▶ 0:29:02the subcommittee will come to order. Um, I want to thank everyone for being here today to discuss the veterans readiness and employment program or VR. And the purpose of this program is to assist veterans and service members who have service connected disable uh disabilities with on the job training and education and skills they need in order to obtain meaningful employment to live full independent lives. When this program is appropriately administered VR& is more than just a benefits program.
▶ 0:29:30It's also vital first step for disabled veterans to become more financially independent and give back to their community and achieve their own American dream. uh I was a me I used the R& to go to law school at the age of 50 and uh led me to Congress so maybe we should cancel this program. That's a joke. Um I'm seriously this job right. Yeah, he got it. Like he's the only guy that got it.
▶ 0:29:58Um, so unfortunately VR has been at a crossroads for several years and unfortunately um, it's been abused by a lot of folks and I'm very thankful that over this last year our team has been able to investigate some of these potential fraud, waste and abuse cases and it includes site visits to Detroit, Buffalo, Baltimore and just last week the the folks got back from San Diego and and what they found is is truly disturbing.
▶ 0:30:24Uh we're now seeing an unprecedented increase in weight times and an increased burden on counselors with higher case loads. There's got to be a better balance of priorities in the program to make sure that veterans get what they need while also ensuring that the VA is a responsible steward of the taxpayers's investment. And I found that this is a responsibility that VA has a profound and constant inability to perform the oversight function. And but I'm also going to point the finger this way. We have an oversight responsibility.
▶ 0:30:56You have an oversight responsibility. And I think both sides of this fence have not been meeting that. Finally, my staff has also seen some data that veterans have been in this program for over 20 years. And many veterans are using more than $250,000 in benefit payments. And one veteran in Boston spent over $350,000 in 18 months. Another veteran in Los Angeles has spent $895,000 in six years and is still in rehab to employment phase of the program.
▶ 0:31:26If anyone's concerned about funding for veterans, they need to be concerned about what's going on in this program. Also, and cases like this are a direct result of VA granting entitlement extensions past the 48-month limit mandated by law for VR& recipients, well over 99% of the time or not doing their due diligence on the program.
▶ 0:31:44In fact, the VA committee last month or found out that since fiscal year 2024, extensions were approved while just 59 requests for extensions were denied. And that's statistically impossible for that to be a functioning number. Uh it's just absurd. I'm looking forward to hearing from the V about the real life examples that constitute granting a waiver.
▶ 0:32:14On paper, bureaucrats may just be completing a check in the box exercise instead of completing a thorough review. Additionally, we heard numerous concerns about long wait times. The current wait time for a veteran to be seen by a counselor in San Diego, Oakland, and Albuquerque is over 100 days. And 40% of regional offices take over 60 days for a veteran to meet a counselor for an initial evaluation above the VA goals of a 60-day maximum wait time. A month is too long.
▶ 0:32:40Making a veteran put their lives on hold for nearly a year before even being seen by a counselor is ridiculous and has a negative impact on not only their lives but their entire families. And finally, we found that 45% of participants within the VR program have successfully completed the program and subsequently re-entered it. That means that nearly half of the VRN participants complete a program successfully only to return to the program. I understand the need for the veteran whose disability worsens or re-enters a program with the goal of becoming gainfully employed again.
▶ 0:33:10However, 45% of individuals using a jobs program more than once is a failure and this will not stand on my watch any longer. We've also heard from VRE executive director himself that many veterans are retiring from their jobs and applying for VR to receive a substance allowance to supplement their income until they're able to receive a retirement benefits and social security.
▶ 0:33:32So in essence, some people are retiring from a job and then entering this program for a period of time to carry them into the the age when they're eligible for social security. That's not what this program was designed for. VA knows that there's abuse in this program. Yet again, I hear until I hear otherwise, VA is not working to fix the holes in the system. Period. And we can't ignore this because we can't let this program fail.
▶ 0:34:00Uh, finally, I recognize VR's latest IT project, the readiness deployment system, or RES, was launched as a pilot in 2024, and early reports showed that the program has been received very well. I know the VA states they're finally on the right path with the new case management system. However, I'm skeptical as this undertaking will now span a term of four administrations and we all know how good the VA is at wasting taxpayers dollars for IT failures. As a matter of fact, that is 0% rate of getting IT projects right.
▶ 0:34:29Uh Miss Develin, um I got to tell you, I know you just got here. We met the other day in our office and as discussed, this is how I want this hearing to go. This is going to be a postapartid truth and reconciliation commission. meaning, you know, we're not going to hold you to account. I know you just got here a month ago.
▶ 0:34:49Um, and I want to make sure that this is an open kimono discussion so that we can clearly identify, articulate, and brainstorm about how to fix these problems. Is that clear? Okay. Uh, with that, I'd like to now yield to my very good friend and ranking member, Mr. Papis, for his opening remarks. Thank you very much, Chairman Van Nordon, for holding today's hearing on the Veterans Readiness and Employment Program, otherwise known as VR&E.
▶ 0:35:16We know VR&E is designed to help disabled veterans gain meaningful employment and independent living after their time in service. However, this committee is rightfully concerned about the overall outcomes and effectiveness of the program based on data about its performance and issues veterans have raised about response and weight times among others. And I hope to learn more today about the ways in which we can improve the program so that service connected disabled veterans are receiving the support they need and have earned and ensure that their transition to civilian life is a success.
▶ 0:35:44One area that I would like to focus on is the case load ratios for counselors which since 2018 VA established should be at 125 veterans per one counselor. Since the passage of the PACT act, however, case loads exceed this ratio nationwide and in some areas the ratio is currently 204 to1.
▶ 0:36:02Additionally, in many regional offices, a veteran waits on average a month or more to meet with a counselor, with Boston experiencing an average wait time of 33 days, Phoenix 68 days, Atlanta 77 days, and San Diego 159 days. This means that veterans are waiting longer, counselors are being strained, and veterans are not receiving the best quality of services, and we need to fix that.
▶ 0:36:26So, while improvements can be made to the program overall, the solution to truly ensuring veterans are accessing and able to make the most of the VR&A program comes down to one critical factor, staffing. For example, VA recently brought down the wait times in the Southern California. In Southern California, brought them down dramatically, and the solution was more staff to lessen workload per counselor, process veteran information faster, and give veterans specialized attention and resources that they require.
▶ 0:36:52I'm also aware that VA is in the process of modernizing its case management system and implementing the use of AI tools such as the electronic virtual assistant to help schedule appointments with counselors. While these initiatives surely will help make casework more efficient, it's highly unlikely that this will be enough to help VA keep up with the expected increase in case loads as VA itself has forecasted.
▶ 0:37:14We also cannot expect VA to improve its performance in the already understaffed program with VA's recent announcement projecting an expected loss of 30,000 employees by the end of this year. We also acknowledge that VA counselors in general have a high turnover rate, but that's mostly because their case loads have become unmanageable. So, I share the chairman's concerns about veterans staying in the VR program for a long period of time. But I don't necessarily agree that instituting time limits is the correct course of legislative action.
▶ 0:37:43VR counselors do need flexibility in determining individual veterans situations and circumstances rather than putting additional administrative burdens on them to prove why a veteran needs more time. Addressing the retention of counselors and getting their case load down to VA's recommended ratio of 125 to1 is a better use of our time. VA data shows that regional offices that are adequately staffed are performing well both in terms of maintaining manageable case load and number of days for veterans to have their initial meeting with a counselor.
▶ 0:38:11Unfortunately, only 28% of regional offices are at or below the targeted case load with the national ratio currently at 175 cases per counselor. So, there's significant room for improvement there. And I hope that this committee agrees that this is a problem that needs to be addressed. The services a veteran receives should not be dependent on where a veteran chooses to live after military life. Nor should it depend on VA's plans to cut staffing that will undermine critical programs like VR& that veterans rely on after having served their country.
▶ 0:38:40So leaving veterans to their own devices upon leaving the service or critically undermining the VRE program effectiveness would be a terrible disservice to veterans and their families and in the end will only hurt veterans trying to secure the help that they deserve. So I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing and I yield back. The ranking member yields back. Thank you, Mr. Pepis. I will now introduce our witness panel. It's you uh Miss Margarita Develin, acting principal deputy under secretary for benefits at the Department of Veterans Affairs.
▶ 0:39:08Will you please stand and raise your right hand? Ma'am, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to provide is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the All right. Please be seated. Thank you. And let the record reflect that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Miss Develin, you're now recognized for five minutes to deliver your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Chairman Benorton, Ranking Member Papis, thank you for this opportunity to testify on the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program.
▶ 0:39:35I've had the privilege of seeing personally the transformational effect that this program can have on veterans lives both when I started as a Voke rehab counselor myself in the field through various leadership positions in the field and at national headquarters in VBA. At every level, I witnessed how important this program can be to their career goals or their independent living During the first Trump administration, I served as the principal deputy under secretary for benefits.
▶ 0:40:02And at that time, we worked diligently to get to the 1:125 ratio. So, it was disheartening to see that that has unraveled. VR's workload has dramatically increased. In recent years, from October 2020 to June 2025, the case load grew by And that sharp increase was largely driven by an increase in the eligible veteran population due to the PAC Act.
▶ 0:40:28Staffing allowances in the past few years hypothetically allowed VR to hire one counselor for every 140 veterans. However, this is in sharp contrast with VR's actual case load ratio, as you mentioned, of 1 to 1 to 75 when factoring in the current case load and the onboard number of counselors. Despite these challenges, VBA has made meaningful progress in the past couple of months. We've worked to accelerate eligibility determinations to make sure veterans are getting the timely support that they deserve. And we've increased oversight over the program.
▶ 0:40:58VBA leadership at all levels are being held accountable for the performance of this program so that veterans receive the care and benefits that they deserve. VBA is addressing the increased workload in several ways. We deployed a help team to reduce pending applications at several stations to help expedite entitlement determinations. We implemented a national workload assignment strategy where VBA assigns workload from offices with the highest case load ratios to stations with lower case load ratios.
▶ 0:41:27This national uh approach is supported by the fact that many veterans prefer the flexibility of a virtual appointment through teleounseling versus coming into a brickandmortar appointment. This helps us balance some of the workload demands across the available capacity. We also provided additional contract counselor support to help some stations with higher workloads. We've seen a huge difference across the nation from the cumulative effects of these workload management strategies.
▶ 0:41:54For example, in one regional office, we reduce the average days pending in applicant status from over 200 days in January to an average of 39 days as of the end of June. And veterans are seeing success through the program. As of the end of June, over 14,000 veterans received achieved positive outcomes through the VR& program so far this year, which is 10% more than this time last year. Employment is tracked as a subset of all positive outcomes. An employment outcome is when a veteran finishes their training and gain suitable employment.
▶ 0:42:23As of the end of June, over 7,000 veterans achieved successful employment outcomes through VR, which is 15% above VR's stated goal for this point in the year. VBA has successfully deployed the readiness and employment system or res to all regional offices in the southeast and northeast districts and we're on track to deploy the continental and pacific districts by the end of Res has already shown measurable results.
▶ 0:42:49Res application automation improved processing time from 7 days down to 3.4 days in the pilot and currently is at 2.3 average days for an eligibility determination. This doesn't only expedite that decision-making, but gets veterans quicker to a counselor for their first appointment. In conclusion, VA is fully committed to making the improvements necessary to strengthen the VR program.
▶ 0:43:14At the heart of all this is one goal, ensuring that veterans get the support that they need when they need it without lengthy wait times. My commitment is simple. I want to restore your trust in the VR program, but more importantly, I want to make sure veterans and transitioning service members understand this program is here for them and that they can trust that the port the program will take care of them. We have a lot more work to do and we are determined to get it right.
▶ 0:43:45Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement and I welcome any questions you uh and the ranking member and any other committee members have for me. Thank you, Miss Deon. The written statement of Miss Devon will be entered into the record. We're going to proceed to question now. Um, everyone's going to stick to the five-minute rule. I now recognize ranking member Papus for 5 minutes for questions. Well, thank you, Miss Develin, for joining us. I appreciate you being here, and I appreciate you also relating your experience as a VO rehab counselor.
▶ 0:44:10Um, and that's all valuable perspective, but I also noticed that the executive director of the program, the one program that we're discussing today, is not at this hearing. Uh, Mr. Pamperin led the program during record setting enrollment during the pact act the development of the res scheduling system. Uh in fact the reason I think we're holding this hearing is because the chairman and Mr. Pamperin had a back and forth line of questioning at a hearing a few weeks ago. Um and so I'm wondering if you can answer the question why Mr. Pampin is not at this hearing today. Yes sir.
▶ 0:44:40Thank you for that question. So Mr. Pamperin is in charge of the VR service program, but as the as I'm currently performing the delegable duties of the under secretary for benefits, I'm also responsible not only for the VR program, but for the office of field operations. VR service controls the policym, the quality assurance, and many other functions in VR. But it's field operations that we're typically talking about that we have concerns with. It's the staffing in the field.
▶ 0:45:08It's the it's the counselors doing the work on the ground. And the VR& program leaders are just one group of leaders that are responsible for implementing the program. We're also talking about VA regional office directors and district directors. Those people don't report to Mr. Pamper and they report to me. Well, I I don't doubt your oversight and your involvement in the program. Um but he is the named executive director of the program. There are four additional seats at that table. um and one of them should have been filled by him.
▶ 0:45:38I'm wondering if we can get into the detail of um some of your testimony um and talk about the extended enrollment uh times that we have seen. The chairman has brought to this committee's attention a few cases in which veterans have been in VNR been in VR for far longer than the policy ever intended. Can you help us understand why there are times that veterans might need to stay in the program longer than just the average Yes, there are many reasons that a veteran might be in a program uh for a long time. Sometimes it's because they're in and out of the program.
▶ 0:46:08So maybe they began their program and life circumstances took over. It could be a worsening of their disability conditions. It could be some other life circumstances. It could be a geographic relocation. Uh it could be an accident. It could be a family emergency. It could be a whole host of reasons that could interrupt that veteran's program. And then they they can return when those those issues are resolved.
▶ 0:46:29Um, you know, I've seen a case just a veteran who was rehabilitated just July 8th and that veteran was in the program for a few years, had to take time off because of disability conditions and then came back years later and was able to finish graduate the program in May, get sorry, get a job in May as a human resources manager and is successfully rehabilitated. You might look at that on the surface and say, well, why was that veteran in the program so long? But they needed to take the time off for those medical conditions to to restore their health. Well, thanks.
▶ 0:46:58And are veterans paid by VA for the entire time period that they're in the program? Veterans receive sub subsistence allowance only for the time that they're actively pursuing training. Okay. And is there an average number of months that benefits are paid out? Veterans are typically entitled to up to 48 months of entitlement for payment of subsistence unless an extension is Okay. And and are there just um the most common reason why a veteran might exceed that 48month uh time frame?
▶ 0:47:27Typically, it's because they have what we call a serious employment handicap, which means they're they have significant barriers to employability above an employment handicap that requires them to have additional months of training that they might need to become employable and compete with other other people for that same occupation. So, when a veteran enrolls in VR, what's the process and how are counselors assigned to that veteran? Counselors are typically assigned based on geography where the veteran applies.
▶ 0:47:55As I indicated earlier, however, because of our capacity issues, we've assigned veteran applicants to counselors that have availability so that they don't have to wait. Uh those counselors would meet with that veteran either virtually or in person depending on the circumstances to determine their entitlement um and review whether they what type of dis um rehabilitation program they might need. So, we we do hear complaints from veterans um sometimes about the difficulty in getting in contact with their counselor.
▶ 0:48:22Um, so if a veteran moves to a a college in a different location, do they keep the same counselor or are they assigned a new It depends on the the changes and the capacity of the VR office. Um, but if a veteran is having a hard time reaching their counselor and they've left a voicemail message and not gotten a return call, I would encourage them to call our main number because we can warm transfer them to the VR office and see if somebody else in that office can make sure that they get taken care of. Okay.
▶ 0:48:49And my time's limited, so maybe we'll come back in a second round, but thank you. I yield back. Uh the gentleman yields back. The chair recognizes Mr. B for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and uh thank you for being here today. Appreciate your testimony. I'm um uh learning a little bit more about this program along with several others that um certainly VA has and uh continue the mission that we owe to our our veterans. I know you mentioned to the ranking member a 48-month eligibility window.
▶ 0:49:18That is the months of eligibility in the program, not the calendar months it would take to necessarily progress through the program. Is that fairly accurate? That's correct. And then an individual could be eligible for an extension of that due to a life circumstance or a geographical change or a worsening of their condition, another additional months for a new training uh for for maybe a new job or or something of that sort.
▶ 0:49:41In certain circumstances, yes, there are criteria for those And a person may somewhat, not to compare this directly to the GI Bill, but maybe they would use 12 months of eligibility, have a break in time where they weren't using it, and then come back and use it again sometime later. Yes. And if they still have remaining months of entitlement, they can do that. Okay.
▶ 0:50:02And um I know that I believe in some of my uh analysis uh before me it said something like there were some veterans in this program for like since the 1990s I think. Is that some of what um is that starting and stopping or is that people getting new benefits that have been awarded to them due to a change in circumstance? Yes, thank you for the question.
▶ 0:50:25So in my oversight we have I've been looking at those cases and I've been asking the regional office directors to look at those cases and what we found is combination of things. Some of the cases of veterans who seem to have been in for many many years they've been in and out of the program to the point of actually having their cases closed where they're no longer an active case in our program and then they come back sometimes years later and they reapply. when we look at their cases, we see the life of their participation even if they left the program for several years and came back.
▶ 0:50:55Okay. So the individual I think from 1991 or 1992 that that we were alerted to would be somebody most likely without speaking to that case specifically but in general would be somebody who may have had some number of benefits 30 years ago and then had time off from that and then maybe had either a worsening of their condition, a geographic relocation or another change of life circumstance that would necessitate them re-entering the program and reopening that up at some point.
▶ 0:51:25more recently, right? Without seeing the case specifically, I can't speak to that case, but yes, it could be any host of but the the window of time would suggest that this person had been in the program since 1990, whenever when in fact they may have had possibly some months of eligibility then and then some months of eligibility today, but the entirety of that would be shown up on a report Yes, that's correct. Okay. Okay. Um, I appreciate that background. And then, uh, could an individual use this?
▶ 0:51:53Is this just for um skill upskilling or could it be for higher education, advanced degree fields, things of that sort as well? Sort of like the GI Bill. So, the way the statute is written is it's for a vocational goal. So, whatever that veteran's career goal, it's the educational level that they need to be able to compete for entry into that occupation.
▶ 0:52:14So if that occupation that's within their interests, aptitudes, and abilities requires a bachelor's degree or a master's degree or in some cases a non-ol degree, some technical training, that would be the level of training that they would be approved for to participate in. And is there mostly I know we have a lot of GI Bill eligibility of differences and things like that. Is there a lot of overlap between a program that would be GI Bill qualified and would be qualified under this program as well?
▶ 0:52:42Recently, actually VR tightened up those guidelines based on an OIG review. And the only types of training programs that a VR counselor can authorize for a veteran must be also approved for the GI Bill. The only exception is if they want to approve a special school that has to come up all the way to the VR service director for review. Okay. So, it would have it's not um it's not the other way around though. The GI Bill doesn't have to be through VR&E. The VR& would have to be a GI Bill approved institution for for qualified. Okay.
▶ 0:53:11Do we pay the full freight for uh for that program if it's GI Bill eligible? If you're VR& eligible. So GI Bill has different rules in place for how much tuition can be paid for. But a VR& participant would get 100% of all tuition, books, fees, and supplies that are necessary for them to complete the program. And the living stipend as well as well as the living stipen which they can elect the chapter 33 rate if they have that eligibility. Okay.
▶ 0:53:37up to 48 months of eligibility which could be academic months not calendar months. Correct. It's academic months. It's the months that they actually receive subsistence allowance. Okay. Thank you. And then my last question in just the brief time I have available um some of the automation that you have and the um replacement of legacy systems. Do you feel that that's going to offload some of your staff workload to kind of open up more bandwidth for them? It's definitely going to help. We're already showing that it's limited. The gentleman's time is expired. The gentleman's time has expired.
▶ 0:54:07The chair now recognizes Mr. McGarvey for five minutes. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Miss Devlin for being with us today. I'd like to take a moment to talk about a piece of bipartisan legislation I'm working on and and proud to be co-leading out of this committee, the focused assistance and skills training for veterans, employment, and transition success. We call it fast vets for short. It's one of the several efforts coming out of this committee aimed at making the VR&E program work better for the people it's meant to serve, our veterans.
▶ 0:54:36The Fast Vex Act is not about overhauling VR&E. It's about restoring integrity and ensuring counselors aren't given unnecessary workloads. This bill puts in place common sense guard rails. They respect veterans time, counselor's capacity, and taxpayer investment. Because a well-crafted plan is more than a piece of paper. It's a promise.
▶ 0:54:58So, Miss Develin, let's say that Jane Yokum from VFW Post 8639 in Louisville, Kentucky is approved for a vocational rehabilit rehabilitation plan, but later wants to change it. Something happens. What exactly are the counselors looking at when deciding whether to approve that That's a really great question. So, that's considered a redevelopment of a plan. Um, and the counselors do have the authority to review the plan with the veteran. In fact, they must review the plan with the veteran at least once a year to make sure the veteran is on track.
▶ 0:55:29Um, a veteran who wishes to change their program simply because they wish to um must undergo a review by the counselor to determine that they're not going to be wasting basically months of entitlement um on training that would no longer be viable. What usually happens is there's a change in circumstances in that veteran's life. It could be disability related, it could be geography related, occupations are different in different, you know, parts of the country.
▶ 0:55:53Um, and in those cases, the VR counselor would work with the veteran to make sure that they can leverage the months of entitlement they've used um, while redeveloping their plan to the new vocational goal, right? Because things happen, life happens. Um, but are those criteria consistent across the regional offices or is my example, I use Jane Yokum from Louisville, Kentucky. Is that going to experience going to depend on where the veteran lives? It really depends on that veteran circumstances.
▶ 0:56:19This is a a program for veterans who are all individuals with their own unique circumstances and the career goals that they're interested are unique as well. So it I would say it's tailored to the individual. So So let's say that fast vets is enacted and plans are only changed if there's a real need like when the plan isn't workable or or no longer fits their situation like you were just describing. What new protocols would the VA need in place within the first year?
▶ 0:56:50That's a great question. If this was enacted into law, we would need to put procedures in place that would have the counselor documenting why there was a circumstance that required this change versus it being uh just a request by the veteran, which is, I believe, what you're aiming to achieve with this bill, if I understood you correctly. Yeah. Well, it is. And and also, I think, you know, we're worried about this actually going into effect, right? Because again, this can't be a piece of paper. We're trying to make a program workable for our vets.
▶ 0:57:18this is a bridge to their independence that we want to have happen. Um so at least if if this gets going, can you commit to issuing updated guidance for counselors and sharing that data with this committee on the redevelopment rates and rationale? Absolutely. Yes. Perfect. And in your written testimony, you noted that the VA is currently short 387 vocational rehabilitation counselors. That's necessary to meet the VA's 1 to 125 target counselor to veteran ratio.
▶ 0:57:47uh given that only vocational rehabilitation counselors are authorized to make redevelopment decisions for veterans rehabilitation plans and not other employees like vocational rehabilitation specialists. What steps is VA taking to prevent burnout and to ensure these important decisions aren't being rushed or missed? Thank you for the question.
▶ 0:58:07That's one of the reasons we implemented the national strategy of case load assignment so that we can make sure we're not burning out the counselors in the in the jurisdictions where we have increased veteran workload that that they can't manage. Um I will tell you that the president's budget for fiscal year 2026 does allow for an additional 403 counselors. Thank you. Because like I said, this is about keeping promises, right? This is about making sure that our veterans have the resources they need to get back into the workforce to build that bridge to independence.
▶ 0:58:36And if we want VR& to be a bridge to that independence, we need clarity. We need consistency. We need accountability. I know this fast vets bill lays the foundation uh at least a stone in the foundation for that. So, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. The gentleman yields back the remainder of his time. The chair now recognizes my friend from the great city of Arizona, Mr. Cisco. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:59:01chairman and uh thank you also uh Miss Develin for being here today and thank you for your testimony and thank you for the time with us um for coming over and testifying. Uh I've been very interested in learning more about the um V& program as you've been talking about its success and how we can best improve it to ensure veterans with disabilities or barriers to employment are properly trained and also educated in that process.
▶ 0:59:27I was uh proud to see you mention my bill HR 3579, the Veterans Readiness and Employment Program Integrity Act in your testimony and that there's a benefit in having success metrics with uh success metrics such as participants, the employment status and the annual wages tracked. I think any kind of metric in every area in government is important, but definitely here to make sure that our veterans are being served properly.
▶ 0:59:54And for the average weight times to see a counselor be published online, I think that transparency is also very important and it points to something that we can improve and and do a better job at. So, a quick question here. One key issue that I often hear about from my constituents are the long wait times that uh associated with VA services overall. At the Phoenix VA in my home state of Arizona, the average wait time VR& is around 100 114 days.
▶ 1:00:24114 days which uh to meet with a vocational rehab counselor VRC obviously um which well exceeds the VA's goal of the 60-day maximum that that we've talked about. So, what do you believe accounts for this?
▶ 1:00:38And what is the VA's plan of action to reduce these weight times specifically in Arizona where the weight times in the Phoenix VA is different than the one in the Tucson, the Southern Arizona VA, which they happen to be on on different uh sides of the of the weight time spectrum here? Uh what are your thoughts on that? Thank you for the question. So, um I will tell you though, we've we've improved the weight times in Arizona. It's down to just a little over 41 days now. in the Phoenix VA specifically. Arizona as a whole.
▶ 1:01:08Arizona as a whole. Yes. Um what we're doing to improve that is we're using a national strategy for reassigning cases. We have some stations where the counselors are at either 1 to125 ratio or less than that. And so we have greater capacity there. So we're using virtual counseling capability where the ver veteran has a virtual counseling appointment with a counselor. Doesn't have to be a counselor in Arizona. It can be a counselor in any one of our stations that has capacity. The goal being to get them their entitlement decision quickly so they don't have to wait to get into a rehabilitation program.
▶ 1:01:38Do they take this from home or Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Well, that's good. Thank you for informing me of that. Um, you know, I uh the the the experiences that I hear about from our veterans at home between one of the VA, the the Tucson one or the Phoenix one sometimes is very different. So, uh I'm interested in looking more into the the 41day average. I'm assuming that it's between both VAS.
▶ 1:02:04Um, which I'm assuming that that the the weight times in the Tucson VA help the average out from what I'm hearing from Phoenix. But the the weight times in specifically in the Phoenix one continue to be high from what I'm from from the information that I have. So, I want to make sure that we tackle that. Um, I I think I may have time for one more question. the uh as I mentioned previously, I believe that it's our role to ensure individuals participating in this program are getting a good return on the investment.
▶ 1:02:31Some of the recent statistics show that uh what appears to be a high number of veterans reenrolling in the program about 45% uh the from the information that I have. What do you believe is the cost of this high reenrollment rate? And um what does that say about the success metric of the program and its ability to prepare and connect disabled veterans uh to meaningful careers? Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:02:55The statute does allow for veterans who were previously rehabilitated to obviously reapply and to be considered for the program again. If their disabilities worsened or that for some other reason they can no longer perform the occupation, they may be found entitled to another program of services. It's not a continuation of their previous program. It is a new program because that employment that they were suitably employed in is no longer going to work for them.
▶ 1:03:19So, it's considered a reenrollment, but it's it's nature a new experience, a new enrollment, a new result, I'm assuming that they're waiting for. It does require an Yes, it requires a new rehabilitation plan with a new goal. Okay. Excellent. Well, that's all that I've got one more, but we can do that later. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Yield back. Gentlemen yields back. Um, Miss Develin, I I just want to What happened?
▶ 1:03:47Like, what happened over the last, you know, insert months where this seemed to kind of spiral out of control. Can you, you know, give me the reader digest on that one? Um well the main thing is the the ballooning of the workload because of the PACT act making more veterans eligible to apply and and those veterans are predominantly in certain states have a higher veteran you know population so those stations got impacted more I wasn't here were you here for the pack um so was that thought of I mean was this was this
▶ 1:04:17predicted in the pack by the way we're going to have more guys and gals and therefore we're going to have to have more counselors for VR Okay. So then we're just failing somewhere along the lines. Um I want to talk to you for a second. You said you need 387 additional counselors on top of what's in the president's budget. Yes, sir. That would be to get us to the 1 to125 ratio. Okay. So you're saying you need roughly 800 counselors. Is that right?
▶ 1:04:46We currently have 1,56 performing this work. So, you need you need 1400 or 1500 total. Okay. how many vets have been in this program for longer than 48 months? I don't have that number off the top of my head, sir. Right here. So, it's big. So, this is I mean I can Chris can't read this, by the way. I can I mean, it's really small.
▶ 1:05:15Um, sorry I had to take my glasses off to read it. But we got some people here that have been receiving these uh benefits for like 82 months in a row. 461,000 bucks. We got $895,000. I mean, this goes on and on and on and on and on. And I'm just wondering, you know, has anyone been held accountable to your knowledge? And I know you just got there for this.
▶ 1:05:43I mean, imagine how much we how much medical benefits we could give to folks or how many more of these people we could hire if we weren't spending $900,000 for an individual to get 72 months of training doing I don't know what. So, to your knowledge, has anyone been held accountable for this? We've increased oversight over the last couple of months in looking into those cases to make sure that the right things are being done. Either the veteran needs to be re-engaged and and finish their program. Ma'am, I understand.
▶ 1:06:12I'm talking about at the Veterans Affairs Administration. To your knowledge, has anyone been held accountable for this absolute buffoonery? We have to look at the individual cases. It's not necessarily incorrect for that veteran to be in the program that long.
▶ 1:06:26Miss Delin, I I Where do you go to college where you spend $900,000 for a One of those cases that I looked at in my oversight capacity was actually an independent living case where the veteran needed adaptation to their home to be able to navigate their home This is what we talked about previously and we're talking about splitting pools of money. But is that the case with this We don't know. It's interrupted.
▶ 1:06:52So, we need to we need to really get into this because this committee is also responsible for adaptive housing. So, we we need to have very clear funding lines. Um, so there's another thing. How do you establish the BAH rate for a student? What is it based on? The BAH rate is established um in the chapter 33 guidelines and VR simply uses those tables.
▶ 1:07:19Okay, so if a person's home of records in Michigan and they fly to San Diego to take a single class, they get San Diego PDM. They would get the rate. They Yes, sir. They would get the rate based on the facility they are attending in Okay. See, this is an issue because that's $4,000 and BH in, you know, having been in the military for a long time is based on where you live or your duty station.
▶ 1:07:49So, this is something that Chris and I have to work on because that's just that's fraudulent in my opinion. you know, you're living in a place where the cost of living is so small and then you fly in for a single class to do something and you're you're making three times the BAH. So that's something we need to look at from an oversight perspective because that's legislative. That is legislative. That's correct, And that is why we need to do our job.
▶ 1:08:17I'm telling you, um it it is frustrating a little bit. What do you think? Like right now you have a magic wand. What do you do to fix this program? We got 19 seconds. I don't have a magic wand, but what we are doing is increasing internal controls to make sure that we can more closely monitor these things and hold our leaders accountable for monitoring the program. Okay. Well, my time has expired and Mr. Papis, do you have more questions? Um, yeah. We will do a second round of questioning. Mr.
▶ 1:08:47Papis, you're now recognized for five minutes. Well, thanks very much. I know that um my colleague, our friend Mike Levven uh used to sit in this seat and was very much focused on what was happening in San Diego where uh the numbers were far greater in terms of um weight times than what I would see in my region of the country. The regional office for VR& in my region in Boston, the weight times 33 days. Um but I understand that um progress has been made at San Diego. I know that was in your testimony.
▶ 1:09:13Can you drill down a little bit um on that in terms of um what's what tools have proven successful there? I know you talked about the virtual counseling capabilities and redistributing work. Um, and if you could also talk about whether um that has met with veteran acceptance uh along the way and and that's a path that veterans are okay with choosing, it would be great to hear Yes. With San Diego specifically, we deployed a help team of 11 people. These are people who were recently put into quality assurance positions.
▶ 1:09:42So, they are some of our best counselors and they dug in and helped San Diego first. And then we also did the the reassignment of work for the virtual counseling. Um we've not heard any complaints. Veterans seem to really appreciate the availability of virtual counseling and truthfully it's it's seamless to them where their counselor sits as long as they get the counseling appointment that they need um to get entitlement and get a rehabilitation plan developed. Okay.
▶ 1:10:07So it appears that progress was made um in part by making sure that ratios were in a much more acceptable place than they previously had been in San Diego. Is that right? Yes. Ratios were adjusted based on moving the workload to to the people that we have on board. Okay. But it appears that you can't fully get there nationally and address those ratios without the additional people that you indicated you need for the program. That's correct. Okay.
▶ 1:10:34And as enrollments increased since the passage of of Pact, um obviously staffing became a challenge and didn't keep pace. And I'm wondering if you can reflect a little bit more on why that was the case. the VR division and the field offices did do some hiring over the last few years, but they also had some attrition and I will say that the field of rehabilitation counseling as a whole um is is not a growing occupation.
▶ 1:10:59So that's why the new position of Voke Rehab specialist was created so that different um bachelor's degrees for example in other human services occupations could be considered. Um but the previous administration had to make decisions and they made decisions about hiring based on disability claims processing.
▶ 1:11:18So the priority was given to hiring of disability claims process versus uh processors versus voke rehab And in terms of the work that counselors do, obviously you can look at it in terms of numbers and having case loads in the right place that might provide them with uh a better working environment and an ability to help veterans in a more timely fashion. Um, but are there other ways you're thinking about retention and holding on to those qualified counselors that you have and working to avoid burnout?
▶ 1:11:46Yes, I am very concerned about retention uh with our counselors. We I've recently convened a group of leaders from the field, regional office directors, assistant directors, and VR officers to meet with me to give me recommendations on how we can make improvements in the field. Uh, VR service has done some great work. Um, but really the field is where the rubber meets the road and those are the people that I need to hear from directly. So, we've started meeting and discussing what to do to improve the program as a whole and also to improve things like retention and recruitment.
▶ 1:12:17Okay, that's it for me. I'll yield back. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Uh, Ranking Member Pepis, um, can you explain to me the difference between a veterans rehabilitation specialist and a veterans rehabilitation Yes, sir. a veteran, a vocational rehabilitation counselor um has a master's degree in rehabilitation counseling. Um and so it's a specific industry and then a vocational and they can make decisions like entitlement decisions and they can do the full gamut of services.
▶ 1:12:47So they can get a veteran all the way from the very beginning of application all the way through declaration of rehabilitation. A vocational rehab specialist can be at a bachelor's level, similar types of educational credentials, but at the bachelor's level. Um, and they c they can't make entitlement decisions, but they can help the veteran once the rehabilitation plan has been developed by a vocab counselor. They can help the veteran throughout the lifetime of their case all the way through declarations of rehabilitation or discontinuence if the veteran stops participating.
▶ 1:13:17And so, what's the ratio between a specialist and a counselor? Like, how many specialists do you have specialists do you have compared to counselors? Um, the Well, you know, I have the combined number. It's,56 of the two combined. I'm sorry I don't have the ratio between the two. In your professional opinion, do you think you need a master's degree to pull this off?
▶ 1:13:38Sir, I think that what the master's degree gives us um I have a master's degree in rehabilitation counseling and the training that you get in those master's degrees is how to really take a look at the disability conditions um and the occupational areas and all of the supports that a veteran might need to achieve rehabilitation and overcome those barriers.
▶ 1:13:56Other occupations such as social work for example um might be more comprehensive in the clinical sense but less focused on the occupational Well, Miss Devin, I would posit that if you have a 45% recidivism rate, that's the wrong term because they're not going to jail. But if 45% of our veterans are returning, I would say that maybe we're not getting the money or the bang for the buck with a master's degree. So, if someone is if if they're missing the mark 45% of the time.
▶ 1:14:21So, what we're trying to do, if you need an additional 400 folks, you know, that's going to be really hard to produce these people. So, what I need from you is I need the ratio and I'd like to see the the specific differences and I and if you don't have in front of you right now, just give it to me. I want to see the specific differences in authorities because having done this myself and my counselor, her first name was Ann, I won't say her last name, but was awesome. You know, I don't know if she had a master's degree or a bachelor's degree. She was great.
▶ 1:14:49and um and then seeing people along the way. I just think that what we're doing is we're requiring an educational uh we're setting a standard for an education that's actually limiting our ability to hire people. And I don't see an appreciable difference between the two right now. And I don't want this to be a program that is hampered by an artificial requirement.
▶ 1:15:15and the Secretary of Defense and some other folks have removed these um these requirements for GS levels. You know, you have to have a bachelor's to be this and a master. Okay, there that's been removed through a lot of these different career fields. I think that's something we need to look at here just because of these things.
▶ 1:15:35I mean we got real we have empiric knowledge you know experience-based knowledge now that this is this is something that uh needs to be looked at because you know to my ranking member friend's point you know we want to make sure that we can get everybody what they need good okay well I want to thank you for coming today we do have a lot of work ahead of us I want this to be a an open line of
▶ 1:16:05communication and again I accept full responsibility for my lack of oversight being the chairman of the subcommittee in the last Congress. That is on me and uh I'm not running away from that. I know that you have personally assured me and I'm going to take you at your word that you will increase your oversight and I'd like to be able to exchange ideas on this. Again, this is a fantastic program.
▶ 1:16:27Um, but it is rife for abuse and it is too easy to defraud this program and we want to make sure that we hyperfocus these dollars because this I mean how much is it? 72,000 bucks a year. I mean for some we could we could essentially fund everybody you need if we got rid of the what is clearly fraud. I mean, just you can say whatever you want, but that's it's not you don't spend $900,000 and not have a bachelor's degree.
▶ 1:16:58It's just not it. Uh, and then we're also going to work on splitting off the adaptive home things. Those are super important, too. I mean, that veteran loses their legs or arms, whatever, that's we need to do that. And I I don't I don't care how much it costs. That's a debt that we owe to the veterans. But I just want to be able to clean up our funding lines so we know exactly what we're spending on so we can maximize these dollars to give every veteran that earn these benefits exactly what they need to thrive.
▶ 1:17:26And I'd like to yield to my ranking member if you have any closing comments, sir. No, thanks. I think we we generally agree on the challenges here and I'm, you know, grateful to hear some of the ways that you've made some progress um at realizing better numbers in certain locations around the country, including San Diego. And I think they're important lessons to be learned.
▶ 1:17:46Um, so in addition to rebalancing case loads and uh having better internal controls and providing the best training possible, it's clear this is an issue where we need more people. We need more counselors and support staff in order to get to those ratios that are acceptable so that veterans aren't waiting far too long and are getting the help that they deserve. So, um, I know I want to work uh with you on that uh to help get you the support that you need and deserve there.
▶ 1:18:10Um, and I'm grateful for your reflections and want to continue to make sure we're engaging the veteran community in terms of uh their own um satisfaction and trust with respect to this program which is a real gamecher. As you said, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that this support is there. Uh, we've got a ways to go to make it better. Certainly, we have to pay attention to those cases where uh fraud is possible or where it may be happening. Um, but as you say, there are complex cases out there.
▶ 1:18:36Um, and I think we need to make sure that we're focused on the big challenge here, which is um, ensuring that the increased number of veterans that are moving through this program get the help they need. You can't get there without people and having the right staff. And so, I remain committed to providing that as best I can. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. And Miss Deo, again, thank you so much for coming today. I appreciate it. It's kind of lonely sitting out there by yourself, but you did a bang up job.
▶ 1:18:59Um, I ask unanimous consent that all members may have five legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include extraneous materials without objection. So ordered. This hearing is now And I'd like to see all the sailors up here, please. I'm talking to you.