▶ 0:02:55>> the committee on house administration will come to order. The title of today's hearing is clean voter rolls secure elections, renewing voter list maintenance standards. I note that a quorum is present. Without objection, the chair made it clear recess at any time. Also, without objection, the hearing record will remain open for five legislative days, so members may submit any materials they wish to be included therein. Uh.
▶ 0:03:16Thank you, ranking member morelli, members of the committee and our witnesses for appearing at today's hearing today, the committee on house administration continues our oversight of federal elections. Voter list maintenance is crucial to election integrity. This maintenance adds new voters to rolls and also removes ineligible voters, such as deceased, relocated or duplicate registrants.
▶ 0:03:42Inaccurate voter rolls can open the door to election fraud and can hinder public confidence in our elections and the current world of mail in voting. Live ballots can be sent based on inaccurate or out of date information. That's a risk. How do you mitigate that risk?
▶ 0:03:57For example, california has universal vote by mail, meaning they send every single registered voter in a state a ballot, regardless of whether or not it was requested, which shows the significance of making sure the voter rolls are accurate. And it means that a live ballot can be sent to a resident's former address. If the voter rolls were not properly updated, that would be a live ballot. It'd be illegal to for someone to vote that besides the eligible voter.
▶ 0:04:26But it'd be difficult to determine that after that ballot would be illegally cast. So the responsibility of maintaining voter lists is largely fulfilled by states in addition to state specific regulations, federal laws such as the national voter registration act or the nvra, includes voter list maintenance requirements. As is currently written, the nvra arguably has a low standard for compliance, a standard we're going to discuss today.
▶ 0:04:54So because of this, if states choose, they can largely avoid properly maintaining their voter rolls. Litigation has shown that judges consider minimal maintenance compliance with federal law. Lawsuits have alleged that states are failing to timely and effectively maintain their voter rolls. This year, the department of justice filed a statement of interest asserting a federal government's interest in effective enforcement of the nvra against illinois.
▶ 0:05:22The doj there alleged that 34 counties in the state failed to disclose any data that would show illinois conducted that the state of illinois failed to disclose any data that would show illinois conducts voter list maintenance. Representative mary miller, I have a hunch we'll have questions about that. The lack of transparency in voter list maintenance undermines both legal compliance and voter confidence. In addition to legal compliance.
▶ 0:05:51We all we will discuss today where states are obtaining data for proper voter list maintenance. States need access to accurate and timely data to effectively maintain their voter lists. Accurate data can be exchanged between states and the federal governments. Some states, such as virginia, have entered into mous with neighboring states to exchange voter data. This type of information allows states to determine whether a voter is registered in another states, and if they're removed upon registering in their new state.
▶ 0:06:21Also, as chairman of the committee on house administration, I've worked to ensure that only us citizens are voting in us elections. It's critical that states are utilizing federal citizenship verification resources that are available to them. The us citizenship and immigration services recently announced enhancements to their citizenship verification system. The updated system allows states and local governments to access federal databases to verify voters citizenship.
▶ 0:06:48In conclusion, list maintenance requires efficient, effective, and accurate access to data, as well as thorough and routine updates. Proper voter list maintenance protects the security of our elections, and I want to thank our witnesses for being here today, and I look forward to our discussion. I'll now recognize the ranking member, Mr. morelli, for five minutes for the purpose of giving his opening statement. >> good morning.
▶ 0:07:15I thank you, chairman steele, and thank you, certainly to our witnesses for being here this morning. For over 200 years, our republic has marched towards a fuller, freer system of governance, expanding access to the ballot for more and more americans. But as we've seen time and time again in the topic of today's hearing, clearly indicates house republicans seem to want to retreat from that important promise.
▶ 0:07:43Uh, states controlled by republicans have recently engaged in systematic illegal voter purges. A republican candidate in north carolina sought to disenfranchize tens of thousands of voters because he didn't like the outcome of the election.
▶ 0:07:59And this hearing comes on the heels of last week's news that the department of justice under donald trump, is seeking voter registration lists of several states representing data on millions of americans ahead of the 2026 midterms. The trump administration's dangerous false rhetoric, which continues going back to the 2020 election and continues about noncitizen voting, is eroding our democracy and threatens the voting rights of all americans.
▶ 0:08:27Clear evidence shows that voter registration efforts in republican led states have stripped thousands of americans of the right to vote without due process. Now, don't get me wrong, voter list maintenance, when conducted properly and legally, ensures that our elections are secure and safe. But systematic voter purges, often illegally conducted in the run up to federal elections, posed a real threat to voters.
▶ 0:08:53Voter purges represent a coordinated effort by my friends on the other side of the aisle to manipulate elections to, in effect, make american elections less american. For years, republican officials across the country have purged hundreds of thousands of voters, including eligible U.S. citizens.
▶ 0:09:10In texas, for example, republican officials have repeatedly tried to do this, but each time local officials discovered that texas purges had incorrectly targeted united states citizens and republican cheating in texas doesn't stop there.
▶ 0:09:25Recently, donald trump and his republican allies hatched a plan to gerrymander texas's congressional map, letting republican representatives choose their voters rather than letting texans choose their representatives. This is happening across the country. In north carolina, the state election board recently caved in to trump administration demands and pressure to illegally purge at least 200,000 voters.
▶ 0:09:49The weaponized department of justice resurrected debunked conspiracy theories from the state's recent supreme court election to disenfranchize north carolina voters. This is no accident. The broken trump justice department has made voter disenfranchisement a priority, firing all but three lawyers in the voting section.
▶ 0:10:10And I think that leads us to ask if republicans are willing to kick american citizens off the rolls, if they're willing to manipulate congressional maps, if they're willing to gut the department of justice, what other illegal acts will president trump and his allies take to enhance their own power or to enrich themselves? Uh, we need to call out these actions for what they are corruption, pure and simple.
▶ 0:10:33I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the careful legal process for maintaining accurate voter rolls, and supporting the important work of local election officials, but the republican majority is more interested in promoting illegal and sloppy efforts to manipulate elections and deceive the american public.
▶ 0:10:54Today, we will hear from mary kay hayling, a retired teacher and fitness instructor from north carolina, after voting in the 2024 general election, miss hayling learned that her name was on a list of voters to be purged in response to a lawsuit by a losing republican candidate for the state supreme court. Despite providing all necessary documentation despite being an american citizen. North carolina republicans tried to strip miss hailing of her right to vote. This is not a simple mistake. It was not a clerical error.
▶ 0:11:23It was part of a concerted effort to consolidate partizan power, because republicans know that if every american citizen can vote in 2026, they will lose. The american people are furious. They're furious that the big ugly bill by president trump will steal health coverage from 17 million american citizens.
▶ 0:11:45They're furious at republican deception about the epstein files, all to protect the president, who either lied to the american people for years about the existence of the client list, or is lying to them. Now they're furious with rampant partizan gerrymandering meant to decide the outcome of elections before a single vote is cast. So the republican majority, attorney general, pam bondi, and the white house are trying to silence the american people. If we follow their lead, thousands of people like miss hayling will lose their right to vote.
▶ 0:12:14If president trump and republicans have their way, we will retreat from our country's storied history of voting rights expansion we will no longer have, in the words of president lincoln, a government of the people, by the people and for the people. We cannot sit idly by and let that happen. With that, I will yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. Without objection, all other members opening statements will be made part of the hearing record if they're submitted to the committee clerk by 5:00 pm today. Today we have a one witness panel.
▶ 0:12:43Uh, first we have christian adams, who's president and general counsel of the public interest legal foundation. Uh, next we have justin remer, who is president and ceo of restoring integrity and trust in elections and partner at first street law. Uh, and finally, we have mary kay hailing a voter in the state of north carolina. Uh, we appreciate all of you being here with us today, and we look forward to your testimony. I'll now recognize you, Mr. adams, for five minutes for the purpose of giving your opening statement. >> thank you.
▶ 0:13:12Chairman steele, ranking member morelli, members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to testify. Here's a question congress might ponder. What does section eight of the national voter registration act mean when it requires that states must, quote, conduct a general program that makes a reasonable effort to remove the names of ineligible voters from the official list of eligible voters, unquote, according to federal courts. Unfortunately, now it means next to nothing. That isn't what congress intended in 1993.
▶ 0:13:41Courts have, unfortunately interpreted the language passed by this congress to find the mere existence of a list. Maintenance program is what matters, not the program's effectiveness. Panels of the sixth circuit and the 11th circuit court of appeals reached these conclusions. In florida, broward county allowed non-citizens to vote and deferred the removal of ineligible registrants for years out of sheer incompetence.
▶ 0:14:08The list maintenance requirements in the vra are gutted, particularly now in the sixth and 11th. It is ironic, since the nvra owes its very existence to these same list maintenance obligations. Senator bob dole's compromise lists maintenance and amendment. In 1993 broke a filibuster that would have otherwise doomed the bill, just as previous versions of nvra died by filibuster.
▶ 0:14:39Before 1993, the republicans made a deal to let the nvra through in exchange for meaningful list maintenance standards, but the 11th circuit generally held that if an election official makes an effort to clean voter rolls, no matter how shoddy, it's acceptable, and the best practices are not required under the nvra, the proof is decidedly not in the nvra.
▶ 0:15:04Putting the sixth circuit has followed the 11th circuit. Their michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson, had over 25,000 dead registrants on the active rolls. A significant number of them have been registered decades after death. Decades in litigation.
▶ 0:15:23However, the sixth circuit interpreted the language that congress passed, requiring a reasonable effort to mean this, quote, a program that makes a rational and sensible attempt to remove dead registrants. A state need not, however, go to extravagant or excessive lengths in creating and maintaining such a program. Unquote. Notice the court never says successful or effective results don't matter. The proof is not in the pudding. I do not believe this is what congress intended.
▶ 0:15:52I do not believe republicans would have dropped their filibuster with this limp maintenance standard, a mere rational attempt. Michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson gets an a for effort from the court, but she deserved an f for outcome. Tens of thousands of dead registrants on active rolls. Never mind if someone's registered multiple times. Never mind if a registration record is missing the date of birth. None of this matters under these court rulings.
▶ 0:16:21Only whether a state makes a rational effort. Results don't matter. This standard is not what the republicans dropped the filibuster for in 1993. Congress can fix this. Many of the problems with american voter rolls occurred at the point of registration, often by third party groups. The voter may never know the record is botched because they can still vote. But then something changes.
▶ 0:16:43They move, they change their name, they get married, and the process creates a duplicate registration because the original mistake impairs a record match, it can even be triplicate. I've seen duplications reach six active registrations for a single voter in allegheny county, pennsylvania were sean slade. You can see all of his simultaneous registrations in the appendix to my written testimony. Some news in maine.
▶ 0:17:12We just found roughly 18,000 apparently deceased registrants, nearly 1500 examples of intra state duplicates, another 900 examples of interstate duplicates. The public interest legal foundation issued a detailed finding on this report on this data this month. Ironically, maine passed a statute to find the public interest legal foundation.
▶ 0:17:34If we spoke about what we found on the voter rolls, including to you in congress, the first circuit struck down these speech penalties in a case that we brought under the nvra ranking member, morelli. Even in new york, you find people that I describe in my written testimony registered multiple times, including one record we have right here. That means you're mailing extra campaign literature. You're wasting money on your campaign because of the state of the voter rolls.
▶ 0:18:03Finally, one way to improve list maintenance is for states to use commercial credit data to clean voter rolls. And I'm happy to answer your questions. Thank you. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. reimer for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman and committee members. This is a critically important topic and one that I've worked on extensively as a virginia election official and as a lawyer for groups like restoring integrity and trust in elections, who are dedicated to ensuring robust list maintenance practices.
▶ 0:18:32I will share three concerns one how the nvra inhibits list maintenance, two failures I've seen at the state level, and finally, the erosion of a consensus on the need for clean voter rolls. The under the nvra undermines its stated purpose of protecting election integrity and maintaining accurate and current voter rolls. It imposes too low a floor by setting a lacks reasonable effort.
▶ 0:18:58Standard states must meet to remove an eligible voters and a ceiling on removals that is unduly restrictive. First, the floor. The nvra merely requires states to use postal service. National change of address or ncoa data to identify and cancel nonresidents using ncoa data is necessary, but insufficient because it does not include the millions of americans. Some of the some of the millions of americans who move each year.
▶ 0:19:27The nvra does not require identifying nonresidents by using undeliverable election mail, such as registration cards and mail ballots, or for states to exchange voter registration data with one another. The nvra also sets a restrictive ceiling on list maintenance by limiting cancellation of nonresidents to two methods.
▶ 0:19:47When a voter requests removal or after officials initiate a cumbersome confirmation mailing process and then wait through two federal general elections, relatively few voters request cancellation. Nearly 70% of confirmation notices mailed to nonresident voters go unreturned, which means officials cancel most to the mail confirmation process. We should encourage more direct voter cancellations.
▶ 0:20:13For example, courts have blocked states from treating a new registration as a request to cancel a previous out-of-state registration, but congress could fix that. Congress could also require registration forms to require a voter to list their prior registration address, and a clear acknowledgment that the form will serve as a request to cancel the previous registration. The nvra could also require states to transmit this information to officials in the voter's previous jurisdiction.
▶ 0:20:43These reforms could significantly lower duplicate intrastate voter registrations, the time it takes to cancel them, and save states money by decreasing the number of confirmation mailings. The nra's 90 day list maintenance blackout period before any federal election is also a problem in presidential years, virginia and other states hold three separate federal elections, so the blackout freezes list maintenance for up to 270 days, especially when it comes to removing non
▶ 0:21:14Nonresidents. Courts have also said that states cannot cancel the registration of non-citizens during the blackout period. Elections have changed significantly since the passage of the nvra, particularly with same day voter registration and provisional balloting questioning the need for the blackout period. Congress should consider shortening or removing it, limiting it to general elections only, and exempting non-citizen removals.
▶ 0:21:40I'll also share a few thoughts from my time at the virginia state board of elections. First, processes on paper often don't match policy and practice. One memorable example comparing virginia's voter registration list with the entire social security death file revealed 10,000 deceased registered voters, something that should have been caught by our predecessors had they been following agency procedures. These types of procedures, these types of problems are too common.
▶ 0:22:10A recent audit in maryland revealed the state health department's refusal to provide complete death records to state election officials, citing an unexplained agency policy. Neither side accepted blame. This mirrors my experience with agencies like the dmv who are uninterested in who are interested in doing little more than the minimum to assist stateless maintenance efforts.
▶ 0:22:31Bureaucratic siloing and finger pointing are all too common, and it's easy for officials with competing priorities to run list maintenance procedures on autopilot without realizing they're broken. These are just a few examples. Even the even though the nvra requires it states resist publicly disclosing list maintenance records, making it harder to uncover more problems. But we know they exist because counties across the country have implausibly high voter registration rates.
▶ 0:22:59Finally, it should be clear that only eligible voters belong on the voter rolls, but that consensus may be fading. Take a montana law that wright helped defend that prohibits registered voters from keeping an out-of-state registration. The law was imperfect, but its goal of preventing duplicate registrations was sound. Yet progressive groups sued, arguing that there are myriad of reasons for keeping multiple registrations, such as convenience and flexibility. When we can't agree on who should be voting and that only residents should be voting.
▶ 0:23:29It really calls into question whether we can find bipartisan consensus on this maintenance. Gentleman yields back. Miss hilling is recognized for five minutes. >> good morning. Thank you, Mr. chairman and Mr. ranking member and the rest of the committee for giving me the opportunity to testify today. My name is mary kay hailing.
▶ 0:23:55I'm a resident of raleigh, north carolina, a former teacher, a former nash rocky mount school board member in north carolina, a retired fitness instructor, a us citizen, and an unaffiliated registered voter in wake county. I moved back to north carolina in late january of 2016 and promptly registered to vote on february 19th, using my name and the last four digits of my social security number.
▶ 0:24:23I have voted regularly since then. In 2024, I voted in person in both the primary and general elections. My name was on the voter registration list. I showed my valid id, my north carolina driver's license with my photo and my current address.
▶ 0:24:44Never once did I doubt that my vote was valid after the 2024 election, I received a postcard in the mail stating that I could be on an incomplete voter registration list. I scanned the qr code and spent well over an hour trying to find my name. The site was difficult to navigate and I had no luck.
▶ 0:25:07I chalked it up to a mistake since my husband and I registered at the same time and he didn't receive one weeks later on a more searchable site. To my surprise, my name popped up. Needless to say, I was shocked and upset since I had voted regularly since 2016 with no issues by providing my valid id and having it checked against the registration list. Uh, after that happened, I went to the board of elections to find out the problem.
▶ 0:25:36And evidently there was a problem with my name in the four digits of my social security number. Even though I had filled out the form correctly, it was possibly a clerical error. I was told no one had ever notified me that there was an issue with my registration. While there. I changed my registration, this time using my north carolina driver's license. I double and triple checked it. This all took work and persistence.
▶ 0:26:05It was frustrating and time consuming. Hopefully it is correct this time, but can I be sure? I thought it was the first time. How does anyone know their vote is safe? Once the griffin case was settled, my vote was counted. Shew, this ordeal was over or so I thought. I was then made aware of the us versus north carolina board of elections case. Here we go again.
▶ 0:26:33Only this time over 200,000 registered voters in north carolina are having their registrations challenged as incomplete, be it missing north carolina driver's license numbers or the last four digits of their social security number. I understand that my name is on that list. I was born in wisconsin in a family that discussed politics around the kitchen table. It was stressed the importance of voting.
▶ 0:27:02Voting is not just a privilege or a right. It's a responsibility. Your civic duty. My vote is important. It is my voice in how our city, ♪our county, our stat, and our nation is governed. I'm here to represent all those north carolinians whose voter registrations are being challenged. We'll all 200,000 plus voters be contacted. Or will they find out next time they vote and can only receive a provisional ballot?
▶ 0:27:31How will you ever be able to contact that many people? How many will fall through the cracks? If contacted? Will they be able to navigate a system that isn't always easy? Some may not have computer access or savvy or transportation to the board of elections office. Others may get frustrated and give up because believe me, it has been a long and frustrating ordeal.
▶ 0:27:58When do you go to vote and your name is on the registration list? You show your valid id which has your photo and your current address. You should feel confident that your civic duty has been completed and your voice has been heard. There are voters like me who followed the rules, provided all the information election officials asked for when they registered to vote.
▶ 0:28:26Is it fair to make them go through this frustration? I don't believe so. This process is threatening the voices of north carolina voters and fracturing confidence in the government. Please do not remove the voices of registered north carolina voters, and I thank you for your time. >> the gentleman yields back. Uh, appreciate your testimony. I'll now recognize myself for the purpose of questioning our witnesses.
▶ 0:28:56Um, want to start with you, Mr. adams, if I can, I think one of the questions is, what is the federal standard? And what is the role of the federal government in making sure that states are maintaining their voter rolls? And so if we go back and look at section eight of the nvra, uh, states are required to conduct a general program with reasonable effort, end quote, uh, for voter list maintenance. And the question be how is the courts interpreted, uh, reasonable effort? Um, can you give us a little color as to what what is reasonable effort?
▶ 0:29:25Uh, according to the judiciary? >> well, that's a terrific question, because, uh, as it stands right now, it just means make an effort. You got a participation trophy, right? If you if you do something, you succeed. But look what congress passed after. A reasonable effort in the language of the statute says to remove. There's actually an action verb, isn't there? It's not just, uh, make an effort. It's actually have to do something. And I think that's what the courts have improperly focused on.
▶ 0:29:50>> and is it true in a court, in a case that you were involved in litigating, the court came back and said that the reasonable effort was is such a low standard, uh, that as long as one deceased voters removed from the rolls, they've met their section eight obligations. >> I think it's worse than that. As long as you have a program and you're doing anything, you you satisfied what congress tried to do. >> so. So what should the standard be, knowing that the courts have effectively gutted out, uh, what I view as a reasonable standard, um, from a general program should be something more specific.
▶ 0:30:17Um, how do we how do we redefine this to make it so that states actually have to do their job of maintaining proper voter? >> yeah, the nvra reads like a negligence statute, but in hava, the help america vote act, there's strict liability. If you have any problems on the rolls, then you're violating federal law. The problem is that the attorney general has the right to bring a lawsuit. There's no private right of action in the nvra. >> I want to continue with you, Mr. adams. So in the in the nvra, uh, are there restrictions on who can be removed?
▶ 0:30:45So if you have an individual say that's not a us citizen, this has come up. What are what are the restrictions on states from removing someone that they deem to be ineligible under the nvra? >> there really isn't a restriction on the state to remove a non-citizen. They have that freedom. Under our federalist arrangement. The nvra, however, doesn't reach non-citizens, meaning we can't bring a case to remove non-citizens under the nvra we tried, we found out the hard way. It doesn't. It doesn't fit. >> so you don't have standing to go and do that.
▶ 0:31:14Who who would have the standing to do that. >> the, the justice department would potentially under hava. But congress could expand the nvra to reach non-citizens. That's easy. It's hard to imagine anybody would vote against that. >> and so let's then maybe look at the state of illinois. We know that, uh, according to the doj, uh, 34 counties in illinois provided no evidence of voter list maintenance. So the doj can bring forward that claim as they are. And the trump administration. Uh, but if you didn't have the trump administration, it would simply be ignored because no one else would have standing.
▶ 0:31:44Knowing the state is unlikely, uh, to go after itself. Correct. >> you. You need somebody with the power to do something about it. >> so if you have a completely democratic state like illinois, they're not going to move forward on this. If you have a democratic administration or the biden administration, they look the other way. Uh, we could get into a jury meandering discussion with my colleague who was referenced in in the opening statement, you want to look at a case study? I'd I'd recommend looking at the congressional lines of illinois, uh, led by a fully democratic operation. But that's not the point of the hearing today.
▶ 0:32:13Uh, but if we look at that, is it really? But for, um, thank goodness, the trump administration coming in and pam bondi led department of justice that otherwise, uh, the state of illinois, uh, would not be under any sort of review. >> or make it the state of michigan. That's the real world example where the secretary of state there has done nothing for a long time. >> well, we chatted with her, uh, in this, in this exact hearing room.
▶ 0:32:36Not that not that long ago specifically, uh, about, uh, the poor voter list maintenance, uh, in the state of michigan. Uh, but you bring up a you bring up a good point. Uh, and what scenario can a state, uh, remove a voter, uh, who has moved? >> well, that's a tough one. And Mr. reamer talked about a bit. The nvra has hurdles, statutory hurdles that they have to go through, like waiting. And it's all based on this technology from 1993, like the postman. Right. Uh, and so the postman is given the power to keep our rolls cleaner. Not.
▶ 0:33:06And really, there's technology out there that this congress could address. >> so let me jump over to you, Mr. reamer, if I can, uh, in my time left, um, how about public access to voter rolls in wisconsin? Public access is available as public access available in virginia or the other 49 states around the country. >> uh, yes, chairman. It's available in every state that's covered by the nvra. Uh, and I know, Mr. adams. >> are there restrictions on people obtaining access to those voter rolls? >> states impose restrictions that the nvra prohibits.
▶ 0:33:35>> what would be an example of that? >> uh, not disclosing records concerning their basic list maintenance activities. They put walls up, they delay, they try to charge you more. All these things. And the nvra was designed to allow the public to audit state list maintenance activities. That was absolutely contemplated when the law was passed. But states just put up, put up barriers. >> and I think what we see is time and again, states failing to do their job as congress directed in the nvra, we see courts weakening the standards of the nvra.
▶ 0:34:04Uh, and I think it's absolutely imperative that we improve the process in which voter list maintenance is occurring. Um, cognizant of the time, I will yield back and I will recognize the ranking member, Mr. morelli, for five minutes for his questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair. I want to again thank the witnesses for being here. Um, miss haley, uh, you traveled all the way from raleigh to be here with us today, which I appreciate.
▶ 0:34:28Um, and also appreciate the perspective you bring to this, um, and want to thank you for your dedication to your commitment to voting. A lot of people would have, uh, simply walked away from this, um, and I think fighting for as hard as you have for the right to vote, um, and your perseverance, uh, how long? I know you said in your testimony, how long have you been voting in north carolina without any issues? >> uh, since we moved back to north carolina.
▶ 0:34:57That was in 2016. But prior to that, uh, we lived in north carolina for 20 years and moved away in 2005, then moved back in 2016, which we I was a voter in during all those years. >> and prior to 2024, when was the last year you voted? Do you know? >> um, I voted in every election. >> okay. So presumably 2023. Yes. Without any challenges.
▶ 0:35:27>> regular voter since 2016 primaries. General. And I never had an issue. I just had to show my picture id my north carolina license against the registration on, uh, the form when I went in. Right. >> and I was a little unclear. You you said you utilized the last four digits of your social security. Had you you you had done that originally. And your voter id, you used both.
▶ 0:35:54>> no, I used my social security number. >> the first time. >> which is one of the two acceptable ways, I assume, in north carolina. >> exactly. >> and then the board of elections suggested that they didn't have the four digits. >> they suggested that it might not match or or they didn't know if it was a clerical error that put either my name or the last four digits in incorrectly. But never did I hear after that.
▶ 0:36:23I would think if that was spitted out or whatever, I should have been notified that it wasn't correct. >> and you voted in 2024. Just to be clear, you went to the polling place, voted as you traditionally would. I did, and you were notified after the fact that you were now being questioned about whether you. >> were after the, um, griffin. Contest and contesting it. And I got a postcard in the mail.
▶ 0:36:52>> and so then you actually said in your testimony that you physically visited the wake county board of elections. >> I did. >> and this was after you had been determined that this is to rectify the problem. >> yes. >> and then you. So you thought everything was fine and then you learned again. Now? >> no, I don't know. Oh, I will check before the next election. I will verify it again. But you should be able to register and not worry about this, right.
▶ 0:37:21I will not be assured until I see it. I will visit the board of elections. >> but you said, um. The relief didn't last long. I was made aware. Oh, I see you're simply aware that there's a list of over 200,000 allegedly incomplete. You don't know that you're necessarily on it. >> I've been. I understand, I'm on that list. >> oh. You do? How do you how do you. Why do you feel that? Why do you, uh. >> because I'm in part of a lawsuit. >> so is your, uh.
▶ 0:37:51And how do you. How do you know that? >> I've been told it. >> oh, you have been? >> yeah. >> by the board of elections or by. By who? Who who shared that with you? >> I'm not sure at this point. >> okay. >> I just know that I understand. I'm on that list. >> got it, got it, got it. Well, I'd be curious just from the other witnesses. Is there any reason that you think that you could share with miss hayling? Why her? Why she shouldn't be allowed to vote? >> yeah, well, I don't think she should be allowed, but I can explain all of this.
▶ 0:38:20And she got railroaded by the state. The by the county officials is what happened. Ranking member morelli, when you passed haven 2020 to 2002. Hava requires all registrants have a unique identifying number. That's congressional statute. It's not complicated. What happened was, is north carolina screwed up when she registered in 2016? I think she said in north carolina, she gave them her number as required by hava, and they didn't put it into her record. That's what happened here. It's a typical incompetence.
▶ 0:38:50>> but she's now gone through and rectified it, and now she's still on a list of 200,000 voters are being challenged. >> well, that litigation is over with. She's no longer being challenged. What's happened now is the united states has filed a lawsuit to get north carolina in compliance with hava by going and harvesting those numbers for future elections. It's a classic example of a screw up by an election official hurting a voter. And that's what happened here.
▶ 0:39:17>> and yet your testimony is that you feel you are part of the 200,000 folks. So you're still concerned that your vote may not count. You're clearly a us citizen. >> not not only that, I'm part of it, but there there are 200,000 plus more that are going to have to go through what I did. >> yeah. And I, I would just as I yield back, Mr. chair, I think there are a number of things we could do, uh, including providing resources, which I don't think is anticipated here.
▶ 0:39:43And I don't know how we do this important work without providing resources to local state boards of election. With that, I'll yield back. Chair. >> thank you, ranking member morelli. And thank you to our witnesses for appearing here today. When I served as the secretary of state of florida, one of my core responsibilities was to work with local election officials to ensure voter rolls were accurate and up to date.
▶ 0:40:07Voter list maintenance is a critical part of ensuring election accuracy and building public confidence in our elections process. This is not and should never be a partizan issue. Maintaining accurate and reliable voter rolls is fundamental to election security and public trust. That work is not suppression. That work is not a purge.
▶ 0:40:32It is an essential part of sound administration and public accountability, and should be required both by clear laws and by any reasonable standard of public integrity. As members of this committee, we have a responsibility to ensure that every state is using clear, consistent standards to maintain their rolls, and we should be promoting transparency, supporting data sharing tools,
▶ 0:41:02And removing barriers that prevent states from performing these essential duties. I was so pleased to see that president trump's executive order on preserving and protecting the integrity of american elections supports these goals, including expanding access to tools like the save database, which helps identify voters who may no longer or may not be eligible.
▶ 0:41:26So I thank you all for bringing with you today ideas and testimony that relate to how we can support election officials in doing that better. Uh, Mr. riemer, I would like to return to. Your testimony about the nvra and the 90 day blackout periods.
▶ 0:41:49I think that's an important thing for us to understand as we consider, uh, the way that law is written today and how it might be better. So you mentioned the blackout periods, and now there are different types of removals, are there? Not that some of which are affected by blackout periods, some aren't. Would you please elaborate for us on what the law is now and how it could be improved? >> absolutely.
▶ 0:42:14Uh, so the blackout period applies to systemic list maintenance that takes place within 90 days of any federal election, as it relates to voters who have moved, uh, and some courts have interpreted it to apply to, uh, removing noncitizens and other ineligible voters as well. It does not apply to removing, uh, deceased, and it does not apply to removing some other types of ineligible voters.
▶ 0:42:38Um, individualized removals are permitted within the 90 day period, but anytime a state tries to do individualized removals, they get sued, saying that it's a it's a prohibited system systemic removal process. >> as a former board of elections officials, you helped virginia establish data sharing agreements with neighboring states. Would you tell us how effective were those useful?
▶ 0:43:07Is it something that you recommend other states deploy to help ensure their role accuracy? >> absolutely. It's absolutely essential because the data does not have enough. Uh, it's missing. It's missing information. The best way is for states to talk to each other, uh, and to share that information and to, uh, you know, get these voters off the rolls.
▶ 0:43:32And I think one thing that I was emphasizing is what we really need to do is skip this confirmation process that you have to wait two federal general elections as much as possible, because it's just it just doesn't work. It's too clunky. >> and, Mr. adams, I'd like to return to you. One of the things you mentioned in your testimony was the third party voter registration groups, and the effect that they have on contributing in some places to inaccuracy or duplicate registrations.
▶ 0:44:01Would you elaborate on what those groups are, how they work, and how they affect this problem? >> right. These are the people with clipboards that community events are at the grocery store. And what we have found over and over and over again, the problems on the voter rolls are often traced back to third party registrations, whether it's rashawn slade, which I would urge you to look in my written testimony in the appendix, he was getting registered to vote six times by third party groups. Same with non-citizens in north carolina.
▶ 0:44:27We trace those back in those reports to third party registration groups. Look, there's a different incentive structure. They want to get as many people registered as possible, so they don't do a lot of quality control. >> I'd also like for you to touch on, in your experience, some of the efforts and some of the links that elections officials go to in their communities to help ensure that voters are able to register, and that registering to vote is an accessible and easy process for them.
▶ 0:44:56>> yeah, it is never been easier in the united states to register to vote than it is right now, today. And it's never been easier to vote than it is today. And that's in large measure because of the diligence of a lot of election officials who pour a lot of time and money into making it easy to register and vote. That's why the registration and participation rates were so high in this last federal election. >> thank you. I now recognize the ranking member of the election subcommittee. The gentlelady from alabama, miss sewell. >> thank you, madam chair.
▶ 0:45:25I want to welcome all of our visitors here today and our witnesses. Um, as a daughter of selma and the ranking member on the subcommittee on elections, there's nothing more important to me than making sure that every eligible american has access to the ballot box. Our vote is our voice, and everyone's voice should be heard in elections. Voting is the most important way americans participate in the political process.
▶ 0:45:50But far too often, illegal voter purging occurs, removing eligible voters from the rolls and preventing them from exercising their right to vote. A few months ago, or a few months before the november election in my home state of alabama, secretary of state wes allen, who actually appeared before this committee, uh, a few months ago, directed the alabama board of registrars to remove individuals from the voter rolls that were issued as, quote, noncitizen identification numbers, end quote, by the
▶ 0:46:21Department of homeland security. Secretary allen shared a list of 3251 voters with the alabama attorney general, steve marshall, for potential prosecution. However, his office failed to implement the proper safeguards to ensure that eligible voters didn't fall through the cracks. As a result, secretary allen's purging initiatives removed more than 2000 eligible alabama voters illegally from the rolls.
▶ 0:46:51One of these legally registered voters was my constituent rolled up. His name is Mr. um, uh, hazel hoff. Um, he was a resident of birmingham. Uh, he moved from the netherlands to alabama in 1988, and he gained his citizenship in a us citizenship immigration naturalization process in montgomery on july 18th, 2022.
▶ 0:47:15In 2023, he obtained his star id, which requires individuals, as we all know, to show up to show proof of citizenship. 84 days before the election, he received a letter from the department of the board of registrars informing him that he was removed from the voter rolls. I'd like to submit his testimony, his story, into the record. May I ask unanimous consent to do so? >> with no objection. So ordered. >> so my constituent, Mr.
▶ 0:47:43Uh hazelhoff, who actually is an american naturalized citizen, was denied the opportunity to vote, and he had to prove, even though he had already submitted his id, that he was actually a citizen. And he showed that proof.
▶ 0:48:00But I know, like you, um, miss helling, that so many people don't have the opportunity or the time or the patience to actually go to the board of registrars to prove like you did, that you actually were illegally purged. So there are lots and lots of folks that go about doing that. And I want you to talk a little bit about how long it took you to actually get your name back on the rolls and have you.
▶ 0:48:27And the second part of that question is, are you assured that in future elections that you will actually not be on such an illegal purged roll? >> well, when I received that postcard, I scanned the qr code. It was very difficult to follow because you could only do it on your phone. And, uh, I spent well over an hour trying to find my name. There was no, uh, easy way.
▶ 0:48:55You couldn't pull up your name and look for it. You just had to look. And after all that time, I said, oh, heck, my husband and I registered together. This has to be a mistake. >> was your husband's role? He was not purged from the roll. But you were, even though you all registered. >> yes. Even though we registered at the same time. Mhm.
▶ 0:49:17Um, so it took that time and then I kind of didn't worry about it until I saw another search engine and all of a sudden there was my name. Whoa. What happened? So I had to think about it and I thought, no, I've got to go fix this, which is a drive. It used the board of elections used to be right downtown. It's now further out of the city. So I the.
▶ 0:49:44>> point is that you took more than reasonable efforts to go about getting your name back on the rolls. >> that's how I grew. >> and, madam chair, I, I agree with you that election integrity is a bipartisan issue. I think no one benefits when people are illegally purged from the voter rolls.
▶ 0:50:01One must one must maintain a voter list, and every effort should be made to make sure that the people on that voter list are legitimately not supposed to be, and that therein lies the rub.
▶ 0:50:15So, miss, um, miss helling, could you talk a little bit about what you think your advice would be to us to make sure that there's a balance, that we have a proper balance between maintaining rolls and making sure that we're not using it as a weapon, uh, to purge and to cause voter suppression. >> and I understand the importance of voters being registered.
▶ 0:50:37But when we were registered and we gave all the information that was asked of us, and we provided that with our photo id, with our current address, should we not be able to continue to vote? And why would we take 200,000 plus people? >> and that's just in north carolina. >> through this. >> yeah. Thank you so much for allowing her to complete her sentence.
▶ 0:51:04And I want to thank you for actually coming to our committee today to provide your own testimony, personal testimony, as to how so often these voter maintenance programs are used for voter suppression and actually do purge legitimate american citizens. Thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> I now recognize Mr. loudermilk, uh, of georgia, for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair.
▶ 0:51:30One week ago today, something absolutely incredible happened in my district. Major major league baseball played the all star game at truist park in atlanta. Why is that incredible? Because in 2021, major league baseball pulled the all star game from atlanta based on false information and fear tactics spread about georgia's election integrity bill.
▶ 0:51:58Why did it come back? Georgia's election integrity bill is still the law today, as it was in 2021. Why? Because all the fear mongering turned out to be inaccurate. In fact, in the 2024 election, record number of minorities voted early. Why? Because exactly what we said that bill would do would make it easier to vote and harder to cheat.
▶ 0:52:26This is an illustration of how missing information and fear tactics hurt the majority of people who should be able to vote. Every time someone is. And part of the election integrity bill was to clean up voter rolls.
▶ 0:52:43I remember back, uh, growing up in georgia, there was a joke about a politician who would go into the local cemetery to practice his campaign stump speeches, and he would go to one side of the cemetery and practice, and he would go to another side. And somebody asked him, said, why do you walk all around the cemetery? Speaking? He said, because the people on that side of the graveyard have just enough right to vote for me as the people on the side of the graveyard. I mean, that was a running joke.
▶ 0:53:11Um, but the it was based on reality that disenfranchizes people who should be able to vote and should have influence in elections. Uh, Mr. reamer, what is the role of an election official in removing voters who have died? And what steps did you take in virginia to ensure that the deceased voters were no longer on the rolls? >> absolutely. Uh, so the role is really going to depend on whether you're at the state or local level.
▶ 0:53:39Um, at the state level, you're really responsible for making sure that the local election officials have access to the death data, whether that's from social security administration, whether it's from state vital statistics, uh, at the, at the local level, that they're the ones typically removing these deceased voters in virginia, the local registrars would actually go through obituaries like the good ones would actually go through local obituaries or other similar sources and remove voters that way.
▶ 0:54:06Uh, so it's really it's really an all of the above approach. You're not going to find every deceased person, uh, and remove them, but you I think most states can certainly do better than they have. And it just takes in all of the above approach. >> so what about states like virginia and georgia that have voter id laws? How does that equate, you know, what's the link? What's the importance of cleaning the voter rolls there? >> sure.
▶ 0:54:31Well, if you don't have voter id and you have somebody that's on the rolls that is no longer in the state or is no longer alive, uh, obviously there's the chance that someone could go and vote on behalf of that person, or if someone hasn't been removed, uh, and they live in another state, they can vote in both states. And we know that happens. It's a relatively common occurrence. Uh, so if you're not verifying the identity of that person, then someone could vote fictitiously in their name.
▶ 0:55:00>> so why is it important to clean the rolls within 90 days of an election? >> well, I think it's important to relax the blackout period, because oftentimes a lot of these issues don't even come, don't really emerge until closer and before the election. And because that blackout period also applies to a primary, I mean, really, you're looking at the entire federal election year, uh, you're you're stopped from doing anything to remove voters, at least those who are nonresidents at this point.
▶ 0:55:29So it just you have to sit on your hands and just, you know, be approaching an election and know there are ineligible voters on your voter file and not be able to do anything about it. >> so you mentioned, um, at the beginning of your your response to my question, some of the resources that can be used to verify voter identity, what are the most useful or the most effective that you have seen. >> as far as list maintenance tools?
▶ 0:55:56Uh, I certainly think data from other states is huge. Obviously, americans are moving between states constantly. And it's really important that states are sharing data with one another. I think Mr. adams brought up towards the end of his presentation the use of commercial data. I think that's very important. You know, the we have always relied on the postal service. Uh, and let's face it, the postal service is not what it used to be. The ncoa database is not what it used to be.
▶ 0:56:24And so you've got to go outside those traditional sources of data and get creative. And I think the use of commercial data is one that's got a lot of promise. >> thank you, madam chair. I yield back. >> I now recognize miss torres from california for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. And thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I know that some of you, it's not your first time here.
▶ 0:56:47And just like last year, it's important to put the to put on the record yet again the concerning actions taken by witness testifying before us today. Mr. adams. Um, chairwoman, I ask for unanimous consent to submit to the record two articles. An nbc news article titled vote fraud crusader.
▶ 0:57:11Jay christian adams sparks outrage and an abc news article titled americans accused of non-citizen voter fraud face doxing and intimidation. Without objection, so ordered. >> in 2016 and 2017, the public interest legal foundation, a right wing group known for suing states to delete voters off of their election rolls and making false claims of voter fraud, of which Mr.
▶ 0:57:38Adams is the president, published a two part report titled alien invasion that, among other things, falsely accused american citizens of felony voting fraud. Additionally, Mr.
▶ 0:57:52Adams organization shamefully, shamefully published the names, addresses, phone numbers, and in some cases, social security numbers of those he falsely accused doxing law abiding american citizens and threatening their privacy and security for the simple act of choosing their representatives and as a result, a group of virginia voters sued the organization, forcing Mr.
▶ 0:58:21Adams and his organization to apologize in the settlement. Chairwoman, I ask unanimous consent to submit an article from law and crime titled former trump voting commission official forced to apologize for falsely accusing people of voter fraud. >> without objection, so ordered. >> court documents also show that Mr.
▶ 0:58:45Adams organization had emails where election officials raised concerns about how the records misrepresent information. Yet the organization, led by Mr. adams, still went ahead and published the report that falsely accused americans of committing voter fraud and listed out names, addresses and social security numbers. These reckless actions, and the ones before, make it clear to me that Mr.
▶ 0:59:15Adams and some of the republican witnesses here today are not here to ensure that our elections are run fairly, but rather to make sure that elections favor one party, the republican party. Time and time again, we see this play out from president trump and my colleagues across the aisle pushing misinformation when it comes to election results and voter fraud.
▶ 0:59:41These actions have one goal to sow distrust in our election system, to suppress the vote, and to make it harder for americans to have their voices heard. Noncitizen voting is extremely rare, and it is already outlawed. But do you know what makes people question our elections? It isn't how the voter rolls are administered, it is president trump organizations run by those like Mr.
▶ 1:00:08Adams and the republican party, pushing lies after lies after lies about voter fraud and election results. We saw that in the 2020 election, in the violent january 6th insurrection, which happened because the president denied the results of an election. We're seeing it this year again, where republicans tried to throw out 60,000 votes to overturn the north carolina supreme court race. They lost.
▶ 1:00:37It took nearly half a year for the republican candidate to concede. They forced many eligible american voters like miss haley, who is testifying here today, to jump through hoop after hoop to make sure her vote was counted.
▶ 1:00:53After the results didn't go their way, the trump weaponized doj, sued north carolina and now miss hailing and 200,000 people in her state are at risk of not being able to vote. And last month, they sued orange county, california, over voter records. It is not a surprise that these are all areas that had competitive elections.
▶ 1:01:19This is happening while trump is forcing texas republicans to redraw congressional maps so that he can try to maintain power and steal another election. At the same time, trump's illegal voting plan and the republican save act will create huge burdens for every american, including nearly 70 million women who, like me, chose to take their husband's last name.
▶ 1:01:46It makes it harder for service members who are trying to vote overseas, and I yield back. >> I now recognize doctor murphy of north carolina for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chairman.
▶ 1:02:00You know, I've been in congress a little over five years now, and I feel it's kind of like a basketball game where the guy who does the wrong thing first and then the other part, he maybe he fouls one player first and the second player who responded, it's everybody puts the attention to the response rather than the primary problem to begin with. And that's what it seems to be. We always scream at what the reaction is rather than the real problem itself. Nobody is saying that our election system is perfect. Nobody's saying that we live in a human society. We have human frailty. We're not saying that mistakes happen.
▶ 1:02:30Um, and that's why we have reform. You know, it's very interesting. We're talking about the north carolina board of elections and how, um, miss holding, you know, really got screwed by them. Absolutely. But I think I just want to point out that the north carolina board of elections has been run by democrats for many, many years. And I'm happy to say that now the legislature has taken control of the north carolina board of elections and turn it over to republican control.
▶ 1:02:58And now the republicans have begun the registration repair project to ensure that all eligible, eligible voters have accurate and complete information on file. Imagine that we're actually running a system that works. The state board of elections has publicly announced that the project will not result in the removal of any eligible voters.
▶ 1:03:19So we had a horrible, horribly run democratic system that miss helyg had the terrible, um, experience of having to deal with. And now the adults have come into the room and said, we're actually going to run something, right? That's great. You know, look, I we sat right here. Y'all sat at that table when the michigan secretary of state sat there and she had would not allow the removal of over 22,000 dead people. How are we supposed to respond to that, republican or democrat? How do you respond to that? That's fraud period.
▶ 1:03:49Point blank. And that's our job, is to ensure that those people are taken off the rolls. We don't want any eligible voter removed. The experience that you went through, ma'am, was horrible. I'm sorry for that on the on the part of north carolina. But, you know, damn if we want our elections to be secure, it's okay that we look at this stuff. It's much more it's much worse if we have somebody voting who shouldn't than somebody, sadly enough, had to go through what you did. So I apologize for that.
▶ 1:04:18Um, there's a new sheriff in town in north carolina, and hopefully they'll run it in a system that actually works, rather than having 200,000 people put on a roll, um, where their, their voting rights are questioned. Uh, I'll turn back. Uh, Mr. riemer, um, just a couple questions. The federal requirements for notifying voters before removing them from voter rolls. Can you expand on those a little bit? >> absolutely.
▶ 1:04:43Uh, so once an election official, uh, has reason to believe that a voter may have moved, for example, uh, they are required to mail what's known as a confirmation mailing, and that is sent to the address where the voter is registered, uh, affordable. So if the if the voter has moved somewhere else, in theory, that piece of mail is supposed to go to their new their new address.
▶ 1:05:03Um, so that is that is how the process works when that mail does not come back to the election official, um, or the voter does not return it, saying, I've moved, cancel me from the voter rolls, which is what happens only 30% of the time. Only the voters only request cancellation about 30% of the time, or notify the election official that they're still there and not to remove them.
▶ 1:05:26Uh, what happens is those election officials, unless they hear from the voter, they have to wait for up to four years until they can remove that individual from the voter rolls. >> yes. I mean, it just, you know, I had a former colleague, anesthesiologist who we were in the operating room talking one day and he was livid. He knows he went to vote and someone had voted in his place to. So to say this stuff doesn't occur is absolutely wrong. And then I've had patients who said, yes, I got mailed five ballots, five ballots to my house.
▶ 1:05:53But so, so to want to clean up this system is not wrong. It's not wrong. It is absolutely the right thing to do. Um, I just I'm baffled that people want to fight that. Um, one other question. Um, actually, Mr. adams, thanks for being here today. What is the best practice for states to share voter identification roll with each other? And I will say this real quickly. Um, and maybe my time might run out.
▶ 1:06:21I apologize, you know, social security has a great pension. If somebody dies, you get a notice pretty damn quick that you're not getting your benefits. Why can't we tie that to, uh, to voter rolls with that concept? But anyway, I'll let you answer your question. >> the best is commercial data. Uh, commissioner dawn palmer at the occ has advocated for this. I'm on the board of advisors of the election assistance commission. We have advocated at public interest legal foundation use. Experian commercial data's the most accurate.
▶ 1:06:49There's a cost, but we can figure this out. >> yeah. All right. Thank you, madam chairman, I yield back. >> I now recognize the representative from texas, miss johnson, for five minutes. >> thank you, madam. Thank you, madam chair. Um, I want to respond to, uh, doctor murphy. You know, the thing is, is that. Election integrity is critically important.
▶ 1:07:16Democrats don't want people who are not eligible to vote to be able to vote. Period. Full stop. But what we do want is that every eligible voter gets the chance to vote and that their constitutional rights are not infringed upon. And that seems to be a huge distinction.
▶ 1:07:38Doctor murphy just said he was okay with a citizen not being eligible, not being allowed to vote if it prevented somebody who wasn't eligible to vote from voting. The reality of it is the constitution of the united states is pretty clear on the matter. I have my little pocket handy dandy constitution, the right of citizens of the united states to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the united states, or by any state, period.
▶ 1:08:08And it's telling your constitutional rights to vote were abridged by the state of north carolina, weren't they? They were. And that is unacceptable in this country. I don't want dead people voting. I don't want people who are non-citizens are not eligible to vote to be able to vote any more than anybody else does. But I damn sure want eligible citizens to be able to cast their ballot.
▶ 1:08:30And so the problem is, madam chair, and in this hearing, we're not talking about the ways to improve the system, to make sure that we have inviolate guardrails in place to keep citizens from being prevented to vote. And in texas, you know, republicans have controlled texas now for almost 30 years.
▶ 1:08:50And, you know, greg abbott, our governor, tried to kick 95,000 people off the rolls in 2019, uh, saying they were non-citizens. And it turned out, you know, what? They were actually citizens. They were people who had been naturalized, who had gotten the permission to swear their oath to the constitution, pay their taxes, were united states citizens, and they tried to deny them the right to vote. It took a lawsuit to reinstate them. That's not acceptable in this country.
▶ 1:09:18That's not preserving election integrity. Greg abbott also tried to kick 1.1 million voters off the voter rolls in texas, saying there was all kinds of fraud. Now, granted, he administers the secretary of state's office to allow these unauthorized people to vote that he supposedly now is saying, oh, we shouldn't have voting.
▶ 1:09:40And again, that was proven that there was it was full of legal us citizens to cast their right to vote. You know, we there's all sorts of things we could talk about online registration. If every state had online registration, you could go in and update your registration and it would update it. You wouldn't have all these duplicate entries. But you know what? Texas doesn't let online voter registration. To your point, Mr. adams, human error.
▶ 1:10:05They don't allow the computer to work for you. Everything has to be done manually in our state because they make it hard to vote. Texas is the hardest state to vote in. I believe somebody said that. I think one of you said this is the united states is the easiest country to vote. I beg to differ in. At least in my state, you can't register online. You can't register the same day you have to print a ballot.
▶ 1:10:30You know how many young people don't even have access to a printer, and then you have to mail it and stamp it. They can't even figure out their way to get to a post office. It's no wonder why young people aren't voting. We make it hard for people to register to vote. If we wanted it to be easy, everything would be able to be done online. We pay our taxes online. We do everything else online. If we had a national voter registration system, then maybe all this interstate moving could be addressed.
▶ 1:10:57There's things that we should be debating to improve the system, and I'm here for that all day long. But what I am not going to tolerate is this notion that we should deny citizens the right to vote like you had, like what we're seeing in texas, like what we saw in georgia, like what we're seeing in states throughout this country under the name of cleaning a list, because we're not ensuring the inviolate protection of citizens to cast
▶ 1:11:28Their right to vote as the constitution requires. I wish, you know the frustration. I am sick and tired of this, this situation, this insinuation that democrats don't care about election integrity. That is false. But what we do care about is making sure that people aren't disproportionately targeted because of their color, of their skin, their naturalized citizenship status, or anything of the matter. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:11:55Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. An article from the brennan center for justice titled homeland security save program exacerbates risk to voters. >> without objection, the gentleman's time has expired. The gentleman from ohio, Mr. kerry, is recognized for five minutes. >> I want to thank the chairman. I want to thank the ranking member. I do have some questions, but I want to use a little point of personal privilege.
▶ 1:12:21We in ohio, we have two democrats, and we have two republicans that serve on our board of elections. And, uh, we lost, uh, one of the great ones. She was on the opposing side of me, 72 years old, found out she had a brain cancer and just passed away. So kimberly was, uh, somebody that I got to know when I first got elected. But I just wanted to take this opportunity to read the comments that our democrat or republican board chairman said about kim.
▶ 1:12:52She he told the columbus dispatch that he was very saddened and that she was a very decent person for many years. He said he served with king kim, but she was always a loyal democrat. She was first and foremost a loyal public servant. So I just wanted to say that in memory of her today, you know, the maintenance for voter lists is critical. Ensuring secure, fair elections across our nation. Read with interest all your testimony.
▶ 1:13:20Accurate voter rolls, drive down administrative costs, prevent fraud and reassure the general public that the voting process is trustworthy, and to safeguard these vital processes. The federal government previously took action by enacting the national voter registration act and the help america vote act. Now, I want to highlight some of the things that our secretary of frank, frank larose from ohio, has done in columbus.
▶ 1:13:47The secretary and his team annually audit the statewide voter registration database, frequently monitoring for voter inactivity, and reviews voting history from other states to identify double voters.
▶ 1:14:06Additionally, efforts by county boards of elections include regularly updating rolls to check for changes in addresses, possibly deceased voters, and the removal of duplicate registration so to ensure the transparency. Transparency for ohioans.
▶ 1:14:24The statewide voter registration database is actually posted weekly on the secretary of state's website, and the public can view the daily voter registration snapshots to see which registrations were added, updated or removed. So, Mr. adams, I know there's a lot of information here, but why is transparency when conducting voter lists maintenance important? >> well, that's what congress put into the nvra so we can look. And we brought cases.
▶ 1:14:53We won a case in the first circuit court of appeals for transparency. We just have a case in the fourth circuit on appeal, where we beat south carolina, because they actually don't let anyone look at the rolls unless you're a registered voter, which totally violates the nvra. Without transparency, you can't know what's going on. And that's why it's so important. >> so let me ask you, do the jurisdictional differences in list maintenance practices ever become troublesome when looking at efforts from a legal standpoint?
▶ 1:15:20>> oh my gosh, there's a huge gulf between what states are doing. Some very innovative secretaries of state, uh, for example, yours are using data sets that they wouldn't even think of in other states. So there's wide differences across the country and what they. >> do. Now, I know what our secretary of state would say if I asked him this question, but I'm going to ask you, should more states adopt ohio's method of voter roll maintenance? >> well, I can name michigan ought to start.
▶ 1:15:50There's the top list, but there's other states that that desperately should get up to ohio standards that aren't even close new york. Look, new york has enormous numbers of people without social security numbers or the mandated number in their database. And that's why I said the ranking member is going to have to mail campaign material wasting money because the voter rolls are messed up over a simple error. >> well, I want to thank you. I want to thank all the witnesses for traveling, traveling here. And, um, with that, Mr.
▶ 1:16:21Chairman, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. The gentlewoman from illinois is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, for holding this hearing today on the critical issue of maintaining the integrity of our voter rolls or, in the case of illinois, restoring the integrity of our voter rolls, ensuring that voter rolls are accurate and contain only eligible voters is essential to the public's confidence in our elections.
▶ 1:16:51For far too long, states like illinois have failed to uphold the law and carry out the responsibilities under the national voter registration act. I was pleased to see that the department of justice recently filed a statement of interest in judicial watch's lawsuit against the illinois state board of elections.
▶ 1:17:12As noted in judicial watch's lawsuit, illinois has refused to develop a statewide program for voter roll maintenance. In fact, the doj intervention in illinois found, according to the 2022 election administration voting survey conducted by the election assistance commission.
▶ 1:17:35Unbelievably, 34 jurisdictions in illinois simply failed to report any data regarding list maintenance removals under the national voter registration act. 19 of these 34 counties failed to report any data regarding uh registrants removed due to death, meaning no one died in 19 counties. Do we believe that?
▶ 1:18:02And then obviously, we're keeping these people on the voter rolls in 23 illinois counties, fewer than 100 registrations were canceled during a two year period. Out of almost 1 million registrations, which judicial watch notes is absurdly, is an absurdly small number and demonstrates illinois's lack of commitment to maintain clean voter rolls under the nvra.
▶ 1:18:28As this committee is well aware, illinois has a history of voting irregularities, irregular irregularities, and I appreciate the opportunity to highlight this important issue today. So, Mr. adams, what is required under the reasonable effort standard for voter list maintenance? >> well, almost nothing. And that's what, in my written testimony, you'll find the sixth circuit court of appeals ruled if you have a program, it's good enough.
▶ 1:18:57Uh, it doesn't matter if the proof is in the pudding. It doesn't matter if it's effective. One thing congress might do on the data that you just talked about, congressman miller, is, um, when I was the justice department, I brought the case of united states versus alabama, and I brought the case of united states versus vermont. And those two states were not reporting the data that you were just talking about, but it was only for uocava voters. For military voters. There's no obligation in the statute to report those data for regular voters.
▶ 1:19:26Congress just left out regular voters when they did the nvra for the eve survey. That's what you're referring to. It's eve, the election assistance commission. You might extend that to the entire survey that states have to do that. It's optional. They don't have to report any data unless it's a military voter. >> well, that's why we're having this hearing to highlight this and to make changes. So Mr.
▶ 1:19:49Riemer, as a former virginia state board of elections official, how do election officials traditionally prescribe regulations to conduct voter list maintenance? >> absolutely. Uh, it is a combination of statutory obligations that the, uh, the general assembly in virginia set, uh, which complement the nvra.
▶ 1:20:12And while I was in virginia, uh, governor mcdonnell was very aggressive about beefing up the statutory provisions for that. We had to follow, uh, we had to do annual reports to the general assembly outlining in detail our list maintenance activities. There were more frequent checks, uh, that we had to make as well. The issue I brought up about finding the 10,000 dead voters on our voter rolls that had been there for so long.
▶ 1:20:38Uh, you know, that's something that should have been caught, but there had never no one had ever gone back and say, let's take a look at the entire death file and compare it against the voter registration list. Everyone just assumed that these periodic comparisons were catching all the dead voters, but they weren't. And for some reason we had this large pile of them on there. So these were all things that were enshrined in the law that we had to follow.
▶ 1:21:00And I think a lot of states could use more statutes and more regulations, just being more prescriptive in what they need to do. >> so how often did the state direct appropriate departments or officials to remove ineligible voter registrants. >> as frequently as possible, as frequently as possible? We, uh, made a major cancellation, uh, leading up to the 2013 general election. Uh, promptly got sued.
▶ 1:21:27Uh, we got sued several times on on list maintenance issues because of how aggressive we were in the state. >> thank you for your work. Thank you. Chairman. >> the gentleman's time has expired. She yields back. Uh, that concludes our questioning. I'd like to thank our witnesses for appearing before us today. Members of the committee may have some additional questions for you, and we ask that you please respond to those questions in writing. Without objection, each member will have five legislative days to assert additional material into the record or revise and extend the remark.
▶ 1:21:56Uh, there being no further business, I thank the members for their participation. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.