▶ 0:19:16The committee will come to order and without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the subcommittee at any time. Welcome to today's hearing entitled the Genesis Mission Prioritizing American Science and Leadership Tech Technology Leadership. I'd like to recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:19:40Good morning and thank you for joining us for today's timely hearing entitled The Genesis Mission: Prioritizing American Science and Technology Leadership. I'm eager for this morning's discussion and to learn more about the Genesis mission as well as the Department of Energy's recent to reflect the Trump administration's new priorities.
▶ 0:20:04On November the 24th, President Trump signed an executive order 14363, launching the Genesis mission, creating a national initiative to build the world's most advanced platform to accelerate scientific innovation and discovery by harnessing the power of artificial intelligence. Led by DOE in collaboration with the White House Office of Science and Technology, this effort arrives at a pivotal moment.
▶ 0:20:33We are in the midst of a computing revolution propelled by AI that is transforming how that we we conduct science. The Genesis mission brings together DOE 17 national laboratories, America's leading universities and industry to create a national discovery platform that unites the world's most powerful supercomputers, AI systems, and emerging quantum technologies with the nation's premier scientific instruments.
▶ 0:21:01Establishing an integrated infrastructure for groundbreaking By connecting these systems, the Genesis mission will generate new data to train advanced AI models, empowering researchers to tackle the most complex scientific challenges. Its goal is to double the productivity and impact of US research and development by pairing scientists with intelligence systems that can reason, simulate and experiment at extraordinary speeds.
▶ 0:21:32Let me be clear, the Genesis mission will not use AI to replace scientists, but to enhance scientists in their work. It leverages AI for discovery, not automation. It helps researchers explore and understand our universe with greater depth and efficiency than was ever previously possible.
▶ 0:21:54Think of the breakthroughs that could be unlocked from realizing fusion energy to securing critical uh materials to discovering new quantum comput uh computing algorithms and life-saving medicines. The Genesis mission has the potential to expand the realm of possibilities across energy discovery science and national security.
▶ 0:22:16I look forward to examining how the Genesis mission will reinforce American leadership and how DOE's reorganization positions the department to carry out the administration's priorities. To ensure American leadership and cutting edge technologies, the Trump administration established two new offices at DOE. One focused on AI and quantum and the other on nuclear fusion.
▶ 0:22:42This reflects the department's commitment to advancing critical and emerging technologies that will strengthen America's strategic position. Understanding how these new offices will support the Genesis mission and the administration's broader priorities is essential to today's discussion. We cannot afford to seed scientific leadership and advanced technological sectors to our adversaries, especially the Chinese Communist Party or CCP.
▶ 0:23:11This common sense reorganization in concert with the Genesis mission recognizes that reality and underscores the the strengths of our national labs, universities and industry and driving exploration and discovery across basic These types of public private partnerships are key to ensuring our scientific enterprise plays an integral role in safeguarding our energy, economic and national security.
▶ 0:23:39This committee is committed to working with the department to bolster these partnerships and to promote the shared priorities of both the committee and the administration so that the United States remains at the forefront of innovation. I want to thank you once again and under secretary Gil, thank you so much. We really appreciate you being here uh and looking forward to your testimony today. And with that, I'll yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 0:24:06And uh now I'd like to recognize the uh the ranking member, Miss Lafrren.
▶ 0:24:11Uh thank you and good morning. Um thank you chairman Babin uh for holding this hearing today and to under secretary Gil for being here. You know under normal circumstances I would begin by talking about the exciting activities under your portfolio and how much I look forward to working with you on each of them. That would certainly include my long-standing support for uh dramatically accelerating the development and commercialization of fusion energy.
▶ 0:24:39However, I feel duty bound to raise my strong objection to the notion of holding this hearing before we hear from Secretary Wright himself. As the secretary should fully understand by now, this committee has sole jurisdiction in the House of Representatives over the authorization of all of the Department of Energy's non-military science and energy research, development, demonstration, and commercial application
▶ 0:25:10programs that he supposedly cares so deeply about. With no disrespect to our friends at the Energy and Commerce Committee, uh this committee actually far exceeds the annual DOE budgetary authority that they oversee. And yet the secretary and his team have repeatedly found excuses to avoid testifying before us. Nearly every recent energy secretary has made themselves available to testify in front of this committee in the first session of Congress.
▶ 0:25:39However, Secretary Wright has decided to run out the clock while taking a series of highly consequential, I would say, l legally dubious and otherwise objectionable actions in his first 11 months in office that have raised profound concerns among many members on both sides of the aisle.
▶ 0:25:58There must be accountability for the slap dash extremely politicized termination of billions of DOE awards that were previously provided across the country through extremely rigorous independent merit-based processes. The mass firings and coerced departures of de dedicated experts throughout DOE. The illegal elimination of the Office of Clean Energy demonstrations.
▶ 0:26:26insanely inaccurate statements regarding the role that renewables play in ensuring the reliability of our electric grid. The widely debunked climate quote science unquote report that the secretary commissioned. I could go on. I'm happy to hear from you, Dr. Gil, today, but Secretary Wright really has a responsibility to respond to our inquiries on each of these matters himself. I I want to make clear, however, we may disagree from time to time on policy.
▶ 0:26:56Mr. Chairman, my demand and expectation that the secretary appear before this committee on a regular basis is not partisan. It's an obligation of every secretary, regardless of administration. And it has always been implied that refusal to engage in this norm could serve as grounds for the committee to issue a subpoena uh for testimony.
▶ 0:27:17Last Congress, when Chairman Lucas was having difficulty confirming a hearing date with Secretary Granholm's team, I called the Secretary directly and personally and made sure that she understood my expectations as well. And I would have supported measures to compel her testimony if it had come to that. But it didn't. The hearing was scheduled shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, this is part of a broad pattern of Congress not being able to fulfill our oversight responsibilities.
▶ 0:27:46At this point in time last Congress, the heads of the following agencies had already testified in the science committee. The Department of Commerce, the Department of Energy, the EPA, National Science Foundation, US Fire Administration, NASA, NIST, Noah. We also heard from an inspector general from many of these agencies. this H Congress, we haven't heard from a single agency head or a single inspector general.
▶ 0:28:12This isn't acceptable and it it provides for a void in our article one duties to oversee the agencies within our jurisdiction. Mr. Chairman, I know that you wish to do vigorous oversight as do I. Um, but I I have to raise this concern of the stonewall that we've received. I look forward to a thoughtful and comprehensive discussion with Dr.
▶ 0:28:35Gil this morning and I [clears throat] hope that together we can reassert and enforce the right of this committee to have the cabinet level heads of each of these agencies under our jurisdiction appear [snorts] before [clears throat] our members going forward. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:28:53Gentlewoman yields back. Thank you and I appreciate exactly what you said, but I will cl make a clarifying statement there. Secretary Wright was confirmed to testify before this committee um on October the 15th. Unfortunately, due to the Senate Democrat government shutdown, that hearing did not come to fruition. And now with the recent launch of the Genesis mission, this committee found it timely to invite Under Secretary Gil to testify on this historic endeavor.
▶ 0:29:24And we to look forward to hearing more about this today. We have commitments from the secretary from secretary Wright that who will be available to testify before this committee early next year and we look forward to hearing about the good work that the department is doing from him
▶ 0:29:41would the gentleman yield just briefly he he did cancel our September 18th uh appearance and I was based my comments were based on that but I am grateful to hear that he is going to be here uh appearing before us early next year. I wish that it had been in this first session of Congress. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:30:00Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Okay. Uh, thank you, Ranking Member Lof. And I now recognize the chairman of the Energy Subcommittee for an opening statement, Mr. Weber of Texas.
▶ 0:30:12Uh, good morning and thank you, Chairman Bamett, for holding this hearing on such hearing on such a critical and timely topic. I too would also like to thank Under Secretary Secretary Gil for being here and and we actually have, Mr. Chairman, something happened that I haven't seen in 12 years that I've been on this committee. We have a lot of lab directors right here on that front. Can we give them a hand?
▶ 0:30:36So So I I like to say that the national lab directors are the spear tip of America's preeeminence into the future. Thank you all for what y'all do. In November, the Department of Energy released its reorganization plans outlining the creation, merger, and renaming of several key elements within the department. You know, this is not a unique action as each administration typically updates DOE structure to align the department with its priorities.
▶ 0:31:06The latest reforms streamline DOA's operations DOE's operations and in my view represent a step in the right direction toward appropriately distributing the responsibilities of the offices of the under secretaries for science and energy. Most offices focus on applied energy technology have now been consolidated under the under secretary for energy.
▶ 0:31:30Prime example of this is the moving the office of fossil energy now renamed h the hydrocarbons and geothermal energy office from the under secretary for science to the under secretary of energy by shifting offices responsible but for established and mature technologies from the science portfolio to the energy portfolio.
▶ 0:31:53The responsibilities of the two under secretaries are now far more aligned than under the previous structure put in place by the Biden administration. Subsequently, with this restructuring, the under secretary for science now has a clear mandate from the administration to continue advancing fundamental research while driving cuttingedge innovation in critical and emerging fields vital to America's national economic and energy security.
▶ 0:32:23Did I mention that the national labs are the spirit for American innovation? Did I mention that? Two new offices, the office of art artificial intelligence and quantum and the office of fusion have been established, emphasizing the central role these disciplines will play in keeping American innovation and technology in the lead.
▶ 0:32:43Furthermore, their creation also serves as a signal to the world's America's renewed commitment to these crucial and rapidly evolving techn technology sectors. The under secretary for science now has the additional tools to help move trailblazing emerging science from early ideas to commercial applications.
▶ 0:33:05With the office of science and the office of technology commercialization brought under the same umbrella, the research and development cycle can be accelerated by streamlining all of these efforts under one single roof. This reorganization appears to be a significant win for all parties involved.
▶ 0:33:25Researchers and companies now have streamlined, clearly defined offices at DOE to engage with ensuring taxpayers get the absolute best bang for their buck. It is a rare common sense step, I have to say, by the federal government that delivers broad benefits rather than serving only a select few. And I would be remiss, Mr.
▶ 0:33:49Chairman, if I did not mention the Genesis mission announcement and your push to propel America's artificial intelligence R&D. I am looking forward to hearing how the mission will integrate with DOE's newly reorganized structure and more importantly how Congress can keep the momentum moving forward on artificial intelligence.
▶ 0:34:11You know, our adversaries have prioritized the very technologies the Genesis mission seeks to advance like fusion, artificial intelligence, and quantum sciences. And regardless of party, regardless of party, we all want America to win this race and remain at the forefront of these disciplines as they continue to grow and evolve. Thank you, Under Secretary Gil, for attending this hearing today. lab directors as well.
▶ 0:34:37I look forward to hearing your perspective, Secretary Gil, on how this reorganization has strengthened the department of efficiency and impact as well how enables DOE to execute the genesis mission. Mr. Chairman, I yield
▶ 0:34:51Thank you, Mr. Weber. Appreciate it. Now, I'd like to recognize a ranking member from the energy subcommittee for a statement.
▶ 0:34:58Thank you so much, Chairman Babin, for convening today's hearing on the Genesis mission. I also want to thank Dr. Gil for being here this morning as our witness. This initiative led by the Department of Energy is a strategic undertaking for the future of our nation's prosperity and security.
▶ 0:35:19The Genesis mission has the potential to double American research productivity within a decade by connecting national labs, universities, and industry to develop powerful AI platforms for science. The core objective of the mission is to train scientific foundation models, automate research workflows, and boost research and development productivity.
▶ 0:35:48In doing so, America will continue accomplishing breakthroughs in advanced nuclear energy, fusion power, and grid It also solidifies our quantum ecosystem and fosters discoveries in material science, biotechnology, and physics.
▶ 0:36:10The initiative relies heavily on collaboration with academia and the private sector in a budget constrained environment. I'm glad to see the Department of Energy prioritizing research infrastructure investments with Universities serve a crucial link in the public private ecosystem, working alongside national laboratories and private sector
▶ 0:36:40innovators. North Carolina State University in my district already plays a vital role in this project. NC State is the national leader in advanced materials, energy systems, AI and data science, high-performing computing, and advanced manufacturing, all core pillars of the Genesis mission.
▶ 0:37:06In the past three years, NC State has been awarded over $40 million in funding for research in AI and machine learning. of all the universities in North Carolina and we have many excellent ones. Congresswoman Fousei um they NC State does the most research with the Department of Energy.
▶ 0:37:27However, it is very important to acknowledge the severity of the Trump administration's federal funding cuts to the Department of Energy and the effects these cuts will have on the Genesis mission. The president's FY26 budget request proposes an overall decrease of $3.5 billion or 7% from the FY25 enacted level of funding.
▶ 0:37:57These cuts have created conflict between the mission's ambitious goals and the simultaneous termination of freezing billions of dollars of existing energy and research projects. Moreover, firing worldclass scientists and pausing programs will hinder American innovation and our leadership in the world.
▶ 0:38:20Each dollar cut from DOE gives our adversaries an ability to gain the upper hand. for the United States to carry out the Genesis mission successfully, we need the Department of Energy to be well supported and organized. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 0:38:42Thank you. I appreciate that very much. Um, and my colleague from Texas has already announced this, but we do have Do we have all 17 here? This is This is great. Thank Thank you all for being here. We really appreciate it's uh it's an honor to have you all here. Okay. Uh our witness today is Dr. Dario Gil. Dr. Gil currently serves as the under secretary for science at the United States Department of Energy. Dr.
▶ 0:39:12Gil previously served as senior vice president and director of research at IBM. Dr. Gil has also served on the president's council on of science and technology advisors or PCAST and on the national science board as well. So now I'd like to recognize under secretary Gil for five minutes for your testimony. Thank you. Good morning everybody. Uh Chairman Bavin, ranking member Lorren and distinguished members of the committee.
▶ 0:39:41I am honored to address you today on a topic of profound importance to our nation's scientific future and global competitiveness, artificial intelligence. My career, including my tenure as the 12th director of IBM research, has afforded me a front row seat to the convergence of high performance computing, AI, and quantum computing. This convergence is not merely an advancement. It is a scientific and technological revolution.
▶ 0:40:11These technologies will fundamentally transform the practice of science and The department of energy with its unique missions and parallel expertise and worldclass national laboratories is uniquely position to lead this Thanks to sustained bipartisan support from this committee and Congress, DOE possesses the capabilities to advance the AI and quantum frontiers and apply the revolutionary
▶ 0:40:41potential across all our missions, strengthening the country's prosperity and national security. This aligns with the president's vision for American energy dominance and winning the AI race. The president's recent executive order launching the Genesis mission underscores the foundational work DOE has already accomplished in AI and tasks us with leading an ambitious national effort.
▶ 0:41:09This mission will mobilize our 17 national laboratories, industry and academia to build an integrated discovery platform, the Genesis Science and Security Platform. This platform will unite the world's fastest supercomputers, AI systems, next generation quantum computers, and exquisite scientific instruments, creating the most complex and powerful scientific instrument ever built.
▶ 0:41:36This unparalleled platform will tackle high impact grand challenges across DOE's broad mission. In energy, we will accelerate advanced nuclear and fusion technologies and modernize power grid using AI for reliable, affordable, and secure energy. In scientific discovery, we will utilize physics aware AI to accelerate breakthroughs in materials, chemistry, and our understanding of the universe, ensuring America's leadership in fundamental science.
▶ 0:42:06And in national security, we will strengthen supply chains, secure critical materials, and accelerate the development of defense ready materials and advanced This mission, which we envision as our generation's Manhattan or Apollo scale project, will multiply the return on taxpayer investment and solidify America's global technological and strategic leadership. DOE's approach rest on several critical pillars.
▶ 0:42:35We recognize that AI and quantum are not just tools but foundational elements of new supercomputing platforms. Our exoscale machines Aurora, Frontier, and Al Capitan are already demonstrating AI's potential in scientific workflows. New machines like Dudna, Mission, and Vision will further accelerate AI training and high performance computing for scientific and national security applications.
▶ 0:43:03They will also allow us to push the frontier of AI beyond language and coding and into the realms of science and engineering. AI and quantum computing offer a fundamentally new paradigm for understanding the natural world. They are the new scientific instruments of our time.
▶ 0:43:24And just like telescopes and microscopes transform how we see the very large, the very far, and the very small, AI and quantum supercomputers are going to transform how we make sense of the very complex by designing systems that can learn, adapt, reason, and experiment, not just calculate. We are creating the engines that will drive discoveries for the next century of American innovation.
▶ 0:43:51And while I am passionate about our unfolding computing revolution, I'm even more passionate about what our national laboratories and the 40,000 dedicated scientists, engineers, and technical staff will do with it. The national labs are the crown jewels of our innovation ecosystem, the ultimate proving grounds where theory meets the physical world.
▶ 0:44:14This is truly a team effort at the department and I am honored to be joined here by an extraordinary group of leaders, the directors of the 17 national laboratories of the United States. I can tell you that we meet every week and that we're all united in making the Genesis mission a success. The Genesis mission requires forging partnerships to bring the best that academia, industry, philanthropy, and government have to offer.
▶ 0:44:43The recently announced AI supercomputing partnerships with for discovery and solstice and NNSA's collaboration with frontier AI companies to deploy powerful AI models in classified environments are great examples of the potential. After all, it's worth remembering that the private sector conduct conducts nearly 70% of our nation's trillion dollar a year R&D efforts.
▶ 0:45:08The Department of Energy through its national laboratories is prepared to lead this national mission with a profound sense of urgency. We are in a race against our peer competitors and we recognize that science, engineering, and technology are the new currency of strategic power. This is a race we must and will win. This work may well define our generation's legacy, and we are committed to deliver for our nation and for our fellow citizens.
▶ 0:45:37Thank you and I welcome your questions.
▶ 0:45:40Thank you, Under Secretary Gil, for your testimony. And now we will move on to questions and the chair will recognize himself for five minutes. And so, Dr. Gil, thank you for your testimony. You mentioned the funding that you received in the Working Class Bonus Tax Relief Act this summer is helping to kickstart Genesis. Can you go into a little more detail on what parts of the platform you're creating for these initial funds?
▶ 0:46:11Yes. First of all, I'm uh the department is enormously appreciative of the support uh that Congress has put to uh you know advance the Genesis mission. Um so at the core we're doing two things. We're building a platform and we are constructing a portfolio of scientific and engineering challenges for energy national security and discovery science.
▶ 0:46:33that funding which actually today we're going to be announcing the first $320 million of programs for the American Science Cloud and uh for the transformational model consortia is going to allow us to disperse funds across different national laboratories and in partnership also with universities and other stakeholders to start curating data sets that are based on scientific and engineering efforts that the laboratories have conducted over decades and be able to
▶ 0:47:03allow us to encode the information and the results of those data sets in a new generation of AI models and it also is allowing us to start building the core infrastructure for both computing and collaboration across the stakeholders to make it happen. So we are delighted uh that that funding was allocated and we are already executing it.
▶ 0:47:24Yes sir. Thank you. You [clears throat] also mentioned the importance that quantum is going to play in making these scientific leaps forward. How vital is it that Congress and more specifically this very committee SST works to reauthorize the National Quantum Initiative Act?
▶ 0:47:40Um, first thing I'll say is I I devoted a good part of my life to quantum computing. So I love that field. I'll just say it uh upfront. Uh I remember coming here when the first national quantum initiative was being discussed and we brought at the time a quantum chandelier uh to have discussions with members. Uh so I've been a big fan of the national quantum initiative.
▶ 0:48:01A few weeks ago actually uh we re um you know announced the renewal of the centers $625 million for renewal and I'm very supportive and enthusiastic to reauthorize in the national quantum uh initiative. I would say one thing is that uh while I am incredibly supportive of continue to advance quantum information science, we're in the fortunate position that now we can also build quantum computers and uh realize the dream of this field.
▶ 0:48:31So what I would also hope is we get a chance to uh to do both support quantum information science and deliver a capability.
▶ 0:48:38Yes sir. And I want to follow that up with uh how do you envision the department's existing efforts on quantum working with Genesis missions uh proposed actions?
▶ 0:48:49Uh yeah, great question. So the the platform at its heart has to bring three things together. Supercomputing which the department is justly worldrenowned for AI supercomputers and quantum supercomputers. This latter category obviously is less mature than the other ones, but we view the Genesis mission as an opportunity to deliver quantum supercomputers and to connect them with AI and high performance computing. Excellent. And I still have a little time.
▶ 0:49:18So um uh Mr. Under Secretary uh Americans were crushed by the inflation uh which was really basically caused by massive spending uh during the Biden administration. uh on green technology subsidies and special interest mandates that raised electricity bills and prices at the pump.
▶ 0:49:40How did the working class bonus tax relief act elimination of act elimination of that burden drive down costs to the consumer? How did that So look uh you know the more we offer a common sense approaches of how we produce energy and the regulatory burden that we impose uh in our private sector and the broader ecosystem and simplify that so we allow both consumer choice and and and then also like I said common
▶ 0:50:10sense approaches on how we build products and the energy that is going to power them uh the better results we're going to deliver for the American citizens including lowering costs. So that's the priority of the department is just to implement those approaches.
▶ 0:50:23Affordability is a very very big issue. It certainly is. Okay. Well, I will uh yield the balance of my time and recognize ranking member of the full committee for her questions.
▶ 0:50:33Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Dr. Gil, thank you for being here. I remember very well the hearing where you were an expert witness and uh and on the quantum computing issue and certainly I can't think of too many other times when an subject matter expert witness ended up being an under secretary in charge of those subjects. So I think uh we're lucky America's lucky that you've agreed to take this position and I look forward uh to working with you.
▶ 0:51:02I you know I am you are very well schooled in quantum and in AI. I want to talk about the fusion program. Um you recently spoke at the launch event for a report uh from the special competitive studies project on accelerating the commercialization of fusion.
▶ 0:51:22As you know, uh, that report included a detailed analysis that found that China has invested at least 6.5 billion in fusion development since 2023, about three times the total funds uh that DOE's fusion energy science program has spent over the same time period. And the authors noted that largely because of the lack of transparency in China, that's a conservative estimate. It could be as much as 10 to$13 billion.
▶ 0:51:51You know, we did, our scientists did a fusion road map. China funded it. We didn't. Um, in response to these findings, the CCSP uh has recommended that the United States make a one-time $10 billion investment in fusion research and commercial demonstration efforts to ensure that the US wins the commercial fusion uh race. And that mirrors the recommendation from the Fusion Industry Association.
▶ 0:52:21Now, we are all concerned about uh our budget deficit, but I would note during the shutdown, the Trump administration found a way to provide $20 billion to Argentina, and we've just heard the announcement of 12 billion uh to soybean farmers. So to put this request in perspective, the 10 billion on fusion will probably play bigger divid dividends for our country than those two expenditures.
▶ 0:52:52Um without commenting on the Argentina and soybean expenditures, do you agree with the recommendation the $10 billion shot in the arm to catch up to China?
▶ 0:53:04So um ranking member, it's great to uh be here and to see you again. I also remember fondly our discussions when I was in the national science board. So, uh thank you for your support in those efforts. Um so first of all let me just say that fusion is an absolute top priority for uh secretary Wright and for myself uh being consistent uh that in addition to stewarding and providing good leadership on the broad mandate on the office of science uh that that we do priorities are AI quantum and fusion and
▶ 0:53:34within that we released a road map uh about a month ago or so that lays out the infrastructure investments that we need to make as a department to complement the $9 billion of venture capital that has been invested into fusion energy. I think that that's a very exciting development.
▶ 0:53:56That's your billion dollar a year
▶ 0:53:58Uh yeah, that is correct. So, so, so that effort is and and we're doing and uh I was actually the last couple of days with the leader of the fusion industry and what we're doing just so you know the plan that we have ahead is we laid out the road map of the department.
▶ 0:54:15We're in the process right now of working collaboratively with all the stakeholders meaning private sector and academia to lay out an integrated roadmap of all the things we need to do as a country to deliver fusion power plants in the early 2030s.
▶ 0:54:30C can I can I ask about the um I've heard that there are proposals to reallocate uh funds from the bipartisan infrastructure law towards fusion and I don't think that's going to work. Those um funds have been appropriated. Um there you can't impound the funds. If you try and do it, there'll be lawsuits and you're going to lose the lawsuit.
▶ 0:54:57And so I'm looking for I mean we've got and I'm glad you're working with private sector. I'm not critical of that. But we're looking for an infusion of federal research funds so that we can win this fight. And the um the recommendation being made by the scientists really of the 10 billion dollar infusion uh is it's agreed to by private sector as well as the uh scientists.
▶ 0:55:26uh could make the difference. We are at an a critical point in fusion and we've seen a huge amount of funds from the private sector, venture capital and the like and that is wonderful. But there are some things that they can't do. There's some research that we need to do that will benefit the entire industry and that is what this shot in the arm is intended to do. So I see actually my time is expired but I'm looking forward to working with you Dr.
▶ 0:55:56Gil because I think when you look at the entire uh budget and you know I don't know why Argentina needs $20 million but certainly the fusion industry uh does. So with that I yield back Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:56:10Now I'd like to recognize gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Fleman.
▶ 0:56:14Thank you Mr. Chairman. Appreciate you're holding this hearing. Under Secretary Gil, thank you for your wonderful visit this morning. I think that was probably one of the best presentations, very concise, articulate. Uh, and to our national lab directors, our national labs are our national treasures. Um, in my role as chairman of energy and water, uh, chair for appropriations. It's a privilege to fund you all every year. Um, and thank you.
▶ 0:56:43I'm I'm especially pleased that we can have 17 all of our national labs participate in this endeavor. I think that's that's truly outstanding. Um Mr. Secretary, uh this is really an incredible opportunity and uh you can hear sometimes some of the political bantering back and forth, but the the reality is that this great administration and you all are committed to doing something that we rarely get an opportunity to do.
▶ 0:57:13That's to take supercomputing, which I've championed for years uh at Oakidge National Lab and and around the country, AI computing and quantum computing and bringing them together. So whether it's something that the ranking member might favor in the way of fusion or you were discussing protein read uh uh uh protein um research and the like. Pick the topic. This is the opportunity to solve the problems across the spectrum.
▶ 0:57:42And I think that can't be lost today. We have an unprecedented opportunity right now with this endeavor. So I thank you so much. Um with my appropriators hat on. Um I we will need your help in terms of figuring out where to put those key dollars. We did that with supercomputing. I can remember we were at pedlops level uh meeting in Oakidge and we worked with the other national labs and guess what? We got to exoscale and we're going to get to beyond.
▶ 0:58:10But these other two aspects are that perhaps most importantly I do want to say that we are going to bring together academia. We're going to bring together industry. We're going to bring together philanthropy and we're going to bring together government. You and I had this decision. We can all work together uh in a bipartisan biccameal uh fashion to get this done for America because if we don't our competition is going to get there and I believe in American excellence.
▶ 0:58:38I know everyone including yourself and the wonderful men and women behi behind you have the same thoughts. So in that regard, uh thank you and I'm with you. Uh a few quick questions. Um what are the early milestones or successes uh that DOE is tracking for the Genesis mission? First of all, uh, Congressman, I want to just thank you for your leadership supporting, uh, not only Oakidge, uh, but the national laboratories and your passion for them.
▶ 0:59:08Uh, it makes a world of a difference. The first milestones we have is we're very focused and we're already working on making extraordinary progress on the platform build. That means ensuring that we secure access to uh high performance computing and AI supercomputing capacity that we build the best of the AI models that our country has to offer and bring them into the realm of science and engineering.
▶ 0:59:34We are already you know in very short four weeks six weeks uh that we've been working on this in earnest there's a dedicated team by the way we operate with scientists and engineers across the different laboratories working together building every day together these platforms so that is the first thing it's a demonstration of workflow and just to give you an example we have workflows already that allows a scientist to uh trigger a question the workflow automatically provisions time in a supercomput
▶ 1:00:05waits for the results, analyzes the results. Once it does that, triggers an experiment, the experiment gets conducted, it gets analyzed and the feedback continues. This aspect of these workflows enabled by AI literally was like science fiction. I've been a computer scientist a long time in my life and it was just impossible that we could do this. So that's first step platform build that allows us an environment to collaborate.
▶ 1:00:31Well, thank you. Uh, in my waning seconds, I do want to invite everyone at four o'clock today, my distinguished colleague from Illinois, Mr. Foster, and I, we are the co-chairs. I'm the Republican, he's the Democrat of the science, I'm sorry, of the National Labs Caucus. Uh, we will be with all our national labs director. And, uh, Mr. Chairman, this too will be the topic dour. So, thank you for the hearing. Thank you for participation.
▶ 1:00:58again an unprecedented opportunity for us uh in government to work with academia, philanthropy and uh and of course industry critically important to get it done for America. Thank you and I yield
▶ 1:01:12Thank you. I'd like to recognize the gentleoman from Oregon, Miss Ponamichi.
▶ 1:01:18Thank you very much, Chair Babin, Ranking Member Lafrren and Dr. Gil. Welcome back to the committee and welcome to the national lab directors who are here today. We certainly appreciate your work. Uh the department's genesis mission outlines an ambitious vision for American science and energy leadership and it's a laudable vision especially the potential to lower costs for families expand supply and strengthen an already strained grid. But the department's recent actions are inconsistent with that vision.
▶ 1:01:46As ranking member Lofrren added, in October, the department wrongfully terminated more than 220 projects, including, for example, energy efficiency, workforce, and grid modernization work. Uh, some of that by the New Buildings Institute in Portland General Electric. These are projects that support reliability and affordability, not just in Oregon, but in the entire region. Uh and the department's budget request also proposes gutting or cutting the office for energy efficiency and renewable energy.
▶ 1:02:16Grid integration and building programs are designed to reduce home energy bills and strengthen infrastructure. And these cancellations and cuts, they don't align with the stated goals of the Genesis mission. And if it is not at all clear, it is not at all clear how or even if the DOE plans to promote not undermine reliable and affordable renewable energy. The department canceled somewhere between seven and a half to eight billion dollars in grid infrastructure efficiency, community energy, and workforce programs and projects.
▶ 1:02:46Yet, it describes the Genesis mission as designed to improve reliability and competitiveness. So, Dr. Gil, how does the DOE reconcile these cancellations with the mission's stated objectives?
▶ 1:02:58Uh, thank you for the question. Um the department is indeed engaged uh through a project review um uh program around that. I have to tell you I have not been involved in any aspect of that uh program. So I cannot give you any
▶ 1:03:15I would have asked the secretary directly but he's not here.
▶ 1:03:18I I understand I understand. So I know that there's been you know public commentary in the secretary of the process of technical review and economic merit and alignment with priorities.
▶ 1:03:27What I can comment is on the part that I am involved is that in all of those areas on as as you know I was alluded to before the genesis mission by building a platform is going to allow us to give a foundation with which to pursue any and all of those policy priorities.
▶ 1:03:44So what I am focused, what I can tell you is what I am involved in is in building the infrastructure and the platform and the construction of a portfolio of programs including in energy in all of those areas that is going to accelerate our ability to impact that.
▶ 1:04:02Thank you. I I I appreciate that very much. But as under secretary, I hope you can take a message to uh the secretary and to the department. They told the awardees that their projects were terminated because they quote no longer affectuate program goals and agency priorities. So, um I'm asking if we can get uh analysis of what how the department made these uh how did they justify the project cancellizations cancellations and how the determinations were made.
▶ 1:04:28So, can you commit to providing the committee with the documentation that was used to make these decisions?
▶ 1:04:33I'll be glad to relay your request. Uh thank you very much that I appreciate that and the department's uh fiscal year 26 budget request and reorganization plan would eliminate the office of clean energy demonstrations and the office of uh energy efficiency and renew renewable energy both of which are central to grid integration reliability and efficiency. So how does the department justify removing these capabilities while claiming that Genesis depends on a modern resistant grid?
▶ 1:05:01Um it is my understanding on on OSET as an example that that will you know continue that is not being eliminated. It will be integrated into a different office and uh on the other ones I I don't have any you know additional knowledge of the
▶ 1:05:15I I certainly hope we can get that information from the secretary. I know uh Mr. Chairman and ranking member I was here on October 15th. The Republican colleagues were not. Uh so we we could have had that hearing. I also want to note um from an analysis that most of the canceled grants were made in states that Donald Trump lost in 2024. Do you think that's a coincidence, Dr. Gil?
▶ 1:05:37Again, as I mentioned, I just haven't been involved in any aspect of the process of the PRP, so I just cannot comment on it. I
▶ 1:05:43I I I appreciate that. Well, I do request unanimous consent, Mr. chairman to uh to enter into the record a report from Energy and Efficiency News titled DOE's $8 billion kill list hits major grid projects. This describes how the department's terminations would further strain the grid energy supply and Mr. Chairman, I request a unanimous consent to enter that into the record. I I ask unanimous consent to enter that into the record.
▶ 1:06:11Sorry. Yes.
▶ 1:06:12Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And and and as I yield back, I I just want to note I I served um on the bipartisan artificial intelligence task force. I'm glad Mr. Obernoli is here today, one of the co-chairs of that caucus, and you know, the the tremendous potential of artificial intelligence. Uh but we didn't actually pass any legislation dealing with privacy and security issues. So, I just want to put that on the table that as we uh look at the potential for artificial intelligence as the Genesis project will do.
▶ 1:06:41We still must address the privacy, security, and other uh issues that surround AI and and I I'm over time and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:06:49Yes, ma'am. Thank you. I'd like to recognize the U representative from uh California, Mr. Obernalty.
▶ 1:06:56Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Gil, thank you very much for your testimony today. Uh I think the Genesis mission is incredibly important and I want to thank you for your leadership on it. Uh first question for you is uh can you talk a little bit about the role that the Genesis mission is going to play in ensuring access to highquality federal data sets?
▶ 1:07:17Because to me, of all of the things in the mission, I think that that is the most important because a lot of people don't realize that the advancements that we've made, the scientific advancements we've made with artificial intelligence so far have only been possible because of the availability of those data sets. Data of protein folding, for example. The only reason we were able to use AI to solve that problem with AlphaFold was the availability of a decades old data set on protein structures.
▶ 1:07:43So that's the thing that's the most exciting to me about the Genesis mission is the way that that's going to catalyze access to these data sets. Can you talk a little bit about that?
▶ 1:07:52Uh I'll be delighted. I [clears throat] mean you are exactly uh putting the emphasis where it should be in terms of the potential. Let me elaborate briefly on the protein data bank as an example. It's an effort you know Brook Haven started in 1971 and uh with a set of collaborators. So after heroic efforts of 50 years, 200,000 proteins had been mapped using X-ray crystalallography and other techniques.
▶ 1:08:18Then because that had been created, it was possible to train a neural network to issue predictions of unknown protein structures. If you had the sequence of amino acids, we went from 200,000 structures to 200 million in just the course of a year. This is the kind of transformation and acceleration is going to be possible. There's nothing unique about doing this with just proteins. You could do it with any signal with any kind of data.
▶ 1:08:47But you're right, we have to have a very concerted effort to go discipline by discipline and field by field from astronomy to material science to chemistry and so on and create and curate these data sets. sometimes because we have them, sometimes also because we're going to go out and get the data sets using our instruments so that it can be AI ready.
▶ 1:09:08When we do that, we will take AI beyond its ability to do language and code to its ability to do physics and chemistry and engineering and that will change the direction of how we do R&D in the nation. But the data is the heart of the equation. So in our platform team, we have a team that focuses on the pieces of infrastructure and a piece that focus on models and there's a whole effort just around data.
▶ 1:09:36Well, that's to me the most exciting part of the Genesis mission. Um I have a little concern that I wanted to raise with you. Uh and that is the speed at which we're going to be able to get these done. And I I know it's great that we're sitting here having this conversation. Um, we're talking about moving at the speed of innovation, which is, you know, uh, makes it seem like we're going to go do things very quickly. Unfortunately, federal government sometimes has a reputation for moving at the opposite speed. And, uh, the quantum centers, I think, is a good example.
▶ 1:10:04That was something that's taken us years to set up. Uh, and I think a lot of us here on the committee wish that that had gone more quickly. H how can we make this how can we speed up this process?
▶ 1:10:17Um, I could not agree more. uh I tell uh the team all the time if there was one single failure mode that I see on this is that we don't move fast enough. It's it's just we just have to act like our lives depend on it. Uh because the delta on capability is not 10% better.
▶ 1:10:38what we are seeing what you can do right now with AI models compared to traditional systems you see accelerations of 100x a thousandx when that happens if we do not provide our national laboratories with the infrastructure necessary to do their work and if we do not change the methodology with which we conduct science and engineering and an adversary does it faster than us they won't be 10% better they'll be a And that's
▶ 1:11:09unacceptable outcome. So we have to do a lot and this I am asking for the help of everybody of how we work together on doing that. The aspect of partnering with private sector and academia with creative ways to move faster is an accelerant. But you also can do a lot and we can do a lot to be focused on having to deliver this.
▶ 1:11:32This is my number one priority and I know for the national lab directors is their top priority because it is the way that they can deliver their mission. But your point on urgency and knowing that every day counts could not be more important given the rate and pace in AI. If you don't keep pace of what's happening in a week, you're behind. I really mean it. Like it is moving at a pace like no other field I have ever witnessed.
▶ 1:11:58Well, let's make sure that we keep the lanes of communication open. so that we can work together to make sure that uh that we we force that pace of innovation to uh to move a little faster than it has in the past. But thank you very much for your testimony. I yield back.
▶ 1:12:12Thank you. And now the representative from our uh excuse me, from North Carolina, Miss Ross.
▶ 1:12:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um Dr. Guild, just to pick up on something that you uh referenced, our academic institutions, um you know that they partner with the Department of Energy through competitive grants and contracts for research, training, student and sharing resources.
▶ 1:12:37They focus on energy science and security with funding supporting projects from basic science to applied technology use utilizing the DOE labs for hands-on experience and developing future the future energy workforce. However, in this administration, support for basic research and for our academic institutions has been, let's say, less than stellar.
▶ 1:13:05and our academic institutions do not always know that we have a reliable partner in the federal government. And so what role do you believe our nation's research universities have in your initiative? And how can you assure them that when they work with you, they won't have their grants canled, um their professors censored, all the things that we're seeing in this country today.
▶ 1:13:35The core pillars on how we do R&D in our country uh rely on our federal government institutions, the support that we provide as a federal government. States increasingly also are important actors in investing in science and technology, the private sector, universities and philanthropy.
▶ 1:13:53And I have a long track record of advocating that the contemporary version of Vanavar Bush uh you know constructing uh an approach an institutional approach with which we conduct R&D needs to be modernized to realize that ecosystem and the university ecosystem that funds and supports science and engineering and educates our students in science and engineering and mathematics is indispensable. So I have a long track record and of working with them in the genesis mission.
▶ 1:14:22They are going to be a pillar on the execution and the success of this mission in a few different ways. One, we need to educate our students differently. And what that means is for example the increasing the amount of dual degrees when you study engineering or physics or chemistry that gets accompanied with a degree in computing and AI. And I think we're going to see we've seen the emergence in our academic programs of schools of computing that do these dual degrees.
▶ 1:14:50That's going to be very important rotational opportunities for our students to be also in the national laboratories and have experience there and access to infrastructure and indeed we do support a significant amount of extra mural uh research investments in academia which we are going to continue. So what I want to assure you is academia is going to be an integral part and I'm very passionate about it to make the Genesis mission a
▶ 1:15:14and in conjunction with that and finding the best and the brightest from all over the world to work on this incredible mission we've seen a severe reduction in foreign students coming to the United States being dissuaded from coming to the United States particularly in the sciences and I have seen this at NC State University. We've seen this all over the country.
▶ 1:15:39Could you speak a little bit about how important it is that we attract the best and the brightest students from all over the world to work on the Genesis mission?
▶ 1:15:50Um, look, I'm an immigrant. Like my own story is the story of uh, you know, coming to uh, America and uh, and falling in love with America and the opportunities and staying here and contributing to the success of the nation. So I'm very passionate about it. Uh I will say you know before I answer a question one one thing while that is without a doubt a blessing and we've got to continue to attract the best scientists you know to contribute to the success of of America.
▶ 1:16:21If you look at and we look at this very carefully in the National Science Board when I was at the time the level of dependency that we have put ourselves on foreign talent to support science and engineering is at an all-time high all-time high. And one of the obligations we also have is we owe it also to ourselves to invest in Americans participating in science and engineering around that.
▶ 1:16:46Yeah, without question including at our H.B.CU, CUS are land grant universities and several of them are also suffering under the new regime.
▶ 1:16:58So we need to invest in our own talent and allow them to participate in the future and again we were talking before about potential failure modes around that and urgency was one. One of the areas where we have a lot of work to do as a country particularly is in K through 12 STEM education and mathematics. That's not a pretty story.
▶ 1:17:22Uh we're not making progress on that front and that is a thing with that eventually all of us are going to have to figure out how do we reverse that
▶ 1:17:30Thank you very much and I yield back.
▶ 1:17:32Gentle [clears throat] gentle woman yields back. Now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Self.
▶ 1:17:38Uh thank you Mr. Chairman. Dr. Gil, you have laid out in great detail how important this is, how fast moving it is, what it the importance we will see in the future. We know the Chinese playbook. They steal, they scale, they corner the market, and then they strangle. So, can you lay out where those choke points might be so that we keep our research complete uh uh secure?
▶ 1:18:07Where might they corner the market? Where might they strangle like they have in critical minerals in other areas? Can you just talk about the security? This is so important. Please talk about the security for us.
▶ 1:18:21Yes, thank you. Um, so first let me uh address in the aspect of cornering the market because what we are involved right now involves a methodological change, a different way of doing things.
▶ 1:18:35If they secure an advantage of doing that ahead of us, we are going to pay a very dear price on that. So that goes back to the urgency. But let me address the question of how we're going to secure what we're building around that. So that is build by design. One of the things I've been very impressed at the department is how we run a managed security environment. And what that means is we have a fantastic intelligence team and country intelligence team.
▶ 1:19:04Security is built into everything that we do, all our programs. and the genesis mission everything from the leadership to how we appoint people to how we're going to secure with our S&T risk matrix that we implement to secure all critical technologies from day one is being built in terms of the I have top leaders in my leadership team for the Genesis mission that are devoted exclusively to this mission to the security piece of it and that involves cyber physical
▶ 1:19:35vetting all aspects of it we will do a part of it that is an open science endeavor. Some of it uh of the efforts we have are proprietary and obviously uh as you well know in the department we also do significant amount of classified work but in all aspects including the open collaborative piece.
▶ 1:19:54Security is a center point of it because we know what's at stake and we know that there will be adversaries that are looking to steal technology from us and we're going to do everything possible and we're very focused on that to prevent that from
▶ 1:20:09Uh good to hear because researchers tend to want to be collaborative across international lines. Are there export controls that Congress needs to add to your portfolio?
▶ 1:20:23and specifically Nvidia chips or chips along those lines. So look, uh I think that uh I'm not going to get outside of my territory on the balancing on on what that looks like, but but I I do think that there is an appropriate discussion happening what where the line is drawn and this is an exercise of drawing lines and learning from experience and the balance of that line drawing which I will defer to others is the balance of market
▶ 1:20:53access and without adoption of the technology you really don't have much even if you have great technology if it's not adopted worldwide it really is a problem but also not give unfair advantages to people who wish us ill so I don't envy the people that have to draw the lines I'm not in the situation around that but it is that careful consideration of market access and adoption and capability and who should have access to that
▶ 1:21:21okay very good and my last question is the cost sharing with our private partners uh sometimes this can be basically US government totally funded. We need the innovation. We need the partners in the private sector. Uh how is that cost sharing going to be distributed because uh we do we are in a asset restrained environment.
▶ 1:21:46Yeah. Well, I think uh it's a necessity. I go back to the number right. So we want to transform R&D in the country and science and engineering in the country. That's a $1 trillion a year endeavor. What that means is a lot of people with capability and investment capacity. So the first step is to you know send a beacon a signal to this ecosystem to say partner with us help us be successful on a shared mission.
▶ 1:22:11The good news is there's a lot of enthusiasm for that. That for example could take the form of some of the partnership goals that have been announced of building computing capacity in one of our national labs where the private sector is investing in building that capacity and then that resource gets shared to advance both the mission of the labs and the mission of the partner.
▶ 1:22:32So we're going to have to figure ways for how dollars are invested in a manner that advances the mission and delivers outcomes for for uh the American public. and uh but we need to tap onto that investment capacity of the whole country.
▶ 1:22:49Uh thank you Dr. Gil. Very good chairman. I yield back
▶ 1:22:54back. Uh [clears throat] recognize representative Selenus from
▶ 1:23:00Thank you Mr. Chairman and thank you uh Dr. Gil for being here today. You're the principal adviser on science and technology for the department of energy and you are supposed to advocate for science within the department and I'd like to understand your views um on climate change and if you could just stick to really yes or no answers. I have a a series of questions and very little time. So to start do you believe there are any pluses to global warming?
▶ 1:23:31Do I believe there are any pluses? Um, I mean, global warming can lead also to global greening of things. So, I mean, it's a complicated question. I know that you want the yes or no, but it's it's complicated answers to this question.
▶ 1:23:41Okay. Do you believe that concerns about climate change only exist because the news media talks about it?
▶ 1:23:49I believe that climate change is a real phenomena that is very important to uh study, understand, and act on. So,
▶ 1:23:55okay. Do you believe that the link between climate change and extreme weather is just nonsense? I think that's a complicated question.
▶ 1:24:08Uh do you believe that climate change is not a crisis for humanity?
▶ 1:24:14I think it's a very important problem. Uh how we rank and what we do and in what order we do things is obviously a debatable topic, right, of how we prioritize actions we take. Do you believe that climate change is a sinister tool to grow government power and shrink human freedom?
▶ 1:24:36Those are not my words.
▶ 1:24:38Okay. [laughter] Well, thank you. And you you are correct. These are not your words. Every um single one of these questions is based on a direct quote from Energy Secretary um Chris Wright. And um and I'm glad that you are being thoughtful about the way we look at climate change because um prior to you coming to the administration, you've always been a very thoughtful scientist in the way that you approach climate change.
▶ 1:25:02And I would hope as the the lead scientists there that you would continue to do that for the American public and this is a global problem and it is something that we need to take very seriously. And if we want to continue to be leading in this area, as I continue to say, as we continue to hold these hearings, this is a huge problem, not just for the United States, but for our workforce, for for the industries that we lead on, for attracting um talent around the world.
▶ 1:25:27And so, so I appreciate um that you would hopefully continue to be the leading scientists in this area and be thoughtful around this. Um, yes, your public comments left no doubt that before you came to the administration, you considered climate change to be real and a major challenge for humanity. Um, so I again hope that you would consider this um to be a a real challenge for for um the United States and for um our our place in in the world.
▶ 1:25:56Um, your Genesis mission website includes a focus on quote an intelligent resilient grid. Two months ago, DOE cancelled tens of millions of dollars to help Oregon utilities deploy smart grid technologies that will help our grid operate more efficiently and keep prices down for consumers. I hope you've told your colleagues in the administration how incredibly self-defeating it is to under undermine deployment of the very technologies you're working to develop.
▶ 1:26:26Since your confirmation, how have you approached coordination on these issues? So uh we've been very focused on the coordination of launching the Genesis missions which I'll tell you is not an easy task uh you know so the good news is that thanks to the leadership of secretary right uh we have been working on being united across the entire department on launching this because I remember I'm emphasizing that this also involves a change of methodology of how we problem solve so that require a lot of
▶ 1:26:56dialogue on all stakeholders about how we're going to work and operate as one single single integrated team. That's number one. I think second it's been a wonderful partnership also with the director of OSTP, Michael Katzios in and and so on because the opportunity on the Genesis mission is not just for the Department of Energy. It is also across a wide variety of federal agencies around that.
▶ 1:27:19So we've invested an enormous amount of time of building a share understanding of the moment of what we're building and how it will matter and apply to all the respective missions and offices in the department and beyond. So we spend a lot of time in that coordination and I think as you can see also reflected by the the great leaders that are behind me honestly I feel very proud of their leadership and what is happening in that we are united.
▶ 1:27:46it doesn't happen all the time that everybody is united on building a thing together and and it can uh have an impact across the entire country. So there's a lot of optimism on that but we do spend a lot of time in talking to each other and informing and aligning programmatic investments.
▶ 1:28:02Thank you again for being here. I yield
▶ 1:28:06Thank you. [clears throat] And um I'd like to recognize Representative Biggs from South Carolina.
▶ 1:28:12Thank you Dr. Babin. and thank you so much for holding this hearing today and I appreciate you Dr. Gil for um coming as our witness today and it is pretty exciting to have all these uh directors sitting behind you. So thank you for your efforts and and being present. The Department of Energy's new genesis mission.
▶ 1:28:33It's an opportunity to create a foundational a new program that will maintain American preeeminence in science for the foreseeable future. The announcement of the mission makes it clear that the 17 national laboratories provide essential contributions to this effort.
▶ 1:28:53As you know, the Savannah River National Laboratory operates in my state of South Carolina and has been working in the environmental management mission area for decades. They have developed a concept using AI that would allow the acceleration of cleanup at the Savannah River site and across the DOE complex while also saving billions of dollars. So, Dr.
▶ 1:29:19Gil, how can subsurface data at federal sites such as that of the Savannah River site and Hanford be utilized as a national asset to accelerate environmental cleanup, improve domestic energy production, and enhance the critical minerals and materials extraction?
▶ 1:29:45Um, thank you. Thank you for the great question. Um it is it's a bit connected to the discussion we were having before about when we were chatting about the protein data bank and so on. It's the same idea that in this case you're dealing with a different data set right with subsurface uh data. Historically, it's very hard for us and we spend a lot of, you know, complex computing cycles to actually take that data and characterize and extract meaning uh from what is happening.
▶ 1:30:13And because of what's happening with AI, we now have the opportunity to leverage those past investments to leverage data sets that were painstakingly collected over many years and decades and now utilize AI to be able to do calculations and do analysis around us in ways that was just not feasible for us to do before.
▶ 1:30:34But it's a wonderful illustration that you're highlighting of the power of the Genesis mission to unite a wide diverse of stakeholders in this case for environmental management and cleanup and ask the question of every domain expert. What data sets are so important to you? How can you use this new tool to be able to help your job to do your job better?
▶ 1:30:56And as a consequence of that, how do we move either timelines for remediation or cleanup to the left or how do we do things with lower cost that we could do before? So I think that's the opportunity we have in front of us and the example that you gave is a wonderful illustration of how people are enthusiastically raising their hands. It says we can actually leverage the investments we've made to do something
▶ 1:31:19Thank you. So the Genesis mission, it requires ambitious buildouts in the AI, energy and emerging technology sectors to secure American scientific dominance um which we've touched on earlier. So technologies such as fusion, vision, quantum computing, biotech and advanced materials will both support and benefit um from this effort.
▶ 1:31:48But but both the mission and the supporting technologies need secure American supply chains. In your opinion, how can the United States ensure that all levels of the supply chain from critical minerals to advance manufacturing are insulated from foreign influence um create American jobs and secure American scientific dominance for this century?
▶ 1:32:15Uh yeah that's a wonderful question and it's been a painful lesson right that uh we have learned as a country of building dependencies on critical technologies that in some way came to the surface in part in COVID and you know and other matters and all of a sudden that was a central topic.
▶ 1:32:31So as we think about the industries of the future like take fusion as an example I think we have to be aware of that whole chain from the very beginning meaning we have an objective we want to build fusion power plants but there's going to be thousands and tens of thousands of components right uh on that supply chain and and part of the exercise of creating technology road mapaps is to render explicit the dependencies on that supply chain and to ask ourselves a question.
▶ 1:33:02How much of that we can do in America? How much of that we can do through French shoring? And then what are the elements that it may take us longer to find alternatives or where we have dependencies that are going to be very hard to break. But we have to do that from the very beginning of the industry creation, not after the fact like it happened with semiconductors. Right.
▶ 1:33:22Sure. Thank you so much. And my time has expired, so I yield back.
▶ 1:33:26Thank you. And now, uh, Representative Fushi from North Carolina.
▶ 1:33:31Thank you, N.
▶ 1:33:32Thank you, Chairman Babin, and thank you, Dr. Gil, for being with us here today. My home state of North Carolina leads in advanced manufacturing and is home to two manufacturing USA institutes, one in my own district. As you know, DOE is one of the key federal partners in the manufacturing USA network, which supports public private partnerships focused on domestic manufacturing innovation.
▶ 1:33:59The department supports institutes that address energy industry challenges and helps manufacturers address critical topics like cyber security. It has come to my attention that the department has not provided its share of funding across any of the seven advanced manufacturing institutes for the fiscal year 2025.
▶ 1:34:24While these institutes receive matching funds from industry, the lack of federal commitment has essentially halted all activities. So, Dr. G given the Trump administration has been vocal about supporting domestic fan manufacturing. Why has the department failed on this commitment to this critical program and can you give this committee an update on the status of this program?
▶ 1:34:51Uh unfortunately I don't have the details on that but I will be happy to take uh your question and and get back to you on on where that is at. If I may, I would like to make a comment on the relationship between what we're going to do in Genesis and and the manufacturing closed loop.
▶ 1:35:07Because one of the things that we're very excited to today, if you look at AI, the way we interact with AI is mostly through a dialogue, right? Through a language interaction. One of the things we're passionate about is moving AI into doing science and engineering. And one of the things that many teams in the labs are, you know, really beyond excited is allowing AI to be able to direct like 3D printing and advanced manufacturing techniques to have closed loop systems of improvement.
▶ 1:35:36So anyway, it's just to say I'll be happy to uh relay uh your question back and and and see where we are on that front. But I just I just wanted to highlight that the relationship between what we're going to do in Genesis and also the physical world, the building things in the world is going to be one of the frontiers we're going to push really hard.
▶ 1:35:54Thank you for sharing that. So now turning to another issue that is critical to my district and to our nation's economic and national security, quantum computing. It is paramount that we prepare the next generation for this breakthrough technology which is why I am proud to be introducing the Quantum Leaders Education and Advancement Program Act or the Q Leap Act very soon.
▶ 1:36:21This legislation reauthorizes and strengthens NSF's quantum education pilot program to expand access to quantum learning opportunities for students and teachers across the country.
▶ 1:36:35By integrating quantum science into STEM education at an early age, we can build a robust quantum ready workforce that you alluded to earlier that will sustain America's leadership in science, technology, and innovation for decades to come. The DOE has been instrumental in building out the national quantum research infrastructure through the National Quantum Initiative.
▶ 1:37:02So, how is DOE helping ensure that the investments we make in research translate into a sustainable pipeline of students and educators with quantum literacy?
▶ 1:37:18I'm very excited about that direction uh that you're alluding to and I'll offer a parallel. Few decades ago there were a set of leaders that created something that is now known as first robotics and the idea was to inspire students through act through technology by building robots and competing the robots with each other and anybody who has gone to some of these events. It's it's a magnificent thing. It's an incredible
▶ 1:37:43I think quantum has the potential to do something similar this for some reason and I've been involved in the field for a long time. Quantum sparks the imagination of people. There's an element of it of mystery and advancement. So it peaks curiosity and students have that curiosity around that.
▶ 1:38:03And because for the first time ever now we have amazing new instrument these quantum computers that you can program interact and do things that you just couldn't do before. I think there's so much opportunity to use quantum as a vehicle and we don't need to all become quantum scientists and engineers. We wanted to be inspired into this world.
▶ 1:38:24But I I I just would encourage to continue on in that on that vein because it's not true for every field that is sparks the imagination of our kids but this is one of them and I think that that's really important and the department will be as I mentioned you know will continue to be very supportive on the educational front and working with our colleagues at the National Science Foundation too and so on on how do we inspire the next generation with with quantum.
▶ 1:38:50Thank you Dr. Gil. I yield back. Now, [clears throat] thank you. And I'd like to recognize the chairman of our energy subcommittee from Texas, Representative
▶ 1:39:01Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under Secretary Gil, how does the department's and the broader Genesis mission elevate the importance and visibility of the office of science across the complex?
▶ 1:39:14Yeah, thank you for the question. So at the high level sort of conceptually uh as I was alluded to before one aspect of it is aligning energy related matters and then their secretary for energy and focusing on science and advanced technology and innovation related matters under my uh you know the under secretary for science the office of science itself continues to be right uh a jewel around that and what I mean by that and and I really mean
▶ 1:39:44it it is the largest supporter of physical sciences research in the nation and the foundational questions that get asked in each one of those offices is what inspires us to move the field forward and to allow us in the context of Genesis to create a new platform to help those scientists and those programs achieve their missions.
▶ 1:40:08One of the things we've done with the realignment is the new office of AI and quantum and the uh office of fusion. And I just wanted to touch a little bit the intent of what we have behind them. So take for example the quantum piece and I'll talk about fusion too briefly. We have supported quantum information science for many decades and that will continue to happen in the office of science. But thanks to those investments, we're in a moment where we can create now technology.
▶ 1:40:37We can create quantum computers and [clears throat] quantum repeaters. And the intent of that office is to say let's make those capabilities real. Let's make sure that we're able to build those instruments. Infusion is the same story. We support fusion energy science. It's going to continue under the office of science and the basic science. But it's time to build fusion power plants. So the office of fusion has that northstar. Let's make sure America wins in building fusion power plants and that we win in that new industry.
▶ 1:41:05So they're complimementaryary and sometimes people say well are you doing it intention with the support of the basic science we're not we're saying because we've succeeded in investing on that we have the opportunity now to create an industry and that's what's the focus of of those uh offices.
▶ 1:41:22Well thank you for that but I'm going to get you to can you go into some detail on how the reorganization is going to is going to increase base load power while it drives down costs? Well, that's a little bit of a tricky one, isn't it? Uh for consumers and meets the needs of both industry and taxpayers. Can you elaborate on that, doctor?
▶ 1:41:45I will say a few things, but uh you know, I will let my uh fellow under secretary in uh in the area of energy to to follow up on that, but let me just say that one of the things that Secretary Wright has been so passionate about is that we need a world with more energy, not less.
▶ 1:41:59And that so you know and that may sound like a you know simple statement but it wasn't always the case where there was that clarity that we needed to actually uh do that and that we're focused on investments that provide uh you know affordable and reliable and secure energy sources around that.
▶ 1:42:16And uh so the core focus on the energy dominance agenda is based on removing obstacles and encouraging uh our private sector partners and when we have new innovations and new capabilities bring them to bear which the department has a long history of doing that. So, making sure we do a better job commercialization.
▶ 1:42:35Uh, but to be able to do that, because I think by any reasonable estimates, probably we're going to need to add like about a 100 gawatts or more of power uh in our country in the next five years to uh support re-industrialization efforts as well as artificial intelligence efforts. So, we have a lot of work ahead of us.
▶ 1:42:55Okay. You said you said that one of y'all's chores was to remove obstacles. You're not talking about Congress, are
▶ 1:43:02No. No.
▶ 1:43:03I mean, I'm just
▶ 1:43:04Congress is our partner.
▶ 1:43:05I'm I'm just asking. [laughter]
▶ 1:43:07So, I want I want to go forward. How So, how do you envision the private public partnerships between the national labs and industry expanding? You mention you alluded to that.
▶ 1:43:17As their capabilities continue to increase and as the Genesis mission evolves, how do you envision that I think that so so sometimes so I think there's two sort of programmatic ways which you can think about the private sector as an example one is in traditional efforts as a performer right you have a program they perform and and you do that that's one thing and we do a good job with that and we continue to do that but the other one is when a partner and a partner
▶ 1:43:47is different than a performer in that context a partner is about who has capability who can help us enable the success of the Genesis mission because maybe you have infrastructure or models or data sets or expertise around that and we need to be able to be ambidextrous. We need to be able to do both. And so we're putting a lot of energy on the partnership models.
▶ 1:44:12And I think this is an area where I again I encourage ways and creativity from all of you to help us uh do that better. But it is indispensable because if we don't do it in a spirit of partnership, we're not able to tap enough investment from our partners to help us succeed and frankly we cannot move fast enough. Right before I yield back, Mr. Chairman, did I mention that the National Labs are the spearhead of this event? I yield back. [clears throat and snorts]
▶ 1:44:42Thank you. Uh, now recognize Representative Sykes from Ohio.
▶ 1:44:48Thank you so much, uh, Chairman Babbin and ranking member for this committee. Uh, and welcome, Under Secretary Gil. Glad to see you here today. I want to go to something you just said. You said we need to encourage more energy, not less, which I agree. Um but why is it the prerogative of this administration to eliminate clean energy programs if we need more energy not less?
▶ 1:45:13Um well not not all energy is created equal. Uh as the secretary has alluded many times there are trade-offs around that and there are choices uh that one can make depending on the level of reliability and cost structures. And that's a complex question of what is the optimal trade-off, but I'm just saying not not not every electron is created equal and there are a lot of important trade-offs that one can make on what to choose and how to generate them.
▶ 1:45:36Certainly. And what is the administration's uh position on what are the trade-offs? What are you instead of clean energy, what are you focusing and highlighting? I think the the focus overall is on creating uh reliable energy sources that have a high degree of affordability around that and security and uh again this field is a field of trade-offs.
▶ 1:46:00So depending on whether you're doing something in a small setting or where you need a lot of concentration of power to power a factory the trade-offs are very
▶ 1:46:08So uh Mr. Under Secretary you are a scientist and most people are not. So, if you could say that in layman's terms, is it natural gas? Is it nuclear? Is it fossil fuels? Can you be more specific? What does that mean? And what can I say to my constituents directly? Because that explanation is not something most Americans will
▶ 1:46:28Well, I mean, you can look at the facts, right? Like the majority of the majority of power, right? Uh generation and across the entire spectrum, right? Not just for electricity, right? what for heat for industrial production and so on the majority of that composition is composed of natural gas and coal nuclear is maybe four or five% of the story we're very committed to increase uh you know nuclear energy and bring a renaissance around that we're very committed to increase also geothermal capabilities in my portfolio
▶ 1:46:58I'm speaking a little bit outside of my portfolio because that's not my area of expertise we're very focused on advancing fusion right and I think hopefully uh you know we can all agree that if we and crack that and make that happen. We would have a near infinite amount of you know energy uh and that would be a fantastic news uh for the country. So those are like some of our priority areas and I can speak of the area that I'm involved in which is you know advancing fusion energy.
▶ 1:47:23Great. And I'm going to get to that in a second but I I take some exception with what you're saying uh because right now energy costs are at record highs for many Americans and it seems like you're doubling down on what is already costing people a lot of money. So if affordability is in fact your goal, it seems like perhaps you should have some different objectives.
▶ 1:47:41So you know that Ohio has a strong partnership with the department of energy on nuclear energy and namely through the fision service power surface power project led by NASA Glenn in northeast Ohio uh and many in this committee maybe not you directly have heard that the road to Mars runs through Ohio. So for those in the room who are not nuclear scientists or fish and surface power cutting is a is cutting edge technology that allows us to power infrastructure independently and off the grid.
▶ 1:48:08Uh this project is aimed at enabling sustainable operations on the moon and Mars but could also be leveraged for more uh earthly applications. This includes uh military bases and even communities at cyber attacks or national natural crisises. Uh the Department of Energy's drastic reorganization raises serious concerns about the capacity to execute on critical projects such as the fision surface power which you said is in your wheelhouse uh compounded by more than8 billion in cuts to clean energy projects.
▶ 1:48:38So with [snorts] all the questions that I've asked you, Secretary Gil, how will the DOE fully fund and work together with the Department of Defense and NASA Glenn to achieve efficiencies and harnessing fision surface power while also cutting clean energy research and activities? Uh well, I don't think um you know any administration has been more enthusiastic about fision and advancing nuclear than this one. I mean, it's been a huge priority.
▶ 1:49:03We're we're quite literally restarting the f the fusion industry in America and uh you know including in the future SMRs and so on. So we're just very enthusiastic about restarting you know fusion power in
▶ 1:49:17Uh thank you again under secretary. I appreciate your enthusiasm and I see your enthusiasm but enthusiasm does not turn into energy. So again, can you talk a little bit more about why the clean energy projects that are a foundation of the fissure uh surface power project has been eliminated without enthusiasm?
▶ 1:49:36I don't I I just don't have any I haven't been involved. I don't know have any specific
▶ 1:49:40but you just said that this fissure was
▶ 1:49:42I was speaking about your wheelhouse. I was I was speaking about fision because
▶ 1:49:46Yes, the fision is excuse me you said that this was your wheelhouse. So now you don't have any information but you
▶ 1:49:52precise my wheelhouse in in the energy domain is fusion uh not fision but but nonetheless but but yes I I was just alluding to the point where we're very excited and enthusiastic about fision as well as fusion and uh and advancing that. Thank you.
▶ 1:50:10Thank you. I yield back
▶ 1:50:13like to rep recognize uh representative herd from Colorado. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Gil, welcome. What concrete milestones will Congress be able to use to evaluate whether the Genesis mission is succeeding or rather is drifting into some open-ended research initiative?
▶ 1:50:32All right. Yeah, good question. So, two things. Uh, on the infrastructure side, are we building AI flops? Uh, and what I mean by that is, you know, AI computing capacity around that. I think we have very good uh FP64 double precision computation capacity in our supercomputers. We have relatively modest compared to what we need.
▶ 1:50:55Can we quantify those in terms of like what that goal should be the AI flops or
▶ 1:50:59um I think
▶ 1:51:01or should we be doing it? I'm not putting on a spot right now.
▶ 1:51:04Yeah. Yeah. I'll be happy to get you a number a precise number on that to get back around that. But uh roughly speaking right I mean aspirationally uh we need to eventually get to have enough capacity to do the equivalent of couple hundred,000 GPU equivalents right on that order.
▶ 1:51:24I'm I'm not saying we have it all solved but I'm just saying as a northstar we got to go in a direction where the number of AI flops increases in the department because that's a capability we need. That's number one.
▶ 1:51:36What else? Uh I think the second one is on the data sets. What is the growth of the AI ready data sets that we have? I talked before about protein data bank. We talked about subsurface. Are we curating data sets? What's the size of them? How AI ready they are? Second.
▶ 1:51:54Third, are we seeing models, AI models capable of doing science and engineering and you can count them in either on their capability, right, by their problem solving capacity and there's many uh evals and benchmarks that happen today and also by the number are our scientists and engineers have access to the very best models that do science and engineering around that. So those three I would say
▶ 1:52:20time frame
▶ 1:52:21say that again
▶ 1:52:21within what kind of a time frame should we be looking at this? Oh no, we we I think we got to look at this. Are we monotonically increasing on a quarter by quarter basis on this and then the second component that was those were very sort of platform oriented discussions.
▶ 1:52:36The other one is another thing to monitor is what is the portfolio of problems that you're executing right meaning we are all talk about in AI for science about alpha fold are you doing 20 of them 40 of them what is that portfolio look like are you growing because that tells you that the scientists are adopting it and the scientists are using the new methodology to problem solve so those are metrics that I think would be useful to count on the platform side and on the sort of problem set
▶ 1:53:06side.
▶ 1:53:06That's great. That's very helpful for us as public policy majors to know what what does success look like and how close are we to getting there. Um can you give me I'm from Colorado. Um and is Dr. Verden here? Yes, Dr. Verden. Uh from the National Lab of the Rockies. Great to see you, Dr. Verden. Can you Dr. Gil, can you give us some specific examples of how Colorado based institutions like the University of Colorado, like National Lab of the Rockies, like Colorado School of Minds will support the Genesis mission?
▶ 1:53:35uh what kind of partnerships will the DOE be structuring uh to leverage expertise in in you know fusion advanced materials AI modeling and quantum technologies.
▶ 1:53:46So you know one of the areas that I would highlight uh and this may be a recurring theme because it's close to my heart but in Colorado there's a a magnificent quantum ecosystem. Uh they are great I mean both at the university and uh recent startups that have spun out there are fantastic.
▶ 1:54:03Uh so you know that's an area for example there are many areas where there's a lot of domain capability but I'm excited about what Colorado has built in that space and uh and I think that in as part of the Genesis mission because we have as a goal to bring high performance computing AI and quantum technologies together that's an area where there's a lot of domain expertise there's a lot of things that Colorado has to offer and the institutions there are to bring to the table so that's a good example not the only one but it's a good example
▶ 1:54:29excellent well we'll definitely keep us in Colorado in mind last question what guard rail exist to ensure that AI accelerated designs of materials and chemistry or advanced manufacturing doesn't inadvertently lower barriers for adversaries uh once the results become publishable or export controlled. I think for us is managing our science and technology risk matrix very carefully.
▶ 1:54:52So we go technology by technology and we make a very intentional determination of what's open, what's proprietary, what's totally closed and and I think that's a good management system that is in place. It's been in place since 2019. I think it's very robustly followed and we're going to implement that strategy uh for the Genesis mission and uh so it's not a binary of open and close.
▶ 1:55:16I never like that is what's open and what's closed and and to have the criteria of where are you putting each bucket and are you being intentional and all the scientists and engineers and the management system clear about what needs to be in each bucket. Um and you know that's how we're going to we're going to do it. We benefit a lot from the open collaboration but we know that there are certain materials types or certain problems that cannot be open and must not be open and we will behave
▶ 1:55:42Great. Thank you Mr. Gil. Uh Mr. Chairman I yield back. Thank you, sir. [clears throat] Like to recognize a gentleman from uh Rhode Island, Mr. Amo.
▶ 1:55:52Thank you, Chair Babin. And uh thank you to Dr. Gil for being here and all of the National Lives Leadership for being here. It's good to see you all. Uh today, 324 days into the second Trump administration. Uh is the first time that a Trump political appointee has appeared before the science committee, this Congress. So, I, you know, double down on what we heard from the ranking member, our great ranking member, who said that's unacceptable.
▶ 1:56:16Uh, Rhode Islanders, uh, my constituent shouldn't have to wait 324 days to learn why their energy bills are skyrocketing. And you all know that energy powers America's leadership in science and technology. It keeps the lights on in the homes of Rhode Islanders and warm uh, during this very frigid winter already. But I have uh a message for my constituents in the first congressional district. Energy costs are just too damn expensive.
▶ 1:56:45Last year uh President Trump promised to cut energy costs in half within 12 months after taking office. Dr. Gil talk President Trump has been in office for nearly 11 months. Uh are energy prices 50% lower than last year? Yes or no? I don't think there is any administration that has been more committed to energy production and
▶ 1:57:11So that's no trend around that.
▶ 1:57:13I I I I would say that's no. And and look, you're not the only person uh from the Trump administration who's invading uh the the promises that the president has made. Just last week, the president called uh affordability a Democratic hoax. But the American people know that's a lie and affordability isn't a hoax. They know that residential electricity increased by 13% since President Trump took office. So, how do we lower costs for consumers? Department of energy workers are key.
▶ 1:57:42They fund research uh uh on the more cost-effective energy technology, help lowincome households lower their energy bills by funding energy efficient upgrades on their homes, and help maintain and improve our grid. So, Dr. Gil, do you agree that the Department of Energy and its workers are critical to keeping energy costs low uh for
▶ 1:58:05Uh the Department of Energy has an incredibly important set of missions: energy, scientific discovery, and national security. And I could not be more proud to work at the department and each of those missions make America
▶ 1:58:18Well, that's wonderful. I'm glad we can agree on that. Unfortunately, however, your words don't match President Trump and Secretary Wright's actions. Before your confirmation, they proposed cutting up to 50% of the department's workforce. Tell me how it's possible that firing half of the Department of Energy's workforce is going to fulfill the president's promise to cut energy prices and half of my constituents. I'm not asking that question. We know it doesn't help.
▶ 1:58:44Uh the president has said that he has an energy dominance agenda and wants to expand all forms of reliable and affordable energy. Dr. Gil, do you agree with the president
▶ 1:58:57that the president has an energy dominance? Yes. And we're very proud of executing that.
▶ 1:59:00Well, then we need a strategy to match it. We need a strategy that works because unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again, the president's action, President Trump's actions don't match uh his words. And you know, the president says we need to expand all forms of energy. Yet, he zeroed out the budget for solar and wind technology research in his 2026 budget request. He says he wants energy dominance.
▶ 1:59:24Yet he issued a stop work order to halt construction of the nearly 80% complete Revolution wind project off the coast of Rhode Island. Thankfully the, you know, despite those efforts, uh, construction is back underway and the project is on track to power 350,000 homes in Rhode Island and Connecticut. Look, Trump's poor choices are jacking up costs for consumers.
▶ 1:59:47Experts estimate that his plan to force fossil fuel power plants to continue operating past their retirement dates could cost rateayers over $3 billion a year in 2028. This is not a strategy. This is not the right policy. Dr. Gil, do you agree that discovering new, more efficient ways to generate, store, and transport electricity will help lower energy costs for Americans? Yes or no?
▶ 2:00:12Look, I'm here today to testify on how we are going to build the most powerful capability that had to allow us.
▶ 2:00:22I'm going to reclaim my time there. I'm If you want to do that, you need the personnel. You need a strategy. You need to not undercut,
▶ 2:00:31right, the the the uh bold vision that we can have for this country. And and I look, I'm not putting it all at your feet, but you're the first person to show up here. Secretary Wright was here, uh, I would be saying the same thing because the actions are making life more expensive for the people we serve. And that's far more important than the agenda of a president.
▶ 2:00:53And so I uh encourage you to take this scientific leadership, the the work that you've done, the the ability you possess, and drive us to a more affordable future. With that, I yield back.
▶ 2:01:06Now recognize a gentleman from Florida, Mr. Franklin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Gil. Good to see you again. Thank you for spending time with us this morning. Apologize for my voice in advance. Uh Genesis mission is very exciting. I'm thrilled. Uh that couldn't be coming at a better time uh in the in the country's history. Now, uh like Mr. Fleshman who spoke earlier, I have the privilege of serving on SST as an authorizer, but also as an appropriator on energy and water.
▶ 2:01:31So, uh, in that spirit, I'm eager to learn, um, what you need from Congress and how we can effectively manage taxpayer dollars responsibly and effectively. So, uh, with that, a question regarding lines of responsibility with this project. Uh, which DOE office or or is it yourself? Uh, who who's going to serve as a single accountable program integrator for Genesis and what authorities do that does that office have to direct or veto duplicative initiatives across DOE enterprise?
▶ 2:01:59Um so I have been appointed by Secretary Wright and consistent with the executive order to serve as the director of the Genesis mission.
▶ 2:02:08So um you can have me as a accountable
▶ 2:02:12Okay. So the bug stops with you. As you mentioned earlier, this is more than just a DOE initiative. Um how is DOE going to ensure Genesis activities aren't duplicating things that DoD or NSF or or NIST may be working on?
▶ 2:02:25Yeah, I think that's a very important question. So, so first of all is by ensuring transparency and clarity as to what we're building that we're building this platform and we're building this portfolio of problems and then through OSTP uh with director Katzios uh we have a wonderful working relationship we've known each other a long time and it's the opportunity to then coordinate across the different agencies that want to participate to avoid precisely the duplication. I'll also say one thing.
▶ 2:02:53Uh since the launch of it, every federal agency that is related to this matter has reached out to me and to us to say let's avoid duplication. Let's leverage what you're building. And the reason that there's a lot of credibility is because of the national laboratories because we have such great expertise domain expertise. I think a lot of other agencies are saying let's leverage that build. we will apply it to our our environment.
▶ 2:03:22So we may have to instantiate a version of the platform in our environment. The problems we solve with it may be slightly different but let's not try to build the platform three times or four times across the government. So we're united on that effort.
▶ 2:03:35Oh very good. Thank you. Um and I'm very excited about what we're doing in the in the realm of fusion. I do have a vision question for you uh regarding the nuclear deployment timelines. uh what specific barriers, whether they be regulatory, workforce, supply chain, are preventing DOE from accelerating uh SMR and advanced reactor deployment under Genesis and what resources or actions would measurably move those timelines
▶ 2:04:00Uh well, as you correctly pointed out is an all of the above in that case, but I would highlight maybe for a followup. There's a very exciting effort as part of the grand challenges in our Idaho National Laboratory on an end toend story of what would it take to radically shrink the timelines
▶ 2:04:18from design to full build of a nuclear plant leveraging AI. So I'll just put it as a teaser. Maybe we'll be happy to follow with your office and share what that is because it's really ambitious but it is touching every element of it right from the conceptualization to what AI can use for permitting and so on all the way to engineering design construction permitting and operations end to end a whole story of that and is really inspiring what they're trying to
▶ 2:04:46So that's in development now or it already exists?
▶ 2:04:48It's it's in development. It's one of the projects that is is uh in development now.
▶ 2:04:52Oh great. I'd very much love to see that. I know our entire committee would um regarding supply chain vulnerabilities. So which supply chain supply chain gaps whe they be software, semiconductors, critical materials uh pose the greatest risk to the genesis timelines and what resourcing from Congress would you need to help mitigate
▶ 2:05:12Look, I think there's uh unfortunately there's a list there. I mean critical materials, we've witnessed that. That's a serious issue. One of a portfolio of projects that we're kicking off is to find alternatives uh to some of those materials uh using materials designed assisted by AI that are more earth abundant uh on that.
▶ 2:05:30So uh but that's an area and look and this an area I've I've been part of this industry for a long time and I've been talking about it in semiconductors obviously there's a dependency there uh on a long chain there that reversing decades of uh offshoring some of that manufacturing capability is going to take a while and uh and that's a critical dependency right because it underpins quite literally every aspect of what we try to do.
▶ 2:05:56So, so those are two examples like critical materials and semiconductors that are particularly acute.
▶ 2:06:04Roger that. Thank you, Dr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 2:06:11Uh, now recognize Representative Rivas from California.
▶ 2:06:16Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this important hearing today with the Department of Energy. Uh, you know, I'm someone that also has a STEM background. I'm an electrical engineer, also trained at MIT. Like you, uh, I understand the importance of funding research programs, protecting scientific integrity, and continuing to innovate in our country. However, the Trump administration has waged a non-stop war on science.
▶ 2:06:44Instead of respecting science, this administration has attacked scientific integrity, research, and development, and made draconian cuts to keep programs and projects. Um, under your leadership, DOE has terminated billions of dollars in projects affecting businesses and communities across the country this year.
▶ 2:07:05While the first major set of cancellations in May occurred before your confirmation, the much larger October terminations occurred after you joined the department. It appears that these decisions were just cold, calculated political decisions that the department did with little regard for how it would impact our nation's scientific integrity or energy affordability.
▶ 2:07:29Nearly all the October awards were from states that did not vote for Donald Trump with 79 of these project cancellations coming from my home state of California. The highly political process leading to these terminations was a total departure from the standard independent and merit-based review that we expect from the Department of Energy.
▶ 2:07:54Uh, as the under secretary of science, do you rely on qualified and experienced scientists in innovation, infrastructure, AI, science and technology in their expertise to assist the nation in advancements and research?
▶ 2:08:11Um, absolutely do. So, the construction of the Genesis mission, every aspect of it is is led by the extraordinary scientists and engineers and program officers that we have and we rely on that expertise of course. Yeah. Very important. Yeah.
▶ 2:08:25So would you trust the expertise of 1900 scientists from renowned institutions like the National Academy of Sciences, Yale, MIT, Harvard, the Carnegie Institution for Science, who because of the Trump administration's actions say that a climate of fear has descended on the research community.
▶ 2:08:44Researchers afraid of losing their funding or job security are removing their names from publications, abandoning studies, and rewriting grant proposals and papers to remove scientifically accurate terms such as climate change that agencies are flagging as objectable.
▶ 2:09:03What I can share with you is the enthusiasm. I mean today we had the 17 lab directors here and uh the enthusiasm that people in the community have and uh on applying and building what we're going to create in Genesis mission to help them do their science better and to do engineering and I think that that should not be lost. We are in a very special moment where there's a real inflection point on how science and technology going to be practiced.
▶ 2:09:29I think the purpose of today's hearing is to understand how urgent and important that is and just how motivated and united we are actually across the department and the community and I would say beyond right in my conversations with industry with academic leaders uh this is a huge priority across the country and and that enthusiasm is what I want to be able to transmit is what we're going to create and what we're going to build and what we're going to deliver and I think it will come in the test of time I'm convinced that people will come back and realize
▶ 2:09:59that that was a before and an after of how we practice science and engineering in our country for the better.
▶ 2:10:06I just want to make sure that you're aware of this concern. You know, like I mentioned, these 1900 scientists that are concerned about the direction um that the department, not just your department, but science research in the United States, you know, we're losing scientists to other countries because of the administration's actions. And I'm concerned, you know, I grew up um in a country where science and tech, we were the leaders in science and technology.
▶ 2:10:32When I was in undergraduate in engineering, uh we were proud of that and I want that to remain I want us to remain the that leader this to remain the leader.
▶ 2:10:44I could you're not going to find a person that is more proud of the science and technology ecosystem uh of America. Uh we are the leaders in that space. is a contested space where there's a lot of people like challenging for that leadership and what we are doing with the genesis mission
▶ 2:11:01is to lay the foundation and build it and deliver outcomes that will ensure
▶ 2:11:07I understand but I think actions speak louder than words and this administration and the department of energy are helping to ensure that instead of leading the world we're ignoring facts punishing hardworking businesses and departing from the independent meritbased view we expect of the scientific community. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:11:29I'd like to recognize the gentleman [clears throat] from uh Florida, Mr.
▶ 2:11:35Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for this meeting. Appreciate it. Uh doc Dr. Dr. Gil, what uh guard rails is DOE putting in place to ensure that the AIA systems developed under the Genesis mission uh provide reliable, verifiable scientific results, especially as researchers across labs, universities, and industry begin relying on shared
▶ 2:12:06Yeah. Uh that's a great question. One of the wonderful benefits that we have in the Genesis mission is that we are anchored in physical reality. And what that means is that when we push AI models to do science and engineering, we have the wherewithal and the methods and the environment in our national laboratories to test whether that prediction or that hypothesis is actually true.
▶ 2:12:29So I think that that is uh a really special attribute of doing AI for science and engineering is that in the end reality pushes back and tells you whether what you said is true or not and uh and that basically is an implementation of the scientific loop in steroids uh to ground as well what we do because no matter how much we push and invest in AI if it's not accurately predicting how the physical world behaves is getting it wrong and uh so so That's that's a a
▶ 2:12:59virtue that we have. Whereas in other areas when you're doing language interactions and predictions back as you know that's very complex right uh whether what is being said is true or not and so on is subject to interpretation. But fortunately in physics and chemistry and mathematics and engineering we have a way to close that loop with I think pretty good
▶ 2:13:20So genesis calls for developing AI models. How we how will the OE ensure these models are trained on authoritative data and produced uh reproducible results across different tools, labs and commuting environments to ensure proper compliance.
▶ 2:13:46Uh what's going to guide us is is that the reason we're going to be able to do that is the quality of the scientists and engineers that we have. So there there is a supervision which is guided by the expertise of the humans of saying what is high quality what's not what's bad data what's good data around that.
▶ 2:14:04So uh you know unlike in AI you know in in like in traditional AI when you're just taking all the for example all the text from the internet there's a lot of stuff in there that is just like bad data and bad information and so on. But here we're going to be guided by the expertise and the scientific instruments of our experts in the national
▶ 2:14:26So Dr. Yeah, one of the one of the 2025 US China economic and security review commission reports recommends direct d recommendations directs the department of war to enhance its capacity to conduct uh space war gaming and develop realistic modeling and simulation of potential threats from China.
▶ 2:14:57So would would would the mission the Genesis mission be able to help the Department of War with critical modeling and simulation work needed that uh the report deems necessary for space control? And if so then how could that
▶ 2:15:18Yeah. So uh the short answer is yes. uh and we would do that in a collaborative fashion with the department of war and uh recall that in Genesis there's a platform and then there is a problem sets like a portfolio problem sets the one you illustrated as an example of simulations and wargaming is an example of a problem set that would benefit from the platform from the infrastructure and the capability around that and the way we would pursue that is in a collaborative endeavor with other peer agencies
▶ 2:15:49and we are already beginning those conversations with a wide variety of them. So Well, uh just one thing it then wargaming is sort of a uh more than just a three-dimensional effort, right? I
▶ 2:16:09yes, you are correct. Yes.
▶ 2:16:11Okay. All right. I'm through. Yield
▶ 2:16:14Yes, sir. Recognize Representative McBride from Delaware.
▶ 2:16:18Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon uh everyone. Thank you so much uh to you Mr. Chairman and to ranking member Loren Lofrren uh for bringing us together today and thank you so much to our witness for being here today to talk about American leadership in science and technology through the work at the Department of Energy.
▶ 2:16:35Established in 1977 in response to rising prices and a growing energy crisis, the Department of Energy has long served the American people through its promotion of sound research that follows the scientific process, meaning that it does not pick winners and losers at the beginning, but instead pulls on all threads systemically to find the best answer. Earlier this year, the administration announced that energy dominance is a priority.
▶ 2:17:02To accomplish this though, the Trump administration has been spending its time pulling the plug on energy projects, rearranging DOE, and on compiling and releasing reports that counter peer-reviewed scientific findings. All this is happening at a time when our energy infrastructure needs reinforcement and when we should be working to get all forms of energy on the grid.
▶ 2:17:23Instead, Delawarians and Americans across the country are going through their mail to find their energy bills have shot up sometimes as much as The Department of Energy should be strengthening its commitment to research, innovation, and modern modernization, not sidelining the critical work and scientists who have carried that torch for decades.
▶ 2:17:45As we move forward, we must recommmit to policies that put evidence-based decision-making and American innovation at the forefront of our energy strategy to ensure US leadership in science and technology through the work at DOE. Dr. Dr.
▶ 2:18:00Gil, in in a 2020 interview as the director of the Smarter Energy Research Institute and the director of energy and natural resources at IBM research, you stated that quote, "We as the human community have other big challenges that science and technology can help us address like climate change." End of quote. Earlier today, you reaffirmed that climate change is real. I agree with you. I agree with that. Today, wind and solar are among the lowest cost and fastest sources of new electricity generation available to deploy in the US.
▶ 2:18:30and DOE's own data shows that wind and solar help to keep electricity prices lower than the national average while meeting peak demand. I understand that the president's budget request was produced before your confirmation. But I I want to ask you about the decision to submit a budget request that zeros out wind and techn wind and solar technology research from the department's budget.
▶ 2:18:56So as the department's principal adviser on science and technology, do you agree that the department should no longer support innovation in solar and wind
▶ 2:19:08Uh so look uh at the level of you know I I'll stay within my purview at the level of supporting research and discovery on ways to advance a wide variety of forms of energy including solar and so on.
▶ 2:19:21uh you know that is something that is going to continue to do that uh as in so far as when there are large scale projects that depends on a whole complex set of factors as to the economic viability the density of the project or what needs to be done etc so I can't comment generically around that but if you're asking the question will we continue to support basic science that can advance and make a difference on all forms of energy because in the end look in the office of science we support things that are very fundamental like fundamental materials fundamental catalysis as an example
▶ 2:19:51as a process those advances then permeate to a wide variety of applications not just in energy by the way so that's our mission we're going to continue to do that and uh I love basic science because in the end over long term uh it turns out to be that you can support a myriad of applications that you never could understand at the time in which you were doing something uh that looked very esoteric
▶ 2:20:16I I I I appreciate that answer and those worthy goals But I I'm afraid the president's budget betrays those values and those goals. Do you agree with Secretary Wright's claim that quote wind and solar energy infrastructure is essentially worthless when it's dark outside and the wind is not blowing?
▶ 2:20:37Well, I mean, if the wind is not blowing, yes, the wind the windmill is not producing any power.
▶ 2:20:41But do you believe that the infrastructure is worthless when it's dark outside and the wind is not blowing, which is what the quote from the secretary said? Look, I I I I think the the spirit of it is in a grid like you have to treat the whole thing as a system and there's a huge dependency of all those, you know, of all those things. It's a very complex engineering system and it's just a it's a long it's not easy to provide easy answers about the dependency of all these sources and a very complex machine. Right.
▶ 2:21:06I I'll take that as you disagree with the secretar's remarks, but
▶ 2:21:10I didn't say that.
▶ 2:21:10But I appreciate I appreciate the answer and I appreciate that that I believe that you are are serious about investing in science and technology. I just hope the rest of the administration listens more to some of the comments that you've made here. Thank you.
▶ 2:21:23By the way, the the secretary is a self-described science and tech geek and loves science.
▶ 2:21:29Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 2:21:30Time's expired.
▶ 2:21:31Uh I recognize uh Representative McCormack from Georgia. Doctor,
▶ 2:21:36thank you, Mr. Chair. I I love this topic. I I it's never what the questions that are prepared for me, but the questions that are interesting. We want to talk about science for a second. Is nuclear part of scientific discussion?
▶ 2:21:49Uh yeah of course nuclear energy is a huge part of our scientific endeavors and then of course as an energy source in addition
▶ 2:21:55of course. So when we talk about it was just brought up wind and solar wind and solar. How many solar panels would it take to power one AI super center or a processing center a data center something like that? How many solar how many how many
▶ 2:22:14I can't I don't know the exact number of like how many hundreds of acres you know we would need to do that
▶ 2:22:19is there a parabolic energy consumption going on in America right now a parabolic increase in energy consumption
▶ 2:22:26it's yeah I mean we yeah
▶ 2:22:27absolutely right that's
▶ 2:22:29double the need of what we have
▶ 2:22:30is that going to go away
▶ 2:22:32of course not so I want to have a real discussion instead of fabricated one based on carbon emissions which are going to happen one way or another now it's interesting a a Democrat that physicist who wrote a very good book called Unsettled named Kunan who was on Obama's climate control panel wrote a very good book on science and how we've warped science into something is not that we we're do we're paying universities to do studies without peer-reviewed science that's talking about global warming that are not accurate.
▶ 2:23:02We could talk about how many hurricanes they are. we have fewer. The impact on human society and life in general, if it's a negative or positive, whether we can stop it, what kind of cycle we're on, that's science. But when we warp science and we try to pretend like we know what we're talking about based on on inconclusive studies, that's not an honest discussion.
▶ 2:23:24It is my belief and I want to know if it's your belief if that we cannot power the future of America without nuclear energy as the primary source of really exponentially increasing energy production. Would you agree?
▶ 2:23:37I think nuclear today represents I think four or 5% around that like uh we talking about the future double the future. Yeah, we would like to increase it both nuclear and and fusion as well. Is it realistic to think that you're going to increase exponentially power production which we need which we can't avoid if we're going to be competitive with the world market without nuclear
▶ 2:23:58I think nuclear is an essential element of our power uh ecosystem
▶ 2:24:02I agree I'm not against solar I'm not against wind but when I look about the realities the impact the cleanest energy source the biggest energy of course Georgia leads the way we're the only state in America that has actually produced power plants in last several decades, but we're way behind because we've had people throw roadblocks in there.
▶ 2:24:22We we think we can close down clean coal, we can close down natural gas, we can do other things that are somehow or another, we're going to get down to living in teepee and and cooking our our fires somehow without even uh burning wood to produce energy. It just doesn't make sense. I want to have a reality check on this. I think modular reactors, the security, plugging in old nuclearpowered ships into the grid instead of scuttling them.
▶ 2:24:48I want to have a real conversation about the future of science and how we can recondition nuclear waste into something actually usable again. That's real science. That's actually addressing carbon science too if they want to. But let's have a reality check when we talk about all the energy sources and the carbon production, how it impacts the world. We outsource rare earth minerals to China. If we insourced it, it would be much cleaner.
▶ 2:25:14We're going to consume the same amount regardless, but we don't have an honest conversation. We'd rather regulate it here, let somebody else do it, have them control our future, and at the same time do it with more pollution.
▶ 2:25:28that's the dishonest conversation I think we're having from the other side of the aisle. Would you agree? You know, I think uh I you given the example that when we offshore production of an item that in the end we're going to purchase and through the process of offshoring ends up being produced um you know generating uh more pollution and emissions and so on uh than what we were doing uh we're making everything
▶ 2:25:54Around that. So, so sometimes it is it is the case here and in Europe where we've entered in very negative feedback loops of de-industrialization and offshoring and we still want to buy the goods of what is being produced. It's not like we said we don't need them anymore and you end up where everything is worse off. Less employment, less factories, more pollution, everything is worse off and that is uh what we're
▶ 2:26:18So this is the take-home point and Mr. Chair, I just want to I want to really emphasize this because I think this is the important part that you and I agree on and which they the other side of the aisle kind of gets lost into the details on by producing clean energy in America. It doesn't mean just wind and solar, we are going to have an exponential increase. We're going to have an exponential need for rare earth minerals.
▶ 2:26:40And the fact that we outsource that to other countries, put our destiny in their control, actually increases pollution, increases carbon imprint, and actually has nothing to do with science. And in actuality, we've already done the science on this. We know that all the carbon and all the transportation, planes, trains, automobiles, ships is about 0.0017% of the atmosphere.
▶ 2:27:07And yet that's what they base their entire conclusion off of when they talk about carbon imprint and then they outsource it to another nation that actually increases that anyways. It's not a scientific conversation. It's not an honest conversation. We need to get over that if we're going to dominate in the next generation of technology, space, and everything we do to benefit this great nation. We got to have a real conversation and and be honest about it. And I don't think they're doing that. Thank you. With that, I yield.
▶ 2:27:32Gentleman's time expired. Thank you. uh recognize Representative Gillan from New
▶ 2:27:38Well, uh thank you, Chairman, and thanks to the ranking member for holding this hearing. Uh thank you, Under Secretary, for your service and for being here today. Um my name is Laura Gillan. I represent New York's fourth congressional district on Long Island. I immediately have to take issue with u my colleague, Mr. McCormack's comment that we are not seeing an increase in hurricanes and supertorrms.
▶ 2:28:01In fact, I watched uh a good portion of my district washed away to shore because of supertorm Sandy and in fact I think uh climate change is real and I think any scientist would agree with that comment. However, usually this tends to be a more bipartisan committee where we agree with each other and I was pleased to hear the chairman I was pleased to hear my colleague Mr.
▶ 2:28:20Weber earlier talk about the need for the United States to maintain and even enhance its dominance um in fields like AI and quantum computing. Um however, the dramatic cuts we've seen to research and funding for our universities is contrary to that goal and to the goal of the Genesis mission.
▶ 2:28:40So I would ask you under secretary to use your very powerful voice um to advocate to increase uh funding for these very important things to make sure that we can maintain that excellence and that dominance in these fields. Uh, America's ability to lead the world in AI depends on quantum computing and Long Island, which I represent, is emerging as a powerhouse uh, and a national leader in this space.
▶ 2:29:07And we have one of the five national quantum research centers at Brook Haven National Laboratory. Um, and we are the home to Stonybrook University, which just received $300 million from New York State to establish a quantum research and innovation hub. Just recently, I introduced HR6351, which is a bipartisan bill. I'm proud to advance with my Republican colleague, Congressman uh Jay Obernolultia of California.
▶ 2:29:34And our bill will promote regional quantum hubs on Long Island and across this country by fostering partnerships with the private sector and harnessing innovation to grow our economy. So, this bill will update the National Quantum Initiative and to help promote regional innovation corridors.
▶ 2:29:53And I'd like to know if your office will commit to working with my office about this bill and on ways we can work together with the administration to advance this important initiative, not only to the regional quantum hubs, but also to our nation's dominance in this
▶ 2:30:09Um, thank you for the question. as a New Yorker of you know 22 years. I'm also uh very proud of the ecosystem in science and technology in New York. Uh as you correctly said like you know Brook Haven uh is a fantastic lab and in quantum they do amazing job you know in terms of some of the new investments uh I announced just a few weeks ago the renewal of the national quantum initiative center 625 million and Brook Haven uh is a recipient of that.
▶ 2:30:37So I'm counting a lot of fantastic work there. Uh and yes, I'll be delighted uh to work with your office on the reauthorization and and on these topics.
▶ 2:30:46Thank you, Under Secretary. Um [snorts] how will DOE continue to prioritize investments in regions with existing strengths in this field like Long
▶ 2:30:59Uh well, when when we look at you know, let's bring it back for example in the Genesis mission as a context. We look at the world as capabilities. Who has capabilities? who has strengths in terms of either scientific infrastructure uh or expertise right or scientific instruments around that and problem sets that are great relevance uh so you know I mean New York state and in Long Island uh you know with both Sony Brook and Brook Haven uh has a lot of capabilities in there so I think it's in a good position to uh contribute to the success
▶ 2:31:29of it so so but yeah I think it's to continue to foster uh those strengths and the capabilities speak for
▶ 2:31:36well under secretary Secretary, in this regard, I would love it if you would consider visiting Brook Haven Lab uh with me to go and see how we can increase um our footprint there and and and additionally fund the research that's happening at that exciting space.
▶ 2:31:50I would be delighted to do so.
▶ 2:31:52Excellent. We'll we'll give your office a call. Thank you, Under Secretary.
▶ 2:32:01I yield back.
▶ 2:32:02Thank you very much. Uh, [clears throat] Representative Begage from Alaska, you're up next. You're recognized. Thank
▶ 2:32:12Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, Dr. Gil, can you describe uh just briefly in terms of human outcomes what the top level objectives of Genesis are? So our $30 trillion economy depends on in no small part in innovation like we are a high innovation economy that is powered by the trillion dollars we invest in R&D and the outcome we seek is
▶ 2:32:43to double the productivity and impact of America's R&D. So for all practical purposes, a decade from now, it would feel as if we were investing 7% of GDP into our economy and I would expect that a meaningful percentage of the GDP growth expectation and health benefits and national security will stem from that doubling.
▶ 2:33:07That's tremendous. Uh do you believe that researchers have a responsibility to answer the question as to what can come from core scientific discoveries that we may find with genesis? yes uh I'll put some asterisks that you know when we invest in basic science too sometimes we don't know exactly what's going to happen right or what the applications are going to be. Uh but I do what I one of the things I do like very much about the national laboratories and the department of energy is that it's very missiondriven.
▶ 2:33:38So therefore they pursue science in the context of what does it mean for energy or national security etc. And and both of them are necessary.
▶ 2:33:46Okay. I'm going to going to click us out a few notches. Describe Cardartesev level two equivalency as a possible outcome of breakthrough energy research. What do you imagine that humanity may do with such enormous energy access? You mean oh if we could harness all the energy of our well or the equivalent system the equivalent thereof right with
▶ 2:34:06I can't I can't even imagine like as even type one just even harnessing a fraction of what we have here on earth uh that would be transformative I mean look uh if you look at like fusion as an example it's just hard to overstate if we could overcome that that would be a civilization altering event right of what it would mean and uh our ability to scale out but in the end as the secretary always eloquently ly says like energy is life, right?
▶ 2:34:31and uh and our ability to expand dramatically or be able to harness an increasing amount of the capacity that the earth or the solar system or going beyond I can even think uh you know in the end we're going to be rate limited by energy right so so that would expand the possibilities of of humans in every way that we want to take
▶ 2:34:52uh agentic recursion carries the promise of uh incredible efficiency and parallel branching and the pursuit of accelerated solutions exploration But such an approach has the potential to outrun oversight by researchers and safety teams. Do you have any concerns about unbounded agentic capabilities?
▶ 2:35:09Yeah, we cannot build systems that are unbounded agentic capabilities. Those are irresponsibly built. But by the way, that's true in software too. Like just in general, building a recursive system without like you know the right feedback loop is a very bad engineer system.
▶ 2:35:22Is this something that that Genesis is is considering and thinking about as they're planning their roll out? Yeah, but we're going to build robust highquality engineered systems. We're not going to build like a you know unbounded record system that is just very bad engineering practice.
▶ 2:35:37Uh so fear of action by adversaries as a motivator for investment decisions is understandable. But do we have any strategy for how we will address adversaries who eventually make the same breakthroughs that we're expecting to
▶ 2:35:51to run faster? So the answer is is
▶ 2:35:54so we do a lot as I alluded before we're going to do a tremendous amount to protect what we're creating and uh we're building our security infrastructure for the Genesis missions from day one on every aspect of it on physical cyber personnel intelligence counter intelligence all of it but uh whether we succeed or not as a country on this is in our ability to get our act together and execute and run
▶ 2:36:20Thank you. And um just as a as a concluding remark, I think it's important for us uh to ask the questions, what are we going to do with what we discover?
▶ 2:36:30I think that's just as important as the discovery itself. And I would encourage the teams uh involved at Genesis to to to start to explore the answers to some of those questions. Um and with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:36:42Thank you. I just want to assure you that that that [clears throat] aspect of it, just to show you, it's like there are the twin aspects. There's a bill element and the what for. And that's the portfolio of problems is all intentional as to what problems are we trying to
▶ 2:36:55That's good. Great to hear. Thank you.
▶ 2:36:57Okay. Thank you. I'd like to recognize the representative from California, Mr.
▶ 2:37:03Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to start by recognizing my colleague uh Representative Beg for uh raising the Cardesev scale. I thought I would be the first one to raise that, but you beat me to it. I would re I would note that the type two is capturing all the power from the sun from our solar from our from our local star. So uh I I commend you on that reference sir. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. My name is George Whitesides. I'm the congressman from California's 27th district. I want to thank you for appearing before us.
▶ 2:37:33I appreciate people of your caliber stepping up for our country to take on hard jobs working on behalf of the nation. Part of that hard job is of course congressional oversight and unfortunately there is much for us to discuss on that today. I'd like to focus my time on the critical issue of energy affordability and how transparency or a lack thereof at the Department of Energy increases the cost that working families, small businesses, and utilities pay for their power.
▶ 2:38:01Over the past year, DOE has terminated billions of dollars in federal energy grants, citing internal financial reviews and conclusions about economic viability. These actions include cuts to projects like Arches, California's hydrogen hub, which would have built a clean energy economy across the state and in cities like Lancaster, California, uh, which I represent. These were projects that went through public vetting, attracted significant private sector investment, and supported thousands of goodaying jobs.
▶ 2:38:28They were selected precisely because they could contribute to a more diverse, reliable, and ultimately lowerc cost energy mix. Um, most importantly, the cancellation of these uh these plans drives energy costs up. Um, will the department commit to release the the rationale for cancelling the hydrogen hub projects in California and the Pacific Northwest?
▶ 2:38:54Uh, Congressman, I will relay your request around that. I haven't been involved in any aspect of the whole process, but I I I will take your request and get back to you on that.
▶ 2:39:03Please do. the financial and scientific analyses behind many of these determines determinations have been kept secret and utilities, state regulators and markets feel it. Um that risk ultimately shows up in higher electricity prices for my constituents. So I would appreciate that. Um I want to talk a bit about the Genesis project. I want to talk about model inversion. What are you doing to ensure that a finished Genesis AI model cannot be tasked to reverse engineer the sensitive or dangerous government data it was trained on?
▶ 2:39:33Um so that uh the hierarchy of that is depending on whether we intend that model to be part of an open science effort whether it's proprietary or classified and each one of those then has a completely different protection mechanism where we will treat the model in the same way we treat restricted data. Basically it's just not available to anybody that doesn't have either a right to know or a right to access around that.
▶ 2:39:56Will the private companies be allowed to export model weights from finished Genesis models? I've heard that they might be
▶ 2:40:03uh again that would be regulated depending on what context if you're doing an open scientific effort like we would just intend to publish the data like it's very standard obviously in open science work uh to make the data sets available the fact that they're encoded in a neural network it's not fundamentally different one proprietary classify that will never happen because we're not going to allow or treat look models are data too so we will treat it with the same level of access control that we take data
▶ 2:40:28how many so you'll have discrete subject level models. Is that the plan?
▶ 2:40:34Uh we will certainly have uh these are going to be hybrid models. So it's not going to be one single model to rule it
▶ 2:40:41I think the tricky part is that is that you're not going to have single models. I sorry you're not going to have discrete models. You may have mixed models and there I think you do have the danger that you could have inversion
▶ 2:40:53Well we will have a whole variety of models. Well, I mean maybe just to clarify, it's not going to be one single LLM that has everything, right? So, so there will be, you know, domain models where there may be a chemistry model that's very specific, but to just be clear, if that model is being trained with like say an open scientific data sets for chemistry, well, that model will be available openly in the same manner. But if that was trained with proprietary, we're not going to mix and match.
▶ 2:41:19We we are cognizant of the fact that like you said you can reverse data sets from access to the models to query. So we will treat models like we treat data right because in the end the way I always look at models is it's just a different representation of the data right you're just encoding it in the weights of the neural network and you're establishing semantic connections between these datas.
▶ 2:41:43So I'll have 20 seconds. So there's no back propagation between um sensitive data sets and private companies. Is that
▶ 2:41:52Yeah, we we we are not going to allow whether it's confidential data from a specific area or a partner or let alone classify. That's a whole other ball of wax. We're not going to allow that to go and flow in an you know sort of like an uncontrolled manner to a party that should not have access to the data. We know that models represent data. So, we will treat it like we don't share data sets to the people that don't need to have it.
▶ 2:42:18I have a few other questions which I'll submit for the record. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:42:21Yes, sir. Thank you. Uh, Dr. Kennedy, Representative Kennedy from Utah.
▶ 2:42:28Thank you, Mr. Chair and Dr. Gill. It's great to be with you and uh I you have my admiration and respect for being able to sit for long periods of time in one place. That's uh this remarkable capacity that you have that way, but I imagine you've done that for many tests in the past. So, thanks for being with us today. Last week, I introduced the Genesis Act to codify President Trump's Genesis mission into law. This mission is a pivotal step toward unleashing American ingenuity through artificial intelligence.
▶ 2:42:53Despite research budgets soaring since the 1990s, scientific progress has stalled in many respects. To beat China, we need a new focus. Genesis will use America's great technological advantage to dramatically improve our nation's national economic and health security, including biotechnology, critical materials, nuclear fision and fusion energy, space exploration, quantum information science, and semiconductors and micro electronics.
▶ 2:43:18While I'm very excited about the possibilities of AI and the constructive role the federal government can play, states like mine, Utah, have already been leading the way, establishing innovative regulatory approaches that power economic development while maintaining important safeguards. The federal government should treat states like partners and not adversaries as we use AI to power economic progress. Utah's looking to lead the nation when it comes to deploying nuclear energy. Earlier this year, courtesy of Dr. Dr. John Wagner, the director of the Idaho National Laboratory.
▶ 2:43:47I had the opportunity to visit the Idaho National Lab. It was a great experience actually. I learned a ton and witnessed firsthand some of the innovative research and practical applications they are working on to accelerate the development, licensing, operations, and employment of of advanced nuclear reactors. And Dr. Gil, I was curious, what role do you envision for our national laboratories, particularly those with significant nuclear expertise and testing capabilities like Idaho has in executing this vision? Yeah, thank you for the question.
▶ 2:44:14Uh, you know, as you correctly pointed out, uh, when you talked to director Wagner, uh, about the ambition that they have of transforming the entire life cycle of nuclear from design, permitting, build, operation with AI, it's really
▶ 2:44:31how it's going to change. So Idaho National Laboratory as an example for nuclear but it applies to other national laboratories that are involved on this this area of nuclear improving the overall productivity the safety the efficiency the economics of um of vision overall including also SMRs uh is going to be a big priority. So in our three buckets of applications of the genesis platform to solve problems in energy nuclear is going to be a big one.
▶ 2:44:59So nuclear, the grid, fusion, those are big areas where we're going to put a lot of energy, but this is an area that is a big priority.
▶ 2:45:07I was heartened to hear that you meet weekly with the directors of the labs. I think that's outstanding coordination. And I was also impressed at the Idaho Idaho National Lab that by July 4th of next year, they hope to have a nuclear reactor in the in the works. And I was in that chamber that could feasibly be a reactor within the next few months. So I also had a question about uh I'm a big believer in accountability and tracking. How will the department ensure that we're hitting the key benchmarks and maintaining an edge over China?
▶ 2:45:37Yeah. So uh we are going to implement so first of all there's a system of accountability with a single owner like with a single throw to Chuck which is me and you can hold me accountable to making sure that we're delivering do but we are forming a great leadership team with the partnership of the lab directors and the different program offices.
▶ 2:45:54We're going to have dedicated program management as well uh that we're recruiting some of the very best people uh around that and then obviously this associated with that we have very quantitative metrics of what it means in terms of platform capability the execution of the portfolio and uh we are going to run with a tempo in terms of an agile methodology of executing things where every week matters and uh and we got to see progress like I mentioned before on whether is AI flops or like you
▶ 2:46:24know the compute capacity going up the model capabilities going up the data sets that we're curating the execution of the milestones so the portfolio of problems so we are going to implemented with all the best practices and I'm going to try to bring all the expertise of executing things in the private sector but recognizing that the public sector is different for a reason uh but is still maintaining a tempo and an accountability to deliver what we need to deliver
▶ 2:46:50I think we have the right guy for the job thank you for being that way the last question is uh particularly western states like Utah, we will be key to delivering the energy production needed to power AI. How does the department intend to work with states to make sure we have the infrastructure in place to actually deliver on this promise?
▶ 2:47:05I think states, you know, one of the things I've been so pleased to see over the last few decades is the role that states are playing now in science and technology and now obviously with the interdependency of energy and computing where they are like the two sides of almost the same coin. I think the the policies that states choose and the capabilities that they build will be the determinant factor uh in enabling things like genesis to be successful.
▶ 2:47:29I I really believe it like we will not be successful without the states right because they have certain capabilities I mean whether we're talking on workforce or infrastructure uh or investments that they can make that are going to be necessary to move at the scale uh of the whole country.
▶ 2:47:44Thank you Dr. Gillan. Thank you Mr. Chairman for convening this hearing and I yield back. The gentleman yields back and now we go to California to Representative Freriedman.
▶ 2:47:53Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you so much, Under Secretary Gil, for being here today. I really appreciate your passion for scientific research and your acknowledgement about our challenges around energy. Uh, one of the most troubling aspects of DOJ's reorganization has been the elimination of the Office of Clean EM Energy Demonstrations or OED.
▶ 2:48:12Uh, in fact, OEAD was established in law as part of the bipartisan infrastructure investment and job act because DOE unfortunately had a bad track record of managing large-scale demonstration projects. So, Congress on a bipartisan basis established OEAD to take those lessons learned and to manage future demonstration projects in a more systematic and fiscally responsible way.
▶ 2:48:35It seems to me that dissolving that organization is questionable legally speaking and it will hamper DOE's ability to effectively address the administration's own energy priorities such as ensuring the success of the next generation of nuclear demonstration projects.
▶ 2:48:50So I'm wondering if you can explain first how the elimination of OSED is consistent with the law and secondly as the department's principal science and technology adviser can you explain how the elimination of OSED furthers the department's efforts to in the DOE's words accelerate scientific and technological leadership?
▶ 2:49:11Uh thank you for the question. I was able to uh check on that OSED is not going to be eliminated.
▶ 2:49:16Okay. So, how will that then coordinate with DOE and why was that announcement why was that even made?
▶ 2:49:22I I don't I I don't know all the details on the communication around that. Uh but I I can just tell you like that's one of the things I was able to check and it's it's just not going to be eliminated.
▶ 2:49:32Okay. I appreciate you that uh checking on that before coming here. Thank you. I want to go back to the question around climate change and fossil fuels. So, fossil fuels are by nature limited. They are a resource. uh they're traded and because of that they are inherently uh price volatile and we've seen prices fluctuate wildly over the years most recently with natural gas in fact.
▶ 2:49:54Um whereas renewables on the other hand are unlimited by nature and once their initial investments are made they be they're price stable and every metric shows that they lower costs for consumers who are already cashstrapped and do so into the future without that kind of question about volatility. Um, not to mention, of course, the climate impacts that are undeniable. Despite many of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle trying to deny that climate change exists, I'm happy to hear you recognize that it's a real thing.
▶ 2:50:23Uh, that it's causing uh, you know, has the potential to wreak havoc on our planet. And we've certainly uh, seen that talk to any airline pilot. They'll talk to you about turbulence and the increase in that. Um, so you know, I I uh you in a 2020 interview as a director of a smarter energy research institute and the director of the energy and natural resources at IBM research, you stated that we as the human community have other big challenges that science and technology can help address like climate change and I thank you for that.
▶ 2:50:53And we also know that wind and solar are quickly deploying at some of the most lowcost and fastest sources of energy generation available. I understand that the president's budget request was developed before your confirmation, but I was concerned to see the budget for wind and solar cut to zero. I'm wondering if you agree whether that is the correct way we should be budgeting and that the department shouldn't be supporting innovation in solar and wind
▶ 2:51:20The department continues to support innovation in a wide variety of energy technologies including solar and so on. So from an innovation perspective on an investment on core science capacity, uh we're going to continue to do that.
▶ 2:51:32But certainly we've seen that the the amount of the budget is no longer as supportive of solar and wind research as it is towards other kinds of energy such as nuclear. We've even seen permitting efforts uh be focused on fossil fuels and not on wind and solar. Um, Secretary Wright claimed that wind and solar energy infrastructure is essentially worthless when it's dark outside, when the wind is not blowing. And you heard that quote earlier.
▶ 2:51:57And someone asked you and you you gave a very factually accurate answer talking about the entire grid and reliability. And that was very clever of you, but it didn't really answer the question as to whether you agree that wind and solar is unimportant. Is seems like the secretary is implying.
▶ 2:52:14and that I'm just want you to reinforce whether or not you think wind and solar plays a key role uh in energy reliability and in cost and also whether distributed energy is important in areas like mine where our utilities have to power down because of wind events and when because of natural disasters we sometimes have communities that are cut off from the larger grid but need local reliable energy to run hospitals to run emergency stations. How important is wind and solar in those in those kinds of
▶ 2:52:44I I think a big part of the spirit of what secretary energy talks uh secretary right talks about is that all energies have trade-offs and there are engineering trade-offs and cost
▶ 2:52:56I understand that and that was your answer earlier but I'm asking how wind and solar then particularly fit into that I understand that there is a role for nuclear there's a role for fossils but it seems like he is trying to discount the role or say that wind and solar are unimportant or less important or in some cases worthless. I understand that the sun doesn't shine at night, but but storage works at night. That's the whole purpose of it. And as uh Congressman Whitesides pointed out, that's the best piece of vision we have available is up in the sky.
▶ 2:53:25So, do you agree with him that we should be deemphasizing solar and wind?
▶ 2:53:30Again, it's just so hard to answer the question generically. Depends on what context and in, you know, in it depends,
▶ 2:53:37Yeah. I I just cannot give an answer. It just like depends on so many circumstances, you know, grew up in Europe and I've seen like, you know, uh what has happened there with like
▶ 2:53:45I'm sorry to interrupt, but time's up. Thank you. Okay,
▶ 2:53:49so Dr. Gil, you can kind of relax because uh Dr. Babin had to leave and and then put me in charge and now we were really we're really in trouble. But anyway, uh I just want to make a comment. I really appreciate all 17 of the of the national labs and and I admire the way you cooperate and coordinate uh your activities and it's especially important.
▶ 2:54:14and I spent some time with Purdue University and extension service as an unbiased source of information and so I think you maintain that. So it gives me great confidence in our country and our ability to stay ahead of the world and for some of the comments you've made some of the other comments that have been made. So I really appreciate the the work that you do and uh I've had the opportunity to work with Paul Karns out of the Argon National Labs and he shared what all of you do. So very proud of you and thank you for being here.
▶ 2:54:44And now I'll move on. Uh Representative Riley from New York.
▶ 2:54:53Uh well, thank you uh Mr. Chairman and thank you under secretary um for being here. I understood um you worked for two decades at IBM.
▶ 2:55:02Yes. 22 years.
▶ 2:55:0422 years.
▶ 2:55:0522 years. Uh my dad was there for about 25 uh as a maintenance worker in the the waste treatment plant. So I have the this is you've gotten a lot of really important questions today. Um this is by far the most important question. Um do you know where IBM was founded?
▶ 2:55:22Um that's a good question.
▶ 2:55:24Endicott. Yes. I was about to say you're killing me, dude. All right. Good, good, good, good. Yeah. So it's in Endicott. It's my hometown. I represent it. It's a huge um huge uh point of pride for us. Do you know what this is by any chance?
▶ 2:55:38I was admiring uh you know what tabulator machine is that
▶ 2:55:42exactly. So I wanted to share this because um this is this is what we do at our best in America and in particular in upstate New York. We make things that make the world better. Uh we are really good at manufacturing the most important stuff. And so 1935, Social Security Act is uh enacted. And you think about that time period, this new program. Think about all the data that's needed to keep track of the social security checks, the social security numbers. And there's no computers.
▶ 2:56:12There's no computers. And so how are we going to get this uh this problem solved? And it was American ingenuity and American manufacturing that met the moment and solved the challenge. And so IBM in my hometown in Endicott uh we built this this was invented and built in Endicott. It's one of the first tabulating machines. It's one of the first computers in the in the history of this country. And without it and without the men and women in my hometown who built this, we might not have social security today.
▶ 2:56:43Um, and this was like, you know, I think about it, there's good jobs, really good wages, and on top of all that, just a huge amount of pride because we were building things that solved big problems, made the world better, and improved people's lives. And so, I keep this in my office um as sort of a reminder every day of what we are capable of and our promise and our potential.
▶ 2:57:07Um, I do think though over the last 20 or 30 years as a country, we've really lost our way when it comes to American manufacturing. We've gotten into terrible trade deals over the years, NAFTA, letting China in the WTO, um, that have shipped good manufacturing jobs overseas, and that not only hollowed out the middle class in this country, hurt factory towns like Endicott and Johnson City, the Triple Cities, it also really undermined American competitiveness.
▶ 2:57:35And so we're now dependent on adversaries like uh China for critical uh minerals and energy storage and uh semiconductors. The the global market share of American manufacturing from 2000 when we let China into the WTO has gone from 25% down to 10%. During that same time, China's gone from 6% to 45%. We're going in completely the wrong direction. And now China has 92% of the global market for critical minerals, nearly 100% for for batteries.
▶ 2:58:05And so I think we're at a real inflection point right now in this country. And I don't care whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, I think we've got to find common ground around the idea that it is time to rebuild American manufacturing because that's going to rebuild the middle class and it's going to allow us to compete in the world.
▶ 2:58:22Um, and for me, like I I'm not saying we need to go back to making this, but what I am saying is I believe so deeply in upstate New York's future as a manufacturing powerhouse because I'm so proud of what we've uh done in the past. Uh, Bingmpington University now is on the cutting edge of research and development. Incredible things they're doing there around energy storage, critical minerals.
▶ 2:58:46Um, what we have to do with your help is take all of those amazing breakthroughs out of the labs on campus and get them onto factory floors. Uh, we have the hardest working people you're going to meet. I just sat down with our trades unions uh last weekend. They are ready to build. The sleeves are rolled up, ready to go. And so, um, what I wanted to do, I would I would love to have you come visit us in Endicott, the birthplace of IBM.
▶ 2:59:12I would love to uh bring you over to Bingmpington University, meet with our researchers, sit down with us, and have a longer conversation about how you and I can work together um to bring good manufacturing jobs back to upstate New York because I I I I also think like folks around the country need to see Democrats and Republicans working together and finding common ground. So, there's that. And if we can find common ground on something as important as building the middle class and bringing some good jobs back home, uh would you accept my invitation to come see us?
▶ 2:59:41I'll be happy I'll be delighted to find some time to do that together and and I just want to evoke and how much I appreciate the spirit of working collaboratively on these areas. I mean this committee has a long tradition in science and technology matters of working in a bipartisan fashion. Um you know what we're trying to do here is something special.
▶ 3:00:02is not every day or every year, every decade that we get to launch a national effort that can have such a profound transformation and uh so very appreciative of that spirit and I'll be delighted to figure out way how to work together and visit.
▶ 3:00:13Terrific. When you come we'll show you all the other uh history and we'll we'll get you over to Bingmpington University for the labs. I'm really uh looking forward to it. Thank you.
▶ 3:00:21Thank you. And I love the prop.
▶ 3:00:23Ah, thank you. My staff had some real questions about it, but I'm glad you I'm glad you approved. The gentleman yields back. And now we go to my neighbor to the west, the great state of Illinois, Dr. Bill Foster.
▶ 3:00:37Well, thank you. And I guess this is the point where I normally encourage you to come visit one of the two labs in my district, but it's too late. We had a very good meeting a couple days ago here. Um, just a quick followup on this question of the uh office of clean energy demonstrations. I was looking at the org chart. It is not there. It used to be there on the org chart that we apparently is.
▶ 3:00:57So if you could just come up with the actual headcount in the past and and now what the plan is and not just for that piece of the org chart but for just all of the boxes on the org chart what the manpower projections are going to be which I presume you do for you must be doing for preparing budgets. Um, so if you could just do that for the record, come back and give us the headcount that you plan for each of these things so we can find out that whether or not we're in a situation like the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau where it was famously said, "Well, we're not going to eliminate it.
▶ 3:01:28We're going to turn it into five five desks and a telephone." Okay, we we want to make sure that its capacity is there, not just that there's a a place on the org chart. Um, let's see. There are a million things I could uh ask you. First off, you know, you're you're in some sense the last best hope for science.
▶ 3:01:48When you look at the when you look at all of the 17 lab directors, if they look uphill on the org chart and say where at what point is there no longer anyone with any advanced degree in science, you're it. Everyone above you on the chart, and correct me if I'm wrong, you know, has no advanced degree. It's the first time the office of of science and technology policy has not been run by someone with a science degree.
▶ 3:02:10And you know what we see instead are, you know, I gotta say, you know, currency speculators, real estate dealers, um, you know, crypto people, uh, venture capitalists who think that it's software investments as opposed to actual manufacturing. So I think, you know, that so you got a tough job, but it's really important because you're like, you know, you're the tip of the spear to try to protect science. So I just I respect what you're trying to do. Um, and there are a couple of things that uh, let's see another question.
▶ 3:02:40A lot of what we're trying to do is manufacturing. Is there anyone above you on the org chart that has ever manufactured anything? When you just think uphill because that's one of the things that I really, you know, we have we have manufacturing deals being built by people who've never manufactured
▶ 3:02:55I mean, Secretary Wright is a brilliant entrepreneur and build lots of things that involve very
▶ 3:03:01not a manufacturer. I mean, he just, you
▶ 3:03:03complex engineering systems for sure.
▶ 3:03:06Um, okay. Well, all right. But the the people that appear to be striking all the deals are people doing chip deals that have never built a chip in their life where, you know, you just go down the list. Um, it's um it's tough not only on the scientific but also the economic front when you claim you're trying to rescue manufacturing. Um, now you're going to have to for the Genesis uh project, you're going to have to make a bunch of decisions fast about a bunch of hardware and software to buy. And so I was wondering, you know, there are two parts to a modern supercomputer.
▶ 3:03:35There's the little compute engines, and then there is the massive fiber optics, the communications, and they're sort of co-equal parts of the effort. Um, and it it appears to be a matter of national priority with this administration to promote vendor lock. You know, that they're going around saying we want to make everyone addicted to one specific manufacturers's products. Okay.
▶ 3:03:55And that's really there's a tension there between um you know is the next generation of of um supercomputers that our country builds are they going to use the vendor specific um infiniband or the open you know multi-manufacture open standards of um you know advanced Ethernetss of various kind. You're going to have to make that decision soon and and how are you going to deal with that?
▶ 3:04:21Um the department has a wonderful tradition of actually enabling an ecosystem to grow and we are going to be consistent with that. So they will be heterogeneity for sure. I guarantee you that it's already the case. Uh and and we will continue to bring um novel forms of accelerators, novel form of networking technologies and protocols. There's a strong commitment also for open architectures and open source
▶ 3:04:44and and so one of the problems there is if you look at the at the open network standards for data centers there are Huawei and you name it Tencent the whole crowd is in there. So are are is there going to be any effort to separate it or are we going to be in the same
▶ 3:04:57well we're most certainly not going to build it with Chinese technology. Yeah. But if you build it with the standards that they are also building to it's a huge step upward for them and and so I just wondering how you're talking about
▶ 3:05:07so look it's incredibly important that America leads also on standard setting by the way in computing even though there's standards that we get to set through E and other mechanisms adoption is the ultimate standard yeah
▶ 3:05:19and uh and that's the reality of it right so when people
▶ 3:05:22but if we end up yeah going to open standards and it gets commoditized you know then we're not necessarily going to win the technology war Well, anyway,
▶ 3:05:31yeah, but but I just want to assure you that we are not going to implement a system with like a one vendor or something like that is just not our strategy, right? We are going to we we we are respectful of capabilities that we need to bring to the table. But part of our mission is also to enable the broadening of opportunity of technology options and we are going to invest also in those options as well at different scale of companies and different
▶ 3:05:55That's good to hear. The details will be Thank you. Gentleman yields back. And next we go back to California for Representative Isa.
▶ 3:06:07Uh Mr. Gil. Uh, you know, it's it's sort of interesting that, uh, Congressman Foster uh, very kindly talked about and I don't know that I'm the only one in the room, but I think most people have intended a molding machine or done coil winding or personally cut wire or designed uh, early AS6.
▶ 3:06:29But since I did, uh, I' I'd like to feel qualified enough to ask you a few questions about some And I'm going to start with one. Just before, quite frankly, before the 2020 election, we delivered to both uh, President Trump and uh, to his opponent a bipartisan uh, grid relian resilience study, a blue ribbon study.
▶ 3:06:58that General Wesley Clark co-chared with myself. uh I was a former member at the time and uh it called for among other things [clears throat] military bases to be self-sufficient and net exporters for uh colllocation of major essential items around those bases and particularly not saying data centers as such but [clears throat] we called them data hubs at the time and we were thinking a
▶ 3:07:28little bit less about what we're is We called for modular nuclear reactors because we believed that the only way you could get it done in three, four or five years was to place it on military bases and wave the long and arduous process that typically goes on in the private sector off base. Having said that, uh it didn't happen. It didn't happen during those four years. We're now one year into this administration.
▶ 3:07:58And although there are inklings that you're going down that road, uh Congress hasn't been given a decisive we are doing it. Here's our timetable and here's uh authorities if necessary to speed it up with the recognition that uh and I I just left uh the uh CEO of a company that you know that makes this the Snapdragon which is one of the low power chips that's entering
▶ 3:08:29uh the world of data centers. But at the end of the day, the forecast for the need for data is for energy is far greater than uh the capacity we have demonstrated here in the United States to be able to produce in one, two, three, four or five years.
▶ 3:08:48So in a nutshell, when will we see the beginning of the initiative that says we will keep up with sustainable base energy sufficient to meet the projected need for data centers.
▶ 3:09:06Yeah. Well, thank you and um clearly in terms of the dimension of collocation when you have a very large load or mission critical and the the need to collocate energy and the production of it clearly ahead of the time, right? But like the good news is that we're in a
▶ 3:09:21we're now behind the times. It was just I was bragging about being ahead of the times, but that was a long time ago now.
▶ 3:09:26Yeah. Yeah. I'm just validating your foresight on that but uh but uh but yeah you know look when you look at data center development one of the things that from a policy matter is the insistence of bringing generation capacity which could be colloccated or you know if you're working with a utility in a more distributed fashion but insisting that the load and the generation have to like you know uh keep pace and um and you know so that's a that's a huge priority and this aspect of collocation and what is behind the meter and what
▶ 3:09:56are what you know infrastructure of things that already existing that are colloccated that could be made dispatchable and could be made to actually improve uh the grid or you know and lower cost for consumers. I think that that's a a very important question. There's ways to do this. Well um you know if I look at for example in Virginia and Texas they have about 30% of the total data center capacity of the nation and they've more than doubled the amount of data centers. So I think if you look from 2019
▶ 3:10:24sure we could use Sparks Nevada too where Nevada thousands of acres are currently being built or in use. Yeah because energy is available.
▶ 3:10:33That's right. So there's been examples where we have seen data center growth as an example and uh and lowering cost around that. So again it's not an easy answer but but but it is possible to get it right. But I agree with you that we have our work cut out as a country to build the amount of generation that we're going to need uh commensurate with the desire to re-industrialize and
▶ 3:10:56Let me close with a question for the record. Could you come back to us with your expectation of if we were to use every major military installation, naval, army, and so on, and place significant modular nuclear reactors in all of the appropriate places with sufficient land and so on, how much capacity would the United States government create that would alleviate the offbase
▶ 3:11:26need for energy growth? what would be the base load that would that could be produced either to 100% meet the DoD requirements or more than 100% of DoD uh based on whatever studies you have internally. Could you get that back to the committee?
▶ 3:11:44Um yeah, I'll I'll relay your question, but just to clarify, you're asking and both the use of federal land to be able to site new capacity and to use the demand capacity of whatever that is being cited as a means to offset consumption that would have happened from the existing.
▶ 3:12:01Right. And Mr. Chairman, just to give you an example, Camp Pendleton had two 1,00 megawatt nuclear facilities. They are shut down. The land is there, the facilities there, the the trans the transmission stations are there and zero power is coming out of my military base.
▶ 3:12:23I hate I hate to interrupt this discussion with the times.
▶ 3:12:27Thank you, sir. Uh let's see. Next we go to representative Mlan Delaney.
▶ 3:12:37Uh thank you chair and uh ranking member and thanks to Dr. Gil. I think I'm the last one and I'm bringing it home. So, thank you for being so patient the whole way. Um, I'm going to echo many of my Democratic colleagues um uh you know uh concerns and also um unbelievable uh uh you know thoughts about energy and how we go forward.
▶ 3:13:00Um so I'm going to go down another uh line of thought but also have to give it up for Congressman Riley and our American ingenuity. Um and uh uh Congressman Foster really set me up for what I want to talk about.
▶ 3:13:15So my district includes a lot of biotech innovation along the corridor of I270 in Maryland with federal installations like Fort Dietrich and NIST and we're home to a big tech and bioscience industry which includes federal contractors working with companies and they've made lots of investments. Um, as I said, at NIST, we've done a lot with AI computing and energy efficiency, which has really furthered our US competitiveness and our national security.
▶ 3:13:43And I agree with much of what you said in terms of our investments into where we need to go with public private partnerships. I'm just going to say before I go into my line of questioning, I just want to make sure that we have a wide stakeholder of these public private partnerships and that there's not just a few global companies and that we really look at how we power AI and quantum and that we're going to need to have many different stakeholders involved in that process.
▶ 3:14:07So in June we had a hearing on the national security commission on emerging biotech charting the future of biotechnology and the commission made a lot of recommendations and one of the key recommendations is to work with international partners to develop best practices and standards for biosafety and biocurity but more large generally all types of standards and before I came to Congress I was deputy assistant secretary at NTIA and I was one of the handful of representatives that dealt with the ITU and other international organations ations.
▶ 3:14:37Um, unfortunately, our views were often drowned out by China in these forums. Um, even when we worked on things like open RAND and open interoperability with cuts to science and grants and staffing and federal agencies and also um, you know, our in our international forums, America will make fewer discoveries that really contribute to science and maybe even pull back from some of our partnerships.
▶ 3:15:02I was disappointed to see that the Genesis mission only mentions international collaboration once when it directs the National Science and Tech Council to identify opportunities for scientific collaboration. I think it's critical for our discoveries to have international bodies and standards uh standards um being shaped by some of our um own US companies and that we are collaborating if the Genesis mission is going to act as a premier research and innovation arm for AI.
▶ 3:15:32How do you see the US plan to work with other departments and agencies to lever the expertise you are gathering to increase US presence in international standard setting? Thank you uh for the question. So uh we're doing in sort of like layers of progress. The first was to unite the department uh on a shared mission on the genesis missions which we did thank to uh Secretary Wright.
▶ 3:15:58The next was also to unite the entire government thanks to President Trump and the EO and the leadership of Michael Katzio in OSTP to precisely this point. How will we work across the different federal agencies that support science,
▶ 3:16:11give more resources to more staffing to be able to do that as well?
▶ 3:16:15So, I think we've made good progress on that. There's a lot of commitment working together. But let me also address the international piece as well that that I think first which we're working hard to unite the country on this effort. and then and uh it's no easy task but we're making progress and I'm appreciative of the you know of holding a hearing today on this topic and all of us working together on this effort and we absolutely expect and need and and should also partner internationally with allies uh to contribute to the success and to benefit
▶ 3:16:45from their expertise and investments into the genesis mission. So, but we're just doing it in an order where it's like unite DOE, unite the government today. How do we all work together? And then also then how do we work with uh select trusted international partners?
▶ 3:17:01Yeah, I guess building on that and kind of what uh Representative Foster is talking about, I'm working on legislation to address the issue based on the commission's recommendations to help NIST develop biological equivalents of gallons and metas and and kilograms and and really trustworthy standards. How is centralized strategic leadership in research and development, you know, help the Genesis mission leverage these resources across our our agencies? I mean it seems like you're doing it but
▶ 3:17:29yeah well we're doing but I'm acknowledging that we're getting started so ideas are welcome on uh how to do that better uh you know we started by having a unified approach with a unified team with a unified leadership and now it is for all willing partners which we just starting this process with OSTP let's take N as an example they want to participate okay how do we collaborate do you want to contribute on the platform piece do you want to contribute on the data on equipment do you want to contribute on the problem set that you want to do so take Noah as an example.
▶ 3:17:58Hey, how can we use this capability to improve weather forecasting and weather modeling? Let's collaborate on that. So, I think we're going to do it. The spirit is to have uh an architecture and an infrastructure that allows a wide variety of science and engineering efforts to benefit from what we're
▶ 3:18:14I think that's excellent. I would just say it would be great to have some transparency in that and some input from some of our different offices and stakeholders because I think it's so important for our US competitiveness and for our national security. Thank you.
▶ 3:18:25Agreed. Thank you.
▶ 3:18:27Young lady yields back. And now we go to Mr. Subraman. Yam
▶ 3:18:34here. Say that again. Anyway,
▶ 3:18:36it's Zra money. I'm like money.
▶ 3:18:39Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, and thank you, Dr. Gil, for being here today. Uh, the question was asked earlier, but I didn't quite get the answer. Your boss, President Trump, has called climate change a hoax and a con job. Uh, do you agree with that? Yes or Um I have shared that uh you know the on the question of climate change you asked uh real phenomena
▶ 3:19:04or con job. Yeah I
▶ 3:19:05I have already answered the question before. Yeah.
▶ 3:19:07What was it? I don't remember was it a yes or no
▶ 3:19:09that climate change is a real phenomena?
▶ 3:19:11it's real. So you disagree with that.
▶ 3:19:13No I I didn't said is I said what I said like for me I can't
▶ 3:19:16it's a real phenomenon. Okay. It's not a hoax. So, because I'm concerned that this administration's cutting research into clean energy, u rolling back protections on pollution and gutting uh a lot of science that we can uh leverage to address this issue if you believe it's a real problem. But, uh I'll move on. Uh the administration also has driven out and either fired or driven out or rifted about 3,500 DOE employees and 39% of them are in the science and innovation workforce.
▶ 3:19:45Um do you did you agree with these cuts or firings?
▶ 3:19:49Uh I joined the department uh slightly less than two months ago. What I am focus is on bringing the best of our scientists and engineers 40,000 of them in the national laboratories and uh I'm building with the genus mission which we're all united in building. So we're excited about that.
▶ 3:20:04Did you agree with these particular
▶ 3:20:05I am focused on building the Genesis mission and delivering that capability.
▶ 3:20:09Elon Musk said that Doge was somewhat successful but he wouldn't do it again. Would you have done Doge again?
▶ 3:20:16I wasn't running Doge. I don't know. Okay. Asking the wrong person.
▶ 3:20:20Sounds good. All right. Well, let's let's get to energy then. So, we've been talking about AI a lot, but um AI needs um data storage, which requires energy. Uh right. And um we need a lot of data centers basically is is one way to um usher in uh more uh AI. Uh and your other boss, Secretary Wright, said yesterday that if um people want to lower their electricity prices and their utility bills, we should build more data centers. Do you agree with that?
▶ 3:20:47Um look, uh I think on this topic, like if we want to be sort of a little bit serious and detail about it,
▶ 3:20:52oh, I want to be very serious. If you look between 2019 and 2024 and you look at where data centers are located and data center growth and energy prices, if you plotted in a,
▶ 3:21:04you know, in an axis, it's slightly negatively correlated. Meaning if you look at places where like Virginia or Texas where they doubled, they increased 200% the amount of data centers, they account together as those two states to 30% of data center capacity in the nation. and electricity prices on those two states went down during that period of time. All I'm saying it's not an easy it's not easy I'm gonna reclaim my time. You're saying that you're saying that data centers have lowered energy prices in Virginia because I I represent Virginia.
▶ 3:21:34I have 300 data centers in my district. Are you telling me that my constituents utility costs have gone down because of them?
▶ 3:21:41I I'm not saying data centers lower energy prices.
▶ 3:21:44Okay. Thank you. No, but that's what that's what I was asking cuz your boss said that that they're going to lower energy prices. If you if you don't build in the transmission cost, building transmission lines, how much it raises the base load, you know that it's actually going to double energy costs over the next 10 years, maybe less than that.
▶ 3:22:06That does not mean it's it's not true that as a universal statement you're making that more load leads to more uh higher energy prices. It depends on
▶ 3:22:15That's not what I said though. But your boss said that we need to build more data centers to lower utility costs. That's what your boss said. And what you're you're saying maybe disagree with
▶ 3:22:25If you're bringing investment where you're building data centers and and along with that investment adds generation capacity by having a more a higher level of investment into the system, you can lower cost.
▶ 3:22:38Yeah. But who's paying for those costs? The reality is what's happening in Virginia is that utility rateayers are paying those costs for that energy infrastructure and that's increasing their utility bills. That's what's happening in Virginia. Uh I I would love for you to come out to my district actually. It's only about 30 or 40 minutes away and talk to people and they'll show you their energy bills. I'll show you my energy bill. It has gone up and it has gone up because of data centers. And we're bu we're doubling the number of data centers in my district over the next 5 to 10 years.
▶ 3:23:07And that's going to double, maybe triple our energy costs. Uh but anyway, you know, this administration said that it was going to cut utility prices in half this year. Um it's December 10th right now. Most people's utility costs have gone up. Um do you think we can do that in the next 20 days?
▶ 3:23:26I think a lot of decisions uh that were made in years past uh have contributed. But then why would you say you're going to cut people's utility costs in half if it's not possible?
▶ 3:23:38Why would your this administration say
▶ 3:23:39This administration is doing a hard job in driving energy innovation and driving cost down. That's the focus of this.
▶ 3:23:46But has it has it cut utility bills in
▶ 3:23:51okay. Well, let's take a step back. Can you tell me about how many data centers we currently have in the country right
▶ 3:23:56I don't know the exact number. Maybe you can tell me.
▶ 3:23:58Okay. It's around 5,000. Um do you know about um how much energy we need to power those data centers like ballpark?
▶ 3:24:06Uh I know it's probably like 5% of like uh total capacity of electricity system. Uh I don't know what it's probably maybe 30 40 gawatts or something like that. What is the number? I don't know.
▶ 3:24:17Well, do you know about how many data centers you think we'll need to build in the next 5 to 10 years to power AI?
▶ 3:24:23I mean look that that ranges a great deal. There's like$2 trillion dollars of announced projects with 200 gawatt. I don't know that all of those are real.
▶ 3:24:29It sounds like we should have a conversation about how we're going to do data center infrastructure in this country. It sounds like that conversation is not happening to where it needs to be. So I invite you to come to my district. The
▶ 3:24:41gentleman's time is expired.
▶ 3:24:42Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 3:24:44Thank you. So in closing uh you know I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony. I really do appreciate that. and for the members for their questions and the record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and written questions from members. And this hearing is a journal
▶ 3:25:34I told you. I I