▶ 0:12:00Good morning. This subcommittee will come to order. I welcome the witnesses and subcommittee members to today's hearing. As I've said in the subcommittee, this is not a bipartisan committee. This is a non-partisan committee, and we owe that to those who have served our country. This legislative hearing will continue in that spirit. We've got 14 important legislative proposals to consider here It's important to note that not all of these proposals will move forward to the legislative process.
▶ 0:12:27We hold legislative hearings to learn from VA and other groups about their views on the bills to ensure members are making in Excuse me, informed decisions and when they do or do not mark them up. We value the insight provided by these stakeholders and agencies as an essential part of this process. A number of these proposals seek to improve education programs for American veterans to ensure the taxpayers' dollars are used responsibly.
▶ 0:12:49And I specifically want to highlight three of my bills that are on today's My first bill will modernize the requirements for Vet Success on Campus officers or VMSOCs and allow employees to have a minimum of a bachelor's degree in the relevant field of study instead of a master's degree. This change will allow our VMSOCs to serve more students and veterans on campus without a degradation of those services. Another bill that I have is restoring the VA home loan program in perpetuity act.
▶ 0:13:18This legislation would limit the number of direct loans VA is authorized to purchase back to what the VA had traditionally done before the creation of the VA services purchase program or VASP. I believe if we don't change the VA change VASP, this program will continue to be a Trojan horse on VA's books that could ruin the VA home loan program forever. Listen, the two greatest programs ever developed by this government are the GI Bill and the uh VA home loan program and I'm not going to allow either one of those to fail.
▶ 0:13:48I have used my right as a to get a home loan several Excuse me, I've used my my VA home loan guarantee to buy homes several times and if the the Biden version of VASP was allowed to continue, I fear that the home loan will not exist in the future for my fellow veterans. My bill is needed to change to protect the benefit that has helped so many veterans since 1943. My final bill would provide an option for the waterfall for veterans going through the loss mitigation by establishing a partial claim program.
▶ 0:14:17This program would bring VA home loan the VA home loan program on par with other programs such as FHA, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Many of you have heard my expressed my concerns and frustration with the idea of VA taking responsibility for as many 60,000 mortgages that would put American taxpayers on the hook when the excuse when the foreclosures are to the tune of 16 trillion dollars through VASP.
▶ 0:14:44This legislation would allow VA to provide limited assistance and includes mechanisms to encourage repayments as soon as veterans are able. I look forward to working with the minority to see if we can find a better way to help the veterans without destroying the VA home loan program. Additional bills that we will consider will address the VR&E program, adaptive automobile equipment, GI Bill, and homeless programs through the VA.
▶ 0:15:09I have reservations about some of these proposals on the agenda today and the witnesses testimony and questions from the members will hopefully address some of these issues so we can make an informed decision about whether to move these bills forward through the legislative process. We look forward to hearing from the members who have introduced these proposals as well as our witnesses on how we can continue to improve these bills and better the lives of our veterans. I now yield to my friend Mr. Pappas, the ranking member, for 5 minutes.
▶ 0:15:34Well, thank you to my friend the chairman for holding this hearing and uh we all know that for agencies to be able to carry out their duties, our work here is critically important. And I know we have several pieces of legislation that will consider. Some of them are very strong pieces of legislation and I want to take this opportunity to highlight a few of them. On the agenda today, there are three bills and that are intended to improve the VRNE program, including my legislation to improve the experience for VA and veterans uh to ensure that each veteran has the best possible chance for a successful outcome in the program.
▶ 0:16:04And I thank the chairman for including this bill on the agenda. I think we all recognize that we can write whatever bills we want to with respect to VRNE, but if VA continues to terminate employees at the same rate it has over the last weeks, it won't matter. We're hearing from student veterans around the country who have seen impacts to the VRNE program following the Dosh firings.
▶ 0:16:26Uh now, in late 2024, this subcommittee held a hearing on VRNE where one of the main takeaways was uh that it's not employing enough counselors and support staff. And we know this has been an issue for a long period of time. However, some of the Dosh firings were from the VRNE program uh from individuals who were just hired. So, instead of making progress, we're going in the wrong direction.
▶ 0:16:48That has uh in doubt undoubtedly increased wait times for new student veterans to enroll, um will cause delays for existing student veterans to get class materials. So, we need to hear more about this. I want to quote Chairman Bost who said that he takes Secretary Collins' quote at his word when he says there will be no impact to the delivery of care benefits and services for veterans with this plan.
▶ 0:17:09So, let's be honest with ourselves and frankly taxpayers, we know there will be impacts uh and I urge Secretary Collins to grab the wheel from Doj, change course, bring back the lost staff to VR&E and other critical areas within VA. Now, moving on to the rest of the items on the agenda, I'm really thankful to Chairman Van Orden for including three more critical measures, the End Veteran Homelessness Act, the Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act, and the Fair Access to Co-ops Act in the agenda.
▶ 0:17:37There have been There's been significant progress made during the last four presidential administrations from both parties to end veteran homelessness. That includes a 52% reduction in veterans experiencing homelessness according to HUD. The End Veteran Homelessness Act from Ranking Member Takano is a visionary bill that will be the final piece of this important puzzle. It will make more veterans eligible for the programs Congress has already authorized, closing gaps in eligibility.
▶ 0:18:03Next, the Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act introduced by our colleague Mike Levin would finally provide GI Bill Parity of benefits to our Guard and Reserve members. The bill's overdue. We simply depend on Guard and Reserve Forces more, and it's time the benefit keeps pace with the demands. Finally, the Fair Access to Co-ops Act from Representative Meng. The VA um loan guarantee program, commonly known as VA home loan program, is one of the best benefits that a veteran can utilize. But, the benefit is not able to be used for co-op housing.
▶ 0:18:34Many of us have co-op housing in our district, and I hope we can continue to work on this legislation so veterans who are searching for housing are able to consider all options for their home purchases. Again, I want to thank the chairman, our witnesses, and those who are watching for making this hearing happen, and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Pappas. I will now introduce the witness panel. Our first witness is Mr. John Bell, the Executive Director of Loan Guaranty Services at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Mr. Bell is accompanied by Mr.
▶ 0:19:01Nick Pamperin, Executive Director of Veterans Readiness and Employment. Mr. Thomas Alfonso, Education Director of Education Services, and Ms. Jill Albanese, Director of Clinical operations. Will the witnesses please rise? Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? May be seated. Thank you.
▶ 0:19:28The record will reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Uh all the witnesses will respect the 5-minute rule. So, thank you very much, Mr. Belyeu. You're now recognized for 5 minutes to to deliver your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Good morning, Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting us here today to present our views on several bills that would affect the Department of Veterans Affairs programs and services.
▶ 0:19:56Joining me today are Nick Pamperin, executive director of VBA's Veteran Readiness and Employment Service, Mr. Tom Alfonso, assistant director of policy and implementation from VBA's Education Service, and Ms. Jill Albanese, the director of clinical operations and senior advisor to the executive director for the VA Homeless Program Office at VHA.
▶ 0:20:19While VA's views on all of the bills are detailed in my written testimony, including areas of concern and support, I'd like to highlight several bills in my opening remarks. First, VA supports the Modernizing Veteran Success on Campus Experience Act of 2025, as it would allow VA to hire staff to perform services that do not require a master's level counseling This would improve veterans overall access to services, including counselors with higher-level degrees, to
▶ 0:20:49support them in their educational and career goals. VA also appreciates this committee's efforts to expand veterans' opportunities for accredited independent study programs, and as such, supports the Vets Opportunity Act of 2025. VA also supports the draft Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act, but we have concerns as to whether the Department of Defense would be able to provide the data necessary for implementation.
▶ 0:21:16Further, if DOD if DOD has the data readily available, VA anticipates needing 18 to 24 months to take the necessary adjustments to our adjudication procedures. VA strongly supports efforts to end veteran homelessness and as such we support the End Veteran Homelessness Act of 2025.
▶ 0:21:39However, we do not support the Homeless Grant and Per Diem Program Applications Bill because we believe it to be unnecessary and overly prescriptive. Finally, VA supports the ASSIST Act of 2025 subject to amendments. VA appreciates that the bill would allow VA to provide any medically necessary automobile adaptation for safe entry, exit, and operation of a vehicle.
▶ 0:22:04However, including non-articulating trailers, which are separate conveyance, would significantly increase cost to VA and taxpayers without a clear benefit to veterans that is aligned with the Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. We appreciate congressional intent and welcome the opportunity to work closely with the Congress on all of the bills on today's agenda.
▶ 0:22:30My colleagues and I are prepared to respond to any questions on these bills that you or other members of the subcommittee may have. Thank you, Mr. Bell. The written statement of Mr. Bell will be entered into the hearing record. We'll now proceed with questionings. With questioning, I ask all members and to please respect the 5-minute rule. And again, if you want to go into a second round, we'd be more than happy to. I now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Pappas, for 5 minutes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Pappert, I wanted to see if I could start with you.
▶ 0:23:00Last week, members of the Student Veterans of America were on the hill uh advocating for policy, also raising alarm bells uh regarding VR&E, and considering the legislation before us, I want to gain a greater understanding of the health of the program. Um, and we sent over some questions last month, but wondering if you could uh answer a few of the questions contained in that letter today. So, counselors were deemed essential and ineligible from the fork in the road. Is that correct?
▶ 0:23:31Uh, I appreciate the question. Counselors were exempt Okay. So, have any individuals within the VR&E program, such as VRS positions that support counselors and allow them to take on more cases, have they been removed by the recent Have any of them been removed by recent VA terminations? respectfully, I'll have to take that for the record, sir.
▶ 0:23:54So, is it correct that VR&E counselor positions are not exempt from the hiring Uh, I will have to take that for the And have any VR&E counselors left the program voluntarily or involuntarily since the hiring freeze was put in place? If so, how many? Uh, I don't have a number as for how many have voluntarily left. I will take that for the record.
▶ 0:24:20Do you have any sense if, you know, we had this hearing, as I mentioned in my opening last year, about the dire need um to onboard more counselors to support this program uh that's a game-changer for veterans. Do you have any sense if we're moving in the right direction with respect to the VR&E workforce? Uh, respectfully, I'll have to take that for the record. Last year, um wait times were bad, in some cases six to eight months.
▶ 0:24:48Um, that was before recent actions have been taken, including um a hiring freeze that was put in place. Uh, and we heard from student veterans last week that were enrolled in VR&E that have reported longer wait times. So, can you speak to the issue of wait times if those have Respectfully, sir, I don't have the numbers for the wait times at this time. I will have to take that for the record.
▶ 0:25:13We were talking about basic information that impacts a critical program that provides for our veterans. We're talking about staffing levels, wait times. These are not new issues. These are issues that have been before this committee for some period of time and have elicited bipartisan concern. We did send a letter last month. We are really interested in your attention to these issues and await any response you can give us.
▶ 0:25:38Want to move to my legislation which is a draft bill to redevelop the individualized vocational rehab plan. I want to thank the chairman again for including this legislation in draft Wondering if employment outcomes currently are the only reason that a plan might be developed and what are other reasons why one might be changed? I appreciate the question, sir. There are a number of reasons why a plan may be redeveloped.
▶ 0:26:04If a veteran's disabilities worsen over time and that employment outcome is no longer viable, that's an option to redevelop a plan. If labor market conditions change for a track that a veteran is in and that's no longer a viable option, a plan can be redeveloped.
▶ 0:26:22We do support this legislation as it removes what I'll call squishy language like if applicable and really lays out much more defined conditions for when a plan can be redeveloped making it a much more consistent decision. Do repeated changes to an individualized plan impact counselor caseloads and could that result in longer wait times? It would not affect a counselor's caseload if they're already in a plan.
▶ 0:26:51That veteran is already captured in that counselor's workload, sir. Mr. Bell, if I could turn to you, um we know there's great support for uh the VA loan guarantee uh program, and I'm wondering if you can provide some more um about uh the direction of this program. Um how many individuals are employed at the VA home loan guarantee I I'll have to take that uh for the record and get back to you, sir. Okay. And similarly to my questions for Mr.
▶ 0:27:20Panperin, um have we seen any terminations in this office? If so, how Uh I will take that for the record and get back to you, sir. Any employees in that office take the fork in the road? I will take that for the record and get back to you, sir. So, it's been reported um that um tens of thousands of homeowners uh are at risk of foreclosure, could be eligible um for VASP, uh and I I think this is a a serious concern that we've got to focus on.
▶ 0:27:48There are roughly 35,000 homeless veterans on any given day. Uh how many veterans are supported by VASP currently? And I see my time's almost Uh we have 15,000 uh veterans that uh that are in the VASP program, sir. Look forward to those uh to follow up on those questions that I asked you. Yield The gentleman yields. The chair now uh the gentle lady, Ms. King Holmes, for 5 minutes.
▶ 0:28:16Thank you, Chairman Van Orden, and thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today. So, I'm from the Northern Mariana Islands, and you know, throughout series of these hearings, I've been talking about issues with with access to services, right? And the limited um opportunities for our vets to be to avail of a a lot of these programs and services.
▶ 0:28:37And so, um I want to ensure that when we have policy conversations, that the people in the territories and remote and rural areas are at the forefront of these conversations because they're heavily impacted. And so my my question is to um Ms. Albanese. All right.
▶ 0:28:57So, I know that this committee has heard concerns that urban GPD providers have a significantly bigger support network than their rural which has led to rural providers not being able to submit the applications correctly and creating a lack of transitional housing in rural communities. Would you know if this would be the case in the CNMI if this program currently is available to the territories?
▶ 0:29:24So, the GPD program, as well as many of our other homeless programs, are available um throughout the country and in territories. you know, we do have a very competitive grant application process.
▶ 0:29:38Uh we're happy to work with the committee on any concerns about the grant application process, uh but those grants would be Um do you are you um seeing any challenges with regards to the lack of community organizations that the BA can work with to be able to administer some of these programs or issues with the fact that um because of the thresholds, right, that are provided
▶ 0:30:08by law or by rule, um which limits the opportunity for the territories to be able to participate? I'm not aware of any particular barriers um to uh any providers that are uh trying to get grants. We have a wide variety of grantees that do receive grants through both our all of our grant programs.
▶ 0:30:33Um but again, we'd be happy to work with uh the committee on any concerns around barriers to Okay, thank you for that. Um my next question is to Mr. Pamperin. Um, so we've heard a lot of stories about how veterans basically are getting ghosted by their counselors, right? And have no way of reaching out to anyone. Um, do you believe there's a need for a hotline or available contact information for the VR&E program?
▶ 0:31:01And would this hotline be also available to areas like the territory and remote areas? I appreciate the question, ma'am. There is a piece of pending legislation to add a VR&E specific portion to the education call center, which we do Uh, as far as uh, availability for the territories, logistically I'd have to take that for the record. I'm not quite sure I know uh, the answer to that, ma'am. All right, that would be great. Thank you. I yield back, Mr.
▶ 0:31:31Chairman. The chairman now recognizes Ms. Ramirez for 5 minutes. Thank you, chairman. In the past 72 hours, I've received 20,000 messages from constituents, from veterans and family members of veterans, demanding that I do everything in my to ensure that the VA and the services for our veterans are not destroyed.
▶ 0:32:02And so as I start um, my questions, I want to say clearly to all our veterans and to all the families who wrote to me, uh, I have over 20,000 veterans in my district and I need you to know that your message and your mission is received.
▶ 0:32:18And I want to use today uh, for some real talk about the impact of the Must Trump agenda on veteran The VA and its staff provide service and programs that prevent and end veteran homelessness, which is precisely why I was alarmed by the VA's recent opposition to the End veteran homelessness Act of 2025.
▶ 0:32:40You would think that at a time when the irresponsible firing spree is disproportionately impacting veterans and stripping veteran employees of the VA and other agencies of their gainful employment, we would be doing everything in our resource and at our disposal to ensure more veterans are placed into and retain housing. So, Ms. Albanese, I want to direct this question to you.
▶ 0:33:03Are there currently unutilized HUD-VASH vouchers that could be used to house Yes, there are currently around 10,000 HUD-VASH vouchers available for use. So, there's about 88,000 vouchers under lease and there are what, over 24,000 unutilized? We we have over 90,000 veterans under lease in HUD-VASH.
▶ 0:33:32We do set aside some vouchers for project-based developments. And right now, when we kind of take away the total available vouchers for use and then those set aside, we have about 10,000 vouchers available for use. Okay. So, let let me ask you a follow-up question. Are there homeless veterans who cannot access the HUD-VASH programs because they're There are eligibility restrictions for veterans. So, yes, the So, your answer is yes.
▶ 0:33:59There are homeless veterans who cannot access the program because they're ineligible. So, let me ask you a follow-up question. There are about 20 So, if there are about 24,000 unused vouchers, we'd say, would the end veteran homelessness Act of 2025 bill address eligibility issues for veterans who currently cannot use HUD-VASH to help us get those outstanding vouchers utilized? Yes or Yes, the bill does broaden the eligibility for veterans.
▶ 0:34:28And therefore, it makes it possible for these veterans who are currently ineligible to get access, correct? Potentially, yes. So, let let me ask you another question here. Will this bill allow veterans who are housed under another type of voucher, but need VASH case management to transfer into the HUD VASH program and free up their existing voucher for someone else in need? It would allow the the transfer, yes.
▶ 0:34:55I have I worked in homelessness and addressing homelessness for many years, so this is actually a very important issue to me. So, I have a couple more questions for you. Would this bill make it easier for public housing authorities to use all their HUD VASH vouchers by allowing them to use administrative funds to incentivize landlords to rent to Um we would need to work with our HUD colleagues on that. Um you know, HUD directs the PHAs, not VA.
▶ 0:35:21Um and there are a variety of reasons uh for why uh vouchers can't be leased up through PHAs, uh but potentially it could help, yes. Okay. So, my last question to you is, would helping VA and HUD utilize all the HUD VASH vouchers help communities end veteran homelessness, yes or no? Would it help? Okay. Thank you. Ms.
▶ 0:35:44Albanese, based on what I'm hearing, the End Veteran Homelessness Act of 2025 would go a long way towards solving some of the most critical barriers to housing for homeless veterans. Secretary Collins claims to care about getting veterans off the streets and into housing, but in an oppose in opposing a bill that directly addresses how the HUD VASH program can be used to house unhoused veterans, we can see that this administration doesn't actually really care about addressing homelessness.
▶ 0:36:12I mean, how do you say you care and you're opposing this bill that would help so many veterans who currently are ineligible access these vouchers? And so, let me say this, uh Chairman, to Secretary Collins, not to you. Um I don't know how you can say that you care deeply and actually do the opposite. Everything the administration is doing will only result in more veterans and their families pushed into homelessness. And anyone who gives a damn about veterans should support the end veteran homelessness Act of 2025.
▶ 0:36:42And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. The gentle lady yields to the The chair now recognizes Mr. Barr from the great state of Michigan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate Directly across Like Michigan. Like Wisconsin from Appreciate that. Thank you, sir. Um, thank you for joining us today. Um, and uh, I'm not sure uh, perhaps Mr. Bell, I know you kind of gave the opening remarks. Uh, would you be the best person to speak on the Assist Act?
▶ 0:37:11Um, and your uh, department's position on that? That would be me. Okay, very good. Well, thank you, ma'am, and appreciate uh, you joining us today. I know that um, and maybe you can help walk me through. I know uh, generally the department's supportive. Um, but you had some questions or concerns about the issue about non-articulating trailers. Could you kind of walk me through that? Yes, correct. So, basically it's a safety concern. And these um, devices are not necessarily part of a vehicle modification.
▶ 0:37:40They're separate devices for the most part. And the uh, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has not signed off on uh, safety for those. And so, therefore, we're we're not able to um, we're not able to sign off on those either. Um, and we do have concerns about the safety.
▶ 0:37:58The other um, amendment, if I may, um, is that we do feel that it would be better to just define uh, this more broadly as any medical uh, necessary That way it would give us more flexibility. Um, you know, technology changes all the time uh, with prosthetics and such.
▶ 0:38:21And so, this would give us more flexibility uh in the Well, we don't want to work ourselves out of a job here, you know, someone's got to write the next bill for uh I'm I'm just teasing you, but appreciate that um that insight. I think that's helpful. Um and uh appreciate the general support from the uh department as well.
▶ 0:38:40On the issue though of the non-articulating trailers, it's my understanding that um a number of veterans, and I've heard from veteran organizations about this, they use those for other mobility devices uh that they would use a motorized, you know, wheel or a um automated wheelchair of some kind or another, a scooter device, something like that.
▶ 0:38:58Um they may not have any other way of transporting that equipment otherwise, and what would be the department's view or vantage point of figuring out a way to integrate that need into what we're trying to accomplish in this bill? I may need to take that for the record, but it is my understanding that that there is other legislation that does allow for the non-ar- the non-articulating trailers, but again, it would be best for me to take that for the record. Okay. No, I appreciate your uh your feedback and insight on that.
▶ 0:39:27Um the other question I had was about the um the GI Bill um National Guard and Reserve component GI Bill um trying to find that. I think it is HR 1423. Who would be best to That's me. Very good. Thank you, sir. Um I understand that in the uh remarks you said that you were concerned, I believe, about the DOD transferring over records in relation to what that would require.
▶ 0:39:57Um can you help me understand that better? I feel like, you know, I served in Reserve Guard component um as well as active component like many of our Reserve component members do, where they're activated for a period and then put back on, you know, a a non-activated status, and I don't feel like those records should be difficult to uh to transfer. Well, our statement is that we currently do data transfers with Department of Defense. It doesn't include this data.
▶ 0:40:25our statement is we'd first have to contact the OD. We don't We're not saying the data isn't available. We're saying we don't know. We have to first confirm what's available through DOD, then confirm well, how can they be transferred? If we have to update memorandums of understanding or the other sort, and then build the in- infrastructure for the data to be transferred and moved into our systems. Okay.
▶ 0:40:49Well, I have a specific interest VA technology systems, so I look forward to working with you in that regard. I think it's something that certainly is within our capability of doing. I hope it's within the department's capability of doing.
▶ 0:41:04Certainly happy to press the DOD on how we can do that because I think it's something that would make a big significant difference for individuals who served in many regards on multiple deployments themselves, but may not have achieved the specific active component segment in time that would add up to their full full benefits for the GI Bill. So, look forward to working with you in that effort as well. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes Mr. O'Halleran for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:41:34As an Army veteran and intelligent former intelligence officer, I understand the critical importance of ensuring our veterans have access to economic opportunities and support they have earned through their service. Arizona is home to Luke Air Force Base and a growing number of veterans rely on programs like the VA home loan, veteran readiness, and employment and education benefits, which my bipartisan bill seeks to address. But, many of these bills we are discussing today directly impact the lives of thousands of veterans in my district and across Arizona.
▶ 0:42:04And my first question is for you, Mr. Bell. As you may know, Arizona is experiencing rapid growth, economic growth, but also significant challenges in our housing affordability, like so many other states. Our veterans deserve stability and security in their homes, but I'm concerned about the VA's Veteran Affairs Servicing Purchase Program, VASP, potentially placing additional risk on taxpayers.
▶ 0:42:27Could you explain how the VA justifies servicing tens of thousands of mortgages through VASP as a better financial alternative than implementing a partial claims program? Uh yes, sir. Thank you for the question. VASP was a last resort option uh that um uh through the time where we saw significant increase in interest rates, uh we had a majority of our portfolio that had lower interest rates.
▶ 0:42:56Uh so, we were trying to uh at at the the VA was trying to help both reduce monthly mortgage payments as well as uh account for the arrearages over a specified period of time. It is not the uh program to help uh our veterans.
▶ 0:43:21We know that there's other loss mitigation options and tools uh that are available, and we look forward to uh working with the administration uh to one uh evaluate where we currently are, uh and then as well uh come back and uh work with the committee to continue to expand those Uh well, now currently with President Trump in office, we've seen a lowering of the interest rates.
▶ 0:43:50Is there a plan for the VA to adjust to that? Uh we continue to see uh strong performance from our VA portfolio. Uh matter of fact, we're up in every every category uh from a uh loan guarantee um standpoint.
▶ 0:44:07Uh we're up a year-over-year and purchase and refinance with as well as, you know, our comparative default ratios versus other programs. So, we're continuing to see VA perform very well against its competition. So, is VASP going to start limiting its usage if when the home interest rates keep going down?
▶ 0:44:34I I I I Again, I do not want to get ahead of the administration and the administration as to the future of VASP or the future of the the program.
▶ 0:44:48What I can say is it never was intended as the stopgap for all all mortgages or a long-term program and the home loan guarantee program. And does the VA have the authority to implement a partial claim program?
▶ 0:45:11That's a great question, sir, and I would say that through our current legal landscape, there's nothing in the statutory framework that expressly that expressly authorizes VA to to do that.
▶ 0:45:28Under the original partial claim program that we had during COVID, that was we utilized the CARES Act and the emergency procedures that we had in place. Those currently do not exist. So, we we would look forward to working with the committee as as as well as, of course, with the administration to make sure that we are lockstep in how we're moving Thank you. Mr.
▶ 0:45:59Alfonso, regarding the Veteran Education and Technical Skills of Vets Opportunity Act. How will this bill specifically benefit veterans pursuing online education programs? Uh thank you. So, it does uh additional um it removes some bars that currently exist in statute to some of the online but we does add specifically uh provisions that said it must be it must engage with substantial interaction
▶ 0:46:30an instructor. So, it opens up the opportunity and it adds some some uh barriers some guardrails. I yield back. Gentleman yields the chair now recognizes the gentleman from the great state of Kentucky, Mr. McGarvey for 5 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here today. Uh look, it goes without saying we're in a housing crisis right now in this country and and nearly half of our renter households, you know, I think we we talk about home ownership a lot.
▶ 0:46:59Let's talk about our people who rent for a second. Uh those households are quote That's a really nice term uh to say that they're spending more than 30% of their income on housing costs and it is really uh really something that makes a a change in their daily price in their daily life. So, you know, home prices home prices have gone up. Supply isn't keeping pace with demand. This is all to say the little guy is getting squeezed out. That's why the VA home loan room home loan program is so important.
▶ 0:47:30We know what the GI Bill did for the middle class in this country. We know we're in a housing crisis. I think that the words homeless veteran shouldn't exist. Uh we need to do something big. We need to think of like a Marshall Plan for housing. Bold. We need to build. We need to We need to make access easier. We need to help bring the cost down for people who want to own a home for people who want to rent. In particular, our veterans.
▶ 0:47:56Um but the federal backstop for so much of the lending market is what keeps this running. And so today I want to make sure that we get these bills right. Mr. Bell, in December of 2023, the VA issued an advanced notice of proposed rulemaking related to the VA home loan program for which these for which those at home just means the government puts out a request saying, "Hey, we're thinking of doing this.
▶ 0:48:20What are your The VA wanted to gather ideas for how to simplify or update the minimum property requirements needed for properties to qualify for a VA home loan. That notice was December 2023, and I don't believe the VA has issued anything since. So, Mr. Bell, can you provide us what are the VA's plans to move forward with this process? Can you provide us a timeline? Uh thank you for this question.
▶ 0:48:46Uh and uh I I will say that from someone who has utilized this program myself, um and would not have been able to purchase a home at the time that I was able to utilize the program, uh we continue to try to improve it. Um a lot of that has to do with how parental um that we really need to be in that home buying process.
▶ 0:49:08Uh we want to make sure that we have a safe, sanitary, and secure environment that that veterans can purchase in, but we also do not want to step in uh and prevent veterans from being able to utilize a home loan when when they need it. Uh so, uh we went we did go out with an advanced notice of public rule uh in December of 2023.
▶ 0:49:33Uh with that, we have received multiple responses as to um how to better align ourselves with other programs like Fannie, um Freddie, um the conventional market space so that so that VA doesn't stand alone. Um we are in the process of um, doing our due diligence through that um, through that reg making.
▶ 0:49:59Uh, but uh, the general gist of that is how do we help when we can help and not be a super rental when we need to um, as we have been in the past. Uh, I appreciate that and well, in the time we've got left just quickly turn to partial claims we've talked about. Uh, this has come up a lot because there's been extensive discussion around the VA's authority to implement a partial claim program without congressional action.
▶ 0:50:26There's many in the mortgage and lending industry who strongly believe VA already has this authority under existing Can you commit to providing a detailed analysis of VA's legal authority to establish a partial claim program within 60 days? What are your thoughts on this? Uh, yes, sir. We'll be um, happy to um, I will take that back uh, and uh, with the administration.
▶ 0:50:50Uh, and uh, again, we are right now um, making sure that um, our administration has all the um, uh, all the requirements that they need in which to make the decision to move forward. Uh, so we're we're in the process of doing that right now. Uh, so we certainly can um, will come back with the committee and uh, and and work with the committee on how to get more tools for veterans in the in the future.
▶ 0:51:18And I appreciate that and you know, you and I have not really worked together before, but we get a virtually identical answer every time we have the VA here. So, what we really do we really do want the follow up. We really do want that analysis. We want it fairly quickly too, not to sit on a shelf and be studied and and get a letter to us in 6 months. But we appreciate it. Thanks so much. Mr. Chairman, are you back? General O'Neal's back. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
▶ 0:51:45hey, this is uh, I always spot off and say this is not a bipartisan committee. This is a non-partisan committee and you're about to find out that I mean what I say. I don't care who is occupying the White whether it be a Democrat or Republican. We have an oversight responsibility to our veterans not to you. Mr. Pamperin, you've been in that seat since 2021. Mr. Bell, you've been in that seat since 2022. And the answers that you gave to my ranking member were wholly underwhelming.
▶ 0:52:14Like you managed to to not answer any of the most softball questions you could possibly get. You're completely ill-prepared for this committee hearing. And that's unacceptable. So, let's let's just bring something up here. Mr. Pamperin, I'm going to apologize for these guys to you. That's that's I'm not going to tolerate that type of behavior towards my ranking member. I don't I don't care who's in the White House. Is that clear, You shall be prepared when you come to these hearings.
▶ 0:52:46to be very clear, let me ask you, Mr. Bell, to your knowledge, did any member of the Dodge office direct who the Veterans Affairs Administration should release from Uh, sir, I'll have to take that question for the record. Okay. That's what you said to him the whole time. Mr. Pamperin, to your knowledge, did anyone from the Dodge office direct the Veterans Affairs Administration who they should release from employment? I will also have to take that Okay, that's This is now going to be called the Pappas line of answers, I guess.
▶ 0:53:14So, that's just not okay, gentlemen. The answer is no. The Dodge Dodge office didn't tell you guys who to release. You guys made that decision and I don't think it was done well. Are either one of you aware of a avenue of recourse if you feel that someone has been released that is going to negatively affect the veterans benefits? Are you aware? I am. There is.
▶ 0:53:41There's a way if if if you guys feel if any member of this committee or any of your constituents, gentlemen and gentlelady, feel that there's someone that's been released from the Veterans Affairs Administration and it's going to have a detrimental effect on your constituents, just bring it up and there's a very clearly articulated way to get them back on board. Um I I'd like to talk about this vast thing again because this truly is a So, Mr. uh Mr. Bell how many uh folks are utilizing the vast program right now to your knowledge?
▶ 0:54:12Uh 15,000 uh around 15,000. Yes, sir. And then, how much money is that? Uh so so far uh that's about 4.8 billion dollars in just volume. Uh but again, that's not taking into consideration um our uh the payments uh for mortgage for monthly mortgage and interest. And what was the original estimate per Per loan? Uh the the I'm sorry, sir.
▶ 0:54:41Can I How much money did you think you were going to spend per loan that the VA bought bought up? So, our average loan amount is around 320 uh Right. That's not what I asked you. I asked you what what was the original It was $292,000 and it's actually $321,000. It doesn't seem like a lot of money, but when you when you you run that by 17,000 cases, it turns out to be a lot of money. How many of these uh VA loans that that you guys bought, how many folks have missed payments?
▶ 0:55:12Uh right now there's 31. 31 people? Yes, sir. And what are you doing with that? Uh they will be going through the uh foreclosure um process in the particular Uh um every state has different um foreclosure requirements. Uh so we are um again, this was a last resort option for our veterans.
▶ 0:55:35the whole development of of this is Um, you said that you don't know if the the Veterans Affairs Administration has the statutory authority to do a partial payment. Is that right? Uh, the the original partial claim program so Partial claim program. um, no, sir. Okay. So, there's something it's called HR 1815. And uh, that's being introduced today. It's one of the bills we're supposed to be talking about instead of this other And that's real clear.
▶ 0:56:06It's and I know it because uh, we wrote So, this gives the Veterans Affairs Administration crystal clear authority for this partial claim thing. And you've got to get in line with the rest of these agencies. so in my closing seconds here, I'm going to say this one more time. You not You guys need to get on your I It does not matter who is sitting at the White House. I know that that President Donald J.
▶ 0:56:32Trump is the strongest supporter of veterans of any president in in my in my in my memory. And he expects more out of you. And you will make sure that when my ranking member is asking you questions that you have them at your fingertips. This I'm going to go back and you know, talk to to Mr. Pappas later is wholly All right. You are excused.
▶ 0:57:02I hope you'll stick around for the second panel. The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes to switch out panels.
▶ 1:01:18On our second panel, we'll hear from the following witnesses: Ms. Christina Keenan, Deputy Director of National Legislative Services, Veterans of Foreign Wars. Ms. Julie Howell, Associate Legislative Legislative Director for the Government Relations, Paralyzed Veterans of America. Ms. Elizabeth Elizabeth Ballas, Executive Vice President of Servicing at Carrington Mortgage on behalf of Mortgage Bankers Association. Mr. Tobias Peter, Co-Director of the Housing Center and Senior Fellow, American Enterprise Institute. And Mr.
▶ 1:01:45Will Hubbard, Vice President for Veterans and Military Policy, Veterans Education Success. I now like to welcome the witnesses to our second panel and ask them to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the Thank you. Let the record reflect that all witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Ms.
▶ 1:02:10Keenan, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver your Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee, on behalf of the men and women of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States and its Auxiliary, thank you for the opportunity to provide our remarks on legislation pending before the The VFW's views on all the bills can be found in my written testimony. I will take the opportunity to briefly highlight four of them.
▶ 1:02:36The VFW strongly supports HR 1423, the Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act of to allow any day in uniform for which military pay is received to count toward Post-9/11 GI Bill eligibility. The sacrifices of Reserve Component members have been overlooked for decades despite an increase in activations since September 11, 2001.
▶ 1:03:00Currently, eligibility is based on active duty service, but for those in Reserve Components, basic and initial skills training, annual training, and drill weekends are deemed non-qualifying Full-time National Guard and certain responses to national emergencies also do not qualify. I served 6 years in the Army National Guard. Between training, guard service, and two deployments, which took me away from school and work, I had more than 2 years of full-time service.
▶ 1:03:31I only earned 60% of the full GI Bill Had every day been counted, I would have earned 70% of that benefit. The VFW urges Congress to pass this legislation to allow reserve component members to rightfully earn GI Bill benefits for every day served. The VFW supports HR 980, modernizing the Veterans on Campus Experience Act of to remove the master's level education requirement for Vet Success on Campus or VISOC counselors.
▶ 1:04:02A master's degree requirement is more appropriate for Voc Rehab counselors or VRCs, who provide specific case work for and counseling for VR&E veterans. VISOC counselors are different. They work on college campuses and provide all student veterans and service members with support to navigate their VA benefits and other resources to successfully complete their education. VA should have the flexibility to hire more VISOC counselors to assist veterans on campuses.
▶ 1:04:30Removing the education requirement enables more people, including veterans, to apply for these important jobs. The VFW appreciates the intent of the Veterans Readiness and Employment Transparency Act of 2025 and supports certain provisions to make improvements to the VR&E program. The VFW supports the provision to require counselors to provide veterans with in-person briefings about VR&E services, or virtually if the school is more than 150 miles from the assigned VA regional office.
▶ 1:05:00Student veterans tell us that they want more interaction and more information from VR&E counselors, and this is a good step forward. The VFW supports the provision to require VA to provide annual an annual report on the number of veterans who requested extension of their VR&E This would provide important oversight. It could identify veterans who are not making progress and who may need to have their rehabilitation plans reworked.
▶ 1:05:25This reporting could help reduce waste and abuse of the program, safeguarding this benefit for veterans who truly need And lastly, the VFW supports the end veteran homelessness act homelessness act of to modify the joint Department of Housing and Urban Development and VA supportive supportive housing program or This program combines HUD's housing choice vouchers for rental assistance with VA case management and supportive This proposal would expand case management
▶ 1:05:56for homeless veterans and provide assistance with administrative fees such as security deposits. The bill would establish an annual report on the HUD-VASH program including usage data, staffing, services provided, and barriers that prevent voucher use. It would include a GAO report on the characteristics of homeless veterans served by the program.
▶ 1:06:18These reports would provide important information on the effectiveness of the Understanding the needs of homeless veterans can help us fill the gaps to ensure veterans do not face homelessness again in the future. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, this concludes my testimony. I'm prepared to take any questions you or the subcommittee members may have. Thank you, Ms. Keene. The written statement of Ms. Keene will be entered into the hearing record.
▶ 1:06:44Uh in accordance with committee rule five echo I ask unanimous consent that Representative Obernolte from the great state of California be permitted to participate in in today's committee or excuse me, subcommittee hearing. Without objection, so ordered. Ms. Howe, you're now recognized for five minutes to deliver your testimony.
▶ 1:07:01Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee, Paralyzed Veterans of America appreciates this opportunity to share our views on some of the legislation being considered before the subcommittee PVA members are veterans who have incurred a spinal cord injury or disorder or SCID experience the breadth of VA care and benefits in unique ways due to their injuries and illnesses. Well, our written testimony discusses many of the bills before the subcommittee today in detail.
▶ 1:07:28I'd like to use this opportunity to highlight a few that are of particular importance to PVA members. HR 1364, the Automotive Support Services to improve safe transportation Act of 2025 or the Assist Act would provide technical fixes to the Veterans Auto and Education Improvement Act of 2022.
▶ 1:07:49PVA members work tirelessly in the 117th Congress to secure passage of this important legislation to update the VA's Auto Grant Program and the Department's Automobile Adaptive Equipment Program or to include certain vehicle adaptations in the VA medical benefits package to ensure all catastrophically disabled veterans can access necessary vehicle This is a critical benefit for PVA members. The AAE program allows veterans to live a more independent life, to get to work, to get to their VA appointments.
▶ 1:08:19It even allows them a couple times a year to drive to Washington DC and advocate for themselves and PVA like several of our executive committee members did last Unfortunately, the current wording in the Veterans Auto Education Improvement Act unintentionally limits and in some cases prevents veterans from being able to make necessary modifications to their The Assist Act fixes this language and it will help ensure veterans are able to receive this assistance in the way that Congress intended.
▶ 1:08:46Chairman Van Orden, we thank you for being receptive to stakeholder feedback last Congress in regards to HR 980, the Modernizing the Veterans on Campus Experience Act of 2025. This bill would reduce the education requirement for a veteran success on campus or VET SUCCESS counselor, which PVA believes is an important first step in overhauling the VR&E program. We look forward to working with VA and the subcommittee to transform the program into something more comprehensive, more accessible to more student veterans in the future.
▶ 1:09:16Finally, HR 1793 seeks to improve VA's outreach to VR&E participants and codify these efforts for VR&E staff. We commend the intent of this bill, but we believe its overly prescriptive language will create additional and unnecessary burdens for Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors or VRCs. The consensus is that the VR&E program is incredibly difficult to contact, and nobody at this table will argue that Before the COVID pande- Excuse me.
▶ 1:09:44Before the COVID-19 pandemic, the 1-800 number for each regional office had a prompt connecting veterans with the VR&E office. VA should return to this practice, which would ensure that staff answering phones have a solid understanding of the program and are able to answer the complex questions presented by the As well-intended as the in-person outreach briefings required by this bill are, PVA believes that a majority of these could be held virtually.
▶ 1:10:08As of February 27th, the VR&E program had around 1,000 VRCs working almost active cases. This is well beyond the 1:125 ratio, which has guided program The program has seen exponential growth in recent years, and counselors are struggling to keep up with the workload. Adding several in-person briefings to their list of responsibilities will make it even more difficult for them to maintain the necessary communications and engagement with the veteran clients they serve.
▶ 1:10:39Furthermore, the bill says that only a VRC can provide these informational briefings, even though support staff from the VR&E program are more than capable of offering such a resource. We would be happy to work with Congressman Khanna's office to ensure that this legislation fully addresses the needs of PVA members and all VR&E In closing, each piece of legislation today can only be effectively implemented if VA has staff and the necessary resources to carry them out.
▶ 1:11:07With proper support, legislation Excuse me, without proper support, legislation designed to meet the need of veterans will likely miss the mark and could even fail. Veterans with SCID and other significant disabilities cannot afford to lose the support and services that promote their independence and well-being. Thank you again for the opportunity to share our views on some of the bills before the committee today, and I'm happy to take any questions. Thank you, Ms. Balsay. The written statement of Ms. Balsay will be entered into the hearing record.
▶ 1:11:37Now, is this Is it Balsay? Okay. Ms. Balsay, you're now recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of the Mortgage Bankers Association. My name is Elizabeth Balsay, and I am the Executive Vice President of Servicing at Carrington Mortgage Services. I'm here in my capacity as a member of MBA.
▶ 1:12:05As a lender with extensive experience in servicing VA mortgages, I am honored to testify before this panel. MBA appreciates the subcommittee's commitment to preserving and strengthening the VA home loan program, ensuring it remains an effective and accessible option for our nation's heroes. Veterans have earned this benefit, and it is our shared responsibility to help them achieve sustainable homeownership.
▶ 1:12:33A key priority for MBA and our members is ensuring that if a veteran homeowner faces financial hardship, they have loss mitigation options that are on par with Especially in today's vola- volatile interest rate environment, veterans deserve the same level of protection as other federally backed borrowers.
▶ 1:12:58the VA home loan program lacks a permanent partial claim option, which is a widely used tool that allows borrowers facing temporary hardship to move miss payments to the end of the loan. This ensures stability without the burden of immediate repayment. A partial claim is a proven foreclosure prevention tool used by FHA.
▶ 1:13:21It would allow veterans to stay in their homes while VA and taxpayers remain protected because the funds are repaid when the veteran sells or refinances. Despite the introduction of the VA's program to address the current high rate interest environment, high interest rate environment, veterans should not have fewer loss mitigation options.
▶ 1:13:44A permanent partial claim program will protect veterans and the MBA supports the partial claim program in the VA Home Loan Program Reform Act. However, several changes are needed to ensure the program is workable and provides maximum benefit to veterans. First, the bill must clarify that a partial claim does not reduce the VA guarantee on the first mortgage.
▶ 1:14:11If a partial claim is deducted from the 25% loan guarantee, lenders will be left with little to no remaining coverage, increasing risk and making VA loans less competitive in the market. This could reduce veterans access to VA mortgages. Second, the bill currently requires veterans to begin repaying their partial claim within 3 years to maintain a 0% interest rate with a 0.5% interest rate imposed if repayment is delayed.
▶ 1:14:42Veterans should not be subjected to unnecessary repayment burdens that could jeopardize the ability to remain in their homes. This is inconsistent with other government partial claims and would prove difficult to operationalize. Third, the bill sunsets the partial claim program on September 30th, 2027. This would significantly limit its effectiveness.
▶ 1:15:08A longer effective window, such as 5 years, would ensure meaningful assistance for more veterans. Finally, shifting to VASP, this tool has provided critical relief to thousands of veterans whose loan payments became unaffordable in today's higher rate environment. While partial claims should be the first line of defense, VASP has been an essential safety net for borrowers who had no other options.
▶ 1:15:34Without VASP, VA would have foreclosed on tens of thousands of borrowers. MBA strongly appro- opposes the Restoring the VA Home Loan Program in Perpetuity Act, which imposes an arbitrary cap of 250 loans per fiscal Rather than limiting VA's ability to assist veterans, Congress should focus on strengthening loss mitigation tools, like a permanent partial claim, so that VASP becomes
▶ 1:16:05a tool of last resort, not the only option available. Another ongoing concern for the MBA is the VA funding fee, which has been repeatedly increased or extended to offset the cost of unrelated veteran benefits. We urge Congress to stop using the VA funding fee as a budgetary offset and ensure it remains aligned with the home loan program's mission. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
▶ 1:16:34MBA looks forward to working with you to establish a permanent partial claim program, improve and preserve VASP as a necessary tool and ensure the VA home loan program remains a strong and competitive option for veterans. I look forward to your Thank you, Ms. Balsay. The written statement of Ms. Balsay will be entered into the hearing record. Mr. Peter, you are now working at your 5 minutes to deliver your testimony.
▶ 1:17:01Chairman Van Orden, ranking member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify The VA loan program consistently outperforms other government and back mortgage programs in managing mortgage risk. For example, during the aftermath of the great financial crisis, VA loans had default rates half the levels of FHA, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac loans after adjusting for differences in risk Even in recent years, VA serious delinquency rates have been half of those of FHA despite serving borrowers with similar risk profiles.
▶ 1:17:31The VA's superior performance is due to several factors, including prudent underwriting um that incorporates residual income requirements that ensure borrowers can afford their loans, a veteran veteran-focused appraisal process that reduces inflated and the VA's 25% stop loss provision, which unlike FHA's 100% loan coverage ensures alignment of interest between veterans, the VA, and servicers. Despite these strengths, FHA loan servicing VA FHA VA loan servicing is at a crossroads.
▶ 1:18:02While no one wants to see foreclosures, especially amongst um veterans, a system that eliminates foreclosures entirely is unsustainable. Much like religion without hell. Furthermore, history shows that government programs often start small but expand unsustainably, the federal loan federal student loan program being a prime example. The same risks exist in expanded VA loss mitigation efforts. They include short-term reductions in delinquency rate may be misleading as borrowers may continue to struggle and um others um that may not need the benefit take it up.
▶ 1:18:32Increased risk of looser lending standards and greater political interfere interference, higher taxpayer exposure and greater federal backing means eventual costs are borne by the The VA servicing purchase program, the VASP program, has fundamentally altered the VA's role in lending in veteran housing finance. Offering overly generous forms of of relief, which could create moral hazard, and it has shifted the VA from guaranteeing loans to directly managing This represents significant risk. It could disrupt the alignment between private services, the VA, and veterans.
▶ 1:19:02Um it could disadvantage veterans in the long run as the VA lacks expertise in large-scale loan servicing, and it could lead to greater taxpayer exposure as VASP defers risk rather than resolving Similar pitfalls have already played out in the student loan program when in 2012 at 2010, um the federal government eliminated private underwriting and put loans on its books, leading to uncontrolled borrowing and skyrocketing tuition. Then income-driven repayment plans and loan forgiveness shifted costs to taxpayers and increased moral hazard.
▶ 1:19:31And remember that originally the student loan program was supposed to be a money maker for the federal government. VASP VASP follows the same trajectory, turning um VA lending into an entitlement-like program, weakening market discipline, and increasing long-term costs. Given that the VA intends to serve over 40,000 veterans through this program, I commend the committee's leadership um to limit its expansion by capping VA um um loan purchases and exploring options to afford the sale of VASP loans to the private sector.
▶ 1:19:59The proposed lo- last mitigation option in the VA Home Loan um Program Reform Act are a better alternative to VASP, but still present significant Partial claims is treated as a are treated as a last resort, but this could incentivize services to bypass their additional loss mitigation and shift risk to taxpayers.
▶ 1:20:17It fronts loans partial claims against the 25% stop loss, potentially limiting future um loss mitigation options for veterans, and the 2027 sunset provision helps curb taxpayer exposure, but there's no overall cap um on the program, so um increasing the risk of moral hazard and strategic While this proposal is improvement over VA's, it should not be seen as a long-term solution. The VA's overarching goal should be to promote sustainable homeownership without relying on government bailouts.
▶ 1:20:45The VA loan pro- The VA loan guarantee program has consistently proven to be far more effective at managing risk than other federal housing programs. Instead of diluting the VA's um successful model to resemble less successful programs, other agencies should be learning from the VA's success.
▶ 1:21:00Furthermore, my research on over 1.2 million GSE and VA loans originated in 2006 to 2007, just before the severe stress event of the gro- of the global financial crisis, demonstrates that prudent underwriting upfront can dram- dramatically reduce default rates even under um severe um economic stress. Ultimately, the VA loan guarantee program should protect both veterans and taxpayers while preserving its integrity and stability over the long run. Thank you, and I look forward to your Thank you, Mr. Perito.
▶ 1:21:30The chair now recognizes Mr. Hubbard for 5 minutes. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to test- testify today on behalf of Veterans Education Success.
▶ 1:21:45We are a nonprofit organization with the mission of working on a bipartisan basis to advance higher education success for veterans, service members, and military families, and to protect the integrity and promise of the GI Bill and other federal education programs. Before I turn to the legislation at the news of staffing cuts at VA demands our attention.
▶ 1:22:09Echoing Chairman Bost's statement last week, we are anxious to understand the impact of these cuts on VA's ability to deliver veteran services to veterans, especially the GI Bill, as well as the mental health health impact on veterans who have been dismissed from federal We urge the subcommittee to make inquiries to capture that data.
▶ 1:22:31Turning to legislation, we offer our strong support for the Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act and express our gratitude for the bipartisan bicameral support of that long overdue measure. We do have concerns about three bills on today's agenda and the likely unintended consequences of each. First, we strongly oppose the Vets Opportunity Act as written.
▶ 1:22:59It poses very serious risk to taxpayers and veterans by opening up the GI Bill to fraud, waste, and abuse that Congress wisely excluded in overwhelmingly bipartisan agreement when Section 3680A was last amended in 2017. Past congressional action on this issue was well-founded.
▶ 1:23:23The purpose was to protect veterans from predatory programs that lack and often deliver little more than YouTube videos disguised as instruction. One veteran told us they replayed free web seminars as and used unqualified people to lead Everything they did, I could have done for free. This bill would open up the floodgates to such abuse abuses and we encourage its reconsideration.
▶ 1:23:55Lastly, this bill is unnecessary because Section 3680A A paragraph four already allows hybrid college degree and certificate programs at all types of institutions of higher learning, including for-profit schools. Next, we support the intent of the Reforming Education for Veterans Act to protect student veterans called to active service.
▶ 1:24:21However, these protections already exist under the Isakson Roe Act and the Higher Education Opportunity Act, making this bill largely More concerning, Section 3 would limit compliance surveys for multi-campus institutions to just one per This is a dangerous proposal given to the some of the worst GI Bill abuses occur at chain schools.
▶ 1:24:51Our research showed that from 2009 to 2017, eight of the 10 schools receiving the most GI Bill funds were at multi-campus chains. Seven of which faced law enforcement action for fraudulent recruiting and loan schemes. Less than 28% of their students graduated and only half earn more than a high school grad graduate, so by earn less than a high school graduate.
▶ 1:25:20We do support Section 4, which ensures timely updates to school certifying and encourage its inclusion in future Finally, we oppose the current version of the Safe Veterans Act, which removes key oversight measures for flight training under VR VA's VR&E program. Flight schools have a long history of GI Bill abuse.
▶ 1:25:43As former House Veterans Affairs Chairman Jeff Miller put it, "The flight school loophole is so big, you can fly a 747 through it." This bill removes safeguards without adding new protections, potentially leaving a veteran with without a career path while wasting GI Bill funds. We urge the subcommittee to reconsider this legislation. Thank you for your time and commitment to these issues.
▶ 1:26:12I look forward to any questions that you or any members of the subcommittee may Thank you, Mr. Hubbard. Both Mr. Peter and Mr. Hubbard's uh testimony will be entered into the hearing record. We'll now proceed to question. I recognize ranking member Mr. Pappas for 5 minutes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Hubbard, maybe I could start with you on that last bill that you mentioned and I appreciate you highlighting the long history of GI Bill abuse that exists um and concern around removing safeguards.
▶ 1:26:41And so this uh SAFE Act would allow flight training programs that don't lead to a degree to be approved under the VR&E program. Um certainly support the goal of getting veterans into aviation. I'm sure you share that uh goal. Uh but concerned about the consequences of this because if a veteran finishes the program for whatever reason the veteran doesn't become a pilot um and there could be any number of reasons why that happens.
▶ 1:27:04Um wouldn't these veterans sort of um lose out on an opportunity to be prepared for a career and shouldn't the benefits for flight training uh come at least with some guarantee that there's going to be a job at the end of the program? Thank you for the question, Mr. Ranking Member. Uh we would agree uh and ultimately it's not just about inputs and outputs, but about outcomes.
▶ 1:27:30And if a veteran is left with a uh an experience that doesn't give them long-term career stability, ultimately that doesn't succeed by the standards and the purpose of the GI Bill, which is to provide for long-term transition. And so we appreciate your question. We'd look forward to working with you and members of the sub-subcommittee on that Thank you. Ms. Howell, I don't know if you have any reflections on that particular bill, um but wondering if you share the concerns that Mr. Hubbard raised on that legislation and if you can think of any ways that we could improve the legislation.
▶ 1:28:01Thank you for the question, sir. Uh you will notice that bill is absent in our written testimony. We determined not to make uh take an opinion on this bill this time. Okay. Well, thanks for that, but I I certainly do appreciate um your feedback about VR&E generally, just how we've blown past the ratios that should be broadly accepted and the way that impacts the ability of individuals to get access to the support that they need and certainly look forward to hearing more detail from VA on the questions that
▶ 1:28:31they failed to answer today that we will insist on getting the answers to because we know there's a lot more ground we've got to cover with respect to having the counselors in place and making sure the workload is distributed in appropriate fashion so that that program succeeds. Ms. Balsay, if I could turn to you next, thank you very much for your comments and when you think about VASP, we know that up to 80,000 veteran homeowners are at risk of foreclosure could be eligible for the program.
▶ 1:29:01We heard on the last panel that there are 15,000 that are currently in VASP. My concern about this program and you talk about this could be a tool of last resort here, but if it were to end tomorrow, you could potentially see these individuals in dire straits. So, what would happen to homeowners that are currently enrolled in the program were the plug to be just pulled all together? As far as I'm going to bifurcate that, thank you for the question.
▶ 1:29:31Um, so as far as you know, homeowners that have qualified, we're certainly in the transfer process to VA's sub-servicer and I'm sure they would would move on their way, but if the program was VASP was stopped today, the veterans that have requested assistance, right now their only option is is if they can't do a short-term repayment plan, is modification.
▶ 1:29:52So, at this week's rate of even if they've got a 5% mortgage and you're taking care of any delinquency, even going out 40 years, you're going to increase that that veteran's mortgage payment. That's where if we had the partial claim in the waterfall, um that is interest rate indifferent, right?
▶ 1:30:17So, regardless of your rate environment, if you've got that partial claim as one of the first steps in your waterfall, someone gets eight months behind, they can get caught up and resume their normal payments without going through the payment shock um of a And you mentioned uh disparities that exist between VA loans and other federally backed loans.
▶ 1:30:37Could you talk about of some of those differences and features that could potentially um be utilized to assist veterans and would that, in your opinion, in any way be diluting uh the integrity of the Thank you. So, FHA has a partial claim program. USDA has they call it the MRI MRA, but it's a similar partial claim program. Fannie and Freddie have deferrals.
▶ 1:31:03So, every federally backed loan except VA loans have have partial claims. And when VA did release the partial claim program an emergency method during emergency program during COVID, it was used very effectively. Um but yes, the other the other federally backed loans all have something similar. It is It is only VA that does not. Thank you. I yield back. The gentleman yields.
▶ 1:31:33The chair now recognizes Representative King from the Northern Mariana Islands. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I am very interested in um HR 1423, which is the the parity act the Guard and Reserve GI Bill Parity Act. I really support it and with just the number of people who are signing up in the military or the National Guard in the CNMI, um you know, there's been a lot of conversation in our community.
▶ 1:32:03but if you've been paying attention to what's happening here in Congress, there's a lot of consternation with regards to mandatory spending, right? And increasing and and just the cost of that program. And so, I just kind of wanted to hear um from the VFW because you are the voice of so many people who have served this country.
▶ 1:32:22Um what are different ideas or recommendations where we can look at this as an opportunity to have a win-win, to be able to provide, you know, well-deserved benefits to those folks who um have served our Thank you so much, ma'am, for the This is about recognizing every day in service.
▶ 1:32:42The more that our reserve component service members serve um in national natural disasters, domestically, border security, even security around the capital for certain um it's it's to honor that every day that somebody wears the uniform that they're receiving military pay to go toward these education benefits which are going to help them in the future. So, it's really safeguarding the future of veterans so that they are gainfully employed when they do leave the service. Thank you for that.
▶ 1:33:13And speaking of education and because you are the voice of um many veterans, this question is, you know, um what are you um Can can you just elaborate a little bit more on the importance of the the Veteran Readiness and Employment Transparency Act and your thoughts? Um and its importance to student veterans across the country.
▶ 1:33:38So, we've provided testimony um in the last couple of years of of needed improvements to the VR&E program. So, aspects of this bill we support as in having more um interaction with VA counselors, the VR&E counselors, and the VISOC counselors, and the school certifying officials, but also the veterans that they serve. So, these are things that the schools have asked for more for and and students have asked for that as well.
▶ 1:34:02So, we see that some of these provisions as a step in the right I guess I just wanted to highlight or underscore, you know, this bill attempts to address a certain issue and I just wanted to underscore what those challenges are and what we're trying to fix. So, thank you. Thank you for being here today. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. The gentlewoman yields back. The chair now recognizes Ms. Ramirez from the great state of Illinois. Thank you, Chairman, from the generally good state of Wisconsin.
▶ 1:34:33just kidding. Just kidding. Great state neighbor to Illinois. I I want to jump right in. I want to talk specifically about HR 1814, the Restoring the VA Home Loan Program and Pertuity Act of 2025. Ms. Balse, thank you for letting us know how to pronounce your name. I appreciate it. Um your testimony was very critical of the Home Loan Program and Pertuity Act. You in your testimony expressed concern over limiting the Veteran Affairs Servicing Purchase, the VASP program, to 250 individuals.
▶ 1:35:02And so, I wanted to ask you directly a couple questions if you can answer them um together. Why is it so damaging to veterans? And are you aware how a figure like 250 borrowers was determined? And is there an appropriate cap? I'll answer the second one. Thank you for the question. I'll answer the second one first if that's okay. I don't know how 200 the number 250 was was come up with.
▶ 1:35:27Um it it seems again very very low for the number of veteran homeowners we have in in the United States. It's low for the number in Carrington's portfolio. Um and as far as answering your first um as far as underscoring why it would be so damaging to veterans. right now, you know, look, before VASP was brought out, servicers agreed to a voluntary moratorium.
▶ 1:35:54Most servicers did because we were told a new loss mitigation program was coming out. If VASP had not been rolled out, um and there would have been no moratorium, VA would have foreclosed on tens of thousands of homeowners. Um again, there's a limit to affordability, and in a changing rate environment, if you're at 3% going that's just not workable for veterans even when they want to keep their home.
▶ 1:36:21Uh so, I think with it as the last step in your loss mitigation waterfall, it is a needed step, and right now, it's kind of the only step. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm going to skip over here cuz you actually just said what I was about to say here. We're we're thinking alike. So, without VASP, the risk of veteran foreclosures it's only going to grow. And in response to this crisis of foreclosure and housing my colleagues across the aisle proposed this legislation that would severely limit access to VASP. But, I have a follow-up question for you, Ms. Balsam.
▶ 1:36:52Can you quickly explain what the potential consequence consequences would be for veterans and their families if VASP was eliminated before a permanent partial claim program would be established? What would be the impact on these borrowers, the servicers, and the overall stability of the VA loan I mean, that's That's you know, Yeah, period. That's really where it's going to come to.
▶ 1:37:18Some may Some may choose to to sell their home and may have have equity depending on when they bought and if they didn't use the 100%, but the short answer is foreclosure. Thank you, Ms. Balsam. I think it's really important to put that on the record. I mean, what we're trying to do is create housing stability for our veterans, not foreclosure. So, thank you for that. I want to pivot real quick for what I the time that I have in fact left to talk a little bit about HR 1458.
▶ 1:37:42And we know that it's equally important that we're looking at how veterans are being supported in the pursuit of their In my work to restore GI Bill benefits for veteran students defrauded by educational institutions, I've heard about programs that exploit veterans hard-earned GI benefits by charging them thousands of dollars, which I think Mr. Hubbard you were just talking about um for content that they could have easily found for free online. Ms. Keenan and Mr.
▶ 1:38:10Hubbard, isn't it alarming that some of these so-called educational programs are charging veterans thousands of dollars for nothing more than content they could find free on YouTube? Yeah, I I see you're nodding. I think you say yes, so let me follow up with a with a more direct question.
▶ 1:38:29Can you explain why a veteran's hard-earned education benefits should go toward a independent study program with zero quality control? I'll let Ms. Keenan start cuz I know you've already shared some already. Yeah, thank you. I'd appreciate the question. Uh I mean, we're happy to work with your office on on finding the right way to hold these schools accountable and to provide the best educational opportunities for veterans.
▶ 1:38:58How that's actually done so that it's not overly restrictive, I think there's a balance there, but we definitely want to ensure that GI those hard-earned GI Bill benefits go toward education that actually helps veterans get jobs. Thank you. Mr. Hubbard, 5 seconds, anything to add to that? I'll be brief. When a veteran goes to a college or program, they expect quality and that's what they should be getting. Got it. Thank you. So, in my 10 seconds, my opinion, we need to make sure that we're standing up to these Trump agendas that are waging war on our veterans.
▶ 1:39:26The bills that we are asking to be considered feel deeply and serious if they're not actually creating more education opportunities and housing stability for our veterans. With that, I The gentlewoman yields. in accordance with committee rule five echo, I ask unanimous consent that Representative Meng, Ms. Meng from the great state of New York be permitted to participate in today's committee subcommittee hearing. Without objection, so ordered. The chair now recognizes Mr. Obernolte from the great state of California for 5 minutes, sir. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:39:56I'd like to thank you and the subcommittee for including my bill in this hearing, the Streamlining Aviation for Eligible Veterans Act, or SAFE Veterans Act. This important, but very simple piece of legislation enables veterans who qualify for voca- vocational flight training through the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program, the ability to complete flight training through a flight school.
▶ 1:40:21This will increase flexibility for veterans seeking vocational flight training outside of a college degree program, while simultaneously working to address the US airline pilot shortage. As we all know, the VR&E Program is an important component of veterans benefits, providing services to eligible service members and veterans with service-connected disabilities to help them prepare for, obtain, and maintain suitable employment or achieve independence in daily living.
▶ 1:40:49The program currently requires flight training programs to be tied to traditional 4-year college degrees to receive funding. However, most major airlines no longer require college degrees to enter the cockpit. The SAFE Veterans Act takes action accordingly to remove the VR&E degree program requirement specifically for flight training programs, helping to put more veterans in the cockpit. While roughly 2/3 of airline pilots were veterans in 1980, that number has dropped to only around 30% currently.
▶ 1:41:19Simultaneously, the United States has experienced a growing pilot shortage over the past decade that's been exacerbated in the post-COVID era. As a result, major airlines have resorted to canceling flights, parking regional jets in long-term storage, and leaving travelers stranded. Increasing opportunities for veterans to return to the commercial airline cockpit through the Safe Veterans Act will address the ongoing pilot shortage while dramatically increasing accessibility of vocational flight training programs for those who have served.
▶ 1:41:47And so that's why I'm honored that my bill was included as part of this hearing and I'm looking forward to working with my colleagues on the subcommittee to get this bill to the president's desk and it's an honor to be carrying this legislation. Again, we had broad bipartisan support for it when it passed out of this committee last year. just to address uh Mr. Hubbard, your uh your objections in your testimony, uh you asserted that the bill removes safeguards. I would uh vehemently disagree with that. This is a very simple bill. The operative part of the bill is a single sentence.
▶ 1:42:17All it does is remove the requirement that flight training programs include a four-year degree and I would assert since uh airlines are no longer requiring a four-year degree, that uh removing that requirement makes perfect sense uh because it focuses the efficient use of taxpayer resources to get our veterans the vocational training that they need for the job that they're training for. Uh Ms. Keenan, I appreciated in your testimony that uh the VFW supports uh the Safe Veterans Act.
▶ 1:42:46Could you uh talk a little bit about uh how this bill brings parity to the flight training within the VR&E Uh thank you for the question. Um since this is an option for um those using their GI Bill benefits, we think this is a a reasonable expansion for VR&E recipients. Um additionally, if if between the veteran and their uh Voc Rehab counselor, if it's determined that this kind of education would be beneficial for their employment outcomes, then we see this as a reasonable addition.
▶ 1:43:15Well, thank you. I would agree and I appreciate your support. Uh Mr. Chairman, thank you again for the opportunity to testify and thanks for including the bill in your hearing today. I yield back. The gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes Ms. Meng from uh New York for 5 minutes. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and distinguished members of the House Veterans Affairs Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity. Thank you for allowing me to testify today. I would also like to thank Ms. Christina Keenen from the VFW and Ms.
▶ 1:43:44Julie Howell from the Paralyzed Veterans of America for testifying in support of my legislation. I am honored to once again speak in support of my Fair Access to Co-ops for Veterans Act, which would finally allow veterans to purchase cooperative housing units, also known as co-ops, through the VA home loan program.
▶ 1:44:05The VA home loan program has been a transformative benefit for service members for over 80 years, but this program can't be fully enjoyed by New Yorkers who served in our armed forces. In New York City, about two out of three apartment buildings are co-ops. And if you've seen New York, you know that's a lot of co-ops. Co-ops on average are more affordable in New York than condos or homes.
▶ 1:44:31They offer a realistic way for working-class New Yorkers to own their place and build Currently, a veteran or service member can use their VA home loan to purchase a condo, a town home, a mobile home, or a manufactured home, but not a co-op.
▶ 1:44:49Last year, a recently married service member in the New York Army National Guard reached out to my office asking why he could not use a major benefit like the VA home loan on New York's most affordable housing option.
▶ 1:45:05His story is typical amongst the roughly 200,000 veterans that call New York home and countless other veterans in towns and cities across the country where co-ops are present, like Palm Beach, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, and It's our job to serve those who serve us. So, let's serve them by increasing the accessibility of home ownership to more veterans.
▶ 1:45:29Let's expand the American dream that the VA home loan program helped define over 80 years ago. Let's give veterans and service members access to co-ops. I look forward to working with the chairman and the ranking member to get this legislation over the finish line. Thank you again for your time and consideration of this matter. I ask the chairman, ranking member, and distinguished members of the subcommittee to please support my fair access to co-ops for Veterans Act.
▶ 1:46:00Thank you and I yield back. The gentle lady yields back. The chair now recognizes myself for 5 minutes. Uh okay. Let's talk about this vast thing again here. Miss Halsey. Uh you are representing mortgage Let's say uh Mr. Peter has a loan and he doesn't pay the loan back. And uh Miss how's the VA? Okay, so we're no I know. I She just crinkled her nose.
▶ 1:46:30Let the record reflect that Miss Halsey crinkled her nose. Mr. Peter defaults on his loan. And you're getting stiffed, right? Cuz you're out of money. And then that loan's at Let's just say 8%, right? And then uh Miss Halsey goes, "Hey, I got a great idea. We're just sitting around here. Um let's go ahead and buy the loan and reduce the interest rate from 8% to 2 and 1/2%. Who Who pays the difference?
▶ 1:47:00Cuz you're you expect to get paid that you you lent that money at 8%. You're You're expecting that money to come back, right? At 8%. Correct. The Okay, so who pays the difference? Everybody in this room. So as a mortgage broker, I'd be like, "Yeah, this vast thing's the best thing ever cuz it makes you whole. It gets rid of a bum loan and it passes it off to the American So, let's be frank here, ma'am.
▶ 1:47:29Um if I were a mortgage broker, I'd say this is the best thing ever because I get to lend out all this money and uh then I get rid of it and everyone else is going to pick up the slack. That's what's taking place here. So, who administers this loan when once Ms. Howell has taken it over? Uh the VA's sub-servicer that they've Who Who is that? I believe it's PHH. Okay, and and what else does PHH do?
▶ 1:47:58They service loans for many other um They're loan servicers. Like who? Uh various investors. And what's the vig? What's the vig? What are they getting? No one does anything for free, ma'am. True. No one services loans for free, trust me. But um no, I do not I'm not privy to the terms of their contract. Affairs Administration is going to buy Mr.
▶ 1:48:23Peters' loan, make you whole for the the delta between the interest rate agreed to and the interest rate it's going to be at now. And the VA doesn't know how to administer loans, so they hire somebody else out, probably the same people they were administering the loan to begin with. So, no. And and look, I'm not made whole. I'm servicers if I'm again the servicer here. I make money by servicing loans. No, you're not the servicer. You It's your loan. Oh, I thought it was his loan.
▶ 1:48:52Right, he borrowed the money from you. Got it. Okay. Well, so it's my loan and and VA bought it at 2 and 1/2%. Which again, we modify loans in our portfolio back when interest rates were down to that all the time. So, the the difference there, the delta is just part of doing business. So, his loan leaves me at Carrington. It goes to PHH. I no longer have a loan to make money off of. You don't.
▶ 1:49:19and the VA have a loan to make money off of, but you got the money cuz the loan's been I was I was paid. There are losses that they suffer from each Okay. So my my point is this. It sounds like this great altruistic program and it's not. And if I was a mortgage broker and I just had a mortgage broker head on, I'd be like, let's keep this going. Let's let's keep it rolling. If I was just an American taxpayer and I took my mortgage broker hat off, I'd say this is a travesty.
▶ 1:49:49Um and it is and we're not going to do So Mr. Peter can you expand a little bit between this cuz I think it's very salient to the point that you brought up where the student loan program really sounded like a great idea.
▶ 1:50:10Can you kind of like draw the parallel here because we everyone can clearly identify including the Supreme Court of the United States who said that President Biden did not have the legal authority to relieve these student loans and he said I'm going to do it anyway. So if everybody up and down the chain of command except for the student who's getting this money for free um including the Supreme Court says this is a bad idea. Could you draw this parallel so that everybody understands the potential horrible ramifications for Yeah, I mean exactly.
▶ 1:50:39I mean once the federal government takes over a loan and puts it on its own books as this happened with the student loans, but here happens with the with the VA program where it becomes from a private sector loan becomes a direct loan on the books of the in the case of the student loan of the Treasury and now in the in the here in this case of the VA. Um There's there there's not the guardrails are gone.
▶ 1:51:00Um the federal government can just say, well, from now on we're going to reduce the payments that you have to Um or you just don't have to pay, you know, for a certain amount of time or after 15-20 years your your loan is forgiven and um you know once other I mean in this in this scenario that you outlined I'm you know I may be talking to my other friends and they realize that this is a you know that they can get the same deal they may stop making payments on their loans as well. Mr. Peters, thank you. I want to be respectful of my colleagues time and my time has expired.
▶ 1:51:31I want to thank you all for attending this hearing and I appreciate the discussion today. I really do. There's several bills in here that are awesome. There's a couple that need some work on it. I want to thank all the members and the subcommittee staff for working on this and with that I'd like to yield to my ranking member, Mr. Pappas, for any concluding remarks he may have. I I thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:51:50Chairman, for your comments and I I thank the intention of all the sponsors of these bills for trying to think about ways that we can improve services and programs that benefit America's veterans. And I agree with you. I think some of these bills are are strong in their current form. Others are going to require us to sharpen our pencils, but I'm just really appreciative of this panel's feedback and we look to continuing to engage with you all in the road ahead as we potentially head to marking up some of these bills. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Pappas.
▶ 1:52:20So just to be clear, I understand everyone's intentions are pure. I really do. I also understand that something is broken and in the history when someone lent someone some seashells to buy a cave there was never a VASP program. It just didn't exist in the history of lending and I don't think that you know, a couple guys cooking up some ideas uh during a worldwide pandemic maybe I think they may have missed the mark boldly.
▶ 1:52:48Uh so with that I'd like to thank you all for participating this and I received a number of statements for the record which will be submitted into the record as long as they may meet the submission requirements as you know I'm consent and all members may have five legislative days to revise and extend the remarks and include any extraneous material without objection so ordered. This hearing is now adjourned.