▶ 0:20:05Subcommittee will come to order. Although I have to admit, you're a pretty orderly crowd. This is very quiet. Everybody's tired out from a long day yesterday. Even Even Mr. We're asking maybe that's the quietest I've seen you for a few minutes.
▶ 0:20:22We're going to get you fired up. Uh thank you for being here. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. We welcome everyone today's hearing on restoring law and order in high crime cities. I now will recognize the gentleman from Alabama to lead us in the pledge of allegiance. And then I ask that we remain standing. That we remain standing for a moment of silence.
▶ 0:20:53To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
▶ 0:21:30I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. Again, I want to welcome everyone here today to another hearing of the subcommittee on oversight. Today, we're going to focus on one very simple truth. We need to restore the rule of law in America's high crime cities. And let's be honest about something from the very start. Crime just didn't rise and come about on its own. It happened because leaders chose so.
▶ 0:22:00Leaders in the democratic run cities have made political choices. choices that put radical ideology before safety, politics before people, and criminals before the safety of the good people in our communities. For years, these cities have embraced soft on crime prosecutors, eliminated cash bail, reduced penalties for repeat offenders. They empowered criminals.
▶ 0:22:30They undermined law enforcement. They weaken the very fabric that keeps our families safe. And here is the truth, the simple truth. It's not complicated. It is just reality. When you reward criminal you get more of it. It's that simple. When you take away consequences, you get chaos. When you weaken the rule of law, you hurt the very people that you claim to protect.
▶ 0:22:59in Charlotte, a community that this committee, many of us on this committee, we went to Charlotte and we saw firsthand in a field hearing, they tried to quote re-imagine criminal justice. Do you know what happened when the re-imagining delivered repeat offenders walking the streets over and over and over again? Charlotte was quite an experience. Now, we've gone as a full committee to New York City. We've gone to Philadelphia.
▶ 0:23:29Then this committee actually went to Charlotte and we saw the work of the left-wing magistrates, of the left-wing judges, of the left-wing attorneys general, of the left-wing prosecutors, the results, the death, the mayhem, and the chaos. It's real. It's not funny. And and you know when you talk when we talk to the people in Charlotte, I'll never forget the father of the one young lady and I believe and I don't even have this in front of me. I'm digressing for a minute.
▶ 0:23:59But this woman was pulled out of her bed, stripped naked, had to get down on her knees, god knows what, and then the perpetrator took a shotgun, put it to her chest, and took her life. The father was there. Man, I wish each and every one of you could have seen that father. He was so upset. He was shaking. He was crying. This was a grown man.
▶ 0:24:25Any of us that are parents, any of us that love anybody in our lives, you can't imagine. You can't, you know, I said at the time, I said, I I wish I could say to you, I know how you feel. I don't. Nobody here, unless you've lost somebody, and we do have somebody who has. Nobody Nobody knows how you feel. We don't. But you could see it.
▶ 0:24:47The guy who did it, he was perpet he was the perpetrator was charged over 40 times and released over and over and over and over. I won't do it 40ome times again. It's sick. And people are living with fear instead of freedom. And we remember another case, the murder of Ireina Zerutska. That's why we went to Charlotte. A murder that should have never happened.
▶ 0:25:17A murder committed by a criminal who obviously had deep-seated problems and was released not one or two or three times, 14 times. 14 times. Ireina loved America. She sat down in the train and he came up behind her. She never met him, never saw him, didn't even look at him. And he violently stabbed her in her neck and murder in front of everybody on that train. She loved America.
▶ 0:25:46Her family actually had her She loved America so much. Her family, she was Ukrainian, had her buried in America because she had such hopes and such desires and such ambitions. The city of Memphis continues to lead the nation in violent crime and not in spite of policy decisions, but because of them. The district attorney in Shelby County, backed by George Soros, fact, may not like it, but it's true, turned cash bail into a last resort.
▶ 0:26:13And when you make accountability a last resort, you make public danger the first result. [snorts] Again and again, criminals are released again and again. They commit crimes. Again and again, innocent people pay the price over and over. It isn't justice, ladies and gentlemen. It's not compassion. It's the literal definition of insanity. It's failure. It's cruel. It's unfair to law-abiding citizens, plain and simple.
▶ 0:26:43Los Angeles, another town, we can name any of them. Almost every city in America, almost career criminals, rapists, cop killers are given leniency through special directives that prioritize ideology over good public safety. The result is predictable. Gangs have been emboldened, communities have been terrorized, and a once great American city has been hollowed out again by lawlessness.
▶ 0:27:08The city of Chicago, everybody knows about Chicago, still the murder capital of America, still drowning in violence and still doubling down on the same bad ideas like eliminating cash bail and making pre-trial release the default. Just last week, a Chicago man known for serially punching women just walks right up to a woman, and it's women always punches right walks right up to her. Big guy, too, by the way. Big guy.
▶ 0:27:37and just punches her in the face. So, I I don't have any words. He was arrested and released for the 20th time. God help you if you're a woman and you're walking down that street. And maybe after he's done, you're not even recognizable anymore. It's nice for you, isn't it? Nice for your family because of the policies we have. If he wasn't released, it wouldn't happen. 20 times. 20 times back on the streets.
▶ 0:28:05And what world are these politicians living in when they design laws that make it easier for someone like that to be released over and over instead of designing laws that protect the women that are continually assaulted? These are dangerous policies. They're bad policies. They have a predictable They hamper law enforcement and they let dangerous people walk our streets. It's that simple. It really isn't that complicated.
▶ 0:28:33In fact, I've spoken with law enforcement, a true story, not only in Charlotte, but in other areas where we've gone on the road, this committee who've told me that often times before they're even done writing up the arrest report and somebody has looked at it before that even happens, they're watching the person being released. They're not even done with the report and they're already out. It's an upside down world. It's a bizarroal world. It's a sick world that we live in and it has to stop.
▶ 0:29:01For four long years, the past administration, the Biden Harris administration, encouraged this mentality, encouraged soft on crime policies, encouraged the unraveling of law and order in what was our beautiful, sparkling cities. That changed earlier this year. And I know not everybody's going to agree with me on this, but it did. Since President Trump was sworn back in office, he has done what he always said he would do. There was no surprise here. Restore common sense. Restore law and order. Restore accountability.
▶ 0:29:32And in August, President Trump deployed the National Guard and federal agents to support local police right here in Washington DC. And people tell me, "Oh, they exaggerate in Washington. Nothing happens." I just think of the people that I know. I think of the gentleman from Kansas whose intern was murdered in Washington, DC. How does his family feel?
▶ 0:29:54young intern comes to DC to learn and he never leaves because he's k killed he's murdered or in my office alone where we've had just in my office numerous people that have been attacked on the streets in the nation's capital in Washington DC and the stories go on and on we have other members members that were carjacked I can go through the list I'm not going to do it it's wrong and you know what it's not funny when it happens to you it's really serious is in August, President
▶ 0:30:24Trump deployed all these folks. And what happens when you enforce the law? Crimes went down. Safety went up. Over 4,000 arrests and an 11% drop in crime citywide. 11% drop in just a few months. Words don't do that. Ideology doesn't do that. Press conferences don't do that. Action does that. Real action, tough action, necessary action.
▶ 0:30:47And because it worked, because results speak louder than slogans, other cities, many of them are asking for the same help. In September, National Guard units were deployed to Memphis and Portland. Plans are underway for Chicago as well. And of course, in many of these cities, Democrat officials are fighting at every step of the way, fighting safety, fighting accountability, fighting success.
▶ 0:31:10And in some areas where there are deployed people who live in the neighborhoods, who live in the areas, we had some folks even in DC said it was the first time in years that they had walked up and down their streets in safety in years. They were so happy. We are here today because the American people do deserve better. They deserve leaders who are going to protect them and take care of them. They deserve prosecutors who enforce the law.
▶ 0:31:38They deserve cities where criminals fear consequences and families feel safe. To our witnesses, I want to thank you for being here. I know it's your precious time. I thank you for speaking on behalf of communities living through the nightmare of bad policy and failed leadership. I even thank the folks that are going to disagree with me. We look forward to your testimony. Thank you. I now will recognize the ranking member, Ms. Crockett.
▶ 0:32:10Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thank you for calling this hearing. Um, since January, Donald Trump has used the full power of the federal government to attack Americans in cities across the country. In Donald Trump's America, you are at increased risk of experiencing militaristic operations in your home. Increased risk of being sub subject to detainment by mass thugs and wannabe v vigilantes.
▶ 0:32:37Increased risk of suffering injuries due to reckless and illegal acts by rogue federal agents. Increased risk of being deported to foreign nations, even if you are an American citizen, and you're at an increased risk of being targeted by federal government for criticizing the president and his friends. Congressional Republicans have completely abandoned their article one powers and have exchanged their responsibility to their constituents with feelalty to the president. They have allowed the president to morph federal agencies into instruments of autocracy.
▶ 0:33:09And as a result, the president has been able to ignore federal law, disregard court orders, and implement the largest payforplay scheme in American history. The White House, well, what's left of it anyway, is literally up for sale. The federal courts have characterized this presidency as quote lawless.
▶ 0:33:27In fact, when ruling against illegal acts committed by the administration, a Republicanappointed federal judge stated, quote, "The court cannot imagine how the public interest might be served by permitting federal officials to flaunt the very laws they have sworn to enforce." In a separate case where the administration was sued for unlawful acts, the judge, also a Republican appointee, stated, quote, "Allowing constitutional rights to be dependent upon the grace of the executive branch would be
▶ 0:33:57a dereliction of duty by this third and independent branch of government and would be against the public interest." But in another case, the court summed it up perfectly by declaring, quote, "As is becoming far too common, we are confronted again with the efforts of the executive branch to set aside the rule of law in pursuit of its own goals." Judiciary Committee Republicans have been completely complicit in this corruption.
▶ 0:34:25But since they're so interested in restoring law and order, I have a couple of suggestions on where they can start. Number one, this is the president of the United States standing beside his best friend, Jeffrey Epstein. As we all know, Mr. Epste is one of the most notorious sexual predators in American history. For eight weeks, the Republicans on this committee have chosen to protect these two men instead of pres providing justice to Mr. Epstein's victims. Now, the administration is panicking.
▶ 0:34:54First, they campaigned on releasing the Epstein files. Then A.G. Bondi and associates did a photo op with the files and she said, and I quote, "The Epstein list is on my desk." Then somehow the Epstein list didn't exist. Then the Epstein files became a Democratic hoax. Now the president is supposedly supportive of releasing the files even though he's currently ignoring a congressional subpoena to do so.
▶ 0:35:24Now, the president is simply crashing out, and it's because he can't seem to explain his special decadesl long relationship with one of the most prominent sexual predators in American history. It's already public that he's in the Epstein files, but his administration is hiding the context of his involvement, if any, with Mr. Epstein's horrific crimes. Now, this is Miss Galain Maxwell.
▶ 0:35:51Miss Maxwell, who obviously helped Jeffrey Epstein traffic more than a thousand women and girls. Well, Donald Trump is now giving her special treatment while she's serving out her prison sentence. He won't even rule out giving her a pardon or commuting her sentence. I don't need to explain why pardoning sex traffickers wouldn't be restoring law and order. this is Secretary of Homeland Security Christy Gnome.
▶ 0:36:22Not only has Secretary Gnome been busy filming propaganda ads, she's also been busy cashing in on millions of taxpayer dollars. In fact, Secretary Gnome has funneled millions of dollars to a company called The Strategy Group. The Strategy Group helped Secretary Gnome win her campaign to become the governor of South Dakota. Corey Luwendowski, her top policy adviser, has worked with the firm and the company CEO is married to Secretary Gnome's chief spokesperson, Mrs.
▶ 0:36:52Trisha Mclofflin. This is what corruption looks like. They're stealing money from the American people's pockets and depositing it into their bank accounts. Now, we move on to yet somebody else. This is the so-called border zar, Tom H. Homeman. Mr. Mr. Hman is on tape accepting $50,000 in cash bribes stuffed in a brown paper bag from an undercover FBI agent. Apparently, Mr.
▶ 0:37:19Hman accepted these bribes in exchange for awarding federal contracts to his friends. Trump's Department of Justice killed the investigation into Mr. Hman's crimes, and congressional Republicans didn't say a mumbling word. Lastly, this is insurrectionist and Nazi sympathizer Ed Martin. It appears that Mr. Martin is functioning as the associate deputy attorney general, partner attorney, director of the fake weaponization working group, and special attorney for mortgage fraud.
▶ 0:37:50All that means is that Mr. Martin is Trump's lap dog, whom the president sends to initiate lawsuits against the president's perceived political opponents. This is what we call organized crime. They're breaking the law, often by stealing taxpayer dollars, covering up their crimes by ending and obstructing investigations, then prosecuting people who call out their unlawful behavior.
▶ 0:38:13And while the Republicans are encouraging this corruption, they're abandoning actual victims of violent crime and ignoring the Republicanled state's 21st century murder crisis. In September's appropriation markup, congressional Republicans re proposed reducing the FBI staff by thousands of positions and underfunding the agency by more than 1 billion. They've proposed slashing resources from the ATF.
▶ 0:38:39They've proposed cutting grants for juvenile justice programs and hate crimes and eliminating the community violence intervention and prevention grants. They're literally defunding the police. So no matter what they say at today's hearing, congressional Republicans have proven that they are not investing in keeping American communities safe from violent crime. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:39:03I thank the ranking member. We're fortunate to have us with us the chairman of the committee of the whole today, Mr. Jordan and the ranking member, Mr. Rascin. I believe Mr. Jordan's not going to do an opening at this time.
▶ 0:39:18Thank Thank you, Mr. general for this important hearing. I look forward to hearing from our uh from our witnesses.
▶ 0:39:22Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Raskin.
▶ 0:39:25Um, thank you very much. Yeah, I think I'll take mine now. I'm going to try to stay for as much of the hearing as I can, but I won't be able to do it at the end. So, okay.
▶ 0:39:31Um, and Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I wanted to uh just begin by underscoring three things that you said that I that I hope people will keep in mind as you hear my remarks. One is that when you reward criminal behavior, you get a lot more of it. Two, you said it's not funny when it happens to you. And alas, I have a personal story to tell. And three, you said letting criminals off the hook is not compassion and it's not justice.
▶ 0:40:00So, I want to agree very strongly with those three points that you just made, Chairman Van Drew, and I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today. Um, just before uh the shutdown, the subcommittee convened a field hearing in Charlotte to advance the tired, I would say, utterly exhausted Republican claim that Democrats are somehow soft on crime.
▶ 0:40:22This is an odd proposition to me given that democratic le cities today are now driving an historic nationwide decrease in crime, especially homicide and violent crime following a dramatic spike in those categories under the first Trump administration.
▶ 0:40:39One North Carolina local news outlet, The News and Observer, captured the very paradoxical nature of that hearing in an article titled, "Republicans are in charge in North Carolina, but somehow Democrats are to blame for violent crime." Well, the News and Observer is correct.
▶ 0:40:57Republicans from the White House to Congress to the state houses are systematically undermining public safety in communities across America with what I would call gangster state policies while claiming that Democrats are to blame. What's really going on? Let's start with the administration's first day in office. How about that? On the first day, Donald Trump pardoned nearly 1,600 January 6th insurrectionists.
▶ 0:41:24people who either plead guilty or were convicted beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers for hundreds and hundreds of crime crimes, including hundreds who violently attacked Capitol police officers, metropolitan police department officers, Montgomery County, Maryland police officers, police officers from Virginia, and so on with baseball bats, steel pipes, Trump flags, Confederate battle flags, broken furniture, and bear mates.
▶ 0:41:54face into people's eyes. In the months since the Department of Justice proceeded to fire dozens of FBI agents and federal prosecutors, the most experienced federal prosecutors, we add career career civil servants appointed under Republican presidents and Democratic presidents simply because they had worked in the January 6th investigation.
▶ 0:42:23Nothing like that had ever happened before in the history of the Department of Justice. And I hope nothing like that will ever happen again. These were career civil servants, expert criminal prosecutors fired because they had prosecuted people for violently attacking police officers, storming the capital, saying they were going to hang Mike Pence in order to overthrow a presidential election. And they got fired because of it.
▶ 0:42:50a massive violation of civil service, constitutional rights, and the principles of public safety. 140 of our officers were injured, wounded, disfigured, disabled, hospitalized on that day. 140 of them. I wish I could take 140 minutes and tell you about each one, but I'll tell you about one of them. I'll tell you about Sergeant Ganell.
▶ 0:43:16Now, Sergeant Canel's written a book about his experience which I recommend highly uh to all of you. His family were immigrants to America. He became a citizen uh as as a kid and he fell in love with police work and his his family took a trip to Washington and they visited the capital and he met police officers here and he had a dream that he would become a capital police officer one day and what do you know he became a capital police officer after he
▶ 0:43:46served in the army and he went to Iraq and he went to Afghanistan and then he was here on January 6th and he said he fa faced violence which he described as medieval in nature that was far worse than anything he had seen in combat in in Iraq or in Afghanistan. And he fought for hours and hours. And he was so wounded they destroyed a rotator cuff uh cuff.
▶ 0:44:14His left foot was smashed uh and destroyed. He couldn't lift his shoulder. He was beaten in the face in the head. He did everything he could to try to get back to work and the force told him he was just no longer physically fit to do it. Forced to by the insurrection Donald Trump incited according to a bipartisan vote of the House of Representatives, which 57 of a 100 senators voted to convict him on.
▶ 0:44:43The most widespread bipartisan vote in the history of presidential impeachments. Uh and he was that wounded, that disfigured, that incapacitated. He could no longer serve. He had to leave his dream job and is now living on a fraction of what his income was before because of that violence that took place. That's that's just one story. I wish you could know all of the stories. Maybe you know the story of Michael Fenone. He was a DC cop. He wasn't even on duty here.
▶ 0:45:13He heard about it that the capital was under attack on the radio. He immediately drove to the Capitol, got off several blocks away, ran to the scene to join the police officers and he got pulled into the crowd after fighting for hours and he had a heart attack and he was afraid that he was going to die and he begged them. He said, "I have four daughters. Spare my life." And his life was [clears throat] just barely spared.
▶ 0:45:41There's supposed to be a plaque up in the House of Representatives to the officers because of their uh indomitable valor and courage that day, but the speaker won't put that up. And they won't give a dollar to the families of any of these uh police officers whose lives have been so fundamentally altered.
▶ 0:46:00But they did sneak a little provision in to give a million dollars to each Republican senator who were inconvenienced because they were treated like other American citizens and their phone records were subpoenaed because they were involved in the conspirators of that attack. That's where the sympathies run. Each of those guys was going to get a million dollar payout at least. I think I heard Lindsey Graham today say he wanted tens of millions for what happened to him. What happened to him? Did he get sprayed in the face with bear mace?
▶ 0:46:29Did he have to fight for hours to protect American democracy? No. His phone records were subpoenaed the same way any American's phone records can be subpoenaed if they're involved in a criminal conspiracy or if their name comes up in a criminal investigation. And if you don't like that, you should support the bill that Chairman Jordan brought before us in markup yesterday, which we passed unanimously numerous times. That would save all Americans from abuse of that process.
▶ 0:46:57We've been trying to do that for nearly a decade, I believe, uh with from this committee and the Senate has consistently rejected it. They're not interested in protecting anybody else's civil liberties. They just want their million-doll jackpot payout. Uh well, in any event, um so that was the story on January 6, and this administration's done everything in its power now to reward the people who participated in it.
▶ 0:47:23Meanwhile, they're firing the officers, the FBI agents, the prosecutors who tried to prosecute it. Now, I want to tell you though, a lot of people would want to sweep the whole thing under the rug and they think it's over. But, you know, crime doesn't really work like that. And criminals don't work like that. As the good chairman said when he kicked this off, if you forgive crime, if you pardon it, if you let it go, you're going to see more of it.
▶ 0:47:45Well, let me tell you a little story about that because we've lots of cases of these pardon criminals going out and committing other crimes. Let me tell you the ones that we found that have been committed by people that Donald Trump pardoned on his first day in office.
▶ 0:48:03They've gone on to do terroristic threats, home invasion, burglary, vandalism, theft, felony assault with a deadly weapon, discharge of a firearm, manslaughter, drunk driving, grand theft, aggravated kid kidnapping, reckless driving, reckless homicide, invasion of privacy, conspiracy to commit murder as a hate crime, possession of child pornography, violation of protective orders, assault, violation of anti-stalking order, DUI, battery, felony, malicious
▶ 0:48:33bodily injury, rape, forgery, sexual assault, illegal gun possession, drug possession, conspiracy to murder. Who's responsible for all that? These people were pardoned by Donald Trump. Sentences commuted out on the streets. Now, these people do win all of that. Let me tell you about one of them. I told you I was going to get a little bit personal here as I take the subject raised today personally. This guy's name is Taylor Toronto.
▶ 0:49:00He was pardoned after being convicted of multiple crimes on January 6th. Uh multiple crimes on January 6th, but he was rearrested in 2023 for illegal possession of hundreds of rounds of ammunition and two guns and a machete after he was live streaming from the woods near former President Barack Obama's house.
▶ 0:49:27He went there with all the ammunition and guns and he threatened to set off a car bomb. Well, on the way there, he showed up at the elementary school two blocks away from my house where all three of my kids went to elementary school. And he told listeners that he was at the elementary school near my house on his live stream. He said he was near my house. That's where he was headed next.
▶ 0:49:52and he didn't want to tell anybody where I lived because he said, "I want Rascin all to my wife and I and my kids were not at home when he stopped there on his way down to Barack Obama's house. This is a January 6th insurrectionist who's been pardoned by Donald Trump.
▶ 0:50:13You may have read about him recently in the newspaper because at the sentencing uh for other crimes, two Department of Justice lawyers mentioned that he would participated in the riots at January 6 and his superior officers at the Department of Justice objected to the fact that uh they that these DOJ lawyers had referred to the to the January 6 riots and suspended them. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
▶ 0:50:43I don't know if they took were they suspended? They they were these lawyers were reprimanded for what they had done and they were suspended simply for mentioning the reality that January 6 had taken place. Look, it's not just January 6. Trump recently pardoned crypto executive Changpang Xiao, who'd been sentenced to four months in prison in order to pay one of the largest corporate penalties in history after pleading guilty to enabling money laundering through his crypto exchange.
▶ 0:51:09According to prosecutors, he aided Hamas He aided al Qaeda and other terrorist networks, but Donald Trump pardoned him. He also pardoned Ross, the creator of Silk Road, an online black market that allowed thousands of drug dealers to distribute hundreds of kilos of illegal drugs, including heroin, cocaine, and opioids.
▶ 0:51:32Take uh Glain Maxwell, who was transferred from a real prison to a prison camp after the number two at DOJ went to see her. On July 22nd, the Democrats on the oversight committee moved to subpoena her. They got Republicans to come over and agree. The next day, she was sent her subpoena. And the next day after that, July 24th, that's when Todd Blanch went to see her, not to ask about more co-conspirators, not to investigate whether other crimes had been committed.
▶ 0:52:01No, he was trying to find out exactly what she might say about Donald Trump when she came to Congress. And satisfied with her answers, President Trump, the great champion of law and order, apparently authorized and approved her transfer to a prison camp where no sex offender had ever been sent before because they're not allowed because sex offenders like Glain Maxwell are considered violent offenders. But that wasn't it.
▶ 0:52:27It wasn't just enough that she got to cut the line and get there in in one or two days when people were waiting 6 months, 8 months, two years to transfer after proving they have a compelling reason to do so. No, she was transferred overnight. She gets there and then she gets the superstar Trump hotel treatment. She gets room service in her cell. Ever hear of that before? Well, she gets meals brought to her. She gets special exercise privileges there.
▶ 0:52:56She gets special visitors. They come whenever she wants them to come and they're allowed to bring their computers. And they don't even deny that. They just say they want the people who brought that as whistleblowers to members of this committee, they want those people punished. And her lawyer was bragging about the fact that they were punished.
▶ 0:53:16In other words, that they suffered retaliation for speaking out when this committee has always stood up for the rights of whistleblowers to tell the truth about abuse of law in America. Well, they've taken a wrecking ball to the federal government's ability to investigate and prosecute criminals. The DOJ is hemorrhaging thousands of lawyers.
▶ 0:53:38They're having a very difficult time recruiting people to this absurd environment where the president has taken over all prosecutotorial functions and now they are wasting resources just to follow the political program of Donald Trump. You've seen how he fired his own US attorney, Mr. Seabbert in uh Virginia, because he wouldn't bring charges against James Comey. That's what Donald Trump wanted. So he sacks him.
▶ 0:54:07He puts in another uh attorney who's never been a prosecutor before, never been an assistant US attorney or anything. She's so incompetent, the judge in the Comey case now says that they're going to have to throw it out likely because she messed up the entire grand jury indictment process. And yet he continues to go after his political opponents. What a radical distortion of justice that is. And what a waste of our resources.
▶ 0:54:34They are draining resources away from human sex trafficking, away from child sex exploitation, away from drug trafficking to go and either participate in their anti-immigration campaign or just to do whatever Donald Trump wants them to do.
▶ 0:54:52So my friends, this is the record that they want to brag about when we've got real Democratic mayors across America who are and some Republican mayors, but mostly Democratic mayors who are actually reducing crime and fighting crime. I what an outrage this is. One of the other things they did when they first got in was they got rid of hundreds of grants that were being given to local law enforcement, to the police. Talk about defunding the police. Well, they defunded the police.
▶ 0:55:21Certainly anything having to do with human sex trafficking, anything having to do with child sex exploitation, they just got rid uh of it all. So, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad you said exactly what you did when you kicked this off. It's not funny when it happens to you, and it's not when you've got a pardoned January 6th person coming to your house with weapons on his way down to Barack Obama's house with a machete. Now, that's not funny.
▶ 0:55:45And also, when you reward criminal behavior, as this administration has done from day one, you're going to get a lot more of it. And they're headed to turning us into a gangster state. Uh, and I thank you, and I look forward to hearing the testimony of the witnesses. Thank the ranking member, and later on, I'm going to reply to a good number of those issues. I will say one thing, threats are horrible for all of us. My wife has been threatened, I've been threatened, my kids, and my grandkids. It's really awful. It's terrible.
▶ 0:56:15My wife would, just so you know, I mean, I can relate to what you're saying there. My wife was threatened that she would be beaten. They would throw her on the hood of a car, rape her, and murder her, burn the house down, and kill my children and my grandchildren. So, um, that is not a uniquely Democrat, Republican, conservative, or liberal issue. The other issues, and I will ask the committee if we can, and then we'll move on here. The issue at hand is what's happening on our streets.
▶ 0:56:43Those subjects you brought up are worthy of debate and we can have a separate committee on all of it, all the things you spoke about, but I'm talking about the average Joe on the street in their city where they want to live their life with their children and their grandchildren as well. It's a little bit different than where we went with that, which was highly political, worthy of discussion, but not really what this hearing is about. Those are all average crimes that happen every day on our streets, including my street.
▶ 0:57:14Okay, I'm not going to do this because I don't want to. Even mine when
▶ 0:57:18you cannot separate one crime from
▶ 0:57:20There there are people that are in prison because of some of the things they were going to do and got caught to me. But nevertheless, it's not an average crime. I'm a member of Congress. It is different. I'm talking about just the guy that comes home from work and is walking on the street and he stops by the grocery store and he gets killed. It's a different thing, just the average daytoday thing. We'll talk about it more. I appreciate you, Mr. Raskin. With that being said, um, all other opening statements will be included in the record and we're going to introduce today's witnesses.
▶ 0:57:50Finally, your time. Uh, we'll start with Mr. Raphael Manuel. Mr. Manuel is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute where his research focuses on criminal justice and policing. He is the author of criminal injustice and serves in the New York State Advisory Committee of the US Commission on Civil Rights. Mr. Marorrow, Mr. Paul J. Marorrow is a former law enforcement officer having served for 23 years with the New York Police Department.
▶ 0:58:17During his tenure, he served as the commanding officer of the NYPD's legal bureau and as the executive officer for operations and analysis in NYPD's intelligence bureau. Thank you for your service. Thank you for being here. Miss Tina McKini, Miss McKini, this is the hardest one. These are always hard. Is the mother of officer Joseph McKini who was a Memphis police officer killed in the line of duty on April 12th, 2024.
▶ 0:58:46The suspect was out on bond. And I want everybody to listen to this one paragraph. The suspect was out on bond from an arrest the previous month on charges of possession of modified semi-automatic weapons and grand lararseny. Everybody heard that. I'm sorry. I I got no words. I'm sure everybody tells you the same thing. Thank you. Thank you for being here and trying to help other people in the future. Nancy Lavine, did I pronounce it correctly? Good.
▶ 0:59:16Dr. Lavine is the dean of the Ruters School of Criminal Justice where her work focuses on applying data and research to criminal justice policy. She previously served in the Department of Justice during the Biden administration. We will thank you for being here. I'm a Rucker grad. I went predental premedical. So, I went to Ruckers. We may disagree, but Ruckers is a good on issues, but Ruckers is a good school. Uh, we're going to begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and raise your right hand?
▶ 0:59:50Do you swear under penalty of perjury the testimony you're about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief. So help you God. Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative and thank you. And please be seated. Please know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety.
▶ 1:00:15Accordingly, we ask that you do summarize and complete your summary of your testimony in five minutes. Mr. Manuel, we will start with
▶ 1:00:25Well, thank you all so much for the opportunity to offer remarks on the allimportant topic of public safety in America cities, which is an issue that I've spent the last decade working on. I'd like to begin by suggesting that in public debates over questions of safety, far too much weight is put on aggregate crime measures that often fail to fully capture or accurately describe the risk of criminal victimization faced by America's urban residents. We [clears throat] often talk about crime in national, statewide, or citywide terms. It's an understandable colloquialism that I'm sure I've been guilty of, too.
▶ 1:00:55But whether a city's crime levels are up or down, while important, can mass some important realities. In my home city of New York, for example, data from 2010, 15, and 20 illustrate that approximately 50% of the city's reported crime occurs on just 4% of the city's street segments. The experiences of residents living on block clusters where so much of a given city's crime concentrates are radically different from those living in the neighborhoods with very little crime.
▶ 1:01:20To paint the picture a little more vividly, consider that last year, residents of Chicago's 19th district, which I used to call home, experienced a homicide rate of just 2.3 per 100,000. In the sixth district, by contrast, the homicide rate was 73.4 per 100,000, almost 32 times greater.
▶ 1:01:38I make this point for a couple of reasons, but one is to just illustrate that even in cities that have experienced recent declines in serious crime, there remain microgeographic pockets where serious violence continues to occur at levels that we should all find unacceptable and should therefore be working to alleviate with urgency irrespective of aggregate crime declines at the citywide level. The fact remains that in too many city neighborhoods, criminal violence is a serious problem.
▶ 1:02:05And that problem is one that is too often characterized by a particular type of failure, which is the failure to incapacitate violent criminal offenders who have thoroughly demonstrated through repeated criminal conduct that they have no desire to play by society's rules. A few numbers to consider. In Chicago, on average, a shooting or homicide suspect is arrested nearly 12 times. In Oakland, homicide victims and suspects alike have an average of 10 prior arrests.
▶ 1:02:33In Baltimore, the number is nine, and right here in Washington, DC, it's 11. These numbers are bad enough in the abstract, but they take on a more urgent character when they are illustrated by specific cases. And because of the work I do, I'm often sent stories of heinous and tragic crimes committed by offenders who had no business being out on the street. We already heard about one such case in the case of Arena Zerutska in Charlotte, North Carolina.
▶ 1:02:58But I want you all to consider another case out of Charlotte which has not gotten nearly enough attention, which is the shooting death of Jace Edwards. He was just four years According to news reports, one of the four men arrested in that case had previously been charged in nearly a dozen car thefts. And he was arrested again just days before the shooting with a firearm. Unbelievably to the uninitiated, he was allowed to postpon and was released yet again.
▶ 1:03:26A second suspect in that case had racked up 38 charges and had multiple prior incarcerations for serious felonies including firearms and other violent These examples all elicit the same question which is why why were these offenders out? And the answer in many cases is that somewhere down the line policy makers made a choice.
▶ 1:03:50They made a choice to pursue decarceration for its own sake because they were convinced that doing so was the best way to serve The good news is that none of those decisions are written in stone. Our leaders can and must make different choices. In recent years, we've seen some encouraging examples of federal, state, and local leaders doing just that.
▶ 1:04:09In the state of Tennessee, for example, lawmakers have, thanks to the leadership of Tennessee House Speaker Cameron Ston, passed legislation to amend their state's constitution so that judges there can have the right to detain dangerous criminal defendants in all cases. They also passed a truth and sentencing law to ensure offenders serve the majority of their sentences before they can be released. Last year, lawmakers in Louisiana took a similar step with their own truth and sentencing measure, much to the chagrin of criminal justice reform advocates in addition to an effort to eliminate discretionary parole.
▶ 1:04:39And of course, President Trump's administration through executive orders and actions related to policing um and enforcement initiatives like the Memphis Safe Task Force and Project Safe Neighborhoods in Chicago, the latter of which has led to a nearly 300% increase in federal gun prosecutions just through the end of October.
▶ 1:04:56Now look, there remains a lot of work to be done and so I'd like to close with the suggestion that I hope many of you will reach out to discuss further at a future date, which is that Congress should consider an omnibus crime bill along the lines of what was done in 1994. This time with a particular focus on police recruitment and retention, fun funding the acquisition of force multiplying uh technologies, incentivizing better data collection, and incentivizing the adoption of stronger penalties for habitual offenders.
▶ 1:05:24Thank you once again for the invitation to address this body and contribute to these important discussions. I look forward to answering any of your questions. Thank you, Mr. Manuel. Mr. Mororrow, you may begin.
▶ 1:05:40Chairman, ranking members, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is Paul Morrow. I served 26 years with the NYPD, including many years in counterterrorism following 911. I retired four years ago. I'm now a practicing attorney. My perspective is shaped by decades on the street and doing investigations and by my concern for the city that I still call home. New York's recent criminal justice system and its history is one of collapse, renewal, and now sadly decline.
▶ 1:06:09The city's recovery from the dark days of the 70s and 80s began in the 1990s under mayors who prioritized policing and accountability and was aided by the bipartisan 1994 crime bill co-authored by then Senator Joe Biden and signed by President Clinton. Broken Windows policing complemented that effort by addressing a low-level disorder before it grew into something worse. Enforcement was often limited to summones, not jail, and was responsive to community complaints.
▶ 1:06:38neighborhoods revived and the entire city became a model of recovery. After the new challenges of 9/11, the NYPD created a world-class counterterrorism apparatus without sacrificing safety. Despite expectations post 911, crime continued to fall under Mayor Bloomberg and Commissioner Ray Kelly. Later, during Commissioner William Bratton's tenure of 2014 through 2016, index crime fell another 9% while the jail population dropped 18%.
▶ 1:07:07proof that safety and reduced incarceration can coexist. In fact, over the 20 years at that point, crime had fallen 76% while the jail population was cut in half. We had hit the sweet spot. Over the ensuing years, however, that success has eroded. Reforms such as no cash bail and other changes have coincided with visible disorder. Disorderly conduct summones, for instance, the lynchpin of quality of life enforcement fell 91% after 2015.
▶ 1:07:37Recruitment and retention are in crisis, though murders and shootings are down this year. Major felonies are up 16% since 2010 in New York, and lowlevel recidivism is universal. Behind those figures lies a deeper problem. The federal national crime victimization survey shows that the vast majority of crime now goes unreported nationwide. Street conditions, in my own experience in New York, bear this out. For instance, homeless encampments are referred to agencies with no enforcement power.
▶ 1:08:07Shops close after repeated harassment and burglaries go unreported. Officers are not lazy, they are overwhelmed. A small fraction of offenders in chronically mentally ill drive much of this disorder. Research suggests that incarcerating or housing just a small fraction of the worst offenders would visibly improve conditions. And [snorts] an uncomfortable truth is that women are disproportionately targeted by targeted by the mentally ill.
▶ 1:08:36Likewise, the New York Times found that 327 repeat offenders account for roughly onethird of all New York shoplifting arrests. Stores write off these losses losses as shrinkage and pass the cost on to consumers. In New York, we now lock up our toothpaste, not our perpetrators.
▶ 1:08:56At the same time, and most alarmingly, the city is closing the Riker's Island jail and replacing it with four dispersed jails that cut the prisoner bed count by a full 23. This is a guaranteed recipe for failure. Our newly elected mayor, Zaram Mandani, has famously pledged to lean into all of these reforms. Reducing police headcount, replacing officers with social workers, and eliminating key police units. Nationwide, the role of the National Guard remains widely misunderstood.
▶ 1:09:26In New York, since 9/11, the Guard has manned New York City transit hubs without incident. Governor Kathy Hokll's deployment of a thousand troops to the subways has been touted by her for providing a 42% drop in subway crime. Note that the guard does not answer 911 calls. They provide deterrence through visibility. New York has long been a testing ground for criminal justice policy. We know what works if we are allowed to do it. Federal government can help with funding.
▶ 1:09:54Certainly, it can even condition funding on best practices by local agencies. But most importantly, federal leaders can help change the narrative. When leaders support police, that message is felt on the street. When they vilify police, that message is felt even more. Is it any wonder that since 2019, assaults on NYPD officers are up First duty of government is to protect its citizens. Public safety should never be subordinated to politics.
▶ 1:10:21Every community, whatever its politics, wants the same thing, to live safely and with dignity. Those who secure that safety deserve our support, not our scorn. I thank you all for allowing me the privilege of speaking with you here Thank you, Mr. Marorrow. Miss McKenna, you may begin.
▶ 1:10:46Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for allowing me to speak today. My name is Tina McKini and I'm the mother of Memphis police officer Joseph McKini. lovingly known as Rusty. Rusty died in the line of duty April 12th, 2024 in Memphis, Tennessee. He was just 26 years old. He was a devoted father who had just purchased wedding rings and was eager to build a life with his fiance.
▶ 1:11:16[snorts] Rusty lived a lifetime only few get to have. He had a large family who adored him and he loved to travel. If you said you wanted to go anywhere, he was there with you. He wanted to go. His eagerness was undeniable. He was a good kid. The kind every parent hoped for.
▶ 1:11:43He lived a full life [snorts] with an eagerness to help. and it lasted his far entire short life. Way too short. Rusty was an Eagle Scout, a distinction that takes years of dedication and discipline and service from camping in every kind of Memphis Midsouth weather to countless [snorts] hours of community service.
▶ 1:12:09He lived the values of scouting every day and it shaped the man he became. [snorts] Deep down, he always wanted to be a police officer. When he was five or six, he would dress up as an officer for Halloween and ride on his electric police motorcycle all through the yard. When he was older, looking for a career, he would chat with officers who encouraged him to join the police department. It's hard to write about him.
▶ 1:12:38I feel cheated and I feel robbed of all the what could have been and the life he could have had. He was loved by so many. And after the news of his death, stories poured in from friends, co-workers, and strangers. A young man shared how Rusty made him feel welcome when he had started his first job. He was nervous, but Rusty took him in and made him feel a part of the team.
▶ 1:13:05And that kindness Rusty showed him stayed with him.
▶ 1:13:11And a co-orker of mine had told me her daughter had received a ticket from Rusty when [snorts] he was on the force and shared how she remembered him as kind and respectful. [snorts] But the one thing everyone said from the hundreds who attended his service was that Rusty and our family did did not deserve this tragedy. And [snorts] they were right. This wasn't just a tragedy. It was a failure of leadership and a failure of accountability.
▶ 1:13:41My [snorts] son was a police officer, but he was also a victim. [laughter] A victim of repeat offenders, one [snorts] who was a juvenile and a victim of failed policies and failed leaders.
▶ 1:14:00God gives us a life, but he doesn't promise how long it will last or how good it will be. Instead, [snorts] he gives us choices. Choices that shape the life we live. And Rusty [snorts] chose service, compassion, and integrity. Those two criminals, they repeatedly chose violence and a life of crime. Those young men were out on bond despite being arrested just weeks earlier for serious crimes.
▶ 1:14:28[snorts] and they are responsible for my son's death through their actions and by their choices they made. [snorts] Dangerous repeat offenders are not isolated incidents for the city of Memphis.
▶ 1:14:45It is a result of years of political neglect, soft on crime policies and a justice system that has prior prioritized leniency over accountability and judges who release high-risisk offenders and district attorneys who start pilot programs to identify cases to downgrade to misdemeanors. [snorts] management and long delays with issuing car tags made it impossible for officers to enforce enforce basic traffic laws, contributing to a breakdown in public safety.
▶ 1:15:17Memphis has also been losing officers not just to violence but to attrition. They have faced reduced pay, loss of benefits, and lack of support from city leaders. The Memphis Police Department has struggled to retain talent while crime surged. And while our leaders debate referendums and engage in political optics, family like mine pay the ultimate price.
▶ 1:15:39Public officials entrusted with leadership who have repeatedly failed to uphold the standards of their position, raising serious concerns about judgment and accountability. Some proposed defunding law enforcement and introduced proposals to cut police budgets. Those [snorts] proposals were widely criticized and widely rejected.
▶ 1:16:01The school board has mismanaged children's futures in Memphis. [snorts] Former Shelby County School Superintendent Dr. Murray Fagan stated, "Many members of the board chose chaos over children." And I believe the statement to be true. Students poor performance is beyond poor. Our school system ranks in the bottom 50% statewide. Students l lack basic math skills and reading skills.
▶ 1:16:28Despite spending exorbitant amounts of money per student, the district has failed to deliver results. Millions in state of and federal funds have been spent. Yet proficiency in some areas has dropped as low as 5%. Instead of investing in proven solution, the board has spent millions on studies and administrative
▶ 1:16:49Educational failures are not separate from the rise in crime. They are deeply connected. A weak education system feeds weak communities and weak communities suffer the consequences of crime and strain police. Accountability must be more than a word. It must be a standard. It [snorts] must apply to individuals who commit violent acts and to those leaders whose decisions enable those acts.
▶ 1:17:15Without accountability, justice is incomplete and safety is compromised. Police officers take the job knowing the worst may happen, but it's up to those in the position of power to protect them. They ensure they have the best environment to work in and to know that the system will work together to make a safe place for all to call home.
▶ 1:17:38My son went to work, as do all officers, with a sense of hope and optimism that they can make a difference and a hope of coming home to the families who love them. [snorts] I urge you to listen to the voices of grieving families like mine. Rusty deserved better. Memphis deserves better. Rusty had a job with MPD, but he was so much more to everyone in his personal life. We all lost so much when he was taken from us.
▶ 1:18:08My son He gave his last saving a fellow officer and pushing her to the ground when the bullets started to fly. He gave his life serving a city that tragically did not protect him in return. And by continually allowing repeat offenders to be released and to commit more crimes, crime has taken a toll on me.
▶ 1:18:38And I would not travel to Memphis unless it was necessary. And and many individuals felt the same. But with the increased state troopers and federal agencies embedded in Memphis after the death of my son, Memphis is beginning to change. People are venturing out and people are trying to enjoy the city
▶ 1:19:00and they are thanking city officials for allowing those agencies to come in. Rusty died a hero. He protected others as he died. He gave his life. It's time for our leaders to protect those who remain.
▶ 1:19:17ing the National Guard and keep the federal agencies who are involved in the city [snorts] until criminals realize crime doesn't pay anymore in Memphis and playtime is over. Thank you for allowing me to speak on behalf of my son and the family in our community in Memphis.
▶ 1:19:38Thank you for your courage. You represent many, many other people. I see his handsome face there. Uh it is unfortunately now the story of most major American cities. Dr. Lavine, you may begin.
▶ 1:19:53Chairman Van Drew, Ranking Member Crockett, Mr. Rascin, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. Let's start with some facts. Violent crime is down to prepandemic levels or even lower in most every US city. That started around 2022, not when Mr. Trump started office in January of this year. Nationwide violent crime is down 50% from its peak in 1991.
▶ 1:20:23But despite these gains, I'm not going to sit here and say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." That's because every bit of violent crime is unacceptable. Every life lost is a tragedy. We can do more and we should do more. That said, the reductions in violent crime rate that I just quoted to you, those are real statistics. We're clearly doing something right. And to that, I say, if it's working, don't break it.
▶ 1:20:55That that's precisely what this administration is doing. It's breaking it by deploying armed guards to cities uninvited by local leaders, by cancelling grants that support violent crime interventions, by cutting support for crime victim services, and by reducing investments in research on what works to promote safety. Now, to be clear, I'm certain that sending in the guard will suppress crime in the short run.
▶ 1:21:25The research is strong that increasing police presence can reduce crime, but much pres depends on how they're trained, how they're deployed, and how they interact with community members. Sending in a surge of National Guards and other federal officers into cities can keep residents away for fear. It can curb tourism. [clears throat] It can hurt local economies. The Guard lacks local expertise. They don't know the stakeholders holders, the players.
▶ 1:21:55They don't know how to resolve issues peacefully because of that lack of local knowledge. That can erode trust even after they pull out because residents don't distinguish between one type of law enforcement officer and another. Guards aren't trained for civilian policing and things like deescalation and crisis intervention. That type of training matters. Is there a better role for law enforcement? federal law enforcement in dealing with local crime issues.
▶ 1:22:26Absolutely. One example is DOJ's project safe neighborhoods PSN. It's been in operation since 2001. It's uh been going strong across various administrations. It's a partnership between US attorneys offices and the local police. It's a proven success. It's been rigorously evaluated. It it can result in reduced violence.
▶ 1:22:50But this administration is breaking that too, advising US attorneys to divert resources away from PSN to, you guessed it, immigration So, aside from federal law enforcement presence or partnership, what are other ways to reduce violence? I'll lift up one example from my home city of Newark, New Jersey, the Newark Community Street Team. It's a community-based violence intervention effort.
▶ 1:23:20It launched in 2015. Since then, homicides are down 65% in the city of Newark. But federal funding for the Newark Community Street Team was cut this year along with dozens of other grants for community violence intervention programs.
▶ 1:23:43Whatever we do to address issues of violent crime, we should make sure that it's a wise use of taxpayer dollars, research and evaluation can help us to discern that return on investment. What works, what doesn't, what should be continued, what should be disbanded. But the Department of Justice canceled dozens of grants to evaluate crime reduction programs. It also canled translational efforts like crimesolutions.gov.
▶ 1:24:11gov, which helps make findings from research accessible to local leaders, practitioners, police chiefs so that they can implement evidence-based practices. And what about the victims? Services can help them heal, but they're also essential in preventing If Congress truly cares about violent crime, they care about victims, right?
▶ 1:24:36Yet, this administration terminated hundreds of millions of dollars in victim service grants. In closing, safer communities come from evidence. They come from partnership. They come from respect for local expertise. So, instead of letting this administration break strategies that work, Congress should restore and invest in them. Thank you.
▶ 1:25:04Thank you for your testimony. And we will now begin with questions. We will proceed under the fiveminute rule. And I am going to recognize the gentleman from the great state of Alabama.
▶ 1:25:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh we've seen crime rise in Democrat ran cities, including in my home state of Alabama in the last in the two largest Democrat uh ran cities, that would be Birmingham and Montgomery. Senator Tubable has noted that he would be supportive of the National Guard coming in to help local police departments in Alabama with rising crime. Uh Mr. Mangle, h how have we seen an improvement enough that would warrant the National Guard coming to Alabama from these other cities where we obviously like DC where we've deployed the guard.
▶ 1:25:48Yeah. Yeah. So, I I do think that there's some pretty significant evidence that the deployment of the National Guard, whether it's in Washington DC or in some of the other places where it's been deployed, has had a beneficial deterrent effect through the presence, right? Um the problem to the extent that there is one is that those benefits are going to be limited. Um, and so I think it's best that those kinds of efforts are coupled with other federal uh, agency deployments and prioritizations of things like 922G cases, which are, you know, gun prosecutions, gang prosecutions, etc.
▶ 1:26:18Yeah. You know, so far uh, since operation started in DC, we've had nearly 3,100 arrest and 300 firearms seized. What does that tell you about the depth of unchecked criminal activity prior to the National Guard being here? I mean, I think it tells you that, you know, Washington DC, like many other American cities, has been for a long time underpoliced, right? When you have additional resources coming in and they're able to make significant numbers of arrests, that tells you that, you know, the city did not have what it needed beforehand.
▶ 1:26:46And that should be a lesson to the leaders to add to the force size.
▶ 1:26:51And if the resources for policing are there, Mr. Marorrow, you may want to touch on this too as well. um these soft on crime DAs when they just turn the folks about back out, doesn't that kind of doesn't that go against I mean just certainly the morale in the police departments if we have politicians criticizing police officers um when we're soft on them after they go through the trouble to make an arrest to try to to get somebody put them behind the bars and then we turn them right back out and in the case of Ms.
▶ 1:27:17McKenna we have officers and individuals attacked again um doesn't Mr. tomorrow. Doesn't that hurt the morale as as even if we have the policing resources if we turn the people right back out? Isn't that going to create a problem for
▶ 1:27:31Well, of course it does, sir. Um and the result can be in some instances therefore a lack of enforcement. If you make, let's say, an arrest for a low-level offense that should go downtown, so to speak, and when you get there, the uh it's DPD, as they call it, decline prosecution. When that happens regularly, you begin to understand that it's not what the system you work for wants.
▶ 1:27:58And so I'm very cognizantly choosing that example because [snorts] it's one of the things that led to the beginning of the disorder in our subways. The lifeblood of New York City is the subway system. That's the city's circulatory system. And jumping fairs, as they call it, fair beating is one of the ways that the entire uh policing revolution that we had in the '9s was really really found.
▶ 1:28:24It was really founded on that as one of the principal enforcement mechanisms because not everybody who jumps the turn style is a member of a robbery crew. Certainly, but if you are a member of a robbery crew, you're not paying the fair. And so when somebody jumps the turn style and you give them just a summons and it turns out that they have two robbery warrants on them, well now you have the ability to take them off the street and that [snorts] has a cascading effect on the safety in the system.
▶ 1:28:53And that was really one of the broken windows lynch pins. And ultimately what happens is when that is no longer enforced, and I should mention that the district attorneys in New York, we have five, at least four, literally don't enforce that crime. It's on uh right in the day one, the infamous day one memo of Alvin Bragg saying we're not going to enforce that anymore. Now, I would argue that that's not even within his power. That's the legislature that has to repeal an entire statute. Nobody's challenged that. And so on it goes.
▶ 1:29:24But consequently, people who would have been kept off that system now feel with impunity to jump to turn style, go in through the outdoor, they don't pay, and now they have easy access to a place that they can commit crimes, get out of there quickly, etc. And so, in addition to morale, it leads to a lack of enforcement.
▶ 1:29:44So, they basically just lose uh concern about if if it's that broken window principle, if you don't stop them there, then the crime just escalates. and certainly individuals who are jumping the turn styles. You said Governor Ho Kathy Hoel Hokll, right, had moved a guard into the subways and they were just there as a presence to deter, right? That's kind of they're not really arresting people.
▶ 1:30:04No, no, they don't. They don't follow the 911 system. It's not like they're getting deployed to go on particular police jobs, quote unquote. They're there for what's called their omniresence. And you see it all over New York. It's been underway as as I mentioned since 911. So that's 25 years without incident. You see them in the Omnibus, uh, the Oculus, excuse me, downtown, which is a big transportation hub. You see them in Penn Station, in Grand Central. They just stand there. But because they're there, it takes weight off of the police and it sends the message that this area is observed.
▶ 1:30:34So, very often perpetrators will move
▶ 1:30:36Thank you. I'm out of time. I'll yield back, Mr. Chairman. [snorts]
▶ 1:30:39I thank the gentleman. Um,
▶ 1:30:41Mr. Chair, I have a couple of UC's before we move on. Um, first, I have a unanimous consent request. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a report written by Chandler Hall titled Cities and blue states experiencing larger declines in gun violence in 2023.
▶ 1:30:57Without objection. [snorts]
▶ 1:30:58Then I have another one. It is um by Chandler Hall again titled the highest rates of gun homicides are in rural
▶ 1:31:06Without objection. My next one is um titled written by Jeff Asher titled Trump doesn't have the data to back up his claims about Washington DC.
▶ 1:31:17Without objection.
▶ 1:31:18And my final one is um written by Kylie Murdoch and Jim Kesler titled the 21st century red state murder crisis.
▶ 1:31:27Without objection.
▶ 1:31:28Thank you so much.
▶ 1:31:29I now recognize the gentleman from
▶ 1:31:33Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm deeply disappointed about this hearing. It was buil as ex an exploration of the Trump Vance administration restoring law and order through the deployment of the military onto the streets of America. That's what we were here to talk about. And I haven't heard one Republican witness talk about that.
▶ 1:31:56Uh how the military, the National Guard has decreased crime on the streets of America. That's what this is supposed to be about. And uh so somebody has lied just like Trump lied. He lied about releasing the Epstein files. He lied about uh putting America first. He lied about lowering cost on day one. M
▶ 1:32:22Mr. Johnson, if I can just interrupt for a minute. No, all our witnesses are kind enough to be here. Uh they're not here as a Republican or Democrat. Their own views are to themselves on all. I will say for all of them. No one of none of them were intentionally lying and they swore an oath. So I appreciate your comments, but
▶ 1:32:41well no, I'm I'm my I'm not casting aspersions at the witnesses. I'm saying that this hearing was build as something that it has not turned out to be. We're supposed to be talking about how the deployment of the military onto the streets of America,
▶ 1:32:59this is your chance,
▶ 1:33:00has lessened crime.
▶ 1:33:01This is your chance. And I think it's a fair uh argument for me to make that we have misled the public just like Donald Trump has misled the public. And the the American Joe or the average Joe on the street is feeling like a sucker now because Trump is telling them that look, don't believe your lion eyes. Prices are down.
▶ 1:33:26But they know that uh price of groceries is up, the price of energy is up, the price of their health care is up. But yet Donald Trump is tell is telling them, "Believe what I say." They're getting tired of that. They looked at this drama with the Epstein files.
▶ 1:33:44They saw him go from doing everything he could to prevent the release into flipping at the last minute so as to save the little face that he still has because he knew he was going to lose that vote and he lost it. every single member of Congress except for one voted to release the Epstein files. And um and so the American people are are are really um confused at this point.
▶ 1:34:14They see MAGA Republicans in the House carrying President Trump's water. They're not happy about that. And fortunately, they have a shining light to look at. Her name is Marjorie Taylor Green.
▶ 1:34:29and um she has started to move away from the deception from the u lies and deceit and from the violence and because of that she's now being subjected to violence but let me let me uh ask you a question uh Mr.
▶ 1:34:51Magul, uh, since you, although you've been to law school, your training has been as a, uh, corporate communications guy with the International Trademark Association, but you're here to talk about how the military has made our streets more safe. I'll ask you this question. Law enforcement is a noble profession, isn't it?
▶ 1:35:17It is. And it has special education and certification. Isn't that correct?
▶ 1:35:26It does.
▶ 1:35:27Specialized skills that you get from learning to become a police officer like Miss McKinley, Miss McKenna's son. And I'm so um I'm I'm saddened by your loss and and I I my condolences to you, Miss McKenna. But uh law enforcement officers, isn't it true uh Mr. Mororrow are uh trained professionals?
▶ 1:35:55Yes, sir. [snorts]
▶ 1:35:57And um they take a different oath than does the military. Isn't that correct? Well, I'm not familiar with the
▶ 1:36:06because you never served in the military. But the military is trained to combat to to be in combat situations, whereas law enforcement officers are trained to enforce the law. So, isn't it a fact, Dr.
▶ 1:36:23Levine that if we have people who are trained in combat deployed to the streets of America that we're doing law enforcement a disservice because law enforcement depends on the respect and uh support of the people who they serve. Isn't it true that by deploying the military to the streets, we are hurting law enforcement?
▶ 1:36:51I think it can be demoralizing to local law enforcement to have the National Guard come in as if they aren't capable of doing their jobs. And you're right, they're trained specifically to be policing in a civilian
▶ 1:37:04come in and break things up and kill people. That's what the military does,
▶ 1:37:09I I I don't know about that.
▶ 1:37:11Well, that's not what police officers are trained to do.
▶ 1:37:14Correct. [snorts]
▶ 1:37:17With that, I'll yield back. I thank the gentlemen.
▶ 1:37:21And before I do though, let me uh offer for unanimous consent um uh a uh article entitled uh Portland police chief reveals troops tear gas protest by accident. Uh that's in the New Republic on October the 29th. Uh without objection.
▶ 1:37:44Without objection.
▶ 1:37:46Thank you. I yield back. Thank the gentleman. I now recognize Dr. Ander from the great state of Missouri.
▶ 1:37:54Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Unfortunately, I'm all too familiar with high crime cities. Um part of my district is on the outskirts of St. Louis, Missouri. Um a city that has consistently had one of the highest homicide rates in the country. In fact, I myself all the way back in 2005 was a victim of a violent crime. I was robbed at gunpoint. And unfortunately, the crime rate in in that region is has only gotten worse.
▶ 1:38:24Just last year, Missou's attorney general testified before this committee that the state had to remove a St. Louis prosecutor for for prioritizing politically motivated cases over violent offenders, including And uh the families hardest hit are neighborhood in these these neighborhoods. These inner city neighborhoods are the ones that pay the price. For years, failed leadership and neglected public safety have left entire communities trapped in fear. In St.
▶ 1:38:54Louis, Democrat policies have worsened a crisis that was undermining law enforcement and refusing to hold violent criminals accountable. The primary responsibility of government has always been to protect citizens by upholding law and order. When local officials abandon that duty, communities crumble. When prosecutors refuse to prosecute, crime grows. And when politics outweigh public cities, the results are the experience of St.
▶ 1:39:21Louis, Chicago, New York City, Charlotte, and others. Record violence, collapsing trust in institutions, and violent neighborhoods. These policies trap generations. They crush hope. And we have to break that pattern. Real compassion means telling young people that we believe that we can do better and that choices have consequences. Accountability is not punishment for its own sake. It is a path to safer streets, stronger families, and communities that can thrive.
▶ 1:39:51Uh Mr. Mango. Um, is there a way that Congress cano hold local officials uh accountable for refuse but for [clears throat] refusing to enforce the law and uh refusing federal assistance during periods of of sustained violent crime? I think the best thing that Congress can do uh in this way to hold these local officials accountable is to condition more of the funds that so many American cities depend on on best practices with respect to law enforcement and prosecution.
▶ 1:40:22Yeah, that m that makes sense. you know, in um not only not only in New York City do you lock up uh the toothpaste, not the perpetrators, but that in the um my staff tells me that in the Navy Yard area of Washington DC, they lock up the toothpaste at the at the CVS.
▶ 1:40:42Um um Miss McKini, uh just a quick question for you, and I am so sorry for for the loss of your your brave and heroic son. Um, you mentioned one of the one of the one of the murderers was out on uh bond. Do you know was he out on cash bond or was he just released uh released without essentially without any uh any financial incentive to return?
▶ 1:41:11Um sir, I'm I'm really not sure.
▶ 1:41:15That's No, that's all right. It's very common these days. One of these soft on crime policies that so many times um is uh is instituted in in some of these soft on crime uh cities and states has been uh the end of what's called cash bail, which is to say no bail at all. Just letting letting the letting the suspects uh go free. Um and um Oh, yeah.
▶ 1:41:44Um and Mr. Maro, you're with the Manhattan or Mango. You were with Manhattan Institute. Um, you know, shortly after I was elected to the Missouri Senate in August of 2014, of course, very famously the uh Michael Brown um death uh and the subsequent riots led uh to just I think some very phenomenon which um I think Heather McDonald
▶ 1:42:14at Manhattan Institute
▶ 1:42:16uh you know popularized the Ferguson effect. Um how how expla explain that and what what uh how can we how we could how can we turn things around? I think it's the opposite of what Mr. Marorrow describes broken windows policing uh enforcing fairs and so on.
▶ 1:42:32That's exactly right. Right. I mean, the Ferguson effect basically describes a phenomenon in which in the wake of a viral police incident that was controversial um so much public scrutiny and vitriol was uh lobbed at the institutions of law enforcement that it basically discouraged line officers from being proactive.
▶ 1:42:50And one of the best sort of academic demonstrations of this was done in a study by Roland Frier and Tanaya Devi out of Harvard where they looked at five American cities over a two-year period and looked at which ones were targeted by the federal government under either President Barack Obama, most of them under President Barack Obama for um civil rights enforcement actions in the wake of viral police uh use of force incidents.
▶ 1:43:12And what they found was a massive increase in felony offenses, homicide offenses specifically, and the mechanism that they believed most uh explained that uh increase in crime was a pullback on the part of line officers with respect to
▶ 1:43:26Every law enforcement fears being [clears throat] the next Darren Wilson. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:43:30And Mr. uh chair,
▶ 1:43:32I thank the gentleman. Yes.
▶ 1:43:33Sorry. Before you go on, I have two UC requests. One is from the Council on Criminal Justice, which states, "Examining trends over a longer period, St. Louis has had a far larger reduction in some violent and property crimes than other large American cities. The homicide rate in St. Louis was 40% lower in the first half of this year than it was in the first half of the first year of the pandemic." Um,
▶ 1:43:58without objection. And then the second one is I ask unanimous consent for an article that was written by Stephanie Wy titled how profit shapes the bail bond system published by the Brennan without
▶ 1:44:09Thank you.
▶ 1:44:11I now recognize the ranking me member Mr. Raskin from the great state of
▶ 1:44:16Thank you Mr. Chairman. Uh Miss McKini I want to extend to you uh my sympathy for your horrible loss. As a father who lost a son who is a year younger than your son. I cannot know your pain or your experience, but I know you live with it every day and uh my heart goes out to you. Um, Miss McKini and Mr. Mororrow, in fact, all of the witnesses have underscored the importance, as Mr. Morrow put it, I think, of voicing support for the police.
▶ 1:44:45And [snorts] um we uh voted to create a plaque. I mean, it wasn't a memorial fund for anyone. It wasn't money to go to the families, but at least it was a plaque to honor the work of the officers who defended us with their lives. And it reads, "On behalf of a grateful Congress, this plaque honors the extraordinary individuals who bravely pro protected and defended this symbol of democracy on January 6, 2021.
▶ 1:45:11Their heroism will never be forgotten." Uh, it was supposed to have been put up in the capital two years ago. It is still not been put up. And I thought I would start with an easy one, just a yes or no question. Um, would you agree that Speaker Johnson should put this plaque up uh as uh provided for in federal law? Dr. Lavine, I can start with you.
▶ 1:45:33Miss McKini.
▶ 1:45:36Mr. Mora.
▶ 1:45:37And Mr. Manga?
▶ 1:45:39Thank you very much. Um, so I want to go to um just quickly back to the question of the pardons because I it seems like our soft on crime president is so beholden to the MAGA militia that he's actually pardoned some of the people he already pardoned because they've gotten back in trouble as I was reading the long list of crimes they've already engaged in.
▶ 1:46:05He uh recently pardoned a woman who was separately convicted of threatening to shoot FBI agents [snorts] who were investigating a tip that she may have been at the capital and she threatened to shoot them. Uh and then he pardoned another insurrectionist from Kentucky who'd been arrested uh for illegally possessing six firearms and 4,800 rounds of ammunition. And just question to you, Dr. Lavine.
▶ 1:46:34Um, what message is sent by these repeated pardons for people uh who just participated in the insurrection surrounding the attempted uh overthrow of the 2020 presidential election?
▶ 1:46:48Uh, I think the best way to answer that is to quote Chairman Van Drew who said in his opening remarks, "When you take away consequences, you get chaos."
▶ 1:46:59Okay. And Mr. more let me come back to you because you invoked the broken windows thesis by James Q Wilson piqued my ears he was my professor when I was in school so I was always I wrote a paper about I was always fascinated by it and also we had a lot of broken windows here on January 6 2021 in addition to a lot of broken bones um and I wonder uh you know I read that long list I won't go through the whole thing again but of crimes that have been committed since the pardons took place by people were pardoned including terroristic threats home invasion burglary
▶ 1:47:29vandal capitalism, theft, not offenses uh directed at politicians. I'm afraid the chairman misunderstood my point. Uh he seemed to think that I was talking about uh these crimes being directed just at politicians. I'm talking about these being common crimes that were committed by people who were pardoned, people going out and just robbing other people's houses having nothing to do with politics.
▶ 1:47:52But my question for you on broken windows, are you surprised that people who were given the remarkable, extraordinary, almost unheard of privilege of a presidential pardon quickly going back out on the road and doing things like burglary, vandalism, theft, home invasion, terroristic threats? And what does that say in the context of broken windows?
▶ 1:48:18All I would say relative to January 6th is that if we're going to speak about the conditions in our cities, I'm hearing a great deal about January 6th. I'm hearing a tremendous amount about Donald Trump. But that's not what you feel on the street. And January 6th, nobody supports. Certainly I don't. Nobody wants to see people in Viking horns walking around inside our capital behaving that way. I can't reclaim my time. I'm not going to excuse anything.
▶ 1:48:48I'm sorry. You would invoke James Q Wilson about the broken windows hypothesis which is that he would apply. Mr. Chairman, will you direct him to my time? I've reclaimed my time. You might not understand the rules tomorrow. I actually Your thought was one of the better thoughts I've heard all day today. I appreciate it. It is the gentleman's time, the ranking member's time. Thank you.
▶ 1:49:09And please restore my time if you would. Let me come to you. Uh Dr. we will restore your time.
▶ 1:49:14The um the broken windows hypothesis is that if you allow people to get away with a crime at a certain level and you send them the message it's okay, then they will go out and commit other crimes and more serious crimes. And that's what I think we're we're seeing here. Do what do you think and I I know you haven't written a paper on this because I looked at your extensive scholarship, but but what do you think about the proposition?
▶ 1:49:37Well, that there are political crimes and we can forgive all of those and those people will not take it as a permission slip to go out and commit other crimes. Does that seem right?
▶ 1:49:47Uh, no sir, it doesn't. Although I'm so tempted to geek out on what Broken Windows really was, according to George Kelling and James Q Wilson, um, George Kelling was on faculty at the Rucker School of Criminal Justice for years and it wasn't about enforcement. And it was really about how visible signs of disarray and disorder can send a signal that places are vulnerable for crime and that and fixing those broken windows. It wasn't about
▶ 1:50:14which is why I was pointing out we have millions of dollars of broken windows here in addition to all of the bloodshed and the the people
▶ 1:50:21time has expired.
▶ 1:50:22I I yield back.
▶ 1:50:24I thank the gentleman.
▶ 1:50:26I will yield myself five minutes. Um just a few quick questions and a couple thoughts just and I I agree with you by the way Mr. M. right now we can have another hearing on obstine. We can have another hearing on January 6. Really trying to talk the people on about the people on the street and what they're going through when they live in many of these areas throughout the country. That's what we're supposed to be here for. With that, I'm sorry to I have to just digress a tiny second. the Epstein files.
▶ 1:50:53Just so we all know, Epstein was indicted under President Trump's administration. He was arrested during Trump's administration. Maxwell was indicted during the Trump administration. Was arrested during the Trump administration. So, let's set the facts straight. Mr. Marorrow, I have a question for you and if you can answer briefly. You know, Democratic Party's changed. And I again, I don't want to get political here, but you're right.
▶ 1:51:18I mean, if I understood what you were saying, there used to be a bipartisan agreement probably back around the 90s. I don't know the exact years. President Clinton, other noted Democrats that really cared that as Democrats, they might have differed in vision with Republicans on some issues, fiscal and otherwise, but keeping our streets safe for the men and women who live in the country, especially in urban areas. Wasn't that a bipartisan effort? Wasn't that a different kind of Democrat than what we're seeing now?
▶ 1:51:48The tremendous success in New York City relative to driving down crime that began in the 90s began post Giuliani. Everybody thought it was going to go away under Democrat mayor, a police commissioner serving under a Democratic mayor. In fact, two Raymond Kelly and uh William Bratton.
▶ 1:52:09And and Mr. Mororrow, thank you for that. And my point is this is a whole new deal now going on with Democrats. This is a different world. This isn't those Democrats back then. This is Mandami is not those is not Bill Clinton is not that type of a Democrat at all. Mandami in fact wants to take I'm sure you heard about it. I'm sure you are upset about it. All misdemeanors. There would be no more misdemeanors. I mean it's unbelievable. U the second issue I wanted to go talk about is real quickly.
▶ 1:52:38I this sounds like stupid question but why are we locking up our toothpaste our mouthwash or uh just common things cough medicine I mean what's going on
▶ 1:52:48this is a salient question 327 career perpetrators identifi identified by the New York Times now account for a full one-third of all the shoplifting in New York City that's driving these numbers the point that I tried to make in my opening statement was that we're not talking about locking up vast numbers of people now to change the dynamic on the street.
▶ 1:53:12What we learned from broken windows and where we are right now is if there was some surgical enforce enforcement on people who are identified and we just took those steps, conditions would be greatly improved. These are the kinds of real things that I was hoping we could talk about today. The stuff that affects people because they're paying more for their goods and services because of it that makes them feel nervous. They don't like it. It shouldn't be that way. Um, next question.
▶ 1:53:39Isn't part of, you know, this, you can cook the books in statistics. We keep hearing about the statistics. Go out in the street. I know Newark well, doctor. Uh, I know it well. I, you know, spent plenty of time there going to continuing education courses at Rucker University. And I'm going to say that if you went to R to Newark in North Jersey or Irvington or many of the other cities up there and if you go into the cities in my area, Pleasantville, Atlantic City, there's a lot of concern from safety, particularly people of color because they live there and they have that concern.
▶ 1:54:10But with that saying, isn't part of the statistics there's low morale, there's less staffing, there's less prosecution, there's less arrest, you just let it go by. So, of course, with less prosecution and less arrest, you're going to have lower numbers. Is there any accuracy to what I say?
▶ 1:54:27Exactly. So, let's let's do the real deal. Let's talk about what's really happening. We made it so damn hard for a cop to be a cop and just so disgusted and demoralized with it, they just don't bother unless it's the most serious of situations. I've had cops in DC last year tell me that when I actually witness something. Let me ask this, Miss McKini, again. Sorry to ask questions to you because I know you've gone through a lot. Thank you for being here.
▶ 1:54:54I know the condolences and the sorrow means a lot, but would it maybe mean more to you if we enacted policies so that what happened to your son never happened to somebody else again?
▶ 1:55:07That that means more than the condolences, doesn't it?
▶ 1:55:10It it would, especially in Memphis. That's why I with [snorts] the National Guard there. I know some people are against having the National Guard in in in big cities or anywhere on um US territory. Um I feel that the National Guard in Memphis um just their presence alone has made a difference. Um they don't do police.
▶ 1:55:32And may I ask a question related to real quick for all of you and then I'm done. Um, do you believe that the National Guard, the men and women in the guard are capable of being on those city streets and doing good and not doing harm and that they're not just going to be warriors that are going out shooting people and beating them up? Mr. Manuel, yes or no answer?
▶ 1:55:51Yes, I do. Yes,
▶ 1:55:52Mr. Mor.
▶ 1:55:56Okay. So, that puts that away. I thank you. I thank all of you. Um, with that,
▶ 1:56:01I have UC's.
▶ 1:56:03Oh, yeah. I bet you you do. [laughter] I mean, you asked different questions. I got answers. Um, my first UC, I asked unanimous consent to enter into the record an article titled DOJ cancels 500 million in public safety grants, cuts officer safety and crime prevention programs, punish I'm sorry, published by police one on August 18th, 2020.
▶ 1:56:22Without objection,
▶ 1:56:24I also have one where uh it is entitled public safety groups face an uncertain future months after federal grant cuts. published by the National Public Radio.
▶ 1:56:36Without objection.
▶ 1:56:38I also have one that says Justice Department slashes essential services for crime victims. Published by the Brennan Center.
▶ 1:56:44Without objection.
▶ 1:56:46I have one that says uh let's see. This is by the Guardian. It's published March 27th, 2025. Trump cut 69 global programs tackling child labor and human
▶ 1:56:56Without objection.
▶ 1:56:58I have another one. This is this is written by uh Michael Waldman titled Trump defunds effective crimerevention policies published by the Brennan Center July 5.
▶ 1:57:09I have another one that says it's by Nicole I can't pronounce Nicole's last name. Uh crimerevention efforts face setbacks after federal cuts.
▶ 1:57:19Without objection. I have another one that says um federal cuts to behavioral health will harm public safety from September 23rd of 2021.
▶ 1:57:31Without objection.
▶ 1:57:32And my final one on this issue so we can put this to rest. Uh I ask unanimous consent. This is written by Nick Wilson titled the Trump administration's budget will undermine ATF's efforts to prevent violent crime. H. Uh, this was published by the Center for American Progress on July 9th, 2025.
▶ 1:57:52Without that objection, I would remind everyone that those are in sincerity, mostly left-wing publications, and I could come and put a lot of UC's in for publications that would disagree with that totally. So, my point being, let me just finish my point. It's not going to put anything to rest and you know that.
▶ 1:58:08Well, but but Mr. Chairman, I I will ask if you do have any UC's to say the opposite about these federal cuts, as if they didn't happen, please enter them into the record so that we can have it in the congressional record that these cuts were not made. I I just would like it to be I want us to have an accurate record. M
▶ 1:58:22Mr. Chairman,
▶ 1:58:23not necessarily the cuts, but the result of the cuts are two different things. Where you're spending money and if you're spending money that's effective.
▶ 1:58:30Um Mr. German, if I could, I just have four, not seven. I think I just counted.
▶ 1:58:34Without objection.
▶ 1:58:35Uh so this is uh uh in Reuters. Um, federal drug prosecutions fall to lowest level in decades as Trump shifts focus to deportations. Um, this one is the Washington Post, November 10, 2025. Uh, no longer liberal publication, by the way. Um, Justice Department struggles as thousands exit and few replaced. Um, this one is without objection,
▶ 1:59:00ProPublica. How Trump has exploited pardons and clemency to reward political allies and supporters. Uh, and finally, this one from the KO Institute. ICE has diverted over 25,000 officers without their jobs at the FBI. Okay,
▶ 1:59:14you're next.
▶ 1:59:15Okay. I now recognize the ranking member. I'm sorry. I don't Yes. The ranking member of this committee. I do. Uh, Miss Crockett.
▶ 1:59:23Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Um, if we've learned anything this year is that congressional Republicans are more interested in serving Donald Trump than they are in serving their constituents. Over the past 10 months, they have given away permanent tax cuts to the wealthiest people on Earth. demolish half of the White House, pardon violent insurrectionist, significantly driven up cost of living across the country, and then given themselves a taxpayer funded 8-week vacation, all so that they could delay as long as possible Congress voting to release the Epstein files.
▶ 1:59:51And now they're trying to gaslight you into believing that you should trust them on crime policy. They want you to believe that living in a police state is a good or normal thing. They want you to be okay with having armed soldiers and federal agents monitor you as you shop for groceries or take your children to school. They want you to think that you won't be affected. But we've already seen Americans detained, arrested, injured, and some nearly killed because of this administration's reckless approach to handling crime.
▶ 2:00:19And they're doing all of this without acknowledging the fact that Republican le states are experiencing a murder and crime and violent crime crisis and have [snorts] so and they have for the last two decades. The Republican murder state rates were 33% higher than Democratic state murder rates in both 21 and 2022. In fact, over the past 22 years, the Republican state murder rates were nearly a quarter higher compared to states that are led by Democrats.
▶ 2:00:49Even when you remove Democratic cities and counties from the Republican states data, their murder rate is still nearly a quarter higher than states run by Democrats. Miss Lavine, how long have you studied crime?
▶ 2:01:03You're going to have me show my age. Is that nice?
▶ 2:01:06It doesn't show on your face, honey. That's all that matters.
▶ 2:01:09Let's just say about three decades. Okay, very good. So, would you agree that factors like poverty, lacks gun laws, and a lack of public services can lead to higher crime rates?
▶ 2:01:21Yes, I agree with that.
▶ 2:01:23According to the Census Bureau, states with the highest poverty rates are disproportionately Republican governed and often have laxer gun laws and less public services. Wouldn't you agree that these factors are likely why Republicanled states have higher murder rates than Democratic states?
▶ 2:01:39I would. In fact, I would like to lift up some research uh from one of our faculty members, Dr. Robert Apel. He recently conducted a study looking at the relationship between levels and quality of public assistance and crime and found that there is the relationship in the expected direction that is lower public assistance, more crime, more
▶ 2:02:03Thank you so much for that. So, not only are you likely to be a victim of violent crime in a Republican le state, you're now less likely to receive victim assistance because of Republican cutting resources for food, shelter, and transportation. This is what Donald Trump's America looks like. Never let a wannabe tyrant convince you that the only way for you to be safe is to live under a police state where he controls your day-to-day activities by means of military or armed federal agents.
▶ 2:02:33That's what we call a dictatorship. And I just want to be clear because I appreciate what you just brought up because I did serve as a public defender and a courtappointed attorney. So as we sat here, I remembered that one of uh the witness's opening statements, they were they mentioned the word why. And as Michael Jackson used to sing, why why we have not dealt with the why. We have not dealt with why crime happens. And if you understand the why, then maybe you can come to a conclusion.
▶ 2:02:59But as someone who has sat there with people that were too poor to be able to afford their own attorneys, I can tell you some wise. But what I am going to do is talk to you about why the idea that incarceration is the only thing that can fix anything. And the fact that we have two witnesses that are telling us that we need to go back to the 94 crime bill when we learned that all that did was drive up incarceration. It didn't drive down addiction because addiction is actually an illness. But that's a whole other issue.
▶ 2:03:24And you can't incarcerate your way out of an illness just like you can't incarcerate somebody that has cancer and believe that somehow they now will be cured. But I digress. What I will tell you is that we also know that the US has the highest incarceration rate of any independent democracy on Earth. Worse, every single state incarcerates more people per capita than most nations. In the global context, even progressive US states like New York and Massachusetts appear to be extreme just like Louisiana and Mississippi.
▶ 2:03:54In addition to that, um the United States has the highest incarceration rate, the highest average firearms per 100 people, highest homicides per 100,000 people, and the lowest safety and securing rate of 12 countries in comparison. I had a 17-year-old that was charged with stealing food out of the concession stand at his high school. Unfortunately, in the state of Texas, at the age of 17, you are considered an adult. So, what did they do? They decided to charge him with burglary of habitation. He had an attorney that was not me when he went through this. They put him on felony probation.
▶ 2:04:24Ultimately, they revoked his probation because he was too poor to show up um to his uh actual probation officer as his mom was the one who was required to take off work so that she could take him in. I'mma wrap up, but this is really important for people to understand. At the end of the day, they ended up giving my kid the maximum punishment for less than $20 worth of candy that he stole out of the concession stand. Ultimately, I told them that it was a mistake to send him to prison. When he went to prison, he learned how to be a criminal. That's where he learned how to cook meth.
▶ 2:04:53The next time that I saw him, it was because he had committed a real crime. Ultimately, all that did was harm our communities. And I will be clear, this was a poor young man, but he was not black. So, and this was in rural Texas. So, I want to be smart about what we do with crime and I want to make sure that we are putting our money in smart places. Thank you so much for being
▶ 2:05:15I thank the gentleoman. With that, I recognize the former attorney general and from the great state of Kansas, Robert Under. I'm sorry it's mistaken. I'm sorry. Derek Schmidt. I got to get my people straight here.
▶ 2:05:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You're
▶ 2:05:30I made you an attorney. I made a doctor an attorney general. I guess that makes you a doctor. I don't know.
▶ 2:05:34Oh, yeah. Just don't put me in Missouri. We'll be okay. Okay. It's all good.
▶ 2:05:37That's a deal.
▶ 2:05:39Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank our witnesses for their time. It's been nearly two hours. I spent 12 years as the what our law calls the chief law enforcement official of my state and got to work with a lot of uh prosecutions directly. We ran our victim support programs for the state. So, we worked with a lot of crime victims. I've been sitting here over the course of this hearing and I've made a list of a few terms that in 12 years interacting with literally hundreds of crime victims and their families.
▶ 2:06:07In fact, this time of the year we always hosted around the holidays a series of um holiday remembrance receptions for crime victims families because we understand that the unique experience uh of going through the loss of a loved one or being victimized yourself. Sometimes just being together with others at the holidays who have had a similar experience can be powerful. So hundreds, this is a list of terms I never heard once from any of them. I never heard the term Trump.
▶ 2:06:35I never heard the term Biden and I served during the Biden years. I never heard the term Obama and I served during the Obama years. I never heard the phrase unanimous consent. I never had one of them quote crime statistics or theory to me. Uh I never heard one of them say Republican. I never heard one of them say Democrat. I heard a lot of them cry. I heard a lot of them tell me the stories about their loved one who was lost or about what happened to them.
▶ 2:07:06Some were police officers. Ma'am, uh we lost, I believe it was 13 on my watch. It might have been 14. I'd have to go back and count name by name, but we've lost four police officers. uh two homicide on duty this year in Kansas. I had four others shot. By the grace of God, none are dead just this last week in my district. So, this is real and and and I think it's sad that this conversation has gone off in many different directions. And I want to thank our witnesses for wanting to talk about what we can do about all of this.
▶ 2:07:36For me, the measure is how do we have fewer canons killed, raped, or robbed? That's what this ought to be about. So, with that, I want to turn to the testimony from Mr. Mangle. You you you recommend a crime bill, and you give us four elements that you think ought to be in there, some of which, by the way, sound remarkably like I heard Bill Clinton's voice in my head when you said 100,000 more cops on the street, hire and retain more police officers. You added a fifth one that wasn't in your written testimony.
▶ 2:08:03You said, "Condition grants on best practices." Uh, I want to ask our other witnesses, just start with Mr. Marorrow and go down the line. Do you think it's a good idea that we ought to look at some type of broad or comprehensive crime bill in this Congress? And if so, what else or what would you put in it?
▶ 2:08:18I I do think it is a good idea. Um it worked once and frankly, if we don't learn from history, as the saying goes, we're doomed to repeat it. And it may surprise the committee to hear me say that I agree with Miss Crockett, low-level offenses, if you incarcerate people, actually among the per among perpetrators, they call prison school. And that goes back to the mafia. You go they go to prison. They're all uh in in jail together. They have nothing but time. And that's how they learn to do other crimes and develop criminal schemes.
▶ 2:08:49So the point I was trying to make in my opening remarks and I think it's where we should be looking at our anything like a crime bill is that if it's surgical, datadriven, and intelligent, if you have somebody who has committed, as I was saying earlier, the vast the 327 perpetrators of the shoplifting I was talking about, they've committed over 9,000 at the last check, shopliftings. That's not sending somebody to school. That's getting somebody off the street that's going to continue to do it. That's why we lock up the toothpaste.
▶ 2:09:19So I would argue and as I said the sweet spot for me was in the 2014 2015 era there where under a Democratic mayor and Democratic administration in New York we drove down not only uh crime but incarceration rates that can be done if it's done intelligently. And my hope had been that we could speak about that in a bipartisan way because both sides have in my opinion good points to make. You don't want to lock yourself lock everybody. You don't want to incarcerate uh incarcerate your way out of these things.
▶ 2:09:48If it's done intelligently, surgically, you can make progress. We've done that before. So, I don't think to answer your question, we need to reinvent reinvent the wheel. We should just look at what worked in the past.
▶ 2:09:58Thank you. Mr. Mar, do you have any thoughts on if there's anything in particular we ought to do that could be Um, as far as um, policing goes, I think that um, just uh, the local leaders and and also government leaders should should definitely have a hard stance on crime and come forward and just denounce and and stop being soft.
▶ 2:10:28Just, you know, this repeat offender stuff, telling the criminals that it's okay with what they can do and and releasing them. um give them a three strikes and you're out. We we used to have that in Memphis years ago and it did deter crime. Um it showed um the younger people um that they were not allowed to go back out and do it again, that there would be consequences for what they were going to do.
▶ 2:10:56Um you know, a lot of the problems that we have in Memphis is is through leadership. Um they are very neglectful in their duties. They don't um [snorts] prioritize education for the children. The a lot of the children in Memphis don't know how to read. They don't know how to do basic math. And that's an issue. Um parent accountability is an issue that they parents just let their kids run wild. You know, they don't know where their kids are at.
▶ 2:11:26I don't know what you can do about that. I don't agree with um having um you know of parents be held accountable for their children's decisions in some instances because parents can only do so much. The children do what they do because that was their choice. Thank you.
▶ 2:11:44The lady's time the lady's time is
▶ 2:11:46Thank you.
▶ 2:11:47Thank you.
▶ 2:11:49Thank you. Thank the gentlemen. That concludes today's hearing. We thank our witnesses for appearing before this subcommittee. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional writing in question form for the witnesses or additional materials for the record. Without objection, this hearing is adjourned.