▶ 0:18:12The subcommittee will come to order. I apologize for our late start. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. I want to welcome everyone to today's hearing on sanctuary jurisdictions. Uh without objection, Mr. Bombgartner will be permitted to participate in today's hearing for the purpose of questioning the witnesses if a member yields him time for that purpose and to introduce a witness. Uh, and I'll now uh recognize myself for an opening statement.
▶ 0:18:39Our subcommittee meets today to address the continuing efforts of democratic jurisdictions to nullify federal immigration laws and obstruct law enforcement officials in their vital efforts to uphold these laws. They self-righteously call themselves sanctuary cities, but the sanctuary they offer is to violent criminals who prey upon not only our own citizens, but on immigrant communities themselves.
▶ 0:19:06During the last four years, the Democrats deliberately trafficked into our country more than 8 million unvetted and illegal migrants, including some of the most dangerous, vicious, and violent criminals and cartels in the They did nothing when local law enforcement agencies from across this country warned this committee that foreign criminal cartels and gangs were establishing themselves throughout the country.
▶ 0:19:32The Sinaloa cartel, Trende Aaragua, MS-13 prominent among them. When the grieving families of the victims of their policies were introduced on the House floor, the Democrats sat in stony contemptuous silence. When those same families warned this committee about the devastating effect of these sanctuary policies, Democrats offered platitudes and then implied they were exaggerating the threat.
▶ 0:19:58When local and federal law enforcement officials warned that these policies were endangering law enforcement officers in the communities themselves, the Democrats ridiculed them. Well, the American people finally had enough of the Democrats gaslighting and callous disregard for public safety. For years, the Democrats had told us they were powerless to stop this mass illegal migration without allowing at least 4,000 illegal migrants a day into the country and offering amnesty to those already here.
▶ 0:20:28Yet, on inauguration day, President Trump put the lie to all of that. President Trump ordered our laws to actually be enforced. Within weeks, illegal crossings at the southern border plunged 96%. Migrant caravans and route to this country broke up in Mexico and dispersed. Migrants crossing the perilous Darian Gap dropped 99%.
▶ 0:20:55By February, monthly illegal border crossings plunged from $37,000 in February of 24 to 48 this past February. ICE has now arrested more than 100,000 illegal migrants, most of them with criminal records. With the Border Patrol refocused, gotaways have fallen from 95% from an average of 1,800 a day to 77. Now, the work before us is enormous.
▶ 0:21:26The largest illegal mass migration in recorded history must now be followed by the largest mass repatriation in history. And congressional Republicans stand squarely behind the president. There are still an estimated 600,000 uh on the non-detained docket that were set loose in our country. Right behind them are 1.4 4 million illegal migrants who have already received a final court order of deportation that they will simply ignore.
▶ 0:21:54Now, instead of recognizing and respecting the wish and will of the American people to see their communities made safe again and their borders made secure again, the Democrats continue to obstruct the enforcement of our immigration laws. For the first time since antibbellum days, the Democrats have returned to their doctrine of nullification that recalcitrant jurisdictions can simply defy and nullify federal law. Take Adam County uh Washington for example.
▶ 0:22:23When a rural county sheriff's office had the audacity to cooperate with federal officials to remove dangerous illegals from their streets, the state's woke Democratic attorney general sued them. In Chicago, when lifelong residents begged their city government to protect them, Mayor Brandon Johnson did everything he could to silence them.
▶ 0:22:44In the Denver suburbs, when struggling families appealed to city officials for help as armed Venezuelan gangs took over their apartment complex, the Democrats called them liars. And before this committee, as mothers recounted the senseless, brutal, and entirely preventable rapes and murders of their daughters at the hands of illegal aliens that the Democrats had deliberately released into their communities, our Democratic colleagues put on their best long faces, offered platitudes,
▶ 0:23:14and then advocated for the same policies that created this humanitarian disaster. And they still don't get it. Across the country, Democratic sanctuary jurisdictions are doubling down on these horrific policies. In February, in my home state of California, Governor Gavin Newsome approved $50 million in state funds to be used for quote legal defenses against the Trump administration, half of which is for nonprofits to provide legal aid to aliens and removal proceedings.
▶ 0:23:43Jurisdictions like San Diego and Los Angeles have hardened their sanctuary policies to further thwart the enforcement of our immigration laws. San Francisco leads a lawsuit against the Trump administration to try to prevent the administration from withholding federal funds from sanctuary jurisdictions that are in open defiance of federal law. In December, the Boston City Council unanimously voted in favor of keeping the city's sanctuary status.
▶ 0:24:11Last month, Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson defended the city's sanctuary status at a congressional hearing, repeating discredited and utterly absurd claims that returning criminals into our communities actually make those communities safer. Just today, it's reported that an illegal migrant from El Salvador charged with previously sexually assaulting a 16-year-old boy in Palmdale has now been arrested for the murder of a 13-year-old boy in Lancaster, California.
▶ 0:24:42These democratic sanctuary policies not only require the release of dangerous criminals back into our communities in defiance of federal law. They place law enforcement at much greater risk as officers must now confront these criminals not when they're in custody and unarmed, but rather when they are at large and often armed. The Trump administration is doing everything it can to confront these dangerous policies.
▶ 0:25:08In one of his first executive orders, President Trump directed law enforcement to evaluate and undertake any lawful actions to ensure that so-called sanctuary jurisdictions which seek to interfere with the lawful exercise of federal law enforcement operations do not receive access to federal funds.
▶ 0:25:26In February, President Trump signed an additional executive order to ensure that federal funds to states and localities will not be used to support sanctuary policies or assist illegal immigration. And the administration has sued multiple jurisdictions, including uh Illinois and New York uh for their efforts impeding federal law enforcement. But without new laws, the next Democratic president will undoubtedly reverse these policies.
▶ 0:25:55and once again open our borders to the worst criminal elements on the planet and then shield them under democratic sanctuary policies. We cannot let that happen. Congress must enact stronger laws that will prevent a future Joe Biden from ever again placing our families at risk and that will stop today's Democratic politicians from impeding the enforcement of our immigration and public safety laws.
▶ 0:26:21Today we will hear from several law enforcement and local officials on their perspectives and suggestions as we pursue this work. And I want to welcome them all here today. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. And with that, I yield to the ranking member for her opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to all of our witnesses, including Sheriff Wagner from my home state of Washington. Good to see you here. Um, perhaps the chairman would have this level of concern for the victims of senseless gun violence across this country.
▶ 0:26:5147,000 people who were killed from gun violence just in one year alone. Or perhaps the chairman would have this level of concern for the families of law enforcement that were killed during the January 6th insurrection on the United States capital. Or even the families that are suffering from rising grocery prices and devastated retirement accounts thanks to Donald Trump's chaotic economic policy.
▶ 0:27:19Um, ever since Donald Trump came into office, my colleagues have been very happy to sit back and let him run completely roughshot over our laws. President Trump, Tom H. Homeman, Steven Miller, all led you to believe that this attack on immigrants was supposed to be about criminal immigrants. It was supposed to be about people who threaten public safety.
▶ 0:27:40Despite the fact that research clearly shows that immigrants commit fewer crimes than Americans, they actually led you to believe that they were for the immigrants who did things legally. I can't tell you how many times on this committee I've sat here, as my Republican colleagues say, "We're not against legal immigration. We're for the people who do things legally." They led you to believe that legal immigrants had nothing to worry about people on permanent residence status or legal visas or legal status.
▶ 0:28:09They even led you to believe that somehow getting rid of immigrants would be good for American jobs, that it would bring down costs for the American public, and that that this was all about caring for you versus them, some shady criminal immigrant that might be invading our communities.
▶ 0:28:26Well, as people's 401k accounts plummet with Trump's economic policies, as costs of everything that Americans need to buy keep going up instead of down, the effects of Trump's unconstitutional and unlawful actions against all immigrants are causing fear and havoc in our communities across the country. Let me be clear.
▶ 0:28:48Trump has targeted immigrants who are here lawfully, suspending refugee admissions, a program that, by the way, was once hailed by both Republicans and Democrats and the faith community everywhere as the cornerstone of humanitarian assistance. They are revoking the very programs that created legal pathways for immigrants to enter that effectively brought down the numbers at the border.
▶ 0:29:13And in revoking student visas and green cards of legal permanent residents, many of whom are married to US citizens, they are going after every single immigrant in America, fabricating stories about these immigrants being quote criminals, even deporting them to other countries in violation of judicial orders.
▶ 0:29:33All of this leads us to ask once again, as the Fourth Circuit said earlier this week, in the case of a Maryland father who was quote mistakenly deported to a Salvadorian prison by the Trump administration, if due process is of no moment, what is stopping the government from refusing and removing to return a lawful permanent resident or even a natural-born citizen? That is a quote from the judge in in the decision.
▶ 0:30:03This obsession to weaponize every part of the US government against immigrants is hurting Americans. It's taking away critical resources for crime prevention and counterterrorism, drug interdiction, and other law enforcement at the Department of Justice and Homeland Security investigations. And it's terrorizing immigrants and their US citizen family members, including those with no criminal background and with legal status.
▶ 0:30:30Now, the Trump administration wants to coers state and local law enforcement to help them round up immigrants by threatening to cut off their transportation and law enforcement funds if they don't comply. Even though multiple courts have held that this is illegal and numerous research studies and law enforcement officials have confirmed that keeping the longstanding distinction between federal immigration and law local law enforcement actually helps keep communities safer.
▶ 0:30:58In 2019, my home state of Washington passed the Keep Washington Working Act with bipartisan support. It's a common sense law to ensure that local policy remains focused on public safety of all residents rather than enforcing federal immigration law. We know that when local police act as immigration agents, immigrant communities and their families are less likely to come forward to report a crime when they are a witness or even a victim.
▶ 0:31:24It destroys the trust that police rely on to preserve public safety in communities. Courts have ruled multiple times that states have the right to enact laws like keep wor Washington working act. And despite what you might hear today, the law does allow information sharing with the federal government when necessary for an ongoing criminal investigation or pursuant to a court order or a judicial warrant.
▶ 0:31:50As the Trump administration continues to bully and intimidate the country to bend the knee, we won't be intimidated. And I fully support Attorney General Nick Brown's efforts to ensure that everyone in our state follows our laws. The major city chiefs association has repeatedly reaffirmed that across the country, if law enforcement officers are viewed by members of the immigrant community as colluding or working with immigration law enforcement officers, this would, and this is a quote, result in increased crime
▶ 0:32:20against immigrants in the broader community, create a class of silent victims, and eliminate the potential for assistance from immigrants in solving crimes or preventing future terrorist act acts. The major city's chief's association has also explained that cooperation with the immigrant community is a crucial part of solving crime and preventing further criminal activity with the the entire community, including ensuring protections for victims of domestic violence and sexual assault.
▶ 0:32:50Instead of trashing the rights of every American and destroying communities in our economy, this subcommittee should be holding hearings on why Mahmud Khalil remains detained simply for expressing pro Palestinian views that Donald Trump doesn't like. Or why Alfredo Huarez, a longtime labor leader, has been detained in my state of Washington, apparently simply for organizing farm workers for fairer wages.
▶ 0:33:14or why a lo local roofing company just had a raid where 37 immigrants who are longtime residents in our state building affordable housing for our communities were all picked up and jailed. Or why the administration refuses to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States to reunite with his US citizen wife and his three children even after admitting to mistakenly deporting him to a Salvadorian gulag where he fears for his life. Let's have a hearing, Mr.
▶ 0:33:45Chairman, on the disappearing and the kidnapping of people across this country instead of hurting public safety for all Americans by undermining trust policies of local jurisdictions. I yield back. Lady yields back. The chair is now pleased to recognize the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Jordan, for his opening state. I think the chairman here's how it works.
▶ 0:34:06I sends a detainer to the local sheriff or the local police chief and says, "Hey, if you're going to if you're going to release this migrant who we know is here illegally who's been accused of some crime, if you're going to release him, give us a heads up. Give us for 48 hours before you're going to release him, give us a heads up." And they do that because that protects everyone. It protects law enforcement resources. It protects the public from letting a guy out.
▶ 0:34:29It protects law enforcement when they go to arrest this guy out on the street if they can do it in the in the jail or in the the uh the local facility much better. And frankly, it protects the illegal migrant. And how do we know all that? Because it just happened in Denver not too long ago. Denver's a sanctuary city. I sent him a detainer. Well, they they had this guy in custody for 310 days. I sends him a detainer. The Denver because of their sanctuary city policy says, "No, no, we're not going to give you a notice. We're going to send you this.
▶ 0:34:56We'll give you a notice like one hour before." and they release the guy to the streets. We actually have the form where it says stamp release to and there's a blank they write in the streets and then law enforcement goes to arrest him and guess what happens? Law enforcement officer gets hurt. Took resources, money to do that when they could have just went into jail because they had to send more agents and it hurt the migrant himself because they end up tasing this guy when they could have just kept him in the jail. ICE comes there goes from from the jail to handcuffs you to take him to wherever they're going to take him.
▶ 0:35:24But no, no, we can't do that because we're a sanctuary city. And now it's gotten even worse. Now if you're a sanctuary state, they come after law enforcement like Sheriff Wagner who's trying to do the right thing. Use the resources in a proper way. Protect the migrant, protect law enforcement, protect the public. No, we're a sanctuary city. We're going to release them to the streets even though they had a detainer months before that said just give us a heads up and we'll come down and do it the easy way.
▶ 0:35:51That's why that's why this sanctuary city policy, sanctuary state policy is so darn ridiculous. So I appreciate the chairman having this hearing. I appreciate our witnesses, particularly law enforcement who we have here on the front lines of this every single day. Thank you all for what you do and I yield back. Gentleman yields back. I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Raskin, for his opening statement. Thank you, Miss Chair, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Miss Jipal, and greetings to the witnesses.
▶ 0:36:16Donald Trump's ruinous tariffs and calamitous trade war against the world except for Russia have crashed the stock market and cost American workers and retirees and farmers 11 trillion dollar in one week. One week.
▶ 0:36:36And the Republican majority in the House could stop this nightmare today by exercising our powers over international commerce, but they prefer to own the tariffs and own the trade war. We'll see how well that works out for them going in the future. It's certainly not working out well for the American people now.
▶ 0:36:57desperate to displace attention from this world historical economic debacle and the fact that courts have struck down more than 55 of their lawless unconstitutional executive orders and actions. They invite us to discuss again immigration. So be it. In New York City, Donald Trump's deportation force grabbed green card holder Mammud Khalil for exercising his First Amendment rights in a way that Donald Trump disapproved of.
▶ 0:37:26Now they're trying to deport him as well as other students across the country using a McCarthy era statute that the president's own sister, Judge Maryanne Trump Barry, declared to be quote unconstitutional on its face.
▶ 0:37:40Then they tried to extraleleally deport more than a hundred Venezuelans, shackling them and putting them on a plains bound to a self-proclaimed dictator's infamous mega prison in El Salvador under cover of night based on an 18th century law about wartime authorities called the Alien Enemies Act which palpably did not apply uh to this case because we are at peace time. Congress still has the power to declare war under our constitution, not the president.
▶ 0:38:08Despite their best efforts to keep these removals a secret until it was too late, attorneys for People on the Plane filed a lawsuit and Judge Booseberg, a George W. Bush appointee, issued an order to stop the removals while the planes were hurrying to get in the air. And we're still in the air today. Uh the judge in that case will likely decide whether or not to hold the administration in contempt for deliberately defying the order to turn the removal flights around.
▶ 0:38:36On one of those flights, the administration deported Kilmar Garcia, a Maryland man, a father and husband to an American citizen uh to American citizens um who had a legal status called withholding of removal, a legal immigration status that specifically blocked him from being removed to El Salvador. He won this status after the government falsely accused him of being a gang member and tried to deport him during the first Trump administration in 2019.
▶ 0:39:05Instead, he was able to prove that he posed no threat to public safety and that on the contrary, he had a wellfounded fear of persecution from the violent gangs back in El Salvador. The first Trump administration respected that ruling. But in this second iteration, the administration violated its legal obligation and shipped him off to the Salvador and mega prison to be locked up in a cage with the very gang members whose violence he had escaped.
▶ 0:39:32The administration admitted in court that this deportation, which had absolutely no legal basis, was done in quote, "administrative error, and a judge ordered them to return Mr. Garcia to the United States by midnight this Monday." Rather than bring back the man they admitted they had wrongfully deported, the administration placed the attorney who argued the case on leave and decided to double down and appeal the order.
▶ 0:39:59We've seen the administration conduct indiscriminate raids that round up people with no criminal records, who've lived in our country for decades, who own homes and pay taxes, whose family members are US citizens, and who pose no threat to public safety. US citizens have even been arrested and detained by the deportation force as part of these reckless and lawless raids.
▶ 0:40:20Now, the administration is trying to force state and local law enforcement agencies to use their time, their money, and their resources to participate in these raids. But under article one, Congress has exclusive power over naturalization and immigration. And under the 10th amendment, the federal government has no power to quote commander the machinery, personnel or resources of the state and local government for federal law enforcement purposes.
▶ 0:40:50Uh but the administration is using threats and coercion now to try to force state and local governments and police departments to use their limited resources to arrest and detain students, fathers, mothers, and law-abiding community members.
▶ 0:41:04which means fewer cops, less money, fewer resources to focus on protecting communities from actual violent threats and gangs and the scourge of gun violence and drugs and drunk driving and so on. There's no power in our constitution to do that. Something I thought our colleagues believed in and respected in the system of American federalism. These authoritarian policies have nothing to do with law and order.
▶ 0:41:33They're about intimidation and retaliation against disfavored populations, state and local governments, immigrant communities, students, lawyers who dare oppose the administration in court, and judges who stand up to rule against Trump's continuing reign of unlawful actions. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Without objection, all other opening statements will be included in the record.
▶ 0:42:01We'll now introduce today's witnesses and I'll begin by um deferring to Mr. Bombgartner to introduce our witness. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am uh pleased to introduce the outstanding sheriff of Adams County, uh Mr. Dale Wagner. Uh Sheriff Wagner is respected law enforcement leader who made the decision to cooperate with federal im immigration authorities to protect his community. Adams County is a small rural county in eastern Washington that I have the privilege to represent.
▶ 0:42:31Uh its people are the best of our district and indeed the best of America and it is Dale Wagner in which they have put their trust to enforce laws and protect their community. And for that Dale Wagner now finds himself the target of a legal campaign. Mr. Chairman, this is not an introduction. So if the gentleman from my home state of Washington, my colleague, would like to introduce the sheriff, he's welcome to do that, but he is not on this committee and he's solely here for the purpose of introducing the sheriff. Points well taken. Thank you, Pamil.
▶ 0:43:01We'll get to it. You start now, the target of a is is a target. Chairman, the gentleman is not complying with your order. Will suspend. The general lady is correct in her point of order. The uh unanimous consent covers an introduction without editorial Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Proceed in For what purpose is the gentleman rise? Mr. Burner question. Uh no, not at this moment in the proceeding.
▶ 0:43:30He had me all interested in this county. Again, the gentleman is recognized to make an introduction. That is what is in order at this time. I'll I'll keep it brief, Mr. Chairman. Thank We're very pleased that uh Adams County Sheriff Dale Wagner is here and I would just also point out we have eight outstanding sheriffs in the state of Washington dealing with the fentanel scourge here with us as well today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Our other witnesses uh are Mrs. Danielle Carter Williams.
▶ 0:43:57Uh Miss Carter Williams is a Chicago resident and fitness trainer who advocates for Chicago residents. She serves as vice president of Chicago Flips Red, a grassroots movement dedicated to empowering communities across Chicago to embrace bold conservative solutions for a brighter future. Our third witness is uh Mr. Neil Franklin. Major Franklin retired from law enforcement after a combined total of 34 years in the Baltimore and Maryland State Police Departments.
▶ 0:44:25He is currently the executive director of the Law Enforcement Action Partnership. And finally, we have Mr. R.J. Hman. Mr. Mr. Halman is president of the national immigration center for enforcement. He's also a founder of the boutique firm Striker Strategies and is a visiting fellow at the Heritage Foundation's Border Security and Immigration Center. He's worked in immigration enforcement policy for more than a decade, including at the Federation for American Reform. Uh I want to welcome all of our witnesses today.
▶ 0:44:55Thank them for appearing. We'll begin by swearing you in. So, would you please rise and raise your right hand? Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and beliefs. So, help you God. Uh, let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Thank you.
▶ 0:45:19Uh, please know that your written testimony will be entered in the record in its entirety and uh, accordingly, we'd ask that you summarize your uh, oral testimony in five minutes. Uh, and we will begin uh with Sheriff Wagner. Well, thank you very much for your time. Good morning. My name is Sheriff Dale Wagner and I have dedicated my career to serving the people of Washington State.
▶ 0:45:42Law enforcement today faces unprecedented challenges, many of which stem from political agendas rather than public safety concerns. One of the most pressing issues in this conflict between Washington state uh keep Washington working act and sanctuary policies and federal immigration laws. A situation that places all sheriffs in our state uh in an impossible position.
▶ 0:46:07Recently, Adams County became the target of a lawsuit of Washington State Attorney General alleging violations of keep Washington working act or sanctuary policies. This lawsuit is not about justice or protecting communities. It's about enforcing a political agenda that restricts law enforcement's ability to cooperate with federal authorities. Adams County is a hardworking community built on agriculture, perseverance, and a strong family values.
▶ 0:46:34Spanning approximately 1925 square miles in eastern Washington, our county is home to far farmers, ranchers, and business owners who contribute daily to our state's economy. The people of Adams County are resilient and committed to maintaining a safe and prosperous home for future and family. Our office operations by principle of service above self and we police who we love. Those are our friends and our family and our neighbors.
▶ 0:47:05These sanctuary policies prohibit law enforcement from working with federal immigration agencies such as ICE and Border Patrol. Even when individuals in custody have committed serious crimes beyond immigration violations, we are barred from notifying federal agencies or authorities upon their release. The result, repeat offenders, drug traffickers, and violent criminals, and they remain in our communities instead of facing appropriate legal action.
▶ 0:47:32While prominent proponents claim sanctuary policies protect vulnerable populations, they also shield repeat offenders who exploit the system. Criminal or organizations including drug cartels, human traffickers take advantage of these policies knowing they face minimal minimal risk of deportation even when caught committing additional crimes. These sanctuary policies create confusion and fear among law-abiding cit residents and citizens.
▶ 0:48:00The public is misled into believing local law enforcement arrests people solely based on immigration status. This is not true. It's not true in my county. Our office, like others across the state, do not arrest individuals based on immigration status. Yet, the policies create barriers that prevent victims and witnesses from reporting crimes, fearing potential of immigration consequences they do not fully understand. This makes it harder for law enforcement to investigate crimes and protect the community.
▶ 0:48:31Sheriffs are sworn to uphold the law and protect public safety. However, sanctuary policies place us in an in a legal bind, forcing us to navigate conflicting state and federal laws. We must follow the state mandate that contradicts federal law, compromising our ability ability to enforce laws effectively. Instead of focusing on crime prevention, we are caught in the unnecessary legal battles that are wasting tax dollars and divert resources from critical public safety e efforts.
▶ 0:49:01When law enforcement cannot address repeat criminal activity effectively, families, businesses, and their entire communities suffer. Hardworking residents should not have to live in fear of criminals who exploit policies designed to shield them from accountability. Public safety is a must and our priority, not political agendas.
▶ 0:49:22Rather than allowing law enforcement agencies to work at local, state, and federal levels, san together, sanctuary policies force us to rearrest individuals who have who could have been transferred to federal custody. This strains our jails, waste tax money, and puts residents unne at unnecessary risk. The solution is not to pit state and federal authorities against one another, but to ensure public safety remains a top priority for everyone.
▶ 0:49:49Law enforcement should be allowed to do its job without political interference. We must defend the constitutional authority of sheriffs and enforce the laws that we protect our citizens with. We advocate for policies that support law enforcement effort rather than hinder them. Continue hiring and training the best deputies and police officers to uphold the highest standard of professionalism and integrity.
▶ 0:50:13Work with local, state, and federal law enforcement and community partners to maintain safe neighborhoods and prioritize security over politics. The people of Adams County have always supported law enforcement, and we are proud to serve our community that values law and order. Despite these challenges, we remain steadfast in our mission to serve and protect. We will not back down from our responsibility to uphold the law and keep our residents safe. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your testimony.
▶ 0:50:43Uh our next witness is Major Franklin. You may begin. Good morning, Chairman Clint. Honorable committee members, thank you for allowing me to testify today. My name is Major Neil Franklin. I am retired.
▶ 0:51:03I'm here today representing myself, having served a 34-year law enforcement career in the Baltimore Police Department and the Maryland State Police, as well as representing the Law Enforcement Action Partnership LEAP, where I was the executive director for an additional 10 years post retirement. Lieutenant Diane Goldstein is now the current executive director.
▶ 0:51:27LEAP is a nonprofit law enforcement, I'm sorry, law nonprofit group of police prosecutors, judges, other criminal justice professionals who speak from firsthand experience. Our mission is to make communities safer by focusing law enforcement resources on the greatest threats to public safety and working toward improving police community relations.
▶ 0:51:49While we strongly believe that effective border pol border security is imperative to public safety, we adamantly oppose any proposals that will push sanctuary cities and mandate state and local law enforcement to play a significant role in enforcement of federal immigration law.
▶ 0:52:07We believe routine civil immigration enforcement by local officers would harm public safety by eroding police community trust and diverting law enforcement resources away from tackling more serious crime. Ordering state and local law enforcement to act as ICE agents with deeply damaged police community trust that we depend upon to do our jobs effectively across policing.
▶ 0:52:34The research underscores that having trust from the people we serve directly impacts public safety. Police are only as strong as the relationships we have with the public. We can only prevent, detect, and solve crimes if witnesses and victims are willing to come forward to report criminal activity and work with us to address it.
▶ 0:52:54A report on Latino perceptions of police found that 44% of Latinos hesitate to report crime to police for fear that it could lead to investigations into immigration status of their family or community members, even if they are legal citizens.
▶ 0:53:11Compelling local police to enforce federal immigration law would only further damage community trust, making victims, witnesses, and other residents less likely to report crimes or provide critical information to help us solve them. Forcing local law enforcement to act as federal immigration agents would also divert their focus away from the greatest threats of public safety.
▶ 0:53:36Local law enforcement should not be forced to dedicate precious time and resources toward burdensome information sharing and detainer requirements instead of solving serious crime. It would lead to countless people being detained for extended periods solely based upon their immigration status, wasting limited jail space that should be reserved for those who pose the most serious threats to public safety.
▶ 0:54:00Proposed bans to sanctuary cities also pose constitutional and civil liabilities for local police departments and jails, exposing them to costly lawsuits that could further drain their already stretched resources. Many cities across the country have been forced to pay massive settlements for illegally holding people based upon requested ICE detainers, a practice that would become more frequent as police hope to avoid cuts to essential federal programs in their communities.
▶ 0:54:29For example, New York City recently agreed to a $92.5 million dollar settlement stemming from a lawsuit claiming authorities had detained 20,000 people for days, weeks, even months after their scheduled release date due to ICE detainer request.
▶ 0:54:47The proposed act would put state and local governments in an impossible position of deciding between risking cuts to essential federal programs or inviting potential legal action for violating the civil rights of their communities community members. Furthermore, one solution does not fit all. Cities and towns are unique with very different needs requiring different solutions for various problems.
▶ 0:55:14Each community should be free to design its own strategies absent sanctions of any kind from from the federal government. We are deeply concerned to see the federal government considering blocking federal funds through sanctuary jurisdictions and mandating local law enforcement to act as ICE agents.
▶ 0:55:34Forcing local police to act as federal immigration agents would harm public safety by eroding community trust and diverting critical resources away from more serious crime. Thanks again for having me. Thank you for your testimony. We'll next hear from Miss Carter Thank you. Good morning, chairman and esteemed members of the subcommittee. And thank you to President Donald J.
▶ 0:56:04Trump, the people's president, for giving Chicago Flips Red our first platform, and to the subcommittee for the opportunity to speak truth in the people's house. We proudly stand with our president to bring his message to the black American community and expose the lies pushed by the Democrat party and the fake news media.
▶ 0:56:32We are here to to confront the reality of sanctuary cities. Despite the word sanctuaries, these cities are anything but safe. Chicago has claimed the title for years and now we're drowning in the consequences. Lifelong residents are pushed aside. Schools are overcrowded. Crime is out of control and affordable housing is vanishing.
▶ 0:57:00This crisis exploded under Biden and were worsened by the reckless agendadriven leadership of Lorie Lightoot and Brandon Johnson. They didn't just ignore the collapse, they fueled it.
▶ 0:57:17In December 2023 23, a few aldermans tried to give us a voice, but the mayor and his allies used systematic stunts to block the vote on the nonbinding sanctuary city referendum, silencing Chicagoans and stripping us of our right to choose.
▶ 0:57:41Every elected official swears an oath to serve their constituents and uphold the Constitution. Brandon Johnson has failed. He's dismissed that oath in his obsession with keeping Chicago a sanctuary for illegal aliens.
▶ 0:57:59He's driven over He's driven our city into a billion dollar deficit, handed out shady nonbid contracts, and funnel over $6 million into services for illegal aliens. That's why we demand a full forensic audit focused on migrant related spending. This isn't mismanagements. It's organized looting of taxpayer dollars.
▶ 0:58:29Shot Spotter, a lifesaving gunshot detection tool, is gone. High Park now bears a permanent 720 bid shelter as illegal alien shelters multiply all over our city. Tax increment financing known as Tiff Tiff meant to revive struggling areas are being embezzled.
▶ 0:58:52Our kids aren't learning to read while the city teachers cater to non-English speakers. These are deliberate acts of neglect justified by Chicago's sanctuary city status. Lori Lightoot licked the fuse with executive orders and DEI Johnson poured gasoline on the fire. Field houses has been taken.
▶ 0:59:18police stations overrun with illegal aliens and tents and I on the floors leaving officers demoralized. My husband, a retired CPD officer, saw it all. Violence, disease, measel and tuberculosis outbreak, prostitution, and bed bugs that reached our home. Since 2025, over 51,000 illegal aliens have flooded into Chicago.
▶ 0:59:48The city's answer blend migrant and homeless shelters under the one system initiative and hope no one notice. Homelessness has jumped by 207% as 2100 bids go to illegal aliens. When state funding ends in 2025, corrupt insiders will pass the contracts among themselves. This isn't policies, it's rakateeering.
▶ 1:00:18My husband and I are taxpaying business owners. We did everything right. We invested in the opportunity zone. Thank you, President Trump. Applied for G grants and we were denied. Yet 140,000 illegal alienun businesses were funded without question. Lawabiding citizens are being replaced to serve a political machine.
▶ 1:00:47MS13 trendy Ara, they're here. Their graffiti marks our neighborhoods. New gangs, the Venezuelan Disciple is forming in our neighborhoods. One shelter gets 20 to 30 police calls daily. Drug use, harassment, lording, and violence have turned parts, sidewalks, and porches into no go zones. This isn't immigration. This is an invasion.
▶ 1:01:16Sanctuary cities do not protect us. They abandon us. The citizens of Chicago, we demand a full forensic audit of every dollar tied. Mr. Carter Walers, very much appreciate your testimony, but we have to limit it to five minutes, but you'll have an opportunity to expand on those remarks during the question period. So, appreciate your testimony. Okay. And uh we'll uh finish with Mr. R.J. Halman.
▶ 1:01:47Uh, Chairman Mcclintok, Ranking Member Gyaul, and esteemed members of this subcommittee. I come before you today to discuss a crisis that threatens the very foundation of our great nation. A crisis that's been born of reckless policies that jeopardize the safety of our communities and shred the integrity of our immigration system. You know, the sacred duty of any government is to shield its law- abiding citizens from harm.
▶ 1:02:13It's the bedrock of why we submit to governance, why we uphold the laws that bind us together. We cherish our families, our neighbors, our way of life, and we trust that the law will stand as our shield, a unifying force that levels the field for all. That's what sets America apart, our reverence for the rule of law. So profound that we demand every aspiring citizen to swear an oath steeped in its honor. But that system is betrayed to many of our people.
▶ 1:02:40It's not some abstract debate about legal nuance or political gamesmanship. It's talking the safety and security of our nation. We face a stark reality right now, even with President Trump in office. There are millions of illegal aliens roaming free among us. Some are on ICE radar. 98% aren't. They're nearly all in the shadows. There's criminals, those with final orders of removal who went through due process, 1.4 million of them. And then there's the unknown.
▶ 1:03:09And then worse, you have hundreds of so-called sanctuaries. They roll out the red carpet for these lawb breakakers while turning their backs on the honest citizens that they're sworn to protect. You know what strikes me is the silence from one party up here on Capitol Hill. There's no demand for real enforcement. Instead, we're drowned in a chorus of tired slogans and distractions like tattoo motives. You know, chanted as like it could offset illegality. Well, it can't.
▶ 1:03:38Amnesty for all, no risk, no consequences. That seems to be the agenda. You know, at the same time, a lot of folks rail against empowering state and local police to aid federal efforts. You know, twisting logic into knots. These are the same officers that we trust to hunt murderers, rapist, traffickers, traffickers, but if you inject immigration status into it, suddenly they're unfit.
▶ 1:04:04Their competence and integrity are repeatedly questioned again unless they are defying federal law outright. Then of course in sanctuary jurisdictions everything they do is cheered or enabled. And that brings us to the deceptive term as well. Sanctuary jurisdictions. It sounds noble, doesn't it? A haven, a refuge. But for whom? Not our sons and daughters. It though left vulnerable due to them. Our communities are then torn apart.
▶ 1:04:34These sanctuaries shield the lawless, not the lawful. And that betrayal cuts to the core of what America must stand against. The American people spoke loud and clear in November. It's time for Congress to wake up, shift into the President Trump's gear, and act decisively. End sanctuary cities for good and launch mass deportations now.
▶ 1:04:56Every day we delay, we roll the dice on the next preventable tragedy, the next innocent life lost to a criminal alien that we could have deported. And lastly, just consider the numbers that are pretty much hot off the press. From October 1st, uh, 2022 to February 6, 2025, more than 25,000 detainers were declined by sanctuary jails. More than 1,400 instances. The jails failed to give uh adequate notification to ICE to take custody of the aliens.
▶ 1:05:27You see it at more than half of the declined detainers were prisons in California, just where we saw a crime where the child's body was found 10 minutes from where I grew up. When's enough enough? Congress needs to act. Give ICE the resources to act in accordance with the law. Deliver on an electoral mandate. Secure American communities. And then it's time for statutory changes to make sure these changes last and um our system gets ramped up in terms of integrity. I yield back.
▶ 1:05:58Thank you for your testimony. We'll now proceed with questions under the fiveminute rule and we'll begin with Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the witnesses for being here today. I've read all of your statements that you've submitted and I've been listening intently to your testimony. Um Mr. Mr. Hman, I just want to confirm Cook County Jail in Illinois uh from October 1st, 2022 to February 6, 2025 released more than 1,000 criminal aliens into their community. Correct. That accurate? Yep.
▶ 1:06:27And um just want to confirm this. Mr. Franklin, don't I don't want to take this out of context. He said compelling le local police to enforce federal immigration law would only further damage community trust. Is that an accurate state reflection? I'm reading from your uh statement. Is that accurate? Yes. Um depending upon the jurisdiction and and what those unique circumstances might be for that particular city or town. And m Miss Ms.
▶ 1:06:54Carter Walters in Chicago where they've released over a three-year period more than a thousand um uh criminals back into your community. Did that make you feel safer as a citizen? No. Did it make your your community feel safer? No. And did that uh provide actual safety when you saw MS-13 train to Ara uh roaming the streets there? No. So you've demanded uh a full forensic audit of every dollar tied to to migrant shelters, right?
▶ 1:07:24Yes. And a freeze on the 92 bill $2 million budget until full reviews are completed. Yes, sir. And uh you want the the accountability and community input? Yes, sir. and a federal in investigation into potential corruption and potentially if there is corruption, you want prosecutions. Is that right? Yes.
▶ 1:07:44And most importantly, you want an end to sanctuary policies that you feel uh disadvantages you guys as citizens of of Chicago visav um illegal aliens who are being released into your community. We want to end cities and go to you now, Sheriff. Thank you, Sheriff Wagner.
▶ 1:08:04So, um, you outline and give, uh, some examples of some horrific, uh, instances in your own county. Um, particularly shocking case, 2021 in Athell. Can you briefly, I mean briefly, recount that for us? Yeah. In 2021, we had an incident of an illegal alien uh, that took the life of a mother and a daughter.
▶ 1:08:30uh the daughter being a special needs uh female that uh had the the capacity of a five a 5-year-old and they did it in a very horrific way by dismembering the bodies and leaving them in a trunk of a vehicle. How did that impact your community? That was a huge impact in our community. How so? Well, any any horrific crime, no matter who's involved, is is going to impact the community.
▶ 1:08:55Um, and I think that the the situation that we were faced with is the limited resources everyone keeps talking about here. I'm a department of 18 people and that includes myself and my under sheriff that work we're working um I'm not a politician uh by I guess my my job I am but we actually get out and do the work and uh this situation you imply that we don't get out and do the work which is fair that's fair share. I'm not I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that.
▶ 1:09:23But uh but the reality is that I mean it affects the community because we are a small community, a small farming community of all nationalities and we uh are very close to each other and we we care about each other very much. In your in your recommendations, you talk about um allowing you to uh enforce the law and that might mean that you that you actually cooperate with federal uh officials.
▶ 1:09:49So, if I understand your keep keep a Washington working uh law, that's the the statute there. Um, are you allowed to hold someone with an ICE detainer? Uh, we are not. Are you allowed to transfer someone uh if ICE requests that you transfer them to their custody? Where according to the KWW? No.
▶ 1:10:10So, so the state law actually directly, not not indirectly, not impliedly, it actually directly um defies federal law. Federal statute. Uh that's what I understand. Yes. Yeah. Because federal statute says if you get a detainer, you're supposed to hold. Yeah. You're supposed to hold. That's what federal law says. And you can't do that there. Correct. How does that uh impact the safety of your community? Well, ours is impacted in a great way because one, my jail has been closed for three years.
▶ 1:10:39And I find that ironic in this situation as well, but uh that the it impacts us in a great in a great way because like uh I believe it was Mr. Jordan was explaining, putting people out onto the street and having them get caught again becomes a bigger problem. We're not arresting on immigration status. We're putting people in jail for crimes they committed in our community.
▶ 1:11:01And then ICE because of public records that are available and things like that, they have the ability to find out who's in our in our custody and where they are and when they're released and all those kind of things. Uh and they are basically released to their custody in the opposite way similar to to Denver in most cases. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is expired. Uh Miss Jipal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:11:26As I said in my opening, there are a lot of reasons why states and localities have adopted policies to leave immigration enforcement to federal government where it belongs. For some, it's about fostering trust with local communities. When immigrant communities know that calling 911 won't result in deportation for themselves or a family member, they're actually more willing to report and help law enforcement solve crimes, which makes all of us safer. For others, it's an important factor is legal liability.
▶ 1:11:55Courts all over the country, just to counter what my uh good colleague from Arizona said, have ruled that when local law enforcement complies with civil immigration detainer requests, and to be clear, an immigration detainer is a request and continues to detain someone pursuant to a detainer when they otherwise would have been released, it's actually an unlawful detention and it's a violation of the Fourth Amendment.
▶ 1:12:23So, Sheriff Wagner, I want to thank you again for being here and for the work that you do to support your community. And I I believe you when you say you want to keep all of your residents in Adam County safe. Um, you can just give me simple yes or nos to this.
▶ 1:12:36At any time 2019, has the Adams County Sheriff's Office given the federal government personal information of any Adams County residents like fingerprints, data, uh, dates of birth, home addresses, or driver's license numbers? Just turn your mic on, sheriff. Thank you. We do a program called Stone Garden. So, just a yes or no is fine. Do you do you give it? It's simple question.
▶ 1:13:06Do you give the federal government personal information of Adams County residents like fingerprints, dates of birth, home addresses, and driver's license number? I'm not aware of fingerprints, but I do believe we give uh public information to those people. Yes. And how often has your office done that? It depends on what you're talking about. You want yes and no answers or do you want me to explain? Well, in this one, I'm asking you if you have numbers numbers for that if you can give.
▶ 1:13:31I don't have numbers, but we do a stone garden program through the uh border patrol which is funded through the state as well. Okay. And at any time since 2019, has the Adams County Sheriff's Office held people beyond their release date in order to facilitate their pickup by civil immigration enforcement officers? Not that I'm aware of. So, you're following the Keep Washington Working Act in in that way. And that's and that's uh good to hear.
▶ 1:13:59Um, I want to go on to some questions for Major Franklin. Let me turn to you. One of the studies that I submitted found that mandatory information sharing between local police and ICE led to a 16% increase in crime against Hispanics. And let me be clear, that 16% increase means 1.3 million more crimes.
▶ 1:14:23Can you help us understand this statistic and why jurisdictions with community trust policies in place experience less crime and why their residents feel safer? Yes. Um so to be effective and a good part of my career was in criminal investigation for quite a few years and um we first need to get people to report crimes before we can even begin to investigate them.
▶ 1:14:51And when there's no trust between the police and the community, many people will not even report crimes. And this isn't hasn't just become evident with the immigrant community. I grew up in West Baltimore and I experienced times in my neighborhood where we really had trust issues. Many of my friends, many people that I knew would not even report the crime of a robbery, of being a victim of a crime. And then we need witnesses.
▶ 1:15:21Once we begin to investigate a crime, we need witnesses. So you have to have that trust that we the police are going to do the right thing. And in the immigrant community, if they believe, just believe that their immigration status is going to be questioned or maybe that of another family member or that of a community member which they are friends with, they're not going to cooperate with us. We've seen this time and time again.
▶ 1:15:47But when you can establish that trust, you see, we cannot be effective in solving crimes. And most of the people who commit the violence is a very small number, right? If we can get them, if we can focus on them, get them convicted, charge convicted, then we then we have a great chance of reducing crime. I just have a few seconds left here, but um jurisdictions that adopted sanctuary policies experienced a 52 to 62% reduction in the domestic homicide rate for Hispanic women.
▶ 1:16:16Does that track with your experience as a law enforcement officer in jurisdictions with those policies? Yes. Uh as as creating the first domestic violence unit in the Maryland State Police, as being the president of Turnaround Incorporated, which was about uh domestic violence in Baltimore City shelter services and and and counseling services. Yes, those numbers are very familiar to me. And uh there's a great report out expired. Well, usually the witness can answer the finish answer. U Mr. Tiffany.
▶ 1:16:46Thank you, Mr. He did answer. The answer was yes. It was a yes or no question and he added quite a bit more. Mr. Strong Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Major Franklin, uh, there's an organization or publication, safeome.org. They listed Baltimore as the deadliest large city. Are you aware of that? I'm not aware of that report or Yeah, they just last year was in 2024. It just uh surpassed Memphis and Detroit. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:17:14Holman, um, when a detainer has been issued, isn't that as a result of someone committing a ICS is reaching out to them to get them in custody and they're on the radar likely because a crime was committed. That's why they're in that local jail. So, federal money flows to jurisdictions around the United States at taxpayers expense um to try to fight crime.
▶ 1:17:42Um, should taxpayers continue to fund sanctuary jurisdictions? No, not at all. If you are in defiance of federal law and you're not working with federal law enforcement, you shouldn't receive a darn dime. Again, there's a lot of cooperative jurisdictions out there um under President Trump. The the actual the 287G um agreements that we're seeing, kind of the opposite of a sanctuary jurisdiction, has skyrocketed since President Trump took office.
▶ 1:18:07those jurisdictions should be uh rewarded and helped for acting in accordance uh with federal law. Should federal facilities be moved out of jurisdictions that are sanctuary pol uh cities? I if you're talking detention facilities or something like that a lot of them let me give you an example and I'm going to ask uh Mr. chairman to introduce this letter I sent to Doge um would ask unanimous consent to enter that letter. But anyhow, I sent a letter SBA is moving facilities out of Boston, which is sanctuary city.
▶ 1:18:37And I sent a letter to Doge saying, "Would you look into Dayne County, Wisconsin, which is Madison? Would you look into moving facilities out of there if they're going to continue to be a sanctuary uh sanctuary county?" Um do you think that's appropriate? Absolutely. Absolutely. Sheriff.
▶ 1:18:58Um, so I mentioned Dne County, Wisconsin, and there was a situation where a gang member from Venez Venezuela, Trend Deagua, uh, gang member. He was uh, charged with false imprisonment and battery in Dayne County last year. Went on to Prairie Dashene, Wisconsin, which is about 100 miles from Madison to Prairie Dashene, Wisconsin over on the Mississippi River.
▶ 1:19:22And this gang member was charged with domestic violence, sexual assault, child abuse, and strangulation by the Prairie Dashene um uh uh police department. Does it surprise you that another community is affected when there is a sanctuary community that is not honoring ICE detainers? No. Does it make it more dangerous for people throughout the region, not just let's use this example of Dayne County, Wisconsin.
▶ 1:19:51Does it make it more dangerous for people throughout a region as a result of having these sanctuary I think like like the gentleman over here said earlier, I think every every situation is different. Every location is different. Every circumstance is different, but I do think the policies matter and the policies that we're faced with in sanctuary policy is it's it's too hampering for the situation that we're dealing with on the ground. Miss Carter Walters, so you know that Wisconsin is just north of you in Chicago.
▶ 1:20:22Um, and I just cited Prairie Dasheen, Wisconsin is a 100 miles from Madison, Wisconsin. And Kenosha, Wisconsin is only 64 miles uh north of Chicago. Should people in Wisconsin be concerned about the sanctuary policies that are in Chicago? Exactly. because they don't just stay in Chicago, they're in Indiana, they go they're all in the uh suburbs. So, yes, they definitely should be uh afraid.
▶ 1:20:51Why in the world do civic leaders like uh Mayor Johnson want to advance policies like this that not only make their own city less safe but the entire region less safe because we believe that that's how they're uh funneling money and stealing our tax dollars.
▶ 1:21:10So that's why we are demanding a forensic audit on how the uh a breakdown of how those funds were allocated because we have yet received anything of a breakdown to show how our tax dollars were spent. So yes, we believe that's how they're funding the money and that's why we are asking for a forensic audit and we want arrests being made. M uh Mr.
▶ 1:21:34Chairman, I think this these witnesses make the the case so well that it is not just the sanctuary community that is being affected by these policies that they are implementing. It's an entire region. Most of the people of Wisconsin are affected as a result of what's going on in Dayne County, Wisconsin and Chicago, Illinois. It is time for this to stop and there needs to be consequences for what is going on with these sanctuary communities. I yield back. Gentleman's time is expired. Mr. Raskin.
▶ 1:22:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Major Franklin, you're famous in Maryland. Uh, your career uh, in law enforcement um, has involved fighting violent gangs, drug traffickers, illegal gun trafficking from other states that have weaker laws than Maryland. Um and um but you've also studied law enforcement and worked on it not just at the micro level but at the macro level.
▶ 1:22:33I I wonder if you could expl explain how this works. My colleagues are talking about horrific gruesome cases of undocumented people who engage in murder or rape serious crimes like that. Um, if someone is engaged in a crime like that and they have a warrant for the person's arrest and they bring it to a local or state official who's got control over their custody if they're in their custody for another reason, doesn't the local government have to cooperate
▶ 1:23:04with that warrant and turn that person over immediately to the federal authorities? Yes. Uh, on a warrant, yes, we do. Uh I I don't know one case where we have not done so with a warrant. Yeah, I I was searching. I couldn't find a single case where there was any local government that did not cooperate with uh a warrant that was uh to demand turning over uh the the body of a person uh who' engaged in a serious crime.
▶ 1:23:34In fact, I I saw an article um about uh President Trump um who you know has been touting his ICE arrests. Half of them were people who were in local uh custody and he asked for them to be turned over. They were being held for serious crimes or other kinds of crimes and then they were deported and he got them uh you know based on based on a warrant.
▶ 1:24:00So, if we're not talking about a warrant situation, right, then um I I come back to my puzzlement about why my colleagues who control the US Congress right now are not engaged in trying to come up with a comprehensive immigration reform package. I mean, I'll give you an example.
▶ 1:24:21At the end of the last Congress, uh we had a bipartisan deal on toughening up the border with more officers, more patrols, more uh asylum judges, lots of new technology. The the most the the most conservative members of the US Senate on the Republican side were championing it, advancing it. It had bipartisan support in the Senate.
▶ 1:24:46And then Donald Trump tanked it basically saying for political reasons he didn't want it. He did not want a comprehensive immigration border solution. He wanted a problem to run against. And I see a lot of that in today's discussion.
▶ 1:25:02It's amazing to me that rather than engage in the hard work, maybe not even so hard anymore, of coming up with a bipartisan immigration solution, we would rather be beating up on local governments for not doing the job of the federal government.
▶ 1:25:18Now, but let's say that that someone thought, okay, well, we really should commandeer the resources, the personnel, uh the machinery of the local governments, even though it's against the constitution and against the 10th amendment. But let's say they think that and they want to use law enforcement not to turn over murderers and rapists and so on, but for routine immigration enforcement. All right.
▶ 1:25:42How would that work if say they to, you know, a particular city or county and say the vast majority of uh the undocumented people here we know are work are working in hotels or agriculture on farms or the construction sector?
▶ 1:26:02Could uh a city have the resources to say we're going to send in raids of police on construction sites, on farms, in hotels to arrest all of these people that we think are here illegally. Um we don't have the resources for that. We don't have the people for that. We're we're we're struggling to find people to hire people and we just don't have the resources. We have calls waiting. We're call hopping, you know, one day after next. It's the federal government's got a lot of money.
▶ 1:26:29We spend millions and millions of dollars just flying Donald Trump down to Florida to Mara Lago to go play golf while he's crashing the stock market. Why doesn't the federal government spend that money? A locality might say the cities are pretty hard up for money, right? They don't want to be invading all of the hotels and construction sites to go and look for undocumented workers. Um I mean, do you think that's a fair request to put on the localities? It's No, it's not.
▶ 1:26:55Um well uh seems to me that the problem here is we have people not doing their jobs in Washington and they want to blame local governments and put the pressure on them. I yield back to you Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Gentleman yields back. Chairman Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sheriff, um are you familiar with the Department of Homeland Security immigration detainer notice of action form? You familiar with these forms? I've heard of them. Yes. Yeah. Okay.
▶ 1:27:22and and and these forms down about halfway down the page, it says, "It is therefore requested that you, this is going to local law enforcement, request that you notify DHS as early as practical, at least 48 hours if possible, before the alien in your custody is released." All right. Is that is that partisan or is that just common sense? It depends on who you ask, but it is the ranking member said we got we need to function in a in a in a bipartisan way. I don't think that's partisan.
▶ 1:27:49That's just saying, "Hey, you got a bad guy, someone who's been charged with crime in your possession. He's also an illegal migrant. Can you give us a 48 hours heads up before you release him to the streets?" Sure, that makes sense to me, right? I don't I don't think that's partisan. That just common sense. Mr. Halman, are you familiar how this form this form works that this detainer process is supposed to work? Yes. All right. The next line says, "Maintain custody of the alien for a period not to exceed 48 hours beyond the time." Again, this is we're requesting you do. They're not demanding.
▶ 1:28:18We're just requesting you help us out. Law enforcement working with other law enforcement to protect the safety of law enforcement and of course the public at large beyond the time when he or she would otherwise have been released from your custody to allow DHS to assume custody. Again, that seems like common sense to me. But sanctuary policies prevent these two requests from taking place. Is that right? If you're a sanctuary state, sanctuary city, you don't comply with these. You may give them like a we're going to give you a 10-minute notice. We're going to release them and then tell you we already released them.
▶ 1:28:46And that's how it works in these sanctuary cities, in these sanctuary states. Is that right, Mr. Hman? That's correct, too. It's even interesting, too, under the Biden administration, you have a lot of um state and local law enforcement who think that they're not going to comply with ICE based on their experiences under the Biden administration. ICE, they ICE had policies in place that made it so hard for enforcement and removal officers to actually work with these jails. They made it they made it next to impossible.
▶ 1:29:14You have all these jails that think, "Oh, I don't know if I'm the comply. I may get penalized if a state puts an aggressive uh restriction on that. But everything is going to be streamlined. They want to comply. It will be a good process." Yeah. Let's put up on the screen. Are you familiar with the name Abraham Gonzalez? Mr. Halman, do you know this guy? Abraham Gonzalez? I do not. Okay. This guy was released this this this year, February 28th, 25. He was released. Look at Look at what the sheriff's department put here. This is a ICE notification. They put the stamp on there. being released to the streets.
▶ 1:29:44Now, this guy had been in custody for 345 days. And I had sent this very form asking, "Hey, can you give us a 48 hour heads up before this guy who was charged with aggravated assault, charged with stealing an automobile, charged with menacing, can you just give us a heads up?" And guess what Denver, Sanctuary City Denver did? They called him one hour before and ICE couldn't get there and they released this guy to the streets as they stamped on the form. Now, what I find interesting, can we put that back up again?
▶ 1:30:13What I find interesting is under the section flag, see it over there on the right hand side, it says he's cleared. But then look what it says, violent to staff. So, the very people who released him to the streets knew this guy. He'd been charged again with aggravated assault, stealing a car, but he'd also been violent to the very people in the jail who were holding him. And they still wouldn't give notice to ICE. And then, as I said in my opening statement, this guy is released to the streets. ICE goes out to arrest him. Officer gets hurt.
▶ 1:30:43They had to tase the guy so the migrant gets hurt. Tell me how that is not Tell me why that we we should have that kind of policy happen. Mr. Halman. Well, we shouldn't. It doesn't keep our communities safer in any sense. And again, what they're trying to do here is they say, "Hey, at least we tried an hour heads up or whatever." But how can they look at that man to release him on the streets knowing the crimes that have been committed, knowing that risk?
▶ 1:31:07How can they say, "Hey, we'll see you later." as he goes off and could potentially commit another crime down the line. I mean, is it worth it to instill trust with the immigrant community? How about, you know, the the citizens and how about the harm that they could face due to the unknown of releasing a dangerous criminal alien to the streets? They knew this guy had a propensity to be violent to law enforcement because he had done it in their very jail. And they can't give federal law enforcement a heads up. Sheriff Wagner, would you have given him a heads up?
▶ 1:31:38I think in that circumstance I would. Yeah, you certainly would. But for people who do what you would do, you're now getting sued for that, right? Your attorney general's coming after you. Yeah. And and as the gentleman over here said, you know, we should stay out of local business, right? And so here I am with the state attorney coming down on me for trying to juggle the whole mess because that's how law enforcement you you're supposed to work with other law enforcement when you can not violate the constitution.
▶ 1:32:05Just be in good common sense way to make sure people are safe, law enforcement safe, public is safe, and frankly as I said before, even the migrant is safer when you do it that way, when you do it the common sense way versus the sanctuary city way. And that's what we really have to I think that's really the the decision here. Common sense or cityway? I think common sense wins out every time. With that, I yield back. Gentlemen yields back. Mr. Nadler. Mr.
▶ 1:32:32Chairman, the Trump administration after uh pardoning hundreds of violent criminals has launched a reckless, chaotic, and inhumane admin uh immigration policy that is making our communities less safe. the administration and as we heard today the chairman of this committee speak as if all immigrants are criminals. Uh they are the administration is draining resources away from other important law enforcement priorities and is even targeting legal immigrants and vulnerable populations.
▶ 1:33:03It's no surprise that many states and localities do not want to aid and abet the president's extreme anti-immigrant agenda. Recognizing that good policing depends on building trust with their residents, many cities forbid their law enforcement officers from questioning victims of crime or witnesses to a crime about their immigration status. And they do not share in im immigration immigration information with federal authorities.
▶ 1:33:27They believe that their communities are at greater risk when a victim of domestic violence is afraid to ask the police for protection from her abuser for fear of deportation or when witnesses to a murder refuse to assist law enforcement in tracking down the perpetrator because they're afraid their immigration status will be discovered. These cities have concluded that if they take on the federal responsibility to enforce immigration laws, it would destroy trust between immigrants and local law enforcement, which would make everyone less safe.
▶ 1:33:56Major Franklin, why is building trust with all members of the community so important to policing? I think you touched on something, sir. Um, regarding the importance of it's not just for keeping members of the immigrant community safe because this very small number of violent offenders also pray on people outside of that community as well.
▶ 1:34:18So as soon as we can get the reporting of the crime, the cooperation from witnesses to have that person arrested, charged, convicted, and get them off the streets and and hold them responsible, the better for not just the immigrant community, but the community. Is it fair to say then that if minority communities, immigrants, or really any part of your community feels unsafe going to the police, that it makes everyone in the jurisdiction less safe? And can you explain why?
▶ 1:34:48Um again because the importance of that trust and this isn't something new by the way. We we've experienced the same thing with uh underserved communities where there's no trust with the police and we and we fail to get an accuracy regarding the the the crimes because they're not reported. There's no trust in reporting the crime because they don't believe the police are going to do the right things.
▶ 1:35:15And in many cases, they believe the police may cause them some sort of harm. In the immigrant community, it's about being deported. And not just the victim or the witness being deported, but that victim or witness can be friends or relative of someone else who might be uh undocumented and they fear that deportation. So, there's going to be limited if any communication, any cooperation at all with the authorities.
▶ 1:35:44And it's not just about communicating with the police. It's about fearing interacting with other uh uh positions of authority and services within the city who they believe they may have some sort of relationship with law enforcement. They want to ensure that them and their friends and families are not subjected to deportation. Thank you.
▶ 1:36:07One of the priority Republican bills this Congress, HR32, the so-called no bailout for sanctuary cities act, which has been teed up for floor consideration in the coming weeks, would gut billions in federal funding for states and localities, including funding for essential programs like public safety, education, and transportation if states and localities are not able to aid the Trump administration in federal immigration enforcement. Would cutting federal funding from local and state police departments help or hurt public safety?
▶ 1:36:37It it would make public safety much worse. C can you talk about the real world impact that these cuts would have on the ability of law enforcement to protect their communities? Absolutely. When I when I was in charge of Baltimore City Human Resources, we had a special unit that that applied for federal grants because we need the funding.
▶ 1:36:55You need the resources not just for for law enforcement activities and duties but for other important things like youth programs which are extremely important other services mental health services there many of types of critical services that our communities need. Okay. Thank you. Um as we've heard today my Republican colleagues uh talk as if uh all immigrants are criminals.
▶ 1:37:21Um, could you tell us whether that's true and whether in fact the studies show that uh the the the crime rate among immigrants is lower than the crime rate among native born American citizens? Studies show that among im the immigrant community, it's lower. So immigrants are not criminals. Absolutely. Thank you. I yield back. Expired. Uh Sheriff Nails. Uh thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and I thank uh the panel for being here. Thank you, Sheriff Wagner. Those distinguished gentlemen behind you.
▶ 1:37:50I want to thank you all for your service. I'll give you a round of applause. Thank you for our county sheriffs. We need them. We need them. They're supported. You know, most of the crime and I know Mr. Franklin or Major Franklin, you're talking about the the distrust between the police and the communities they serve. Let's be honest with each other. You know where the distrust begins, right? It all starts in these large cities across America. I bet you if you ask one of those sheriffs, we had everyone come up here.
▶ 1:38:16They don't have a problem with trust between the their agents or their their deputies and the police people they serve. It takes place in these large cities, the San Francisco, the Chicago. When you look at Chicago and Miss Walters talking about Chicago, you had Lori Lightweight there. I mean, her approval rating was in the toilet. What a 22% approval rating. I think she was the first incumbent to lose reelect. And why is it her policies? It was the sanctuary city policies. She was horrible. Absolutely horrible.
▶ 1:38:47All the anti- police rhetoric. Would you agree with me that that's why Lori Lightweight is no longer the mayor in Chicago? Yes. And that's why Brandon Johnson has a 6% approval rate. You should Yeah, you should consider running for mayor. I think you're great. Anyway, Sheriff Wagner, you know, I was the sheriff. Fortman County, large county. Everybody that got arrested into my jail, I had about 1,800 bads. When you got arrested, every morning, every name, mine, any name, didn't matter who it was, would set get sent to ICE.
▶ 1:39:16We'd send it to ICE in Houston. They would scrub that list and they would then determine who a detainer gets placed on. I complied with every single detainer. Didn't matter if they said a detainer needs to be placed on this guy. And we kept our people safe. That's why I was a very popular sheriff and never had to worry about a reelection because the people supported what we did. But then when you got some of these liberal states, your state for a good example, Illinois and others, we created a law now in the state of Texas.
▶ 1:39:43We had a crazy rogue sheriff in Austin, go figure, in Austin, Travis County, that wasn't complying with these detainers. So, we now have a law in Texas that says if you don't uh comply, a county sheriff does not comply with ICE detainers, you'll be charged with a crime and then you'll be removed from office. And I most sheriffs across the great state of Texas support that. I believe you would as well. Yep. I would because it just keeps our people uh uh it keeps our people safe. I I want to thank you again, too.
▶ 1:40:13In 2005, you know, you I read your bio. You were awarded uh a malor a medal of valor for for one of your deputies that was shot by an illegal multiple times. I believe that is correct. Yeah. So, thank you for your service. You guys are fantastic. Um you know, you're being sued by your attorney general. I guess you you're putting your community at risk. Did you know that? Uh so I I if I can answer some of that.
▶ 1:40:40I know there's a lot going on, but uh the reality is is this. You talked about the size of your your agency in your jail. I have a 28 bed facility has been closed for three years. Uh we are not detaining on immigration status. Uh we do share information through the uh the uh stone garden thing that we are a part of in several other counties across our state are doing and the state actually gives us the money through it. Uh they're the ones that take their cut and then give us the money.
▶ 1:41:08But uh yes it it is exactly what you're saying. Some of some of the actions in front a few of the sanctuary jurisdictions I want to ask you if you think they're conducive to public safety in King County Seattle illegal alien name Julio Cruz Velasquez custody in 2019 with prior for rape domestic violence burglary robbery DUI drug possession dating back to 2010. King County ignored the ICE detainers released him into the community. He was then arrested later on for murder. It would have never happened if you'd have just complied with ICE.
▶ 1:41:38Does that sound conducive to public safety? No, it doesn't. Of course not. The stories go on. Washington County, also in your state, illegal alien Aleandro Meland Hernandez was arrested for manslaughter in a second degree for killing somebody while driving recklessly. The county ignored an ICE detainer, released him into the community, and he is still at large today. Does that sound conducive to public safety, Sheriff? No. Of course it doesn't. Let's go to Boston. April this year, Boston released an illegal alien charge of aggravated child rape rather than comply with an ICE detainer.
▶ 1:42:08Does that sound like conducive to public safety? No, of course it doesn't. And the story goes on and on and on. Mr. Frank, we go to Baltimore. April 24, Raul Calderon, a 25-year-old Guatemala Nashville convicted of fourthderee sex offense and seconddegree assault despite ICE detainer's request. Baltimore County released him after suspending his prison sentence. Then in 2024, another individual, 25 years old, convicted of molesting two family members, 9 and 10 years old. It just goes on and on and on. Now, Balto has problems.
▶ 1:42:36You got a lot of corruption in Baltimore. Again, when you look at these major cities, Baltimore, Chicago, everywhere, they're run by far-left liberal Democrats and by Soros funded DAs. And that's why you're getting clobbered in elections. The American people are sick and tired of it and they're fighting back. Miss Walters, I salute you. Thank you. Gentleman's time is expired. Miss Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Gyipole. And thank you to the witnesses for your testimony today.
▶ 1:43:05This hearing is extremely timely. The Trump administration's recent actions against our refugee community are making people less safe, not more safe. Recently, the administration sent emails to Ukrainians escaping Putin's war of aggression, telling them, "Do not attempt to remain in the United States.
▶ 1:43:31The federal government will find you." Then a day later, they said, "Sorry, we made a mistake." Cutting off resettlement funds for Afghans who made it to the United States after fighting side by side with American troops. That's in this administration's agenda.
▶ 1:43:51turning their backs on courageous Afghans who worked directly with our forces and are desperate to reach our shores but are have to hide out from the Taliban because we're not accepting refugees revoking all US visas held by South Sudin passport holders because their government refused to accept a deportee that the Sudin government said was Congalles, not South
▶ 1:44:22Sudin. And then this administration claims to care deeply about persecuted Christians while slashing Christian refugee entry by 78% in the first term and doing even less to help Christians who are persecuted enter the United States today.
▶ 1:44:44All of these heartless and short-sighted actions by the Trump administration serve no discernable purpose besides bullying those who escaped war, authoritarianism, and disaster. Again, this bullying undermines the stature of the United States in the eyes of the world and makes all of us less safe.
▶ 1:45:11It diverts our law enforcement resources away from real threats in order to upend the lives of honest, hard-working people in need of refuge from the United States. Now, with that said, I want to turn to the issue of how intentionally eroding trust of immigrant communities by local law enforcement can impact public safety.
▶ 1:45:38Major Franklin, uh, just a couple questions for you. Can you speak to how efforts by this administration to destroy relationships between the immigrant community and local police officers would be detrimental to public safety? Sure. Um, it would be detrimental in a number of ways.
▶ 1:46:02Number one, I spoke earlier to being successful in identifying victims of crime, having crime reported, being successful during the investigation of those crimes so that we can hold those violent offenders accountable, but also be it would be detrimental in the loss of critical resources that we desperately need among our uh law enforcement agencies around around the country. And again, I want to speak to the uniqueness of every jurisdiction.
▶ 1:46:31We should have the ability to develop our own strategies that would work within those particular communities that have their own special needs. A loss of of critical resources would would devastate us in the law enforcement community uh in in a number of ways.
▶ 1:46:50Um, so I took an oath not just to the Constitution, but to the people that I serve to protect everyone who's in my community, no matter what their status is. And in order for me to do that and my comrades to do that, you've got to have trust. You've got to build trust if you're going to get the information you need so that people aren't fearful when coming forward to report. They don't want to be victimized. They don't want their friends and family victimized.
▶ 1:47:20They want people held accountable and they want to be able to come forward and trust us and not and not uh fear them or their friends being deported from the United States. Thank you. Um are you familiar with the U visa, a visa for victims of crimes who cooperate with law enforcement or governmental officials in the investigation or prosecution of criminal activities? And if so, do you think that they're helpful? Yes, I am familiar with it and and they are helpful.
▶ 1:47:50Of course, the police officer has to take the initiative in filling out the paperwork when we're dealing with the victim to make to make sure that they're able to stay uh in in in the community and in the country. Thank you very much. And I yield back. Mr. Vandrew, thank you, Chairman. Let's cut through all the noise, all the blur, all the politics, all the nonsense.
▶ 1:48:13Nobody on this side of the aisle, because it was repeated again over there before, ever said that immigrants are bad people. We love legal immigrants that come here the right way. They are great Americans. I'll tell you a story real quick. I was picked up in a taxi cab the other day in Washington DC. Young gentleman driving the taxi cab. I love to talk to people. Start talking to him. He's from Ethiopia. He came here legally. He always wanted to be an architect.
▶ 1:48:40His cousin was an architect and he admired him so much and his cousin had helped him. But in Ethiopia, they tell you what you're going to be. You don't have that choice like you do in America. So, he was told he wasn't going to be an architect. He legally immigrated here, worked his butt off, gave it everything he had, worked multiple jobs, got his degree, and was working still more because now he was getting his master's degree.
▶ 1:49:05He taught me, he said to me, "For God's sake, protect your country." All these illegal immigrants coming here are not good. Legal immigrants are angrier about the illegal ones than anybody else. They were they did things the right way. They did it by the book. They're good people. We love them. So, let's be clear. Cut the nonsense. And I'm not directing that to you. And, you know, let's also cut the nonsense because it costs money.
▶ 1:49:34There's only so much money in this world and we're going through a lot of budgetary stuff right now and I make it clear. I'm fighting for Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security. Many of us are on both sides of the aisle. But when you're spending money on this stuff, it's less money for our children. It's less money for our seniors. It's less money for our veterans. It's less money for our disabled because we don't have an endless amount.
▶ 1:49:58So when you're spending tax dollars on that, our American people in our cities and in our rural areas and every we're in between are getting hurt. Let's cut through the nonsense. We're taking things away from them. And it's wrong. You can't have a country without borders. You can't have public safety without law enforcement. You can't have public safety when you're releasing lawb breakakers into the community.
▶ 1:50:24And not all illegals have committed horrendous crimes, but some have, and we're not checking on it properly. There have been murders. There have been rapes. There have been disfigurements. There has been all kinds of harm done. And when you create when you create a sanctuary city or state, you are compounding that. And you know what?
▶ 1:50:45The only thing worse than the illegal people when they come here, especially those that are violent, are the people that condone that and give them benefits and help them to stay here. How wrong is that? They're hurting everybody else who voted for them. I'll give you one example. My home state, the state of New Jersey, nationwide, ICE is currently detaining nearly 48,000 illegals. It's exceeding its funding funding capacity, which as you all know is 41,500 beds.
▶ 1:51:14So in the northeast, particularly in New Jersey, we face a severe shortage of beds. So what did ICE do? They took action in New Jersey. They plan to open a thousand bed facility in Newark in Delaney Hall to relieve the pressure. And guess what? Newark's mayor fought it. He he sided with the people who were illegal, the people who were breaking the law. He doesn't want to help in law enforcement. And by that, then you're breaking the law as an elected official.
▶ 1:51:42The elected official is a lawb breaker and it's wrong. We know what happened to Lake and Raleigh. We know what's happened to so many people. We're trying to clean up the chaos that was left behind. Bottom line, I have a couple questions here. So, I want to Sheriff Wagner, you faced legal threats for doing what you're doing. Could you tell us a little bit about that real quickly?
▶ 1:52:02Yeah, right now we're we're we're being faced with a lawsuit from the attorney general of Washington State um on in my view some they're suing you for trying to uphold the law. What a crazy world we live in. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. How awful that is. It's okay. No, because it pisses me off. Yeah, I get it. It pisses me off. But uh the reality is that it's uh some of the circumstances that that have been uh it's it's very political. Uh it's politically driven and it's unfortunate that we're in that position.
▶ 1:52:32Uh because we like I said before, we've had a jail that's been closed for three years. I'm not housing people. Uh I use outside entities to do that. Um I don't have the resources and manpower to go out and round people up out in the fields. Not only that, the the other mention uh person that was here earlier, look, we're a small community and I do have the trust of my community. I have a a twothirds Hispanic population in in my workforce at the sheriff's office.
▶ 1:53:00I have guys that less than five years ago, six years ago, maybe 10 years ago, that were illegal, got their citizenship, and they work for me. So, I understand the process and I understand how these people are affected. The whole fear-mongering is coming from both sides, quite frankly. Uh, but it does come and it it tries to hit our community because we are Hispanic population of 34%. And there's the truth. There's the truth.
▶ 1:53:25And uh we we unfortunately are are dealing with a nationwide problem where the the border is the southern border, not the northern yet. And my my community is affected because guess what? We fit the bu the mold that needs to be in politics apparently right now. Thank you for what you do. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a UC request. Uh this one is from Newsweek. Donald Trump pardon recipients are being charged with new crimes since their pardons.
▶ 1:53:54And uh this is NPR January 30th, 2025. January 6 writers pardoned by Trump had criminal records. Without objection. Thank you, Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Chairman Mcccleintoch.
▶ 1:54:07another day and another hearing to distract the country from the dumpster fire of the Trump administration instead of talking about how Trump and Musk are destroying our economy, busting unions, gutting social security and Medicaid, stealing people's private information and trampling on civil liberties. Republicans are here to surprise scapegoat immigrants.
▶ 1:54:37Once again, the Republican playbook on immigration is dishonest and cruel. Republicans have lifted up some tragedies that involved immigrants committing a few crimes. This is the exception, not the rule. I live in an immigrant neighborhood in Chicago. I know what it's like. But the antidote to dishonesty is truth. And that's what I'm going to talk about.
▶ 1:55:07The truth here is that there's significant evidence that welcoming jurisdictions have lower crime rates, lower poverty rates, lower reliance on public assistance, and lower unemployment rates. This is from a stakeholder, someone who lives day in day out. Do I want to live in a dangerous neighborhood? I have a wife. I have children. I have grandchildren.
▶ 1:55:32But welcoming jurisdictions have had to do this for good reason. And the truth is that the courts around the country have repeatedly upheld welcoming policies like the ones in Chicago, Cook County, and Illinois. They've also held that forcing states and localities to participate in immigration enforcement violates the constitution.
▶ 1:55:59The truth is that welcoming policies increase trust between community and law enforcement. That's why forcing states and localities to be an instrument of ICE is opposed not only by local law enforcement leaders, including Chicago, but also by many crime victims groups like the National Task Force to End Sexual and Domestic Violence.
▶ 1:56:25But despite all of this, Republicans are championing a bill that would gut cut billions of federal funding for essential programs like public safety, education, and transportation if states and localities do not sign up to enforce Steven Miller and Tom Holman's reckless, racist, and illegal immigration agenda. Major Franklin, thank you for being here.
▶ 1:56:49Let me ask you, would cutting funding for these essential programs help or harm public safety in your opinion? Cutting those the funding for those programs would definitely harm. It's it's no doubt about it. Um and the services are extensive. Um, and that's one of the things that the Law Enforcement Action Partnership helps communities do, cities and towns, is to manage their limited resources and find other ways of dealing with uh, community issues and problems other than law enforcement.
▶ 1:57:20Thank you. And in your experience, how do welcoming policies affect domestic violence survivors and other crime victims? So, outside of my law enforcement experience, when I was with the Baltimore Police Department, I was also the president of an organization called Turnaround Incorporated that was uh an advocacy organization for victims of domestic violence and and child sexual assault and and so on.
▶ 1:57:46Um and working with that organization for four years opened my eyes quite a bit as to the importance of have welcoming policies for uh the immigrant community as it relates to domestic violence and ensuring that they get the services they need especially since it is very difficult for them to come forward when they are victims or their family members are victims. So you've got to have that trust and built between those communities and the police. Thank you sir.
▶ 1:58:13It's quite clear to me that Republicans are not interested in public safety or crime victims. Tragically, if Republicans cared about public safety, they'd talk about the obedience to the NRA and red states having the highest rates of gun deaths and homicides. If Republicans cared about public safety, they'd support investments in evidence-based public health approaches that are proven to reduce violence.
▶ 1:58:37If Republicans cared for public safety, they wouldn't be criminalizing immigrants, kidnapping people, or disappearing them to El Salvador. And if Republicans cared about public safety, they would never have supported Donald Trump, a man whose greed and cruel actions makes us all less safe. I'm proud to have helped shape Chicago's welcoming measure in 1985 in the face of lies and cruelty. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:59:06Chairman, before I yield back, I do request unanimous consent. Without objection, u chair would remind members that the kind of personal attacks directed at the president are not permitted on the house floor and they will not be permitted in this committee. Uh Mr. Moore, c can I submit u Mr. Chairman? Yes. I said without Thank you. Um, I would like to submit for the record uh an im a uh uh study uh immigrants do not commit more crimes in the US despite fear-mongering.
▶ 1:59:37Another article, immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than US-born Americans. Studies find in a third article study finds that no crime increase in cities that adopted sanctuary policies desri despite Trump claims. Thank you. be very interested in reading those. Mr. Moore, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to the Biden Harris administration, border crisis, illegal aliens flooded sanctuary cities, overwhelmed their infrastructure, and maxed out their budgets.
▶ 2:00:08According to the New York City Mayor Mayor Eric Adams, by the end of the fiscal year 2025, the city had spent more than 12 billion on illegal aliens um for their city. Um study also shows that for Denver, one study estimated that that speed city had spent $356 million on illegal aliens. And Miss Walters, according to the report, the mayor of Chicago spent $638 million in vendor contracts for illegal aliens since 2023.
▶ 2:00:38Miss Walers, have you seen your taxpayers dollars being used to benefit illegal aliens instead of the American citizens? Yes. And actually after he spent all that money, he then came back and tried to propose a $300 million property tax on the American citizens.
▶ 2:00:59So not only did he take our tax dollars and spend it on people who and let me just say this, when you come across that border illegally, you have broke the law, therefore making you a criminal. So the 20 million people who cross this border criminals. So let's just get that so that that's get that straight right now.
▶ 2:01:24That's why we trust President Trump because he is listening to the American citizens and the Democrat party. That's why their uh rating is what 26% because they refuse to listen to what the American citizens want. Miss Walers, I think really, Miss Walters, I I think really you're right. And I I think so. Do you Is that how you see Chicago flipping red? Is it the immigration issue? I know that was a big issue in this election, and I agree with you.
▶ 2:01:54If people come across the border illegal, they are lawb breakakers by definition. And uh and we're not a sanctuary city in Alabama, but I'll tell you this. I had a 14-year-old girl drugged into a restroom in Wumpa, Alabama, and raped by an individual who he had claimed to be a minor when he came to the US. He was 31 years old. and the Biden administration didn't bother to do a background check turning them loose in our community and we're not a sanctuary city.
▶ 2:02:16I cannot imagine what these sanctuary cities are having to deal with and these law enforcement officers when they're trying to just for public safety purposes catch people and then not even notify ICE because they just want to release them back into the community. So tell me, so you think this issue of just re the people who the very people who supported the Democratic party are being left in the coal in my humble opinion and so is that how you're seeing Chicago flip red because of the Democratic policies and what they're doing to those community they're supposed to be protecting?
▶ 2:02:44Yes, Chicago flips red established because of that and we are going to make it our business because we have seen a the destruction that the Democratic Party policies have done to our communities and our uh city. It's funny that uh Mr.
▶ 2:03:04Garcia is from Chicago and he cannot tell you as what's happening in our community because if he came into our community, he would see all the gang graffiti, the trendy signs, the MS13, he would see that across the street in the park and then and and where they are putting the shelters at that all the the needles that's in the park, all the the all night All we hear
▶ 2:03:34is music all night and the drinking and the defecating on the streets. All the restaurant the the illegal restaurants that are allowed to operate on the residential on our corners. So, Miss Walters, in some ways, you feel almost like a prisoner in your own community because of the policies of the administration prior to Trump. Yes. And then they can't lock them up. My husband just retired. He's a police officer. They could not lock them up.
▶ 2:04:03and they wasn't reporting the numbers. So if an illegal alien committed a crime, they wasn't reporting it and then you didn't know. So that's why they say, "Oh, there's less crime by a lot of the illegals because they're not bothering reporting the crimes that illegals are actually committing in those communities." Yes. I got you. Hey, real quick question. And and and you can finish up on this. Um Democrats really they attack Republicans often. They call us racist because of our opposition to sanctuary jurisdictions. What is your response to that when they say we're here trying to make communities safe and they're calling us racist?
▶ 2:04:33What is your response to that sort of rhetoric? I say call me a racist and I don't want anybody who who crossed over here illegally unvetted. I don't want them in my community. So you call me racist because the because let me say the Democratic party is so far reality. They go in their gated communities. I don't see any of those people that's advocating to keep these people here. I don't see them in their house and their communities.
▶ 2:05:02They don't have them around their children or their husbands. But yet and still, they're advocating for us to allow this in our communities around our kids and our families. Thank you, Miss Walters. I got to I got to yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Time's expired. Uh Miss Crockett, thank you so much.
▶ 2:05:21Um, I just want to clarify that usually when we talk about racism in the Republican party, it has to do with things like deleting the history of Jackie Robinson, deleting the history of Harriet Tubman, or deciding that the Tuskegee Airmen uh should be deleted, or maybe just defunding the African-American Museum. The list kind of goes on and on and on. But I am not here to talk about why they are racist. I am here to talk about some other things as it relates to immigration. So, let's get to that.
▶ 2:05:49Um, you know, it's interesting because we got all these theories. I I don't know why we put up with getting data and facts if we just gonna sit here and talk about how we feel. So, you know, maybe we can inject some facts into these feelings. I'm not really sure.
▶ 2:06:05Um, but as somebody who has actually practiced criminal defense, I don't know if there's anybody else in here who has, I can tell you that I have handled thousands of cases, not hundreds of cases, thousands on the state level in Texas, Arkansas, and the federal level. And I can tell you that, you know what, if I had to look at the vast majority of the cases that I was representing criminal defendants on, the vast majority of them just didn't happen to be immigrants.
▶ 2:06:34These are just the facts of my experience and maybe the immigrants went to somebody else. I don't know. But I can tell you in my actual experience, in real life, in reality, and not in this fallacy world that y'all are making up where you hate on everybody. So, my Republican colleagues are here using uh today to continue pushing this false narrative of sanctuary cities harboring criminals. Yet, right here in DC, we have a 34count felon being harbored in the White House.
▶ 2:06:59The hypocrisy coming from your side of the aisle over concerns regarding lawlessness is outrageous. Right now, House Republicans are conducting town halls with constituents lying about our legal system. That quote, "There is no due process if you come here illegally because you violated the law." That immigrants quote are not entitled to due process. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that. We all want to live in a country where we respect the law.
▶ 2:07:28So, I'm a bit surprised that Republicans aren't up in arms with Trump detaining and deporting US citizens and people who are lawfully present here in the United States. What Trump and ICE are doing is a disgrace, and it's all being done without respect for our laws. For example, Mr.
▶ 2:07:45Neri Alvarado, a Dallasbased baker, was arrested and deported to El Salvador prison for having an autism awareness tattoo in honor of his 15-year-old autistic brother. This was done despite having never having been to El Salvador, despite having no gang affiliation, and despite having no organized crime connection. He was deported because ICE agents have been detaining quote all Venezuelans with tattoos.
▶ 2:08:15And to be clear, this type of racial profiling isn't just a one-off. In fact, the ACLU, using DHS's own data, mind you, found that at least 65% of the states and local agencies voluntarily working with ICE have records of racial profiling and civil rights violations. Mr. Franklin. First of all, let me and and sheriff, let me thank you for your service, too. I because I appreciate law enforcement.
▶ 2:08:45I just want to put that out there. But, Mr. Franklin, Major Franklin, you're a decorated law enforcement officer, yes or no? In your experience, does racially profiling people make communities safer? And yes or no, does ICE forcing state or local law enforcement to detain people make communities safer? No, you know, it's interesting because we've already and we're going to, you know, do Groundhog's Day a couple of times seemingly here.
▶ 2:09:15Uh, actually, let me give you the facts real quick before I go to that. In fact, a report for the American Immigration Council found that cities that didn't enforce ICE detainers have 35.5% lower crime rates, 2.3% lower poverty rates, and rely less on public assistance, including 4.9% less for children under 18.
▶ 2:09:35And I do want to be clear right now, ICE is trying to work with um the IRS because we actually take in billions of dollars because of immigrants in this country and now they're going to try to get them out. And I'm going to tell you that the biggest issue that we have, I really don't think this should be a partisan issue. So I'm going to agree with my Republican colleagues. I think that we all should want to be safe in our communities. The problem that we have is that we have an incompetent administration.
▶ 2:10:05That everything that they touch turns to because what they do is they take a wide sweeping brush and they have decided that the enemy is now going to be immigrants instead of taking a scalpel. That's all we're asking is to be exact in what you're doing instead of taking a sledgehammer to everything. Thank you and I will yield. Uh Mr. Hunt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:10:28The Democrats keep using the phrase constitutional crisis, but the real constitutional crisis is sanctuary city mayors, DAs, and judges who are defying federal law and preventing the president from doing the job that he was elected to do by the American people. It is the job of the federal government to keep Americans safe. When violent gangs are taken over American cities like Chicago, that is an invading army. When you can't live peacefully in an apartment in Colorado, that is also an invading army.
▶ 2:10:58No judge, DA, or liberal mayor should be able to usurp the power of our commander-in-chief, who was elected by 77 million Americans. And now the Supreme Court agrees. Since the Democrats do not like the result of the election, you would think that they will be focusing on the midterms coming up, but instead they are engaging in a judicial coup d'eta.
▶ 2:11:19The reason they are not focused on the midterms is because they are not confident that they can take back control of the House of Representatives in two years because they have no leader and they have no valid message. The Democrat party has a has a 21% approval rating with voters in this country. And why? Because their only message is Trump is bad. They've gone so far as to attack people for driving electric vehicles.
▶ 2:11:43They openly admit that they are DEI hires and they claim that the reason they're not popular with voters right now is because they are not opposing Trump enough. That's the reaction to their failure. Their solution is to become more extreme and more unpopular with their policies. This question must be asked. The Democrat party hate President Trump more than they love our country and more than they love the safety of my fellow Americans.
▶ 2:12:08This might explain why they are willing to overtly defend members of Trend Aaragua MS-13 rather than stand up and clap for a child with a terminal brain cancer illness or for a young man admitted to West Point, my alma mater, or for a family of the gentleman who was murdered in Butler, Pennsylvania. Trump derangement syndrome is real. It's a real thing and sanctuary policies are harming my fellow Americans.
▶ 2:12:36As my witnesses have testified here today, this US congressman is tired of seeing mothers, daughters, and wives of Americans raped, maimed, and murdered by Trendewa and MS-13 and other violent criminals that have snuck across the border to destroy this great nation. All of us should support ICE raids, the hard work of Tom Hman, Customs and Border Protection, and the policies of our dulyeleed commander and chief. Miss Carter Walters, thank you for being here.
▶ 2:13:06Ma'am, I really appreciate your testimony earlier and your experience specifically in Chicago. Are communities of colors dis disproportionately impacted by illegal migrants getting special privileges? And if so, how? Yes. So, they are placed they are placed in our communities. They are not placed anywhere else but in our communities and they have taken over our schools. So where is you already had overcrowded schooling.
▶ 2:13:31So you might have 20 to one class, now you have 40 to one class and then they don't speak English. So now that's taken away from the child already who who is already in an overcrowded classroom. And then you have where now we can't even they took over our parks. So where you have a sink grandoms and things kids is to keep the kids off the street they house illegals into the field houses.
▶ 2:13:59So they took over our field houses and then now apartments where where is because our mayor is paying so much money for illegals to uh house them. Now we have uh tenants that can't even the landlords that won't even rent to American citizens because they're renting to illegals because they get paid more for illegals. Let me ask you let me ask that next question ma'am. You've been black for a pretty long time, right? Yes. So me too. I I've been black for my entire life.
▶ 2:14:28So just want to acknowledge that. So by basically what you're saying, do you view yourself as a different American or do you just care about the the the the safety of our community? Does it are you a racist for feeling this way? No, thank you very much. And uh Mr. and Sheriff Wagner, thank you so much for your service. I really appreciate all you've done for this great country. Uh you've been a hostage negotiator, detective, a patrol sergeant, and sheriff. Uh you've your your accolades are are unbelievable. My question for you is this.
▶ 2:14:55What are the Democrats in your state doing to prevent you from doing your job? And do you expect more of this or are you not allowed to enforce the law? It's come down to I'm not allowed to or else. And that's really what we're faced with. We're we have a an attorney general that is going by uh his marching orders, whatever you want to call it, and coming after our little agency uh to serve as a message to the rest of the state of Washington. And if you look behind me, that's why these sheriffs are here today. They all feel the heat.
▶ 2:15:26They they feel the the situation is bearing down on us. We're only 39 sheriffs in our state, and our state needs sheriffs, believe it or not. But they keep keep trying the attack constantly. Constantly and and with as somebody that has worn the uniform, I understand the importance of leadership and it starts at the top. Thank you so much for for for what you've done for our great nation. I have a unanimous consent request. I yel back you the remainder of my time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There was no time remaining.
▶ 2:15:54I have a unanimous consent Go ahead. um to enter into the record an article about a US it's entitled US citizen sues department of homeland security following three and a half years in immigration detention without objection I have another article uh entitled Marine veteran was among US citizens detained by ICE ACLU says without objection thank you Mr. Chairman I yield back Mr.
▶ 2:16:23Uh, if I've got one more UC request, this will be interesting to members. Um, just breaking news. Trump appointed federal judge blocks all deportations from Southern District of Texas under Trump's Alien Enemies Act proclamation. You know, it was moved from DC to Texas without objection. And Mr. Chair, I have a UC request as well. Um, this is actually laying out, this is uh setting the record straight on local involvement in federal civil immigration enforcement, the facts and the law.
▶ 2:16:52It lays out multiple settlements because of violations of people's constitutional rights. Without objection. Thank you, Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, we're fiddling while Rome burns. Our country is in danger of losing the democracy that we valued for so many years.
▶ 2:17:14And we look forward to the 250th anniversary of our Constitution and our nation when the Constitution that James drafted is being torn apart by this administration. Powers that are given to the legislature, powers of the purse in article one to Congress are being surrendered to the executive. the to just eliminate offices that have been funded by Congress have been given to the executive.
▶ 2:17:44There are checks and balances in our constitution. Precious checks and balances that make us differ from countries like authoritarian countries where the ruler is like the king and does whatever he or she wants. And we're destroying those checks and balances. Congress is supposed to check the executive and we're not doing it. They're taking our powers.
▶ 2:18:05They're destroying offices that were created by Congress like the Department of Energy and the Department of Education and the Peace Institute which was set up as a independent group, not part of Congress, not part of the executive, and they've gone in doge with police officers from DC and taken it over and they're trying to eliminate it. And there all other kind of offices like that are trying to eliminate.
▶ 2:18:27Our country is in danger now and immigration is important but if we don't have a country immigration isn't an issue and I just astonished at how many people particularly in the other side of the aisle are surrendering their power to Trump and letting him do whatever in the hell he wants. We had a continuing resolution. There were community projects authorized by each congressperson.
▶ 2:18:54I think all almost all had community projects in there and we wiped them out. But article one says we're in charge of the purse and we come up and make recommendations and rather than include them in a congressionally ordered continuing resolution, we eliminate them. That makes no sense. We have given up our article one powers and Trump is just doing whatever he wants and we don't we don't even question him or challenge him.
▶ 2:19:22I wrote a letter to Christine M on February the 14th and I have not gotten a response to it. I served with her. I should have gotten a response. Uh I wrote her that I inquire about the Department of Homeland Security's immigration enforcement policies, priorities, and communications. And I let her know in the letter that I agree with her that we should get the worst of the worst. She called it the worst of the worst.
▶ 2:19:48But there have been conflicting reports on who ICE is picking up and detaining. And I appreciate her letting me know, who they picked up, how many of those were child sexual abusers, homicides, or rapists, where those individuals were apprehended, and where they were previously in custody of another law agency, and how many went to Guantanamo Bay, and whatever.
▶ 2:20:17I appreciate her clarifying the number of immigrants, if she would, who are the worst of the worst, and those who have been convicted for murder, rape, and child sexual offenses. This was on February 14. I have not heard from her. It's now two months, but she's had plenty of time to put on her cowboy britches and her cowboy hat and ride on horse. Fortunately, not shooting any dogs on the way.
▶ 2:20:38She's had time to pose in front of people in prison in El Salvador, dressed as she does with her Rolex watch and looking whatever and talk using them as a prop. But she doesn't have time to answer a congressional request to state who have they arrested and what who are the worst of the worst and are they getting the worst of the worst. I have to presume her failure to answer is the fact that they're not getting the worst of the worst.
▶ 2:21:02And on CNN the other day, they showed a graph, and I don't know their stats, but at least they're given stats that show that most of the people that were sent to El Salvador were not convicted of any crimes in this country, any felonies. They were not the worst of the worst. They might have had a bunch of ugly tattoos on. I don't know who they were, but they had a right to due process. And when we come into office, we take an oath to support the Constitution and to support the Constitution and our country against all enemies, domestic and foreign.
▶ 2:21:32That's not an oath we take just when it's easy. Saying that these people who are all tattooed and maybe they're members of this gang, I don't know. Nobody hardly knows. But that may not be easy in this climate. But due process is important all the time. And it's most important when it's in the worst circumstances, the most difficult circumstances. That's when we have to stand up and abide by your oath.
▶ 2:21:54So, while I appreciate everybody here in uniform and thank you for what you're doing and and protecting the laws of this country, the fact is our country is at risk right now and we need to stand up, support our oath and keep the powers of the Congress as they have been intended and stop this president from a coup d'eta and an authoritarian takeover. And I yield back the balance of my time. Mr. Fry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
▶ 2:22:23Unfortunately, uh, when my fir when I first got to Congress 2 years ago, the former ranking member said at our first immigration hearing that we Republicans were imagining a border crisis. Uh, so, Miss Carter Walters, are you imagining a border crisis? What how would you how would you respond to that?
▶ 2:22:44Uh and that's why President Trump almost we almost had a red wave in the United States because we are tired of the lies, the gaslighting from the Democrat party. All while they're everything they're saying right now that we are th Trump is a threat. Everything is is is a threat. No, they're the threat. They the Biden Harris administration allowed 20 million people to cross that border unvetted and illegally.
▶ 2:23:14So no, we are not imagining anything. When I go out outside my house and I look from side to side and across the street and I see what I see, I'm not and and see the the gangs and see the everybody that's not Well, let me say this. Let me just people who I know that's not from my community and people who I know that's not from here. When I see that inf that invasion in my community, then I'm not imagining anything.
▶ 2:23:45No, I'm looking at that with my own eyes. Thank you for sharing that. Sheriff, um, real quick to you. In your law enforcement experience, it's pretty customary to work with your state and federal law enforcement officials on any number of issues. Is that is that a fair characterization? Yeah. Actually, we've done that for years. Yes. Right. So, so in any given scenario, you back them up. They might provide you with resources.
▶ 2:24:09There is a an aspree decor, if you will, between the law enforcement community uh to work together on crimes that are happening in your community, in your state. It should be and it should not be political in any way. So, the interesting thing in in your state is that you now have a state attorney general uh who is the chief presumably the chief law enforcement officer of the state uh that is impeding your ability to do your job. Have you ever seen something like that before?
▶ 2:24:37Not not necessarily on immigration or sanctuary policies, but have you ever seen uh a a state official like that impede local law enforcement to the degree you have right now with these sanctuary policies? Not in the years that I've been in law enforcement until the la probably the last 10 years. Things state have changed. Mr. Hman, are you familiar with 8 USC 1373? Yep. What does it uh just to paraphrase, what does it say?
▶ 2:25:03Well, I I mean it's a critical statute uh when it comes to immigration enforcement and something that Democrats obviously ignore and disregard like they do every other part of immigration law. So the the the the statute basically that you cannot restrict communication between state and local entities and federal immigration authorities. Is that correct? That is correct. But that's what's happening here. Though they're not only restricting communications. I mean let's give another example.
▶ 2:25:29Sanctuary jurisdictions are beyond simply complying with detainer requests. You have an example like Newark, New Jersey. UFA mayor Roz Baraka who is refusing to even allow a detention facility of a thousand beds to open. He's doing a permitting nonsense. They don't only not want to comply with detainers. They don't want to detain even in critical urban areas that are key hubs for removal. So So what's what's what's remarkable about this is why why would they do that?
▶ 2:25:56What what what would be the policy reason, the logical reason that they would do that? It's all it's all by design. Again, it's all these urban areas. You're going to start seeing it too. Again, it's not just, hey, we want to keep you in the shadows. We want you to to do as you please, live as you please. They want to make each jurisdiction in a flagrant abuse with a middle finger to the White House when it comes to enforcing our law. That's what they're doing.
▶ 2:26:21They're dismantling detention, immigration enforcement, and when it comes down to it, there's preventable crimes. We're going to keep seeing them and until, you know, uh, adequate funding is provided um, to President Trump and ICE to do mass deportation and everything, it's going to be in our hands, too. Yeah. Well, maybe we can start with some some funding by restricting the ability of these cities. I mean, if we're giving them grants, what are they going to? Or we're giving them money, but they're not actually cooperating or helping.
▶ 2:26:47I think to the sheriff's point earlier, it's really alarming to me that they would that that sanctuary cities even think that it's acceptable to exist, right? that this is a that this is a policy that is not based in reality, that it's a an emotional response to, you know, the big orange man is a bad guy in the White House. That's kind of where they seem to be going and that we would not allow the sheriff to do his job to work with our federal partners. And so, um, I think the the the Congress absolutely has a role here. Uh, we absolutely should work to shut this practice down.
▶ 2:27:18Uh, because as Miss Carter Walters talked about earlier, she sees it in her community. It is no longer safe. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Mr. Knock. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Major Franklin, just so I'm clear, I haven't been in uh for the entirety of the of the question and answers, but I want to ask you, do you believe that illegal immigration is a problem for the Oh, it definitely is a problem. Yeah.
▶ 2:27:44Do you believe that that the 10 to 15 million or or even 20 million people of the last four years is a problem for the country? Yeah, I do. There's there's no doubt that we have a a border problem and we need policies because you've heard Yes. what we're dealing with at the local level once they get to our cities and towns. It's that's real. Yes. And then we have to make decisions on how we best manage it for us in our communities. And what we see is is public safety.
▶ 2:28:12saw this really pains me to to not be able to to see both sides come together and work within the in the brackets of the Constitution to come up with sound border policies and and processes so people can become legal. I mean, it it is a huge issue, but what we're dealing with at the local level and Sheriff Wagner and the other sheriff's here, it's a problem. And and you and you said it, sheriff, the politics, it's difficult.
▶ 2:28:44Well, let me just tell you there. Our side of the aisle is not for legal immigration. Our side of the aisle is for welcoming millions of people here and then trying to offer them legal status without any process or recognition of the existing legal immigrants we have. And the problem that I have is with sanctuary cities like yours in Baltimore where I personally had experience with detainers not being honored or respected.
▶ 2:29:09So in your experience, what is a federal detainer and do you support exercising those? Detainers become a a problem for us. What what is, as you understand it, what is a federal detainer? I've issued them. Detainer is is pretty much a a a notice to local law enforcement that they want a particular person and you know give us notice when they're going to be released who's already in custody. Who's already in custody.
▶ 2:29:37So that means by extension they have already committed a crime or been arrested for a crime. Correct. Absolutely. And those detainers when they're not honored those people are released without federal law enforcement effectuating an arrest. Correct. I've never experienced that. No. Well, that's what the detainers, that's what the sanctuary policies are built around.
▶ 2:29:57You're not honoring a federal detainer because under my command, the notice went out in a timely fashion and and the federal authorities, be it ICE or another federal agency, were then waiting for that person to be released. But by law, we could not hold them with a detainer. A warrant, yes. A detainer, no. So, just to cut to the chase, you don't honor the detainer. You have someone in your custody who's illegal.
▶ 2:30:24You're notified by federal law enforcement that they are here illegally. The detainer says, "Please hold." Sanctuary policy does not honor the detainer. Correct. Correct. If it's a warrant, we don't. Exactly. Exactly. So, you have people who have been arrested at the local level. there's a federal instruction to hold them a an illegal immigrant criminal and you prioritize releasing them rather than working with federal law enforcement.
▶ 2:30:52And it's your opinion that that serves your local community. They paid their debt. Releasing someone who's here illegally who has already been arrested. I'm asking the question, sir. you you it's your testimony that releasing an arrested illegal immigrant criminal effectuates a safety or a safe policy for your community when released by the order of the court on a specific date and time.
▶ 2:31:21This is what I call an invas this is what I call an invasive answer. That's what we're Someone has been arrested in your town who's here illegally and you want them to be released rather than to work with federal law enforcement and it's your testimony that that makes your community safer safer. We work according to the law.
▶ 2:31:42Do you think that being here illegally is consistent with a uh with the law with with with the federal law or state? law. No. When they commit a crime and they get arrested by your law enforcement agency, it's a civil process you're talking about. It is not a civil process. They are not brought into your jail by a civil action. Will the gentleman yield?
▶ 2:32:09Police do not have the authority to enforce that federal law. They have the authority to hold someone when a federal detainer is issued. And that you're you're skirting the issue. They were in your custody for some other action. Correct. which they've served their time for. Yes. For some other action. And when you issue a hold, it is a sanctuary policy to let them go. Correct. Sanctuary policy. I'm talking about what I know to be a legal policy. My time's expired. I think that the point Mr.
▶ 2:32:38Chairman, I have a unanimous consent request. I'm sure you do. Should I go ahead? Yes. Okay. Great. I'd like to enter into the record uh an article. Police say ICE tactics are eroding public trust in local law enforcement. See from NPR.
▶ 2:32:54From NPR, I have another uh unanimous consent request to enter into the record an article entitled Immigrant Sanctuary Policies and Crime Reporting Behavior, a multi-level analysis of reports of crime victimization to law enforcement 1980 to I have another unanimous consent uh uh to enter into the record an article titled the effects of sanctuary policies
▶ 2:33:25on crime and the economy. And a final one, oh not not a final one, some more to enter into the record. Can sanctuary policies reduce violence? And another one, the local effects of federal law enforcement policies evidenced from sanctuary jurisdictions and crime. These are all supporting the very real data that shows that cities and towns and states across the country with these policies are safer. Request without objection.
▶ 2:33:55Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Schmidt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and appreciate the witness's uh time and being here today. It's a it's an easy issue for most of us. Uh at least is for me. I mean, as a matter of principle, federal law says these folks once um convicted and subject to removal.
▶ 2:34:18As a matter of federal law, you ought to have cooperation and communication among the various levels of government uh in order to effectuate the purpose of federal law. That's not a particularly difficult concept. Uh I I recognize I was a state official for two decades. I I recognize the what's essentially a states rights argument on the other side, the anti-comandeering doctrine and the theory that the idea the legal principles that there are limits on what the federal government can do to compel states to do things they don't want to do.
▶ 2:34:48And uh I I've always kind of thought in this space the the way I've looked at it is that uh you know states and locals probably as a general matter have the ability to stand by and not be terribly helpful, but they don't have the ability to actively impede either by action or omission uh the enforcement of federal And sheriff, you're in the middle of the the bullseye right now as all this intersects.
▶ 2:35:18Uh do you look at it in a similar way or how do you draw that Yeah, I look at it's very similar, but the the problem that we face in Washington state and sanctuary policies. I mean, we talk about Chicago. It I'll go back to Chicago. We had an illegal immigrant come to Chicago with his wife and and kill her in our in our county, right, a few years ago. It affects us on a huge scale to not be able to communicate with another law enforcement entity.
▶ 2:35:48We got to stop these things. It's called defund the police. And now because one side has control or whatever, now all of a sudden we have uh a situation where ICE is the bad guy and now we got to get rid of ICE. We're a federal uh state, local, federal should be working together on all these in uh for laws law law enforcement perspective to find solutions for our communities. Amen, Sheriff. And I I feel for you. I I've been there.
▶ 2:36:14I've shared with this committee, the full committee, I think it was just a few weeks ago, a case we had a number of years ago where an illegal alien was convicted of DUI in California a number of years earlier and then came to our jurisdiction and some years later uh drove drunk again and killed a a sheriff's deputy.
▶ 2:36:31uh in in the course of doing that uh and I went back and double checked prior to this hearing and sure enough there's at least no record that the uh California authorities when they released that fellow from their state jurisdiction or local I don't know what it was had ever communicated with ICE there was no detainer no detainer request no record and so you know what happened in California didn't stay in California it came to my state and and killed a young law enforcement officer so there there's we have an interest in each other's handling of this um and It's uh perhaps
▶ 2:37:01a a profound interest. I want to ask you a question. Um you know, I'm lucky. I live in a a state that's my situation was just opposite of yours. While I served as our attorney general, I had some local jurisdictions that wanted to become safe and welcoming, as they euphemistically put it. Um and I wound up working with our legislature. We got a statute enacted that preempted all of that local authority and in fact affirmatively obligates them to comply with federal law to coop to communicate with federal agents. and I we we fixed our problem.
▶ 2:37:30But I I empathize you're not in a posture you can get that done. I want to ask you the other side of the coin. This is a little out of scope. So I'll ask I'll start with Mr. Hman and then if we have time Mr. Wagner and however. So it it just strikes me there's a strange juaposition here. On the one hand, the feds are limited in in in how we can put uh guard rails around state decisions in terms of becoming non-ooperation.
▶ 2:38:00But on the other hand, the federal government has almost entirely preempted states that want to cooperate, that want to enforce their own state law as to immigration, consistent, not in conflict with federal law. We said you can't do that and there's Supreme Court cases on point largely. That's not a constitutional function. It's a function of decisions made by this body. It's statutory preeemption. And I'm just wondering if you know sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
▶ 2:38:28And and as we're trying to figure out how we fix the sanctuary problem, should we also be talking about easing up on preeemption so that states or locals that want to be helpful in uh immigration enforcement, enforcement of federal law, parallel enforcement, enactment, enforcement of state laws should be able to do that. And Mr. H, what do you think about that? Well, again, under President Trump, one of the key things he's done, I mean, it's not a a new or unique authority that would be expanded, but again, 287 agree, I know, but it's not the same.
▶ 2:38:56287G requires um a partnership and agreement between the federal government and the states. So when you have a hostile federal administration, they just stop agreeing. I'm talking about actually easing the some of the preeemption provisions that are in the INA so that states that want to enact and enforce laws that are consist. We just need to be consistent. We just need to be consistent. Mr. Chairman, if you're going to cut off my witness, then I expect that you would Thank you.
▶ 2:39:24M Chairman, I've just got a a UC request. All right, go ahead. These are um five district court opinions which say that it is unconstitutional under the fourth amendment to hold uh someone beyond the term of their sentence on a mere detainer as opposed to a warrant. Without objection.
▶ 2:39:55Thank you, Mr. Gman. America is so generous in the number of people we allow in our country. Uh I don't think it's pointed out enough.
▶ 2:40:13We have I think over the last three years an average of about 860,000 people every year who are naturalized citizens who are sworn in as new citizens and do and did things the right way. And that's in addition to we let about 470,000 people on student visas, about 900,000 people who are in citizens on work visas. So we're we're very generous.
▶ 2:40:41Uh nevertheless, we just got through a 4-year period in which we had a president and I have sympathy for people as they're kicked out of the country uh because they might have been listening to our president uh at that Um, our president in essence encouraged uh 10 million people to enter the country of the last four years knowing that eventually if we had a law-abiding president who respected the law, we're going to have to remove this 10 million people
▶ 2:41:11and which we should do because it's an insult. It's a slap in the face to anybody who came here legally as they will quickly tell you and you're going to get too much of a quick change in America or cultural change if you allow that many people in the country that quickly. So in any event, one of the things that concerns me is the mindset of people who really encourage breaking of the law.
▶ 2:41:39And we have the we have the problem uh in Wisconsin where we have a a governor, we have a mayor Milwaukee who uh is not being helpful to ICE like they should be. But uh do do any of you folks I guess we can start with Mr. Wagner at the end. Have you had any experience with these people who apparently want us to ignore our immigration laws and what goes on in their contorted mind? why they can't just say like 850,000 a year.
▶ 2:42:08Uh, you know, get in line, do it legally. Yeah, I can't speak to someone's mind obviously, but I I can tell you that we do we we have those conversations within my my employment and my people that work for me that have been through the process that have family members that have come here some of them uh potentially ill their parents or or relatives uh before illegally and they're generational now.
▶ 2:42:34So there there's a lot of those kind of discussions that happen and and there is some insulted people that have done it the right way uh that don't feel that this is correct. Yes. Um Mr. Halman, do you have you come across these rather bizarre people who have been encouraging people to break the law and bizarre public officials who don't want these people removed? Can you imagine what's going on in their mind?
▶ 2:42:59Well, I mean, on the left, it's you obviously have the uh immigration lawyer industrial complex that is um really licking their chops over everything that's going on right now. It's interesting to see that even on, you know, social media or every, you know, uh public debate arena, all these lawyers and activists and everything, all they seem to care about is, you know, body art and other things like that as as defending um uh them from being unable to be removed and stuff, blasting obviously conditions in other countries.
▶ 2:43:28It's just everybody on the other side either has a financial interest in it or their interest when it comes to their extreme worldview of transforming our country. We we do have I hate I hate to say businessmen in my own district who want a lot more immigrants above above the legal amount because they don't want to give their employees a raise. And I think that's a motive that's going on out here because they know if we got a lot of people here illegally, they'll be able to work for less and they won't have to give the average American a raise. And I think that's a motivating factor too.
▶ 2:43:58Uh we got we got to get the view from Chicago. Miss Carter Walters, do you do you have a view as to why these people want to encourage people to break the law? Well, we believe that because the Democrat party uh have a with 21% approval rating. They need more. They need voters first of all.
▶ 2:44:22And it's disgusting to hear that uh they're advocating for people who broke the law to come to get here. And to hear them talk about their rights all while infringing on our rights as true American citizens is disgusting. And that's why we the people trust President Trump because he listened to us. He's a a president of common sense.
▶ 2:44:50And who in their right mind will be pushing? Now they see that 80% want mass deportation of everybody like you said when you come when you allow millions of people to come over here illegally saturating America then that means that we have to get them out here and then bring them back and let them come in the correct way.
▶ 2:45:15And this under the Biden and Harris administration, they opened the border and under President Trump, he's fixing the problem. So we, the American citizen, we are we we are okay. Carter Walters, I'm sorry to cut you off, but the uh ranking members quite insisted on this point. So I will have to ask you to conclude and recognize Mr. Honor. Uh thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you for all the witnesses here today.
▶ 2:45:46You know, less than a week after I was sworn in as a new member of Congress, one of my 18-year-old constituents was sexually assaulted on a lift ride, uh, which was driven by an illegal alien, uh, who had overstayed his tourist visa. 5 days later, the same illegal alien, uh, again kidnapped and assaulted another one of my constituents. this time while we're driving an Uber. Thankfully, our local St.
▶ 2:46:14Charles County, Missouri police department um arrested him 2 days later and uh this violent illegal alien faces multiple felony charges including secondderee sexual assault and kidnapping. And while he's being held on a $250,000 bond, ICE could issue a detainer requesting St. Charles County um PD to notify ICE before he's released from custody um so that ICE can take him custody.
▶ 2:46:44And I have no doubt that in St. Charles County uh the police department will cooperate. In addition, Missouri has a law which I actually passed in 2008 banning sanctuary jurisdictions and at the same time uh requiring uh police local police to requ uh cooperate cooperate with ICE and enforcement of our immigration laws. But of course in and that's why we're here today.
▶ 2:47:10In other states and jurisdictions, some police departments routinely deny these ICE detainers, returning violent illegal aliens like this ride share driver back into our community communities. Sanctuary cities are dangerous because they release release safety threats to our back into our communities. And of course, um Tom, our new immigration, Tom H. Homeman, uh recognize that he will make fighting this a priority. U Mr. Helman.
▶ 2:47:38Um, if a sanctuary city ignores or denies an ICE detainer, um, does ICE eventually apprehend the criminal alien? It obviously depends on on the situation and obviously ICE's resource constraints and their ability to comply with, you know, to issue every request and how it works. I mean, we're we're they're the the the operational roadblocks that ICE is currently hitting based on the the accounts that are running dry, the money they're having to backfill. Yes.
▶ 2:48:07They're they're they're not even close when it comes to capability at the moment. So, that would be sometimes called an atlarge arrest. Um, and why is that more dangerous to ICE offer officers and to the aliens and to the community than if the jurisdiction simply honored an ICE detainer? I mean, because they have to go out in the field and conduct a com a removal effort that is complex. You're already seeing it, too.
▶ 2:48:33The other side of groups on the left were out there leaking pending operations of them going to raid a house because they don't want it to happen when they're putting them at risk. Every enforcement operation that happens out there is at risk for them. 98% of illegal aliens are currently Roman free. We can't even track them with a monitoring device or they're not even in our custody. We're just, you know, like going out into the abyss and trying to find these people and putting their lives at risk. It's dangerous.
▶ 2:49:00And do these illegal aliens who are released do they sometimes reoffend? Oh, of course, absolutely. I mean the there's and then the thing too it's when it comes to any crime that's committed by an illegal alien is 100% preventable. We could have prevented every single one. You cannot compare them to US citizen crime rates. It's impossible.
▶ 2:49:22And you know, proponents of sanctuary jurisdictions sometimes argue that honoring ICE detainers, cooperating with ICE will erode confidence in the community and the local law enforcement, make people afraid to come forward and uh report crimes. What say you to that? Show me one example of it. I want to hear one example of a a a person that was arrested for reporting a crime.
▶ 2:49:49We have legal immigration pathways that do protect witnesses and things like that. Show me one example of it. I still have not heard one from any law enforcement officer. Uh thank thank you. And Mr. Chairman, um I would without objection, I'd like to uh offer uh in for the record um uh three uh three studies. One um quote another fatally flawed study on illegal alien crime from the Kato Institute.
▶ 2:50:17Another SCAP data suggests illegal aliens commit crime at a much higher rate than citizens and lawful immigrants. And a third Kato Institute's analysis on illegal alien crime latest in a long history of poor scholarship. I think there's sometimes this narrative that illegal aliens are more law-abiding than American citizens. And I think that is truly false. Uh indeed false. Thank you. I yield back. Uh Mr. Gil. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:50:46Thank you for holding this hearing. I think Miss Carter Williams uh Walters, excuse me, said it best that we had a secure border under President Trump uh in his first term that Joe Biden opened the floodgates and now President Trump is cleaning up Joe Biden's mess. So, that was very well said. Um I'd like to to begin with with Major Franklin. Thank you for being here. Do you know what percentage of illegal aliens reside in sanctuary cities roughly?
▶ 2:51:16No, I don't. It's about 56%. Rough numbers. Um and is it your testimony, and I've got your written testimony here, that uh local law enforcement should not um dedicate time and resources towards information sharing and detainer requirements? It's it's about generally speaking. Yes. It's about the context. It's about the context. I'll I'll take that specific circumstances. Yeah.
▶ 2:51:42So, there's some some some criminal illegal aliens they should I think it's more about um having good policies on how and when the communication will occur. Okay. We'll we'll come back to that. Um let me ask you, do sanctuary city policies and mass illegal immigration help American citizens enter the labor force? Yes or no? I don't know. That's not my area of expertise. Okay. You don't You don't know. Do sanctuary cities and mass illegal immigration help lower housing costs? Yes or no? You don't know.
▶ 2:52:12Yep. Do they help uh reduce the strain on public public services or public You don't know. Okay. Um do you think that illegal aliens you're you're saying that they should have safe harbor essentially in our in our cities? Should they have free access to medical care? They should have access to medical care. They have taxpayer subsidized access to medical care. Depends upon the circumstances. I guess I don't know.
▶ 2:52:41What about taxpayer subsidized education? It's not my area of expertise. Okay. Public housing. Not you don't know. You're you're inviting them to come into our cities, but you don't you don't have a position on what what should happen to them then, other than that illegal aliens should I'm not inviting anyone. Well, you you essentially are actually. Um would you describe Baltimore as a safe city?
▶ 2:53:10What's your definition of safe? I'm I'm asking you, is it is Baltimore a safe city? Is it the kind of city that uh you would want to raise a family and maybe go jogging in without having to be worried about being murdered or raped? I grew up in Baltimore. My family is in Baltimore. My mother still lives in the same house in West Baltimore. Is it a safe plus years? So, the answer is definitely yes. You think Baltimore is a safe city? Of course it is. Okay. Do you know what the homicide rate is in Exactly.
▶ 2:53:41It's about 35 per 100,000. Do you know what the homicide rate is in the rest of the United States? No, I don't. I can tell you that the homicide rate in Baltimore is about five times the national average. Um, do you know how Baltimore's robbery rate compares to the rest of the United at the moment? No, I don't. You don't. It's It's about 8.4 times the national average.
▶ 2:54:06Do you know how Baltimore's assault rate compares to the national No, I don't. It's about 3.4 times higher. Does that sound like a safe city to you? Safe to me and my family members. That's safe to you. 30 uh excuse me, five times higher than the national average for homicides. That's a safe city. Perception. It's what? Excuse me. I said it's what the for instance, it's it's perception. It's what you feel as a resident in Baltimore City.
▶ 2:54:34I don't if you're murdered, I don't think it matters what you feel. Do you is it is it your testimony that the safety depends on how people feel? To me, Baltimore City is a safe city. To you, it's a safe city. I don't think it's safe to the people who are be being murdered every single weekend there. Can I let me ask you I picking up on Mr. KN's questioning. Do you think that it's appropriate for local law enforcement to not honor immigration detainers and to release criminal illegal aliens into our cities?
▶ 2:55:05We go by what the courts dictate. Well, I'm I'm asking you if if you think that that's an appropriate response. You you you arrest an illegal alien for a crime. It has that person has an immigration detainer. You think that it's appropriate to release them? Yes or no? When the courts say release them? Yes. Do you do you think that that keeps Baltimore safe? If it's done appropriately, yes. No. I So So you do? Yes. You think that that's a that's a good way to keep when it's done appropriately according to the law.
▶ 2:55:34We cannot sidestep the law because we carry badges. We have to go by the law. My time is expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I have a unanimous consent request. Is he googling? I see. Yes. Yes. Because there are a lot of things that are being said on the other side that aren't true. So, I wanted to respond to my consent colleague who asked for one case where somebody was arrested for reporting a crime. So, here is one from the Detroit Free Press. It is entitled.
▶ 2:56:04She told Michigan cops she was attacked. Now she faces deportation by the feds. This is exactly what we are talking about. When you undermine general public meowing our member It's true, Mr. Chairman. way beyond an introduction. I am going to enforce the rules your requires me to limit your comments to the unanimous consent request without objection is I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:56:33I've just been frustrated by the lack of uniform enforcement of our committee's rules in the full committee. If somebody goes over on the other side, the chairman allows the other side to go over and you cut off my witness. So yes, I'm I'm annoyed by that when the gentleman to our members straying beyond biographical details on an introduction. I sustained her. Yes, you did. And that's what I've always believed about you, Mr. Chairman. Remember to order.
▶ 2:57:01That's exactly why I'm the gentle lady violates exactly the same. Well, it seems that it's only being enforced in certain ways. So inconsistent. I'm yielding back, but I do want to register my formal objection frustration with the way that the chairman has been enforcing the rules in this particular committee. I backing them, madam, uh, without objection, uh, the, uh, unanimous consent is requested. Uh, Major Franklin, where do you currently live?
▶ 2:57:34I currently live in Florida. Oh, in Florida? Well, I I can't say that I blame you. Um, Miss Carter Walters, where where do you live? Chicago. So, you're living with the problems created by the policies that have been advocated by officials like Major Franklin, who has since fled those conditions. Did I pretty much have that correct? Yes.
▶ 2:57:57It's funny because most of the people who leave Chicago, they usually leave to uh and go to a red state, but yet and still they advocate as as Major Franklin has. you you uh you testified that Chicago has cut law enforcement in order to divert those funds to support the illegal population. Uh Miss Carter Walters, why do people in Chicago put up with that?
▶ 2:58:24Well, I think that we know that we can see what's happening and we know something is wrong, but people are just so used to the to the corruption in Chicago and you we just usually say that's just how it goes in Chicago. But now we have Chicago flips red who's who standing up to the corruption saying no more.
▶ 2:58:51The the the Democrats say that a city that refuses to enforce federal law should nevertheless continue to receive federal law enforcement funds presumably so that they can divert them to support the illegal population. Does that make any sense to you? No. To me either. Uh, Sheriff Wagner, we've we've heard from the Democrats that uh and their witness uh that sanctuary laws make our communities safer by releasing criminals back into our communities rather than obeying the federal law that requires deportation.
▶ 2:59:22What's your professional opinion? I I think it's wrong. I think we we need to assist each other. Do these sanctuary laws make our cities safer or less safe? Less safe. But the Democrats say that that that people in the immigrant community are more likely to report crimes in sanctuary jurisdictions.
▶ 2:59:42Um, you know, I if I knew a criminal that I'm reporting is going to be released right back into my neighborhood uh after I've reported the crime, I think I'd be a lot less likely to report it, not more. What's your view? I agree. Uh, Miss M. Carter Wallers, what's your opinion? Excuse me. Do sanctuary laws make our cities more safe or less safe? Less safe. M Mr. Hman, how about you? Not even a question. Sanctuary policies put the American people in danger.
▶ 3:00:12They undermine the rule of law. They must be stopped. Full full speed ahead. All right. So So, so the Democrats and their witness tell us that we're safer if we release criminals back into our communities. The Republicans and their witnesses say the opposite. I think I'll just let that speak for itself. Sheriff Wagner, the Democratic witness testified that that honoring an ICE detainer is unduly burdensome. Do you agree? I don't believe they are.
▶ 3:00:41Well, how does honoring an ICE detainer uh differ from having to track down and arrest a criminal alien once they've been released under these sanctuary policies? You pretty much just explained that they get released and it's just harder to get them and hard to go after them and and a lot more dangerous, obviously. So, so the the ICE detainer simply basically requires a phone call to ICE saying we're we've got this individual in our custody. They're about to be released. You've got 48 hours to come and get them. Correct. Okay. So, that takes about what 15 seconds.
▶ 3:01:09I couldn't time it, but I And and then once once once that individual has been released because that phone call was not made because of these sanctuary laws, what's involved in apprehending that criminal at that point? Yeah. Well, it depends on who the criminal is, obviously, what they're what they're wanted for, those kind of things.
▶ 3:01:28But anytime you go outside and give a person an avenue of escape or or a determination not to be caught or or taken into custody, you in inherently take on a huge risk. I mean, and that's just the reality of what we deal with in law enforcement, not just ICE agents, everybody in law enforcement. So, obviously, it risks the lives of our law enforcement officers. What does it do to to to innocent bystanders? It it it's increased for everybody. That's just the reality.
▶ 3:01:55But that 15-second phone call is just too burdensome to these woke public officials. I'll let you comment on that. Uh the ranking member tells us that um the association that represents big uh city police chiefs supports sanctuary policy. Sheriff Wagner, who appoints these big city police chiefs? As far as I'm aware, they're done by a mayor or a council. Basically, woke Democratic officials. Correct. Well, I shouldn't say correct on the woke. I don't know. Well, great.
▶ 3:02:26But anyway, thank you very much for your testimony. That concludes my questions and that concludes the committee's questions. So, that in turn concludes the committee hearing. Uh, without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses uh or additional materials for the record. And without objection, the hearing is adjourned. Thank you. Great. You did all you