▶ 0:20:55take over.
▶ 0:20:58That worked. The subcommittee on economic development and public buildings and emergency management will come to order. Chair asked unanimous consent that the chair be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing without objection so ordered.
▶ 0:21:13Chair also asked unanimous consent that members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions without objection so As a reminder, if members wish to insert a document into the record, please also email it to documents timail.house.gov. Chair now recognizes himself for the purposes of an opening statement for five minutes.
▶ 0:21:39I want to thank our witnesses for being here today as we examine the federal real estate portfolio. Earlier this year, the subcommittee held a hearing to discuss how we could make federal real estate work for the American taxpayer. Legislation that Congress has enacted like the use it act and the federal asset sale and transfer act or the fasta are intended to operate in lock step to improve abysmal space utilization rates.
▶ 0:22:05Hold agencies accountable for the amount of space they use and rightsize the federal footprint. As the public buildings reform board continues to deliberate its next round of recommendations, I look forward to hearing about the progress that's been made since our our last hearing and ensuring that reforms we passed last year are helping with an anticipated $5.4 billion in savings from its second round recommendations.
▶ 0:22:33This next round serves as an opportunity to realize even more savings for the taxpayer. I'm also pleased that the GSA is taking aggressive action to reduce costs, including taking steps to move HUD to allow for the sale of the Weaver building. Shaving off excess, however, will not unilaterally rectify the numerous challenges we face in federal property.
▶ 0:22:58As the maintenance of the buildings is becoming increasingly cost costly to upkeep, the deferred maintenance liability grew from a mere billions of dollars u in fiscal year 2017 to a whopping 6 billion by f fiscal year 2022. And that's just what the GSA reported in fiscal year 2022. Civilian agencies reported a collective deferred maintenance liability of 8080 billion.
▶ 0:23:26We need to get a handle on these costs and the administration is moving to reduce taxpayer liability and costs. But there are critical authorities and tools we provided to the GSA and reform signed into a law in a bipartisan basis in January of this year to ensure those tools can effectively be used. And it's important that the GSA ensures the key deadlines are met.
▶ 0:23:51For example, in January of 26, all federal agencies should be reporting to the GSA, the OM, and Congress the data on their space occupancy methodology used and utilization rates and the cost associated with any excess space. Also, by next month, all federal office space is required to have an actual building utilization rate of at least 60%.
▶ 0:24:16And those buildings that don't have that utilization rate have then one year to correct or the agencies are moved out and the space is either sold or relinquished. Finally, next January, the OM and the GSA are to submit a plan to consolidate federal agency headquarters in the National Capital Area to meet the minimum 60% building occupancy rate.
▶ 0:24:40The GSA was required to amend its occupancy agreements with its tenant agencies to ensure those agencies agree to provide the data that GSA needs. The GSA's proposed capital investment projects required to prioritize buildings that meet or exceed the 60% utilization threshold. There are additional requirements on the information provided to the committee and prospectuses and the GSA is now required to report on key milestones on all prospectus level projects.
▶ 0:25:10It is critical for the GSA to meet these deadlines and requirements not only to save taxpayer dollars but to ensure accountability and transparency over the long term. Chair looks forward to hearing from the GSA on where we are in right sizing the portfolio portfolio and implementing these reforms.
▶ 0:25:29While the state and federal real estate while the state of federal real estate continues to face an uphill battle, the policies of this Congress and this administration have and will continue to accelerate this important corrective work. With that, I look forward to hearing from our witnesses, but at this time recognize the ranking member rec uh member Stanton for five minutes for his opening statement.
▶ 0:25:54Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the witnesses for being here today for this important hearing. This hearing is about two things. Cutting costs and adding value. That is the standard that the public expects from us and it should be the standard that we expect from ourselves. Federal property is expensive. It can be complicated and central to how government serves people. When we get these decisions right, taxpayers save money and the agencies work better.
▶ 0:26:24When we get them wrong, the public pays twice. once in tax dollars and again in the quality of service that they receive. When I was mayor of Phoenix, real efficiency never came for from swinging an axe. It came from discipline, planning, knowing exactly how each decision affected the people we the people we were there to serve. Government is not a corporation reworking a balance sheet.
▶ 0:26:53It is a network of public responsibilities. Cuts that ignore that reality don't create efficiency. They undermine it. And we don't have to theorize about that. We just lived through it. Doge, the billionaire tech bro failure known as the Department of Government Efficiency, was a textbook example of what happens when you chase cuts without understanding value.
▶ 0:27:20It drove federal property decisions at a speed and scale that outran planning, operational needs, and basic due diligence. Agencies were told to vacate buildings before replacement space was ready. These decisions were driven by targets and assumptions, not by reliable, validated information about how federal space was being used or which functions depended on it. Mr.
▶ 0:27:46Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the July 2025 minority staff report from the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. Without objection, so
▶ 0:27:58That investigation found that Doge wasted at least $21.7 billion in just 6 months. It burned 14.8 billion, paying roughly 200,000 employees not to work. Then it pushed more than 100,000 additional workers into administrative limbo, costing taxpayers another 6.1 billion.
▶ 0:28:24It froze essential projects from energy grid upgrades to medical research, wasting hundreds of millions more, offering nothing in return. Doge is a clear example of what happens when you chase cost and ignoring value. I raise it here because as ranking member, I look forward to working with the chair to advance an approach that recognizes efficiency as both cutting costs and adding value. And I thank the chair for making those the focus of today's hearing.
▶ 0:28:55As we look ahead, Doge also taught us another important lesson. It exposed a deeper structural problem that complicates this committee's work now and in the months to come. We are responsible for overseeing all federal property, but GSA does not give us a clear portfoliowwide view of how federal buildings are being used. We get leased prospectuses. We get scattered updates. We do not get a regular comprehensive report on the public building service portfolio.
▶ 0:29:26For a system this large, this expensive, and this central to the functioning of government, that blind spot is unacceptable. Do showed how dangerous it is to make major space decisions in that kind of fog. That is why I introduced the bipartisan legislation co-sponsored by Chairman Perry requiring the GSA administrator to submit an annual report to Congress on the state of federal real estate portfolio. That is basic governance.
▶ 0:29:53If we want real savings, real accountability, real value, we need a com we need complete information about buildings where federal work is done. And we need to ensure that wherever we go next, we are guided by data and the full scope of information. Federal property is a public asset. It should strengthen the work inside it and the people who rely on those services.
▶ 0:30:15Today's hearing is an opportunity to learn from DOA's failures, insist on better data, and set clear expectation that cutting costs and adding value are equally important to the future of federal property. I look forward to the testimony today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [clears throat]
▶ 0:30:32Gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee, Representative Larson. Five minutes.
▶ 0:30:39Thank you, Subcommittee Chair Perry and Ranking Member Stanton, for convening today's hearing on federal real estate. So, a lot's happened at the GSA since the beginning of this year. At the beginning of the year, GSA's public buildings service had 5,655 full-time employees. Now, that number is That total would be even lower, but GSA reversed course on 392 departures after realizing its inability to get all of its work done.
▶ 0:31:07At the beginning of the year, the public building service or PBS had 11 distinct geographic regions. But after a reorganization, PBS is now structured, quote, based on an integrated functional operations which are centrally managed with a portfolio structure that continues to support a geographic presence nationwide. What does that mean? I don't know.
▶ 0:31:28At the beginning of the year, PBS used its purchasing power to encourage commercial landlords and federal agency tenants to adopt environmentally sustainable practices to reduce the impact of climate change, promote energy efficiency, and save money. But this administration rescended federal building sustainability requirements and terminated PBS's efforts to lease space for federal tenants in green buildings. At the beginning of the year, the White House had an east wing and now it does not.
▶ 0:31:55At the beginning of the year, there were no plans to build a privately funded ballroom on the White House grounds, but that's exactly what is happening without the collaboration of Congress, without the collaboration of the National Capital Planning Commission or the Commission on Fine Arts. The president started the project without first notifying the public or consulting experts. We still don't know how much it will cost, what it will look like, who is paying for construction, and who will be responsible for ongoing maintenance and repairs.
▶ 0:32:21Over the course of the year, agencies were directed to identify underutilized and unneeded owned and leased space for disposal. And Doge and OMB utilized this information to terminate 260 leases. That's an achievement, but there was also significant chaos and mixed messaging surrounding the disposal of buildings and the termination of leases.
▶ 0:32:40In March, GSA published a list of 440 properties it intended to dispose of, but the list disappeared from its website within hours after observers noted that the list included the headquarters of more than a dozen dozen agencies, including its own. GSA then issued a revised list with only 320 entries, but that list also disappeared from GSA's website the next day.
▶ 0:33:02Earlier this week as well, Bloomberg Law reported the White House is independently soliciting bids to recommend the demolition of four buildings, federal buildings in Washington DC without the impet input of the GSA. According to a former director of GSA's Office of Planning and Design, GSA has quote sole authority over this process yet has not followed the procedures required under historic preservation and environmental laws for these buildings to be destroyed.
▶ 0:33:27Now, I will say I'm very pleased the GSA is making progress on three Washington state land ports of entry. They all happen to be in my district. Um, but it's taken a while to get to where we are even today. During a recent meeting of the Walking Council of Governments, uh, GSA staff shared plans to combine the design build uh, contracts for the Kenneth G. Ward land port of entry in Lynden and the Sumass landport of entry in Sumass. The current expectation is that Lynden will start its construction modernization first.
▶ 0:33:55Then Sumass will follow approximately midway through construction. This provides port operators the ability to vert to divert at least some of the Sumass commercial traffic to the modernized Lynden port while the Sumass port is modernized. Combining two of these projects will enable them to complete both ports in three years instead of four and hopefully for less money. Something that we can all support.
▶ 0:34:18In conclusion, the administration said from the outset that it plans to shrink the government's real estate holdings by offloading unnecessary le leases and federal buildings. And that is a lotable goal. As I've uh started uh talking yesterday with Chair Perry, um having a smaller and fuller federal footprint should be our goal, but the president has not been forthcoming about the details and decision-m and that is cause for concern.
▶ 0:34:45So I thank our witnesses for appearing before us today and hopefully we can get some answers. I look forward to their testimony that I yield back.
▶ 0:34:53Chair, thanks the ranking member of the full committee and we will now let me see turn to question your correction uh the uh statements from our witnesses. I want to thank our witnesses for taking the time to be here today and uh for coming in. I'd like to take a moment to explain our lighting system for anybody that's new here. So you know what you're doing there. There are three lights in front of you. Green means go. Uh yellow means you're kind of running out of time. About a minute left.
▶ 0:35:22And red means uh to please conclude your remarks if you haven't done so already. And that means you too, Mr. Capawan. I know you know better, right? Can't get away with I didn't know. Uh chair now ask unanimous consent that the witnesses full statements be included in the record and without objection. So ordered. Chair, I also ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing without objection. So ordered.
▶ 0:35:53Chair, I also ask unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and for information submitted by members or the witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing without objection. So ordered. As your written testimonies have been made part of the record, the subcommittee now asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes. And with that, Mr. Heler, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
▶ 0:36:22Good morning, Chairman Perry, Ranking Member Stanton, and members of the subcommittee. My name is Andrew Heler and I am the acting commissioner of the public building service at the US General Services Administration where I have proudly served as a career civil servant for almost 22 years. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the future of federal real property management. I appreciate the committee's invitation to appear before you today.
▶ 0:36:49I would also like to thank this subcommittee for its ongoing engagement in public buildings management and advocating for full access to the federal buildings fund. Simply put, the government no longer needs nor can it afford to maintain the amount of real estate it currently owns. With your support and with the necessary resources, GSA is well positioned to rightsize the portfolio.
▶ 0:37:13To support this shared goal, GSA is focused on disposing of underutilized buildings with significant liabilities and investing in buildings that are core to the government's needs. Where costeffective, we will use leasing to meet general office space requirements. I'm proud to report that GSA has made great strides. Last year, we executed 90 building dispositions, reducing the government's footprint by more than 3 million square feet.
▶ 0:37:41Those building sales generated $182 million in proceeds, avoided $415 million in repairs and operating costs. GSA also identified 45 additional assets for disposition. With your continued support, those dispositions will further reduce the inventory by 15 million square feet and avoid an additional $3 billion in future repairs and operating costs.
▶ 0:38:07GSA also continues to focus on the efficient management of its lease portfolio, generating $730 million in cost avoidance through lease negotiations and inventory reductions. However, GSA continues to face challenges. As the GSA admin administrator nominee Ed Forest said at his confirmation hearing, American taxpayers shoulder billions of dollars in delinquent maintenance costs under the federal government's current real estate portfolio.
▶ 0:38:36These costs are likely underestimated and will only grow if left unressed. GSA requires resources to optimize its aging inventory. Unfortunately, the federal buildings fund has been underfunded by $15 billion since 2011. It is no coincidence that during this time, delinquent maintenance has also risen exponentially to approximately $26 billion, which is not sustainable.
▶ 0:39:03In fiscal year 26, we are requesting 10.5 billion in budget authority, a request that's equal to our anticipated levels of revenue collections. Without access to this funding, we are unable to maintain facilities in a manner that our customer agencies expect and we are unable to optimize the portfolio in a way that the taxpayers deserve. This request includes $365 million for an optimization program.
▶ 0:39:31This program will help us dispose of underperforming buildings, improve the quality of core assets, and implement lease strategies to save taxpayer money. With this committee's full authorization of the program and with full funding, GSA has projects ready to execute that will save the taxpayer hundreds of millions of dollars.
▶ 0:39:51In the absence of full funding, GSA continues to work with Congress, occupant agencies, and the public buildings reform board to dispose of unneeded properties in an expedited manner. Through our partnership with the board, GSA recently sold the former US Geological Survey campus in Menllo Park, California.
▶ 0:40:12This sale generated $137 million in proceeds, reduced the size of the portfolio by almost half a million square feet, and saved taxpayers more than $110 million in estimated repairs and operating costs. The president's budget request also supports the asset proceeds and space management fund.
▶ 0:40:32Access to this funding is critical since it is intended to cover the upfront costs associated with footprint One recent example of a project using this funding is the William O. Leinsky federal building in Chicago. By investing $20 million upfront to relocate the tenant, the taxpayers will realize over $161 million in savings by eliminating delinquent maintenance liabilities and reducing space.
▶ 0:41:00This is just one example of sensible solutions that GSA can implement if funding is made available to cover upfront costs. Your support is vital to right sizing the federal footprint. And I humbly request the committee's support for GSA's budget. I look forward to partnering with the distinguished members of this committee to address the key priorities that drive efficiency and effectiveness in federal real estate. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today and I look forward to answering any questions you may have.
▶ 0:41:30Chair, thanks the gentleman and the chair now recognizes Miss Krauss and you are recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:41:37Thank you, Chairman Perry, Ranking Member Stanton, Ranking Member Larson, and members of the subcommittee. I'm pleased to be here today to discuss the future of federal property. There is a unique opportunity right now to transfer the federal government's footprint. For decades, GAO has reported that the federal government has too much space, that its buildings are often in poor condition, and that agencies don't have good data to make real property decisions.
▶ 0:42:04There have been efforts in the past to rightsize the federal footprint, but these underlying issues have persisted. Agencies have often been too slow to shed unneeded space, and when they have, it has been challenging to do so. The pandemic shined a spotlight on these problems. In response, Congress and the executive branch have taken actions that have generated significant momentum for transforming federal real property management.
▶ 0:42:29To sustain this momentum and ensure it leads to an effect an effective result, it is essential that GSA and other stakeholders continue to focus on action taken in a deliberate and wellplanned manner. Doing so could generate substantial savings for the American taxpayer while mitigating the risk of costly mistakes and mission impacts. GSA's public building services or PBS will be key to how well this transformation plays out over the next several years.
▶ 0:42:56The office plays a critical role in not only serving tenant agencies but also helping to improve the efficiency of the federal government's vast real property holdings. Given that, it is imperative that PBS's reorganization be a success. We are currently evaluating PBS's reorganization efforts and how well they line up with leading reform practices. Those practices provide a path for any agency undergoing a major reorganization to do so in the most effective way possible.
▶ 0:43:27These practices will be particularly important for PBS given the significant staff and leadership turnover it has had this year. We plan to issue the results of our evaluation with recommendations in early 2026. In conclusion, right sizing the federal government's real property holdings is long overdue. It's essential that Congress and the executive branch sustain the momentum to transform federal property management with a focus on wellplanned deliberate action.
▶ 0:43:55Doing so will best position the federal government to cut costs while adding value. This will help ensure agencies have the right space to successfully carry out their missions while achieving the most efficient and effective result for the American taxpayer. Chairman Perry, that concludes my opening statement. I'm happy to answer any questions. Chair, thanks our witness. Moving on to Congressman Capuano. You served with on this committee with distinction. You have many friends here and you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.
▶ 0:44:25Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning. Uh my name is Mike Capuano, board member of the public buildings reform board and a member of this committee for 18 years. I want to begin by thanking Chairman Perry and Ranking Member Stanton for inviting the board. And before I get into my real testimony, I want to also offer my completely insincere condolences for the Eagles loss this past weekend. It was terrible, but I could fake that I care, but I I can't do that.
▶ 0:44:52Um, faster was enacted in December of 2016 as a bipartisan biccameal effort that created the PBRB. It was most recently amended last year by this committee through the water resources development act. and our current board members. At Talmage Hawker, who's the acting chair, Nick Ray Hall, who's a former ranking member of this committee, uh Dave Winstead is a former PBS commissioner, Dan Matthews is a former PBS commissioner and a former staff of this committee, uh Jeffrey Gural and and myself.
▶ 0:45:20The purpose of the board is to identify federal properties that should be disposed of and recommend them for disposition to the Office of Management and Budget and the General Services Administration. We look for properties that are underutilized and which have significant deferred maintenance. The board is not empowered to force a disposition. All we can do is make recommendations. The amended law dictates that four rounds of recommendations.
▶ 0:45:44Uh to date, the PBRB has submitted three rounds totaling $846 million in sales uh proceeds, $5.7 billion in cost savings over 30 years. The most recent recommendation submitted in May of this year identified 11 federal properties encompassing nearly 7 million 7 million gross square feet in seven cities across the United States plus the Washington DC area. Our next report is due next year by December of 26.
▶ 0:46:13And today I'd just like to enlight you about a few issues that we have struggled with over the years. Well, every approved recommendation saves taxpayers millions and costs money to it costs money to achieve these re these savings. New locations have to be identified and fit out for use. Employees and office equipment must be moved and the old property must be prepared for sale.
▶ 0:46:34Congress created the asset proceed space and management fund under the original faster law and directed the sales proceeds from PBIB recommended properties into that fund. were amended that law to stipulate the future proceeds from sales be reverted to the landowning agencies. In both cases, expenditures are subject to the appropriation process.
▶ 0:46:57The board notes that faster access to these funds generated that have already billions have already been generated would provide both an incentive to consolidate and the resources to support the next sale of the next property. The board's independent analysis identified approximately $50 billion in deferred maintenance and repair liabilities across the entire GSA owned portfolio. In contrast, the GSA currently receives about $600 million annually to address those needs.
▶ 0:47:28GSA's portfolio would have to shrink by about 80% to be to keep up with their maintenance within the budget of the appropriation. Everyone realizes this is unrealistic and undesirable. Moving federal agencies to lease space does solve many problems. Leases obviously are known and predictable for the duration of the lease. Federal agencies don't have to contend with constantly degrading properties.
▶ 0:47:52Leases also offer flexibility that can be expanded or shrunk according to the needs of the agencies and taxpayers are not forced to pay for empty space that needs maintenance. However, the economic conditions that may encourage leasing in some markets also reduce the value of the real estate that we might want to sell sell in that same market. So therefore, in some markets, there's competing interest for depending on the market. The board believes that the GSA agrees that federal pro portfolio really should be consolidated.
▶ 0:48:21However, we also recognize the GSA currently relies on the rents paid by their tenant agencies to fund a large portion of their normal operating budget. Any consolidation or reduction denies the GSA those funds, which makes their annual operations much more difficult to do. The board believes it'd be wise to address these conflicting interests, and would be happy to work with Congress to achieve those goals.
▶ 0:48:47The board's uncovered a fair amount of market buildings, but I know my my time is coming to an end. I guess I just want to wrap up then we're going to jump to the bullets. People realize that we have too many buildings that are not fully occupied. We are not getting the current information we need to give the this Congress the information that we would like to give you and the recommendations are more thoughtfully put out and would like to find a way to find to get access that information. I know the word says that we shall get it. Um, we shall see whether that is fulfilled.
▶ 0:49:18I have my serious doubts based on past experience that we'll be able to get access to the information that we need. With that, I'm going to yield back and not get into that red light. Chair, thanks the gentleman. And we also thank the gentleman for his acknowledgement of the world champion Eagles, Philadelphia Eagles. Fascinating. All right. Uh, thank you all for your testimony. We'll now to turn to questions. The chair is now recognized for five minutes of questions. And I'm going to start with Mr. Heler.
▶ 0:49:47By January, all agencies are required to meet 60% minimum occupancy target. And if they don't, they must correct or release the space. Data in this regard is also critical. Um I think I just screwed up my notes here to the work of the public buildings reform board. We received a notification just this week that data release will be delayed due to the shutdown.
▶ 0:50:15Um is uh look I know there was a shutdown but and and we'll use that slide in the next question but I'm assuming you're collecting data and maybe you're delayed because of the shutdown but you have a certain amount of data now. Can you give us the preliminary data that you have now and then commit to us receiving the data on a timely basis based on the time lost for the shutdown?
▶ 0:50:44I would say that'd be about March um uh March 31st. We can we get the preliminary data that you have now now. And can you commit to us getting all the data no later than March
▶ 0:51:00Mr. Mr. Chairman, thank you for the for the question. Uh GSA has been working closely across the executive branch, including with the Office of Management and Budget and all of our occupant agencies uh to collect the the data that is required by the use it act. We very much appreciate this committee's action to pass the public buildings reform uh earlier this year. We believe it gives us a lot of the tools that are going to be necessary to rightsize the portfolio.
▶ 0:51:25Uh we will require resources as as Congressman Capuano and and and and I noted in our opening testimony. Um the shutdown really did uh uh create a situation where many agencies were asking for uh extensions to be able to submit and verify uh the data that that we have been collecting. Um and so I believe as was communicated to the committee yesterday, right?
▶ 0:51:50Uh the administration is is committed to providing the information by the end of March um this year. We want to make sure that we have accurate data. We're providing the committee with accurate data that you all can trust and use uh to to conduct oversight and to make decisions. uh be happy to work with the committee uh to discuss uh you know your your your question regarding uh receiving interim data at at an earlier date. Uh happy to follow up and talk with your staff.
▶ 0:52:20Okay. So what that's a long answer, but what I think I gleaned out of that is we're you're committed to March 31st.
▶ 0:52:25Yes, sir. and and you'll work with us on preliminary data that you have received or partial data that you have received to this date assuming and and recognizing and acknowledging the delay that might have been caused by the shutdown for some for some agents. H
▶ 0:52:41happy to discuss uh ways that we can provide the the committee with
▶ 0:52:45and we'll understand it's not complete and not completely reflective and might need to be adjusted pending further review. But we want to make sure that the process stays on track. Um we want to start looking at what you have now and we want to make sure that that's just not some reason to not provide the full paniply of data on March 31st and then on March 31st you say well look we we're still not complete yet. We we want to kind of use the opportunity to gauge how fast you're going and how far you're getting.
▶ 0:53:14Uh let me turn to the next uh question and then you can put the slide up. As I understand it, GSA is working to reduce liability to the taxpayer by focus focusing its core owned assets on things like courouses, land ports of entry, and other specialized spaces while moving to lease space for traditional offices in order to manage this. I think it is critical for the GSA to leverage real estate expertise.
▶ 0:53:38And I think if you look at this slide, it shows that that the expertise from the outside market of brokers really does very well for the taxpayers and for the government. And so um where the GLS or brokers contracts play an important role in keeping lease costs low. These are nocost contracts leveraging experts at no cost to the taxpayers because the experts are paid on commissions by the buildings owners and they share that commission with the GSA. currently.
▶ 0:54:09Um, that having been said, uh, where is the GSA in renewing the current GLS contracting for leasing services and how is the GSA effectively ledgering the current leveraging the current brokers to work through expiring leases? We feel like you're well behind and we need to catch up to this and that the pro program needs to be modified so that it incentivizes the accurate and s and efficient work of the outside experts.
▶ 0:54:39Uh Mr. Chairman, thank you for for the question. We we agree with you and uh we have been partnering with private sector brokers to supplement our workforce in the public building service for for over two decades. Uh we recognize the value that they bring to the table. Uh the current contract expires in January of 2026.
▶ 0:54:58Uh our plan at this time is to enter into a what we would call a one-year bridge contract uh while we uh sort of work with our uh incoming political leadership to make sure that we structure the contract in a way uh that simplifies ordering procedures uh reduces inefficiencies uh but still allows industry competition and and participation and make sure we're getting the best expertise uh to get to get the job done.
▶ 0:55:23And I I apologize for my colleagues for going over time here, but I just want to delve into this a little more. I I don't know that I was aware of this bridge contract and I want to make sure that, you know, we're not uh creating a bunch of uncertainty for the year where the bridge contract it should pretty much reflect where we hope we're going to go.
▶ 0:55:43And so, uh, is there an will there be an opportunity for members of the both sides of the aisle here to review that bridge contract prior to, um, prior to it coming out and and what is the like January's next month, we're coming pretty fast here.
▶ 0:56:01Yeah, we we have been working on this uh, for the past couple of months and and happy to follow up with with the committee to provide additional information that would be helpful. Yeah, we would very much like to see that and and and provide an opportunity to weigh in where necessary. All right. Again, apologize. I'm over time. Chair now turns to the ranking member, Representative Stanton from Arizona.
▶ 0:56:24Thank you very much, uh, Mr. Chairman. Uh, this subcommittee also has jurisdiction over FEMA. A draft of the FEMA review council's report is out. Um, in my opinion, unfortunately, it still plans to keep FEMA within Homeland Security Department, but the report also recommends the movement of most of the remaining FEMA employees out of Washington DC.
▶ 0:56:48Commissioner Heler, has GSA been involved in any discussions or efforts to move FEMA employees out of Washington DC to Texas or anywhere else?
▶ 0:56:59Uh, thank you for the question, uh, Mr. Ranking Member. I am not aware of any of those conversations occurring. Uh we have been in discussions with FEMA regarding their headquarters lease here in Washington. Um that lease is coming up for expiration in 2027. Um so I I have not uh read read the report that you just referenced, but uh our partners at FEMA uh have have been communicating to us that that receiving that report is a very important milestone as they plan uh uh for their headquarters occupancy.
▶ 0:57:28Uh we will continue to partner with FEMA and um get an understanding of what their requirements are in terms of headcount uh where they need to be um and uh we will provide uh FEMA with options to to meet those requirements in in a cost-effective and efficient way.
▶ 0:57:44As part of your ongoing discussions with Homeland Security for with regard to their current lease, you have not no conversations regarding uh whether or not they want to significantly reduce headcount and move headcount out of Washington DC as part of those the planning for the future disposition of their building.
▶ 0:58:03Um you know, I think I don't certainly don't want to speak for the Department of Homeland Security, but I think
▶ 0:58:08I just want to talk about your your conversations that you've had with them. You indicated they uh you you're in conversation with them regarding the disposition of their lease. AB
▶ 0:58:15absolutely we we are um you know I I think those requirements
▶ 0:58:18what have they said to you about their desire for the for the future of that
▶ 0:58:22Uh at this point they've really been waiting for the release of the of the report that you referenced to to get an understanding of of what impact that report would have on their headquarters occupancy. Um but uh we will continue to to partner with them and happy to follow up with this committee on on any any information related to that lease that uh that you would like to to obtain.
▶ 0:58:43As of this time, there's as far as your your conversations with them, there is no planning for an another FEMA building or a lease of a building for FEMA employees outside of Washington DC.
▶ 0:58:56I am not aware of one at this at this time. Uh my my staff does have conversations with FEMA on an ongoing As part of those conversations, there's a chance that this may have come up, but I I I am not aware of any active plans uh at this time to to enter into leases uh any
▶ 0:59:14okay, they better act quick because according to the report that just came out today as we speak in this hearing, they're planning to move their employees out of Washington DC. At least that's what Secretary Gnome uh wants to do. the the bill that I have with uh ranking member Larson and chairman Graves um very much goes in a different direction. We want to make sure that we continue to grow FEMA here in Washington and move the FEMA director to a cabinet level position. So I appreciate your that information. Congressman Kapuano, good to see you.
▶ 0:59:43Welcome back to this uh August committee. As GSA eliminates space, should customer service operations such as Social Security, field offices, and VA health facilities be treated the same as general office space? How can GSA ensure that the taxpayers who pay for these federal services still have access to them?
▶ 1:00:05The answer is we don't we don't look at that type of stuff. We're interested in buildings. Obviously, as a former member, I want I fought to keep my social security office in my district for the same reason I'm sure you would want it in yours. People need access to it. That's not necessarily have to be in a federal building. Could be in a lease property. There are plenty of ways to deal with this. Uh we are aware of that when we look at buildings as to who's in them and what who needs to be where. Um however, the board is not empowered to to make those decisions.
▶ 1:00:34We do we can and do make recommendations to GSA, but uh most of what we focus on is the building itself, the physical assets.
▶ 1:00:41All right. I mentioned that I'm a recovering mayor. Congressman, should the federal government work with local governments to determine future land use zone land use and zoning principles before taking properties to market?
▶ 1:00:52Very much so. I am also a not a recovering mayor. I still
▶ 1:00:56recovering congressman, recovering
▶ 1:00:57Recovering congressman mayor was a great job. you get to actually do things as opposed to talk to them. Um, the answer is yes, very much so. Again, I've been I was on the board from the get-go and I know there was some issues with certain properties before I got there, but in this last several rounds, last several years, very much so. Uh, every one of the buildings we look at are pretty major assets in the cities and towns. We look at them, we know to be a major impact on them. We've tried very much to work closely with them as best we can.
▶ 1:01:25And so far, to my knowledge, since I've been on the board, there have been not an ounce of problems or actually have had less problems with the local communities because we talked to them than we've had with some of the other federal agencies.
▶ 1:01:37Thank you very much, Congressman. Yield
▶ 1:01:40Chair, thanks. The gentleman, the chair now recognizes the gentleman from Mississippi, Representative Gazelle.
▶ 1:01:46Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for being here today and spending time with us. Uh when I entered the Congress, I was unaware of the big federal uh footprint of real estate in this country uh both owned and leased. Not only is it one of the largest holders of real estate in the country, but the federal government is now facing a possible financial crisis due to these holdings. Since 2003, the GSA has been on the high risk list due to financial ruin it faces.
▶ 1:02:14Maintenance and repairs alone are over $370 billion dollars and growing worse each year. The general management of many of these buildings cost over 10 billion a year. Until this year, most of these buildings sat partially or fully empty while the taxpayers footed the bill for them.
▶ 1:02:32If there's any place where a conversation about the need if there is any place where a conversation about the need to reign in government spending can be on hand, it could start The federal government should not own buildings that cannot maintain and it should not lease offices that is not staffed. Uh Mr. Heler, uh given the significant cost of ownership, is there an overall plan for from the GSA to significantly shift from ownership to
▶ 1:03:04Thanks for the question, Congressman. Um yes, I I would say there there has been a shift uh specifically with respect to general office space requirements. Those are the types of requirements that can typically be met in a very satisfactory and cost-effective way uh in in the leasing market.
▶ 1:03:21Uh where we are concentrating uh the limited resources that we have with the federal inventory is is on those more highly specialized spaces such as courouses, land ports of entry, laboratories, major law enforcement centers. Um so we we do uh you know seek to uh enhance our partnership with the private sector in terms of leasing for for general office space uh as as we move forward.
▶ 1:03:45I think our financial situation just dictates that that that that we must do so and it's a sensible thing to do.
▶ 1:03:52Thank you. Could you tell me what's been the main burden of transitioning from ownership to leasing? Yeah, the the the main burden and thank you for the question is is really um funding um to to relocate agencies. I think Congressman Capuano did a really good job in his opening remarks uh outlining some of the costs associated with relocation. Um you've got to build out space in a new location to meet the tenants needs. You've got to physically move them. You've got to buy personal property like it uh and and furniture.
▶ 1:04:23Um and so I I would say really the chronic underfunding of the federal buildings fund, you know, to the tune of the 15 billion dollars over the past decade and a half. Um we have developed a program called the optimization program and we appreciate this committee's support uh of of of that program. Um uh we were able to allocate about $250 million uh of funding in fiscal year 25 and have requested uh 365 million more in 26.
▶ 1:04:51Uh and we also seek to partner with the public buildings reform bar uh board on the asset proceeds fund where we've requested $193 million in fiscal year 26. Our issue is that um you know we we need to get access to that funding to make some of these relocations happen so that we can dispose of the assets effectively.
▶ 1:05:11Thank you. Last question. uh beyond eliminating commission credits and uh recompeting at the task order level, what else might be used to help attract and retain the best brokers for GSA
▶ 1:05:25Well, I I I I think um sort of relying on a a merit-based system and and and rewarding those high performers. And so we we um as we seek to strategize around our longerterm broker contract over the next several months, you know, we're going to be looking at at ways to to incentivize uh strong performance and to minimize inefficiencies and simplify the ordering procedures.
▶ 1:05:48That's going to help speed up the
▶ 1:05:51I hope so.
▶ 1:05:52Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 1:05:55Chair, thanks the gentleman. The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee, Representative Larson from Washington. Thank you, Chair. Uh first for uh uh Representative Capuano. Um now that you have May of 25 recommendations out, you said 11 federal projects, 7.1 million gross square feet. What what happens next with those recommendations?
▶ 1:06:19Uh those well the recommendations require the approval of OM which they've already given. Uh and now it goes to GSA to make the dispositions the way they see fit. Uh we have no authority to tell them how to do it. I will say that in this round uh GSA we we have been pushing the use of brokers for years now. Up until now GSA has resisted that has basically just put the properties on websites which have resulted in not such great results in my opinion.
▶ 1:06:45Uh but this round I will say that the GSA has uh has hired a few brokers to try to help them get rid of some and I think I'm looking forward to a more successful round than we've had in the past. Um, and following up, you have you have another round and then the board sun sets at the end of next year. Is that right? Yes. Um, do you have a goal for that next round or do the recommendations come organically?
▶ 1:07:07a little bit of both. I mean, the goal is to try to do what the best we can. I mean, none of us are in favor of leaving empty buildings in the portfolio. However, it is difficult to locate them. We don't have any access to the information that this committee is also looking for. um we do the best we can with what we have and we have a very small staff and so therefore we we don't try to bite off more than we can chew.
▶ 1:07:28Uh I I do think that there that that argues in favor of either extending the board or creating some other entity that would then carry on the work of the board. Uh if for no other reason than to keep the other agency's feet to the fire. It has I think has been very helpful to uh focus people's attention when we start looking at a building others start looking at it as well. So we have in for the next round we have had internal discussions of not waiting till the end to make one big recommendation.
▶ 1:07:58We might make an approach we make a few smaller [clears throat] recommendations as we go along. Uh no reason to keep buildings in the portfolio that are ready to be
▶ 1:08:07disposed of.
▶ 1:08:08Yeah. Great. Thanks. Um Dr. Krauss uh go GAO added building condition back as a high-risisk issue this year. um what are the issues on your radar for the high-risk update?
▶ 1:08:22Yeah, we we'll continue to track the four areas of our high-risk um related to federal property. So, you mentioned building condition, which is something we'll continue to monitor, but the other areas are related to facility security, um data reliability, having uh good data to make decisions uh like we're seeing with the use it act and and the data we'll have on utilization come the beginning of the year. um as well as addressing underused um property.
▶ 1:08:47So, we'll continue to continue to look at that and have a number of reviews um and reports we anticipate issuing next year.
▶ 1:08:54Okay, great. Commissioner Heler, um I mentioned the uh at the beginning of my comments how many folks GSA public building service employed at the beginning of the year. It's about 2400 or so fewer. Um is that is that the right number or should it be higher or lower? I mean are you able to get your work done because we have a lot through the use it act.
▶ 1:09:19We gave you work so that we could get to the right size the footprint and uh there's a separate question about what the right size of the federal government employee base should be but but um do you have the people you need because you did as well hire back 30 92 people after cutting not you personally but we we all know how that happened. Um so where where are you in terms of people?
▶ 1:09:46Thank thanks for the question um uh Mr. Congressman. So we we did uh affect our reorganization formally on October 20th. And as you noted in in your opening comments, uh we are now an integrated functional organization where we we organize sort of by major program area. We call it integrated because we work together um across our different disciplines to deliver services to our customers.
▶ 1:10:09Um, our our current political leadership at GSA is very focused, laser focused on on the public building service, being able to effectively provide services to the occupant agencies that pay us for those services and to provide value to the taxpayers and and that's why I was able to get the approval to to offer the opportunity to come back to almost 400 uh folks across PBS and and very happy to report that almost 300 of them um did decide to come back and have since uh uh rejoined Um
▶ 1:10:39we are um really going through an exercise now to determine if there are additional gaps in our workforce. Um and uh I I know that our our leadership has been very supportive of our needs in PBS and I I am confident that to the extent that we do have additional needs um that we'll get the support uh to fill those needs um through uh maybe a combination of of federal employees and and contractor employees.
▶ 1:11:03But uh we are certainly uh uh uh going to be staffed in a way that enables us to deliver our services effectively.
▶ 1:11:11Thank you. We'll have to certainly monitor that as we go forward. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 1:11:16Chair, thanks the gentleman. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from California, Representative Kylie.
▶ 1:11:24Thank you, Mr. Chair. appreciate uh you convening this hearing and uh and your work uh on this uh important topic and uh you know uh we're seeing I think some major improvements for taxpayers which is a great thing. Uh Mr. Heler, I wanted to get your um uh thoughts on um an executive order that uh the president issued making federal agricultural be agricult federal architecture I should say beautiful again. Um which uh I think is a pretty exciting idea.
▶ 1:11:50So much so in fact that I've introduced uh legislation uh to to codify it. Uh do you know how that's going in terms of its
▶ 1:11:59Thanks for the question, Congressman. It is uh it is going well. Um you know the executive order requires us to have qualified professionals within the public building service who are expert in classical and traditional architecture. Uh it requires us to hire a senior adviser um for those types of uh of matters. uh and and we are in the process of of of doing so.
▶ 1:12:21Uh we've been able to uh analyze our ongoing uh design and construction projects and realign them to ensure that that they do align uh with the president's executive order. Like like all of the president's executive orders, our our job is to implement them to the maximum extent possible and we are certainly doing so uh with that particular executive order.
▶ 1:12:42Yeah. You know, one rationale for the uh for the EO is that some of our public buildings have just kind of become eyes. Uh but you know on the flip side there's this uh idea that um you know the the public buildings that uh that we have uh you know courouses other places where citizens uh gather uh and we see it here in DC with with our well-known national buildings should evoke uh you know it should be beautiful but they should also evoke this sort of civic spirit about what democracy is all
▶ 1:13:12about. Do you want to just say a word about uh how that um philosophy is informing the process? H happy to do it and and maybe do so with a real life example. So um la last week I was in Huntsville, Alabama to meet with the federal judiciary uh their space and facilities committee and we met in the new courthouse that GSA recently constructed uh in in that city. Happy to report that we conveyed uh the former courthouse out of federal ownership earlier this year uh as well.
▶ 1:13:39I think when when you sort of drive up on that building or walk into that building, you you you get a sense that that you are in a federal courthouse. And I think all of the meeting participants that were there um you know, last week kind of agreed upon that and um so I think that's just an example of of how we're putting the executive order uh to action.
▶ 1:13:58That's great to hear. Thank you for your work on that. Uh I have the bill here. Senator Banks has a companion measure over in the Senate, so hopefully we'll get that uh in statute as well. I yield back. chair. Thanks a gentleman. The chair now recognizes the gentleoman from Nevada, Miss Titus.
▶ 1:14:13Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I could not disagree more with my colleague about the need for classical architecture on every one of our federal buildings. I support the notion that has been in place for decades that uh our federal buildings should reflect the culture, the talent, the history of the places where they're built. We don't want a courthouse in Boston looking like it's from Santa Fe. We want the Santa Fe courthouse to look like that.
▶ 1:14:43So with all due respect, one man's eyesore is another man's Notradam. So I have a bill called Democracy and Design that would do just the opposite. So you don't have to thank me for that question that I want to put that out there as a statement. Now, through its fine arts program, GSA maintains one of the oldest and largest public collections in the United States. Some of this work goes back to the 1850s.
▶ 1:15:08It's displayed in federal buildings all around the country, courouses that carries deep cultural meaning, uh, significance, helps us understand our culture and our history. Now, as you work to get rid of some of these buildings and to oversee the federal real estate portfolio, I want to be sure that this art is being protected, uh, taken care of like it should be. So, we have an art fine arts protection act directs the GAO to survey the art that's out there in the collection, provide a recommendation of how we can protect it.
▶ 1:15:38I'm wondering if maybe you're aware of that, if you are doing that. Are you working with other institutions like the Smithsonian? And what about the murals that are on the outside of the buildings that you're selling and tearing down? What are you doing to protect those?
▶ 1:15:52Uh well, thank you for the question.
▶ 1:15:55Answer the question.
▶ 1:15:56All right. All right. Uh well, um we certainly want to respect the artwork in any facility that GSA is disposing of and and that is our goal. Um, you know, GSA has has options available to itself to include uh covenants in the artwork or to maintain over m covenants in the deed, maintain ownership in the artwork. Uh, and and those are strategies that we would utilize to ensure that that that artwork is preserved uh appropriately.
▶ 1:16:23Could you give us some some of that information about what those covenants are and what's actually being done instead of what you might have in place to protect that art?
▶ 1:16:32Yes, ma'am. happy to follow up with the committee and provide that information.
▶ 1:16:36Okay, good. I'll look forward to getting that. Now, another question I have is that uh recently the State Department X account posted that they had renamed the Peace Institute the Institute of Peace to now the Donald Trump Institute of Peace. Now, I have some personal reservations, political reservations about putting his name on Institute of Peace given his foreign policy and some of his renaming of the Department of Defense and all that. I wonder what is the GSA's role in allowing that name change to have happened.
▶ 1:17:06Um the GSA did have no formal role uh in that renaming. Um uh GSA transferred the building uh back uh to the US Institutes for Peace earlier this year. Uh and we had no no involvement in the in the renaming of that facility.
▶ 1:17:22According to our legislative council, it's still a GSA building. So why wouldn't you be involved in that? Or did you just abdicate your responsibility? the the the transfer back to to USIP occurred uh I don't have an exact date but it it occurred within the last month or so um and would be happy to follow up with with you and your team to uh clear that issue up
▶ 1:17:44that'd be great and so if you could also send us maybe any of the communication that we had between GSA and the state department about about naming renaming
▶ 1:17:55um uh if they
▶ 1:17:56surely they told you they were going to do it even if you didn't have any input into or did you just see it driving by?
▶ 1:18:02Uh I if the if the committee does have uh uh written requests for information between uh GSA and the State Department, hap happy to follow our our normal customary procedures.
▶ 1:18:12Well, thank you. Now also this is not the only thing that's happening here. I mean we've torn down the East Wing. I mean that that's outrageous enough. But now we're hearing from the president he's got other plans. We're going to have an arc to Trump. Uh you know he's put together some commission of unknown people. I don't know who they are to to look at other changes to the White House and other reforms and other rebuilding make everything look like Mara Lago. How is the GSA involved in that?
▶ 1:18:40I I I I'm not familiar with those conversations and and and respectfully I'd have to defer to the White House on on that matter.
▶ 1:18:48But ain't that your job to those federal buildings to oversee?
▶ 1:18:52Well, the white there there are multiple uh agencies involved with the management of the White House. Um, GSA is one of them. But
▶ 1:18:59what about on this new arc?
▶ 1:19:02I I I'm not familiar with those details.
▶ 1:19:05It seems like GSA is kind of helpless or hopeless in the in light of what's going on with our federal buildings and just dictates that come from the president. Is that are you is there any reason to keep you around?
▶ 1:19:17Well, I think there's a lot of reasons to keep GSC around. um you know we we we deliver uh savings for the taxpayer uh provide high value services to our customers but with respect to the projects at the White House I I would have to defer to to the White House
▶ 1:19:31or the public art or the ark or any of
▶ 1:19:35Well, as I mentioned a few we're certainly uh committed to to preserving artwork and respecting uh respecting its historical integrity.
▶ 1:19:44All the same the chair the chair thanks the gentle lady. The chair now recognizes the representative from Michigan, Representative Barrett.
▶ 1:19:52Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and uh thank you all for being here. Merry Christmas and appreciate your testimony. Um I am um probably the least qualified person to opine on architecture and what what is artistic and aesthetic. I'm just an army grunt. So, uh I'll leave it to the professionals to make that determination.
▶ 1:20:12Uh, one interesting um, uh, point uh, I was thinking about is um, the last major restoration or renovation of the White House was about 75 years ago and I think they tore it down to the wall studs and and rebuilt entirely from the inside. And uh, Mr. Chairman, my great-grandfather was actually on the commission that helped oversee that uh, you know, 75 years ago, which was kind of interesting. But um, anyway, questions I had for you. When I heard we were having a PBS in our hearing, I thought maybe we were all going to go viral today.
▶ 1:20:42Um, but it turns out you're with a different PBS. Um, so thank you for being here nonetheless. Um, I wanted to ask, so I I had a social security office in my district that closed for several months, was a lease building, and uh, it felt like the the property owner was not really diligently working in earnest to remedy the issues of concern there before the building in the office could be reopened.
▶ 1:21:08Um, do you feel that we have adequate enforcement capability with our uh, like the lease um, spaces that we have that are owned by a landlord? Do we have adequate leverage to make sure that they're in in enforcing their obligations
▶ 1:21:25Um, thank you for the question, Congressman. Yes, generally I I think we uh, we do have the right uh, enforcement mechanisms embedded into our lease contracts to remedy issues such as that uh, you know, in an expeditious manner. um unfortunate to hear about the Social Security office in in in your district and I'd be happy to follow up with you to get more details and and get a better understanding of what took place there and how we can make sure that it doesn't uh reoccur elsewhere.
▶ 1:21:50Yeah, thankfully they've they've since reopened. Appreciate the work um uh to to get that done. Um, but it did give me concern that if we were constantly in this dispute with a landlord with an important office that, you know, affects obviously constituents in my district, but could be equally applicable anywhere else in the country that we want to make sure we have the appropriate negotiating leverage over over the landlord for any leases that we're engaged in.
▶ 1:22:16Um, I'm also uh curious to know, I mean, we talked a lot about deferred maintenance and how a lot of legacy buildings are going to cost a lot more to upkeep or renovate or build back into a condition of serviceability. Um, so there's been a shift to kind go into more leased spaces, which I think in today's evolving workforce environment might make a lot of sense that we have a little bit more of a nimble ability then to scale up or scale down based on the needs that we have without owning the underlying assets.
▶ 1:22:47Um, you pointed out some costs associated with that, you know, kind of more startup costs maybe. have have you done or is has there been any analysis of kind of the break even point if we were to do everything that the three of you think may be necessary to get done to perfectly move into the right appropriate size space and and maybe um you know shed off some of these legacy buildings that may not be necessary anymore. At what point do you think the taxpayers could break even on those lease spaces?
▶ 1:23:18Uh thank you for the question, Congressman. We we really look uh a to analyze financially every one of those transactions that that you uh that you just described. Um and typically we like to see that uh we are able to recoup throughout the firm term of the lease uh at least the amount of of savings in terms of reduced rental costs to the taxpayer um that it costs to move the tenant upfront.
▶ 1:23:41So, if it's going to cost $10 million to move the tenant out of a federal building into a lease space, you know, we want to ensure that the government is going to save at least $10 million during the occupancy um you know, of of that lease. Um, so that that's one of the ways that that look at
▶ 1:23:58Do you take into account I assume if we vacate a building, do we sell that or what happens to the building in the inventory or is it like by the time it's in that condition, you know, uh, it's like when you try and trade in your your car when you're in college and it's not worth anything anymore. Ev every asset is different. Uh, there's usually a market for everyone.
▶ 1:24:16Um but primarily the savings that we that we capture are associated with the deferred maintenance costs and the annual operating costs um that that the asset incurs related to janitorial services uh keeping the lights and the heat and the cooling on and and the operations and maintenance of the mechanical plant.
▶ 1:24:35Okay. My last question, Mr. Chairman. Um a lot of our uh federal buildings are historic in nature. If we have deferred and and you know a lot of maintenance due on them, are we obligated by a lot of the historic preservation requirements to replace you know the building facade with the exact same material that might be difficult to source or can we be a little bit more pragmatic with how we do that?
▶ 1:24:58Uh I am not an expert on all of those details. I I certainly have uh folks at at at with on our staff uh that that are. Um but there are generally um different approaches that you can take to uh uh to mitigate different adverse impacts uh to a historic building and um we work closely with stakeholders such as state historic preservation officers, other consulting parties where where applicable uh to put those measures in
▶ 1:25:23Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 1:25:26Chair, thanks a gentleman. The chair now uh recognizes the representative from Washington DC, Delegate Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I strongly oppose the Trump administration's plans to move federal agencies outside the District of Columbia and the National Capital Region.
▶ 1:25:51However, there are specific federal buildings in DC that GSA should dispose of and then we locate the employees in these buildings to other buildings in DC.
▶ 1:26:09These disposals would save the federal government money, generate tax revenue for DC uh increase housing supply, and lead to a new mixeduse neighborhoods.
▶ 1:26:25I am deeply concerned that the Trump administration has not developed a plan to dispose of federal buildings in DC in a manner that benefits both federal p and DC.
▶ 1:26:43My question for all three witnesses is what is your view of establishing an entity entity like the Pennsylvania Avenue Redevelopment Corporation or using a master developer as was done for the Southeast Federal Center, now known as the Yards, to develop a plan for and to manage these disposals.
▶ 1:27:14This is for all three witnesses.
▶ 1:27:19I can start. Um that seems like a reasonable um proposal to explore. Um I think anytime you have a number of assets in a similar location, you need to take a strategic look at how you're redeveloping them. Um, you know, that'll require so that redevelopment really requires a deliberative planning and uh partnering with lo uh local partners or working coordinating with local partners to ensure you're maximizing um taxpayer
▶ 1:27:49Again, the board per se would have no role in that, but we've had our discussions. We strongly support the general concept of it. Uh especially in the DC area, but not only in the DC area. There are other cities around the country that have concentrations of federal buildings that would be seriously impacted if uh depending on what we do with them. Uh we like the idea of working with local communities or city leaders to try to come up with what's uh what what they want.
▶ 1:28:16And some of these areas, especially DC, are just too large. It's it's more than just one building and have a major impact on the community, have a major impact on the real estate values that are underlying. So, we very much favor the the concept of creating some sort of entity to do it. Again, I would say not just in DC, but around the country. DC is not the only place that has those concerns, but I think the concept is absolutely right.
▶ 1:28:44Yeah. And I I'll agree with with my with my colleagues here uh on the panel. Uh GSA has begun to make good progress in in um uh disposing of unneeded buildings here in the district. We sold the Webster school earlier this year.
▶ 1:28:57uh Liberty Loan and our former regional office building at 7th and D are both currently on the market and we would welcome an opportunity to partner with this committee uh and other stakeholders to ensure that uh you know as we dispose of these facilities that they're either reused and redeveloped in a in a in a a way that benefits the local community and the taxpayers.
▶ 1:29:20Commissioner uh Heler, GSA has not been coordinating closely enough with DC on the disposal of federal buildings here. Do you think such coordination is important and will you commit to close coordination with DC on all future
▶ 1:29:42Thank you for the question, Congresswoman. We agree that stakeholder engagement um is an important facet of disposing of buildings effectively um and and we seek to partner uh with local communities in every community that we uh dispose of federal buildings in. So yes, we will we will continue to partner uh with the district and and again make sure that uh you know as federal buildings are are redeveloped or reused that that uh you know that that they are done in a way that benefits the local community and the taxpayer.
▶ 1:30:15Yield back.
▶ 1:30:18Gentle lady yields back. Thank the gentle lady. Are there further questions from any of the members of the subcommittee who have not yet been recognized? Seeing none and sadly saying so. Uh that concludes our hearing for today. I would like to thank each of the witnesses for your testimony. This subcommittee stands