▶ 0:25:21Small business to order, and without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time. I now recognize myself for my opening statement. Uh, welcome to today's hearing titled streaming success small business in the age of digital influence. Today, we will examine one of the fastest growing sectors of our economy content creation. While some may think of content creators only as online personalities, they really are a new generation of entrepreneurs taking risks and navigating the rapidly growing industry.
▶ 0:25:52Content creators are more than just entertainers. They are small business owners, entrepreneurs and job creators. They have transformed digital influence into sustainable careers by launching product lines, providing education, and creating loyal communities around everyone everything from sports to law. In fact, more than 1.5 million americans now earn a full time living as creators. Americans are building small businesses through platforms like youtube.
▶ 0:26:18Youtube itself contributes $55 billion and a half a million jobs to the american economy. Globally, this sector is already valued at over $250 billion and is projected to drive $2 trillion in social commerce by 2026. The impact of this economy goes far beyond the creators themselves. A single successful creator fuels jobs for editors, designers, video producers, product manufacturers, and countless other small businesses.
▶ 0:26:42This superb or this spider web effect shows what content creators aren't just building brands, but powering an entire ecosystem of small business growth. But as with any small business, they face real challenges unique tax situations, unpredictable revenue streams, and costly intellectual property protections create barriers for those. These small business owners, like this committee, has seen too often. Red tape that makes it difficult for these entrepreneurs.
▶ 0:27:11So the creator economy is a prime example of the american entrepreneurial spirit. Creators are innovative, they're fiercely competitive and contribute greatly to america's economy by reducing barriers and ensuring the government does not stand in the way, we can ensure that these small businesses have the freedom to thrive and grow in a digital economy. So I look forward to today's discussion. I now recognize my distinguished ranking member and my friend for her opening remarks. Miss velasquez from new york. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:27:41Chairman, and good afternoon, everyone, uh, for calling this important hearing. Like with any emerging technology, nobody could fully foresee the economic and social implications of social media, as it has been since then. The landscape of social media has evolved. America is now home to a global content creation industry worth billions of dollars.
▶ 0:28:06Content creators come from assorted backgrounds and their paths to content creation are just as diverse. Many are owners of traditional small businesses looking to advertise their goods and services to new audiences. Other posts about topics that they are passionate in go viral and connect with the devout following, and a golden opportunity for ad revenue almost overnight.
▶ 0:28:33With the low to nonexistent capital requirements and costs of starting and operating a social media page, coupled with the prospects of instant fame, it is no wonder so many american youths today dream of becoming content creators. America's content creators often encounter long standing issues that this committee has addressed time and time again.
▶ 0:29:04As the world becomes more interconnected, especially in the online sphere, tariffs are an outside barrier to content creators looking to grow their small businesses through product and merchandise sales. This spring, I led 67 colleagues in sending a letter to the trump administration's U.S.
▶ 0:29:25Trade representative, treasury department, commerce department and sba, calling on them to consider and address the needs of small businesses in their tariff decisions. I still have not received a response from the trade representative or commerce secretary. Mr. chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter the letter into the record.
▶ 0:29:49And with the new technologies and new industry come new challenges. The rise of social media has also seen the rise of online hate and harassment. The side effects of rhythmic content creation, curation, the proliferation of content harmful to children and the drowning of our discourse with I slot, I would also be remiss if I did not address the
▶ 0:30:20Elephant in the room, the ban on one of america's most important social media platforms, tiktok. Tiktok has given small businesses a lifeline in a sea of inflation, labor shortages and ever changing consumer preferences. With this tool in their tool boxes, small business owners can expand their reach and sales far beyond their hometowns, making them profitable and sustainable.
▶ 0:30:47And now we are in tiktok limbo after president trump's attempt to ban tiktok through executive action and congress subsequent legislative action, he has suddenly u-turned and is repeatedly delaying the ban's enforcement for short periods of time. In fact, the last delay was supposed to expire today and was only extended yesterday by three months.
▶ 0:31:16President trump claims he will reach a deal to keep tiktok available in america within 30 to 45 days, but it hasn't been finalized. Such short time frames create uncertainty for the content creators that rely on this platform, rendering them unable to plan beyond a two month horizon and adding and adding immeasurable pressure to their business models.
▶ 0:31:44America's content creators deserve a federal government that is willing and able to support their endeavors. That requires responsive agency and strong, stable public policy conducive to a prosperous business environment. It also means enacting thoughtful policies to rein in harmful content when necessary. With that, I thank all the witnesses for for your presence today and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> gentlelady yields back.
▶ 0:32:13I now will introduce our witnesses. Uh, the first witness here with us today is miss kayla moran. Miss moran is an attorney and the founder of kayla moran law, based in miami, florida. Miss moran began her career as a personal injury attorney before finding her own firm, founding her own firm to represent creators and entrepreneurs in the growing creator economy.
▶ 0:32:36She's also the host of the let's get candid podcast, where she inspires young women to pursue their passions and build careers, and they're on their own terms. Miss moran earned her j.d. From the university of tennessee college of law, and holds a bachelor's degree from the university of central florida. We're looking to your testimony this morning. Today, our next witness here with us today is miss christina brennan.
▶ 0:33:01Miss brennan is the president of celeb experts located in new york city. She began her career with in sales with the new york yankees. Did you sell them out? Okay.
▶ 0:33:14And quickly rose through the talent industry, becoming the youngest vice president of celeb experts history while growing a roster of over 30 exclusive influencers with a reach of more than 46 million followers, miss brennan now oversees partnerships, brand strategy and talent management for top tier clients across the sports, food and digital industries.
▶ 0:33:34Having aggregated tens of millions of dollars for both startups and fortune 500 companies, miss brennan earned her bachelor of science in sports management from syracuse university. Thank you for joining us today. The next witness we welcome today is a constituent of mine, uh, Mr. nicholas luciano from weatherford, texas. Mr. luciano is the founder and chief executive officer of troy carter house, located in weatherford. As I spoke, Mr. luciano worked as a mechanical engineer for the U.S.
▶ 0:34:04Department of defense before making a pivot in 2020 to launch his own brand and media company. Since then, he has grown a digital audience of over 8 million, generated seven figure revenue through brand deals and merchandise, and helped companies expand their online presence. Nicholas earned his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering technology from the university of north texas. Mean green, and thank you for traveling here from the great state of texas. Testify for us today, nicholas. I now recognize the ranking member from new york, Mr.
▶ 0:34:34Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing before us today. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Jesse appell is a comedian and entrepreneur, owning and operating jesse's tea house and e-commerce business, specializing in high quality tea and tea accessories. Born and raised in boston area, Mr.
▶ 0:34:56Apel became a fulbright scholar studying stand up comedy in china, an experience he leveraged to begin posting about chinese tea on tiktok during the covid pandemic. Later, he went viral, used the attention to launch a tea business, and still post today about his products, intercultural exchange and his greatest stand up hits.
▶ 0:35:20His work has also been featured on texas pbs, npr, and chinese media. Mr. apel holds a bachelor's degree in east asian studies and international and global studies from brandeis university. Welcome, Mr. apel. >> if you're a comedian. Uh, we appreciate, uh, all of you being here again. Uh, for us.
▶ 0:35:51And, uh, before recognizing, uh, I want to, uh, like to remind the oral testimony is is restricted to five minutes in length. And, uh, if you see the light, turn on in front of you. If it's red, uh, if it's turns on, it means your five minutes has concluded. And you should wrap up your testimony. And if you keep going, you're going to hear this. It'll just get louder and louder. And finally, you're going to have to stop, okay? I know you'll do it just right. So anyways, it'll be easy. I now recognize Mr.
▶ 0:36:18Moran for her five minute opening remarks. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and ranking member of the committee, for the opportunity to speak with you today. And thank you to my fellow experts for joining me and giving creators and the creator economy a platform. My name is caitlin moran, and I'm the founder and managing attorney of caitlin moran law, a dedicated creator economy firm with an innovative, creator first approach to help influencers and entrepreneurs build, scale and protect their businesses.
▶ 0:36:45I'm a first generation american born to a latin family in miami. My father is a marine corps veteran turned banker and my mother is an operations executive. I entered this industry as a creator myself in 2018, and during the rise of tiktok, I realized creators need lawyers who understand their perspective. I have been a small business owner in the creator economy for over four years, first as a blogger and podcast host, then as an influencer manager, and now as an attorney. The story of american entrepreneurship is changing. Today, the storefronts of main street have moved online.
▶ 0:37:14The creator economy, with its low barriers to entry and flexibility, opened new career paths for americans starting in its early years with bloggers and evolving into marketing agencies hiring social media influencers. The creator economy has disrupted traditional and costly multimillion dollar marketing productions. It has become a very lucrative career path, and now creators need congressional back support to support and protect them as they navigate industry as it continues to grow. Running a business from a phone allows millions of americans to turn their skills, voices and ideas into businesses.
▶ 0:37:44Creators can turn side hustles into careers. Stay at home while still putting food on the table, and students can even pay their way through college. While the average american may discredit influencing as a hobby, goldman sachs, in their 2023 creator economy report, projected the industry could grow to almost half a trillion by 2027. In the us, there are four strategic teams of marketing agencies sourcing the right influencer for their clients marketing goals, and allocating million dollar budgets. And these businesses at the heart of economic growth deserve the same protections as traditional ones.
▶ 0:38:12The small business administration's mission of providing aid and protecting the interests of small business owners should be extended to this industry. Creative entrepreneurs need access to dedicated creator economy experts, including lawyers, accountants and wealth management services to give them the same level of support and protection the sba provides to restaurants and mechanic shops so they feel equally valued and respected. The rise of the creator economy has elevated the importance of the right of publicity, the ability to commercialize your name, image and likeness, and it requires federal attention.
▶ 0:38:40Currently, this right is governed by a patchwork of inconsistent state laws originally designed to protect privacy, which gives little guidance to creators across state lines. Federal statutory guidance would be helpful to us as service professionals seeking to standardize a very cyclical industry. Managers are not always equipped with the resources to support their clients. Perhaps creator economy lawyers having a federal license similar to the patent bar could be a solution. If creators know to hire an attorney, they turn to their neighborhood lawyer.
▶ 0:39:06But the issue is impacting the growing cohort of american entrepreneurs needs dedicated and creative and tailored support, which we could provide if we were not in fear of triggering unauthorized practice of law issues. Another growing concern is the concentration of power among a few large marketing agencies.
▶ 0:39:21This trend toward monopolization is creating a severe imbalance in bargaining power between contracting parties, due to the overall lack of education in the legal implications of intellectual property ownership and other deal terms, marketing agencies are restricting a creator's ability to negotiate their rights while continuing to offload the responsibilities of production and distribution, leaving all parties frustrated. Similarly, the one sided payment terms marketing agencies rely on hinder creators ability to earn a steady income.
▶ 0:39:46Often, payment terms are net 60 or net 90, meaning a creator won't be paid for their work for up to three months and payments are still late or they never come. Unfortunately, creators are unaware that they can sue in small claims court and be ineffective. Governing law clauses in these agreements, if they are present at all, are yet another disadvantage they face.
▶ 0:40:04While congress is currently acknowledging the mental health of minors on social media, and there are a few scattered state laws that require protective financial trust for children performers, another issue is the lack of national oversight, enabling forum shopping and exploitation of child creators where no regulations exist. And lastly, there are a growing platform volatility issues creators face with the rise of ai and account hacking. Right now, a creators only mechanism to recover their account and loss of income is a digital millennium copyright act takedown.
▶ 0:40:30However, because a dmca takedown action often requires registration of an account holder's trademarks and or copyrights, which is cost prohibitive at volume, and creators are often unaware of these traditional ip protections are available to them. It's not the most feasible option. This impacts small businesses using social media as well, where there is a growing practice of bigger companies using the dmca takedown tools built into platforms to restrict and shut down their competition. What are traditionally considered unfair trade practices?
▶ 0:40:56I hope I have demonstrated today how creators are small business owners, and how they need the same infrastructure of support and protection that other american entrepreneurs receive. This is a pivotal, pivotal moment, and I'm honored to be here. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. >> great job. And I now recognize miss brennan for her five minute opening remarks. >> good afternoon, chairman williams, ranking member velazquez and distinguished members of the committee.
▶ 0:41:20My name is christina brennan, and I'm honored to appear before you today to discuss the impact of social media on small businesses, entrepreneurs and local economies. When people think of social media, they often picture a feed of birthday photos, vacation selfies, or the occasional no excuses jim post. But beneath the surface is an entire web and ecosystem of commerce. Social media is a marketplace, a workplace, and in many cases, a lifeline for small and large businesses alike.
▶ 0:41:50In the united states, the social media industry has grown into a multi billion dollar industry, touching everything from advertising and publishing to retail and entertainment. But its impact is perhaps most deeply felt by small businesses. For a restaurant owner, a craftsman or a young college athlete building her brand, social media isn't just marketing, it's survival and it's scale. For influencers, whether they have a few hundred followers or millions.
▶ 0:42:18Revenue streams are diverse brand partnerships, affiliate revenue, platform payments, merchandise, and even their own product lines. Every influencer fuels an ecosystem of offshoot businesses attorneys, assistants, editors, publishing houses, and managers like myself. Some even play strategic roles in fundraising and acquisitions for emerging startups. Consider ozuna, a buffalo based brand whose digital strategy helped it scale to 25 employees.
▶ 0:42:45A buffalo bills partnership and four agencies. Additionally, they have contracted over 100 influencers, some of which sit on their cap table, or chef darian bryan, an immigrant entrepreneur with multiple restaurants and a recent snickers campaign at highmark stadium creating food so delicious it would make you want to break a table. These are local economic engines powered by digital reach, and the beauty of social media is that it's accessibility.
▶ 0:43:14I help scale celeb experts and renegade talent management while living outside fort bragg, north carolina. As a proud military spouse, unlike many in my community who face staggering unemployment rates, I was fortunate to continue my career remotely. Social media allows for people to earn a living, contribute to their families, and bring economic opportunity to their hometowns in various locations, whether that's buffalo, fayetteville or endicott, new york.
▶ 0:43:39Most recently, our organization has begun work in the nil space, specifically young, dynamic women who are learning to build long lasting businesses around passions that they love. This next generation represents not just a cultural shift, but a chance to democratize entrepreneurship itself. But as powerful as this industry is, it faces real challenges. Today, I'd like to highlight three. First, cash flow.
▶ 0:44:04Too often, influencer partnerships are paid months after services are delivered. For many creators and small businesses, waiting that long is not just difficult, it's unsustainable. I do want to add we were one of the first ever influencer agencies, and that's not how it was when this originally started. Second, the rise of ai. We're entering a world where it's increasingly difficult to know what's real and what's fake.
▶ 0:44:27Bought influencers, content theft, dubbing, and misrepresentations don't just hurt credibility, but it can have dangerous consequences. Third, the resource gap. Many new entrepreneurs lack the knowledge to navigate contracts and offers. Education and transparency in this space are critical. This isn't just about the creators I manage, it's about the creators I don't. Social media is no longer just about pictures and posts. It's about people, jobs, and communities.
▶ 0:44:53It deserves thoughtful consideration, protection, and support as we navigate its future together. Thank you. >> lady yields back I now recognize Mr. luciano for his five minute opening remarks. >> good afternoon, chairman, ranking member and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you all today. My name is nick luciano. I grew up in maryland, not far from here, but for the last ten years, I've called weatherford, texas, home.
▶ 0:45:23I came to texas, fell in love with the western lifestyle, riding, roping, and rodeo. And I've built my life there. Before I ever made a piece of content, I earned a degree in mechanical engineering technology from the university of north texas and worked for three years as a mechanical engineer for the department of defense. My job was to design protective systems and run high speed cameras to safeguard our soldiers. That experience taught me problem solving, systems thinking and responsibility at the highest level. I bring that same mindset to the digital space.
▶ 0:45:54Along the way, I've built an audience of over 8 million followers across platforms, and I've created the third most liked tiktok in the entire world. That moment showed me that not only the global impact of this new digital landscape, but also that I've played a role in crafting and shaping shape it. I first started posting content not to get famous, but to help people. I realized that something as simple as a video could reach someone at just the right time.
▶ 0:46:21In college, I get messages from classmates saying my post encouraged them to keep pushing forward. But years later, I received messages from people saying that my videos have literally saved their lives. One man wrote, he actually emailed me while he was sitting on the tailgate of his truck, ready to end it all, but after coming across my video, he didn't pull, didn't pull the trigger. I was crying in an airport when that happened. Other moments like that showed me that this work is bigger than clicks and likes. It's about impact.
▶ 0:46:47It's about using digital platforms to reach people, to build trust and to create positive changes. That's where my journey shifted from being just an influencer to what? To becoming what I call a creator. Preneur influencers chase trends and attention, but creator preneurs like me build businesses, solve problems, create jobs while still connecting with millions of people online. For me, that meant founding charter house, the first western lifestyle content house.
▶ 0:47:12What started as a group of creators under one roof, grown into a business that partners with major brands like ariat, spotify, red bull, etc. And we support artists like bailey zimmerman and will mosley. And now we're focused on artist development and marketing strategy. We don't just post videos, we roadmap careers. We help build. We help artists build merchandise lines, manage online stores, and craft content strategies that cut through the noise.
▶ 0:47:38We also run a nonprofit, the foundation, where every year we fly a family to texas to give them a once in a lifetime western experience. Trotter house has created jobs directly. My co-founders, full time team members, editors, accountants, accountants, merch members, and indirectly through partnerships with printers, fulfillment companies, record labels, rodeos, and a bunch of small businesses across the country. Our biggest win to date has been helping our new artist.
▶ 0:48:04We launched his debut single and with our strategy, his very first release hit over 5 million streams in just under a month. I reached number one on spotify viral 50 and both the usa, usa and canada climbed to number six on texas radio and charted globally. That's not just a viral moment. That's building a foundation for sustainable career, and it's proof that digital creators like me can generate real economic results.
▶ 0:48:29But here's the challenge when many people hear the word influencer, they picture kids making silly videos for clicks. And that's a stigma that I want to break behind the scenes. Many of us are educated, disciplined, and purpose driven. We're running teams, managing payrolls, filing taxes, and partnering with brands and other small businesses. We're contributing to the economy just like any other entrepreneur. That's why the term I prefer is creator preneur. Because yes, I create content, but I also employ people, serve clients and build businesses.
▶ 0:48:57My vision for the future is clear the creators who endure, who build trust and serve their audiences and innovate in business are the next generation of entrepreneurs. We're not just chasing clicks, we're building foundations. We understand how to attract millions of people online, nurture those relationships, and channel that trust into businesses, nonprofits, and movements that make a real difference. If I could leave you with one takeaway, it's this people like me aren't in it for the money and fame. We're in it to change lives, build businesses and strengthen communities.
▶ 0:49:26We're part of a new economy, one rooted in trust, creativity and purpose. So when you think about influencers, sec is not as just entertainers, but creator preneurs, innovators, small business owners, and job creators who are here to stay. Thank you for your time and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you. I now recognize Mr. apple for his five minute opening remarks. >> good afternoon, chairman williams, ranking member velasquez and members of the small business committee.
▶ 0:49:54And to everybody watching on youtube. Um, I want to thank you all for the honor and opportunity to represent my fellow creator, small businesses, and to farm the aura of this esteemed chamber. Uh, my name is jesse apple. I am the founder of jesse's tea house. I run an online tea house, which is really two businesses. It's a media company and an e-commerce business. Every day, my 1.5 million followers watch me make and drink tea. And some of these followers actually buy the tea that I drink.
▶ 0:50:20Uh, as of today, we have sent over 80,000 orders to customers all over the country. I sourced my teas from farmers in china and taiwan, many of whom I met as, uh, during my time as a fulbright research fellow in china. My work as a cultural ambassador has now moved online, and I spend several months a year in asia, uh, going to tea mountains, filming videos with our farmers so people can see the tea that they're drinking and know the people who grow it.
▶ 0:50:46Uh, I started this business with my own savings from my dad's kitchen during covid, and it's just been amazing to see how it's grown. I get tons of messages from customers who have shared a tea time with their spouse or kids or parents, but sometimes emails even go deeper. One customer was a veteran, uh, who told me that the ritual of tea making, along with the socialization of inviting people over, was the best treatment for ptsd that he had found so far.
▶ 0:51:08Uh, another told me that he had replaced hard drugs with tea, uh, swapping one habit for another and the mantra only tea in the house. Um, all of this good is possible because of two uniquely american pillars a free internet where I can share my story, and a free market that allows me to sell the best tea in the world. It is to the protection and improvement of those free systems that I hope to call the committee's attention today on challenges related to internet freedoms.
▶ 0:51:36The most immediate issue for my business is the potential banning of tiktok. Uh, a few hours before the statement was due, uh, news broke that there was a tiktok deal. And, uh, if there is a good deal, I think that's excellent news for creators. If tiktok is banned, I lose 600,000 followers and, uh, sales losses likely in the hundreds of thousands. But even if the tiktok deal is perfect, um, this problem, this process was not comfortable for creators.
▶ 0:52:01Uh, there was a real chance that creating what amounts to an american version of the great firewall, which would have solved this problem with reactive isolation rather than the american ideals of openness and transparency. And in the end, a deal is not a law, and deals can be undone. So I urge congress to codify any deal, because even if every national security issue with tiktok were resolved, the battle on copyright enforcement, on data privacy and algorithm manipulation these all continue.
▶ 0:52:32And as congress considers these issues, I hope that you'll consult us creators. Um, I definitely don't want foreign powers manipulating my algorithm, but I also don't want domestic ceos or even a for profit board manipulating my algorithm. Creators want clear, legally defined rules which all platforms will play by, not just foreign ones. As for challenges in the free market, the recent tariffs have had a devastating impact on my business. I estimate that we've lost approximately $250,000 in sales, uh, as a direct result of the most recent trade war.
▶ 0:53:01I run a subscription club where every three months I send new tees to all the subscribers. Uh, but our subscription box just sat in the port and during the trade war, and we couldn't send it. We had to skip it all together. We also couldn't get a single restock shipment in from the entire time between january and august. Uh, this is all in addition to the increased taxes. Further, the chaotic nature of the policy changes has also been a challenge. I woke up one day to find the de minimis clause had been closed completely. Without exception.
▶ 0:53:31Uh, the postal service had to shut down all packages coming from china while they waited for their instructions. Then it was reversed and then it was reinstated. And will it be reversed again? It's hard to tell. Uh, developing a new product takes 6 to 9 months, and it's hard for me to know what us trade policy will be in 6 to 9 months. And beyond my personal stake, I should really be necessary for small business owners to need day to day updates on my new trade policy issues in order to run a small business.
▶ 0:54:00In the end, I sell tea. I'm a tea guy. There are no national security implications and no jobs to be gained from tariff. And yet the real jobs that I have created for myself and my five american employees have been staked as leverage and are being treated as less important than hypothetical jobs that might come from a hypothetical success of the tariff. Uh, I urge the members to consider exempting small businesses from these tariffs. A small business, we simply do not have the resources or to withstand these added costs and uncertainties.
▶ 0:54:30Finally, I want to thank the members for their time and attention. I paid for my own ticket to come here and share my experiences in good faith. If any members believe I can be of help in any way going forward, please contact me. I'm here to try to solve these problems. A wise man once said, do it for the gram. Today I do not just for the gram, but for america and all creators. Thank you very much. >> gentleman yields back. Thank you all for that. And we'll now move to the member questions.
▶ 0:54:59Under the five minute rule I recognize myself for five minutes. Mr. luciano, you left a career at the department of defense to pursue content creation full time, as you said, in a leap that many would see as unconventional. But today we're seeing more people make that jump. So the question is, what aspects of the content creator industry inspired you to make that transition? What opportunities motivated your decision? >> yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
▶ 0:55:26Um, honestly, what motivated me was to to start a purpose driven career. I loved working for the department of defense. Um, but there was always a fire in me to help people. And I felt like. And me, myself as a christian, it gave me the reach to talk about my faith and talk about mental health in ways that were unconventional, especially with the start of tiktok. I realized very quickly, me being a systems guy, that the systems of this algorithm algorithm were built different, and I wanted to use it for good.
▶ 0:55:55So I downloaded tiktok at my desk in 2019, and, uh, the rest is history. And I've I've been been been able to work with dream brands and, uh, start my own businesses. And I feel like I'm walking in a path of purpose. So that's really the the main driver behind it. >> thank you, miss brennan. Uh, the rise of name, image and likeness.
▶ 0:56:18Uh, some we're all interested in, uh, has changed the landscape for athletes and creators, opening new doors for entrepreneurs and establishing a lasting market presence. So the question is, how have you worked with your clients to navigate this space when it comes to protecting and strengthening their personal brands? >> thank you so much for that question.
▶ 0:56:39You know, it's a really cool time to be involved with, you know, young athletes because they're able to finally monetize their brands and build businesses beyond just what they do. They can explore passions and build out big programs. I mean, we're talking about equity programs and things like that. Interests outside of their sports.
▶ 0:57:01I've worked with companies like ipsy, beauty box, and that's really exciting because you think athlete, okay, you think ball and stick things like that, but you don't necessarily think about the offshoot businesses created because of that. And that is just been a honor and a blessing.
▶ 0:57:17Um, we work with our firm, works with both nil athletes and pros, and it's just been incredible to see these young women grow, learn more about business, and have real passions and goals outside of their sport as well, further extending their longevity. May I add as well? >> thank you. Uh, this question would be to all of you in my remaining time. So we'll start down here and move. Uh, content creation has become a powerful driver in today's economy, expanding opportunities for entrepreneurship.
▶ 0:57:45So from each of your perspectives, how important are creators to the american economy and their communities? >> thank you for the question. I think as many of us have said, it creates jobs not only for ourselves, but I have my staff here with me, part of them. My family helps me out and I do pay them when they create content for me.
▶ 0:58:06Um, I think also, as jesse has said, you know, they create sales, they're creating product lines and merch and beauty companies and service businesses and product based businesses as well. So I think they are a driver of the economy because as we're here, it's a small business. And at the end of the day, this country is built on small businesses. >> good. That's right. Thanks.
▶ 0:58:32>> 77% of small businesses in the united states use social media for essential functions such as sales, marketing and customer service, according to business dasher. That's significant, and I would argue that that is a dated number. Social media is not just a vehicle for sales. It's branding, it's voice, and it's connecting with the consumer. Small businesses have the opportunity to geotag where they are and have this plethora of, you know, new views and new opportunities that come from that.
▶ 0:59:01Um, I work with ozuna, the buffalo based company, and they're expanding like wildfire due to their digital strategy. It's impressive and it's incredible. And they're intertwined with the creator economy. It's it's a really exciting time. And I'm looking forward to, you know, finding additional ways that these creators can expand. Thank you. >> good. We got 50s. So, Mr. luciano, if you'd come and then we'll finish up. >> yes, sir. I'll make it brief. I'll just, uh, reference, uh, a video of mine where I adopted a dog at a local shelter.
▶ 0:59:30And stephenville went viral, and we started an annual event called canines and coffee, where we brought all small businesses together to help raise money to fund a new shelter because they're underfunded in the local community. Good. >> thank you, chairman. For my part, I just want to add more of a spiritual, uh, addition here.
▶ 0:59:49The enjoyment that I get out of life, of being my own boss, going in my own direction, doing what I love to do, this is, I think, what really is, uh, making creators so eager to find a way to make a living so that they can live this kind of lifestyle. Thank you. >> great. Well, I will yield my time back. I now recognize the ranking member for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. opel, how do small businesses and content creators earn money and grow on social media? >> uh thank you congresswoman.
▶ 1:00:20Um, there is a couple ways you can make money. One of them is you can make money off of views. If you get enough views, they will pay you for the views. Uh, the different platforms will, uh, people can do branding deals and merchandizing deals. The other witnesses have talked about that. Um, another way is by creating your own brand and essentially going way beyond merch. So rather than just the t shirt or a hat with my, uh, with my name on it, to be able to sell teapots and equipment and specialized teas and stuff like that. Uh, so there are various ways that creators can make money.
▶ 1:00:50>> thank you. And, and you mentioned the tariff wars. Um, president trump's escalating trade wars have caused tariff rates to change often. What business uncertainty did that pose? >> uh. Thank you. It adds a lot of uncertainty.
▶ 1:01:11Uh, it's very difficult to price items when I don't know how much I'm paying for them during the, uh, kind of the worst parts of the tariff war, I had already had boats with tea that had left the port, and I didn't know what I'd be paying for them when they would arrive. Um, that was an extreme version of this. But even beyond it, if a tax is raised, I can kind of adjust, but it's difficult to know how much extra I should adjust based off of future uncertainty. Given that we're working on 60 or 90 days schedules until the next deal.
▶ 1:01:42>> so what knowledge do you need to navigate the tariff chaos? >> um, obviously we need to spend a lot of time, a lot more than before keeping our eyes on the news, um, keeping our eyes on tweets, uh, where a lot of times the news breaks earlier than other places. Um, and also, I need to spend a lot more time communicating with my suppliers in china. They're ready to go. I'm ready to go. They message me asking what's going on, and I feel like I owe them at least an explanation of my best understanding of what's going on with the us trade policy.
▶ 1:02:10Um, they're not going to get it anywhere else. So there's a lot of extra communication that is comes into effect that is completely unrelated to the tax price. >> the president says that china will move tiktok to us ownership, but he hasn't closed a deal. Instead, he paused the tiktok ban for three months. Do you feel whiplash from the constantly changing news? >> uh, yeah. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen with the platform as a creator and an artist.
▶ 1:02:40My reaction has been to put my head down and try to keep creating, but that could mean if it is banned, I've just put more time and energy into a platform that is now destroyed. >> secretary uh says president trump was willing to let tiktok go dark today. Does that scare you? >> uh, yes.
▶ 1:03:03>> last year, uh, committee staff issued a report warning that I made content is unfairly crowding out human creators. Mr. chairman, I would like to enter the report into the record. So how does a slob compete with your content? >> sure.
▶ 1:03:24So the most basic thing is when you're on an app which is primarily recommendation based, they have a mix of things that come up on that feed, and a lot of that stuff can be determined to be ai slop, or at the very least is perhaps not the best, like, you know, real creator content that's out there. Um, that gums up the airwaves. It makes a very bad user experience for people who are trying to watch quality media. Um, and for some industries, it's much worse than others. I'm here today as a tea guy, but I'll say as a stand up comedian, go and check.
▶ 1:03:55When you see a stand up video, check to see if it's the actual stand up comedian posting. I'd say nine out of ten times. It's all stolen and we work for a long time to get a couple jokes onto a tv show, to have that just stolen and repeated, or to have the video on the top while somebody plays subway surfer on the bottom. You know, this is very discouraging to people who really want to put time and energy into making really good content. >> miss brennan, uh, anything to add on? I risks for creators.
▶ 1:04:24>> thank you so much for that question. Yes, the content theft and dubbing over words is extremely dangerous. I represent a number of medical professionals, including a surgeon. At one point his content was taken and they dubbed over a completely different ad. Were using it in whitelisting and targeting, and people were buying this product. Now this was an overseas company selling it, so that adds additional complications. But that's dangerous.
▶ 1:04:50They know this doctor because he has millions of followers and he is a practicing surgeon. So, you know, that is a very, very big problem. I think I can be helpful as well. Um, when we're talking about content scraping from, you know, for children's sake, I think it could be a very, very helpful tool, but it has to have a human element to it and it always has to be checked. >> thank you, thank you. I yield back. >> lady yields back. I now recognize Mr. stauber from the great state of minnesota for five minutes.
▶ 1:05:20>> thank you, chair williams and ranking member velasquez for holding the hearing today. And all the witnesses for your testimony. In northern minnesota, small businesses are the backbone of our economy. And many of these entrepreneurs are blending online content with traditional operations to expand their customer base, build brand recognition, and reach markets well beyond minnesota's eighth congressional district. The digital economy isn't just about influencers in los angeles. It's the real estate agent in brainerd, minnesota, looking to reach new buyers.
▶ 1:05:49It's a photographer in duluth who is looking to share their portfolio, capturing the beauty of northern minnesota. These creators are building something real, and like every other small business, they face red tape that washington is too slow to recognize. Uh, Mr. luciano, you've turned your platform into a full fledged business. Can you talk about the biggest challenges to formalizing your operation, particularly in accessing capital? >> yeah.
▶ 1:06:13I mean, the biggest challenge, um, as far as accessing capital, is just education, the misrepresentation of what we do. Um, so a lot of the times you're having to, um, tell people that I'm not just a influencer in it for clicks and likes, that I'm actually like these small businesses, um, in the squares.
▶ 1:06:35Um, and just because you can't see it, um, on a storefront doesn't mean we're not in our houses doing live streams and trying to build revenue. Um, and luckily, I've, I've, um, I've partnered with crowdsurf to, um, explore the funding side of things. So I'm taking investments in my, in my business as well.
▶ 1:06:56So, um, it's been really interesting to explore, and I'm looking forward to actually, um, having people in my back pocket to make them proud when I make trotter house a flourishing company. >> miss brennan, what risks do creators face when handling contracts and business deals on their own, and what protections do they need to avoid exploitation? >> thank you so much for that question.
▶ 1:07:21When creators start, it's not necessarily given that they have a business degree from harvard. So there's an inherent lack of education in the creator economy, and they deserve to receive that education, whether that's through the platforms or something else. Education is fundamental to decision making processes. You know, you have to be informed to be able to make the decision if you want to go forward or not and understand the implications that come to that.
▶ 1:07:47As far as management, oftentimes creators, especially when they're first starting, have not quite hit the revenue, where it makes sense from a business perspective to pursue. So they're doing it on their own. And that can have long standing implications to their business. Thank you. >> thank you. I I'm glad you said you don't have to have a business degree from harvard because you're looking at two lake superior state university grads out of sault sainte marie, michigan. Uh, miss brand, not as not only a creator, but someone who advises creators.
▶ 1:08:17Are there specific legal or tax hurdles that disproportionately impact new digital entrepreneurs, especially those who are just starting to grow their digital business? >> thank you for the question. As miss brennan said, I think a lot of times they think I need to have a manager to help me make a business and make more money. But they don't think of the legal implications of the contracts that they're signing or if there's not a contract at all, especially when tax season comes around. On monday, the q3 estimated taxes were due, I paid mine.
▶ 1:08:47I don't know if a lot of these creators know that they need to be doing that. And then come april, there's a really large tax bill that they're frightened by. And, you know, having advisors and people who can assist them in understanding what a business is because, as we said, a lot of them, they they know they're small businesses, even when they start out, once you start making money, you're a business.
▶ 1:09:09And I think we know that inherently, but we don't necessarily think of, you know, the formalization of it, starting an llc to protect their intellectual property, you know, having a lend out company who is the contracting party, a lot of them let their managers sign for them, which isn't necessarily bad, but having understanding of what that means. Um, yeah, there's a lot of things to consider, honestly. >> uh, with my last 50s, I'd like to take a quick poll of all of our entire panel within the last year.
▶ 1:09:35Has your content creator business hired another small business to help your business in any way, miss moran. >> an accountant and employees. >> uh, miss brennan. >> we've been established for a long time. So we do have parties we work with. We continue to expand our creative, our creator roster, which expands our business. >> Mr. luciano. >> yes. And I'm proud to shout out my tax team, decipher financials. Um, perfect. Yeah, because they have helped.
▶ 1:10:03They understand me as a creator to get my taxes right. >> thank you, Mr. powell. >> yes. >> we've been working with rare flower media in los angeles for additional editing help and social media posting. >> perfect. Good shout out to those folks. Thank you all. Uh. >> gentleman yields back I now recognize miss skelton from the great state of michigan for five minutes. >> thank you so much, Mr.
▶ 1:10:30Chair, and thank you so much to, uh, our incredible, uh, young entrepreneurs for being here today. Um, we recognize the work that, uh, you do, uh, is a part of generating not only important content, um, but drawing others to, uh, incredible products that are already, um, in the market.
▶ 1:10:53Uh, we know increasingly, uh, businesses rely on, uh, content creators to help elevate, uh, their products in the absence of a traditional advertising market space.
▶ 1:11:09Um, you all can help, uh, get this content out, uh, to where it needs to be as the mom of, uh, two, uh, preteen and teen boys, uh, who are constantly telling me all about the latest, uh, trends that they see online, um, I can I can tell you, I know firsthand about the importance of your work.
▶ 1:11:30Um, miss apple, I want to thank you for joining us here today and giving us an idea of what it's like to be a content creator in an ever changing economic and social landscape as social media continues to evolve with technology. I'm curious about your thoughts on the use of generative ai, um, in content creation, we know jen ai can be used to augment a wide variety of online content. Um, have you used or considered using, uh, gen ai for your business?
▶ 1:11:59And are you concerned about the potential for ai to pose unfair competition for human creators? >> you seem to me to miss brennan. To me. Okay. I just wanted to double check. Um, I have actually considered using ai in my business. I think sometimes there's a lot of concern with the the open source, closed source situation in a legal capacity.
▶ 1:12:25Actually, one of my associates was telling me about a new ai legal tool. So I have some research to do when I get back to my hotel room. But I think, yeah, I mean, I'm not going to say I don't use chatgpt or claude. I do prefer claude sometimes. Um, I think it's just educating creators on not putting a full contract with personally identifying information into chatgpt no names, no addresses, company names, things like that.
▶ 1:12:51Um, for creators using ai, I think making sure they understand where they're getting their information from and always checking sources when they get an output, making sure that the information that chatgpt or whatever ai tool they're using is, you know, it's accurate and correct information. Um, there is history of it making up case law or stories, um, and facts.
▶ 1:13:13I think also for creators, I get clients asking me all the time when I create content for my clients as a social media manager, do can I use a pinterest image in a graphic that I make? You know, they want to understand the licensing. I think understanding most of us. When we sign up for a new account, we check. Yes, we read the terms of service. None of us actually read the terms and conditions of anything because they're really long. But I think making sure you understand what you are agreeing to.
▶ 1:13:40When capcut changed terms a couple of months ago, you know, I created a video explaining what these terms of service changes are and what they mean for you as creators. And I think a lot of people are really upset by them, but no one has stopped using capcut. So I think making sure you know what you're using. >> yeah. Do you think I want to stick on this question line just a second, because it is such a new and emerging technology.
▶ 1:14:03And I you know, I agree with the the gist of what you were saying, which is it can be such a helpful and important tool for content creators. But there's a lot of parameters and rules of the road people need to understand. Do you think content creators and young, young people in particular are getting the education they need around how best to use these tools, whether in school or, um, you know, is that potentially a lane for, you know, the sba?
▶ 1:14:32>> I think both I think there is room for education from fellow creators. I think knowledge creators are a really growing community of creators, professionals ourselves. We are content creators. That's how we market our services to other creators. I think having the sba provide guided, you know, resources. You know, having a database of experts to go to, not just lawyers and accountants, but also, you know, an ai expert, someone explaining what these terms mean.
▶ 1:15:01But I think there's also the issue is a lot of misinformation. There is, myself included, multiple creators. Every single time a new status update changes or something, we're sharing what this actually means in a video. But then someone is discrediting us because they don't want that to be true. Yeah. And I think again, flagging is this correct information is important. >> yeah. Thank you. My time is expiring here. But, um, really, really appreciate your comments. Thank you. >> lady yields back.
▶ 1:15:30And I now recognize Mr. alford from the great state of missouri for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chair. And thank you, ranking member velasquez, for this important hearing. Uh, today's hearing is about more than social media. It's about recognizing that digital creators are america's next generation of small business owners. Whether it's a farm family sharing their story on youtube.
▶ 1:15:55We have several of those in my district, missouri, a veteran teaching lessons on instagram, or young entrepreneur selling products online. Creators are turning influence into real businesses that drive jobs and growth. Some 1.5 million content creators in america. Social commerce projected to reach $2 trillion by 2026.
▶ 1:16:15But like many small businesses, as they are running into barriers from confusing tax rules to trouble accessing capital simply because their income looks different on paper, our job on this committee is to make sure that washington does not hold back innovation. Supporting creators is not about promoting trends. It is about empowering small business owners like yourselves, who are driving economic growth in the digital age. My mom is 84 years old.
▶ 1:16:49She's in assisted living down in the houston, texas area, and we spend a lot of time on the phone now talking about her memories as a child. Uh, she talks a lot about, uh, the family sitting around listening and watching the radio before there was television and then, uh, her dad going to the town square, to the radio store where they had just put a television in the window, and they would stand around and watch a test pattern.
▶ 1:17:16We have gone a remarkable way in the last 80 years in america. Uh, from the founding fathers. The money was in independent printing presses. Uh, then it transitioned to newspapers. Then the money followed radio when it was invented, and then television and then cable and now social media. And I look forward to telling my granddaughter, who's only nine months old, her name is naomi.
▶ 1:17:45Uh, about when social media came onto the scene and content creators and the difference that it made in our society and in our economy. So I applaud what you're doing. And I think our job here is to try to find ways that we can help you be even more successful than you are.
▶ 1:18:03It is an inspiration to me, and I think the chair and the ranking member and others on this committee, just the spirit of entrepreneurism that you guys have captured, that you have reached beyond the boundaries that are some have been standing in your way to find a way to do business online and and seeking out these guardrails for protecting your business, uh, to make more money and to make sure that we stay in these lanes, uh, especially with the advent of
▶ 1:18:33Ai. So, um. I just want to know, miss, miss brennan, how can we. There's a lot of generalities out there, but what can what do we need to be? Look, we probably should have looked ten years ago at this, but what can we do now to help you and the industry be even more successful for the economy of america and main street? >> thank you for that question. And I think it comes back to education.
▶ 1:19:02I think, you know, tax breaks are always helpful for new businesses that are starting and coming up, um, specifically creator led businesses. If we're identifying these individuals and they are as the next generation of entrepreneurs, they deserve the same protections and education on how to grow. I think that's a really dynamic way. And then looking at it from perhaps the nil standpoint where there's a lot of marketing deals and I'm going to speak to marketing deals, I'm not going to speak to the actual contracts with the universities right now.
▶ 1:19:30It's not a national registration for agents right now. It's segmented by the states, and it varies. And it becomes costly for small businesses. For the big guys, it's no problem. But you start adding up those bills and start swiping those credit cards and it adds up. These athletes deserve to be protected. However, you know, let's kind of avoid the barriers to entry that aren't necessary. Thank you. >> thank you very much. Um, Mr. luciano, uh, appreciate your work.
▶ 1:19:59I've seen a little bit online. Um, what what drives you to do this? You said you you wanted to give something back. You wanted to make a difference. Uh, expound on that just a little bit. >> um, for me, I refer to the younger you principle. Uh, when I was 16 years old, I really struggled with my mental health.
▶ 1:20:16And I go around to ffa events across the country, and I speak to 16 year olds on the daily, and to see them do what I want to do is amazing, but I also want to protect them and their mental health. And as these leaders are saying, the misinformation that can be harmful. So I just want to put a good message out into the world and protect these kids as, as they take in this media. >> thank you. There's a lot of hate out there right now, especially after last week. And, uh, I applaud what you're doing. Thank you. God bless you. And I yield back.
▶ 1:20:47>> gentleman yields back. I now recognize miss mciver from the great state of new jersey for five minutes. >> thank you so much, chairman. And thank you to the ranking member. Uh, thank you so much for holding this hearing. I want to thank our witnesses today for joining us. Um, online content creators are not just influencers. They are entrepreneurs, job creators, innovators and small business owners. They deal with money management, taxes, compliance, and marketing engagement like any other business. But they face unique challenges.
▶ 1:21:17As we've heard already from some of our testimony today. Unique challenges when their primary storefronts are intangible online platforms, content creation can often make or break a small business.
▶ 1:21:31Congress must identify where federal policy can help creators operate on a level playing field, protect their business revenues, and compete fairly in an in a consolidated and often crazy online marketplace. With that, we heard some testimony from, uh, Mr. apple about how the tariffs have, you know, definitely disrupted your regular normal process.
▶ 1:21:57And I'm sorry to hear that, especially when you talk about $250,000, that that's a lot of money. And even the unsettledness of where your business is going and how to plan for that. I would love to hear more from some of the other panel members. Based on your experience, how have the tariffs impacted content creators ability to maintain product quality, affordable pricing, and customer satisfaction? We can start at the end.
▶ 1:22:25>> for me, I'm in a service based business and my clients as well, um, digital content creation. But I think access to personal capital, you know, income isn't coming in. Money isn't going as far as it used to. So not having the ability to hire service professionals to guide them, um, I heard from a lot of my creator friends, they, you know, filed their own taxes this year instead of hiring an accountant last year. Hopefully things went well.
▶ 1:22:53We won't know until, you know, refunds come through or things like that. Um, yeah. I just don't think money is going as far as it used to. And so people are skipping steps where they to cut costs, and I understand that. But it's also worrisome. You know, people don't want to hire a lawyer to review their contracts, but they're these are really bad contracts. Sometimes they're very one sided. They're very favorable to the marketing agencies or to the brands directly if they're the contracting party.
▶ 1:23:21So I think, you know, skipping steps is is dangerous. >> thank you, miss brennan. >> thank you. With tariffs came uncertainty. And I think it's going to go back to education and how to mitigate risk as a business owner. Because again that's what these people are. They're business owners. How do you mitigate risk. How do you have multiple streams of income coming from everywhere. And again, I'll hit on it again. It's about the creators.
▶ 1:23:45I don't manage the creators that maybe don't have a manager in their corner with, you know, tons of different services as far as the tariffs in small businesses. I did hear from one small business that due to the, I guess you could say, the exit of two very, very big ad buyers, it actually led to less competition as far as ad buying and the ad auction, giving them a really interesting opportunity to grow. And if we can build off of that in a very unique way, right.
▶ 1:24:12Hiring more influencers and local creators and things like that, I think that's a home run. So yes, tariffs definitely cause uncertainty. And I can't say what the impact will be year to date. But again, it's going to go back to education and mitigating risk as a business owner. >> thank you. Thank you so much much Mr. luciano. >> yeah. For me I've built my brand and we go around the country. We set up booths from ffa events to the nfr, and just over the years we've had to hike up prices.
▶ 1:24:40So we see people come by the booth and go $40 for a cap. No way. When I used to be able to sell it for 29, four years ago. Right. So it's just been me seeing the prices hike up and then in turn, that affects my top line. And then I'm not able to, you know, reinvest as much as I can back into that revenue stream. >> so yeah, thank you so much for that. Anything you want to add to that? I know you already spent some time talking about it, but anything else you might want to add?
▶ 1:25:10I would love to hear. >> sure. I'd just like to add, I mean, I came to ti through being a fulbright scholar in china and drinking tea and meeting tea farmers there and speak chinese. For me, this is not a matter of, oh, if the market is cheaper to sell japanese to your indian tea, oh, we'll just switch it on paper. You might be able to do that, and maybe to the country. It'll look on paper like there's a similarity between the business. For me, that would be not only just a total upheaval of my life and I'd have to learn japanese.
▶ 1:25:37Um, but it's also, again, spiritually, the best part about being a creator is I get to chase what I really care about, and I get to do it with the people that I love, and I get to do it with the people that have been good to me, and I can be good to them. And, um, sometimes they're in china. >> thank you so much for sharing to each of you. With that, I yield back, Mr. chairman. >> gentlelady yields back. And I recognize Mr. nick lalota from the great state of new york for five minutes. >> thank you. Mr. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I appreciate your leadership on this issue.
▶ 1:26:06Miss moran, how are you doing? >> good. How are you? >> good. Uh, my memo here says that the internet content creation industry is a $250 billion industry as of 2023, but it's expected to grow to 500 billion by 2030. And you're an attorney who represents a lot of internet content creators. >> yes, most of my my clients are talent directly or talent management agencies like miss brennan here.
▶ 1:26:28Um, so there's hundreds of creators and hundreds of talent managers in this country, and there's a lot of money circulating. >> yeah. And about what kind of content do they often create? >> anything from fashion and beauty to educational content, mental health, sports, anything. It could be anything you want. >> cool. And on what platforms do they usually place this content? >> I think the majority of creators use your main three tiktok, instagram, youtube.
▶ 1:26:56But there's twitch streamers, gamers. There's um, I can't think of any right now. I'm blanking lemonade, which is owned by tiktok as well. Um, facebook is still a primary source for for some companies. Yeah, there's pinterest is another one. There's several. >> this hearing is enlightening for me because I didn't realize how big this industry is. And you four are able to tell us exactly how big it is and where it reaches and whatnot.
▶ 1:27:23Um, I take it that because you're an attorney, you probably don't work for free. >> no, I. >> do not. Good. Good for you. You should. >> charge, um, nevertheless. So the clients that pay you, they're profitable too. They're paying taxes, they're feeding their families, they're contributing to society. >> um, I would hope so. Um, I always advise them to do so. Yes. >> smart. >> I wasn't a trick question. >> I probably. >> um, miss brennan, I really want to spend my time talking to you about the new york yankees, the greatest sports franchise we've ever seen in the face of this earth.
▶ 1:27:53I'm going to try to stay a little focused here and just and not spend my time on that. Um, but knowing how economically viable the industry that you're involved in is, when a entrepreneurs content gets stolen or copied, how damaging could it be to that person's ability to operate as a small business? >> thank you so much for that question. It can be extraordinarily damaging.
▶ 1:28:16Um, I gave the example of a surgeon who had his content stolen, and it was used by a offshore brand to sell a supplement that wasn't even third party tested. He got dms from people who follow him saying they bought it because they saw he endorsed it. And that is scary. So that is a very, very, very big issue because that's not just an issue of, you know, credibility. That's an issue that maybe has safety implications. So those those situations should be, you know, thought of in high regard.
▶ 1:28:49Thank you. >> great. So when an individual's work product gets stolen as damaging to the individual, what about the rest of the industry. Does it have a chilling effect on the rest of the industry? Do people then want to put less resources into creating the content because they anticipate, perhaps reasonably, that their stuff is going to be stolen? >> that's a great question. And I don't necessarily have a full answer for you.
▶ 1:29:12What I can say is, from a consumer standpoint, if we're seeing content that's stolen with ai dubbing and there's no disclosures, that's a big issue. So from a consumer standpoint, when we go to purchase products, what is it doing to that consumer psyche? Is it real? Is it fake? I believe right now, as far as the disclosures go, they're optional for the parties using it. But as a consumer, I'd like to know if something's heavily edited using ai.
▶ 1:29:36I'd like to know if it's a cgi influencer who are taking brand deals that are valued at a lot of money when they're not real people or groups of people, and that needs to be clearly disclosed. >> great. >> Mr. apple, I'm going to go to you now. >> yes. >> what are you drinking over there? >> uh, I'm drinking, uh, ancient tree red tea with roses in it from yunnan, china. It's great. >> you're welcome. I know you did the. >> I can make you some, if you'd like. I was wondering. >> the youtube version of it. Um. >> thank you.
▶ 1:30:06>> tell me, piggybacking on what I just said before, has a lack of consistent right of publicity protection leave small creators especially vulnerable? >> yeah. So my business is called jesse's tea house, and one of the reasons I did that is because it's very it's very hard to fake. Jesse. Uh, I make the tea myself. I show the farmers we work with. All of these things really are anti-piracy ways of going about business. Um, you know, I learned definitely from my career as a comedian online. The content will be stolen. The question is not whether it will be stolen.
▶ 1:30:35The question is when they steal the content, does it help your business or hurt you? If people decide to steal jesse's tea house videos with jesse hosting, they're really kind of advertising for me. But this was a long workaround that it took really a decade of dealing with a very leaky, uh, rights protection system for creators. That led me to figure out this very specific way I could try to protect my rights without any additional regulation. >> great. >> thanks. >> thank you. >> Mr. luciano. Great that you're here.
▶ 1:31:04My time has expired. Thanks for being here, sir, I yield. >> gentleman yields back. I now recognize doctor conaway from the great state of new jersey for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you. Uh, masters and, uh, Mrs. for uh, not Mrs. missus, is it that way? Anyway, thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for presenting yourself, uh, here today and giving, uh, very important information, at least to yours truly, who's not involved, uh, very much with social media at all, believe it or not.
▶ 1:31:33But, um, it's not, um, it's not passed me by exactly. But I don't spend a lot of time there because I don't have that much time. But I'm glad you're doing very well. Uh, at, uh, the work that you're doing. And clearly it's work that you love doing. And it's always nice to hear from people who are who are enjoying their work. Um, one of the things that struck me as I listened to your comments as small business persons and understanding the environment in which we all operate today. Um, how has the has big, big tech, if you will?
▶ 1:32:03Uh, how does that impact you? And do you have some suggestions about how we defend, um, your space, um, and your purchase in this, uh, in this economy? >> who's going to take the chair? >> anybody can take this. That's a round robin question. Yeah. >> yeah, I'll go for it. Um, I'd like to specifically speak to, like, uh, meta.
▶ 1:32:25Um, and how these certain platforms off, uh, offer verification processes through our actual identity and through our government paperwork. But when specifically me, there's thousands of fake accounts of me. But I'm paying this platform with my government id to say that I am who I say I am. So when I report an account, why isn't it not taken down immediately?
▶ 1:32:53So that's one of the big things where it's like, you know, I people are dming me about crazy things that have happened from a fake profile of mine. So that's. >> more focus by the justice department, I presume, um, on this kind of, uh, um, trade violation, I suppose. Yeah. >> yeah, it's it's just very easy to steal someone's content. So. Yeah. >> so.
▶ 1:33:19>> yes, to piggyback off that, I think it also there's a lot of incentivization of creators disclosing with the ftc guidelines that they are monetizing their content because the platforms don't push it out. So not only is there fake accounts being made and harassment and bullying, but also creators don't want to put these disclosures on that.
▶ 1:33:40They are contractually obligated to do so and legally obligated to do so, because then the content won't get pushed out and then the views won't be as high, and then they might not hit the targets at the contract set to get bonus money. So big tech disincentivize incentivizing disclosures is a big issue. I think also these big companies tech not just tech but any big company. There's this trend of monopolization. So these contracts are very one sided.
▶ 1:34:08They're very unfavorable to the small businesses to the creators. And again, there's not a lot of education on what these contract terms mean. Also arbitration a lot of these contracts have arbitration clauses in it instead of a mediation clause or suing in small claims court. These contracts are not that big. Some of them are. Some of them can be very lucrative. But a lot of times the the being lucrative is at volume. But these deals are for the most part, 2 to 5 to 10 to $20,000. An arbitration is just not feasible at that point.
▶ 1:34:39>> that's another another issue, miss brennan, just quickly, if you can, because I do want to get to another question. >> yeah, I think um, so I like the saying if you can't play nice, you can't play at all. So these companies that are stealing this data and perhaps they didn't know. Right. Let's assume the positive and they didn't know have some sort of step in education where they have to complete it. Similarly to, you know, if you commit a crime, you have to go through some sort of program, right?
▶ 1:35:07And if you can't play nice, you can't play at all because this is a serious issue. >> thank you, Mr. powell. >> yes. And just really briefly on that, the I think the algorithm and the lack of control about what legally you can do with a recommendation algorithm is something that could be looked at. I have 1.5 million followers, but there's no law that says they have to show my video to anyone. I've worked on it for years to build the accounts, but will they show it? Maybe not. Um.
▶ 1:35:31Additionally, if you know any given tech company realizes that they make marginally more money, uh, showing coffee videos rather than tea videos, they could just only show coffee videos and never show tea videos. And I would never know. I have to work endlessly hoping they show it. >> and just I'm just just for the record, there's, you know, hate speech has been mentioned and we certainly, uh, it is certainly something that's top of mind.
▶ 1:35:54Uh, many, um, persons in minority communities, um, face discrimination online if they say something that's unpopular, um, or perceived as being unpopular. Uh, the, the big tech companies, those who are sort of controlling access to the world, uh, digitally can censor them, quite frankly. Uh, have any of you experienced hate speech or censorship in the things that you have been doing? And thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr.
▶ 1:36:23Downing from the great state of montana for five minutes. >> thank you. >> Mr. chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here. Um, you know, this is an exciting topic for me. Uh, you're coming out of technology. This has been something that, uh, we've been talking about since my formative years.
▶ 1:36:38And, uh, my last job before I was in congress, I was a regulator of the insurance and securities industries, the state of montana and artificial intelligence, machine learning, big data all became a big part of the conversation on how we, uh, make use of this, uh, as a tool and understand really where, you know, reasonable sideboards on so that you inspire and, uh, um, and, you know, invoke innovation in the united states of america, make sure that we are, you know, continuing to be innovators
▶ 1:37:08There, but understanding what the implications are. And some of these conversations have just been really, really intriguing. And, you know, a couple of top line comments, you know, artificial intelligence is really set to transform the whole scope of the american economy, you know, including revolutionizing how business owners invest in their ventures, employ workers, manufacture products. And, you know, as I mentioned before, even, you know, how it rates insurance or how are there so many opportunities there?
▶ 1:37:34And a lot of folks are, you know, uh, excited about the opportunity, but concerned about what it means, because a lot of folks just want to be able to look into that black box. And, you know, I always say, well, once that black box has a n equals infinity matrix, you know, network in there, how does any human understand it? So, uh, they're interesting problems before us. Um, miss moran, in your testimony, you discussed the growing, growing role that artificial intelligence will play in the digital creator economy.
▶ 1:38:02Notably, you highlight some ai associated challenges that online content creators face in forwarding their brands, including deepfakes and account hacking. So with with computing and machine learning capabilities set to become more and more powerful in the coming years, how do you think online small businesses and creators are positioned to deal with these ai associated challenges going forward? >> thank you.
▶ 1:38:27I think as we've all said, education and I think disclosure, disclosing the ai's being used and in what capacity is being used to the extent, um, having a percentage of how much I can be used or how much is inputted versus output. I mean, I don't know how feasible that really is, but I think education and disclosure are primary things with deepfakes. I know there is countries in europe primarily passing copyright laws.
▶ 1:38:52Denmark passed a law that you could copyright your your face basically, so they can't make deepfakes. I don't know if that's feasible here, but some sort of regulations. >> so I'm glad you brought up, you know, foreign countries. So from your experience, what foreign countries and actors are the most culpable for promulgating malicious activities like hacking and spam accounts and, uh, you know, target online creators?
▶ 1:39:17>> I think there's a big I don't know if you want to call out specific countries, but there are countries that are associated with bot followers. So a lot of times companies or people will maliciously purchase followers for an account that they want to blow up to, then try to steal the account. Or, you know, I'll I'll offer you $500,000 to buy your account from you. And you know, you have to honestly, you should sell it because now it's no longer yours. Right.
▶ 1:39:46And so that's a business model that also needs regulation. But a lot of times these followers are coming from who knows where. >> right. So despite these challenges, uh, the growing power of ai also has incredible potential to assist entrepreneurs as well, including those based online. So what do you think could be some positive developments that could come from ai that can help digital creators generate better content and better compete in the online economy?
▶ 1:40:14>> efficiency ai is a great tool for efficiency. You know, I have friends who have created tech apps with closed source ai tools where I can upload a video. It could watch my video and create a script for me instead of me sitting and scripting out the video itself. So things like that are really helpful. >> thank you. Uh, miss brennan, from your experience managing your clients online presence, what has your experience been with ai? How was it factored into your firm's business strategy and operations? >> I think that's a great and multifaceted answer.
▶ 1:40:43Um, as far as the pros, it can, you know, detect, you know, potentially harmful content as far as the user experience. So that's great. We want everyone safe online, including our children. And then as far as efficiency and accessibility, that's quite helpful. If you're a small business and you don't have the resources to, you know, produce more jobs at the time. As far as cons, the fake ai influencers, that's that's scary.
▶ 1:41:08And the content theft and dubbing over people's name, image and likeness and creating false ads with faulty supplements. And I can go on and on with that. That needs to be regulated. There's got to be clear disclosures, and when there is a concern, it has to be escalated and escalated quickly to remedy that. >> right. Unfortunately, I've run out of time, but I really appreciate you all participating. And, uh, I yield my time, Mr. chair. >> thank you. I now recognize miss goodlander from new hampshire for five minutes.
▶ 1:41:36>> uh, madam chair, thank you to our witnesses. I just want to thank you so much for being here today. I know you're not doing it for the gram, and I have a confession to make. Herb and I had to google what that meant. Um, but now we know. And we know you're not doing it for the gram. You're doing it for america. And so, uh, I'm farming your aura. Another phrase I didn't know about until today. So thank you for that. Uh, because you're talking about freedom. You're talking about fairness.
▶ 1:42:02You're talking about public safety in the most important arena of the present and the future. And that's that's that's the digital world. Much of what's been discussed today really cuts across small businesses across our country. You know, you've talked about the high cost of doing business, uh, both because of regulatory red tape. And I'm I'm making lists and taking names. You show me red tape. Let's work together to cut it. That's what. Why I'm on this committee.
▶ 1:42:32You've talked about the high costs of lawless trade wars. Um. And I want to thank you, Mr. apple. Am I pronouncing that right? Apple? Jesse? Yes. Um, for quantifying just part of the invoice that you're paying as a result of these trade wars. We've got, uh, a bill, the small business liberation act that would protect small businesses from these lawless trade wars. And, look, this is basic fairness. You shouldn't be paying this kind of tax.
▶ 1:43:01And it's especially ironic for someone who's got a tea shop, because we all know how this great experiment the united states of america began. Um, but I want to say, you know, the creator economy when we talk about the creator economy. Miss brennan, you mentioned 77% of small businesses use social media. I agree with you. That's that's I would think, a real undercount. Um, and I see it every day on this job. You know, I was in a great town in my district, littleton, new hampshire.
▶ 1:43:30I met a fellow millennial, um, who owns a small business called tail swag. And it's an amazing it's right on main street in littleton, new hampshire. It's a pet boutique, a treat bar. I'd never been to a small business quite like this. You know, she she has used social media so effectively. Um, and I'll give you all a pitch. Uh, octoberfest. It's happening. Littleton, new hampshire, october 4th, 11 a.m. To 3 p.m. She advertised this on on on her on the gram, among other social media platforms.
▶ 1:44:00And as a direct result of this one post, we saw a boom in business in littleton, new hampshire. It's a win win win. Everyone wins when these platforms can be used to the effect that we all want to see them being used for now, I came to congress having worked, um, in the department of justice in the antitrust division, so I spent a lot of time thinking about, um, the harms and abuses of power we see from from big tech monopolists.
▶ 1:44:27And, you know, we've we've you've touched on so many today, but I really want to invite you and I'm going to be sending you I hope it's okay. Questions for the record, because there's so much in your testimony that I think we could really benefit from in this committee. Um, but I wanted to just put the question out.
▶ 1:44:44Um, you know, part of the challenge with big tech monopolies is they're really these days getting to to make big decision about who who gets heard and who gets paid and how much. And I just I want to throw this out to the panel. And I'm sorry I've taken up so much time in my questions because I'm just so grateful that you're here, and I hope we can stay in close touch.
▶ 1:45:08Uh, when you think about you mentioned there are many methods of being paid, but when you think about how, uh, big tech gatekeepers, big tech monopolists are actually controlling the purse strings and controlling the microphones. What what would you point us to as your top priorities for, for barriers that you're facing that you, you really believe congress has got to tackle? >> I can start, um, I think payment terms.
▶ 1:45:33I think a lot of these payment terms are net 60 and net 90, meaning creators aren't being paid for 2 or 3 months after the work if they even get paid at all. I think having thresholds, maybe if it's under a certain amount, it needs to be net 30, I don't know. There's there's so many different ways that this could be framed, but having some sort of regulation on payment terms would be really, really helpful. And I think also having, you know, in our termination clauses that if the creator terminates, for whatever reason, life happens, things happen.
▶ 1:46:04Force majeure clauses and pro rata shares in our termination clauses are really helpful. I think also in indemnification clauses, limitations of liability caps on damages creators or small businesses. We can't go up against a big tech company and have unlimited damages. We don't have that money. >> and you don't have an army of lawyers to do it. >> no. >> well, my time is is is past. But I want to thank you all and really look forward to working with you.
▶ 1:46:32>> gentlelady yields back and now recognize miss king haynes from the northern mariana islands, the great northern mariana islands. Uh, five minutes. >> thank you, mister chair and ranking member. And, um, so I credit my election to my relationship with social media influencers. I come from the island of tinian, and the island of tinian has one of the smallest population in the northern mariana islands. And no one from my island ever wins a commonwealth wide election. I am the first.
▶ 1:47:02And so, um, and I credit that basically to the work that was put in by, um, palm treo. I have to give them a shout out because they totally helped out. Um, and I also had the privilege of hosting the first ever palm treo social media awards. And this is where I kind of learned, you know, the value and the importance and all the work that goes behind content creating.
▶ 1:47:25And as I sit here, um, and as I listen to what miss goodlander was talking about, right, you know, just the intricacies of these conversations. And I think about the social media influencers back home who are struggling to go, uh, you know, have from having an online presence into actually developing a sustainable business. And as I tie in Mr. luciano's statement about, you know, just the challenge in terms of classification, right?
▶ 1:47:54And what all this means, uh, with regards to regulations, irs taxes, um, and so that's the kind of conversation that I want to have with all of you today. And I want to hear more from you, miss moran, because you're an attorney. And obviously you have helped a lot of these people get through some of these legal hurdles. And so if you could just start off by kind of sharing, you know, what are those?
▶ 1:48:18What are, you know, what a couple of the top barriers that these entries to the market, um, are that, that, that congress can assist with in terms of regulations. >> thank you. I think to nick's point earlier about not knowing how to classify yourself on a cap table. I think a lot of times the mindset of an entrepreneur as a small business, once you start making money, you are now a business.
▶ 1:48:42So I think having them have guidance from the sba and other organizations, you know, access to lawyers who can help them draft an operating agreement or file for their llc, knowing what address to put on an llc, because some states don't let you put a po box, but you don't want your address publicly out there, because for mental health and safety concerns. So I think having guidance on when and how to formalize a business could be really helpful.
▶ 1:49:09>> okay, how about we just move down the line and get your thoughts on the matter? >> thank you. Yeah, I would agree with miss moran. Um, education is a huge component to this, you know, how do you classify yourself? It's for the people who don't have access to all the things a management firm may bring attorneys, accountants, things like that. So really, education on what they can do to build their business would be crucial. Thank you.
▶ 1:49:35>> yeah, I'll touch on what kayla said, but just classifying yourself like there was no resources for me to understand in order to go from once I'm making money to this threshold to now making this amount of money. Okay, I need to be classified as an s corp and pay myself a proper payroll, right? So I had to learn all that myself, and then I've had to seek out resources that understand what I'm actually trying to do.
▶ 1:49:58So that's why my whole accountant team, their entire team just works with creators alone, because I've actually had the other my other accountant team, they didn't know how to classify me and I had to go re amend all my taxes from the past couple of years. So those are some some challenges I face as a creator. >> uh, thank you congresswoman. I agree with everything that they've said as well. I would add a an extra loop, an extra element to this that I sell a physical item.
▶ 1:50:26And so I sell my tea in every state in the country. Um, you know, even in, like, you know, big cities, you'd be surprised how hard it is to find really good chinese tea. So the that means that I have to pay state tax, state sales tax in every state in the country. That means a separate registration in every state income tax board.
▶ 1:50:46Um, I hire a third party company to do this, which is just a total loss the to the business in terms of the processing fee that I need to pay them to be able to register 50 different times. Some are quarterly, some are every year, some are, you know, bi annually. Uh, there's different definitions of what makes a nexus, uh, of sales that requires me to register. Every state has different amounts that you have to pass before you have to register.
▶ 1:51:13It's a very confusing system, and I'm not sure federally what can be done about that. But as a small business who's trying to pay their state sales taxes, it's incredibly difficult. And if I didn't basically just pay somebody else to solve that problem for me, there's absolutely no way I could do it. >> all right. I'm about to run out of time. But before I do, I want to give a shout out to zora talk synthetic, who are amazing content creators from the cnmi. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield my time. >> gentlelady yields back.
▶ 1:51:42And now ask Mr. olszewski from the great state of maryland for five minutes. >> thank you very much, chairman williams. I want to thank our ranking member, velazquez, and to our witnesses for your time today. It is truly exciting to be with you to discuss the social media landscape that has led many americans to entrepreneurial adventures beyond their wildest dreams.
▶ 1:52:03Uh, back home in maryland's second local, uh, social media accounts like marianne mayer's home, sweet baltimore are helping to contribute to the success of businesses in our region. Marianne provides amazing real estate advice through her content, while also shouting out some great small businesses that stimulate maryland's economy. Douglas clayton, uh, has a charm city food adventures account that uplifts local restaurants and food festivals.
▶ 1:52:28Uh, and these are the constituents, like all of you, who are creating business opportunities for themselves while also boosting brick and mortar businesses and small businesses in our district is such a positive thing. Um, but we know that as these industries arise, the federal government has to make sure that we're working harder to support and protect our constituents from the harms that can and do exist online. So the father of a young daughter who just started fourth grade this year, uh, I'm especially acutely aware of the dangers that our children are exposed to online.
▶ 1:52:57In particular, in maryland, our state police have launched the internet crimes against children task force alongside 61 task forces across the nation. They partnered with state, local and federal law enforcement on a month long initiative to combat online child exploitation. The task force has initiated 595 investigations, resulting in 41 arrests and 17 child victims rescued from ongoing abuse.
▶ 1:53:23While it's horrific, um, that resources even need to be used to combat these crimes, there's no excuse not to battle this epidemic head on in a bipartisan way. So I look forward to advancing bipartisan legislation that works to protect everyone online, uh, both from crimes as well as the hate speech, which is so pervasive today. We know the web is a powerful tool that can connect americans in positive ways, and that is needed now more than ever.
▶ 1:53:47So with that, I'll ask a question of all the panelists, and I hope I can I can save time for one other issue, uh, for miss moran. Uh, but I just want to ask everyone what actions, uh, might you recommend congress take that can both help us better protect children from being exposed to violence, harassment, hate speech, and more, while also ensuring that you can do your jobs and grow your businesses effectively.
▶ 1:54:10I think there's a balance to be struck, but we want to be doing both, so I just want to open that up, uh, for the panel. >> um, I think on, uh, from my perspective, I really like the idea of saying, you know, this looking at the internet as a village, and if somebody breaks a law in the village once, do you let them create another account? Do you let them create another 100 accounts?
▶ 1:54:34Do you have some sort of thing that they have to go through where they recognize the problem that they had with the first account and with the first speech before they're able to go on and then continue to speak? Um, I think different, different issues should be dealt with differently. But I like the idea of having the internet be full of people that are, you know, being righteous actors. And if there are people that are are problematic actors that they're just not allowed right back onto the internet immediately with no problem after they've been caught.
▶ 1:55:04>> I would say for me, it starts with like the the parents at home with, um, really just filtering the amount of screen time that kids have. And um, because that can down the line, especially because I'm really big into mental health that can, you know, carry down through generations. So just starting with the parents really educating on what it means to, um, limit screen time and, um, yeah. So. >> yeah, I would agree with Mr.
▶ 1:55:36Apple. Repeat offenders cannot be on those platforms. If there's an issue, whether it's dealing with a child or whether it's dealing with an adult getting harassed. And there is, you know, a process where it goes through discovery beyond just I because I know some of the platforms just look at ai and there's no human interaction that needs to be dealt with, and it needs to be dealt with and addressed by another human being. It can't just be ban. Here we go. We're done. Maybe some intervention further than that would be helpful. Thank you.
▶ 1:56:03>> and miss moran, in addition to your answer on this, if you can also respond to I know that you've called the tiktok ban and president trump's repeated short term delays an emotional roller coaster in your 30s. If you could both answer that question and elaborate on what you mean by that roller coaster. >> sure. I think the coogan laws, you know, states like california, utah, illinois have passed coogan laws for child performers having trust accounts, parents have to put a percentage away. That is in a trust for children that when they turn 18, they can access.
▶ 1:56:32We've seen this a lot with actors like jennette mccurdy from icarly. You know, when her mom passed away, she got access to her income and realized that it was all gone. Her parents took it. And she's not the only one. Children. Performers. Family vlog channels are very popular on youtube and tiktok, and these creators are being exploited by their own parents for money, and they're not getting to see any of that. So I think federalizing coogan laws or incentivizing states to pass coogan type laws would be really, really helpful.
▶ 1:57:01And then with the tiktok ban, I think I mean, jesse and nick have said it too, but it hurts not knowing, you know. Can I post content today? Is it is anyone going to see it? Um, you know, not knowing that tiktok got pushed back, I created a lot of content during the ban in december and january. I was abroad, I was in europe, and I was waking. >> up. >> early to talk. >> about it. The chairman, for his indulgence. >> uh, next, I now recognize Mr. jack from the great state of georgia for five minutes.
▶ 1:57:30>> well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman. And I want to commend you and the the staff of this incredible committee on convening this hearing. It's exciting. As a member of the generation of many of our panelists, it's exciting to see you all accomplishing incredible things. Um, and I'm curious, one of the questions I'd love to start with is just somebody who obviously follows, um, you know, content creators that are working to generate small business leads for people across my community. I'm interested I'm interested in talking about search engine optimization.
▶ 1:57:59I'm interested in learning how you all navigate, uh, navigate that so we can go down the line and we'll start with miss moran and would love for you to explain to this committee how you navigate the topic of seo. >> thank you. I mean, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for seo. I you know, danielle found me through through instagram and now instagram is searchable. When you google someone you know, whatever was in the caption of your post or your video on instagram now comes up on google. That was recent as of like, I think two weeks ago.
▶ 1:58:29Um, so I think, you know, platforms are starting to understand that search engine optimization is not just for small businesses and marketing of products and service based businesses, but also creator content, because there's a lot of really great education and there's a lot of really great businesses using social media because it's cost effective. It's more affordable for businesses to use digital marketing than traditional multi-million dollar productions and commercials. >> wonderful. Thank you. Please.
▶ 1:58:58>> I think we're seeing the rise of blogging again, which is an interesting platform that kind of took a little bit of a break. And as there's more competition in seo, it will become costlier. So going back to education and resources, as well as funding for these small businesses will help them compete in an ever growing landscape. >> on what platforms are you seeing that expansion of blogging? Is it now that twitter or x has a longer long form post, or are you seeing it in different? I mean, it used to be tumblr, but I'm curious what it is now. >> that's a great question.
▶ 1:59:27So there's seo on the platforms and then there's traditional blogs. So a lot of these creators have their own websites where they're seo ing various various things. And substack. Yes. Thank you. Substack as well. >> sure. Thank you. Please. >> so me personally, as a creator, I rely more on seo with optimizing my my landing pages for where I'm trying to drive traffic. But as far as online creation, I'm really in this space of like audience retention. So I build my platforms as far as like strong hooks, pain points, etc.
▶ 1:59:54Going down to the to the bare bones of marketing. So the seo for me is literally just trying to optimize my pages of where I'm driving traffic online. But organically I want people to connect with me, um, with strong hooks, pain points, resolutions, calls to actions, stuff like that. >> helpful context please. >> yes. Thank you, congressman, for your question. I agree with Mr. luciano.
▶ 2:00:16I feel like as a creator, if I do a really good job of making awesome content, making videos, sharing what I know and what I care about, that those people will fight through bad searches to find my website. Uh, but if I just have a mediocre mediocre at everything, seo will not save me. Now that's kind of my mentality.
▶ 2:00:39I don't know if that's literally true like in the numbers, but I think that's a healthy mentality to have as a creator, to try to focus on the video. We do do seo now, especially as the business has gotten bigger, to try to get more people who may have seen a video of mine once on a train seven months ago, and now they want t, you know, that can help that person find my website if they've already had a real interaction with me online.
▶ 2:01:03Um, but I think that as a business owner, you're asking I would be asking a lot of seo to convert somebody who's like, never seen me, doesn't know the brand, doesn't know the t. That's not really how I would look to use it. I think it's that final push to get somebody who already does know you up to the top of the list. >> wonderful. And I've got just a minute left. So I'm curious on an analytics perspective, if you could share for the committee, are you using google trends?
▶ 2:01:31What analytic structure are you using to help at least see how successful your advertising has been? And we could start with you and go as far as we can. >> I mean, each platform has its own analytics tools. I think google alerts are great to see, you know, what people are searching for and what comes up when they are searching. But I have a newsletter on beehive, and beehive has really great analytics for email, open rates and click rates within the email, but each platform has its own tools. >> thank you.
▶ 2:01:59>> yeah, I think it's really important to look at the platform specifically, but I do want to voice that there are aggregate platforms that companies can buy. And I hate to say it, but a lot of times they're wrong. So businesses are then getting this data and it's based on things that aren't correct. So there's another I guess you could say issue that needs to be addressed there. Thank you. >> thank you. Please. >> my bread and butter has always been audience retention.
▶ 2:02:22So I look at retention curves and I look at, you know, I mean tiktok specifically has done a great job of including more analytics as where we can improve our videos. >> so lastly. >> yeah, I also look at creator like the interaction. If I'm getting great comments from people that really care about what I'm talking about, I kind of hope that the rest of it is going well. Um, but you know, in terms of raw analytics, I use the google analytics platform. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I think this is a great hearing. Uh, appreciate you for convening it.
▶ 2:02:52And I yield back my time. >> gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. schmidt for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to thank you for convening this. Thank the witnesses and, um, express my apologies for my late arrival. It wasn't a lack of interest. Um, just, uh, I'll never get back the last five hours of my life in the judiciary committee with director patel. And it was a it was, uh, let's just say I'm in the mindset where, uh, sort of the darkness of human nature is currently on my mind.
▶ 2:03:20So this is an uplifting, uh, bit of tea would do it. That'd be fantastic. Yeah. Although I should say it's spiked with something we imported from china, so, you know, it's a whole different deal. Uh, so sort of in that spirit, let me ask you a question. It's kind of the flip side of what our colleague from maryland asked you. He asked your your initial thoughts using the illustration of child exploitation and icac work online. You know what can be done to make things safer. Let me ask you the flip side of that.
▶ 2:03:46Uh, one of the things the director said to us repeatedly today in multiple contexts, and it wasn't an internet hearing, it was a wide ranging around the world. And yet he came back, I think, 4 or 5 times when asked, you know, what's the one thing we could do in congress that would make america safer? And he said, give us more eyes and tools to find bad guys doing bad things online. And it was it was a constant theme. Let's assume for the sake of discussion, we take that advice and try to figure out from very smart people what things we could do that would be helpful.
▶ 2:04:14From your vantage point, what should we be keeping in mind so that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? Kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Pick the metaphor that you want, but so we don't foul up the good things you're doing online. While we're trying to address the really awful things a lot of folks are doing online, you just go down the line. >> um.
▶ 2:04:32>> I may have a little unconventional angle on this because I spent ten years in china doing chinese social media and in china, political, uh, political, uh, interests were always the thing that was dictating what the people who are, uh, regulating the internet were doing. It wasn't business, it wasn't art, it was politics.
▶ 2:04:51And so I think finding a way that if we have the eyes and the ears to be able to go and catch bad people on the internet, that it can be done in a data forward way as opposed to a politics forward way, and make sure that those tools are used and people know that they're being adjudicated fairly, and not because of any given political cycle. Thank you. >> I'll actually give you an interesting story on on this topic of the bad guys. My my dad was robbed. I'm from maryland.
▶ 2:05:18My dad lives in maryland and he was his side by side was stolen. And um, I, me as a creator, I went to the internet and was like, hey, this is the footage. This is what happened. And literally the entire I'm from cecil county, maryland, cecil county came together through comments and through like singular comments of people going to work. At 4 a.m. In the morning. I saw that side by side riding down the road, and through that we were able to catch the catch the guy.
▶ 2:05:46So I think things like that are really great. And, uh, social media has that community aspect where even if it's not regulated, like single comments can help, things like that go a long way to, to to catch the bad guys. >> thank you. And I think there was a documentary or documentary around cats that did something similar where there were internet sleuths around there.
▶ 2:06:09I won't say the name of the documentary, you'll have to look that one up, but as far as you know, using ai for good scraping is wonderful because if we can catch these guys before the content even airs and I'm talking about explicit images, things that have to do with children, I mean, that is a win. Now, the guidelines need to be clear and explicit. So that is a very, very, very important factor in this sort of, I guess you could say, content policing and, you know, the safety of our kids. Thank you.
▶ 2:06:38>> and I'll zoom out a little bit from just the ai aspect of it. But I think mental health, which I think we can all attest to, community brands can build businesses using community. They can build community first and then launch a product, and they have sales immediately built into that. But I think also, at least for me, I wouldn't be here today if I hadn't had a community online when I was in law school in my darkest days. And the rise of social media really allowed me to have a voice and share it and find like minded people.
▶ 2:07:08And I think for children as well, there's really great tools. There are a lot of, you know, learn how to read, learn how to color, learn your numbers online, educational programing, using social media. That can be really, really helpful. And I think if we regulate and disclose when ai or bad actors are being, you know, when they're caught and they're taken down and banned from using the platform. So more good content keep coming up. >> thank you. And thanks, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back.
▶ 2:07:35I now recognize Mr. petronas from the great state of florida for five minutes. >> thank you chairman. Thank you all for being here. Um, I'm not going to try to lead with questions or lead you with my questions. I'm asking, but let's talk section 230. How important is its existence to each of you? >> can you expand on the section, please? >> if we repealed section 230, would your life change? >> can you expand what the section is? For those who don't know. >> section 230 is providing liability protections to social media companies.
▶ 2:08:06>> I mean, I think that would be really helpful, especially from the legal perspective. I think, again, the education, the regulation, the disclosure limiting liability for creators if they are, you know, being the one violating these platforms. But I think the tech platforms being regulated and held accountable. >> sure. >> I don't know enough about the section to be able to talk about it. As far as limitation of liability, as far as creators are concerned, that would be very helpful in navigating the business and the landscape that's ever changing. >> thank you. Great.
▶ 2:08:37>> thank you. >> yeah, I don't I don't know enough about the section to to form an opinion on it. >> gotcha. >> um, I don't know specifically about that section either, other than I think the responsibility on the side of both the platforms and the creators is important. If we all know that everybody has responsibility for what they're putting up, you generally will get better actions, I think. >> cool. Um, so, uh, parent of a 14 year old and a 17 year old, um, it's, um, it's fascinating.
▶ 2:09:06When I was a kid, I would open up this catalog called jcpenney, and I would circle all the things I wanted for christmas in it. Now, because of what my children now are able to find, they are writing very detailed lists because of how they've been influenced on social media of the exact model, color, style, model, number of what they want. It's crazy.
▶ 2:09:28It the their desire for different colognes and how social media has steered your laughing because you know exactly what I'm talking about and it's so stinking powerful. So now here's my concern. Should the liability, if we were going to try to regulate this for the health of our kids, is it easier for us to say, all right, congress, if you want to fix this, why don't you just fix it with two players?
▶ 2:09:57And that's apple and google? Or do you go out there and create a solution that is going to affect every social media company, or do you do both? I'd love any input you have about that. >> yeah. Thank you for that question. I think it needs to be everything because we don't know the next social media platform and how fast it's going to grow. So instead of being, you know, perhaps behind, we get ahead. And I also think it's really important to look at biometric information and how that's being collected and how that's being used.
▶ 2:10:28>> elaborate. Yeah. >> so I know illinois, I think back in 2008 passed the biometric information privacy act. And that has to deal with and again, please look into this. But to my understanding, it dealt with written consent clear consent and is as soon as the content or the information that was being collected was done with, they delete it and it couldn't be sold.
▶ 2:10:51So I think we need to look into that as far as not only collecting content, but when companies buy it, can they pair it up with the users there so they could create a full, you know, image? And I know the eu. Um, I'll let miss moran speak to that. And the legal implications did pass some, you know, data protection acts. >> I think they're a little more, um, a little stronger in their protections in here. >> I mean, in general, the eu has a lot much stronger protections for things, even beauty products and chemicals and things.
▶ 2:11:18So, yeah, I think looking to other countries that have done similar things, I like the idea of biometric regulation, you know, companies, you know, an influencer swimwear line they use where their customers are coming from. You know, how many times did they shop this year? What colors do they what prints do they like to, you know, design new collections, but how much information are they really getting? And yeah, what are they doing with it? And maybe they're not selling it, but bad actors are coming in and hacking into it and selling it.
▶ 2:11:49>> so do you think again, getting back to the question, do you think if congress is going to act on trying to create some protections, do we just put the expectations on google and apple because they have the market share? Or do you go and pivot to facebook, meta, twitter, tiktok? >> I think as as christina said, I think everybody I think those two for sure apple, google start their metas and they're a monolith. You know, they own instagram, they own edits, they own, um, what's the other one?
▶ 2:12:20What they own whatsapp. Yeah. You know, they're they're huge. So I think going after meta as well. And then your tiktok and snap inc, even uber and lyft, you know they're using social media as well. The dating apps like everybody. >> yeah. Don't get me started on dating apps. >> and then just very briefly I think it's a good thing for the country if everybody plays by the same rules.
▶ 2:12:43But that being said, if we do have 1 or 2 parties that are just bigger, making sure those people play by the rules as a way to make sure everybody else knows the rules have changed would be great. Great, yeah. >> thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. chairman. My time is up. >> appreciate y'all. Uh. >> what a great hearing this has been. We appreciate all of you. And I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for your testimony and for appearing before us today.
▶ 2:13:06Without objection, members have five legislative days to submit additional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the chair, which will be forwarded to the witnesses. So I ask the witnesses to please respond promptly. That happens if there's no further business. Without objection, the committee is adjourned. We want to come down and shake your hand, so don't leave yet. >> thank you.