▶ 0:04:52E subcommittee on energy and minerals resources will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recess of the subcommittee at any time. Under committee rule four f any oral opening statements at hearings are limited to the chairman and the ranking minority member. I ask unanimous consent that the gentlewoman from nevada, miss lee, be allowed to participate in today's hearing. The gentlewoman from utah, miss maloy, be allowed to participate in today's hearing.
▶ 0:05:19And the gentleman from utah, doctor kennedy, be allowed to participate in today's hearing. Without objection. So ordered. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. Thank you all for being here today to discuss this important bipartisan slate of legislation. As you know, the united states has reached a critical juncture in real time. We are witnessing unprecedented, skyrocketing energy demand. And in the coming years, this demand is only expected to grow as we compete against china.
▶ 0:05:46When the ai arms race and reshore manufacturing, we must move quickly to bring gigawatts of new reliable power online. As we saw earlier this year when we visited energy's cape station project and held a corresponding field hearing in utah, baseload geothermal power has incredible potential to help meet our growing energy needs.
▶ 0:06:10In fact, according to a recent study from the us geological survey, the great basin region alone hosts approximately 135gw of geothermal potential. Unfortunately, cumbersome leasing and permitting practices on federal lands have prolonged project timelines and increased costs for geothermal developers.
▶ 0:06:31As we've seen with other forms of energy operating on public lands, the permitting process for geo geothermal is mirrored by duplicative requirements and lengthy regulatory delays. Federal geothermal projects must complete up to six stages of national environmental policy act, or nepa review, throughout the development process. This can take up to ten years, and that doesn't include endless cycles of frivolous litigation.
▶ 0:07:00The bills we have before us today will help geothermal power to power to scale up and reach its full potential. First, h.r. 301, the geothermal energy opportunity act, or the geo act introduced. Introduced by representative malloy, simply requires the bureau of land management, or blm, to do their job by continuing to process geothermal permits and authorize authorizations unless the federal court says otherwise.
▶ 0:07:25During the previous administration, blm stopped processing permits and authorizations for geothermal and oil and gas projects based solely on the threat of litigation. This delaying tactic is oftentimes meant to appease radical special interest groups, who wish to stop all energy development on federal lands. H.r.
▶ 0:07:46398, the geothermal cost recovery authority act introduced by representative ocasio-cortez, would allow the blm to levy fees on geothermal operators to offset permitting costs. H.r.
▶ 0:08:02177, the streamlining thermal energy through advanced mechanisms act, or the steam act, introduced by representative lee, would expedite development by extending categorical exclusions available to oil and gas activities, to geothermal development on certain lands. The steam act would also allow for blm to grant a categorical exclusion for geothermal drilling.
▶ 0:08:24In instances where an area has had a previous environmental document approved for drilling for the area within the last five years, h.r. 1687, the permitting leases for energy access now act, or the clean act introduced by representative fulcher, is a bill that is essential to bolstering geothermal energy production. It would require the blm to hold annual lease sales rather than every other year.
▶ 0:08:48And most importantly, it imposes deadlines to ensure the blm and department of the interior to ensure these projects actually get online. This past october, blm held a lease sale in nevada that brought in a record setting $9.4 million in bids. Given that a vast majority of our geothermal resources are under federal lands, along with the increased interest in leasing these areas, it's imperative to increase the frequency of lease sales. H.r.
▶ 0:09:205576, the enhancing geothermal production on federal lands act, also introduced by representative fulcher, would streamline the permitting process for geothermal exploration wells that have a footprint of less than eight acres. In addition, it would also require the department of the interior to designate geothermal leasing priorities. Areas on federal lands. H.r.
▶ 0:09:415587, the harnessing energy act, thermal sources act, or the heats act introduced by representative kim, is a common sense piece of legislation that would alleviate the blm from having to permit geothermal wells on state and private lands, where the federal government holds an ownership interest of less than 50% of geothermal estate. H.r.
▶ 0:09:595617, the geothermal gold book development act, introduced by ranking member ansari, would provide guidance to agency staff by requiring blm to publish best practices for geothermal leasing and permitting h.r.
▶ 0:10:145631, the geothermal ombudsman for national deployment and optimal reviews act, introduced by representative hurd from colorado, would help to reduce permitting timelines and build key institutional expertise across blm field offices.
▶ 0:10:31The bill would appoint the geothermal ombudsman from within blm, tasked with coordinating between offices and assisting expert personnel from across doi to assist with approvals as part of a newly formed geothermal permitting task force. Lastly, h.r.
▶ 0:10:465638, the geothermal royalty reform act, introduced by representative kennedy of utah, provides a much needed fix to the royalty system for geothermal energy, ensuring fair cost distribution for new geothermal facilities on federal land. These bills are an important step towards ending regulatory inefficiencies and unleashing geothermal energy on federal lands.
▶ 0:11:11If enacted, geothermal developers will benefit from greater certainty needed to spur investment in research, development, exploration and production. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on these important bills, and I will now yield to the ranking member for her opening statement, representative ansari. >> thank you, chair stauber. Good morning, everyone, and thank you to our witnesses for joining us here today. We've been waiting a long time for this hearing, and I'm very, very glad to see that it's happening today.
▶ 0:11:40We're here today to discuss nine bills on geothermal energy development, including my bill, the geothermal gold book development act. I'm encouraged that there continues to be such united, bipartisan support for geothermal, even as other forms of clean energy come under attack from this administration. Attacks on clean energy are costing americans, crushing the most affordable energy available and killing hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs across the country.
▶ 0:12:08It's intensifying the climate crisis, which costs americans billions per year, and rising insurance prices, skyrocketing utility bills to keep up with stronger heat waves and cold snaps, and ballooning disaster recovery costs. We must rapidly and responsibly scale up renewable energy to bring down prices for americans and keep america competitive. Geothermal energy is a critical part of that mix.
▶ 0:12:37Geothermal provides 24 over seven carbon free energy and creates good jobs in the clean energy economy. Many of the skills needed for geothermal development are directly transferable from industries like oil and gas. For decades, geothermal was confined to naturally occurring hot water reservoirs, but recent technological breakthroughs have created next generation geothermal systems that can be deployed in a wide range of conditions at competitive prices.
▶ 0:13:06At this rate of innovation, cheap next generation geothermal could soon be possible all across the country, not in decades, but in the next five years. This could be truly transformational for our for our energy system. Paired with wind and solar, geothermal can help us break free from fossil fuels and build a reliable homegrown energy system. We need to fight climate change and tackle the affordability crisis.
▶ 0:13:30The bipartisan bills we are discussing today are important steps to help next generation geothermal build out more quickly and scale up at the pace that we need. Geothermal was the first type of renewable energy sited on us public lands back in 1978, and right now nearly 70% of geothermal energy capacity is on federally managed bureau of land management lands.
▶ 0:13:56But today, geothermal still only makes up less than 1% of the energy mix in the united states. We have a lot of scaling up to do, and we need to have a permitting system to support that. I'm happy to support many of the bills on the agenda today, and I really do support the intent of all of them. Thank you. >> thank the ranking member for your statement. We'll now begin our member panel to allow bill sponsors to speak on their legislation.
▶ 0:14:24And I will begin by recognizing myself for two bills, h.r. 1687, the clean act, and also h.r. 5576, enhancing geothermal production on federal lands act. First of all, the h.r. 1687, the clean act, amends the geothermal steam act to require annual lease sales for geothermal energy. Currently, the act requires a lease sale every two years.
▶ 0:14:53Securing american energy independence should be a top priority for congress. Geothermal is a renewable power source that can help us accomplish that goal. My home state of idaho already plays a leading role in geothermal energy production, and I'm proud to introduce this bill to further unleash its potential as a reliable base load and storage energy source. To begin developing geothermal resources on federally controlled lands, which, by the way, is a dominant in the western part of the country, including in my state, projects must first obtain a lease.
▶ 0:15:2190% of viable geothermal resources are estimated to be located on these federally controlled lands, making consistently sales crucial to the expansion of this energy source. Geothermal is proven clean and efficient means to provide baseload, reliable power to residents in rural areas. Prioritizing geothermal exploration of federal lands will increase certainty for domestic companies looking to explore for geothermal resources, while still requiring a full ea if the resources provide promising.
▶ 0:15:49So predictability is a big part of this goal. It's difficult to capitalize without that. Thank you for your time and consideration of h.r. 1687. I look forward to it moving through committee process. And I thank you on to h.r. 5576, the enhancing geothermal production on federal lands act. My bill, h.r.
▶ 0:16:105005 76, the enhancing geothermal production on federal lands act, amends the geothermal steam act of 1970 to promote timely exploration for geothermal resources under geothermal leases. Geothermal projects are federally managed and are federally managed. Land may be subject to an environmental review process under nepa, as many as six times as geothermal projects require separate environmental reviews at every phase of development.
▶ 0:16:35This bill streamlines that process, reducing unnecessary barriers and unlocking new opportunities to develop this clean, reliable energy source. And it does that through the categorical categorical exclusion process. H.r. 5576 also requires the secretary of interior to designate geothermal leasing priority areas on federal land. My bill will help speed up the permitting process in order to access those geothermal benefits. I thank you for your consideration of h.r. 5576.
▶ 0:17:12Miss ansari, I recognize you for your testimony on your bill. >> thank you. Chair. As I mentioned, my bill, the geothermal gold book development act, was an idea that came out of conversations with geothermal developers who have had a range of experience with different field offices throughout the permitting processes. We've heard that some field offices do a great job with holding lease sales. Others are highly efficient at permitting, but not always both.
▶ 0:17:40We've also heard that often staff will learn everything they need to know about geothermal development on federal land and then be transferred to a different office, maybe to work on oil and gas. And then the office loses its institutional knowledge and expertise. That's, of course, on top of the staffing challenges that our federal agencies are facing right now across the board.
▶ 0:17:59So my bill directs the department of interior, in consultation with other agencies, to identify standard procedures and guidelines for efficient and environmentally responsible geothermal leasing and permitting, within one year of enactment, 180 days after that, the department of interior is directed to publish a gold book containing those procedures for use by field offices and developers.
▶ 0:18:27Before publishing the gold book, interior is directed to consult with other relevant federal agencies and stakeholders like the developers who are here today. Other experts impacted communities to identify best practices. The bureau of land management has had a gold book for oil and gas for years.
▶ 0:18:43This is not a new concept, as we look toward a massive scale up of geothermal, it will be essential to have all of our expertise and institutional knowledge written down and in one place, so we can all be on the same page and working in a transparent and efficient manner. I'm grateful to the majority for working with me on this bill and including it on today's hearing, and I look forward to getting it marked up, passed on the floor, and signed into law so that we can help make a real difference.
▶ 0:19:12I yield back. >> I thank the gentleman for the gentlewoman, for her testimony. And I recognize Mr. jeff hurd from colorado for testimony on his bill. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman, and good morning. I really appreciate the opportunity to hold today's hearing for and for including my bill, h.r. 5631, the geothermal ombudsman for national deployment and optimal reviews act. That's quite a mouthful, but it's a good bill.
▶ 0:19:42Geothermal energy has an enormous potential to strengthen american security, grid reliability, and economic growth. It is domestic. It's firm. It's, uh, available 24 over seven. It can power military installations, support data centers and advanced manufacturing, and help meet rapidly growing electricity demand without relying on foreign supply chains. What's holding geothermal back today isn't geology. It isn't technology. It's process.
▶ 0:20:09Permitting on federal lands is fragmented across dozens of blm field offices, with uneven experience in limited mechanisms for coordination. As geothermal expands into new regions, some offices may only see one project in a decade, while others handle many.
▶ 0:20:24That reality leads to inconsistent timelines, duplicative requirements, and avoidable delays not because standards are too high, but because expertise is unevenly distributed and there's no clear way to resolve bottlenecks once they once they arise. H.r. 5006 31 is designed to address that institutional gap. This bill does not waive environmental review.
▶ 0:20:47It does not mandate approvals, and it does not lower substantive standards under nepa, esa or other laws. Instead, it simply focuses on execution. It creates a geothermal ombudsman within blm to coordinate across field offices, resolve disputes, track permitting progress, and deploy technical expertise where it's needed most through a dedicated permitting task force. In short, it helps the system work the way congress expects it to work.
▶ 0:21:15Several of the bills we're considering today. Establish timelines. Clarify leasing requirements or standardized procedures. My bill complements all of those efforts by ensuring agencies actually have the capacity and coordination necessary to meet those expectations in practice, standards without execution do not deliver results.
▶ 0:21:34I appreciate that the blm has expressed support for the concept of a geothermal permit task force, and is offered constructive suggestions, including coordination with other surface managing agencies like the forest service. I look forward to working with the department to to refine this legislation and ensure it integrates smoothly into existing operations.
▶ 0:21:55If we are serious about unlocking geothermal potential, about moving projects from promise to actual production, congress has to address not just what the rules are, but how they are carried out day to day. H.r. 5006 31 is a practical, targeted step in that direction. I look forward to the testimony from our witnesses and to a thoughtful discussion about how we can get this right. And with that, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> I thank the gentleman for his testimony.
▶ 0:22:22I now recognize miss susie lee from nevada for her testimony on her bill. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Ranking member, and thank you, uh, Mr. raab, for being here. Uh, our own blm director from the state of nevada who's done an incredible job. So thank you for being here. Um, particularly at this time, uh, it can feel like congress doesn't agree on much, if anything. Uh, but today's hearing is a standout in a good way.
▶ 0:22:50Geothermal energy is uniting the right, left and center. And as well as congress and the administration to take our country forward together. In fact, the energy secretary has called geothermal, quote, just an awesome resource that's under our feet. And that's an understatement, in my opinion.
▶ 0:23:11Within the next 25 years, the department of energy estimates that the us could affordably capture enough of our geothermal resources to power the equivalent of more than 65 million homes. My home state of nevada has long been one of the top geothermal producers in the country, and next generation geothermal technology stands to broaden geothermal energy production from coast to coast.
▶ 0:23:38But there's a problem excessive, expensive and uneven government red tape. As the nonpartisan congressional research services emphasize, next generation generation, geothermal permitting process processes result in the development timelines longer than any other power production product projects.
▶ 0:24:00Accordingly, I'm able to, uh, be able to present today not only my bipartisan, bicameral bill, the steam act, to kind to finally cut through some of this red tape, but also uplift two bipartisan bills from my republican colleagues that I'm pleased to co-lead, the geo act and the clean act, the steam act we introduced, I introduced together with celeste maloy, who's here today, is very straightforward.
▶ 0:24:26Since the enactment two decades ago of the energy policy act, the oil and gas industry has been able to fast track energy exploration and development on previously disturbed and studied public lands. The steam act would simply extend that same flexibility to geothermal, leveling the playing field with oil and gas.
▶ 0:24:49For this promising and proven 24 over seven clean energy source, this bill passed the house by a voice vote last year and, uh, with our own chairman of natural resources encouraging, uh, republicans and democrats alike to support it. So I ask the same of my colleagues and appreciate your continued consideration.
▶ 0:25:10Uh, similarly, the geo act, which I likewise championed with celeste maloy, has also passed the house by voice last year and is another common sense reform requiring the doe to process permits under existing geothermal leases within 60 days of completing the required federal analyzes.
▶ 0:25:33As committee democrats previously put it, this bill would support the efficient approval of geothermal permit applications without sacrificing thorough review. Finally, the clean act reintroduced this congress by my colleague from idaho, uh representative russ fulcher.
▶ 0:25:54After passing the house on a bipartisan basis last november, would further accelerate geothermal permitting and require the department of interior to hold a lease geothermal lease sale at least once a year in states with federally managed resources. This would change from the status quo, where the geo. The department of energy is currently required to do these lease sales just once every two years in relevant states.
▶ 0:26:24While nevada has been a model here with director rabies, blm nevada state office already holding competitive sales annually, other states have lagged behind given both the abundance and nearly limitless potential of our domestic geothermal resources.
▶ 0:26:42I share representative fulcher's enthusiasm for more expeditiously tapping into this promising heat beneath our feet and advancing america's energy independence. And with that, I thank you again, Mr. chairman, and I yield. >> I thank the gentleman for gentlewoman, for her testimony, and now recognize miss celeste maloy from utah for her testimony on her bill. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:27:06The geo act represents a simple but critical reform when a geothermal project completes all required environmental reviews and receives approval, the federal government should issue permits within 60 days period. It's that simple. No more indefinite delays based on litigation threats that haven't resulted in any court findings of wrongdoing. This isn't about cutting corners on environmental protection. It's about ending an absurd practice.
▶ 0:27:32Sometimes projects that have already cleared nepa, esa and every other federal requirement sit idle for years because of the threat of a lawsuit. Utah is the nation's third largest producer of geothermal energy, behind only california and nevada. We have the resources, we have the expertise, and we have the workforce ready to lead america's geothermal future. What we lack is clear, efficient and predictable.
▶ 0:27:55Permitting at our field hearing in cedar city, utah this past may, we heard directly from industry leaders about these delays. As tim latimer, the ceo of energy, um, testified, who we'll hear from later today. He said at the time, 90% of geothermal resources lie on federal land, but permitting can take up to a decade for geothermal projects far longer than wind, solar and oil and gas projects for energy's cape station in beaver county, utah, is an example of what's possible.
▶ 0:28:24When we get permitting right, the project is positioned to become the second largest enhanced geothermal development worldwide, with two gigawatts of permitted capacity by 2026. The first hundred megawatts will come online with an additional 400mw following by 2028. That's half a gigawatt of baseload power within the next three years. If we can maintain the permitting momentum.
▶ 0:28:44What makes cape station particularly exciting for utah is how it leverages our state's existing oil and gas expertise the same workers, the same drilling techniques, the same supply chain applied to a different form of energy production while creating long term local employment in a rural county that really needs the jobs fervor has shown. It just takes two days, two days to retrain an oil and gas worker for a geothermal rig. This isn't about choosing between traditional energy jobs and renewable energy.
▶ 0:29:13It's about using the skills we've developed over decades to lead the next generation of american energy dominance. It's truly an all of the above approach. The local economic impact is almost as important as the energy production that we need nationwide. These are high paying jobs that support families, generate tax revenue for rural counties, and create demand for local services and suppliers.
▶ 0:29:35When I visited the cape station site, I met with workers who told me this project means they can stay in their communities, communities where I've spent a lot of my life and where I know how important these family supporting jobs are. That's the kind of economic development rural utah needs. Utah's april blm auction brought in $5.6 million for just 14 parcels.
▶ 0:29:56That demonstrates market demand, but that potential revenue and the jobs and energy security it could represent mean nothing if permitting languishes on a desk due to litigation. Threats that never materialize materialize into actual court victories. Us energy demand is rising rapidly and will continue to do so due to data centers, ai, advanced manufacturing and national security needs. Mr. chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter a clear path report.
▶ 0:30:21Finding the outdated federal permitting, not technology or financing, is the top barrier to scaling reliable geothermal energy nationwide. >> without objection. >> thank you. The geo act is common sense. It maintains every environmental safeguard while requiring the federal government to act on completed applications. I urge my colleagues to support this obvious reform that will unlock baseload american energy, create american jobs, and strengthen american security. Thank you, and I look forward to hearing the testimony of the witnesses. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 0:30:52>> I thank the gentleman for her testimony and recognize doctor mike kennedy from utah for his testimony on his bill. >> thank you, chairman stauber, and ranking member and members of the committee, for having me here today to speak on my bill, the geothermal royalty reform act. Across the west, energy demand is accelerating while reliable generation struggles to keep pace. And utah is no exception. Utah is one of the fastest growing states in the nation. According to current projections. We are on track to add roughly 2 million people over the next 40 years.
▶ 0:31:16And like many fast growing states, that growth raises a fundamental question how will our energy sector keep up with demand? When supply falls behind demand, energy becomes more expensive and less reliable, and working families feel it first. Utah's already experiencing sharp increases in energy demand, alongside growing concerns about rising energy costs. That brings us to the central challenge before this committee.
▶ 0:31:40How do we increase reliable power generation fast enough to meet demand while keeping energy affordable for the people we represent? Geothermal energy should be a central part of that answer. Utah is uniquely positioned to lead in geothermal development. We sit on some of the most promising geothermal resources in the country. Geothermal power is reliable, dispatchable, and available 24 hours a day. It does not depend on weather conditions and it strengthens grid resilience rather than straining it.
▶ 0:32:07Just as important, geothermal energy offers long term price stability. Once a geothermal facility is built, operating costs are predictable and largely insulated from fuel price volatility. That stability matters for utilities planning decades ahead, and it matters for families and small businesses that cannot absorb sudden spikes in monthly energy bills. Despite these clear advantages, the geothermal is treated differently from other energy sources in ways that do not reflect either its risk profile or its public benefits.
▶ 0:32:37Developers face high upfront costs, long exploration timelines, and significant uncertainty only to encounter royalty structures that discourage investment and delay projects that could otherwise move forward. The geothermal royalty reform act addresses this problem directly and responsibly. This legislation modernizes geothermal royalty rates to better align with the realities of development.
▶ 0:32:56It promotes fairness for taxpayers and energy producers, reduces red tape, drives growth by lowering unnecessary costs, and provides greater certainty that projects that projects can reach commercial operation without being priced out before they deliver power to the grid. This is not about picking winners, it is about removing an outdated disincentive that prevents a proven, reliable energy source from contributing fully to our nation's energy security.
▶ 0:33:23Accelerating geothermal deployment means adding baseload power precisely when our grid needs it most. It means reducing reliance on higher cost peak generation, and it means protecting ratepayers from the kind of price volatility that disproportionately harms low income households, seniors and rural communities. Federal policy should be helping states like utah close their energy gaps, not making it harder to bring reliable power online. This bill does exactly that.
▶ 0:33:48It strengthens domestic energy production, makes better use of public lands, and supports technologies that enhance grid reliability while keeping costs down for consumers. At a time when we are asking more of our electric grid than ever before, we cannot afford to leave reliable resources on the table. Geothermal energy is ready now. The technology exists, the resource exists. What has been missing is a regulatory framework that allows it to compete on fair terms. The geothermal royalty reform act moves us in that direction.
▶ 0:34:18I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about how this legislation can help unlock geothermal potential, strengthen grid reliability, and ensure that energy remains affordable for utah families and communities across the country. Thank you, Mr. chairman. With that, I yield back. >> I thank the gentleman for his testimony. We will now begin our second panel, which is comprised of one witness. Let me remind the witness that under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes, but their entire statement will appear in the hearing record.
▶ 0:34:48To begin your testimony, please press the on button on the microphone. We use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green. At the end of five minutes, the light will turn red and I will ask you to please complete your statement. I'll allow the witness to testify before member questioning. Our witness for this panel is doctor john raby. He is the nevada state director of the bureau of land management and is stationed in reno, nevada. Mr. raab, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you.
▶ 0:35:13Chairman, ranking member ansari and members of the subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to provide testimony on the nine geothermal bills before you today. My name is john raab, and I'm the state director for the bureau of land management in nevada, an agency where I've had the pleasure to work for over 30 years. The blm is responsible for geothermal leasing on 245 million acres of public lands and 700 million acres of subsurface mineral estate. These resources are essential to achieving american energy dominance.
▶ 0:35:40They're responsible development, strengthens our economy, bolsters national defense, and supports emerging technologies that will power our future. Every day, the blm works to ensure that we manage these resources in a way that promotes energy development, reduces the federal deficit, and generates revenue for the american taxpayers, while also protecting our lands, wildlife and water resources. Geothermal energy plays an important role in this strategy. Geothermal energy has been referred to as the quiet giant of american energy.
▶ 0:36:09It provides steady, reliable baseload power, and it is abundant across the western united states. Today, geothermal energy supports electricity generation, aquaculture, industrial heating and direct use applications. Geothermal resources provide the type of reliable and strategically important energy development. The department seeks to accelerate, supporting both national defense and domestic energy resilience.
▶ 0:36:33Expanding geothermal production helps stabilize the grid, increases domestic energy security, and reduces the reliance on foreign energy sources. The blm currently manages 569 geothermal leases, covering roughly 1.2 million acres. 51 geothermal power plants operate on 85 of those leases in nevada, california, utah and new mexico, with approximately 2600mw of installed generating capacity.
▶ 0:36:58In fiscal year 2025, every state office with geothermal interest held a lease sale, resulting in 327,000 acres leased. Geothermal energy production on public lands generated over $33 million for taxpayers in fiscal year 2025, and these results reflect the administration's strong commitment to expanding energy production on public lands. The bills on today's agenda align with the goals of executive order 14156 and secretarial order three four and one seven, which address our nation's national energy emergency.
▶ 0:37:28The administration has made it clear that energy security is national security and accelerating the development of reliable domestic energy sources is essential. Removing delays and unnecessary burdens is a critical part of these efforts. Several bills on the agenda, including, include provisions aimed at improving the geothermal permitting process. The blm supports h.r. 3001, h.r. 1077, and h.r.
▶ 0:37:515587, and their goals of a predictable and timely permitting process and reducing duplicative permitting. These changes will help expedite geothermal development on public lands. The blm also supports the goals of h.r. 1687 and h.r. 5576, which target the geothermal leasing process. We look forward to working with the sponsor of h.r. 1687 to address timeframes for all necessary federal permits. The blm would also like to work with the sponsors of h.r.
▶ 0:38:205576 to ensure that priority areas retain flexibility to match evolving industry demand. H.r. 398 and h.r. 5638 address revenues collected for geothermal development on public lands. The blm supports the goals of h.r. 398, and believes that any fees imposed on an applicant should be structured in a way that further encourages this development, while supporting a sustainable and responsive permitting process through the cost recovery. The blm also supports h.r.
▶ 0:38:495638 goals of tying royalty payments to the production output of the of the facility as a means of encouraging efficiency and productivity. Finally, the blm supports the goals of h.r. 5617 to create clear and consistent standards and procedures, and would like to discuss options to include aspects of geothermal development into existing guidance. The blm additionally supports the creation of a geothermal permitting task force presented an h.r. 5631.
▶ 0:39:14Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I look forward to your questions. >> Mr. thank you for your testimony. The chair will now recognize members for five minutes of questions. I now recognize congressman crank from colorado for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I appreciate the opportunity.
▶ 0:39:31Uh, in oil and gas development benefits, uh, from certain categorical exclusions or cat access under nepa, while geothermal, despite using many of the same drilling technologies and and methods, has largely been unable to take advantage of those exclusions.
▶ 0:39:52According to recent department of energy analysis, geothermal energy could provide up to 10% of us electricity by 2050 if barriers to development are addressed. Geothermal is reliable, it's 24 over seven baseload power, and it has a significant smaller land footprint than other renewable sources, using roughly 70% less land than wind and nearly 90% less land than solar.
▶ 0:40:19The sector's made major technological advances, particularly by leveraging innovations developed in the oil and gas industry, including advanced drilling techniques and subsurface modeling. Yet despite being clean, reliable and efficient, geothermal currently plays only a very small role in the us electric grid.
▶ 0:40:43The energy information administration reports that geothermal accounts for approximately 0.4% of us electricity generation today, even though national laboratories estimates suggest that the united states has thousands of gigawatts of geothermal resource potential. In other words, we have a vast domestic energy resource literally beneath our feet, but we're not fully utilizing it.
▶ 0:41:13In 2019, doe published the geovision analysis, which identified permitting and project development timelines as major barriers to geothermal deployment. That report found geothermal projects can take 7 to 10 years to develop and may trigger multiple rounds of nepa review, sometimes up to six separate reviews over the life of a project.
▶ 0:41:36By contrast, congress already recognized that certain oil and gas exploration and drilling activities of limited size and surface disturbance warrant categorical exclusions, and in the energy policy act of 2005, congress directed interior to establish those exclusions. So, Mr.
▶ 0:41:58Raab, has the department undertaken a systematic review of existing categorical exclusions at other agencies that could be applied to geothermal exploration or development on federal lands? >> thank you, representative crank. And yes, um, the department of interior, bureau of land management, we have undertaken a thorough review, um, within the last, um, 11 months.
▶ 0:42:22And, uh, early on in this administration, we, uh, we adopted, uh, over 120, uh, new categorical exclusions from other agencies, including two geothermal, um, and one, uh, we adopted from the us forest service and one from the department of navy. Um, those have helped us, um, and they have not gone far enough. We would like to see additional categorical exclusions provided to help us go further.
▶ 0:42:51>> so in the steam act would extend to geothermal projects, the same type of categorical categorical exclusions that congress directed interior to establish for limited oil and gas exploration activities. Uh, in the energy policy act of 2005, projects of similar size, surface disturbance and duration.
▶ 0:43:11Um, from the department's perspective, what's the expected time frame for establishing or applying a categorical exclusion for geothermal exploration of this scale if directed by by congress? >> thank you, representative crank. And, um, you know, if, uh, if we were directed by congress to develop a new categorical exclusion, um, our estimate is that would take us between 60 and 90 days, um, to complete. And we would look forward to that opportunity.
▶ 0:43:42>> and then separately, under current practice, uh, when a geothermal project qualifies for an existing categorical exclusion, what is the typical timeline for blm, uh, to process and approve that categorical exclusion from application to decision? >> thank you. Representative. And generally speaking, um, the expectation is for a categorical exclusion that that is completed within 1 to 2 weeks, but certainly less than 30 days.
▶ 0:44:08Um, we, uh, we have some unique circumstances, um, and want to make sure that we're expediting those as quickly as possible. >> so obviously, given blm's extensive history of nepa analysis and documentation for oil and gas drilling and exploration, would you agree that, uh, implementing a categorical categorical exclusion for geothermal, whether under the stem act or through other legislation, should not require the agency really to start from scratch?
▶ 0:44:40>> representative craig, um, that is correct. We we should not be starting from scratch and would not we would build upon the work that we've already completed. >> thank you. Mr. >> thank the gentleman. Thanks. Gentleman from colorado. The chair now recognizes the ranking member, miss ansari, for five minutes. >> thank you. Mr. thank you so much for being here and for your many years of service to the federal government and the bureau of land management. Uh, while I have you, could you please tell me in your region, have you processed or approved any permits for wind or solar projects in the last six months?
▶ 0:45:13>> thank you, representative ansari, for the question. And we have continued to work through the permitting process for, um, the applications we do have in front of us. Um, and in nevada, uh, we have predominantly solar applications, um, and, and very few wind applications. Um, we continue to undertake actions to review those, um, consistent with the department's um, july 15th memo. And those are continued to be under review.
▶ 0:45:42>> if you could, um, follow up with more information in writing about that, it would be really appreciated. Um, as I'm sure you know, the republican governor of nevada, governor lombardo, sent a letter to secretary burgum requesting clarity and movement on permits for several large scale solar projects that would provide low cost, clean energy to the state. Can you please share any updates you may have on progress on those particular projects? >> um, thank you, ranking member I'm sorry for the question.
▶ 0:46:10And, um, of course, uh, you know, our secretary has high standards for review, um, when it comes to, uh, any, any projects, um, that we are undertaking, um, those projects continue to be under review. I'm optimistic and believe that, um, uh, projects that will provide reliable baseload power, um, will be approved in the near future, and those will continue to be, um, under under the subject of review, um, as we go forward. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:46:38Raby, as I'm sure you've experienced over the years, permitting, offices function best when they are staffed fully, of course, and when staff have the proper expertise. Can you tell us how many staff members nevada field offices have lost in the last six months? >> um, thank you for the question again, ranking member ansari. And, um, I'll say this.
▶ 0:46:59Our, uh, we've had quite a number of employees that took advantage of, um, opportunities for, um, uh, early departure of the agency. And, uh, we have a dual mandate of government efficiency and mission delivery. And while we celebrated the careers of many, uh, employees within our state, um, we honored them. Uh, and we have, um, celebrated their careers.
▶ 0:47:27We also celebrate, um, the folks that we have on board with us today who are going to continue to do the good work of this administration, the department and the bureau. Um, so we have continued to focus on, uh, what we do for, um, efficient operations. Um, and that's come through the form of regulatory reform and, and the focus on, uh, permitting efficiencies. >> for the for the folks that you've lost, have you been able to hire to fill those positions?
▶ 0:47:55>> um, we are working through a process right now of, um, reviewing our needs, um, in the form of staffing plans. Um, those will be developed by each of our bureaus and, um, rolled up into a staffing strategy for the department, um, which will be reviewed by omb and opm. Um, and so we're looking forward to seeing those staffing plans, um, finalized and reviewed.
▶ 0:48:19>> and continuing on the theme of permitting capacity, can you expand on what the geothermal cost recovery act might geothermal gold book development act, and the creation of a geothermal ombudsman? Ombudsman means for blm's geothermal permitting capacity? >> uh, yes. Thank you, ranking member. And sorry. And taking first the cost recovery um, bill proposal that would allow us to do much like we do in mining.
▶ 0:48:44Um, when we mine permitting, where we are able to enter into agreements with proponents, um, to, uh, develop cost recovery agreements that can fund, um, aspects of permitting that, uh, help to expedite and move at the pace that proponents, um, would like to see, um, having a gold book, um, and incorporating geothermal explicitly into that gold book would provide a one stop reference for all of our field offices to utilize and for our operators to utilize as well.
▶ 0:49:14That would create efficiencies. And the ombudsman program proposal, um, along with the task force, um, you know, we can incorporate that into our existing operations. It provides a singular point of focus to help work through, uh, the options, um, for permitting across state boundaries as well as district and field office boundaries. >> thank you so much, I yield back. >> I thank the gentlelady. I now recognize myself for five minutes. Mr.
▶ 0:49:41Raab, earlier this year, the blm received a record 9.4 million in bids from a geothermal lease sale in nevada. We've touched on that, but do you see there being a substantial increase in interest in leasing on federal lands through annual lease sales versus every two years? >> and thank you, Mr. chairman. And absolutely, we would see increased demand. There is the demand currently.
▶ 0:50:06And having an annual lease sale would be a practical approach to ensuring we're keeping up with that demand. >> your experience. How often do exploration activities covered under h.r. 5576? That's the enhancing geothermal on federal lands bill. Uh, how often do exploration activities covered under that result in a finding of no significant impact or categorical exclusion under nepa?
▶ 0:50:37>> thank you, Mr. chairman, and 100% of of the activities that would be contemplated under that proposed legislation would none of them would rise to I mean, they'd all be below a finding of no significant impact and would be well suited for a categorical exclusion. >> okay. Thank you for that. According to a recent study from stanford university, less than 10% of the western us has been sampled for subsurface temperatures, a key marker for both eggs and conventional geothermal potential. How would the reforms in h.r.
▶ 0:51:065076 help fill in these gaps and streamline geothermal exploration on federal lands? >> again, thank you for the question, Mr. chairman. And by, uh, expediting and providing, um, again, uh, more facilitation of exploration that will absolutely fill in the gaps, um, it will facilitate and ensure that exploration activities are happening in areas with potential with, with, uh, potential that may be unknown
▶ 0:51:37At this time and would enhance our knowledge base, um, thereby increasing the potential for geothermal development across the western us. >> thank you for that. And just finally, uh, this has to do with, um, uh, the coordination between field offices, but geothermal development expands to new regions, which is certainly what we hope is going to take place.
▶ 0:51:59How will greater coordination between those field offices and development of the best practices help reduce overall the permit permitting timelines? >> yes. Thank you, Mr. chairman. And by having that enhanced coordination, um, it ensures that areas uh, in, in the us that are just now experiencing more increased demand, such as in your great state of idaho, um, would, uh, would help benefit from experience in places like nevada or utah and,
▶ 0:52:29And facilitate a more consistent approach among how, uh, how projects are analyzed as well as, um, how proponents are um, worked with across state lines as well. >> I thank you for that. Thank you for your testimony and those answers. And I, I agree, I think the potential is just huge. So those are the end of my questions. And with that, I recognize the gentlelady from nevada, miss lee, for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:52:53Uh, as I mentioned earlier during my opening comments that, uh, your office has really set the standard in terms of geothermal leasing. Um, however, I understand that the geothermal industry has sometimes had vastly different experiences with blm and doi staff across different states, and even from one field office to the other.
▶ 0:53:23Um, these inconsistencies seem most often rooted in the staff's varying levels of familiarity knowledge of geothermal. Um, you know, I agree with the ranking member. We can talk about staffing levels all day long.
▶ 0:53:38Um, but I really want to focus on, um, asking you to speak about the importance of also ensuring that, uh, the men and women who are hired are equipped with the necessary expertise to effectively serve the geothermal community, holding, uh, including carrying out any of the reforms we're discussing today. What type of expertise are you looking for in, and how have you been able to manage that?
▶ 0:54:09>> thank you, representative lee. And certainly, um, you know, the type of expertise we're looking for, um, across multiple program areas, but predominantly, um, we need expertise in, uh, in fluid minerals development, um, uh, groundwater hydrology.
▶ 0:54:23Um, and then of course, uh, between, um, the biological sciences, physical sciences, um, those are important aspects of the work we do as well for, um, what we permit as far as the surface management, um, development that occurs. So, um, that's the expertise we're looking for.
▶ 0:54:42Of course, we have, um, training programs that we, um, you know, have through our geothermal training, um, you know, as part of the basic program that we have, um, as well, and we would work to ensure that again, through, um, uh, through that training across the western us to ensure that field offices get the support they need. >> uh. Thank you. I, um, I don't have any other questions for the director.
▶ 0:55:08Um, I may have some for the other panel, but I might have to leave. But, uh, thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield. >> thank the gentlelady chair now recognizes congressman hurd for five minutes of questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. welcome. Good to see you. Does the blm currently see or let me put it this way, my read of your testimony is that the blm currently sees meaningful variation among its field offices when it comes to geothermal permitting. Is that fair to say? >> yes.
▶ 0:55:37>> um, is that with projects that are similar in scope and environmental profile? >> uh, yes. Representative hurd, um, we we do see some differences, um, in, in similarities even with similar projects. >> does the blm have any formal mechanism to temporarily transfer or assign experienced geothermal staff across offices? >> yes. Representative hurd, we absolutely do. We can, um, temporarily reassign and have the ability to provide support, um, you know, to various field offices from other states.
▶ 0:56:08>> how does that how often does that happen? >> um, I would say that happens fairly, fairly routinely. Um, it has to occur through the requesting office. So we have to know there's a need. And then once that need is known, um, we'll match up the appropriate personnel to help provide that support. >> so help me understand, how would having a single geothermal ombudsman responsible for coordination, dispute resolution, tracking, permitting, progress, progress? How would that help the blm, uh, deploy its expertise more efficiently?
▶ 0:56:38>> representative. Yes, yes it would. And we believe that by having, you know, again, that single point of contact, we could incorporate that into our existing operations and help formalize, to ensure that long term, the program continues to have that level of focus. >> so kind of building on and formalizing, uh, what's at some level happening. >> yes. That's correct. >> okay. And improving ideally the, the efficiency and operations of that. >> yes that's correct. >> good. That's what my bill is meant to, to accomplish.
▶ 0:57:06Uh, one other thing I wanted to ask about you mentioned in your testimony, including other surface managing agencies such as the forest service in the task force, in your view, um, talk to me about how that inclusion would improve coordination and predictability. Um, rather than adding delay if we do it correctly. >> yeah. Representative, thank you for the question.
▶ 0:57:28And by including the forest service up front, they can make known the unique aspects that may be on national forest system lands, um, that we have to receive consent from the surface management agency and by having them. >> um, can you give me an example like just. >> yes, representative.
▶ 0:57:45So for example, if we had nominated parcels, um, and then there was a proposal for development, um, in that area, um, along with adjacency to blm, um, we would want to develop that resource, um, similarly and, and ensure there's efficiency on both bureau of land management and national forest system lands. Got it. >> does that coordination happen right now on an informal level between forest service and blm? Or how does it currently work? >> yes, representative. It doesn't occur um informally.
▶ 0:58:14And we want to keep we would like to keep that best practice formalized. >> okay. Um, absent better coordination, will timelines continue to depend on which office has jurisdiction? >> generally speaking, um, if. >> we don't improve the process. >> if if we do not improve the process, I would say it's it's subject to again, continued mix, um, and competition with other priorities within the agencies. And so by having that formalized raise, the profile ensures that it continues to be a priority okay.
▶ 0:58:44>> so ensures the resources are being allocated in this in this direction. >> yes. That's correct okay. >> how can we measure success. Um, I mean are there any external indicia that blm or you would look to to say, yes, this ombudsman program is working correctly, that we in congress can say, yeah, this is a good bill or um, you know, good try. No result.
▶ 0:59:04Um, what what could we look to as measurable targets to see whether or not we're accomplishing the policy that we're seeking to achieve, or this policy is accomplishing the results that we're seeking to achieve. >> right. Representative, thank you for that question. Um, we can certainly follow up with more details, but in, um, but in my mind, what amounts to success are the number of permits, the length of time we would be shortening that length of time, the amount of gigawatts, megawatts that we're putting online and the amount of facilities we're permitting.
▶ 0:59:35Um, as well as, again, a measure of how effective the, you know, the service management requirements are to ensure protection of the service resources and development over time. >> I love it. Those are all great targets and also consistency among the various field offices as well. >> that's exactly right. >> okay. Wonderful. Thank you Mr. for being here. Thank you for your your testimony and for helping us and look forward to working with you on on this and the other bills that we're doing with that. Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you very much.
▶ 1:00:03The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. hoffman. >> excuse me. An important part of our clean energy mix has so far avoided some of the drama that we've seen from this administration's war on clean energy. I hope we can keep it that way. As the the representative has one of the largest geothermal plants in america in my district.
▶ 1:00:32I, I do care about this form of energy, and it only makes up one half of 1% of the electric mix electricity mix in the country. Uh, but I'm proud that we are a global leader. Uh, on innovation and next generation breakthroughs. And it's a good thing, Mr. chairman, to have a hearing focused on these subjects. So as we scale up development, it is also very important that we do it efficiently and responsibly.
▶ 1:01:02And that means ensuring that our federal agencies have the staff expertise and the right technologies at their fingertips. Uh, it also means, uh, looking for ways to get permitting done faster while maintaining safeguards to protect our public health, public lands, the environment, and the broader conception of public trust. So, uh, Mr. raab, uh, I'm glad that you're here.
▶ 1:01:27I want to take advantage of your years of expertise and experience overseeing permitting processes and really try to understand in practice how some of the changes that the legislation we're considering today would play out. Um, so could you briefly explain what types of actions generally qualify for categorical exclusions under nepa, and how do agencies determine that certain activities can be categorically excluded from review?
▶ 1:01:59>> thank you, representative huffman. And certainly, um, for categorically excluded activities. They generally, again, do not rise to the level of any sort of significance. Um, they are generally I would characterize them as activities that may be considered routine maintenance, types of activities, um, you know, actions that are in areas that have already been previously either drilled or, um, you know, developed, um, that would generally characterize the types of activities that fall
▶ 1:02:29Under categorical exclusions. Um, the way we determine that is by doing a thorough review of our nepa record. Um, and what I mean by that is environmental assessments. Um, that may be, um, uh, tied to similar types of activities and determining whether those rose to a level of significance. And once we have done that body of work, um, we then determine, um, a whether an activity is suitable for, uh, being categorically excluded under nepa.
▶ 1:02:57>> and then I think one common misconception is that once a type of activity is determined, uh, for categorical exclusion, that that's the end of the story, that it's always safe to do that type of activity. And it should never go through any more detailed review. What are some examples of extraordinary circumstances that could mean an action covered by a categorical exclusion, or a type of activity that's covered, uh, would be more carefully reviewed? >> yeah. Thank you, representative huffman.
▶ 1:03:27And so the types of, um, types of effects that, uh, we would review as part of our normal checklist of, of items would be things like presence of endangered species. Um, it would be, um, potential effects to water resources that may, you know, rise to a level of, um, affecting them in a way that wasn't, you know, um, previously contemplated, uh, it could be prime or unique farmlands.
▶ 1:03:55Um, those are the types of things that we undertake as part of an overall review to ensure that activity falls within that categorical exclusion. >> yeah, I appreciate that clarification. And so things like, uh, unique susceptibility to seismicity perhaps, or um, vulnerable aquifers that may be nearby, even though the category of activity is covered by a c, right. >> that's correct. >> and so I think it's important to acknowledge that. And, uh, Mr.
▶ 1:04:22Chairman, I want to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record, uh, a july 2025 review of categorical exclusions under nepa. Uh, I would like that, um, considered because it shows that the categorical exclusions created by legislation, legislation historically have, um, always included extraordinary circumstances, language. And one of my concerns about the bills we're considering here today. >> objection. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Is that, um, they leave that out.
▶ 1:04:54Uh, and I think that's an important safeguard. So. Mr. thank you for being here. I appreciate your clarification. Um, about the customary way in which that further review happens, and I hope we can keep working on this legislation to include that safeguard, yield back. >> thank you. I will now recognize myself for five minutes. Mr. raab, and your experience, how often do exploration activities covered under h.r.
▶ 1:05:215005 76 result in a finding of no significant impact or categorical exclusion under nepa? >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And activities, um, are generally they do not rise to a level of significant impact 100% of the time, and they would be well suited for categorical exclusions. Thank you. >> can you speak to physical landscape of geothermal development on federal lands?
▶ 1:05:47Has geothermal energy development been successful near other energy development or other productive use of blm, such as oil and gas, wind and solar or grazing? >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And again, my experience as a state director in nevada is that, um, geothermal development is highly compatible with other multiple use activities.
▶ 1:06:06Um, everything from, um, you know, grazing operations, rangeland management, um, mineral development, um, other again, energy transmission corridors as well as recreation. It it fits in very well with our multiple use of public lands. >> so last year we had the opportunity to go to favreau's energy cape station in utah. And uh, we saw how wind uh, could coordinate with geothermal and others.
▶ 1:06:33It was fantastic opportunity to bring energy, uh, to light. So, uh, with that being said, I think that, uh, before I close here shortly, I think geothermal is, uh, is really, really underrated. We have the opportunity to do this, and I think doing it right. And that's why I think these pieces of legislation that we're, we're talking about today will be, uh, very impactful on moving geothermal forward.
▶ 1:06:58And I'm looking forward to that energy source being, uh, as a person who has all of the above energy and all the best to rise to the top, I'm looking forward to geothermal, uh, entering that space in a big way. So with that being said, um, I'm going to yield my time at the moment. And one second. Uh, yeah. So if there are no further questions, we will now move on to our third panel. I thank the witness for his valuable testimony.
▶ 1:07:26Uh, you are now dismissed. Well, the clerk resets our witness table. I will remind the witnesses that under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes. But their entire statement will be appear in the hearing record. I'd also like to remind our witnesses of the timing lights, which will turn red at the end of your five minute statement, and to please remember to turn on your microphone. As with the second panel, I will allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning.
▶ 1:08:19Okay. I will now recognize the gentleman from idaho, Mr. fulcher, for 30s to introduce our next witness. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And Mr. chairman, being from the great state of idaho, I just want to say we're we're proud of the history that our state has played in the development of geothermal energy.
▶ 1:08:37The world's first district geothermal heating system was put in place in boise, idaho, in 1892, and that laid the groundwork for a lot of future work. And, uh, the gentleman that I'm about to introduce is a proud resident of idaho, no stranger to this committee, also boise state broncos. We share that in in common. But doctor bryant jones is the executive director of geothermal rising and a proud resident of idaho.
▶ 1:09:04Geothermal rising serves to empower the geothermal industry by aligning all geothermal technologies. Geothermal rising is a nonprofit research organization and educational association. Mr. bryant has 20 years of experience working on public policy at the federal, state and local levels. He spent seven years in academia as a policy and energy scholar, researching at the nexus of policy studies, science and technology studies, and energy transition studies at boise state university. So doctor bryant jones.
▶ 1:09:34>> doctor jones, you are now recognized for five minutes. >> great. Um, thank you, congressman folger. It's great to be here. Um, uh, and thank you. Uh, the chairman as well, and ranking member ansari and members of the committee, um, thanks for this opportunity to testify again.
▶ 1:09:50I'm doctor bryant jones, executive director of geothermal rising, america's largest geothermal industry association and the oldest geothermal association in the world, now representing over 100 us organizations working to continue unlocking the country's vast geothermal resources and advancing innovative technologies. According to the department of energy, geothermal can provide 60 to 90gw of clean baseload power by 2050, enough to continuously power tens of millions of homes.
▶ 1:10:18It runs 24 over seven and has over a 90% capacity. It has the smallest land per megawatt hour footprint of any energy source, and it is ready to scale today. It is a now technology, yet geothermal provides less than half a percent of america's electricity. Why not? Because of technology, not because of resources, but because our permitting system treats the cleanest baseload energy source as if it poses the greatest environmental risk for our country.
▶ 1:10:47A geothermal project located on federal land can face up to six separate environmental reviews and span over a decade. Identical or similar review phases can take six months in one bureau of land management office and perhaps years in another. This lack of predictability and consistency creates uncertainties and barriers to project development, and to bringing much needed electrons to market.
▶ 1:11:11We need standardization and the geothermal technical acumen across blm field offices require that required for precise, informed, responsible and timely permitting decisions. Data centers, artificial intelligence, technology and the reshoring of advanced manufacturing are driving unprecedented and historic electricity demand in the united states.
▶ 1:11:32Our country needs every megawatt we can get, especially dispatchable baseload power that is reliable, resilient and weather independent. The geothermal energy industry supports all nine bills before you today to solve these problems. The geo act, or h.r. 301 and the clean act, h.r. 1687, establish clear timelines, including annual lease sales and 60 day deadlines for agencies to make permit decisions.
▶ 1:11:58These changes would provide the geothermal industry with the same certainty that the conventional industry enjoys today. Currently, the steam act extends categorical exclusions already established for oil and gas to geothermal in the same areas. This makes sense because our industry drills similar holes but with less environmental impact. It is a common sense approach that rightfully has received wide, widespread bipartisan support.
▶ 1:12:27The geothermal cost recovery authority act enables the reimbursement of blm's costs to speed up the permitting process. A pragmatic solution to resource constraints that the geothermal industry supports. The gold book and ombudsman bills work together beautifully. The geothermal gold book development act would standardize procedures across blm field offices. The ombudsman and permitting strike team bill would ensure these standardization procedures are implemented efficiently.
▶ 1:12:54We think these bills are creating the playbook for a quarterback to execute. I recognize that some members might have concerns about hr 55, 60, 55, 76, the enhancing geothermal production on federal lands act, and hr 5587 the heats act. To be clear, we understand that h.r. 5576 would exempt only the smallest of exploration activities temporary wells of less than eight acres and restored within three years.
▶ 1:13:23These are test holes, not power plants. Blm already recognizes its minimal impact through administrative categorical exclusions. This bill would simply provide legislative certainty, which is critical to the geothermal industry. Hr 5587 would only apply where the federal government owns less than half of the subsurface rights. In these split estate situations, states already do. Most of the regulating this bill would eliminate redundancy while explicitly protecting tribal lands and maintaining federal royalties.
▶ 1:13:52It's targeted and reasonable reform to these, to those to those concerned about environmental protection. Geothermal rising concern shares those concerns. Our members are in this industry precisely because we can we care about the environment. Every megawatt of geothermal helps reduce emissions and brings more baseload power online. It is a win win. These these bills don't gut environmental review. They focus it where it matters while eliminating redundancy where it doesn't.
▶ 1:14:22These bills work together. Standards without enforcement don't work. Deadlines without resources cannot be met. Parity means little if implementation remains inconsistent. The geothermal industry needs all nine bills to achieve necessary and more comprehensive reform. The geothermal resources beneath our feet have the potential to energize america for millennia. The technology is proven, the workforce, much of it transitioning from the oil and gas, is ready.
▶ 1:14:48Private capital is eager to invest billions. What we lack is a federal permitting system that treats geothermal rationally, not harder than fossil fuels, not easier than appropriate, and not like an intermittent renewable resource, but rather based on actual risk and impact, and takes into account the unique characteristics of geothermal resources. These bills help achieve that balance. They maintain environmental protection while removing unnecessary and duplicative barriers.
▶ 1:15:17They are the product of years of bipartisan work and stakeholder engagement. So members of this committee, we can either continue to strand gigawatts of clean, reliable domestic energy underground, or we can pass these common sense reforms and unlock one of our most abundant and untapped baseload energy resources. China and other competitors are racing ahead on geothermal. The united states has better resources, better expertise, a stronger workforce and innovative technologies.
▶ 1:15:45Let's not lose our advantage to outdated bureaucratic red tape that does more harm than good. So I urge congress to pass all nine bills as a complete package. Send a clear signal to that america is serious about and about the urgency about energy security, energy dominance, grid reliability, and clean baseload power. Thank you for holding this important hearing today, and I'm happy to answer any of your questions. >> thank you, doctor jones. Uh, our next witness is Mr.
▶ 1:16:12Tim latimer. He is the co-founder and ceo of energy and is stationed in houston, texas. Mr. latimer, it's great to see you again. You are now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. Chairman, ranking member ansari and the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. Uh, my name is tim latimer, co-founder and ceo of energy. We're a leading developer of next generation geothermal technology.
▶ 1:16:36Uh, it's an honor to discuss how geothermal and smart, bipartisan permitting reform can help meet america's growing power needs. Earlier this year, I joined some of you in cedar city, utah, following a visit to cape station project. Since that field hearing, we've made significant progress and delivered real innovation in utah, uh, including securing and building our first turbine, uh, successfully testing our transformers on site and raising over $1 billion in capital at fairvote.
▶ 1:17:02We've taken proven technologies from the shale revolution horizontal drilling, fiber optic sensing, and real time data analytics and re-imagined them for geothermal. The result is enhanced geothermal systems, or eggs, the only zero emission baseload power source ready to scale rapidly over the next five years. Our our flagship project, cape station in utah, is under construction today. Beginning just next year, it will deliver 100mw of round the clock power to the grid, with plans to scale to 500mw.
▶ 1:17:29It is already permitted for up to two gigawatts of growth, positioning it to become the world's largest next generation geothermal development. Cape station proves this is no longer theoretical. We are drilling faster every month, learning from each well and cutting costs at a pace reminiscent of the early shale days.
▶ 1:17:47We've already shown a 75% reduction in drilling time and a 70% cost per foot reduction since 2022, when we drilled our first wells, demonstrating the speed that america needs to meet rising electricity demand, and that demand is accelerating rapidly, artificial intelligence and data centers alone could consume up to 12% of us electricity by 2028. Geothermal is uniquely positioned to provide the affordable, reliable 24 over seven carbon free power that this moment requires.
▶ 1:18:14Enhanced geothermal is built by american workers using american equipment. Many of our employees come from the oil and gas sector, and it takes just two days to retrain a worker for to from oil and gas to work on an enhanced geothermal system rig. This is a pathway to scale a new energy industry while creating durable, good paying jobs rooted in the existing us workforce. Egs is also designed to minimize environmental impacts for all uses.
▶ 1:18:41Dry cooling and closed loop power generation systems that re-inject all the produced fluids back back into the geothermal reservoir, protecting the groundwater and reducing surface disturbance. We take induced seismicity seriously and use advanced modeling and real time monitoring following the best practices established by the department of energy. Our supply chain is domestic. While our early projects are in the west, our suppliers span states including texas, wyoming, ohio, pennsylvania, georgia, nevada and utah.
▶ 1:19:08Enhanced geothermal does not rely on foreign adversaries and strengthens us energy security while delivering real economic benefits to local communities. The greatest barrier to geothermal growth is not technology, it's process. Over 90% of geothermal resources lie beneath federally managed lands, yet permitting can take years.
▶ 1:19:28Meanwhile, favreau is working towards drilling, building and bringing select phases of a project online in under 24 months, where permitting and interconnection are in place, with targeted reforms to environmental review and transmission. Permitting geothermal can become a of cornerstone america's energy supply. That's why we appreciate this committee's leadership. Favreau supports all nine bills before you today.
▶ 1:19:48These common sense measures, such as categorical exclusions for expiration, timely lease sales, and increased geothermal expertise within federal agencies will put geothermal on equal footing with oil and gas while maintaining strong environmental and community protections. The geothermal opportunity is not decades away. With efficient permitting and targeted investment, the united states can unlock tens of gigawatts of enhanced geothermal in the next decade, strengthening grid reliability, us competitiveness, energy security, and driving down carbon emissions.
▶ 1:20:16Thank you for your time and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. Uh, our next witness is miss carrie meyer. She is the nevada climate and energy strategy director for the nature conservancy, and she is stationed in reno, nevada. Miss romeo, you are now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. >> chairman stauber, ranking member and ansari and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.
▶ 1:20:44My name is doctor carrie meyer, and I work as the climate and energy strategy director for the nevada chapter of the nature conservancy. Tnc is a global organization. We work on the ground in all 50 states, and our conservation work extends to 83 countries and territories around the globe.
▶ 1:21:01Our mission is to conserve the lands and waters on which all life depends, and we are a science based organization that works with a broad range of partners to bring together policy expertise, sustainable financing and collaborative partnerships to create the solutions our planet needs. In the coming years, the united states will use more energy than ever.
▶ 1:21:20This trend is driven by things that will improve the economy, such as revitalization of the american manufacturing industry, innovation and driving artificial intelligence, and increasing use of electrified technologies. The country will need a mix of energy sources to meet this rising demand, because no single source can do it alone.
▶ 1:21:40At tnc, we believe that clean, firm geothermal energy can deliver affordable, reliable energy that supports economic growth and provides cleaner air while also reducing harmful emissions. As with any energy development, geothermal can pose risks to local communities, cultural resources and the environment. Geothermal projects should be sited and built in ways to minimize those risks.
▶ 1:22:04In any instances where a project can't minimize them, they should be mitigated with off site conservation, new and emerging drilling techniques, and technologies such as super hot rock and enhanced geothermal systems can reduce these risks and allow for more flexibility in siting new technologies and siting practices help the us to remain a world leader on geothermal energy, but for industry to continue to grow, it will need support from the government and private sector.
▶ 1:22:33Federal policies can help facilitate broader deployment of geothermal energy while also ensuring we protect nature and people, including tribal and rural communities. Tnc recommends that congress consider taking the following actions to advance geothermal deployment.
▶ 1:22:50Improve agency coordination by increased expertise in educational resource sharing between federal agencies, and that can speed up the review and permit execution process and provide developers with a clear set of expectations. Ensure adequate agency staffing agencies need to have enough staff to ensure that permits move forward accurately and as quickly as possible.
▶ 1:23:14Permitting teams need to also include expertise in hydrological, cultural and biological resources, implement reforms improving permitting and environmental review processes for geothermal energy. Help. Projects come online at a pace that meets the increasing electricity demand. If done right, modernizing the permitting process will accelerate timelines while still considering the needs of people and nature.
▶ 1:23:39Following the mitigation hierarchy is important to the nature conservancy. Agencies should be directed to avoid, minimize and, if necessary, mitigate any harmful effects from geothermal development. Lastly, supporting research and development. To accelerate geothermal deployment, the federal government should support public and private research into key topics such as subsurface mapping, deep drilling, materials development, and equipment design.
▶ 1:24:06Tnc is encouraged by congress's interest in geothermal energy and the many policy proposals that have been put forward today. We look forward to working with you to advance geothermal energy and other important clean energy solutions. Thank you and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. Our final witnesses, Mr. paul thompson, he's the vice president of business development of orbit technologies incorporated, and he is stationed in reno, nevada. Mr.
▶ 1:24:35Thompson, you are now recognized for five minutes. >> chairman, ranking member, members of the committee, thank you so much for having me and for the opportunity to speak today. For the record, my name is paul thompson and I'm the vice president of business development for ormat technologies. On behalf of ormat, I appreciate the committee's leadership in advancing geothermal energy development and improving the regulatory framework to accelerate responsible domestic energy production.
▶ 1:25:03As you all know, ormat technologies is a global leader in geothermal power, with power plants delivering 3400mw of power in 31 countries around the world. We design, develop, manufacture, operate and own geothermal power plants worldwide. Here in the united states, ormat operates extensively on federal lands with over 20 active geothermal facilities producing more than 700mw of power and only disturbing 800 acres.
▶ 1:25:36Almost one megawatt of power production per acre of disturbance. We have one of the smallest environmental footprints of any type of energy production. We also hold extensive blm leases for future exploration and development on blm lands across california, nevada, new mexico and utah. Thanks to the hard work of the blm that you heard about earlier and the direction of congress, ormat is developing projects at a record pace.
▶ 1:26:00This year alone, we permitted eight development projects to begin construction this year through nepa. We permitted seven exploration projects to begin drilling that went through the entire nepa process. We processed 54 administrative permits for drilling, and we participated in six blm auctions across five states. Our teams evaluated over 300 federal parcels, expanding our footprint significantly.
▶ 1:26:28While ormat supports all nine bills, I'm here to focus on the two bills that ormat put forward first, the geothermal energy opportunity act, or h.r. 301. We want to commend congressman malloy for putting it forward. And I think her comments on the bill were perfect. I would just want to give you a real life example.
▶ 1:26:50We had projects complete the nepa process that had baseline studies, thorough review through the national environmental policy act. They were approved by the energy endangered species act, excuse me, in the national historic preservation act. And then they went to get their administrative permit from bureaucrats in the agency.
▶ 1:27:08And some of these projects sat not for 12 months, not for 24 months, but for 36 months, with a staffer saying, I don't want to approve this administrative permit. This bill strikes that option or regulatory capture from stopping projects moving forward.
▶ 1:27:28If a project has completed its thorough environmental review, staff should process the administrative permits that come after that, and they should do that regardless of if they think there may be a pending lawsuit, or if they don't have the same desire to approve the project. The second bill is geothermal royalty reform act, or h.r. 5656 38.
▶ 1:27:48Uh, as congressman kennedy pointed out, this, uh, modernizes the royalty structure that we intended to do in the energy policy act of 2005. The real world application here is ormat had a power plant in nevada called mcginness hills. It was built in 2013. We then built the mcginness hills two power plant in 2016.
▶ 1:28:14We went on to build mcginness hills three three years after that, developing the largest geothermal project on federal lands. Well, the intent of the royalty act was because of the high capital cost of energy. We were going to provide a 1.5% royalty structure for the first ten years, and that's going to increase to 3.5% in the following ten years.
▶ 1:28:38When the first power plant reached its ten year anniversary in 2023, it didn't just increase the royalty for that power plant, it took all the other power plants with it that were in the same geothermal resource area. We then learned that while the intent of the energy policy act was to apply to each specific power plant that had its own specific power purchase agreement, this was not how the office of natural resource revenue saw it or was implementing it.
▶ 1:29:05This bill simply says the royalties paid to the federal government are on a plant by plant basis. To streamline this process, moving forward by restoring congress's intended facility specific royalty structure, h.r. 5608 will spur investment, incentivize expansion on existing leases, reduce land disturbances through clustered facilities, and streamline the permitting process.
▶ 1:29:30Furthermore, it will increase royalty revenues over time by promoting broader industry growth, which benefits both the federal government and the developers. These two bills I've just discussed are vital to unlocking geothermal development in the us, along with the other seven bills you've just heard about. On behalf of ormat, I want to thank you for your leadership and commitment to advancing renewable energy solutions, and I'm happy to answer any questions the committee may have. Thank you. >> thank you very much for your testimony.
▶ 1:30:00The chair will now recognize members for five minutes of questions. I'm going to now recognize myself for five minutes. Uh, Mr. latimer, again, it's great to see you. I want to thank you again for hosting the subcommittee at favreau's cape station project earlier this year. Uh, it was a great trip for us. Uh, you know, the heat sex act would ensure that geothermal projects located primarily on state and private lands would need to go through needless additional layers of federal review.
▶ 1:30:26If the federal government owns less than 50% of the subsurface mineral estate, how do state environmental reviews compare to the federal process? >> uh, thank you, chairman. And it was certainly a delight to host you in the subcommittee at our at our project site earlier this year. Uh, there's no substitute from actually, you know, getting out in the community and seeing the real project. So that was a real honor of mine.
▶ 1:30:50Um, I think the question you asked is important and actually one that we find, um, really across all of the geothermal projects and favreau's portfolio, where, uh, we now have over 500,000 acres of land across federal, state and local permits that we've secured for geothermal development, which could translate into tens of gigawatts of power. Um, if, if, uh, developed successfully.
▶ 1:31:09Um, and what you find across the west is often complicated sort of checkerboard patterns of land use where, you know, in very few cases are all of those projects sort of one category of land, whether it's private, state, or federal. And so we often are put in this process of of having multiple, uh, reviews and agencies looking at the same project just because of its split over different types of land.
▶ 1:31:32And so and so, I think it's a smart bill to sort of resolve that issue and let the states take the lead where, um, it's a it's a position where the states have have the most land in the process. And generally it does vary by state. But what we found is the state permitting process. For example, in nevada and utah, the two states that were most active in um are much more precise, and the turnaround times are a lot quicker in terms of what the obligations of. >> give me an idea, Mr. latimer. Give me an idea of the time difference.
▶ 1:32:01>> yeah, it's it's, uh, again, it very much depends not just on the state and the district, but also on the federal side, because as as discussed in the opening remarks, there's huge variations in field offices. And and I think that, you know, what you find is oftentimes if a state office or district office is, um, informed and staffed appropriately for a very routine application, you know, it could take days, whereas we've had instances where, uh, simple items such as applications to lease on the federal side, um, which again, is just the application to lease the, the land, not not
▶ 1:32:32Even to move forward where there would be subsequent environmental reviews to move forward on any activity, have sat for years in other district offices that are that are not as well staffed. So I don't, you know, directionally you find that the state turnaround times, um, are faster.
▶ 1:32:44But but again, there's I think one of the things that we need to solve and that I think the bills do a great job of, of addressing, is that huge variation you find between, um, you know, the well staffed and sophisticated offices versus the offices that are less familiar with geothermal, where, again, we've had permits, just applications for leases to sit when permits are quicker. >> excuse me, but when the permits are quicker by the state, they're not cutting corners, are they?
▶ 1:33:11>> you know, what we find is, is in fact that the, the usually the state requirements, whether it's drilling or land disturbance or air use permits, um, oftentimes uh, or groundwater protection, of course, are oftentimes very highly similar to the exact kind of reviews that are done at the federal level. Um, and so, no, I would not characterize the the state regimes that we permit these projects under as cutting corners. Um, I think it's it's oftentimes, uh, very substantially similar rules that are being enforced and reviewed, um, just just under different time frames.
▶ 1:33:43>> uh, so, um, next question, do you think the geothermal energy industry in the united states would be where it is today without the lessons that you've learned from oil and gas development? >> no, I don't I don't think so. And I think that's something that. >> explain explain. >> yeah. Well, I mean, just the stat that I was I was reading the other day, um, there has been, uh, now at this point in time since the first oil well was drilled 150 years ago, something like 5 million wells drilled for oil and gas production in the united states.
▶ 1:34:13Um, we're in like the the hundreds of hundreds or maybe thousands. I think paul's company has drilled probably a good chunk of those, but it's certainly not 5 million. Uh, and so just the depth of expertise that you see in terms of the technology that's brought about and the resource characterization is, is very different between the oil and gas industry and the geothermal industry. And that's one of the things that, um, you know, I started my career in oil and gas. I became very passionate about geothermal and saw that my skills as a drilling engineer would translate from the oil and gas industry very well into the geothermal industry.
▶ 1:34:43And that partnership, you know, we we include among our investors some of the leading technology companies in the oil and gas space has allowed us to to yield huge benefits in terms of performance and cost. That would be much more difficult to do if we were starting from scratch. And I think it's one of the reasons why our industry has been able to advance so much more quickly than other emerging clean energy technology sectors, because we have such a strong supply base to build from because of the expertise of the oil and gas industry that's so adjacent to our work. >> thank you very much.
▶ 1:35:12My time is up and I'm going to yield five minutes to Mr. magaziner. >> thank you. Chairman. Um, I'm glad that there is support for, from, uh. Supporting the geothermal energy. I think this is one area. >> my hon. Oh, there we go.
▶ 1:35:29I think this is one area, uh, where, uh, the trump administration, where colleagues on both sides of the aisle can support clean energy that is affordable and reliable, uh, supporting geothermal and other forms of clean energy makes it easier to get more energy onto the grid and helps lower energy costs for our consumers. Now, western states have historically been, uh, the epicenter for the development of geothermal plants. I do not come from a western state.
▶ 1:35:58Uh, but the heat of the earth is available everywhere, and geothermal energy shows great potential everywhere. The university of rhode island in my district plans to heat and cool a new research facility, uh, on the narragansett bay campus with a geothermal well that will reduce energy use by up to 60% for heating and 50% for cooling. And I'm especially interested in, um, in egs systems and supporting their development.
▶ 1:36:25So, um, you know, I'll ask anyone on the panel, but maybe starting with Mr. latimer, uh, I take it that the technology is developing rapidly, but what is it going to take to make eggs? Systems cost competitive nationally, and particularly in parts of the country like mine? >> yes, it's an excellent question. And it's our ambition at fairvote, as well as the department of energy's ambition to make this a 50 state technology.
▶ 1:36:49Um, but I think it's also true that, uh, actually the phrase I heard recently that I like is for geothermal to work everywhere. It has to work somewhere first. And obviously conventional geothermal has a long track record of success, but we're just now building out the first deep enhanced geothermal system projects, um, ever in the western united states right now. And, and we've selected utah, for example, for this site because we can reach temperatures above 400°f at only 8000ft of depth.
▶ 1:37:15Um, if we were to go to rhode island, for example, the depth may be double or more for for that level. And so what we believe at fairvote and the department of energy has been great. A great partner in supporting this mission is that, um, we need to start at the resources that are that the most cost effective first. So your question on when will these technologies be cost effective in the right geologic resource, where we are in utah and nevada and idaho? The answer to that is today. And that's an exciting answer, because that allows us to drill the wells and build the power plants to come down the cost curve.
▶ 1:37:45You know, I shared in my opening testimony since our first drill today, first well, we drilled in 2022 to today, we've actually reduced the cost per foot of drilling by over 75%. And so the more we drill, the more we improve technology, the deeper we can go on the same cost structure. And so I think we're where we see our trajectory. We've already come down on a cost per foot basis by 75%. We think we're going to cut that in half again over the next 2 to 3 years. And that starts putting even eastern us resources in the right part of the cost curve.
▶ 1:38:15And to give an example of that, you know, even though we're drilling most of our wells at the project cape resource between 8 and 10,000ft, we drilled a deep test. Well, uh, just a few months ago at our site that got reached 16,000ft, and we drilled it in only 16 days, a small fraction of what industry benchmarks for hard rock geothermal drilling could have been done before. So the exciting thing that I think from that data point is this world where we can take this across, um, into the eastern united states and around the world is not far away. >> can you give us a sense?
▶ 1:38:44I mean, uh, are the barriers to accomplishing that over the next few years primarily barriers of sort of supply chain and scale? Or are there still technological advances that need to be made? >> yeah, we're improving the technology every day. But the ability to drill 16,000 foot wells to well over 500°f and do it using a precision directional drilling like servo does, already exists today.
▶ 1:39:05Um, I think I'm a massive proponent proponent of what I would call deployment led innovation, which is that the way we're going to continue dropping these costs is by drilling more wells, building more power plants, and not, you know, we can support a separate r&d structure, which is vital. And we partner with the national labs regularly. But the way we unlock ever deeper resources is getting more reps in the field. >> on that on that point. And I only have a minute left. So I'll ask you briefly and then, uh, doctor meyer as well. Um, in southern new england, we're also very densely populated.
▶ 1:39:36And so, you know, in terms of the actual space that is needed, the land that's needed, uh, in order to make this work in a densely populated area. What are we looking at? And then, doctor, what what concerns do you have with with this technology in densely populated areas? >> yeah, I think that both doctor jones and Mr. thompson shared some phenomenal stats about the density. You know, how few acres are needed to produce the equivalent amount of energy from geothermal.
▶ 1:39:59So I would actually say relative to any other energy resource, this is actually an incredibly well suited resource to work in densely populated areas because the ground disturbance is so small. >> just with my. Sorry, sorry. >> yes, thank you for the question. So while geothermal is advancing and it's industry, it's actually a very mature industry. It's predictable. It provides proven baseload resources.
▶ 1:40:24And to your question about how it can be compatible with land uses in densely populated places, I'd like to actually point to the example of reno, nevada, where we have a geothermal plant that's utility scale, providing 85mw of clean, continuous power, and it's adjacent to homes and schools. So we look at that as a really good example of a compatible, sustainable land use. >> that's very promising. Thank you I yield back. >> thank you very much.
▶ 1:40:51The chair now recognizes representative fulcher for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I got a question for doctor jones. But when I say doctor jones, I have this impression of a movie character with a whip and a fedora hat. Do you think it would be respectful if I referred to him as bryant? Just for the purpose of this. >> you may refer to him, uh, at your comfort level. >> bryant.
▶ 1:41:15Question for you, uh, we've recently had a discussion about the nuclear energy in this committee, and one of the big obstacles of seeing that proliferate is not only just the permitting, but it's it's the supply chain, because basically that's been discouraged since the 1980s. And it's a real obstacle. Geothermal is, is, is growing. And I see a tremendous potential.
▶ 1:41:43And quite frankly, with the bipartisan support, I think it's going to continue as this proliferates. How are you equipped? How is the supply chain set to accommodate this industry? >> yeah, that's a great. >> question, congressman fulcher. And next time I'll wear my fedora. Um, so, uh, geothermal offers the united states a tremendous opportunity. Um, the supply chain is domestic. This is very much is an all american energy resource.
▶ 1:42:12That is, as we keep saying, right beneath our feet, um, we're mostly using steel and concrete. All of that can be sourced right here in the united states. Our workforce is domestic as well. Um, and it offers an incredible export opportunity. This technology is desirable for from countries around the world, um, that are looking to the united states, uh, for the innovations that are being, uh, that are being advanced by companies like fervent and ormat and ever and zgs and zanskar.
▶ 1:42:40Um, we are even though it's only half a percent of our electricity mix, the export opportunities are tremendous. Um, and, uh, and it also has an opportunity to really, uh, affect geopolitics. I mean, if because because it's a domestic supply chain, we can source our materials here. It we're buying all of our, all of our fuel up front, so to speak. Um, we're removing a lot of those geopolitical challenges and supply chains. And, um, so it is a tremendous opportunity for, for the united states.
▶ 1:43:10>> thank you for that. I'm going to go to Mr. latimer for a question, and I'll open this up if necessary. But, um, you had referenced in your testimony the importance of that for american industry and for american energy is there. I should know this, but I really don't. Can you provide a perspective?
▶ 1:43:30Is there leaders in other countries that have really advanced in the geothermal technology and really proliferated that, that maybe we can learn from, or that would be a good model as we try to proliferate that industry? >> yeah, I would say thank you for the question, congressman. I would say the answer is yes. There's a great global research community. Um, just fervor alone. We're involved in next generation geothermal projects in japan and the eu and other markets around the world.
▶ 1:43:58Um, and a long legacy of, of large geothermal production and innovation, uh, in places like kenya that gets half of its electricity from geothermal, iceland and new zealand and indonesia, you know, these countries that are famous for their geothermal.
▶ 1:44:11I would argue, though, that when it comes to the technical skills required to do advanced subsurface development, the us is today in a league of our own, um, the competency around the supply chain, the skilled workforce that we have, uh, not just the engineering workforce, but the skilled labor that we have in the field for execution of drilling in these projects. What we see from my former industry in the oil and gas world is the efficiencies on drilling, um, in the united states put us in a league of our own compared to what other countries can do.
▶ 1:44:40And as we scale enhanced geothermal systems here, we're seeing the same comparison point where while we continue to be excited and learn from our colleagues all around the world, in the world, geothermal. Uh, this is one of the few areas, I would say, in emerging energy technologies where there's increasingly competitiveness with, uh, china and other regions where the us is by far the definitive leader in technology. >> all right. Thank you for that. I'm going to go back to brian. I have 50s left. I'm sorry. I'm going to get a question in writing to Mr.
▶ 1:45:10Thompson. But brian, back to you. Geothermal rising has been heavily involved with a lot of innovation, and we've been talking about streamlining and legislation that streamlines the process. Is there a link between a streamlined process and improved innovation, and if so, what's that link? >> well, from a policy perspective, um, I mean, we're here talking about permitting reform right now, and that is that's a that's a link to the actual deployment and scalability of the geothermal industry.
▶ 1:45:39Um, uh, sort of outside of the jurisdiction of this committee, there's risk mitigation programs for exploration drilling. Um, there's, uh, additional forage projects. Forge has been an incredibly impactful and successful example of, of of government and private sector partnership. And, uh, congress has already authorized more of those. So if we could have more forge projects to test other sedimentary basins, that would be another, uh, huge opportunity for us to continue advancing the innovation in this industry. >> thank you.
▶ 1:46:08Thank you for the testimony of everybody. And I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes the ranking member. I'm sorry for five minutes. >> thank you, chair, and thank you all so much for being here today. As I mentioned in my opening statement, next generation geothermal has the possibility to be truly transformational for american energy. One thing that you don't often hear about with new technologies is how affordable they are. But geothermal may be the exception there. Um, so, Mr. latimer, this first question is for you.
▶ 1:46:35How quickly are those drilling costs decreasing, and how does this compare to the national renewable energy labs predictions for when next gen geothermal would become cost competitive with other energy sources? And what does that mean for your ability to scale up? And then for american's energy bills? >> thank you, congressman, for the question. Um, and I think we're seeing our costs come down pretty, pretty rapidly.
▶ 1:47:00And actually your your question on the nrel annual technology baseline for enhanced geothermal systems, uh, costs are a big motivator for why I started for to begin with, um, I saw a huge underinvestment in the sector when I became interested in it about a decade ago. And one of the reasons for that is if you looked at the nrel, atb on geothermal enhanced geothermal systems cost, they showed them as cost prohibitive.
▶ 1:47:20But also unlike other technologies like wind and solar, where there was very clearly on a learning curve where they were becoming cheaper over time, those original nrel forecasts showed it would be cost prohibitive forever. And I thought that was wrong. Actually, the first paper I ever published on the topic was how learning curves would apply to enhanced geothermal systems, and that over time, we would lower our cost per foot of drilling in a way that would lead to radically different costs.
▶ 1:47:43And I think we were I felt very vindicated, uh, in 2023 when after fairvote published our first pilot project results, uh, that nrel and their and just one year update from 22 to 23 reduced their estimated cost for enhanced geothermal systems, uh ae by over 50%. And it's continued to trend downward over time. And I think one of the important things that we've done as the sector now is shown that we can be on a rapid learning curve where the costs do get cheaper year over year because we improve the drilling.
▶ 1:48:12And that's really important, especially when the us government is thinking about where to place our bets and what resources to rely on in the future, that we show that more investment in r&d and geothermal does turn turn into radically lower costs, which improves the affordability of this resource. And I think our industry is proud to be on a on a different trajectory than where you see most energy costs, energy technology costs going today. And that's the trajectory of ever, ever decreasing costs. >> thank you so much. Renewable energy is like geothermal can help americans energy bills go down and stay down.
▶ 1:48:42Not only are they cheaper and faster to build than fossil fuel generators today, but families don't end up on the hook for spiking fuel prices whenever there's a national natural disaster or international unrest. Doctor ron meyer, from your perspective, what are the best practices for efficient, responsible geothermal permitting? And how could my bill, the geothermal gold book development act, and the other legislation that we're considering today, help improve the geothermal permitting process?
▶ 1:49:13>> thank you. Uh, we're excited by the prospect of the rapid expansion of geothermal, especially enhanced geothermal activity systems. All of the bills heard today have the potential to, uh, make permitting more efficient. At the nature conservancy, we just advocate that this can't be at the expense of thorough scientific review of environmental impacts. Um, especially in situations with experimentation with new methods and technologies.
▶ 1:49:41That said, we believe that, um, so long as the agencies can meet the timeframes that are established, um, by some of these bills, we support them. We also support the the programmatic eis that was put forth for, uh, that would then lead to categorical exclusions for increased exploration, for geothermal deployment. Um, but with specific regard to your gold book, um, that is a foundational source.
▶ 1:50:10In fact, my very first day of work, um, it was required reading. And so having that consistency across district and field and state offices is valuable. Having the ombudsman liaison that will not only help set expectations and remedy conflicts, potential conflicts, but inform future versions of the gold book as a best practice. So we see many good things. >> and in just the final 40s, Mr.
▶ 1:50:39Lattimer is somebody who has worked with multiple blm field offices on permitting geothermal projects. How is the process differed from office to office, and what would more consistency in the permitting process mean for your business? >> thank you again for the question. Um, consistency would be would be huge because it's not, uh, it's not just that sometimes the rules are different. So we have to change, well, designs or power plant designs from place to place.
▶ 1:51:04It's really that, that change in, in timeline, um, you know, and offices that are, are well staffed and have the right experts on hand, um, we can have very good conversations about how to develop the most responsible project and move quickly. Um, whereas as I've said in other offices that don't have that same access to expertise, um, it can be a multiyear process to even get, uh, our applications looked at.
▶ 1:51:26So driving consistency across the west and across the rest of the country for these different field offices is what I think our industry needs to truly scale at the speed that that we need to to make a difference on people's electricity bills and the country's carbon emissions profile. So, uh, consistency would be a massive step forward in terms of scaling geothermal power. >> thank you, I yield back. >> thank you very much. I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions.
▶ 1:51:55I have to tell you that the witnesses, um, this is, uh, as doctor jones says, uh, geothermal is rising. And this is really, really exciting technology. And I want to thank you all for being here to share your expertise and answer our questions. The members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses, and we will ask you to respond in these to these in writing under committee rule three, members of the subcommittee must submit questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5 p.m. On friday, december 19th.
▶ 1:52:20The hearing record will be held open for ten business days for these responses. If there's no further business. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.