▶ 0:33:31All right. The subcommittee on cyber security, information technology and government innovation will come to order and welcome everyone. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time and I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Good afternoon and thank you for joining us for this discussion on federal IT modernization. An important role of this subcommittee is to ensure proper management of federal technology.
▶ 0:33:56The Trump administration and the US Doge Service and their efforts to make the government more efficient have prioritized modernizing government technology because they have rightly identified federal IT as the backbone for all government programs, operations, and of course spending. Federal IT systems enable everything the government does from the national defense and homeland security to the administration of benefit programs.
▶ 0:34:18And when these systems are outdated, obsolete, and unreliable, the government cannot carry out these duties responsibly or efficiently. The federal government spends more than 100 billion annually on IT systems with almost 80% of the spending going toward operating and maintaining them, including many legacy systems.
▶ 0:34:39These legacy systems which are built on unsupported software or hardware and rely on outdated data centers or coding languages such as Cobalt, a language I learned 25 years ago, plus create dangerous security and operational environments and are costly to maintain. A few years ago, GAO compiled a list of the 10 federal IT systems most in need of overhaul due to their critically criticality and their obsolescence.
▶ 0:35:05One is a cobalt-based system used to process about 20 million federal student financial and aid applications annually. The system is older than the Department of Education, which opened its doors in 1980. I learned Cobalt early in my career because coding provides a pathway for girls and women to advance into STEM fields. I actually taught myself to code. But today's aspiring coders are not learning Cobalt.
▶ 0:35:31That's why on his first day in office, President Trump signed Executive Order 14158 titled Establishing and Implementing the President's Department of Government Efficiency. This executive order established Doge through a reorganization of what was formerly known as the US Digital Service, an entity this subcommittee has collaborated with on a bipartisan basis for many years to promote it The Trump executive order includes a requirement for the US DOE service to work with agency heads to promote interoperability between agency networks
▶ 0:36:01and systems, ensure data integrity, and facilitates responsible data collection synchronization. This directive prioritizes efforts aligned with longtime industry best practices and expert recommendations for IT modernization. It also elevates the work USDS has been doing across the three previous administrations under Presidents Obama, Trump, and Biden.
▶ 0:36:25Today, we're here to celebrate the progress that has been made to modernize government technology, review the approaches that have worked, and discuss how the current Trump administration and the renewed USDs can aggressively prioritize proven solutions so we can finally make real progress in building efficient and effective federal IT. To this end, we're joined by three of the most senior technology leaders from the first admin Trump administration. Miss Kent, Miss Graves, and Miss Wrote.
▶ 0:36:51You served at the beginning of the CO 19 pandemic and helped oversee the start of the federal government shift to remote remote work. During this time, we learned a lot of processes were also paperbased and arcane. They couldn't be carried out digitally, which is a wild crazy fact. Uh, this was happening. The lack of resiliency in government operations created drastic consequences for our constituents who couldn't connect with government offices to receive benefits or file required paperwork.
▶ 0:37:22I'm looking forward to hearing from you all today about what you learned during this unique time in your government service. And it's my understanding that this is your first time all testifying together on the same panel. Thanks for being here today. Speaking of proven solutions, during the Trump administration, the Modernizing Government Technology Act of 2017 was signed into law. This act established the Technology Modernization Fund or TMF, which creates a unique funding vehicle that can be used to improve, retire, or replace federal IT systems.
▶ 0:37:51The TMF is a necessary piece of IT modernization puzzle. Without it, the unpredictability and the annual budget cycle would make it too difficult for some modernization projects to get off the ground. Last week, I re reintroduced the modernizing government technology reform act alongside oversight committee ranking member Jerry Connelly. This bill reforms and reauthorizes the TMFs so it can continue to be used to assist with IT modernization initiatives moving forward.
▶ 0:38:19With that, I recognize the ranking member Brown for her opening Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, for holding this important hearing. The federal government has long been behind the curve in modernizing its IT systems. We can all agree on the urgent need to bring these systems into the 21st century to strengthen our cyber security infrastructure, enhance customer service for the American people, and keep pace with the rapidly evolving cyber landscape.
▶ 0:38:46Since 2015, the Government Accountability Office has repeatedly warned about the federal government's overreiance on aging, vulnerable legacy IT systems. emphasizing that improving the management of IT acquisition and operations must be a top priority. Today, nearly 80% of the billions of dollars the federal government spends annually on IT is dedicated to operating and maintaining outdated systems, many of which are increasingly susceptible to cyber security threats.
▶ 0:39:17For the past two decades, Congress and administrations of both parties have worked together to modernize federal IT infrastructure. Earlier this year, Chairwoman Mason and I partnered to to pass the Federal Contractor Cyber Security Vulnerability Reduction Act of 2025, strengthening cyber security standards for federal contractors by establishing vulnerability disclosure programs. This is a model of the bipartisan work we must continue.
▶ 0:39:46In 2014, Congress passed the Federal IT Acquisition Reform Act, empowering Congress to better monitor agency's efforts in managing IT acquisitions. Thanks to this implementation, GAO reports as of September 2024, the federal government has achieved $ 31.4 billion in cost savings.
▶ 0:40:09This progress reflects the impact of sustained bipartisan oversight and the creation of innovative funding mechanisms to help agencies replace aging infrastructure. While there is much to celebrate, Congress must remain vigilant. It modernization is not merely about upgrading systems. It is about ensuring they are secure, resilient, and responsibly managed.
▶ 0:40:34Recent reports have raised concerns about the Department of Government Efficiency Doge efforts that may undermine the integrity of federal IT modernization, particularly regarding the protection of sensitive data and the layoffs of critical IT and cyber security experts. My Democratic colleagues and I have sent multiple letters to the administration requesting more information about how sensitive civilian data is being safeguarded during this transition. This work requires expertise.
▶ 0:41:04I am concerned that funding cuts and layoffs at agencies like CISA, NIST, and DHS, the very institutions tasked with securing our government's operating system, are stunting the hardearned progress we've made. Cyber threats are real, constant, and evolving. We must remain ready, resilient, and nimble in the face of potential breaches by adversaries. IT modernization is a bipartisan issue.
▶ 0:41:33I look forward to continuing our work together on this committee, cutting through the noise created by the reckless cuts at Doge, and focusing on the real task at hand. I am confident we can find common ground and continue to strengthen our digital infrastructure to better serve and protect the American people. And with that, I thank you and yield back. Thank you. I'm now pleased to introduce our witnesses for today's hearing. Our first witness today is Miss Maria Wrote to former US deputy federal chief information officer.
▶ 0:42:02Our second witness is Miss Margie Graves, also a federal federal US um deputy former deputy federal chief information officer. Our third witness is Miss Susette Kent, former US Federal Chief Information Officer. And our fourth witness today is Miss Erie Meyer, chief a former chief technologist at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Federal Trade Commission. So we welcome everyone. We're pleased to have you with us this afternoon.
▶ 0:42:28Pursuant to committee rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand and raise your right hands. And do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. Let the record show that the witness is all answered in the affirmative. You may sit down. We appreciate all of you being here today and look forward to your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record.
▶ 0:42:56Please limit your oral statements to five minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that when it is on and the members can hear you. And when you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, light will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your five minutes has expired. And we would ask that you please politely wrap it up. So, I'll now recognize Miss Wrote uh to please begin your opening statement for five minutes. Thank you.
▶ 0:43:22Uh so, Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member Brown, and honorable committee members, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. Again, my name is Maria RH. I'm the former US Deputy Federal Chief Information Officer and a retired US Navy information systems technician, Master Chief.
▶ 0:43:40I spent over 40 years in the military and public sectors and a few years in the private sector building innovative leading edge technology solutions for many large and global federal and military entities. I am honored to have this conversation today with you and with Miss Kent and Miss Graves. I work very closely with Miss Graves at DHS and OM and of course with Miss Kent throughout her tenure as the federal CIO.
▶ 0:44:07Together, we have a unique perspective of the federal enterprise, its missions, and its technologies. We understand the interconnectedness and complexities of the federal enterprise and the reliance of agencies on each other for information to provide services to the American public. We shaped executive orders and policies that strengthen federal IT resilience.
▶ 0:44:32We ensured agencies could continue operating efficiently despite unprecedented challenges like the pandemic and the federal shutdown. We it. I long viewed the federal government as an enterprise. And I think in terms of possibilities, why not? Why do we do this that way? Who said we couldn't do that? Let's try it. I am by nature a risktaker, a prudent risktaker.
▶ 0:44:59I like to understand the what if we did X or what if we did Y. The so what. Asking these questions to get to a big vision always leads to creative thinking, innovative solutions, and challenging status quo to drive policy or operational changes. Again, I've done that.
▶ 0:45:19With that view and my understanding of the interconnectedness of the federal enterprise, I believe we are at another inflection point where there is even more opportunity to take the next step in IT modernization by examining the federal government through an enterprise portfolio lens. Agencies have long worked together and shared information to accomplish their respective missions. Many of the TMF projects reflected this interconnectedness.
▶ 0:45:46These modernization projects were successful because all the elements were in place. Mission alignment, agency leadership buyin, clear understanding of the problem to be solved, contracts, multi-year funding, and the right workforce to name a few. These projects often challenge the status quo. Yet, too often, one or more key elements are missing.
▶ 0:46:09Portfolio governance can mitigate the risks through the right oversight, the right resources at the right time, and with the right leadership. With a federalwide enterprise approach, and asking why not, and imagining possibilities, we can lead it modernization initiatives that support effective business changes and improvements.
▶ 0:46:31As we look forward, it is essential to recognize the transformative potential of new or advanced technologies and artificial intelligence to identify, accelerate, and streamline business and technology modernization projects and programs.
▶ 0:46:49Leveraging shared services and resources, aligning funding to portfolios, removing barriers, back to why not, and accepting prudent risk can simplify access to government services, improve response times, and enhance quality and delivery. Achieving outcomes in federal IT modernization initiatives requires removing the barriers for information sharing and interoperability while still maintaining security and privacy. It can be done.
▶ 0:47:19You will hear more from Miss Graves and Miss Kent on how our learnings informed enterprise solutions like shared services and laid the groundwork for future modernization initiatives to help federal agencies adapt to new challenges, reinforcing the importance of crossgovernment modernization, cyber security collaboration, and ultimately better citizen services. Thank you for the opportunity to share my insights and experiences.
▶ 0:47:48Let's ask what if and why not. Thank you. I'll now recognize Miss Graves uh to begin your opening Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member Brown, and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I'm Margie Graves, former deputy CIO for the federal government and former deputy CIO for DHS. and I've spent 30 years of my career delivering technology services in the federal government and private sector.
▶ 0:48:16In my observation, the federal government has long struggled to address the technical debt that exists within the legacy system portfolio. There's bipartisan agreement that transforming technology systems and infusing current technology into government platforms is key to mission success. Yet, there are several barriers to transformation that exist. Among those are a lack of committed and reliable funding sources, gaps in technology talent, and complicated and lengthy procurement processes.
▶ 0:48:46These barriers have hampered the ability to leverage rapidly evolving technologies in the commercial marketplace and are some of the blockers that the original management act was intended to address. The vision for the MGT act was to create a multi-year funding mechanism in the form of a governmentwide technology modernization fund that would be available for transformation projects whose business cases met specific criteria and provided significant value to the government in terms of enhanced cyber security, improved
▶ 0:49:16customer experience, citizen service delivery and efficiency of operations. The selection criteria was modeled after venture capital firm operations. Key requirements that they consider include the mission impact, a solid acquisition strategy, the availability of technical talent, the selection of technologies that would be fit for purpose for this specific project, and a plan with milestones showing delivery and financial return on investment.
▶ 0:49:45But even when these baseline selection criteria are met, additional preference is given to projects that address common governmentwide issues where multiple departments and agencies can benefit from a proofof concept approach. Preference is also given to projects that integrate mission processes across agencies that share a common mission. Finally, the adoption of shared services in the commercial marketplace is encouraged. I'll illustrate these concepts with a few success stories.
▶ 0:50:14The Department of Housing and Urban Development executed a project that refactored legacy code of five critical business systems and moved these systems to a cloud environment. HUD subsequently provided a playbook and lessons learned to assist other agencies in taking the same path. DHS's Hizen is an information sharing platform that played a pivotal role during CO 19 supporting vaccine distribution and operations through the coordination of hundreds of organizations.
▶ 0:50:44The increased usage of this system during that time uh caused mission degradation. With TMF funds, the system was modernized into a cloud environment where it could scale to meet demand surge. Customs and Border Protection is utilizing TMF funds to modernize systems that support better management of border security and enhance collection of trade revenue.
▶ 0:51:07Both of these CBP missions are executed with mission partners from other agencies such as the Department of Treasury, Department of State, and Department of Justice. These projects demonstrate the importance of what Miss Roach said, taking a horizontal portfolio view of endtoend mission operations and the systems that support them. The Department of Energy col consolidated and migrated 64 separate email systems to a unified cloud service, reducing cost and enhancing the ability to communicate with all employees.
▶ 0:51:37This is a clear example of adoption of commercial shared services. And as a companion piece to aid agencies in achieving shared service adoption, OM issued memo M1916 on shared services and then worked with GSA to charter quality service management offices or CUSMOS in the areas of cyber security, finance, grants, and human resources. The CUSMOS are charged with developing standards, best practices, and commercial marketplaces in these areas.
▶ 0:52:07In one instance, the grants CUSMO has has increased the adoption of shared services from 19% to 48% within the federal grants awarding agencies. And in conclusion, the management act and the TMF have demonstrated success in this first cycle and version 2.0 will continue to move the needle. I'll borrow a statement generally included in most GAO reports. Much has been accomplished and much more is needed. The technologies available to us today are even more game-changing.
▶ 0:52:38Artificial intelligence can now be used to refactor or create code at lightning speed. It can be used to find anomalies in cyber activity and identify anomalous activities in our benefit systems to guard against fraud and improper payments. The opportunity is there. Progress is real and TMF is one tool that will address barriers and help us move forward. Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you. I'll now recognize Miss Kent for your opening Chairwoman Mace, Ranking Member Brown, and Miss Insari, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.
▶ 0:53:08I'm Cuz Kent. I served as federal chief information officer during President Trump's first term, and I've spent over 30 years in the private sector building and operating technology solutions for many of the world's largest companies. Miss Wrote covered the importance of approaching government modernization as an enterprise and the connected nature of technology and data across agency missions. She shared some successes but highlighted barriers. Miss Graves spoke about the impact of the technology modernization fund.
▶ 0:53:36She also summarized steps that we took in previous administrations to drive common technology for common services. And she shared progress yet there's still so much to do. I'd like to build on their comments and state why I believe that we are finally at a juncture where it is possible to take down this legacy technology hurdle. In the office of the federal chief information officer, we often use the language of OMBB management memos and the expectations of law to define our technology goals.
▶ 0:54:06But I'm going to use plain language today to point out that much of the needed policy and law that defines what the technology goals should be are already in place. Things like eliminating inefficiency, fraud and waste, achieving security and resiliency in all mission spaces, common government tools for common processes, prioritizing the use of scalable security hardened commercial solutions, and use of data and advanced technologies to eliminate manual activities and
▶ 0:54:36finally deployment of digital solutions for critical government service. So if our goals are defined, how do we get there? As you consider this question, there are now two things that are modernization game changers. The first thing, it is thrilling to think that modernization is finally a top priority.
▶ 0:54:57the actions being taken through executive orders, streamlining of acquisition at GSA, proposed policy changes, and updated laws like the modernizing government technology reform act loudly signal that Congress and this administration understand that achieving efficiency and delivering effective mission outcomes requires modern technical capability and bipartisan collaboration.
▶ 0:55:23The ex the second thing is the extraordinary advancement of the tools to drive modernization efforts. I work directly with many of the companies who build code assistance tools, deploy automation at scale, and leverage large language models to unlock the power of data. Over the past few years, these companies have unleashed new accelerators that redefine the expectation of time, of cost, and the risks of modernization.
▶ 0:55:50This is not hype or promise of what's to come. These results are real and they're repeatable. So what does that look like in government? I'm going to leverage the examples that Miss Wrote and Miss Graves shared. That HUD project with the tools available six years ago.
▶ 0:56:08That process took multiple years and cost over $5 That effort did define a path forward, but today we could travel that path in months versus years with a tenth of the price tag because of the advancement of code assistance tools. The CBP project reference, they retired a 30-year-old mainframe that tracked imported and exported goods. They recently celebrated the retirement of that outdated system, but that took many years of work.
▶ 0:56:38Their efforts help pinpoint the types of roadblocks that must be eliminated to speed up future efforts. And both Miss Wrote and Miss Graves referenced an experience taken on by four agencies to share data. That initiative was a catalyst to identifying the types of efficiencies possible with cross agency data sharing.
▶ 0:56:59Today modernization success can be unlocked for every agency with continued leadership priority to remove barriers and leveraging the commercially proven products tools products and tools. It makes modernization less complex, less costly and importantly less risky. There's one additional piece of the modernization puzzle that should also be considered.
▶ 0:57:22To sustain a leaner, highly efficient operating environment, agencies require people who understand the new technology. Investments in upskilling the federal workforce and establishing expectations for continuous skills advancement are required for the as the government aspires to get maximum value from the technology it implements. This is the last piece of the puzzle to sustaining efficient operations.
▶ 0:57:48In closing, the keys to unlocking government efficiency through technology are actually in reach. By making modernization a visible priority, holding agency leaders accountable for making progress, and embracing commercial modernization tools, Congress and the administration can open the door to a new reality for achieving government efficiency. And I and I would now thank you like to recognize Miss Meyer for your opening statement. Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, right member Brown, and members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:58:18Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Erie Meyer, and I'm the a founder of the United States Digital Service, a former chief technologist at both the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Federal Trade Commission, and someone who spent my career working to make technology serve the American people more fairly and securely. I've helped veterans and students apply for assistance online. I've led efforts to root out fraud and abuse in the financial and tech sector.
▶ 0:58:48I've brought technologists, hundreds of them, into government to solve problems that matter, like streamlining seniors access to benefits and protecting children's data. I believe deeply in the promise of public sector technology. Done right, it can save money, reduce fraud, and make government work better for everyone. I've seen it happen. But what's happening right now under Doge is not modernization. It's chaos. And it's a chaos with a human cost.
▶ 0:59:18When Doge arrived at my agency, they didn't modernize anything. Instead, they broke the consumer complaint system that the CFPB runs per congressional mandate. As a result, at least 75 families facing imminent foreclosure of their homes were left in limbo. Service members could no longer submit banking statements to report being illegally overcharged in interest.
▶ 0:59:44More than 16,000 consumer complaints were stuck in the system with no path forward. Even congressional offices, your offices could no longer refer constituents to the CFPB for help. And the damage is harming industry, too.
▶ 1:00:01For example, Doge staff demanded god tier access to confidential investigatory data about the consumer finance market right as Elon Musk has been preparing to launch the X payments financial services product. In court this week, a federal worker submitted testimony that Doge had planned actions that would break a rate spread calculator critical to processing mortgage loans.
▶ 1:00:28She explained that if that tool broke, it would halt or severely disrupt mortgage lending across country. AI experts, security professionals, people who were working to protect kids online, stop fraud, and keep our systems safe have been fired or simply driven out. And while this is happening, Doge is centralizing access to some of the most sensitive data the government holds.
▶ 1:00:54social security records, disability claims, even data tied to national security without a clear plan or proper oversight. Further, I question the basic vetting of the AI tools they're using to analyze this data. Let me be clear, this is not modernization, it's a heist.
▶ 1:01:13The cheapest, fastest, and most effective way to modernize it in the federal government is to fund programs like the technology modernization fund and to get technical people into government and then to empower those people. They've taken an oath to serve and they want to do good work. The most expensive, slowest, and least effective way is to lose all of your technical talent.
▶ 1:01:37When our parents log into their social security accounts, they want to know that the people who build and maintain that system are qualified professionals who take security seriously. There's even rumors now that federal workers will be replaced by chat bots. At CFPB, I led research on chatbot performance in the banking sector. We found that some of the worst outcomes happened when people were trying to report fraud.
▶ 1:02:02Seniors got stuck in doom loops and wrote in to us to say things like, "I can't get a human on the phone. It's not modernization. It's abandonment." Doge is burning down the house and calling it a renovation. This this path is making government less efficient, less secure, and less capable of protecting the people it's supposed to serve. I urge this committee to look past the slogans and ask who benefits from these changes.
▶ 1:02:30Is the chaotic hatchet approach going to serve the public or will it serve private interests? I'm here today because I still believe in what's possible. I've seen dedicated public servants like the women next to me use technology to save money and change lives. When IT modernization is done right, it makes the government work better for everyone. Thank you and I look forward to your questions. Thank you so much. And I'll now recognize myself for five minutes. So my questions are kind of I think going to generally be to everyone on the panel this afternoon.
▶ 1:03:00Uh my first question is your opinion. Um what are some of the biggest barriers that obstruct change? Are we do you think it's procurement requirements, hiring processes, budget limitations, which we know that's not that's no or bureaucrats? What in your opinion what's the biggest barrier? We'll start with you Miss Wrote. Uh thank you chairwoman.
▶ 1:03:24Um, so when you when you really look at the barriers to change, it takes uh many things to happen, right? We've talked about the funding, right? Multi-year funding. Um, but it also is um, you know, the leadership, the project management. It's all of those things coming together. I think you mean bureaucrats, right? What's that? Yes. Bureaucrats.
▶ 1:03:44ma'am when you're trying to get something done and having that vision and here's what we're going to do and even that partnership with the business office because you're not modernizing technology for technologies sake there's also going to be a services outcome to that and the business has to be a partner in that I've worked on projects even since I retired supporting projects where the business would not come to the table well you know doing any technology modernization without having the
▶ 1:04:14business to help improve the services to automate a I'm gonna let I'm gonna let Miss Graves the next one so everybody can get it. I have a couple questions I want to ask Miss Graves. What's the biggest barrier? Uh I would say that the biggest barrier is probably uh the supports because it is working not working well.
▶ 1:04:42It needs to But meanwhile, we've got something else that's broken. Miss Kent, I would echo the support from the top. Every one of the successful examples that were shared had an agency secretary that leaned in and said, "We want to get this done and ensured there was funding, that we moved fast through procurement, and that the outcome was measured." I think the legislation that this committee has proposed actually um has some language to hold
▶ 1:05:12to actually measure that results are being delivered and hold individuals accountable and I think that actually moves the needle. Miss Meyer, I would agree with my two co-panelists specifically that executive sponsorship with the right goals in place. Things should simply just work for veterans. They just should. Um and there should be cover and support for making that come true. and it's difficult to even navigate the veterans website. I mean, it's crazy how difficult it is. Um, and then Miss Meer, we'll start with you and we'll work backwards.
▶ 1:05:42What is the single most important thing the Trump administration should do to me to modernize federal it? What is the one thing if you could do only one thing right now today and wave a magic wand? What is that one thing that would make a difference? I'm concerned that the reckless and dangerous approach is going to set us back. But what's the one thing you could do? I get what you would disagree with and your statement was very clear on that, but what's the one thing you could do right now to wave a magic wand to have this administration monitor our IT quickly? What's the one thing I would rehire?
▶ 1:06:1118F, which is full of open source software engineers, designers, and the people I called when I was cancelling contracts that were rotten to the core. They were the people that we could bring in quickly to keep things moving. Okay, Miss Kent, I would take that GAO list that is appalling and make it first priority and say plan it, fund it, and measure that it gets done.
▶ 1:06:34Okay, Miss Graves, I would take a portfolio view of that GAO list and I would look for common solutions that could uplift multiple agencies if they were And I will add on to Miss Graves and say that portfolio approach when you look at the cross cutting funding for across the federal government, you can achieve some efficiencies and address the gaps. What do you think about our procurement processes though like contracts?
▶ 1:07:00I'm I'm currently getting information about a particular contract where this big IT company has come in and they have like three four five times the number of contractors managing a very small group of technology workers within the US federal government and on top of that about half the employees we're talking hundreds of people here hundreds of millions of dollars in this contract hundreds of people just sitting on the backbench doing nothing so like I mean is this a thing that goes on in the government this kind
▶ 1:07:30procurement or contract. Um, so in my personal experience, I didn't have a lot of patience for that. I looked for, but it goes on, right? I looked for opportunities to say, "What are you doing? Why are you walking around with that coffee cup?" Miss Graves, is you see this kind of thing? Yes. A justification of of every person and what their contribution is to the project. It's something that the federal employees need to make sure have. Miss Kent, we're running out of time. real quick.
▶ 1:07:56I think the efforts that are being taken to for agencies to work more more closely with those who are providing the technology lets us eliminate uh maybe people who aren't delivering value. And then I do think uh my last point where we have to address upskilling the federal workforce to make sure that the technology that is being implemented they know how to get the value out of it.
▶ 1:08:20Miss Meyer, I think funding TMF is the only way to fight back on things like that because it incentivizes the right practices in a flexible way behavior. All right. I'll now recognize the ranking member for 5 minutes and 33 seconds to make it even. Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh the nonpartisan Government Accountability Office has been warning for decades that we need to improve management of IT acquisition and operations.
▶ 1:08:46One of GA's most urgent recommendations is ensuring that federal agencies have a skilled and capable IT workforce. This is a non-partisan issue. It should not be a partisan issue. Democrats and Republicans agree upgrading our crumbling tech infrastructure requires techsavvy professionals. And actually, the chairwoman and I have both worked on separate bills that aims to remove barriers and the red tape in the pipeline for IT talent.
▶ 1:09:13Yet this year we have seen more than 200,000 200,000 probationary employees cut across various federal agency in this name of government efficiency. Many of them are the exact IT and cyber security experts we desperately need to modernize government systems and to respond to cyber threats. Modernizing government systems is about more than just efficiency. It directly improves the lives of everyday Americans.
▶ 1:09:41For example, under the Biden administration, the IRS launched a free direct file tax website providing another option for people filing their taxes. However, the current administration is moving to dismantle this service. Across the federal government, similar consuming consumerf facing technology projects are being gutted, threatened to delay updates that would benefit Americans nationwide.
▶ 1:10:04So, first I want to thank you uh Miss Meyer for your courage in speaking out about what's really happening at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau under the banner of modernization. Um it's clear from your testimony that it isn't just a case of mismanagement. It's a systematic gutting of protections for consumers, veterans, and seniors. Can you tell us more about your work and why every American should be alarmed by what happened at the CFPV?
▶ 1:10:33Yes, and thank you for the question. Part of my job was to make sure that regulators were ready for big tech who was lurching into consumer finance. We didn't think it should be the case that if you have a brickandmortar financial company or bank, you should be playing by a different set of rules than big tech when they decide to offer one of these services. One of the first things that Doge did after they arrived at my agency was to fire every single technologist who we brought in.
▶ 1:11:00They'd come in from uh technology firms. Some were professors, a computer science. We have a a veteran who's expert in robotics. They were all fired in one fell swoop. And it was really concerning that the people who were supposed to be watching and protecting um to make sure that seniors uh all these communities that are typically targeted were not being unfairly exploited on these big tech platforms.
▶ 1:11:28while brick-and-mortar financial companies had to follow a different set of rules. Thank you. And so, let me ask you this. Can you tell us why having qualified modern IT workforce is not just important but essential to security, efficiency, and effectiveness of federal systems. Without the right people on board who have taken the oath of office, have completed their ethics vetting and have no other masters, you have serious questions about the conduct in place.
▶ 1:11:57Um, for example, the work of 18F and other open source projects in government have saved millions and millions of dollars in front of my eyes because we can reuse those um public artifacts. we can reuse the things that they have started uh in a way that is just not possible on some contracting options. Uh the other big benefit is they can help with hiring.
▶ 1:12:20My team hired 25 technical experts and we were able to collaborate with technical people from across the government to streamline hiring to get technical people in faster pulled hiring and I think most of those people that we worked with are now gone. I don't know how you would do that now. Thank you. One of the promises of technology modernization is to make government services more accessible to all Americans, especially underserved communities.
▶ 1:12:47Um, can you speak to some of the consumerf facing aspects of government technology modernization that we have come to rely on and explain the impact that federal staffing cuts have had on these programs? I'll use one specific example. There's a team of technical experts who worked at the Social Security Administration, the Office of uh uh technology transformation. Their entire job was to get rid of wet signatures, to let people file things online or over the phone.
▶ 1:13:15They were all fired at once without any notice. And what that means is, the reason I found this out is because a friend said, "My mom's having a really hard time getting through to the Social Security office. Do you know anyone?" Um, I reached out to friends I knew that had worked there and they said, "You know what? She's probably going to go have to stand in line because the people who would fix this kind of thing aren't there anymore." By the way, I just got fired. Um, it was devastating. Well, thank you.
▶ 1:13:44Um, again, as I stated before, this is not a partisan issue. We must work together to ensure that the government's technology is modernized to strengthen cyber security and to keep Americans data secure and improve um customer service. So, thank you, Madam Chair, for the extra couple seconds. And with that, I yield back. Thank you. And I will uh now recognize Representative Maguire for five minutes. Uh thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 1:14:12It is no secret that our government is not as efficient as it could be or should be. A large part of that inefficiency stems from outdated technology. Um, outdated systems not only stifle efficiency but also leave us vulnerable to security and operational risks. So, a question for all the witnesses, yes or no? Very simple. Uh, modernizing legacy IT systems in the federal government would improve efficiency. Yes or no? Well, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. All right.
▶ 1:14:42We're we're moving in the right direction. All right. President Trump implemented Doge to help modernize legacy IT systems in the federal government. Doge has been working hard to root out waste, fraud, and abuse within the federal government has taken steps to modernize outdated systems. In February, Doge highlighted the OPM uh retirement operation center where around 10,000 federal employees uh retirements are processed by hand using paper every month.
▶ 1:15:11This facility is located about 230 ft underground and paper files are transported to the mine daily in trucks where workers manually review, calculate, and approve benefits before sending the paperwork back to DC. I mean, it's 2025. So, a question for all the witnesses again, yes or no. Do you believe this is the most efficient way to process federal retirement paperwork in 2025? No. No.
▶ 1:15:41No, no, you guys are getting a great grade on your report card. All right. The mine filled with paperwork is indeed not the most efficient practice. A 2019 GAO report found that OPM failed to meet its goal of processing most retirement applications within 60 days between 2014 2017 largely due to reliance on paperbased applications and manual processing as well as insufficient staffing. So question for Mrs.
▶ 1:16:11Graves and Mrs. Wrote. Uh Mrs. Graves uh and Mrs. wrote, "How might agencies work with Doge to improve government w uhwide shared services?" We'll start with Mrs. Graves. I think that the most important thing that we need to do is look at that portfolio of systems that we have in the federal government and identify common solutions.
▶ 1:16:35And once we identify those common solutions, we can create shared services to support those solutions over time and let the agencies avail themselves of these commons solutions. And I would add on, it's not just the shared services. When you look across the federal portfolio, there are oftentimes agencies that work together, four agencies, five agencies on a particular mission.
▶ 1:16:59So looking at that portfolio, there's opportunities even beyond shared services to really improve how the agencies work together and provide those services. Thank you. We don't have a lot of time, but a question for all the witnesses and we'll start with Miss Meyers. Uh where large-scale federal IT modernization efforts have failed, what in your opinion are the primary reasons for those failures?
▶ 1:17:24I think people need to spend more time listening to veterans and seniors about what their experience is like. Many agencies I've worked with had never watched someone try to use their system before. And in some cases, a backlog existed because the person kept hitting submit over and over again, not because the whole system was broken. So, I think sitting down and listening to our seniors and our veterans directly as they try to use services would make a huge difference. Thank you, Miss Kent.
▶ 1:17:51If I'm using any examples of what failed, managing the scope and the initiative to what they started with and holding the agency accountable for delivering on the project as it was intended um is one of the areas where we have seen things deviate a and change as they worked through the project and not rechecking that initiative against the intended outcomes for which the project was started. Uh Mrs.
▶ 1:18:21Grace, I think the thing that I would emphasize is the fact that um many of these portfolio programs are dependent upon different funding streams from different agencies. And what we have to make sure happens is that the coalition holds together as the program is executed so that each funding stream that is part of that total equation is actually there and ready for use when the program reaches the need for it. Thank you.
▶ 1:18:50M I would add on that I've seen where leadership priorities when leadership turns over when there's changes whether it's a CIO level or at the front office and the support isn't there for the project to sustain it year-over-year whether there's funding or not but making that a priority that's where I've seen some of these large-scale programs fall apart. Well, thank God we got President Trump and Elon Musk and Doge taking it seriously. If a government was a business, it would be out of business. And with that, I yield back. Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 1:19:20I now recognize Representative Ensari for five minutes. Thank you, Chairwoman. Elon Musk claims that he's tackling government inefficiency and improving the technology that the federal government relies on, but there's been no evidence that Elon Musk and Doge uh there's been no that they're modernizing or improving anything. In fact, they're weaponizing access to Americans most sensitive data under the guise of innovation and in the process turning the federal IT systems into a playground for reckless amateurs.
▶ 1:19:50In just a few months, Doge has bulldozed basic data protections, handed over sensitive information to unvetted AI companies, and exposed national security systems to potential foreign threats. Now, they're wreaking havoc at the Social Security Administration, a lifeline for millions of Americans. And according to whistleblowers, DOA is actively sabotaging social security operations by cutting staff, disrupting IT systems, and launching an ill-prepared overhaul that's nothing short of a data grab.
▶ 1:20:21They are reportedly illegally throwing a massive database by pulling data from across the federal government with zero oversight or legal authority. In my view, this is a systematic attack on Americans privacy. Miss Meyer, Doge claims it can rip out and replace the Social Security Administration's decade old IT system, which is critical for processing Social Security payments in a matter of weeks. SSA experts say it will take at least 5 years.
▶ 1:20:50Miss Meyer, in your expert opinion, is it even remotely possible to replace a missionritical federal IT system in weeks without a plan, without preparation, and without experienced professionals? No. And Miss Meyer, why is that? It's because the data we're talking about is not some abstract concept. It's the concrete details of my mom's life and finances. It's her home address. It's what how she hopes to survive during her retirement.
▶ 1:21:20Sloppy and chaotic destruction of systems and ex exfiltration of data introduces risks that are hard to conceive of. much of this information it's not it's um immutable data. She will never have some of these facts be different about her.
▶ 1:21:38And when you consider that happening at scale to a audience that is often already targeted for fraud and scams, we're introducing an extraordinary amount of risk to some of the most vulnerable people vulnerable people in the country.
▶ 1:21:52modernizing systems should be done with people who are committed to security and um modernizing using the most important protections that we have in place to protect our seniors data and Doge is also reportedly handing over federal job functions to IT solutions that use AI. How does the use of AI in place of federal workers hurt not just the workers themselves but the American people at large?
▶ 1:22:20I think when people reach out to a government office for help, they want to get that help. I think that when things break or you get stuck in a doom loop or you get an answer that doesn't make any sense or something isn't answering the question you asked it, it's incredibly frustrating. I think that um research has shown that many of the modern AI systems can continue to contain hallucinations. I believe in technology. I believe in public sector technology.
▶ 1:22:49People like Grace Hopper and Katherine Johnson who worked for the government when they led the future of science and technology. I think slapping together unproven tools on the services that veterans and seniors are counting on is totally insane and reckless. Committee Democrats have been told that DOE is combining sensitive legally protected information from SSA, the IRS, HHS, and other agencies into a singular unauthorized mega database.
▶ 1:23:19Doge staff are walking around with backpacks full of laptops loaded with access to different federal systems and American sensitive data, stitching together data that by law must remain separate. This isn't just dangerous, it's blatantly illegal. The Privacy Act was designed to stop exactly this kind of overreach. DOA's bulldozing those legal safeguards, putting American social security data, health records, and tax information at risk, all without oversight, consent, or justification.
▶ 1:23:46So, Miss Meyer, does DOE seem to be complying with the Privacy Act in its creation of this cross agency master database? No, ma'am. And when you were the chief technologist at CFPB, would you have ever been allowed to access and merge sensitive data from across the federal government into one centralized system using backpacks full of laptops collected from different agencies? Never. It's unheard of. And Miss Meyer, why would you not have been to?
▶ 1:24:14Part of the way that we keep data secure is not by giving access to people who do not need it for their job function. I worked with every single part of the bureau as an executive of the agency. That does not mean that I needed every piece of data, every piece of personal information from every single division in order to work. It was important for security that we were each constrained to not have more than we needed. It makes you a target for attacks. It introduces other risks to people.
▶ 1:24:40And it was it was unfathomable even for modernization that you would start and end with slapping everything together in a janky database. Thank you. So I yelled back. Thank you. I'll now recognize Representative Berles for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair.
▶ 1:25:04Um, having worked in in the private sector in IT for 20 plus years, I've seen it all. I've seen a lot and I've seen a lot of waste. Um, but I can only um how wasteful the federal government is when it comes to software contracting. Um, the uh, Mrs.
▶ 1:25:23Kent, the Department of Housing and Urban Development moved from a legacy common businessoriented language application to a more modern codebase with tools that are available six years ago. That process took multiple years and cost over $5 million. You stated that the that effort if it were to be done today would it would take months versus years with a tenth of the price tag. Can you elaborate on that? Certainly.
▶ 1:25:53When that when we started that project and it was a project under the technology modernization fund, the agency was using the code assistance or code translation tools that were available at the time. And what they were doing was actually testing the accuracy of the ability to go from 11 million lines of code, which was the set of applications to uh more modern, which by the way, they got it to 3 million.
▶ 1:26:18But the tools at that point in time only had about a 75 80% accuracy, which meant somebody actually had to go in and translate, you know, hands- on keyboard, do the rest of that work. The tools, uh, and then my written testimony had some examples. Um the tools that are available now the code assistance tools are operating at a 97 and 98% accuracy in many cases. Um they are also significantly less expensive.
▶ 1:26:47So as the t as time has passed the um those tools have become less expensive. So I use that as an example it the work at the time was important. It was groundbreaking and it was a step forward for HUD. But as we think about other agencies who haven't taken those steps forward now, the complexity, the risk, the time and what it will cost us will be significantly less.
▶ 1:27:14Well, working in the health care system in in IT and IT procurement. Uh we would often have vendors that would go to the different agencies and we would have situations on occasion that would pop up where one department wasn't talking to another department and the the vendors love this because they get to sell an organization both products, right?
▶ 1:27:40Two different completely different products from different companies for the same solution all being very wasteful. is is is that something that occurs regularly within the federal government? Unfortunately, it does. I think that's why some of the efforts for visibility, clarity, and the discussions with many of the vendors looking at as Miss Roach pointed out the government as an enterprise as a whole.
▶ 1:28:09There were um efforts that I took on as federal CIO to actually bring that visibility across government um and clarity to what agencies were buying and more importantly what they're using and that is an effort that needs to continue and I think we have seen uh members of Congress actually put forth some legislation to help and to make that a um something that agencies are held accountable for but also in changing the dialogue with many of the vendors that serve the
▶ 1:28:39government. Making sure that we are looking at taking that enterprise view. Yeah. One of the axioms when you're in that world is that the more that the the client um wants to customize and not change their processes, the more expensive and the longer it's going to take. Um do you have and I I'm thinking of the VA, the the implementation of the electronic medical record of the VA.
▶ 1:29:04From what I'm told, it was required that they have a completely new site uh customized site for every location in the VA. Um do you have any insights on on that or um Mrs. wrote.
▶ 1:29:19I don't know if you have any insights or the to to my question is who is minding the farm when it comes to or kind of wrangling these agencies in because it's it's just a common desire to want to force the code to adopt to your processes as opposed to adopt the best practices and the processes of the industry. And so, do you get what I'm what I'm asking? Yeah. Uh yeah.
▶ 1:29:47So, so I get exactly what you're saying because um part of the challenge is when you have you want to standardize say on a case management system, right? That is not just about the technology that you're modernizing moving to some case management. The business has to be a partner and has to be at the table.
▶ 1:30:04And that's where when you talked about the processes weren't modernized, this is where when you're trying to automate, you're trying to, you know, technology is the enabler, but unless the business has a seat at the table for one and they want to be there, they have to be a part of the solution. That's the only way that you're going to improve and get better outcomes on the end.
▶ 1:30:25And I've I've done this in practice um exactly that where I've had challenges with the business on being that good partner and I've also had good business partners where we were able to move very quickly move to say a case management system where you automated and where you had better results for the the services you were providing. But you see customization rampant throughout the federal government. M I'm seeing a head nod. Yeah.
▶ 1:30:54Especially as we're talking about modernization on those older systems. Absolutely. And that's expensive. Outrageously expensive. Thank you. Thank I yield back. My time is long expired. Okay. And we're uh we're stalling. So we want to wait for a minute or two. I'm going to ask is it okay with you? I'm going to ask a few questions while I wait for your colleague to come and do his five minutes. Um he should be here any minute now. Uh again my question is for the panel. I'll start Miss Kent with you.
▶ 1:31:20How important is modernizing our technology, government technology, uh due to cyber security threats? Like what kind of vulnerabilities by not modernizing does this put us at from a national security standpoint? Thank you for that question.
▶ 1:31:38Um I I think both you and the ranking member made points about cyber security and when you look at what is spent in the federal government much of those funds are around securing these outdated systems.
▶ 1:31:53So the the um whether we look at cyber or we look at the quality of the services that are delivered also many of these older systems when we change something it takes a long time to do it and we do that with less accuracy with many of these outdated systems. Um you've al also heard some things of unintended consequences. We don't understand clearly sometimes where they're connected.
▶ 1:32:23Um there was a question from Mr. Maguire about retirement and paperwork and wet signatures. We also saw those during COVID. We saw systems break where we did not understand the connectivity. So it it costs us in security, it costs us in dollars and it costs us in the quality of services that government can deliver. Does anyone else want to also comment, Miss Graves? Yes.
▶ 1:32:48I think uh one of the things that we looked at when uh Miss Kent and I were working together at OM was the establishment of an inventory of your high value assets. What are the most critical assets with the most critical data that if that data is leaked or if that data is misused would cause significant harm and then we put those on the master list to actually become more cyber secure and to take them into a modernization effort earlier rather than later and make sure that we were addressing
▶ 1:33:18those um based on priority. Um, I think that went a long way toward uh helping people understand how important it is. And a lot of people who are in federal agencies don't necessarily understand the cyber aspect of the mission system. They understand what the mission system does, but all of the wrappers that go around it are equally as important.
▶ 1:33:43Miss wrote, I'll add on um that even when you have legacy systems, there are steps you can take to mitigate and and minimize those cyber threats. Like one agency specifically where they have a legacy mainframe. They did put on the front end for the login for the public and staff authentication. At least that's something better than nothing when it was a login and password.
▶ 1:34:09So, on top of of what my colleague said, there are steps you can take, but it is hard. Um, and that doesn't mitigate the entire threat, but at least it's a step in the right direction. Okay, Miss Ber, did you want to chime in on that at all? Yeah, I I agree with what's been said. I would also say that even when we're not talking about highv value assets, sometimes a lot of very boring data when put together can be really dangerous.
▶ 1:34:32So, one of the things that I think is really tough is that there is no cloud-based password management system available to feds today. Right now, feds are emailing each other shared spreadsheets titled passwords and I'll let you guess what's in there. And it's really password 1 2 3 4. Yes. Over and over again. And in whereas modern systems, we can buy software. Anyone can buy software that says, "Hey, this password's been compromised. Hey, this isn't strong enough." and to protect them. And I really hope feds get access to those tools, too.
▶ 1:35:04Okay. No, I'll I'll do one more round of questions as I'm dying about this while you get your remarks prepared. One more minute. Um the advent of of AI and what it could be used bigger, better, faster, more safer, more secure. Just comments on I just we have so much money the government can spend. There's just so much opportunity here to invest in high-speed tech that can help us. Why aren't we using AI to make it all better, faster, more?
▶ 1:35:32Miss Kent, AI brings lots of potential. Um, but it still requires someone who understands the mission and all the requirements of responsible security, those things are exactly the same.
▶ 1:35:49and many of the AI tools wi will bring that efficiency um and we have significant opportunities but but that has to be coupled with mission intent understanding of the data and people who understand how to use that technology. Um I I think we are seeing successes across private sector because they started earlier and focus on improving those systems.
▶ 1:36:19We have that same opportunity in government to move more quickly and to operate with intent. Okay. And I'm going to now recognize Representative Subraman for five minutes. Thank you uh Madam Chairwoman. I um great to be here and thank you for this very important hearing.
▶ 1:36:35I uh I have a lot of um folks in my district who are actually um IT experts who do a lot of great work for our federal government and and so they often took um lower pay uh to come to the federal government to lend their expertise and from talking to many of them uh right now they're um their morale has never been lower and at a time where we need to modernize our IT systems when you have the best technologists uh in our federal government or at least
▶ 1:37:05working with our federal government. I'm worried that we're going to have a brain drain when it comes to technology expertise and so I know some of you have worked in this space in the past and um you know one of the groups that you know I really enjoyed working with in my time in the Obama administration was was ATF and on March f 1 Doge eliminated 18F. Uh I'm just curious Miss Meer do you know about ATF and could you tell me a little bit about some of the important work that it does? Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:37:34Um, 18F is a team of federal workers under oath, most of whom left the private sector or other high-profile jobs in academia or elsewhere to come serve their country. They often took pay cuts, and the work that they do exclusively makes things cheaper, faster, better, and more reliable. Um, I've worked with them on a number of different projects.
▶ 1:37:59every single time they touched a pro project, at least for me, it was millions of dollars less than it would have been. One time there was a contractor that I was working with and they just clearly could not do the technical work. It was just obvious that they were unable to do some basic technical tasks and the contracting officer at the agency said, "Well, if you cancel this contract, we don't have enough time to start a new procurement from scratch.
▶ 1:38:25Like, it's just impossible." and we were able to s sign an inter agency agreement to get 18f in which allowed us to cancel the contract with a firm who was maybe great at winning contracts but not great at actually delivering and I'm really worried about that capacity being missed and um some of the work they were doing is improving access to national weather service data modernizing our tax filing system and this was deemed non-critical but would you consider a group like ATF I
▶ 1:38:55think not only they themselves are critical but their presence in the federal government to help every other critical agency would it was critical too and and um the US digital service I believe you worked there um is now the US doge service I believe and uh they were doing really important work as well and I'm just curious um you know what what can we do to support the work that they were doing and move that forward at this point yeah so
▶ 1:39:25uh I understand that your your subcommittee has been excellent at connecting with whistleblowers. I'm contacted every day by feds, excuse me, um who are trying really hard to uphold their oath of office to the Constitution, and you all are a body that they really trust. Again, in a bipartisan nature, this group is really fighting to help um the United States be safe and secure and work properly.
▶ 1:39:48So I think continuing to work with whistleblowers, I think it was devastating that every single designer and contracting expert at the US digital service was fired at once. Um when I talk about listening to veterans or seniors to understand how something works, that was the team that would have done that. When we talk about buying technology that works rather than buying people who could kind of sit around, those contracting experts are the exact people you want in the room. And I think that morale is really low.
▶ 1:40:15I worked in the administration when Trump was the president the last time and people were still able to help people. So, they were willing to work with whatever party. They don't care. They don't want to talk about politics at work. They want to talk about veterans. They want to talk about helping people. Um, federal it should be boring. It should just work. We shouldn't have to think about our taxes. It should just happen. But I have found that people are really devastated and torn and are really struggling with how to uphold their oath of office and how to get this really important work done.
▶ 1:40:46And and one of the things I that I did in the administration you did as well was try to attract and retain great technology talent within the federal government and also forge connections with with great contractors who can do great work as well. Um, I've heard from a lot of constituents that that's who are technologists who say now they would never work for the federal government given what's going on now.
▶ 1:41:11Um, what can we do to reverse course on that and what can we do to attract technology talent? I think it's critical that this body and every oversight body very carefully respond to the violations of federal law. I think people don't want to be asked to do illegal things at work. I think they don't want to be asked to exploit people who are just trying to pay their bills and survive.
▶ 1:41:37I think careful oversight of where the law has been broken, enforcing the laws that are on the books, this doesn't have to be creative. Whether it's the privacy act, any of these rules, making sure that they're upheld and not letting people off the hook would give people confidence that they really can come back and serve and will not be asked to do inappropriate things. Thank you. In closing, I want to thank our panelists once again for their testimony today.
▶ 1:42:02Um, and with that and without objection, all members will have five legislative days within which to submit materials and to submit additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. If there's no further business, without objection, the subcommittee stands