▶ 0:13:45hazardous materials, pipelines come to order. I ask unanous extent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time. Without objection, show that ordered. um asking extent that members who are not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit on the subcommittee and ask questions without objection show that order. As a reminder to members, if you wish to insert a document into the record, please email also email it to documents timail.house.gov.
▶ 0:14:20I recognize myself for the purpose of opening statement for five minutes. The free enterprise system is responsible for generating uh the most efficient innovative technologies for our modern world in the global economy.
▶ 0:14:38Technology advancements are some of them our nation's greatest competitive Our national freight and passenger rail networks are no different from other sectors of the economy. Innovation and technology are vital to improving the real industry's growth and safety outcomes.
▶ 0:14:58Ensuring that technology advancements and innovations continue to flourish will require a combination of right policies uh particularly regulatory policies uh to incentivize current and future research develop uh development and deployment of new technology.
▶ 0:15:19Unfortunately, while our other government agencies, including those in Department of Transportation, are embracing the promise of innovative and developing uh the right regulatory framework for its uh promotion. Much of the Federal Railroad Administration regulatory framework remains a relic of the past.
▶ 0:15:41For example, most FRA regulations are prescriptive in how they uh require safety inspection and tasks to be conducted. They determine the frequency and means used to achieve regulatory compliance. Many of those regulations are written decades ago at a time when technology was limited and or sometimes non-existent. However, we are here to examine technologies progress.
▶ 0:16:13Technological progress moves on. Although the law allows railroads to apply for waiverss to test new processes and technologies that can achieve safety objectives while improving efficiency. This current waiver process is less than transparent and subject to political interference.
▶ 0:16:34This regulatory uncertainty hinders both innovation and of the rail industry's ability to compete with others uh against other modes of freight transportation. As as Congress begins consideration of legislation authorizing surface transportation programs, the agency uh and agencies, we look we should look to promote policies that encourage innovation, investment in the re our rail system, improving both its safety and its ability
▶ 0:17:04to survive and thrive. This includes reforming the antiquated regulatory structure that is inhibiting Today's witnesses will provide important insight onto how technologies have the potential to revolutionize freight and passenger rail transportation. We are interested in learning their views on what Congress can do to encourage innovation and bring to railroads into the 21st century.
▶ 0:17:35So now I I'd recognize Representative Titus, a ranking member for five Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for a hold in this hearing and for our witnesses for testifying. Uh, as you mentioned, we're here today to discuss rail innovation in the United States. Our innovative spirit is one of our greatest strengths, and we should be harnessing this spirit to improve our transportation networks.
▶ 0:18:03Innovation has transformed both passenger and freight rails since the 19th century. This includes how locomotives are powered as we've moved from steam to diesel to electric. And now Bright Line, which is going to be in my district running from Las Vegas to Southern California, is bringing zero emission all electric high-speed rail to the forefront. This will uh create good union jobs. jobs.
▶ 0:18:30It will reduce greenhouse gas emissions and it'll make pe it easier, more convenient, quicker for people to travel between Las Vegas in Los Angeles. And once that's established, we think it will go far beyond. I'm interested in exploring today and hearing from the witnesses how we can use emerging technologies to combat cargo theft. This uh cost excuse me our economy between 15 and $30 billion each year.
▶ 0:19:01I held a roundt to explore this issue earlier in the year and co-led a bipartisan bill that would create a federal task force to help address the In addition to improving federal enforcement, technology can help shippers track rail cars and packages in real time, and that could be immensely helpful to combating this growing issue and make it safer for communities and people working on the rail lines.
▶ 0:19:30And speaking of real time tracking tracking, I'm also very interested in how innovation can make the shipping of hazardous materials safer. hazardous material runs right through the heart of my district in Las Vegas, goes right by train right down through the heart of town. And I want to be sure that my constituents and first responders are equipped with the information they need to respond to any incidents that might occur involving hazmat.
▶ 0:20:00Now, any conversation about innovation in the rail industry, like I mentioned, or others that may come up, have to include discussions of rail safety. We have a duty to ensure that advancements in technology do not come at the expense of the safety of workers, passengers, and the communities that trains pass through. That brings me to my next topic, which is traffic inspections. Automated traffic inspection, ATI, let me get all these acronyms straight.
▶ 0:20:30Technologies such as track geometry measurement systems, TGMS, can play an important role in identifying rail track defaults and in keeping passengers safe. These systems were first deployed in the 1970s, and they've been a good supplemental tool for inspecting the 140,000 miles of track we have across the United States.
▶ 0:20:52There are not any regulations that prohibit any railroad from using this these track geometry measurement systems or any other automated track inspection technology. I want to say though that ATI should not should not replace visual in-person track inspections. The National Transportation Safety Board, another acronym NTSB, has cautioned against replacing visual track inspections with ATI.
▶ 0:21:20This is because ATI cannot look for 17 17 different types of track defects that a human inspector can identify. This includes broken rails, drainage issues, track obstructions, trespassers, vandalisms, and washouts.
▶ 0:21:38I sent a letter with ranking member Larsson to Secretary Duffy urging the Federal Railroad Administration to not grant a safety waiver that would allow class one railroads to reduce visual track safety inspections from twice a week to twice a month. Uh that's a big difference and that's what they're asking for.
▶ 0:22:00The safety waiver request also asked the FRA to give the largest railroad 72 hours to address defects instead of immediately addressing them as current regulations require. I would also ask, Mr. Chairman, unanimous consent that a letter be included in today's record. That letter. Okay. Thank you very much.
▶ 0:22:24As the subcommittee works on surface transportation reauthorization, I look forward to working with you, Mr. Chairman, and the chairs of the committees on provisions that will push us into the next generation of rail with robust and dedicated investment while improving and upholding rail safety, always at the forefront.
▶ 0:22:46I would now ask if we could submit a letter from the Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen to be entered into the record that addresses some of the safety issues I brought up. Well, thank you again, Mr. Chairman, for holding the hearing and I look forward to having those questions addressed that I've mentioned. Thank you, and I yield Now, I'd like to uh recognize the um our welcome our witnesses and thank them for being here.
▶ 0:23:15It's good to have you today. Thank you for look forward to hearing what you have to say. Uh if you take a moment, tell you about the lighting system. Go mean green means go. Yellow means it's time to wrap it up. Red means time to quit. It's pretty simple. Ask unanimous consent that the witness's full statements be included in the record. Without objection, show that ordered.
▶ 0:23:37asking in his consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witness have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted in writing. Without objection, show that ordered. Ask unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing. Without objection, show that order.
▶ 0:24:01As your uh testimony, written testimony has been made public a part of public record, the subcommittee asks you to limit your oral remarks to five minutes. And with that, I'll call on Mr. Shannon. You're recognized for five minutes for your testimony. Good morning, Chairman Webster, Ranking Member Titus, and distinguished members of the rail subcommittee.
▶ 0:24:25I'm David Shannon, general manager of Rail Pulse LLC, and it's an honor to appear before you today on behalf of a diverse coalition of rail car owners, all united in a common purpose, to grow the use of freight rail transportation in North America through innovation. At the heart of this innovation is telematics on rail cars. The installation of GPS and smart sensors on rail cars that provide real-time information about their location, condition, and health.
▶ 0:24:52These technologies may sound technical, but their purpose is simple. To make rail more competitive, transparent, and reliable mode of freight transportation. And this matters because when more freight moves by rail, the public benefits. Rail is more fuel efficient, sustainable, and safer than trucking on a per ton mile basis. And shifting freight from road to rail reduces highway congestion, cuts infrastructure wear, and lowers transportation costs across the supply chain. Growth in rail isn't just an industry objective.
▶ 0:25:23It's in the national interest. But rail cannot grow without change. Shippers have told us clearly why they choose Reliable on-time performance, shipment visibility, and equipment availability and and capacity. Railpulse was created to deliver the data that can be used to address these issues, not just for individual companies, but for the system as a whole.
▶ 0:25:47Formed in 2021, the coalition came together out of the realization that no single company or class of companies could solve these issues. Fragmented adoption of telematics would be slow and inconsistent. But by collaborating, sharing expertise, data, investment, and equal governance, we could build something transformative. Today, reflecting the diversity of railcar ownership, rail pulse members come from all classes.
▶ 0:26:14Bungi North America, a shipper, GATX, Greenbryer, Trinity Rail, Rail Car LEORS, GMW, Railroad Development Corporation, and Watco, all shortline railroads, and CPKC CSX Norfolk Southern and Union Pacific, all class one railroads. With the help of a Chrissy grant, Federal Railroad Administration in the state of Pennsylvania, Rail Pulse launched a multi-phase pilot project to test these concepts.
▶ 0:26:40We equipped more than a thousand rail cars of different types, tank cars, auto racks, box cars, and more with advanced sensors and GPS devices from multiple vendors. We proved the data could be captured, standardized, and shared securely to all authorized stakeholders and all in real time. Following the pilot, rail pulse platform was officially launched across North America in September 2024 and we're now seeing strong interest and adoption.
▶ 0:27:09But we face two critical challenges. The first I'll call the growth to value paradox. While our growth has been impressive by traditional message measures for a technology startup over 17 times since the pilot ended, it is nowhere near good enough. Only when a majority of the 1.6 million rail cars in North America are equipped will we see the true systemwide impact.
▶ 0:27:33It's only then that railroads can begin to leverage the telematics data to change their operating practices, that we can begin to contemplate new regimes for safety, and that we can implement broadscale predictive railcar maintenance strategies to increase the safety of the railcar fleet. But getting there requires accelerated investment. And to that end, we urge Congress to support financial incentives to help rail rail car owners equip faster.
▶ 0:28:01Second, I'll call the rail car innovator innovators dilemma. The rail industry needs to embrace the same fail fast ethos that has driven American technology leadership globally. But right now, even when there are init internal funds available for investment, there is concern concern that innovations early adopters invest in might be undercut by future regulation or technology specification.
▶ 0:28:30We need a regulatory environment that is outcome focused and supports even incentivizes experimentation and innovation, especially for monitoring technologies that don't directly affect the rail car's operation. If companies are willing to test unproven tools responsibly, they should be very actively supported. In closing, I want to thank the committee for your time and attention today. What Rail Pulse is doing is historic.
▶ 0:28:58For the first time, a diverse set of rail car owners are working together to modernize freight rail system at a foundational level. With your partnership, the continued support of the FRA and others, and with shared commitment, we can digitize all 1.6 million rail cars in North America, and we can shift the perception and reality of rail as a smart, safe, sustainable mode of freight transportation. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. Mr. Macauan, you recognize her.
▶ 0:29:27Five minutes for your testimony. Thank you very much, Chairman Webster, Ranking Member Titus, members of the subcommittee. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today. I'm here in my capacity as the chair of the Alliance for Innovation and Infrastructure. AI is a nonpartisan independent think tank developed over a decade ago focused on advancing pragmatic solutions to improving safety, fostering innovation, and strengthening America's infrastructure systems.
▶ 0:29:58Today's hearing touches on a crucial issue. As we invest in rebuilding and expanding American infrastructure, a critical lynch pin for not only our domestic economy but for our global economic competitiveness, we must ensure that our regulatory framework evolve alongside the technology shaping 21st century transportation. The challenge before us is not partisan. It's practical.
▶ 0:30:24Modernization done right enhances both safety and We can protect American jobs while making our infrastructure smarter, more efficient, and more resilient. Technology is not the enemy of safety. It is often its greatest ally.
▶ 0:30:42AI's recent report, driving regulatory innovation for self safer railroading, reveals significant friction between the current regulatory approach and the adoption of safety enhancing tools. In the last 5 years, nearly 70% of class one railroads have sought waivers from the Federal Railroad Administration to use technologies like automatic track inspection.
▶ 0:31:06Yet 40% of those waiverss took more than six months or longer to be approved, many with limited or no As a former federal regulator, let me say that this isn't about shortcuts. It's about ensuring that when railroads deploy rigorously tested systems that improve defect detection and reduce risk, they should be embraced. The concern is that if the regulatory system moves too slowly with proven technology, how can we expect it to move at all?
▶ 0:31:34When innovation comes knocking, the regulator must be equipped to fairly and swiftly evaluate new innovations. To FRA's credit, a recent proposed rule on ATI acknowledges the need for reform, but it still leans on outdated assumptions such as mandatory visual inspections, even where automated systems have de demonstrated superior performance.
▶ 0:31:59FRA's proposal lacks key elements of a modern regulatory design, objective standards, structured timelines, and transparent We should move away from prescription and toward an outcomebased approach of continuous improvement like those found in safety management systems. Safety and technology go hand in hand and continuous improvements require regulators to rethink how they regulate.
▶ 0:32:23By the time a regulation is written, the technology is already outdated because today's technology moves at the speed of light. This regulatory lag, it's inherent in the system, is innovation's worst detractor. We are in many cases across government literally discouraging technology from being That same approach can benefit the rail safety. As I've said, safety and innovation are not mutually exclusive.
▶ 0:32:49When regulations reward validated results, regardless of the method used, we empower both workers and innovators to contribute to a stronger system. I do also recognize that workforce concerns are real. New technologies can be deployed in ways that enhance the ability of workers to complete their task more efficiently. Technological innovations often require more people, not less.
▶ 0:33:14You may recall when Americans were told that word processors, computers, and printers would make our lives a life of leisure. But that hasn't exactly turned out that way. Technology, though, improves our ability to do more. And that is important because more needs to be done. Technology is that secret sauce of the American economy, and it can be leveraged to improve infrastructure, the companies regulated by it, and the regulator itself.
▶ 0:33:44AI does not advocate for deregulation, but it supports smarter regulations that empower innovation, increase efficiency and resilience of the infrastructure while protecting communities and ensuring tax dollars are wisely spent. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, I commend your bipartisan leadership and the work the important work that you all are doing. This hearing is a step toward building a regulatory framework that reflects America's capacity for innovation and responsibility.
▶ 0:34:15Thank you again for the opportunity to contribute and I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. Uh now Mr. Ghart, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony. Chairman Webster, Ranking Member Titus, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. I'm Eric Ghart.
▶ 0:34:38I'm the executive vice president and chief technology officer of the uh WebTech Corporation, testifying on behalf of the Railway Supply Institute. Week's commitment to innovation stretches back to George Westinghouse's 1869 invention of the automatic air bra.
▶ 0:34:56And today, our 29,000 person global workforce, including 12,000 US employees, helps move roughly oneif of the world's freight through our locomotives, braking systems, and digital platforms. RSI's more than 200 member companies support tens of thousands of American jobs and share a mission of advancing safety, innovation, and network efficiency across the rail system. For WebTech, that mission comes to life through three pillars of modernization.
▶ 0:35:25accident prevention, asset health monitoring, and network utilization. For accident prevention, Webtek's interoperable electronic train management system and positive train control continuously monitor train location and speed on more than 24,000 North American locomotives, preventing train and train collisions, overspeed derailments, work zone incursions, and movements through misaligned switches.
▶ 0:35:50Our enhanced wayside to asset communications support real-time information exchange for automatic train control and early early hazard warnings creating an in integrated digital safety net. This integrated approach gives railroads and regulators the tools to prevent and mitigate accidents and exemplifies how WABEC and the broader RSI membership are turning continuous improvements into concrete safety gains.
▶ 0:36:17Wabech and RSI have been at the forefront of deploying asset health monitoring and predictive maintenance systems. Preventing the next incident means spotting defects early. Webtek's kinetics inspection technologies combine machine vision, laser scanning, acoustic and thermal sensing, and AI analytics to assess the condition of locomotives, freight cars, and track components.
▶ 0:36:42Onboard diagnostics track vibration, fuel flow, and pressure against fleet baselines to predict component fatigue, while railc car telematics turn freight cars into connected assets that broadcast mileage, impact shocks, and handbreak status. By shifting from calendarbased to conditionbased maintenance, railroad railroads reduce failures and keep equipment in service longer. for network utilization.
▶ 0:37:09Webex trip optimizer, an EPA certified smart cruise control, calculates an optimal speed profile and automatically manages throttle and dynamic brakes, delivering about 10% fuel savings and more than 400 million gallons conserved to date.
▶ 0:37:25Complementing trip optimizer, real-time planning solutions optimize the train network to unlock additional mainline capacity and cloud-based yardage management platforms trim idle time and the onfoot exposure that causes many yard injuries.
▶ 0:37:40The tier 4 modernized locomotives reinforce these digital tools, achieving 76% lower knocks, 70% lower particulate matter, and up to 30% better fuel economy than previous To maintain this progress, we respectfully recommend three federal actions.
▶ 0:37:59One, sustain and grow federal investments, particularly the Chrissy program with dedicated set aides for digital safety and advanced inspection platforms so railroads of all sizes can accelerate deployment of these critical technologies.
▶ 0:38:14Two, expand FRA research, development, demonstration, and deployment capabilities to advance AI enabled inspections, collision avoidance systems, and alternative fuel And three, modernize and streamline regulatory processes so that technologies with proven risk reduction benefits can move more quickly to demonstration and widespread use.
▶ 0:38:38In conclusion, modern technology has become indispens an an indispensable driver of rail safety, reliability, and efficiency. These improvements protect our communities, strengthen supply chains, and fuel economic growth. WABTEC Corporation, together with RSI and its member companies, is committed to advancing the next generation of life-saving and efficiency enhancing technologies.
▶ 0:39:03We appreciate congressional support through past initiatives and we believe continued partnership is crucial. On behalf of WABTE and RSI, thank you for the opportunity to testify and I look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. Uh now, U Mr. Cardwell, you're recognized five minutes for your testimony.
▶ 0:39:28Chairman Webster, Ranking Member Titus, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Tony Cardwell, and I am the president of the Brotherhood of Maintenance Away Employees Division of the International Teamsters. I was elected to lead our n our national union in 2022. BMWD members are the railroad workers who build and maintain the tracks, bridges, buildings, and other critical infrastructure that support both freight and passenger rail service across the United States.
▶ 0:39:58I began my railroad career when I was hired on by the Union Pacific Railroad and I have 25 years of seniority on the Oregon division. Throughout my career, I have witnessed firsthand the industry's evolution, particularly in areas such as safety, technology, and innovation. A common misconception is that the unions are Let me be clear, the BMW is not anti-technology.
▶ 0:40:23We support innovation when it improves safety for the general public and enhances the working conditions of our members. In BMWed's 138-year history, we have consistently embrac embraced significant technology technological advancements in the rail industry, especially when those changes have made the railroad safer for the communities we serve. As president of the BMWD, I negotiate agreements with the railroads.
▶ 0:40:50We understand that in 50 years, railroad work will look far What I will not do is trade safety for convenience or allow the railroads to do so in the name of chasing the latest piece of technology. No advancement is worth risking the safety of the constituents you serve in the communities where our members work and live. Nearly two years after East Palestine disaster, the railroads lobbyists are once again putting safety on the line.
▶ 0:41:19This time they are targeting the safety sensitive work my members perform seeking seeking to weaken inspection standards in order to satisfy Wall Street's short term BMW's track inspectors perform FRA mandated visual inspections of railroad track twice a week. During these inspections they look for 27 different var variations of track defects. ATI cannot find 73% of track defects. 73%.
▶ 0:41:50As we speak here today, the Association of American Railroads on behalf of the Class One Railroads is asking the FRA for a safety waiver that would reduce the frequency of these inspections by Cutting them from twice a week to just twice a month. The same waiver would allow railroads up to 72 hours to address defect after it is identified.
▶ 0:42:15Under current FRA regulations, human track inspections are required to remedy the defect immediately. Allowing trains carrying passengers or hazardous materials to travel over compromised track for up to 3 days is an unacceptable risk. We fully support the use of ATI to supplement visual inspections, not to eliminate them. ATI cannot replace the work that track inspectors perform. It only identifies one category of defects which is track geometry.
▶ 0:42:45It cannot detect 73% of derail derailment causing defects such as broken rails, numerous switch defects, loose bolts, and many more. If the railroads succeed in securing this waiver, rail safety will be significantly weakened. We will see more derailments, some of which could be as catastrophic as East Palestine or even worse. Imagine if an event like that were to happen in the heart of the districts you represent.
▶ 0:43:13That is why BMW has launched a national campaign to oppose this waiver. We believe it would be devastating to our constituents in the safety of rail workers. We are grateful for the support of ranking members Larsson and Tyson and urge all members of Congress to join us in standing against this proposal. While a tracked effect did not cause the East Palestine derailment, nor Fork Southern failed to give Carmen workers inspecting the train enough time to do their jobs.
▶ 0:43:40East Palestine was a tragic reminder of the FRA mandate inspections. Whether of track, signal systems, rail cars, locomotives, or grade crossings. They are all essential. They all matter. The East Palestine derailment should have been avoided. My message to the railroads and the companies developing rail technology is simple. Partner with us to get it right. We are not opposed to innovation or technological change.
▶ 0:44:08However, it must be implemented in a way that safeguards the communities across the country where our members work and live. I want to be extremely clear. BMW will not stand by if waivers are accepted and place you and your constituents at risk. If the AR waiverss is granted, it will expose the American people to imminent danger. At a time like this, we should be reminded of the words of the Holy Bible, Ezekiel 33:6.
▶ 0:44:35But if the watchman sees the enemy coming and does does not sound the alarm to warn the people, he is responsible for their death. We see the dangers coming. We are sounding the alarm. The question before you now is, will the warning be heard? Thank you, and I look forward to your Thank you all for your testimony. We'll now turn to questions from the panel. I'll recognize myself for five minutes. So, Mr.
▶ 0:45:04McAllen, your organization recently issued a report uh highlighting how under the Biden administration, the waiver process broke down. Um, how do you how do you how do politics such as this conflict with the railroad federal railroad administration stated mission of enabling the safe, reliable, efficient moving of people and goods? Uh, Mr. Chairman, thank you for the question.
▶ 0:45:34And um you know the report focuses on the fact that technology continues to evolve and the regulatory framework hasn't taken hasn't kept pace. And you're referring to limiting political whiplash which is one of the five recommendations.
▶ 0:45:48And in technical safety decisions we need to ensure that regulatory outcomes are based on data and uh that they are consistent with standards not shifting political When you don't know what the rules of the game are from the regulator, it's hard to comply number one. And number two, it's impossible to deploy capital.
▶ 0:46:12So, uh, can you describe the importance of a kind of a transparent regulatory process to achieve FRA's mission? I'm sorry. Was that to me, sir? Yes. Yes. Uh, yeah, it's it's critical. Um, you know, it's it's impossible to comply with the rules if you don't know what the rules are. And it's impossible to plan when decisions appear halfhazard or decisions change.
▶ 0:46:43This this is should be nonpartisan, not something where the rules change depending on who's in the White House. Okay. So when when railroads ask for a um an automated track inspection, manual seek a waiver there.
▶ 0:47:02Um these waiverss are often used in technology to proactively and strategically address potential track safety issues, not simply eliminate manual inspections. Is that right? Yes. Okay. So, let me uh let me just get this straight. Okay, there's there's technology and some of it's pretty advanced. Make some great things done.
▶ 0:47:32Um does it have a 100% u reliability? I I'll answer. Um you need people to interpret the data. That's clear. But the technology in many cases is more accurate than the people. The technology is better than my eyeball. That's just fact.
▶ 0:47:59If that were the case, we wouldn't take x-rays when we go to the the doctor's office. but on the other hand, um there's a manual inspection that takes a person, what do they do? What do they look for? Anybody can answer that question. Tell me about a manual inspection.
▶ 0:48:30Uh the manual inspectors are the visual inspections that are done. They're able to catch um a lot of defects that can't be caught by the track geometry uh machines, which is the ATI. And so the visual inspections can catch all kinds of defects and preventative defects in advance of the defects becoming worse. Um, but there's numerous defects that the ATI track geometry can't catch, such as just as simple as a broken rail. Um, the track geometry machines do not pick up a broken rail, and that's just a basic track defect.
▶ 0:49:00Happens all the time, every night across the country. So, there's also an automated track And so, does that is that quicker? Does it look at less things than a manual inspection does? What's what's what's the difference? Is that question for me? Anybody?
▶ 0:49:25The the the ATI the ATI machine does catch track geometry defects and and it is efficient at catching track geometry defects. Um we we love the work that EATI does on the tracks. Um, as our track inspectors appreciate, the track geometry machines that come true, come through and catch those defects. But what they don't catch is what the visual eye can catch. And that's a lot of the basic defects that are out there. It catches about six. There's 23 codes in the FRA and it catches about six of those defects.
▶ 0:49:55And they're all track geometry, the measurements of the track, track surface, track gauge, things of that nature. is it better, the same, faster? What's the difference? For track geometry, I'd argue that it does a better job for track geometry, but it doesn't catch a large percentage of the defects that are out there. It only catches about 26 or 27% of the defects on the track.
▶ 0:50:26So, is it checking the track or the uh the vehicle's um mechanical parts or I'm sorry, what was the question? Is it is it checking the track itself or the mechanical parts on the on the car itself like wheels, axles, things like What does I believe you're referring to the geometry
▶ 0:50:56tool detects the track. It's uh that's a different technology from say hot bearings or or other aspects on the cars themselves. So, okay. says, "The hot bearing, does that show up in a manual inspection or could does it take a a rolling automated What was the question?
▶ 0:51:31Yeah, on the hot bearing detectors, um, they're different. I we represent the track inspectors that do the work. But I would I would say that hard bearing detectors um the best thing that can be that done to detect those is a strong visual inspection and that's that was what was said by the STB as well um after the East Palestine derailment.
▶ 0:51:53Um there is technology that catches it but the the technology doesn't relay the information as quickly as it should obviously as as seen and and the technology isn't as as prevalent out there as as um as it should be. Uh that the the detectors were too far apart in the East Palestine derailment is what was decided by the STB. There should be more of them out there. Um there wasn't enough and that was the determination from the STV report.
▶ 0:52:22Okay, I'm I'm way over. Sorry about that, but thank you for your answers. I appreciate that. Um, so, Miss Titus, you're recognized. Thank you. I'd like to continue this conversation because said in my opening remarks, I think there were 17 defects that couldn't be found by this geome geometry uh technology that need this eye to see them. And Mr.
▶ 0:52:47McGowan, I think you need a different analogy from the eye and the X-ray machine because every time you have an X-ray, then you got to have a person come in and read that X-ray. It doesn't read itself and find the problem and take care of it. So, maybe we can go back to you, Mr. Talk again about some of these defects that a person can see if they're out there inspecting that this technology can't find. and tell us how many of these you might find in a week or a month.
▶ 0:53:17How prevalent are they? And how trained do you have to be to to find these things? I mean, it's not just somebody walking down the track. These are experts who are looking for these kinds of things just in case because they are such safety problems. Thank you for the question, Congressman Titus. It takes an immense amount of time to become a track inspector and a lot of studies and research and and testing that is done before you could become a qualified track inspector.
▶ 0:53:43So yes, uh they are very skilled workers and they are able to find defects that no technology can find and they're also able to ration rationally um deal with the defects as they come. For example, when you run into a track defect, uh it's not always just a defect that is caused by some random thing. It's usually a multitude of issues that are causing that defect. So for example, there could be water issues in the area that causing a surface level issue.
▶ 0:54:11Uh the ATI machines are unable to determine that there's a water problem. The visual inspections you are able to see that there's a water problem or there's a drainage issue or there's a lot of mud or issue in that track which is causing a surface issue which causes the rail the rail cars to tip off the rail and cause derailment. when we come up to those defects as a visual track inspection is being done, we can look at the different at, you know, the the environment that we're in and we can make determinations on what can fix the issue.
▶ 0:54:38Um, and and we can also prevent the track defect, which is most important. There's no preventative maintenance being done by ATI. The human inspections are what do preventative maintenance before the defect is caused. Remember, we want to find defects before before it happens, not after. Because the derailments, you know, defects that will cause derailments.
▶ 0:55:00Under under the current regulations, if you find one of these defects, don't you have to report in and have it addressed immediately or else there's some kind of fines or uh issues that arise if you don't I'm sorry, what was the question? Would you have to report this and have it addressed immediately or else there are some fines uh imposed on the railroad if that doesn't happen or on the inspector?
▶ 0:55:24Yeah, the the waiver is asking for a 72-hour 3 days before the defect has to be corrected. Um I want to ask about that too. Uh m I think Mr. McGowan in the waiver even though it it's 72 hours if you don't inspect it there's no fine or anything any consequence is there isn't that a part of the waiver too there is no fine but I think you have to put this in context that if seems to be a pretty big context if you're not if you're taking away the fine if
▶ 0:55:55you're not going to address the problem well is it a problem this is so specific we don't know with your technology if we don't have a person out there looking at it well just just like in other modes. This technology finds things that are so minimal, they may be a wait and see. They may not need to be addressed right away. If BNSF's testing says you find 200 times more defects with this tool and a visual inspection, it's depicting very minute issues that may not require immediate action.
▶ 0:56:24And so, you know, I think it has to be ranked according to to safety. and the Congress can you all can decide what timeline is appropriate, but not everything's a overnight problem. Who who determines that a wait and see? I'm not sure I want to be on a train on a track that's a wait and see. Who who makes that decision if it's too minute to address immediately? It's a safety risk management decision that operators make every single day of the week in every mode of transportation.
▶ 0:56:54That's what we do. We're professional risk mitigation experts. Bean counters. I'm sorry. I just said bean counters. That's Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll yield back. Mr. Rousler, you're recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Uh, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate each of you uh, being here today to share your wisdom and testimony. U, Mr. Gard, I'm going to start with you.
▶ 0:57:24Uh when a rail infrastructure project is undertaken uh whether it's upgrading a corridor, mo modernizing a yard or deploying new technologies, is it just the businesses and communities in the immediate vicinity that see the benefit uh or do these projects tend to generate broader regional or even national economic Well, I think as uh as any of these projects would be done there there's a broader impact that would come. Can you bring that microphone a little closer?
▶ 0:57:55There's broader impact that would uh would come from this. Uh if we think about uh if there's new railway equipment that has to be utilized there, there's a broad network across the company uh the country with RSI or WABTEC in particular here that may provide that equipment there.
▶ 0:58:12could also open up opportunities to move more freight by rail, which is the safest and cleanest way to move a ton mile, which could also open up some of the interstates and such there from what would have been truck traffic along those ways there. So, there is a lot of benefits that come from this. So, another uh strong interest of the committee is um how federal grant programs can help drive innovation.
▶ 0:58:38and uh specifically the Chrissy uh program is first and foremost shaped to improve rail infrastructure safety and performance. Uh but you noted much of the industry from short lines to suppliers have looked to use these grants as a way to deploy and scale promising uh technologies. Has web tech uh directly utilized Chrissy funding to advance or deploy new new technologies?
▶ 0:59:02So, WebTech tends to work with others uh for some of these uh these grants here where someone else may be the prime recipient of it and will work with them or could also provide the technologies. One of the keys is that we've been working very uh very diligently on both tier 4 technology which reduces NOx by 76% and particulate matter by 70%.
▶ 0:59:26and also been working on modernizations where we take older technology we upgrade them take them from DC to AC technology and really bring new life to them and by doing that we can improve efficiency by 30% and improve higibility how much you can actually pull attractive effort by 50%.
▶ 0:59:44And now with the IIGJA act, uh it opened up these opportunities to the short lines where they could utilize those funding to to upgrade to tier 4 technology and also modernize uh their locomotives. So it's been very beneficial. So would you rate the Chrissy program essential program or non-essential program?
▶ 1:00:05Oh, I I I would say we would recommend keeping it at its current uh its current levels uh that are in the IGA and then we would even think of even increasing the amount of uh grants for FRA to do more R&D because we really do need to be developing this future technology that's out there a little bit further. Uh Mr. Shannon, I'm going to come to you next.
▶ 1:00:27uh federal regulations and implementation always seem to lag behind the pace of technological innovation uh making it diff difficult to create the most efficient uh system possible in many cases. So we have freight railroads that deploy increasingly advanced diagnostics and real-time data tools to help monitor car and track conditions. Yet many of the ways we evaluate rail safety operations and equipment date back decades, some even to the steam locomotive era. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:00:57Shannon, if Congress were to mandate the use of thermal wayside detectors, what impact would that have on you and the efforts of your customers to invest in railcar telematics and similar monitoring I think the the concern that that that comes to for us is that you know the outcome is what we would like to see focused on which is you know identifying um hot bearings, failing
▶ 1:01:27bearings, wheel defects, etc. before they come become emergency conditions. If we regulate a specific solution, say more wayside detectors, that's going to sort of remove the motivation for both the car owners and the technology developers to invest their time and energy to create the technologies for the rail cars themselves.
▶ 1:01:55that you put on the rail cars themselves that show the promise and have done in other industries extremely effectively of giving early detection before this becomes a critical failure mode so that the car owner has the opportunity to replace wheels to do the maintenance activities ahead of failure where detectors tend to be more closer to time of failure when they they detect the ultimate issue.
▶ 1:02:25Yeah. Well, as they say, prevention is always the best cure, no matter what we're talking about. I yield back. Mr. Molton, you're recognized for five minutes for your question. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to actually pick up where my colleague, Mr. Rouseer, just uh just left off. I agree, Mr. browser that prevention is is uh is is is better.
▶ 1:02:46But I would add that if you have telmatics that can be simultaneously or in or or constantly monitored by the engineer, then you would also know the instant that a hot bearing is is detected on a car regardless of whether you're near a hot bearing detector. That right, Mr. Shannon? Uh that would be correct.
▶ 1:03:09um you know telematics on the rail car is going to give whoever the recipient of the data the most immediate insights as to the condition of the of the wheel. But again, I think the thing that we need to consider is the the best use of this technology is to prevent the rail car from reaching the point where the bearing does.
▶ 1:03:33Well, maybe that's the case, but if it improves safety to also have it absolutely available, I mean, why why would we not do that as well? And my point is the same as Mr. browsers, which is that that if we have modern technology that can bring the accident rate down to zero, then that's what we should be using, not installing more 1960s technology, which is the hot bearing detectors that the railroads have.
▶ 1:03:58I mean, I assume you care about transportation and you're not buying an awful lot of fax machines because that's was the communications technology about in the 1960s, right? Yes. I think I agree with what you're hesitating on that which makes you're still in the market for fax machines. No, I don't want more fax machines. Definitely not. Well, that's that's that's the point. So, there's a lot of there's a lot of agreement here that that we've got to get into the 21st century. Absolutely.
▶ 1:04:26And we have technology available today. I mean, the fact that I can order something for $1.99 on Amazon and know exactly where that package is on the way to my house and yet I can spend 15 or $20,000 to ship a rail car across the United States and have no idea where it is. No idea when it will arrive is a little absurd.
▶ 1:04:47That's a great concern and it is one of the key reasons rail pulse exists is to provide a single source of truth for the location, condition, and health of the rail cars using advanced telematics technologies on the rail cars themselves. Right. So there's a there are improvements in customer service because you know where your p your your your car is. Absolutely. And there are obviously improvements in safety uh that we've detailed.
▶ 1:05:11And you also made the point that the more freight that we get off of trucks and onto rail is good for the national interest. Those those are your words. In 2023, there were 22,543 hazardous material incidents on highways compared to 297 freight rail hazmat incidents. It's pretty stark statistic.
▶ 1:05:34And railroads have approximately 10% of the hazmat accidents trucks have despite roughly equal hazmat ton mileage. 10%. So we'd be saving a lot of lives, a lot of money if more hazmat, just to take hazmat as an example, let alone broader uh freight were transported by rail instead of truck.
▶ 1:05:57From 2012 to 2023, there were 82 fatalities on highways due to hazmat accidents, zero railway But Mr. Cardwell made a very good point, which is that the railroads, especially in the last 10 or so years, have a history of taking every cost-saving measure and not putting it into expanding their traffic to actually getting more trucks off the highways.
▶ 1:06:24They put it into cutting service, cutting employees, and just impro improving profits for Wall Street. So, how do we square this circle where we want rail traffic to increase? We want technology to help us get there, but we don't want the companies to just give all the profits to to Wall Street and none of the benefits to the American Mr. Cowwell, please. Carroll, please. I I would say that we're we're more than willing to to have the ATI machinery operated in technology.
▶ 1:06:54We we actually we actually have pushed for more of it. Um we believe that they should use the ATI regularly. Um the last proposal that was given from the FRA was for three times a year and the railroad spoke against ATI. Now they're saying they want to do it 12 times a year and get rid of all the visual, you know, 75% of the visual inspections. So, so here's my point. I think they should work in tandem together. Look, I've only got 20 seconds left, but here's my point. I agree with what you're saying, Mr. Sh.
▶ 1:07:24I agree with what you're saying. Why can't we get on the same page here? Why won't you in invite the rail unions into discussion into the coalition? You don't even have even have all the class ones yet. Let's involve some of the rail unions in this debate. The answer to that question is fairly fairly simple.
▶ 1:07:44Uh rail pulse is you know chartered and owned by rail car owners and it would be uh we don't own the data that's in rail pulse and so how the data is used you know within the railroads when they get access to it is really a is a railroad thing that has nothing to do with inviting the the likes of Mr. Cardwell to the table. We all should share the same goals which is in increasing traffic by rail. You are part of the solution.
▶ 1:08:14but his workers are part of the solution too and they have a pretty good perspective. So I just hope you can work more together in the future. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you very much. Uh Mr. Lafa, you recognize five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, it's interesting the debate going here. It seems to boil down to does it advancing technology mean we have less workers? And I don't necessarily think that that's what needs to happen. and having less workers are also standing in the way of uh improved technology.
▶ 1:08:44So um I guess uh Mr. Cardwell, let me ask you quickly. Do you do you see that what's advancing here on the bottom line means that there will be less workers on the rail because it'll be replaced by technology and be replaced by self-regulation etc. We've seen a mass reduction 30% up to 30% reduction since 2016 uh in our workforce um because of technology expected with some technology. Yes.
▶ 1:09:13Uh we understand that technology is going to eliminate some jobs. In fact, from 138 years ago, we've seen thousands of railroading jobs lost because of technology. Yeah, I read your outline on that. you know, tampers and all the way through that labor saving and made it even easier on the workers, but has resulted in less workers. But I guess what you're looking at here, do you believe what we're talking about here with this advanced tele telemetry and such, if that's implemented, does that mean less workers? Sorry, what was the question one more time?
▶ 1:09:42With this additional telemetry and advanced more advanced technology, does that mean less workers to you? I can't. Yeah, the waiver is asking for a 75% reduction in in human inspection, visual inspection. Okay, let me throw it to Mr. Macau or Mr. Shannon on that. Is is that the your goal here is that you will have actually less online workers because of the technology makes that possible?
▶ 1:10:12Well, I think from uh the think tank's perspective, we're agnostic on that solution, but I think what it does is the people who are the finders are also the fixers. It allows you to redeploy your assets to where they're needed most. Uh, as I mentioned during my opening, technology often makes more work to be done, not less work. And I think we're getting stuck between this either or. And it's not. That's what I'm wondering, Mr. Shannon. Yeah, I would agree with what Mr. Macauan said.
▶ 1:10:41Uh, the technology is not designed to eliminate work. It's actually designed to make the work more effective, more productive by highlighting and and identifying issues and those issues then need to be worked on by somebody. They need to be evaluated and verified and then and then as appropriate any repairs and other actions need to be taken. There is nothing at what Rail Pulse is advocating for to eliminate jobs. All right, Mr. Mr.
▶ 1:11:11account. A bit earlier there was a discussion about um the technology at more at a more micro level can find maybe more flaws. Maybe you're talking about a piece of rail where you can find a very micro crack or something for example that maybe a visual inspection would easily pass over. So now we know about that micro crack and you're talking about like well does it rise to the level of repair right now? I mean you know if my pickup has a dent in it it doesn't keep me from going out in my fields but if I got a bent frame or a leaking axle or something then that does.
▶ 1:11:40So, can you comment a little bit more on the uh the action level of what your technology finds as to, you know, you kind of talked about a risk trade-off like a slight crack in the rail that would visually wouldn't be seen, wouldn't even be known about. Does that mean you got to repair the rail? That that type of thinking. Uh thank you for the question, sir. That that's a very good point. And if you think about it, uh you know, we have preventive tests.
▶ 1:12:05Um, it's to make a holistic assessment of the infrastructure asset over its entire lifetime. If you can find things early, you can watch them to see if it's getting worse, if a defect is propagating or it's not. It's crucial for the risk management and it's integral in an SMS type of approach which is about continually raising the bar. But not every defect requires immediate action.
▶ 1:12:36That's the analysis part that takes people. Okay. Mr. Sha Shannon, um, is the FRA standing in the way of the advancing technology? That's my notes are saying there seems to be somewhat hold up that FRA wants to just stick with old technology and is kind of uh not embracing the ability to integrate new new in its um in its To date, FRA has been supportive of what we're trying to do at Rail Pulse.
▶ 1:13:04Um, so I don't know that they're necessarily standing in the way. Uh, however, if they advocate for specific technologies um and and sort of shut down innovation in the process, that would stand in the way. They they may be seeking to lock in technologies is is what I'm kind of hearing. But uh is are they are they open enough to look at what we're talking about here to uh let it be approved? I would say they've been open to rail pulse for sure.
▶ 1:13:34Mr. Chairman, you what we're trying to do. Thank you. you very much. Uh Mr. Sides, come down here. Thank you so much, Chairman, and thank you, Ranking Member Titus, for holding this hearing today. to our uh guests and witnesses. Thank you for being here as well.
▶ 1:13:55Uh I have many times in this committee raised the issue of rail safety and I think today's hearing on how our nation can modernize our rail system is a perfect place to address it again. Uh, as you all know and as we have discussed today, uh, on February 3rd, 2023, a Norfolk Southern train carrying hazardous chemicals derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, which is right next door to my district in Northeast Ohio, causing many issues and long-term issues for folks in not only Ohio, but our neighboring state of Pennsylvania.
▶ 1:14:26Certainly, no one should have to deal with the horror and fallout of what occurred from this disastrous derailment. But what is even more upsetting is that this entire derailment originated from a wheelbearing that failed and a wayside detector that failed to identify the issue in time.
▶ 1:14:46Because these detectors are placed over 20 miles apart, this overheated bearing was only noticed after any effective action could be taken to save the bearing and prevent the cat catastrophe that we saw that day. In my time as a state legislator, I I've kept with me this advice from our public safety director who reminded us that if something is predictable, it is preventable. And it's maddening because this incident was predictable and preventable.
▶ 1:15:16And because neither of those things happen, a an entire community has been upended with little done to rectify their safety and their concerns. So to ensure that this kind of disaster doesn't happen, again, I introduced the Rail Act. It is a bipartisan common sense piece of legislation that among other things includes policies that specifically address the issues of failing Wayside detectors. If the rail act were signed into law, wayside detectors and hot boxes would be required every 10 miles of track rather than 20.
▶ 1:15:46Were this policy back in place in February 2023, this tragedy could have been prevented altogether and we would not be worrying about the long-term health effects of a controlled burn in eastern Ohio. But during the investigation of the disaster, it was also reported that rail cars were being dispatched after giving anc inspector only 30 seconds to inspect each side of the rail car.
▶ 1:16:0830 seconds is hardly enough time to get around and walk around the trail car, let alone check one to confirm that it is safe to transport potentially hazardous cargo. And some of these trains, as you know, are double stacked in miles long. So, I'm happy to report that after working with various labor groups, the rail act also required the Department of Transportation to update rail car inspection regulations and audit related inspection programs.
▶ 1:16:33and this will prevent limiting the time for employees to do these uh complete rail car and locomotive checks. So, Mr. Caldwell, if uh you could please speak to the importance of ensuring that these safety uh whether for tracks or rail cars aren't rushed because one thing I've I've noticed in this conversation and other colleagues have mentioned technology and the rail workers should go hand in hand and be complimentary to one another.
▶ 1:16:58But if you are shortch changed with even your ability to do the work then what's what good is the The answer is is yes. Um we all of us all the crafts are fine with the technology that's coming in and we want to work with them to develop this technology and make sure that it's works well. So we do want to work in tandem with these different technologies.
▶ 1:17:23Um, I'll remind you and the rest of the committee that that the the railroads have the ability to use this technology as much as they want to. That the key factor is they're trying to eliminate the human factor, the human inspections to cut cost and and and then bring this technology in when it's simply unproven and can't catch the defects the way the human inspections can.
▶ 1:17:45So on the rail car issues, I'm not a carman and I don't represent the carman, but I can tell you and assure you that they do want more thorough inspections done of cars and we also want an adoption of the technology that helps catch some of these other defects that the human eye can't catch. So yes, we can work together and achieve a much safer railroad if we're willing to do that. Thank you, Mr. Cardwell. And uh Mr. Shannon, I know one of my colleagues talked to you about bringing labor to the table.
▶ 1:18:14Um I have about 30 seconds left and so this is about the amount of time someone would have to inspect one of these tra rail cars. But in the time remaining maybe you can give a full answer uh to my question um about how and what are some of the best ways to include labor in these conversations so that employees are able to help you institute technology and make sure our communities are safe.
▶ 1:18:42From a rail pulse perspective, I would say our our members would bring labor in as appropriate into the discussions about how to use the data that comes out of rail pulse. Our goal as rail pulse is to ensure that data is made available, that it's timely, it's secure, and that all of the right people that need to have access to it get access to it.
▶ 1:19:05But since we don't have a direct relationship with the the labor, we I would say that would be through our through our member companies that that do use the data, including the railroads. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am over time by 30 seconds and it just goes to show couldn't even answer the questions the amount of time it takes for folks who are giving that time to inspect brakes and rail cars. I yield Thank you very much, Mr. Stalber. You're recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 1:19:33Uh we are witnessing a technology boom in the rail industry that is poised to make freight and passenger rail safer and more efficient than ever before. During my time as a law enforcement officer, I saw similar technology advance. At first, we officers sometimes met these changes with resistance. However, we often came to realize the great benefits that the technology provided us. Whether it helped track down a criminal, improve our response time to a concerned citizen, or kept us safe. Importantly, we were brought into the conversation.
▶ 1:20:04We were brought into the conversation. I think it is equally important that our rail workers are brought into the conversation about rail technology. As my colleague just mentioned, rail workers are the first and last line of defense for safety in the rail industry, but technology can supplement their efforts and enhance their processes, and we should take advantage of American ingenuity. Mr. Cardwell, in your testimony, you mentioned that you want to work with the railroads and private companies to develop the next generation of technology.
▶ 1:20:35What are some of the technologies that you and your members are excited about? I've recently done a couple agreements with the railroads um that have allowed snow removal with these amazing machines that they're using in the high parts of California, and they're doing uh snow removal much faster. eliminated quite a few snow removal jobs, for example, and we negotiate those agreements. We're excited about them. Our guys do operate them, but it did take away a lot of jobs in the snow removal area of the work that we do.
▶ 1:21:06Um, we've negotiated agreements for car plate rem where they lay the plates on the rail where it's a very safety sensitive job and they use a plate machine now and it eliminated two or three jobs on each gang. So, we've we've negotiated technology and are excited for technology that does eliminate safety. In this case, we wish they would use the technology every day of the week on the railroad tracks. We wish ATI would run regularly, at least once a week. It would be great. It's a good supplement to the work that our track inspectors do.
▶ 1:21:35We're not opposed to it, and I want to emphasize that over and over again. We simply don't think there should be a reduction of 75% in the human inspections. It's unsafe. So um how can uh rail technology companies collaborate with unions such as a BMW to achieve the goal of safety? What was the question again? How can rail technology companies collaborate with the unions to achieve the goal of safety?
▶ 1:22:03Well, we we have the professionals that know this work. They understand it and they're the best people to come in with the technological pl, you know, groups and talk to them about how these how these machines could operate or how what would be better or better refine them. We're more than willing to take that time to sit with them as a union and even bringing in members from the field, the professionals, the people that do this work to help explain and work with these technological groups to figure out um what's the best way to do it.
▶ 1:22:32The safest way to do it, that's the important thing is safety. So, we're more than willing and have spent time and money doing that. Thank you. Mr. Shannon, can you highlight how the current regulatory process at FRA has stifled innovation?
▶ 1:22:52I would say the only the concerns that we might have would be where any kind of regulatory process specified a solution and and sort of shut down the the motivation for our car owner members and the technology companies we work with to innovate to chase an outcome as opposed to build something that's been Um, it's important that we focus on the outcomes and the performance
▶ 1:23:22we want out of the system and use the innovation engine that is North American embodied in the North American technology sector to come up with the best solutions to address those challenges as opposed to having the solution mandated for us. Mr. Gabart, same question. Can you highlight how the current regulatory process at FRA has stifled innovation?
▶ 1:23:48We we work within the frameworks that the uh the FRA has on some of these if we had more outcomebased metrics for success to go ahead and move forward so that we could move forward on the waiver process and then move forward into actual adoption that could help the process overall. So outcomebased not not the mandating. Well, outcomebased meaning we state what the outcome would be for this technology to be accepted.
▶ 1:24:16So, it might have to have 98% accuracy or it might have to last a certain amount of time. Being more outcome based on that could help us through the process. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm out of time and I yield back. Thank you very much. Uh, Mr. Dio recognize Mr. Five minutes. Thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, welcome everyone. I'm particularly glad to see a Western Pennsylvania company and WebTech represented here.
▶ 1:24:46Uh, Mr. Gard, I'll start with you. I know the company is doing quite a bit of innovation around uh, locomotive and rail technologies uh, making lots of products for Amtrak and others across the rail industry. I'll note the bipartisan infrastructure law I think was a really important investment uh, that helped support development of those technologies for Amtrak in particular and others. I think there's ripple effect right helping other manufacturers Tell me about some of the work you guys are doing on locomotive technology.
▶ 1:25:16What are the opportunities and some alternative energies? What can the Congress be doing? What should we be thinking about uh to help stimulate some of that development? Yeah, thank you uh Congressman for the uh for the question. Uh when I look at the technologies we're really working on, we're working a lot with our tier 4 locomotives. You lost your mic, Mr. Governor. Yeah. Okay.
▶ 1:25:39With our with our tier four locomotives and also with our modernizations where we're taking uh with the tier 4 78 uh% reduction in knock 70% reduction in particulate matter with our modernizations taking older uh locomotives and bringing them up to uh to modern standards. uh when we do that the IGA really helps with that because it opens this up to the uh the the short lines allows them to step into this and really helps with the funding of that on the development side.
▶ 1:26:10Uh some of the uh the R&D grants that are coming through are helping with the alternative fuels that you had mentioned there. We're working with bofuels, renewable fuels to make sure that those are are capable technologies there. We've also been working uh with LNG. We have a number of liquid natural gas units that are operating right now as an alternative fuel. Uh and uh these were a lot of things that were developed under some grants that were uh were done.
▶ 1:26:35So we are very supportive of continuing these types of grants to really bring this uh technology forward. Well, it seems to me there's a business benefit if you can get your fuel and energy costs down. Uh I think there's an air quality benefit for all of us and so I think this is a good opportunity. The Congress should pay attention here as well. Uh Mr. Cardwell, I want to come to you as well. I I pick up on some of the discussion about automated track inspections, and your point's a good one to me.
▶ 1:27:01Um, as I hear it, that you and your members are all about better technology, helping the railroads implement this stuff, but you need humans in the mix. You need humans involved. Tell me what this looks like to one of your members, how this technology, how they use it, how you see this being implemented in a way that is safest, uh, and that brings to bear the expertise your members have. Let's just take the ATI machines for example.
▶ 1:27:27Um the the one that was primary discussion today uh concerning track inspections. Our our track inspectors are happy when the ATI machine comes through the territory because it catches certain defects that the human eye can't. And so they they're glad to see it come through the territory because it catches geometry measurements that the human eye can't catch and that's always helpful. So they they like when that comes through. But there's many things that these machines can't catch that the human eye can. There's a whole list.
▶ 1:27:58In fact, uh the large majority, 73% of the track defects can only be caught by the human eye. And so they like working with that technology. They they're glad when it comes through their region or territory. Um there's there's many other uh the machinery that is being used today on the railroad is much more advanced and and they love operating that equipment. Um, it has cut jobs, but we're we're we're happy with the machinery because it's more efficient and safer.
▶ 1:28:25And some of the things that you just mentioned, a big percentage, I think 70 or so percent, you're saying that the human eye can only capture. Give me some examples of what that might be. Sure. So, for example, just a broken rail cannot be caught by the ATI machinery. Um, the rail, what happens when it heats up and it cools, it expands and contracts. And so that rail breaks and it happens all the time. There's literally probably several hundred broken rails a day across the railroads.
▶ 1:28:54And those broken rails can cause derailment obvious for obvious reasons. Is and is that one of the if is that the number one cause of derailment? Track issues like that. Track issues are the number one cause of derailment. I think 50 plus percent of tractor derail elements are caused by uh are caused by real defects and most importantly in switches and this this ATI machinery does not pick up most of the defects inside of a switch.
▶ 1:29:20Most most derailments are caused within a switch and and where that one one train goes to another track. It goes from one track to another and in that switch there's a lot of defects that cannot be detected by any mach any technology right now. Very good Mr. Carwell. Our time is up. Uh thank you both, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you very much. Uh Mr. Nails, you're recognized for five minutes. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh as we talk about this this ATI, you talk about 73%. I'm just going to make a comment.
▶ 1:29:49I I believe that, you know, East Palestine couple years ago, a little over two years ago, February of 2023. I think ATI is a good thing. I think it really, really is. Uh that technology is available today and I believe it improves safety. I I don't believe the class ones uh really want to go out there and have derailments. I mean, it just doesn't make sense.
▶ 1:30:11So, they're they're spending an enormous amount of money with this ATI because they want to continue to have what I would say is a a very good record on moving goods and services across our country and doing it very safely. I applaud them for that. Uh I believe I I I don't believe ATI was really ever created to completely uh eliminate visual inspections. I don't think that was the the intent here. I believe it's an augment. It will augment the visual inspections.
▶ 1:30:40Now whether the FRA is saying 75% whatever they I I I don't I don't know about that. But I I I do not believe uh you know when the class ones are investing in this technology it's costing money. I've been around. I've seen these these these machines that that travel to and fro. Uh and and it's costing them an enormous amount of money. I I believe it's all in the name of safety. And they're deploying these things along the network.
▶ 1:31:06Uh and at some point in time, this technology may justify reducing the workforce. I It just makes sense. You you mentioned 73% with this evolving technology. Let's say ATI identifies six or whatever the number is. Everybody's going to have a number of of these flaws, these deficiencies. What happens when the technology is so good it can identify all of it that we don't maybe don't need any of you to do it?
▶ 1:31:33Would you support that then or would you say, "Well, I just don't believe that that's no." If the data is safe to if the data first of all, uh, Congressman Niels, we thank you for your leadership and your and your work for us. Uh I would I would I would say that if the technology proves safer then the unions have to adapt to it and we have historically across uh all levels of machinery we've been more than willing to allow that technology in as it's proven safe in this case.
▶ 1:32:03I guess I just want to I got a couple minutes I want to talk about really the uh modernization act. But the point I'm trying to make is is management and labor you got to get together to talk about we're all concerned about safety. I when I was a chairman of this subcommittee, we had all the unions in there. We were trying to get some good legislation on improving safety. But let's understand that I I don't believe the class ones are out there. They want to see derailments today. And I have to say for the last couple years, it's been pretty good. We haven't had any mushroom clouds over any of our communities in the past two plus years. And thank goodness we haven't.
▶ 1:32:33So I applaud the class ones and everybody else that's working hard to to keep our rail uh as safe as possible. I'm sure you all may be familiar with the bipartisan bill. It's the HR 2515, the Tank Car Modernization Act. That's my bill and I led it with uh Seth Molton, uh, Congressman Molton.
▶ 1:32:51This bill will provide Department of Transportation grants through the FRA directly to rail car owners for the purchase and installation of Telmatics devices with the achievable goal of greatly speeding up the adoption of Telmatics on the 1.6 million rake cars. I mean, this is just common sense. This is put this is the heartbeat of the car. Why wouldn't we do this if the technology is there?
▶ 1:33:13Having Telmatics on an increasing number of freight rail cars will significantly provide upgraded supply chain visibility, safety safety enhancements, create maintenance efficiencies, and enable comprehensive telematics solutions for the shippers and the stakeholders in the rail system. That's just common sense, you guys. It's common sense.
▶ 1:33:32For far too long, we have talked about increasing the use of freight rail and bringing the rail system into the modern ages when the solution it's right in front of us and has been effectively used by trucking. It's been using by the trucking industry for decades. We just don't use it in the rail. Mr. Shannon, please illustrate the position of rail pulse on HR 2515 and how the legislation would impact the entire rail industry. First, we're very supportive. Thank you very much.
▶ 1:34:01um how it would influence the industry I think is it it changes the economics that our biggest challenge right now with the adoption of telematics on rail cars is the justification of the initial expense of equipping a rail car. Sure. And and through the lens today of a car owner they they need to to to do an ROI equation for themselves based on the direct benefits. Those direct benefits may or may not be equal to Thank you, Mr. Mr. Gart. How do you feel? How's Webte? Good deal.
▶ 1:34:30We're very supportive of uh of telematics. I've got 10 seconds. I'm going to finish up. We've talked to hund hundreds of people in the rail industry over the past few years. Common sense themes of using freight rail keep coming up. Using rail is complex. It's inconsistent and can be more costly than other molds. And I want freight rail to be used more. We want it to be used more, not yes. And it's a safe way to transport the goods America needs to thrive and grow.
▶ 1:34:55The entire operating system needs to be averse to the modern solutions we give shippers more of a reason to use it. So, let's get this done. It's bipartisan. I'm looking forward to working with industry, labor on how we can make rail the safest possible mode of transportation in the country. Thank you. I yield. Thank you very much. Uh, Miss Fors, you're recognized for f five minutes.
▶ 1:35:21Thank you, Chairman Webster and Ranking Member Titus for holding this hearing and thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Mr. Cartwell, under current regulations, if a track inspector finds a track defect, they are required to immediately do one of two things. Either take the track out of service or place a speed restriction on the track until the defect is fixed.
▶ 1:35:44Alternatively, under AR's recently submitted waiver, if a railroad is using automated track inspection technology or ATI, they would have 72 hours to send out an inspector to check the defect, but there aren't currently any requirements to take the track out of service or reduce train speeds until the defect is fixed.
▶ 1:36:09As we are all acutely aware, safety regulations often have to play catch-up as new technologies like ATR developed or deployed. And it seems obvious to me that this is an area that needs to be seriously looked at by the DOT.
▶ 1:36:26Can you speak a little about the way in which this loophole in federal regulation can lead to increased risks in rail safety and why it's important for automated track inspection technology to be subject to the same safety protocols as human inspectors? It's it's it's pretty hard to understand why um why they would ask for such an exception.
▶ 1:36:53Uh, it's a serious safety concern that we have a 72-hour delay of putting a remedy on a defect. Just for a quick explanation, when a track inspector finds a defect, he stops or slows down that track. He can slow the speed down so it's safer to travel across. He can stop any trains from going over it. He may fix the defect itself, but there's a remedy immediately taken. And in this case, they're asking for 72 hours.
▶ 1:37:19I I don't know that anyone wants to be around a railroad track where a defect is on that track for up to 72 hours without being corrected. I know I wouldn't go anywhere near it. Um and it's a danger. It's extreme danger. Uh the I think the the waiver is is is is extreme. Thank you for sharing that perspective.
▶ 1:37:39I think we all recognize the potential that developing technologies like automated track inspections and AI have um to help improve rail safety outcomes and protect our communities from accident. That said, I also firmly believe that it is of paramount importance that these new and exciting technologies are used in conjunction with and under the supervision of human inspectors and other trained rail safety workers, not as a substitute
▶ 1:38:09for them. Mr. Cartwell, I'm curious from your experience how you've seen new technologies assist the critical role that human inspectors play interpret in interpreting this influx of tech generated data and why you think it's important to have humans not computers making real safety decisions.
▶ 1:38:41The question we can work together makes it makes it better is because our our people that do the work know it best. Um they do the work. We have an average of I think 29 years of seniority in the rail industry. Those folks know this work inside and out and they can work with the with the people that do this work um in conjunction with them and help them uh bring make a safer railroad.
▶ 1:39:04We believe that we can take the derailment which the derailments that are happening right now per million rail miles traveled are as high as they've ever been. You know, we did measurements against clear back to 2015 and we still have the same amount of derailments today as we did in 2015 uh per per rail mile traveled.
▶ 1:39:24We think working together we can lower that derailment um those derailments in in America by um using this technology but also working with the human inspection inspectors and human workers that do this work and their professionals and work in conjunction with them and we can build a better railroad.
▶ 1:39:42And one final question, it's critically important that innovations in real car inspection technology are used to support and supplement in-person inspections performed by qualified mechanical inspectors. So, how can automated track inspection technology be used to support the vital safety work that um our BMWed members perform every day?
▶ 1:40:23that that ATI machinery catches uh measurements. It measures the track constantly and in doing so a human inspector can't do that. So, it works well for what it does and we believe uh that they should continue to use it. In fact, we propose they should use it more often, not less. Um because it does catch those measurements that the human eye can't. Um it works well uh in the areas that it's been used. It works well. We're not opposed to it uh at all.
▶ 1:40:50We just the the current FRA uh proposal that we had um from a year ago is still sitting on the table that can be picked up and used and it it proposes that we use it more often, not less often. And we support that that bill. Thank you for that. I yield back, Mr. Thank you very much, Mr. Mayan. You're recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for having this hearing and thank you all for being here this morning.
▶ 1:41:18I represent the big first dissert of Kansas, which is roughly um twothirds of of the state, most of the western and some of the eastern part as well. Kansas, my state, is served by more than 4,600 miles of active rail owned and operated by 14 individual freight railroads that connect our manufacturers, farmers, producers, and natural resources to domestic and foreign customers.
▶ 1:41:42These railroads move nearly 40 million tons of freight across Kansas annually and serve as a huge economic driver for the economy. Our freight railroad operations must focus on keeping our communities, consumers, and workforce safe while ensuring our nation's supply chains remain efficient. Overburdensome regulations, um, rules and regulations can greatly hinder these efforts to move goods and people across the network. And I look forward to hearing from you all today on how Congress can help alleviate some of these burdens.
▶ 1:42:12Um, a handful of questions. Um, first for you, Mr. Mr. Gart. What are some of the challenges that businesses like yours face when government rules and regulations are inconsistently applied? Well, consistency of course is is important there and making sure that uh that they can be applied because we don't want to have uh a locomotive for every state in order to meet requirements.
▶ 1:42:42Also, we don't want to have different varying degrees there. So, we try to have consistency. We'd like to try to build black Fords as much as possible. Our tier 4 locomotive, we like to build those. We'd like them to have constant uh standards for that. C can you elaborate on how a more comprehensive regulatory reform such as moving to performance-based framework could provide greater certainty to railroads and and to rail suppliers. Yeah. And this this is something that's uh that's important to us also.
▶ 1:43:12So, we've been monitoring our locomotives for a long time now. We we talk about telematics since 1998. We've been pulling data back on our locomotives and right now we have uh 18,000 locomotives that we pull the data back on. We get 10 million data uh messages a day.
▶ 1:43:29We can analyze all of that to understand how can we extend intervals, how do we work differently, how do we make sure that we improve the product so that it can be a conditionbased maintenance, condition based inspections and condition based intervals. Uh it's important in my view. Um last question and again for you Mr. Gart. You know, we often associate regulations with safety, but ignore the positive role that deregulation may have in promoting the exact same outcomes.
▶ 1:43:58In the real industry, how important have past deregulations been in improving safety outcomes? I I would I would say I'll I'll talk more generally about what we do around safety. uh on this safety is paramount to all that we do and we focus uh very tightly on that. We think about positive train control and such around this positive train control.
▶ 1:44:24We do a million miles a day of data we get back and so we understand exactly how the trains are operating such there. We then put our to our trip optimizer which is the adaptive cruise control to help the uh engineers and conductors operate the trains through the train to drive down the uh drive down the fuel usage on that but also drive up the safety. The train handling is part of what it does there. We gather all this data, we learn from the data, we make it better.
▶ 1:44:53And I think that's what a lot of this big data that people are talking about. We've been doing it now for 30 years, almost 30 years now, pulling all this data back. We learn a lot from it. We're starting to apply AI, but most of what we do is deterministic right now. And whenever we do use AI, we put a human in the loop just to make sure that the right answers are going back on that. Great. Well, thank you all for being here. Thanks for your time. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you very much, Mr. Garcia, you're recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:45:22Chairman, uh, ranking member, and to all the witnesses here, uh, today, uh, Mr. Gart, your company, uh, develops and maintains software used by train dispatchers. Uh for instance, uh train dispatchers employed by a major commuter railroad continue to experience issues with their dispatching system developed and maintained by Webte.
▶ 1:45:48These issues include the system glitching and incorrectly showing train locations. The only solution WebTech has offered to these train dispatchers is to turn off and restart their computers. While the computers were turned off, no backup system was in place and the train dispatcher had no way of knowing the location of trains or monitoring on track worker safety.
▶ 1:46:16In other words, the train dispatcher was completely in the dark until the computer restarted. Dispatchers had to restart their computers several times a day and the issue persisted for years. Mr.
▶ 1:46:32Chair, I'd like to request uh unanimous consent to submit a letter for the record from the American Train Dispatchers Association dated March 27th, 2024 to the FRA outlining dangerous flaws where the dispatch system provided inaccurate and failed to display the position of the power operated switches controlled by the train dispatcher.
▶ 1:46:57This issue occurred at BNSF which also uses a dispatch system developed and maintained by Webte. Mr. Gart, uh I'm very concerned about the flaws reported by the ATDA and the workers on the ground. Uh what is the average time that it takes for your company to resolve safety concerns that are reported by workers such as trained dispatchers?
▶ 1:47:29Well, I'm not aware of the specific issue that you uh brought up there, but we'd be more than happy to get back to you on that. For safety issues, we take those very seriously. In fact, we typically get back within hours rather than within days. So, I would like to learn more about the case that you brought up there and make sure that I can understand it better and take whatever actions are necessary uh on that.
▶ 1:47:52And to my question, the time that it takes to resolve safety concerns that are reported by workers uh such as train dispatchers. Yeah. So once once a safety case comes into labech, we immediately start taking action there. We try to work through a triage process where we decide what the severity of the safety issue is and then decide what the short-term containment plan would be and then what the long-term corrective action is. Is there an average time on those reports?
▶ 1:48:22I don't have that available. And what steps do you commit to take to ensure that technology used by trained dispatchers is fixed? I missed the last word. What tech what commitments will you take to ensure that technology used by trained dispatchers is fixed? So we we have a rigorous safety process internal.
▶ 1:48:47We also work with the FRA, the TSA and others to make sure we meet all the applicable safety standards and typically our internal safety standards are higher. Thank you. Uh Mr. Cardwell, I understand the flaws with the dispatcher software can pose severe safety risk to workers on the train tracks and the general public. Should new technologies such as dispatch systems be overseen by the Federal Railroad Administration?
▶ 1:49:19Thank you for the question. The answer is yes. Uh when we have workers out on the tracks and the dispatchers are watching our back. They're the ones that keep the trains from coming in on our work groups. And if there's a glitch or there's problems that that that puts our our workers in in peril and and I would argue that it should be regulated. If it's not and there is an incident where there's a glitch like that, it would be devastating. Um so the answer is yes. Well, thank you Mr.
▶ 1:49:47Cardwell and of course uh thank you and all the witnesses for being here today. I yield Thank you so much. Uh Mr. Westerman, you recognize for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you to the witnesses for for being here today.
▶ 1:50:02You know, as we talk about innovation and and construction and all the things we would like to see uh not only in our rail system, but really in the infrastructure across our country, an issue that comes up often is permitting and permitting reform. department.
▶ 1:50:19As you're aware, in a recent uh 80 Supreme Court ruling uh that involved the railroad in the uh Uenta Basin out in Utah, uh the Supreme Court said something that we've been saying for a long time that NEPA is a process to review permitting. It's not uh something that produces an outcome.
▶ 1:50:46But I think this is a a major decision by the court and as Justice Kavanaaugh said, Congress did not design NEPA for judges to hamstring new infrastructure and construction projects. So I would just like to maybe start with Mr. Shannon and go down the DAS or the the table and uh tell me how important permitting reform is uh in your area.
▶ 1:51:16I'll confess permitting reform is out of scope really for rail pulse. You know, we are the car owners, so we don't get involved in permitting for railroad new track or anything like that. So, I I'd have to So, building more rails wouldn't help your your business. It it certainly could, but it is outside of the scope of what we do. It would be more of our members focus. Um, Congressman Westerman, thank you for the question. Um, permitting reform is crucial.
▶ 1:51:46You know, we used to be an America of builders. We built things. It is next to impossible to get anything built. And whether you're on the left or you're on the right, uh, these permitting regulations affect us all. And NEPA was never meant to be a bedrock environmental law. It's a process law. And as you know, at the end of NEPA, you can go ahead and build it even if it says there going to be significant adverse consequences. We have to reform it because it's being used by the loser to hold up projects.
▶ 1:52:16Our infrastructure is deteriorating and it's got to be Mr. Gard, we're not directly involved in the permitting process but as a technology company, but anything that uh helps move more freight by rail and allows more infrastructure to be built would be positive for the industry.
▶ 1:52:38See, I would argue that you are impacted by NEPA because you can't implement your your technology if you can't get a if if people can't get a permit to correct build new infrastructure. And I I think that's one of the disconnects that we have that we don't realize just how impactful the the permitting process is and the way it's been weaponized to stop things from happening. It's also easy to stop something from happening.
▶ 1:53:08The difficult work is in actually building something and making things uh happen. Mr. Yeah, we support the NEPA reforms on Bright Line and and a lot of the railroad that's coming is we think it's All right. U Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you very much. Mr. Nadler, you recognize for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:53:39Um, Mr. Cardwell, by law, safety waiverss may only be granted if they are in the public interest and enhance safety. Both the National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Railroad Administration have stated that automatic automated track geometry systems should sub should supplement not replace visual inspections.
▶ 1:54:02In your view, what rationale have the railroads provided for continuing to purs to pursue the safety waiver and how does that align with existing safety guidance? Obviously, I I I think they're cost cutting measures. I I'm not entirely sure because they're not safe, that's for sure. Um, I believe they're cost cutting measures.
▶ 1:54:32I believe they're job elimination attempts. You believe what? Because we were I couldn't hear you. You believe the cost cutting measures. I'm sorry. Finish your statement. I couldn't hear you. You believe the cost cutting Yeah. That's why you believe the cost cutting measures. What? I didn't I couldn't hear you. What was the question? Oh, I apologize.
▶ 1:55:02Uh, we believe that they're cost cutting measures. Um, that's that's it. Uh, they're definitely not providing a safer railroad. Uh, so we believe the attempts are just cost cutting measures. Okay. Thank you. As you know, automated track inspection systems can detect only one track of only one category of track uh defect geometry. But inspectors are trained to identify 17 additional types of defects that ATI cannot detect.
▶ 1:55:30Why is it so important to search for all potential hazards, not just those related to track the there's 23 defects co defect codes under the FRA and there's subsets of those defect codes and it only finds six. So tract the ATI technology can only find six of the 23 different defects.
▶ 1:56:01That's extremely dangerous. That means a large percentage of the defects won't be detected by the ATI. So if we reduce the human inspection, visual inspection, then those defects won't be able to be found. That's a dangerous dangerous situation. Okay.
▶ 1:56:15And what would be the safety impact of reducing inspection frequency for those 17 other types of defects from twice weekly to just twice That means that we would be going approximately 14 to 15 days between inspections on those tracks. That's that's dangerous.
▶ 1:56:40If there's a track defect out on that track that can't be found by ATI and it sits there for 14 days with millions of pounds of of of chemicals and passengers uh going over those rails, I think I think that's just It's dangerous. And can you can you share how recent technological innovations have helped track inspectors uh do their jobs better?
▶ 1:57:14Yeah, there's there's all kinds of technological advances that help us do our jobs better. There's new technology coming regularly in the industry, new machinery uh that helps uh we the physical labor that our workers do uh is being enhanced by the machinery that's coming in and and I say it keeps it helps keeps the in injuries down um it keeps uh potential death down because uh the machinery has new technology in it that avoids collisions and things of
▶ 1:57:45that nature. So there is great technology out there that's doing great things for our members and keeping them safer. Uh we're willing to adopt those and we're willing to work with ATI technology as well. We've asked for the data, the information. We've insisted on wanting to know and and speak with the people uh that develop this technology and the people that are overseeing this technology to understand, you know, how it works and what it does. Um and we continue to be uh kept it kept away from the technology from from the railroads.
▶ 1:58:15Okay. Thank you. A moment ago, I asked for the uh what what would be the safety impact of reducing inspection frequency for those 17 other types of defects from twice weekly twice monthly. You answered the question. My last question is um what are the railroads doing? Are they in fact reducing inspection uh from twice weekly to twice monthly?
▶ 1:58:43Yeah, they're they're not only asking for a reduction in in inspections, they're asking for a 72-hour period up to 72 hours before they correct the defects. And I assume you think that either National Transportation Safety Board or Congress should remedy that. Yeah, that's just so dangerous.
▶ 1:59:03uh remedy the defect of 72 hours is is is completely if any railroader that's done railroad work we're in this room we we just laugh at it. Thank you. My time is expired. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. I recognize uh Representative Taylor for five minutes for questions. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member Titus for holding this hearing today.
▶ 1:59:33And thank you to all of our witnesses for uh your testimony and insight and the sacrifices I'm sure you all made to be here. Ohio has 44 operating railroads and over 5,000 miles of track, making Ohio the third largest rail infrastructure state in the nation. With Ohio's presence in the rail industry, adopting and implementing new techn technologies could result in huge growth for southern Ohio. Mr. Macau. In your testimony, you highlighted how the United States regulatory process has hindered technological growth in the rail industry.
▶ 2:00:03I'm proud that the first bill I introduced in Congress, the Regulation Decimation Act Act, would remove burdensome, unnecessary, and counterproductive regulations that prevent innovation and growth. Mr. Mr. Mac, as this committee works on drafting the upcoming surface transportation reauthorization bill, what regulations and/or processes within the Federal Railroad Administration should we be examining to remove regulatory bottlenecks? Mr. Taylor, thank you for the question and as a native Ohio, I appreciate your comments there as well.
▶ 2:00:33You know, we need to move from prescription to performance-based policies to make sure that a nobody can take advantage of shortcuts. No one's going to be self-regulated, but we're hitting performance metrics. We need to be outcomebased instead of prescriptive. The goal is transparency and incentivizing innovation. Let's be agnostic on the technology that's used to meet and exceed its target.
▶ 2:00:58The goal of continuous improvement is to constantly drive down the number of incidents to make them less severe, to occur less often. By doing this, we're unleashing innovation and we're we will see cottage industries further develop and innovate in this area. But by telling somebody you have to do it this way, we're already losing. Thank you.
▶ 2:01:25Implementation of new technologies in our rail industry could help make our track safer, reduce delays, and improve product delivery. It's imperative that the de development of new technologies and American innovation is encouraged. As one example, Mr. Shannon, I was glad to hear that rail pulse is being utilized throughout Ohio, keeping our communities safe. However, as a small business owner, I understand the difficulties that smaller companies may have in adopting new technologies. Mr. Shannon, from an industry industry perspective, what can be done to help encourage the adoption of new technologies?
▶ 2:01:57I think it's a great observation. Um the technology that we're talking about on rail cars is is not horribly expensive, but at the same time for small businesses, small rail car owners, we are talking about a significant investment.
▶ 2:02:11And so one thing that can be done and should be done would be providing incentives to encourage the adoption of this technology, financial incentives through Chrissy Grant or similar public private kind of I heard at one point that it's it's sort of cheaper to get it on a new car than it is to put onto a an existing car. Is that true? It can be cheaper to put it on a new car.
▶ 2:02:35The core technology is very similar regardless of whether it's a new tech a new car or an existing car, but capturing a car in service and getting to that car um locking it down if you will so that you can safely install the equipment can cost more for sure. So, uh, to say it's a bigger challenge for like short line railroads or smaller operations, a bigger challenge for shortline railroads can be a bigger challenge for private car owning shippers. Thank you.
▶ 2:03:04The benefit that new technologies can provide in preventing accidents should be one of Congress's top priorities. With East Palestine derailment in my home state of Ohio, we are keenly aware of how important it is to prevent tragedies before they happen. Mr. Ghart, your company web WebTech produces a couple of different products that seek to prevent AC accidents. Can you go into more detail about these two technologies that can detect potential accidents and seek to prevent them? We do a number of technologies that are uh specifically focused on safety.
▶ 2:03:33We have a kinetics uh inspection technologies platform that uses acoustic technology, thermal technology, uh visual technology to look for uh defects, potential issues that are going to be uh coming along there. We also have technology for incoming inspection into yards. And now we're developing technology that actually will go under the trains to go ahead and inspect for the outgoing inspections to augment the work that the uh the yard workers are already doing there.
▶ 2:04:01So, we are working to try to uh make rail safer. We're working with the locomotives, of course, but then we're also working with the rail cars. Real quickly, anything big on the horizon that we haven't heard about that's coming out as far as this kind of safety technology? Yeah, I I would say probably the most exciting one that uh that we have is what we call our rail ghost. It is actually something that's going to go under the trains inside the yards or in sightings and can do a lot of the inspections uh there. We're working on the visual inspections now.
▶ 2:04:30We'll put different measureans on there over time, but it's a very exciting technology will augment what the yard workers are already doing. Thank you and thank you all very much. Chairman, I yield back. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Donier for five minutes for questions. Very nice pronunciation. It's like you took French high school French or something. Um, well, I just I want to thank you and the ranking member for this hearing. It's fascinating.
▶ 2:04:59I represent a district in the east bay of the Bay Area. I've dealt with innovators in the innovation economy for a long time because I'm old and long time ago I was admonished by somebody in that field. Do not let the technology seduce you. So we want to we want to take the value of all this wonderful technology but make sure it also works in the real world. So Mr. Cardwell start with you.
▶ 2:05:25Um, as a former Teamster member, um, I have my withdrawal card from many years ago from local 170 in Worcester, Massachusetts, where I worked for trucking companies, starting at a as a warehouseman and then later working as a dispatcher. So, I know something about long time ago logistics from those two perspectives, working graveyard shifts when I was going to college.
▶ 2:05:47So to your point, I think sometimes us who are in the labor field um and I'm a senior member of the educational labor committee, we get accused of being modern-day ludites and we're against innovation. But my experience is we have evolved to where we see the value, but we want to make sure that the human part of it is connected.
▶ 2:06:08We deal with this on the aviation subcommittee of which some of us are on is when the technology and the procurement process gets ahead of the human beings then we have disasters or mistakes which affect everybody and I would argue sets innovation back so trying to get that right balance um how are we do doing that particularly in goods movement all this benefit which and I love your comments Mr.
▶ 2:06:34Cohen about Mako Cohen about performance-based outbased driven this should be an example I think in goods movement how we move product um but we have to have humans involved in that so could you speak to that how do you engage with management not just to protect your workers um which I want to be part of but do it in a way that's thoughtful that that and I know you do this already is if humans aren't involved there's nobody to check as you've already said to make sure that the technology is working properly and If the humans
▶ 2:07:04don't understand the technology and we haven't provided the infrastructure in workforce development the way other industrialized countries like the Germans do, it doesn't work and it just becomes this battle over profit motive and where the money goes to. So how do we fit that balance? Um and how have you engaged to make sure that you're part of that? Sure. We want to partner with this and we are excited about the Chrissy grants.
▶ 2:07:30We've uh ourselves are applying for are going to apply for a bunch of them and have um and we're so we can train our members with this new technology as well. That funding that comes in is helpful. Um, we want to partner with with anybody who's willing, including including the the the gentleman here to work on uh to work on these issues to make sure that our our workers are part of this this change and evolution in technology.
▶ 2:08:00Um, we're more willing to do that. But what we cannot do and will not do is compromise the safety aspect of it. The technology is not proven and it and where it is proven, it works well. And we're willing to adopt those technological changes for the re for safety alone. What we cannot do is accept this technology if it's not proven to be safe and if it doesn't catch certain things.
▶ 2:08:23Um it was testified to in the hearing uh that it was testified to in the um Senate hearings that uh 90% more defects are found by ATI. It's just not true. it can only find it can only find, you know, up to uh six out of the 23 defect codes within the FRA. So, there's no way that it's increased that much. If if there were that much increase in defect fines from this technology, then there would be a huge workload increase as well.
▶ 2:08:53And that workload hasn't gone up. Um it's it's maintained the same. Um, I would argue that that we are for this technology and want to continue working with uh with these different groups. Mr. Macau, I want to ask you, thank you for that question in the short time I have left. Representing an area that's the fifth wealthiest district in the country, but also having a lot of goods movement in there. It's this urban uh industrial interface in the Bay Area.
▶ 2:09:21We've got four refineries, hazard material, and then we've got the port of Oakland. So trying to manage that has always been a struggle. We've had some pretty good success when um the industrial partners have worked with us, but unfortunately there are some people in the private sector who drive to uh lots of short-term investment returns. So shortly, how do we balance all of this in an area like that? Yeah, thank you so much uh sir.
▶ 2:09:47You know, I uh I first came to Washington DC working for a South Bay gentleman whose portrait hangs to your left and so I understand that I'm aware of him. Uh it is a balancing uh process and oftentimes the truth is in the middle. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Fong for five minutes for questions. Uh thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 2:10:12Um certainly I I uh I echo the comments made that there's certainly value to uh technology innovation. Uh it's transforming the transportation industry, but we need to um uh see that it it it moves forward uh in in the rail space. Um Mr. Gart, the research that that WebTech has uh has has been doing uh sounds very promising when it comes to supply chain improvements.
▶ 2:10:36wanted to get your take on how the federal government can better support the development and commercial deployment of innovative uh railroad teleics. Yeah, this this is an important topic and uh you know I I would break it down into a couple of areas. The first being helping with the development phase with some R&D funding. You know, public p uh private partnerships around that because some of these technologies might be 8 10 years away.
▶ 2:11:04Making investments on that on a moving target is something that some government encouragement can definitely help uh with that. And then I I I providing waiverss so we can actually get some of the technology out on the track to go ahead and test it and of course a safe manner. We always want to make sure we're doing everything in a safe manner there. And then making sure that there's outcomebased uh approvals for things. I'll give uh one quick example on this. Zero to zero is one of our technologies.
▶ 2:11:34We've had uh trip optimizer in operation since 2009, but it kicks in at about 9 miles an hour on the way up and about 12 miles an hour on the way back down again. We've worked technology to go from start to finish from zero to zero on the other sides there. This is an adaptive cruise control. It helps with the uh having better fuel, better train handling and such around this technology and that's something where some help in moving that forward would be uh would be demonstrated.
▶ 2:12:04We've proven that it's safe. Now we just need to get some test time on that one. I appreciate that. I think if we've learned anything from 2020 and the pandemic, we need to be investing more in in supply chain to to ensure that um we reduce delays and ensure that essential goods are moving to the market. Um to Mr. Shannon, I wanted to ask how are small or regional railroads, shortland railroads, how are they being brought into the modernization effort? Um are there integration barriers that we need to be cognizant of? Um cost barriers?
▶ 2:12:36Well, first I would say the the small regional railroads we are actively working with as much as possible including within our ownership. Um we have a the short line uh railroads are represented as a class of owners within rail pulse so that we get their insights and opinions in terms of driving rail pulse forward.
▶ 2:12:55Uh, I would also add that I think the the small regional railroads are very important to driving the adoption of this technology because they have such a tight affinity working with the shippers and their customers and these are and and helping them get the benefits out of this technology.
▶ 2:13:14Um, that being said, comment that was made earlier about they are small, they're not as cashrich, and those that have fleets of rail cars that they would like to see instrumented, any help that can be done to help accelerate the adoption of the technology on their behalf or for them would be would be valuable. Sure. Well, certainly someone who represents the central valley of California, rail is very important for us in moving our products, whether it's agriculture or manufacturing or or energy, oil and natural gas, uh to to where it needs to go.
▶ 2:13:44Um, building off of your answer, you know, what are the biggest, you know, policy or bureaucratic obstacles? Uh, what are they to deploying sensorbased monitoring and automated track Did you say track inspection? Automated uh well, ATI. Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, rail pulse is not involved in track inspection. So we are uh telemetry telematics on rail cars.
▶ 2:14:09Uh that information can be used uh to improve the the the safety the the the health of the rail cars. U the the sort of answer to your question. I I'll comment on Mr. McAllen. Focusing on outcomes is probably the single biggest thing. performance metrics so that we stay we don't hamstrung the the innovation in the industry. Thank you.
▶ 2:14:35Maybe that question was better addressed you Miss Macallen in terms of how how what are the biggest obstacles to employing new technologies? Yes. Um thank you so much for the question. You know the truth is that it's not oneizefits-all and you know a rail track over here is not the same as the rail track over there. Yet we're treating them all the same. What we need to be able to do is manage the risk appropriately and then deploy assets human and technology to where they're needed.
▶ 2:15:03But right now, the FRA is set up where everything is monolithic. It's all the same. And uh you know, that's just not the best way to evaluate risk. And so these performance-based metrics allow operators to concentrate where the risks are and they're held accountable if they don't do that. I appreciate that. I've run out of time. I yield by you back. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Berles for five minutes for questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:15:34Mr. Ghart, um, artificial intelligence has the potential to revolutionize the world, but also the rail industry as well. from predictive m sorry predictive maintenance to inf infrastructure for optimizing train operations. AI AI has the capability to not only enhance efficiency but reliability and safety and I think that's important um to to to note.
▶ 2:16:04Um can you shed light on how AI is going to impact the rail industry in a positive way? Yeah, we have we have been working very closely uh with AI and developing that, but we're we're pacing it based on the real capabilities. We're making sure it's being tested. Uh as I had mentioned earlier, we pull in about 10 million data messages a day from our locomotives around the world and we process all of that.
▶ 2:16:31We've really been working over the last several years uh last uh decade or so uh with deterministic rules that are if then type statements let's put it that way. Now we're starting to do more and more with AI but as we understand AI we always have a human in the loop as that goes back. So we have automated rules that are deterministic. The AI there's a human in the loop on that.
▶ 2:16:54when we look at conditionbased maintenance and those types of things, we are using the AI to really pull forward that data so we know where can we extend intervals, where do we need to shorten intervals and then even within the engineering side, how do we improve the components to make sure we can continue to extend that and focus on safety. We make sure we focus very much on how do we make our products safer and safer. But AI is a fantastic tool at this point. We're really doing a lot of things with human in the loop.
▶ 2:17:24The only place that we're doing full AI is really around uh visual tools where we have a new rail spiker that we're doing where we can actually use AI in order to shoot the spikes in automatically. Those types of things that are non-safety related and things that uh uh that really take a lot of the visual technology. That's where we're using a lot of AI. Thank you. Um you had mentioned earlier about rail ghost. Is that right? Yes. Um can you describe that? So this is a robotic device.
▶ 2:17:54Yeah, this this is a robotic device and the goal is that longer term will be robotics and visual AI. So it has about 16 18 wheels in the sides there and it actually flows under the train and each of the wheels snaps back uh as it goes under the train. And what we're we're uh doing now is we're putting uh cameras, thermal guns, other things on this platform and therefore we'll be able to augment the inspections as it goes through.
▶ 2:18:21We're very excited about and uh we can move it at about 12 miles an hour so it can move very quickly through there, be able to put the data right in the hand of the yard workers to go ahead and see exactly what's going on there, maybe follow up with an inspection uh afterwards on those types of things. And then uh what what's also pretty cool about it is that we put it in what's called turtle mode where it can actually drop down inside the rails and then the train can just pull right over it and just go right out uh on the outgoing side of things.
▶ 2:18:50So we're really excited about the technology working with a couple of the class ones on this at this point to make sure that we can meet all their needs that they're looking for. And m Mr. Gart, is there anything that is holding you back in that regard? Is there are there any regulations or or laws that we need to evaluate that that are going to hold your industry back from doing from find innovating? Yeah. So on on that particular case of rail ghost there's not much uh holding us back on that one.
▶ 2:19:20I had mentioned the zero to zero trying to get the waiverss for zero to zero to go ahead and move forward with that which is the extension of our trip optimizer adaptive cruise control product. Uh that's one that we're we're working to try to move that one along. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I yield The gentleman yields back. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questions. First question, Mr.
▶ 2:19:45Cardwell, you mentioned that the average employee uh in the industry, has been active for 29 years uh in earlier testimony. A good blend of youth and experience helps to foster responsible innovation adoption. Do you have any concerns about an aging workforce in your industry? And if so, uh, what needs to happen in your opinion in order to for this to be addressed? No concerns about the age.
▶ 2:20:15The average time that they spend in seniority in the classification is 29 years. Um, we have a lot of young employees right now, too. Um, that the it's a good job. It's a good paying job and it's a career. These guys love what they do, so they stay for a long time. they t typically don't go out to other jobs. Um they're interested in the technology and they want to participate in it as as all the young people are these days. Um and they want to participate and operate this new machinery and technology as well. They're excited about it.
▶ 2:20:45Uh we believe there's a good relationship that can be formed there, but we can't compromise safety when we do it. Thank you. Uh next question. Uh Mr. Macauan. In your role as former president of Aliesco Pipeline, you oversaw critical infrastructure operations in some of the harshest and most remote conditions in the United States.
▶ 2:21:06How do you assess the applicability of advanced safety and inspection technologies such as automated track inspection or acoustic monitoring in similarly rugged and isolated environments like the Alaska Chairman Begage, thank you very much for your question. Um, I thoroughly enjoyed my time in Alaska and my wife would still like to move back there permanently.
▶ 2:21:30U, you know, pipeline safety regulations have evolved over the years into more Uh, we also use different tools for to measure different aspects of the pipeline. And in the pipeline industry, that has changed dramatically over the last 30 plus years. Your pipeline's almost 50 years old now with an enviable safety record. So it can be done.
▶ 2:21:55It's a combination of deploying technology also people and determining where your risks are. If you take that holistic system, there's no reason why we should be up here trying to drag rail into the 21st century. you know, we need these tools and the pace of technology and what's available today is different than it was just a couple years ago.
▶ 2:22:20And to follow up on that, from your experience, what federal policies or regulatory flexibilities would best support the deployment of remote sensing and predictive maintenance systems in frontier state infrastructure? Yeah. Well, uh, as I mentioned earlier, the, um, you know, no no two sets of track are alike.
▶ 2:22:41Different operating conditions, and, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, regulations are set up for a one-sizefits-all, which is again why I'd like to see more performance-based, but at the same time, when a waiver uh, gets held up, and I hate that term waiver, it's an equivalency. We're not waving anything. We're we're meeting the standard a different way. That's what encourages innovation. And so at the department, not just in FRA, these get held up for far too long.
▶ 2:23:09And in some cases, the standard they want you to meet is actually higher than the regulations. And and the uh the well-meaning DOT career folks pile things on. We need more flexibility, not less. And once you have a waiver that's being done over and over again, it's time to change the regulation. And for Alaska, Alaska is a different operating environment. And people need to understand that and quite frankly defer to folks who know best.
▶ 2:23:38I I so appreciate that you mentioned that Mr. McCallen. You you understand better than perhaps anyone in this room just how different Alaska can be as an operating environment and we do need to make sure our regulations are flexible uh with respect to the environments in which they apply. Um one question I'm going to open this up uh for any of the witnesses here. One of the challenges that we have in rail is the deployment cost of new rail.
▶ 2:24:04A lot of the conversation today focused on uh operations and innovations within the existing operating infrastructure. Um what technologies or opportunities for new technologies are on the horizon that can lower the cost for new rail I'll go ahead and take a quick stab at it.
▶ 2:24:34Um, regulatory certainty is required to deploy capital where you have risk, right? Uh, in any business, you're not going to invest into something. So, we need a stable regulatory environment where the rules aren't going to change depending on who's in the White House or what bureaucrat is in charge two years from now.
▶ 2:24:56So, by laying those rules down and by removing rules that no longer make sense, we can lessen the cost to build new things, to build new rail tracks, to build new highways that are safer and better than the existing ones that are out there.
▶ 2:25:12I app I appreciate that and I would just encourage uh the industry generally as we're looking at uh at innovations across uh the industry, let's also be sure we're looking at innovations that will drive down the cost and accelerate the deployment of new rail. Certainly uh in my home state of Alaska, we've had a long-standing dream to connect the lower 48 states through Canada to Alaska.
▶ 2:25:38We'd like to do that in a in a capital efficient manner and we'd like to do that in an expeditious manner and I think innovation is going to be one of the ways that we actually uh make that dream achievable. With that, my time is expired. I'd like to thank the witnesses and uh and ask if there are any further questions from any members of the subcommittee who have not been Seeing none, that concludes our hearing for today. Thank you again to the witnesses for your testimony.
▶ 2:26:09The subcommittee stands adjourned.