▶ 0:16:51a couple more back from vote.
▶ 0:22:18Subcommittee will come to order. Good afternoon everyone. I want to welcome all our members and witnesses to today's hearings. Uh thank you all for being here today for our first hearing since we celebrated the 90th anniversary of the Social Security Act on August 14th. I'd like to recognize and thank Chairman Smith and Congressman Kerry, the distinguished members of the subcommittees on Social Security and Work and Welfare.
▶ 0:22:45I'm going to skip one paragraph and I will come back to that. As chairman of the Social Security subcommittee, I made it a priority to strengthen and protect Social Security programs to better serve all Americans, including those with disabilities. This year it's been my pleasure to work closely with Social Security Commissioner Frank Bizignano who will who we hosted here in June. And just this past Friday, the commissioner came to Witchah where we held a productive meeting at the Social Security field office in my district.
▶ 0:23:14We discussed how Congress and the Social Security Administration can continue to deliver improved results to beneficiaries and recipients. And I'm confident this hearing will allow us to strengthen this partnership further. Today, there are 1.7 million Americans missing from the workforce. While at the same time, we have over 7 million open jobs. This is not just a statistic. It's a call to action. It's crucial that we use the talents of every American able to work that we can.
▶ 0:23:40One of the most valuable yet underutilized talent pools in our country is Americans with disabilities, especially given that many individuals with disabilities want to work. In fact, roughly 60% of the Social Security disability insurance, the DIA, and Social Security and and Supplemental Security Income, SSI recipients are interested in finding a job, gaining new skills, or advancing their careers. They are a critical resource we cannot ignore.
▶ 0:24:09I want to emphasize that this is not about removing folks from their benefits. It's about removing the barriers that hinder Americans with disabilities from renewing, strengthening, or forging a connection with the workforce. This hearing is about highlighting those barriers, understanding the complexities of the Social Security Administration return to work programs and exploring how we can improve transitions to work whenever possible. Today, we'll hear from individuals who have navigated these policies.
▶ 0:24:37The reality is that for those who want to work, the current system is complex and full of red tape. The existing DI and SSI programs are intended to support beneficiaries, but they are often so confusing that both individuals and employers need thirdparty experts to understand them. We also face the issue of outdated and slow administrative processes. For those who find work, the Social Security Administration's management of benefits can lead to overpayments. This isn't just a bureaucratic pro problem.
▶ 0:25:06It's a financial hardship that can discourage people from continuing to work. The system is confusing. Complexity, red tape, and the need to rely on third party experts just to navigate the rules is a massive obstacle for both individuals and employers. I hope that this hearing will set the stage for a vital discussion about reform. This isn't about altering the fundamental purposes of DI and SSI, but about modernizing our programs to work more effectively.
▶ 0:25:35We have an opportunity to remove government barriers, streamline communications, and modernize existing programs to help individual Americans who want to participate in the workforce. By doing so, we will not only improve individuals lives, but strengthen our economy as a Now, uh, take a a moment. Uh, this is a joint hearing between the Social Security subcommittee and the working welfare subcommittee.
▶ 0:25:59And I just want to note that I' I'd like to uh thank my colleague, Representative Danny Davis, uh, for your nearly three decades of service in Congress, your commitment to your constituents, and your tireless effort to address the issues facing our announcement. Your leadership and dedication will be most missed uh, on this committee uh, now that you've announced your retirement. So, uh, I look forward to your opening remarks when when, uh, we get to that point. So, right now, I'd like to yield to ranking member Mr. Larson for his opening
▶ 0:26:29Well, thank you, uh, Mr. Chairman. It's always uh good to be here together with our our colleagues and I want to stress from the uh outset that u uh what good people there are that sit on this uh on this committee and u on on both sides of the aisle. But um Mr. Chairman, I'd be less than honest if I didn't say that I was thoroughly frustrated uh that we're having a hearing.
▶ 0:26:58um whose intentions on uh look as though they're admirable, but we're having a hearing on Social Security disability at a time when we haven't enhanced Social Security since 1971 and Richard Nixon was president of the United States.
▶ 0:27:16Uh that is an abomination to the number one program that prevents seniors from going into poverty, that prevents children from going into poverty. And Congress hasn't since 1971 to enhance the program. I know you're going to say, "Well, wait a minute.
▶ 0:27:37Didn't Tip O'Neal and Ronald Reagan Ronald Reagan wanted to privatize it." like I think the attempts that are going on as we speak today. And there's no other way for me to describe what's transpiring when you have an administration, the current administration says they want to protect and help Social Security and they're doing so by laying off 7,000 employees,
▶ 0:28:08not improving any of the phone service where people with 10,000 baby boomers a day becoming eligible for Social Security and then worst of allowing to look at people's personal records.
▶ 0:28:27There's nobody on this committee that believes that that's the right thing to That these 24 year olds who have never been vetted have no accountability get to go in and look at individuals information. Mr. Chairman, we demand a hearing with the We demand a hearing with Doge.
▶ 0:28:53If they're so great and have file found all this fraud and abuse and a waste, why aren't they here sharing it with us so that we can go over it and work with you to eliminate? Who's in favor of fraud and abuse? But if that's not the case, then what is the motive behind them taking people's personal data and information and now supposedly storing it in a cloud? Basically, it's now in an unsecure location.
▶ 0:29:23Does anyone on this committee knows where where it is? The Social Security Administration doesn't even know where they've taken the documents that they've rummaged through and go over on a daily basis. It's an abomination. And everybody on this committee knows it. And I don't understand for the life of me why we don't have a full committee with Doge present.
▶ 0:29:53We tried before with Elon Musk, but apparently there are people in this country that believe they're above the law and don't have to come before the Congress of the United States and testify if they're doing such great deeds out there. If they're finding all of this fraud and abuse, why aren't they here before the committee in testifying? All these witnesses are very are exceptional. They're good people, too, as well. But guess what?
▶ 0:30:22They're not here to talk about what's actually happening in Social Security, what's actually going on before everyone's eyes. You imagine the largest insurance program in the nation, more than 70 million people, and it operates with administrative costs below 1%. Name another federal agency that does that.
▶ 0:30:48Show me any insurance company and I come from an insurance capital of the world where they are able to administer their programs far less than 70 million plus people between 16 and 26%. Mr. Chairman, you're a decent man. I know you care about Social Security as does everybody on this committee. It is beyond my belief as to why we can't have a public hearing.
▶ 0:31:18And most importantly, why we don't demand, why you individually, all of us are not outraged by the fact that Doge is not in front of this committee explaining what they've done with people's personal and individual information that they have access to and now it's an in an unsecure place and SAA does not have oversight of it anymore.
▶ 0:31:51Well, thank you, Ranking Member Larson. I now recognize a gentleman from Ohio, Work and Welfare Subcommittee member Mike Kerry, for his opening statement.
▶ 0:31:58Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I'm filling in today for Chairman Le Hood, but as a member of both subcommittees, I'm glad we are focusing on this topic and giving it the time and attention it rightly deserves. Before I begin, I would also e like to echo our chairman's remarks about our colleague, uh, Mr. Danny Davis, and he is recently announced that he will retire from Congress after representing Illinois's seventh congressional district for nearly 30 years.
▶ 0:32:29Representative Davis, you have been a tireless advocate and a champion for children and families through over the many decades of your public service. I would also like to echo my colleagues uh recognition that we celebrated 90 years of social security and all that is done to provide for seniors with certainty that they all need to have and satisfy their net in retirement.
▶ 0:32:54These are the benefits that seniors have earned and paid into and the government has made a promise that they will receive their benefits. So for this hearing, our goal is to focus on two important disability programs at Social Security Administration. Disability insurance is the number one and supplemental security income.
▶ 0:33:18These programs are essential for providing protection for millions of individuals with disabilities across our country. And I'm proud to say that last year, my home state of Ohio through our opportunities for Ohioans with disabilities agency worked with nearly 37,000 Ohioans with disabilities in their pursuit of meaningful work and independent lives. The vast majority of SSI and DI recipants simply cannot work.
▶ 0:33:48But some do work part-time or want to return to work as their medical conditions may have changed as or their technology advances to provide better accommodations and accessibility in the workplace. Now, according to a survey by the Social Security Administration, the majority of SSI and DI beneficiaries reported being work oriented with a goal of working or advancing in a career.
▶ 0:34:14And roughly nearly 18% saw themselves working enough to leave disability benefits in the next 5 years. for these individuals. We want to make sure that government policies are working in their favor and not discouraging or putting up walls that make it harder to connect to work. This is the first hearing we've had to review SSA's return to work policy since 2015, and I I think we're long overdue.
▶ 0:34:45Certainly, there are some incentives in place to encourage individuals to return to work and earn wages, but all the evidence suggests that they are effective. As an example, the Ticket to Work program was put in place in 1999, but according to SSA's survey, only one out of three beneficiaries have ever heard of the Ticket to Work. Now, there are policies to help individuals maintain their Medicaid and Medicare coverage, but many do not know about them.
▶ 0:35:16I'm particularly concerned about reports that fear of overpayment discouraged work attempts. As Congress, I introduced bipartisan legislation called the Protecting Americans for Social Security Clawback Act to address the overpayments made through no fault of the beneficiary. and I'm committed to continuing to focus on ways to decrease the overpayment rates at SSA.
▶ 0:35:40All of our government programs need to be oriented to provide every opportunity for individuals to reach reach their full capacity. We know that work brings dignity and purpose and government should never get in the way of that. I hope that we can work together with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to find bipartisan ways to improve outcomes for dis disabled individuals. I am honored to have our witnesses with us here today.
▶ 0:36:09I look forward to hearing what they have to say on these important issues. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:36:16Thank you, Mr. Kerry. I now recognize the gentleman from Illinois Work and Welfforce Subcommittee, Ranking Member Davis, for his opening statement.
▶ 0:36:23Let me thank you, Chairman. and the acting chairman of work and for your complimentary remarks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and our witnesses for this discussion on how to better serve Americans with including adults and children with severe disabilities who rely on Supplemental Security Income or SSI.
▶ 0:36:53Yet today, seniors and people with disabilities face increasing hardship from extreme Republican policies. The chaotic Trump tariffs that raise prices for the essentials needed to live.
▶ 0:37:09The evisceration of federal grants that shut us key services and massive staff reductions at the Social Security Administration that make it harder to get benefits. I recently spent three hours waiting with a family member for an appointment at a social security office. The amazing staff took the care needed to serve everyone.
▶ 0:37:38But President Trump's forcing out more than 7,000 means there are not enough people to do the work. The commissioner assured me that my experience was an outlier. But all of us are hearing from constituents and friends about people waiting months for appointments and hours for service.
▶ 0:38:05I want people with disabilities to have the best opportunities to thrive. But these customer service concerns, coupled with the recent Republican law kicking millions of Americans off Medicaid and food assistance, and the Trump administration's track record of using administrative processes to cut benefits create a real danger of Americans not getting their
▶ 0:38:36SSA benefits, further losing health insurance and food undermines the health of people with disabilities and the foundation of their ability to work. Successful strategies to help SASA beneficiaries work as much as they're able or labor intensive and cost money.
▶ 0:39:01They require frequent benefit adjustments, temporary eligibility adjustments, or individualized help. It is not tenable to add to the workload of SSAs, understaffed offices when they are struggling just to process benefit and answer questions from the public.
▶ 0:39:28One way to reduce work for SSA staff and help working beneficiaries is to increase the antiquated asset limit that cuts off SSI benefits anytime recipients have more than $2,000 in their bank accounts. That limit was set over 40 years ago.
▶ 0:39:53It discourages work and is a major driver of errors in SSI benefit payments. Together with my Republican colleague, Mr. Fitzpatrick, I lead the widely supported SSI Savings Penalty Elimination Act to increase the asset limit.
▶ 0:40:14Another way to simultaneously help people and reduce work for SSA is to keep in place the regulation simplifying SSI applications for seniors and people with disabilities who are part of poor families who need and receive SNAP benefits. Trump administration has suggested it might end this policy.
▶ 0:40:43Democrats support helping people with disabilities work and increase their income when they're able, but I will reject any effort to weaken disability supports or any offer to help some people with disabilities by cutting benefits for others. For good innovative ideas to work, we will first need to get the basics right.
▶ 0:41:11A wellstaffed and funded SSA, quality health insurance coverage, and the ability to save some of your earnings without fear of losing disability benefits. I hope that we can find common ground to improve disability benefits. And I thank our witnesses today for their ideas. And Mr.
▶ 0:41:34Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to submit to the record letters from over 240 suggesting the SSI savings penalty elimination act as well as letters from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and a group of foster youth advocates. I thank you, Mr. chairman and yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 0:42:05Without objection, so ordered.
▶ 0:42:08Thank you, Mr. Davis. And um now I'll introduce our witnesses and start with the uh here opening comments from them. Um first off, uh Sean Tyrie is a research aid and disability advocate at Kansas University Center on Disabilities. Amy Wallish is CEO at Full Circle Employment Solutions. Jared Sanderson is a partner at Nautical Manufacturing and Fulfillment. Dr.
▶ 0:42:34Denise Hoffman is principal researcher at Mathematics Policy Research. Tracy Thomas Groniger is managing director at economic security and housing justice and aging. Uh thank you all for joining us today and I'm looking forward to uh uh hearing your testimony. Your written statements will be made part of the hearing record and you each have five minutes to deliver your oral remarks. Mr. Tyrie, you may begin when you're ready.
▶ 0:43:04Dear Chairman Smith and members of the Social Security Work and Welfare Subcommittee, my name is Sean Tyrie and I'm a research aid and self- advocate at the University of Kansas Center on Disabilities, also known as KUCD, authorized under the Developmental Disabilities Act. KUCD is the University Center for Excellence and Developmental Disabilities, also known as a USA in the state of Kansas.
▶ 0:43:27I am testifying today regarding my journey through several government programs and service systems, including Social Security Income, SSI, and Social Security Disability Insurance, SSDI, that have supported me to become competitively employed in the state of Kansas. I am a person with a disability. I have a neuromuscular condition called sharkcomy tooth or CMT type 1A that was inherited at birth through my father. CMT is a degenerative disease, meaning it does not ever get better. It only gets worse.
▶ 0:44:00As someone who has had a disability their whole life, when I turned 18, my mom helped me to get on the Medicaid home and community based service weight list for people with physical disabilities in the state of Kansas. This weight list is around 2 years. After high school, I was able to get services I needed after being on the weight list. High school was a challenging time for me with my disabilities as I was recovering from multiple leg surgeries and rehabilitation and I faced near constant bullying.
▶ 0:44:26As an adolescent, I also received vocational rehabilitation or VR services from ages 14 to 21. In school, I took the initiative to invite a VR counselor to my annual section 504 meetings at school. Section 504 is a part of the federal rehabilitation act and my 504 plan ensured that I got the accommodations I needed to be successful in school. My school did not always invite VR but I knew they could help me reach my employment goals.
▶ 0:44:54VR services supported me with person- centered strength-based job search. With these services, I received tuition and assistance from a tech specialist to attend community college online. This allowed me to continue working toward my employment goals while also remaining close to home as at the time my dad became a double amputee due to CMT type 1A. I graduated with an associates of arts degree in August of 2023 supporting my goal to become an elementary school teacher.
▶ 0:45:23I worked from October 2021 to September 2024 as a substitute teacher. With the support of VR, I received supports to be successful in my position, including purchasing work clothes, required technology, and completing background checks. These VR funds come from the federal US Department of Education, specifically through the Rehabilitation Services Administration, and they have been critical to me gaining the skills I needed to be successful in employment.
▶ 0:45:50After years in the classroom, I decided to make a career change and find a new way to make important connections to new jobs. This led me to volunteering for the my transition my career top toa community team an initiative led by KUCD. These community teams bring together students, families, schools, VR professionals, and community members to support youth with disabilities to get jobs in the community through education and monthly resource meetings.
▶ 0:46:15At these meetings, I learned about my research aid about the research aid job at KUCD and thought my strong voice as a self- advocate and my lived experience with a disability could be useful to the work that KU was doing to enhance employment for people with disabilities. When I got the job offer, it made me realize how beneficial these systems of supports are for the success of people with disabilities like myself, which unfortunately due to the lack of federally funded job supports and accurate benefits planning, many people with disabilities do not get.
▶ 0:46:45As a research aid, I work to advance employment and transition supports for other people with disabilities while also allowing me to earn competitive wages and benefits through the state of Kansas employee healthcare system. While I am in competitive integrated employment, I also receive Medicaid and Medicare benefits and personal care services, all essential to my health and success.
▶ 0:47:06While these systems are typically difficult to navigate, the people at Working Healthy, a program in Kansas that supports people to work while keeping their essential Medicaid benefits, supported me to learn how my benefits would be impacted if I worked beyond the trial work period limits. As I made this trans transition, began my new career at KUCD, I had additional barriers to navigate as my dad passed away from his battle with CMT type 1A. I became eligible for some of his benefits in addition to my own SSDI monthly payment.
▶ 0:47:35With working healthy support, I learned that I could keep my essential benefits while working as long as I did not have assets over $2,000, which allowed me to continue to qualify for the home and community based service waiver. The $2,000 asset limit is a huge barrier to people with disabilities like me in seeking employment. However, I was recommended to open an ABLE savings account, which allows me to save up to $19,000 per year for qualified disability expenses.
▶ 0:48:01This lets me save for things like a car to get to work and other supportive technology that typically cost over $2,000 and is not typically covered by Medicaid or Medicare. ABLE accounts come from the federal achieving a better life experience act and allow individuals with disabilities to save money in a tax advantaged account without losing essential benefits.
▶ 0:48:19Because of my Able Now savings, I can now safely feel like I have a little nest egg for People with disabilities deserve to be able to maintain benefits that support their health and independence and have a job largely because of federal and state programs and supports from the disability field like the Kansas Department on Aging and Disability, KUCD, and the School of Marshall Meditative Arts and Topeka.
▶ 0:48:44Specifically, my mentor and friend Honchi Steve Twimlow, my hero, I have learned that my long-term potential for job growth and benefits are far better with a meaningful job in the community. I love my job at KUCD and believe that as people with disabilities go after employment, they should have the benefits and supports to empower them. I have learned I have shared today about my experience and journey into competitive integrated employment.
▶ 0:49:08Since being employed, I have had fewer hospital visits and now have a real purpose in my life to help others with disabilities reach their goals. I have developed as a professional and became a true independent adult in society. an adult who is brave enough to testify in front of Congress about his own personal lived experiences. I would not be sitting here before you today without the federal and state level supports and services I've received such as Medicaid, Medicare, SSDI, AEL, and section 504 and vocational rehabilitation.
▶ 0:49:36I also want to thank my family, friends, and mentors and supporters who have guided me through these systems. I have a higher quality of life because of my work in these services. People with disabilities can achieve far more than what society often expects. Like everyone else, they simply need the right supports to learn, grow, and pursue their purpose in life. Thanks to the opportunities provided by KUCD, I was able to discover a career I love.
▶ 0:50:00Without federal programs that promote competitive integrated employment while ensuring access to essential Medicaid benefits, many people like me may face institutionalization or lose the support needed to thrive and grow professionally in their career they are passionate about. Thank you for your time and attention today. I appreciate the opportunity to share my story with you
▶ 0:50:20Thank you. I appreciate your remarks and uh uh particularly thank you for mentioning uh ABLE accounts. I was Kansas State Treasurer when uh worked with Congress to actually help get the law passed and actually structured some things to make sure that as uh in most cases state treasures across the country implemented those programs and we set up that program in Kansas uh to help make sure that that that worked for folks to save money. So,
▶ 0:50:43thank you for signing that in and yeah, that's been critical in my journey to competitive integrated employment. So, thank you.
▶ 0:50:49All right. So, thank you. And next, Amy Wallace, you have five minutes to uh present your opening remarks, and you can begin when you're ready.
▶ 0:50:57Chairman Estus, Representative Kerry, ranking members Larson and Davis, and members of the subcommittees. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Amy Wallish and I am the founder and CEO of Full Circle Employment Solutions, a national woman-owned small business dedicated to expanding employment opportunities for people with disabilities.
▶ 0:51:17I've spent over 25 years in the intersect of disability employment and policy running employment networks working through whip work incentive planning and assistance or whip programs working on SSA demonstration projects and national evaluation teams. I've also provided direct benefits counseling to thousands of social security beneficiaries over the years. We are unique in that 81% of our staff are certified benefits counselors.
▶ 0:51:48We have gone through a rigorous training program and understanding of social security and other federal public benefits. Benefits counseling is the cornerstone to return to work efforts. It helps people understand how employment impacts their benefits and health care, giving them the confidence to pursue work without fear.
▶ 0:52:10Let me tell you about Joe, not his real name, who was homeless and living in a car, receiving mental health services when he began working with our benefits counselor through a state VR, vocational rehab benefits counseling program. With support, he secured full-time employment as an HVAC assistant. However, shortly after, his Medicaid stopped abruptly, jeopardizing his health and his job.
▶ 0:52:33His counselor worked with the senator's office to reinstate coverage through 1619b, ensured proper wage reporting, and stabilized his benefits. He was then able to focus on finding housing, continued working, and chose to receive ongoing support through our Ticket to Work EN from 2018 to 2023.
▶ 0:52:54His journey shows how timely benefits counseling, particularly in moments of crisis, and collaboration between VR and ENS through Partnership Plus can transform lives and reduce barriers to employment. As demonstrated in this story, meeting basic human needs must be met before someone is ready to move forward with work. Awareness of the rules and programs is an ongoing barrier to successful employment.
▶ 0:53:21That's why I believe the Ticket to Work marketing program is a powerful strategy. It allows ENS to reach out to at least 300,000 beneficiaries every 90 days on Social Security's behalf. Our EN saw 121% increase in ticket assignments or beneficiary participation from June of 2020 through March of 2023 since SSA began enforcing a 0.5% requirement in March of 2023.
▶ 0:53:51assignments have dropped. SSA should eliminate that 0.5% assignment requirement. This change would allow ENS to expand outreach opportunities, engage more beneficiaries, and help them return to work, and deliver critical information at no cost to Social Security. We also need to modernize outdated systems. The benefits planning query or BPQY is often incorrect and can take up to several months to receive.
▶ 0:54:19Requiring wet signatures on forms like the SSA 3288 consent for release of information creates unnecessary delays. Adopting e signatures and real time data access would streamline operations and reduce overpayments. Speaking of overpayments, they remain one of the biggest deterrents to work. Many individuals park themselves under the substantial gainful activity level of 1620 a month to avoid triggering benefit loss.
▶ 0:54:50This traps people in poverty when they could be thriving in full-time work and financial independence. Benefits counseling helps tip that balance. It shows people how to take calculated steps forward using the protections built in place like the trial work period, extended period of eligibility, Medicaid buyin, expedited reinstatement, the list goes on. These tools are powerful, but they're only effective when people understand how to use them.
▶ 0:55:18Kushell reduced his earnings not due to inability, but because the supports he relied on were at risk. Unaware of available protections, he connected with our Ticket to Work program through a friend and received individualized benefits counseling that helped him return to work full-time. Inspired by the impact, Kushall became a certified benefits counselor and I'm proud to say now works under one of our WHIPA projects guiding others and their employment journey.
▶ 0:55:47In closing, the the programs created in the ticket act in 1999 were visionary. I urge the committees and congress to prioritize funding and support for the ticket to work and whip programs. Expand access to benefits counseling and transform transform systems to maximize impact and reduce barriers.
▶ 0:56:08Benefits counseling through these programs reduce long-term dependence on public benefits, support social security's mission, and help people with disabilities contribute meaningfully to the economy, including the Social Security Trust Fund. With modernization and investment, we can make work truly work for everyone. Thank you for your leadership and allowing me to share this testimony.
▶ 0:56:34Well, thank you for your testimony. And uh now I'd like to uh to turn to Jared Sanderson for you to uh uh make your opening remarks and uh please limit your remarks to five minutes. Thank you.
▶ 0:56:45Well, thank you Chairman Estus, Representative Kerry, ranking members Larson and Davis and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Uh before I get started, I want to do say Chairman Estus, while I live in Missouri, the work that I've done that I'm going to talk about happened in Kansas. So um hopefully you give me some grace. Uh and don't hold it against me where I reside. Um so my name is Jared Sanderson. I I come to you today wearing two hats. U I started my career uh cut my teeth in the social service world. Uh licensed clinical social worker. I worked in that space for 18 years.
▶ 0:57:14Um I worked in about every program you can imagine. I started in foster care. I worked in senior care. I worked in veteran care. Um I represented the United States Department of State as a Fulbright scholar in South Africa doing homeless prevention. Uh that was the first 18 years. Um, I then pivoted to the for-profit world, uh, where I was the COO for Nautical Manufacturing and Fulfillment and, u, a managing partner for Staffing by Starboard, a sister staffing company for Nautical. So, I want to talk about both of those experiences because they're both very relevant.
▶ 0:57:43U, I want to talk about the social service part of this first and then pivot to the reason that I was invited, which was the employer perspective, hiring people with disabilities. So, um, on the the nonprofit side, I'm a firm believer in social entrepreneurship. I think businesses that place their purpose at the center and the intersection of market demand and social need um can do a whole lot of good. Uh they can harness the power of markets but also meet u social demands in ways that pro that some other programs just can't.
▶ 0:58:12Um so I have the the benefit of sitting on two boards organizations in Kansas City that do this very well. Prosperity is the name of one of them. We train homeless moms in dog grooming and then place them at salons throughout the city. and we open our own salon of most of the women that we work with long histories of poverty and trauma. The crushing impact of that generally leads to some type of diagnosed disability uh mostly on the mental health side.
▶ 0:58:38So that that is a social entrepreneurship that I think works and also creates pathways to employment for people with disabilities. U the other board that I sit on is reconciliation services. This is an organization that is nested at 31st and truce. truce is the racial dividing line in Kansas City historically. Uh and they are working on community healing and also have a very strong social entrepreneurship focus and workforce program.
▶ 0:59:02Um same thing there a whole lot of individuals with diagnosed disabilities for mental health because they have known nothing but poverty and trauma their entire lives. Uh there is so much talent that is being wasted because all it gets to do is spend it time trying to survive. uh and if you don't have anything else that you can focus on but getting through the day, it is extremely difficult to engage in any type of work workforce program whether it's funded or not. Um so I say that because we really do have to address the things that are causing people to not get to work to begin with.
▶ 0:59:32Um so I want to spend a few a few minutes talking about that. In general, my core message today is that it is not charity to hire people with disabilities. It is a sound business strategy. uh there is a huge upside uh and I will get into why that is from my perspective. I think the data and research bears this out as well. So the talent isn't untapped because there's a lack of skill or desire. There are some outdated perceptions and some systemic barriers. Uh generally not because of malice but because sometimes incentives just don't align.
▶ 1:00:03Uh and things have changed. We've learned a lot more about the space that we're working in now. Um so there are are kind of two broad types of disabilities that I want to cover. uh actually one that I want to cover which is more the mental health side. Uh there are people to the left and right of me that are much much better on the developmental uh and physical disability side. Um so um before I get into my the last thing I want to talk about the benefits cliff is a very real problem.
▶ 1:00:29Um depending on the state tanniff Medicaid and childcare subsidies can have a cliff effect where it's kind of all or nothing. that does make it difficult sometimes for somebody to come in at an entry level u and then earn their way in. Uh housing and transportation is also a a major issue generally uh and that exacerbates for people with disabilities. So u those are policy things. I want to finish my time talking about experience that we've had at nautical manufacturing fulfillment uh with Down Syndrome Innovations an organization in Lanexa Kansas.
▶ 1:00:59We struggle with the same thing that every 3PL struggles with which is seasonal work. Um, we partnered with Downs and Dream Innovations to hire their self- advocates. Long story short, we've hired 35 of their individuals uh to date and they are exactly the kinds of individuals that any employer is looking for. They're engaged, they're consistent, and they love what they do. Um, the throughput and their production has increased. The number of smiles that go through that building have increased substantially as well. Uh, it is it is not just heartwarming.
▶ 1:01:29It's not just the right thing to do. it was actually just a very sound business strategy. So I think there are a lot of individuals in that space. This is a very big topic. So I will stop there. But I think that we have millions of people who are ready to be committed, loyal, engaged and growthminded and they just need a pathway to get there. So I very much appreciate the time today uh and appreciate you hosting this hearing so that we can talk through these issues. Thank you.
▶ 1:01:57Well, thank you for your testimony. And now Dr. Denise Hoffman, if you uh would like to share your oral testimony and please limit your remarks to five minutes. Thank you.
▶ 1:02:05Chairman Estus, Representative Kerry, Ranking Member Larson, Ranking Member Davis, and distinguished members of the subcommittees. Thank you for inviting me to testify in this important topic. I've studied disability policy for 15 years at Mathematica. This includes leading evaluations of major social security administration programs such as ticket to work and the benefit offset national demonstration as well as research on work rellated overp payments.
▶ 1:02:31My testimony today is based on these The supplemental security income and social security disability insurance programs serve people with severe health impairments who meet stringent eligibility criteria. Two in 10 die within five years of benefit award. Many cannot work. But some have the capacity and desire to do so. Unfortunately, the current SSI and SSDI disability systems create significant barriers to work.
▶ 1:03:00The first barrier is that many beneficiaries are unaware of or have limited understanding of program features. For example, just 28% of SSDI beneficiaries interested in working reported understanding the trial work period, which allows beneficiaries to test work without a reduction in benefits. This confusion, confusion and misunderstanding can create hesitancy to work. The second barrier is that program complexity makes implementation difficult.
▶ 1:03:28In 2022, it took an average of 262 days for SSA to complete an earnings review, not counting delays in initiating the review. These types of delays often lead to overpayments. My research shows that 82% of SSDI beneficiaries who work and earn above a certain program threshold are overpaid. Overpayment can cause financial harm to beneficiaries who struggle to repay overpayment debt, reduce their work activity, and imposes significant costs to SSA.
▶ 1:03:59The third barrier is that current program features referred to as work incentives can actually function as A key example is SSDI so-called cash cliff. After the trial work period, SSDI benefits drop to zero dollars once earnings exceed a certain threshold. Research shows that some beneficiaries, in alignment with program incentives, intentionally limit their earnings to avoid losing their benefits.
▶ 1:04:26These three barriers also undermine SSA's marquee employment support program to get to work by creating confusion and fear around returning to work. So what can be done in the short term? There's an opportunity to improve current program operations, but there's also a need for evidence about larger scale reforms with the potential to generate more impactful results. The first action is to ensure the timely and accurate implementation of current program rules.
▶ 1:04:53Beneficiaries need clear, accurate information and explanations of how program rules affect their benefits supported by modernized processes such as increased automation of earnings processing to avoid or reduce The second action is to resume the gathering of rigorous evidence to inform SSA policy and programmatic decisions related to current operations.
▶ 1:05:15The recent discontinuation of several data related efforts has limited access to research ready administrative files and new survey evidence including um some that was mentioned in opening remarks slowing evaluation of programs like ticket to work and limiting the availability of timely data to improve program operations and support agencywide efficiencies.
▶ 1:05:38The final action is for Congress to reinstate SSA's section 234 demonstration authority, which expired in 2021 and previously provided a solid evidence base for policy decisions related to SSDI. Bond, which tested replacing the SSDI cashcliff with a $1 benefit offset for every $2 earned, serves as an example of why testing is essential.
▶ 1:06:01The bond demonstration revealed that the tested policy would cost the SSDI trust fund an estimated $1 billion annually without increasing average beneficiary earnings. Policymakers use this evidence to make an informed decision against national Demonstration authority is essential to evaluate compelling ideas for reforms that encourage work, simplify program rules, and are administratively Many beneficiaries want to work but are held back by a system that is difficult to
▶ 1:06:31navigate and can discourage work. By improving implementation and restoring SSA's demonstration authority to identify large-scale improvements, Congress can help ensure that SSA effectively supports beneficiaries who have the ability and desire to work. Again, thank you for the opportunity to appear today and I look forward to any
▶ 1:06:51Well, thank you for your testimony. Now we'll turn to uh Tracy Thomas Groner and if you would uh uh present your oral testimony and please limit it to five minutes. Thank you.
▶ 1:07:02Good afternoon, Chairman Estus, Ranking Member Larson, Representative Kerry, Ranking Member Davis, and members of the subcommittee. I'm Tracy Growner, managing director of economic security and housing at Justice and Aging, an organization committed to using the power of law to advocate for the rights of low-income older adults. I'm also here as a co-chair and on behalf of the Social Security Task Force of the Consortium for Constituents with Disabilities.
▶ 1:07:30I'm here today to talk about the importance of Social Security Disability Insurance or SSDI and Supplemental Security Income or SSI and how we can better support beneficiaries who want to work without fear of losing the benefits they depend on. I'll focus on three points. First, SSDI and SSI are vital for millions of seniors and people with disabilities. Monthly benefits are modest, but help people pay for basics like rent, food, and medical co-pays.
▶ 1:08:00They also provide access to essential health care through Medicare and Medicaid. Cuts to these vital benefits would not only harm the economic security of seniors and disabled beneficiaries, but also their independence and freedom to work. SSA beneficiaries face great risk when attempting to work and need the assurance not only of monthly income but also essential health care when engaging in uncertain employment.
▶ 1:08:27Second, complex rules and staffing shortages that reduce beneficiary support create barriers for those who want to attempt to return to work. The process to obtain benefits is long and difficult, and once approved, beneficiaries must navigate a minefield of eligibility rules. SSI, for example, caps assets for an individual at $2,000.
▶ 1:08:51Exceeding this limit by even a small amount means benefits are not payable for that month, forcing the individual to spend down their savings. SSI benefits are also reduced when individuals earn money. Earned income disregards, unchanged since the program began in 1972, impose harsher consequences for work than Congress likely intended. Overpayments are another huge problem.
▶ 1:09:17While SSDI and SSI recipients must report their income to SSA, staffing shortages and related processing delays lead to erroneous payments. During the current administration, the repayment rate for SSDI beneficiaries was increased from 10% of their monthly benefits to 50%. Meaning people can lose half their monthly benefits through no fault of their own. These problems cause real harm.
▶ 1:09:44Take Miss G, an older woman who was receiving SSDI benefits due to multiple serious medical conditions. After years of working part-time and reporting her earnings, SSA informed her earlier this year that she was no longer eligible for SSDI benefits retroactive to 2016 and that she owed over $100,000.
▶ 1:10:08She spent hours on the phone on hold, was turned away from her local field office, and struggled to navigate the complicated appeals process to resolve this issue. In the meantime, she lost her benefits, which was devastating. Without SSDI, Miss G was unable to pay her rent. Without Medicare, she was forced to ration her access to health care, foregoing medications that cost her hundreds of dollars per month out of pocket. Her part-time work isn't enough to cover her costs. SSDI was her lifeline.
▶ 1:10:38Unfortunately, as SSA loses thousands of experienced, knowledgeable customer service staff, her story is not an aberration. People with disabilities who attempt to work may instead lose out on the very source of income they need to survive. Finally, Congress can act to ensure that people who want to try to return to work still have access to the benefits they rely on.
▶ 1:11:03The bipartisan SSI savings penalty elimination act would increase asset limits so that people are better able to save for emergencies and necessary expenses. Congress can also raise the SSI income disregards so that people can keep more of the money they earn. The clause off Social Security Act would limit harsh overpayment withholdings caused by SSA's mistakes.
▶ 1:11:26And importantly, SSA needs adequate customer service staff and administrative funding so that beneficiaries can get the help they need and trust that their benefits are secure if they attempt to work. In conclusion, seniors and people with disabilities should be able to attempt to work without fear of losing their benefits and should have access to strong customer service.
▶ 1:11:49Congress must ensure that disability benefits are accessible, secure, and able to meet the needs of the people they serve. Thank you.
▶ 1:12:00Thank you. Thank you all for your testimonies. And now we'll proceed to the question and answer session. I'll start with myself. Um Mr. Tyrie, navigating the various federal and state support for individuals with disabilities is a challenge. Uh applicants and beneficiaries are frequently confused by the rules and requirements uh of the disability insurance program. You had help from family who were familiar with the available services to individuals with disability but still found it difficult to connect with the with the necessary support services.
▶ 1:12:30Can you talk a little bit about some of the barriers you you encountered while trying to seek uh support to enter the workforce? Yes, thank you chairman Essis. Um, so I would say some of the s systemic barriers that I have faced, um, not to be too vague here, but one of them is there is so many service and support combinations which are all needed.
▶ 1:12:57That combination of services and supports is what I believe contributes to a person being successful in competitive integrated employment while having a disability. But um because of the nature of how many services and supports there are, there needs to be, like I said, my testimony based on my lived experience um more benefits planning and more knowledge surrounding benefits planning because at the time um I knew a woman that was basically one of the only
▶ 1:13:27benefits planners in the state of Kansas. And uh to my best knowledge, there's only eight currently in the state of Kansas. um which isn't enough for the population that we're dealing with um here today. So, thank you
▶ 1:13:42All right. Thank you.
▶ 1:13:44U social security administration uh SSA already has programs that are intended to support a return to work uh to the workplace, but making sure beneficiaries know about these programs and connecting them with the right support services to help navigate the often complex rules that go along with returning to work is a sometimes a difficult challenge.
▶ 1:14:03Uh, Miss Wallish, uh, can you talk a little bit about the services and programs available that are underutilized because of lack of awareness and what could SSA do to help improve the awareness and reduce the complexity of these programs?
▶ 1:14:16Sure. So, so first of all, in my hat, I would say that the Ticket to Work program is underutilized. We've already heard, you know, statistics mentioned um from from surveys. The WHIPA program is underutilized as well. Uh and then the work incentives quite frankly are underutilized including the Medicaid buy-in programs.
▶ 1:14:39Not every state has a Medicaid buyin program uh which ideally every state did because that does limit individuals uh who need and rely on the supports and services to work and to to have access to that Medicaid services. Um but under ticket to work I think that the lack of awareness is there partly the social security offices don't have they don't know um and there's so much misinformation that is given out at the local offices.
▶ 1:15:08So ideally the local offices would have um you know some more training you know there are awix and and I know I know that's that's a cost right we're not looking at that okay but but there are individuals within the local offices that do have expertise and ideally there's some access to them for beneficiaries because that misinformation that is given then causes people to be like okay social security told me this I can't work right Um
▶ 1:15:39the WHIPA programs, they've been flatfunded and so there is no outreach. There's nothing. There's barely, you know, we have $300,000 per whip project to serve many more beneficiaries now than even 10 years ago. Um so looking at that, uh if it funding was increased, that would allow more awareness. We used to be able to provide outreach. We've limit that now because we need to do the direct service because of the funding. And then work incentives.
▶ 1:16:07So subsidies for example, someone having a support from a job coach, special condition or an employer has made an accommodation for that person is a work incentive that is so underutilized and as a benefits counselor we have to go back and help develop that to get rid of overpayments. So there are these different things that would help um awareness and you know reduce the complexity of the program. Thank you. Well, thank you, Dr. Hoffman.
▶ 1:16:37Social Security Demonstration Authority to initiate new projects expired at the end of 2021. The benefit asset national demonstration or bond and to promote opportunity demonstration or pod projects were implemented to test different options to uh address the cash cliff that disability uh insurance uh benefits. What were the lessons learned from these demonstrations? And should Congress explore providing additional authority for demonstration projects?
▶ 1:17:05Do you have thoughts about how a new demonstration project could be designed to better study and understand uh the incentives for beneficiaries and support work opportunities for those who want to
▶ 1:17:16Yes. Uh so thinking back to bond and pod, I think there are two main lessons learned that stand out. The first is that implementation matters and this relates to complexity. For example, in bond, some of the program complexity led to delays in benefit adjustments and overpayments that presumably affected beneficiary experiences and outcomes.
▶ 1:17:35Uh somewhat related also is beneficiary understanding of program rules that incentives can't incentivize behavior change if people don't understand what the new rules are. Um so looking ahead, yes, absolutely I think that reinstating demonstration authority is essential. Um there are compelling ideas for reform but they are untested and we can't know how they will work until they're tested.
▶ 1:18:02I think bond and pod is a are great examples of solutions that people propose that had a lot of promise but in practice did not achieve policy goals. Um I will also note that currently the SSDI trust fund is not anticipating a budget shortfall. That has not always been the case. So taking the investment now to figure out what works for more meaningful program change is is I think a wise use of time because research does take time.
▶ 1:18:28Um and then in terms of design um so I think that as a first step there needs to be some um stakeholder involvement in selection and design. So convening people with varied experiences including service providers, uh people with disabilities, SSA staff and researchers to figure out what the promising solutions are. Um also giving an opportunity for uh policy makers to to weigh in and and approve um potential tests, but then proceeding with small pilots.
▶ 1:18:59So having many ideas, testing variants of them in small ways, and then using successful pilots as a launching point for larger demonstration tests.
▶ 1:19:10Well, thank you. And now I recognize a ranking member, Mr. Larson, for his
▶ 1:19:16Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, again. And Mr. Chairman, I want to ask you if you will uh commit to bringing Doge before us to hold a hearing on the whistleblower report. Uh we're we're working at uh my understanding as legal council is looking at the whistleblowers. Obviously there's sensitivity around that. I do think there'll be some more information that comes out over that.
▶ 1:19:39We want to make sure that uh one we protect the confidentiality of the whistleblower and we'll figure out how to how to move forward with that. Uh working with the whistleblower and and their their representatives on on what to do move
▶ 1:19:53Is so is that a yes? Well, I don't know if we'll have a hearing, but certainly we want we want to proceed. Obviously, it's very important on whistleblowers to make sure that not only do we we uh uh make sure the programs work right, but also make sure that we we uh protect their their confidentiality and and their preferences as well. Well, I know how fervent everybody was on the other side of the aisle to make sure that Hunter Biden uh the whistleblower there was brought in.
▶ 1:20:21And uh it' be nice to see that uh when you have something at stake and this is all the information on Hunter. When we have something like everyone's social security records at stake here, uh I think it's mandatory uh that this Congress and the American people know exactly what's happened to them. Mrs. Brown, would you agree with
▶ 1:20:47Yes, I think it is an important topic and I think people would like to know
▶ 1:20:52Let me ask the other panelists. Do do you agree that the uh whistleblower should these charges? Do let me start with an easy question. Do you know have any idea Mr. Tyrie where that information is SSA
▶ 1:21:06that those spirited away?
▶ 1:21:10I do not Mr. Larson. And um
▶ 1:21:12based on my lived experience, I'd like to know where it is as well, but I'm not going to speak for others. Thank you,
▶ 1:21:18Mrs. Walsh.
▶ 1:21:19No, I do not know where it is.
▶ 1:21:21Mr. Sanderson, Dr. Hoffman. No, it's again
▶ 1:21:26Wow. I I I understand I get the I get the point that you probably can't possibly know, but here it is. And you all did an excellent job in your presentations and have valid concerns about disability and how we can improve it. But how can we improve it if we're laying off 7,000 people? If we're not fixing the antiquated phone system?
▶ 1:21:52If we're saying it's all going to change because of AI and yet an unvetted group of people is allowed to come in and look at everybody's individual records. Is that a good thing, Mrs. Grajer?
▶ 1:22:12No, I don't think so. Representative
▶ 1:22:15Dr. Mr. Hoffman,
▶ 1:22:19I will note that um from a contractor point of view, we have to go through extensive vetting to be able to access
▶ 1:22:27But then no one from Doge did, Mr. Sanderson.
▶ 1:22:34Yeah, in general, I think it's very important to maintain people's privacy and their confidential information. That's always the case in any setting.
▶ 1:22:40Mrs. Wallish,
▶ 1:22:42I agree. you have to be vetted and there is um a process for being clear to be able to see information.
▶ 1:22:50Thank you, Mr. Tyrie.
▶ 1:22:54Yeah, I believe it's a subject matter that should be kept confidential um at all times. So, we have this situation where we have the nation's number one anti-poverty program for the elderly, the number one anti-poverty program for children, carrying all of the documentation of more than 70 million people, but in essence, it's all of America who is going to be on social security.
▶ 1:23:24And certainly and clearly there are things that we could do to improve and help and aid people with disabilities. The waiting period to receive disabilities. People have died waiting to get their disability payments. Why in God's name are we spiriting that information away and putting it in a cloud? Whatever the good that means. Uh I I I just can't fathom it.
▶ 1:23:54And I think it's Mr. Chairman, I think it's important that this committee who has the committee of cognizance gets the answers to this. We tried earlier with a uh inquir of resolution to have Elon Musk come before here, but apparently there are some people in this country that are above the law and don't have to come before the Congress. And now we have Doge 24 year olds unvetted, unaccountable, doing the same thing with people's information, unaccountable for.
▶ 1:24:24I want to thank the witnesses for your cander and your honesty.
▶ 1:24:29Thank Thank you uh Mr. Larson for yours. I I do want to make I I appreciate you bringing up the comment about the phone service and and uh how well that's working. Uh when I was uh in the Witchaw field office last Friday with Commissioner Vizinano, uh they implemented the new phone system uh just in July and they've said they've already seen tremendous improvements in terms of the response time for both folks that come in uh not just for retirement but uh for disability enrollment and and other issues.
▶ 1:24:57So I I look forward to seeing uh some improved statistics around that uh with the new system being rolled out across the country. And now I'd like to recognize work and welfare subcommittee member Mr. Kerry for uh
▶ 1:25:10Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr. Tyrie, I have to say your story is probably one of the most inspirational stories I've ever heard. Um and you should really really be proud of of how you have overcome great physical and personal difficulties to achieve your per professional personal successes in your life.
▶ 1:25:33I I guess the question I have is, can you explain the physical and psychological and emotional benefits you've experienced since you've been employed by Kansas University Center of
▶ 1:25:49Yes, I would love to. So, um, first off, I would like to kind of go back to my testimony. Um, as I said, I have had less hospitalizations for mental and physical health. um upon being competitively integrated employed in the state of Kansas by KUCD um it has given me a real purpose in my life because I'm able to help others that are in the same situation that I was in um when I couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel between
▶ 1:26:19all these different services and support systems that we have to navigate to get the necessary support to uh receive competitive integrated employment and and things of that nature. and um it it's it's given me a different outlook on life and uh changed the perception of my own capabilities. So um yeah, thank you Mr. Kerry.
▶ 1:26:40Well, Mr. T, I would also say would would you say that your wife has really found purpose with your employment?
▶ 1:26:48Yes. Um before I found competitive integrated employment, I didn't really have a purpose uh greater than myself. And because of KUCD and the services and supports that helped me to find that job and uh and maintain that job without losing my essential benefits, yeah, I would have basically graduated to the couch and have been relying on uh supports and services and wouldn't had been
▶ 1:27:18able to do things as independently.
▶ 1:27:20Okay. Thank thank you for that. Um Mrs. Walsh. Um I was struck in your testimony in here that uh people are trying to survive and the system is as it is structured and I think this is a quote can now make work feel like a risk not a reward. I think that was your statement. Um my question can you talk more about the reality of what's facing individuals and the intangible benefits of work
▶ 1:27:53around risk and reward and employment. Okay. So with benefits it's very difficult to get on in the first place. We all know that. It's been stated right? It takes a long time. Once I'm on the benefit now I get a letter saying hey go to work. That's what the ticket to work letter that comes about a year later says, "Hey, guess what? You can go to work now." I may or may not want to go to work depending on, you know, where I'm at, what my disability is, all of that. Maybe I do want to go to work.
▶ 1:28:21But there's a risk with going to work because what happens to those benefits? What's going to happen to my Medicaid? What's going to happen to my food stamps? What's going to happen to my child's b benefit? Right? All of these things have to be looked at and there's a calculation that can be done, right? There there's this risk and reward. So when I counsel someone for example, I will not make a decision for them. I will give them the information. Here's the bottom line.
▶ 1:28:45If you go to work and you're earning this and you have this benefit, here's what financially the bottom line's going to look like. You have to make that decision though because work is more than just a paycheck. There is value in work as you've just stated, right? like there's all of these other pieces, my mental health, all of these other other things that happen.
▶ 1:29:07So there is risk and reward and you have to determine that and having people come alongside you different supports which these programs that we're talking about do is incredibly important.
▶ 1:29:19Well, thank thank you for that. Um I think I'm Yeah, I'm going to do Mr. Sanderson. I I'm reading through reading through your testimony. I think you said most of it, but one of the recommendations is is from for us to look at ways to encourage public and private partnerships. So there is more of a collaborative model to to benefit employers in the community employment agencies like like the one that Mrs. Walsh runs.
▶ 1:29:47Um what changes would that involve or how would that look in Yeah, I think there's there's probably several ways to do it. Um I think there's probably movement that needs to happen on both sides of that.
▶ 1:30:03Um and it's not as if this is an eitheror, but I think there is some there are some employers who who just aren't quite fully educated on the benefits of working with organizations who are helping people get job ready who have disabilities. Um, and I know that that term disability, there are times there are organizations that use diverse ability. It's not just a novelty. There are extraordinary abilities that are nested in people who've experienced hardship.
▶ 1:30:31It's unfortunate that people have experienced that hardship. Uh, and there are oftent times there's no good reason why it occurred, but if somebody is able to make it through that experience, they are generally in a better position to be exactly the kind of employee that somebody's looking for. So, I think there is a there's an opportunity to educate employers on one the organizations that are doing this in their area. I think there are a lot of employers that don't know it and it's not because they don't want to know it. Their heads down. They're in the weeds. They're trying to grow their business.
▶ 1:30:59Um they may not know that there is an organization or multiple organizations training people specifically for their industry. So, I think that there's awareness generally changes everything. um it's a bit hard to pinpoint, but you know it when you see it and you can't unknow it once you're aware of something. And so I've been fortunate enough to come from that other side of the ledger.
▶ 1:31:21So I came into the for-profit world knowing all these organizations that are providing these services u and getting people to a place where they can engage meaningful in employment. Um so I think if I had to pick one, I would probably start there. some attempt to educate employers on on the organizations around them that are basically building a pipeline to workforce for them and they don't know
▶ 1:31:44Well, I I want to thank you for your testimony. I want to thank all of you and uh with that I yield.
▶ 1:31:50Thank you. I now recognize work and welfare ranking member Davis for
▶ 1:31:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um Mr. Bruner, let me ask you. My Ways and Means colleague, Mr. Fitzpatrick, and I have introduced the SSI savings penalty elimination act, which would adjust u the asset limit for supplemental security income. It has gathered support from over 240 organizations, but has not yet been considered by our committee.
▶ 1:32:27Let me ask how would it help seniors, people with and children if we were to enact this Thank you for the question. It would make an extraordinary difference. It can be really hard to navigate SSI and for people who are trying to save money and also do all the things of life. You know, you have to pay for car repairs, you have to pay for home repairs.
▶ 1:32:54There are all these different things that seniors and people with disabilities need to do. In most cases, we tell people to save. Um, and in this case, we're telling people to be careful about savings. And that doesn't really make sense because it not only leads to overpayments when people are then not eligible for benefits because they went slightly over this asset limit, but it also creates a lot of work for SSA because then they have to keep track of these kind of monthly changes to people's income.
▶ 1:33:23And so if we could get rid of that and allow people to save the money that they need and then also take off of SSA's plate having to watch people so closely for their assets to make sure it's not going over $2,000 per month. It would make a huge difference.
▶ 1:33:40Thanks to the chaotic Trump tariffs and his slash and burn approach to federal job seekers are facing the worst job market that we've seen in years. Employers have already announced over job cuts, the highest level since the pandemic.
▶ 1:34:04And the one high and bright spot health care is about to be devastated when 15 million Americans will lose their health insurance according to the big beautiful bill and can no longer pay for care. Will this difficult job market make it more difficult for workers with disabilities to find and keep work?
▶ 1:34:33And might employers be less likely to begin or continue programs like the ones we've heard about today if there are fewer job openings at a much higher cost of doing business.
▶ 1:34:50So I think these cuts to Medicaid are going to be really devastating because it means millions of seniors and people with disabilities are going to lose access to healthcare. That means people who are not able to get the help and care they need, people who are sicker. Um, if you're not healthy, it's not easy to work and especially maintain a job. And so we're going to see even if people want to work, they're losing access to the supports that they need to do that.
▶ 1:35:19And you're also going to see people losing access through Medicaid to things like home and community based services which allow them to stay in their community to get the care they need and not be forced into institutional care. Um, which will also affect their ability to work and to be able to live and stay in their communities.
▶ 1:35:39Even with that, I understand that the Social Security Administration has announced that it is considering revoking a policy that ensures that seniors and people with disabilities who live with family members who rely on SNAP to buy food can qualify for SSI benefits.
▶ 1:36:02How would that policy change affect the most vulnerable and poorest people in our society?
▶ 1:36:12Yes. So, this is the public assistance household rule and it exists so that people who are in very lowincome households won't see their benefits reduced because of regulations around what is called inind support and maintenance. Typically, people who live in a household with nonssi recipients will see their benefits reduced by a third because the idea is that they have help and they have support and so they don't need as much in benefits.
▶ 1:36:41But when you're in a very low-income household, you do need those benefits and they are critical to your family's survival. And so we have been using under current rules SNAP to show that a household is a public assistance household and needs all of the SSI benefits. Um but with the current changes, this may lead to hundreds of thousands of people.
▶ 1:37:04If we change these rules, take SNAP out of the public assistance household category, we could lose that and hundreds of thousands of people could see their benefits reduced.
▶ 1:37:12Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 1:37:16Well, thank you. And now I'll um uh go to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, the uh member of the Social Security subcommittee, Mr. Smucker.
▶ 1:37:26Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for calling this hearing today. Thanks to uh each of you for being here, particularly Mr. Tyrie. Um wonderful to hear your story and you know we want to ensure that as many people as possible can follow a similar path to what you have where what you have followed where you're able to return to or uh enter the workforce and and have uh great great employment opportunities like you've described.
▶ 1:37:55And so it's it's frustrating when sometimes um we hear that a return to work program can be so complicated that actually that it actually keeps people from uh working. And I really think the Social Security Administration has a responsibility to help the people that it serves understand their benefits so that they can use those benefits to help themselves just as as you shared that. By the way, that's why I'm working on another bill with Mr.
▶ 1:38:23buyer to provide clarity to older Americans deciding when to begin claiming their social security uh in order to best meet their financial needs. It's about having the information available and explained in a way that people can understand. So, that's an important bill as well. Uh but it's uh even more confusing at times and worse for those drawing disability benefits. Dr.
▶ 1:38:48Hoffman, in your uh testimony, you contrast the ways that SSDI and SSI calculate eligibility. For example, SSDI has a cash cliff that scares people away from working and saving money while SSI phases out benefits at a one for$2 offset. How can we better align uh these programs, phase out structures to reduce confusion and maintain incentives to
▶ 1:39:14Yeah. So, I think this builds into the section 234 demonstration authority that had expired several years ago. Um, I don't think that there is a clear solution. I think there are several um compelling ideas, but I think that they need to be vetted and tested to ensure that they can achieve administrative feasibility, that beneficiaries can understand them, and to test whether they can in fact in the real world achieve policy goals.
▶ 1:39:41Sure. Well, thank you. We we hope to have your continued input as we work to uh work to address that. Um Mr. Tyreek, um considering what Dr. Hoffman just said about the benefits cliff, the threat of a benefits cliff.
▶ 1:39:55Um uh you'd mentioned the ABLE accounts and um this was actually a um priority of mine for reconciliation and I'm really grateful that we were able to um to get it across the finish line in the bill that we just passed. Um, I've heard a lot from my from the treasurer in Pennsylvania how individuals with disabilities have been able to access this program uh to to build their assets without the threat of losing benefits.
▶ 1:40:25So, could you just talk a little bit more about how your able account helped you to work towards financial independence uh while returning to work?
▶ 1:40:38Yes. So, um, I would say, like I said, the the combination of services and support is critical, but specifically talking about AEL, I'm not even sure I could be competitively integrated employed without it simply because of that $2,000 asset limit that's set out by SSI and SSDI.
▶ 1:41:01because during that 9-month trial work period, um, between my wages and what I was receiving from SSDI and SSI, um, it well exceeded that $2,000 asset limit. And without the ABLE account, I wouldn't have been able to put that money anywhere, um, to be competitively integrated employed in the state of Kansas. So I would say it was almost more than critical um in me finding competitive integrated employment.
▶ 1:41:31Thank you.
▶ 1:41:32Well, yeah, thank you for sharing that. Again, thanks to each of you uh for being here. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:41:38Oh, thank you. And now, I'd like to call for uh her her turn at questioning for five minutes, the representative from Wisconsin, Miss Moore, who's a member of the Social Security subcommittee.
▶ 1:41:49Thank you so much, Mr. His. And I want to thank uh all of my uh all of our witnesses for appearing here today. You've had some very very compelling testimony. I've really learned a lot and appreciated it. Uh Mr. Tyrie, I'm going to address some comments to you and then I'm going to ask other people about your situation as well.
▶ 1:42:09I want to start out by talking about how incredibly proud all of us are that you have been able to model the the the you know self-reliance and ticket to work model and I I I think unfortunately you might be sort of unusual with regard to our disability uh population. I want to ask you just a few questions if you don't mind answering. Uh, you no longer get your dad's social security benefit from his record.
▶ 1:42:39Is that right?
▶ 1:42:44That is correct. Okay.
▶ 1:42:45Because I'm competitively integrated
▶ 1:42:47Okay. So, um, and so do you have healthcare through your employer? it is offered through my employer. But because of the knowledge that work the program working healthy um gave me, I found out that because I had an inherited disability that I fall under a certain title of social security disability um that was considered a protected medical group. So again, that's that
▶ 1:43:14right. So I mean that's the point that I'm making and maybe I can ask uh Mrs. Grer or or Miss Wallish. to me because a lot of folks who go to work like you would be at risk of losing their Medicaid or their Medicare. It just wouldn't be worth it to them even with the extra money to become quote unquote financially independent and not have because you need your healthcare. Uh sounds to me like all those operations and so on.
▶ 1:43:44So, um, uh, you're you, um, I guess the question that I have about Mr. Tyrie, Miss Groiger, maybe you have the answer to this. You know, he has a very sympathetic employer. Very happy to have him. Uh, it's hard to see him as a bartender at Summerfest in Milwaukee. I don't think he would make it, Mr. Tyrie. Rushing about.
▶ 1:44:08With all due respect, Mrs. more um without supports and services um that I lacked at the time to find competitive integrated employment at the Kansas KU Center on Disabilities. Um those supports and services weren't accurately provided by my local school system as I was a substitute teacher and nor were they provided when I worked at a former prison release program washing dishes at a Perkins where I couldn't disclose my disability or they likely wouldn't have hired me.
▶ 1:44:37Exactly. With all due respect,
▶ 1:44:39so the question that I have is if something were to happen to this employer, if the state of Kansas, for example, dropped these positions because of the financial straits that they found themselves in trying to replace Medicaid services or something, how hard would it be for him to get um his social security benefit returned? Uh and uh thank God he still has his medical. Mrs. is Gret.
▶ 1:45:08Yeah, I think you've hit on a problem here in that people are at risk of losing really critical benefits and it's so complex to get them in the first place to get them back to understand how you would do that that it does make it so much of a disincentive that people don't want to risk it.
▶ 1:45:28You don't want to risk your health care, which is enormously expensive, because you may be able to work part-time or work for a specific season um and may not have regular steady employment that you can depend on.
▶ 1:45:41Right. That's an absolute risk. I just want to ask you another personal question, Mr. Terry. Are you married?
▶ 1:45:48No. Currently scared of marriage, ma'am.
▶ 1:45:50You're scared of marriage? Well, you're probably a very intelligent person, but there are a lot of people on disability that want to get married. Go figure. Um, but we talk about benefit cliffs and and on SSI, I mean, and disability. And as I was looking through the very complicated rules, you just you just do not get married if you're on social security.
▶ 1:46:16Uh, Miss Groniger, can you just sort of briefly consume my time and explain to the committee why? And I there's a lot of churchgoing people who have contacted me because they don't want to live in sin, but they can't get married. Go and explain this, please.
▶ 1:46:30There are a couple of different reasons why you might not want to get married. One of them, if you are a disabled adult child, you can lose all of your benefits. So, these are people who get benefits through their parents' records. if they get married, they lose those benefits and it's a huge problem. Um, for SSI recipients, if you get married, your benefit is not the same benefit. You get a reduced benefit. It's really not a fair situation. You basically are penalized for getting married.
▶ 1:47:00So, if you have two people receiving SSI separately, they get basically two benefits. If you have them get married, they lose about 50% of that benefit.
▶ 1:47:09And they have to live in sin. I want you to take that in. Uh, colleagues, my my time I think they always make the clock go faster for me for some reason, but I would yield back, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:47:22Well, thank you. And now I recognize a member of the working welfare subcommittee, Representative from Indiana, Mr. Yakam.
▶ 1:47:29Thank you, Chairman Estes, for holding this hearing and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Estimates show that 60% of Social Security disability insurance and supplemental security income recipients report being interested in obtaining a new job, gaining employable skills, or advancing in a career.
▶ 1:47:46However, due to various hurdles ranging from complicated benefit requirements, asset limits, and benefit cliffs, individuals with disabilities are often undermployed or I've been a longtime believer that those who want to participate in our workforce should have every opportunity to do so. And we need to limit barriers to workforce participation, especially for disabled individuals.
▶ 1:48:09In my district and across the Hooser State, there are great success stories of organizations helping individuals with disabilities understand their benefits, address hurdles to employment, and successfully join the workforce. I'm excited to quickly highlight two of them.
▶ 1:48:25First, ADC is located in Elcart County, and they run a number of programs for individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities, including a skills and training center that provides tailored training to each individual's specific needs and abilities, as well as their goals. They also provide job matching and support to community businesses looking to hire ADC clients. Second, Bosma Enterprises is headquartered in Indianapolis and provides training and employment for blind and visually impaired individuals.
▶ 1:48:54They offer a variety of services including customized logistics and packaging support, IT services, and a wide array of health and safety items. They are proud to hold contracts with the Department of Veterans Affairs and are strong participants of the Ability One program. These two organizations are helping make important progress to address barriers to work for disabled individuals, but there's still much more work to be done.
▶ 1:49:20ABLE accounts are an important way individuals with SSI can save and invest money without hitting their asset limits. ABLE accounts are a tax-free savings account that are available to cover qualified expenses while maintaining SSI and Medicaid Mr. Tyrie, thank you for sharing your story and your pathway to employment.
▶ 1:49:43In your written testimony, you stated that being able to open an ABLE account allowed you to save for things like a car to get to and from work and other supportive supporting technology that is not typically covered by Medicaid or Medicare. Can you talk about how the ability to save money in an ABLE account without losing your benefits played a role in your journey to achieving independence and having a job? I will say based off of just my experience, I'll give you one example.
▶ 1:50:11So I I drive a vehicle, right, as stated there and um it's just a basic Toyota Corolla, you know, and I I commute from work from Topeka to Lawrence, which is roughly a 30 minute drive. So, I undergo more regular maintenance, oil changes, you know, things just happen to vehicles, you know, when they're being abused, uh, used for that many that much mileage.
▶ 1:50:35Um, and it seems like every time I go in the shop, um, that fix is usually north of $1,200, if not over that $2,000 asset limit. So, um, just logistically, just the topic of transportation alone, I would not have been able to get to work in a reliable fashion and trust my vehicle on a daily basis to get to work without that able savings account.
▶ 1:51:04So, it has been critical in my journey to competitive integrated employment. And I thank you for your question.
▶ 1:51:10You bet. You know, additionally, uh, something I hear from Hoosiers is how the complexity of returning to work for SSI beneficiaries can be daunting and confusing, thus inhibiting individuals from participating in the workforce. SSI beneficiaries often get misinformation regarding the return to work process, thus scaring individuals from even attempting to return to work because of the belief that they will lose their benefits and their healthcare. Mr. Dr.
▶ 1:51:35Tyrie, can you please discuss how misinformation can hamper SSI beneficiaries along their return to work
▶ 1:51:43I can and um I don't think I would have the most articulate and academic language to kind of convey this this systemic problem, but what I would do is direct you to our website kucd.ku.edu edu and we have a myth busting sheet amongst our employment first tab and we also have um facts surrounding competitive integrated employment and uh those two flyers have done I can't say how
▶ 1:52:13much good for myself at least in the work I do kind of discussing what the facts are around competitive integrated employment and what the myths are. I appreciate you sharing your your website in uh your testimony and your answer here today because the work that you're doing is really I think helpful in in helping as you said demystify what it takes to actually return to work if you're someone who wants to go to work but you're on one of these programs. So I thank you for being here today and thank you for highlighting the the great things that you are doing out there. Mr.
▶ 1:52:43Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:52:44Well, thank you. Now I'd like to recognize the work and welfare sub welfare subcommittee member representative from California miss two for five minutes for questioning.
▶ 1:52:53Thank you Mr. Chair. Uh I want to set the record straight here for all my Republican colleagues talk about wanting to support people with disabilities. The actions that they have do the opposite. Our nation's social security disability programs are a lifeline for disabled Americans, providing basic income for people with severe and long-lasting medical impairments.
▶ 1:53:16The eligibility requirements are strict and the benefits are extremely modest, just $19,000 a year for those on SSDI and $9,000 a year for adults with disabilities on SSI. But year after year, the Trump administration and Republicans in Congress have tried to slash these modest benefits. just to name a few.
▶ 1:53:39During his first administration, President Trump sought more than $70 billion dollar in cuts in Social Security disability benefits, including plans to make it harder for older, severely disabled workers to qualify, to throw disabled people off benefits by subjecting them to more frequent paperwork reviews, and to cut retroactive benefits in half for newly eligible disabled workers.
▶ 1:54:09And then over the past three fiscal years, the Republican Study Committee representing more than 80% of House Republicans has proposed a slew of harmful cuts to Social Security disability like reducing benefits to the poverty level, timelmiting benefits, making it harder to qualify, and forcing disabled weight uh workers to wait five years for Medicare eligibility.
▶ 1:54:34And earlier this year, House Republicans included billions of dollars in cuts to SSI on their initial so-called menu of options for budget reconciliation in order to pay for tax cuts for billionaires. So, if my Republican colleagues are interested in exploring ways to ensure that Social Security disability beneficiaries who are able to work can do so without losing their vital benefits or their health care.
▶ 1:55:02we stand ready to work with you, but not if the main motive in getting them to work is to kick vulnerable people off their And so, Miss Growner, I'm deeply alarmed by the collapse of Social Security's customer service under President Trump. His administration is taking a wrecking ball to the agency, forcing out more than 7,000 SSA workers or about one in eight employees.
▶ 1:55:31My office has been flooded with calls from constituents. They g can't get through to SSA on the phones. They're facing long waits at field offices and they're struggling to get any help from the agency at all. I heard from one constituent who said, "I depend on my disability check to keep a roof over my head and food in my mouth. Not just social security, but Medicare, Medicaid, and SNAP as well. They all keep me alive and healthy, not homeless and starving in the streets.
▶ 1:56:01This is literally a life and death issue for me." So, Miss Growner, how can the quality of SSA's overall customer service impact the effectiveness of a return to work strategy for people with
▶ 1:56:17I think you've really hit on something in that you must have the customer service as a base if you really want to give people the ability to go back to work. If you can't get information because you've been waiting on the phone for hours, you're not going to trust that you have access to your benefits if you work. Similarly, if you go to a field office and you're told that you have to make an appointment, but then you can't make an appointment and so you can't talk to a person. You're going through all these hoops.
▶ 1:56:46It's not going to make people feel as though they can try to work and still keep their benefits. And I think that's the kind of thing that we are worried about and that we've been hearing from advocates. You know, depending on where you are in the country, your experience with social security can vary greatly. It may take you an hour. It may take you four hours. But it's not good.
▶ 1:57:07And that shouldn't be anyone's experience, no matter where they live in this country if we're trying to say that you can trust that social security is going to be there for you and help you if you want to work. And also I'm deeply disturbed about uh the uh use potential use of AI in these complex and high stakes determination of eligibility. Can you say something about that? Uh you the use of AI in social security disability determinations.
▶ 1:57:35Sure. I think that AI can be a really useful tool. Um, but it shouldn't be a replacement for experienced staff and people and especially for seniors and people with disabilities. You have to make sure that you're giving them full access to the customer service that they need. And we all know that AI is not perfect. Um, we cannot have people with disabilities and seniors as test subjects to try out AI.
▶ 1:58:04we have to make sure that we're using it properly and that it is serving our needs. Um, the National Academy of Social Insurance actually put together a report around AI and emerging technology and disability specific to SSA. Um, and they talked about the different guard rails and principles that are necessary when you're thinking about how to use AI. Uh, one of which is that we can't use AI to make decisions about denials. We can't have AI denying benefits.
▶ 1:58:32We need to have people who are looking at these applications, who are talking to people and engaging with people and not just replace them with AI because we're not going to be successful.
▶ 1:58:43Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:58:45Well, thank you. And um I just want to mention that, you know, this hearing is not about work requirements for individuals with disabilities. We shouldn't have be framing it that way. I mean, dis disabled individuals have always been exempt from work requirements in federal programs and and that will continue to happen. We want to look forward to being able to talk about opportunities for folks that want to return to work and and how they can do that. Uh and and kind of how do we get past this trap system that we're in now, making sure the federal programs aren't an obstacle to being in the way of work.
▶ 1:59:15So, um with that, uh excuse me, I'll call on a member of the Social Security subcommittee, Representative from Utah, Mr. Moore.
▶ 1:59:23Thank you, Chairman. Uh represent Utah dig into these issues quite a bit. Recent research from a Utah-based Southerntherland Institute found that of statewide current and recent safety net participants had at some point turn down an opportunity to work or earn more because they were worried about triggering a benefit cliff.
▶ 1:59:47It's because in many instances the loss of benefits can be greater than or close to the additional earnings when their income increases. uh this um this Southerntherland Institute, you know, digs into this issue a lot, provides an enormous amount of thought to this research and and solutions. Mrs. Full Circle Employment works with individuals with disabilities in order to help them get back to work.
▶ 2:00:14In your experience, how does the benefit cliff affect an individual's ability and willingness to to go to work? And can you elaborate on any fear associated with this issue? fear is definitely part of it. Yeah, there's no doubt about it, right? Um, people want to work, but there is that fear because
▶ 2:00:37there's so many misconceptions out there about the benefits to begin with. They hear this, they hear that, social security tells them this, someone else tells them that. Right.
▶ 2:00:45So, that that's part of the issue. Um, there's also just simple plain math like you alluded to, right? So if I earn this much, my benefit is this much. This is what it equals. Like you have to make a decision because of that, right? So there are and there are only a few trained staff within the social security offices that are able to implement and understand the protections that are there. So yeah, there's definitely fear around that cliff.
▶ 2:01:14Yeah. And I think like you said, there's a lot of misconceptions. Uh and so sometimes the fear is unwarranted,
▶ 2:01:20but there's also the brass tax of it actually being the numbers where if it there is a there is a legitimate benefits cliff that u we have just failed to be able to to to solve this. It should be a very bipartisan issue and um you know I'm hopeful that that we can work towards that. And so I appreciate your work on that and helping and supporting those that that are in these um that are participating in some of these programs to help them help help them with that. Um my next question uh will be healthcare related.
▶ 2:01:51I was going to ask Mr. Tyrie, but if anybody has uh any perspective on this, let let me go to Mr. Sanderson actually. Uh it's clear that American businesses, they want to hire and promote, right? They want to hire and promote the best person for the job. However, we've heard today that that for those receiving disability insurance benefits, it's it's not that simple to say yes to a new job and next promotion or more hours. How do employers navigate these rules? And if the program was simpler, do you think that employers would be more effective at providing opportunities for individuals with
▶ 2:02:22Well, thank you for the question. I think the short answer to the last part of that is yes. Anything that's simpler makes it easier to make decisions. Um, it some of this is driven by the kind of difficulties in understanding benefits to begin with. Um, so I mean I I've experienced situations where somebody was telling me something. it was really difficult to know whether or not that was true because I wasn't the person receiving the benefit so I can go try to look it up on their behalf. I'm probably in a worse position to find the right answer than them.
▶ 2:02:50So, uh it really does it it kind of is a problem that ends up creating um challenges at both ends because on the employer side it is difficult to navigate and there are some instances where people are actually just scared to share because they've shared before and it's led to them either not being hired or being released. Um something Mr. Tyrie shared. So I I think we do have the demystification I think was a word used earlier.
▶ 2:03:14I think that is crucial to simplify all of these programs and benefits because it will make it easier for the employer too and it will make the information flowing to the employer from the recipient more accurate. So yeah, I I think in general um simplification would be extremely helpful for both employer and recipient.
▶ 2:03:32Yeah. And my my kind of eye opening moment with this is when you actually look at the graphical data of the way these benefits work and where those cliffs come in and how it could be, you know, frustrating for both employer and employee.
▶ 2:03:46Uh there are there's so much good in our society that wants to support folks with disabilities or special needs and and um a big part of that is is the workforce capabilities that they're so much more that they can do that they're that they're that they're um sort of being limited in right now. And so appreciate all of your support on identifying these issues and trying to communicate it properly. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:04:14Well, thank you. Now recognize the representative from Nevada, Mr. Horsford, for five minutes for
▶ 2:04:20Thank you uh to chairs Estus and La Hood as well as our ranking members Larsson and Davis. Yesterday I sat down with representatives from Opportunity Village, a nonprofit that transforms lives for Neadans with intellectual and developmental disabilities through training, employment, day services, arts, and residential support.
▶ 2:04:44I want to tell you a story about Vanessa who proudly told me about her job at Nellis Air Force Base. For her, work is not just a paycheck. It is dignity, purpose, and belonging. And Vanessa's story is not an outlier. Every single one of us has constituents with similar expectations and experiences.
▶ 2:05:08Miss Growner, can you quickly outline the kinds of disabilities and conditions that qualify individuals for benefits from the Social Security Administration? It's a wide range. It's very significant disabilities that can be your your body, it can be mental impairments. They can be the entire range.
▶ 2:05:34But the basic idea is that these are significant and they are impairments that make it impossible if not difficult for you to hold very regular steady employment um over a long period of
▶ 2:05:49And as I expect you'll confirm, what barriers most often prevent people with disabilities from sustaining full-time
▶ 2:05:58I think that it's a lot of different things. And so for people depending on the disability, it can be not being able to get to a job, not being able not having the supports and services that you need to be able to support you as you're trying to work. And so I think that it really is around it. It varies based on the individual. Um but it leads you to not have the support and ability to be able to keep your employment.
▶ 2:06:23Yeah. And that's what Vanessa shared with me. She wants to do more. uh but she's concerned about the changes particularly to the eligibility criteria and the lack of supports that are available for her and others like her uh to receive uh these benefits.
▶ 2:06:44Now, Miss Growner, when the commissioner was here from SSI testified in June, I pressed him to commit to keeping field and hearing offices open. He refused. What does that mean in practice for people with disabilities seeking in-person support not being able to obtain them?
▶ 2:07:07In ser in-person customer service support is really critical for seniors and people with disabilities. Sometimes they cannot get the help that they need online or over the internet or over the phone. It really is important and imperative for SSA to have actual people that uh customers can go to and for people with disabilities and seniors, this is part of how they're able to function and how they're able to, if they choose, return to work.
▶ 2:07:38And what's so troubling is that every day it feels like there's a new bombshell report that's being published about efforts to reduce the efficiency of this vital agency or blatant mistreatment of sensitive data. Since January, they have taken a chainsaw to the Social Security Administration, pushing out more than 7,000 employees, about one in eight workers. The fallout is everywhere.
▶ 2:08:06And I know uh my office has received calls as I'm sure my colleagues have reported uh about calls and visits from constituents who cannot get through uh on the phones, wait hours and field offices or who are trapped in backlogs and that is unacceptable. Uh Mr.
▶ 2:08:27Chairman, I'd like to enter into the and ask for unanimous consent a report by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities entitled Trump administration poised to cut SSI benefits for nearly 400,000 low-income disabled and older
▶ 2:08:52Without objection, so ordered. While just a proposal, uh, at this time, I think we can all agree that kick kicking our most vulnerable constituents off of their life sustaining benefits is not a way to support the quality of life of these individuals, let alone to get them back to work. So, uh, I'm ringing the alarm bell now.
▶ 2:09:19This proposal by this administration should be dead on arrival if it moves forward. And I hope that my colleagues on both sides of the aisle can agree with me that it's time to put our constituents above the interest uh of those who were seeking to undermine the Social Security Administration. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:09:42Well, thank you. Now I recognize the representative from Iowa, Mr. Finstra. Thank you, Chairman Estes and Chairman Lehood, Ranking Member Davis and Larson. Thank you uh for having this uh hearing. I want to thank the witnesses uh for all that you do. I read your testimony. It was very good. Um I think we can all agree Social Security, disability insurance uh and disability programs serve a purpose and they serve a purpose for work incentives.
▶ 2:10:07Uh, I think we all here want to have the ability to work and and everybody in our society, uh, we want to make sure we help and promote that. Uh, Miss Miss Wallish, the complexity of returning to work for SSI beneficiaries can be daunting, can be confusing. Um, often SSI beneficiaries rely on false rumors, innuendo, innuendos regarding return to work processes and can tend to scare them off. Um, we have a chart. Boom.
▶ 2:10:38Right there. All right. So, you look at this chart. All right. It's very complex. It's actually scares me. But is there a way, you know, I I've taught lean and kaizen management, you know, to try to find ways to make things more efficient and effective. Is there anything that we can do to make this easier when it comes to return to work? Uh, Mr. Walsh
▶ 2:11:02for SSI?
▶ 2:11:03Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. SI really
▶ 2:11:06I I can't read that. No.
▶ 2:11:08So SSI does have very complex uh rules, right? Uh there's a complex calculation that's done. In fact, I have an Excel spreadsheet that does the calculation for me so I don't have to think about it anymore, right? Um but yes, I I think that um for people, you know, that that calculation is done to determine the reduction of their benefit check. So, as wages go up, benefit check goes down, right? It's a two for one, one for two.
▶ 2:11:38is there a way to make that easier?
▶ 2:11:40Well, let me ask you this. Let me make it simpler for you. I I get that. You know, I mean, I think if you and I work together, we could do, you know, we can figure this out. But, but that being said, we got bureaucracy. Um, how do we uh get these people to not be scared of going down the process? Because I think what happens is they start going down the process and they go, "Ah, I'm out." Yeah. And that's what we don't want. We want them to work.
▶ 2:12:04So any thoughts on that?
▶ 2:12:06Yeah. So with SSI, the nice thing is it's not an all,
▶ 2:12:09it's not an all ornone, right? It is a gradual reduction. So as someone goes back to work and becomes more comfortable in their employment and realize the benefits that they are having from work and oh, I can save and oh, I can open an ABLE account and I can do all these different things. That's going to to to help them, right? So, but when it does go to zero, so let's say it goes okay, there is a wonderful protection called 1619b that helps keep the Medicaid.
▶ 2:12:39We already heard health insurance is like the most important thing. Many people don't care about the SSI check because it's so little anyway. It's less than poverty, right?
▶ 2:12:46They want the Medicaid.
▶ 2:12:47They want the Medicaid. They want the eligibility for the Medicaid
▶ 2:12:50and they don't want to lose that. Right.
▶ 2:12:51Right. That's that's the piece. So, the Medicaid buyin. So 1619b is there up to a threshold. Every state has a different threshold. Ideally, it'd be really nice if there was a way that it was like one number instead of every state having a different number, but again,
▶ 2:13:04can we do that?
▶ 2:13:05I don't think so. I wish.
▶ 2:13:08But Medicaid buyin also. So, if you get above that threshold now, you're still out of luck, right? Right. You don't get you don't get Medicaid. And that is critical. I have so many stories about people where they stop working.
▶ 2:13:21Yes. Well, you can see it also they don't have insurance and they're done. the the the uh individual Kushelle who I highlighted in my opening remarks he he stopped because of that but we were able to create an individualized threshold so there are there are all these nuances that people don't know about and that's why getting connected to benefits counselors or the services can help with that but
▶ 2:13:43thank you thank you I got one more question Mr. Tyrie, I'll ask you this. Um, relates to major issues in workforce development groups in my state and across the country. Navigating the rehabilitation service administration and the department of education. Uh, we have again burd burdensome time consuming paperwork that needs to be done and preventing help for most people. And I can go into examples. I'm not going to do that. I don't have time. But is there things that we can do? Again, I I go into this what can we do to be more efficient and effective?
▶ 2:14:13Do you have any ideas here? Any thoughts?
▶ 2:14:17And you said regard in regards to vocational rehabilitation,
▶ 2:14:20right? Right.
▶ 2:14:21Um I would say one of the number one things that people are lacking knowledge on is the fact that VR can actually provide tuition assistance, uh assist of uh work clothes as I detailed in my testimony. And I have talked to many families who were not knowledgeable of this fact.
▶ 2:14:43Right. No. And you're right and that's exactly right. But the the key note there is how do we make it more effective that they the paper paperwork bureaucracy is incredible and that's what we have to work on that it's burdensome. Anyway, I have to yield back. Thank you. Thank you.
▶ 2:14:58I would say the the easiest way that we can improve that is within the local school school system and not requiring the person with the disability or their family to invite a VR representative to their 504 IEP meeting just to have them there as a
▶ 2:15:14Right. Time's up. Thank you.
▶ 2:15:15Excellent. Thank you. Now, I'd like to rec recognize from the work and welfare welfare subcommittee representative from Pennsylvania, Mr. Evans for five Thank you, chairman and ranking members. Congress capped the overpayment withholding rate for people receiving supplemented security income to only 10% of their monthly payment.
▶ 2:15:40Unfortunately, President Trump has quickly targeted vulnerable citizens and people with disabilities receiving Social Security payments which are not kept under this existing law when when they are over overpaid. Thanks to President Trump, seniors who are already struggling with high costs suddenly miss up to 50% of their monthly payments.
▶ 2:16:11The Social Security Administration should be focused on helping supporting people. This is why I introduced a bill with my fellow Democrats which would which would repayments to no more than 10% of the monthly benefits. Congress can and should be to protect all Americans from being punished by the Trump policies.
▶ 2:16:42Miss, if I get your name correct, what are some of the circum circles leading to these overpayments? And some people apply for individual repayments or overpayments on hardship grounds. What has your experience been with them?
▶ 2:17:01So, as a support center, we work with advocates who are trying to help their clients uh deal with these complexities. to your point, you can apply for waiverss, you can try to address overp payments, but it's not something that's easy. And it's really hard to help to get representation, to get help to do this. And so when you have overpayments, you're dealing with a lot of kind of stress and not knowing if you're going to be paid.
▶ 2:17:27And as you mentioned, with SSDI recipients, you can lose half of your monthly income. So having a bill um passed that would cap that overpayment to 10% would make a huge difference to people in their lives and not having to worry about losing half their income because they can't understand how else to deal with overpayments.
▶ 2:17:48And what do you can you tell us what do you think that would mean in terms of the benefit of of them? Tell us.
▶ 2:17:56The cap would make a huge difference. I am trying to imagine how I would be able to afford my housing, uh, transportation, medicine, all of the things that are basically basics with half of my monthly income suddenly cut off. And I don't think that it is something that we should expect people with disabilities and seniors to be able to do.
▶ 2:18:18So, you have any suggestions?
▶ 2:18:21I think that your bill is a very smart and wise way to help people deal with overpayments. You cap it. so that you're not taking away half of someone's monthly income.
▶ 2:18:32I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:18:36Thank you. And now I'd like to recognize uh Representative from Ohio, uh M Mr. Miller, for five minutes.
▶ 2:18:44Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are here to discuss how policymakers can support opportunities for individuals with disabilities to establish, renew, and strengthen their connection to the workforce. We should ensure that federal programs, excuse me, empower of all abilities and provide them with the tools that they need to reach their full potential. One of my top priorities since coming to Congress is to empower individuals, whatever their background, with the skills and access to workplace opportunities to build a fulfilling future.
▶ 2:19:14This includes leading the training and nutritional stability act as well as other efforts to empower all in our nation with the tools needed to I'm encouraged by initiatives such as those in my home state of Ohio through opportunities for Ohioans with disabilities. This effort includes partnerships with Cleveland State University, which provides individualized support, skill development, and job placement services to help individuals with disabilities reach their vocational goals.
▶ 2:19:42Also, the Ohio Association of People Supporting Employment First enhances employment opportunities for individuals with disabilities, building practical work skills. Among the issues I would like to focus on today are the opportunities under social security such as return to work incentives to encourage employment where possible, reduce the need for government benefits, and build independence all while strengthening the fiscal soundness of the social security program.
▶ 2:20:07One of these initiatives include SSA's Ticket to Work program, which allows eligible disability insurance and social security income to voluntarily obtain employment services, vocational rehabilitation, or other services to achieve workplace goals. I look forward to hearing from our panelists how and other incentives empower those with disabilities to move toward financial independence and connect them with the services and the support they need to truly succeed within the workforce.
▶ 2:20:36and thank you all for being here again today. Mr. Tyrie, you mentioned in your testimony people with disabilities deserve to be able to maintain benefits that support their health and independence. However, the current $2,000 asset limit is a huge barrier to those with disabilities seeking employment. Please share how the ABLE accounts from the federal achieving a better life experience act will allow individuals with disabilities to save money in a tax advantage account without losing essential benefits.
▶ 2:21:08It's really quite simple. Um, it's one of the only ways, if not the only way that they can house monies over $2,000 without losing essential Medicaid, Medicare benefits as well as other benefits.
▶ 2:21:25Um, and also like I said in my own personal experience, it has helped me on uh the transportation front as a lot of things that involve vehicles are over $2,000 as well as many forms of supportive technology are over $2,000, etc. Um, so I think it's a I think it's a great u support for people with disabilities or service, however you want to frame that.
▶ 2:21:53And I don't think uh there's enough knowledge out there for the common person to know about it.
▶ 2:22:01Yeah. And I just want to say thank you and thank you for your testimony. I I really appreciate when we have people who are on the panel who have lived experiences going through what we're actually working with and trying to achieve at the end of the day, which is a shared goal between our side and the other side trying to find that middle ground. Uh but just thank you for your very powerful story. And it's stories like that that have such an impact on legislators like me uh and probably speaking for everyone on this committee. And so thank you not only for your answer, but thank you for your story in the beginning and your testimony.
▶ 2:22:30Those are the stories and the lived experiences that truly move people like me because you are dealing with it firsthand and you are the subject matter expert when it comes to this. So I truly appreciate uh your time here today. Uh Mr. Sanderson. In my congressional district and throughout the country, we hear from a broad cross-section of industries the common challenge of meeting workforce needs to build a strong economy.
▶ 2:22:54You mentioned in your testimony that your involvement was spurred through an innovative partnership not born out of sense of corporate social responsibility but out of quote cleareyed assessment of our business needs seeking a pool of qualified dedicated individuals and we had roles that needed to be filled as the title of this hearing is tapping untapped talent in America. How can empowering those with broader spectrum of abilities serve to spur economic capacity and meet workforce challenges?
▶ 2:23:26Yeah, so I the the relationship with down center innovations I think is a proxy example for a broader set of principles that really apply to multiple industries in multiple ways. um in the light industrial space, pickpack, fill, um kitting, depacking, repacking, we have a lot of seasonal work, a lot of work that is tied to holidays and because of that it is difficult to maintain a workforce um consistently. So we end up using a lot of temp services.
▶ 2:23:51Temp services are quite regularly pulling a pool of people who can't access the employer directly because of their background. Um so this this intersection of social service world and employment especially at the staffing level side they collide with Down syndrome innovations.
▶ 2:24:05One benefit that we got immediately was they were working with such a big pool of candidates self- advocates that there was all kinds of different schedule needs so we could flex in and out of seasonal work and not have to worry about somebody needing full-time employment but us only being able to employ them for three weeks at a time. That is a very very big challenge in that space. I'm sure that's true of other industries.
▶ 2:24:27So I think that's that's one of the benefits of these kinds of partnerships is that there are organizations who are actually already creating space for that exact kind of variability. Um that works phenomenally. Uh also on very specific things, things like quality control. Um there are individuals who if you tell them find every single dent in can they will not miss one. There are also individuals who'll be looking at their phone who'll be distracted.
▶ 2:24:51Um, so there really is an extraordinary ability baked in um that is far superior to conventional labor for some of these groups that we've marginalized or just otherwise because of perception assume that's just not the right fit. Uh the last thing I'll say there is that our own supervisors on the floor there was a hesitancy because they were worried about saying the wrong thing and working with Down Syndrome Innovations team.
▶ 2:25:14Um, so again, DSI was great in educating us that what their what their self- advocates wanted was the same experience everybody else got. So the way that you mitigate that difference is to just treat people exactly the same. Uh, and that was extremely helpful for our team to hear. And we had supervisors who went from a little concerned to very quickly saying, I only want to work with their team and I only want to work with our self- advocates.
▶ 2:25:39Uh and I think that is true in general of people who are coming to the table with things that we've identified as disabilities. It's not a monolith. It's broad brush, but in general there's a different perspective there. It's a perspective that fits very very well with somebody who wants to learn, grow, and advance. So I I just think that there's just it truly is untapped, and it doesn't need to be.
▶ 2:26:00Thank you, Mr. Samson. On time. Thank
▶ 2:26:02Thank you. Uh thank thank you for your questions. And now I'd like to represent uh to uh recognize the representative from Alabama uh Representative Su for 5 minutes for questioning.
▶ 2:26:13Thank you so much. I want to thank all of our witnesses uh for testifying today. Today I speak on behalf of 164,000 Social Security beneficiaries that I represent in Alabama. To say that I'm upset with my Republican colleagues and Trump the Trump administration's cuts to Social Security is really an understatement. President Trump proposed more than $70 billion in cuts to Social Security and SSI disability in his budget.
▶ 2:26:41A budget is a reflection of one's values. You fund that which you value. And frankly, it really disheartening me that so many of my vulnerable um seniors and those that are disabled have less services because of this administration. Dogefield offices and phone services. I believe that that it shows a lack of respect for those who are more vulnerable in our society.
▶ 2:27:10In so many ways, it's as if my colleagues are turning their back on millions of Americans. This was evident with the passage of the big ugly bill, whatever you law in July with Medicaid cuts uh to over 70 uh sorry o over for over seven 17 million Americans, many of whom are dependent upon a monthly social security check.
▶ 2:27:36This administration has shown a blatant disrespect and uh contempt for both the individuals and families who have rightfully earned these social security benefits. As ranking member of the Ways and Means Oversight Subcommittee, I have a duty to inquire and advocate on behalf of my constituents with the implementation of this unorthodox changes that are occurring at Social Security. It literally breaks my heart.
▶ 2:28:00I've had constituents who've waited on the phone to speak to someone two hours only to have someone say hello and hang up. We are witnessing in real time the marginalization of social security beneficiaries with disability claims. For those who live in rural America, this is even more evident with the barriers that have been put in place by this administration.
▶ 2:28:25Over the August recess, I had the opportunity to meet with representatives from many of the hospitals in my district, especially the rural communities. They all had one message in common. They reiterated the potential scale back of services and distinct and the distinct possibility of closure of hospitals because of the deep cuts in the uh big ugly bill.
▶ 2:28:48My staff in Alabama has been assisting one constituent in my district that resides in a rural community undergoing multiple medical examination by physicians since last October to complete their social security claim. Aside from the absurdity that it's taken more than a year for this individual to complete the necessary medical evaluations to close this case, this individual currently must travel over 30 miles in each direction to see a physician.
▶ 2:29:18This would be a strenuous task for anyone, let alone someone with a disability. Uh, Miss Groner, uh, if health providers are forced to close their doors because of this big ugly bill, what impact will this have on constituents like mine who have a disability, who live in rural America, who lack transportation, and who have basic needs?
▶ 2:29:41Um, they're going to get sicker. They're not going to be able to access the health care that they need. Um, we work with advocates who try to help seniors and people with disabilities and Medicaid is really vital.
▶ 2:29:55And so for 17 million people to lose access to health care means that they are not going to be able to have that level of care that they need and they are not going to be well and I don't think that in that situation we can expect that anyone would be able to work even if they wanted to. Isn't it true that um people with disabilities who return to work sometimes are more susceptible to getting sicker and having to stop work?
▶ 2:30:25I think that that's a fear that they have because you don't know what's going to happen when you try to work and you may have periods where you are able to work and you may have periods where your health is suffering and you are impaired and you need to access your health care. You need to take time off. You need to know that your benefits are still there. And I think that goes to the issue of the risk and the reward and not wanting to lose the health care that you need so that you can continue to work if that's what you want to do.
▶ 2:30:55Absolutely. 17 million people over the next 10 years could lose their u health insurance. And it's frightening that we are still debating whether or not to extend uh the Affordable Care Act uh subsidies that allow so many people to be able to afford their health care. With that, I will uh yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 2:31:16Thank you. Now, I'd like to recognize the uh representative from Florida, uh Representative Bean.
▶ 2:31:21Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. A very good afternoon to you. Good afternoon, Ways and Means, and good afternoon to our panelists. Thank you for coming forward. Guess what? You'll always get to say you testified before Congress. I've listened to your testimony and read your testimony and I think I know what disabled Americans want. It's the same thing everybody wants. They want a chance to uh have meaningful work. They want a chance to provide for themselves uh and their families. They don't want to be a burden.
▶ 2:31:51They want to they want to be in the ring. And I know our uh our rules sometimes prevent them from going forward. And I understand I I you've made it clear of uh some of the complexities that need to be addressed. But in order to do that, we have to have a very strong robust social security program in order to have the muscle to back everybody up that's paid into it and those that depend on it.
▶ 2:32:19And and uh how about this for some facts? This right here, this hearing, we've looked it up uh to have a hearing, a joint hearing on removing individuals, removing barriers to work and supporting opportunities for individuals with disabilities. This is the first hearing of this sort in 10 years. That goes to you, Mr. Chairman. That says to you, Mr. Chairman, that you want to work with everybody uh in making Social Security as strong as it possibly can be.
▶ 2:32:48But my friends on the other side of the aisle have already attacked Republicans and that's why we have to uh figure out how we're going to strengthen it because truth be told in nine years social security won't have the money to pay all the promises. And so the article of which some of my colleagues have reported that we want to make cuts to disabilities which is which is not true.
▶ 2:33:10President Biden during the previous administration actually exceeded his authority in ex greatly expanding eligibility to people that were never uh getting certain types of disability benefits and social security uh income at the time. So, President Trump is looking at uh going back uh to a time where uh social security was a little bit stronger. So, I want that for the record. Uh but we also have to agree this panel, we're the ones that are going to solve the problem.
▶ 2:33:39And so if we come into the safe harbor, we have to learn that uh we don't have to attack everybody. We don't have to attack each other with ideas and and perhaps we don't need to attack you guys or you don't need to attack us, but
▶ 2:33:50we have to be the leaders, the adults in the room to fix social security because Americans are depending on us. People with disabilities are depending on us. Everybody's depending on us. Gentlemen will not yield because I've waited four hours for my brief two minutes of time. And I'm sorry. I would love to have a discussion. It just doesn't generate that right now. But I do appreciate with the spirit of which you wish to uh debate uh representative. So here's my question. My question is we need work.
▶ 2:34:17Uh and in my home state of Florida right now, we're challenged to fill all of the work the the jobs that uh that need to be filled. In fact, for every hundred jobs, we only have 88 people to fill them. Mr. Sanderson, you have already come out of the gate. your organization has uh found the hidden gem of hiring people that are already receiving SSI and SSDI in order to address the workers uh the worker participation crisis.
▶ 2:34:47Can you explain uh the benefits how that work? Can you do it uh quickly because we're in lightning round. I'm in a hurry. What say you, Mr. Sanderson?
▶ 2:34:54I'll do it as quick as I can. Um I I do I think the the basic idea of aligning what you need and then what are we looking for when we're looking for employees? We're looking for people who are engaged, who are consistent, who are reliable, and who build a culture of positivity and growth mindset. Again,
▶ 2:35:12it's not it's not charity. You're you you're I mean, they're getting value. You're getting value. They're getting value. That's the way it should work. And you've discovered the hidden gold mine, right? Is that correct?
▶ 2:35:20Yes, I think so.
▶ 2:35:22Very good. Miss Wallace, you have a great uh pathway and testimony of bringing people. You're the bridge. You're the bridge of getting people to the uh workland, the land of work. What is your secret to success?
▶ 2:35:38I think that one of the most important things is helping people understand and um reduce their fear about work and about losing benefits. You've made it clear that we can we can enter a place where they can work, where we can make some changes, where they can still have the safety knowing that uh there is a place they can come to, but they have things to offer and I think we should uh we should offer them. So, hey, with 18 seconds, I want to yield to the gentleman uh Mr.
▶ 2:36:07Neil if he wishes to
▶ 2:36:10Mr. Larson. Yeah, of course it's Mr. Larson. Everybody knows it's Mr. I just say to my colleague, it's pretty simple. Let's have a vote. I mean, and why why can't we bring stuff to the before this committee uh in the public where we don't have an open debate and straightforward. There's nothing to hide. There's nothing there's no more excuses.
▶ 2:36:39We haven't, we being Congress, no one else, hasn't addressed this issue in more than 50 years.
▶ 2:36:47Got it. Thank you. Yield back, Mr.
▶ 2:36:49All right. Great. Thank you. And now I recognize the representative from California, Mr. Gomez, for five minutes for questions.
▶ 2:36:56Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Republicans are in CYA mode. cover your mode because the bill they just passed, the big so-called beautiful bill is so unpopular that they're trying to rebrand it.
▶ 2:37:17It was a disaster for working people because they were literally gutting programs that help working people and and giving that money to the ultra wealthy and the largest corporations. literally stealing from the the working class to give to the wealthy, the largest trans uh transfer of wealth in our history by cutting Medicaid, by cutting uh food benefits, by going after the programs that people rely on and
▶ 2:37:49having people on their side of the aisle, within the administration, within the Senate, say what they truly think about Social Security, which is the largest anti-poverty program in the country. What are they? What do they say? Scott Bean, Secretary of the Treasury, said uh the one big beautiful bill is a backdoor for privatizing Social Security. I didn't say that. I don't think any of my colleagues on our side of the aisle had ever said that.
▶ 2:38:18He's the Secretary of the Treasury. He said it. And you go down the list. Elon Musk, Social Security is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time. secretary uh the so-called secretary uh social security commissioner Frank Biziano said he did he had to Google what the position was about. He had to Google it. You can you can look it up. He had to Google what the social social security commissioner was about.
▶ 2:38:48And then Secretary Howard Lunkin, he said, "Let's say social security didn't send out their checks this month. my mother-in-law who's 94, she wouldn't call and complain, "Duh, you're worth $3.4 billion." So, that's how they approach this issue. Like, go Mike Lee. I'm here to tell you now one thing that you'll probably haven't ever heard from a politician. It's my objective to phase out Social Security. Ron Johnson, it's illegal Ponzi scheme.
▶ 2:39:17Just go on and on and on. So what they're trying to do is have this hearing to say there's nothing to look at that folks. There's no there's no we we don't believe in that when every single action they have taken says that they're not for it. Like they should just be straight. Some of them are for it. But I would say that the the main orthodoxy of the Republican party is to privatize social security or get rid of it. Plain and simple.
▶ 2:39:47Like that's what they were they're not saying. That's why we're having this hearing. If they really wanted to negotiate a bill, let's negotiate a bill because we do have to deal with this problem in the long term. And then the amount of people that are being kicked off of disability of of uh Medicaid is crazy. Republicans actually think that kicking people off of disability, they'll fill our uh worker shortage. Um just ask secretary of the Agriculture.
▶ 2:40:13She said, "Oh, we'll have plenty of workers if we tighten up requirements and they're forced to go to work." Well, we we know that 80% of people on disability are 50 years or older. I don't like what do they think um picking uh watermelon is like or picking strawberries or going into the fields? It's tough gig. Like my dad was a brasto, which was an immigrant farm worker back in 58 to 60. That was hard work.
▶ 2:40:42And let's go go talk about the immigrants in this country, undocumented immigrants. How much did they pay towards social security in 2023? 26 billion dollars into a program that they are not going to see any benefits for. But now they're trying to round them up, ship them off. You know, originally it was supposed to be going after criminals.
▶ 2:41:05I don't know how many criminals actually work in uh in a laundry room, work at a car wash, work at a day labor sites. I don't know MS-13 gang members who have day jobs. it's this is insane.
▶ 2:41:21Like so they're in CYA mode and they're doing this hearing because they know that that big so-called beautiful bill is really just one ugly mess and it's hurting the American people. And you that's not even getting me started on their tariffs. Like the tariffs that they used to be against, now they're four, that is attacks on on working men and women. Who does it hit hardest?
▶ 2:41:51People on disability, people on social security, people that are trying to struggle to get by, but you don't hear them talking about it because there's only one uh issue that they care about, and that's Donald J. Trump. With that, I yield back.
▶ 2:42:06Thank you. Now, I'd like uh to recognize uh for five minutes for questions on our hearing topic about returning to work uh representative from Texas, Mr. Moran.
▶ 2:42:17Thank you, Mr. chairman and thank you for holding this very important hearing. We always want to uh have a system set up where people that want to work can return to work. That brings such dignity and value to their lives and that's what they want whether or not they're disabled or not. Uh I'm thankful for this opportunity to talk specifically about the SSDI program and those with disabilities in America that want to return to work and want to be more productive in their everyday lives.
▶ 2:42:45I also want to start out with a shout out to our chairman of financial services committee, French Hill, the gentleman from Arkansas, who has been a champion in this area as well. He currently has a bill that's the Social Security Disability Insurance Return to Work Act. It's a bill that addresses a number of issues that need to be addressed long term. Things like fixing the 1999 Ticket to Work program, which has low participation in graduation rates.
▶ 2:43:10It seeks to fix our trial work period problems, our reducing the fear of disabled individuals when they are looking at returning to work and the loom of the possibility of losing benefits. It finds ways to incorporate other actors, private organizations, state agencies, and employers who need to support our individuals with disabilities as they return to work and stay in work.
▶ 2:43:32So, shout out to French Hill and to the Social Security Disability Insurance Return to Work Act, which is something I think uh and I'm hopeful that we will uh continue to pursue and look at and analyze and hopefully uh move down the path, the legislative path. Now, Mr. Sanderson, let me turn to you with a question. It's clear from your testimony that many employers uh want to hire individuals with disabilities.
▶ 2:43:58Uh in your written statement you say quote we addressed critical staffing challenges while our employees gained purpose fulfillment and economic independence uh the work that nautical manufacturing and fulfillment is undertaking with hiring individuals with disabilities who have experienced high barriers to work is amazing. So thank you for that. uh you and your company, I think, set individuals up to find their purpose in life, to follow it, and to fulfill it, to find the place of value within their community, and to make them more economically independent.
▶ 2:44:28That's what we want for everybody. So, uh let's go back to uh your testimony. You said many employers want to hire individuals with disabilities, yet it's clear many beneficiaries don't feel that that's the case. How do you account for this disconnect?
▶ 2:44:43Yeah, I do. I think a lot of the misunderstanding um and confusion around what goes, what stays um it's a great thing when somebody starts earning more money. Uh and that that feels good. If there's something that was helping support us expense that goes away at the same time, the numerator went up, but the denominator went up too and the what that person is experiencing dayto-day may not have changed. They may may still have a deficit in their net income even though they're now making more.
▶ 2:45:11Uh and so one of the one of the challenges that most people start in a job in a company at an entry level and they work their way up manager director that entry level job that salary and the perception is and and sometimes the reality as well is that people then lose some of the support either in cash or expense assistance. And so that that jump is very very difficult. And it it's broad numbers. It's different for industry industry to industry.
▶ 2:45:36But if somebody needs to come into an industry making $80 to $100,000 a year to get past that deficit, that's a very difficult ask for anybody, including employers. So, I think that's part of the the challenge is that there are some some programs don't work like that and there's perception that it does and some actually do work that way and then it's just confusion all the way around.
▶ 2:45:57So, um, I also think there are some employers who are just so in the weeds that scaling back and recognizing that a long-term strategy for employment and retention will actually be a little bit hard on the front end, but translate into bigger margins on the back end. That's a difficult ask. It's a difficult pitch to make sometimes if you've got a short-term vision.
▶ 2:46:15Miss Wallace, uh, I want to come to you now. In May of 2025, the labor force participation of people ages 16 to 64 with a disability was 41% approximately compared to 77.8% of people without a disability. And the employment rate was 8.2% for people with a disability, more than double that with people without a disability. Can you give examples of how your organization collaborates with business and advocacy groups to ensure employment outcomes for people with disabilities are successful?
▶ 2:46:46Certainly. Um the example that comes to my mind right away is working with um businesses and employers who work under um the ability one contracts source America. So we work very closely with them um and providing we have a workforce of people who are looking to go to work and they are looking to fill jobs and so we have worked with them very closely on trying to um streamline processes for funneling folks that we're working with into those jobs
▶ 2:47:16on those contract sites. So that's one example.
▶ 2:47:19Thank you, Miss Wallace. Mr. Chairman, before I yield back, I request unanimous consent to insert into the record a statement from Chairman French Hill dated today regarding this topic.
▶ 2:47:28Without objection, so ordered. Thank you. Now, I'd like to uh recognize the representative from Virginia, Mr. Byer, for five minutes for questions.
▶ 2:47:37Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. And and thank you all for coming here today. I'm really glad we're having a chance to talk about supporting opportunity for individuals with disabilities. 45 years ago, I was on the founding board of the Independent Center in Arlington, Virginia. Um, where I learned yet again that the most important thing for anyone with a disability is the desire to be independent, to be as independent as possible.
▶ 2:48:01My next youngest sister was born with an intellectual disability and she worked in the family business with me side by side for 27 years. She was the heart and soul, the charm of of the business. But um very few intellectual or people with disabilities have the benefit of a family that has a family business that can take them in. And earlier this year, I joined with my friend Mr.
▶ 2:48:26Smucker to introduce the Enable Act to better support individuals with disabilities. It strengthens the ABLE accounts. It allows them to save and invest without jeopardizing their eligibility for federal programs like SSI. It allows higher contribution limits, a savers credit, and among other provisions to better support so they can live independently. And I hope to work with Chairman Estes and Ranking Member Larson to get this bill actually moving and pass.
▶ 2:48:55I also like to express concerns, as my friend Mr. Gomez did, about the current attacks that we're seeing. He had the poster up with Treasury Secretary Bessant talking about a back door to privatizing. You've heard some of the other pretty scary language about it being a Ponzi scheme. Miss Grooninger, the Republican Study Committee, which most of my Republican colleagues serve on, released a 2025 budget plan full of cuts to Social Security that will directly hurt their own constituents and Americans across the country.
▶ 2:49:24And this specifically is gutting disability protections. Since this hearing is about supporting individuals with disabilities, how from your perspective, how might this negatively impact those with
▶ 2:49:36Well, I think that you made a really important point when you talked about the fact that there are a lot of people who don't have the kind of family support that your sister did. There are people who are depending on Congress to help them get the supports that they need. Um, find out how they can work if they so choose. uh use the resources that they have available. And when that's not happening, you see people who are falling into deeper poverty.
▶ 2:50:04For people, for example, who are trying to work and don't have ABLE accounts, the asset limit as it stands is very low. So I think in addition to ABLE accounts, for example, we can do other things such as raising the asset limit so that people don't even have to go through that. Really, it's a difficult process if you don't have people supporting you. There are ways that we can actually provide services to people with disabilities and seniors.
▶ 2:50:29There's legislation that we can pass that would actually support people with disabilities and seniors. And I think that that's something that we should be
▶ 2:50:38Thank you very much. And Mr. Gringer, I'm really afraid that the science deniialism we're seeing, the antivaccination campaigns are going to hit people with disabilities particularly hard. You know, we talk about herd immunity, but when there's no herd immunity and you can't get vaccinated because of your medical condition, um that's a great great danger. Many Americans with disabilities are at risk of more severe health consequences or even death if they're infected with the vaccinereventable disease.
▶ 2:51:05And in addition, falling due ill due to preventable disease means missing work. And the great concern with RFK Jr., the whole MA agenda is that it can be anything but healthy for people with disabilities. I I love your
▶ 2:51:20So, vaccines have been proven to be effective in helping people to maintain their health. And I think that part of what people with disabilities and seniors need is to be able to access vaccinations and be able to get the health care that they need. And so I think what we are worried about and things that we've seen for example with the CO 19 pandemic, older adults were and people with disabilities were most at risk.
▶ 2:51:48And so if we're not giving people access to vaccines and access to appropriate health care, we're going to see a lot of people who are sick and dying and hospitalized and it's preventable. you you're making the the astonishing case that the lack of vaccinations is going to put more people on disabilities that you're we're we're actually making the problem worse. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate this and Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:52:16Well, thank you for those remarks and uh now I'd like to rec recognize a representative from California, Mr. Petta for five minutes for questioning.
▶ 2:52:24Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to all the witnesses who have been here this afternoon. obviously appreciate you highlighting um these issues, especially these disability rights issues that are very very important. One of the issues though that I'd like to bring up concerns the rights of disabled adult children, uh called DAC's or DAX, I guess for short.
▶ 2:52:44Um, as you know, and I can tell by your heads that are shaking, yes, these are people who are now adults but were disabled before the age of 22 and therefore began receiving SSI and Medicare benefits based on a parents work record. Now, nationwide, there are 1.1 million DAC beneficiaries.
▶ 2:53:04However, under the current law, and this is gets to my issue, if DAXs get married to anyone other than another other than another DAC, they lose their Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits. Now, as you know, for disabled people, these benefits are truly a life and death matter, and losing them simply isn't an option. Unfortunately, this issue strikes close to home in my district. I had a resident bring this to my attention.
▶ 2:53:34Her name is Lori Long and she faced this very same challenge. See, as a DAC, she receives health and social security benefits, but she got engaged and then she found out that marrying the love of her life would mean losing these benefits for the rest of her life. So, understandably, Lori approached my office. She brought the issue to my attention and we authored the Marriage Equality for Disabled Adults Act.
▶ 2:53:58This is a bill that would ensure DAC benefits that they're not revoked when DAXs get married so that people like Lori never have to choose between their livelihoods and love. So, Mr. Chairman, first I'd like to ask unanimous consent to submit the submit the text of my legislation for the record.
▶ 2:54:18Without objection, so ordered.
▶ 2:54:19Thank you. And then just a question to Miss Growner. The DAC's that I've spoken with want nothing more to live a normal life and that means marrying the people they love in my opinion. Do you know of any other law for a DAC to be married without losing their benefits?
▶ 2:54:36I don't. I think that this bill makes a lot of sense. I think that people should be able to get married if they so choose and that we shouldn't be disincentivizing it by forcing them to choose between marriage and their
▶ 2:54:48Exactly. Now, my conversations with with disabled constituents are pretty much similar to people who are proud to live full lives, especially when they can participate in the workforce and their communities. Um, but can you speak to the people who were unable to fully participate in the workforce because of a childhood disability?
▶ 2:55:08So, I think we've touched on this a little bit in that people are worried about working too much and when you reach a certain limit, you lose your benefits. And so I think that the fear and the kind of uncertainty around that means that people are not necessarily able to take advantage of all the potential that they have and really try new things, try to work in ways that they haven't before because if they do it and they end up going over this limit, they could lose so
▶ 2:55:38many benefits and it could really affect their quality of life in really meaningful ways.
▶ 2:55:43Great. Thank you, Miss Growner. Thanks to all the witnesses for being here today and highlighting not just um my issue but many of the issues that we're facing and that DAC's and others on disability uh face as well. So I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. I yield
▶ 2:55:57Well, thank you and and I'd like to thank all of the witnesses for appearing before us today. Um this concludes our hearing. Uh please be advised that members have two weeks to submit written questions uh to be answered later in writing. These questions and your answers will be made part of the formal hearing record. With that, subcommittee stands adjourned.