably the largest jurisdiction right now for Hamas operatives and for Hamas Finance in the world that is obviously deeply troubling when we think about the fact that this is a NATO Ally and and a country that we rely on for modum of
▶ 0:52:45stability in the Middle East so as of right now especially after October 7th I see no way forward between turkey and Israel if turkey's policies continue along these lines they have not stood down they have not dialed back on their Hamas support if anything erdogan appears to be more committed to this terror group right now and I think this is why this hearing in particular strikes me as so crucial at this moment and what steps do you think the US should take to addressing the risk
▶ 0:53:15of turkey's continued support to Hamas oh I think we need to make very clear demands right now on Hamas I mean number one I think we should be sanctioning turkey for any evidence we have we know there are a number of companies right now that are throwing off cash for Hamas and sending it to the Gaza Strip there are Charities that are doing the same I think they need to be designated by the treasury Department we need to be demanding the extradition of Hamas operatives that are based in Turkey um we should be asking the Turks to revoke travel
▶ 0:53:45documents that have been issued formally by the Turkish government to Hamas operatives there are many steps that we can take that we have yet to take I cannot tell you exactly why we haven't taken them and I would actually argue that it is a bipartisan problem both Democrats and Republicans have failed to address this I think maybe for fear of upsetting the alliance that we have with the Turks knowing that they're NATO allies and that they have vital roles to play in other areas but I think they have fallen down on the job as American
▶ 0:54:16Allies if they are so openly willingly um supporting a violent group Hamas as the Syrian people emerged for decades under a Assad's brutal dictatorship I'm concerned about um Turkish actions against Syria's Kurds community and support for full support a fully inclusive Syria Syria representatives of Representative of all its people I'm also equally concerned about the potential rise of Isis in Syria and the dangerous consequences of freezing forward Aid to that region
▶ 0:54:46this is not just a matter of foreign policy this is a national security issue and the consequences will be fear here will be felt right here at home this evil terrorist group committed heinous terrorist attacks including the Pulse Nightclub shooting in Orlando that killed 49 people let me be clear foreign aid is not a handout it is an investment in our national security that Aid helped prevent Isis from regaining strength and keeps local forces trained and equipped and stabilizes communities so terrorism does
▶ 0:55:16not take root again but by cutting it off we are giving Isis exactly what it wants a power vacuum a weakened opposition and a chance to rebuild and and who will pay for this mistake it will be the American people unfortunately humanitarian needs in Syria are at an all-time high in 2024 16.7 million people were estimated to require assistance the largest number since the beginning of the Civil War in 2011 we're either going to feed them now or we're going to
▶ 0:55:46end up fighting them later miss wer does Turkish do Turkish officials seek to weaken us back Kurdish forces such as the SDF which are a strong a terrorist partner to the United States and its European allies uh thank you congresswoman uh the Turkish government uh has uh stated or uh when I served in government until January stated uh that it sees an opportunity to now distinguish uh pkk uh Affiliated
▶ 0:56:16groups in Northern Syria and in Northern Iraq uh expect them to be disarmed and to cease their operations but but not to act against um Syrian Kurdish groups that are not affiliated with wkk now is the time to test that commitment and see whether uh they can live up to it because it would be a big it would be significant progress but their actions need to meet their words thank you I now recognize the gentle lady from California Miss Kim thank you chairman
▶ 0:56:47self and ranking member kiding for holding today's hearing and I want to thank you all for joining us today uh turkey has expressed its desire to have a close relations with both the west and the East and it is first a NATO member that has openly asked to join bricks which is led by our adversaries Russia and China so I want to ask you what are the I mean I'm going to direct this question to any one of you what are the top
▶ 0:57:17drivers for turkey's pursuit of bricks membership or partner uh country status uh briefly thank you congresswoman so uh I think that uh what turkey often points to I'm not advocating this is the limitations of their integration in uh e the European Union and the economic opportunities I I don't necessarily think that that is a good argument for as you point out seeking deeper
▶ 0:57:47economic relations with uh America's two top strategic competitors Russia and China because the relationships of economic uh trade with Europe don't bring with them dependence uh and influence in a way that trade investment uh and economic entanglement with China and Russia do and the United States should be very clear with turkey that our own economic relations our own integration in different Industries would be limited turkey's uh
▶ 0:58:17membership in bricks or like Shanghai cooperation organization likely I I don't know that uh I think that Russia in particular would see that as a prize because of the influence I think that it would extend China's influence in the European uh terrain given that Europe itself is now quite resistant to Chinese influence in the economic sphere uh so I do think it is a risk and I think you put your finger on something
▶ 0:58:48important I think you wanted to add to that yeah I I'd love to add to this that I I believe that turkey's diance and both sides of this equation reflects the president Reb T erdogan's um deep discomfort with American values with Western values I don't think that he feels like he belongs there this is a man who identifies very openly as an islamist this is a man who does not put
▶ 0:59:18a lot of faith in democracy and you can see he's already testing the limits of the Democracy in Turkey he's putting strain on the Judiciary putting strain on the uh uh on on the media um I would actually argue that he's been eviscerating turkey's democracy it wasn't exactly strong to begin with but it continues to weaken this is driving turkey into the hands of some of these other organizations populated by less liberal countries you can see the alliances or the semi alliances
▶ 0:59:49that turkey has maintain with the likes of Iran over the years or engaging in illicit Financial activity with the the this is a man who does not see himself uh squarely fitting within NATO and that's why we are watching him stray into these other organizations let me address this uh I saw the uh pure Research Center polling from 2024 where it says a fewer than 20% of Turks have a favorable view of the United States while their favorable uh rating of China
▶ 1:00:19is 30% and their rating for Russia is 26% so why do you think this is the case and how can the US gain greater favorability among the Turks look at a lot of what we see right now is is actually the result of the manipulation of the Turkish media which is fully controlled or almost fully controlled by reab T erdogan if you want to see some of the um uh public sentiment begin to shift maybe allow for more liberal media once upon a time there was a
▶ 1:00:49lot more of it now there's not I would say that is a major point of concern but as for exactly why Turks the way they do I think you'd have to ask the Turks and then they have uh more than 40% of Turks they have a favorable view of NATO and the European Union why is that why do you think that's the case I think the I wish I were higher um I think the favorable view is the um is that in between
▶ 1:01:20um Turks see themselves also as European and see the NATO alliance as uh contributing to Turkish security although they have concerns about terrorism but also the aspiration to play a role as a leading European uh country so I think that that is rooted in the in the country but it is uh also balanced by I I agree with Jonathan by the views of having larger Global aspirations as well I
▶ 1:01:50wish I can engage more with you but my time's up so I'll yeld back thank you I now recognize the gentle lady from Texas Miss Johnson well thank you so much Mr chairman and riking member um it's an honor to be on this subcommittee um I have been listening to your testimony with great interest it's been fascinating to me um the US turkey relationship is complex and
▶ 1:02:20sometimes challenging as you have well educated us here today turkey has continued to engage with Hamas which has fueled a heartbreaking conflict in the Middle East that many of my constituents keenly feel but even turkey consistently rejects Russia's claim over Ukraine and join the Free World in voting for the United Nations resolution in opposite of the US vote where we unfortunately and tragically cast our vote to align with Russia and North
▶ 1:02:51Korea uh two dictatorships that represent the opposite of our Valu and voting against our allies and voting against peace in the region so my question is does this sort of give permission this signal by the United States to align with Russia and China and nor North Korea does that give permission for turkey to do the
▶ 1:03:22same um yeah I think um I I I think I I think you're making a very important very important Point here and I think it points to the larger uh geostrategic dilemmas that were facing as part of this discussion because as we've all discussed here today turkey is a very problematic Ally um and yet um on the one hand uh it supports Hamas uh it uh its actions oftentimes go against our values um and yet when we think about the bigger geopolitical
▶ 1:03:52picture as you brought up Ukraine uh right now um we have to uh think about how do we how do we navigate what's the way forward how do we how do we go forward from here um and I think uh well first if I may go back to the earlier part of our discussion with with turkey uh representative Kim's comment the problem is Turkey's actions do not uh turkey does not align with our values and so what we what we need to when we think about the way forward in our relationship
▶ 1:04:22with turkey is looking uh towards interests right rather than values um and and that's a ve that's a very u a very different way of looking at this issue because we tend to when we think about the NATO alliance uh we certainly think of a values-based Alliance you know many of you all testified that um well to your I love your analysis sort of The Good The Bad and The complicated um on the one hand we really much need turkey we need their policing in the Black Sea we need the openness that
▶ 1:04:52that provides to the region we need so much from them but they're acting very bad you know like a a very bad child and you know what if you had to say which interest is more important to the United States if you have to pick a policy path is it more important to re in their bad behavior or is it more important to keep them wanting to be on our side so a a
▶ 1:05:22global a global uh superpower the United States most powerful country in the world doesn't have to choose we have influence we can work with Not Just Turkey but other countries with who we can solve problems in advance American interests but we can also hold them to account and for example I I fully support and believe it was a constructive move for congress uh to pass to include turkey under the kataa sanctions precisely because by buying the S400 system
▶ 1:05:53um turkey was putting us Pilots and NATO Pilots at risk right so we need to step up our game I think it seems like the diplomacy um in this country needs to be elevated to a high level and to make sure that we reign in their bad behavior it's it's what's really sounding like their interaction with Hamas their interactions with terrorist groups their their support their running to uh Russia and China are all such things that should be very very concerning to the United States it needs to
▶ 1:06:23be a top prus of our interactions with with them is that fair well I would I would I think that's fair and I would add to that turkey is certainly not choosing uh turkey is making it very clear in its behavior that they don't want to choose uh all of its actions after Russia's invasion of Ukraine show that they've they on the one hand were certainly supportive of Ukrainian territorial Integrity but they also continued to do business with Russia as we discussed turkey is talking about joining
▶ 1:06:53the bricks um so if Turkey is not willing to choose we as a superpower certainly don't have to choose and we can balance we can and in fact it is the prerogative of a superpower to be able to focus on more than one priority at a time I'll only add one thing here we're entering we're entering into an era of great power competition we hear this all the time we're going to have to deal with China we're going to have to deal with Russia we've got great challenges on the horizon we need reliable allies
▶ 1:07:24period we need to make demands of our allies and by the way turkeyy is not alone you've got countries like Qatar that are supporting Hamas you've got countries like Oman that are supporting the houthis none of this should be allowed to continue under an alliance structure that demands discipline that's what I think we need to start to see out of our diplomats out of our state department out of our White House I think this has gone on for too long the gentle ladies thank you all so very much thank you uh now recognize the gentleman from South Carolina Mr Wilson
▶ 1:07:54thank you very much Mr chairman and indeed uh secretary Wallander I want to thank you for your analysis about the Black Sea how important it is uh and and I'm really grateful that ranking member kading uh raising that issue up because we've already seen uh the efforts by the collaboration between War C Putin the Chinese Communist Party the regime and Teran and uh and it was October 26 uh that the war Putin rigged the presidential elections
▶ 1:08:25the Republic of Georgia and the consequence of that is that now uh there's an effort by the Chinese Communist party to scheme and build a port on the Black Sea and so the collaboration U between the aess of evil is clearer every day and we should be supporting uh indeed as Europe is uh the legitimate president salomi zor of the Republic of Georgia and called for new and fair and free elections uh with that in
▶ 1:08:55mind America and turkey have been uh NATO allies while beginning even in 1952 with Turkish soldiers fighting alongside American so with Americans in the Korean War and in every conflict since including uh I've had my son serve uh with turkey's troops uh in Iraq and Afghanistan there's always been ups and downs in our relationship but I believe that ultimately what we
▶ 1:09:25have is mutual benefit should be a basis of our partnership for uh ultimate uh good results of for both of our countries and for freedom and democracy additionally turkey has been crucial for the victory in the uh in the Cold War defeating communism liberating countries of Central and Eastern Europe of Central Asia of the Caucasus uh we have worked together and we need to focus on that and indeed we have been Partners in the global war on terrorism
▶ 1:09:56and the Turkish American Community uh for over 130 years has been very uh assimilated into American society as Business Leaders and so appreciated and I was grateful to actually host the Turkish Ambassador Sadat anal to the Republican National Convention uh in Milwaukee uh and I was grateful that he was there with Senator Scott of my state Tim Scott and Lindsey Senator Lindsey Graham Governor Henry mm everybody Welcome the Ambassador and it was
▶ 1:10:26just uh such so positive that actually the Ambassador came to Columbia South Carolina after the election and I was grateful to have him welcomed by mayor Dan Rick and by Carl Blackstone Chamber of Commerce president the Secretary of Commerce uh uh Republican and Democrat uh legislators so uh every effort I think should be made to re and reinforce the relationship that's been so beneficial and I'm also grateful that President Donald Trump
▶ 1:10:56as we saw last night believes in a pragmatic foreign policy in reducing the burdens on America I really appreciate that President Donald Trump has praised turkey and Saudi Arabia for working with the new government in Syria additionally uh cutter too has been helpful uh with the new government in Syria and what we need to do is to seek to end the conflicts and the self-declared enemies of American America in Middle East and
▶ 1:11:27North Africa who create the migration CR crisis to Europe and we should be I believe working with turkey for stabilization in the area and indeed uh I'm really grateful turkey has played a positive role supporting assistance to Ukraine from the beginning and also agreeing to possibly send uh peacekeepers to uh Ukraine and then it's also that uh turkey was so critical in the fall of the uh narot
▶ 1:11:57trafficking Assad Syrian regime and with that in mind uh we should be working and we can already see uh that the foreign minister of the regime in Teran condemned turkey yesterday calling their actions for free Syria as unconstructed when in fact uh turkey has been working uh to publicly calling uh for the uh rights of women and Christians with all of this in mind uh Dr B skaya uh what's the best way for the US to encourage
▶ 1:12:27positive Pro progress working with the country of Turkey so uh thank you thank you for the question uh I think the best way to encourage positive progress is uh to be very pragmatic and practical and compartmentalize our relationship again turkey is a problematic Ally on many fronts but we also need it and it is it is part of NATO specifically in Syria uh we have an incredible opportunity um with Assad in power Syria
▶ 1:12:57had no chance and the rest of the Middle East had um the rest of the Middle East uh continued would continue to be unstable in in words Syria stood at the center of terrorism of narcot trafficking of enormous instability that harmed our direct uh National Security interests and the interest of our our allies now we're in an era of uncertainty we have a lot of question about questions about where Syria goes but at least Syria has a modum
▶ 1:13:28of a chance and the best way we can ensure that is to be present to have a seat at the table to to attempt to shape the outcome that is what we need to do and here we can look for ways on how turkey can be helpful along with keeping our own presence in Syria keeping our troops in Syria so again compartmentalize the relationship be pragmatic thank you very much I yield back I recognize the gentleman from California Mr Costa thank you than very much Mr chairman and thank the ranking member for this hearing it's
▶ 1:13:58important and I want to kind of go beyond Bridging the Gap between East and West Turkey um uh has been a challenge and you talked about The Good The Bad and The complicated I think uh previous witness I apologize if I'm asking questions that have already been asked and please let me know but I I I'm am very perplexed and troubled by the turkey's influence and its unwillingness to to um understand the importance of its agreements with Armenia
▶ 1:14:29and uh its engagement with aeran uh that I think really threaten uh Armenians ability to to continue to focus toward the Western interests would you care to comment thank you Congressman I uh very much appreciate your question turkey has a opportunity to help resolve a tragic longstanding dispute inad but they've not been helpful they has not been there exactly instead um turkey helped
▶ 1:14:59to arm aeran to the point where president alev um believed and uh had a military advantage and rather than continuing to work with the International Community turkey included for a peaceful resolution of the unresolved uh dispute the balance to allow that role this Administration is going to play in supporting armenia's efforts there nagor niova which you both referenced is was outrageous what they did there 120,000 refugees that are now
▶ 1:15:29in Armenia and uh not recognizing that historic uh art sock as the Armenians like to refer to it as um I want to switch the uh about Ukraine here I you know some of my colleagues here on the other side uh talk about that we should leave the war on Ukraine to the president I don't subscribe to that I don't think they did so when Joe Biden was President um I think Congress must assert its role uh during the oversight responsibility in behalf of the American people
▶ 1:15:59Russia was the aggressor that invaded Ukraine Putin is the dictator uh Russia uh is a um Syndicate masquerading as a country with a mob boss called Putin and I think if you look at through those lens that prism you understand the Dynamics that we're dealing with here and trying to reach a um are we do you
▶ 1:16:30believe either of you uh that this President giving up our leverage in negotiations while kneecapping Ukraine's military capabilities on the M Battlefield most recently today or yesterday that we're not going to share the ability for them to Target key targets uh Congressman uh President Putin believes he is winning he believes his economy can continue to produce the weapons that are being used to attack Ukraine
▶ 1:17:00um for three years we have disabused him of that notion and uh to get leverage to get President Putin to the table for a peace agreement which I believe a just peace agreement would be in Ukraine's interest because it allows Ukraine to return on its path of Euro Atlantic integration you need to impose costs on President Putin economic and Military costs so when you hear the vice president president's comments at the Munich Summit Security Council when you hear
▶ 1:17:30the vote on the UN last Monday siding with autocrats and dictatorships against our Democratic allies when you see the debacle on Friday uh would you say this is either gross incompetence or maligned intent or neither in terms of what we need to be doing to reach a ceasefire ultimately to get a peace agreement between Ukraine and Russia I I along probably with Anna have closely watched uh what is said in Moscow and to
▶ 1:18:01all of those instances champagne in the kemin right now they have explicitly said uh that all of those developments are in Russia's interests and are going to support Uh Russian success tell me why is the success of Ukraine beneficial to our national security and why should Americans care about what Ukraine's fate um thank you can you hear me yes please I'm running out of time um success of
▶ 1:18:31Ukraine is vital to our national security interest because if Russia is not stopped in Ukraine uh NATO and Europe at large will most likely have to face a b Georgia and malvia and possibly the Baltic states they've already undermined the Romanian presidential election we know what Putin's intentions are he's made it clear he wants to recreate the old Soviet Union he thinks he's a Reincarnation of Peter the Great that's the bottom line and that's what we should understand when we're dealing
▶ 1:19:01with with Russia uh I absolutely agree with you thank you I recognize the gentleman from Montana Mr ziny thank you Mr chairman uh you know I have a lot of experience with with turkey military and I do recognize the contributions of the Korean War uh I was fought in in Kosovo with Turkish troops both armor infantry and have a great deal of of joint operations experience with their special forces and I respect their military and their military is actually key
▶ 1:19:32uh to Nato but uh I have concerns about PPK ypg you talk about a thorn the side between the two countries we have a thorn ins side called Isis and Al-Qaeda turkey has also a thorn in the side called PPK and ypg and an a friend of our enemies is not necessarily A friend of ours and I do think recognize we United States made a mistake diplomatically of not deter or
▶ 1:20:02separating uh PPK ypg uh from Kurds I have a lot of experience with the pesh MGA and it's I give the analogy of an Irish uh not Irish not all Irish are IRA and not all Kurds or PPK or ypg but to you know I think there's a Rec nition that PPK and YP and YPK are are responsible for at least 30,000 deaths of Turkish
▶ 1:20:32which is 10 times of what happened in 9/11 so how do we separate in Syria uh the Kurds that are Marxist leninist terrorist organizations from Kurds that support democracy that may not be our type of democracy but certainly aren't terrorist organ organizations and Miss Waller I would love to hear a comment from you thank you Congressman I would give an example which and you yourself
▶ 1:21:02pointed to it which is Turkey's uh relationship with the Kurdistan Regional government in Iraq and with the PES MGA is quite positive they've worked constructively with those entities and with the government of Iraq the federal government of Iraq in Baghdad on counterterrorism operations at times at times there's been frictions because they've unilaterally struck at KK elements in Northern Iraq but the fundamental reality is that it is possible and we should hold turkey to it to be able to distinguish
▶ 1:21:33between the terrorist organizations and units such as pkk and not as you point out incorrectly with a broad brush characterize all Kurds uh with that same category and they've done it in Iraq and we should hold them to that now with the opportunity in Syria and I have an equal concern about turkey's support of Hamas uh because they have um they offer Harbor they offer financial assistance at times not although not as much as Aon
▶ 1:22:03uh so uh doctor how can we I mean is it possible also to to your AA if we have a de where where we don't support the the ypg pkk uh do you think it's possible for turkey to stop their support of Hamas which is an irritant to us I I think I think it's wishful thinking unfortunately Mr Congressman I I would say that right now um turkey has pushed
▶ 1:22:34all of its chips into the middle of the table as it relates to Hamas I'd also argue for Al-Qaeda for that matter for HTS and Syria I don't think there's any walking back from that um this is an ideological commitment that this government has made to the Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots and even some worse movements I think a reckoning is needed here um I don't think a deal is what's needed to get them to stop this support I at this point I convinced after
▶ 1:23:04watching this play out since 2006 I believe that significant American pressure is what is needed in order to force a divorce between Hamas and turkey and Dr Hannah do you also share the same opinion um yes I I I share that opinion I I think pressure is needed um I also think uh again when we think about our uh our bigger geostrategic interests in in Syria our presence uh our presence in this region is what's going to create
▶ 1:23:35that pressure uh but also our engagement our and our willingness to show that we're not leaving this region that we are willing to that we are committed to our interests and we are not um that that we're not fair we're not fair friends and uh doctor you comment on that if you'd like uh yeah the the job is not done in Syria Isis remains a threat uh the detention facilities if not monitored and kept secure uh would be a a huge setback
▶ 1:24:05u in American and Global Security and so the job is not done thank you I yield back thank you Mr chairman I recognize the gentleman from Rhode Island Mr ammo thank you Mr chairman um look while I appreciate uh the focus on on Turkey uh I think this subcommittee on Europe uh should be discussing the most dire threat to European security uh that's Russia's unlawful invasion of Ukraine that's right Russia and again so we align on some
▶ 1:24:35facts uh it was Russia that in invaded Ukraine and launched an unprovoked War it is an aggressive Russia that poses one of the greatest threats to Europe's freedoms stability uh and Democratic Values it's Russia who now believes the Visions believe that believe the visions of r two na are aligned so instead of having a hearing to address the threat posed by Vladimir Putin this committee is looking the other way literally um no one should sit
▶ 1:25:05should choose to sit back and let president Trump parrot Kremlin propaganda and blow up our European relationships make no mistake the this the scene caused by the president and vice president at the White House last uh Friday was unnerving uh it was in my opinion dis disg graceful ukrainians are dying every day to defend democracy yet uh our colleagues were more concerned about President zalinski and and the flattering uh that he should
▶ 1:25:35have done of of President Trump and his wardrobe uh then the existential war that he's fighting so uh unlike uh my colleagues on the other side of the aisle I I cannot stay silent while our president sides with a dictator over our allies abandoning our allies refus Ching to send them Aid belittling leaders in public does not make the United States stronger it makes us weaker it is clear that America First is rapidly turning into Putin
▶ 1:26:06first and America alone instead of leading by example our president is siding with North Korea and Iran at the United Nations voting to protect Russia this is not the company we want to keep now I I recognize that turkey is the subject of today's hearing a NATO member uh that has offered to host peace talks between Ukraine and Russia turkey has also pushed back against false Russian claims to Ukrainian land but while turkey supports
▶ 1:26:36Sovereign territory in Ukraine they fail to support it in their own backyard in countries like Armenia in 2023 turkey provided material support for azer Ban's brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing in nagoro caraba the ancestral home of the Armenian people the United States supports Armenia we provided over $57 million in foreign assistance to Armenia last year including humanitarian assistance for refugees from negoro
▶ 1:27:06caraba but this assistance was halted by President Trump's illegal foreign aid freeze it is yet another example of trump abandoning abandoning an ally all while turkey has reportedly discussed uh EST lishing a quarter to connect with aeran across armenia's Sovereign territory so I I I I know that uh Mr Costa touched on this a bit but I want to go a little bit deeper uh Miss
▶ 1:27:36wander what steps can the United States take to push back on turkey's support of azer Ban's aggression against Armenia and how can the United States dissuade turkey and aeran from encroaching on armenia's sovereignty with a ground transport Corridor um thank you so much Congressman I agree with you that turkey has played a negative role in the last couple of years on this conflict and uh it
▶ 1:28:06it is difficult to imagine uh that azerbijan would uh come to the table with a reasonable uh and Equitable and and just resolution uh without uh turkey's positive influence um the specifics could be to look at specific arms transfers that contributed to the loss of life and the expulsion of those tens of thousands of Armenians from that region um it also could
▶ 1:28:37uh look at um possible uh Pro uh sanctions on uh Turkish relations uh with Russia in the technology sphere that fuels some of those uh defense industrial Productions I do think targeted sanctions if they were used for leverage to push towards diplomacy could help turkey to play a constructive role um in influencing in particular aeran
▶ 1:29:08and and could you speak a little bit to uh the the ground transport Corridor specifically I don't have any any secret ideas of or public ideas of how to uh succeed impressing that ground Transit Corridor I would uh appeal to Turkey as principled support in support of the UN and international law for Ukraine and ask them to consider no less uh in recognizing
▶ 1:29:39uh the international community's obligation uh for for Armenia to be able to have uh control of its own territory to negotiate an acceptable uh solution to the issues of Transport with Zan uh and offer you know the kind of positive uh the positive influence and example that the Turkish leadership so often seeks thank you I I back I now recognize the gentle
▶ 1:30:09lady from NADA Miss Titus thank you very much sorry to walk right in here yes well thank you uh as y'all have been hearing and talking about um MST the numerous challenges throughout the region preserving peace in the Middle East is vital now as a reliable and stable security partner in the region Greece best represents
▶ 1:30:39us interest there allowing Greece to maintain the qualitative and strategic advantage over turkey is crucial in this respect it provides a deterrent to turkey's historic aggression towards Greece which uh shouldn't be upset and this balance would be upended if Turkey were to f35s despite the recent easing of tensions between Greece and Turkey eron's fundamental positions
▶ 1:31:09and claims in violation of Greek and cypret sovereignty remain unchanged this year saw a sudden uptick in turkey's violations of Greece's airspace while the violations of its territorial Waters continued throughout the last year meanwhile erigon is cozying up to Hamas and threatening to invade Israel yet Greece continues to play a constructive role in the region by promoting energy security through the 3+1 great
▶ 1:31:40sea interconnector providing crucial assistance for Ukraine as Russia continues its war of aggression and serving as a responsible NATO member by working with the US to coordinate Mutual Security goals Greece's responsible Ally ship promotes us interest in the region while turkey seems only interested in promoting eron's Neo ottoman Ambitions uh I would ask Dr schneer is it
▶ 1:32:11if the US has imposed kataa sanctions on any other NATO Ally besides turkey no it is not yeah um no other Ally has acquired the Russian S400 system system no other Ally has put our technology and our allies at risk the way the Turks have and I'm actually shocked that this crisis continues so many years after it began it's actually inconceivable to me that we have not forced this crisis to a suitable
▶ 1:32:41conclusion um I understand that turkey put itself in a pickle but that's not our problem any longer we need that S400 out of turkey but I would also just like to say the way that you have just car erize what's happening in in the Eastern metas exactly as I understand it I think Greece has done more than its fair share to shoulder its load um and it continues to come under attack under threat from Turkey the question is at some point what is the United States do to help support our allies
▶ 1:33:11in Greece I do think that there's an opportunity to perhaps Forge uh some kind of mechanism that would enable the US uh Israel and Greece to work together for the betterment of security in the East Med I sincerely hope we see that materialize uh in the months or years to come I do too I think Greece is strategically located geopolitically to play a leadership role in that area just to add to that are there any other NATO allies who occupy a country the way that turkey occupies
▶ 1:33:41Cyprus and are there any other NATO allies that are actively seeking brics membership or status with the Shanghai cooperation organization I think I know the answer no you're correct okay thank you one other question in your written testimony you mentioned turkey's blue Homeland policy of dominating the Eastern Mediterranean could you elaborate on this for a little bit and tell us how it threatens Greece and uh cypriate sovereignty in the region oh absolutely what what turkey has
▶ 1:34:11done is it has extended its uh the way it views its own territorial Waters to cover effectively almost all of the Eastern Med it's almost as if Cyprus doesn't exist it's as if Greece doesn't exist they've got a a relationship a an agreement with Libya uh that basically wipes Cypress off the map um right and all the while we see illegal drilling uh turkey Drilling in the territorial Waters off of Cyprus and near Greece uh when you see Greek and cypriot vessels
▶ 1:34:42uh coming out of their exclusive economic zones into international waters you're challenged by Turkish vessels this is extremely aggressive and it is articulated in this blue home land policy that this is the design of turkey it's to dominate the Eastern Med I would argue that the conquest of Syria by hayat tah Alam the al-Qaeda group uh has now made uh Greece Israel and Cyprus and other countries in the region very alarmed
▶ 1:35:13they see now a uh a surge in power on the part of the Turkish regime and I get the sense right now that they're looking to work together to begin to counter doesn't sound like turkey's a very reliable Ally to me thank you and I yeld back no ma'am uh thank you we're going to recognize the ranking member and the chair for uh a second round of questioning and I'll go ahead and let the ranking member begin thank you well thank you Mr chairman I'd like to use the second round to go back at statements made
▶ 1:35:43by our Witnesses and there's two that I'd like to emphasize number one Dr shanzer said uh we need reliable allies I couldn't agree more but but honestly uh right now us on the part of our closest allies our transatlantic allies that reliability is openly being questioned just recent comments by French officials German officials our Scandinavian allies uh it's clear I don't have to go they public record
▶ 1:36:15but I can see their point after looking at the US taking an ally like Ukraine and cutting off its intelligence capabilities that we've so integral to success here cutting off weapons funding just important for just their survival as a country uh the actions where we distance ourselves from our allies at the UN and the comments in the aftermath of the uh Oval Office incident of last week which prompted an emergency meeting of our
▶ 1:36:45European allies uh in Britain uh these all make us less reliable so I'd like to ask question one uh how important is this reliability and since I believe it's unmistakable these are the words of our allies themselves essentially saying we're not reliable how important that is that America First can't be America alone now the second point was brought up I'm not sure which witness brought it but uh it was on you know how come turkey
▶ 1:37:15has a view of the US you know of only 20% favorable and and the comments of our Witnesses were well erdan repression of journalists and Free Press uh really resulted in the people of turkey not getting a full message uh and not a clear message and a very skewed message so second question I have is the importance of funding and making sure uh we're positioning our radio free Europe and our radio Liberty
▶ 1:37:45capabilities making sure uh that those things are able and present to break through uh you know that very problem that you you know our Witnesses raised themselves and I question that given uh funding threats in the past I threaten I I question it frankly uh by the advancing of Carrie Lake uh a seven-time election denier to lead that entity so I'm
▶ 1:38:15concerned uh I'm concerned on the reliability and I'm concerned on our ability to uh get uh Democratic messages through through Radio free Europe and radio Liberty alide with Dr Wallander thank you Congressman um so Russia will Russia will be able to rebuild its military and adjust its military and be poised to be able to threaten not just Ukraine but NATO
▶ 1:38:46assessments are in about five years European countries as of last year 23 we're meeting at least the 2% of GDP spending on uh on defense and um many more are moving towards that and what we've heard in the last couple of months is a determination to spend even more and invest in defense industrial base the United States is on the the cusp of achieving something that American leaders have demanded of Europe for 75 years
▶ 1:39:16of NATO which is that NATO that European countries really invest in their defense and really take the lead in defending the country with the United States as an ally but it's going to take them some time and at this point being that reliable Ally giving Europe the opportunity to take that leadership role to free up the United States for our important Global challenges especially strategic competition and the pacing challenge of China it's within our grasp and we have
▶ 1:39:46that opportunity to have that success that by that presidents across um both Republican and Democrat leaderships have sought for for decades importance of global media the importance of Radio free Europe Radio Liberty Radio free Europe and radio Liberty are respected as credible and important sources of alternative information across uh across the globe but but I mean as resources but especially
▶ 1:40:16given the Cold War history even in countries that have free media it's an alternative source of information it's a sour Source about America but it has to be credible it has to be about free media um and it is a huge asset in making the American case and building that trust that enables us to have access in Europe that is so important for our Global Security how you back uh thank you ranking member I recognize myself for five minutes um I want to take four minutes on this
▶ 1:40:46on this next uh question uh We've danced around s400s and f35s so starting with you Dr shanzer uh Greece Israel turkey seem to me to be the the players in this as well as NATO as a whole of course would you just outline the issue for us because this is a major issue in nato in my mind it is and I thank you for raising it uh chairman self um we we spoke
▶ 1:41:17about this before the hearing um there is of course there are different variants of uh of the F35 I think Israel would have a superior one to whatever turkey might acquire and I'm sure it's Superior to whatever Greece has I am concerned however about giving this platform in any form to uh to this government in Turkey I think that it will be used to further turkey's aggressive posture in the region I would fear clashes between Greece and Turkey would not want to put both
▶ 1:41:47Greek and Turkish f35s in the sky as they battle over alexandris or other key uh areas as tensions rise in the Eastern Med I know the Israelis are steadfastly opposed right now to this government which has government in Turkey which has called for a pan Islamic war against Israel giving them rewarding them with the F35 now they were removed from this program because of their acquisition of the Russian S400 system we should
▶ 1:42:17not put them back on and I would argue that even if they relinquish the S400 there should be cooling off period probably several years before we begin to consider Furnishing them with an F35 because there needs to be a price to pay when our allies disobey clear directives as we gave the Turks we said do not buy that S400 they did so anyway they should pay a steep price they should be made uh an example
▶ 1:42:47of I think right now uh for all of our other allies to see either the other two doctors um I'll speak to this Dr I I have a I have a somewhat different view I believe that turkey should I believe the right decision was made to remove turkey from the F35 program to not deliver uh the aircraft that it is already paid for uh because of its acquisition of the S400 system and to impose sanctions as a consequence of that choice uh
▶ 1:43:19I however believe that because the United States is a member of NATO and because the United the American people are only as secure as the alliance is strong it is in our interests for NATO allies to have advanced military capabilities and NATO is moving towards the F-35 as a core capability and interoperability across the alliance is extremely important and if turkia were to undo that mistake
▶ 1:43:50in a verifiable uh irreversible way way to move forward to move turkey under the right circumstances with the right uh provisions and security uh for that decision is something that would be in the American national interests uh and is something that should be Advanced with all due caution with a period of time to ensure that it is uh in American interests going forward Dr bour Bor of skaya yes and I would I would add to that
▶ 1:44:20uh when we sanctioned turkey for the purchase of S400 we did uh and when we removed turkey as a co-producer of F35 we did say that if Turkey were to relinquish the S400 turkey would be brought back into this program um and uh I I agree with celeste's comments to that end uh not only is this issue important because of NATO cohesion because of because turkey is a NATO Ally but the question is what leverage do we have uh with turkey to relinquish
▶ 1:44:50the S400 if not bring bring it back into the program again with an appropriate cooling off period uh thank you well this is a complex topic and I think we all recognize that uh turkey has one foot in Europe one foot in the Middle East and they try to focus on both and I don't think they can uh so in for the purview for the portfolio of this committee uh that I think the NATO military allian is all important as we address
▶ 1:45:21turkey and uh I think that uh turkey uh needs to return to its traditional historic role as anchoring that Southeast corner of the NATO treaty Alliance because this is a treaty uh it is a treaty that carries uh dramatic um consequences if uh Article Five is in invoked so this is an extremely important topic to me as chairman and I know to this
▶ 1:45:51committee because I've heard all of these comments and I appreciate it I thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions the members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to those in writing pursuant to committee rules all members may have five days to submit statements questions and extraneous materials for the record subject to the length limitations without objection committee stands adjourned thank you so much
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