▶ 0:08:02Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.
▶ 0:09:50The subcommittee on the Middle East and North Africa will come to order. The purpose of this hearing is to examine the historical, political, and strategic context of Judea and Samaria. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. I want to begin by thanking my colleagues for being here today and our witnesses for taking the time to share their expertise with the committee.
▶ 0:10:14Your perspectives are invaluable as we continue examining one of the most complex issues in USIsrael relations. In September, this subcommittee held a roundt with Ambassador Huckabe to hear directly from the administration about its current efforts in Israel and its perspective on the evolving landscape in Judea and Samaria. That discussion provided valuable context on the policy challenges before us.
▶ 0:10:40Today's hearing builds on that foundation by taking a step back and focusing on the historical, legal, and strategic dynamics that shaped this issue. Judea and Samaria remain central to decades of diplomatic debate, negotiations, and regional tension.
▶ 0:10:57the region's modern history, from its role in the British mandate to the unresolved sovereignty questions in 1948 to the Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967, including the displacement of Jewish communities during that period continues to shape legal interpretations, security considerations, and international discourse today. In recent months, international discussions about the future of these territories have accelerated.
▶ 0:11:24To understand this, we must also understand the historical context that led us to this point. Understanding the daily realities for communities in these areas, the security challenges they face, and the implications for Israel's broader defense posture is essential to evaluating US engagement and future policy discussions. Our witnesses today bring deep historical, legal, and strategic knowledge.
▶ 0:11:50Their testimony will help clarify key facts, illuminate long-standing debates, and provide members with the nuanced understanding needed to assess US policy moving forward. Ultimately, our goal is to ensure that American policy is rooted in facts, strengthen our relationship with Israel, and support long-term stability and security across the Middle East. I now recognize the ranking member from California, Representative Sherman, for an opening statement.
▶ 0:12:22Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I should explain that I am the acting ranking member until the uh gentle lady from Florida deals with some uh some issues. Uh and those of you on the committee know that I've been here for 29 years. I've been chair of ranking member of a variety of different subcommittees and I look forward to filling in in this role.
▶ 0:12:46As to uh this hearing um we can start with a uh map of Judea and Samaria and we will see that during most of our history the Jewish people were an inland people. Yes indeed. Hebron was part of the kingdom of Judea.
▶ 0:13:10But Tel Aviv wasn't except when Israel or Judea reached its maximum extent as it uh uh did at various times in its If we turn to any nationality and say you define your borders based on the maximum you ever controlled in history, then Mongolia would control half of the world. The Greeks would control Anatolia.
▶ 0:13:36The Germans would be restored to East Prussia and the Chumash would own Myando in the San Fernando Valley. The fact of the matter is that uh modern Zionism focused more on the coastal plane than the ancient Israelites or the ancient kingdom of Judea. That the borders in 2025 should be drafted based on where people live now.
▶ 0:14:04The otherwise uh you can call Israel a colonial settler state. Now that ignores the Jewish tie to the land, albeit slightly different borders uh of ancient times.
▶ 0:14:22Uh but it also ignores the fact that every group of human beings is a group of colonial That uh before there there were Schumash in the San Fernando Valley, I'm sure there were other tribes that before there were the Turks in Anatolia, there were the Greeks. That before there were the Poles in northern Poland, there were the Germans.
▶ 0:14:50And before there were the Arabs in Morocco and Egypt, this these lands spoke Latin and Berber and Egyptian and Greek. And the one of the greatest imperialist enterprises in the history of the world was the Arab Empire and the first and the second caliphates. So the question uh it is interesting to study history. I spent a lot of time doing it.
▶ 0:15:21But history should not be guiding us. Um, we shouldn't as to resolving modern problems. The slogan from the river to the sea is an ugly slogan.
▶ 0:15:36Whether it is in the mouths of those who would uh expel or kill every Jew living west of the Jordan River or whether it is in the hands of those who would permanently disenfranchise and in a few cases or a few extremist politicians expel the Arabs living in that same area. Uh now the Palestinians have never lost an opportunity to lose their state.
▶ 0:16:05If we can put up the second chart. In 1947, the Jews of Israel accepted this 1947 map. As you can see, uh the majority of uh the populated areas are in the hands of the Arab pal the Arabs who now call themselves Arab Palestinians. So then uh we see the 1966 borders.
▶ 0:16:33We also don't have a map of it, but we see the Palestinian state that was offered by President Clinton with the approval of Israel in his last weeks in office. Again and again, uh to the amazement of the world, a pal Palestinian leaders representing less military power demand total control of all the land.
▶ 0:16:58uh it is hard to recognize how unreasonable their bargaining position is because we're used to the ones the side that has the less military power uh accepting uh the more reasonable bargaining position. So I look forward to learning some history here, Mr. Chairman, but I am uh not going to focus my beliefs on how we should design uh peace in the Middle East on a discussion of whether the Samaritans were Jews or whether they're a separate group. and I yield back.
▶ 0:17:30Thank you to the ranking member. Other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record. We are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic. Professor Eugene Karovich, the senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation. Mr. Morton Klene, the president of the Zionist Organization of America, and Dr.
▶ 0:17:53John Alterman, the Bzinski chair in global security and geostrategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. This committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and is grateful to have you here to speak with us today. Your full statements will be made part of the record and I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for member questions.
▶ 0:18:17I now recognize Professor Kerovich for an opening Chairman Waller, Ranking Member Sherman, and honorable members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to speak on the topic of Judea and Samaria at this hearing. Let's start by discussing what is Judea and Samaria. It's a geographic name for the hilly regions north and south of Jerusalem.
▶ 0:18:40It's largely synonymous with the term West Bank, which the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan gave to the area when it conquered it and annexed it in 1950. Regardless of the name, some claim that this territory is currently under belligerent occupation by the state of Israel and the international law places numerous restrictions on Israel's presence and conduct there.
▶ 0:19:02I will explain how according to the rules of international law applied everywhere else in the world, the territory is not occupied and in fact Israel has a strong sovereign claim to it. In May 1948, the mandate for Palestine came to an end and the state of Israel was established. Five Arab armies immediately invaded, seeking to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state.
▶ 0:19:27President Truman, however, promptly recognized, quote, the Jewish state proclaimed in Palestine. So, what were Israel's borders when it was created in May 1948? In international law, there is a simple clear rule to determine the borders of new countries. Under the doctrine of UTIP potadetus jurist, a new country automatically inherits the borders of the last top level administrative unit in the area.
▶ 0:19:55In other words, pre-independence internal boundaries carry over to become the external boundaries of the new state. The continuity of prior borders is the sole deciding factor trumping fuzzy and hard to administer considerations like self-determination and as the ranking member pointed out historical title and historical presence.
▶ 0:20:18The rule is a matter of textbook international law and the reasons for it are clear demographics in history give rise to multiple competing claims whereas UTI predetus provides a unique unambiguous solution. Take for example Crimea. The territory had been part of Russia and the Russian Empire for most of the past several hundred years. The majority of the inhabitants were Russian speakers.
▶ 0:20:40Yet the international community rightly considers Russia's annexation of the territory illegal and regards it as Ukrainian territory to this day. The reason is simple. It is the UT Padetis Jewish principle. Nikita Krushchev had redrawn the internal borders of the Soviet Union to place Ukraine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. It had previously been in the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic. A fairly arbitrary decision on his part.
▶ 0:21:07When the Soviet Union became collapsed and the Ukraine became a state, it automatically inherited the borders of the last top level unit, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. So when Israel gained independence, the preceding geopolitical entity was mandatory Palestine, which included Judea and Samaria. That's not in dispute. So Israel's borders upon independence automatically extended to all of the mandatory territory it succeeded to.
▶ 0:21:35Indeed, throughout the Middle East, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, uh, Jordan, the states that had been League of Nations mandates to this day still have the borders of the mandatory territory. In each of these countries, the mandatory borders were drawn in ways that included discontented minorities unhappy to be part of the larger state, be it Muslims uh, in then Christian Lebanon or Kurds in Iraq. But in none of these cases have such arguments been seen as a reason to redraw the new borders.
▶ 0:22:05Now, Jordan and its allies failed at wiping out the Jewish state in 1948, but they did occupy much of Palestine, including Judea and Samaria. It ethnically cleansed every single Jew from this area. When Israel took these areas in 1967, it was not occupying foreign territory, but rather taking territory to which it had sovereign title since 1948, sovereign rights. Imagine if Ukraine dislodged Russia from Crimea.
▶ 0:22:29Would anyone say that Ukraine was now occupying the Crime Crimea because Russia had administered it for so long? The neutral application of these rules can very be clearly can be clearly seen in the Karabach conflict. A majority Armenian region with Azerba uh within Azerbajan with a deep Armenian history. Armenia took control of it in a war with Azerbajan at the time of the country's independence in the early 90s. Yet since Baku captured the territory in 2023, no one treats it as an occupying power.
▶ 0:22:58The reason is simple. Karabach had been within the boundaries of the Azeri Soviet Socialist Republic and automatically becomes part of uh the state of Azerban. So under widely agreed international rules, Israel has sovereign rights to the territory. The legal principles are not controversial. Some just want to create a unique carveout for the Jewish state. To conclude, let me turn to practical applications.
▶ 0:23:22Some who believe the road for peace depend on the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state may worry that the legal analysis here prevents that. That is not the case. The law is neutral to diplomatic solutions. Israel's sovereign rights to the territory does not prevent and indeed enables it to seed some or all of it for the creation of a separate Palestinian state. What the legal analysis does make clear is there is nothing about the 1949 armistice lines that make them the legally mandated or even presumptive borders of such a state. I thank you for your time and attention.
▶ 0:23:53Thank you, Professor Karovich. Thank you, Professor Konovich. I now recognize Mr. Klein for an opening Thank you, Chairman Lawler, Ranking Member Sherman, members of the committee. I'm president of the country's oldest pro-Israel organization, the Zionist Organization of America, ZOA. We're dedicated to advancing mutually beneficial US-Israel alliance, combating anti-semitism, ensuring the safety of both America and Israel.
▶ 0:24:24Before that, I was in medical research, working for many years with the two-time Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling at Stanford University. The Jewish people are called Jews because we are from Judea. We are Judans. Jew is a contraction of the word Judean. We are Judea and Samaria's indigenous people. American leaders have long recognized this.
▶ 0:24:45President John Adams wrote, "I really wish the Jews would reestablish Judea as an independent Jewish state nation." Other presidents from Lincoln to Truman has urged Judea and Samaria, then the region of Palestine to become a Jewish state. Jude and Samaria is the historic Jewish homeland where Jews lived for thousands of years.
▶ 0:25:01This is where the first Jew Abraham purchased his and Syria's burial place where God first speaks to Abraham promising Jude and Samaria to him which was the beginning of the Jewish connection to Judea and Samaria where the Jews Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Ruth, Leia are buried in the cave of Mapella, one of the holiest Jewish pla places in Judaism. Here was the first capital under King David. The Jew Jacob slept and dreamt here. The Jew Joseph is buried there. The Jewish tabernacle, the ark of the covenant stood there for 369 years.
▶ 0:25:30and the Mcabes, the hero, the heroes of the Kaneka story, lived and established their base to reclaim Israel in the Jewish temple and built fortresses there to protect the Jewish people. Exodus in the Bible relates that Moses and Joshua led the Jewish people to their homeland in Judea and Samaria. Jews have had a continuence presence there for over 3,000 years. The Jewish spiritual and historical connection has never severed or lapsed for Jews. Judea and Samaria was in the heart of the Jewish kingdoms that existed for hundreds of years.
▶ 0:25:59King David and Solomon unified Jewish kingdoms. Jews lived in Hebron, the oldest Jewish community in the world until the infamous massacre of innocent Jews in 1929, but came back in 1935. By contrast, Arabs hail from Arabia and North Africa. They were not indigenous to Jude and Samaria. There was never a Palestinian Arab state in Judea and Samaria, even when they controlled it from 48 to 67. Palestine is a Roman name, not an Arab name.
▶ 0:26:25The Romans renamed Judea and Samaria and surrounding areas Palestine after the Jewish enemy, the Philistines, to cause pain to the Jews and to try to dejudaize the area. Arabs can't even pronounce the letter P. They can't say Palestine. They say Palestine. Jude and Samaria, moreover, is legally Jewish land. A series of binding international agreements. The San Remo resolution, League of Nations Covenant, British Mandate, Lodge Fish, UN Chartered Article 80.
▶ 0:26:50Recognize the Jewish people's connection to the land and guarantee the land of Israel under international law, including Judea and Samaria, to the Jewish people. UN resolutions that contradict the UN charter are absolutely legally void. In 48 and 49, Jordan attacked the illegally seized Judea and Samaria. Jordan killed or expelled the Jews, illegally occupied the area for 19 years, only recognized by two countries, and renamed Jude and Sar the West Bank in order to dejudaize it.
▶ 0:27:17In fact, the initial PLO charter, article 24, explicitly states that the PLO has no territorial claims over Judea and Samaria and Gaza, and Jordan relinquished their claims in 1988. The PLO sought Israel's destruction, then is now, as the Palestian demand is likewise not about a state. It's about destroying Israel and murdering Jews and Christians. This is the emblem of the Palestinian Authority showing all of Israel with a kafir over all of it.
▶ 0:27:45A picture of Arafat and and the a rifle, a Kalishnaf rifle. This is not the emblem you use if you want peace with the Jewish state of Israel. This is a picture of one of the suicide bombers. They take they do pictures and posters of every suicide bomber and honoring him as a hero and a martyr and put this up in universities and high schools throughout Judea and Samaria. This is not what you do if you want peace with the Jewish state.
▶ 0:28:15The Arabs were offered the state, rejected it eight times since the appeal commission 37 three times in the last 20 years. In ' 67, Jordan attacked Israel again. In that war, Israel regained the lawful lands of Judea and Samaria. Today, there are 500,000 Jews living in Juda and Samaria. This is Jewish land legally, religiously, biblically, politically, and morally. Judea and Samaria are strategically located uh for Israel's security. If they give it up, Jude and Samaria will only be 8 miles wide.
▶ 0:28:45The the Oslo Accords have made clear that a Palestinian state would result in disaster. When they withdrew, when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, 9,000 Jews left, 30,000 rockets, and October 7th happened. when under the Oslo courts when they Jews gave up land that terrorism reigned supreme with 10,000 innocent Jews being killed. The Palestinian Authority pays $400 million a year for lifetime pensions for to Arabs to murder Jews.
▶ 0:29:10[laughter] Arab terrorists in Janine and Samaria are launching rockets at Israel right now. Only this week they found manufacturing rockets that are going on there. as uh establishing a Palestinian state would send a terrible message that terrorism pays. There are 21 Arab states and one little Jewish state. That's the yellow. It's 600 times the size of the Arab world. We need peace.
▶ 0:29:38If Israel does not have control of the Jewish heartland in Juda and Samaria, peace will be impossible. Again, Jude and Samaria, Jewish Israeli land is Jewish land legally, religiously, biblically, politically, and morally. This is what's best for America. This is what's best for Israel. Thank you very, very much.
▶ 0:29:53Thank you, Mr. Klein. I now recognize Dr. Alterman for an opening statement.
▶ 0:29:59Chairman Lawler, Ranking Member Sherman, distinguished members, thank you for the opportunity to talk with you today. The West Bank presents us with one of the hardest policy challenges we face. It's difficult because it combines ancient history, modern security threats, and deeply held religious beliefs. And here's what makes this especially complex. Even Israel's strongest supporters disagree about fundamental questions. President Trump has been clear.
▶ 0:30:28He told Time magazine that Israel would lose all support if it annexed the West Bank. Vice President Vance said the same thing after visiting Israel. Yet, some of Israel's closest friends in Congress and the evangelical community see this matter very differently. If we're honest with ourselves, we need to recognize that not only are there competing claims here, but there are competing legitimate claims. And that's if we just consider what's clear from the historical record.
▶ 0:30:58When we bring in faith, values, and interests, which aren't universal, the issue becomes even more complicated. I'm not here to advocate for one side or another or tell you who's right. I'm here to suggest that we're not dealing with a problem with one clear answer. Let me share a story. In my youth, I worked for Senator Mourne during the Northern Ireland conflict. For decades, people said that conflict was unsolvable.
▶ 0:31:25Ancient hatreds, religious divisions, antagonists at each other's throats, and a lot of Irishameans were sending money to the IRA, which was killing civilians. and Moahan and three other Irish-American politicians came together to dial down the temperature. A decade later, former Senator George Mitchell helped negotiate the Good Friday Agreement. It was a 34-page agreement that left much unsaid.
▶ 0:31:52It spawned hundreds and hundreds of pages of clarifications, elaborations, and amendments. It didn't end disagreements, but it certainly did end the fighting. in Northern Ireland is a different place and a better place. That should be our principal goal. Not finding a solution to this conflict today, but creating conditions where solutions become possible and then become real. Right now, we're headed in the wrong direction.
▶ 0:32:21When Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, it wanted to isolate Israel in the world, end Israel's normalization with Arab countries and make everyone lose hope. We cannot let them win. Israel worked hard for international acceptance since its founding. The Abraham Accords showed how previously unimaginable things are possible.
▶ 0:32:45But while some Israelis covet the lands of historic Judea and Samaria, 3 million Muslim and Christian Arabs live there. About 20% of Israeli citizens are already non-Jewish Arabs. Israel can't extend citizenship to Palestinians in the West Bank without fundamentally changing its character. Palestinians can't continue indefinitely with no clear legal status. And Israel's efforts to constrain Arabs daily lives builds resentment, not acceptance.
▶ 0:33:15Ethnic cleansing would make Israel a complete pariah. Arab governments won't accept the current situation indefinitely, and neither will much of the world. Nobody has a perfect solution. Not me, not anybody else. But I know that these solutions can't be imposed from the outside, and unilateral actions won't advance Israel's security. So what should America do? First, resist steps that foreclose future options.
▶ 0:33:44When we close doors, we make peace harder, not easier. Second, preserve space for negotiation. The parties themselves must find the way forward, but we can help keep that pathway open. Third, focus on improving daily life. Israelis and Palestinians alike who still hope for dignity, security, and peace deserve our support. Mr. Chairman, we can't solve this problem for them.
▶ 0:34:11But we can help ensure that resolution remains possible after decades of violence and disappointment. That may s not that may not sound like much, but right now it might be everything. Thank
▶ 0:34:26Thank you, Dr. Alterman. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of questions. This hearing serves an important purpose to educate everyone here and everyone watching at home about Judea and Samaria or as commonly known as the West Bank.
▶ 0:34:45We speak so freely about this territory in Congress and in conversations across the country and I think it's really important that we're actually all on the same page about what exactly we're talking about, especially when we talk about the potential for a Palestinian state in the future. So, this map behind me uh is a current map of Judea and Samaria. The map is color-coded to showcase the different areas located within what is referred to as the West Bank.
▶ 0:35:16Area A in burgundy is the only area with full control by the Palestinian Authority. Area B, which is more of a mustard color, is under PA administrative control, but Israel has certain s uh security responsibilities there.
▶ 0:35:36And then area C, which is the rest of the map, uh the beige color, uh and covers over 60% of the land is under Israeli civilian and security control. So when people say the West Bank, this is what we're actually talking about. So Mr.
▶ 0:35:57Klein, why do you think fully understanding the makeup of Judea and Samaria is helpful for members of Congress as we talk about long-term resolutions to the Palestinian Israeli conflict and other topics at present
▶ 0:36:19in Oh, sorry. Thank you. Uh, Israel has allowed admin has given away all of Gaza, given administrative control to 40% of Judea and Samaria. This is where 99% of the Palestinian Arabs live. They live under their own rule. Nobody is occupying them. They have their own parliament, their own TV and radio, their own media, their own police force, their own businesses. It's important for people to understand this.
▶ 0:36:48Uh and it's important for people to understand that Israel has offered a state to the Palestinians eight times in the last 80 years starting with the Peel Commission in 1937. Uh last with Ahmmer in 2008 offered them 97% of Jude and Samaria, 3% of Israel and half of Jerusalem. They said no. I asked Ahmir personally, "Mr. Prime Minister, how could Abbas have turned you down? There was no compromise.
▶ 0:37:13You gave them everything." He said Abbas said he won't sign an agreement that says we support Israel as a Jewish state. I won't sign it. We want we will not we to have a limit to the number of Arabs that can move into Israel to 150,000. I won't sign it to have a clause that says uh there'll be no further claims. We we will have further claims whenever we want. So it's important to understand the history of this region and what was offered in Judea Samaria that was turned down eight times in the last 80 years.
▶ 0:37:41No question. Now let's rewind a bit. Mr. Kurovich, can you clarify whether Judea and Samaria was originally part of the British mandate for Palestine established after World War I?
▶ 0:37:52Uh, absolutely. It was part of the League of Nations mandate for Palestine. There was no such distinct entity. There was also no distinct entity of Gaza. The current shape of it with its weird curves and bubbles are simply as far as the Jordanian and Iraqi armies got towards their eliminationist drive towards the coast. So when the British mandate ended in 1948 and the state of Israel was declared, how was sovereignty over Judea and Samaria determined or was it left unresolved?
▶ 0:38:19So when a country is created, there's no formal uh announcement of its borders. The rule of Utipadetis works automatically to if there is a dispute about its borders, then that determines its borders. So Israel's borders at the moment of its independence would have been the borders of mandatory Palestine. And who took control of Judea and Samaria follow following Israel's independence in 1948? And under what legal framework did that occur?
▶ 0:38:44Uh the Jordanian army, the Arab Legion along with Iraq and Saudi Arabia who are helping them under the framework of invasion that was not recognized as lawful an aggression.
▶ 0:38:53And to what extent do past international frameworks or negotiations such as Oslo and subsequent agreements still shape realities on the ground today? Uh Oslo I think is quite important in that it did transfer the control of the lives of Palestinians and governance of Palestinians in Judea and Samaria to a Palestinian government. So they are as uh Mr. Klein said governed by uh
▶ 0:39:17within 40% of what is referred to as the West Bank
▶ 0:39:22which happens to be where most of them in fact live. Now it's true that many of them have been trying to move into area C on the theory that they already have A and B locked down. Now, let's try to take control of area C. Demographics does not hold still. Time does not stop.
▶ 0:39:36Thank you. I now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Sherman, for five minutes.
▶ 0:39:41Thank you, Mr. Klein. You point out that some of the greatest Jews in history lived in the West Bank near Herbrun and else other elsewhere. But I I would It's my time, Mr. Klein. Uh, I would point out that some of the greatest Greeks in history lived in western Anatolia and in Alexandria, a city f founded by perhaps the greatest Greek of all, Alexander.
▶ 0:40:08Some of the greatest Greek temples to their false gods were built in Alexandria and in Anatolia. Uh, this does not mean that I support Greek annexation of northern Egypt uh or western Turkey. Um our first Eugene uh you uh go through a list uh of uh places uh where you look at the previous borders.
▶ 0:40:35I'd point out that the US rejects that when it comes to Kosovo, which of course was part of Serbia in the Yugoslav uh Federation. Um, but I think we will find a time when Palestinian or Arab nationalists demand annexation and Israel rejects it. And I'll tell you why. You go back to uh your Ukraine example. You say, okay, Crimea, very much part of Ukraine.
▶ 0:41:01It was inhabited mostly by Russian speakers, a lot of Tartars during the decades in which uh Kev controlled Crimea. Uh were the Russian speakers or given the full franchise?
▶ 0:41:16Yes or no? It's a very simple question.
▶ 0:41:18Is that is that a question?
▶ 0:41:19Yeah. Uh they were allowed to vote in Ukrainian elections of course,
▶ 0:41:23right? And could you imagine what would happen in the Knesset if everyone living on the West Bank and Gaza were able to uh to vote? Uh I uh I think that would be a civil war in Israel. Uh so annexation without infranchisement uh is not something that the United States has uh has ever supported.
▶ 0:41:45But I'll point out that I think Donald Trump was uh very clear when he said in September, I will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. I will not allow it. It's not going to happen. And uh while some have argued that you don't need to annex the West Bank because it's already part of Israel, clearly that's not what President Trump uh had in mind.
▶ 0:42:12Um so um I've got a question for Mr. Klein that you're sitting next to the gentleman from the Heritage Foundation.
▶ 0:42:25Um, Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts said uh, conservatives should not be cancelling Nick Fuentes and he excoriated those who called out Tucker Carlson uh, as a venomous coalition of global uh, of the globalist class. I believe you have called out Tucker Carlson for platforming a man who says Hitler was very effing cool.
▶ 0:42:55Um, are you part of a venomous coalition of the global class when you call for the denunciation of Mr. Fuentes?
▶ 0:43:04Yes, Mike Huckabe is part of the venomous coalition. President Trump, uh, Mark Levvin, this was an outrageous statement. Uh obviously when that Tucker Carlson not only platforms a vicious Jew hater and denier of the Holocaust who praises Stalin and Hitler without repudiating him at that interview. Had he had him there as an interview and condemned him for virtually everything he said, that would be one thing.
▶ 0:43:34But to be nodding his head and letting him go on and on with his outrageous statement, that was what that was the crime. I'll now shift to the gentleman from the the Heritage Foundation. Uh how comfortable are you staying at the Heritage Heritage Foundation given this dispute about uh the man who thinks that Hitler is cool?
▶ 0:43:52Um I don't think there's any dispute uh at Heritage about Nick Fuentes. Uh I think uh the president of Heritage, Kevin Roberts, has subsequently very clearly uh denounced Nick Fuentes. And most importantly, our work to combat anti-semitism has vastly expanded in the past couple years. certain certainly since I came aboard in the past year.
▶ 0:44:12I'll go to finally to Mr. Alman. Uh can you think of how Israel that if Israel were to annex the West Bank, do you think the world would tolerate the uh uh decades and decades of disenfranchising those who live there? And when I say disenfranchising, they might be allowed to vote in local elections, but no franchise to vote for the national government.
▶ 0:44:34Um, when I think of examples of countries that have had large populations where people by nature of race, religion, ethnicity have been systematically disenfranchised, it's not ended well. Uh, whether it's the French presence in Algeria, um, southern Rhdesia, on and on and on.
▶ 0:44:56And and as we currently see with the the Chinese occupation of Tibet, uh it creates a a and also with the the weaguers uh in in western China, it creates a a sense of of injustice.
▶ 0:45:14Uh thank you the ranking member. I would just note uh there are Palestinian Israeli citizens serving in the Knesset. Okay. So, show me the Arab state where there are Jews serving in their government. And uh I look forward to
▶ 0:45:32Yeah, but I I would point out
▶ 0:45:35out of how many?
▶ 0:45:37Out of how many and that that is one of the fundamental problems by the way in gather that is one of the fundamental problems that we're talking about. But moreover, moreover, uh, when the president is talking about annexing, again, I think it's important to actually look at the map, 60% of the West Bank is under Israeli control. So the issue of annexation is on the Palestinian areas, not the Jewish areas.
▶ 0:46:07And that is the fundamental point that seems to get lost when we actually have this discussion.
▶ 0:46:12Mr. Chairman, I Mr. Chairman, I will insist upon an equal amount of time.
▶ 0:46:17No, I now recognize,
▶ 0:46:18Mr. Chairman, you cannot seize time.
▶ 0:46:21Side of this aisle gets the same time.
▶ 0:46:25I've been on this committee for 29 years. You should know the rules.
▶ 0:46:28I now recognize Mr. Burchett for 5
▶ 0:46:31Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is of all the the witnesses.
▶ 0:46:35Excuse me.
▶ 0:46:36Um, is activity in Judea and Samaria, the West Bank, affecting the peace deal in Gaza? Go ahead, brother.
▶ 0:46:45Uh these areas have been separately governed and separately administered uh for quite a long time. Uh the activity uh in Judea and Samaria does not directly affect uh peace in Gaza. Gaza has been really its own thing at least since Hamas took over in 2006.
▶ 0:47:03Sorry. [laughter]
▶ 0:47:07Yes. The fact that the Palestinian Authority still has its charter calling for the destruction of Israel and many of the clauses in the charter. The fact the Palestinian Authority violates the Taylor Force Act, the US Act, paying Arabs $400 million a year for lifetime pensions to murder Jews and Christians.
▶ 0:47:24By the way, the fact that they named school streets, sports teams, uh, and sporting events after Jew killers and Christian killers, this makes it crystal clear that the actions taken by Fata in the in the in the Jude and Samaritan territories make peace virtually impossible until they have a dramatic reformation and transformation of of their actions and of their regime there. Yes.
▶ 0:47:49The actions of Dan surrounded by Fat Mahmed Abbas that make peace absolutely impossible until there's a dramatic reformation.
▶ 0:47:58um there there's no question that I I find frankly objectionable things going on on both sides in both communities. I think they're extremists in both communities. It's a little hard to fully accept the idea of Palestinian self-ruule when it is hard for Palestinians to move between areas. It's almost impossible for Palestinians to build in many areas and get permission to build. Trade is restricted. Currency and banking is restricted.
▶ 0:48:29This is to an extent self-ruule to the Palestinian authorities credit. Their security cooperation with the Israelis which Israeli security officials will tell you is very very important has created friction between the Palestinian Authority and some Palestinians who argue that there needs to be something some sort of pressure to end the current status quo.
▶ 0:48:53But as I said, I think I think anybody being honest would say there are there are a lot of objectionable things happening on both sides. There are extremists on both sides. And the question is, how do you marginalize the extremist?
▶ 0:49:04I remember when I was labeled an I said I remember when I was labeled an extremist. Thank you. Um Mr. Canarri Burch, it's a tough name to say. I suspect they slaughter yours pretty regular, too. Um why is the area referred to as Judea and Samaria now and no longer the West Bank.
▶ 0:49:27Um uh first of all different people do call it different things. Judea and Samaria is a historical name. It's also I think important to know the name the United Nations actually used to refer to the area as late as 1947. West Bank was a term substituted by Jordan because it's to the west of Jordan. With the end of Jordanian occupation, there's no reason to call it the West Bank and it makes sense to revert to its natural name, Judea and Samaria.
▶ 0:49:52Okay. Um, and what do you think the regional partners think of the debate over this area?
▶ 0:49:58What do the regional partners think? Uh, so obviously uh some of them, you know, for example, Egypt. Uh, some of these countries are still mad that they lost a bunch of wars to Israel and are happy to continue any situation which weakens and undermines Israel. So they're happy to support uh you know entities and elements that are going to commit terror against Israel.
▶ 0:50:18All right, you each got about 20 seconds to answer this. I'll start with you, brother. What's your opinion of on how to get this resolved?
▶ 0:50:27Um diplomats always talk about ripess. I think it's not ripe now. The most important thing now is
▶ 0:50:33grab mic. I can't hear you.
▶ 0:50:35I'm sorry. Diplomats always talk about ripeness. I don't think this is ripe to solve. I think the most important thing is to keep either side from taking steps that foreclose solutions and working toward progress in the future.
▶ 0:50:48Sort of a day taunt, I guess. Sir,
▶ 0:50:54Mike, here you go. There must be a an immediate demand for a reformation of the Palestinian Authority. For them to stop having children like this beautiful Arab girl saying what could be better than going to paradise promoting suicide bombings that must be stopped to change their stationary which shows all of Israelist Palestine that must be stopped and their [clears throat] atlases. So that's what must be emphasized. You have to start fighting terrorism.
▶ 0:51:24stop paying Arabs to to murder Jews and Christians
▶ 0:51:27real quick.
▶ 0:51:28Yeah, I'm not a believer in a solution, but there's a reason we're at this place because every time the Palestinians say no to a state, as uh Mr. Sherman has said, they are rewarded with a more generous offer. You need to turn that dynamic around. Every no,
▶ 0:51:42thank you.
▶ 0:51:43It's less.
▶ 0:51:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank the people in the crowd that are paid $15 to disrupt and distract us. I I I thank them as well. Thank you, brother. Thank you, Representative Burchett. I now recognize Representative Keading for five minutes.
▶ 0:51:58Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a congressional hearing of the United States of America. I'd like to focus on our position, what we're doing, what we can do to help. And when I say what we can do to help, I mean to bring peace in the region. So, I'd like to ask Mr.
▶ 0:52:17Alman, could you uh comment on uh which is like a half century of US policy where a two-state solution during that period has been first and foremost and can you tell us your opinion if there can ever be anything that would interrupt this cycle of violence and killings uh that occur that wouldn't involved uh wouldn't involve re regional partnership in that solution? I do. Let me make two points.
▶ 0:52:46Um, one is is that one of the things I've heard a lot from people in government is sometimes if you have an insoluble problem, the way to solve it is to enlarge the problem. And I think that the the instinct of creating more regional support is a good instinct which has started under previous administrations which the Trump administration has quite admirably furthered and embraced and I think that's part of the solution.
▶ 0:53:11The other thing is we've actually been pushing a two-state solution since the 50s. Um the Anderson mission in 19556. We go way back on this issue. Um and I think that we have to think less about how do we draw the border and we have to think more about how do we create a two-state solution that changes the meanings of some phrases.
▶ 0:53:40And the phrases you have to change are to and state and solution. I think traditionally thinking of states in normal ways with impenetrable boundaries that's I don't think
▶ 0:53:51so along those lines uh prior to the uh horrific disgusting attacks on on October 7th. Uh were was there great progress in moving along those lines you were talking about uh where uh other countries in the region were buying into normalization for Israel. uh and and wasn't there uh really an area of great progress in your opinion?
▶ 0:54:15There was a lot of progress and one of the things that Hamas was trying to do was to undermine that normalization. I think that the Saudis frankly are ready to move in that direction. I think we're having a very we're looking at a very different relationship with Syria, a very different relationship with Lebanon. The prospects are there. There's a problem with Palestinian leadership, no question. I think there's also problems just on a geographic basis.
▶ 0:54:40I mean, the capital of Jordan is 25 25 miles away from uh the West Bank borders. And when you have this kind of internal insecurity that's occurring here and the violence that's really frankly not being addressed and uh what does that how's that affect Jordan?
▶ 0:54:58Jordan's very concerned about 60% of the Jordanian population is of Palestinian origin and they're very concerned that either instability and influx of uh more Palestinians into Jordan would would disrupt that that balance that would create not only problems for us we have a lot invested in Jordanian security but also for Israel which has built a security relationship with Jordan since
▶ 0:55:20the center of much of this effort for regional participation and really looking for a way to break that cycle. has been Saudi Arabia uh and that's been a focus of the current administration, prior administrations and trying to deal with this but they support a two-state solution uh as a requirement.
▶ 0:55:41uh and can we move to that normalization without addressing this and and the and the other issue is you know we we put a lot of time and uh you know working to support the Abraham Accords this violence without it can unravel these regional partners what's the effect on the Abraham accord if this continues the way it is now
▶ 0:56:05well I think the Abraham Accords may splinter one of the goals of the Saudi visit when the the crown prince was here was to divorce the US Saudi bilateral relationship from normalization with Israel. Their feeling is they were successful in doing that partly because of the sense of of of where annexation other things are and how alarmed the Trump administration is at their prospect.
▶ 0:56:27So, um, the history lesson might be enlightening to some, but I'm really keen and as a member of the US Congress trying to deal with peace and bring peace to the region, how important this is. And, uh, I just wanted to take my time to underscore this is what we should be talking about, not looking backwards, but looking at the present and looking at the future in very pragmatic terms. Uh, I yield back.
▶ 0:56:55I now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Isa, for five minutes.
▶ 0:57:00Thank you. And I'm going to pick up where my colleague left off. Uh you uh you you said two things. First of all, you paraphrased Eisenhower who was the father of make the problem bigger to solve a big problem is make you know draw it larger. Um which President Trump has done in some not small steps. However, you also said we need to stop saying twostate solution.
▶ 0:57:30Is it fair to say that the two-state solution that once had a Pakistan that was in two parts with India in between is an example of a two-state solution that didn't work?
▶ 0:57:46Yes. Okay. And one of the reasons it didn't work was that you tried to have sovereign equality. while in fact having groups that saw themselves based on their religion and other characteristics. In other words, they didn't respect the sovereign a Muslim Indian and a Hindu Indian versus a the same groups or others in Pakistan.
▶ 0:58:12Isn't that a correlary to what we have today uh outside of Israel where most ArabIsraelis consider themselves Israelis and have have somewhat integrated but within the West Bank and and Gaza that's exactly what we have is they don't they're not they're not prepared to be a single sovereign Um, you know, Pakistan is complicated, India is complicated, the West Bank is complicated. [laughter]
▶ 0:58:42Exactly. So, I'm not I'm not sure the
▶ 0:58:46Well, here's my here's my reason for asking. I I was leading to a to one question which is if we were to take your twostate solution and say we're going to throw it out the window then should we in America first of all reject organizations like the United Nations and others who have declared statethood at a time in which you couldn't be further from a responsible government to govern the Palestinians uh themselves
▶ 0:59:16and and instead be looking for a solution that is not a conventional state, one that has levels of autonomy, levels of governance, but in fact, as you alluded to, the borders would inherently be porous. The uh the question of militarization and so on would be dealt with in some ways as though it is one nation and in other ways clearly with a recognition of the facts on the ground.
▶ 0:59:47But the other piece of this which actually makes me a little uncomfortable but I think is a reality is Israel's complete sovereignty is going to be compromised when I that's that's the meaning of of of working out a different meaning of state that Israel's ability to unilaterally make decisions about finance about security about about all those things would also be subject to some sort of outside
▶ 1:00:12let me go to the other witnesses because I I think I I get what you're saying, but I also saw their heads moving. Finding a solution that provides sufficient sovereignty, sufficient control, but recognizes this intermixing of people u and respects the fact that for better or worse, there is a functional government in Jerusalem and there isn't in Ramla. Could I get to your comments?
▶ 1:00:39Yeah. So contrary to some examples we've heard Algeria or whatever, it's currently the case that Israel does not govern the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria in the sense that they're not taxed. They're not conscripted. They are Mickey Mouse.
▶ 1:00:52No, they are taxed, but it's refunded.
▶ 1:00:55Sometimes refunded and sometimes slowly.
▶ 1:00:57The uh you know, Israel does not make their budgets. Israel does not draft them into uh into the army. So they govern themselves. Israel's relationship with these areas is purely one of security. That's what the checkpoints are about. etc. And even if they had an independent state, Israel would still have a right to maintain a security presence because every country has a right to self-defense. So, uh, proposals about autonomy make a lot of sense.
▶ 1:01:23I would point out that, you know, there's places like American Samoa, part of the United States, who do not vote in, you know, for, uh, for you guys. Uh, but we don't consider this to be a situation of, uh,
▶ 1:01:33but we do, they do, they do stand among us and and and have a say. Uh, Dr.
▶ 1:01:41first of all, we have to understand the problem is refusal to accept Israel as a Jewish state. Giving them a state doesn't change that. Uh Iraq,
▶ 1:01:50this this has been well established.
▶ 1:01:53And by the way, I have to disabuse Mr. Alterman where he keeps saying that Hamas launched this atrocious attack to to stop normalization. They were planning this attack for years. They were launching rockets starting in 2005, 35,000 rockets. That wasn't to stop normalization. It was to kill Jews and destroy Israel. If there was no normalization, they'd still be doing this. Don't act like this is some sort of a political act.
▶ 1:02:21And even Fatah Mahm Abbas, he bragged that hundreds of his own people from the Palestinian Authority were involved in the 6,500 people who were massacring 1,200 Jews.
▶ 1:02:30Thank you. And thank you for your indulgence, chairman. Uh, I now recognize Representative Dean for five
▶ 1:02:37Thank you, Chairman Lawler. Thank you, Ranking Member Sherman, for holding this hearing. And thank you to our witnesses for testifying today and bringing us your experience and your expertise. I always like to start by saying personally uh by serving on this committee, by serving in Congress, I have had the great pleasure of traveling to Israel uh to the West Bank uh multiple times uh and my own faith uh is enhanced as I go there because it is the birthplace of uh my own faith. I'm a practicing Catholic.
▶ 1:03:07We call it practicing because we never quite get it right. Um but it it it is enriching to go there uh and to to think about the history to recognize the current sets of conflicts and to look to the future for peace and justice uh for all who are there. But let's go back a little and talk about what the present is.
▶ 1:03:27Uh what we are seeing from Israel, from Israelis in the West Bank, unprecedented settlement expansion, retroactction, retroactive legalization of outposts previously illegal under Israeli law, and the authorization of new settlements. In August of 2025, this year, uh the Israeli government granted approval to build more than 3,000 housing units in Ewan, which is near East Jerusalem. uh rising settler violence.
▶ 1:03:56October 25 saw the highest levels of settler violence in the West Bank on record totaling 264 attacks. This includes le lethal attacks against American citizens. Uh and what we see is it has been reported between 20 uh 2005 and 2024 93% of concluded cases came up with no indictments.
▶ 1:04:22uh what we're seeing from the Trump administration, the 20point plan that anticipates a greater role for the Palestinian Authority. Trump publicly stating, President Trump publicly stating in September of this year that he would not allow Israel to annex West Bank areas. So, some questions that I have, uh if I could just start, uh with you, Dr.
▶ 1:04:45Alterman, how are Israeli actions in the West Bank affecting stability and the Palestinian Authorities's role as a counterweight to
▶ 1:04:57Uh, Israeli actions in the West Bank discredit the Palestinian Authority. They make it look weak. Uh, it is accused by many of being subservient to a a dominating uh Israeli government. And uh I think one of the the challenges that Mahmud Abbas has had um is the the feeling from Palestinians is he's never really been able to deliver anything. He's delivered things or to Palestinians he's been able to deliver things to the Israelis.
▶ 1:05:27Um he has about a 13% approval rating which is pretty stark. And I've been there, as I said, and asked uh leading members of uh the coalition, the Netanyahu coalition about settler violence, for example, or settler expansion, and they've denied it. Literally using the word, as well as as the opposition leader, too. Uh using words like, "Oh, that's just one rogue actor." This denial that it is even going on.
▶ 1:05:57What am I to make of that?
▶ 1:05:59Um I think it it goes on. It's hard to understand exactly how much outside of a classified realm. I'm sure that um the US security coordinator and the intelligence community has a much better idea of celebrate of separating uh truth from fiction there.
▶ 1:06:18There's no question in my mind that there are some groups in the West Bank who not only believe that they have a religious justification for being there, but argue that there's a religious justification for terrorizing Arabs.
▶ 1:06:34There are a lot of passages in the Bible in Deuteronomy and in in 1 Samuel that talk about defeating enemies, defeating Amala killing and and I a minority, a small minority, but a real minority thinks that those are are relevant to the current situation.
▶ 1:06:54And I certainly remember being in a synagogue after uh 9/11 and somebody interrupted a rabbi and said who was talking about what to do and said the Bible says you should kill am these are Amalikch the Bible says you should kill Amalikch that is a view.
▶ 1:07:11Uh thank you sadly and but it's important to understand that I want to connect and I think Mr. Sherman was asking uh about this also and I appreciate your history of the troubles in Northern Ireland. What can we say? You know, I think there's interesting parallels here to other territorial conflicts, for example, Russia, Ukraine. Can you make some comparisons?
▶ 1:07:31Um, I think President Putin argues that Ukraine has a historic uh linkage with Russia, that it's it's historically part of Russia. Um, President Eisenhower, if I can invoke him again, uh, Mr. ISIS left.
▶ 1:07:45Uh, President Eisenhower argued in the 1956 Suez crisis, the US should push back against its allies, France, the UK, and also against Israel coming into Egypt because if we don't stand by international principles, if we don't push back on aggression, we will have to fight everywhere all the time. It is easier to defend Ukraine's sovereignty if we're consistent defending
▶ 1:08:10Thank you,
▶ 1:08:10Gently. Time has expired. I now recognize Representative Jackson for 5
▶ 1:08:15Uh, thank you, Chairman Lawler, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today and for your time. Uh, thanks to the incredible work by President Trump, Secretary Rubio, and the entire administration, all of the living hostages in Gaza have come home, and a comprehensive peace plan between Israel and Hamas is now in place. Now, the thoughtful implementation of the peace plan is is key to the long-term success.
▶ 1:08:36and I'm committed to working with my colleagues in Congress, the administration, and all of our allies to ensure that this plan is executed In February, the Palestinian Authority reportedly ended its paytoslay program, also known as the martyrs fund. And as many of you may know, uh I have been key in providing legislation to try to stop this uh during the last administration and went so far as to sue President Biden over his refusal to enforce US law in the form of the Taylor Force Act.
▶ 1:09:06Um, now we find that the Palestinian Authority has replaced it with a welfare program that allocates aid to families based on economic need. Supposedly, despite this reform, the same households that receive payments from the pay to slave program now qualify for the newly created welfare program. This raises the question, are these genuine reforms or are these simply the martyrs? Is this simply the martyrs fund rebranded?
▶ 1:09:31So, Professor uh Contovich, uh how should Congress and the Trump administration evaluate the success of the reformed stipened system? And is there a tangible difference between the Palestinian Authorities pay to slave program and the new welfare payments that we are seeing?
▶ 1:09:47Of course, there's there's no difference because there has not been a change of heart and a change of mind. There is a desire to try to comply with US legislation to allow funding and to say that they've reformed, but nobody believes they've changed their views. And it's crucial to point out that the 20point plan, the comprehensive plan for Gaza, which you point out only allows the Palestinian Authority to have any role in Gaza once they have completed a thoroughgoing slate of reforms. And they're like at day zero, I would say, at this point.
▶ 1:10:17Thank you, Mr. Klein. Did you have anything to add to that? Uh [laughter] there's been no change whatsoever in the Palestinian authorities's attitude to murdering Jews and destroying Israel. That's why he brags about the fact that hundreds of his own people were involved in in October 7th. And uh we we need to put enormous pressure for a major change in the Palestinian Authority.
▶ 1:10:42And with your permission uh I have to say I urge all of you to read the rego report 125 report which totally destroys the lie of settler violence. It is extremely minimal and and these are false statements made by anti-Israel NOS's and the anti-Israel UN. This is absolutely false and also there's been almost no settlements built since Oslo began in 1993. Israel can occupies 3 to 5% of Jude and Samaria.
▶ 1:11:11This is one of the big total nonsense lies. And if there was a deal made when Israel's offered a state three times in the last 20 years, if they accepted that, there would be no discussion of this. They turn it down because they won't accept Israel as a Jewish state. Let's look at who is responsible for the constant lack of peace in the Middle East. It's the Arabs, not Israel.
▶ 1:11:31Thank you, Mr. Klein. I have one more quick question. See if I can get it in real quick. Uh, the Palestinian Authority has continually supported terrorism and militant activities against Israel while rejecting peace proposals within the country. Step nine of President Trump's 20point Gaza peace plan hinges on the Palestinian Authority completing necessary reforms in order to govern the public services and municipalities in Gaza. But the PA has a long record of taking actions to directly undermine undermine regional peace and security.
▶ 1:11:58Once again, professor, uh, what makes this agreement different from past attempts at peace and what reforms do you believe are the most important for the Palestinian Authority to implement to ensure lasting
▶ 1:12:09Yeah, so th this this agreement, the 20point plan, in no way guarantees the PA or role, right? It provides conditions for when they may have a role and as always, it's up to them to step up and if they don't, they have no one to blame but themselves.
▶ 1:12:23Thank you. Thank you. Um, thank you again to the witnesses here. The success of President Trump's peace plan peace peace plan relies on all the parties involved acting in good faith to advance the agreement particularly in the Palestinian Authority as you just alluded to. Uh I look forward to working with the president to fully implement the peace in the Middle East and I welcome working with anyone who is committed to ensuring the same. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With that, I yield
▶ 1:12:48Thank you, Representative Jackson. I now recognize Representative Schneider for five minutes.
▶ 1:12:54Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the witnesses for uh joining us. I want to uh commend my colleague in noting the return of all the living hostages. It's also important to note that one hostage Rangely still remains in Gaza and we all pray for his uh swift return. As an American Jew, Israel security and the security of the Jewish people at large has always been a central concern for me.
▶ 1:13:16I've always believed that the best way to open to ensure Israel's safe and secure future as a Jewish democratic state is to find to find to open and to move down a path for peaceful coexistence of Jews and Arabs living together which by the way is the vision of the Abraham Accords that I think all of us celebrate and I'm proud to be a co-chair of the Abraham Accords caucus. Jews, Muslims, and Christians all trace their stories to the same hills and cities.
▶ 1:13:44Israelis and Palestinians on the other hand only come into being at the same moment on May 14th, 1948. The reason I think the Abraham Accords are potentially so transformational is that for the first time the accords put a formal doc put into a formal document the idea that both the Jewish people and the Arab people belong to the same land.
▶ 1:14:09that by finding a way to live together on that land with mutual recognition and respect, Jews and Arabs can finally break free from the gravity of history that has held them back for so long and chart a new path for integration, security, prosperity, and peace. for all the people living in the region.
▶ 1:14:29As an American Jew, I was raised and I will always be a Zionist, holding fast to the Jewish people's aspiration and right to a state in the historical homeland of the Jewish people. That doesn't mean the denial or the dismissal of the Palestinians similar aspirations, which is why I believe that peace includes ultimately a negotiated two-state solution.
▶ 1:14:53the Jewish democratic state of Israel living in security, prosperity, and peace with a demilitarized Palestinian state. Not something that will be there tomorrow, not even in the near horizon, but something out in the future, which is why I oppose unilateral annexation. President Trump has also said plainly that he will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. Vice President Vance backed him up, stating the policy, this administration's West Bank will not be annexed by Israel.
▶ 1:15:21Secretary Rubio has warned that record levels of settler violence in the West Bank risk derailing the Gaza ceasefire in the 20point plan that bears President Trump's name. Even Ambassador Huckabe, who proudly calls this land Judea and Samaria, has also highlighted settler violence, real actual settler violence following attacks in TB. My question, I'll start with you, U. Mr. Klein.
▶ 1:15:46Why is it Can you explain your disagreement with President Trump's firm opposition to unilateral Israel an annexation of the West Bank?
▶ 1:16:00The 60% of the territory that is not under Israel's administrative control contains almost no Arabs and the thought of establishing yet another terrorist state is just
▶ 1:16:12we can agree we will not and must not allow the establishment of a terrorist state. Mr. Kovich, why do you disagree with President Trump's position, Vice President Vance's Ambassador Archabe's position uh opposing unilateral
▶ 1:16:26Yeah, so I don't think uh the position has been uh accurately characterized. Nobody in Israel is talking about annexing the West Bank. There have been proposals to extend Israeli civil law to those areas where Jewish communities are. In other words, to incorporate under Israeli law parts of Judea and Samaria. President Trump's plan is consistent with his 2020 vision for peace where Israel would in fact expand Israeli civil jurisdiction specifically to those areas and it seems his comments were simply a reaffirmation of that.
▶ 1:16:56That's how I understand it.
▶ 1:16:57I I I to be fair I think his comments were clear there will not be annexation was I believe
▶ 1:17:03the West Bank.
▶ 1:17:04Um thank you. Uh Dr. Alterman, let me let me turn to you as we're looking to the prospects for the future. Uh the Abraham Accords which were signed in 2020. I was privileged to be on the White House lawn for that signing. Uh faced a severe test in the uh war over the last two years, but it survived that test. It upheld the test. The relations remain and the possibility remains for the future.
▶ 1:17:27In the last 30 seconds, can you touch on why it's so important to preserve the path to peace and the opening that the Abraim Accords I think for real security reasons, economic reasons, psychic reasons, an Israel that is genuinely embedded in its region is a region is an Israel that is profoundly more secure, more prosperous and where Jews and and Arabs alike uh can live side by side in peace and
▶ 1:17:56Thank you. And and just in in closing if you'll indulge me uh chairman uh Abraham Accords are opening a new possibility to the entire region but it is beyond the region. We can look at the uh India Middle East corridors that are providing uh prospects for uh a broader region from India through the Middle East onto Europe.
▶ 1:18:15We need to hold that on to those possibilities and we need to ensure this moment that is a historical moment uh not of a hundred years but I would argue of uh history to find a path to peace has to be reserved and we have to work together to keep that open and move down that path. I yield back.
▶ 1:18:31I now recognize Representative Kaine for five minutes.
▶ 1:18:35Uh thank you Mr. Chairman and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. America's partnership with Israel is of critical importance. I appreciate our witnesses taking the time to discuss the current situation in the region. Uh, Professor Ktoovich, as the peace process continues to unfold, the international community must remain vigilant to ensure the full implementation of this peace plan.
▶ 1:19:05How does the United States work with the Arab partners to more effectively press the Palestinian Authority to advance reforms to counter terrorist threats?
▶ 1:19:14So, uh, nobody can force the Palestinian Authority to do anything other than, you know, to be who who they're not. Uh, unless they have a fundamental change of conviction, it's going to be impossible for them to reform. And I want to say uh the Palestinian Authority uh has always had the position that any state that they want should begin free of any Jews. That's a very fundamental position. That's a position completely at odds with the idea of this is a land that belongs to everyone.
▶ 1:19:42So, you know, until they download a different ideology, I think it's going to be very hard for them to move forward. And the pressure really needs to be on the uh on the ideology and the belief system that leads them to act. You know, they don't they didn't accidentally adopt paper sleigh. It wasn't a mistake. It was a consequence of deeply held beliefs. And if they still hold those beliefs, they will continue to try to act on them.
▶ 1:20:05Uh uh, professor, the partnership between the US, Israel, Greece, and the Republic of Cyprus, sometimes referred to as the 3+ one partnership, offers a strategic opportunity to counter terrorism in the eastern Mediterranean. As the peace plan moves forward, how can the United States and Israel leverage the 3+1 partnership to support Israel and to promote peace in Judea, Samaria, and across the Middle
▶ 1:20:33So, I I think you're absolutely right that we see now a fundamentally different situation in the eastern Mediterranean from what anyone could have imagined. Israel is now, you know, exporting gas uh to uh through Cyprus and the partnership with uh Greece and Cyprus is crucial and I think it's important that they, you know, not just other countries in the Eastern Mediterranean that are very active and vocal play, you know, a crucial role in ensuring security in the area.
▶ 1:21:01Thank you, Mr. Klein. Uh what steps can Congress take to promote strategic partnerships in the Middle East that bring uh lasting peace to Israel?
▶ 1:21:14Well, first of all, we should make it clear that there'll be no funds coming to the Palestinian Authority until they begin to do what happened in 1945 after World War II where we denassified the Nazi regime. We have to denify the Palestinian Authority.
▶ 1:21:30We should start with America demanding that the FATA charter, not the pillow charter, the ruling party charter, which states, quote, "We oppose any political solution offered as an alternative to demolishing the Zionist occupation in Palestine and the eradication of the Zionist economic, political, military, and cultural existence." The first thing Congress should do is demand that that fat charter be publicly changed. And of course, to stop naming school, streets, and sports teams after Jew killers and Christian killers.
▶ 1:22:00Uh that that's what Congress should be doing. If we should be talking about how this regime does not support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, that's why when they were offered everything, they said no. Congress must be talking about that and start criticizing this regime. I don't hear it from Congress and I'd like them to to really start.
▶ 1:22:21Professor Kerovich, your insights in that regard?
▶ 1:22:25I think I will uh I don't have much to add on that one.
▶ 1:22:28Okay. Thank you. Um, so, Professor, what steps, excuse me, can can you describe how the United States and Israel are working together with allies in the region to implement the the peace plan that's been agreed to by all parties?
▶ 1:22:46Yeah, absolutely. The comprehensive uh plan for peace is a a fundamental breakthrough. Uh, you know, it has seen the return of all the living hostages. It has seen a massive reduction in uh hostilities. Um, at the same time, Hamas is still there and it's important to just start reading the plan from the beginning. And point one is Gaza is going to be a dradicalized terror-free zone, you know, for the benefit of the people who live in Gaza. And the demilitarization of Hamas needs to needs to happen.
▶ 1:23:15Uh, it's not something that could be deferred. It's perhaps the hardest part. Uh, but Gaza will not succeed if terror groups hold arms and weapons. And that is the fundamental essence of the plan. and no one can be distracted from that.
▶ 1:23:29Thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing here today. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:23:34Thank you, Representative Kane. I now recognize Representative Fine for 5
▶ 1:23:39Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for letting me wave on today for this important subject. Um, I'd like to perhaps give my perspective on all of this because I think it's important and maybe I'll have a couple questions. Um, in 1948, two states were created as the British left that part of the world. There was a Arab state in Jordan and there was a Jewish state in Israel. But the Arabs could not be content with those two states. They m they decided they wanted to have won.
▶ 1:24:08And a war broke out, a war that has gone in starts and stops ever since. Now rather than call themselves Jordanians, they invented a new name, the name of Palestinians, to try to imply a third state should be created. Um, and in 1967, that war that started in 1948 continued and Israel won territory back from the Jordanians. Now, in the United States, when we fought wars and we have won territory, we generally keep it. And that's typically the the way the world works.
▶ 1:24:38But somehow when it comes to Israel and it comes to the Jews, when they win a war that they don't start, somehow it is they are supposed to give back the land that they have thus won. But nonetheless, Israel has gone along with this fiction and tried to create not a second state, but a third state. It was tried in 2005 in Gaza when not only did Israel make Gaza Yuden, they not only removed every living Jew from Gaza, they dug up dead Jews to take them away.
▶ 1:25:07And they said, "Here you go, Gaza. Enjoy your border with Egypt. Enjoy your access to the ocean. Go live long. Prosper. turn yourself into a a Dubai or UAE. And we saw how that worked out. Water pipes instead of being used to make water were turned into rockets. Concrete instead of being used to create schools were turned in to tunnels. So despite the fact there effectively was a third state, the state of Gaza, um we saw how that turned out.
▶ 1:25:35And so now we're faced with what do we do in Judea and Samaria? A place I would note in Judea was the first capital of Israel in Shilo when Moses well Moses didn't make it across when everybody else made it across. That's where they ended up. And again in Hebrron where the most important people in the Jewish faith are buried. This is where the Jewish people come from. But somehow what do we do with this area now?
▶ 1:26:00And so I think about the um the segregation that I saw the first time I went to Judea and Samaria. And I'd like to read you from a sign. We hear about the apartheid state of Israel. And it is partly true. There is apartheid in Israel.
▶ 1:26:15I want to tell you as I was driving through um as I was driving through Judea and Samaria, a sign that I saw, I can't find it real quick, but it basically said in this area Jews may not This is a part of the West Bank, Judea and Samaria, whatever you want to call it. And the sign literally says in English, in Hebrew, and in Arabic, Jews may not go here.
▶ 1:26:43I'm not aware of anywhere that is controlled by Israel where they say Arabs cannot go, where they say Christians cannot go. So my question, I guess, to you, Mr. line is when you are dealing with a group of people who continually call for the destruction of the state of Israel who who are okay with signs that say Jews may not enter these areas. We want to be free of Jews. How do you make peace with that?
▶ 1:27:11How do you create a long-term solution with that? Or is there another way that we have to go? Of course, the reason Jews are not permitted to go there is because there's a huge likelihood that they'll be murdered by Arabs who live there. Arabs can walk anywhere they want. There's no problem, no danger. I'll say something that really the president of Egypt first said, Al- Cisi. He said there needs to be a reformation of Islam.
▶ 1:27:38a reformation of Islam which uh accepts Israel as a Jewish state, which no longer promotes violence and terrorism, which so many of the imams promote and nobody wants to talk about. They're afraid of being called
▶ 1:27:55I'm not afraid of that.
▶ 1:27:56And and and there has to be a re as as President Trump demanded, a reformation of of the Palestinian Authority. And we should be demanding now, not say now I hear rumors that they're going to wait two years for them to disarm. They have to disarm right now. Hamas, they have to they have to know they're going to get nothing unless they start transforming their ways.
▶ 1:28:17Thank you. Has to be a reformation really of of Islam.
▶ 1:28:20And as my time comes to an end, I would simply say this. I don't know how you make peace with those who seek your destruction. I think you destroy them first. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield Thank uh the witnesses. I do want to recognize uh two distinguished uh members uh from Israel that are here from Judea and Samaria. Governor Yosi Dan and Governor Israel Gans. Thank you both for being here today.
▶ 1:28:50Uh I want to thank all of our witnesses. Uh the ranking member does not want to proceed with the second round of questioning so we will uh adjourn the hearing. Uh but I want to thank all of you for your valuable uh testimony. Uh the members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witness and we will ask you to respond to these in writing. Pursuant to committee rules, all members may have 5 days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the record subject to the length limitations.
▶ 1:29:20Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.