▶ 0:49:30The committee will come to order. Before we get started, um I wanted to I wanted to acknowledge that since the full committee last met, there have been several announcements that that will mean our dis will look a little bit different um than the next Congress. Um, Chairman Arrington, who is not in here right now, but um, he can look at the tape, I guess.
▶ 0:49:56Um, but, uh, he's, as I would say, he's hanging up his cowboy hat um, uh, here in Congress. And as budget committee chairman, few have been stronger champions of fiscal discipline and sounding the alarm about our national debt than Mr. Arrington.
▶ 0:50:15To his credit, his ability to to unlock unlock the required votes in the budget committee to pass pass a budget this year resulted in the single largest reduction in mandatory spending um ever enacted in US history. No one I know has as much enthusiasm as our oversight subcommittee chairman, Mr. Schwikert, who's also not here.
▶ 0:50:42Um but uh when it comes to digging in into the data, whatever the topic is, um figure out what that number to figure out what that number tells us. Um that was Mr. That's Mr. Schwher. Um he was a gracious host for this committee out in Arizona last year and I think must hold the all-time record without a doubt for uh special orders on the House floor.
▶ 0:51:10Um, this committee will miss his his fervor to always lead with the facts regardless of what the political moment says. And when Congressman Finstra also joined this committee, we knew we had a colleague with a deep understanding and appreciation of tax policy given that he chaired the committee at the state level in Iowa. And that has been proven true in the work that we've done.
▶ 0:51:37He has been a constant voice for the a community across the country and [snorts] I know will continue to do so. Lastly, it's tough to imagine this dis without congressman Dogget given his many years of public service and more importantly his passionate and vocal defense of his beliefs on behalf of those he represents.
▶ 0:52:00What America doesn't get to see is the copious notes um and preparation that Lloyd puts into every hearing and markup this committee undertakes. I know I look over at those notes and I get a little worried sometimes what's in those notes, but it's something that it shows his hard work. um this institution is better served um because of the dedication and commitment of people like Lloyd Dogget.
▶ 0:52:30We will miss all of you and wish you well in your next chapter and I would now like to yield to the ranking member for any comments he may have.
▶ 0:52:38Thanks Mr. chairman and I along with you I want to recognize uh those who have uh subscribed at the moment to retirement from Congress and certainly in we're missing a vigorous voice on this committee and Lloyd Dogget our leader on the health subcommittee for more than 40 years 30 in Congress he has championed the people of Texas and been a bulldog in our fight for the little guy and working families whether the affordable care act a fairer tax code or advancing human rights he's been a critical and essential
▶ 0:53:08player higher. He received an unfair shake, I believe, from a Republican legislature, the governor of Texas, and the Supreme Court, who seemed to be proven only in interesting moments for advocating for the president's positions rather than for congressional prerogative. I hope that he won't end this fight in Congress as he proceeds to retiring from Congress. Uh Dave Schwher, uh again, very congenial. He brought considerable fervor.
▶ 0:53:38He likes numbers. I assume that they will have to build an additional room at the Library of Congress to host his posters alone. As much as we will miss his verbal insights, it's unanimous on our side. We will not miss the posters. Uh we've been lucky to have had him as a friend. And let me say something else in private. He is a really nice guy. Very pleasant personality.
▶ 0:54:04Jody Arrington again I thought an individual who was pretty easy for us to deal with in private very pleasant always understood the ramifications of the policies that he embraced and at the same time he also always worked behind the scenes to lower the temperature and trying to strike the right tone for our politics. I will miss him as a friend as well. I want to thank Randy Finstra a really nice guy.
▶ 0:54:31One of the nice things about uh Randy is that we spend a lot of time late in the afternoon in the gym together and we frequently agree on the people that we He has been a good gym buddy. He's also going to be sorely missed because I think again as we uh age through this process, temperament is everything and he has uh considerable and the right temperament for many of the very important issues that this committee takes up. So we've got a year to go and I hope that we can always as Mr.
▶ 0:54:59Lewis used to say, "Fight to perform for a more perfect union." And thank you,
▶ 0:55:05Thank you, sir. Today's mark up continues the Ways and Means Committee's work to deliver targeted solutions for real pro problems faced by real Americans, taxpayer privacy, access to health care, combating fraud, and better trade enforcement, just to name a few. These policies have won bipartisan support and they continue this committee's practice of working across the aisle to get things done.
▶ 0:55:33Our first two bills continue longstanding bipartisan trade programs that advance America's strategic and economic interest, the African Growth and Opportunity Act, known as AGOA, and the Hope Help Program for Haiti.
▶ 0:55:50In Africa, China and Russia have been aggressive players, economically bullying developing nations, extracting and controlling that continent's critical minerals in dirty and dangerous ways. All in a bid to assert global dominance. AGOA is a key part of how America protects our interests in a region important to our future.
▶ 0:56:17Not only does the program strengthen relationships with key key economic partners, it also opens the door to more customers for American farmers and producers in some of the world's fastest growing economies.
▶ 0:56:34As China continues to grow its presence around the globe, America must provide an alternative path to nations looking to tie their economic prosperity to the United States and not our adversaries. The hope help advances US strategic and economic interest right in our backyard in the Western Hemisphere. A fair and mutually beneficial trading relationship with Haiti.
▶ 0:57:02specifically focused on its textile and apparel industry provides job jobs and stability in a nation with a history of humanitarian crisis. A prosperous Haiti helps improve the security of America at home. Both Republicans and Democrats have long supported both trade programs. Today's bills to extend both builds on the previous work this committee did to create the programs in the first place.
▶ 0:57:32The committee will also consider legislation from representatives Blake Moore and Schneider to crack down on the theft of America's intellectual property. Valuable American IP has been the target of theft by foreign competitors for decades. This bill frees Customs and Border Protection to closely coordinate with the private sector when it suspects that imported merchandise violates US intellectual property laws.
▶ 0:58:02The next pair of bills help social security beneficiaries. The clergy act introduced by representatives Fong and Thompson creates a temporary window for members of the clergy who have voluntarily opted out of the social security system to opt back into it. Congress did this in the late 1990s and this bill provides the same opportunity to this generation of spiritual leaders.
▶ 0:58:29Our next bill continues a proven policy that has already enabled the federal government to identify, prevent, and recover hundreds of millions of dollars of improper payments made to deceased people. Congressman Higgins bill permanently extends the authority for the Social Security Administration to share its its death data with Treasury's do not pay portal.
▶ 0:58:57so federal payments aren't made to deceased individuals. This exact same policy has already passed the US Senate with unanimous bipartisan support. And it's it's important this committee also take action. Next, we will turn to healthcare legislation introduced by Representative Fitzpatrick that expands atome health options for seniors.
▶ 0:59:22Currently, Medicare does not cover certain drugs administered at home that are infused through a pump. Without treatment, patients may experience life-threatening organ damage. This bill gives Medicare coverage to those to these drugs so seniors can receive treatment from the comfort of their own homes. Our next two bills continue our campaign to strengthen taxpayer rights.
▶ 0:59:50The first legislation from representatives Moran and SU strengthens rights for taxpayers engaged in certain litigation in tax court in light of a recent Supreme Court ruling. This this bill suspends the period of limitations for filing a claim for credit or refund during certain tax proceedings and prohibits the IRS from applying refunds against a disputed tax liability while a hearing is underway.
▶ 1:00:20The second forces the IRS to be more transparent when asking third parties for confidential information about a taxpayer. Under current law, the IRS must notify taxpayers before contacting third parties like banks or employers during a tax investigation. But the agency is not required to tell taxpayers exactly what information it is seeking.
▶ 1:00:46This bill from representatives and Petta requires the IRS to both disclose to taxpayers the exact information they are seeking from third parties and eliminates the need for many third-party contacts by giving taxpayers the opportunity first to provide the information to the IRS themselves. The last bill from Representative Schweikert helps keep our community safe.
▶ 1:01:14Currently, less than lethal weapons like tasers are taxed as firearms under outdated laws. Because of the incorrect classification, the tax raises the cost to use non-lethal tactics and discourages innovation for new safety devices. This bill corrects this error and ensures future taser related innovations are not subject to the firearms and ammunitions excise tax.
▶ 1:01:44I want to thank you to all the members for your hard work on bringing these bipartisan bills before us today and I look forward to taking the next steps toward making them the law of the land. I'm now pleased to recognize the ranking member from Massachusetts, Mr. Nil, for his opening statement.
▶ 1:01:59Thank you, Mr. Chairman. After two months apart, it's great to see all of the committee members here today for this meeting. There's certainly a lot of work in front of us to meet the needs of the American people, combat the Republican affordability crisis, keeping health care costs low for the American family, and our efforts to deliver good jobs, higher wages, better and easier lives. I do want to call attention, Mr.
▶ 1:02:23chairman to something that uh we have discussed on our side in the last few days and that seems to be the emerging pattern that if there's a controversial witness it is done in private as opposed to the obligation I think we have to heir many of these differences of opinion in public the USR met us in private the head of CMS met us in private we need to have the HHS secretary in front of the committee as our constitutional oversight responsibility dictates if the agenda might
▶ 1:02:53not be working for them, that doesn't mean that they ought to be able to avoid oversight, which is still the primary responsibility of this committee and our constitutional responsibility. Month after month, the president's trade war has driven prices through the roof.
▶ 1:03:08His policies are choking economic growth and hiring as well his disregard for the people people's health care as families scrambling as they look to fork over hundreds or thousands of dollars more annually or forego coverage together. report in the Boston Globe this morning indicates that 10,000 people in Massachusetts have already decided to drop their health insurance in a state that has 97% coverage because of the uncertainty that has come over the tax credits.
▶ 1:03:39Too many times our colleagues on the other side have enabled and rubber stamped this crisis. They have showered the wealth wealthy with cash as families squeeze from the pain of higher costs. and the president. He's made it known that he couldn't have less interest in addressing many of these issues. In fact, I haven't heard a thing from the other side since the president lashed out at struggling Americans, deflecting their affordability fears as a Democratic scam. Members of this committee know better.
▶ 1:04:08This administration has continuously sought not to open up relief policies for the American people. a $12 billion bailout for farmers buckling under the weight of a needless and illegal trade war. Members of this committee, we know better privately. Republicans have oftent times considered this committee, this commerce only to reassert what it is that the president says. We think that congressional oversight is very important to the American people.
▶ 1:04:38And nowhere is that more apparent in affordability and tariff issues. We're just weeks away now from the Affordable Care Act enhanced premium credits to expire. Let's get on with passing these credits, extend them for three years, and then have a discussion about affordability after that's been accomplished. Let's be clear about the success of these credits. They put thousands of dollars back in people's pockets and led to record enrollment in the marketplace.
▶ 1:05:03More Americans than ever are covered thanks to our investments and oftent times not earning any support from the other side. With the loss of these investments looming, I was hoping that this markup today would allow us to see a Republican plan to actually enhance the premium support credits. I hope that we would finally consider this evasive plan that is in front of us oftent times in public discussion as to how to enhance the Affordable Care Act.
▶ 1:05:33This has been promised by Republicans for 15 years, and there has never been a single vote on the House floor about a Republican We'd like to see Speaker Johnson do what he has said. He's going to have everybody working around the clock for a plan that we hope will address the affordability issue. Unfortunately, the wait continues.
▶ 1:05:56We have found time to squeeze tax relief in today's markup, but not to keep premium costs down for Americans struggling with the rising health care cost. Not content with cutting taxes on guns as part of the big bill, they're now pushing a bill to ease taxes on tasers. Imagine if our colleagues showed even a fraction of that urgency when it came to lowering health care costs for the American people.
▶ 1:06:18Instead, with millions of Americans set to lose their healthcare, with every American paying for the president's tariffs this holiday season and beyond, too many times, the effort is made to stall, distract, and run out the clock. It will move heaven and earth for tax cuts for the people at the very But it's always a challenge to get them to pay great attention to those who are struggling at the lower ends. Oftent times, it comes up empty. The American people as we proceed to this holiday season, they deserve much better.
▶ 1:06:48And with that, let me yield back my time.
▶ 1:06:51Our first order of business is HR6500, the AGOA Extension Act. The legislation before us would extend the African Growth and Opportunity Act or AGOA Trade Preference Program for three years. Reauthorizing AGOA will provide not only economic benefits, but also strategic benefits in America's efforts to strengthen our critical supply chains.
▶ 1:07:16And it will help counter efforts by nations like China and Russia to spread their often harmful influence in Africa. During a hearing of the Ways and Means Trade Subcommittee last year, one witness testified that quote, "There will be a party in Moscow.
▶ 1:07:37There there will be a party in Beijing if we don't reauthorize it." In many ways, AGOA is the gold standard when it comes to our trade and development policies.
▶ 1:07:52It encourages fair trade over foreign aid and has the most stringent eligibility criteria of any trade preference program with countries undergoing annual reviews to ensure that they meet strict standards including the rule of law, anti-corruption, IP rights, human rights, market access, and more.
▶ 1:08:16Participating nations must also ensure their actions do not undermine America's national security or foreign policy interest. This committee has hosted a bipartisan roundt with committee members and ambassadors from several AGOA countries. We discussed how US companies have invested 8 billion annually in these trade relationships in recent years.
▶ 1:08:43While at the same time, these partnerships have opened markets for US agriculture, an issue particularly important to the communities that I represent in Missouri, which is why I've traveled and led trips to the region several times going back to 2015 when I attended an AGOA forum in Gaban. It is a challenge these days to find trade policies that garner broad bipartisan support.
▶ 1:09:11And yet here we have a program that has done just that. If we can get this reauthorization done in a timely manner, we can provide short-term stability in these strate strategically important trade relationships while this committee develops a long-term AGOA extension that reforms the program to address our strategic priorities in the region even more effectively.
▶ 1:09:39Among the goals to further promote through ongoing AGOA reforms is enhancing the opportunity for nations to graduate into former bilateral trade agreements with the United States that include better market access for our farmers and manufacturers. For example, the nation of Maitius could graduate from AGOA within the next 5 years.
▶ 1:10:04I am eager to ensure they and other countries do not face a cliff when graduating from AGOA, but do recognize that it is only fair for them to more fully open their markets to American products in return for continu continued preferential access to the US market.
▶ 1:10:27Additionally, we cannot stress enough how important AGOA and fostering strong trade relationships with Africa is to America's national security and specifically our ability to access critical minerals and rare earths. China is active on the African continent and has cornered the global market on critical minerals.
▶ 1:10:53With Africa home to significant portions of the world's critical mineral reserves and China already actively seeking to exploit those natural resources, it is in our national security interest to strengthen our economic ties on the continent, working in partnership with African nations to avoid giving China the opportunity to gain a bigger foothold in the region.
▶ 1:11:21The Trump administration just advanced this objective last week through a strategic partnership agreement to develop critical minerals in cooperation with the Democrat Republic of the Congo. And Congress can build on this effort by renewing AGOA. I urge my colleagues to support this three-year extension of this important program that will give time to continue to foster closer [snorts] relationships with AGOA nations, including regards to our critical supply chains.
▶ 1:11:51I now recognize the ranking member from Massachusetts, Mr. Nil, for his opening statement.
▶ 1:11:55Thank you, Chairman. AGOA has been a cornerstone of America's partnership with Africa now for nearly 25 years. Democrats believe this morning that the sentiments are correct. However, at a moment when the White House is undermining that relationship while fueling chaos across the African continent, leveling a heap of tariffs on the world's poorest countries and trafficking in dangerous rhetoric that demeanes people on that continent, it's more important than ever that Congress show that we remain committed to our allies.
▶ 1:12:24In similar conversations that chairman just outlined, we know how important Africa trade is and to compete with the Chinese successfully from the American vantage point. This is not the bill that I would have written, but we are not naive to the ongoing challenges, and the chairman and I have spoken about this, but we need to confront issues of labor rights, human rights, and certainly TAA should have been included.
▶ 1:12:49It is hard to see how we reset the trade relationships across the globe after the damage that is being done without including issues like TAA. But the moment is too grave to let it pass us by. We cannot allow our economic and diplomatic ties with Africa to languish under what I think is the unnecessary harshness of this administration. They are pushing those to give. And that's not just who we are in negotiation. My personal commitment to expanding TA has been with me for decades.
▶ 1:13:19And advancing policies that strengthen worker rights is ironclad, which we proved in USMCA and the Peru bilateral. We all know there's a long way between the committee and the floor. We want to use that time to work on reauthorization of TAA for this Congress. When our workers thrive, our economics thrive. And it's a disappointment, though not a surprise, that it's hard for our colleagues to often meet these moments. Our global competitiveness depends on investing in our allies and our workers, not abandoning them.
▶ 1:13:48Our trade subcommittee ranking member couldn't be with us today for health reasons, but I would ask unanimous consent to enter her statement into the record.
▶ 1:13:57Without objection.
▶ 1:13:58Thank you. And I want to yield the balance of my time to our distinguished colleague from Alabama, Miss Su.
▶ 1:14:03Thank you for yielding, Ranking Member Neil. I speak today in strong support of the three-year extension of the of the African Growth and Opportunity Act, AGOA, one of the most successful bipartisan trade preference programs in our nation's history. AGOA has been for nearly a quarter century a cornerstone of America's economic and strategic partnership with sub with uh Africa.
▶ 1:14:28It has helped to uh spur billions in two-way trade, encourage market-based reforms, and helped create jobs both across Africa as well as the United States. But today, it is at risk. As we all know, AGOA expired on September 30th, 2025. That lapse is doing real harm. Without these trade preferences, African exporters face sudden and significant tariff spikes, costs that may may not be absorbed.
▶ 1:14:56For some countries, these duties are doubling or tripling the cost of doing business with the United States. And every day that passes without congressional action means loss of orders, shuttered factories, and weakening supply chains. Let me be clear, the cost of inaction is falling hardest on lowincome producers and emerging industries in Africa. But American businesses are paying the price as well.
▶ 1:15:19AGOA has opened the door for US companies large and small to access one of the fastest growing regions in the world. Africa's population is projected to double by 2020 20 by 2050. Its middle class is expanding. Its economies are diversifying. And in short, Africa is just is not just a humanitarian or diplomatic priority. It is a growth market. It is a strategic market. It is a market where the United States cannot afford to fall behind.
▶ 1:15:47Renewing a Goa for three years is the bare minimum we must do right now to restore certainty, to restore confidence, and to restore momentum. Businesses need stability to invest. Workers need predictability to plan. Partners need assurances that the United States remains committed to a long-term mutually beneficial economic relationship with Africa. This is not a partisan issue, Mr. Speaker. Uh AGOA has broad bipartisan and bicameal support.
▶ 1:16:14It has been renewed and strengthened under both Republican and Democratic administrations because it is a smart, strategic and valuesdriven policy. Extending AGOA now before more damage is done will reaffirm our commitment to fair, rules-based trade and to deepening our commercial ties with a region whose future is tied to ours. I urge my colleagues, let us act swiftly. Let us send a clear message that the United States keeps its word. It values its partners and it recognizes the vast opportunity ahead.
▶ 1:16:44I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you. The committee will now proceed to consideration of HR 6500, the AGOA Extension Act. Without objection, the measure measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. And at this time I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it.
▶ 1:17:10Without objection the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read open for amendment at any point and considered base text for purpose of amendment. I will now turn to Josh Sneed cha uh chief trade counsel to provide a technical description of the amendment and the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his
▶ 1:17:36Thank you, Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Neil. HR6500 has three sections. Section one contains a short title which is the AGOA Extension Act. Section two extends the African Growth and Opportunity Act or AGOA for three years through December 31st, 2028. If enacted, this would be the shortest extension in the history of AGOA. Section three extends the authorization for certain customs user fees assessed on US imports for additional three months.
▶ 1:18:03This extension would ensure the AGOA extension is fully paid for. That concludes my technical walkthrough. I'm happy to answer any questions.
▶ 1:18:10Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment and the nature of a substitute? Mr. Neil,
▶ 1:18:15thank you. Uh unlike the AGOA legislation, the Haiti legislation does not include any budgetary offsets. Mr. need. So, two technical questions regarding the Haiti legislation and the offsets. Why isn't there an offset in the Haiti legislation?
▶ 1:18:31Yes. Uh, thank you, Mr. Neil. Um, let me make sure I have the numbers in front of me. So, the the offset in the AGOA legislation, and these are CBO wants us to be clear, it's informal, ahead of a markup. So, their informal estimate is that this offset um would account for $1.1 billion in revenue.
▶ 1:18:49the three months they can't calculate less than three months of an extension of customs user fees because of seasonality and when that money comes in um that 1.1 million is almost twice as much as is needed for both the AGOA and Haiti extensions. So any additional offset in this markup would um would be a lot of additional um offset that would be unneeded to cover both of these bills. So the the 1.1 billion that's customs user fees in this legislation.
▶ 1:19:14Um and just to give you the exact numbers, they're estimating it's 578 million for AGOA and just 93 million for Hades. The total is 671 million that's needed to offset both bills for three years. Um and this is a $ 1.1 billion um offset. Obviously members would have to figure out post markup what the vehicles would look like going to the floor, but if both of these were in the same vehicle, this one offset is more than enough for both bills.
▶ 1:19:37So that's part of the follow-up question. So if the AGO and Haiti bills are not combined before they go to the floor, will the absence of the offsets in the Haiti legislation prevent it from moving forward?
▶ 1:19:46It it would need some offset.
▶ 1:19:48Fair enough. Thank you.
▶ 1:19:51Additional technical questions.
▶ 1:19:52Mr. Dog,
▶ 1:19:53Mr. Dogget,
▶ 1:19:55thank you, Mr. Need. Uh if I understand, uh we don't have a GOA today. It expired though it was well established that it would expire back on September 30th and uh nothing was done before that time. Is that correct?
▶ 1:20:10That's correct. Expired September 30th.
▶ 1:20:12Uh, do you have a statement of administration support for this bill?
▶ 1:20:18They they have publicly stated they support a short-term extension of this
▶ 1:20:22a short-term or a three-year extension.
▶ 1:20:25I don't think they've stated explicitly three years.
▶ 1:20:27How many countries uh are in a GOA as of September 30th? I I don't have the right the exact number in front of me, but it's around
▶ 1:20:38Okay. And do I understand that this bill as it's written will not mandate that all of those 25 30 whatever the number is remain in a GOA? That's entirely dependent upon the decisions of the
▶ 1:20:53That's correct. The administration runs annual reviews of the eligibility
▶ 1:20:57and the president uh at his whim can remove any of the countries that have benefited from a GOA in the past or can add countries. So um ju just to be clear adding countries will be within I think the total list is 49 countries that Congress has said of potentially eligible in subsaran Africa within those they can be added can be removed only after following the the process set forth in the statute to conduct an annual review
▶ 1:21:21and under the process set forth in the statute Congress does not have a role in it after we approve this bill. It will be the decision of President Trump as to whether he wants to remove a country or add a country within the 49. So I would I would clarify it absolutely true Congress does not have a role in executing the law. Congress has built into the statute several notification other requirements including if a country is ever to be removed um Congress must receive 60 days of notice before that can take effect.
▶ 1:21:51So uh President Trump didn't give us that kind of notice on the many other tariffs he's imposed. So if he chooses to comply with that he really can remove a country from uh a Goa for any reason he pleases. He he could be sued and lose if he did not site a specific eligibility criteria in the statute.
▶ 1:22:09Right. And as and as far as the other tariff action he's taken, I think many African countries, Mr. Neil referred to this earlier, Lotho is a good example, uh severely impacted by the huge tariffs that he imposed. Will our approving this legislation change in any way the other tariffs that President Trump has applied to these countries?
▶ 1:22:31It it will not. Just to clarify how these things interact though, a couple things. You're absolutely right. Lutu I think had one of the highest tariff rates that was put on record in April. That was later changed to 15% from 49 or something like that. Um the other thing I would say is every user that I have heard from both in Africa and the United States has indicated that renewal of this program is very important to them even if reciprocal tariffs remain in place.
▶ 1:22:53Basically, this will not change any of the other uh hor horrendous uh tariffs that have been imposed on these countries by President Trump without involvement of Congress. Now, you mentioned the criteria that are in the statute, and I want to be clear as to what criteria can be used. Uh let's suppose that you have an African country that has a history of murdering all of its political opponents.
▶ 1:23:18Would is there any criteria in this uh authorization that would make that a basis for denying them uh special access to the American
▶ 1:23:28So there this this renewal bill makes no policy changes, but the existing legislation as in place through September 30th does have a human rights criterion that I would think could apply in the you know depending on the circumstances. And what if it uh chooses to destroy uh significant portions of its rainforest which have an impact on all of us? Would that be a uh included within the criteria for uh denying
▶ 1:23:54So I I don't believe there's a specific environmental criterion. I I would have to take a look whether that could fall into some of the existing criteria.
▶ 1:24:00Thank you for your answers.
▶ 1:24:03Are there additional technical Seeing none, we'll move to strike the last word. Does any member wish to strike the last word?
▶ 1:24:15Mr. Smith.
▶ 1:24:16Mr. Davis.
▶ 1:24:18Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, since its inception, the African Growth and Opportunity Act has received consistent bipartisan support. Today is an important opportunity to advance this initiative as we work to reauthorize the program, which has been a pillar of US trade and economic engagement with subsaharan Africa. As we all know, trade takes signi a significant amount of back and forth discussion and engagement.
▶ 1:24:41With over 17,000 tariff lines and complex steps in facilitation, trade is a detailed and dynamic system which depends on certainty and capability. AGOA is a unique opportunity to strengthen trading relationships through market signals and cooperation on our partners' trade and investment policy, rule of law, as well as worker and human rights. This program is a signal to the world of our commitment to strong partnerships throughout subsaharan Africa.
▶ 1:25:08We cannot sit on the sidelines while our global adversaries including the Chinese Communist Party spread their malign influence across the continent of Africa as and elsewhere. As the Trump administration redefineses trade engagement, AGOA can be a complimentary trade policy as we look to build mutually beneficial reciprocal trade. Take Kenya for example, a beneficiary of the program since it began. When AGOA first went into effect in 2000, Kenya had very limited trade with the US.
▶ 1:25:37Under AGOA, Kenya's GDP has grown as have their imports from the US. As their economy has succeeded, so has their trade capacity. This is why I was eager to see the first Trump administration work to advance bilateral negotiations with Kenya and and [clears throat] I hope to see continued progress in the coming years with Kenya and other beneficiaries. Though preference programs, excuse [clears throat] me, can be the foundation for our engagement with developing countries, they should never be the extent of it. They are a tool to advance our interests.
▶ 1:26:08There is so much potential in growing our partnerships throughout Africa as the world works to avoid overreiance on unreliable single sources. Redundant supply chains for both inputs and markets for our outbound products are key. from critical minerals to agriculture. With the fastest growing population and untapped economic potential, we must maintain reliable and proactive engagement across the continent of Africa. To this end, I know there is broad interest from my colleagues in the future of this program.
▶ 1:26:36We've discussed it in visits to multiple AGOA countries, with their national leaders here in DC, and in our trade subcommittee hearings on preference programs la last year. This three-year reauthorization would allow us additional time to consider key reforms to modernize the program from graduation to eligibility requirements. I look forward to working with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle as we move forward. Again, I urge all my colleagues to join me in supporting this very important bipartisan program. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 1:27:04Thank you, Mr. Thompson.
▶ 1:27:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the committee's consideration of trade legislation today. Uh, but I want to point out that every American is feeling the pain of this administration's trade agenda. Their disastrous trade policy has increased inflation, raise the cost of living for all Americans, harmed small businesses and manufacturers, and devastated our agricultural producers. Mr.
▶ 1:27:35Chairman, without a single vote from our committee or the House of Representatives, President Trump, much like the Grinch, slipped down every chimney of every household and took hundreds of billions of dollars from hardworking Americans. This administration calls it beautiful. People in my district call it too damned expensive.
▶ 1:27:59At a time when the administration is slapping tariffs on our closest allies while giving Putin a pass, this committee should exercise our authority to write the ship of trade. While the pain to consumers has been slow and crushing, agricultural producers in my district got hit hard and they got hit fast. They lost their largest export market to Canada overnight.
▶ 1:28:28The administration's latest agricultural bailout adds insult to injury. The administration is telling farmers unless they are a row crop or soybean producer, they don't matter. California farmers are the most productive in the world. Our farmers matter to our district. Our farmers matter to our state. And our farmers matter to our country.
▶ 1:28:56I have bipartisan legislation with representatives New House, Lamalfa, Panetta, and Selenus that would ensure that agricultural producers get the assistance they need to get through this self-imposed crisis. Mr.
▶ 1:29:14Chairman, I appreciate the committee's consideration of trade legislation, but urge that we take action on the most pressing trade issues so we can stand up to China and Russia, support American jobs and American consumers, and save American families from the Grinches, excuse me, the president's affordability crisis. I yield back,
▶ 1:29:41Miss Miller. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. I want to thank Chairman Smith for advancing the reauthorization of the African Growth and Opportunity Act. This is critical legislation and it is key to lifting the world's most dire populations out of poverty while combating China's growing influence in Africa.
▶ 1:30:05American nations are great partners for sourcing products that may be best produced in friendly countries such as apparel and travel goods, which in turn supports American consumers and jobs by ensuring the lowest prices across the supply chain. However, China is actively spreading their influence across the continent.
▶ 1:30:27we run the risk of losing ground to them if we don't actively engage and build stronger partnerships with friendly African nations. The Ways and Means Committee has held robust conversations on AGOA and have identified ways the program can be strengthened, including providing incentives for nations to graduate from the program and also clarifying rules of origin.
▶ 1:30:54The three-year authorization of AGOA allows us to continue these conversations and cement these reforms while providing certainty to American companies operating in the region. I thank you again for your leadership, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back my time.
▶ 1:31:11Thank you, Mr. Dogget.
▶ 1:31:13Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Today is the first time that our Ways and Means Committee has met since September. Yet, there's nothing on the agenda that will address the high costs that American families are facing, the coming health care crisis, or the fallout from the economic chaos chaos that Trump's ill-advised tariff taxes are causing. Yesterday, President Trump identified the real problem that we face in this country.
▶ 1:31:39Some little girls just want too many dials, and he thinks that's selfish on their part, and they should uh not be doing that. uh he uh in fact uh got the attention not only of Mr. Thompson, but of the uh ways and me the Wall Street Journal uh opinion page which uh this week had a editorial big winner in Trump's trade war.
▶ 1:32:02The Grinch every who down in Whoville, the tall and the small is paying stiff tariffs on gifts at the mall outlining the impact on the holidays that the Trump trade war is having. And I would ask unanimous consent to place that in the record.
▶ 1:32:18Without objection. Uh he claims that he's bringing prices way down and inflation has stopped, but a Christmas ham cost 49% more than last year. At the same time, his Treasury Secretary declares, quote, "The American people don't know good how good they have it." Well, I think the American people are learning how good they have it, and it's not quite as good as what he promised in bringing prices down drastically.
▶ 1:32:45Let's look specifically at Africa, the subject of this bill. With Trump's abrupt and totally unjustified termination of the US Agency for International Development, he cost thousands of American jobs and thousands of American lives. His outrageous tariff policies wrecked economies in many African countries. He subverted international institutions and he attacked our traditional allies.
▶ 1:33:12Trump has been sending African countries straight into Xi Jinping's hands and the Chinese have been accelerating their trade and investment accordingly. AGOA cannot undo the far-reaching harm that Trump has already caused, but it can properly constitute constituted help Africa develop and encourage respect for US programs and its citizens.
▶ 1:33:35While I'd be supportive for a genuinely short-term extension with reforms, this is not the bill before us today. The length of the extension coupled with the lack of any meaningful reforms indicates to me that we as a committee should be taking a little more time before approving this. I am concerned specifically about one wonderful country, Kenya, which I've visited, but about the safety of American investment there.
▶ 1:34:02I have a constituent in Austin who's co-president of Light Pulse, one of Kenya's esteemed education institutions. Last October, a key employee with the help of the Kenyans was abducted to Turkey and tortured. The threat to the safety of employees of my constituents investment raises questions whether any Texan shouldn't be investing in Kenya and whether they should be accarted full benefits under this bill.
▶ 1:34:28While I support uh AGOA, I don't support extending it to countries that repeatedly engage in human rights violations. And I think the current language in the uh AGOA bill uh is insufficient in that regard. In Tanzania, within the last few weeks, the bodies are stacking up, overflowing at margs as over 700 people have been killed uh in connection with the election, the reelection under very questionable circumstance. President Hassan.
▶ 1:34:58The same is true in a number of other countries. Very important to recognize the answers that Mr. Steed gave me in the overview. This reauthorization does not assure a single African country a single benefit if they get crosswise with President Trump. Congress is not involved. We're simply empowering the president to include or not include any country at his whim. And we know how whimsical his policies can be.
▶ 1:35:27Similarly, it is a mistake to to turn a blind eye to the environmental wrecking of much of Africa, particularly its rainforest. That ought to be a criteria in this bill. And lastly, and very importantly, American workers should not be forced to compete on on an uneven playing field.
▶ 1:35:47One where Chinese investment take advantage taking advantage of lacks rules of origin and a disregard for international labor rights puts our workers here in the United States at a competitive disadvantage. I encourage my colleagues to join me in rejecting this particular bill in favor of reauthorizing AGOA in a more responsible fashion. and I yield back.
▶ 1:36:10Mr. Davis.
▶ 1:36:14Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. I've listened to the discussion and agree wholeheartedly with much of what I have heard, especially information conveyed by the chairman, ranking member, and others who have spoken.
▶ 1:36:35I've spent a fair amount of time traveling in Africa and I can tell you that the presence of China and Russia, especially China is somewhat overwhelming almost when you see the activity and know what is [clears throat] taking place. So the fact that we are extending Agora I think is great.
▶ 1:37:04We need to increase the trade and the support that we give to all of those countries. And I can't help but recall and remember that Illinois is a great agricultural state. So we look forward to trade all around the globe. But I also remember the great work that Charlie Wrango did on Agora.
▶ 1:37:35And I think Agora will be a real part of Charlie's legacy. He loved this work. He loved Agora. Talked about it all the time. So an extension of former chairman Charlie Rango. I strongly support extension of Agora. And yield back, Mr. Chairman,
▶ 1:38:01Miss Soul.
▶ 1:38:04Mr. Chairman, I uh move to strike the last word. First, I'd like to give uh my sincere thanks to Chairman Smith and ranking member Neil for keeping the committee focused on AGOA reauthorization. As many of you know, years ago, I made a promise to our former chairman Charlie Wrangler that I would take up the mantle of preserving and protecting the AGOA program. And I know that he is smiling that we are finally doing something about it.
▶ 1:38:30Although I'm sure he would want a longer extension and he would want taa and he would want reforms. We know how Charlie thinks. Over the last few years I have met directly with a with aa country leaders, civil society groups and business communities about the importance of the AGOA program. I welcome the opportunity to join Chairman Smith on a Kodell to Africa last year where we visited Madagascar um and um Martine as well as Benine.
▶ 1:38:59What I've learned is that our AGOA partners truly value their partnership with the United States and that our trade policies have the power to shape outcomes around the globe. Economic growth is accelerating on the continent of Africa and population is expected to reach 2.5 billion by 2050. The region will become an economic powerhouse with a young workforce that will be exposed to emerging technologies that have the power to expedite growth.
▶ 1:39:28It is in America's interest to strengthen our ties with the region and deepen our trade relations. However, AGOA is is more than just about tariffs and quotas and trade deficits. Passing the bill demonstrates that this committee is committed to our broad relationships with Africa. But more importantly, this bill sends a message that even though our president can have horrible rhetoric towards African nations, it is not reflective of America's values and priorities.
▶ 1:39:58Countries like South Africa and Nigeria have been recent targets of President Trump's baseless attacks. But I am glad that this committee is taking true bipartisan action to show that America will not turn its back on Africa. Agoa countries are our partners, our allies, and deserve the dignity and respect that our other allies receive. AGOA is also a priority for the Congressional Black Caucus. But it's not just a priority for CBC.
▶ 1:40:25It has enjoyed long-term uh bipartisan priority and support as well as biccameal support. It stands as a proud example of America's commitment and Congress's [clears throat] intent to deepen trust, stability, and shared prosperity with the GOA allies. I strongly support this three-year reauthorization of the program. Moreover, during this extension, I hope that we can also uh have an opportunity to address some of the reforms.
▶ 1:40:53To be clear, this is not the reauthorization bill that I would have drafted. I would have Charlie made sure that it was 10 years long that it was also um had taa and it extended its uh and it extended to address uh its reform. I hope that we use this time after reauthorization to actually modernize and reform the program.
▶ 1:41:13I believe that we can make real progress on provisions that would strengthen enforcement, improve congressional oversight, strengthen critical mineral supply chains, improve utilization, and establish a smooth graduation path that encourages economic development. Again, I want to uh give my sincere thanks to both Chairman Smith and Ranking Member Neil for making AGOA a bipartisan priority for this committee.
▶ 1:41:39And I strongly urge all my colleagues to vote for this bill and send a strong signal to our African allies that leaders in Congress respect and value our continued partnership. I yield back.
▶ 1:41:51Thank you, Miss Moore.
▶ 1:41:59Thank you so much, Mr. chairman uh and our ranking member for this opportunity to speak on this bill reauthorizing a GOA for a short-term extension of 3 years.
▶ 1:42:16I know that many uh of us here on the day don't agree with extending this uh for a long period of time because we do indeed want to see reforms in the program that adhere to the concerns raised by the AFL CIO.
▶ 1:42:37Um but we we have got to ask our qu ask the question um should we kill the which is expired uh because we want to see certain um enhancements. I certainly would have liked to see us join this uh reauthorization with legislation on enhancing the trade adjustment assistance uh act or TAA as an example.
▶ 1:43:08I certainly heard the impassioned uh concern about uh destruction of the rainforest and I and I have to ask myself uh if we don't pass this um will the rainforest uh uh be destroyed anyway.
▶ 1:43:29I do think it's really important for us to um acknowledge the things that have been raised here today is that the president still has a considerable amount of power regarding what will or will not happen to these African countries as Mr. dog.
▶ 1:43:46It has pointed out and I and I want to take this opportunity to talk about the quagmire that article one of the constitution has been put in with regard to not having much influence over our trade policy.
▶ 1:44:03And it has certainly put the American economy uh in uh in a very um uh way with regard to affordability in the United States. That being said, I want to acknowledge the work of the chairman of the committee, Mr. Smith, the um subcommittee chair of the trade committee, and our ranking member, uh Mr.
▶ 1:44:32Neil and our ranking member on the subcommittee trade for even though we are experiencing an imperial presidency that has uh that doesn't want to see this extension uh for any more than a year and there doesn't seem to be an appetite among most of our Republican colleagues to um to jettison the views of this imperial presidency somehow.
▶ 1:45:01How somehow our chairman has managed to get before us this bill that will provide the shortest extension of AGOA, but it would be a three-year extension to provide some certainty to the program and to truly give us an opportunity to work through some of the concerns uh around labor, the environment, and other issues that have been raised here today.
▶ 1:45:30Uh I would just uh commend to you uh an old adage that we need to live to fight another day and that's what uh that's what this markup provides us. So I I just want to before I yield back I just want to thank everybody for their work on this. Um I too had an opportunity to talk to Mr. Wrangle.
▶ 1:45:52Uh I didn't get a chance to serve with him on the Ways and Means Committee, but he um uh he certainly uh appealed to me even though I'm not on the trade subcommittee. Uh he certainly asked me to to protect this program.
▶ 1:46:10And it's not it's important not only uh it's important for all of the reasons that I think people on a bipartisan basis um has commended to us today is that we don't want to just leave Africa um to the that market uh to China uh alone.
▶ 1:46:33We want to have an influence on the continent and I think that to just disarm uh by allowing this program to continue to languish uh would be a mistake. And with that uh Mr. Chairman, I would I would yield back.
▶ 1:46:49Thank you, Mr. Bole.
▶ 1:46:52Thank you, Chair. I move to uh strike the last word. You know, it's been several years since trade adjustment assistance or TAA has expired, and I don't see any movement in any proposed uh legislation that we'll be taking up, whether this or anything else, to extend it. And that's wrong. For years in this country, there was essentially a bargain, an imperfect one, but a bargain.
▶ 1:47:22If we were going to re if we were going to open our markets to global competition, we at least would make investments in supporting those workers who lost their jobs because of that trade deal. We would at least provide income support. We would provide retraining, provide other sorts of assistance.
▶ 1:47:44Well, it's been several years now since TAA expired, and frankly, I don't see any short-term or mediate- term hope that it's going to be extended. That is wrong. I remember, it's now been almost 10 years, when the Nabiscoco plant in my home community closed. It was closed by Mundles, company that was paying its CEO at the time, $100 million a year. Over 300 workers lost their jobs.
▶ 1:48:14wasn't just the workers who were impacted. It's the spouse, it's the kids, it's the entire community. That happened again in Chicago. The same company, Mundles, by the way, having banner years while doing it because they shipped the jobs to Mexico in this case. At the very least, we have an obligation to provide assistance to those workers.
▶ 1:48:42So I I think it's a mistake, frankly, to reauthorize any of these trade deals without immediately taking up TAA. I don't see any justification for it. We have an obligation to American workers that we are not fulfilling in this moment. I yield back.
▶ 1:49:00Mr. Petta.
▶ 1:49:03Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. I am pleased to see the committee take this affirmative step towards extending these critical trade preference programs especially AGOA. I commend you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Neil, for leaning into this issue, Mr. Chairman, with your travel, with your advocacy, and with this bill. This program does help the United States support economic development.
▶ 1:49:30It's a flagship policy that grants duty-free access to America for almost 7,000 products from subsahara Africa. But AGOA is about more than just trade. To qualify, countries must respect human rights, uphold labor standards, promote market-based economy, and eliminate barriers to American investment, just to name a few qualifications.
▶ 1:49:55Now, look, as we've heard today, and I admit, I would prefer to see a more comprehensive package that includes items like the trade adjustment assistance and builds on the labor standards that are in AGOA. But allowing AGOA to remain lapsed would be a serious blow to the United States interest and the continent of Africa.
▶ 1:50:18The US wants to support governments and institutions that our values align with and our promotion of democratic principles can continue to create the right environment to deepen trade and investment and counter the malign influence of China, Russia and other foreign actors. However, this comes at a cost as the cost of living in our country, the United States, has skyrocketed and Americans are facing an urgent affordability crisis.
▶ 1:50:46Although the administration made campaign promises about reducing prices right after the inauguration, this administration has consistently made choices that have made life more expensive, especially for my constituents in the 19th congressional district in California. The president's across the board tariffs are the biggest tax increase on workers and working families in modern history.
▶ 1:51:09In fact, they have only raised costs that the president promised to lower, and they are expected to cost households an average of $2,400 a year on items like food and clothing. Additionally, the expiration of the ACA tax credits is expected to balloon the cost of health insurance, more than doubling it for some. The one big beautiful bill ended tax credits that made energy cheaper, while at the same time, it stripped away food assistance and healthcare for Americans who need it.
▶ 1:51:37And the president entered into a tariff war with China, which destroyed that market for our farmers. In 2024, it was $12 billion of a market for US soy. In 2025, that market dropped to zero, and China has moved its markets to South American countries.
▶ 1:51:54Now, I realize that the president announced a bailout for 12 billion from the CCC yesterday, but none of that goes to specialty crop farmers that are getting hammered by retaliatory tariffs on inputs on fertilizer and chemicals and packaging, machinery, and more. Rather than this bailout, why not help all American farmers by just repealing the dang tariffs and reopening the markets? Our farmers, no matter the crop, they don't want handouts.
▶ 1:52:20They want to have the markets and they want to pay less for inputs so that it makes it easier for them to put food on American tables for American families. Look, workers across the spectrum are already feeling the effects of this administration's policies. A poll in September found that almost half of Americans say it's harder to afford groceries today than it was a year ago. Almost 3/4ers of Americans say housing has grown more unaffordable and utility costs are up 12% from last year.
▶ 1:52:49These policy choices by this administration amount to a multi-pronged attack on the lives and livelihoods of our constituents. To add insult to injur injury, while families are struggling to afford full few, excuse me, while they're struggling to afford food, fuel, housing, and health care, the president is claiming the affordability is a democratic hoax. Let's be clear. Affordability is not a hoax.
▶ 1:53:14To working families, to seniors, to the young families who are struggling to fulfill the American dream. We have a responsibility to exert our congressional authority and check this administration when policies threaten our constituents. That means standing up to these tariffs and passing legislation that reclaim our article one authorities and actually lower costs.
▶ 1:53:36I do support this bill and the extension of OGOA, but I also urge my colleagues to recognize the reality that millions of Americans are facing and to stand up to this president's tariffs that have driven costs higher and let's make sure that we live up to our constitutional powers under article one. Thank you again, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 1:53:56Mr. Horseford, I want to thank uh the chairman. I move to strike the last word. Uh let me start by saying supporting the African Growth and Opportunity Act is a priority for me. It is one of the most important economic and strategic tools that the United States has to build a strong partnership with Africa.
▶ 1:54:22It also helps to support American jobs and businesses and ensures that the next generation of global consumers grows up connected to American companies and American values. This extension before us is necessary. Since AGOA expired on September 30th, US importers have been hit with double tariffs, Trump's AIPA tariffs, on top of expired AGOA rates.
▶ 1:54:53That expiration hurts US businesses. It hurts African partners and it undermines the trust that our diplomacy and our development strategy rely on. Now, this administration has already decimated our foreign assistance and capacity building programs uh through the defunding of USAID and the recisions.
▶ 1:55:18These are agencies that AGOA relies on and to be by Congress restoring AGOA today. It is Congress that is providing the means for stability, predictability, and tariff relief. But I want to be equally equally clear. A clean extension cannot mean a blind extension.
▶ 1:55:42If all we do is put a temporary band-aid on a GOA without fixing real structural problems, we risk doing more harm than good for workers, for supply chains, and for US ge geopolitical interest. That is why I am offering three targeted amendments today. They do not undermine the extension or the bill. In fact, they strengthen it. Let me close with this.
▶ 1:56:10By 2050, half of the world's population growth will occur on the continent of Africa. African leaders are telling us directly they want to partner with the United States, not China. But partnership requires reliability and it requires Congress to do its job.
▶ 1:56:32So yes, I strongly support renewing the African Growth and Opportunities Act, but [laughter] I also believe that Congress must take responsibility for how a GOA is implemented and whether it advances our economic and strategic interest. I urge everyone on this committee to stand up for American workers to ensure that we can secure our critical mineral supply chain and to make sure that AGOA can actually work the way that it is intended.
▶ 1:57:02And we can do that today. We don't have to wait by supporting my amendments. We must ensure that this extension is not just a band-aid but a true bridge until we can make meaningful reforms. With that, Mr. Chairman, I'll yield back.
▶ 1:57:19Additional members wish to strike the last word, Mr. Larson.
▶ 1:57:26Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Chairman, I uh want to associate myself with the remarks of U. Mr. Neil and um also would like to submit for the record uh this memo from the AFL CIO. Without
▶ 1:57:42Without objection. I'd also like to submit for the record u uh from uh Connecticut public radio Latino restaurants and Harford reckon with tariffs as Scottas considers cases
▶ 1:57:56without objection.
▶ 1:57:57Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. chairman. Uh listen, we're here today and at this meeting we're on the verge of millions of Americans seeing their health care ripped away from them.
▶ 1:58:18We're sitting here in a meeting bringing up legislation, however it's deemed important by the majority doesn't address what's staring us right in the face and people who will be impacted across this country.
▶ 1:58:41More than 15 million fellow Americans see their health care prices and health care obliterated. 20 million see their prices double.
▶ 1:58:56And as important as this legislation can be, it's not nearly as consequential or important as this committee dealing with this and other issues that I'll address later that impact people's everyday lives.
▶ 1:59:18We sit here in this committee as the holiday season while our constituents back home wonder what Congress is doing about them losing their health care and about their prices doubling. I yield back. Are there additional members who wish to strike the last word?
▶ 1:59:49Seeing none, we will move to amendments. Are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute?
▶ 1:59:56Mr. Horford.
▶ 1:59:57Mr. Chairman, I reserve a point of
▶ 1:59:59A point of order has been reserved. Will the gentleman suspend while the amendment is distributed? Thank you.
▶ 2:00:16Been waiting.
▶ 2:00:26Mr. Horford, you're recognized.
▶ 2:00:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, AGOA's entire purpose is to provide predictable, stable tariff benefits to eligible African countries. Allowing the executive branch to override Congress's tariff authority undermines the very market certainty that AGOA was designed to create.
▶ 2:00:49In recent years, we have watched presidents of both parties assert increasingly expansive unilateral tariff authority, often by passing Congress entirely and destabilizing US trade relationships. If AGOA's tariff preferences can be wiped away by executive action overnight, then the program loses its credibility with partner countries and American businesses lose predictable access to emerging markets.
▶ 2:01:18My amendment restores Congress's constitutional authority over tariffs and ensures that AGOA benefits remain consistent, reliable, and tied to the policies Congress enacts, not subject to the whims of executive overreach. Supporting this amendment is supporting the rule of law, the stability of our trade programs, and the economic partnerships AGOA was created to strengthen.
▶ 2:01:46I urge my colleagues to support this amendment and reaffirm that tariff policy belongs where the constitution put it in the hands of Congress. With that, I yield back.
▶ 2:01:59Further discussion on the amendment. Mr.
▶ 2:02:02let me speak in support of Mr. Horford's uh amendment. The fundamental issue before the Supreme Court at this very moment is who has the power to tax. All who sought to become a member of this committee took a similar position and that was that Congress had the power to tax and the Ways and Means Committee within Congress had the power to tax because this was the starting point in any about tax tariffs and trade.
▶ 2:02:32Clearly, the decision of the majority in Congress to turn this authority unilaterally over to the president has been a mistake as evidenced by price increases everywhere. And I hope that Mr. uh Horford's amendment will prevail. It's a sensible amendment that reinforces the notion that being a member of the Ways and Means Committee is a worthwhile pursuit.
▶ 2:02:58Mr. Smith.
▶ 2:03:00Thank you, [clears throat] Mr. chairman and certainly thank you to my colleagues that uh we can have this opportunity to have a a good discussion. I do want to raise my objection to the specific amendment. I think reasonable people can agree that we can have a broader discussion about the items in the amendment. I would say now uh is not the time given the fact that we've had some good discussions about the the work product of the three-year clean extension.
▶ 2:03:30certainly appreciate the feedback I've gotten from colleagues from both sides of the aisle and you know I'm on the record for saying not a a big fan of tariffs. I I get it. I will also say that there is abundant evidence that the very aggressive posture on trade on leveling the playing field that the current administration President Trump is leading on has war has generated positive results with other countries making concessions
▶ 2:04:00giving some concessions that you know it's my hope that we can ultimately move to a a situation where uh we can move forward congressionally on various policies. Um the the fact that I use the UK as an example that when when they wanted to it seemingly so pass a trade agreement wanted us to support a trade agreement that I would speculate would not have involved agriculture.
▶ 2:04:28I shared my concerns about that and enter the new administration and we have the UK taking our beef and our ethanol. That's a good step in the right direction and I I think that is something we would never have seen under an an a less aggressive posture on leveling the playing field. One moment one moment I [clears throat]
▶ 2:04:51I'm concerned
▶ 2:04:53you know that we um you know with this amendment it kind of distracts from the from the issue at hand and and again I am anxious to have uh a broader discussion. And I I think looking back during the first Trump administration when USMCA was ultimately adopted, that was a result of many discussions, bipartisan discussions that were had.
▶ 2:05:17Ultimately a Trump priority getting adopted when Nancy Pelosi was speaker and and the Democrats were in the majority. I appreciate that fact that we could ultimately get that done. uh that has given us opportunities now to to act on trade that I think have have been productive. And now USMCA under the review that was requested by the Trump the previous Trump administration without the anticipation of overseeing the review currently taking place.
▶ 2:05:46But here we are in in a in a position that um we can move forward with a Goa a clean three hour or three threeh hour excuse me a three-year uh a Goa that I think can be lead to more productive conversations moving forward but this this amendment I I appreciate your efforts uh I think it it would be better placed uh another occasion where we can move forward on a GOA.
▶ 2:06:11Would the gentleman yield?
▶ 2:06:12Gentleman yield.
▶ 2:06:13Uh who's first? I I will yield.
▶ 2:06:16Thank you. Uh would the gentleman apply the same logic to Argentina?
▶ 2:06:20In what respect?
▶ 2:06:21That you've used the example of the UK and it seems to me as though there's been a $40 billion uh giveaway to Argentina based upon the same principle that the gentleman has outlined. It's hard for us to argue that trade relations in the world have gotten better because of these positions.
▶ 2:06:38I will tell you that I think that we have made progress on leveling the playing field and uh there are strategies employed that are different along the way but it we've seen advancements and I think uh we can take those moving forward and uh build constructively on those as we involve
▶ 2:06:58The gentleman yield.
▶ 2:07:01Thank you. Um, I I was going to say if you represented farm country, you may have a different uh thought about this, but I think you do. And uh I I realize this is on AGOA, but the fact that you when you stated that that uh in more general terms, the impact of tariffs, tariffs are killing folks in agriculture. And we need to look at now, not we should debate this or consider this down the road.
▶ 2:07:30We need to talk about this these things now. I've got farmers who are going out of business
▶ 2:07:37reserving the right here. Reclaiming my time. Sorry. Uh fact of the matter is I I hear from egg producers all the time. There there's frustrations given market developments and so forth. I get it. But there also a lot of of supportive egg producers of leveling the playing field. And the president took some action this week on helping out agriculture. I appreciate that.
▶ 2:08:00I think that were was a result of of some thoughtful discussions from our colleagues and and the secretary of agg and and others that uh I think you know what we have before us today with the three-year extension of of AGOA is such a positive step in the right direction that it's coming from us uh legislatively.
▶ 2:08:22I I certainly would hope the Senate will take it up uh quickly because time is of the essence and I don't want to have distractions along the way that I uh think this amendment could could bring about. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 2:08:36Thank you. Further discussion on the amendment. Mr. Doggy,
▶ 2:08:39once upon a time in this committee, Republicans had a commitment to supporting more international commerce. And when some of us raised questions about whether or not that international commerce was leading to lower worker standards, shifting jobs overseas, uh, and creating environmental problems, or rewarding those who engaged in horrible human rights abuses, Republicans said, "Oh, no.
▶ 2:09:07We can't give consideration to those matters because the only thing that counts is more trade and more international commerce." But this year, with the most protectionist president in American modern history, Republicans have grown totally moot. The success that Mr. Smith just referred to, that President Trump has had about how he's forced others to make changes.
▶ 2:09:31We have the highest average tariffs in this country today in a hundred years under this president, and these Republicans are totally silent about it. the soybean farmers. The president has a 16 billion a 12 billion dollar bailout of them and is using his tariff money to pay them for the problems that his tariffs caused. And some of those markets are not coming back. They've gone to Argentina where he had, as Mr.
▶ 2:10:00Neil pointed out, a bailout of Argentina, not for any good policy reason, but because he liked another extremist down in These policies do not make sense for the American people. There are some considerations that need to be given about unfair trade practices by China and other countries.
▶ 2:10:21But his whimsical approach to announcing a tariff here and a tariff there sometimes because he doesn't like the way a court operates in another country for another of his uh fascist buddies. Uh that's not a policy that helps American consumers. The Wall Street Journal again reported this week that American ports are not modernizing to stay ahead in international commerce because they can't afford President Trump's tariffs.
▶ 2:10:48And it's not just those little girls that he complains about that want too many dollars for Christmas. It's serious uh industrialization of our country and their ability to engage in international trade that they are impairing with his policies. Now, how does this relate to Mr. for Horford's very excellent amendment. Well, they want to grant some preferences to some of these African countries to give them advantage over other countries and accessing the American market.
▶ 2:11:18They don't care what the policies that those African countries have toward their own people or toward the destruction of key environmental resources that benefit all of us. They want to give all the power, expand the power of President Trump to have those uh preferences. But that's small compared to a 50% tariff imposed on a country that relies on textile exports to the United States.
▶ 2:11:43So approving the preferences and leaving uh President Trump the ability to impose these whimsical tariffs totally disregard the role of Congress. Uh who uh this this Congress of course with a Republican majority does not believe in oversight. And they got a reminder of that with our colleague Marjorie Taylor Green, the most loyal MAGA member of this Congress declared a traitor because she had the audacity to question the president on anything.
▶ 2:12:11so so fearful that they might get a mean tweet. They can't speak up about trade. They can't speak up about the harm being caused to American families with prices that are going to cost them over $1,000 this year as a result of these new Trump tariff taxes. And if we do not adopt Mr. for Horford's excellent amendment. These African countries will continue to be uh subject to his whims.
▶ 2:12:38Uh if his family doesn't get enough enrichment out of a particular country, if some far-right leader is not reelected, he can put them in or out. He can add huge tariffs uh to that country and AGOA will be a footnote compared to the damage that he does.
▶ 2:12:56Indeed, AGOA is a footnote to the damage that he has done to our relations with Africa this year and the way he has put them into the hands of the successor to the Wagner group from Russia, his buddy Vladimir Putin, and the way he has handed them over to a very aggressive PRC with Xi Jinping. Uh he's giving them the advantages as we withdraw. AGOA by itself is not sufficient. Mr. Horsford's amendment is essential. I yield back.
▶ 2:13:27Additional members wish to strike the last word on the amendment. Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Mr. Horseford. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 2:13:39Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 2:13:41Mr. Buchanan, no. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska, no. Mr. Kelly, Mr. Kelly, no. Mr. Mr. Schwikert, Mr. Leood, Mr. Le Hood, No Mr. Mr. Arrington. No. Mr. Estus Mr. Estus. No Mr. Smucker.
▶ 2:14:12Mr. Hearn,
▶ 2:14:15Mr. Hearn, no. Mrs. Miller Mrs. Miller. No. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr. Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie. Miss. Tenny. Miss. Tenny. No. Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach. No.
▶ 2:14:45Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore. No. Miss Vanine. Miss Vanine. No. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. No. Miss Malotakus. Miss Malotakus. No. Mr. Kerry. Mr. Kerry. No. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 2:15:04Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 2:15:13Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran.
▶ 2:15:16Mr. Moran. No, Mr. Neil.
▶ 2:15:21Mr. Neil. Yes, Mr. Dogget.
▶ 2:15:25Mr. Dogget. Yes, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes, Mr. Larson. Mr. Larson. Yes, Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes, Miss Delben, Miss Delben. Yes, Miss Chu.
▶ 2:15:53Miss Chu. Yes, Miss Moore.
▶ 2:15:56Miss Moore. Yes, Mr. Boille.
▶ 2:16:00Mr. Boille. Yes, Mr. Byer.
▶ 2:16:03Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 2:16:08Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider.
▶ 2:16:12Mr. Schneider. Yes.
▶ 2:16:14Mr. Petta. Miss Panetta. Yes. Mr. Gomez. Mr. Horford. Mr. Horseford. Yes. Miss
▶ 2:16:27Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy. Mr. Schwikert. Mr. Mr. Schwikert. No. Mr. Mr. Smucker. Mr.
▶ 2:16:54Stwie, Mr. Miller, Miss Sanchez, Mr. Gomez, Mr. Swazy.
▶ 2:17:16Chairman Smith.
▶ 2:17:18Chairman Smith. No.
▶ 2:17:23How is Mr. Gomez recorded?
▶ 2:17:26Mr. Gomez is not recorded.
▶ 2:17:30Mr. Gomez yet?
▶ 2:18:02The clerk will report the vote.
▶ 2:18:07Uh m Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 17. The nos are 23. There being 17 yeses and 23 nos, the amendment is not adopted. Are there additional amendments?
▶ 2:18:21Mr. Chair, I have an amendment at the
▶ 2:18:24Mr. Chairman,
▶ 2:18:26I reserve a point of order.
▶ 2:18:28Point of order. Will the gentleman um gentlemen uh with the gentle lady um uh
▶ 2:18:38suspend while the amendment is is proceeding. Mu
▶ 2:18:59Mr. Chair, though I strongly wish that this bill had trade adjustment assistance, I support the AGOA Extension Act because it strengthens economic ties with our partners in subsaharan Africa, supports US businesses and workers, and helps keep cost down for American families. But even as we take up this important bipartisan work today, this is the first full committee activity since September.
▶ 2:19:27And Republicans continue to enable the president's price hikes and have failed to bring forward any meaningful legislation to lower costs. And the American people are paying the price for President Trump's economic sabotage.
▶ 2:19:44And that is exactly why this amendment is necessary because even as we move forward with a bipartisan extension of AGOA, President Trump's reciprocal tariffs remain in place. These tariffs ranging from 10 to 30% undercut the benefits of AGOA and raise costs throughout the supply chains. Republicans are burying their heads in the sand.
▶ 2:20:13And while the Trump agenda continues to drag down the economy, no amount of spin changes the reality that these tariffs make everyday goods more So my amendment ensures that executive order 14257 and any similar order no longer applies to AGOA beneficiary countries and that no duties may be collected under it.
▶ 2:20:44This amendment strengthens the underlying bill by ensuring that the tariff relief Congress intends to provide is not undermined by unilateral executive actions that raise prices. It protects American consumers and businesses and reinforces congressional authority over trade policy. I urge adoption of this amendment and I yield Further discussion on the amendment.
▶ 2:21:15Mr. Smith.
▶ 2:21:16Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I rise in opposition to the amendment. Similar to uh my position on the previous amendment. Um I I will say, you know, given the fact that I my my uh assessment is that there's a lot of support for the the bill in its current form without amendments, and I don't want to distract from that.
▶ 2:21:39I do want to say and and and point out that uh regardless of additional tariffs imposed on countries ago it makes a a huge difference and one example is that many apparel products face tariffs over 30%. So maintaining a tariff preference for African nations over Asian competitors still goes a long way. I appreciate my colleagues opposition to tariffs.
▶ 2:22:02Um, I have my own concerns about tariffs and and I think that and I don't want to get too caught up in the past because we've got a good bill here waiting for our vote that I I think has strong support. Uh, but let let's channel our our efforts in a productive direction. Uh, we can do that today with a a clean a GOA bill and with a three-year still a fairly shortterm extension. I would pre personally prefer a much longer extension.
▶ 2:22:32uh but uh our work together here today has generated a a three-year extension. I respect that and think it is a very positive step forward. I yield back.
▶ 2:22:42Further discussion on the amendment? Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Miss Chu. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 2:22:52Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. No. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. No. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Le Hood. Mr. Arrington. Mr.
▶ 2:23:22Arrington. No. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. No. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn, no.
▶ 2:23:35Mr. Hearn, no. Mrs. Miller. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Kristoff. Mr. Fitzpatrick.
▶ 2:23:55Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie. Miss. Tenny. Miss. Tenny. No. Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mr. Moore. No.
▶ 2:24:11Mr. Moore. No. Miss. Van.
▶ 2:24:15Miss. Van. No. Mr. Fenstra. Miss. Mr. Fenstra. No. Miss. Maliotakis.
▶ 2:24:24Mr. Kerry. Mr. Kerry. No. Mr. Yakam. Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller.
▶ 2:24:40Mr. Bean.
▶ 2:24:41Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran. Mr. Neil.
▶ 2:24:51Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Mr. Thompson.
▶ 2:24:59Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 2:25:03Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Sul. Yes. Miss. Delen. Miss. Delen. Yes. Miss. Chu. Miss. Chu. Yes. Miss. Moore. Miss. Mo. Miss. Moore. Yes. Mr. Boille.
▶ 2:25:28Mr. Boille. Yes.
▶ 2:25:31Mr. Byer.
▶ 2:25:32Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 2:25:36Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider. Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta.
▶ 2:25:43Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 2:25:46Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horford.
▶ 2:25:49Mr. Horford. Yes. Miss Plask.
▶ 2:25:52Miss Plask. Yes.
▶ 2:25:55Mr. Swasy.
▶ 2:25:56Yes. Mr. Swazy, yes.
▶ 2:26:01Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 2:26:03Mr. Buchanan, no.
▶ 2:26:05Mr. Schwiker,
▶ 2:26:08Mr. Schwikert, no. Mr. Le Hood,
▶ 2:26:12Mr. Le Hood, no. Mr. Smucker. Mrs. Miller.
▶ 2:26:23Mrs. Miller. No Mr. Kristoff Mr. Kristoff. No Mr. Stwie.
▶ 2:26:36Miss Malotakus.
▶ 2:26:38Miss Malotakus. No. Mr. Miller. Mr. Moran.
▶ 2:26:48Mr. Moran. No.
▶ 2:26:51Mr. Dogit, Miss Sanchez.
▶ 2:27:03Chairman Smith,
▶ 2:27:04no. Chairman Smith. No.
▶ 2:27:30The clerk will report the vote. Chairman Smith, the yeses are 17 and the nos are 23.
▶ 2:27:38There being 17 yeses and 23 nos, the amendment is not adopted. Further
▶ 2:27:47Mr. Horford.
▶ 2:27:50Mr. Chairman, I have an amendment at the
▶ 2:27:52Mr. Chairman, I reserve a point of
▶ 2:27:54Point of order has been reserved. Would the gentleman suspend while the amendment is distributed? Mr. Horford, you're recognized.
▶ 2:28:12Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before begin uh I begin speaking about my amendment, I would like to ask unanimous consent to include for the record a statement from my colleague, Miss Sanchez.
▶ 2:28:23Without so ordered.
▶ 2:28:25Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Today, I offer an amendment to reauthorize the trade adjustment assistance program, ensuring American workers are not left behind as global competition intensifies. We all know that TAA has long served as a crucial lifeline for American workers displaced by shifts in trade, providing retraining and job placement assistance that help families regain stability.
▶ 2:28:56In other words, this is a program to help workers who jobs were destroyed because of offshoring. But these workers have been left in the cold thanks to Congress's inaction on reauthorizing taa. The allowance for the trade adjustment assistance program to lapse was an aband abandonment to workers. But today, I hope my colleagues will join me in writing this wrong.
▶ 2:29:25This reauthorization is this committee and this Congress's opportunity to help these workers. If my colleagues are serious about America First, they'd be willing to give American workers the support that they need. And I would just add, I know we've um discussed two amendments or three amendments thus far.
▶ 2:29:50The whole part part process of regular order is for us to com consider these amendments. The underlying bill doesn't mean that there can't be improvement today. And so to the chairman of the subcommittee, the argument that we don't need to make any changes to make these bills any better, that's our job. That's what we are elected to do. And that's why we're here today.
▶ 2:30:20Um, and to reject the amendments is saying that US workers are not a priority. America first is not a priority. That helping workers get training or retraining is not a priority.
▶ 2:30:35Uh before I came to Congress, I ran Nevada's largest job training program and I know the benefits of helping displaced workers get the training that they need to get back into the workforce, creating economic opportunity to provide self-sufficiency for themselves and their households.
▶ 2:30:56And that should be the priority of this to do anything less is abandoning American workers and we cannot allow that to go on any moment further. So I reject the premise that no changes to the underlying bill can be made. That is what we're here to do. That is the job we've been elected to do.
▶ 2:31:21And I urge my b my colleagues to take this amendment seriously and not to ignore American workers. With that, I yield back.
▶ 2:31:31I recognize myself. Um, what I will say is is that, um, this is an important program. AGOA is extremely important. Um, something that many of us in Congress has worked on for years. Um, when it expired on September 30th, we need to figure out a way to bring the program back until there's additional reforms.
▶ 2:31:53We've been discussing on both sides of the aisle of of reforms that's needed to AGOA and there are reforms that's needed to AGOA. Um there's also a lot of other trade items that that we've been trying to resolve and get to the point of um but they're not agreed to yet. This is this is the step to make sure that the program comes into place while we continue those discussions.
▶ 2:32:20That is that is why I will not support any amendments to this language um for this purpose of making sure the program stays in existence.
▶ 2:32:31Of course.
▶ 2:32:33Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate and heard you at the beginning in the opening that because of the importance to renew AGOA and to move that process forward that that's why you are bringing this three-year extension and I fundamentally appreciate and agree with your sincerity in that action.
▶ 2:32:59What I heard from the chairman of the subcommittee is that we can't consider any proposals that help strengthen a GOA. And yes, we can debate the merits of each on its own, but to not take up debate or to prioritize issues that have also been on the table such as trade adjustment agreement, such as um protecting US workers to
▶ 2:33:30me is a missed opportunity that we have the obligation to address. Now 3 years is a long time and I am concerned that not addressing these other issues will actually cause those to be delayed even further rather than taking them up today.
▶ 2:33:50So I appreciate the chairman's uh commitment around AGOA but I just reject the underlying argument that it cannot be strengthened further and I hope that you and other members on the majority side will consider the merits of each amendment on their own. Thank you. I
▶ 2:34:09thank you. Um Mr. Bole.
▶ 2:34:11Yeah. Seek uh recognition on this amendment. I want to uh just briefly express my full support for the amendment offered by Mr. Horsford. Uh I think that it is absolutely uh necessary and indeed vital uh and it has my full support that I yield back.
▶ 2:34:32Further discussion on the amendment. Miss Plask.
▶ 2:34:39Thank you for um recognizing me, Mr. Chair. Uh I also wanted to express my support of this amendment and to the sentiment of my colleague Mr. Horseford with regard to us taking up uh relevant issues during the debate that we have here in this um incredibly important committee as we are looking to an extension of a vitally important um agreement with our African partners.
▶ 2:35:08I am have the honor of not just being on ways and means and on the trade subcommittee but I'm also on the intelligence committee and I have been traveling extensively in the last three years in Africa particularly in the Sahel um region which is being riddled by global power competition with our competitors China
▶ 2:35:39as well as Russia. And one of the uh sentiments that you hear continually from African leaders, business people, etc. is the stagnation of American engagement, particularly in the private sector in on the continent and our lack of a forwardleaning um policy to be able to
▶ 2:36:09compete vigorously with China and with Russia. We are extending a very important agreement for three years, but we all know the amount of coups and engagement that will happen on the continent during that period. And we've got to take up an expansion.
▶ 2:36:34And this committee is charged with creating mechanisms so that American businesses can grow on the continent and can be competitive and we seen as a vital partner. Uh France has been kicked out. England is not so much a player and it is Russia eating our lunch on the continent.
▶ 2:37:02Uh when if China is able to create a rail from one extent to the coast, we're going to be in trouble. Vagner is getting paid in rare minerals. Lithium is causing the death of millions of people in Africa.
▶ 2:37:24These are self-imposed wars that are about about economics, about money and we have got to if not the government itself and I understand government not being the one although I think Millennial Challenge does an amazing job but we have got to create an environment in which more American businesses can be engaged in not just
▶ 2:37:54um a a reauthorization of industries and areas that we are already working on, but an expansion. And so I hear you, Mr. chair and I uh I know your sincerity on this as well as the subcommittee on engaging with Africa, but we've got to move with haste on how we're going to create an environment for American businesses or else uh the place that has the largest growing youth population
▶ 2:38:24in the world, over 200 million people under the age of 18, we're we're going to be in trouble. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:38:35Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 2:38:37let me add to the gentle lady. I've been to Africa first time in 1987, uh, and and done a lot of trips there. Uh, I agree with you 100%. We're not engaged. We're not active. And frankly, just from my own observation, because I was chairman of the subcommittee at some point, we haven't been committed either side.
▶ 2:39:01Uh I hate to say it especially with yourselves we how to get to yes and uh but we need to do a lot more China you go there makes me sick to see four-lane roads being built government buildings being built the Chinese aren't building them for free uh they're building them because they've got a vested interest in the whole thing so we have to find a way to come together and get back in the trade business we did USMCA that was great but that's the only thing we've done that was been material in my mind there's been other things
▶ 2:39:31probably in the last 10 or 12 years. So, we got to get engaged there, but we got to be engaged across the planet. Uh, Indonesia, we're going to be taking a trip there. They have minerals and everything. Uh, Russia's China, they're active. They're active all over the place. We have to decide if we're going to be in the business or not.
▶ 2:39:50I know there's a lot of influence from specialty u that puts pressure on your side of the aisle, but if we're going to be serious about it, we've got to find a way to come together and get back in the business because we have since I've been here other than USMCA and we did something with Colombia uh and a couple other countries in South America. That's been it. But yet you got 200 countries on the planet. You got seven billion people. You got a billion people in Africa. So I support your thoughts.
▶ 2:40:18you probably spent a lot more time and I understand it better, but I've been there quite a bit and I see what's happening. We're not engaged like we should be. We do something, but not enough. Thank you,
▶ 2:40:28Mr. Smith.
▶ 2:40:30Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And [clears throat] certainly thank you to my colleagues uh across the aisle who I think have very relevant comments and certainly I associate my my own comments with the chairman's comments about kind of the issue at hand, the amendment, the bill and the process moving forward. I do find my colleagues wishes to support workers and help workers. I think that is very sincere. Uh I myself want to empower workers as well.
▶ 2:40:59I think when we look at what we can do to help retrain workers, uh I am encouraged when I hear employers all the time tell me that they want to find more workers. Number one, they are willing to invest in workers and they will invest not only in their training and education but put them on the payroll at the same These are modern methods of helping workers and I hope that we can recognize that moving forward
▶ 2:41:30and and not look uh backward too much but look forward in a way that's best for workers, best for the economy, best for u opportunity moving forward and especially when we have uh I think a bipartisan opportunity here to take a step in the right direction. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 2:41:46Further discussion of the amendment? Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Mr. Horseford. Um, the clerk will call the
▶ 2:41:56Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 2:41:57Mr. Buchanan. No. Mr. Smith in Nebraska. Mr. Smith in Nebraska. No. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. No. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Le Hood.
▶ 2:42:11Mr. Leood. No. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 2:42:18Mr. Arrington. No. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. No. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn. No. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. No. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie.
▶ 2:42:51Miss Tenny. Miss Tenny. No.
▶ 2:42:56Mrs. Fishbach.
▶ 2:42:58Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mr. Moore.
▶ 2:43:02Mr. Moore. No. Miss. Van. Miss. Van. No. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. No. Miss.
▶ 2:43:14Mr. Kerry.
▶ 2:43:16Mr. Kerry. No. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 2:43:20Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller.
▶ 2:43:25Mr. Bean.
▶ 2:43:27Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran.
▶ 2:43:30Mr. Moran. No. Mr. Neil.
▶ 2:43:36Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 2:43:45Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes. Mr. Delben. Miss Delen. Yes. Miss Chu. Miss Chu. Yes. Miss Moore.
▶ 2:44:04Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Bole. Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer.
▶ 2:44:10Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 2:44:13Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneder.
▶ 2:44:16Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta,
▶ 2:44:20Mr. Petta, yes. Mr. Gomez,
▶ 2:44:24Mr. Gomez, yes. Mr. Horseford,
▶ 2:44:28Mr. Horseford. Yes. Miss Plask.
▶ 2:44:31Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 2:44:35Mr. Swazy. Yes.
▶ 2:44:40Mr. Schwikert.
▶ 2:44:42Mr. Schwikert. No. Mr. Smucker.
▶ 2:44:51Mr. Stwie. Miss Malotakus. Miss Malotakus. No. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez.
▶ 2:45:10Chairman Smith.
▶ 2:45:13Chairman Smith. No. Clerk will report the vote.
▶ 2:45:44Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 18 and the nos are 23.
▶ 2:45:48There being 18 yeses and 23 nos, the amendment is not adopted. Are there further amendments? Mr. Horford.
▶ 2:45:57Mr. Chairman, Iman, I have amendment at the desk.
▶ 2:46:00A point of order has been reserved. Will the gentleman gentleman suspend while the amendment is distributed?
▶ 2:46:06Thank you.
▶ 2:46:18I have 10 amendments at the desk.
▶ 2:46:24The gentleman may proceed.
▶ 2:46:26Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Uh the third time will be a charm, I'm sure. Uh I'd like to offer this amendment to ensure that this short AGOA extension addresses the most urgent trade issue in US Africa relations that of the issue of critical minerals. The minerals race is happening right now. Mining and processing investments are long lead projects.
▶ 2:46:52If we don't act during this short extension window, we will lose the next decade of supply chains. If the US doesn't engage with Africa, others will. China has already locked up significant cobalt, graphite, and other key materials across the continent. My amendment simply ensures our Africa policy is tied directly to US jobs, manufacturing, national security, and supply chain resilience.
▶ 2:47:22It requires the administration to assess how assistance affects domestic supply chain and domestic production of minerals. A clean extension that ignores critical minerals isn't clean. It is a strategic concession for China. It locks in the status quo where China dominates African mining and mining becomes the US uh becau because and mining because the US refuses to compete.
▶ 2:47:52And to be clear, this amendment fits squarely within AGOA's purpose. AGOA already authorizes technical assistance, economic cooperation, and sector development. My amendment is not about changing AGOA's purpose. This is a simple update to ensure it reflects 21st century trade. To my colleagues, I implore you that we cannot wait three years.
▶ 2:48:193 years is the minerals window where mining and processing projects will already be negotiated and we will see them shape the global supply chains for decades. And this isn't just my view.
▶ 2:48:33President Trump's own national security strategy, which was released last week, states plainly, and I quote, "The US should transition to a trade and investment focused relationship with Africa." An an immediate area for US investment in Africa includes critical mineral development," unquote.
▶ 2:48:58Now, there is a lot I don't agree with the president on, but I agree that we must improve partnerships in Africa to expand access to critical minerals. If any of my Republican colleagues chooses to vote against this amendment, you're really voting in opposition of President Trump's own national security strategy. If we wait for a full rewrite, we're legislating after the fact.
▶ 2:49:25My amendment does not create a new program or a new tariff regime or a new office, no new money, no new bureaucracy. It simply updates AGOA's existing technical assistance objectives to include minerals and requires a basic annual report to Congress on how the administration is supporting US Africa mineral partnerships and countering the influence of foreign entities of concern
▶ 2:49:55that are controlled by China and other adversaries. If AGOA is going to remain relevant in the next decade, this is the minimum modernization that we need to pass right now. I urge adoption of this amendment and look forward to the Mr. Smith,
▶ 2:50:15thank you, Mr. Chairman. I and I thank my colleague uh on the other side for his amendment. Uh I I think it has some merit, but uh given the current effort to forward a clean bill uh without some of our various priorities, there there are some that I'd like to pursue, too. But now is not the time. And the absolute worst thing that we could do in terms of critical minerals and other priorities and and benefits that we see of a GOA would be to let it expire.
▶ 2:50:45Let it stay expired, do nothing, kick the can, whatever. But fact of the matter is we've got a very great opportunity here with a three-year clean extension. It's the right way to go. We can continue to have the conversations that we need. We know we need to have to modernize, to reform, to update, and uh we can have that moving forward after we pass a clean bill. I urge uh a no vote on the amendment. Thank you. I yield back. Further discussion on the amendment.
▶ 2:51:15Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Mr. Horzford. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 2:51:22Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 2:51:23Mr. Buchanan, no. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. No. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. No. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Leood. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Arrington. No. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. No. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn.
▶ 2:51:53No. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. No. Dr. Murphy. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr. Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie. Miss. Tenny. Miss. Tenny. No. Mrs.
▶ 2:52:17M. Miss Fishbach,
▶ 2:52:20no. Mr. Moore,
▶ 2:52:23Mr. Moore, no. Miss Vanine, Miss Vanine, no Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra, no. Miss Maliotakus, Miss Maliotakus, no Mr. Kerry, no
▶ 2:52:37Mr. Kerry, no Mr. Yakam.
▶ 2:52:40Mr. Yakam, no Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean,
▶ 2:52:46Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran.
▶ 2:52:50Mr. Moran. No. Mr. Neil. Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson.
▶ 2:53:00Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 2:53:03Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes. Miss Delen Mr. Delben. Yes. Miss Chu Miss Chu. Yes. Miss Moore. Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Boille.
▶ 2:53:28Mr. Bole. Yes. Mr. Byer.
▶ 2:53:32Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 2:53:36Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider.
▶ 2:53:39Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta.
▶ 2:53:42Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez. Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horford. Mr. Horford. Yes. Miss Plask. Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 2:53:55Mr. Swazy. Yes. Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 2:54:01Mr. Schwikert. No. Mr. Le Hood. Mr. Smucker. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Stwie. Mr. Miller. Mr. Davis. Miss. Sanchez.
▶ 2:54:35Chairman Smith.
▶ 2:54:37Chairman Smith. No. Clerk will report the vote.
▶ 2:55:02Yeses are 17. The nos are 22.
▶ 2:55:06There being 17 yeses and 22 nos, the amendment is not adopted. Are there additional amendments?
▶ 2:55:15Seeing none.
▶ 2:55:16Yes, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:55:17Mr. Thompson,
▶ 2:55:17I have an amendment at the desk.
▶ 2:55:19Mr. Chairman, I reserve a point of
▶ 2:55:21A point of order has been reserved. Will the gentleman suspend while the amendment is distributed?
▶ 2:55:38Gentlemen, proceed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Agricultural Secretary Rollins said that we're in the golden age of agriculture. And you know, she might be right if she was talking about farmers in Argentina or Brazil. Our foreign competitors are not only eating our lunch with record agricultural exports, but thanks to the Trump administration, Americans are eating more Argentina beef.
▶ 2:56:09While touting a golden age, Secretary Rollins announced a bitter consolation prize for farmers. Meager government handouts that leave our farmers asking, "Where is the beef?" My amendment would reauthorize the trade adjustment assistance program for our farmers and importantly ensure that farmers can also be compensated for the losses they face from this administration's self-imposed
▶ 2:56:40tariff war. Every member of this committee knows that assistance is needed for our hardworking agricultural producers. I ask for your support to give American farmers and ranchers the lifeline that they so desperately need. I yield back.
▶ 2:56:58Further discussion on the amendment.
▶ 2:57:01Mr. Smith.
▶ 2:57:02Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I I certainly raised my concerns about this. I'll I'll I'll let uh egg producers, not just in my district, but across America, speak for themselves in terms of what is most helpful uh moving forward or even in the in the meantime as as things um can be challenging. Uh rowcrop farmers facing some challenges that predate the current administration. Again, I don't want to get too too caught up in the past.
▶ 2:57:31As we do move forward with a great opportunity to take a step uh in the right direction. Uh I object to this this amendment. I certainly urge a no vote. Um I I think that the sponsor of the amendment is sincere and wanting to help farmers. I get that. But certainly as it relates to the the broader dialogue and exchange of ideas and information, I I'll let uh egg producers speak for themselves and and then give emphasis to what they feel uh is most helpful moving forward.
▶ 2:58:00And that's a more level playing field with trade writ large and uh we should focus on that moving forward. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 2:58:10Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. And and um I've been particularly quiet today because I am glad that we're here working on these bills. But I um as the only member on this committee from the state of Wisconsin, which I represent Milwaukee and the suburbs, but Wisconsin is an agricultural state, and our farmers have suffered tremendously from the trade policies that this
▶ 2:58:42has uh engineered. And I say engineered because it just didn't have to be this way. You know, our largest trading partner for our export of soybeans went to China and that market has been destroyed. I had an opportunity to meet with a former member of this committee. You may remember him, Ron Kine, uh who represented farmers.
▶ 2:59:08And he shared with me um the fact that farmers uh in Wisconsin die by suicide at twice the the national average. And a lot of it has to do with our uh with with their loss of markets. Now, you know, Mr.
▶ 2:59:34Smith of Nebraska did point out that these problems existed before this administration. Uh but our solution has always been the same to tamper with our trading policy and then to just proi you know provide some subsidy or welfare uh to uh to farmers and it's not fair and it's not well um because farmers want their markets.
▶ 3:00:03uh and the solution is not just to provide subsidies but we can't ignore the fact that uh as Mr. Horserford previously offered the the amendment on the trade adjustment assistance program for American workers.
▶ 3:00:20That's true of farmers as well that that uh this particular amendment um because farmers have been you have been targeted I would say by these trade adjustment assistance and I I just think that a trade adjustment assistance program um is a lot uh is a is a lot more proactive than just simply writing checks uh and subsidies for this uh for this market
▶ 3:00:51that we have continued to destroy that along with the development of corporate corporatizing if I can create a word our agricultural sector. Um, I think Republican policies have been very unfair to farmers. And even though I don't represent any farmers, I eat every single day.
▶ 3:01:17And since this administration came into office, I certainly don't take that for granted. Every time I look at the plate of vegetables and fresh vegetables and and and stuff on my on my plate, you know, I say a little prayer for all of the farmers in the country in California and in Wisconsin who produce that.
▶ 3:01:38I had the opportunity to be hosted by one of the great restaurant tours in Milwaukee, one of these celebrity chefs that invited farmers to eat with us. And I got a really serious education about the importance of the our our agricultural industry.
▶ 3:02:01And so, um, I, you know, I haven't spoken very much today, but I would have to say that I support Mr. Thompson's amendment on behalf of, uh, all of the farmers in America. All of us eat. We all have that in common, no matter what our actual constituency is. And with that, I would yield back.
▶ 3:02:22Further discussion on the amendment? Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Mr. Thompson. The clerk will call the role. Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. No. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. No. Mr. Schweiker. Mr. Leood. Mr. Le Hood. No. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 3:02:53Mr. Arrington. No. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. No. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn. No. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. No. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr.
▶ 3:03:15Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie. Miss. Tenny. Miss. Tenny. No. Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore. No. Miss. Miss Vanine, Mr. Fenstra, Mr. Fenstra, No. Malotakus. Miss Malotakus. No. Mr. Kerry.
▶ 3:03:42Mr. Kerry. No. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 3:03:46Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 3:03:53Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran.
▶ 3:03:56Mr. Moran. No. Mr. Neil. Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 3:04:08Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes. Miss Delen. Miss Delen. Yes. Miss Chu. Miss Chu. Yes. Miss Moore. Miss Moore, yes. Mr. Boille,
▶ 3:04:28Mr. Boille, yes. Mr. Byer, hi.
▶ 3:04:31Mr. Byer, yes. Mr. Evans,
▶ 3:04:34Mr. Evans, yes. Mr. Schneder,
▶ 3:04:37Mr. Schneider, yes. Mr. Petta,
▶ 3:04:40Mr. Petta, yes. Mr. Gomez, Mr. Gomez, yes. Mr. Horseford. Mr. Horsford. Yes. Mr. Plask. Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy. Mr. Mr. Swazy. Yes. Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 3:05:01Mr. Buchanan. No. Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 3:05:04Mr. Schwiker. No. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Stwie, Miss Vanine, Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez.
▶ 3:05:26Chairman Smith.
▶ 3:05:29Chairman Smith. No. The clerk will report the vote. Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 18 and the nos are 22.
▶ 3:05:59There being 18 yeses and 22 nos, the amendment is not adopted. Are there further amendments? Seeing none, the question is on the adoption of the amendment and the nature of a substitute. All those in favor signify by saying I. I.
▶ 3:06:14I. Those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Smith for the purpose of offering a
▶ 3:06:27Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee favorably report HR6500 as amended to the House of Representatives.
▶ 3:06:32The question is on the motion to favorably report HR6500 as amended to the House of Representatives. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 3:06:41Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Yes. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. Yes. Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 3:06:55Mr. Schwikert. Yes. Mr. Leood. Mr. Leood. Yes. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Estus. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn,
▶ 3:07:15Mr. Hearn, yes. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller, yes. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy, yes. Mr. Kustoff,
▶ 3:07:25Mr. Kristoff, yes. Mr. Fitzpatrick,
▶ 3:07:29Mr. Fitzpatrick, yes. Mr. Stwie.
▶ 3:07:33Miss Tenny.
▶ 3:07:35Miss Tenny. Yes. Mrs. Fishbach.
▶ 3:07:38Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore.
▶ 3:07:40Mr. Mr. Moore. Yes. Miss Vanine. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. Yes. Miss Miss Malotakus. Yes. Mr. Kerry. Yes.
▶ 3:08:02Mr. Kerry. Yes. Mr. Yakam. Yes.
▶ 3:08:06Mr. Yakam. Yes. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 3:08:14Mr. Bean. Yes. Mr. Moran.
▶ 3:08:17Mr. Moran. Yes.
▶ 3:08:20Mr. Neil.
▶ 3:08:21Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. No. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 3:08:32Mr. Larson. No. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su Miss Su Yes. Miss Delben. Miss Delben. Yes. Miss Chu Miss Chu. Yes. Mr.
▶ 3:08:52Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Bole.
▶ 3:08:56Mr. Boille. No. Mr. Byer.
▶ 3:08:59Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 3:09:03Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider.
▶ 3:09:07Mr. Schneider. Yes, Mr. Petta.
▶ 3:09:10Mr. Petta. Yes, Mr. Gomez.
▶ 3:09:13Mr. Gomez. Yes, Mr. Horsford,
▶ 3:09:16Mr. Horsford. Yes, Miss Plask.
▶ 3:09:19Miss Plask. Yes,
▶ 3:09:21Mr. Swazy.
▶ 3:09:23Mr. Swazy. Yes,
▶ 3:09:27Mr. Arrington.
▶ 3:09:30Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Estus. Mr. Mr. Smucker.
▶ 3:09:39I don't think so.
▶ 3:09:41Mr. Stwie. Miss Vanine. Miss Vanine. Yes. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez.
▶ 3:10:05Is Mr. Buchanan recorded on this vote.
▶ 3:10:07Mr. Buchanan has not been recorded.
▶ 3:10:12Yes. Yes. Senator.
▶ 3:10:13Mr. Buchanan. Yes.
▶ 3:10:22Chairman Smith.
▶ 3:10:24Chairman Smith. Yes. The clerk will report the
▶ 3:10:54vote.
▶ 3:10:55Mr. Chairman, the eyes are 37 and the nos are three.
▶ 3:10:59There being 37 yeses and three nos, the motion is agreed to and HR6500 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views.
▶ 3:11:22Our next order of business is HR654, the the Haiti Economic Lift Program Extension Act, introduced by Representative Murphy, which extends for three years trade preference programs that reduce tariffs on Haitian apparel and textile imports into the United States.
▶ 3:11:42Like the AGOA program, these programs recently expired and need Haiti has faced years of turmoil brought on by political, economic, and natural disasters. It is not an exaggeration to say that these trade programs are a lifeline for the people of Haiti.
▶ 3:12:02By promoting economic opportunity for the Haitian people, we not only serve a neighbor in need, but we also promote more stability in the region and trade partnerships closer to home. Prosperity in Haiti helps the security of Americans right here at home. I want to commend Dr. Murphy for his leadership on an issue that we know is near and dear to him. Having served as a medical missionary in Haiti, Dr.
▶ 3:12:30Murphy understands and has seen firsthand the economic and humanitarian crisis facing the people of Haiti. And I know that he also is very familiar with North Carolina businesses who have developed reliable suppliers in Haiti that utilize these trade programs. We know these trade programs and the partnerships they promote can be a force for stability and security.
▶ 3:12:58I'm pleased to recognize a gentleman from North Carolina, Dr. Murphy, for an opening statement.
▶ 3:13:02Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you so much for uh bringing this issue to our committee. uh HR6504, the Help Extension Act, uh legislation would provide a three-year extension to Hope help programs that have delivered meaningful and economic opportunities to the thousands of people in Haiti who so desperately need economic stability. As you pointed out, as uh I have started I started going down there in 2010 after the earthquake and I've been down there multiple multiple times.
▶ 3:13:32I know the people of Haiti very very well and I know those who are trying to strive for stability in the midst of chaos and absolute suffering that is going on in the country. Gang violence, political uncertainty and the collapse of basic institutions have devastated daily life and made an even fragile political situation which has been horrible for decades even worse. The hope program remains one of the few functioning lifelines to help with stability in that country.
▶ 3:14:00It will not solve all of Haiti's problems, but it will preserve jobs, provide employers with some measure of certainty so that they can employ the good people of Haiti and offer them a time of resp very very difficult situation. Haiti is in our own backyard. It is in our hemisphere. What happens in our hemisphere affects our ability to keep our nation secure.
▶ 3:14:24We must make sure that this country is prosperous, stable, and doing so is in the squarely in the national interest of the United States. If these jobs were to go away, it breeds further instability where you have countries like the CCP or Islamic terrorists or Venezuela operatives or anyone come in and install their particular regime in the midst of a very, very difficult time.
▶ 3:14:49Without employment opportunities, the Haitian people are pressured to join criminal networks, migrate out of this country, out of that country, to this country or other countries. So, the Hope help program really is a win-win. It is good for Haiti. It is good for America. It is good for the Western Hemisphere. I also want to mention my a gentleman that I I I I am just honored to call as a dear friend, a Catholic priest from Connecticut, Father Rick Fchett, who's been in Haiti for over 40 years. He's actually coming next week.
▶ 3:15:18Um he I talk with him fairly frequently about what's going on in the country. Um it is appalling as to what is happening there. They've had three of their hospital guards killed, multiple multiple other people uh vanquished, kidnapped, and again providing some stability for this country, helps decrease the ability of gangs to influence the daily life of Haitians. I want to thank the chairman for bringing this legislation before the committee. I think it is critical.
▶ 3:15:46I am glad for one that we're actually doing things on trade uh which here to for uh previous administration did nothing on trade and so I'm very very hopeful that we'll be able to pass this out unanimously in this committee. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I'll yield back.
▶ 3:16:01Thank you. I now recognize the ranking member from Massachusetts.
▶ 3:16:03So thank you. Let me recognize the gentle lady from the Virgin Islands, Miss Plask to consume my time. Thank you very much uh to the ranking member and thank you to the committee for bringing up this matter. For over 15 years, Haiti Hope help programs have supported both US and Haitian textile industries by granting Haiti duty-free access for apparel and textile products. Building strong business ties between two neighboring nations.
▶ 3:16:34This bill, the Haiti Economic Lift Program Extension Act, reauthorizes Hopehelp trade preference program for an additional three years through December of 2028. The bill also restores eligibility for certain textiles which were initially eligible for duty-free treatment but became ineligible due to changes in the harmonized tariff schedule. Now, I would of course like to thank Ranking Member Neil, Chairman Smith, uh, as well as Dr.
▶ 3:17:05Murphy, and I especially want to thank my longtime friend and fellow Hoya, Hades ambassador to the United States, Lionel Deleur, and for all of them for their leadership in keeping the light of Haiti hope alive in the House of Representatives. and of course the committee's trade staff led by Alexandra Whitaker, Mr.
▶ 3:17:27Ruida, um, Odonovan, and former US trade representative ambassador Katherine Thai who supported our work to reauthorize the program for many years. We know that FA Haiti faces overlapping humanitarian, political, and economic crisis and needs both economic and political stability. The circumstances in Haiti require immediate immediate action.
▶ 3:17:53We know that presently there is a 60% of the people of Haiti are living below poverty with in extreme poverty. There's a 37% youth unemployment occurring right now in Haiti. Lower female literacy and lower school enrollment as well as the crime that we all know about um the circumstances with the gangs make finding skilled work very very difficult.
▶ 3:18:22The apparel sector is of incredible importance to Hades economy and presently is the foundation for the country's economic development. And when we talk about economic development of Haiti, let's not forget Haiti's history and how it came about that they came into this economic straight that they are in.
▶ 3:18:44Many of us are aware and I want to bring to the committee's attention again that in 1825 for their freedom Haiti was exacted a Initially 150 million in gold was required by Haiti to pay to France. That was gone went down to 90 million in gold. That's 560 million in today's dollars.
▶ 3:19:12It took 122 years for Haiti to pay off that amount. Paying for freedom. What would have happened if the United States had to pay Britain for its freedom? It's estimated that between 21 billion and 115 billion in economic losses occurred because Haiti had to pay that amount to France for freedom.
▶ 3:19:38That is what has put Haiti into the ex uh dire economic strait that it is in today. And it is our support of Haiti as well as an economic benefit to the United States through its apparel that will help lift them. Given the cascading job losses and extreme security crisis, Haiti cannot afford to wait any longer for reauthorization of the vital program.
▶ 3:20:03Without reauthorization, certainly companies will increasingly shift production away from Haiti unless it's clear that hope help will continue. You know, Haiti is our strategic ally. It's one of the few countries in the hemisphere that still recognize Taiwan, and US support for the Hades apparel sector is mutually beneficial.
▶ 3:20:24Haitian apparel utilizes a great deal of American grown cotton, and when it is in place, plays an essential role in further shifting supply chains out of China and into the Western Hemisphere. It's my hope that this short-term extension of three years will preserve production and jobs in Haiti while providing a runway for Congress to further strengthen this program, assisting Haiti in diversifying its economy beyond textile production, which can often be a global race to the bottom
▶ 3:20:55on labor costs. Thank you to my colleagues for supporting Haiti and its people. Thank you for supporting the Caribbean Hemisphere. And thank you to the staff who labored to make this short-term compromise possible. I yield
▶ 3:21:08Thank you. The committee will now proceed to consideration.
▶ 3:21:11I would like
▶ 3:21:14Yeah. HR6504, the Haiti Economic Lift Program Extension Act. Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it. And without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point and considered base text for purpose of the amendment.
▶ 3:21:40I will now turn to Josh Sneed, chief trade counsel to provide a technical description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his
▶ 3:21:56Thank you, Chairman Smith. Um, acting ranking member Moore, HR6504 has four sections. Section one contains the short title, which is the Haiti Economic Lift Program Extension Act. Section two extends the hope trade programs through December 31st of 2028. These programs provide preferential tariff rates for certain textile and apparel products from Haiti.
▶ 3:22:18Section three makes a technical update to ensure that the scope of products eligible for hope is not inadvertently changed when updates are made to the harmonized tariff schedule of the United States. Finally, section 4 allows for retroactive refunds of tariffs on qualifying goods that entered the United States after the hope programs expired on September 30th, 2025 and before this bill is enacted into law. That concludes my technical walkthrough. I'm happy to answer any questions.
▶ 3:22:43Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment and the nature of a substitute? Seeing none, we will move to strike the last word. I recognize um Mr. Smith.
▶ 3:22:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. I certainly want to thank Mr. Murphy, Representative Dr. Murphy, for his leadership on this bill and all other members who have who have contributed as well. While the Haiti trade preference programs created by Congress through the Haitian Hemispheric Opportunity through partnership encouragement, her hope and Haiti economic lift program acts provide signific significant benefits to both the US and Haiti. These preferences deliver tangible results in Haiti while also supporting the US goals for diversification.
▶ 3:23:26The duty-free treatment for imports of textiles and apparel in Haiti leads to more affordable products for consumers while supporting incountry opportunities for Hades workforce. The apparel and textile industry supports thousands of jobs for the Haitian people, providing important economic stability throughout times of uncertainty and unrest. President Dwight D. Eisenhower said it best. World trade helps lay the groundwork for peace by making all free nations of the world stronger and more self-reliant.
▶ 3:23:56Though we are living in a different time now, this lesson still rings true. In this case, US trade partnership with Haiti has provided meaningful industry growth and made progress toward a more stable business environment. However, as with AGOA and other expired preference programs, Haiti help hope should not be the extent of our engagement with this trading partner. Congress and the Trump administration must work together to develop additional strategies to work with Haiti to create a more sustainable and self-reliant economy.
▶ 3:24:26Beyond the benefits to Haiti, the Haiti help and hope programs support American companies who seek to do business in Haiti, creating a supply chain for these products with our own as we work to diversify away from China. Onshore and nearshoring of critical industries cannot leave opportunities to strengthen supply chains with partners in our own hemisphere on the table. Bringing supply chains closer to home does not happen overnight, nor does it happen without a very comprehensive approach.
▶ 3:24:56Reauthorization of these trade preferences indicates Congress continued commitment to fostering security and prosperity in Haiti, supporting businesses who already are operating in Haiti or are looking to establish new supply chains. Reauthorizing through this bill is the right thing to do. It is on our interest. It is in our interest to support stability in Haiti. I certainly encourage my colleagues to join me in supporting this bill. I yield
▶ 3:25:25Miss Miss Moore is recognized to strike the last word. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I um I am so happy that we are uh moving to extend the hope program in Haiti.
▶ 3:25:40I'd like to associate myself with the comments of the gentle lady from the US Virgin Islands who pointed to the horrific history of Haiti where hundred where uh uh 200 years ago uh in their fight against colonialism, French uh uh colonialism, um Haiti had to pay France for their
▶ 3:26:10freedom. And I think that those disruptions continue to emerge on in our hemisphere. And so this whole program not only uh is vital for restimulating the economic well-being of Haiti, but it's it's also in our national interest. I mean, this is our hemisphere.
▶ 3:26:34We've bragged heartily how we're protected by two oceans, but if we continue to alienate our neighbors in the Caribbean uh and in our hemisphere, I don't think that that is a very wise program and a a strategy. Uh and the hope program is definitely a towhold into maintaining economic and national security.
▶ 3:27:02Um, if the gentle lady from the US Virgin Islands would like to take advantage of the balance of my time, I would be happy to yield to
▶ 3:27:13Thank you very much. Um, Miss Moore, I appreciate that time and um, I especially want to thank you for um, the circumstances under which Haiti has had to be engaged in supporting itself um, in a manner in which other places have not, specifically having to have given to France such a large portion of their economic profits over almost, you know, 125 years
▶ 3:27:44which has left it uh in a deficit to this day. And so I'm grateful for this mechanism that will continue to create partnerships between US companies uh US apparel and to have skilled workers in Haiti have additional employment.
▶ 3:28:01And of course, let's not forget one of the greatest champions of this, um, Charlie Wrangler, who was a chair of this committee and fought tirelessly on behalf of the people of Haiti, um, in pushing this first forward. I also recall um, Miss Su when I first came to Congress also being in very engaged in this. And you know, let's not be mistaken that this was not a priority of the Democratic caucus.
▶ 3:28:32This is something we have been working on and working not just to reauthorize but also to expand so that Haiti is not just engaged in textile and t-shirts and the apparel that they are but to try and expand the services as well as protecting the workers there in the same manner that American companies would have to protect its American workers.
▶ 3:28:57When America goes into other local and brings its businesses there, I think it's important that they bring American standards as well into the countries in which they are operating. And that's something that the Democratic Caucus has been fighting to ensure is happening for our brothers and sisters who are living in Haiti.
▶ 3:29:19And I call them our brothers and sisters because during our own American Revolution, it was Haitian troops that came uh to the United States and fought uh during the American Revolution fought on behalf of the colonies to support our fight against um colonialism in in with Great Britain.
▶ 3:29:42[clears throat] And so, thank you very much to Miss Moore for giving us this uh for your support of this legislation and the entire ways and means I hope will be supportive of this bill uh as we move it forward to the floor. I yield back.
▶ 3:30:00Miss Miller,
▶ 3:30:01I I yield back the bell to my
▶ 3:30:03Thank you. I recognize Miss Miller for five minutes.
▶ 3:30:06Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. Much like AGOA, a multi-year renewal of Hades hope help trade preference program supports American companies and consumers by ensuring a friendly and mutually beneficial supply sector, particularly for the apparel industry. This program is critical to support stability, job creation, and sustainable development.
▶ 3:30:33This in turn strengthens the communities in Haiti and curbs illegal migration. I am thrilled to see the reauthorization of Haiti hope before the committee today and I thank the good doctor Congressman Murphy and my colleagues for their leadership. I yield back my time.
▶ 3:30:52Mr. Davis is recognized to strike the last word.
▶ 3:30:57Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. And I also would like to commend Dr. Murphy and Representative Blask for the leadership that they've taken and have shown on this issue.
▶ 3:31:15I've been interested in Haiti since always trying to understand how the circumstances of their being could have come about in terms of a country that is still paying another country for its freedom.
▶ 3:31:36And of course, those of us who are aware of and of different heritage of this country have always looked up to Haiti as a resistant group who had to fight and pay for their liberation and for their freedom.
▶ 3:31:59So I commend us for this trade opportunity which will But Haiti is a big issue in the community where I live, where I work, and where many of the notfores and groups provide what support and what help that they can.
▶ 3:32:24But that does not take the place of trade opportunities, opportunities to create work and opportunities to make use of the skills that people can develop. And so I am strongly in support of this effort and urge that we go far beyond it. It's certainly good, but they really need much more.
▶ 3:32:54and in every way that we possibly can, we need to provide the help and support to Haiti. So, Dr. Murphy, Representative Clas, thank you both for your leadership and I yield
▶ 3:33:11Miss Su is recognized to strike the last
▶ 3:33:15Thank you, Chair Smith, uh, and Ranking Member Neil. I am in strong support of a three-year extension of the Haiti hope trade preference program, one of our most important tools for promoting economic stability, job creation, and long-term development in Haiti. For more than a decade, Help Hope has been a lifeline for Hades fragile economy.
▶ 3:33:41The program allows Haitian manufacturers to export certain goods to the United States duty-free, providing critical market access that has helped sustain over 50,000 jobs, many held by women. But hope is not just a development initiative. It is a mutually beneficial partnership. American companies rely on Haiti as a nearshore sourcing location that is close to the US market.
▶ 3:34:08It supports resilient supply chains and provides competitive competitively priced apparel that help cost make that help to make cost affordable for American consumers. This partnership strengthens both of our economies, creating opportunity abroad while bolstering economic activity right here at home. Today, however, Haiti faces extraordinary political unrest, economic strain, and humanitar humanitarian needs.
▶ 3:34:39And just as families are struggling to afford basic goods, this vital program uh has expired. Without these trade preferences, Haitian ex exporters will face sudden steep tariff increases. For many factories, these added costs are unsustainable. The result would be devastating. It would be job loss, factory closings, and further dis destabilization of a country already in crisis.
▶ 3:35:07We should be clear about what is at stake. Allowing hope, help to to lapse would not only undercut one of the most functioning economic pillars in Haiti, it would also push families deeper into hardship, increase migration pressures, and eliminate a key source of stability in our hemisphere. Congress must act now. Businesses that rely on this program, both in Haiti and the United States, need certainty.
▶ 3:35:36Workers need the reassurance that their jobs will not vanish overnight. And our close neighbor, just 700 miles from our shore, needs the continued support that Hopeel provides. This is a moment to reaffirm our commitment to a safer, more prosperous Caribbean region. expanding and extending. Hope help is a smart thing to do economically, the right thing to do morally and the necessary thing to do strategically.
▶ 3:36:02I want to thank our colleague Stacy Plac for her leadership in this matter as well as Dr. Murphy and support their efforts to provide a three-year extension for the hope trade preference program for Haiti. I yield back.
▶ 3:36:16Thank you. Are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a Oh, excuse me.
▶ 3:36:25My apologies. Mr. Gomez is recognized to strike the last word.
▶ 3:36:33Thank you, Mr. Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, it's interesting that we're having these these markups today. Um because one of the things I've seen from uh President Trump and the Republicans is really uh no interest in addressing the affordability crisis that we're facing in this country. And if we really look at and sometimes, let me step back, sometimes even denying that Trump's tariffs are causing higher prices.
▶ 3:37:04But having this hearing when it comes to AGOA, when it comes to Haiti, you're you're you're literally admitting that tariffs cause higher prices. Why? Because what's the the what's the point of a preference program? It's to boost economic activity, to increase exports, to promote trade, and lower consumer prices.
▶ 3:37:25So inherently, by doing this, you're saying, "Yeah, tariffs actually increase prices on consumers." But yet you're not willing to stand up to President's Trump's tariffs across the board. You're And that's what we're saying is a problem is that if we want to talk about affordability, we should talk about affordability. If we want to do something about lowering prices, we need to do that. But President Trump keeps flip-flopping back and forth.
▶ 3:37:51If affordability and prices are actually a real thing, you know, he was said he was going to lower prices on day one, but he did not do that. He failed. And then President Trump called affordability a Democratic conjob. How many of you believe affordability is a conj job? Yeah, I don't think so. Um, and just yesterday, just yesterday when he was on his affordability tour, he literally mocked what a affordability. He he mocked affordability.
▶ 3:38:22Like that's what we're dealing with is a president that honestly doesn't get it, doesn't care, or he just doesn't have a means of addressing this problem. And since President Trump has been in office, things have gotten worse. His high tariffs are starting have been driving up the cost of living. Higher prices for baby products, higher prices for clothing, higher prices for electronics, higher prices for groceries.
▶ 3:38:49food has increased over uh prices since 2024. You know, Christmas trees, we have fake Christmas trees in the ways of means room. Those prices are up. I mean, here here's the thing. Do we want to do something to help the American people? Yes. At least Democrats do. But we have to start addressing the issue.
▶ 3:39:15You have to push back on a president who doesn't care if his tariffs hurt working people across the country in blue states and red states and urban areas and rural areas. We got to do something about it. But the Republican majority, what did you prioritize?
▶ 3:39:32his one big billionaire bill or one big beautiful bill as you call it that was taking away a trillion dollars from Medicaid to give tax breaks to the largest corporations and the richest individuals in this country at expense of the working class. That's what you guys prioritized. You didn't prioritize working people and then you let the ACA subsidies for the enhanced premium tax credit expire.
▶ 3:40:03And those disproportionately rep uh hurt Republican states. And why is that? It's because your Republican states didn't expand Medicaid. And because they didn't expand Medicaid, a lot of those people that needed coverage went to the exchanges. So, let's talk about affordability. Let's do something about affordability. But you need to stand up against this president.
▶ 3:40:27You need to go back to the your old values of quote unquote uh free trade, um lowering the cost of living, not just for billionaires and the and the richest folks in this country, but for working people. This is what we're talking about. So, I'm glad we're doing this on AGOA and and Haiti, but it's not enough. AGOA represents I don't know 1% of all imported goods.
▶ 3:40:54I was writing it down earlier because I was actually stunned about how little. Yes, we're going to have an impact on helping those countries and we should, but then it's going to be undone by Donald Trump just imposing tariffs without the consent of Congress. That's what we're talking about. So, I want the Republicans here to join with Democrats, address affordability, address the high cost of living because people are getting crushed. With that, I yield back.
▶ 3:41:22Gentleman yields back. Others wishing to strike the last word. Seeing none, are any are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute? Miss Chu.
▶ 3:41:35Mr. Chair, I have an amendment at the
▶ 3:41:38Mr. Chairman, I reserve a point of
▶ 3:41:44Point of order has been reserved. The clerk will distribute the amendment. I ask the gentle lady to suspend while the clerk distributes.
▶ 3:42:30gentle [clears throat] lady from California is recognized for 5 minutes to speak on her amendment. Though I strongly wish for this bill to include trade adjustment assistance, I support this bill, the Haiti Economic Lift Program Extension Act. Extending these trade preferences is an important step towards supporting economic stability, job creation, and opportunity for the Haitian people while also helping US businesses that rely on these supply chains.
▶ 3:43:00However, even as we move this bill forward, President Trump's across the board 10% reciprocal tariff remains in place. These tariffs do nothing to promote stability or economic growth. Instead, they raise costs for American consumers, squeeze small businesses, and make it harder for fragile economies like Hades to recover. My amendment addresses this directly.
▶ 3:43:29It provides that executive order 14257 and any successor or substantially similar order shall no longer apply to Haiti and that no duties may be collected under This amendment complements the underlying bill by ensuring that the trade preferences Congress is extending actually functions as intended, lowering costs, supporting jobs, and promoting stability rather than being undercut by
▶ 3:43:59unilateral tariffs. I urge adoption of this amendment and I yield back.
▶ 3:44:05Gentle lady yields back. I now recognize Dr. Murphy for five minutes.
▶ 3:44:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate the uh amendment. However, I think it's I think we need to understand in the big picture here, it's wonderful that we're actually doing something on trade. Uh we had didn't do anything last administration in any regard. We've done on truly truly steroids to help work and try to reduce an unbound a horrible uh trade deficit in this country. I think Haiti is welcoming the uh renewal of hope and um I think we just need to stick with what we're doing in front of the committee.
▶ 3:44:39Obviously a hugely bipartisan bill. So I would oppose the amendment. Thank you.
▶ 3:44:45Thank you. Any others wishing to speak on the on the amendment?
▶ 3:44:51Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Miss Chu. All those in favor signify by saying
▶ 3:44:58Those no.
▶ 3:45:00In the opinion of the chair, the nos have it.
▶ 3:45:04The clerk will call the role.
▶ 3:45:05Record a vote. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 3:45:10Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Buchanan. No. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. No. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. No. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Le Hood. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. No.
▶ 3:45:40Mr. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn. No. Mrs. Miller. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Kristoff. Mr. Kristoff. No. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie.
▶ 3:46:08Miss Tenny, Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mr. Miss. Van Dyene. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. No. Miss. Malotakus. Miss. Malotakus. No. Mr. Carrie. Mr. Carrie. No. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 3:46:39Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 3:46:50Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran. Mr. Moran. No. Mr. Neil. Mr. Neil. Yes, Mr. Dogget, Mr. Dogget. Yes, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes, Mr. Larson.
▶ 3:47:15Mr. Larson. Yes, Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes, Miss Sanchez. Miss Su, Miss Delben, Miss Delben. Yes. Miss Chu, Miss Chu, yes. Miss Moore,
▶ 3:47:41Miss Moore, yes. Mr. Bole. Mr. Byer.
▶ 3:47:51Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 3:47:55Mr. Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider. Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta. Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez. Hi.
▶ 3:48:07Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horford. Mr. Horford. Yes. Miss Plask. Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swasy.
▶ 3:48:21Mr. Swazy. Yes. Mr. Schwikert. Mr. Schwikert. No. Mr. Leood. Mr. Le Hood. No. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Smucker. Mrs. Miller.
▶ 3:48:54Mrs. Miller. No. Mr. Stwie. Miss Tenny. Miss. Tenny. No. Mr. Moore.
▶ 3:49:08Mr. Moore. No. Miss. Vanine. Miss. Van. No. Mr. Miller. Miss. Sanchez. Miss Su Mr. Bole
▶ 3:49:31Mr. Bole Yes.
▶ 3:49:38Miss Su is not recorded.
▶ 3:49:41Miss Su. Chairman Smith.
▶ 3:49:53Chairman Smith. No.
▶ 3:49:58How was Dr. Murphy recorded?
▶ 3:50:04Dr. Dr. Murphy is recorded. No.
▶ 3:50:37The clerk will report.
▶ 3:50:39Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 18, the nos are 22.
▶ 3:50:45The amendment is not agreed to. Are there additional amendments?
▶ 3:50:51Miss Plask.
▶ 3:50:52Uh, Mr. Chair, I have an amendment at the desk.
▶ 3:50:55Mr. Chairman, I res reserve a point of The clerk will distribute the amendment. A point of order has been reserved. The gentle lady uh will suspend while the clerk [clears throat] distributes.
▶ 3:51:44Miss Plasket is recognized for 5
▶ 3:51:47Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. On February 22nd, 2022, pursuant to section 332G of tariff act of 1930, Chairman Neil sent a letter to the US International Trade Commission requesting that USITC conduct an investigation and provide a report on Hades history of international trade since 1980 with special attention paid to Sabira generalized system of preference uh Caribbean
▶ 3:52:17Basin Trade Partners Act. and hope health preference programs and the impact on Hades economy and workers. Reported to Congress on December 23rd, 2022, the investigation found that the US preference programs had played an important role in the trade relationship between the United States and Haiti and the development of Haiti's apparel sector.
▶ 3:52:40It found that Haiti experienced a surge in foreign directed investment following the implementation of HOPE 1 in 2026, HOPE 2 in 2008, and the Haiti Economic Lift Program Act help in 2010.
▶ 3:52:57Hades FDI stock grew rapidly during this time about 17% per year from 300 million in 200 2006 to 1.7 um4 billion in 2017. The US ITC also found that US imports from Haiti generally increased after the implementation of each US preference program from 1980 to 2021.
▶ 3:53:23US apparel imports from Haiti quadrupled after the Caribbean Bas and Trade Partnership Act and Hope One, Hope 2 help programs went into effect, increasing from 231 million in 2001 to 994 million in 2021 with t-shirts accounting for a large proportion of the increase.
▶ 3:53:45In 2021, 23% of total imports enter the United States under CBTPA program and 67% under the Hope one, Hope 2 help programs. Adding the two programs together, more than 90% of Haiti's export economy involves textile production to use as customers in the United States. Haiti is our neighbor. Hades an ally.
▶ 3:54:15And if it's to move towards a brighter and more prosperous future, Haiti needs to be supported such that Haitians are able to do more than produce textiles. We owe some debt to this nation. Uh, and it would be in our interests to expand the amount of industry that the United States is engaged with in Haiti. If not us, China will.
▶ 3:54:44As I talked to other leaders of Kerrycom nations, they are engaging more and more in the business sector with China. My amendment follows directly the footsteps of this committee's request from 2022, but goes far beyond in scope.
▶ 3:55:03The amendment that I'm offering simply directs the Department of Commerce, the Office of US Trade Representative, the United States International Trade Commissions, and other applicable agencies to study trade preference structures, economic support, technical assistance, which would facilitate diversification of Hades economy beyond textile productions. We've seen how important the textile industry is.
▶ 3:55:31How much more would it be if we as a committee had the necessary study and information to in the next round be able to expand that? It's imperative that we support Haiti, not only in providing the support in these industries, but for us to be uh knowledgeable on what other areas of American businesses would be best suited to support domestic security and a path to economic possibilities in
▶ 3:56:01Haiti. I'm asking my colleagues to support this amendment, which is not an is not asking for more, simply requesting a study to determine which other industries we as American businesses might benefit in providing more net security in Haiti, more engagement and partnership, and as well more support and export monies coming into the United States.
▶ 3:56:31Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
▶ 3:56:34Thank you. Dr. Murphy is recognized to speak on the amendment.
▶ 3:56:37Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm intrigued by the idea. Um, at first glance, I I would I uh think it is an interesting concept and I would commit to working with my colleague on this issue because I do think this is an important issue. I would just say this particular bill is just not the vehicle for this right at this point in time. And so, uh, I will absolutely 100% commit to us working on this moving in the future, but I'm just going to oppose it otherwise. Thank you.
▶ 3:57:04Mr. Murphy, if I may ask you.
▶ 3:57:06Um, you state that the bill, which speaks directly to uh increasing and uh working on hope programs would not be an appropriate vehicle to do this. How would you best see this?
▶ 3:57:21So, here here's the problem. when we're handed amendments right here at the last minute without seeing them beforehand. I would love to sit down and discuss this. That's just the issue. I mean that this is the only problem. I wish we could see these beforehand. Sit down, discuss, and actually say, "Hey, maybe this is good." So, let's just do that after this and maybe we can pull something off that really would be mutually beneficial.
▶ 3:57:42Thank you.
▶ 3:57:44Others wishing to speak on the
▶ 3:57:48Seeing none, clerk call the role.
▶ 3:57:51Mr. Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Buchanan. No. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. No. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. No. Mr. Schwikert. Mr. Schwikert. No. Mr. Le Mr. Arrington. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. No. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn.
▶ 3:58:21No, Mrs. Mrs. Mrs. Dr. Murphy.
▶ 3:58:29Dr. Murphy. No, Mr. Kristoff. Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Stwie. Miss. Tenny. Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mr. for more.
▶ 3:59:00Mr. Moore, Mr. Moore, no. Miss Vanine,
▶ 3:59:09Miss Vanine, no. Mr. Fenstra, Mr. Fenstra, no. Miss Maliaakis. Miss Maliaakis. No. Mr. Carrie. No.
▶ 3:59:23Mr. Kerry. No. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 3:59:26Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 3:59:34Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran.
▶ 3:59:38Mr. Moran. No. Mr. Neil.
▶ 3:59:43Mr. Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson.
▶ 3:59:50Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 3:59:54Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis.
▶ 3:59:57Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Delen.
▶ 4:00:08Miss Delben. Yes. Miss Chu.
▶ 4:00:12Miss Chu. Yes, Miss Moore.
▶ 4:00:16Miss Moore. Yes, Mr. Boille.
▶ 4:00:19Mr. Boille. Yes, Mr. Byer.
▶ 4:00:22Mr. Mr. Byer. Yes,
▶ 4:00:25Mr. Evans.
▶ 4:00:27Mr. Evans. Yes, Mr. Schneider.
▶ 4:00:30Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta. Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 4:00:36Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horford. Mr. Horford. Yes. Miss Plask. Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 4:00:47Mr. Suazi. Yes.
▶ 4:00:51Mr. Le Hood.
▶ 4:00:53Mr. Le Hood. No. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Smucker. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. No. Mr. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie. Miss Tenny. Miss Tenny.
▶ 4:01:24No. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez.
▶ 4:01:32Miss Su.
▶ 4:01:34Miss S.
▶ 4:01:39Chairman Smith. Chairman Smith. No.
▶ 4:02:09Clerk report. Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 18 and the nos are 22.
▶ 4:02:16The amendment fails. Are there other amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute? Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendments. Without further amendments, the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute. All those in favor signify signify by saying yes.
▶ 4:02:46Those opposed, no. In the opinion of the chair, the yeses have it. And the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a
▶ 4:02:58Mr. Chairman, I move the committee favorably report HR6504 as amended the House of Representatives. Question is on the motion to favorably report HR6504 as amended to the House of Representatives. Clerk, call the role.
▶ 4:03:13Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 4:03:15Mr. Buchanan, yes. Mr. Smith of
▶ 4:03:19Mr. Smith of Nebraska, yes. Mr. Kelly,
▶ 4:03:23Mr. Kelly, yes. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Schwiker. Yes. Mr. Le Hood. Mr. Le Hood. Yes. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn. Yes. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. Yes. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. Yes. Mr. Kristoff. Mr. Kristoff. Yes. Mr.
▶ 4:03:53Fitzpatrick. Mr. Fitzp. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Yes. Mr. Stwie. Miss Tenny. Miss Tenny. Yes. Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore.
▶ 4:04:12Mr. Moore. Yes. Miss Vanine.
▶ 4:04:15Miss Vanine. Yes. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. Yes. Miss. Malotakus. Miss. Maliotakis. Yes. Mr. Kerry.
▶ 4:04:24Mr. Kerry. Yes. Mr. Yakam. Mr. Yakam. Yes. Mr. Miller. Mr. Mr. Bean.
▶ 4:04:33Mr. Bean. Yes. Mr. Moran.
▶ 4:04:37Mr. Moran. Yes.
▶ 4:04:41Mr. Neil.
▶ 4:04:43Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget.
▶ 4:04:47Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 4:04:52Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis.
▶ 4:04:57Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su Miss Su Yes. Miss Delben. Miss Delben. Yes. Miss Chu.
▶ 4:05:12Miss Chu. Yes. Miss Moore. Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Bole.
▶ 4:05:18Mr. Bole. Yes. Mr. Byer.
▶ 4:05:21Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 4:05:23Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider.
▶ 4:05:26Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta.
▶ 4:05:28Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 4:05:31Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horsford.
▶ 4:05:34Mr. Horsford. Yes. Miss Plask. Miss Plasket. Yes. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 4:05:40Mr. Swazy. Yes. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 4:05:46Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Stwie. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez. Chairman Smith.
▶ 4:06:09Chairman Smith. Yes. The clerk will report
▶ 4:06:39the vote.
▶ 4:06:40Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 41 and the nos are zero.
▶ 4:06:44There being 41 yeses and zero nos, the motion is agreed to and HR6504 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views.
▶ 4:07:08Our next order of business is HR 4930, legislation to expand the sharing of information with respect to suspected violations of intellectual property rights in products being imported into the United States. The United States has long been the leader in the development of innovative intellectual property because as a nation we have wellestablished protections for those developing IP.
▶ 4:07:38Like all property rights, IP protections ensure entrepreneurs can and will invest in developing the next innovation because they have strong and enforcable legal protections against theft.
▶ 4:07:52Under current law, US Customs and Border Protection, which enforces our laws regarding the import of products into the United States, is very limited in its ability to share relevant, actionable intelligence with businesses and other stakeholders who have a legitimate and vested interest in stopping the importation of goods that violate their intellectual property rights.
▶ 4:08:18This legislation will increase the ability of CBP to share information on goods that may violate intellectual property rights. It makes common sense updates that CBP has requested for several years during both the Biden and Trump administrations. Better coordination with the private sector means better enforcement.
▶ 4:08:40The sponsor of this legislation, Representative Moore, has been a strong champion of American innovation given that his home state of Utah is an epicenter for the development of cutting edge technology and entrepreneurship. That's why they call them the oh silicone scope slopes. I did not know that. [laughter] Okay.
▶ 4:09:03Well, I appreciate his leadership on this issue as well as Representative Schneider's co-sponsorship of this bill. As a committee looks to reform our trade policies to protect the rights of American businesses and strengthen American leadership, I'm pleased to recognize the sponsor of this bill, the gentleman from Utah, Mr. Moore, for his opening statement.
▶ 4:09:23Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Silicon Slopes, uh, is the next coolest thing, um, and taking over the world, as we would say. Um, thank you again for including HR 40 4930, which I'm calling the Counterfeit Notification Act in today's markup.
▶ 4:09:40I introduced this bill with my colleague Brad Schneider from Illinois to target the influx of counterfeit goods entering the United States and allow our Customs and Border Patrol officers to share real-time information with businesses, e-commerce platforms, and logistics companies. So to put things in perspective, in fiscal year 2023, CBP sees more than $2.7 billion worth of counterfeit goods at the US border.
▶ 4:10:02These illicit materials pose serious national security and health to American citizens due to their poor quality, clear safety hazards, as well as the potential that they were produced under conditions of slavery or forced labor. Under current law, when CBP suspects a particular shipment might be counterfeit, they are only allowed to publicize very limited information about shipments in question.
▶ 4:10:23They are not allowed to share for example labels, invoices or packing slips that identify the products country of origin with the business community, e-commerce platforms like Etsy and Amazon or logistics carer uh carriers like DHL, UPS and FedEx that cannot share it with those entities. My bill gives CBP explicit authority to share this relevant information with companies, carriers, and platforms when they receive a questionable shipment.
▶ 4:10:48This means the CBP will now be able to recognize and flag patterns of behavior like repeat senders of mass shipments, drop addresses used by organiz organized counterfeits, and common entry ports or air routes for suspected counterfeit goods. This is common sense bill will strengthen US national security, kneecap bad actors, and protect the IP of American companies. I look forward to seeing its swift passage through committee today, and I urge a yes vote. Thank you, chairman. I yield back.
▶ 4:11:16Thank you. Thank you. I now recognize a ranking member um Miss Moore for her opening statement.
▶ 4:11:26Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I am so delighted to yield my time to Mr. Schneider, the uh co-sponsor of this
▶ 4:11:36Uh thank you, uh ranking member, and I want to thank the chairman. In particular, I want to extend my gratitude and appreciation for my friend and colleague, Congressman Blake Moore, for working closely on this bill, uh, Uh, as he noted, this bill takes important steps because counterfeit products can be extremely dangerous to consumers and presents serious safety and public health concerns.
▶ 4:12:00HR 4930, the Counterfeit Notification Act, gives the US Customs agents the tools that they need to better identify counterfeit and pirated products and prevent them from getting in the hands of American consumers. Our bill gives Customs and Border Protection authority to share all relevant information with companies, carriers, and shipping platforms when agents believe counterfeited or pirated products are coming into the c country.
▶ 4:12:26These include working directly with the intellectual property owners and with parties involved in the supply chain to better intercept counterfeit goods. I'm proud that our bill is supported by a number of organizations including the International Anti-Counterfeittering Coalition, the Alliance of Automotive Innovation, the Alliance for Safe the American Apparel and Footwear Association, the Baby Safety Alliance, the Transnational Alliance to Combat Elicit Trade, and many more. Mr.
▶ 4:12:55Chairman, I request that this letter of support be rec be included in the This is a common sense technical bill that helps customs agents identify counterfeit goods and keep Americans safe. I urge my colleagues to vote yes on this bill and I yield back.
▶ 4:13:11Thank you. The committee will now proceed to the consideration of HR 4930, a bill to expand the sharing of information with respect to suspected violations of intellectual property rights and trade. Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute, which was distributed in advance along with the green sheets explaining it.
▶ 4:13:34Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point, and considered base text for the purpose of amendment. I will now turn to Josh Sneed, chief trade counsel, to provide a technical description of the amendment and the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his presentation.
▶ 4:13:57Thank you, Chairman Smith. And once again, acting ranking member Moore, um HR 4930 has one section. This bill authorizes Customs and Border Protection or CBP to share with private sector stakeholders certain information about imported merchandise when CBP has a reasonable suspicion that the merchandise violates US intellectual property laws, specifically those that protect trademarks and copyrights. HR4930 expands CBP's current authority to share such information in two ways. First, it expands the type of information CBP may share.
▶ 4:14:27Among other additions, this bill would allow CBP to share information, share non-public information about the merchandise that was generated by an online marketplace uh with freight forwarders or other entities that play a role in the sale or importation of the merchandise. And second, this bill expands the scope of whom CBP is authorized to share such information with. Current law allows CBP to share such information only with the owner of the trademark or copyright at issue.
▶ 4:14:52This bill would expand that authority to also include other parties with an interest in the merchandise, allowing broader public private partnerships to enforce American intellectual property laws. CBP has requested these changes for several years during both the Biden and Trump administrations and has indicated that under current law, it has concerns that the Trade Secrets Act may prevent it from sharing information that otherwise would be very helpful to enforcing intellectual property laws. That concludes my technical walkthrough.
▶ 4:15:18Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment in the nature of a substitute? Mr. Schneider.
▶ 4:15:24Uh thank you uh Mr. Chairman. And before I um ask my question, I just want to confirm uh this letter from a a dozen organizations supporting this bill can be included in the record
▶ 4:15:34without objection.
▶ 4:15:35Thank you. Uh so Mr. interest in in the uh a on page two line 15 the bill appears to require CBP to provide notification to the person that it has transmitted information to the person that's u strikes me as a little bit redundant uh at least and and certainly it is confusing just to confirm the intent of the legislation is to provide notice to the rights holders beyond just the the owner
▶ 4:16:05those parties are listed in subsection section B1-4 uh that CPB is sharing or seeking information from the third parties included in subsection 5 specifically any other parties at at page 3 line one.
▶ 4:16:20That's correct. That is the intent when that information um is shared with non-rights holders to to notify the rights holder that that information had been shared.
▶ 4:16:27Great. Thank you. Under the amendment the nature of a substitute, the commissioner has been given the authority to draft regulations that would guide the notification provision. I'd like the record to reflect that the intent of this bill is that CBP should provide notice to rights holders. That is, it is sharing information with third parties and that the regulations should be drafted to reflect that intent. Thank you, and I yield back.
▶ 4:16:51Are there additional technical
▶ 4:16:54Seeing none, we'll move to strike the last word. Does any member wish to strike the last word? Seeing none, we will move to amendments. Does any member have have an amendment in the nature of a substitute?
▶ 4:17:13Seeing none. Um with no amendments, a question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute. All those in favor signify by saying I.
▶ 4:17:23Those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a
▶ 4:17:33Mr. Mr. Chairman, I move the committee favorably report HR 4930 as amended to the House of Representatives.
▶ 4:17:40The question is on the motion to favorably report HR 4930 as amended to the House of Representatives. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 4:17:48Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 4:17:50Mr. Buchanan, yes. Mr. Smith of
▶ 4:17:54Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Yes. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. Yes. Mr. Schwikert. Mr. Schwikert. Yes. Mr. Le Hood. Mr. Mr. Leood. Yes. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Estus. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn. Yes. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. Yes.
▶ 4:18:24Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy, yes. Mr. Kustoff, yes.
▶ 4:18:38Mr. Kustoff, yes. Mr. Fitzpatrick, Mr. Fitzpatrick, yes. Mr. Stwie,
▶ 4:18:45Mr. Stwie, yes. Miss Tenny,
▶ 4:18:49Miss Tenny, yes. Mrs. Fishbach,
▶ 4:18:51Mrs. Fishbach, yes. Mr. Moore,
▶ 4:18:54Mr. Moore, yes. Miss Vanine. Miss Vanine. Yes. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. Yes. Miss Malotakus. M. Miss Malotakus. Yes. Mr. Kerry.
▶ 4:19:06Mr. Kerry. Yes. Mr. Yakam. Mr. Yakam. Yes. Mr. Miller. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 4:19:16Mr. Bean. Yes. Mr. Moran.
▶ 4:19:19Mr. Moran. Yes.
▶ 4:19:22Mr. Neil.
▶ 4:19:24Mr. Neil. Yes, Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. Yes, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes, Mr. Larson. Mr. Larson. Yes, Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes, Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes. Miss Delen. Miss Albennet. Yes. Miss Chu. Miss Chu. Yes. Miss Moore. Hi.
▶ 4:19:54Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Boille.
▶ 4:19:58Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer. Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans. Mr. Schneider.
▶ 4:20:07Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta. Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 4:20:13Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horseford.
▶ 4:20:18Miss Plask.
▶ 4:20:19Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 4:20:24Mr. Mr. Swazy. Yes,
▶ 4:20:29Mr. Estus.
▶ 4:20:31Mr. Estus. Yes, Mr. Smucker. Mr. Miller, Miss Sanchez, Mr. Evans, Mr. Horford, Chairman Smith.
▶ 4:20:58Chairman Smith. Yes. The clerk will report the vote.
▶ 4:21:24Mr. Chairman, the the yeses are 40, the nos are zero.
▶ 4:21:29There being 40 yeses and zero nos, the motion is agreed to and HR 4930 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to HR 4930 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views. Our next order of business is HR 227, the clergy act.
▶ 4:21:56Social Security is the foundation of a secure retirement for the 70 million Americans who receive a benefit check each month and a promise to the more than 180 million Americans who contribute to the system with each paycheck. Each year, around 2,000 clergy members choose to opt out of contributing to and receiving Social Security benefits based on their ministerial services.
▶ 4:22:23Under current law, once they leave the system, they cannot rejoin. This bill before us creates a one-time window for clergy who wish to rejoin the system to opt back into participating in it. Clergy members faithfully offer hope, wisdom, and guidance to their congregations week after week. Many Americans have stories of a clergy member walking with them through a tough period in their life.
▶ 4:22:50My own father was a pastor in my hometown and I watched him give his time and his counsel to the members of our church. I want to thank representatives Fong and Thompson for introducing this legislation at the request of the people that they represent in California. Our faith leaders deserve to retire with dignity after years of serving their congregations and communities. I urge my colleagues to support this legislation. I now recognize the ranking member from Massachusetts, Mr.
▶ 4:23:21uh the ranking member. Are you the ranking ranking member Mr. Dog?
▶ 4:23:24Just just for a moment.
▶ 4:23:26All right. I
▶ 4:23:27I don't want to scare you.
▶ 4:23:28Recognize [laughter]
▶ 4:23:30you did. Yeah.
▶ 4:23:31So, represent the ranking member, Mr.
▶ 4:23:34I'll yield to Mr. Thompson, the sponsor of the bill. Thank the gentleman for yielding. Uh Mr. Chairman, uh, first I'd like to thank my Republican colleague, Representative Fong, for his partnership on this issue. Uh, this is how the legislative process should work. Democrats and Republicans coming together to solve real problems for the people we serve. For nine decades, Social Security has done exactly what it has promised.
▶ 4:24:03Protecting workers, retirees, people with disabilities, and saving families from poverty. And because it's so successful, our job here should be to make it easier, not harder, for Americans to participate and benefit from Social Security. Under current law, clergy can opt out of paying Social Security taxes if they choose not to receive the benefits when they retire.
▶ 4:24:29Our clergy members are pillars of every community, providing spiritual and emotional guidance in times of joy and times of hardship. My clergy act would provide members of the clergy a two-year window to opt back in, pay their social security taxes, and secure these earned benefits.
▶ 4:24:52But if we're going to make social security work better for the American people, we must double down on protecting it from those who wish to tear it down. We can't talk about strengthening this program on one hand while ignoring ongoing efforts on the other side to weaken it or to privatize it. Repeatedly, we've heard proposals from our Republican colleagues who have called for reforms or quote unquote tough choices. Let's be honest about what that means.
▶ 4:25:22Cuts to benefits, delayed retirement, a move to privatization, and undermining guaranteed benefits that generations have come to count on. Democrats reject that proposal. We believe social security is a promise, not a bargaining chip. On this community, in this committee, we have a choice.
▶ 4:25:44We can work together to ensure social security remains strong for generations to come or we can go down the road of cuts and uncertainty that jeopardizes the retirement security of millions of America. I believe we should make sure social security stands strong for future generations. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back.
▶ 4:26:09Thank you. The committee will now proceed to consideration of HR227, the clergy act. Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute, which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point, and considered base text for the purpose of amendment. Before I recognize Mr.
▶ 4:26:35Ritter, I want to inform members that votes have been called on the House floor and I intend to call a recess following Mr. Ritter's remarks and to call the committee back to order immediately following the vote series. Um, I will now turn it over to Mr. Ben Ritter, tax and social security policy adviser, to provide a technical description of the amendment and the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his presentation.
▶ 4:27:08Chairman Smith, Rank Member Neil, and members of the committee. As introduced by representatives Fong of California and Thompson of California, HR227 allows for the permanent revocation of an exemption from payment of self-employment contributions contributions act or Sika taxes on income associated with ministerial services performed by certain church ministers, members of a religious order, and Christian Science practitioners who for the purposes
▶ 4:27:38of this walkthrough and subsequent technical questions will hear and after collectively be referred to as clergy. Under current law, a member of the clergy can apply for and receive an exemption from paying Sika taxes on income associated with his or her performance of ministerial services. These Sika exemptions must generally be granted early in the clergy member's ministry and are permanent once granted.
▶ 4:28:00Consequently, these members of the clergy do not contribute to or receive benefits from the Social Security, retirement, or disability programs based on their ministerial work histories. HR227 would provide members of the clergy who have been granted a see tax exemption for their ministerial earnings with a time limited window to apply for a permanent revocation of that exemption.
▶ 4:28:23This window would conclude on the due date of the federal income tax return of the applicant's second taxable year after December 31st, 2027. HR227 also requires the Commissioner of Internal Revenue in consultation with the Commissioner of Social Security to provide the House Committee on Ways and Means and the Senate Committee on Finance with a plan to inform members of the clergy of their eligibility to revoke their seek exemptions within 90 days of enactment.
▶ 4:28:50As described in the green sheet distributed yesterday, the chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute modifies the start date at which a member of the clergy may file an application for a revocation of their exemption from taxable years beginning after December 31st, 2027 to taxable years beginning after December 31st, 2020 2028. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Neil, and members of the committee. This concludes my walkthrough and I welcome any questions related to the technical nature of the amendment and the nature of a substitute.
▶ 4:29:20Thank you. As announced, the committee will stand at recess until immediately following the vote series.
▶ 6:12:57order. Um, we're uh on the on technical questions. Are there any technical Mr. Larson?
▶ 6:13:08Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and uh I want to thank the authors of the bill. Um Mr. Thompson, Mr. Fong, it's a common sense, straightforward bill. Um but Mr.
▶ 6:13:21Chairman, as you heard me say in my uh opening remarks, uh well, first and foremost, I should add that I'm uh uh grateful to the Sisters of Notream, and they're smiling down that we're passing this legislation, but uh uh there's so much more that needs to be done during this time of crisis. And when I say time of time of crisis, I think they're pretty straight and fundamental things.
▶ 6:13:49And I I want to guess that most of you on the other side agree. But I have some technical questions starting with uh since social security has been uh invaded by Doge. Who's Doge?
▶ 6:14:08Sir, the the bill the amendment in the nature of a substitute would provide members of the clergy with a two-year window with which to revoke their seek a tax exemption. um happy to answer technical questions related to the amendment and the nature of a
▶ 6:14:21Well, my technical question is I guess the people that are overseeing the social security administration uh and have taken its records. Uh we had a uh a a person who has come forward and said that uh these records have been stolen. and they've been stolen by Doge and uh I don't think anyone knows who Doge is.
▶ 6:14:53So my technical question is is Doge in Social Security. Sir, again, happy to answer technical questions related to the amendment in the nature of a substitute. Um that amendment would simply provide a two-year window for members of the clergy to revoke their seek a tax exemption. So what's not technical about uh does doge work there?
▶ 6:15:18I'm here to talk about the amendment in the neighbor nature of substitute which would provide a two-year exemption from members of the clergy to revoke their see a tax exemption. Well, in in order to uh have this amendment, in order to revoke that, you know, you have to have a social security administration and they have to be functioning and there's quite a bit of discussion about the fact that
▶ 6:15:49they aren't. And I remember the president saying there was all kinds of fraud, abuse, and waste, etc. Uh, is any of that attributed to the clergy?
▶ 6:16:01I I haven't heard mention of the clergy when reference in the context of of what you're
▶ 6:16:08Mr. I understand this is not fair for you, but it is poignant uh in terms of uh what we have before us. What we have is a major crisis. The crisis before us is that social security is insolvent and everybody on this dis knows it and knows that there's action that has to take place and while there's nothing wrong with these bills that
▶ 6:16:39are being proposed. They're harmless in terms of what they're doing. Except they're not harmful if you happen to be sitting aside a kitchen table and wondering how you're going to make ends meet and knowing that in more than 50 years, Social Security hasn't been enhanced across the board.
▶ 6:16:59And people in every one of our districts, every one of our districts have not seen an enhancement and in a post pandemic current global inflationary time. Is there ever been a time more critical for people to get paid appropriately?
▶ 6:17:24Thank God that we're stepping in here, no pun intended, uh on behalf of the but how about the 73 million Americans who are currently see receiving benefits and the 300 million that participate in Social I recognize that these aren't specifically technical questions, but when
▶ 6:17:55technically it's determined by Doge and no one can even explain who Doge is, why they're there, who hired them, what kind of accountability or vetting they had is pretty mystifying.
▶ 6:18:10I yield back. Are there additional technical questions about the amendment in the nature of a substitute? Seeing none, we'll move to strike the last word. Are any members wish to strike the last word? Mr. Larson.
▶ 6:18:27Again, thank you, M.
▶ 6:18:29Again, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, uh let me commend Mr. Thompson and Mr. Tong. And uh again, I think that this bill is u uh appropriate, but uh to say that I'm disappointed uh would be an understatement and especially for people in the audience and people who may be watching Span as well.
▶ 6:18:55If you don't understand what's happening right now at Social Security, you've missed it because we've called for hearings here on this committee of cognizance, but have yet to have them. In fact, we even tried to under our rules under rule 13, clause 7 of the House of to have an inquiry where we actually had Mr. Elon Musk come before us and tell us what exactly they're doing.
▶ 6:19:24But no one on this committee. If you can, I'd love to hear someone tell me who's working at Doge and who allowed them the permission to look at all of your records and every one of your constituents records. Every one of your constituents and then they've taken them, stolen them, and put them in a cloud that's insecure. an insecure cloud that anyone can have access to.
▶ 6:19:54The American people don't understand this and why we're not having them before our committee. If if we're well, for God's sake, then let's straighten it out. Let's find out what they actually did there. Can anyone even name a person at Doge who was unvetted, unaccountable, and talked about all the fraud, abuse, and waste? Well, where is it?
▶ 6:20:21Where is all that fraud, abuse, and waste that they were finding over at Social that led to the layoff of more than 7,000 people at Social Security? That led to closing of regional branches to the nation's number one anti-poverty program for the elderly and for children.
▶ 6:20:43It is a shame that this Congress and this committee will not address issues that impact every single one of our constituents. How much longer before we even have a We wanted to get Elon Musk. Apparently, he's above the law and doesn't have to answer to anyone.
▶ 6:21:13How about having the Doge people? Are they accountable to anyone? Mr. Neil and I have asked and written and said, "No, we're not going to have a hearing. We've not heard anything about our request." These are decent people on the other side of the aisle. They know. They know what I'm talking about.
▶ 6:21:36It's got to be as much of an embarrassment to them as it is more importantly to the American people that someone is given permission to go in and look at all their records and then stole them and put them in an unsecure cloud. For what reason did they need to do that? Why are they in there? And oh, we were told because OF ALL THE FRAUD, ABUSE, AND WASTE.
▶ 6:22:06WELL, what did they find? Where is it? Why aren't they before this We all know why. Because the attempt is to privatize Social Security and everybody on the other side is silent because they know that that's the truth as well. The American people need to be aware of this. Mr.
▶ 6:22:31Chairman, for the record, I'd like to submit articles written by the New York Times, articles written by the New York Post, published by CNN, ABC, NBC, and others that are calling Doge to come forward and at least for us to have a hearing. Are they all above the law where we can't question anyone?
▶ 6:22:59The committee of cognizance can't question. Without objection, they're ordered into the record.
▶ 6:23:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 6:23:12Thank you. Additional members wish to strike the last word. Mr. Estus.
▶ 6:23:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike last word. I I'd like to make a few comments about uh this particular piece of legislation that's that's before us that's been introduced by uh Mr. Thompson and Mr. Fong. I mean, as a member of the clergy, uh, you're entitled, uh, when you go into that profession and spend your your life and your career focusing on helping other folks, you have the opportunity to opt out of Social Security, uh, when you when you start your career path.
▶ 6:23:42And what this piece of legislation is is it allows these members of the clergy to to be able to have an opportunity uh for a two-year period to opt into Social Security if they so chose to so that they can enjoy the b the benefits and advantages of other Social Security participants uh who work their careers and contribute into the Social Security program.
▶ 6:24:06One of the things I'd like to say uh you know in terms of how how wonderful the program is that we've had it operating for for decades now and that for over 40 years there's not been an increase in the payroll tax that's taken out of the wages of individuals whether you're clergies or whether you're anybody else.
▶ 6:24:24And so it it's a great program and I think it's a program that many members of the clergy is going to be uh participants in and be able to uh to join the rest of their their fellow Americans who are uh working and participating in the social security system. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 6:24:41Thank you. Additional members to strike the last word. Seeing none, are there any amendments um to the amendment in the nature of a Seeing none, the question is on the adoption of the amendment and the nature of a substitute. All those in favor signify by saying I.
▶ 6:25:05Those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a
▶ 6:25:16Mr. Mr. Chairman, [clears throat] I move the committee favorably reports HR 227 as amended to the House of
▶ 6:25:24The question is on the motion to favorably report HR 227 as amended to the House of Representatives. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 6:25:33Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 6:25:36Mr. Buchanan. Yes. Mr. Smith of Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. Yes, Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Schwikert. Yes, Mr. Leood. Mr. Le Hood. Yes, Mr. Arrington. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. Yes, Mr. Smucker. Mr.
▶ 6:26:02Hearn, Mrs. Miller,
▶ 6:26:11Dr. Murphy,
▶ 6:26:12Dr. Murphy. Yes, Mr. Kristoff.
▶ 6:26:16Mr. Kustoff. Yes. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Mr. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Yes. Mr. Stwie. Mr. Stwie. Yes. Miss Tenny. Miss. Tenny. Yes. Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore.
▶ 6:26:32Mr. Moore. Yes. Miss. Van Dyene. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. Yes. Miss Maliaakus. Miss Malotakus. Yes. Mr. Kerry. Mr. Kerry. Yes. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 6:26:51Mr. Yakam. Yes. Mr. Miller.
▶ 6:26:55Mr. Bean.
▶ 6:26:57Mr. Bean. Yes.
▶ 6:27:01Mr. Moran.
▶ 6:27:02Mr. Moran. Yes. Mr. Neil.
▶ 6:27:06Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Thompson. Hi.
▶ 6:27:15Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 6:27:18Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Delben. Miss Delen. Yes. Miss. Chu.
▶ 6:27:36Miss. Chu. Yes. Miss Moore. Hi.
▶ 6:27:39Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Boille. Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer. Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 6:27:50Mr. Schneder.
▶ 6:27:52Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta.
▶ 6:27:56Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 6:28:03Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horford. Mr. Horford. Yes. Miss Plask.
▶ 6:28:11Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 6:28:14Mr. Swazy. Yes.
▶ 6:28:19Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Yes. Mr. Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn, Mrs. Miller,
▶ 6:28:55Miss Vanine,
▶ 6:28:57Miss Vanine, Mr. Miller. Mr. Dogget,
▶ 6:29:19Miss Sanchez,
▶ 6:29:25Miss Su,
▶ 6:29:27how is Miss Miller recorded?
▶ 6:29:33Mrs. Miller is not recorded. Mrs. Miller,
▶ 6:29:39How is Mr. Hearn recorded?
▶ 6:29:42Mr. Hearn is not recorded.
▶ 6:29:44Mr. Hearn, yes, Mr. Evans.
▶ 6:30:01Chairman Smith.
▶ 6:30:03Chairman Smith.
▶ 6:30:16How is Mr. Dogget recorded?
▶ 6:30:20Mr. Dogget is not recorded. Mr. Dogget. Yes. The clerk will report the vote.
▶ 6:30:56Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 40, the nos are zero.
▶ 6:31:00There being 40 yeses and zero nos, the motion is agreed to in HR 227 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to HR 227 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views.
▶ 6:31:22Our next order of business is HR 2716, the Ending Improper Payments to Deceased People Act, sponsored by Representative Higgins. This legislation extends current authority allowing the Social Security Administration to share the records of deceased individuals with the Treasury Department's do not pay system, ensuring federal tax dollars only go to living eligible individuals.
▶ 6:31:49In 2023 alone, before this policy was even implemented, the federal government sent 1.3 billion to dead people. Current law requires the Social Security Administration to share its full death data with do not pay until December 2026. This temporary sharing period has proven that this policy is effective in fighting improper payments across the federal government.
▶ 6:32:17In its first year alone, Treasury reported the data exchange saved American taxpayers over $108 million. This is a common sense policy and has also passed the Senate with broad bipartisan support. I want to personally thank Representative Klay Higgins for his leadership on this legislation.
▶ 6:32:38As a former law enforcement officer, I know he feels strongly about protecting Americans from criminals and being a good steward of their hard-earned tax dollars. I urge my colleagues to support the the bill and I now recognize the ranking member from Massachusetts, Mr. Nil, for his opening statement.
▶ 6:32:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to yield my time to no better voice on this issue, the gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Larson. Uh thank you ranking member Neil and uh thank you uh Mr.
▶ 6:33:09chairman and I thank everybody who worked on this bill and as the chairman pointed out uh as it's come over from the Senate now and amended and on its face of course I think everything the chairman said is um is valid except as I was saying earlier on the previous bill we all know what's missing here we all know what's going done.
▶ 6:33:39In February of this year, the administration forced out the acting commissioner of social security because Michelle King wouldn't grant Doge access to SSA's database, which contained the personal information of every American. We then asked that Mr. Musk and Doge come before this It wasn't granted.
▶ 6:34:09So we followed rule 13 clause 7 and asked for a resolution of inquiry. It was granted but Mr. Musk never showed up and the resolution was defeated and then in fact you guys did away with that resolution.
▶ 6:34:32what the minority has in the ability to call people before this committee to get essential answers about what they're doing to every single American looking at their personal data and Why do they need that? What did Mr. Musk have in mind with that?
▶ 6:35:01Was it just because of curiosity? Why is it being placed in an insecure cloud where previously these were protected? It's why Michelle King stepped down from her position because she would not grant access by Doge to be able to go over every single person in this country's data and
▶ 6:35:34The new handpicked acting commissioner opened the floodgates and let Doge into the agency and into every American's personal information. As I said before, we introduced a resolution of inquiry, but that was turned down. Apparently, Elon Musk and Doge are above the law. They don't have to answer to Congress. they don't have to answer to this committee.
▶ 6:36:03That's not how the American public feels and that's not how the New York Times or the Washington Post or CNN feels and that's why they all have written and editorialized about it and yet still no action.
▶ 6:36:19In March, we also introduced bill to stop DOL from accessing accessing American people's data at SSA and also stop this administration from shuttering field offices that seniors and disabled workers relied on. Again, no action from the committee. After the Supreme Court didn't stop their behavior, we wrote you, Mr.
▶ 6:36:46chairman requesting that this committee hold an immediate markup on our bill to stop Doge from accessing SSA data. And again, we heard nothing. Fast forward to August, a whistleblower comes forward and says that Doge has copied the personal and confidential information of every single to a vulnerable and insecure Carl Cloud. Mr.
▶ 6:37:16Chairman, we need to have Doge in front of us. We need to have Elon Musk come before this committee and answer why it is. And if this committee won't do it, maybe we need the press and the media and the general public to demand of Congress what this committee and the United States Congress has not done.
▶ 6:37:44It is a dereliction of our duty and our responsibility to the citizens we're sworn to serve. You're going to have to answer to your citizens when they say to you, "Why did you let them pour over my personal data and records?" I yield back. The committee will now proceed to consideration of HR 2716, the ending improper payments to deceased people act.
▶ 6:38:14Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute, which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it. And without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point, and considered base text for purpose of amendment. I will now uh turn
▶ 6:38:37I will now turn to Ben Ritter um tax and social security policy adviser to provide a technical description of the amendment and the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his
▶ 6:38:54Chairman Smith, ranking member Neil, and members of the committee. As introduced by Representative Higgins of Louisiana, HR 2716 directs the Social Security Administration to permanently share death data obtained from states with the Department of Treasury's do not pay working system to prevent improper payments to deceased individuals.
▶ 6:39:14Under current law, the SSA is directed to enter into a cooperative agreement with Treasury's do not pay working system for the purposes of sharing death records to prevent improper payments to deceased individuals for a three-year period beginning in December 20 beginning in December 2023 and ending in December HR 2716 directs the SSA to continue sharing this data with the do not pay working system permanently.
▶ 6:39:41As described in the green sheet distributed yesterday, the chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute additionally requires that the cooperative agreement between the SSA and Treasury's do not pay working system to determine Treasury's proportional share of costs associated with death state death data.
▶ 6:39:58The amendment also includes data integrity measures to ensure that deaths are not are only added to a record if the SSA has clear and convincing evidence to support that the individual should be presumed to be deceased and to allow the SSA to notify other agencies with a cooperative cooperative agreement if any erroneous records have been shared. Finally, the amendment in the nature of a substitute modifies the effective date from December 28, 2026 to December 27th, 2026.
▶ 6:40:28Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Neil, members of the committee. This concludes my walkthrough and I welcome any questions related to the technical nature of the amendment and the nature of a substitute.
▶ 6:40:37Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment and the nature of a substitute? Mr. Larson.
▶ 6:40:43Y thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 6:40:45Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, I'll ask you who is Doge,
▶ 6:40:51sir. Again, happy to answer questions related to
▶ 6:40:55the very people that are overseeing and looking at
▶ 6:40:58technical questions.
▶ 6:41:00The very people that are overseeing Why isn't it a technical question to say that the people that are doing this and creating this at Social Security? We can't find out their names. You won't have them come before the committee.
▶ 6:41:15Mr. Larson Doge is not mentioned in the House committee substitute and what he will answer questions to are technical questions to the the House committee
▶ 6:41:25Well, then Mr. Chairman, will you commit to bringing Doge before us or Elon Musk or will you continue to stop and block us and tell us no in the Congress we have to be silent? We can't ask questions and then you ask that we only ask a technical question when you know damn well
▶ 6:41:43what the answer is. All of you don't. Are you going to bring them before us or
▶ 6:41:51Uh, you'll find out when I make a notice of anyone or any hearing that we have.
▶ 6:41:56I I think I know a no when I hear it. And so, well, uh, since we can't ask you any relevant questions with respect to what's going on, uh, while we have a raging fire burning like crazy, for all of our constituents, what we're doing here today, however good and well intended this legislation is, that's bringing a bucket of water to the raging fire
▶ 6:42:26that's going on that impacts tax over 300 million people, 73 million people who are currently receiving benefits. 10,000 baby boomers a day who become eligible. 5 million fellow Americans in all of our district who get below poverty level checks and we do nothing.
▶ 6:42:48WE GIVE BILLIONS OF dollars away to millionaires and billionaires, but we can't take care of our own constituents and we can't even have them in front of our committee to answer What kind of a democracy is this? What kind of a committee process is I yield back.
▶ 6:43:17Are there any technical questions about the amendment and the nature of a substitute? Technical questions, Mr.
▶ 6:43:24Thank you. Very technical. Mr. Ritter, uh, I want to better understand what difference this bill makes. If the Social Security Administration currently has memorandums of understanding with various agencies so that they get immediate update when someone has passed away. uh as I understand it, you're going to kind of get it all in under one umbrella, but if those memorandum of un memoranda of understanding are working, uh this bill really does nothing.
▶ 6:43:55So the Bureau of Fiscal Service has um stated that they have uh that in the past year where that data has been shared um with Treasury do not pay working system that um they have seen uh return on investment of around $und00 million. But to your point about um the current cooperative agreements with with agencies, um this bill would not stop those agencies from continuing those cooperative agreements.
▶ 6:44:25Um they those agencies would also be able to go to do not pay working system to again access similar data. Um but at no cost to them. Well, it is there is there any evidence that there's a problem here that they're not getting that Social Security is not promptly getting the information about people as they pass away?
▶ 6:44:46It's it's not to my understanding it's not an issue with the SSA receiving the data from the states, but how that data is then disseminated to other agencies including uh uh benefit paying agencies uh federal agencies.
▶ 6:45:02So if someone made the preposterous claim that people were getting social security benefits when they were 150 or 350 years old, uh social security will has the information now to ensure that doesn't happen.
▶ 6:45:17Correct. But the agency has state state
▶ 6:45:21You don't as far as the social security benefit from this. You don't see that Social Security is going to get any benefit and be able to do its job any better if this bill passes or it
▶ 6:45:32I think I think the benefit would be to the other other agencies that don't currently access that data.
▶ 6:45:38Who are those agencies and what benefit will there be?
▶ 6:45:41So, the a SSA currently has cooperative agreements with eight federal agencies. all there's another 70 agencies that could have access to death data through do not pay working system um that currently don't access death data uh directly with with the SSA.
▶ 6:46:06Has there been any expression of concern or indication that there's a problem out there or is this just a bill in search of a problem? Um so again the Bureau of Fiscal Service has shown um that there's been a reduction um identification of around 100 million in proper payments just uh the first year of implementation alone. Um so this bill would extend the current pilot program indefinitely.
▶ 6:46:33Thank you very much
▶ 6:46:35Mr. N.
▶ 6:46:36Thank you. Uh thank you Mr. Ritter. Can you tell this committee with all to reassure us that there is nobody 300 years old receiving a social security
▶ 6:46:51To to my knowledge, sir, I I I
▶ 6:46:54You're dubious at least.
▶ 6:46:56Thank you. How about maybe 200 years
▶ 6:47:00Sure. With without having those records in front of me, I I couldn't answer that with 100% certainty.
▶ 6:47:05How about 150 years old, though? Same answer as as as previously, sir.
▶ 6:47:10Okay. So, if we could get those records, would you be prepared to confirm the
▶ 6:47:19Sure. Without Without having that in front of me, I have to double check.
▶ 6:47:23Thank you, Mr. Ritter.
▶ 6:47:26Are there additional technical
▶ 6:47:33A technical question, Mr. Chairman? Seeing none, we will move to strike the last word. Mr. Swikert, I'll go with you to strike the last word. Any members wish to strike the last
▶ 6:47:50Mr. Dogget.
▶ 6:47:52Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Social Security is clearly our most successful and essential federal initiative that is providing modest retirement, disability, and survivor benefits to about 69 million Americans. It is a social insurance contract with every American paying in every day that they are working with a federal promise of reliable monthly checks and economic security in retirement and times of disability.
▶ 6:48:21And for about 22 million Americans, Social Security is the difference between living in poverty. And for 40%, it's more than half of their income. It's what puts food on the table, lights on week after week. Despite its immen immense success, some Republicans continued the drive to undermine Social Security. And leading the charge is a fellow named Donald J. Trump.
▶ 6:48:45You'll remember that President Trump appointed Elon Musk who proclaimed that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme and gave him authority to go over and raid the Social Security Administration and weaken it just as much as possible. For months, Doge or what I call the Department of Government evisceration promoted related lies, undermining the ability to deliver checks and quality service.
▶ 6:49:09The Trump administration through Doge abruptly fired thousands of Social Security workers and it continues to enact erratic policy changes. Now the plan uh within the last few days after telling people they had to go to a Social Security office to get any help. Now it is to cut in-person office visits at Social Security offices around the country in half. Cut them in by 50%.
▶ 6:49:35just another effort to obstruct Americans access to their hard-earned benefits. It's all a ploy to undermine Americans confidence in this vital program so that nobody is surprised when one day their monthly payments arrive late or eventually come inadequately from an insufficient trust fund.
▶ 6:49:54And when President Trump came and addressed a joint session of this Congress this year, he devoted time to laugh and ridicule about Social Security operations at length, claiming that payments might be going out to people that were born 150 years ago, going out to people who were born before America became a country. What total nonsense. Thanks to Social Security's anti-fraud guard rails, that is not happening.
▶ 6:50:23Today's bill is trivial. In fact, as the Republican witness just indicated, it does absolutely zero for Social Security. It just creates the appearance that Republicans are doing something about this supposed fraud that doesn't exist. The sharing of information about deaths is already happening and an independent investigation found that Social Security has an incredible success rate with less than 1% of improper payments and many of those are actually underpayments, not overpayments.
▶ 6:50:55The Trump regime is perpetuating the spirit of those who tried to block FDR's creation of Social Security in the first place. the Republican congressman who claimed that social security would quote enslave workers and another Republican congressman who declared quote the lash of the dictator will be felt. And not to be outdone, a sitting Republican senator in this Congress uh has said that what we need to do is pull it up by the roots and get rid of it.
▶ 6:51:25That's what we're concerned about. Republicans, of course, have a curious and rather narrow interest in fraud. Trump has been busy pardoning one fraudster after another. We haven't heard a peep from Republicans, not about his wrongful pardons, nor within the days of his the very first days of his inauguration, his abrupt and unjustifiable firing of Social Security's Inspector General.
▶ 6:51:50That's the watchdog over at Social Security who's responsible for dealing with fraud and protecting taxpayers hard-earned dollars. And just in one year, that inspector general previously saved Social Security about $ 122.4 billion through audits and investigations. And House Republicans have remained totally mute all this year as Trump has continued to fail to nominate a replacement inspector general.
▶ 6:52:17Just as they yell fraud as an excuse to replace Obamacare with nothing care while reinstating the suspended insurance brokers that created the problem, they are yelling fraud about Social Security. And really, Treasury Secretary Bessant blew the cover because recently he indicated that their big ugly bill is a quote back door to privatize Social Security. Social Security is life-saving. It's irreplaceable. It's a social contract.
▶ 6:52:45Americans deserve a restored watchdog, an efficient program that ensures swift and easy access to their payments and consumer assistance. I yield back.
▶ 6:52:55Additional members wish to strike the last word. Mr. Thompson.
▶ 6:53:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. This bill, unfortunately, is a solution in the hunt for a problem. Everyone agrees that improper payments to deceased individuals should not happen. The reality is they rarely happen in the first place. Social Security already has a robust safeguard. They maintain a comprehensive death data system.
▶ 6:53:30Treasury already cross-checks death records and independent audits show that this is working. And I'd like to submit for the record, Mr. chairman, a Social Security Administration uh report by the Inspector General. Uh some of us remember when there used to be inspector generals before this administration got rid of them.
▶ 6:53:52And this inspector general report that I'm asking to be submitted for the for the record shows that less than 1% of payments made are improper and uh even less than those go to deceased individuals. And as Mr. Dogget has pointed out a lot of the uh of the errors that they find are underpay payments. So these are social security recipients who didn't get what they were fully owed.
▶ 6:54:19Since this legislation just makes permanent a practice that is already in use to prevent fraud, all support it. But let's not lose sight of the fact that this is simply a Republican manufactured crisis to undermine trust in Social Security. It allows Republicans to claim Social Security um is full of waste, fraud, and abuse.
▶ 6:54:44Waste, fraud, and abuse that the administration has yet to point out, yet to prove. In fact, I asked the attorney general for information on ongoing criminal investigations and/or convictions relating to this alleged fraud because fraud is a crime. And surprise surprise, I haven't heard a peep back from the attorney general. So I'd like to enter, Mr.
▶ 6:55:10Chairman, into the record uh my letter to the attorney general asking uh to have record of uh these crimes or alleged crimes andor
▶ 6:55:24Both items um submitted. Uh
▶ 6:55:28thank you, Mr. Chairman. uh maybe if it's part of the official record uh she'll take time to read it and respond to it. So um madame attorney general, my letters now in the congressional record. Please read it. Please respond to Congress as to whether or not you're doing your job or is there a job to do? Uh has there been waste, fraud, and abuse?
▶ 6:55:52Are you uh are you pursuing this or is just more malarkey uh to cast doubt on the Social Security uh system? If my Republican colleagues were serious about preventing improper payments, they would fully fund the Social Security administration, remove the hiring freezes, provide the money necessary to modernize the system, and stop using Social Security as a political prop.
▶ 6:56:21This bill is unnecessary, unproductive, and part of a broader campaign to undermine trust in the most successful program that the federal government has ever set forth. I yield back the balance of my time,
▶ 6:56:36Mr. Larson.
▶ 6:56:38U Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh I know that the our colleagues on the other side of the aisle uh can appreciate the anger that we have. Think about this. The nation's number one anti-poverty program for the elderly.
▶ 6:57:08The nation's number one anti-poverty program for children. The nation's number one disability pro program that more veterans utilize than they do the VA. 10,000 baby boomers a day become for social security.
▶ 6:57:34More than five million of our fellow Americans, most of them women and most of them women of color, get below poverty level checks having paid into a system all their lives because of There has not been comprehensive reform to social security since Richard Nixon was
▶ 6:58:04president of the United States. Here we are in this postcoavid global inflationary period where wealth is at an all-time high and the Congress of the United States could be helping out those that are on fixed income who get hurt the most during this time.
▶ 6:58:33and instead we turn our backs on the people that need our assistance the most. And we're voting on legislation, that takes away people's insurance from 15 million people and has another 20 million people see their insurance rates go up.
▶ 6:58:57And the very people that live in every one of your districts aren't seeing their social security check enhanced for the first time since 1971. This is where the anger comes because it's beyond the pale that what Elon Musk is up to is privatization.
▶ 6:59:29Boy, and wouldn't he like to get his hands on that $2 trill700 Mr. Chairman, that's what this is all It's about $2 trillion700 billion dollar of the people's money. American people rise up. Be on the alert. This is what's going on here.
▶ 7:00:00That's why no one will be coming before this committee to testify. That's why the press and the media have to intensify and inform the public because you're not going to hear it from this Congress.
▶ 7:00:15You're never going to see witnesses that are coming before this committee to talk about what is essentially the lifeline to every single American and especially during these times when people are struggling to make ends And what would this do?
▶ 7:00:43It would be the best economic development plan that we would have in the country because all 435 congressional districts on average receive $280 million a month. That hasn't been changed since 1971 either. And where do they spend that money, Mr. Chairman? Right back in the communities that they live.
▶ 7:01:09right back in each and every one of these 435 districts. And you won't even allow a hearing, let alone on a vote. American people demand a vote. When we're in charge, we'll put legislation that will enhance Social Security across the board. Make sure that there's no more taxes on Social Security.
▶ 7:01:36make sure that more than 5 million people don't get below poverty level checks after having paid in all their lives. This is not Republican or Democrat or unaffiliated. It's American and the most important thing we can do. I yield back.
▶ 7:01:55Mr. Arrington. I I've almost forgotten exactly what this bill is being proposed to do and to achieve. While I appreciate some of these um ancillary issues, ancillary to the bill that's being proposed, I can't for the life of me why anyone would oppose preventing waste, fraud, and abuse.
▶ 7:02:26and exercising our oversight. And so you all will support this bill. I I will the gentleman yield.
▶ 7:02:35No, let me finish my
▶ 7:02:37Well, [laughter] I just heard a lot of criticisms and then I heard uh I heard some rants about things that I don't know are relevant to what we're trying to do. So I was so we we do have bipartisan support for protecting um tax dollars and preventing uh bad information, deceased individuals being uh used to defraud the federal government. That is universally accepted and I'm glad let me just go ahead Mr.
▶ 7:03:07Anington pretty knowledgeable guy. What did you think of when the president of the United States stood in the well of the house and said there were 300 year olds getting social security benefits?
▶ 7:03:18Well, we're fired up about it.
▶ 7:03:21Well, let me ask you a question.
▶ 7:03:22Well, maybe 200 year old. Oh, down to
▶ 7:03:25Well, I would ask you I would ask you the same question. When the GAO, not Donald Trump and not President Biden, but nonpartisan GAO said that there were tens of thousands of social security numbers from deceased individuals that are being used to draw down the enhanced premium tax credit. How did you all feel about it? Because right now, and I hate to get off on this tangent, but right now we're y'all are asking for a clean extension of it.
▶ 7:03:53We're not putting any of the program integrity measures that we're talking about here. We're not talking about the program integrity measures we passed in the big beautiful bill that saved $185 billion. Hold on. On ACA saved 185 billion dollars of of uh sacred treasure of our fellow citizens because of the anti-fraud measures and financial controls we put in place. And it was a trillion overall.
▶ 7:04:21I just I I I get the whole question about President Trump, but the I think the more relevant question from the nonpartisan CBO that says over six million ineligible people drew down the subsidy. Actually, they didn't draw it down, but they were they used six million ineligible people. Somebody to have a subsidy go to an insurance company that could have gone to somebody that was eligible.
▶ 7:04:50first as far as this bill is concerned
▶ 7:04:54You understand that your witness has just testified as far as waste, fraud, and abuse or anything else, this bill provides absolutely zero benefit to the Social Security Administration.
▶ 7:05:04Well, let me let me make sure I the pilot program that used the database of social security so that we prevented people using deceased individuals to defraud the government to strengthen the do not pay program at the treasury has saved in one year $109 million.
▶ 7:05:24It's claimed that those savings relate to other agencies. I just there may be some other collateral benefit but in terms of you're talking about waste fraud and abuse for social security social security
▶ 7:05:33I'm talking about using social security's database so we prevent waste fraud and abuse across the government which has happened and and then one last point and then I can I can yield back and and uh
▶ 7:05:47but one of the confusing points were was the line of questioning about the about
▶ 7:05:52with what's happening in Minnesota with the reports of 5 trillion ion dollars. Uh that's on the high end, but upwards of of four and a half trillion fraud
▶ 7:06:05You understand none of that has to do with social.
▶ 7:06:06But I'm just saying with all of that,
▶ 7:06:09why why wouldn't we want to deploy every resource and all the energy uh that we can muster as a committee and every committee to ensure we steward that? And so Doge, while that's fine to have the discussion, debate, Doge wasn't even a gleam in the eye of anybody.
▶ 7:06:29How about just restoring the inspector
▶ 7:06:31in 2020 watchdog?
▶ 7:06:33But 2023, listen, if $5 trillion is the amount of money over the budget window of fraud and it's about$2 trillion now on improper payments
▶ 7:06:45over 10 years, somebody's not doing a good job. Somebody, right? And it's probably all of us. the inspector general can't do his job at all.
▶ 7:06:52My last point is this. Doge, all these questions about Doge are really irrelevant to No, they are relevant. Crediting of Social Security, the firing of the employees that are responsible for fraud protection.
▶ 7:07:07This program started in 2023. 2023 is when it was enacted. Actually started in 24. President Biden was in the Oval Office. There was no Doge. We should get off of that. We can debate it. It's a We can have that conversation, but I just find it to be
▶ 7:07:24when goes in fires, the very people responsible for preventing fraud lays them off.
▶ 7:07:30That's very relevant to this. And when he fires people and and closes offices and people can't get go in and get their social security information that undermines social security. That's what the concern
▶ 7:07:41I yield. Thank you.
▶ 7:07:42Thank you,
▶ 7:07:44Miss Delen. Thank you, Mike.
▶ 7:07:48Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike the last word. Um, while I'm supportive of the amendment in the nature of a substitute, I think I would be remiss if I also don't highlight the much larger concerns I have regarding this administration's mishandling of American sensitive data.
▶ 7:08:09Um, we can all agree that we want government to run as securely and efficiently as possible and to use every available tool to prevent waste, fraud, and misuse of taxpayer dollars. But what we apparently don't all agree on is whether it's acceptable for the Trump administration to build a vast database containing confidential data on every American or to turn a blind eye to a whistleblowers allegation that Doge uploaded a copy of a database
▶ 7:08:39containing hundreds of millions of American social security numbers, birth dates, and home addresses to a vulnerable cloud server with no If Republicans really want to get serious about taxpayer data protections and stamping out wasteful spending and they would call out this inappropriate behavior.
▶ 7:09:03Ensure our government agencies are appropriately staffed and fund vital resources to better serve working families and to do oversight in this committee. Um, I hope we will have that conversation as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, and I yield
▶ 7:09:23Mr. Estus.
▶ 7:09:25Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move strike last word. I I I just want to talk a little bit more. There's been a lot of debate back and forth about uh what really we are debating here. You know, this bill HR 2716, Ending Improper Payments to Deceased People's Act, is really focused on the Treasury B Bureau of Fiscal Services. Treasury Bureau of Fiscal Services pays a lot of payments for federal agencies, Social Security, as well as a host of other agencies.
▶ 7:09:53And as part of that process, they have a do not pay file, which means you don't pay for people that aren't eligible for some reason or another. Um I I I'm fairly familiar with that process just from a standpoint of we had a do not pay file in the state of Kansas. uh and it was utilized to help make sure that that the proper payments were being made across whatever state agencies were.
▶ 7:10:16And also want to add to this mix is that you know three years ago roughly uh in the consolidated act of uh consolidated appro appropriations act of 2021 it was authorized that the treasury's bureau of fiscal services could have access to the social securityurities deathm file.
▶ 7:10:38Social Security's death master file is the best, if maybe not the only national database that tracks people that have passed away. Uh, it consolidates from the different states and pulls together from vital statistics of individuals that have passed away and been reported as as deceased. Uh that's just one source of information that can be useful for Treasury's fiscal services to actually make sure that proper payments are made across all industries.
▶ 7:11:08And so the the intent here of this bill is the the with the consolidated appropriations act of 2021. We we have seen that in 2024 uh during that course of that year there was almost $ 109 million in improper payments across the federal government that was halted because of being able to access the data from the death master file in social security that helped the treasuries do not pay file do its
▶ 7:11:39job most efficiently. Um, that's that's a small piece of the anticipated or expected $162 billion in improper payments, but it's a good piece in terms of helping taxpayers through that process. Now, this pilot program expires next year, and without this piece of legislation, Treasury would not be able to get this information, would not be able to utilize it in in the processing of payments that they make for various agencies across the federal government.
▶ 7:12:09So, uh, the value of this piece of, uh, this this bill is actually making sure that Treasury is more efficient in making sure that it prevents as much as possible waste, fraud, and abuse across the federal government. So, uh, I'm an advocate and I encourage my colleagues to support for this bill. With that, I yield back.
▶ 7:12:27Thank you, Miss Chu.
▶ 7:12:28I move to strike the last word. Uh, the Department of the Treasury has had temporary access to the Social Security Administration's death master file since December 2023, thanks to a pilot program. I support the intent of HR2716, the bill before us today to make that access permanent.
▶ 7:12:49But we cannot talk about this bill without acknowledging the current administration's history of misusing data and specifically of falsifying SSA's death record to weaponize it against immigrants in this country. The death master file is supposed to be the most complete and accurate federal database of individuals reported to have died.
▶ 7:13:13Yet, this past April, President Trump's Social Security Administration placed more than 6,000 living immigrants onto the death master file. These were all people who had legal status and had lawfully obtained social security numbers, but the Trump administration decided to revoke their legal status and then SSA falsely marked them as deceased.
▶ 7:13:41And this immediately sent these individuals lives into chaos because being added to the death master file revokes your ability to legally work in this country. It triggers financial institutions to shut down your bank accounts, credit cards, mortgage, and other phto accounts. Many of these people had to go into an SSA field office to prove they were still alive and then start the arduous process of restoring their lives.
▶ 7:14:10After strong public outcry and legal challenges, the finally reversed course and removed these living people off the death master file, marking them as unverifiable instead. And why did the administration do all this?
▶ 7:14:29Well, Social Security Commissioner Frank Biznano brazingly admitted that they are intentionally shutting down immigrants financial lives to try to get them to selfdeport. So, while I'm glad the amendment in the nature of a substitute of the bill before us today includes a provision to prohibit the Social Security Administration, the commissioner from ever adding an individual to the death record unless there is clear and convincing
▶ 7:14:59evidence the person is actually dead. I am incredibly troubled that such a provision would be necessary in the first place. It should be totally unthinkable for an administration to falsify a government database for any reason, let alone to target a group of people.
▶ 7:15:20And yet, this is exactly the kind of unconscionable actions this administration has taken over and over Just to name a few, recently we learned that SSA is sharing social security data with the Department of Homeland Security to target immigrants. the same DHS that's been disappearing people off the streets with no due process.
▶ 7:15:43And then in August, a whistleblower reported about how Doge members at SSA uploaded all our social security data to an unsecured cloud server, jeopardizing the privacy and security of every single American. And we still don't know what our private data is being used for and who has access to it.
▶ 7:16:04And then there are the thousands of staff layoffs at SSA which have resulted in absurdly long wait times, backlogs, and delays for our constituents who are just trying to access their earned benefits. Instead of fixing the customer service crisis, the administration is simply covering up the problem by removing a bunch of performance data from their website. And finally, there are the administration's relentless lies about Social Security.
▶ 7:16:34From the ridiculous claim that tens of millions of dead people were getting Social Security benefits, which has been totally debunked, to Trump's billionaire Secretary of Commerce saying that if benefits were halted, only fraudsters would complain.
▶ 7:16:51Yet, my colleagues uh on the Republican side have refused to speak out or do anything to hold this administration So, while I will support the bill we are voting on today, let us not forget that this administration is waging an allout attack against social security, against immigrants, and against the privacy and security of every single American.
▶ 7:17:16Democrats won't stop fighting to hold the administration accountable and I urge Republicans to join us. I yield
▶ 7:17:26Thank you. I now recognize Miss Moore for five minutes to strike the last
▶ 7:17:31Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to associate myself with the comments of of my Democratic colleagues uh on the day is here that ultimately we have seen the Republican party consistently trying to undermine the security of social security undermine the privacy of social security and actually to steal the data.
▶ 7:17:58I it seems like only yesterday as I sit here next to Miss Chu that we went into Speaker Johnson's office when the Doge Boys broke in and the first place that they broke into was [snorts] the Social Security records. That's that's where they started. And we asked the speaker where was the data, what were they doing with it? And he was very honest with us. He had no idea. He did not know.
▶ 7:18:26And I tell you, AI is that next big thing in our economy, not only in this country, but in the world. And as we look at the wealthiest people on earth, including people like uh Larry Page, co-founder of Google, and Jeff Bezos, Amazon, and Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook, Meta, Instagram, the next first trillionaire in data will probably be Elon Musk.
▶ 7:18:56the guy who sent in his doge boys and they put thumb in our system. Where is our data? Well, it's not so much a mystery where our data is now as we see some of the developments of what is being done with data.
▶ 7:19:16We see these feckless lawsuits where the Justice Department somehow is being able to access people's social security numbers and all of the supposed political enemies of the president, people who prosecuted him and uh participated in the impeachments suddenly um are are on trial.
▶ 7:19:38We've seen this data used uh to undermine voting rights and as Mischu has pointed out quite e eloquently it has been is weaponized immigration uh and uh immigration enforcement. um you know this uh data now is being used to to blackmail governors that if they don't give up data that SNAP administrative fees will will be withheld.
▶ 7:20:08Um the Department of Health and Human Services and this administration is demanding health data, threatening not to pay providers if they don't provide the health data. Um, and you know to your question and he's never here when I'm talking to him um about ancillary issues. These are not ancillary issues.
▶ 7:20:34Of course, we agree that deceased person's information should go to Treasury as it already does. But we're not, you know, and you know, even former members bills, Representative Higgins is being brought back from the grave here um to push this bill forward.
▶ 7:20:53I want to talk about the real live human beings, all of us that are being affected where our data is not only is it not secure, but it's being used uh to weaponize it against all of us. even visitors to our country.
▶ 7:21:14Who who would come to our country when visitors are being told that you got to give up all your social media data before you can before you can come to the United States of America. Yep. Data is that next big thing and I would yield to Mr. Dog at the rest of my time. I can see that he is jumping.
▶ 7:21:38I believe you've covered it well and uh that it's just pretty clear that this bill is only cover for those who want to promote the myth that something is going wrong at social security and endanger the credibility and the trust that Americans have in this successful program.
▶ 7:21:57Uh so we know that this bill will do nothing at all zero from their witness to help social security but it does uh add to the the atmosphere that there's something wrong or uh inadequate about social security.
▶ 7:22:12And then there is the major issue which I will address in a little while about the invasion of our privacy with the database that they have had Doge build because Doge didn't go over just to undermine social security, dismiss employees, close offices, and make social security less accessible.
▶ 7:22:30And Mr. Dog, it also wants us to normalize our uh American people having their data used.
▶ 7:22:38Precisely. And that's my concern
▶ 7:22:40in private ways as well as as by the
▶ 7:22:43expose it so that Donald Trump can keep an eye on anyone who doesn't la him as the great leader and that that is a major concern about the misuse of our data. But thank you for the opportunity to add these comments.
▶ 7:22:56Thank you. Uh I now recognize Mr. Horsford for five minutes to strike the last word.
▶ 7:23:02Thank you to the chairman. I move to strike the last word. Um while I too uh believe that the underlying amendment in the nature of a substitute uh has value, the more critical and urgent matter is the one that my colleagues on the Democratic side are con are trying to uh appeal to our colleagues to understand.
▶ 7:23:28The far greater threat that's happening uh towards social security and one that this committee quite frankly has failed to confront is the growing vulnerability of America's most sensitive personal data.
▶ 7:23:45We had both a subcommittee hearing on social security and a full committee hearing where we heard about the largest data breach in US history that was caused by Elon Musk and his so-called Doge bros who were placed into the Social Security administration got access to an unprecedented amount ount of
▶ 7:24:15confidential social security access that no private act actor, let alone a politically connected billionaire should ever receive. We, my colleagues, keep asking, well, we're just trying to root out waste, fraud, and abuse. Great. Let's work towards that.
▶ 7:24:39And how you accomplish that is by ensuring that there is not this sensitive information that there's no accountability for who has it, how it's being used, or why this committee hasn't brought forward those who were responsible.
▶ 7:24:57We heard from a courageous whistleblower who revealed that Doge personnel had Americans data onto an unsecured cloud That means the social security numbers, names, addresses, core, these are core identifiers that define a person's entire financial and legal identity.
▶ 7:25:23And uh health record, which is a violation of law, were left exposed. And yet this committee has done nothing about and the ranking member, Mr. Neil, and the ranking member of the subcommittee on Social Security, Mr.
▶ 7:25:46Larson, have asked time and again to conduct oversight of this administration, multiple resolutions of inquiry, letters, passionate remarks by my colleagues during hearings and markups, and yet it's all fallen on deaf ears. And now you're going to tell us, "Don't worry about it.
▶ 7:26:09just passed this bill and we'll focus on this measure that takes a pilot and makes it permanent and not address something that affects the personal sensitive information of hundreds of millions of Americans across this country. We must convene a full committee hearing into the data breaches at the Social Security Administration. To do anything at less is a cover up.
▶ 7:26:39And my question to the majority, to the chairman, what are you so afraid of? What is it that they have access to that we don't want the public to know? And why can't the public know how this information that is their personal information is being used?
▶ 7:27:01Yes, we want to ensure that those who are um who have who are deceased no longer receive improper payments, of course. But is that all that we're supposed to do on this committee? Absolutely not. We have a greater responsibility. We have a duty that we've been sworn to uphold on behalf of our constituents. And this committee has a responsibility to do its job.
▶ 7:27:28And right now we are failing to do our job. With that I yield back.
▶ 7:27:36Thank you. Does anyone else wish to strike the last word?
▶ 7:27:42Thank you. Seeing none. Uh are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute?
▶ 7:27:48I could have Mr. Larson. Mr. Dog, do you have an amendment?
▶ 7:27:55Yes. I have an amendment at the desk. Mr. Chairman, I reserve a point of
▶ 7:28:00Point of order has been reserved. Uh will the gentleman suspend while the clerk distributes the amendment?
▶ 7:28:39The gentleman from Texas is recognized for five minutes to speak on his
▶ 7:28:42Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We have established today during this markup that this particular piece of legislation offers absolutely no benefit to the Social Security Administration. It doesn't deal with waste, fraud, and abuse. It won't make it easier for anyone to achieve the full benefits of Social Security.
▶ 7:29:02It may or may not have some benefit for some other agencies, but as far as Social Security, it does continue the myth that uh there's something uh uncertain about Social Security and who receives it, but it won't change anything. this bill uh to speak more positively about it does appear to recognize that the federal government is not free to just roam around in your sensitive personal data whenever it wishes to.
▶ 7:29:31That Congress has passed laws to define what the government can and cannot do with the intimate details that it collects about each of us. This legislation would seem to affirm the principle by updating these laws to clarify when and how narrowly tailored data may occur for lawful purposes to share it. The amendment that I am offering is designed to protect those same privacy rights from a much greater and looming threat.
▶ 7:30:01Donald Trump has been pursuing an unprecedented project to combine all federal data on every American into a master file on every citizen. essentially a digital ID, a doseier tracking where you live, where you work, your earnings, your bank accounts, your health information, even child support agreements, and much more to obtain more insight into the extent of this massive project, this massive invasion of our privacy by someone who
▶ 7:30:31uh daily professes uh his desire for revenge and persecution of anyone that doesn't la him as the great leader that he thinks he is I introduced months ago a resolution of inquiry. It was joined by every Democratic member of this committee.
▶ 7:30:47Our resolution simply asked the administration to turn over all materials related to this massive data aggregation effort and its chosen contractor Palunteer, a company that one Silicon Valley executive once accused of quote building the infrastructure of the police state. And that's precisely what we are concerned with preventing.
▶ 7:31:10With a president whose top priority is revenge, personal enrichment for himself and his family, and self- glorification, this is deeply concerning. But beyond furthering the machinery of a police state, and beyond enabling Trump to target his enemies, this centralization of data creates immense risk for every American family.
▶ 7:31:32It takes some of the same confidential information that's held anywhere in the federal government, social security earnings, histories, bank account, Medicare and Medicaid records, tax data, and it places it into a master file that is vulnerable to any malicious actor or outside threat. There's reason to be concerned about exposing our personal data to hackers.
▶ 7:31:55And there's more reason given the fact that a whistleblower has divulged that social security records of 300 million Americans were uploaded by Doge into an unsecure cloud environment that lacked adequate security. Internal federal re reviews have found alarming weaknesses in Palunteer systems. One internal US Army government uh report described that platform as quote very high risk warning.
▶ 7:32:23So, we're exposing ourselves not only the the dangers of Donald Trump, but the dangers of hackers everywhere. And while Palunteer denies these findings, they raise alarming concerns about how the most sensitive data could soon be linked together in one place. Despite the gravity of these issues, House Republicans don't want to deal with them. And so they found up came up with a nifty way to deal with it on two different occasions with rules that they have passed on totally unrelated subjects.
▶ 7:32:53They have simply postponed the consideration of our resolutions of inquiry so that they can't be considered about these data. I do want to acknowledge one Republican Warren Davidson who has said Trump's arrangement with Palunteer is quote dangerous saying quote when you start combining all these data points on individuals into one database it essentially creates a digital ID and a history that shows that power will be abused.
▶ 7:33:21He is correct about that and that's what we're inquiring about. And here is uh something notable. Palunteer has met with my staff and they say they support this resolution. So if it's Palunteer you're concerned about and they say they have nothing to hide, then support this amendment. It is a vote that would be consistent with their claims. This amendment offers one small but meaningful window into how this secretive project operates.
▶ 7:33:48It would require disclosure of how social security data has been used or misused and creating a digital ID on every American. Safeguard privacy of Americans with a little transparency, a little sunlight by adopting this reasonable amendment. I yield back.
▶ 7:34:04Thank you. Uh before I call in any other members to comment, I I just want to uh make the the the comments around, you know, I believe this is uh unnecessary in terms of bringing this amendment up as we focus on what we're trying to accomplish with this bill.
▶ 7:34:18I mean, uh, I don't necessarily think the House should do what the Senate does, but this piece of legislation, the way it's crafted, which also includes the the language to to make sure that there's uh not incorrect changes being made and added to the the death master file database that's uh transferred over to the do not pay system in Treasury. I think it would carefully it would uh it would upset this carefully created bipartisan bill and structure and and have to go back through the process again.
▶ 7:34:48Would the gentleman yield?
▶ 7:34:49So um I will yield.
▶ 7:34:51Well, all I'm trying to do is take a bill that does nothing for social security and have it do something and the something is to protect our privacy. Thank you.
▶ 7:34:59Thank you. And um I'll anyone else have uh wish to make comments? Mr. Larson?
▶ 7:35:06Well, thank you uh Mr. chairman and I'm I think uh what the committee just heard and I strongly support this amendment is what a legislator and a person who's distinguished himself both in this committee and in the legislature over his time here has put forward a thoughtful
▶ 7:35:37common sense no BS manner of which we should handle. I will withdraw my amendment that I have proposed because I think Mr.
▶ 7:35:51Doggets is broader, is better, goes directly to the point and speaks to his eloquency in terms of what is before us and what is the real threat here to the American people.
▶ 7:36:20As Miss Delb Benny said, the names, addresses, birth dates, social security numbers of over 300 million people. This shouldn't be Democrat or Republican or this is American. This is what we need to stand up for.
▶ 7:36:44his detailed research and legislation covers the scope and raises questions that we haven't as a committee even had the people responsible most notably Mr.
▶ 7:37:03Musk himself and all these Doge appointees, 24 year olds who are unvetted, and have never had to come before the committee of
▶ 7:37:22and explain what they're doing. I fully support Mr. Dogget's bill. I think it is onp point and necessary and as he pointed out directly impacts social security in a way that people need that protection with that I yield to Mr. Dogget if he needs more time.
▶ 7:37:52I think you've covered it adequately. What I don't understand is why Republicans when even Palanteer, which I've questioned and have some concerns about, when even Palanteer says, "We don't have any objection to disclosing this information. This is not legislation that's going to make a change in what President Trump is doing. It is simply exposing to sunlight what has been going on here. Uh what happened with these 300 uh million records?
▶ 7:38:23Don't doesn't every American have a right of privacy that we have enshrined in law and is it being undermined by the administration? So, uh it is a relevant amendment. It's directly responsive to a bill that says it's concerned with privacy but really does nothing to help social security. Uh and all it does is disclose.
▶ 7:38:46and the opposition to it uh really is unreasonable as has been the fact that not once but now twice uh Republicans are so fearful of resolutions of inquiry a proper way of exercising oversight that they won't take them up on their own on their own merit they keep changing the time by which they can be considered and I think they have now postponed it uh it would have been ripe for consideration in this committee last summer.
▶ 7:39:16They've now postponed it until about March. And so, because they won't consider the resolution of inquiry, the only method that I have for bringing this up and protecting the privacy of American citizens is to offer an amendment, a relevant amendment on this bill. And they've got to have some reason other than it adds something to a bill that does nothing for Social Security uh to justify opposing it.
▶ 7:39:42Uh so I we may want maybe we'll hear that now as to why it is sunlight can't apply here and this information can't be disclosed for examination when even the company that the Trump administration has hired says we don't have any objection to your getting it. I yield back.
▶ 7:40:01Any other comments on the amendment?
▶ 7:40:09All right. Uh question is on agreeing to the amendment. All those in favor say
▶ 7:40:15All those opposed no.
▶ 7:40:18In the opinion of the chairs and nos have it.
▶ 7:40:20Um before we call the role on the clerk, I just want to make an announcement to the committee that votes have been called on the floor. And after we conclude the vote on this particular amendment, um we'll move into discussion on unless there's any other amendments.
▶ 7:40:36You do have another amendment.
▶ 7:40:39I will call on you after this just so you you can
▶ 7:40:43in the spirit of Christmas.
▶ 7:40:45Okay. So,
▶ 7:40:46so all right. So, the clerk will call a role on this amendment on Mr. Dog's amendment. Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 7:40:52Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 7:40:54No. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. No. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Mr. Le Hood. Mr. Le Hood. No. Mr. Mr. Estus.
▶ 7:41:14Mr. Estus. No. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn.
▶ 7:41:21Mr. Hearn. No. Mrs. Miller.
▶ 7:41:24Mrs. Miller. No. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Mr. Stwie. Mr. Stwie. No. Miss Tenny.
▶ 7:41:40Miss Tenny. No. Mrs. Fishbach.
▶ 7:41:42Miss. Fishbach. No. Mr. Moore.
▶ 7:41:45Mr. Moore. No. Miss Vanine. Miss. Van. No. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. No. Miss Malotakus.
▶ 7:41:53Miss Maliaakus. No. Mr. Kerry.
▶ 7:41:56Mr. Kerry. No. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 7:42:00Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean. No.
▶ 7:42:05Mr. Bean. No.
▶ 7:42:08Mr. Moran.
▶ 7:42:09Mr. Moran. No. Mr. Neil.
▶ 7:42:14Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget.
▶ 7:42:18Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson.
▶ 7:42:24Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 7:42:26Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis.
▶ 7:42:29Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su Miss Su Yes. Miss Delen Miss Yes. Miss Chu Miss Chu Yes. Miss Moore.
▶ 7:42:46Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Bole.
▶ 7:42:49Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer.
▶ 7:42:52Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans. Mr. Schneider. Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta. Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez. Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horseford. Mr. Horford. Yes. Miss Plask. Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swasy. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr.
▶ 7:43:22Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 7:43:31Mr. Schwiker. No. Mr. Arrington, Mr. Smucker, Mr. Miller, Miss Sanchez, Mr. Evans, Mr. Swasy, Mr. Arrington is not recorded.
▶ 7:44:04Mr. Arrington. No.
▶ 7:44:12Chairman Smith. Chairman Smith. No. The clerk will report the vote. Mr.
▶ 7:44:42Chairman, the yeses are 16, the nos are 24. There being 16 yeses and 24 nos, the amendment is not agreed to.
▶ 7:44:54No addition. If there's no additional amendments, the question on adoption of the amendment. If there are no additional amendments, the question on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of the substitute. All those in favor signify by saying yes.
▶ 7:45:08Those opposed, no. In opinion of chair, the yeses have it. An amendment in the nature of the substitute is recognized, too. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a motion.
▶ 7:45:18Mr. Chairman, I'm The question is on the motion to report to favorably report HR 2716 as amendment as amended to the House of Representatives. The clerk will call the role. Mr. Buchanan. Mr. Buchanan. Yes. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Yes. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. Yes. Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 7:45:49Mr. Mr. Leood. Mr. Mr. Leood. Yes. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 7:45:56Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Estus.
▶ 7:45:58Mr. Estus. Yes. Mr. Smucker.
▶ 7:46:03Mr. Hearn.
▶ 7:46:05Mr. Hearn. Yes. Mrs. Miller.
▶ 7:46:08Mrs. Miller. Yes. Dr. Murphy.
▶ 7:46:12Dr. Murphy. Yes. Miss C. M. Mr. Kustoff.
▶ 7:46:16Mr. Kustoff. Yes. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Yes. Mr. Stwie.
▶ 7:46:22Mr. Stwie. Yes. Miss Tenny.
▶ 7:46:25Miss Tenny. Yes. Mrs. Fishbach.
▶ 7:46:28Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore.
▶ 7:46:31Mr. Moore. Yes. Miss Vanine. Miss Vanine. Yes. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. Yes. Miss Maliaakus. Miss Maliaakus. Yes. Mr. Kerry. Yes. Mr. Kerry. Yes. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 7:46:46Mr. Yakam. Yes. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 7:46:53Mr. Bean. Yes. Mr. Moran.
▶ 7:46:56Mr. Moran. Yes. Mr. Neil. Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogit. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 7:47:11Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis.
▶ 7:47:14Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su Miss Su Yes. Miss Delben. Mr. Alben. Yes. Miss Chu.
▶ 7:47:27Miss Chu. Yes. Miss Moore.
▶ 7:47:29Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Bole.
▶ 7:47:32Mr. Bole. Yes. Mr. Byer.
▶ 7:47:35Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 7:47:41Mr. Schneider.
▶ 7:47:43Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Panetta. Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horseford. Mr. Horsford. Yes. Miss Plask. Miss Plask. Yes. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 7:48:06Mr. Schwikert.
▶ 7:48:08Mr. Schwikert. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Miller, Miss Sanchez, Mr. Evans, Mr. Swazy, Chairman Smith,
▶ 7:48:28Chairman Smith. Yes.
▶ 7:48:52The the clerk the clerk will report the
▶ 7:48:55Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 40 and the nos are zero. There being 40 yeses and zero nos, the motion is agreed to and HR2716 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental, additional, dissenting, or minority views.
▶ 7:49:23With that, the House will stand recess to go vote and we will reconvene after at the conclusion of the votes on the House More
▶ 8:30:59We'll reconvene. Our next order of business is HR4993, the Joe Fandra Access to Home Infusion Act of 2025. Healthcare innovation is rapidly advancing to improve care delivery for patients living with chronic conditions. For example, administering medications through at-home infusion gives seniors the freedom to receive the treatment they need in an environment that is more convenient and comfortable.
▶ 8:31:30Unfortunately, Medicare currently does not cover certain drug infusions in the home. This includes drug infusions that treat serious conditions affecting the heart, kidney, liver, among other organs. Instead, if Medicare beneficiaries need to receive these drugs, their only option for coverage is to travel to a doctor's office to receive the treatment.
▶ 8:31:53This bill provides fairness and more options for seniors by requiring Medicare to cover external infusion pumps and expanding coverage to more drugs infused through a pump. This bill's name honors the memory of an Army veteran from Representative Fitzpatrick District in Pennsylvania who was confined to a wheelchair limiting his ability to travel to his doctor's office for infusions. He could have benefited from the policies in this legislation.
▶ 8:32:23I want to thank Representative Fitzpatrick for identifying this problem and leading in a bipartisan effort um that fills the coverage gap. I'm pleased to recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Fitzpatrick, for his opening statement.
▶ 8:32:39Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. Mr. Chairman, legislation that authored HR 4993, the Joe Fandra Access to Home Infusion Act, is named in honor of a beloved hero in our hometown community in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, as well as his family, Joe Fandra. Mr. Mr. Chairman, this piece of legislation codifies a proposed rule to allow access to home infusion treatments to ensure these life-saving treatments are covered under Medicare benefits.
▶ 8:33:09I want to thank Joe's wife, Helen, for being an amazing and tireless advocate of this legislation, which honors Joe and his legacy. Mr. Mr. Chairman, Joe was a Warrington Bucks County, Pennsylvania resident, a proud Army veteran who was diagnosed with amaloidosis, a rare disease. And unfortunately, Joe succumbed to this disease in June of 2022. Joe and Helen drove two hours for his necessary infusion every 3 weeks.
▶ 8:33:37But B during the pandemic, Joe was able to get his infusions done at home. And when this funding ended, he was unable to continue to receive his infusions at home under Medicare. So they ended up having to drive to another state to get his infusions, creating even more of a burden of care. Unfortunately, Joe's situation is being experienced by too many Americans.
▶ 8:34:00And this is why I've introduced the Joe Fandra Access to Home Infusion Act to give all of our constituents across America the choice to receive their treatments at home if they so choose. I want to thank all of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle who have supported this bipartisan bill. I encourage swift passage for the families like the Fandras and others in our rare disease community. Uh Chairman Smith, again, thank you so much for considering this bill and I yield back.
▶ 8:34:27Thank you. I now recognize a ranking member from Massachusetts, Mr. Neil for
▶ 8:34:30Thank you, Chairman. Let me yield my time to Mr. Dogget.
▶ 8:34:35Thank you very much. Uh this uh modest bill uh I'm generally satisfied with uh now that uh it's been changed to ensure that consumers receive uh adequate information, full disclosure that infusion therapy will likely be more costly when they get it at home than in other settings. I do have some continuing concerns about the overall prices for this therapy.
▶ 8:34:59Yet, when you get right down to it, home infusion therapy is not the immediate healthc care action that Americans most need. The infusion we need is a little political courage for our Republican colleagues to stand up to the Trump regime on one illegal act after another. Some courage to tell him to stop coddling and pardoning health care criminals and instead provide meaningful law enforcement action against the fraudsters that American taxpayers deserve.
▶ 8:35:27some courage to tell him that health savings accounts are just a dodge to save him politically and further enrich his donors. Not a real health care plan, not a substitute for Obamacare a subtrafuge. After enacting the largest healthc care access cut in American history, Republicans are taking away the credits that make the coverage through the Affordable Care Act more affordable for millions.
▶ 8:35:51In just three weeks, many Americans will be paying enormous premium hikes for less protection and many unable to pay those soaring cost will lose access to a family physician. After ignoring this problem for months and ignoring it every day since they shut the government down, Republicans are now yelling fraud as an excuse to deny a mother access to care for her sick child.
▶ 8:36:17And while the Government Accountability Office of which which gave them a report of which they were so proud last year, the bad actor that the GAO identified wasn't a CA cancer patient or a diabetic. It was some insurance agents and brokers that have been swindling taxpayers. The Biden administration recognized that, too, and they suspended 850 brokers and agents last year due to suspected fraudulent activity. But how did the Trump handle it?
▶ 8:36:46Well, the Trump regime came in and just as they had pardoned one health care criminal after another, Trump reinstated all 850 suspended brokers while offering no real explanation or proof that the wrongdoing had ended. Trump is putting the criminals back on the street, taking the cops off.
▶ 8:37:05He reportedly fired 200 staff members responsible for detecting and preventing marketplace fraud and separately fired the Health and Human Services Inspector General, the taxpayers's watchdog who successfully saved 9.4 billion in one year. Punishing consumers trying to access a doctor, replacing Obamacare with nothing care, that's not a solution.
▶ 8:37:30Taxpayers deserve law enforcement action, not a permissive administration that trades MAGA loyalty for get out of jail free passes. As consumers face premium hikes upward of $1,000 or more per month, we need an immediate response to the health care crisis that Republicans have created. Proposals to divert affordable credits into health savings accounts fail to deliver much health. They do offer more tax shelters for the affluent.
▶ 8:37:59These triple advantaged accounts have become a lucrative tax shelter for wealthy Americans with individuals earning over a million dollars a year likely to make contributions. Despite health being in the name, HSAs are subject to few restrictions and have been promoted as a tool to pay for a vacation, a sauna, or even a boat. Meanwhile, HSAs are paired with high deductible plans that leave many with inadequate coverage and often leaves them stuck with surprise junk fees.
▶ 8:38:30A report from Senate Finance Democrats found that the same insurers which Trump and Republicans complain about on the ACA are the folks that profit from HSAs. 1if of active HSA accounts are owned by United Health. An analysis of United, Sigma, and Etna's financial disclosures suggested that those insurers made over 20 billion dollars combined in 2020 alone from managing HSAs, FSAs, and HAS.
▶ 8:38:59We need an extension of the Affordable Care Act credits now to mitigate the immense harm of this health crisis. And while I agree that our health care system is riddled with loopholes for which corrective action is needed, I urge colleagues to be infused with the courage to punish insurance broker wrongs instead of punishing people who are just trying to get access to their physician and life-saving medications. I yield back.
▶ 8:39:24The committee will now proceed to consideration of HR 4993, the Joeofandra Access to Home Infusion Act of 2025. Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute, which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point, and considered base text for purpose of amendment.
▶ 8:39:51I will now turn to Patrick Duma, health subcommittee staff director, to pro provide a technical description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until his
▶ 8:40:06Thank you, Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Neil. HR 4993, the Joe Fandra Access to Home Infusion Act of 2025 contains two sections. Section one provides for the short title of the bill. Section two amends section 1861 of the Social Security Act to allow certain external infusion pumps and associated drugs to be infused at home and reimbursed by Medicare.
▶ 8:40:30Additionally, the section requires the Secretary of Health and Human Services to notify patients of any difference in cost sharing requirements for choosing to elect drug delivery via home infusion. The amendment in the nature of a substitute renames the short title of the bill. This concludes the technical walkthrough and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.
▶ 8:40:50Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment and the nature of a substitute? Miss Moore.
▶ 8:40:58Thank you, Mr. chairman for recognizing me and I don't know if this is a question you can answer. Um it may be more appropriate for CMS but or or maybe Mr. Dogget would uh yield to a question if he's here. I'm I I've always been told that the hospital settings were the most expensive settings and yet we have a bill in front of us that says that if you choose an inhome therapy or infusion is going to cost more than the hospital setting.
▶ 8:41:28Can you explain to me why that
▶ 8:41:30I I think it will vary from place to place, but certainly many people in rural settings that take time to get folks out to them, that may be the best thing for them. I I'm not making a comment on what the best setting is. I just want to be sure that uh everyone gets full disclosure of what the cost variance is so they can decide for themselves. Is it worth having someone come to my home to provide this infusion which may be necessary for some people?
▶ 8:41:59Uh and then overall and and I'll address this in a moment. I'm very concerned that whether you get it in the hospital or you get it at home that the prices that the patient has to pay uh are so much higher than they are around the rest of the world. And I think we need to address the overall question of uh predatory practices by pharmaceutical manufacturers. And I and I I guess I would this question to you sir or to uh Mr. Dogget.
▶ 8:42:29This is this is a bill where if you a home infusion basically would not be available to you unless you had a lot of money to pay the separate cost. Is this a
▶ 8:42:44kind of a bifurcated? Miss Mo, if if I may to answer the question, uh, right now a lot of drugs that are infused um by a provider for for a patient, they're done in facility based settings like a doctor's office or a hospital and reimbursed under the outpatient perspective payment system under Medicare. And for those services, patients are uh capped at the amount of c cost sharing they would have to pay uh at an amount that varies each year.
▶ 8:43:14for next year, it's $1,700, If the patient elects to choose to receive this via uh home infusion, which they're not forced to do, but if they elect to do that, they don't have that cap on the cost sharing uh for them. They just have to pay 20% of what the service costs. So, in the case that there's a drug that 20% of the drug's cost is more than that amount, that's where they would pay more money.
▶ 8:43:40Will the will the gentleoman yield for further explanation? Yes.
▶ 8:43:44My understanding that is that if you get this infusion therapy in a hospital setting, whether it's in a hospital or hospital outpatient, there is a cap on what you have to pay. Uh that cap does not exist for uh home infusion. Gotcha. Well, I I would I thank you for that uh from you, Mr. Dog, and from you, sir, and I yield back.
▶ 8:44:10Are there additional technical questions to the amendment in the nature of a Seeing none, we will move to strike the last word. Um, Mr. Thompson.
▶ 8:44:27Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word as a lead sponsor of the connect act for health act to make health uh teleaalth permanent along with my friend on this committee Mr. Swikert no one has been a bigger advocate for patients to receive care at home or wherever is most convenient for them Mr.
▶ 8:44:50Chairman, over 160 of our colleagues in the House and over 60 of our colleagues in the Senate agree teleaalth permanence is needed to avoid another lapse in coverage as we've just gone through. However, Mr. Chairman, tellaalth uh continues to be elusive in this committee.
▶ 8:45:11It baffles me that we're marking up these bills that do nothing to address the pending crisis of insurance affordability Americans face in just three weeks because of Republican inaction. This year, congressional Republicans have shown Americans where their priorities are. It's not on affordability for middle class Americans.
▶ 8:45:35It's tax cuts for billionaire donors that add $4 trillion dollar to our national debt while cutting health care by a trillion dollars and kicking 15 million people off of their healthc care coverage. This is our first full committee action in nearly three months.
▶ 8:45:56Democrats have been fighting for workingclass Americans to be able to afford their health insurance while our Republican friends spent a month and a half on vacation to avoid talking about their devastating cuts to Now, we're finally back here as a full committee, and congressional Republicans won't even bring forward legislation to try and prevent millions of Americans seeing their insurance premiums double or triple
▶ 8:46:26in just the next three weeks. But when it comes to giving a tax cut to their billionaire donors, congressional Republicans move faster than anything on Earth to pass that legislation. Hardworking Americans are suffering and we can't even get a markup to avoid healthc care affordability cliff that the Republicans here in the House have created. This is shameful.
▶ 8:46:53It's hurting all of our constituents on both sides of the aisle and we need to do something about it and this committee is the place where it should start. Thank you and I yield back.
▶ 8:47:04Mr. Davis is recognized.
▶ 8:47:06Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move strike the last word. The Joe Fiandra Access to Home Infusion Act aims to expand Medicare coverage in a narrow way for home infusion This bill is centered around the use of a certain pump for infusion therapy with drug coverage as a secondary item to durable medical equipment.
▶ 8:47:34HR 4993 has a cost sharing provision that many seniors and disabled have concerns with affordability relative to health insurance.
▶ 8:47:47However, this legislation is a good first step but does not fit or fill all of Medicare gaps with respect to therapy infusion at Cost sharing is when the cost of the product and a service is divided between the patient and their health insurance.
▶ 8:48:11Under the Medicare Part B DME benefit, HR 4993 specifies that administering specific drugs be done by a home infusion therapy supplier.
▶ 8:48:27CMS has reported that this bill cost sharing is more than $70,000 when done in a home setting versus 24 in an outpatient setting.
▶ 8:48:43But given the fact that the big ugly bill cut $1.5 trillion dollars from Medicaid, Medicare, and purged 15 million people from accessing health care, this bill, this therapy at home does provide some relief for individuals who have difficulty accessing the care.
▶ 8:49:11And for those reasons, I support it and urge its passage and I yield back.
▶ 8:49:18Mr. Del Benny is recognized for 5
▶ 8:49:20Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. Um, here we are today to mark up a health bill that is largely bipartisan. The goal of this legislation is to increase access to care, which we should all be working to do. Unfortunately, this markup misses the moment we're currently in where millions of Americans are about to lose their health coverage. Today's markup doesn't consider any legislation that would roll back the trillion dollar cut that Republicans made to our health care system earlier this year.
▶ 8:49:50It also doesn't fix the looming affordability cliff that patients who get their coverage on the ACA marketplace are facing come January 1st. If we're going to talk about health care, we should talk about how to solve the massive affordability crisis that congressional Republicans and the Trump administration have created. Every day I'm hearing from constituents about what will happen if Congress doesn't extend the ACA tax credits.
▶ 8:50:20One of my constituents from both, his name is Mitch, gets his health care on the exchange. And because Republicans have refused to act on the premium tax [clears throat] credits, Mitch's monthly premiums will rise from $520 a month to a $420% And that's just his premiums.
▶ 8:50:47He needs surgery in the next few weeks that is is expected to cost him over $7,300. We have a solution to this crisis um that never should have existed in the first place. Actually, the crisis itself. We should extend this the tax credits to ensure Americans like Mitch don't have to decide between healthcare and housing or groceries. By the way, housing and grocery prices are also going up thanks to tariffs from uh Trump.
▶ 8:51:17If you want to talk about ways to improve the system, the health care system, let's talk. But don't hide behind that as an excuse to take health care away from millions of your We can work together to ensure that all Americans have access to quality and affordable health care. That should always be our goal. I yield back, Mr.
▶ 8:51:41Miss Chu is recognized for five minutes. I move to strike the last word. I strongly support efforts that expand access to care and give patients more flexibility in where and how they receive treatment. Therefore, I will be voting yes on this bill. But today's markup completely ignores the health care crisis barreling towards millions of Americans.
▶ 8:52:05That's because in just 22 days, 22 million Americans will see their Affordable Care Act premiums skyrocket because Republicans are letting the ACA premium tax credits expire. For families already stretched thin, that means hundreds or thousands of dollars more a year just to keep This is not an accident. This is an affordability crisis created by Republican inaction.
▶ 8:52:33Democrats have a clear, simple solution. Renew these tax credits. Republicans refuse, and Americans will suffer devastating consequences as a result. In my district alone, 61,000 people rely on these tax credits to afford coverage. A 60-year-old couple in my district making just over $80,000 a year would see their premium sore by 283%.
▶ 8:53:00And a couple living in Pasadena, California, making $85,000 a year would see their monthly premium jump from $665 to more than $2,000 a month. That is Plus, about 10 million people on the ACA marketplace are small business owners, self-employed workers, or employees of small firms.
▶ 8:53:25These premium hikes will crush small businesses that are already struggling, especially after the fallout from reckless tariffs and economic All of this comes just months after Republicans rammed through a law that rips over $1 trillion out of our health care system, guts Medicaid, weakens the Affordable Care Act, and kicks 15 million people off their insurance. all to fund tax cuts for billionaires.
▶ 8:53:55There are no plans to lower premiums, no plan to reduce out-of-pocket costs, and no plans to protect people with pre-existing conditions. And Republican solutions for health care, health savings accounts, which are not insurance. An HSA will not protect you from a $100,000 cancer diagnosis or a $20,000 hospital stay. But Republicans love HSAs because they work well for the wealthy.
▶ 8:54:23But for working families, they're a false promise that leaves people sicker, poorer, and more exposed. Democrats, on the other hand, want to keep premiums low, strengthen the ACA, and continue lowering drug prices. We capped insulin at $35. We allowed Medicare to negotiate drug prices. We expanded ACA subsidies so families could afford care.
▶ 8:54:51And we will not stop until every family can access the care they need without going broke. So, with only weeks left before the ACA tax credits expire, I urge my Republican colleagues to join Democrats and make addressing these devastating imminent premium hikes the top priority for this committee before it's too late. I yield back.
▶ 8:55:18Are there any other members wishing to strike the last word?
▶ 8:55:22Seeing none, are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a
▶ 8:55:25Mr. Mr Chairman, I have an amendment at the desk.
▶ 8:55:28Mr. Dogget.
▶ 8:55:29Mr. Chairman, I reserve a point of
▶ 8:55:31Point of order has been reserved. Clerk will distribute the amendment and ask and I ask the gentleman to suspend while the clerk distributes.
▶ 8:55:42Thank you very much all afternoon. Mr. Daga may proceed.
▶ 8:56:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At a time when Republicans are denying health care to literally millions of Americans through the action they have taken and the inaction they have taken in more recent weeks to try to resolve the crisis that they have created for so many families. It is particularly important that we focus on the costs that are being shifted to those families and even to families that have insurance.
▶ 8:56:32And my concern is that this bill without an amendment does not adequately address that problem. Uh it is true that under a Democratic Congress, we made very modest progress on prescription price gouging and a few Americans have benefited from what's been done. Uh significant improvements are needed in that legislation. But let me just give you one example relative to this bill. It goes to Ms. Moore's question also.
▶ 8:57:01According to CMS, one of the drugs that this bill will authorize for home infusion called, I think it's umpatro, the average out-ofpocket cost if you get that infusion in a hospital is $24,000. The average cost if it's in a home infusion is $70,000. That's why it's important that this legislation was modified so that the consumer knows that.
▶ 8:57:28But there's a bigger problem that is not dealt with and that is the cost of that drug which is over $400,000. These drugs used through infusion like so many drugs that are coming on the market go into the hundreds of thousands or even the millions of dollars. So I have an amendment that is very straightforward. Eligible drugs for home infusion should not cost Americans more than consumers in other wealthy countries are paying.
▶ 8:57:58And while this won't deliver the 1500% price reduction that Trump promised America in late August, an outlandish and of course impossible commitment, it will lower prices unlike his tariff taxes and his other failed economic policies.
▶ 8:58:14While he has failed to lower drug prices for a single American this year or in his first four years, despite much rhetoric to the contrary, Trump has announced some secretive, possibly unwritten handshake agreements that he has concerning future price reductions. And this amendment would just write them into law for these infused drugs.
▶ 8:58:36The amendment follows the very same deal that Trump claims he's achieved in these private agreements so that prices for home infusion therapies will cost no more here than they do in other wealthy countries and hopefully would set a precedent for doing that on other drugs. This is the same set of reference countries that Trump has pointed to for his optimal Medicaid pilot, the so-called generous model.
▶ 8:59:00Americans are paying about four times more for the same drugs, infusion or otherwise, as in other developed countries, with some therapies now being launched with price tags that are well over a million dollars. Uh, American taxpayers have been the angel investors in these drugs because they've underwritten the innovation with the research grants that the federal government provides.
▶ 8:59:25First by providing billions in these research grants and then by offering lengthy monopolies permitting manufacturers to charge sky-high prices as much as they can extract from the sick and dying. Meanwhile, big pharma spends most of its creative energies in extending these patent monopolies and dodging taxes, not on researching new cures. There isn't a single miracle drug that can cure all the problems associated with pharmaceutical price gouging.
▶ 8:59:54But we can take some narrow action today for infusion drugs. Let's require fair prices for home infusion drugs so more consumers can afford this essential care wherever they choose to get it. This should be a very easy amendment because we're taking the le the great leaders recommendation of most favored nation prices and we're just writing it into law so that on a home infusion drugs at least Americans don't get ripped off when they get something that is essential for their life.
▶ 9:00:25So call on Republicans to join us in supporting this amendment and move its adoption.
▶ 9:00:30Dr. Murphy is recognized for five
▶ 9:00:32Yeah, thank you. I am really just tickled pink that my colleague across the aisle is commending our our president. You guys love him so much. It's it's wonderful to hear hear how much you you really want to repeat what he's doing. Um that said, uh you know, I think that we all want to lower prices. Um the president has been in negotiations, which thank God we've actually had a president that does negotiations.
▶ 9:00:56Um and that willingly pharmaceutical companies have come into negotiating stream and willing to actually do direct uh from uh from pharmaceutical companies to patients themselves getting rid of these uh insurance companies. I wish we could have a bipartisan unison against the uh the bloat caused by the Obamacare and the vertical integration which is the primary driver of elevated costs in this country. People are talking about prices going up.
▶ 9:01:24prices are going up primarily to support insurance company profits. If you look at what's happened with um, and you look at insurance company profits, they've earned over $380 billion in profits since Obamacare is coming through. Now that the subsidies are expiring, guess whose stock prices are dropping? Insurance companies. So, I wish there would be against actually the real offenders here as to why things cost so much in this country rather than just supplanting and continuing poor policy.
▶ 9:01:52That said, in regards to this particular amendment, I think the market power and the negotiating power of the president, the administration is good. I don't think it should be legislatively mandated and would recommend a no vote.
▶ 9:02:08Thank you. Uh, who seeks recognition?
▶ 9:02:12Mr. Thompson is recognized for five
▶ 9:02:15Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to yield my time to Mr. Dogget. With all due respect to my good friend Dr. Murphy, uh you know, the pharmaceutical industry hasn't done too well either. Uh they've they've been far in ex excess of the insurance companies in their profit margins. Uh this doesn't have anything to do with insurance company enrichment. It doesn't have anything to do other than adopting the idea of our great leader.
▶ 9:02:43uh the idea that he's talked about a lot though we've never really seen any results other than his promise that he's a great dealmaker and has cut a secret handshake agreement with big pharma. Uh all we're doing is the very same thing that he says he did and that is we're applying this in statute so there's a guarantee uh that those who get infusion drugs don't have to pay more than in other countries.
▶ 9:03:09And I've never understood how Republicans or even some Democrats can defend American patients having to pay three, four more times, often for a drug that is actually manufactured here in the United States, but if it's sold in Ireland or in Germany or in France or England, they pay a fraction of the price that we do. Uh, and so President Trump says he's going to solve that problem.
▶ 9:03:36I don't think raising prices in other countries will mean lower prices for Americans, but his concept of most favored nation of looking at other comparable industrialized countries and using that as a guide to what the price should be is a way to provide some protection for Americans. Uh if he can actually do that and make it permanent for other drugs, I'm all for him.
▶ 9:04:00Uh but uh we need to go ahead and take this opportunity tonight to set the precedent that those with home infusion drugs that can go into the millions in cost that they will be treated fairly. They won't be the subject of predatory pricing. Uh that they will be able to get the drugs they need to survive at a price that is reasonable.
▶ 9:04:23that they don't get treated any worse than a citizen who's Dutch or French or German or English or Japanese that they get treated like Americans uh equally uh with prices that are if not uh inexpensive that are at least reasonable and not higher than that being charged in these other countries. That's all that this vote is about.
▶ 9:04:48It will give a clear up and down vote of whether you believe in defending predatory price gouging or you believe that consumers should be protected with the same tool that the president says he approves. I yield back.
▶ 9:05:02Gentleman yields. The question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Mr. Dogget. Cler call the role.
▶ 9:05:09Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 9:05:10Mr. Buchanan. No. Mr. Smith of Nebraska.
▶ 9:05:14Mr. Smith of Nebraska? No.
▶ 9:05:17Mr. Kelly Mr. Kelly No Mr. Schwiker Mr. Schwiker No Mr. Le Hood Mr. Mr. Le Hood No Mr. Arrington
▶ 9:05:28Mr. Arrington no Mr. Estus no
▶ 9:05:32Mr. Estus no Mr. Smucker Mr. Hearn
▶ 9:05:38Mr. Hearn no Mrs. Miller Mrs. Miller no Dr. Murphy Dr. Murphy no Mr. Mr.
▶ 9:05:48Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr. Fitzpatrick.
▶ 9:05:51Mr. Fitzpatrick. No. Mr. Stwie. No.
▶ 9:05:54Mr. Stwie. No. Miss. Tenny.
▶ 9:05:58Miss. Tenny. No. Mrs. Fishbach.
▶ 9:06:01Mrs. Fishbach. No. Mr. Moore.
▶ 9:06:04Mr. Moore. No. Miss. Van. Miss. Van. No. Mr. Fenstra.
▶ 9:06:10Mr. Fenstra. No. Miss Malotakus. Mr. Carrie.
▶ 9:06:17Mr. Carrie. No. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 9:06:20Mr. Yakam. No. Mr. Miller.
▶ 9:06:25Mr. Bean. No.
▶ 9:06:26Mr. Bean. No. Mr. Moran.
▶ 9:06:29Mr. Moran. No. Mr. Neil.
▶ 9:06:33Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget.
▶ 9:06:36Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson.
▶ 9:06:39Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 9:06:42Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis, yes. Miss Sanchez, Miss Su. Miss Su, yes. Miss Denny, yes. Miss Chu,
▶ 9:06:58Miss Chu, yes. Miss Moore, Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Bole.
▶ 9:07:05Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer.
▶ 9:07:09Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 9:07:12Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider. Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta. Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez. Mr. Horsford. Mr. Horsford. Yes. Miss Plask. Mr. Swazy. Mr. Smucker.
▶ 9:07:45Miss Malotakus. Miss Malotakus. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 9:07:59Mr. Gomez. Yes. Miss Plask. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 9:08:08Mr. Suazi. Yes. Chairman Smith. Chairman Smith. No. Clerk will report the vote.
▶ 9:08:44Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 17 and the nos are 24.
▶ 9:08:48There being 17 yeses and 24 nos, the amendment is not agreed to. Are there additional amendments? If there are no amendments, the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a
▶ 9:09:17Mr. Chairman, I move the committee favorably report HR 93493 as amended to the House of
▶ 9:09:25The question is on the motion to favorably report HR 4993 as amended to the House of Representatives. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 9:09:32Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 9:09:34Mr. Buchanan. Yes. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith [clears throat] of Nebraska. Yes. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. Yes. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Schwiker. Yes. Mr. Leood.
▶ 9:09:47Mr. Leood. Yes. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 9:09:50Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn.
▶ 9:09:59Mr. Hearn. Yes. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. Yes. Dr. Murphy.
▶ 9:10:18Mr. Kustoff.
▶ 9:10:20Mr. Kustoff. Yes. Mr. Fitzpatrick.
▶ 9:10:23Mr. Fitzpatrick. Yes. Mr. Stwie.
▶ 9:10:26Mr. Stwie. Yes. Miss Tenny. Miss. Tenny. Yes. Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore. Yes. Miss Vanine. Miss Vanine. Yes. Mr. Fenstra. Mr. Fenstra. Yes. Miss Maliotakus. Mr. Kerry. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 9:10:51Mr. Yakam. Yes. Mr. Miller.
▶ 9:10:56Mr. Bean.
▶ 9:10:58Mr. Bean. Yes. Mr. Moran.
▶ 9:11:00Mr. Moran. Yes, Mr. Neil. Mr. Neil. Yes, Mr. Dogit. Mr. Dogget. Yes, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes, Mr. Larson.
▶ 9:11:15Mr. Larson. Yes, Mr. Davis.
▶ 9:11:18Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes. Miss Delen.
▶ 9:11:28Miss Delen. Yes. Miss Chu. Miss Chu, yes. Miss Moore, Miss Moore, yes. Mr.
▶ 9:11:37Mr. Boille, yes. Mr. Byer,
▶ 9:11:40Mr. Byer, yes. Mr. Evans,
▶ 9:11:43Mr. Evans, yes. Mr. Schneider,
▶ 9:11:46Mr. Schneider, yes. Mr. Petta,
▶ 9:11:49Mr. Petta, yes. Mr. Gomez,
▶ 9:11:52Mr. Gomez, yes. Mr. Horford, Mr. Horford, yes, Miss Plask. Mr. Mr. Swazy. Mr. Swisy. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Dr. Murphy.
▶ 9:12:10Dr. Murphy. Yes.
▶ 9:12:14Miss Malotakus. Miss Malotakus. Yes. Mr. Kerry. M. Mr. Carrie. Yes. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez. Miss Plask.
▶ 9:12:36Chairman Smith.
▶ 9:12:38Chairman Smith. Yes.
▶ 9:12:54Clerk will report the vote. Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 41. The nos are zero.
▶ 9:13:06There being 41 yeses and zero nos, the motion is agreed to and HR4993, as amended, is ordered, favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to HR4993 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views. Our next order of business is HR6506, the Taxpayer Due Process Enhancement Act. This bill is an effort to preserve taxpayer rights in light of a recent Supreme Court decision.
▶ 9:13:37Under that decision, when the IRS imposes a levy on a taxpayer and then later abandons it, the tax court loses jurisdiction, even if the taxpayer still disputes whether the IRS improperly applied payments or offsets.
▶ 9:13:52What this means is that when a taxpayer finds themselves in a dispute with the IRS over unpaid taxes, the IRS can wipe their tax liability and avoid judicial review and yet still retain taxpayer funds by offsetting future The legislation before us sponsored by Representatives Moran and SU make critical reforms to restore the balance Congress intended.
▶ 9:14:16As a former county judge, Representative Moran brings a passion for protecting the rights of taxpayers, and that is reflected in this bill. Representative Moran's bill gives taxpayers a genuine, meaningful opportunity to challenge IRS levies and the [snorts] underlining liability before an independent court without fear that the IRS can use procedure maneuvers to circumvent taxpayer rights.
▶ 9:14:43I want to thank Representative Moran for his leadership and I urge my colleagues to support this bill and to ensure that taxpayers are afforded due process when confronting the IRS. I'm pleased to recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Moran, for an opening statement.
▶ 9:14:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Neil. Today, I urge my colleagues in the Ways and Means Committee to support the D taxpayer due process enhancement act, bipartisan legislation that enhances taxpayer rights by making needed corrections to the collections proceedings. I want to thank Congresswoman Terry Su for joining me once again and introducing legislation that makes common sense policy changes to the tax court. We are beginning to uh make a great team and this is another great piece of bipartisan legislation.
▶ 9:15:26The recent Supreme Court decision in commissioner versus Zuk exposed major inconsist inconsistencies in tax court procedure that disproportionately and negatively impact taxpayers and collection proceedings. This bill works to correct three main problem problematic areas of these types of disputes by protecting deadlines, safeguarding refunds, and ensuring judicial review. All for the benefit of the taxpayer. First, this bill pauses the refund clock during disputes.
▶ 9:15:57Under current law, if a taxpayer goes before the tax court to dispute a tax bill, the IRS believes it's owed, the taxpayer in many circumstances loses the ability to file for a refund of the dis disputed tax if the tax court proceeding lasts longer than 3 years and the taxpayer has not pursued all of their administrative remedies during the pendency of that tax court proceeding.
▶ 9:16:20As we all know, tax court proceedings can last well beyond three years, which often leaves taxpayers without any remedy if the IRS finds a way to make the tax court proceeding go away after the three-year mark like it did in Zuk. The way the law is currently written, taxpayers lose the ability to receive the tax refund they deserve, even if the court agrees that they do not owe the disputed amount the IRS is requesting.
▶ 9:16:45That is not a just result and we do not want procedural technicalities to lead to unjust rulings against the taxpayer in disputes with the IRS. Second, this bill stops the IRS from taking refunds to pay off disputed debts without the consent of the taxpayer.
▶ 9:17:01For years, the IRS has been allowed to quietly credit overp payments towards disputed debts, oftentimes causing the original dispute to end before reaching a fair resolution because the debt has been zeroed out and tax court jurisdiction is lost on the original dispute. Often times, this happens as it did in the Zuck case once trial before the tax court is imminent and the IRS comes to a realization that it will not be successful.
▶ 9:17:28Under this bill though, the taxpayer is protected from this outcome and would have to provide consent for future overpayments to be credited toward the original disputed debt if they are in collections proceedings before the tax court. This issue is the core matter addressed by this bill and has long been overlooked by Congress until now. Third, and finally, this bill expands access for the tax court to make sure it maintains its jurisdiction over the case and the underlying liability, even if the IRS abandons the case.
▶ 9:17:59This ensures proper judicial review of the taxpayers's case, regardless of whether the IRS decides to pursue collection efforts. The Taxpayer Due Process Enhancement Act is essential legislation that defends the rights of taxpayers. At its core, it advances a simple principle. No taxpayer should lose their rights simply because they choose to pursue those rights in tax court. And procedural gamesmanship by the IRS should not be supported in legislation.
▶ 9:18:27This bill restores due process, guarantees procedural fairness, and ensures that taxpayers can fully exercise the rights Congress has granted to them. A tax system, even an efficient one, must be a just one. When ordinary taxpayers challenge the government, the rules of the road should not be stacked against them. And this bill ensures that they are not.
▶ 9:18:49Today, I urge my colleagues, all of them, to support the Taxpayer Due Process Enhancement Act and to join me in re reaffirming our commitment to transparency, accountability, and a taxpayer friendly, judicially appropriate tax administrative process. Thank you, and I yield back.
▶ 9:19:06I now recognize the ranking member.
▶ 9:19:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me uh yield my time to the distinguished gentle lady from Alabama and ranking member of the oversight subcommittee, Miss Su.
▶ 9:19:16Thank you, Ranking Member Neil. I am proud to be the lead democratic co-sponsor of HR6506, the taxpayer due process enhancement act with our colleague, Mr. Moran. I want to thank the gentleman from Texas for his leadership on this bill. This bill is a is a common sense approach to strengthen taxpayers rights when the IRS uses a levy to collect unpaid taxes.
▶ 9:19:42This bipartisan bill makes technical fixes to the tax court's jurisdiction in cases involving levies. In the IRS Restructuring and Reform Act of 1998, section 6330 was added to give taxpayers due process and an opportunity for review of IRS collection cases involving levies.
▶ 9:20:05Prior to this section, taxpayers could not contest a levy before the IRS seized their property, which was abusive and unfair. However, a recent US Supreme Court case has highlighted the need to revisit this section. In this case, a taxpayer paid estimated taxes that were applied to her ex-husband's account instead of hers. The IRS then proceeded to levy her property for the unpaid taxes.
▶ 9:20:34She challenged this action, but the IRS sustained the levy. She then filed an appeal a petition in the tax court. However, while the case was pending, the IRS over offset her later year refunds against the unpaid taxes until her balance was zero. At that point, the IRS sought to dismiss the case and won. The case was then appealed to the third circuit in the United States Supreme Court.
▶ 9:21:00The court held that the current statute limits the tax court's jurisdiction to only reviewing those that have leveies that are in proceed. Since there was no longer a levy, she lost her ability to argue about the underlining taxes. Worse, she also lost her lateryear refunds because of the statute of limitations had expired. At every step of the process, the system failed this taxpayer. Our bill fixes these problems.
▶ 9:21:30First, while disputing a levy case in tax court, our bill tolls the statute of limitations for filing refund claims. Second, while the case is pending, the IRS is prohibited from using later later year refunds to offset the taxpayers's liability without the individual's consent. Finally, this bill clarifies and expands the tax court's jurisdiction in these cases.
▶ 9:21:55Under the bill, the tax court would have jurisdiction over the levy and the underlining tax liability. It also would allow the tax court to retain jurisdiction even if the IRS abandons the levy. Once again, I would like to thank our colleague, Mr. Moran, for leading this effort with me. We must work together to ensure that the IRS does not abuse its levy authority and that taxpayer rights are clearly defined and protected. I urge my colleagues to vote yes on this bill. And I yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 9:22:26Thank you. The committee will now proceed to consideration of HR6506, the Taxpayer Due Process Enhancement Act. Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point and considered base text for purpose of amendment.
▶ 9:22:51I will now turn to Tom Bartold, chief of staff for the joint committee on taxation to provide a technical description of the amendment and the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his presentation. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. The members have before them two joint committee documents. JCX48, which describes the underlying legislation, and the green sheet, JCX-51, which describes the chairman a chairman's amendment, the nature of a substitute.
▶ 9:23:20The chairman's amendment, the nature of substitute, makes three substantive changes that affect taxpayers who have requested a collection due process hearing before the IRS's independent office of appeals. First, it establishes that when a taxpayer files a tax court petition to contest a collection due process hearing determination as part of a further appeal, the tax court acquires jurisdiction over the determination uh as under as is the case under present law, but also acquires jurisdiction
▶ 9:23:50over the tax liability amount. This provision abregates the Supreme Court's ruling of uh earlier this spring in Commissioner versus Zuk. In addition, the chairman's amendment, the nature of a substitute, makes two uh important procedural changes. It suspends the normal period of limitations by which a taxpayer can file a claim uh for credit or refund of taxes paid.
▶ 9:24:14The suspension lasts from the time the taxpayer requests the collection due process hearing to the conclusion of that hearing and any additional appeals. Also, the uh chairman's amendment prohibits the IRS from crediting overpayments against a properly filed disputed liability during the period again from the time the taxpayer requests the collection due process hearing to the conclusion of that hearing and any and all uh appeals.
▶ 9:24:44Uh the chairman's amendment also corrects some clerical errors in the underlying legislation. This provision with respect to tax court jurisdiction would be effective on the date of enactment uh with respect to the suspension of the period of limitations and the prohibition on crediting overp payments. The provisions will be effective for any such period ending after the data uh date of enactment.
▶ 9:25:11Uh the staff of the joint committee has estimated that this would have a revenue effect uh with a loss of approximately $1 million over the budget period fiscal years 2026 through 2020 2035. Uh that concludes my description. Be happy to answer any additional questions that the members might have.
▶ 9:25:30Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment and the nature of a substitute?
▶ 9:25:36Seeing none, does anyone wish to strike the last word? Seeing none, are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a
▶ 9:25:49Seeing none, the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute. All those in favor signify by saying I.
▶ 9:25:57Those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a
▶ 9:26:08Mr. Chairman, I move the committee favorably report HR6506 as amended to the House of
▶ 9:26:15The questions on the motion to favorably report HR656 as amended to the House of Representatives. Clerk will call the
▶ 9:26:24Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 9:26:25Mr. Buchanan, yes. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Yes. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. Yes. Mr. Schwiker. Mr. Schwiker. Yes. Mr. Leood.
▶ 9:26:37Mr. Mr. Le Hood. Yes. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Estus. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn. Mr. Hearn. Yes. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. Yes. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. Yes. Mr. Kustoff.
▶ 9:27:05Mr. Fitzpatrick. Yes,
▶ 9:27:08Mr. Fitzpatrick. Yes, Mr. Stwie.
▶ 9:27:12Mr. Stwie. Yes, Miss Tenny.
▶ 9:27:20Mrs. Fishbach.
▶ 9:27:22Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore. Yes. Miss Vanine. Miss Vanine. Yes. Mr. Fenstra.
▶ 9:27:33Mr. Fenstra. Yes. Mr. Miss Malotakus.
▶ 9:27:39Miss Maliotakus. Yes. Mr. Kerry. Mr. Carrie. Yes. Mr. Yakam.
▶ 9:27:47Mr. Yakam. Yes. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 9:27:54Mr. Bean. Yes. Mr. Moran.
▶ 9:27:57Mr. Moran. Yes. Mr. Neil. Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Mr. Larson.
▶ 9:28:11Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. Yes. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes. Miss Delben. Miss. Delben. Yes. Miss Chu. Miss. Chu. Yes. Miss. Moore. Miss. Moore. Yes. Mr. Boille. Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer. Yes.
▶ 9:28:33Mr. Byer. Yes, Mr. Evans.
▶ 9:28:37Mr. Evans. Yes, Mr. Schneider, Mr. Schneider. Yes, Mr. Petta. Mr. Petta. Yes, Mr. Gomez.
▶ 9:28:46Mr. Gomez. Yes, Mr. Horseford.
▶ 9:28:49Mr. Horsford. Yes, Miss Plask. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 9:28:57Mr. Swazy. Yes. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 9:29:03Yes. Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Estus. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Kustoff.
▶ 9:29:15Mr. Kustoff. Yes. Miss Tenny. Miss Tenny. Yes. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez. Miss Plask.
▶ 9:29:34Chairman Smith.
▶ 9:29:35Yes. And how is Mr. Estus recorded?
▶ 9:29:38Chairman Smith. Yes. Mr. Estus is not
▶ 9:29:44Mr. Estus. Yes.
▶ 9:29:49Clerk will report the vote. Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 41, the nos are zero.
▶ 9:30:14There being 41 yeses and zero nos, the motion is agreed to in HR6506 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views. Our next order of business is the taxpayer notification and privacy act sponsored by representatives and Panetta.
▶ 9:30:41This bill reflects the recommendations of the National Taxpayer Advocate and strengthens one of the most basic principles of tax administration, fairness. Under this measure, the IRS would be required to provide notices to taxpayers before contacting third parties for information about them. Contacting third parties is is not simply a routine administrative step. This has the potential to affect livelihoods, reputations, and business relationships.
▶ 9:31:09However, under current practice, taxpayers are often told very little about what information the IRS intends to seek. And in many cases, they are not given a real opportunity to provide it themselves. If the government is seeking information, taxpayers have a right to know and should have a fair chance to respond before strangers are contacted. I want to thank Representative Stwie and Petta for their work on this bill.
▶ 9:31:35As the lead sponsor, Representative Stu Stewie has been a determined champion for taxpayer rights, pursuing aggressive oversight of the IRS to reign in that agency. I urge my colleagues to support this legislation. I'm pleased to recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Stwie, for his opening
▶ 9:31:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for the opportunity for me to speak today in support of HR6495, the Taxpayer Notification and Privacy Act. At its core, this is a simple due process idea. Before the IRS goes to your bank, your employer, your vendor, or another third party for information about you, when you can reasonably provide that information yourself, you should be told what they're looking for and given a fair chance to respond. Right now, taxpayers can receive a general third-party contact notice.
▶ 9:32:21But too often, those notices aren't specific enough to let a person meaningfully respond. And when the IRS reaches out to third parties, it can create real world consequences. reputational harm, confusion, or stress for families and small businesses, especially when the taxpayer could have simply produced the records directly. So, here's what this bill does. First, it tightens and modernizes the notice requirement in current law by adding a common sense specificity standard.
▶ 9:32:45When the information sought has not previously been requested from the taxpayer and could reasonably be provided by the taxpayer, the IRS must identify each specific item of information it intends to seek from third parties. Second, it makes the notice meaningful by giving the taxpayer a real window to respond.
▶ 9:33:02The bill requires the IRS to provide a reasonable opportunity in a period of not less than 45 days and allows additional time if the taxpayer requests it and shows reasonable cause so the taxpayer can respond, including by providing the requested information before the IRS contacts third parties. Third, and this is most important, the bill is not designed to let bad actors hide the ball. It includes clear exit exemptions so that this requirement does not tie the IRS's hands in the situation where speed and necessity matter.
▶ 9:33:31Specifically, the bill provides that this new requirement does not apply if the information is sought with respect to the collection of a tax liability or if the secretary determines the information is necessary notwithstanding whether the taxpayer could provide it or whether it was previously requested. Mr. Chairman, this legislation is about a building a healthier relationship between taxpayers and their government. One that respects privacy and due process while still ensuring the IRS can do its job. For law-abiding Americans, compliance is already complicated enough.
▶ 9:33:58The least we can do is ensure that when the IRS intends to go outside the taxpayer to gather information the taxpayer can provide, the taxpayer gets clarity what exactly is being sought and a fair chance to respond. This is a bipartisan effort and I'm honored to work with Congressman Panetta because protecting taxpayers and improving procedural fairness should not be partisan. This committee has a long history of advancing reforms that makes tax administration work better for the people that we serve. This bill fits squarely in that tradition, practical, targeted, and rooted in basic fairness.
▶ 9:34:28I urge my colleagues to support the Taxpayer Notification and Privacy Act, and I yield back.
▶ 9:34:32I now recognize the ranking member.
▶ 9:34:34Thank you. Let me yield my time to the co-author of this legislation, the gentleman from California, Mr. Mr.
▶ 9:34:40Thank you, Ranking Member Neil. Thank you to the chairman and of course, thank you for the leadership of Representative Stwie. And I'm proud to be a co-lead of the Taxpayer Notification and Privacy Act. It's common sense, straightforward legislation that would really safeguard our trust in our government by ensuring that the IRS respects the privacy and dignity of every taxpayer when collecting needed information.
▶ 9:35:05Under the current law, the IRS must notify taxpayers before reaching out to third parties like banks, employers, and even neighbors to gather information. But these notices, unfortunately, are often vague. They don't specify what exact details are sought, and they don't give taxpayers any chance, any real chance to provide prior explanation to the IRS. Now, the N national taxpayer advocate, as you mentioned, Mr.
▶ 9:35:31chairman has warned that the current generic approach falls short and leaves honest Americans blindsided and their reputations at risk. In tight-knit communities, any type of notice from the IRS can chill business dealings and yes, even damage livelihoods. The Taxpayer Notification and Privacy Act would change that.
▶ 9:35:51It implements the National Taxpayer Advocates recommendation so that notices are tailored in that the IRS clearly states what it needs, who it needs it from, and when it needs the information by granting taxpayers a full 45 days to do so. And this bill would empower families and businesses to resolve issues privately, protecting their good names and relationships with local banks and vendors.
▶ 9:36:18Our legislation also includes certain exceptions for circumstances where the information is deter determined to be necessary or when the information is sought specifically to collect tax liability. This bill would strike a balance between allowing taxpayers to resolve issues privately and ensuring that these notices cannot be used to avoid taxes. Ultimately, Mr.
▶ 9:36:42Chairman, taxpayers who have followed the law shouldn't fear the IRS soliciting sensitive data behind their backs. They deserve transparency and they deserve choice. By reducing unnecessary third party probes, we save resources and we protect taxpayers. Once again, I want to thank Mr. Stwie for his leadership on this and I thank you, chairman, for bringing this bill forward and I urge my colleagues to vote yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 9:37:09Thank you. The committee will now proceed to consideration of HR6495, the Taxpayer Notification and Privacy Act. Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute, which was distributed in advance along with a green sheet explaining it. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point, and considered base text for purpose of amendment.
▶ 9:37:34I will now turn to Tom Bartold, chief of staff for the joint committee on taxation to provide a technical description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his presentation.
▶ 9:37:48Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. The members of the committee have before them two joint committee documents, JCX 46, which describes the underlying legislation, and the green sheet JCX49-25 that describes the chairman's amendment, the nature of a substitute. Under present law, if as part of an audit, the IRS determines that it needs to seek information from a third part party with respect to the taxpayers's return, the IRS must notify taxpayers that it is seeking information.
▶ 9:38:16The chairman's amendment, the nature of a substitute, modifies the notification requirements of present law to require that if the information sought from the third party, is related to determining the taxpayers's tax liability, the notification must identify each specific item of information the IRS plans to request from various third parties.
▶ 9:38:37Um while this is the general rule as was noted, specificity is not required if the secretary determines uh that the information sought from the third party is uh uh ne uh necessary notwithstanding whether the taxpayer could independently provide such information. The amendment uh also corrects some clerical errors in the underlying legislation.
▶ 9:38:59This provision would be effective for notice uh for notices required to be provided uh beginning 12 months after the date of enactment. Uh and the joint committee staff has estimated this would have a negligible revenue effect for the budget period fiscal years 2026 through 2035. That describes my uh uh description of the legislation. I'd be happy to answer any questions that the members might
▶ 9:39:24Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment in the nature of a substitute? Seeing none, we will move to strike the last word. Does any member wish to strike the last word? Seeing none, we'll move to amendments. Are there any amendments to the amendment in the nature of a substitute? Seeing none, the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute.
▶ 9:39:53All those in favor signify by saying I. I. I.
▶ 9:39:56Those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a
▶ 9:40:06Mr. Chairman, I move the committee favorably reports HR6495 as amended to the House of
▶ 9:40:14The question is on the motion to favorably favorably report HR6495 as amended to the House of Representatives. The clerk will call the role. Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 9:40:23yes. Mr. Buchanan, yes. Mr. Smith of Nebraska, Mr. Smith of Nebraska, yes. Mr. Kelly, Mr. Kelly, yes. Mr. Schwiker, Mr. Schwiker, yes. Mr. Leood, Mr. Le Hood, yes, Mr. Arrington. Mr. Estus.
▶ 9:40:44Mr. Estus. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn.
▶ 9:40:51Mr. Mr. Hearn. Yes. Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. Yes. Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. Yes. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff. Yes. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Yes. Mr. Stwie. Mr. Stwie. Yes. Miss. Tenny. Miss. Tenny. Yes. Miss. Fishbach. Miss. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore. Yes. Miss. Van.
▶ 9:41:22Miss Vanine, yes. Mr. Fenstra, yes.
▶ 9:41:26Mr. Fenstra, yes. Miss Malotakus. Miss Malotakus, yes. Mr. Kerry,
▶ 9:41:32Mr. Kerry, yes. Mr. Yakam,
▶ 9:41:35Mr. Yakam, yes. Mr. Miller. Mr. Bean.
▶ 9:41:41Mr. Bean. Yes. Mr. Moran.
▶ 9:41:43Yes. Right behind you.
▶ 9:41:45Mr. Moran. Yes.
▶ 9:41:47Mr. Neil.
▶ 9:41:49Mr. Neil. Yes, Mr. Dogget. Mr. Dogget. Yes, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson. Yes, Mr. Larson.
▶ 9:41:59Mr. Larson. Yes, Mr. Davis. Yes, M. Mr. Davis. Yes, Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. Yes. Miss Delen,
▶ 9:42:13Miss Albennet. Yes. Miss Chu,
▶ 9:42:16Miss Chu, yes, Miss Moore. Miss Moore. Yes. Mr. Boille. Hi.
▶ 9:42:23Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer. Hi.
▶ 9:42:26Mr. Byer. Yes. Mr. Evans.
▶ 9:42:30Mr. Evans. Yes. Mr. Schneider.
▶ 9:42:33Mr. Schneider. Yes. Mr. Petta.
▶ 9:42:35Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 9:42:39Mr. Gomez. Yes. Mr. Horsford.
▶ 9:42:42Mr. Horford. Yes. Miss Plask. Mr. Swazy.
▶ 9:42:48Yes. Mr. Swazy. Yes. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Miller. Miss Sanchez. Miss Plask. Chairman Smith.
▶ 9:43:12Chairman Smith. Yes. The clerk will report the vote.
▶ 9:43:23Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 41, the nos are zero.
▶ 9:43:26There being 41 yeses and zero nos, the motion is agreed to, and HR6495, as amended, is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to HR6495 and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views.
▶ 9:43:48Our final order of business is HR 4242, the innovative less lethal to deescalate tax modernization act. Law enforcement agencies are investing in advanced training and technology to reduce fatal encounters. And that includes less thanlethal alternatives.
▶ 9:44:08That's why the law should treat a less thanlethal device like a taser differently than a firearm and should not classify it or tax it under the firearms and ammunition excise tax. I appreciate the sponsor of this bill, Oversight Subcommittee Chairman Schweikert, for his long-standing leadership on this very issue, having previously championed similar legislation to fix this outdated aspect of our tax laws.
▶ 9:44:37I know he was previously able to show a lot of us the new innovative technologies in this space when we visited a Native American reservation in his district for a field hearing last year. I'd also note that this effort enjoys the support of of two of our committee colleagues on the other side of the aisle, Congressman Larson and also Congressman Bole, um who are both co-sponsors of this bipartisan legislation.
▶ 9:45:06Less than lethal technology can keep our community safer and we should take action to make it available to those who need it. I'm pleased to recognize a gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Schwikert, for an opening statement.
▶ 9:45:17Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. First I want to do the technical portion. Um the provision provides a process whereby manufacturers, dealers and porters of a device may request classification and inclusion on an annual list of exempt devices. Um but one of the reasons this bill is here is the some of the tax provision here on the excise tax has been around for hundred years.
▶ 9:45:45Um I have a fixation and a number of members here both on the left and the right. There is a technology revolution coming for law enforcement even whether it be federal or state that actually now no one needs to lose their life in a moment of um we had an incident in my district.
▶ 9:46:07Um it was almost a s trying someone who was having a mental episode was almost trying to commit suicide by cop. This type of device stopped that where in a normal situation charging someone a firearm would have been used. Um the technology is becoming remarkably good.
▶ 9:46:33We should actually be embracing, are we on the cusp of where technology actually deescalates violence and no one loses their life? And that's what this does. But there's a second portion, and this is the great sort of absurdity of how the law works a a company sells the this type of device with the cartridges to your local police department, your county, the federal government.
▶ 9:47:04They're taxexempt entities. They then get to do the paperwork to refund the excise tax that's been collected back to them. We're getting rid of the absurdity that is designed in this excise tax code because when it was designed, this type of technology did not exist. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back.
▶ 9:47:27Thank you. I now recognize a ranking
▶ 9:47:30Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 9:47:32Thank you, Chairman. Let me yield my time to Mr. Thompson.
▶ 9:47:36Thank you, uh, Ranking Member Neil. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comments of my friend, uh, Mr. Swikert. Uh although I think they touched on just one portion of what it is he's trying to do and I'm I'm not sure um I'm not sure that there's a lot of disagreement on what you talked about. It's the other things that I think have raised some concern with some folks. But like Mr.
▶ 9:48:01Swikard, I support the adoption of less lethal devices, including tasers, which can be used by law enforcement to reduce deadly engagement with civilians and be used by civilians as well uh to save uh lives. But uh this is especially true in rural areas such as the areas that I represent where backup for uh law enforcement can be 30 minutes away or more.
▶ 9:48:28And as chair of the gun violence prevention task force, um I have concerns. As the father of a deputy sheriff, I understand the value of better tasers. And so I have concerns in that regard uh as well.
▶ 9:48:44And I can also tell you that there are a lot of bad actors who have exploited loopholes in our laws that uh are used to devastate communities with products like ghost guns, shortbarreled rifles, and and there are others. Uh so what I don't understand and what nobody's been able to uh satisfactory explain are a couple things in this bill.
▶ 9:49:09Uh, law enforcement doesn't currently pay the excise tax on guns nor on tasers. So, how does eliminating the excise tax on tasers help make tasers more accessible to law enforcement when they don't pay the excise tax?
▶ 9:49:26Uh, I'm also told that the main proponent of this bill makes zero, none, no, nada, products regulated by the National Firearms Act, which is the statue that regulates especially dangerous devices such as machine guns, sawoff shotguns, shortbarreled rifles, and silencers.
▶ 9:49:48So, if the new taser isn't regul uh regulated under the National Firearms Act, then why uh do the proponents of this bill include section three, which will create a new low loophole in the National Firearms Act? Mr. Chairman, I I've been talking to proponents of innovative tasers and the gun violence prevention community for months.
▶ 9:50:10I can tell you that there's broad support for making tasers more accessible to law enforcement and also a lot of interest in addressing access issues in regard to the excise tax. But I just find it troubling that this bill would weaken the National Firearms Act under the oposes of supporting taser innovation when tasers aren't regulated under this section of the law.
▶ 9:50:38So, unless we can sort this out or unless uh some of the amendments that are being offered today are adopted, I'm going to have to be a no and urge the rest of the committee to be a no on this. And I yield back.
▶ 9:50:53Thank you. The committee will now proceed to consideration of HR 4242, the Innovate Less Lethal to Deescalate Tax Modernization Act. Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point. At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute, which was distributed in advance, along with a green sheet explaining it. Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point, and considered base text for the purpose of the amendment.
▶ 9:51:21I will now turn to Tom Bartal, chief of staff for the joint committee on taxation to provide a technical description of the amendment in the nature of a substitute with an emphasis on the changes made since introduction. I ask that members hold their questions until after his Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The members of the committee have before them two joint committee documents. JCX47, which describes the underlying legislation, and the green sheet JCX50-25, which describes the chairman's amendment, the nature of a substitute.
▶ 9:51:50Under present law imposes excise taxes of 10 and 11% on the sale by the manufacturer or importer of firearms and ammunition. The chairman's amendment in the nature of a substitute provides three exemptions from these excise taxes for certain devices and ammunition that the secretary certifies as meeting standards of non-lethality. Uh let me identify one uh group of devices as category one.
▶ 9:52:18These are less than lethal projectile devices by by name. uh and an important distinguishing aspect of them is that there is an exit velocity of uh muzzle velocity of the projectile of 500 ft per second or less.
▶ 9:52:35The second category, category two, are devices on what will be the secretary's most recent list of less than lethal projectile devices for which the projectile's exit velocity exceeds 500 ft per second.
▶ 9:52:51And then the third exemption in the chairman's a amendment nature of substitute are shells and cartridges that are designed to be non-lethal nor produce serious uh bodily harm uh designed for either category one devices or category uh two uh devices as certified by the secretary. The secretary must make a determination with respect to potential category one devices submitted by the manufacturer for uh for exemption within 90 days of submission.
▶ 9:53:21And the secretary must provide to this committee and to the Senate Committee on Finance an annual report listing those devices reviewed for certification for exemption under category 2 and the reasons for certification or the reasons for failure to certif uh to certify the amendment. The nature of a substitute also conforms the definition of firearm under the National Firearms Act to include category 1 and category 2 devices.
▶ 9:53:49This legislation would be effective for sales after the date of enactment. Regarding requests for certification, the secretary has 180 days after the date of enactment to promulgate procedures after which the 90-day requirement uh becomes effective. Uh the joint committee staff has estimated that this legislation would have a revenue loss of less than $500,000 over the budget period of fiscal years 2026 through 2035. That concludes my brief description.
▶ 9:54:19I'd be happy to answer any questions that the members might have.
▶ 9:54:22Thank you. Are there any technical questions about the amendment and the nature of a substitute? Mr. Dogget,
▶ 9:54:27Mr. Barthol, uh this is going to eliminate for some uh you said an excise tax of around 10 to 11%.
▶ 9:54:35Uh the excise tax of 10% is for pistols and revolvers and 11% is for uh longer weapons and ammunition. But the short answer is yes, sir. Are municipal police departments paying that excess tax
▶ 9:54:48Uh uh weapons that are acquired by uh state and local law enforcement authorities used for the uh exclusively uh by those uh by those personnel are exempt from tax.
▶ 9:55:01So a municipal police department wouldn't get any benefit from this bill.
▶ 9:55:05Uh no no direct benefits.
▶ 9:55:06How about sheriffs around the country? Again, local local law enforcement.
▶ 9:55:11state troopers, highway patrol that state on the state level, would they get any benefit from this?
▶ 9:55:17Exemp exempt, sir. Under under present law, this there shouldn't be any confusion that this bill some way benefits law enforcement because law enforcement doesn't pay the tax today. The only people that I guess would be covered would be those private individuals that want to have a taser or whatever other modification might be made here. The people that the taxpayers
▶ 9:55:41uh private uh private persons would potentially be uh exempt on devices that are deemed firearms under under pres uh under present law. They would now be exempted uh if they are a category one or a category 2 projectile device. Thank you very much.
▶ 9:55:59Additional technical questions, Mr. uh Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 9:56:06Um do I understand? Um so the excise tax is not paid by law enforcement, but it's often um done through a refund Um you know, so the paperwork and the documentation of that still exists.
▶ 9:56:23Uh that's correct, Mr. Schwikert. there can be uh uh paperwork. Uh there's a form from the alcohol to uh tobacco uh and trade bureau for exemptions uh certificate for use by state and local governments of uh of firearms.
▶ 9:56:39Okay. So, Mr. Bartle, so in some ways what we're doing is just removing some of the regulatory attachment burden.
▶ 9:56:46That could be one uh uh an additional effect of the legislation, sir.
▶ 9:56:49All right. Thank you, Mr. Bartle.
▶ 9:56:51Additional technical questions, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Barthold, do people refer to this bill, the Innovative Less uh, lethal to deescalate tax modernization act as the Taser Bill?
▶ 9:57:08I I have heard people refer to it as that. Yes, sir.
▶ 9:57:11Does HR4242, the Taser Bill, uh, use or define the word taser?
▶ 9:57:18Uh, no, it does not, sir. It it defines less than lethal projectile devices.
▶ 9:57:24Does HR4242 have any provisions related to local, state, or federal law enforcement?
▶ 9:57:32Uh not uh by direct uh naming in this uh in the statute.
▶ 9:57:36So they're not part of this bill.
▶ 9:57:38Not in the legislative language.
▶ 9:57:41Does the exemption exist under present
▶ 9:57:45Correct. So as you pointed out, it's already there. Uh, does HR4242 amend the National Firearms Act?
▶ 9:57:54Uh, yes it does. As uh as I noted, it conforms the definition of firearm under the National Firearms Act to include category 1 and category 2 uh less than lethal projectile devices.
▶ 9:58:07Does the National Firearms Act contain any reference to machine guns?
▶ 9:58:12Uh, yes it does, sir.
▶ 9:58:14Saw off shotguns?
▶ 9:58:15Uh, yes sir. Shortbarreled rifles?
▶ 9:58:18Yes, sir.
▶ 9:58:20Yes, sir.
▶ 9:58:21Uh, no, sir.
▶ 9:58:23So, to kind of put this all together, tasers are not regulated under the National Firearms Act, which is reserved for the most dangerous of uh devices. The bill uh does not reference or define tasers. The bill does not reference law enforcement. The bill purportedly benefits tasers and law enforcement, but tasers and law enforcement aren't referenced in the bill.
▶ 9:58:51And the bill amends a statute that doesn't regulate tasers. Is that fair?
▶ 9:59:00I believe that summarizes your questions, Mr. Thompson.
▶ 9:59:03Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 9:59:06Mr. Smith,
▶ 9:59:08yield my time to Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 9:59:10Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Smith and Mr. Smith. Mel, um, one thing I I and and forgive my ignorance on this. Um, if I have an item that has black powder, um, a tiny bit of grains, um, it falls into one of the parts of the discussion of National Firearms Act and therefore that's why it's subject to an excise tax.
▶ 9:59:36Uh uh a firearm is defined as uh essentially a projectile projectile is expelled by an explo explosion. The national firearms act provides that manufacturers uh or retailers of uh firearms pay a special occupation tax. The code provides an excise tax on the manufacturer or importer of a firearm.
▶ 10:00:03Mr. As far where I was going is the actual cartridge uh that's also has its own category.
▶ 10:00:10That is uh uh that is under the co under the code the 11% excise tax.
▶ 10:00:15So Mr. Bartull, if I had a tiny bit of black powder that pushed a piston that pushed a non-lethal dart because there's some black powder there. That would fall into the definition.
▶ 10:00:28Uh Mr. Schwher, I I don't know the answer uh to that. Um, I'm not sure how
▶ 10:00:34because I think that's actually why we're doing part of that and then part of that definition because there is something that pushes the piston and because it has black powder is right on that cusp of is it or is it not? So, all right. With that, I I yield back. Thank Thank you.
▶ 10:00:51Additional technical questions? Seeing none, we'll move to strike the last word. Mr. Dogget.
▶ 10:00:58Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. You know, schools, entertainment venues, shopping areas, places of worship should all be safe places. Uh they have too often become places of fear. Where parents once sent their children off with confidence, now many have real fear as to whether they will be subject to a mass shooting.
▶ 10:01:20I believe that uh Republicans have met this fear within action, usually talking about thoughts and prayers, but prioritizing loyalty to the gun lobby. Sharp moments of prayers uh are certainly called for, but they shouldn't be followed by long periods of inaction. Refusing to act, Republicans are really perpetuating this senseless cycle of bloodshed. Instead of at least some modest response to turn down the violence, this bill is a step backwards.
▶ 10:01:51Instead of meaningfully addressing gun violence, which has been rampant in our country, it opens the door to increased access to dangerous weapons under the guise of being quote less than lethal. With absolutely no mention of law enforcement anywhere in the text of this bill, its new definition of firearms would exempt the so-called less thanlethal devices from required background checks and tracing requirements.
▶ 10:02:17This would allow these devices to be purchased by those who would ordinarily be prohibited from possessing firearms such as convicted felons and domestic abusers. And we've already learned from the the answers to our questions that it absolutely offers zero benefit to any sheriff, any police officer, any highway patrol member. and for law enforcement uh committed to our public safety, I think this legislation would harm the safety of those law enforcement officers.
▶ 10:02:47Three years ago, the Department of Justice's criminal division, the Executive Office for US Attorneys, and experts at ATF all warned against this very kind of legislation. ATF was very clear. This bill would allow non-lethal weapons to be purchased by felons or dangerous individuals who would otherwise be denied.
▶ 10:03:08ATF even stated, quote, "These weapons could be used against law enforcement, security personnel, or the public, creating an increased risk of harm to public safety. They also would not be traceable if used in a crime. This bill does not guarantee safety for the public or our law enforcement officers. It just means more violence, more suffering, more families that are shattered by grief. The changes from last year's version of this bill are superficial.
▶ 10:03:39Gun violence prevention groups like Gfords and Every Town note that the definitions and the standards in this bill create a massive loophole and a blueprint for other manufacturers to design and sell devices that can function like lethal firearms.
▶ 10:03:55Additionally, I understand that these same groups concerned with preventing gun violence, the groups whose pleas for protection of our families and our children have been routinely ignored by Republicans, that these groups suggested some alternative, narrower language that would have addressed their concerns, but it was rejected and is not in this bill. There is also potential for these less thanlethal devices to be modified by buyers to become more dangerous with homemade alterations.
▶ 10:04:25These do-it-yourself firearms are untraceable, endangering Americans, even without further dangerous modifications, which this bill would encourage. The so-called less thanlethal weapons already pose real dangers. In my hometown of Austin, Texas, during protest in 2020, multiple individuals were shot with beanag rounds, a type of less than lethal weapon, and they've suffered lifelong injuries.
▶ 10:04:52A 20-year-old and a 16-year-old were both shot in the head, leaving them in critical condition and requiring multiple life-saving surgeries. Another individual was hit in the face with a beanag round that shattered the bones around his eye, nose, and jail, and jaw. He wasn't in jail. After five years of surgeries, he ultimately lost his eye through this less than lethal device. The risks to our community are not hypothetical.
▶ 10:05:20These weapons have left permanent injuries on many. Now, only yesterday we saw yet more gun violence in Kentucky. The total this year is 387 mass shootings in the United States and growing. We don't need another loophole masquerading as a reform. Today, the NRA again stands for no Republican action. They show no willingness to protect families. They want to create more loopholes, not more protection.
▶ 10:05:49I urge the rejection of this bill, and I yield
▶ 10:05:52Mr. Hearn.
▶ 10:05:55Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike a last word. I'm a proud co-sponsor of HR4242. This is a common sense proposal that that a proposal that addresses outdated regulations. This bill promotes the use of technology that reduces the need for lethal force. It has past time we modernized our tax code to encourage the adoption of safer technologies that work to keep our community safer. I urge all of my colleagues to support this good measure. I yield back.
▶ 10:06:27Mr. Davis.
▶ 10:06:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman. and I must strike the last word. As Americans face more and more mass shootings and gun violence, Republicans choose to weaken federal laws related to guns, making communities less safe.
▶ 10:06:49I stand with Brady, Gfords, Every Town, New Town Action Alliance, and Community Justice Action Fund to reject this dangerous bill. I reject the false justification for this bill that a tax break would allow police departments to buy tasers given that governments already are exempt from excise taxes.
▶ 10:07:20I reject the misleading framing of this bill to my office by its advocates who came by suggesting that a tax cut for tasers could have helped prevent horrific examples of lethal death of Illinoans by police when those advocates already knew that governments get the tax break.
▶ 10:07:47The bill simply seeks to dangerously weaken federal gun policies. This bill would create a loophole for access to firearms by prohibited It would allow these weapons to be converted into traditional firearms and it would encourage the explosion of dangerous devices.
▶ 10:08:14In contrast, Democrats want and I want common sense gun violence reduction measures like banning assault weapons as we've done in my home state of Illinois, expanding and strengthening background checks, and banning large capacity magazines and bump stocks. And there are steps we can take in this committee to reduce gun violence.
▶ 10:08:47due to a loophole, many assault type weapons evade federal all together because the tax code fails to define them as firearms. We only tax completed guns. Further, the federal gun tax remains the same as it was in 1919.
▶ 10:09:14The ammunition tax remains the same as it was during World War II when our gun violence crisis merits a more modern firearm tax. The Republican leadership solution is to weaken gun policies to put communities at greater risk for gun violence.
▶ 10:09:37I'm proud to lead a bill with Snyder, Moore, and Evans that would close the assault weapon loophole and create the first ever dedicated funding stream for gun violence prevention. Our bill would increase the federal excise tax on guns and ammunition by just half a percent to create guaranteed annual funding for gun violence prevention.
▶ 10:10:08Democrats want to enact positive actions to reduce gun violence. In contrast, this bill today, Republican bill, would weaken gun policies and put our communities at greater violence. I oppose it and yield
▶ 10:10:31Mr. Yakam.
▶ 10:10:34Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word. I'm also a proud co-sponsor of HR 4242. I've had uh law enforcement agencies from across this country travel to Washington DC, come meet with me and talk about how this bill would remove burdensome regulations for them. It would make it easier for our local law enforcement uh agencies to uh get the the things that they need to be able to do their jobs effectively.
▶ 10:10:59And when law enforcement says that this is a tool that they need and it would remove burdensome regulations, we should trust them. I urge my colleagues to vote yes. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 10:11:09Miss Chu. Oh,
▶ 10:11:12I move to strike the last word. On the evening of January 21st, 2023, family and friends gathered at a local dance studio in my hometown of Monterey Park, California. Celebrating Lunar New Year, they danced and enjoyed each other's company in a space they had come to know and love. Then their celebrations were violently interrupted when a gunman entered the studio and killed 11 of our neighbors, family members, and loved ones that were inside.
▶ 10:11:42It remains the deadliest mass shooting in Los Angeles County's history. In the years since, my community has navigated immense trauma and pain as they continue to heal. We've also come to find out more information on how the gunman was able to execute his plan. We learned that the shooter modified his semi-automatic pistol with a homemade suppressor.
▶ 10:12:07Ironically enough, Republicans on this committee just spearheaded the elimination of a century old excise tax on suppressors, making them easier to obtain. We also learned that ATF was able to find the gunman finally because of a very important element and that is the firearm did have a registration number.
▶ 10:12:32Finally, because the gunman was shot was was caught, the community was able to rest more easily. With this bill, instead of making our communities safer, Republicans are continuing to make them more dangerous. We've heard Republicans on this committee, say that this bill is intended to help law enforcement, protect themselves and others. But that's false.
▶ 10:12:58This bill would actually make it far easier for civilians, including those we know who should not have weapons at their disposal, to procure a less thanlethal weapon and then modify it into a violent weapon and endanger our communities, all while letting that weapon be untraceable. And there is no language in this bill to prohibit or punish such actions. This is not a bill that will make law enforcement safer.
▶ 10:13:29No, this bill will put law enforcement and our communities at greater risk of harm by vastly increasing access and weakening the traceability of dangerous weapons. We should be doing more to keep our communities safe from danger, not less. And that is why all the gun violence prevention organizations from Gfords to Brady to Every Town for Gun Safety are opposing this bill.
▶ 10:13:57And that is why I urge my colleagues to vote no on this
▶ 10:14:03Mr. Kustoff.
▶ 10:14:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word and I do thank you for holding today's markup. Mr. Chairman, this bill HR4242, it's bipartisan and it's also common sense and I'm convinced it's one that will support local law enforcement and help keep our communities safe. We all know that law enforcement officers across the country, state, local, and federal, play a vital role serving our communities across the nation.
▶ 10:14:34They keep our families safe. They keep bad actors off the street. They make us possible for us to live the American dream. Mr. Chairman, I'm a former United States Attorney for the Western District of Tennessee. And I had the opportunity to work with law enforcement at the federal, state, and local level, those men and women on the ground who put their lives on the line each and every day to protect all of us.
▶ 10:15:01I've seen firsthand how important it is that our law enforcement officers and agents have the support and the resources that they need in order to do their job. Emerging technology has led the development and adoption of new and more effective tools for law enforcement. These tools, Mr.
▶ 10:15:22chairman like the taser provide officers with important and less lethal alternatives to use in hazardous These less lethal uh alternatives have helped reduce injuries and limit fatal encounters in the field.
▶ 10:15:43Problem is is that federal statute has not kept up with new devices that are being And due to the outdated laws right now, law enforcement personnel face significant regulatory and financial hurdles when accessing certain tasers and innovative tools. There's unnecessary government red tape and that has real world consequences.
▶ 10:16:12Frankly, it limits law enforcement's ability to do their job. So, this bill, the Innovative, Lessle Lethal to Deescalate Tax Modernization Act, which I'm a co-sponsor of, it does make common sense reforms to ensure that these devices are accurately defined under the federal law.
▶ 10:16:35I'm convinced that this bill will improve public safety, it will support law enforcement, and it will keep our communities safe. I urge my colleagues to support this important bipartisan legislation. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back.
▶ 10:16:53Mr. Bole.
▶ 10:16:56Well, uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Move the strike the last word. Um, first, I just want to commend all of my colleagues uh, who have spoken before me. This has been a very high quality discussion. Um and for the the hundreds of millions we're watching on C-SPAN, no doubt, um I I hope and believe they actually have a higher opinion uh of this institution because what you've seen during the course of this is not the performance art that often goes viral, but a sincere
▶ 10:17:26highquality discussion really attempting to grapple uh with this issue and I agree with many of the points have been made again by members on both sides. I want to make um two points. The first is there are 16 Democratic co-sponsors of this bill of which I am one.
▶ 10:17:45You know, representing one of the largest cities in America, the city of Philadelphia, we have been impacted, as every community has been, but we have especially been impacted when it comes to the scourge of gun violence. Where I stand on those issues is is abundantly clear for anyone who takes a minute looking at my voting record throughout my career.
▶ 10:18:10One aspect of the much larger problem of gun violence in this country are these lethal interactions between law enforcement and citizens. So this is just one example actually an incident that did go viral. Many of you will have seen the video clip, though you may not remember it as it was a few years ago. There was a man in the middle of the street who was threatening uh his neighbors. He happened to have a knife, was wielding a knife.
▶ 10:18:41Police attempted to deescalate the situation. The man, however, stormed an officer. The officer shot and killed him. Now, that was a tragic situation for everyone involved. So, I am sincerely interested in any bill that could incentivize law enforcement to have a greater use of tasers because had the officer had a taser in that he could have reduced or eliminated the threat of
▶ 10:19:11being stabbed while at the same time not taking the person's life. So that is why I believe there are so many uh bipartisan co-sponsors of this bill again and that includes me. The second point I want to make is I understand and indeed share the concerns about unintended consequences um being created through this legislation.
▶ 10:19:37If there's one law I wish Congress could repeal, it's the law of unintended consequences. because too often we pass legislation around here that years and years later we find out people have figured out a loophole and there were unintended consequences. Unfortunately, that is the one law we seem to be unable to to repeal.
▶ 10:19:58So, as this bill moves forward, which it undoubtedly will, I I would encourage all of those the author and and all of those who were good people and and very well-meaning to work together to identify language that all gets us to where we want to be.
▶ 10:20:18incentivizing or making it easier for the use of tasers in place of guns uh but at the same time not create uh an unintended loophole. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 10:20:30Miss Malletakus.
▶ 10:20:33Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm proud to co-sponsor and support this legislation, Innovate Less Lethal to Deescalate Tax Modernization Act with Congressman Schwikert. Uh, this common sense legislation cuts outdated red tape and taxes to give our law enforcement officers the modern tools that they need to keep themselves and our communities safe. Currently, under federal law, less lethal devices like tasers are taxed and regulated as if they were traditional firearms.
▶ 10:21:04And these laws have not been updated to reflect these newer, safer technologies, leading to more government taxes, and delays, and providing the best and modern devices for our hardworking law enforcement officers and police departments.
▶ 10:21:21This legislation addresses this issue directly by ensuring that less thanlethal projectile devices are no longer taxes firearms while establishing clear criteria so that only devices designated for less lethal purposes qualified for this It also ensures that devices not meeting these standards remain regulated appropriately. This balanced approach modernizes the tax code without compromising public safety.
▶ 10:21:48In fact, as my colleague from the Democrat side just attested to, it improves public safety and it gives our law enforcement officers a additional tool in the toolbox. And I think it's incredibly important that we change this outdated tax treatment that has created unintended financial and administrative hurdles for our law enforcement agencies. The NYPD officers in my district work very hard to keep our communities safe.
▶ 10:22:16And they're often put in extremely dangerous situations where they need to make very quick decisions. And this legislation is supported by the Fraternal Order of Police and other national police organizations because it promotes innovation and reduces that regulatory and tax barrier to ensure that our police officers have the best possible technology available to avoid lethal use of force when possible.
▶ 10:22:46This legislation helps our police, it helps our communities, and it will keep people safe. Um, and I I support it and I yield back. Thank you,
▶ 10:22:56Mr. Thompson.
▶ 10:22:59Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to strike the last word.
▶ 10:23:03It it it feels to me like everybody's talking past one another. There is no debate. There is no argument. There is no difference between anybody on this dis as to whether or not we want less lethal means by which law enforcement can protect us. Uh a lot of us would like less lethal means by which citizens can protect themselves.
▶ 10:23:34Nobody I don't believe anybody believes that law enforcement should be forced to pay excise tax when they buy these devices. We heard from Mr. Barthol that they don't now. Uh I I'm just not clear what it is that this bill is trying to do that isn't already there. unless this is dealing with something that's not yet in the bill or not yet before this committee.
▶ 10:24:04So, at best, this thing's poorly written if that's what it is they're they're trying to do. We should know what we're voting on. We should know what those the possibility of those unintended consequences might be because nobody wants to be confronted with a situation in our district where we've changed the uh National Firearms Act.
▶ 10:24:28It makes it easier for bad people to get any type of device that could be used to harm someone. be it a non-lethal taser or a sawoff shotgun, a machine gun, a shortbarreled rifle, or a silencer. That's not the intention of anyone. And it and it should it mostly shouldn't be. I think we need to know what it is that you're trying to do in this piece of legislation.
▶ 10:24:59And the idea that it's only to allow law enforcement to get uh non-lethal weapons without paying taxes, we know that's not the case. They already have that. They don't have to pay taxes on on uh on these uh devices. So, I I think that uh I think I think this bill needs a lot more work.
▶ 10:25:21And I yield the balance of my time to Mr. Dog. uh in search of some excuse to provide the facade on this bill that it's to help law enforcement. We've been told that law enforcement would have a regulatory burden.
▶ 10:25:35I want to ask you about that burden and whether in order to get a tax exemption here, they have to do anything different from fill out a one-page form that they might do on any other purchase that they make uh that they want exempt from a state sales tax or a federal excise tax. Uh this is really a totally phony argument, isn't
▶ 10:25:59Well, I you know, I don't know what law enforcement has to do. Mr. Barthol, uh spoke to it. He I don't know that he was sure what they have to do. But if that's the only purpose of the bill, it'd be real easy to amend it. We could amend it right now on the fly to say law enforcement doesn't have to pay any excise tax. They don't have to fill out any form to avoid the excise tax.
▶ 10:26:22And and I I also want to add, you know, there's there's a company that's behind uh this um this taser legislation. and they have a new device that they want to uh that they want to promote. And and I want to go on record to publicly say I know that company and it's a good company. Law enforcement uses their uh devices. My son who's a deputy sheriff uses their devices and he's u speaks very highly of them.
▶ 10:26:52But um they're doing a good job. They make a good device. This bill though is not good work to come out of this committee. we could do much better. We could clear up a lot of these questions. We could uh we could take some steps that would avoid those unintended consequences that my uh friend Mr. Bole talked about. I yield
▶ 10:27:16Does any other member wish to strike the last word? Seeing none, we'll move to amendments. Are there any amendments? Mr. Larson?
▶ 10:27:25Yes, sir.
▶ 10:27:27Thank you,
▶ 10:27:28Mr. Chairman. I reserve a point of order. A point of order has been reserved. Would Mr. Larson um suspend while the amendment is distributed?
▶ 10:27:50Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First and foremost, I want to thank Mr. Schwher for his uh uh work and I think as all of us have said up here there's there's no difference with anyone on this dis about the uh need that exists out there as we speak right now there's a vigil going on for
▶ 10:28:23the 13th anniversary of [snorts] what took place at Sandy Hook where 20 and six faculty members lost their Everybody knows the how serious and the gravity of of this is. Uh and Mr.
▶ 10:28:45Schwiker was, I think, looking to come up with a solution, not the solution, but a solution. And a solution that makes common sense and that, as many have indicated, that law enforcement clearly and certainly supports.
▶ 10:29:11But as you've also heard colleagues say it also raises a lot of concerns in the solution and the groups that need to be talking and again I want to complicate uh compliment uh Mr.
▶ 10:29:27Schwher because he brought those tried to bring those groups together to talk about what the solution should be in coming up with a remedy and in fairness they all want to see a remedy and I think believe that there could be a remedy out there but uh both Mr. Dogget uh and Mr.
▶ 10:29:55Thompson raised legitimate questions about the loophole and that is where the problem exists so that a well-intended idea with that is supported by everybody on the dis could come forward and receive the support it needs. Mr. Thompson just noted, well, the bill probably needs more work.
▶ 10:30:21And after talking to the that all have the same notion in mind, it seems that that loophole could be dealt with by eliminating section three of the bill. So if you see what this amendment proposes, it proposes to do just that.
▶ 10:30:49So that the because the loopho could result in legal sale of currently restricted classes of weapons such as fully automatic firearms, less than lethal devices that could then be converted into fully automatic firearms.
▶ 10:31:07Uh and as I said tonight, as I'm speaking, uh there's a vigil going on for the 20 children and six faculty members were lost in the state of Connecticut.
▶ 10:31:28we've taken important steps to straighten uh to strengthen background checks and keep guns out of the hands of When we passed Chris Murphy's law and bipartisan safer communities act three years ago, that was the first piece of a piece of gun violence legislation passed in three I think there's an opportunity to build on that. That's why I'm introducing this amendment to strike section three of this bill.
▶ 10:31:57This amendment would close the loophole and prevent the unregulated sale of potentially dangerous devices without background checks to potentially dangerous people. I urge your support and yield back.
▶ 10:32:12Any discussion on the amendment?
▶ 10:32:15Mr. Thompson.
▶ 10:32:18I'd like to thank uh Mr. Larson for his amendment. It seems to me that that would clear up a major concern uh with with the bill and uh would prevent uh this loophole in the National Firearms Act from creating a situation where people who uh are a danger to themselves or others would have access to uh firearms or
▶ 10:32:48firearm type equipment. uh that could actually do uh very serious harm uh and devastate our communities. Uh if that amendment I would urge us to uh to vote for and to pass that amendment and if that amendment were to pass, I would most certainly uh vote for the bill. Yield back.
▶ 10:33:10Further discussion? Seeing none, the question is on agreeing to the amendment offered by Mr. Larson. All those in uh the clerk will call the
▶ 10:33:21Mr. Buchanan,
▶ 10:33:23Mr. Buchanan, no. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska, no. Mr. Kelly,
▶ 10:33:30Mr. Kelly, no. Mr. Schwiker, Mr. Schwiker, no. Mr. Le Hood. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Estus. Mr. Estus. No, Mr. Smucker. Mr. Hearn
▶ 10:33:50Mr. Hearn. No Mrs. Miller. Mrs. Miller. No Dr. Murphy. Dr. Murphy. No. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff. No. Mr. Mr. Stwie. No.
▶ 10:34:07Mr. Stwie. No. Miss Tenny. Miss. Tenny. No. Mrs. Fishbach. Mr. Moore, no.
▶ 10:34:17Mr. Moore, no. Miss Vanine,
▶ 10:34:20Miss Vanine, no. Mr. Fenstra,
▶ 10:34:23Mr. Fenstra, no. Miss Malotakus. Miss Malotakus, no Mr. Kerry.
▶ 10:34:30Mr. Kerry, no. Mr. Yakam,
▶ 10:34:33Mr. Yakam, no. Mr. Miller,
▶ 10:34:36Mr. Miller, no. Mr. Bean,
▶ 10:34:40Mr. Bean, no. Mr. Moran,
▶ 10:34:43Mr. Mr. Moran, no. Mr. Neil,
▶ 10:34:47Mr. Neil, yes. Mr. Dogget, Mr. Dogget, yes. Mr. Thompson,
▶ 10:34:54Mr. Thompson, yes. Mr. Larson,
▶ 10:34:56Mr. Larson, yes. Mr. Davis, Mr. Davis, yes, Miss Sanchez. Miss Su, Miss Su, yes. Miss Delben, Miss Albenn, yes, Miss Chu, Miss Chu, yes. Miss
▶ 10:35:16Miss Moore, yes. Mr. Boille,
▶ 10:35:18Mr. Boille, yes. Mr. Byer,
▶ 10:35:22Mr. Byer, yes. M. Mr. Evans,
▶ 10:35:25Mr. Evans, yes. Mr. Schneider,
▶ 10:35:28Mr. Schneider, yes. Mr. Petta,
▶ 10:35:31Mr. Petta, yes. Mr. Gomez, Miss Mr. Gomez, yes. Mr. Horsford,
▶ 10:35:38Mr. Horford, yes. Miss Plask. Mr. Swazy
▶ 10:35:45Mr. Swisy. Yes.
▶ 10:35:50Mr. Le Hood.
▶ 10:35:53Mr. Le Hood. No. Mr. Arrington. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mrs. Fishbach. Mrs. Fishbach, no. Miss Sanchez. Miss Plask.
▶ 10:36:20Chairman Smith.
▶ 10:36:21Chairman Smith. No. Clerk will report the vote.
▶ 10:36:50Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 17 and the nos are 23.
▶ 10:36:54There being 17 yeses and 23 nos, the amendment is not agreed to. Are there additional amendments? Seeing none, the question is on the adoption of the amendment in the nature of a substitute. All those in favor signify by saying I.
▶ 10:37:09Those opposed say no.
▶ 10:37:11In the opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the amendment in the nature of a substitute is agreed to. I will now recognize Mr. Buchanan for the purpose of offering a motion.
▶ 10:37:18Mr. Chairman, I move the committee favorably report HR 4242 as amended to the House of
▶ 10:37:27The question is on the motion to favorably report HR4242 as amended to the House of Representatives. The clerk will call the role.
▶ 10:37:34Mr. Mr. Buchanan.
▶ 10:37:36Mr. Buchanan. Yes. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Mr. Smith of Nebraska. Yes. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. Yes. Mr. Schwiker.
▶ 10:37:47Mr. Schwiker. Yes. Mr. Leood.
▶ 10:37:50Mr. Leood.
▶ 10:37:51Yes. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 10:37:56Mr. Estus.
▶ 10:37:58Mr. Estus. Yes. Mr. Smucker. Mr. Mr. Hearn.
▶ 10:38:05Mr. Hearn. Yes. Mrs. Miller.
▶ 10:38:08Mrs. Miller. Yes. Dr. Murphy.
▶ 10:38:12Dr. Murphy. Yes. Mr. Kustoff.
▶ 10:38:16Mr. Kustoff. Yes. Mr. Fitzpatrick.
▶ 10:38:22Mr. Stwie.
▶ 10:38:24Mr. Stwie. Yes. Miss. Tenny.
▶ 10:38:26Miss. Tenny. Yes. Mrs. Fishbach.
▶ 10:38:29Mrs. Fishbach. Yes. Mr. Moore.
▶ 10:38:32Mr. Moore. Yes, Miss Vanine.
▶ 10:38:36Miss Vanine. Yes, Mr. Fenstra.
▶ 10:38:39Mr. Fenstra. Yes, Miss Malotakus.
▶ 10:38:42Miss Malotakus. Yes, Mr. Kerry.
▶ 10:38:45Mr. Kerry. Yes,
▶ 10:38:47Mr. Yakam.
▶ 10:38:50Mr. Yakam. Yes, Mr. Miller.
▶ 10:38:53Mr. Miller. Yes, Mr. Bean.
▶ 10:38:56Mr. Bean. Yes, Mr. Moran.
▶ 10:38:59Mr. Moran. Yes,
▶ 10:39:02Mr. Neil.
▶ 10:39:05Mr. Neil. Yes. Mr. Dogget.
▶ 10:39:17Mr. Neil. No.
▶ 10:39:20Mr. Dogit.
▶ 10:39:22Mr. Dogget. No. Mr. Thompson.
▶ 10:39:25Mr. Thompson. No. Mr. Larson.
▶ 10:39:28Mr. Larson. No. Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis. No. Miss Sanchez. Miss Su. Miss Su. No. Miss. Albenet. Miss. Albennet. No. Miss Chu.
▶ 10:39:43Miss Chu. No. Miss Moore.
▶ 10:39:48Miss Moore. No. Mr. Bole.
▶ 10:39:51Mr. Boille. Yes. Mr. Byer.
▶ 10:39:55Mr. Byer. No. Mr. Evans. No.
▶ 10:39:59Mr. Evans. No. Mr. Schneider. Mr. Schneider. No. Mr. Petta. M. Mr. Petta. Yes. Mr. Gomez.
▶ 10:40:09Mr. Gomez. No. Mr. Horseford.
▶ 10:40:13Mr. Horford. No. Miss Plask.
▶ 10:40:17Mr. Swazy.
▶ 10:40:22Mr. Swazy. No. Mr. Arrington.
▶ 10:40:27Mr. Arrington. Yes. Mr. Smucker, Mr. Fitzpatrick,
▶ 10:40:37Miss Sanchez, Miss Plask. Chairman Smith,
▶ 10:40:47Chairman Smith, yes.
▶ 10:40:51The clerk will report the vote. Mr. Chairman, the yeses are 26, the nos are 15.
▶ 10:41:20There being 26 yeses and 15 nos, the motion is agreed to and HR4242 as amended is ordered favorably reported to the House. Without objection, I ask that staff be authorized to make technical and conforming changes to and that members have two additional days to file with the committee clerk supplemental additional dissenting or minority views. There being no further business before the committee, the committee stands adjourned.