▶ 0:01:21Okay. Okay. Better.
▶ 0:01:24Okay. Awesome. Okay. Adam's going to fix the slate here momentarily.
▶ 0:01:29Thanks. Thanks. Bye. Bye.
▶ 0:21:03Good morning and welcome to today's hearing on potential reforms to a bid process uh protest process. This is the hearing of the subcommittee on government operations and the federal workforce and we will come to order and I'd like to welcome everybody. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time and I would recognize myself for the purpose of making an open statement.
▶ 0:21:31Uh I understand the gentleman from Tennessee has a motion. Gentleman's recognized.
▶ 0:21:38Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to direct the chairman of the full committee to authorize and issue a subpoena for Galain Maxwell to to appear for a deposition. Thank you very much. That motion by the gentleman from Tennessee. All those in favor signify by saying I.
▶ 0:21:57All those opposed signify by saying no. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it. The motion is agreed to. The committee will now resume its hearing. I thank the gentleman from Tennessee.
▶ 0:22:07Thank you, Mr. chairman for your attention to this matter.
▶ 0:22:11I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Uh and this is important today that we have gathered together and we have three important witnesses who will help guide this committee on what I believe is should be a regular process as part of the success to ensure that the American people put trust in the federal government to spend their taxpayer dollars wisely.
▶ 0:22:37And as we need to continue oversight to ensure not only that, but also that we listen to professionals who deal with these issues to provide us status. In fiscal year 2024, the federal government spent about $755 on goods and services through the contracting process.
▶ 0:23:01And while there is significant focus on what federal agencies bought, we need to focus also on that process and how they do so. Part of the contracting process includes the mechanisms known as a bid protest that serves to ensure government procurements are competitive and fair. I believe this is an important goal.
▶ 0:23:23So, it is incumbent upon the subcommittee, this subcommittee, government operations and the federal workforce to review the bid process as part of our regular And indeed, we have looked at this process. We've learned that there are feedback, concerns, and feedback that need must be reviewed to determine whether changes to our system are in order.
▶ 0:23:48Critics of the current process say that the bid protests have become ingrained in the solicitation and the award process with companies factoring in a protest as soon as the contract is announced.
▶ 0:24:04Other critics say that contracting officers are more concerned with creating the best paper record to defend their decisions rather than achieving the best results for the federal government and the United States Supporters of the process who want reforms say that delays are due to bureaucratic red tape at the procuring agency.
▶ 0:24:27either the agency is too slow in developing requirements or too slow to implement corrective actions. While there are potentially a number of problems in need of solution, it appears to me that the process may be This makes it difficult for agencies to get the goods or services that they need, reducing their ability to timely deliver on their mission.
▶ 0:24:55I am aware of a variety of these issues that need to be considered. So, is it too easy to Can we maintain fairness while requiring more string stringent criteria be met before a complaint can be filed? Are there too many bites at the apple for those who protest? Time frames are involved in that.
▶ 0:25:18If a party does not like the results they get, are they bogging down the system by re religating what they really wanted in the first place? Are there additional steps that can be taken before solicitation and issues which would prevent protests once an award is made? Should we adopt a loser pays approach? And how would this work?
▶ 0:25:42It seems to me that this and other solutions could reduce and limit serial protesters who lodge a protest because they have nothing to lose. That is why we are here today.
▶ 0:25:56We're here today to ask three people who were deeply involved in this process and have a vast background who were able to help guide not only this subcommittee but I believe members of Congress to where we understand more about the process that we ask questions about.
▶ 0:26:16As we examine this bid protest, as in the case with many other issues, ranking member infume and I want to investigate, we need to ensure that we have the right information to make good decisions that with your guidance will help us. And I am concerned we do not have those available to us until today. We have a lot of things that that are stories. We have a lot of things where people say things.
▶ 0:26:44Perhaps there's even a viewpoint about uh with an unsolicited uh amount of creative information or information from those who are involved in the process who have opinions. But these insights are all important. And if we begin that story today with people who are in the know who can guide us, it's helpful.
▶ 0:27:08The Trump administration is committed to reforms and here in this subcommittee we're going to listen to that venue. We believe the vehicle to do that is by an open hearing, one that is not just matched with Republicans and Democrats, but good government people. And that is what we believe we have on the side of Republicans and our friends that are Democrats who are here today who serve on this government operations subcommittee.
▶ 0:27:36We want to make sure that we are approaching problems, issues and ideas thoughtfully. So today we'll hear from a distinguished subject matter experts who are in the field who understand the problem who know that ultimately we want to make sure that we are reviewing this to be thoughtful about what we are doing. So with that said, I would now yield to the ranking member or uh his designate which in this case would be Miss Norton. Miss Norton, thank you very much.
▶ 0:28:05That gentle woman is recognized.
▶ 0:28:07Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, and thank you uh to the witnesses for being here On this subcommittee, we have been steadfast in our bipartisan work.
▶ 0:28:23Together, we've committed to identifying to longstanding challenges faced by our federal agencies, including improper financial management, and fraud pred at the Department of Defense.
▶ 0:28:47We have long recognized these issues that complicate the efforts of federal agencies to be the stewards of taxpayer resources that Americans deserve. on this specific topic of uh bid protests.
▶ 0:29:08However, it's essential that any changes we make to the system are by data. Data that in some cases we don't yet have. The US government is the largest buyer of goods and services in the world.
▶ 0:29:32It represents an important opportunity for businesses offering solutions to that help to to that can help uh our federal agencies meet their goals in serving the American people.
▶ 0:29:50The big the bid protest process plays an essential role for preserving public trust by helping to prevent corruption and unfair deals deals.
▶ 0:30:07It ensures that these doors of opportunity are open to businesses of all sizes and backgrounds and not just those who are politically The bid process uh keeps our federal agencies accountable and guarantees that if you're offering a good deal to the American public, your bid on government work has a fair
▶ 0:30:37shot. A fair and effective bid process also ensures that the American people are getting value for their hard-earned money by promoting robust and fair competition among competi contractors and government businesses.
▶ 0:31:00The sense of a of fairness encourages the innovative small businesses owner owned by veterans and minorities to jump into this competitive process environment to offer their services. The immense volume of contracts awarded across the federal government calls for special attention from Congress and executive branch leaders.
▶ 0:31:31It is imperative that the DoD and the federal agencies are empowered to procure goods and services efficiently. Uh, I do not believe this goal requires sacrificing by erecting overtly burdenome barriers to wishing to protest
▶ 0:32:02potential unfairness and impropriy on the part of the government. As we examine this issue today and as the subcommittee engages in efforts to reform our procurement system, several aspects of the bid protest system should be top of mind.
▶ 0:32:30First, according to GSO, GAO bid protests are frequently successful in identifying a problem resulting in corrective action by the agency. The data show that the majority of bid protests are valid.
▶ 0:32:51If we undermine this process, we may get get worse outcomes from our agencies and unfair practices can go unprotected, Second, the number of contracts actually challenged through bid protests is For example, less than 2% of DoD contracts are protested every year.
▶ 0:33:23That number appears to be decreasing in recent years. Uh it is fair to ask why that issue is a priority for reform in the face of other serious challenges.
▶ 0:33:41additional barriers to bringing a bid pro protest threatens to unfairly and disproportionately affect smaller businesses that have fewer financial These are very these are the very we should be incentivizing to work with the federal government.
▶ 0:34:08We should not be driving them away by uh their recourse in the event of an improper process. We hope that we can work together to look for ways to reduce the need to bid to the need for bid protests by improving the procurement bid itself.
▶ 0:34:36We should be encouraging agencies to take hard looks at the results of their bid protests to see where they went wrong and where they can do better next And we should look for patterns in bid protests as blueprints for legislative reforms that might be needed.
▶ 0:35:06Reports by the GAO and other independent researchers indicate that DoD does not collect the data necessary to analyze the impact of bid protests on DoD procurements.
▶ 0:35:26Uh, of course it also does not systematically analyze the outcome bid protests to identify areas of and its procurement process processes.
▶ 0:35:45We cannot solve a problem we don't fully I hope we can get more of that understanding today from our witnesses and continue to work together to find uh common sense solutions.
▶ 0:36:05I know my colleagues on this com sub on this on this subcommittee share my goal of an efficient and fair government procurement system. I hope we can continue to safeguard the bid process process as the important accountability mechanism that it is. Thank you and I yield back.
▶ 0:36:36Miss Norton, thank you very much not only for your comments but the expectation level that you have established on behalf of the minority that could be achieved today. And I want you to know that I wholeheartedly agree not only with your comments, but your desire for us to continue working together to see this issue in a way that will be in the best interest of not just the taxpayer, but the fairness that will be seen by the public of of the fairness
▶ 0:37:06behind the process. And I want to thank you very much. I'm now prepared to move to our witnesses. I'd like to introduce them if I could please. I met with all three of them uh and found found them all three to be not only uh professional young people but bringing expertise that I believe is important to the hearing First, Mr.
▶ 0:37:31Kenneth Patton is managing associate general counsel at the GAO, the Government Accounting Office, where he's responsible for heading and managing the attorneys and the staff who resolve bid processes filed at the government accounting office. Secondly, Mr. Christopher Yukans as is a research professor in government procurement law at George Washington University Law School.
▶ 0:38:01He teaches on contract formations, bid protest and other issues in pub public procurement. Lastly, Mr. Zachary Prince is a partner at Hughes Haynes and Boone which is a law firm. His practice encompasses all areas of government contract law and he counsels domestic and international clients on a wide range of issues including bid protest.
▶ 0:38:28So I want to thank each of you for being here today and would ask that each of you please rise for the purpose of me administering the oath of office, the oath to witnesses pursuant to government uh reform uh subcommittee committee rule 9G. The witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
▶ 0:38:59So help you, God. Uh let the record show that the witnesses each answered in the affirmative. Thank you very much. You may take your seat. Uh we will now move to recognize our witnesses for the purpose of making an opening statement. I appreciate each of you being here and let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written testimony and that will appear in full in the hearing record.
▶ 0:39:24Uh I would also ask that you recognize that I had a conversation with each of you yesterday and we intend to treat you all fairly on the description of the five minutes or the time that we yielded you. Each of you are witnesses that have are coming before this subcommittee and I am not going to strictly hold you to five minutes. I am going to hold you to the points that you would wish to make.
▶ 0:39:51Your advice to this subcommittee and the importance of us making sure that we have an opportunity to ask questions back. You will see that there will be members who come and go, but we're going to move forward. As a reminder, please press the button on your microphone in front of you when it's time for you to speak so the members can hear you.
▶ 0:40:13And when you begin to speak, the light in front of you will move through the colors uh green and then yellow and then to red. But I would encourage you to please make sure that the things which you would wish to discuss with this subcommittee are adequately performed. I now recognize the distinguished gentleman, Mr. Patton, for his opening Gentleman's recognized.
▶ 0:40:39Chairman Sessions, ranking member infume, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity today to talk about bid protests and possible bid protest reform. The competition and contracting act of 1984 or Sika establishes that GAO is to provide for the inexpensive and expeditious resolution of protest. Consistent with this authority, GAO resolves more than 1,000 protests every year, all within 100 calendar days.
▶ 0:41:10However, over the last 10 years, the number of protests filed at GA has steadily declined by And the number of protests filed at DoD has declined by an even greater proportion by 48%.
▶ 0:41:25Notwithstanding that decline, the data from our annual BIP protest reports reflects that the effectiveness rate, that is the rate at which protesters receive some form of relief, either as a result of GL sustaining a protest or an agency taking corrective action has remained relatively stable at 50%.
▶ 0:41:47Recently, section 885 of the National Defense Authorization Act for fiscal year 2025 included a provision for GAO to propose various possible reforms to the protest process as well as to create benchmarks of the costs of bid protests.
▶ 0:42:05In this regard, while the benefits of the protest system in promoting accountability and integrity in federal procurements are important, those benefits must be balanced against the public's interest in allowing the government to efficiently acquire the goods and services necessary to discharge their obligations. Section 885 included three provisions.
▶ 0:42:30First, GAO was to consider enhanced pleading standards that protesters must meet before receiving access to administrative records of DoD Our regulations currently provide a robust pleading standard and protests that do not meet this standard are dismissed typically early in the process and prior to receiving access to agency records.
▶ 0:42:55While our current pleading standard allows us to dismiss legally insufficient protests early in the process, we propose to enhance our standard to make it clearer that protest allegations must be credible and supported by evidence. Second, section 885 included a provision for GIO to develop benchmarks of the cost to DoD of resolving protest and the lost profits of the awardee during dependency of a protest.
▶ 0:43:25However, during the preparation of our proposal, we found that sufficient data was unavailable concerning DoD's protest costs and loss profit rates to calculate reliable benchmarks. For example, DoD does not track or record the cost of bid protests because it is not statutoily required to do so.
▶ 0:43:46Additionally, DoD expressed the view that given the low number of protests of DoD procurements, the cost of tracking such data would outweigh the benefits. Third, section 885 provi required GAO to propose a process for an unsuccessful protester to pay the government's protest related costs and contract awardes lost profits.
▶ 0:44:13Without sufficient data, however, it was not possible to create the benchmarks envisioned by section 885. GAO remains neutral on creating a fee shifting process. We believe that existing authorities are sufficient to efficiently resolve and limit the adverse impacts of protests filed without a substantial or legal factual basis. Consistent with the requirements of section 885.
▶ 0:44:39However, we discuss two potential processes and practical and policy implications for congressional First, Congress might consider a focused statutory requirement for DoD to include a contract provision that would permit DoD to recoup or otherwise withhold profit or fee from an where an incumbent contractor filed a protest that is dismissed as legally or factually Second,
▶ 0:45:10Congress might consider authorizing GAO to require a protester to reimburse DoD for the costs incurred in handling the protest as well as any lost profits incurred by the awardee whose contract was stayed during dependency of a protest. The latter process would constitute a significant departure from GIO's current statutory authorities and would require significant structural changes to Sika and GIO's other statutory authorities.
▶ 0:45:39Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member Infume, and members of the subcommittee, this completes my prepared statement. I would be pleased to respond to any questions that you may have. Mr. Prattton, thank you very much. Your uh detailed conversation with us was about 5 minutes and 10 seconds. Uh job well done. Uh I would now move to recognize Professor Yukans for his opening statement. Mr. Professor, you're
▶ 0:46:11If you could please uh push that button that's right in front of you.
▶ 0:46:16Thank you, sir.
▶ 0:46:17Thank you, sir.
▶ 0:46:18Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member Mumi, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today on bid protest reform. My name is Christopher Yukens, and I serve as the Lind David research professor in the government procurement law program at the George Washington University Law School. Our program was launched by professors Ralph Nash and John Sabin in the early 1960s and is one of the leading programs of its kind in the world.
▶ 0:46:41Although I'm testifying today in my personal capacity, I'm proud to note that all of us testifying before you today are connected with our program at GW Law School. Ken Patton is a member of our board of adviserss and Zachary Prince teaches on negotiations in the program. I've spent over three decades working on bid protest as an academic and as a lawyer in federal, state, and local forums. I represented the United States in bid protest and appeals as a lawyer in the US Department of Justice.
▶ 0:47:08I worked on several hundred protests as a private lawyer and as a testifying expert. I helped author reports for the Administrative Conference of the United States and the Defense Department at the request of Congress on bid protest reform. Finally, I serve as the academic adviser to the American Bar Association's initiative to revamp the model procurement code, which is used by state and local governments across our nation. And that reform of the model procurement code will almost certainly lead to improvements to bid protests at the state and local levels here in the United States.
▶ 0:47:37The good news is that bid protests in the US government are healthy and well established. Indeed, they're a model for the world. And I just note, Mr. chairman that the that our procurement system our procurement law system started in the revolutionary war. It's exactly 250 years old. It's a it's a it's a real it's a mark of success of our nation and we have a much longer established procurement system than any other country in the world that I'm aware of.
▶ 0:48:02The structure of our bid protest system which with protests before the agencies and independent agencies such as GAO and the courts is seen in governments around the world. American companies working abroad regularly rely on other countries bid protest systems which in many ways track the US model to ensure they're treated fairly by other governments. That may turn out to be very important for members of the subkinn.
▶ 0:48:25The European Union has talked about launching a retaliatory weapon and ongoing in the ongoing tariff discussions and that will specifically focus on public procurement. So the strength and fairness of bid protest systems on both sides of the Atlantic will be very very important if that happens. Many international trade agreements and conventions with the which the United States has joined such as the World Trade Organization's government procurement agreement and the UN convention against corruption specifically call for effective bid protest systems.
▶ 0:48:54Bid protests have proven effective nationally and internationally because they allow those with the best information on procurement failures, typically other biders, to bring procurement failures to light. Those protesting those protesting biders in essence serve as whistleblowers on fraud, waste and corruption. Impairing protests in essence discouraging those whistleblowers would undermine bid protest core goals which are one to reinforce confidence in the competitive process and two to identify management failures in the procurement systems.
▶ 0:49:25Bid protests can be flash points of contention between agencies and industry and have long been the focus of reform efforts. Those reform efforts are often quite useful. Sometimes though they could have serious and negative unintended consequences. In my written testimony, I I've addressed several of the current proposals. The first is the value of two bite protests that may be heard both by GAO and the courts. I and I mentioned for members of the subcommittee. I mentioned that I' I've done hundreds of protests.
▶ 0:49:51I've only had two two bite protests or two where that came up whether or not we should go from GAO onto the court of federal claims. One of them was for for tactical and legal reasons. It was appropriate to abandon the GAO protest and go to the court. The other time it occurred actually was we were in a GAO protest. We lost the GAO protest, but something smelled funny. Something smelled funny. But as a lawyer, you get that instinct. This smells weird. But we didn't.
▶ 0:50:18We were thinking about whether or not to go to the court because you get a more complete record at the court. But in the meantime, this company, the the opposing company, which was one of the leading companies in the United States, was raided by the FBI because in fact there was something corrupt going on. So the the two bite protests can be very important depending on tactical circumstance tactical circumstances, but also just when there's basic issues of whether or not enough of the record has been produced at the GAO process.
▶ 0:50:45I also addressed in the written testimony whether incumbent contractors challenging new contracts are really a problem in the procurement system and if so whether GAO and the courts already have the tools necessary to address that problem. Just just note for the subcommittee that you're going to hear a lot of statistics on where we are in bid protests. That could change dramatically in the next few years with artificial intelligence. It's possible that we could have an explosion in the number of bid protests. Also, there was an in Sweden.
▶ 0:51:12In Sweden, you can actually buy insurance as an as a company. You can buy insurance for bid protests. In the companies in Sweden bring many more bid protests because the insurance companies pay for them there. So, with that with a possible explosion bid protest, any reforms have to accommodate a system with many more bid protests going through. That's that just could be a a reality coming down the road.
▶ 0:51:36In my written in my written statement, I I discussed whether meritless protest um truly clogged the system given the high standards for proof imposed by GO and the courts. I suggest that protesting companies should not be required to post bonds as that would only further burden the system and so discourage whistleblowing by protesters. Um the the bond requirement is something that's existed for um a number of years in the United Kingdom. And this there when you bring a bid protest in the United Kingdom, you have to oftentimes post a very high bond.
▶ 0:52:06Many people view that as a as a serious barrier to to bid protest, rendering the entire system ineffective. Arguably, I suggest that protests can and should be put on more rigorous timets. As Mr. Chairman, you referred to both at the agencies and the courts. I also speak to promising potential reforms and expanded debriefings for losing biders, which would help reduce protests in the civilian agencies.
▶ 0:52:30the the as we've discussed um I for me as a as a lawyer the epiphany was I worked on with a with a major major one of the top five um defense contractors I worked on a billion-dollar task order and we we reviewed a thorough 100page plus debriefing from the defense department agency involved it was a billion dollar task order as I said and the the company although we told the company they had clear grounds for
▶ 0:53:00protest. They could win on a protest at GAO. The company decided not to protest its loss on a billion-dollar task order because they had a complete statement, a 100page statement of why the agency had reached this decision. And they said, you know what, we disagree with this, but we're not going to protest. And part of that was because with the extended expanded debriefing, the managers on the procurement were able to turn to their senior managers and explain what happened because they had the documentation.
▶ 0:53:28So what all three of us will be talking about today, one of the key reforms is taking that reform, taking those expanded debriefings and extending them not just from the defense department but to the civilian agencies as well. I'm also going to be talking about u I also spoke in my written testimony about agent bid protests.
▶ 0:53:45I've written a couple reports on that as I mentioned and agents over bid protests are really not used now to any extent and they would be a good and efficient way of moving forward with the system making it possible for agencies to handle protests themselves. With that, Mr. Chairman, mindful of my time, I'd like to address I'd be glad to address any questions the subcommittee may have. Thank you, sir. Professor Yukans, thank you very much uh and for taking me up on explaining the the things which you believe would be important for this subcommittee to hear. Thank you very much.
▶ 0:54:16Next, we'll move to Mr. Prince. Mr. Prince, uh, happy birthday. Gentleman's recognized.
▶ 0:54:24Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, ranking member, members of the subcommittee, thank you for having me today to speak on this important issue of bid protest reform. As the chairman mentioned at the outset, the United States government spends roughly $750 billion dollars a year on government contracts as threearters of a trillion dollars annually. We must have a way to ensure integrity, transparency, and fairness in how the rules of the game are established and enforced.
▶ 0:54:54The way we do that is by empowering interested parties to challenge governmental decisions before an impartial reviewing board that provides the critical oversight to keep the system honest. It allows small businesses and new market participants confidence that they are on an even playing field with the large experienced government contractors.
▶ 0:55:14A bid protest is a way for these companies to ensure they're given a fair shake and that the government has fully considered novel or commercial solutions to its And this may be part of why small businesses in fact file most protests. The system can be frustrating. There's no doubt about it. There's nothing as annoying for an acquisition professional in the government as having their decision second guessed. Completely get that.
▶ 0:55:39For a company that's awarded a a government contract, being told they need to wait and can't do anything while a competitor lodges what they believe is arguably a meritless uh dispute is of course frustrating as well. But despite the perception, protests are infrequent and effective and they're growing less frequent and more effective as time goes on. Only a minuscule fraction of contracts are protested.
▶ 0:56:07Uh the Rand report in 2017 said that that was a third of a percent of DoD awards. Um it might be closer to 1% depending on how you calculate it, but we're still talking about a really small amount of government contracts. And in fact, most GAO protests over 50% are effective.
▶ 0:56:26In other words, in more than half of protests, there's enough of a perception of a significant error that GAO either rules in favor of the protester or recommends to the agency that they take action in favor of the protester or the agency takes the opportunity to do so itself. There are undoubtedly abuses of the system, but the data suggests that those abuses are rare and remedies are already built into the system. GAO can and has in rare instances blocked protesters from filing new protests.
▶ 0:56:56The court can and has imposed sanctions at the court of federal claims. Bonds at the court are already available upon request. And if the agency has a compelling reason to proceed regardless of the protest, it can and will go ahead with contract award and performance regardless of the protest having been filed. It just has to document it and justify it. At bottom, protests are already expensive.
▶ 0:57:22For somebody to file a protest at GAO, it typically costs well in excess of $100,000 to court federal claims. That can be doubled the the that figure. Contracts contractors understand the frustrations with the system. They understand the costs are involved. They understand there's a risk of irritating their customers. And they take the decision to protest very seriously. And in my experience, quite rarely. And the data bears this out.
▶ 0:57:51Given the critical role that protests have in ensuring public funds are spent fairly and small businesses and new market participants have an opportunity to participate meaningfully, Congress should expand the protest remedy and cut off meaningless disputes about venue.
▶ 0:58:08um specifically by addressing, as I note in my written testimony, task order protests, extending the jurisdiction of the court of federal claims and explicitly recognizing jurisdiction for protests involving other transaction authorities uh which are a wonderful mechanism for government advancement of important goals, but uh can go uh involve billions of dollars annually and and could go unover without explicit Congress should also expand the enhanced debriefing requirements.
▶ 0:58:39DoD adopted this about a decade ago for certain procurements. It's been remarkably effective at stopping protests uh by showing that an agency meaningfully considered the offers and complied with its rules. showing disappointed offerers that the agency took their uh took their offer seriously, followed the rules, even if the offerers would disagree with the way the agency did that stops protests because it shows that the protests maybe are not likely to prevail.
▶ 0:59:09Throwing good money after bad contractors are savvy to that issue. This has been effective at DoD. It should be extended to civilian agencies as well. The protest system has issues, but it is the best way that we know at the moment to oversee the procurement system meaningfully and any changes need to be considered very carefully for risk of unforeseen consequences such as raising barriers for small businesses and preventing meaningful issues from being raised and addressed. This concludes my prepared statement. I'm glad to answer any questions.
▶ 0:59:39Mr. Prince, thank you very much. All three of you have uh provided this subcommittee with not only professional advice, but each of you are appreciated for being here. We now move to the uh to the member questions. I'd like to recognize distinguished gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Burch. You're recognized for five minutes. Sir,
▶ 1:00:00when you said distinguished gentleman, Mr. Chairman, I wasn't sure who you were talking about, but um I appreciate in my six years of Congress, I believe this is the first time I've ever gotten to go first. Um, I thought maybe some of my Democrat friends were right. The rapture did come and I was left behind, but I see there's some more folks out there that think like I do. So, I think we're okay. Um, Mr. Prince, do you think it'd be beneficial for the uh government accountability office to be more transparent about the bid protest evaluation process for businesses?
▶ 1:00:33I I do. Well, I mean, I think it would be very helpful for GAO to continue its um practice of publishing dismissal decisions, which it's done more of. Uh there's been a lot of talk in the bar about whether they should also allow access to the public to the docket, not just the listing of filings, but the redacted pleadings.
▶ 1:00:53I do think that would be helpful just to understand uh what arguments have been successful, how they've been presented, and that would give agencies a better insight into how to fix things in the front end.
▶ 1:01:04Don't you think that the um the people for good reason think this town's c is crooked as a dog's leg? Literally, and you know, every time we attempt to brush something aside, it just seems to create more controversy and then we have to go back and correct it. I just transparency has never really been a problem with me and I and I appreciate that answer, sir. Um, Mr. Yukan, did I say that name right? Yukon or Yukan? How do you say
▶ 1:01:31Yukan, sir.
▶ 1:01:31Okay. Well, Burchett, they massacre my name every day of the week, so we're good. Are there any current laws or regulations in the bid protest process that place unfair burdens on these businesses and stifle economic prosperity? I see this a lot with with the smaller folks. when I was county mayor. The big boys could roll in with their attorneys and you know somebody out there just hustling maybe a small minority company uh has a lot of difficulty with this thing and I and I was very concerned about that. Could you address that sir?
▶ 1:02:03Yes sir. It actually ironically is at the other end of the spectrum and and as the chairman mentioned there there's a need to align with what the Trump administration is doing. Um the Trump administration and uh Senator Wicker, Chairman Wicker on the on the Senate side are clearly, sir, going to be using other transactions more. Mr. Prince alluded to there's other transactions or it's is an oddly named thing, but it basically means starting from scratch. You throw the whole procurement system out the window and you write from scratch. Um that creates a lot of problems.
▶ 1:02:33Um for we teach we teach contracting officers about a third of my students are contracting mid-level contracting officers. they have no idea how to negotiate these things they're starting whereas their their private counterparts really do. So in many ways the irony here is it's not the small business it's it's the government that's at the disadvantage in other transactions for the reasons you talked about about public credibility and legitimacy very important as Mr. Prince said to have as much transparency and accountability as possible in other transactions. They're a good idea.
▶ 1:03:03Other transactions are good idea because they allow private capital to come in much more aggressively, much more successfully than in the traditional procurement process. So other transactions good idea, but we have to have transparency. We have to have accountability. Thank you.
▶ 1:03:16All right. Finally, Mr. patent. Uh how often do contractors pull their cases from the uh government accounting office and file new cases with the US federal uh court of federal claims? And that's probably just give me an estimate. I just I know you can't just say
▶ 1:03:34Actually, unfortunately, you're right. We can't say specifically because we don't actually have the insight into the data about what cases go from GAO to the court. But what I can say is typically the court of federal claims has anywhere from 200 to 140 cases a year. Probably about half of those may have had some prior life at GIO.
▶ 1:03:57Do you have any idea what the percentage of bid protest or meritless? Just off the top of your head, give me a sustain rate indicates 16% we sustain. We have an effectiveness rate of 50% which means that there's something wrong in the procurement. So the agency takes it back for those decisions that go to a merit decision.
▶ 1:04:29opposite of the 16%, those that we deny probably don't contain a winning case or the protester was not able to demonstrate a violation of law and regulation that would have had an impact on the award.
▶ 1:04:44Okay, real quickly, rapid fire, I'm about out of time. Which legislative proposals would be the most beneficial for Congress to implement to reform the bid process, bid protest process? Mr.
▶ 1:04:56I would say get the data that you need to identify the correct problem because right now there's no real
▶ 1:05:02out of time. Mr. Prince,
▶ 1:05:05I I think the enhanced debriefing extend that out to civilian agencies.
▶ 1:05:10Absolutely concur. Enhanced debriefing.
▶ 1:05:12Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As usual, this is not the sexiest committee, but it's the one that gets down to work. I appreciate you. Present company excluded, of course. You're down there wearing something from the Jim Jordan collection. I see. No, no jacket. So, you're up on the sexy chart now, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much for this
▶ 1:05:29Mr. Burchetta, thank you very much. I I appreciate being somewhere in the list and uh I appreciate your help.
▶ 1:05:37We've now moved to distinguished gentleman, my dear friend from Maryland, the ranking member, Mr. Infume. The gentleman's recognized.
▶ 1:05:45Yes, sir.
▶ 1:05:46Thank you. Right on. I'm over it. Answer. I'm going to answer my creator one day. It ain't going to be none of these jug heads. Go get him, brother.
▶ 1:05:55Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Uh, I want to thank Mr. Burchett also for sharing some important information and for his earlier action in the subcommittee today. Um, and I mean that sincerely. Thank you. U, Mr.
▶ 1:06:09Chairman, I um be remiss if I did not at least also thank the gentlewoman from the District of Columbia, Miss Norton, for opening up uh for this side of the aisle and for her everpresent work on this committee, and thank you, sir, for calling this hearing. Um I want to just get a little bit of clarity more than anything else. I've gone through much of your written testimony. Mr. Patton, I think I want to start with you so that I'm clear.
▶ 1:06:38Did I hear you say that if a bid protest fails that the D or D could or should seek compensation and if that were not the case perhaps GAO should do that? I think what we at GAO said with regard to section 885 is that DoD does not collect data to determine what the cost to DoD would be to recoup that amount.
▶ 1:07:05nor do they collect data from the awardee to determine what lost profits would be. There could be a lot of administrative and legal concerns or issues to to making a loser pay.
▶ 1:07:17Why don't they collect the data?
▶ 1:07:20That's a good question. From their perspective, they're not statutoily required to do so. And in their view, the benefit of collecting the data, excuse me, the harm, the effort outweighs the benefit to collecting that data. They don't see a need since protest at DoD are trending downward.
▶ 1:07:38Well, one thing that's trending at DoD is that they failed seven straight audits year after year after year and uh this committee continues to point that out. So, if in this case they don't see it in their interest or they don't have statutory authority to do so, uh I just think they need to look at the handwriting on the wall. Things are pretty much going south with respect to DoD. Um, and what about the GAO's role in this?
▶ 1:08:05Do you see that if they're not doing it because they don't have statutory authority that you could, should, or are doing it? GAO probably couldn't do it because access to contractor data like that would require some mechanism to look at it to require the contractors to provide it. They don't currently do so. So, it would be a challenge for GO to do it.
▶ 1:08:26Then what would you suggest be put in place for them to at least provide GAO with that additional information? Initially, I think that the Department of Defense would need to collect the data and then as you may know that the Department of Defense's financial systems are on GIO's high risk list because they have an inability to manage their financial financial system. So, there could be some additional financial challenges for DoD and trying to do accomplish that.
▶ 1:08:51Yeah, they're just running things terrible at that agency. And yet this Congress just voted a 13% increase to what is already the largest slice of our budget and we can't even get a clean audit and they continue to be on the watch list. Um thank you very much Mr. Prince. You I think suggested that or said I should say 50% of the bid protests that GAO looks at they get dismissed. Is that right?
▶ 1:09:22No, it's that the 50% are deemed effective. So
▶ 1:09:25are deemed effective or ineffective?
▶ 1:09:28Effective. Okay.
▶ 1:09:30So in other words, in 50% of cases, either it goes to a decision from GAO ruling in favor or recommending the agency take action in favor or the agency voluntarily takes corrective
▶ 1:09:43And what happens to all the others? They just go away.
▶ 1:09:45Uh they either lose. I mean, they they can go to a decision to lose or sometimes you get into the record. I've had this experience personally and you see there's nothing there and you pull it because it's just not worth throwing more money after good money after bad.
▶ 1:09:59Now, I got a sense from you that you thought that bid protests are not out of control and are not ballooning. Is that
▶ 1:10:07That's correct.
▶ 1:10:08So, how would you reconcile that with Mr. Yncan's statement that we ought to be on the lookout for what's happening with artificial intelligence? Mr. Yncan, I think you said there will be an explosion in bid protest if I'm correcting or or correctly uh referencing what your testimony is. Is that correct?
▶ 1:10:26Yeah, there could be an explosion with artificial intelligence or the way that people fund bid protest changes. What I was getting at, sir, was that if there it's important that any solution that Congress brings to the to to this process be one that doesn't create clunky solutions because if we have a system that's expanding very rapidly and we have a clunky things built into it with the system could collapse.
▶ 1:10:51So on another part of that, you do support expanding debriefings. Is that
▶ 1:10:58Yes sir. Absolutely. It's a way, it's a very cheap and effective way. And again, with artificial intelligence, it becomes easier and easier to redact the documents. If you have a 100page document, very quickly, artificial intelligence can pick out what's confidential and then the document can be produced to the biders.
▶ 1:11:12And Mr. Prince, you also support expanding the debriefings.
▶ 1:11:16I do.
▶ 1:11:17Okay. Mr. Chairman, I have no more questions. Thank you.
▶ 1:11:21Thank you very much. Uh, we now move to distinguished gentleman from Texas, the gentleman, Mr. feels recognized for 5
▶ 1:11:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you uh to the witnesses for being here and taking the time. Um, Mr. Patton, I'd like to start uh with a few questions uh for you. My understanding is that GAO serves as an arbiter of bid protest challenges, but the decisions are non-binding. Is that correct?
▶ 1:11:48Yes, sir. That is correct. What what's the rationale for contractors to use the GAO as a venue for bid protests given that they're non-binding?
▶ 1:11:58One of the benefits of the GAO bid protest system is that if you file within certain time frames, you get what's called an automatic stay of performance, meaning that the agency can't move forward with awarding or performing the contract. That allows GA time to administer and resolve the protest. That's one of the chief benefits of filing at GAO.
▶ 1:12:17Got it. Do you think the GAO would like those uh to be binding those decisions?
▶ 1:12:23I think GAO recognizes that there are some true separation of powers issues. Since GAO is a legislative branch agency, we don't want to be perceived as overstepping our lane
▶ 1:12:34right. Do you think it would change the landscape if if they were? I think there would be significant questions that would need to be resolved if GAO were given authority or asked to do things that might be perceived to be an executive function.
▶ 1:12:48Got it. And can you provide a couple of examples of uh some more egregious examples of companies bid protesting?
▶ 1:12:57In in what context? We have protests where we have sustained protests. We have protests where we have denied. There have been some instances, as I think alluded to before, we did have a vexious protester who filed numerous what we might consider meritless protests and we debarred that individual company from filing protest at GAO.
▶ 1:13:18Do you see that happen often?
▶ 1:13:20Not at all. Actually, that was an anomaly. And since 2018 when we have implemented our electronic protest docketing system with an intended filing fee, we've seen a drop in protests and a drop in repeat filers. And that that's what I was about to ask you.
▶ 1:13:35It seems like the current process has the potential to create delays cuz contractors would file with the GAO first, withdraw their case when they anticipate losing, and then subsequently initiate a new case with the the court of federal claims. And you're saying that doesn't happen often. Is that
▶ 1:13:53Don't have the data to to answer that question, but what I can say that is the court of federal claims has around 200 or so cases. So if that that is happening, it's happening in a very very small number of cases.
▶ 1:14:04I got it. Do you think that this process should be reformed in any in any way?
▶ 1:14:09I think that if there are legitimate questions that people have about its efficacy, those ought to be explored and to the extent that there are concerns, they should be addressed. But I do think that you we do need the data to support whatever concerns might be identified. B
▶ 1:14:24based on your experience, what changes would you like to see?
▶ 1:14:29Right now, we do think that the system is operating as intended. I think that we have not seen any need to initiate any reforms. That doesn't mean that we can't do so if and some are in fact
▶ 1:14:43Got it. Thank you, Mr. Patton. And I'd yield the remainder of my time to the
▶ 1:14:49Thank you uh very much. Uh the gentleman now has yielded back his time. Uh I would like to amplify if I can in the remaining minute and 30 seconds the admiration that I have for each of you all three of you to come and engage this There are always public comments. There are always public perceptions about bids, processes, fairness, the processes involved in that.
▶ 1:15:20And I have found that in speaking to each of you three who are deeply involved in this process that you were providing this subcommittee with your feedback. Notwithstanding there are members who have offered some bit of a challenge to that and sustained not only where we are but what we're attempting to do.
▶ 1:15:43I will speak to it on my five minutes, but I wanted to use these 42 seconds remaining to let you know that I see little difference between you when you all talk about the system except to say that you want it to remain fair. You want it to remain something that is a part of a public discussion.
▶ 1:16:09you are open not just to feedback but that you find that the openness by each of the agencies as they go about their business is properly performed by GAO that GAO has a part in that process and that outside council or these companies have knowledge and I want to thank you and I think that Mr.
▶ 1:16:33Gil started to get at that by asking the question, well, do you need any changes? And I think that what really happened is Mr. Patton clearly said, there are perceptions, there are ideas out there, but in their review, please make sure you address those before you go change anything. And uh I want to thank the distinguished gentleman from Texas.
▶ 1:16:58We now yield back the time and move to the gentleoman from Washington DC for her five minutes. Gentle woman is
▶ 1:17:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, the government should get the best value for taxpayers when contracting with businesses for goods and services. To do so, it is important that government officers have an experienced and qualified workforce that knows how to investigate our complex system of procurement laws and regulations.
▶ 1:17:37Unfortunately, this administration has instead seen fit to gut the federal workforce and its experienced workers. SEC Secretary Hedge has announced plans to reduce uh the Department of Defense personnel by tens of thousands, threatening to undermine institutional knowledge among defense department procurement professionals.
▶ 1:18:08As a result, this administration's compricious and cruel policies uh uh of their uh cruel policies. We are losing valuable expertise every day.
▶ 1:18:27These cuts are deliberately undermining government efficiencies ability to achieve their missions including complex Uh Mr. Prince, uh in your experience, how important is it for agency procurement officials to have the right experience and training? Congresswoman, it is absolutely pivotal.
▶ 1:18:56In order to have any meaningful procurement changes that have been proposed in a broader sense to have an effective acquisition system, we need well-trained acquisition workforce
▶ 1:19:08Thank you, Mr. Prince. Uh, another question for you. How do you expect the cuts we are seeing in the federal to impact agency procurements and big bid process protests? It remains to be seen. Um I would not be surprised if it starts causing delays in certain agencies. I know it's already causing delays in contract awards in some agencies.
▶ 1:19:39uh and that this may have a trickle effect into an increased number of bid protests. The data next year I think will be very interesting to
▶ 1:19:48It is clear that this administration is not making the procurement system more efficient and transparent. In fact, it is doing the opposite. Congress must do everything we can to protect the capacity of our federal workers as well as the integrity of the procurement process. And I yield back.
▶ 1:20:11Gentlewoman yields back her time. Thank you very much. We now move to the distinguished gentleoman, Dr. Fox. Dr. Fox, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:20:21Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here. This is a question for each of the witnesses and I do have several questions so I'll ask you to be as succinct as possible. Under current law, bid protests may be filed in one of three venues. The GAO, the contracting agency itself or the US Court of Federal Claims, COFC. However, the data shows that most protests are filed with the GAO or an agency but not with the COFC.
▶ 1:20:51Why is this the case and what are the implications of this quote venue shopping? We'll start here. Mr. Pan,
▶ 1:21:03we don't actually have data to to determine why individuals shop or move between forums. And as I mentioned earlier, one of the benefits of the GAO system is that you get an automatic stay of contract performance. That is an easy way to stop. If you go to the court, you may have to litigate that.
▶ 1:21:22Okay, Mr. Prince.
▶ 1:21:24Yeah, the the one advantage of GAO is the agency is still in charge of the way the protest proceeds. So, if there's corrective action to be taken, they might take it quicker. Uh, but the record also is more truncated. So, you might just go to the court if you think you're going to get peacemeal record and you really need something bigger.
▶ 1:21:44Ma'am, the Mr. Prince alluded to this before, but in response to the study that GAO is doing under section 885 of the Defense Authorization Act, GAO asked the bar how much it cost to um for an awardee to defend a protest. And Mr. BR alluded to it's the the the data. It's very gross. It's very high level. It's not enormously precise, but it was about $100,000 for GAO and about $200,000 for the court of federal claims.
▶ 1:22:12So a contractor is facing twice as many costs if they decide to go to the court of federal claims. And that's what one of the major reasons that they decide to go to GAO instead.
▶ 1:22:21Okay. Um I understand the lack of of data, but you just mentioned the cost. Is there any data to tell us whether there's a more favorable outcome at one uh one of those um places than the the the best outcome this there's been academic studies on this ma'am that the best outcome for a it's actually not to win a protest because if
▶ 1:22:51you win a protest you actually you at that point the agency is so angry at you that you're not likely to win the contract the best outcome is to come in hard and strong at GAO and get corrective action taken by the agency that statistically is the that's the optimal outcome
▶ 1:23:07okay I'm going to submit my next question uh for the record. Mr. Prince, what information would be helpful for contractors, particularly small businesses, to understand the merits of a potential bid protest?
▶ 1:23:23So, I I think the most effective thing to do would be to provide a a unredacted source selection document. That is a document providing to outside counsel or to in-house counsel under protective order or non-disclosure agreement clear information on the deliberative process. Uh transparency is always good.
▶ 1:23:44Uh in your opinion federal government were to provide additional information to bid protesters such as enhanced debriefs would the number of frivolous bid protests decrease?
▶ 1:23:55I think generally yes. And I think that's part of why it's gone down over the last decade. And again, uh, I'll I'll ask this question of all three of you. If we don't have time, then I'll ask you submit your answers for the record. What are your suggestions for big bid protest reforms that can reduce cost and frivolous protest? And how can these reforms ensure that legitimate protests are allowed to proceed? Mr. dependent.
▶ 1:24:23I would say that the agencies need to collect data and determine whether or not they think a protest is meritless or not and provide that data to the
▶ 1:24:33Mr. Prince,
▶ 1:24:34I think greater access to information at the outset uh to potential protesters
▶ 1:24:41and the I agree in terms of enhanced briefings. One of the important things to understand me is that ours is a very concentrated system. We have a concentrated defense department, very concentrated market. the bar. There's only in Hungary, they have 2,000 procurement lawyers. In the United States, the federal level, we only have about 500. It's not because the Hungarians are smarter. It's because we work as a very tight community and people act very responsibly as a result.
▶ 1:25:06So, if we had more information through debriefings, responsible, well-trained lawyers will be working with responsible, well-trained contractors, and they'll decide not to protest.
▶ 1:25:16Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you very much. The uh distinguished gentleoman, Dr. Fox, yields back her time. I would now yield myself such time as I may consume. I want to thank each of you for being here today. I found this process that I had to go through as a subcommittee chairman most informative because I think the gentleman, Mr.
▶ 1:25:40Patner alluded to conversations uh thinking that people have perceptions that they may uh even express without uh enough information to satisfy a uh balanced answer. And I have attempted with each of you to ask questions that enabled you, allowed you and provided you a chance to respond back.
▶ 1:26:05And each time I have found that all three of you provided a balanced answer back that said the system understands this. The system takes this into account and the system is flexible enough to be able to produce what might be a balanced answer. And I want you to know that the American people have a lot to learn about what you have provided me today.
▶ 1:26:33I think that the important part that I have learned out of this or perhaps in my interaction with you because I talked to all three of you about it is the ability to make sure that we teach to new a to agencies their and that you have all told me that based upon the effectiveness of an agency to guide those people through a process not only how it will happen But what those
▶ 1:27:03expectations are produces a better result where even if a person does not win a bid process they understood more about the facts and factors related to that. Secondly in discussing at least I think with Mr.
▶ 1:27:19Prince I began perhaps it was you professor gave me a feeling to understand that there is an open ability to add a protest in when they learned back as a result of the announcement feedback from the agencies about how decisionmaking took place and I felt like that that was one of the more important aspects that I learned that it's not just one and
▶ 1:27:49done but actually there's some period of time where both sides or three sides that could consider the answer that happened and if some extraneous information appeared, it could be considered. And I thought that that was uh very important because an agency may render a decision about their decision that maybe was or was not factually understood by both sides.
▶ 1:28:17And so I found that the process that GAO was following to be not only fair, but I found it, as has been alluded to here, a closed group of people or a group of people that were smaller in size that understood the rules. It was not a surprise and they knew what was available to them to fight, to brief, and to provide feedback on a fair and timely basis.
▶ 1:28:46So I really have learned a lot from this. I think I can defend as the subcommittee chairman for government operations. I think I can fairly say that both sides, three sides, whoever is making the the the bid will be deal dealt with fairly.
▶ 1:29:04There is a review process that would be done by experts who as we might say from Miss Norton would be accomplished on a fair basis and would be done in the best interest of not just the taxpayer but a process that would be well understood. So uh I want to thank each of you for being here. I want to recognize that uh each of you have taken your own personal time to appear before this subcommittee.
▶ 1:29:33you've done so in a distinguished fashion and I offer wholehearted uh support for you. Uh we have Mr. Frost is now here. You know what I started in on my closing statements. I would like to move back and to recognize seamless gentleman from Florida who was here earlier and I did not know was here. Gentleman's recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:29:57Oh, good. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thank you so much to our witnesses for being here. Um, you know, our witnesses have made the point that the bid protest process can help make the federal contracting process fair and transparent, which is obviously very important. Um, unfortunately, there's been a a large absence of fairness and transparency, especially with the current administration.
▶ 1:30:18And I I really want to focus in and to talk about what the absence of fairness and transparency would mean for the true funders and true clients of these contracts, which are our constituents and the American people. Uh, Professor Yukens, are there examples from outside the United States where businesses lack the ability to challenge government contracting
▶ 1:30:40Yes, sir. The the most profound example was in South Africa under Jacob Zuma when Jacob Zuma and the and the Gupta family were able to seize control of actually a small part of the overall procurement system in South Africa, but they delegitimized the entire young democracy in South Africa. As a result, a lot of what you see from President Ramaposa now in his response, his aggressive response against corruption is because of what they did, what Jacob Zuma and the Gupta family did in procurement.
▶ 1:31:08So whe when a procurement system collapses, it affects the entire
▶ 1:31:14What what has that meant for the results of those contracts and the people of those countries return on the Um what has meant is that that for South Africa for example is now revamping their procurement system dramatically.
▶ 1:31:27Um I think in our own country here as we're as we're moving forward I mean the uh it's it will be important for there to be as you say as much transparency as possible in order to keep so concrete example and something I know that's very important to you is the detention centers that are likely to be to be for that's the detention centers have been a classic example of private capital being used aggressively by the federal government to put facilities in place and if those if Those detention
▶ 1:31:57facilities are not procured using transparent processes that set standards as to what the detention facility should look like based on the contracts, then there could be very serious um across the government.
▶ 1:32:12Yeah, I'm really happy you brought this up because it's something I wanted to talk about. You know, about a week and a half ago, I did a tour of this what I would call an internment camp, but it's an immigrant detention center in the middle of the Everglades in the state of Florida. um being operated by the Florida Division, Division of Emergency Management, which is tasked with keeping our people safe during a hurricane.
▶ 1:32:34Um and they've they're spending about $450 million of the $500 million cap that they can spend to prepare for hurricanes on the detention center. So, hurricane comes up in the Gulf tomorrow, barreling towards Florida, they have to go back to the legislature and spend time doing that instead of taking care of the people of our state. But that's a whole other thing. I want to talk about the lack of transparency and fairness we're seeing in this because I don't want to see this exported across the country. Um the most recent example is this Everglades facility. Here's some examples.
▶ 1:33:04CDR Health, which has donated about $4 million to Republicans in Florida over and over half a million dollars to Florida Governor Ronda Santis a few months ago, won a $17.5 million contract for this specific facility.
▶ 1:33:20IRG Global, which has given $400,000 to Governor DeSantis in the GOP, including $10,000 to the Florida GOP just hours before they were awarded a $1.1 million contract for this immigrant detention center. They're running the camp operations, and they got another $5 million contract uh later uh in a few weeks after that.
▶ 1:33:42None of these businesses hired to build, staff, and run this immigrant detention facility have any prior experience with immigrant detention centers and no prior experience with anything in corrections facilities or anything around that. This is costing us 8 to 10 times what it usually costs to house a typical inmate. And I I would like to u enter into the record unanimous consent um this article from the Orlando Sentinel
▶ 1:34:11without objection.
▶ 1:34:12Yeah. It's Florida's disaster pipeline funnels millions to politically connected contractors. Look, I mean and I don't care what what party you're in. This is something we should all and I don't care what your politics are. This is something that should worry all of us when in the state of Florida, the money set aside to protect us from hurricanes is being used for a what I would say is a politically motivated promise in this mass deportation thing.
▶ 1:34:37But not even just that, but the money that's being awarded to these contractors is not being done in a transparent way. It's completely bypassing the typical um process you go to to have a contractor in the state of Florida. and then it's seemingly going to people who've donated millions and millions of dollars to the guy making the decisions. And so this is something that should be on the mind of all people across the country and every fidian especially as we talk about procurement and as we talk about um third party contractors. Thank you and I yield back.
▶ 1:35:08Gentleman yields back his time. Thank you very much. So without objection, all members have five legislative days within which to submit material and additional written questions for the witnesses which would be forwarded to you. If there is no further business, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Hearing those are good questions.