▶ 0:11:35Jacob subcommittee at Africa will come to order. The purpose of this hearing is to examine the ongoing conflict in Sudan, its devastating humanitarian consequences, including widespread displacement, violence, and external involvement, and to review the conflict's root causes, developments, and the responses from the United States and the international community. I do myself.
▶ 0:12:00Over the decades, aspecially our panel knows, the people of Sudan have been subjected to unbearable pain and suffering and loss of life, even slavery. Since the 1990s, I have been a vocal advocate for human rights, democracy, and stability in Sudan. And soon after Republicans took control of the House, um I chaired a hearing in 1996 on slavery in Sudan and Moritania.
▶ 0:12:29Today there is a dire crisis again in Sudan necessitating a global call to action. I went to cartoon for example in August of 2005 to pres to meet with President Omar al-Bashir and other government officials a number of people from the faith community to press for an end to the genocide in Darur. The meeting was necessarily contentious.
▶ 0:12:55Bashir denied any wrongdoing or complicity in the killings the Darur genocide in 2009. However, and I point this out, Bashir was charged by the International Criminal Court with committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. And in 2010, he was the first person ever charged for the crime of genocide by the ICC. After meetings with Basher and other government officials, I visited two refugee camps and many of you have done that. Many of my colleagues have done that.
▶ 0:13:25Those two camps I went to uh in Darur were Kama camp and I stayed overnight at another called Mukjar in western Darur. An experience that profoundly motivated me to do more to end the mass violence. When our helicopter landed at the remote Mukjar camp, thousands, and I mean thousands, a line was formed of these wonderful people, women and children dancing, clapping, singing beautiful African traditional songs.
▶ 0:13:52The people of Darur have a remarkable generosity and spirit and it was all inspiring. Just about everybody I spoke with however especially the women told me personal stories of rape, senseless beatings and massacres by the Jeanjou and Sudin militias. I was deeply impressed with the dedication of the African Union peacekeepers operating under extremely difficult circumstances and urged international partners including the United States to better equip them.
▶ 0:14:20I was shocked to learn they were getting a little over a dollar a day. It was absurd. I went to Condisa Rice upon my return. I said, "Please, we've got to augment that. We got to increase it. Uh these these soldiers are putting their lives on the line. Uh they should not be uh so grossly underpaid and under not getting the kind of needs that they need to in terms of munitions. In November of 2005, I shared another hearing in a series on Sudan. It was absolutely clear that the situation in Darur was a genocide.
▶ 0:14:51At that time, over 400,000 killed and over a million dis displaced. Uh we did stress all of us at that hearing the need for a comprehensive plan that can best contribute to peace and hold those who have murdered, raped, enslaved, and plagued the people of Sudan accountable.
▶ 0:15:07Meanwhile, Chairman Henry Hyde, Donald Payne, who is my ranking member from New Jersey, Frank Wolf, Tom Lantos, uh, and number of others, we pushed the DAR for peace and accountability act that declared that the slaughter in Darur was genocide, imposed sanctions on the malign actors, uh, talked about helping the peacekeepers, and it was signed into law in October 2006.
▶ 0:15:30That law was built upon the Sudan Peace Act of 2001 and the Comprehensive Peace in Sudan Act of 2004. I also, and I wasn't the only one, called on the Arab League to leverage its influence over the Sudanese government by encouraging the government to end its military offensive in Darur and accept a United Nations peacekeeping force, which was there under the opices of the AU. Uh they didn't do it. It was it was like crickets.
▶ 0:15:57We we got almost no response at all other than thank you for raising it. So here we are again in January 2017 again on this committee. I objected to the Obama administration's decision decision to ease sanctions on Sudan. I know it was had to have been a tough call. You know we're always trying to look when the sanctions become counterproductive. Uh so you know there was an argument to be made but I thought it was the wrong one.
▶ 0:16:22uh because Kartum's government continued pervasive human rights violations and we pointed out at the time the violent government actions against the Sudin citizens in Darur, Nubia, the Nuba mountains and blue Nile alongside the persecution of nationwide. I was also disappointed in 2024 by the decision to allow Sudin warlord Abdel Fatal al Bhan into the country for a meeting with the UN Secretary General.
▶ 0:16:50Bhan, as we all know, has massive amounts of blood on his hands and should never been allowed into the US. Yet, the Biden administration delayed and denied robust sanctions against both Burhan and Hamemedi, delaying such actions until the administration's final hours. So, we're glad when they did it, but we believe I believe many of us believe it should have been done sooner. There will never be peace in Sudan until there's accountability for the atrocities committed by the twin butchers of Darur.
▶ 0:17:16Over 18,000 civilian deaths have been committed since 20 23 with estimates as high as 150,000 and more than 10 million people displaced. These are not just numerical estimates, but it's the evidence of an appalling range of harrowing human rights violations and international crimes. Each murder or displaced civilian is a person with dreams and hopes, family, person whose life has been taken or irrevocably changed by these atrocities.
▶ 0:17:45Both the Sudin armed forces, SAF and the rapid support forces RSF are guilty of arbitrary killings, detentions, abductions, rapes, including the rape of children, repression of fundamental human rights. Illicit gold mining and child soldier recruitment. elicits Sudin gold which the RS RSF struggle struggles smuggles I should say through the UAE is crucial to preventing the continued funding of Hmedi's atrocities and perpetuating this bloody conflict.
▶ 0:18:16The RSF's main international backer is widely reported to be the UAE which has supplied weapons and financial support. Other external actors such as Chad have been accused credibly of enabling arms transfers and have been implicating and supporting the RSF. Domestically, the RSF has allied with some of nonRSF Jean Joued militias.
▶ 0:18:36It is clear that RSF is is grappling with command and control, however, allowing its fighters to rape and to pillage, to target vulnerable women and children, and to attack civilian infrastructure. This is the opposite of capable government, and such behavior only confirms this to the Sudin people.
▶ 0:18:54The SAF has received support from various domestic groups including the Albara battalion known as the popular resistance which openly espouses a militant Islamist ideology and former rebel groups including the Sudan's liberation movement under many Minawi and Mustafa Tambborower. Externally the SF has received support from countries like Egypt, Iran, Qatar and Turkey.
▶ 0:19:23Russia continues to pursue naval access to Port Sudan. I'd like to now welcome my distinguished colleague, Miss Jacobs, for any opening comments that you might have. Well, thank you, Chairman Smith, and thank you to all of our witnesses joining us today to testify and bring attention to the ongoing catastrophe in Sudan. Last month marked two years since the outbreak of war in Sudan. It is now the largest humanitarian crisis in the world.
▶ 0:19:52Nearly 25 million people, half of Sudan's population, are facing acute hunger. And more than half a million people are facing famine. More than 13 million Sudin have been displaced from their homes since the conflict began, including nearly 4 million people forced to flee across Sudan's borders as refugees. And I have seen this suffering firsthand when I traveled to Chad and met with Sudin refugees last year. And let's be clear, this is a war of choice.
▶ 0:20:21The rapid support forces and the Sudin armed forces and allied militias have waged this war, committing war crimes and holding the Sudin people captive for their own selfish interests and their external backers particularly the United Arab Emirates with their support to the RSF in addition to Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Russia have turned this war into a regional proxy war by supporting and arming either side risking further regional destabilization.
▶ 0:20:51But despite this, the Trump administration is nowhere to be found. In fact, the administration's actions have only worsened the suffering of the Sudin people. The Trump administration's sham foreign assistance review was really just a pretext to end most foreign assistance, like food aid, disaster relief, global health programs, development and economic aid, and more. In Sudan, it's meant cancelling millions of dollars in US funded life-saving aid.
▶ 0:21:21For instance, before it was illegally dismantled, USAD was supporting the heroic efforts of the Sudin emergency response rooms to open community kitchens and provide basic meals to Sudin civilians throughout the country.
▶ 0:21:35Following the massive cuts to US foreign assistance, which included USAD support to the ERRS, more than 80% of the roughly 1500 community kitchens across Sudan have been forced to close their doors, cutting off vulnerable Sudin civilians from life-saving food assistance. And the administration hasn't stopped there.
▶ 0:21:57Yesterday they announced over $87 million worth of canceled humanitarian programs, including $30 million for emergency nutrition, water, and food aid in Darur. The SAF and the RSF continue to commit atrocities against the Sudin people, and the people of Darur are facing a second genocide in 20 years at the hands of the RSF.
▶ 0:22:20Yet, despite the clear need for the United States to play an active role in negotiations to end this brutal conflict, the Trump administration has failed to dedicate the resources necessary to do so. More than four months into President Trump's term, the administration has still failed to nominate an assistant secretary for the Bureau of African Affairs at the State Department, an NSC senior director for Africa, or a special envoy for Sudan, a position that the administration is required to fill by And just
▶ 0:22:50yesterday during Secretary Rubio's testimony, he actually refused to say the word genocide and reaffirm reaffirm his previous statements that the RSF is in fact committing a genocide. These actions or lack thereof show that Sudan is just not a priority for the Trump administration. And while the administration ignores the conflict and its human consequences, it chooses instead to provide weapons to the UAE, a country that is arming the RSF, fueling the war and facilitating a genocide indoor war.
▶ 0:23:21There is widespread and credible reporting that the UAE continues to funnel arms to the RSF, even though the UAE continues to deny this publicly. But instead of pressuring the UAE to stop arming the RSF forces currently carrying out a genocide, the Trump administration has chosen to blow through a congressional hold by ranking member meeks and proceed with arm sales worth more than $1 billion.
▶ 0:23:45Just as I did under the Biden administration, I believe that the United States needs to use its significant leverage with the UAE to pressure them to finally end their support to the RSF. That is why I along with ranking member Meeks introduced joint resolutions of disapproval last week to block the administration's arm sales to the UAE.
▶ 0:24:05If the United States wanted to, we could take tangible actions and make sensible policy decisions that would help bring an end to the war in Sudan and a sustainable peace agreement that ends military rule, establishes a civilian government, and provides a clear roadmap to democratic elections. Instead, this administration seems to be ignoring the problem and selling weapons that are fueling genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansing. The Sudin people have enough.
▶ 0:24:33It is time for the United States and the international community to step up and focus on bringing an end to this war so that the Sudin people can finally rebuild their country. Thank you, Chairman Smith. And with that, I yield back. Thank you very much. We are very pleased to welcome a distinguished panel of experts to provide insights on the ongoing crisis in Sudan and its farreaching consequences before us today. We're we look forward to your recommendations in terms of policy.
▶ 0:25:03Um I do believe you the um secretary of state said both before the Senate and before our committee uh in answer to questions that he um you know would welcome a special envoy. We have a sense of the Congress resolution because it is required by law but to to do just that. Uh I know that special envoys and the key as you mentioned a moment ago Ken Issac's um is he has to have or she direct access to the president.
▶ 0:25:32It has to be it can't go through a bureaucracy and you know it ends up on you know somewhere over in Foggy Bottom. We got to have that kind of access. And I'll never forget how well a person like Senator Danforth did uh who had the gravitas and the ability to promote peace. Of course, peace remains elusive, but he did an amazing job I thought at the time and as did some of the others had those jobs. So, I do think that's something that is evolving and will happen.
▶ 0:26:01It should happen yesterday, but uh it will happen, I believe. So, let me introduce first of all Ken Issacs, who's vice president of programs and government relations at Samaritan's Purse. Mr. Isaac brings over three decades of experience responding to some of the worst world's worst and most urgent humanitarian crises from war zones to national disasters. He is also former director of USAID's office of foreign disaster assistance.
▶ 0:26:26So he he knows how it works on the inside of our government and I deeply appreciate that kind of expertise. uh he led relief efforts in response for example to the Indian Ocean tsunami the Darur crisis before and uh I remember a whole group of us responded u to the tsunami uh and if it wasn't for the work that was done by disaster relief by our dart teams and everything else so many more people would have died even though it was a quick um I mean I I never saw anything like
▶ 0:26:56it we had a bipartisan group who went uh to Sri Lanka and other places and it was just so thank you for that leadership. It's extraordinary. We'll then hear from Cameron Hudson, senior fellow of the Africa program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Mr. Hudson has served at the highest levels of government, including as director for African affairs at the White House National Security Council and as chief of staff to multiple US special envoys for Sudan. So, what a perch you have to Oh, thank you.
▶ 0:27:26Uh in order to say what needs to be done and thank you for that. He also led the US Holocaust Memorial Museum Center for Prevention of Genocide. And then Ms. Kude K, founder and director of Confluence uh advisory. Ms. K is also the host and co-producer of Spotlight 249, Sudan's first English language political debate show created to engage in a new generation in political discourse.
▶ 0:27:55I don't want to debate you. So, thank you for being here and please take such time as you uh you know there's no clock. We we really need to hear what you've got to say. So, I'd like to now recognize Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ranking Member Jacobs. Um this hearing has been um long needed, and I'm grateful that even in spite of late night that I was able to come together today.
▶ 0:28:26So, I've been working in uh Sudan for 32 years. I have had uh the privilege to um know all of its leaders uh and u seen the inner workings of much of as what has happened. When I look at Sudan today and I just want to ask the question, is Sudan in a crisis right now? It is near collapse on all levels.
▶ 0:28:49political security, economic, social, humanitarian, health, uh, food security and infrastructure. Uh, this war has been going on since 2023 and it is essentially between two armed groups, the Sudan armed forces and a heavily armed militia group, the rapid support forces, which it's worth noting previously the Januite in Darur.
▶ 0:29:13and they were reformed under security reforms that um in the cartoon process I think in 2015 was when they really started upping their game and that came with EU funding and um a a lot of people don't dial into that but nevertheless it is an experiment that didn't work well and today uh they have come to the level where they have now challenged the um the SA armed forces and there's a horrible civil war going on
▶ 0:29:44uh the level of human suffering is horrible. Over 13 million people are displaced. 4 million have fled to other nations. Uh the death rate, as you said, is somewhere between 28 150,000 people. I think that those numbers are probably an understatement. 638,000 are in phase 5 IPC. That's uh technically they're in famine.
▶ 0:30:07And uh we proved that uh through a detailed statistical analysis which was submitted and uh reviewed by the famine review committee. Uh there's an additional 8.1 million in phase 4 food insecurity. That's near famine.
▶ 0:30:23U it has been famine's been declared in both our four and south cordan states and there's 17 additional locations at risk of falling into famine in the total and all that is 24.6 Six million people are highly food insecure. The um uh I have seen the effects of famine on individuals, communities and nations. And the one point that I would point out about Sudan, it is totally a man-made failure. It is a man-made famine.
▶ 0:30:53And um last year what we started seeing in March, well actually it was in um uh yeah last year hundreds of thousands of people were pouring into Cordan State and they were coming into a state that had a 41% decrease in crop production. But why were they coming there? They were coming there to get away from the fighting that was going on in the RSF attacked areas. I know this because um we had staff there. We interviewed them.
▶ 0:31:23It was a very exhaustive process. It took about four months. And u those people's lives were in immediate risk. I have some photographs here. I don't know if it's attached to the paper, but this is what the famine looks like. These are photographs that uh staff Samaritan's Purse took. And uh this is rampant. These are just two pages of photographs. I have hundreds of them.
▶ 0:31:50The Janjaweed was formed around in the early 2000s by President Basher as a way to control insurgency in Darur. Uh what they are known for is chaos, brutality, and savagery, killing. They're very brutal force and that DNA has been carried over to some extent in the rapid support forces today. Their mandate has always remained the same.
▶ 0:32:18Although their geographical assignments have been sent reassigned from time to time, the current civil war has seen the RSF position itself against the very state that created it. I would concur with you on the command and control of the RSF. I think that it is so shaky that even if they entered into a peace agreement, it's not likely that they could enforce it even with the best intentions.
▶ 0:32:45And um as you know tribesmen have come all the way across the Sahel and and joined the fighting and I don't see any structure uh for pay other than whatever you can get is yours. Uh so it's it's a very very chaotic situation.
▶ 0:33:01And what we have noticed also over the years, over the last two years, is that when you look at maps of displaced people and refugees, they flow out of the RSF areas and they're going to SPLM North area and then they'll go into SAF areas when those areas are one back. In um September of last year, I had an idea. We we identified this one area in Western Cordan.
▶ 0:33:28It's in the written testimony, but uh the malnutrition rate in household was upwards of 50%. And uh kids were dying, people were dying, they were starving to death. We had people that had eaten grass to the point where the raw grass couldn't be digested and it had ripped through their organs and and they were dying. Um we came up with the idea of airdropping food and it was that desperate of a situation.
▶ 0:33:54I uh had the opportunity to meet with President Salvakir and I asked him if he would talk to General Bahan and ask for permission. He did two days later. Uh Bahan agreed and uh that led to a protracted negotiation. It took us about three or four weeks. Uh there were trips to Port Sudan, trips to Juba. In the end, we had a written agreement for 30 days to fly planes from Juba with food and airdrop that food in uh what's called Juloud in Kadugi.
▶ 0:34:25It was challenging, but the program went well. At the end of 30 days, the parties came together. We extended it 60 more days, and in the end, we aird dropped 252 tons of food. I will have to say that the humanitarian access was fully given by the Sudan People's Liberation Movement North and by the Sudan Armed Forces. Everybody abided by the agreement. The reason that I'm making this point is that agreements can be made.
▶ 0:34:51um they are open to um humanitarian access and they at the same time have legitimate security concerns. When I was in Port Sudan, the government of Sudan asked me uh if I would go look at Gdarf, which is a city over in the eastern part of Sudan. Gdarf was an interesting situation in that the population is normally 1.5 million. Displaced people fleeing the RSF fighting had come into the area and the population was 3 million. The obstetric hospital was full.
▶ 0:35:21We were seeing three to five patients in a bed. So we set up an emergency field hospital there. This is Samaritan's Purse and it was done with private money, not with any government money. And we treated uh thousands of people. And we were like delivering a lot of babies and uh most of them by cicerian section. I think we delivered about 506. We had 9,149 patients and 562 babies.
▶ 0:35:47Um that work went very well and I will have to say that the government of Sudan was very supportive. uh and you know it was difficult getting visas and travel permit and we're landed in at us and it's electronic and a lot of the frustrations that they had honestly were limited bandwidth and I didn't realize that until I drove through Port Sudan one day by the office of immigration there were over 2,000 people I estimated crammed into a little parking lot waiting to get into the building and I realized oh they have
▶ 0:36:18stepped away from whatever their administrative infrastructure was in cartoon when they uh fled that city. So the security and the humanitarian situation in Sudan is truly a crisis and yes an enormous amount of humanitarian assistance is needed. But the key issue is we cannot dig ourselves out of this hole or change this situation with humanitarian assistance.
▶ 0:36:41the war must stop and that's going to require uh persistent intentional uh political involvement and um that is really what's needed is uh to do that. You mentioned a special envoy. I second that notion. I think it needs to be an envoy that has direct access to the president of the United States caring gravitas and um why should America be involved in Sudan? An interesting question, right?
▶ 0:37:11What's our interest there? I think that if our foreign policy is built around governance of democracy, human rights and humanitarian assistance, we have a weak foreign policy. We we need to have foreign policy that's more forward-looking and it needs to be transactional to the extent that we have some business relations. We have other relations besides wagging our finger and telling people what to do.
▶ 0:37:39When I met with General Bahan, he was very clear. He was expressly clear. He wanted American businesses to come to Sudan. He wanted American businesses to help on the Red Sea. He wanted American businesses in his petroleum and his mineral uh extraction industries. And he didn't pull any bones about it. He just said it directly. When I look at the Red Sea and I think of real estate, location, location, location, the Red Sea is not so wide.
▶ 0:38:09On the other side are people that we're attacking right now, Houthies, because they're destabilizing that whole region. I think the argument could easily be made that anywhere on the Red Sea is of strategic value. The Russians are setting up some kind of military base. The Iranians have been there. This is north of Port Sudan. I don't know what those details are, but if the United States isn't involved, then it's a vacuum. And I think that if we find a way to be involved, and I think that we should find a way to be involved. I think it would be good.
▶ 0:38:36I have not seen sanctions work in North Korea, in Cuba and Iran. They're just not working that good. And I think that we need to find a new way to bring peace to Sudan. And that is not going to happen if we don't have serious intervention. That's the end of my Thank you, Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Jacobs, and distinguished members of the Subcommittee on Africa.
▶ 0:39:06Thank you for having me participate in today's hearing. It's an honor to be here, and I commend the subcommittee on f for focusing on this urgent and evolving challenge. Um, and in particular, I want to thank both the chairman and the ranking member for your long history uh on this issue and for uh doing what you have done in recent months to to shine a light on the the drivers of this conflict.
▶ 0:39:28The views I express today are my own and should not be attributed to the Center for Strategic and International Studies, my employer, and I would like to request that the full text of my testimony be submitted for the record. With that objection ordered. Thank you. As the title of today's hearing lays bare, the ongoing crisis in Sudan is indeed dire and is worsening by the day. Now into its third year, we see in full relief the consequences of a distracted, disjointed, and anemic international response.
▶ 0:39:57We are faced with a conflict in which no corner of the country is safe for civilians. Where battle lines now shift by the hour. Where every single neighboring country is playing a role by both bearing the costs and reaping the rewards from this conflict. Where civilians are sacrificial pawns in a game between generals and ambitious regional states.
▶ 0:40:20And where horrific humanitarian conditions now threaten the lives of more people than the fighting Two months ago, Sudan's army retook the presidential palace in central Carum, signaling what many of us hoped would be a turning point in this war by retaking control of the capital. But in a war marked by momentum shifts, these army gains have been no sooner eroded and the very nature of this conflict transformed by the introduction of more advanced weaponry.
▶ 0:40:50Sudan is today an international arms bazaar and the war itself has fully transformed into a battle for influence among a host of local and regional actors who seek economic, geopolitical and strategic gain in the context of this war.
▶ 0:41:06This fight is existential for both sides and we are seeing that both sides are prepared to do whatever it takes, ally themselves with whomever it takes and purchase weapons from wherever they must in order to emerge victorious.
▶ 0:41:21To illustrate this point, in a matter of days this month, Sudan army drones purchased from Turkey bombed an RSF air base in Nala, the capital of South Dar State, reportedly killing as many as eight Emirati military officers along with mercenaries, local press reports from Colombia, Kenya, Ethiopia, and South Sudan.
▶ 0:41:42This is in addition to mercenaries that had been documented as fighting on on the side of the RSF from Chad, Libya, Nishair, Bkina, Fasau, and Mali. The following day, the RSF countered this attack some, 1200 kilometers or sorry, miles away in Port Sudan using their own long-d distanceance and kamicazi drones.
▶ 0:42:04Drones from China transferred via the UAE through a field hospital covering as a military base in eastern Chad. This was a sophisticated aerial operation requiring planning, coordination, and targeting between forces based hundreds of miles apart on specific targets inside a crowded city.
▶ 0:42:28These are skills that we know the RSF does not alone possess and demonstrates that this war is no longer a conventional ground campaign with predictable battle lines. As troubling as the conflict and its humanitarian consequences are inside the country, its suspension and ultimate resolution are unlikely to come from the belligerent themselves.
▶ 0:42:50The parties remain unwilling to engage each other directly and for a host of reasons, there is currently no civilian leaders that have emerged with sufficient influence to govern a new transition. Instead, we must directly engage the regional parties who are supporting the two sides to advance their own political, economic, and strategic ambitions. There is no single country better placed to do this than the United States. And it isn't too late to add Sudan to our agenda.
▶ 0:43:21However, rather than appointing a Sudan envoy whose efforts are focused inside the country, as some have suggested, we should also acknowledge where the power to end the fighting lies and realize that the Trump administration has already a fully staffed Middle East envoy team in place that is well positioned to take on this issue. As a first priority, the Trump administration must engage its allies in the United Arab Emirates about deescalating and suspending their support to the RSF.
▶ 0:43:50It strains credul for the UAE to continue to deny any role in this conflict. But make no mistake, the UAE are not alone in fueling this fight. And while suspending their support is necessary, it is not a sufficient condition for ending the war. That's why the Trump team should initiate an honest conversation among all of our allies across the region about the risks and rewards they face in Sudan.
▶ 0:44:17Such a discussion would reveal that the United States, the UAE, and other regional act actors active in Sudan like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey harbor many of the same concerns and share similar interests in Sudan.
▶ 0:44:32avoiding the country becoming a failed state, preventing Sudan from once again becoming a nexus for international terrorism, arresting a further degradation of Red Sea security, and avoiding a return of Islamist leaders to a position of authority in the country. I believe these are all shared concerns among regional allies. The people of Sudan deserve to see their democratic aspirations supported and the promise of their popular revolution fulfilled.
▶ 0:45:00But that conversation is unlikely to succeed until the guns go silent and those fueling this war are made to understand that an absolute military victory is simply not possible. If Washington does not use its influence that it has and initiate a deescalatory dialogue with the region quickly, we will be left with little choice but to begin preparing a containment strategy for the forces that will surely lead to the breakup of Africa's third largest country. Thank you very much.
▶ 0:45:31Thank you so very much. Without objection, your full statement as you asked and same with Mr. Isacson and Miss Gar is yours. Thank you very much, Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Jacobs, Honorable members of the Africa Subcommittee. Good morning. I know you've all had a very long night, and your presence here is this morning's a testament to your commitment to Sudan, and for that especially, I thank you. I also like to thank your staffers for their efforts in keeping Sudan on this committee's agenda.
▶ 0:45:58Congress has been a vital champion for the people of Sudan throughout the decades of Islamist rule under dictator Amar Bashir through the revolution and the transitional period and was quick to condemn the 2001 coup that derailed the path to democracy and put Sudan on a trajectory towards this devastating war. In the interest of time, I'll be summarizing the points in my statement already submitted to the committee and will focus on humanitarian situation and atrocities. This hearing comes at a crucial time.
▶ 0:46:22I think we all recognize that Sudan is now the world's largest humanitarian hunger, displacement, and protection crisis all at once. This apocalyptic situation is caused by this counterrevolutionary war led by factions of Bashier's security regime now at war with each other.
▶ 0:46:37As the heirs of Bashier, the Sydney's armed forces and the rapid support forces are using every tool in the Basher playbook, including ethnic mobilization, genocide, the use of chemical weapons, and the policy of starvation as a weapon of war to capture the levers of Bashier's lucrative security state and position themselves to decide the political and economic future of Sudan.
▶ 0:46:54They are currently incentivized by their ambitions, their foreign backers, and their domestic political constituencies, in particular, the broad church of Sudan's Islamists to keep the war going for as long as possible in the hopes of eroding the calls for democracy, accountability, and civilian rule. All the while, humanitarian needs continue to mount, and Sudan is potentially facing another failed agricultural season. Famine, announced months ago, has not had the required international or national response.
▶ 0:47:20This is in great part because the Sydney's armed forces denies there even is a famine and the rapid support forces has systematically destroyed hard one harvests and looted food stocks. The international community response has been criminally woeful with the UN's humanitarian response only 13% funded 13. To make matters worse, the UN's inexplicable decision to treat the Sunnis armed forces as a de facto authorities has made the entire international humanitarian system complicit in the starvation campaign that the staff continues to wage.
▶ 0:47:50The difference has not paid off. Access blocks, movement restraints, holdups, holding up of permits, all hallmarks of the Basher playbook are all being used to devastating effect during this war with only few exceptions. The only bright spot has been the volunteered humanitarian response rooms um and the emergency response rooms, excuse me, and other mutual aid groups who not only are providing the lion's share of the humanitarian response in terms of providing food, medicine, safe spaces, and evacuations, but they're doing so with far fewer resources and under immense
▶ 0:48:20repression from both waring parties. The US has been the largest humanitarian donor in Sudan, and the generosity of the American people has quite literally kept people and hope alive. With little clarity around what US foreign assistance will look like after September, in particular, with the shuttering of USAD, there will be a greater crisis and potential cliff edge in terms of funding. The life-saving work of these responders could see clinics and community kitchens a lifeline for so many close if no new or alternative funding is secured.
▶ 0:48:50This war has also seen many atrocities committed by both sides characterize much of the violence that we're seeing. The RSF, an entity created by Basher regime to violently clear people off land and to commit genocide, has been doing exactly that. In West4 alone, the RSF have committed acts of genocide not once but twice against the Masalite ethnic group. The RSF have also run campaigns of terror, rape, and sexual slavery in central Sudan.
▶ 0:49:15And recent testimony from the ground points to the systematic targeting of men and boys based on ethnic identity. Meanwhile, the Sydney armed forces has been enacting systematic campaigns of indiscriminate bombings, often targeting civilians with the reports use of barrel bombs, of summary executions, and the United States government has concluded the use of chemical weapons. Neither party has ever faced justice for doing all of this before. And that decades long impunity continues to directly try drive atrocities today.
▶ 0:49:43All of this has been facilit facilitated by the steady gold for weapons pipeline that has gone into hyperdrive since April 2023 with ever more sophisticated weapons appearing in Sudan. Ground reporting from Darur, especially Nala, capital of South Dar, point to flights likely delivering material to the RSF, often going through Uganda, Kenya, and Chad. Recent research and flight tracker information shows that northern Somalia and Somaliand have also become transit points. All flights appear to come from the United Arab Emirates.
▶ 0:50:12Both frequency and volume of these has increased. The UAE's patronage of the RSF has drawn in Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt in support of the SAF with deepening rifts between these middle powers manifesting in their support to conflict parties in the Greater Horn of Africa with huge destabilizing potential. As Cameron mentioned, recently we saw an escalation um in the flights in the drone attacks on both Nala and Port Sudan.
▶ 0:50:39For me, the most important part of this is that we have seen foreign actors directly fire upon each other with Turkish Barakar drone operators firing on Nella and the UAE firing directly back um on these Turkish Barakar drone operators and injuring some of them. This shows a severe and very marked escalation in Sudan following from last year's escalation between um reportedly Egyptian um military um actors and the UAE as well.
▶ 0:51:08So we're seeing an escalation here with no signs of abating. Middle powers, in particular the UAE, need to be pressured to do business differently in Sudan as well as the broader region. Ending this war requires political agreements in place across all three levels of conflict, the local, the national, and the regional and international. This must take place within a framework that guides Sudan towards civilian government governance, a system that could finally discourage competition for power through the gun. It is clear that this war represents something of an end of an arc of history.
▶ 0:51:37Bashier's regime is consuming itself whilst trying to survive this war of succession. In the meantime, many more RSFs are being created. What comes next depends entirely on how this war is resolved. with a view towards justice, reform, and civilian rule, or more impunity and power sharing. With Sudan's history shows that there is no military victory likely, and that given the right conditions, all wars, even ones on this scale, end in a political agreement. So, what can be done? I'd like to highlight two recommendations.
▶ 0:52:06The first is for Congress to continue to put pressure on the UAE as it continues to supply weapons to the RSF using their genocidal campaigns. other US allies in the region such as Turkey and Egypt responsible for weapon sales to the Sudin armed forces should also be pressured to stop flooding Sudan with weapons that are used in targeting civilians and that myriad militias can use to wage their violent campaigns. The US must show diplomatic leadership instead of seeding ground to its predatory allies in the Gulf.
▶ 0:52:32This will require amongst other things a high level white house envoy to take the lead on Sudan to speak directly on behalf of the president with Gulf leaders. that's the only kind of level of envoy that they will respect. Deconlicting their interests and working with others to institute a holistic and inclusive political process that can pave the way for viable ceasefire talks. Secondly, and especially in light of the humanitarian and protection issues we've been discussing today, predictable and sustained funding for life-saving work to mutual aid groups is imperative.
▶ 0:53:02Programming for youth groups in Sudan's war affected regions is also key, lest the war be the only industry. Support to nonpartisan media is also critical, particularly in efforts to counter hate speech. And finally, I'd like to ask this council to continue championing the wishes of the civilians of in Sudan who wish to see a Sudan free from the scourge of war and with a political system that stops the continuous destructive cycle of war, death, disease, and conquest. Thank you for the opportunity to brief you today, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:53:32Thank you very much for your testimony and for your leadership. Um, a few questions. I'll yield to my colleague then might have some additional questions as well. Um Mr. Cameron Hudson I should say Cameron Hudson the um your point that we're now into the third year and we see the full relief consequences of a distracted disjointed and anemic international response.
▶ 0:53:56We are faced with a conflict with no corner where no corner of the country is safe for civilians where battle lines now shift by the hour where every single neighboring country is playing a role. uh what can be done to put a tourniquet on I mean it's been three years I mean my distinguished colleague John James who was our chairman of the committee in the last congress uh got a very important resolution pass HR res 1328 was totally bipartisan uh it condemned the RSF and the SAF
▶ 0:54:27atrocities call for an end to the war which is obvious urged the US to take immediate steps at the UN security council to document the atrocities support community based organizations um and support tribunals to hold the RSF accountable. Um I'm not sure how much of that was done uh by this Biden or now Trump is there, but he's only been there a few short months.
▶ 0:54:52Uh we're hoping this hearing and the fact that um Secretary of State who is tasked with so many jobs uh and is building out his own bureaucracy as we meet here you know he he has a lot to people he needs to get in place uh but time is of the essence. So, you know, u there's been three years as you pointed out where maybe more could have been done.
▶ 0:55:20Um um so I like when you said we need uh there's a desperate need of reinvigoration of a policy. Uh and I think this is the perfect time for all of us to do that. Um I know that when the Secretary of State testified before the Senate and before the House, he was very clear uh that they are talking to UAE. Matter of fact, my senator, senior sen senator from uh New Jersey, Senator Booker, uh pointed out that UAE is a vital ally to the US.
▶ 0:55:50Uh and then he asked questions about what we're doing. Uh and Senator Rubio said, uh we have expressed to UAE and other countries that they are turning it Sudan into a proxy war in destabilizing the region and threaten that threatens to spill over and make it worse. Um he oh we obviously have to do more uh and your very specific recommendations on what more we need to be done doing uh will be very helpful.
▶ 0:56:18I think you've done some of it, maybe a lot of it in your testimonies, which we'll we'll study very carefully, all of us. Uh but I think we this has to be the pivot point. Um if not, as you pointed out, by the hour, more people will die, more people will be maimed uh and abused and um and at some point it becomes even harder to put it all back together again because of the trauma and the PTSD and all the rest that follows such atrocities. So uh Mr. if you wanted to start and then I'll go to our two distinguished colleagues.
▶ 0:56:50Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's obviously a tall order. What more can be done? Um, I think where I have focused my my attention right now is as this war has evolved over the course of three years. Um, and as I reflect back on some of the initiatives of of the Biden administration, right, I think we had a very traditional approach with respect to a special envoy for Sudan under the Biden administration. We've had over a dozen special envoys in the past 25 years uh for Sudan.
▶ 0:57:18So this is not a new exercise for the United States. Um but I think we have to think differently about uh how we approach this diplomatically at this stage of the war. We saw a special envoy last year, last summer, um initiate what looked like a kind of traditional uh you know peace process or the the beginnings of a peace pro process trying to bring the parties uh around the table trying to uh support uh civilian voices in the diaspora as an alternative
▶ 0:57:48uh to uh military rule. And I think that's a formula that we have uh that we have used uh before uh in Sudan. But I don't think that this conflict is right now ripe for that kind of kind of traditional resolution. I think we have to focus on the drivers of this conflict outside of the country.
▶ 0:58:06There are a host of problems and a host of drivers inside the country that go back decades that go back generations that need to be uh resolved around uh the role of the state, governance, ethnicity, militarism, corruption, you name it, right? and and Holl talked a little bit about um that this is the the the last gasps of the Basher regime that are that are playing out uh in this country right now.
▶ 0:58:32But I think we have to focus at least from a US perspective because we're we're talking to the US Congress and we're talking about recommendations to the United States government. I think the United States government has a unique position to influence the regional actors in a way that no one else does right now. Right.
▶ 0:58:48And I think that uh focusing on all of the states in the region uh that are playing a role they are benefiting from this uh they are also um it is also costing them because when you look at the refugee situation in places like uh Egypt, Ethiopia, South Sudan it it is a burden Chad it is a burden on these countries. Um but elites in those countries are also benefiting uh from smuggling from from from this war.
▶ 0:59:14And so I think we can use our influence uh to to focus on these these regional actors in ways that that we haven't done before. And I think that you know having having worked on Sudan uh since the days of John Don Danforth and all the way through uh you know more recent envoys I can say that you know 10 years ago 20 years ago we would not have been discuss discussing the role of uh Egypt of Saudi Arabia of UAE.
▶ 0:59:42They were not a part of the conversation uh a decade ago. Right. A decade ago uh I traveled with with President Bush to New York. He convened an international summit around uh the CPA and about the secession of South Sudan. He convened an international summit as did President Obama about the genocide in Darur.
▶ 1:00:02There was a moment when the United States used its position on the world stage to convene the international community uh around the challenges that the world faced in Sudan. I think there is uh the opportunity for that kind of leadership from the United States. I don't know that it needs to be uh at the United Nations. I think that it could be within uh you know a group of Arab states and regional states within Africa and the Arab world that convene around this conversation.
▶ 1:00:31And as I said in my testimony, I think we have to acknowledge that all of these countries actually have legitimate concerns with the outcome of this war in Sudan. This is their region. This is their backyard. I think that they are in many ways uh undertaking the wrong set of policies to uh to ensure that their interests are met.
▶ 1:00:51But I think that rather than as as Ken said scolding countries for having these interests, I think we have to acknowledge that they do have these interests and acknowledge that we actually have shared interests uh in avoiding a worst case scenario in Sudan. Yes, there there will be things about the future governance of the country that we don't agree on, but I don't think that we can allow that uh to presuppose how we end this war, right? And I think we have to think about ending this war in stages.
▶ 1:01:19And I think we can all agree that we want a civilian democratic government uh to emerge from the from the ashes of this conflict. But until we can get to the ashes of this conflict, until we can end the fighting and silence the guns, I think it is premature uh to to to put it put out um uh a resolution uh for for some kind of civilian governance that is that is I think at least in the medium term and not in the short term. Okay.
▶ 1:01:50I agree with Cameron. Okay. Um I I think that you're looking at a society that has been ruled by militants. Uh it's ruled by militants right now. And uh anybody that comes to power is not going to have success if they don't have the respect and the ability to contain the military to some extent. So what this may mean is that there will have to be a transition from the type of governance that it has now to the type of governance that can be seen in the future.
▶ 1:02:19Um but the number one thing I believe everyone should keep their eye on end the war. Find a way to stop the war and I think uh bringing a a regional confluence of people together to share their views, see what their interests are and uh to use our political clout. This is one of the things that I think is actually good about the development portfolio of USAD being moved into the state department.
▶ 1:02:43These kind of things are uniquely political and a state department is going to be better prepared to handle those than uh outside negotiators. So end the war. End the Mr. care.
▶ 1:02:57Before you go to that, if you could also speak to you obviously pointed out, as did our other witnesses, this is the world's worst humanitarian crisis, world's worst hunger crisis, and you did point out and testify that, you know, the suffering is not incidental, and that the starvation is being used as a weapon of war. And this isn't the first time Mistu used it in Ethiopia with unbelievably telling effect.
▶ 1:03:23Um, even Elvorn Cararbach used it uh uh in his genocide against the Armenians just recently. Uh, we have I can be in a hearing right in this room where we had a prosecutor from the ICC say this is genocide. They're using food as a weapon and wiping these people off the map either by moving out of Norno back or or killing them. And now we're seeing it happen again. So, uh, your thoughts and again when when Mr.
▶ 1:03:49Isaac, you point out that that there are 24.6 million people that are food insecure. 8.1 million in IPC phase 5 technically famine and um 638,000 they went into five 8.1 million in phase four. I mean that these numbers are just atrocious and they didn't happen overnight. You know u they've been growing over the last three years or maybe longer but at least three years.
▶ 1:04:17But if you could speak to food as a as a weapon of yeah I'm happy happy to do that um I think you know one thing to note is that it's not the first time this has happened in Sudan either you know both Cameron and Mr. Isaac will will remember that this happened you know the Sudanese armed forces in the government in Kartum use this very effectively in what is now South Sudan in Darur in Blunal the Nuba mountains and other parts of Cordan so this is a very tried and tested policy by the um authorities in Sudan to effectively kill as many people for as you
▶ 1:04:47know little amount of money as possible bullets cost money starvation does not um there's another part of this which is that the Sudiniz forces in particular with their authorities in Port Sudan are using the limit limiting of aid as a way to assert a level of sovereignty as to a way to assert a level of um sort of governmentality in the eyes of the international community. It is it is by limiting access to different parts of the country. It is by limiting aid. It is by limiting visas. It is by limiting permissions that they're able to assert the sovereignty.
▶ 1:05:16They're not able to show the sovereignty in any other way. Certainly not in terms of responsibility. The RSF of course have been doing what they've always done which is rape, pillage, and steal. Um and so we have here in Sudan no currently no entity that is you know actually wanting to keep people alive unfortunately other than the groups I mentioned earlier mutual aid groups and emergency response rooms. Now I think what is clear is that within the US government actually USA ID understood this very well.
▶ 1:05:42USA ID has had decades of engagement in Sudan where it's a where it has come to the position where it's able to identify who the main you know actors are particularly in terms of not just aid provision but also democratic transformation and other key areas that we're speaking of today. My my fear is that with USAD being shuttered that that all that knowledge um throughout the decade will be lost and any new team particularly in the state department may not have that level of knowledge that is frankly needed to be able to read the scene properly.
▶ 1:06:08I want to very quickly comment on what you said about um you know USA uh sorry the UAE and also a comment to what Cameron said you know the idea that civilian rule is central to resolving the manifold issues in Sudan is not blue sky thinking. This is not about a kumbaya moment where we instill a civilian government uh for the sake of civilian government. Having a civilian government in Sudan is the most practical way of changing the structure of the government such that it is not through the gun that you compete for power but maybe through the ballot box.
▶ 1:06:38It is not by picking up guns that you get invited to the mediation table but by having a political agenda. Unless that formula is shifted very sharply, we're going to continue see the to see the proliferation of armed groups. you know, 20, 30 years ago, and Mr. Isaac in particular will remember, there was only one rebel movement in Sudan.
▶ 1:06:57But because of the way that peacemaking has been done, effectively rewarding those with the guns by asking them to come to the the mediation table at the exclusion of civilian groups, it has created a negative incentive structure that allows only um for for the people to really be represented through carrying a gun and through having an armed movement rather than a civilian um agenda.
▶ 1:07:18So I think we need to flip this on its head and actually now that this war has taken so much uh scope that has reached every part of the country, this is the time to try to write that formula when it comes to and correct that formula when it comes to um how peacemaking is done in Sudan. So sequencing is going to be very important. I don't believe we're going to get a ceasefire that lasts in any way unless we figure out what the political um issues are going to be unless we get a political solution.
▶ 1:07:43And when it comes to the UAE, but also Turkey, Saudi, Qatar, the UAE, you know, these are all US allies in the region that the US is, as Cameron said earlier, uniquely position to engage. And I think unless that engagement happens, we're not going to get very far. They do agree on many things. Unfortunately, one of the many things they agree on is that they don't want to see civilian government in Sudan. But I agree with Cameron, they're going about this the wrong way. It is, you know, the civilian rule is the synanon of peace in Sudan. without civilian rule, you're not going to get any kind of lasting peace in Sudan.
▶ 1:08:14Just for the record, was the Biden administration as engaged in this as it should have been? I think the short answer is no. Um but at least um what we did see was some level of engagement with um on the subject. Unfortunately, we haven't seen that under this administration, but I am confident that we will be able to see at least some movement, and this hearing is a a really good indication of that. That's why we're having it. Thank you so very much, Miss Jacobs. Uh thank you uh all so much.
▶ 1:08:43First of all, um many of you know we had a very late night or early morning or whatever you want to call it um of voting here in the House and a couple of my colleagues were unable to make it here but wanted to make sure their statements and questions were entered in the record. So uh Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the statements of Representative Jaipal and Representative Olshvski. Thank you.
▶ 1:09:04Um, so thank you all for testifying on this incredibly important topic and I commend the chairman for shining a light on the horrific war in Sudan that is not getting enough attention. I want to first turn to the dire humanitarian situation and highlight the heroic work Sudin civilians have been doing in the absence of a functional government. Miss Hayier, you highlighted in your testimony the important work of the emergency response rooms.
▶ 1:09:28You just talked a little bit about them now along with other mutual aid groups who have been providing emergency assistance and other essential services at a fraction of the cost of international NOS's following Trump's draconian cuts to our foreign assistance. 80% of the 1460 emergency food kitchens have been forced to close. Um Miss Kier, can you please explain to the committee why these kitchens were forced to close and the practical impacts of these closures? Thank you very much for the question.
▶ 1:09:58I think it's difficult to, you know, overstate just how devastating the the cuts were to these um to these kitchens in in in part it's because um you know there hasn't been unfortunately enough of a shift um internationally to understanding the value of these mutual aid groups.
▶ 1:10:13there's still very much this um sort of orthodoxy when it comes to delivering humanitarian aid through large INGOs or the United Nations which for reasons I mentioned earlier particularly when they choose to make or to choose to consider one of the um main belligerent groups the de facto authorities they are effectively self-limiting and unable to deliver in the ways that they are the emergency response rooms and other groups um that um arose out of the pro-democracy movement are uniquely placed because they are in communities to to make these deliveries but they have asked for three things they've asked for
▶ 1:10:44recognition as uh humanitarian um actors. They've asked for protection because they are being targeted by both uh waring parties and they've asked for partnership when it comes to delivering aid. Now under the previous administration um there was a recognition of the unique role that they played and there was a lot of engagement with trying to make sure that they're funded.
▶ 1:11:02Um but since the aid comes have come in um sort of since February, we have seen an immediate closure of many kitchens um in cartoon particularly but in other parts of the country because the way that these groups work is that they need little and often rather than huge sums of money as for example the UN might and so when that that sort of train of funding stops of course it has an immediate effect. The difficulty now is it's though some of that has been switched back on and we have seen some aid you know be a able to be delivered through these kitchens.
▶ 1:11:32Um some you know the issue now is what happens after September. The issue now is, you know, when it comes to these supply lines that are very urgently needed, especially in relation to health care and medicine, you know, how do you maintain that when you don't know what's going to happen in the next few months? We're also seeing the supporting structure around these emergency response rooms, particularly in the world and the UN also being impacted. Effectively, it's an industrywide um sort of sea change that is happening.
▶ 1:11:59And that ecosystem is going to be massively impacted and it is people on the ground who are going to feel that first and foremost. I'd also like to make very briefly another comment which is that a lot of young people in Sudan, young people make up the majority of Sudan. So a lot of the majority of Sudan are invested in these groups in these structures as a way to basically sew back the fabric of this war, the social fabric of this war that is being ripped apart by this war.
▶ 1:12:22If you take away that work, if you take away these structures, not only are you going to be impacting the ability for people to stay alive, but these groups, these young people may also find alternative ways to engage in this war. And those will be those may be in fact, you know, quite severe. They might be quite violent. They may be drawn towards other ways in which to engage in this war. So, I think it's really imperative that these structures are maintained. Thank you. Uh I agree with you and and we'll keep fighting to to get that funding. Um Mr.
▶ 1:12:51Hudson, as you laid out in your testimony, there is overwhelming evidence that the UAE is supplying the RSF with weapons that they are using to carry out genocide in the Darur region. Would you agree that there is evidence to suggest the UAE has provided weapons to the RSF without the consent of the original supplier?
▶ 1:13:15I I I can't comment on the relationship that the UAE has with um with China uh or what the end user agreement is. Um what I can say is that uh there there is uh a UN arms embargo that exists uh that is nearly 20 years old um on weapons transfers into Darur. And I think it's safe to say that the UAE is in violation of that um of that UN arms embargo.
▶ 1:13:43Um the only other country whose weapons have reportedly been found um in the possession of the RSF are weapons from the United States. Um these are reports from the ground. They have not been verified because we don't have access to those uh to those weapons. But there are local reports and anecdotal reports of US weapons having been found.
▶ 1:14:05Uh I would encourage this Congress to do what it can to investigate the provenence of those weapons uh to work with Sudin authorities uh or other authorities on the ground uh to get the serial numbers so that we can trace uh how those weapons came to be uh in Darur and in the possession of the RSF. Uh thank you.
▶ 1:14:27um very concerning um that there might be US weapons involved in this given the role that the UAE is actively playing in supplying weapons to an armed group carrying out a genocide in violation of a UN arms embargo under four with the potential that US weapons are themselves implicated. Do you think it is appropriate for the US to be selling weapons to the UAE while they continue to support the RSF?
▶ 1:14:55Again, I don't I I can't speak to um to our overall policy towards uh the UAE. What I would say is is frankly acknowledge um what Secretary Rubio said yesterday and the day before, which is we have a very full and complicated relationship with the UAE. Uh we have a very full agenda um with the UAE.
▶ 1:15:21And I think we have seen from the Biden administration uh over the past few years a a rather pugnacious approach to the UAE. It did not move the needle with the UAE. I don't know that uh a threatening approach to the UAE, frankly, is even reasonable from this administration.
▶ 1:15:42I think Secretary Gubio made it be very clear and we saw from the president's trip uh to the UAE just 10 days ago uh that there is a robust bilateral agenda. Will this administration decide to hold that bilateral agenda hostage to the UAE's support uh to Sudan or to the RSF? I I I doubt it. And so that's why in my testimony I suggest I think a a more realist approach.
▶ 1:16:10Um, it might not be the preferred approach or the uh uh uh uh the the more optimistic approach, but it is I think a realistic approach to acknowledge that all of these countries in the region, whatever role they are playing, they have an interest in what happens in Sudan, they have an interest in the outcome and to lay bare the the facts of that and to not pretend uh that these countries are not playing a role and to not pretend uh that their interests in Sudan matter less than our interests.
▶ 1:16:38I think we need to acknowledge, you know, very openly and freely what these interests are and look for a way forward um that is, you know, that is not necessarily punitive, that is not necessarily congratulatory, but that is uh honest and and realistic. Um thank you.
▶ 1:16:54And I think you're being a little diplomatic about the robust bilateral relationship um when I think it's clear what President Trump is worried about is the $2 billion Emirati investment in his crypto company and uh the Trump Tower that will be building be built in Dubai. But u Miss Cayer, same question to you. Do you think it's appropriate for the US to be selling weapons to the UAE while they continue to support the RSF? I think Sydney's people should not be held hostage to any US allies in the region and that includes the the United Arab Emirates.
▶ 1:17:24Um I think Cameron's right. I think that you know we are very aware we have been very aware under the Biden administration but certainly now that this is bigger than Sudan for the United States. It is about Israel is about the Red Sea. It is about um other corridors and Sudan in many ways is a very small part of that calculation.
▶ 1:17:42What I would urge is that the the United States as a government system including Congress but also um the administration really look at you know the price of um the its current engagement with its allies in the region and this is not just the United Arab Emirates although that is the most acute case but it's also the case with you know Egypt and Turkey um as a NATO ally um who are invested in this war you know war is big business Egypt is making a lot of money from Sudan both through the gold and through the gum Arabic that is smuggled there the United Arab Emirates of course is making a lot of money from the
▶ 1:18:12gold but also keeping options around Red Sea influence open. There are a lot of countries in this um in involved in Sudan. I think of it much more as a globalized war rather than a civil war. Um and unless the United States as the key ally to all of these countries really sort of grapples with and and I agree with Cameron honestly has an honest conversation with these countries about what their interests are, not just in Sudan, but we're seeing this play out in Somalia, in South Sudan, um in Ethiopia.
▶ 1:18:39Um unless there's an honest conversation about what this looks like, I don't think we're going to get very far in terms of actually making life easier and better for people in Sudan and elsewhere. Uh thank you. Um you know, I think one of the important first steps is for the US to actually use the leverage that we have and and as the biggest weapons seller to the UAE, I think that is very considerable leverage.
▶ 1:19:00Um, so you know, Chairman Smith and and any of my colleagues who are watching, um, I'd encourage, uh, you all to join my bill, the Stand Up for Sudan Act that would block arms to UAE until they stop arming RSF, as well as the joint resolutions of disapproval, um, that ranking member Meeks and I just introduced that would block over a billion dollars in arm sales uh, to the UAE. And I have them here. Uh, Chairman Smith, if you'd like to take a look. Uh, thank you. I back. Thank you very much. And um you know Mr.
▶ 1:19:29Isaac's you had you spoke about the emergency field hospital that at the request of the Sudan Ministry of Health uh you put uh set up for 87 days staffed by 93 people had nine over 9,000 patients um delivered for 562 babies and you pointed out that that's a a neglected and vulnerable demographic pregnant women and newborn children. Um, have there been other requests made?
▶ 1:19:57I mean, I think that's amazing that they would and not surprising though because they know that you go in, Samaritan's Purse goes in and just gets the job done. Uh, and and helps people who are most at risk, sick, disabled, or in this case, um, you know, the obstetric hospital you said was had three to five women in each bed. I mean, that is overcrowding on like few of us can imagine. Uh so that particular Yes. No. Go ahead.
▶ 1:20:26So that particular hospital um the the the community population returned to normal as people started returning to safe areas. But um I was with the president of our organization, Franklin Graham. We met with General Pan. It was very interesting. General Bahan asked us, would we go to Cartum and build a hospital? He's talking about brickandmortar real hospital.
▶ 1:20:48And Franklin said, "We would if you would let it be a Christian hospital." hospital and Brahan said yes that will be fine and uh so internally that is something that we're planning on doing. We're waiting for the security circumstance to allow it. Um but u they have indicated to us uh that they will give us humanitarian access where we need to go where we want to go and um we look forward to doing more uh in the Sudan area.
▶ 1:21:16Let me ask you, you said in March you had you met personally with the delegation in Sudan hosted by General Burham. Uh he made it expressly clear that he desired American involvement in his country. Uh and I'm wondering, you know, for American business diplomats, it's one thing that's they eat, sleep, and breathe conflict and and trying to mitigate conflict and and problems, but businesses want to go in and and sell their product or or whatever.
▶ 1:21:42Uh was he talking about those kinds of opportunities too and does he and others not realize that so long as there's this terrible conflict uh it's almost impossible to have any kind of foreign investment? My perception and interpretation of what he was saying at that time was expressing a a deeply rooted desire to see the American country get involved in his country.
▶ 1:22:10uh whether that involved uh business, whether that involved uh politics, whether that involved military, not from the perspective of fighting, but military from the perspective of utilizing the port up north. And um but my sense was that uh he sees great advantage in in American involvement and he would like to see that kind of influence.
▶ 1:22:34In fact, we talked about um when um Chevron Oil left uh the country, I think it was in probably around 1994, 1992, and uh there was some uh reflection on what would Sudan have been like today had that not happened.
▶ 1:22:53Um, so, uh, I think he's very open and I specifically he'd said, "I don't want to buy things from the Russians and I don't want to buy things from Iran. I'd like to do business with America, but America won't do business with me." How would you Thank you. How would you assess that is an opportunity? Say it again. That is an opportunity has Oh, I think it I think it's a clear opportunity and I have to tell you um having worked in Sudan for so long.
▶ 1:23:23I entered in in South Sudan many times I have been in caves under rocks and running from bombs coming from Sudan armed forces. I told General Bahan this. I have not been a fan of Sudan armed forces. I have been a responder to the carnage that has come about as an act of the war. When I look at the situation today and and what's going on, I think the country needs stability.
▶ 1:23:52It needs security and I only see one entity there right now until there's a transitionary period where there can be a civilianled government and that's what I would uh you know ultimately advocate for. And I just don't see the command and control in the RSF for that to happen. I see the command and control for SAF to happen.
▶ 1:24:12And u another interesting point that I will share with you is that the indiv the the animosity coming from individual Sudin citizens towards the RFS is uh enormous.
▶ 1:24:28Uh but the the the people that have been killed, the way that they were killed, the things that were stolen, the damage that has been done, um it it I've never quite seen that kind of hardness of heart, and I just find it very hard to imagine that the RSF would be able to um add a lot of value at this point after what's happened.
▶ 1:24:49Let me ask you um how would you assess the World Food Programs and other UN major organizations on the ground in Sudan today? Well, that's an interesting subject. Um I I I think all of the humanitarian actors on the ground could do more. um um you know there could be improvements in anybody's organizational structure.
▶ 1:25:18Uh but what I do know is that uh when we had the situation in Cordfan state in South Cordfan and West Cordan um we uh engaged directly with the parties negotiated the airbridge and then we had other agencies coming to us saying how did you get that airbridge can we use your air bridge how did you do that and we kept it as a muffled you know we didn't talk about it publicly uh but it was um highly successful so I I think in the future when I
▶ 1:25:49access into an area, I'll probably attempt to negotiate it on my own. Could any of you assess the risks that the humanitarian aid workers uh take by operating in theater? Uh I remember a couple visits with Salvakir in Juba when his own forces um uh made life miserable for humanitarian aid workers.
▶ 1:26:11Not only did some of his private military u go and and these are the people that guard him go and raid um humanitarian stockpiles but they also put people at grave risk. U is that a how big of a problem is that right now especially with all the blood letting that's going on? I would say gen everybody will have their opinions but I would say generally errant and unacceptable behavior frequently happens in war zones.
▶ 1:26:41That that's just a part of the deal. You hope that doesn't happen but the days of uh you have a white flag and you're protected because you're a humanitarian group. Those days are gone. And uh I I think practical down-to-earth negotiations with armed actors is required to gain access. And then you have to have trust in there. And that trust I can tell you in Sudin society comes from building relationships. It it you know so you would think as a Christian you're not going to make any progress in Sudan.
▶ 1:27:12It's the Islamic Republic of But that's not at all what I have found. What I have found is that um by demonstrating integrity, doing what I say I'll do, uh not surprising them, having private conversations behind doors and speaking their mind uh has built trust and uh we enjoy good relationships there today with people on all sides of the conflict.
▶ 1:27:35could and anyone want to respond to this that have the Sudanese authorities why haven't they handed Bashir uh and other former officials wanted by the ICC over to the court and we all recall that even when Bashir was planning on going to Turkey uh Erdogan made it very clear that he would not honor the request which the EU was saying get him to the Hague for prosecution and then he didn't go.
▶ 1:28:00China does the exact same thing, you know, in terms of inability to uh to in way enforce uh the the indictment and by bringing him to the H. But why has no one else I mean why do we know?
▶ 1:28:18I asked this very question of General Burhan uh in December and I can tell you what he told me um which was uh I I I didn't accept the answer but his his response was that they wanted to try uh General Basher in Sudan that that they wanted uh local justice. Um I made the point to him uh and this was in the context of a conversation about the return of Islamists uh in the country.
▶ 1:28:46his reliance uh to some degree on Islamist militias uh to aid the SAF against the RSF and the concerning trend uh that that I saw at the time and continue to see today that Islamists associated with the former regime uh would like to to see uh their own return to power uh eventually and are see as a a a way back to power um a kind of piggybacking on the the army and becoming a a a useful uh instrument.
▶ 1:29:15of the army. And so my uh demonstration my my request to him was to say you know if you truly want to distance yourself from the former regime if you truly want to demonstrate to the international community as you have said privately and publicly that you uh don't want to see the former regime return to power and that you want to uh put distance between uh the army and those those elements that the best way to do that to demonstrate to the world would be to turn uh president Basher over to the ICC and
▶ 1:29:46that would send a very uh clear signal and his response was well we we would prefer to try him at home and I think that the uh I think reading between the lines my interpretation of that was that um General Bhan is in a very very difficult position trying to consolidate his own power in the country the power of the army in the country and to a degree he is respon responsive to and in need of support from those former regime
▶ 1:30:16they are uh a distinct uh group, minority group but but a distinct and powerful group in the country and if he alienates them uh right now then he risks uh fracturing you know seeing the fracturing of uh of his own army and so he is in a very difficult position I think with with respect to Islamists and that's why he has chosen not to kind of poke the bear and turn president over to the ICC. Yes please. Of course. Thank you.
▶ 1:30:44I think the obvious answer is precedent. Bash Bhan does not want to set a precedent that a head of state which is he says that's what he is would be sent to the ICC less that same thing happened to him in due course. The other thing is that you know um there is there was an opportunity for the Bhan under the um transitional period of 2019 to 2021 to try President Basher. There was a sort of kangaroo court.
▶ 1:31:07I think they um they they sort of had him indicted on financial charges rather than genocide and all other serious charges which is basically the same as getting alapone on tax evasion. And what we're seeing here is there's no serious commitment to justice and accountability in Sudan at in all levels including from Bhan. The reliance on jihadi groups, the reliance on Islamist groups means that you know the the the decisions are not always um resting solely with Bhan. And so I would push back a bit against what Mr.
▶ 1:31:36Isac is saying which is that Burhan will tell any interlocator he faces what they want to hear to the great deal of extent. I'm you know I'm it's good to see that he is giving access to Samaritan's Purse. It's good to see that he's making these uh rhetorical commitments um to supporting the work of um Samaritans Purse and he says that he wants to get you know American businesses into the into the country etc. I am sure that he's probably saying the same thing to the Russians. I'm sure he's probably saying the same thing to the Iranians. This is how he's keeps himself alive.
▶ 1:32:04Um, President Basher at the time did exactly the same thing. This is the same playbook playing out. I wouldn't put that much stock in it. But also, you know, the binary is not helpful. This binary between SAF and the RSF. We have to remember where these came from. Bhan and Heimetti 20 years ago were fighting, you know, handinfisted glove against the people of Darur. They were committing genocide together. This is not a case of two entirely distinct groups. This there is a difference here without much distinction. And I think it would be very remiss of us to to not to bear that in mind.
▶ 1:32:34The RSF is today's enemy for the Sudin armed forces. In the meantime, they are creating many RSFs through, for example, the Baraban Malik Brigade, the jihadist brigade, through, for example, the Sudan Shield um group, which is becoming stronger. They've recently announced that they've grown in number. They have access to sophisticated weaponry. We're seeing the same thing that happened with the RSF play out there in essence and ethnic militia as well.
▶ 1:32:58So there is an incentive here for the Sudan forces to keep this play going because it in allows them to justify military rule which is in the end their main objective. They want to stay in power. If there is peace in Sudan, why would you need a military government? So of course you keep a war going you can justify your presence in government. WFP very quickly because I do want to make sure I speak about this WFP has been very slow to evolve to what what you know the conditions on the ground. I'm very glad that Samaritans Pur has been able to negotiate this access.
▶ 1:33:27I would love to see that you know sort of engagement being um made available to um other intern other international actors. It would be great to see Samaritan Spence for example work with WFP which is one of the few organizations despite their many failures to be able to have to build up the scale that is required to respond to the humanitarian situation. So I think here we need to see less competition between different humanitarian um deliverers and actually a lot more cooperation. Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 1:33:54ask um throw out a few other questions and then any other questions that Miss Jacobs might have. Um when you talk Mr. about the issue of u doing a local court. Um you ICC does not have a stellar track record of of getting its man even though Basher was in the crosshairs uh and probably will never go to the HG but we know from hybrid courts in in Rwanda especially the court for Sierra Leone and Yugoslavia.
▶ 1:34:23I mean, Charles Taylor never thought that he'd get 50 years for and we've had David Crane testify several times and Ellen White as well, uh, who were so instrumental in in that uh, and for others who committed these horrific crimes. Um, is that something that we should be talking about a a a tribunal for? Uh, I mean, if you leave it to the local, you know, just let their their own justice system handle it. U, uh, good luck with that.
▶ 1:34:51you know, I wouldn't want to be a juror on that, frankly, uh because it would be very dangerous to your health. So, that's one question. Then, if any of you would like to speak as to the relationship to Iran, uh and and China, what is China doing? U uh Russia probably is more preoccupied with Ukraine sadly. Uh but Russia, I'm sure, does have some interests like getting a port access to the port more.
▶ 1:35:19But but China we know is ubiquitous u in exploitation throughout Africa. They're everywhere and they're exploiting Africa everywhere. Uh so how are they moving in on this? And and finally um on gold we had a hearing and and a matter of fact a former staffer for our subcommittee for I hired him theory Dangala uh who has done amazing work on proving the relationship and and fighting against uh the precious metal of gold and how it
▶ 1:35:49funds uh the pro procurement of weapons and all the other things that kill people and um so it's an area where we need to step up. Uh we also focused on at that hearing uh how all of the frankly all of the uh um what do you call it cobalt for EVs is coming out of Dr.
▶ 1:36:09Congo uh through child labor and and slave labor 200,000 adults upwards of 40,000 some say 25 to 40,000 children all goes to Shing Jang in China then it ends up in the EVs and 25% of all the vehicles in the EU now that are EVs are coming from China on the backs of these little children. So, I mean, it's so lucrative for China to be here, but when you throw in the gold part, uh maybe could speak to that.
▶ 1:36:36And and I do have one other one, and that's on the the refugee flows. Uh Chad has uh nearly a million refugees. I mean, it's a refugee uh you know, it's just horrible. What has happened is so many people are either IDPs or refugees and that is does not help the countries that are trying to help these people. uh it's has a negative impact there. If you want to just speak to I mean all the more reason why there needs to be an absolute concerted effort to as you said Mr.
▶ 1:37:06Isix end this war end the war uh and but also step up the humanitarian side of it as So thank you Mr. Chairman. Um so I come back to what I said the war needs to be ended.
▶ 1:37:20uh war u excuse me the gold mining is um is very lucrative and I think the RSF after they were sort of officially enshrined uh they had a gold mine they sold it to the government and I believe that they got that back but the smuggling of gold uh that is going out of the country I believe is enormous I think that uh uh the Russians are deeply involved in it I think that the RSF is deeply involved in it and I understand that's the bas is of
▶ 1:37:51the business empire that Jame Hamemedi has has built is really around the gold and my contacts tell me that gold is is going through Dubai. uh the issue of uh China and what they're exploiting. They're very ubiquitous everywhere. And um uh I had the opportunity in uh 2006 to go to Shanghai and Beijing with CSIS for a two-eek uh and we just wanted to know what is China's African development policy.
▶ 1:38:21What we found is they don't have one. What they have are Chinese national interest. But there was one comment that was made at the last day in Shanghai by um a very senior diplomat. He said, "We have 800 million people with your equivalent of a high school education and they make less than $1 a day. We're going to send them out all over the world." So when you go into a place, it doesn't matter where you go in China. Go up to Port Sudan or not in China, but anywhere.
▶ 1:38:48There's Chinese people doing trade on the on the sidewalk. there's Chinese people going into the petroleum offices. Um, so China has a way to assert soft power through transactional processes that gives them enormous diplomatic influence. And uh I don't think that the US has a way that's not a level playing field for us. We can't do that for whatever reasons. And I, you know, I think that that needs to be explored.
▶ 1:39:16I'm not a proponent of exploitative transactional diplomacy, but transactions in diplomacies I think are have to go hand inand with us. And I think that we would be better positioned to affect change than and bring the war about um to an end. And um so that's probably enough that I'll say about that right now.
▶ 1:39:44so there were a lot of questions there so let me just sort of hopscotch over a few of them. Um you know with respect to courts I mean I think we're in the situation we are in in Sudan right now to some degree because uh justice has never been delivered for any of the crimes uh that have been visited upon the people of Sudan. We've been talking about justice in Sudan for for decades.
▶ 1:40:06Um, I fear that this this the era that you refer back to of international tribunals uh to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in in US and UN assess dues. Uh, I fear that that day is behind us um in the United States. I fear it also because we have lost our uh office of global criminal justice at the state department that was spearheading these kinds of initiatives uh and shining a light on these kinds of uh institutions.
▶ 1:40:33Um, and I think that the state institutions of Sudan have broken down. There are no courts uh in in Sudan right now. So, it's it's not realistic to think that anytime soon there will be any kind of justice uh delivered either internationally or or locally. With respect to Iran, I just I I want to underscore um you know, we don't I think understand the full extent of the relationship with Iran uh and Sudan right now.
▶ 1:41:01And I think that both uh the army and the Iranians uh take advantage of this idea that or seek advantage from this idea that neither of them are isolated diplomatically. So there is value in having that relationship just to say that we have this relationship. The Iranians take value in having a relationship in the Red Sea. Um and the potential on the horizon for potentially having a base there.
▶ 1:41:27Uh I don't believe uh I've heard in um you know candid moments from uh senior leadership in Sudan that they don't get anything from free for free from the Iranians and they don't get a friends and family discount on weapons from the Iranians. Uh that the Iranians you know play up uh their role in Sudan to be greater than it is uh for their own domestic political purposes and international uh geostrategic interests.
▶ 1:41:53So I think we to some degree both sides are overstating the degree that that Iran is a factor. I'm not saying it is not a factor. Um but I don't know that it is playing a determinative role in this conflict. It's certainly it's certainly a a factor. I think China uh we have seen uh much more of a factor in terms of the weapons that are being used on both sides of the conflict are largely Chinese weapons. Uh the Chinese have a diplomatic presence in Port Sudan.
▶ 1:42:21There are only a handful of countries uh that have a permanent diplomatic presence in Port Sudan. China is one. Um so they have been able to play a diplomatic role. Uh they have protected uh uh Sudin's interests at the United Nations. Um and they are benefiting they're profiting from uh from the arm sales that they have um that they have engaged in. Mr. Do you know what kinds of weapons? AK-47s, what?
▶ 1:42:48There have been a whole host of uh light arms, uh more heavy material, and now more recently, uh Chinese drones that have been active um in in the conflict, uh primarily on the side of the RSF, the Chinese drones. Um with respect to the gold trade, I think there's been a lot of reporting on this, public reporting on the extent of the gold trade.
▶ 1:43:11I think the the only fact that I think is uh is is is needed is to say that Sudan produced more gold last year in 2024 than it did before the war started. Right? So we have seen almost a doubling of Sudan's official gold exports since the war began. Right? This is what is being reported officially. Right? Those numbers are in the in the in the range of $3 billion a year.
▶ 1:43:39We know that the RSF controls its own gold mines in south Darur in north Darur. We know that in the eastern part of the country uh the the the army is controlling gold mines there. They are doing uh business in those gold mines with Russia and with the UAE.
▶ 1:43:57The UAE is profiting on both sides of this conflict because all gold in the country is funneling, as Ken said, back to um back to Dubai, which is again, I think, why why I'm I'm also skeptical of uh simply turning off the spot from from the UAE. The RSF is gaining and earning enough money that if it did not have privileged access to Emirati laress, it could go onto the black market with $2 billion.
▶ 1:44:25it can go and buy any weapons that it needs to sustain this war. So, uh we have to think I think really holistically about not just the kind of the the the drivers and the political um support that the the RSF is getting from outside but we also have to think about uh turning off the the the funding that is coming from not just gold but from gum arabic from smuggling from uh from all of the rest all in there. Thank you. Thank you. I think a lot has been covered. So, um, let me briefly say just underscore a few points.
▶ 1:44:55Um, in terms of local courts, you know, there's currently no sort of government functionality at any level in Sudan. That's become very clear. Um, and so expecting there to be any kind of fullyfledged justice mechanism, especially because that's always been deferred, particularly at a moment like this without infrastructure is, I think, um, you know, it's it's impossible really. Um, it's not just Basher. There are other ICC indictes like Ahmed Harun who has recently been made the head of um one faction of Basher's former party, the National Congress party. So these characters are very much alive.
▶ 1:45:25They're very much engaged in the politics in Sudan. They're being protected by the Sudanese armed forces um in wherever they are in the country. You know, we hear reports of them being moved around etc. But there is no desire, there is no sort of will here, I think from the Sudin armed forces to see any of these characters face justice.
▶ 1:45:40they are too valuable currently for them in terms of one the constituency with the Islamists and two the connections that some of them have to international actors for example the Iranians and and Chinese and Malaysians and Turks and others um just very briefly on the gold you know a lot of the gold it's it's exactly as you described Chairman Smith in what is happening in DRC you have most of the gold in Sudan is mined artisally that is on the ground mostly by very vulnerable people um and it is mined and
▶ 1:46:10then taken to the United Arab Emirates chiefly where the world's gold markets are um um and and sold for you know large amounts of money and so there are sort of many injustices that are happening here not just because this gold is used then to buy weapons to bomb these very people these very vulnerable people that are mining it in the first place but because the working conditions for these people are horrendous and the fact that the gold has gone up only indicated the working conditions have become become worse for these people and the longer the war continues the more the war economy will be entrenched and the more the conditions for these people will
▶ 1:46:40become more desperate. So absolutely something that requires um attention. Um there are there have been calls for example to set up a um sort of a fund uh very much like what the Europeans have for Ukraine where a lot of the gold the money that is being made out of gold it enters into a trust fund that is then used to potentially rehabilitate and and you know reconstruct Sudan later on. A lot more thinking needs to be done about how to do that.
▶ 1:47:04If some of these um you know uh flows of money can be arrested and put into this fund for later for later use that would be very very useful. In terms of the refugee flows I want to make sure we discuss this. The displacement has been you know the world's largest displacement crisis is in Sudan.
▶ 1:47:19um not just internally where there are 11 million um internally displaced but also of course externally in Egypt in Chad um in South Sudan effectively countries around Sudan that are themselves quite vulnerable and facing a lot of economic shocks shocks um we're not seeing any kind of uh sort of humanitarian support um to these groups that is very sufficient so for example in Ethiopia we're not seeing UNHCR the the UN's humanitarian um sorry refugee organization really respond to um
▶ 1:47:49the refugees there. We're not seeing the same um by UNHCR in Egypt. Um and the reason for that is the governments of Ethiopia and Egypt. They're not granting the United Nations and UNHCR the ability to adequately respond to the refugee crisis. Uh Egypt is making a lot of money from Sudanese people who are in um in in Egypt, spending of course a lot of money on rent, on food, etc.
▶ 1:48:11Um and we have even seen um Egypt sort of send them back to Sudan particularly as the Sydney armed forces has been making gains very much against international refugee recognized refugee norms of non-reform. Um so we need to see a lot more protections for refugees in the region in Chad in particular we're seeing that um the UN has not been able to fully um support people there and those people in particular are fleeing genocide. They're not just fleeing the war as people in other in other countries are.
▶ 1:48:39So I think an extra focus on this from the from from the United States is absolutely required. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Jacobs. Thank you. And I actually want to build on the the line of questioning Chairman Smith um was was uh asking. Um I am very focused on the UAE's role here because I think that it is large. But of course the UAE is not the only outside actor that is supporting belligerence in this conflict in order to advance their own objectives. You all have talked about some already, right?
▶ 1:49:09We've got Chad serving as the staging area for weapons and shipments from the UAE. We've got Kenya hosting meetings of RSF leaders uh during which they declared the establishment of a parallel government in Sudan. Obviously, we have Russia um siding with SAF. We've got Egypt continuing to provide military assistance to SAF. Um, reports suggest that RSF smuggles gold from Darur through South Sudan, Uganda, and Kenya to help uh finance its operations.
▶ 1:49:36We've talked about the role of Iran, the role of China, just a small sample. Um, Miss Cayier, can you describe how the influence of outside actors has prolonged the conflict in Sudan and exacerbated its consequences for the Sudin people? Thank you for the question. Um I think it's it's impossible to believe that this war would have gotten to the stage that it has the level of destruction and devastation if not for the role of of outside actors.
▶ 1:50:03Sudan has been extremely vulnerable to the predations of um not just the its neighbors but also um Gulf countries because it has never been able to set up a political system internally that is able to protect Sudan against this vulnerability. And so we're going to see unfortunately these countries pick at the carcass that is Sudan at the moment. Um and even as things getting get worse, they're not motivated by the humanitarian situation.
▶ 1:50:31They're not motivated by the risks of to atrocities, genocide, etc. And so there's actually no sort of potential end. There's no turning point potentially at which these countries pull back from the support that they're giving. Um they're giving very high techch weapons.
▶ 1:50:46what started off with as very sort of reasonably low tech war has suddenly become with the use of drone warfare from many of these countries Turkey um China Iran um and of course the transit countries that facilitate this this is be becoming very quickly a very technologically advanced war which means that we're going to see the you know sort of the impact on civilians um go through the roof for example previously a lot of civilians were fleeing war on at the front lines of the battlefield today RSF drones hitting key infrastructure,
▶ 1:51:16civilian infrastructure. For example, um water, water stations, power plants, um you know, ports, etc. means that actually um just any sort of normaly and a sort of human normaly and and normal life that is able to exist is going to be impacted, which means a no place is geographically safe and b that actually there's going to be very difficult to ek out any kind of normaly, any kind of normal existence for a lot of people.
▶ 1:51:41So the scale of this war would not be what it was what it is without I think that the engagement of these countries but what we have to understand is that war is you know we all know this very well war is big business and so all of these countries that are that you have mentioned are very much economically invested in this war and so unless the formula is changed unless this war becomes actually more of a liability than it is a source of revenue we're not I think going to see any of these countries as I say motivated by any of the humanit arian
▶ 1:52:11situations to, you know, enough to pull back. Thank you. Thank you all again for testifying and for everything you're doing for the people of Sudan. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you very much, M. Jacobs. Um, we're just about finished, but I do want to thank you so very much for your for your u just expert testimony. It gives us all guidance on both sides of the aisle as to what we need to be doing. Uh, we want to play a role uh hopefully a very constructive one. So, thank you. I can't thank you enough.
▶ 1:52:40Um just let me ask you if I could miss K. Uh is Ethiopia penalizing Sudin refugees because of the territorial dispute over Al Faga? So I think it's it's broader than that. Um the Ethiopian authorities, the Ethiopian government um has been in uh as you say in dispute over the Alfaga territory. Um this has been going on for decades. There was something of a gentleman's agreement between Mala Zinawi and Amar Bashir.
▶ 1:53:09um in the past that meant that um aleso was sort of left un addressed for the most part. Um that came to a head when there were changes in government um in both Sudan and Ethiopia. Um those tensions seem to have eased somewhat. Um but I think the issue is still on the table. But Sudan doesn't have you know these um territorial disputes just with um Ethiopia. It has them with South Sudan in the Abia region.
▶ 1:53:33has them of course with Egypt as well and Jalatin and there needs to be a formula for how to address these issues particularly for the countries around Sudan who get militarily involved in Sudan's conflict um including of course um South Sudan to a great degree and also Egypt. So we need to you know the solution the resolution to Sudan's war is not just going to be about engaging internal actors but also Sudan's neighbors.
▶ 1:53:54I think fortunately we have seen a deescalation in the tensions between um particularly the Sydney's armed forces and the um the government in Ethiopia but depending on how things go between uh Ethiopia and Eratraa and the tensions there and the likelihood um as we're seeing of a ratcheting up of tensions and potentially an armed conflict.
▶ 1:54:14Ethiopian air trade may be the first countries to be sort of pulled into the war in Sudan and vice versa that Sudanese communities particularly those on the um on the border regions will be pulled into the conflict between um Ethiopia and Eratray. In fact, we're already seeing this during the Tra conflict. We already saw um lots of assistance, shall we say, from the Sydney's authorities in that war. And likewise, we're seeing a lot of Itran and Ethiopian engagement in the war in Sudan currently, particularly by the Atrans.
▶ 1:54:41Um recently, we had the we saw the Atran Navy dock in Port Sudan. So, what we're seeing here is the overspill that many of us, including Cameron and I, have been warning about since the beginning of the war is already happening. It's already unfolding. And unless these issues around, you know, contested territory um but also regional um interests of neighboring countries are dealt with, I don't think we're going to be able to sort of um have a a comprehensive resolution to this war.
▶ 1:55:07Just so a little better understanding about why the refugees in Egypt, why Egypt would not want the UNHCR, is it because they're welcoming them? I I mean Karen Bass, who used to be my ranking member when she was chair, I was her ranking member.
▶ 1:55:23We made a trip and we met with President Mvnia and we went to a refugee camp that it was extraordinary how the local u Ugandan people were welcoming the South Sudin people with with such concern and love. Uh and he had it too. Uh it was just amazing and both of us were like our eyes were wide open about this is a good neighborly policy. Is that is that what Egypt is doing or is it something else? That's not my understanding. No.
▶ 1:55:49Um Egypt and Sudan have a very contentious relationship mostly because Egypt sees Sudan and the people too. I mean that's just Yes. So Egypt sees Sudan as an extension of its southern border. It believes that it should be um very much involved in deciding what the government in Sudan looks like. This is why they continue to support um the Sudanese armed forces. They have done let's say for almost 70 years.
▶ 1:56:08Um there are issues with racism that Sudin people um you know face in Egypt particularly previously the South Sudin when they were in Cairo particularly uh in large numbers during the North South conflict of 20 years ago um Dories as well who have been um displaced to Egypt have faced severe racism but so have Sudin of all types there's also a rhetoric within Egypt similar to what we saw with the Syrians um that the economic issues that Egypt is facing is in large part due to their hosting of refugee communities
▶ 1:56:38including the Sydney communities. That said, a lot of Sydney people um particularly from the center and north of the country have a lot of familial ties with Egypt. There's of course the shared language and in many ways a shared um history and culture that has meant there are a lot of people who believe that Egypt is still the place to go now. But but without the kind of um refugee protections that as you saw firsthand in in in um Uganda, which I think are sort of an aberration, they are an exception. um without those protections, people in Sudan, um Sudanese people in Egypt will be very vulnerable.
▶ 1:57:08Recently, the Egyptians came up with um some legislation that has made it actually more difficult for people in Sudan to be able to register with UNHCR and therefore get um the requisite support there. Thank you so very much. Anything else? You deeply appreciate it and we will follow up. Thank you. And if we have some additional questions, we will get them to you, particularly for some of the members who uh uh are not here but wanted to be. And uh without any further ado, the hearing is adjourned.