▶ 0:06:37The subcommittee on water, wildlife and fisheries will come to order. Good morning everyone. I want to welcome members, witnesses and our guests in the audience to today's hearing. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time. Under committee rule four f any oral opening statements and hearings are limited to the chair and the ranking member.
▶ 0:07:08Statements be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with committee rule three. Oh, without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the congressman from montana, Mr. downing, be allowed to participate in today's hearing. Without objection. So ordered. We are here today to hold an oversight hearing titled fix our forests for affordable and reliable water and power supplies.
▶ 0:07:35I now recognize myself for a five minute opening statement. Today, the subcommittee on water, wildlife and fisheries will hear from nonfederal experts in water and power management on how a century of fire suppression and decades of mismanagement have created a perfect storm of overstocked, unhealthy and fire prone national forests, resulting in a destabilized water supply and negative impacts on our ability to provide power across the
▶ 0:08:05West. Decades of deliberate policy choices, however, have have handcuffed our forest managers, substantially restricting their ability to implement much needed and site specific on the ground treatment activities to protect this incredible resource.
▶ 0:08:20These dc mandated policies have created unnaturally dense forests and resulted in greater incidences of catastrophic forest fires, overwhelming insect infestations, and a dramatic decrease in overall forest health. They have also had real and demonstrable impacts on water availability, as well as our ability to produce affordable and reliable power.
▶ 0:08:45Taken by general custer during his mid-19th century expedition to south dakota, the photo to the right of me on the left side. For those of you looking out there, show a forest in its natural history, historical condition with gaps in its canopy, fewer trees per acre, and variability in the age of the stand. By contrast, the photo next to it reveals the contemporary state, with a dense canopy being overstocked and monolithic in age.
▶ 0:09:14I can show you photo after photo after photo showing the same thing. For anyone who would like to look at this book during the course of the hearing today, you can see what I'm talking about. The historical photos show what forests in their natural state were like, and the modern day photos show overgrowth and unhealthy density. This increased tree density intensifies competition for water, reduces downstream flows, and turns forests into time.
▶ 0:09:42Bombs that can ignite with a single spark. Wyoming is ground zero for these threats. The elk fire in the bighorn national forest last year is a cautionary tale for all of us, but most specifically for the policy makers in washington, dc and the environmental ngos who for too long have fought every effort to properly manage our national forests. Just to give you a taste of what we experienced in a matter of three hours, three hours.
▶ 0:10:10That fire burned 25,000 acres in three hours. Prior to that, and in the last 100 years, the largest fire on the forest had been a total of 18,000 acres, and it took a month to get to that size.
▶ 0:10:31By the time that the snow finally came in late october, the elk fire had consumed over 98,000 acres, which is five times larger than anything on the record books. What was one of the most significant causes of such a large and fast moving blaze? Dense stands and dead and downed timber.
▶ 0:10:51Years of study, historical knowledge and understanding of hydrology, the recognition that trees consume a massive amount of water and common sense have together proven time and time again that by engaging in active forest management, we can protect homes and critical infrastructure, avert costly disruptions and negative air and water quality impacts to local communities, as well as increase water availability for downstream users.
▶ 0:11:17I will share just a few statistics that illustrate the point. Snowpack is the west largest reservoir, but an overgrown forest tree canopies capture up to a third of snowfall. In fact, studies in the sierra nevada range have shown that active forest management increases downstream flows by up to 9%, with the potential to add as much as 2.2 million acre feet to california's water supply.
▶ 0:11:46Nearly 180 million acre feet of the nation's water supply, approximately 46.3%, originates on national forest system lands. Just imagine the water supply benefits of a healthy federal forest system. A recently published study by the forest service found that in 2014, one year after a wildfire in colorado's front range, a single flood event resulted in the erosion of 35 years worth of sediment.
▶ 0:12:13While each system is different, this is happening all over the west. The fix our forest act, led by chairman westerman, addresses many of these challenges facing utilities by equipping forest managers with the tools to restore forest health, improving reliable water supplies, and protecting our power infrastructure ratepayers. The house has done its part in passing this critical legislation, and it is now incumbent upon the senate to act.
▶ 0:12:39With that, I want to thank all of our witnesses, especially my constituent o'toole, for joining us today. Thank you all for being here to testify, and I look forward to a robust discussion. I now recognize ranking member hoyle for her opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair. Um, first, I just want to make a comment on a great loss for this committee. With, um, the death of congressman lamalfa.
▶ 0:13:10He's unassuming, authentic, committed to his constituents and natural resources, and, uh, was willing to work with anyone whenever he could. Um, he had a great sense of humor and a breadth of knowledge of of many things. We used to talk about music all the time. Um, he was kind and worked hard to make others feel included. And that is something that we don't often see here in this body. Um, I know this committee and this body will be less for his loss.
▶ 0:13:42And I know I join others in saying that. I will certainly, uh, miss seeing him. Um, today's hearing is focused on the connection between forestry and water supply, which is an important issue for my district and communities across the west. I, uh, I am lucky enough to live on the mckenzie river, and I see firsthand how the health of our forests and rivers are deeply tied. Uh, forest.
▶ 0:14:10Naturally filter our waters, reducing sediment, nutrients, pollutants before they enter rivers and streams. Um, and our national forests capture and filter drinking water for 180 million people in 68,000 communities across the country. When our forests are healthy, they reduce flooding and deliver clean water downstream.
▶ 0:14:33Unfortunately, increasing temperatures, long term drought and, um, forest mismanagement starting 115 years ago, certainly in the pacific northwest of of clear cutting and, um, a nonscientific based conservation management policy at at the federal level has contributed to wildfires, um, with drier forests.
▶ 0:15:01And when wildfires burn at high intensity, they leave severe and long lasting impacts on the environment. Vegetation stripped away, soils become unstable, landscapes are more vulnerable to erosion, the ground is hardened. So, um, you know, our it's harder for us to get water up from the ground.
▶ 0:15:25And fundamentally, uh, fisher affected because we need to have our forests on our streams so that we can keep our our streams and rivers at the right temperature. Ash, sediment and other contaminants wash into rivers and reservoirs, reducing water quality, damaging infrastructure, and increasing treatment costs for water providers and communities.
▶ 0:15:50And for all these reasons, water users need a seat at the table for forest management and wildfire conversations. Wildfire risk reduction and watershed restoration are essential to building resilience and protecting communities from catastrophic wildfires.
▶ 0:16:11We should continue to invest in successful programs like the collaborative forest landscape restoration program, which supports strong partnerships like the one in the rogue river basin in my district. Um, we need collaborative solutions that balance conservation and restoration, which are the best tools to reduce wildfire severity, protect headwaters and safeguard downstream water supplies. And I hope today's discussion helps us find that common ground. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 0:16:44>> thank you. I now recognize chairman westerman for his opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair. Good morning everyone. Before I get to my opening statement, I'm going to make a couple of acknowledgments. Um, ranking member hoyle, uh, already mentioned the first one. This is our first committee business. Uh, without our good friend and colleague doug lamalfa. And, you know, doug was passionate about serving his constituents.
▶ 0:17:15He was passionate about rural america. He was passionate about the issues. But. He was also had a big guy with a big heart and kind to everyone and, um, always cracking jokes, always had a smile on his face. And I think everybody knew had a had a nickname. Um, he he called me westy when he would see me.
▶ 0:17:42Even he met my daughter one time and gave her a nickname and would still ask me about about my daughter and, uh, use her nickname when he would ask me. So we're we're going to miss doug. Um, I think it shows this how, um, life is precious, and it's the brevity of life. And, uh, hopefully it encourages us all to do better with the time that that we have here.
▶ 0:18:07And I just want to take a moment and have a moment of silence and reflect on, uh, the blessing doug was to us and, uh, turn our thoughts towards his family and his loved ones. Thank you. And I also want to acknowledge that, uh, all the major flooding that's happened in representative huffman's district in recent days.
▶ 0:18:36I know your district's been hit very hard. And our thoughts are with with you and your your family and constituents there in northern california. But speaking of water, we'll turn back to the subject of today's hearing. And, uh, chairman hageman, thank you so much for holding this hearing. This could have been a federal lands or a wwf subcommittee hearing, because it's kind of the intersection of the two.
▶ 0:19:05And if we look back to the the first environmental conservative or someone we would call the first conservationist who the name was actually coined after teddy roosevelt, he understood forestry better than a lot of people understand it today, with a much less, uh, advanced body of, of research and knowledge about forestry. But he often called forest the lungs of the earth. They breathe in carbon dioxide and they breathe out oxygen.
▶ 0:19:34And I think most people who've had junior high science understand photosynthesis, and they get that. But roosevelt also recognized that, uh, forests were pretty much the kidneys of the earth, too. And he made statements talking about developing the west, how that the only way we could successfully develop the west was to protect the forest and the watersheds, uh, of the west.
▶ 0:20:00Uh, a lot of great foresight into, uh, I think we're very what we're very profound words that roosevelt, uh, talked about when he talked about taking care of the forest and the watersheds. And here we are many years later, talking about taking care of the forest and the watersheds.
▶ 0:20:19Um, there's a lot of science out there that we now understand about the interaction of forestry and soil health and soil protection, which gets back to the protection of watersheds and all the things that, uh, live in the watersheds and probably no more critical time than ever than, than right now to be talking about, uh, how we do our part in making sure that these natural systems function
▶ 0:20:51To the, the highest performance possible. Uh, because of the, the water issues and especially in the west. But it's not just the west. Uh, when when I was in forestry school, we went to massachusetts, to the quabbin, which is a very highly managed forest that regulates the water quality and quantity going into these reservoirs that feed the city of boston. And somebody had great foresight to put that system into place.
▶ 0:21:20And you don't hear about water shortages in boston. You don't hear about water quality issues in boston because the right things were done for managing the forests. The same thing with the watersheds that, uh, feed new york city. Uh, there's been a lot of work done in our country, in these areas in the past, that when we look at the broader spectrum, the forest service, uh, says that approximately 80 million americans get their drinking water from national forest.
▶ 0:21:47And in the west, the national forest system lands make up 19.2% of the land and account for 46.3% of the surface water supply.
▶ 0:21:59Uh, while more comprehensive west wide data are unavailable, in 2021, report by the state of california found that nearly 40,000 miles of bare power lines exist in areas at greater risk of wildfire in california alone, forested watersheds support agriculture. They feed the rivers and the reservoirs and generate hydropower. When forest are healthy and well managed, uh, they reduce runoff, they reduce erosion, and they store water, uh, like a sponge.
▶ 0:22:30And they release it gradually throughout the year. When they're neglected or mismanaged, the consequences show up downstream. Our water systems, our power grids and our communities all suffer, uh, when, uh, those watersheds are not managed properly. I've had the opportunity to travel many places in the country, many places around the world, and look at the interaction of forested watersheds and water supply. And I can tell you it's different everywhere.
▶ 0:22:59It's different in arkansas than it is in california. I've been in, uh, idaho, in northern idaho, where the slopes were 70%, and they were doing forest management practices that would never work in my home state because the soil would erode off in heavy rains.
▶ 0:23:20But when your moisture comes and snowpack, uh, if you don't let the snow get to the soil where it can gradually melt and get into the hydrology of the soil, uh, you lose it through evaporation. So if you have very thick forest which holds the soil together very well, uh, if you're not getting the water in the soil, you're you're defeating. The purpose is there. But we understand those things.
▶ 0:23:50There's no reason that we're not managing these watersheds for resiliency and for, uh, water protection and water production. Uh, I think we have great opportunity in our country to, uh, to do that, uh, we can do a much better job than we've been doing. Uh, we just have to have the will to make that happen. And that's why I'm glad we're having this hearing today. I look forward to hearing the testimony. Thank the witnesses for being here, and I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:24:18And I now recognize ranking member huffman for his opening statement. >> thank you, madam chair. I'd like to, uh, join my other colleagues in, uh, just honoring doug lamalfa for a moment. I want to agree and associate myself with all of the things that have been said. Um, those are great descriptions of doug and his wonderful qualities.
▶ 0:24:40I go back 20 years with doug lamalfa in my northern california neighbor, and we served together in the state assembly, so I thought I'd just share one of the kind of iconic, funny, doug lamalfa moments that that I always think of when we were first in the assembly together. One of our colleagues was karen bass. Before she was the mayor of los angeles, before she became the speaker of the california assembly. She was just one of our rank and file colleagues.
▶ 0:25:10And I remember being, um, in in a conference room, uh, with doug and karen walked in and doug just casually nodded and smiled and said, good to see you. And the young people are too young to remember the saturday night live skit with the bass. But doug lamalfa was like this archive of anything funny in pop culture, and he always had just a charming, funny thing to say. That was one of those.
▶ 0:25:37And he backed it up because, um, I know he later invited karen when she became speaker of the assembly up to his farm and got her in a huge combine and drove her around his rice farm and just really enjoyed showing her around. That was who doug was. He, uh, he stood tall, literally and figuratively and will miss him. So, um, the topic before us, I, uh, I know a lot about fire.
▶ 0:26:05Anybody in northern california does, uh, we all know people and loved ones and communities that have just been devastated by wildfires. Uh, we all, uh, have watersheds near us that have been damaged, critical infrastructure that has been put at risk or wiped out. And just yesterday, of course, california and all of us marked the one year anniversary of the massive fires in los angeles that many families are still reeling from.
▶ 0:26:34Um, so it's important to have these, uh, hearings and conversations. Uh, but if we're serious about reducing wildfire risk and protecting communities and water resources, we do have to be clear eyed about how we got here. Uh, and we have to focus on the real, responsible solutions, not repackaged political agendas. Fire has long been an integral part of many western ecosystems.
▶ 0:26:58Long before our national forests were established, um, indigenous people were using fire to steward the lands. I think we understand that now, uh, these low and moderate intensity fires reduced excess vegetation, supported biodiversity, maintained healthy forests and watersheds, and reduced the risk of the more catastrophic fires that we're seeing all too often today.
▶ 0:27:21But, uh, with the western settlement came a significant shift in management policy, and it was marked by federal agencies using what they called the 10 a.m. Policy. This sort of suppression everywhere, all the time, uh, approach to fires, uh, and putting all of them out by the next morning, fires were basically treated as a nuisance rather than a natural, necessary process. And let me be clear, 10 a.m.
▶ 0:27:47Is the right thing to do sometimes, but it's not the thing to do all the time everywhere. Because if that's your only solution, you're going to end up setting the conditions for long term harm. Uh, and long term danger to communities, ecosystems, and watersheds. So today, we're living with the consequences of some of that shortsighted, uh, policy. Decades of suppression have created unnaturally high fuel loads, dense forest stands, stressed ecosystems.
▶ 0:28:15We have to acknowledge that climate change is compounding this problem. Hotter temperatures, prolonged drought, reduced snowpack, earlier snowmelt, drying out forests, reducing water availability across the west. These conditions fuel high intensity fires that burn straight through landscapes and contaminate drinking water with ash, heavy metals and chemicals. So I think we now realize that suppressing fire everywhere all the time was misguided.
▶ 0:28:42Agency experts are working to correct course, uh, we understand prescribed fire, cultural burning, forest restoration. These are essential tools to rebuilding forest and watershed resilience. But, um, in politics, we sometimes seek instant gratification. We sometimes seek to put things on a bumper sticker. And, uh, this issue is just not going to work that way. You're not going to fix it overnight, because this has been decades in the making.
▶ 0:29:13So, uh, my colleagues may argue that, uh, more logging or weakening nepa or esa is the solution to the wildfire crisis. Uh, that is just not true. Targeted thinning does have a role to play, but it's not a silver bullet, and we should not represent it that way. Poorly planned logging can actually increase wildfire risk to communities.
▶ 0:29:35That's because commercial logging tends to target larger trees that are actually more resilient to fire, and it leaves in their place smaller vegetation. Litter fuels that most often actually fuel deadly wildfires, threaten communities, and impact watersheds.
▶ 0:29:52What we need is a holistic, science driven approach that prioritizes forest and watershed health first, and that means expanding prescribed and cultural burning, applying targeted thinning where appropriate, restoring riparian areas, investing in resilient infrastructure, and protecting communities without sacrificing the ecosystems that sustain our water supply. So many of us have been trying to lead on this work through the infrastructure law and, uh, the inflation reduction act.
▶ 0:30:22We made historic investments in these strategies. Unfortunately, the trump administration and our friends across the aisle, uh, have taken us backward on a lot of that. Uh, they consistently advocate for weakened environmental protections, cutting federal funding for many of these tools and for the land management agencies, and, uh, that we depend on, uh, for western water and the management of our public lands.
▶ 0:30:49So I look forward to our conversation, madam chair. Uh, but it's important to emphasize that if we genuinely want to protect communities and our watersheds, we have to take a holistic approach that is grounded in science, indigenous ecological knowledge as well, and not repeat the mistakes of the past. I yield back. >> I will now introduce our panel of witnesses. Mr.
▶ 0:31:14O'toole, a director of family farm alliance board of directors from savery, wyoming. Mr. travis deal, the chief executive officer of the colorado springs utilities from colorado springs, colorado. Miss madeline mcdonald, the senior watershed scientist at denver water from denver, colorado. And Mr.
▶ 0:31:35Randy howard, the general manager of the northern california power agency, a member company of the american public power association from roseville, california. Thank you all for being here today. And I'd like to remind our witnesses that under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes. But your entire statement will appear in the hearing record. To begin your testimony, please press the button on the microphone and we use timing lights. When you begin, the light will turn green.
▶ 0:32:03When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow, and at the end of five minutes the light will turn red. And I will ask you to please complete your statement. I will also allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning begins. I will begin with our first witness in my constituent, Mr. o'toole, and thank you for being here today to share wyoming's perspective on this important issue. I now recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you. Sorry. Thank you.
▶ 0:32:35Chairman westerman, chairwoman hageman and ranking member hoyle, along with the members of the subcommittee, um family farm alliance, would like to give their condolences for Mr. lamalfa. He was a giant in california agriculture. And he will be missed. Um, I am a fifth generation family rancher from south central wyoming near savery.
▶ 0:32:59And, um, we run in northwest colorado as long, along with, uh, south central wyoming and in about five counties there. And we raised cattle, sheep, horses, dogs and children and, uh, not necessarily in that order. Um, I'm also a member of the family farm alliance and on the board of directors, and we believe in partnerships. We are grassroots organization of family farmers, ranchers, irrigation districts and allied industries and 16 different western states.
▶ 0:33:29Um, I'd like to talk mostly about where I live on the colorado river, and I live at the very headwaters of the colorado river. But like I said, we're in 16 western states. And so there's a lot of things that go on in the west that aren't necessarily on the colorado. But I know the colorado the best. There's 40 million plus people that get their drinking water from the colorado river. There's at least 5.5 million acres of farm and agricultural land on the colorado river.
▶ 0:33:59Up to 80% of the runoff on the colorado river is snowmelt. 70% of that starts in wyoming, colorado, and utah. Experimental forest projects can yield up to 25% of by doing, uh, mastication and mechanical work. And, um, the right kind of prescribed forest fires, um, with better overall function of the watershed.
▶ 0:34:26Nearly 90% of people on public water systems in western states get their water from some sort of that comes from federal lands for a portion of their drinking water supply or whatever that use is for utility. Wildfire creates dead, unusable trees.
▶ 0:34:46It's dangerous to the public and the permittees wildlife and livestock soil runoff, and it threatens the water infrastructure that so much water, so much money comes from here in washington, D.C. to build this, uh, western infrastructure that's so important to the lifeblood of the west. Um, I'd like to talk a little bit about, uh, carbon.
▶ 0:35:12And in the last 40 years, the us has gone up in, uh, acres burned by 600%. We have lost our ability to sequester carbon on the national forest lands. And I think in 2025, we went, um, there was 100 million, um, 100 million tons of carbon was released because the forests are not functioning correctly.
▶ 0:35:38Fire suppression exceeds $4 billion that the federal government spends. And that doesn't include what local and state governments have to spend. Um, there's several things I'd like to list six of them for restoring forests with mechanical thinning and prescribed fire, increased forest resilience, stabilized carbon storage, reduce catastrophic fire risk, increase ecological diversity, provide wood products and increase water yield.
▶ 0:36:08There's a group that my late father, pat o'toole, put together, called the headwaters of the colorado, or the hock. There's 44 different partners across every landscape type, and many land users there excel, accelerating forest treatments and increasing funding for forest management activities.
▶ 0:36:28The hock is in two states and 250 000 acre uh forest watersheds throughout the medicine bow water or mountain medicine bow forest service lands. Their goal is to filter and store water, support livestock production, sustain wildlife and fisheries, sequester carbon, and support economically viable local communities. And to me, that's what all of this is about.
▶ 0:36:56How do we keep our communities in states like wyoming, colorado, there's so many small little communities that are so important, and if we lose those, then we lose the lifeblood of where all these, uh, forest permits and forest grounds are. There usually is not a large, large, uh, city in these areas. It's the small communities that are the lifeblood of our states.
▶ 0:37:22And if we can bring back logging and different kinds of opportunities to these small communities, we have a future for the west. Thank you. >> thank you. And just as a point of personal privilege, um, Mr. o'toole's father and grandfather served in the state legislature with my father for many, many years. So I've known this gentleman for a long time.
▶ 0:37:48I now recognize representative cranked to introduce his constituent, Mr. diehl. >> thank you, madam chair. Travis diehl is a good friend of mine, and he's someone who spent his life in service to our country as a united states marine. And now to the people of colorado springs, as the ceo of colorado springs utilities. And under his leadership, colorado springs utilities operates one of the largest municipally owned forest service utilities in the us.
▶ 0:38:15They provide electric power, natural gas, water and wastewater services to nearly half a million people. Mr. diehl oversees critical infrastructure, including the nixon power plant, which many members of this committee, including the chairwoman, toured last may along with a natural gas facility, multiple water and wastewater treatment plants, and a water quality lab. Somehow, in between running all of these essential facilities that colorado springs depends on every day, he still finds time to go hunting, though.
▶ 0:38:44I'll say, uh, I believe I might be the better hunter, despite all the great pictures that he always sends me. In short, he and his teammates, uh, make sure that when my constituents turn on their lights, turn on their water, uh, they flush a toilet or pour a glass of water. Those services are there.
▶ 0:38:58Um, and because of that responsibility, he understands the challenges utilities face as western states confront more severe drought, growing wildfire risk and increased pressure on our forest watersheds, I hope everyone listens closely to his perspective on this important and proactive forest management, because few people will tell you like it is better than travis diehl. Thank you, madam chair. >> thank you. And, Mr. diehl, I want to personally thank you for using wyoming coal.
▶ 0:39:26Uh, I now recognize Mr. diehl for five minutes. >> good morning. Chairwoman. Thank you. Thank everybody for the time today. And, uh, it's first time here. So, you know, like congressman craig said, I'm pretty much to the point. So we'll get started. So my name is travis. I serve as the ceo of colorado springs utilities. It's a forest service utility owned by colorado springs, the citizens of colorado springs. And we're a municipally owned and makes us municipally owned.
▶ 0:39:52We serve natural gas, water, wastewater and electric, which makes us a definitely a little bit different and healthy forest, create a direct threat to our water and power infrastructure, and most importantly, to the homes and businesses in our communities. The city of colorado springs sits at the foot of pikes peak, and 70% of our city's total water supply comes from the headwaters areas that in the forest service lands. Because we're not located on a major river and have no natural lakes, we'd have been entirely on this imported water. This requires work.
▶ 0:40:22Close partnerships with the us forest service protect our supply from catastrophic wildfire. Colorado springs utilities is not unique in our reliance on water from federal lands. Many western communities do. We are exceptional in that we also own and operate hydroelectric generating units and electric transmission distribution lines on the adjacent to forested lands that are managed by the federal government. This creates a distinct interdependence between water security and electric reliability for our community.
▶ 0:40:52This means that a single catastrophic wildfire can simultaneously threaten both our water supply and our power generation. As such, our infrastructure encompasses far more than just pipelines and power lines. It includes these landscapes themselves that relies on the federal partnerships that we have developed to manage these critical, forested landscapes. For too long, federal forests have been neglected, and many of our forests are in critical need of attention.
▶ 0:41:17The fix our forests act, that passed the house early last year contains many provisions that would support land managers, enable forest health projects and contribute to restoration efforts. This legislation is an important first step why we believe there is room for improvement in the senate version, and I have included more detail in my written statement. I respectfully urge the passage of either version of this bill.
▶ 0:41:41One of the most significant strengths of the fix our forests act is its support for landscape scale restoration in high priority watersheds and fire sheds, including the establishment of wildfire crisis strategy areas. Historically, priority landscapes were identified solely for ecological reasons without considering community assets, utility infrastructure or collaborative partnerships. The fix our forest act enables a more holistic approach and solidifies cross-boundary partnerships.
▶ 0:42:11For example, fix or forest act's designation of high priority fire sheds and promotion of shared stewardship agreements allows improved pace and scale of forest treatments in high risk watersheds. Many of our reservoirs sit on federal lands under special use permits, which makes federally coordinated post-fire response suppression efforts and ongoing forest management essential to protecting our communities water supply.
▶ 0:42:36Meaningful risk reduction will require ongoing federal support and funding, continued shared stewardship through continued mechanical thinning and prescribed fire to reduce catastrophic wildfire risk and post-fire damage. Our current local partnerships have shown that shared stewardship can accomplish by shifting this forest management work from solely federally responsibility to a collaborative effort through tools like good neighbor authority and categorical exclusions.
▶ 0:43:02We have been able to treat 1800 acres of high priority watershed annually. However, without continued federal investment, our ability and the ability of others like us to treat priority watersheds will diminish place in our community assets at greater risk. Healthy, actively managed forests are essential to protecting our communities and maintaining the clean, reliable water supplies that our communities and ecosystems depend on. Our forests are a critical juncture.
▶ 0:43:30We need targeted investment in proactive forest management. Now, our ratepayers will bear the far greater cost of catastrophic wildfires. For 140 years, college springs utilities has partnered with federal land managers to protect our watersheds. We stand ready to continue this partnership, but only congress can ensure federal land managers have the tools, flexibility and funding they need to manage forests at a pace and scale this crisis demands.
▶ 0:43:54I respectfully urge the passage of forest act to restore and increase federal funding for on ground implementation, ensure land managers have streamlined authorities to act before forest burn rather than after. Our community cannot afford to wait every fire season without meaningful action increases both the risk of catastrophic loss and certainty of higher utility bills and increase reliability. This is an investment in community resilience, water security, and power reliability that will pay for generations.
▶ 0:44:22This is our communities. This is so important. We are neighbors to our federal partners and we have to have solutions with that. And I thank everyone for their time today. >> thank you, Mr. dillon. You're absolutely correct. I now recognize miss mcdonald for five minutes. >> thank you. Chair hegeman ranking member and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to provide testimony regarding forest health and wildfire impacts on water resources.
▶ 0:44:50My name is madeline mcdonald, a watershed scientist at denver water, where I manage our forests and our wildfire programs. Denver water is the oldest and largest water provider in the state of colorado. I'm also a former member of the wildland fire mitigation and management commission, having served in the public utility industry seat in the western united states. Water is our most precious resource. A clean, reliable water supply sustains vibrant communities and economies. In my home state of colorado and across the west.
▶ 0:45:21While there are many challenges facing water providers, the threat of wildfire often represents one of the most pressing and impactful challenges. As denver water, we know this firsthand. After the 1996 buffalo creek and the 2002 hayman wildfires, brown and sediment laden water mixed with thousands of burned trees and other debris poured into our reservoirs, degrading our water quality and clogging our infrastructure.
▶ 0:45:46These fires produce extraordinary challenges to maintaining the delivery of clean water to our 1.5 million customers. In the aftermath of these fires, denver water and partners across colorado took action. Denver water adopted a proactive approach to watershed enforced management by creating the from forest to faucets partnership.
▶ 0:46:07In total, the partnership has invested $96 million in proactive forest management is now in its 16th year of working together collaboratively to protect water supplies. With this perspective, I'm here today to share three high impact principles for federal leadership to further the protection of water supplies from wildfire impacts.
▶ 0:46:28My first message is that shifting from a reactive to a proactive force in wildfire management approach will protect water resources and save public dollars. The cost of reacting to wildfire is unsustainable. In 2023, the federal joint economic committee estimated that wildfires cost the us up to $893 billion each year as of about 4% of the us gdp.
▶ 0:46:55However, recent studies have shown that every $1 invested in proactive fuels treatment saves an average of $7. The proactive investments needed to build resilience to wildfire are a fraction of the cost the us is currently incurring from wildfire.
▶ 0:47:13There are several federal programs that employ a proactive approach and should be expanded on the collaborative forest landscape restoration program, and the joint chiefs landscape restoration partnership are two such programs that could effectively utilize increased appropriations. My second message is that efficient and effective post-fire recovery programs are essential to minimizing impacts to water supplies. The greatest impacts to water resources typically occur after a fire is extinguished.
▶ 0:47:42Therefore, the effectiveness of wildfire recovery efforts directly impacts the vulnerability of water providers. Post-fire recovery can be improved by creating more cohesion and investing in preparedness to promote cohesion, authorizing post-fire assessments and funding programs to span jurisdictional boundaries can offer a starting point to increase preparedness. Existing forest management programs can be modified to authorize post-fire preparedness as an allowable activity.
▶ 0:48:11My third and final message is that there is no silver bullet to address the wildfire challenge and subsequent impacts on water supplies, a comprehensive long term approach and sustained investment will be required. The wildfire challenge in front of us today is the result of a century of fire exclusion. The wildfire challenge did not present itself overnight, nor can it be overcome overnight.
▶ 0:48:36A long term approach supported by sustained investment has proved successful at protecting denver waters water supplies. In 2025 alone, three wildfires occurred within forest management projects funded by denver water. Several years prior. All three wildfires were able to be contained before any structures were lost or significant watershed damage occurred.
▶ 0:49:00The decision to invest in these projects decades earlier continues to benefit denver water and local communities. In closing, improving wildfire management systems will alter the outcome of this pressing economic and ecological challenge. With stresses on water resources only growing, the importance of protecting our water supplies is even more paramount.
▶ 0:49:23I want to thank you, chair hageman, ranking member hoyle, and members of the committee for your time and for your leadership on this important issue. >> thank you, miss mcdonald. And now I recognize Mr. howard for five minutes of questions or five minutes of testimony. Thank you. >> chair.
▶ 0:49:39Hageman, ranking member hoyle and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify on this issue that is critical to the west and to our national infrastructure, the deteriorating health of our federal forests and its direct impact on water and power, reliability and affordability. My name is randy howard, the general manager of northern california power agency, representing 16 public power communities serving 700,000 customers.
▶ 0:50:07I'm also here today speaking on behalf of american public power association, with which represents more than 2000 community owned utilities serving 55 million americans. Before I begin, I would also like to acknowledge the late congressman doug lamalfa. He represented many nepa member communities and was a steadfast champion for public power. He was concerned about grid reliability and wildfire resilience.
▶ 0:50:37He was deeply committed to protecting electric ratepayers and keeping northern california's communities safe, and would have wanted to be here with us today discussing these issues. He was a friend to many of us, and our hearts go out to the family, the staff and the communities. He served so well. Our forests are dynamic systems that demand active management. When we fail to manage the fuels, we pay the price.
▶ 0:51:04In blackouts, boil water notices, lost hydropower, and skyrocketing insurance costs. Utilities face three major challenges. First, before the wildfire occur, hazard trees outside the utility corridors often require months or years of federal approvals for removal, even when they pose an immediate safety risk.
▶ 0:51:32Streamlined permitting and categorical exclusions under nepa, and are essential to prevent ignitions. Second, during wildfires, utilities must de-energize lines for public safety and aerial firefighting, sometimes triggering widespread outages. More regional coordination and common protocols can reduce the cascading impacts on hospitals, water systems and vulnerable populations.
▶ 0:52:00And third, after wildfires, the sediment and debris that we've heard about, they are choking our reservoirs. They're reducing our water quality and our ability to generate hydropower. Federal policy should allow rapid redeposition of non-contaminated sediment on forest service and blm lands for beneficial reuse, rather than forcing costly and delayed hauling.
▶ 0:52:25Chair westerman's fix our forest act provides the framework we need. We need streamlined hazard tree removal, alignment of federal treatment with utility hardening and expedited post-fire recovery. We strongly support the passage. Finally, affordability matters. Strict liability regimes expose utilities and ultimately the customers to catastrophic cost.
▶ 0:52:53Even when utilities comply with approved wildfire mitigation plans, congress needs to explore fault based liability standards and a federal wildfire risk pool to stabilize cost and allow investment in prevention rather than litigation. Enclosing utilities are committed to hardening the grid and operating conservatively, but without timely access and authorization.
▶ 0:53:22Our efforts are constrained by process rather than by performance. With active forest management and liability reform, affordable and reliability can be more than a hearing title. It can actually be reality for our customers. I thank you for the opportunity to be here and I look forward to your questions. >> I want to thank all of the witnesses for your testimony. Um, what each of you are bringing to the hearing today is incredibly valuable.
▶ 0:53:51Uh, you each have a slightly different perspective on some of the issues and challenges that we face. But your testimony has been very powerful today. Uh, it's wonderful for someone who has been advocating for active forest management for these reasons, for several decades, to finally be sitting in a room with the experts who can confirm that this is imperative for the western united states and really, the country as a whole. So thank you for your testimony. And I'm now going to turn to the members for their questioning.
▶ 0:54:21Um, the, uh, I'm first going to recognize chairman westerman for five minutes. >> thank you, chair hagerman. And thank you again to the witnesses for your testimony. This is the kind of testimony I can just sit here and listen to all day, because I agree with pretty much everything. Everyone of you, you said.
▶ 0:54:40But, uh, I just want to quickly go down the witness table and ask, what do you think is the one thing congress can do, uh, in the near term to address the threat of catastrophic wildfires and the threat to utilities in the west, because I think you all, in one way or the other, said that healthy, resilient forests are important
▶ 0:55:10To protecting these watersheds and utilities. But what can congress do to help make that happen? Mr. o'toole, we'll start with you. >> thank you for the question, chairman. Um, I'd like to, you know, start with a quick story. On our ranch. We run, uh, cattle and sheep, and we have about 100,000 acres of national forest permits that we graze on in the summertime.
▶ 0:55:33And some of them, um, well, all of them have major problems with downed trees and dead trees. Trees that have been caught on fire that are dangerous to ride through livestock, uh, recreate any of those things.
▶ 0:55:49So, um, and with the help of the headwaters of the colorado and our local conservation district, we've done, uh, mastication work on our wyoming forests, where we have, um, great help through the forest service and our partnerships with the headwaters of the colorado that have been put together. And by going in there and doing this mastication work, which is basically a date that.
▶ 0:56:15>> I'm sorry, I'm going to have to move a little more quickly, but you're basically saying mechanical thinning. >> mechanical thinning. And yeah, so we've got to get on the work, get ground, get the work done on the ground with, uh, work at the grassroots level. >> Mr. >> deal speed, of course, and continued funding. I think, you know, as budgets are taking a look at we need to understand this is one area that cannot be at risk. It needs to be a bipartisan support to make sure funding stays, because once you get behind, you can't get caught up. >> miss mcdonald.
▶ 0:56:46>> yeah, I believe there'll be a need for a mix of funding, staffing, uh, and then authority changes in some of our existing programs to improve their functionality to support the fix our forest act. I think the one thing that can, can assist in that is adequately resourcing the agencies to execute the new authorities provided and fix our forests. >> Mr. howard. >> I would say, because we're recognizing that we're in a crisis mode right now.
▶ 0:57:10And from the electric utility space, categorical exclusions that allow us to get in and just quickly address some of these dead trees, these hazard trees around some of our lines to at least keep from some of the ignition that we have. The concerns about. Uh, the other issue is, uh post-wildfire. We need a categorical exclusion that we can build back better. Right now, many cases, we burn down our power lines in our communities, regardless of how the fire was ignited.
▶ 0:57:37And we need a categorical exclusion that would allow us to build it back better, because many times we have to build it back exactly the way it was, which is going to be, um, you know, at a high cost to our ratepayers, and it's just going to burn down next time the wildfire comes. >> that makes no sense. The, uh, speaking of categorical exclusions and fofa last year, Mr.
▶ 0:57:58Howard, 30 organizations representing, I think, over 150 community owned electric utilities signed a letter in support of fofa, including the northern california power authority. I think your signature was actually on the letter, and I ask unanimous consent to enter this to the record. So ordered. But this highlighted, uh, a categorical exclusion in section 204 of the house passed fofa. Unfortunately, the senate took that out.
▶ 0:58:25Um, this ce was championed by, uh, our colleague. Uh lamalfa. So he was passionate about these issues. Can you explain the benefits of this authority in the house? Fofa that wasn't included in the senate, passed fofa out of the ag committee, and why we should maybe put that back in. >> yes. Well, I hope it does come back in.
▶ 0:58:53We think it's a critical component and we appreciate the house putting it in. Uh, again, because our forests are in such bad shape at the moment, we really don't have the luxury of walking through what would be a more normalized permitting process. So having that categorical exclusion today, uh, has immediate benefits on our ability to address some of the hazard trees, uh, quickly get those taken care of before they ignite a fire.
▶ 0:59:20And again, our ability as we rebuild, um, or build better, uh, on our system to, to withstand some of the hazards that we're dealing with. Uh, that's just so important, uh, today and for the affordability of our ratepayers. >> and I just wanted to direct one question to miss mcdonald.
▶ 0:59:40Your three points or three points that I would talk about in a hearing like this, the, uh, especially this idea of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I think you said $1 of prevention is worth $7 of of cure. And being proactive versus reactive is, is very important that how does that translate into the cost to the consumer on utilities?
▶ 1:00:07How does it translate into the cost to the taxpayer on having to come back and fix things after they're broken, burned down in this case? >> yeah. Thank you for that question. Um, denver water actually completed with economists at colorado state university. A retroactive cost benefit analysis of our specific investments in proactive forest management. So our first $60 million that our partnership spent, the economists at colorado state university said we avoided $234 million in costs.
▶ 1:00:36That additional cost would have been borne by our ratepayers because we would have had substantial impacts to water supplies, increased costs of treating the water when it's far, uh, when it's degraded, um, increased cost of of repairing damaged infrastructure, um, that can be clogged by some of these post-fire events. And so we have concrete numbers, uh, in what um, our proactive investments have saved our ratepayers. >> so is it safe to say if we wanted to lower prices for consumers, active, proactive forest management would be a big key in that area.
▶ 1:01:07>> it's my number one point. Absolutely. >> thank you. >> wonderful. Thank you, Mr. chairman. The chair now recognizes the ranking member, miss hoyle, for five minutes of questions. Gotcha. >> thank you. Thank you very much.
▶ 1:01:24Um, you know, as we talk about how to approach the new normal, and, you know, I represent an area in oregon where we deal with wildfire every single year, and it comes closer and closer to our cities. We've lost some of the most pristine areas. And our our rivers are streams. Our water supply has absolutely suffered. So, you know, what I would like to see is active conservation.
▶ 1:01:54And, um, again, you know, I would like to ask miss mcdonald, um, one, have you read the forest act in the senate? It is now 178 pages. It is long, big, complicated. I would use the word bloated. Um, and, uh, you know, there's things to like and things to not like about it.
▶ 1:02:23But what for you is the game changer for water and power uses users. And could you speak to the need for investment, as I said, active conservation. But actually having the staff to do that. >> yes. Thank you for that question. Um, I have I have read it is it is quite lengthy. There is a good amount in there though, that I do believe will benefit water providers in denver.
▶ 1:02:51Water has supported the senate version of fix our forests. Um, we think that's a bit of a more sophisticated package with a prescribed fire additions and some other additions there, but specifically the, um, the expansion of the collaborative forest landscape restoration program, the joint chiefs program, some of the reforestation provisions, like the seeds of success provisions, uh, the water source protection program provisions. I do think that there is a good amount in there that we can utilize to increase that proactive forest management work. Um, that will, um, in fact, protect our, our water supplies.
▶ 1:03:20But as I said in the previous question, we do need the funding and the staff to actually execute that, that work. And, um, you know, a stable workforce is is critical in that having the retention of the experts at our federal agencies who know this land so, so intimately, know the communities and know the partnerships so intimately, um, there's only so much we can do as a water utility. Uh, we're not the land managers. We're not firefighters. We really rely on our federal partners for for a good amount of that work.
▶ 1:03:51>> thank you. The gutting of our federal workforce, the loss of the expertise, the canceling out of our job corps programs where we actually allow young people to get out in the woods and get real life experience, um, really has been devastating. And and these things don't match, you know, no money, no mission if we don't put the money up front, as you said, $1, we lose $7, but we lose more than $7, right?
▶ 1:04:17If we look at in my in my district from the holiday farm fire up the mckenzie we have in blue river, we have lost areas that will never be the same. And again for our fish, for our rivers, because we don't have the shade, the increase in temperature in our streams. It's um, it's it's it is a game changer. So speaking to that same question for Mr. o'toole.
▶ 1:04:47>> um, I would like to just start with. Oh. >> I would just like to start with, um, passing fix our forest act is, you know, the first thing, uh, a lot of things get. It's a very complex issue. And I imagine that's why it's gotten to 178 pages, because it's not something that can just be figured out overnight with one. There's got to be a lot of tools in the toolbox for this.
▶ 1:05:11So, um, I, I think, um, once again, we just grassroots getting people on the ground. We have issues at the local level, especially with the forest service, where, um, you know, there's a lot of great ideas that come down. We have a lot of tools, and then you get to one guy that's that has to sign off on it, and then boom, it's stopped. Nothing's happening. So that would be a great way to work the next step there.
▶ 1:05:39>> so for you, the game changer would be one thing, one game changer. What? >> yeah. Uh, get everyone on board on the federal government side to help get these things. Um, continue through the one guy at the very, you know, one of the last steps of paper sign off on on the, uh, let's just say the forest service side. And he doesn't want to sign it, that everything from that, all the great work everyone's done has stopped. >> all right. Thank you.
▶ 1:06:07And again, why the senate did what the senate does. We can't speak to the senate. We are the house. Um, but it's very different. Um, and again, I will just reiterate that the lack of the loss of expertise and manpower in our federal workforce has been devastating, and I hope we can find bipartisan support to put feet back on the ground so that we can do that. Active conservation.
▶ 1:06:38>> thank you. Uh, I now will ask my five minutes of questions. Mr. howard and Mr. diehl, as we have heard from each of you today, the failure to manage our federal forests disrupts water and power supplies throughout the west. Could you please each describe for from your perspective, how dense and overgrown forests and catastrophic wildfire impact ratepayers and utility customers first, Mr. diehl? >> yes. So we take a look at mitigation efforts.
▶ 1:07:07So as we invest in our electric infrastructure, making sure that we have, um, so when a line comes down, basically you're going to have a circuit interrupter where you don't hopefully have any point. But that's only so much technology only goes so way. We have to make sure we continue to invest in enough effective firebreaks and exclusion areas around our electric equipment, especially in those forested areas. All of those help. So technology alone can't fix it. We have to have mitigation efforts. We do a lot of tree trimming, a lot of clearing with that.
▶ 1:07:36That is cost to the ratepayers. But just like we've said many times, like even miss mcdonald said, we have a lot of dollar amounts as well, that prevention. Absolutely. You know, trumps, you know, on the backside of it, trying to get things fixed afterwards. And we also can't stress the impacts our communities when it gets into fire insurance for the residents. So, you know, we talk a lot about cost to the utility companies, but we cannot forget the cost to our neighbors and communities in our mountain areas is increasing. We're sometimes not even get insured.
▶ 1:08:05So we have to show those insurance companies, we're doing proactive efforts in those areas around to make sure we're keeping costs down for everybody, not just utility companies. >> Mr. howard, let's let's hear your perspective. >> uh, so I would echo, um, my fellow panelists, but I would I would add to that, um, with an unhealthy forest, from a utility perspective, we have to be a little more trigger happy when we get to a public safety power shutoff approach.
▶ 1:08:33Because we have too many trees, we have too many dead trees near our power lines. And so when we have this incoming, uh, extreme weather event, uh, we have to be prepared to shut off. And that has a direct impact on the utility, but also to the ratepayers, to all the businesses that we have to shut off. But we have to keep our communities safe.
▶ 1:08:53And until we get our forest healthy again and we we feel confident from at least a utility perspective that we're not going to have trees coming down or coming from outside of the right of way, well, outside of the right of way into the lines. Uh, public safety power shut offs are going to be part of how we have to operate. And that is extremely costly to all of the community, including the utility. >> just recently happened in the state of colorado when we had several days of high wind, and I know how catastrophic that was for the front range.
▶ 1:09:25Um, Mr. diehl and and miss mcdonald, much of western wyoming is classified as fire regime 4 or 5. Mr. diehl, your testimony highlighted that the house version of the forest act includes the expansion of existing categorical exclusions to fire regime five, which was left out of the senate version.
▶ 1:09:46Miss mcdonald, I also have a letter from the western urban water coalition, which includes both the denver water and colorado springs utilities as members, emphasizing the need for forestry legislation to expand categorical exclusions to fire regimes four and five. As Mr. diehl's testimony notes, fire regimes four and five are captured in the house version. How would the ability to treat more acres in fire regimes?
▶ 1:10:12Five decrease the likelihood of catastrophic wildfires in higher elevation states like wyoming and colorado? Let's start with you, Mr. deal. >> yeah, so when it gets into every force is different. And we've talked, you know, whether it's members in oregon or wherever you're at, everything's different. So we have to be able to have a very broader approach to treatment. So you're going to higher elevation. That's a lot of our water storage. So when it gets into those impacts, you know our water storage sets up high so you don't have evaporation rates and those things.
▶ 1:10:40So we got to be able to manage and mitigate those at those different exclusion areas to be able to make sure we maintain our reservoirs and water quality. >> and what about you, miss mcdonald? >> yeah, we certainly have less of our water source watersheds in these fire regimes than than Mr. deal does. But we certainly support the active management in in the forest regimes that is ecologically appropriate.
▶ 1:11:03Um, and if the ecologically appropriate treatment requires a categorical exclusion to do that can be one mechanism to explore to get that work done. >> thank you. Um, Mr. o'toole, as you and I both know, wyoming is a headwater state. And I appreciate the discussion in your testimony on the headwaters of the colorado initiative that you and so many have pushed forward. What have been the greatest challenges to moving this work forward while working across many jurisdictions and even across state lines? >> sorry, could you repeat?
▶ 1:11:33I couldn't quite understand. >> sure. Um, that in your testimony you talked about the headwaters of the colorado initiative that you have pushed forward. And what I've asked is in terms of pushing forward with the, uh, that initiative, what have been the greatest challenges to moving forward? >> um, getting all the right partners on board has always been been a challenge in getting everyone to work together.
▶ 1:12:01Um, I would say as as commodity prices, uh, are always struggling and to be able for, um, for food to be a fair cost for everyone. And then we have, uh, different rate increases for producers that has to fall through, go through the system. And then ultimately the consumer is the one stuck with the bill. >> okay I appreciate thank you. The chair now recognizes.
▶ 1:12:32>> Mr. >> uh, chair now recognizes Mr. soto for five minutes of questions. >> thank you so much, madam chair. You know, in central florida, even though we do have a a lot of water compared to the west, we still are seeing a somewhat increase in forest fires, especially in the saint cloud area where we had, uh, two multi hundred acre fires. That may not be a lot for you westerners, but it's still a a big deal.
▶ 1:12:58We also believe in, uh, having, uh, prescribed burns regularly, especially as we're getting into the dry season. Uh, three lakes wildlife management area is one of those areas in my district that is home to some endangered species and, uh, and near cattle ranches. Uh, we also have been getting, uh, more serious dry seasons from october 15th through may 27th, uh, and facing, uh, moderate drought conditions.
▶ 1:13:28Uh, we also have had to work on improving water supply because of shifting seasons. Uh, miss mcdonald, uh, what barriers have you seen as, uh, in colorado, uh, in establishing water projects and maintaining forests? Uh, what what bureaucratic barriers have you seen? >> yeah. Thank you for that question.
▶ 1:13:53Um, in all honesty, I consider our from forest partnership a little pocket of of success in finding a way to navigate some of those those barriers. We do it through collaboration. Uh, we know that there's no one entity alone that can solve the wildfire challenge. Uh, and so we have, uh, dozens of partners that we work with. Uh, we can't rely just on the federal government to solve this alone. So denver water has accepted some of the costs as well, along with our state, our local, our county partners and our local fire protection districts.
▶ 1:14:22Um, and that diversity of partners allows us to, to be nimble and flexible. And when there's challenges, you know, one level of government, like the federal government, we can pivot and move forward. Um, I think the challenges in colorado are primarily wood utilization. Uh, where do we take this byproduct? I'd love to find more beneficial, productive uses of the wood that we bring off, uh, these forest treatments. Uh, we really put an emphasis on community engagement, ensuring that we have the local community buy in for the work that we're doing.
▶ 1:14:50Uh, but the other resources, uh, the limiting resources are, are funding and staffing. Typically. >> you know, in florida, we've faced, uh, some of the worst of climate change with hurricanes and, uh, extreme heat with rising seas. I see a recent colorado state university study said that back in the 90s, you all would get about a dozen major fires a year. But now in the 2020s, it's 72 fires per year, a six fold increase.
▶ 1:15:16And so I think it's key that we are not blind to one of the root causes of this, which is the burning of fossil fuels and the changing climate. And we're seeing more extreme drought, more forest fires. Can you elaborate on, on this, uh, six fold increase in fires and and how it's critical to make sure that we are improving our clean energy mix? >> um, absolutely. And I'll share the fire.
▶ 1:15:45I mentioned in my opening statement that 1996 buffalo creek fire, it was about 11,000 acres at the time. It was the largest fire in colorado state history. Now the largest fire is well over 200,000 acres. That was the size of the fire that we were concerned about 30 years ago. It was 11,000 acre fire. So we're certainly seeing that, um, on the ground increase in both the frequency and the size and the severity of the fires as well. And that severity is really the factor that will impact the water supplies.
▶ 1:16:10Um, I certainly believe the wildfire challenge is driven by the century of fire exclusion, by climate impacts and by development of the wildland urban interface. So there's certainly a kind of multi-pronged approach that we need to take. Um, and the climate factors are a big part of that. >> now, in addition to the climate factors, there's a discussion about permits and bureaucracy. How much of this six fold increase in forest fires in colorado do you think is because of bureaucracy?
▶ 1:16:42>> uh, that's that's a good question. And I'll say, um, I think fires would have accelerated, um, without any action. I think our ability to influence the the severity of those fires and prepare our fires to receive or prepare our forest to receive fires is well within our our ability. And we do need to work through the bureaucratic hurdles to be able to to do that. Um, but the fires is growing exponentially.
▶ 1:17:09There's there's only so much that we can do in a year, um, we can better position ourselves over the long run. But, um, the wildfire was, was, was going to increase. Um, yeah. Anyway. >> thank you. And I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes the good gentleman from oregon, Mr. bentz. >> thank you, madam chair. Uh, thank you all so much for being here today.
▶ 1:17:32And the the the purpose for me, for this hearing today is to try to prompt, uh, the senate to get busy and pass this bill. And so the main thing that we are trying to do with your testimony is to alert people again, to the obvious, to all of us that are near forests, which is we have created a circumstance that is putting, uh, thousands of people at risk every day, every day.
▶ 1:18:01And yet, for some reason, we cannot get a bill passed out of the senate that would actually protect people. So it's difficult in this, in this type of environment where we have five minutes to try to ask you questions, to have you stand up and yell and shout. But that's what we're really trying to do. This is this is absolutely essential. I just want to share a couple of facts. I was just I think I use ai 50 times a day.
▶ 1:18:29Uh, but I looked this up, uh, was the failed forest management part of the cause of the la fires? That's a simple question I asked. I typed it in a few minutes ago. Oh, yes, it says failed or inadequate forest management, specifically, decades of fire suppression leading to heavy fuel buildup, uh, is a significant attributing factor to the severe la fires. Okay, well, what the la fires cost. So I looked that up somewhere between 164 and $250 billion. And I don't have people killed.
▶ 1:18:59The the horror of this is lost as we try to elicit from you the what in the world we could do about it. And we have done it. We've passed this bill out of the house with bipartisan basis, but now people seem to have want to forget about the la fires or all the fires up in oregon where where I am.
▶ 1:19:19Um, and so my, my, this is my chance to ask you some questions, but this is I you don't need to stand up and scream, but for goodness sakes, um, uh, Mr. uh, deal. Um, you have a utility, and you're trying to make sure those power lines don't swing into the trees and start a fire, and yet the law prevents you from doing so. And so as a result, you're going to get sued as a number of utilities have.
▶ 1:19:47Everybody's utility rates are going to skyrocket. All because you couldn't go in. And do I have it right? Tell me if I have it right. >> yes. I think we have to have the tools to mitigate, and everybody needs to realize we even have arborists on our staff. We will always do everything we can to be environmentally friendly to anything that we touch or do. But there is some things that the cost of doing power, you have to have this area and the ability to treat and mitigate ignition points on all of type of electric. >> does the bill do something to help?
▶ 1:20:16Does the fix our forest act do something to help you keep people safer and your utility rates down? >> yes it does sir. >> okay. What does it do? >> biggest thing is it gives us the ability to move forward, hopefully with speed and funding to do the projects we need to. It gives us ability and as electric utility to have the authority to manage those forest areas, especially where they do. >> you need that right now or can you wait another five, ten years? >> we needed years ago. >> okay. And if you had it that authority, could you keep people safer? Yes, sir.
▶ 1:20:46And could you drive down power rates or at least keep them lower? >> absolutely. >> I'm going to hop to Mr. howard. Uh, and, um, by the way, doug lamalfa one of my closest friends. Uh, right across. I'm right across the border from his district. Uh, if he was here, he would be much more emphatic than. Am I, um, impossible to replace the guy. But you you know exactly the same questions I'm asking.
▶ 1:21:10But, uh, the the question I'm going to ask you is do the collateral, the excuse me, the categorical exclusions help you keep people safer in your particular business? >> absolutely. Um, our ability to to take down a hazard tree, um, can keep the community safe. It can reduce the cost and the impacts of wildfire. We need it immediately. >> so.
▶ 1:21:39So the one other thing that I really wanted to draw out from all of you is the cost, the increasing cost of insurance, because everybody is paying more. Some of us between 10 and 20,000 a year in california and other other places. Would this bill, uh, help, uh, again, asking you to maybe keep some of these rates lower? Many people right now can't even find insurance. They can't afford it. But what do you think? Would this bill, the fix our forest act, help drive down insurance rates?
▶ 1:22:09>> or would it be my belief that that it would if we can reduce, uh, and mitigate the risk of wildfires and ensure that our forests are healthy? Uh, I would assume the ratings, uh, to all the ratepayers for their insurance would, would go down, including the utility, the utilities, ability to get insurance on. Many, many of us in the utility sector have no ability. We have a number of utilities that are unable to get insurance at all.
▶ 1:22:35And that also impacts their ability to renew their rights of way agreements with the federal forest. >> certainly does. I want to thank all of you for your time. Thank you for being here. Yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from michigan. >> thank you, madam chair. And I can't begin my questions without looking at my dear friend, Mr. lamalfa. He I miss him.
▶ 1:22:59He was a great, great man and a good friend to me always, and was really there for me when john died. And he loved cars. So I'm. I love him, uh, with that, um, I america's public lands are central to our way of life, offering space to hike, hunt, fish and connect with our national heritage. Today, these shared lands are under threat, which we all agree on here.
▶ 1:23:26From chronic underfunding and staffing shortages to the catastrophic fires to attack that attack against bedrock, to the attacks against bedrock, environmental laws like the national environmental policy act and the clean water act. As a founding member and vice chair of the public lands caucus, I know how vital these lands and waters are to communities throughout the nation.
▶ 1:23:51National forests are the single most important source of water in the united states, and they supply clean drinking water to about 20% of the country. A recent U.S. forest service study conservatively estimated the value of watershed services from the national forests and grasslands at $3.7 billion annually.
▶ 1:24:15With this in mind, we must ensure that we take every step possible to manage and restore our public lands and waters, not hand them over to loggers. So my question to you is going to build on this, miss mcdonald. Could small forest fires like those that we see, um, in michigan pose a risk to drinking water resources? >> uh, thank you for that question. Um, I do believe so.
▶ 1:24:44And as I mentioned in the previous line of questioning, uh, the size of the fire and matched with the severity of the fire and then the interconnectedness with your water system are all factors, um, to to look at the interconnectedness, meaning how close is it to a tributary that contributes to your drinking water supplies if a fire burns severely? And with that high level of interconnectedness, you will likely see impacts to your water supplies.
▶ 1:25:04>> so what are, from your experience, what are the main threats of wildfires on watersheds, and how can proactive management mitigate these risks? >> yeah, absolutely. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the greatest impacts happen after a fire when a fire burns at a pretty intense severity. Those soil, the soil composition, composition changes, there's a loss in the forest and vegetation cover.
▶ 1:25:29So any rain event that occurs over that burn scar will mobilize all that soil and ash and debris carry it downstream. And if it's deposited in a drinking water source, it will degrade that water quality, can introduce it to additional contaminants like metals or nutrients. Um, and then there's the potential to clog your, your infrastructure, to reduce your storage capacity and your reservoirs or block any, any conveyance infrastructure.
▶ 1:25:53So there's there's pretty extreme impacts that start in the watershed and then, um, result in impacts to your water collection and conveyance systems. >> so how could these takeaways be applied to states with significant amounts of forested land that are not national forest lands like michigan? >> yeah, absolutely. Um, I think maybe one of my first takeaways is if if you're, uh, you're collecting water from a fire adapted ecosystem, fire is going to occur.
▶ 1:26:20Um, but action taken proactively can minimize the severity of that fire and the impacts on your water supplies. I think maybe one of my other lessons learned from our experience is that recovery is going to take decades. Uh, recovery is not a sprint. It is a marathon. And we are still seeing impacts from the fire that occurred 30 years ago. We're still incurring costs from the fire. That impact that happened 30 years ago. And sometimes federal programs aren't built to, you know, span 30 years worth of worth of recovery.
▶ 1:26:49I think action by congress, by investing in the proactive management and investing in that long term recovery would be very beneficial. >> so the wildland fire mitigation and management commission report recommended dedicated funding for the natural resources conservation services, emergency watershed protection program. Can you explain what this program does? And you're not going to have a lot of time why the commission highlighted it and how it helps communities respond to the post-fire watershed changes.
▶ 1:27:19>> yeah, thank you for that question. It was a very important recommendation to me. That program provides funding and technical assistance to any nonfederal partners to help restore, restore watersheds. Um, it is a critical program often used by water utilities for watershed rehabilitation. Post-fire, we recommended some changes, such as having a dedicated funding source for the program. Currently, there is not a dedicated funding source, and it leaves some vulnerability and questions of whether that funding will come through.
▶ 1:27:46We also want to increase the flexibility of that funds to be able to use on nonfederal and federal lands alike, and then potentially lowering the match requirement so our communities have more access to that program. >> thank you. Thank you, madam chair. And I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from colorado, Mr. crank. >> thank you, madam chair. And I'd like to thank my colleague, miss malloy, for allowing me to cut in line, because I have to run to do something else.
▶ 1:28:10I will try and arrange for the university of colorado to lose to the university of utah or something. Uh, in exchange, probably won't be hard. Um, anyway, uh, while wildfire risk today is not a mystery, uh, with advances in modeling, weather forecasting, we can anticipate dangerous wind conditions. We can identify areas of elevated wildfire risk well in advance.
▶ 1:28:32In fact, I can pull up a forest service map right now on my phone showing colorado's current wildfire risk. The problem is an awareness. It's that we haven't managed our forests at the pace required to match that risk. The solution to reduce wildfire risk managed forest responsibly and support healthy ecosystems are included in the forest acts. This is the point of this hearing.
▶ 1:28:56Yet it's been over a year since the house passed this bill, and in that time, colorado has experienced its worst wildfire season since 2020, with more than 200,000 acres burned. It's not an abstract, an abstract, uh, situation for my community. We're facing a growing pine beetle outbreak in pike national forest, just west of colorado springs. The front range cannot afford to wait another year.
▶ 1:29:20Failing to manage our forests puts lives, homes, businesses, military installations and critical utility infrastructures at risk. Again, I want to thank my friend Mr. deal for being here today to highlight the work colorado springs utilities is doing to protect our community. And I have a question, Mr. deal, as you know, governor polis recently announced the creation of the ponderosa mountain pine beetle task force to bring together local, state and federal partners to address the growing outbreak.
▶ 1:29:49Threatening the front range. From your perspective, are these specific provisions in the forest act that would be particularly helpful, or are there provisions that would be particularly helpful for this task force as it works to combat the pine beetle outbreak? >> yes, congressman, I think anything we can do to be able to get ahead of these, the pine, basically the trees are dead and they're standing there. So it's a huge fire risk.
▶ 1:30:12So the quicker we can get in and get to remove these dead trees and get them out of there so we don't have more ignition sources will help. And there's a lot within this bill that absolutely will help support that initiative. >> um, the colorado springs has experienced its share, as you know, of devastating wildfires. The black forest fire came within yards of my own home, uh, in our region has been impacted by the waldo canyon fire, the hayman fire.
▶ 1:30:37What lessons has colorado springs utilities learned from these wildfire experiences that this committee should consider as we work to improve federal forest management policy? >> I think prevention, you know, as people start looking at forest mitigation, whether you use mechanical whatever tools you use to thin the forest down to get it back to the natural state, you know, people can visibly see that.
▶ 1:30:59And I think now that they've seen the burn scar of unmanaged forest versus what a true managed forest can look like, I think that's where people are starting to be open to forest, you know, mitigation and making sure we have that healthy forest is needed. But whenever you look at outside the landscape of colorado springs, you see that burn scar. It reminds you every day of what those lessons learned. I know the question came up of forgetting about the wildfires. Those individuals will never forget it. Everybody's going to see that for decades to come.
▶ 1:31:29And it should be an always reminder. We have to be preventative on our forest management. >> yeah. Mr. deal, thank you for coming in for your testimony today. And thanks for all you do for our community. Thank you, madam chair, I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from utah, miss malloy. >> thank you, madam chair. Um, thank you all for being here. You've been a great panel. This is. I agree with the chairman. I could sit and listen to this all day. It's really validating for all of us up here.
▶ 1:31:59I think, um, everyone's talking about how much better active management is. We haven't had any disagreement on that today. I wholeheartedly agree with it. Well, um, I'm from utah. We have all of the same issues you've all talked about with grazing and utilities and recreation and fires and those impacts. And sometimes we get hung up on how we need the forest service to do more. And, and it's tough to get a big federal agency to change directions, to change policies. I mean, that's our job.
▶ 1:32:29But it's it's still tough for us to do sometime. And I've been sitting here listening to all this testimony, and I just totally changed all my questions. So my staff might be panicking in the back right now. Um, but in utah, we have all these small, family owned businesses that would love to help remove fuels from the forest. And not only would that mitigate a lot of the impacts that you're talking about in some of the risks, but it'd be bolstering our rural economies and keeping families anchored in these small communities.
▶ 1:32:58It seems like a really obvious solution. Um, we've already passed the fix our forest act. We've talked about that. We're trying to address the needs. Hopefully the senate does the same thing. And very soon. And luckily, right now we have an administration that's been innovative and been willing to sign agreements with states and local governments to allow them to participate in more active forest management.
▶ 1:33:20The forest service is willingly participating, um, and sometimes a smaller solution is actually better. We try these big, large solutions for national problems, and I think we're getting smarter about that and working better with local governments, because the state of colorado might need something different than the state of utah or the state of wyoming. And, um, I guess I just want to ask Mr. o'toole, you earlier, you said the biggest thing that you need is help with getting the right partners on board.
▶ 1:33:49How helpful would it be if it was your state in the driver's seat when you're trying to get these things done and get the right partners on board? >> um. >> the the state of wyoming is already being proactive in the legislature and putting money towards working on our forests. Uh, not waiting for the federal government. So I think that the state of wyoming is always a number one resource for the state of wyoming.
▶ 1:34:16Um, you can you cannot fix million acre problems with hundred acre solutions. >> thank you. Um, and I'd just like to open it up to the panel. Don't make me regret doing this, but do you have any experience with these agreements? And how helpful have they been in addressing some of the problems that keep you awake at night? >> yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll jump in here.
▶ 1:34:40Um, so in in many cases, the coordination has been more of a challenge for california and northern california in particular. Uh, we're surrounded by by federal lands and a lot of our, uh, transmission and distribution assets go through those federal lands. So we've been working, uh, hand in hand with the forest service in the blm to attempt to to do a lot of the mitigation work.
▶ 1:35:05Uh, some of the challenges is the rules that blm are different than the rules that the forest service, even though a single line could go through both of those federal agencies, you have to deal with it differently. They have separate permits, and the permits are different, different timelines. So we've been trying to get them to standardize some of those as we work together. When they go in and do a forest management project, it's the ideal time for us to get in on a power line and say, harden that line.
▶ 1:35:33Put in steel poles, covered conductors, relays and other types of equipment. And a lot of times that doesn't get coordinated very well. So fix our forest act addresses some of those really key strategies of coordinating together and tries to get us to work a little better together. So when we go in, we sweep through an area and then that area should be, uh, less fire prone and we can move on to the next high risk.
▶ 1:35:57And so that's one of the reasons that we've really been promoting that fix our forest act as well, because we think there are some really strong provisions on on that coordination activity. >> thank you. >> I can briefly add, you know, just on the on the topic of engaging partners in colorado, we take an all hands, all lands approach. It's all hands on on deck. And we've been able to use a few agreements like good neighbor authority has been particularly successful for us for utilizing the capacity and expertise of our local and state partners to work on federal lands as as well.
▶ 1:36:27And so the cross-boundary work, uh, and the leveraging of expertise has, has been pretty critical for getting work done in colorado. >> thank you. Uh, Mr. dill, you don't look like you're dying to jump on this one. So I'm going to use my last nine seconds just to point out that if my friend doug lamalfa was here, he would ask all of you if you know what percent of the atmosphere is made up of co2. And I always got the answer wrong. So I'm not going to make you answer it. But I join my colleagues in mourning his loss and missing him here today.
▶ 1:36:58With that, I yield back. >> the chair now recognizes the gentleman from mississippi, Mr. ezell. >> thank you, madam chair. And thank you all for being here today. This has been very good for me. Uh, and I'm proud to be, uh, an original co-sponsor of fixed our forest act. Uh, while forest management challenges are often described as western issues, the reality is that mismanagement doesn't stop at state lines.
▶ 1:37:21Uh, poor forest conditions, uh, create ripple effects that impact water quality, water availability and energy reliability across the country. In mississippi, we have nearly 20 million acres of forest land, which are largely privately owned and actively managed, which has been a help to us to avoid the large scale challenges seen and with some of the larger federal force footprint.
▶ 1:37:47But we still feel the downstream consequences of unhealthy forest elsewhere, especially when it comes to strain on water systems and our energy infrastructure. Uh, Mr. o'toole, uh, based on your experience working with producers, landowners and rural communities, how do you how do forest conditions and management practices affect water quality and water availability in states with extensive private forest land like mississippi?
▶ 1:38:21>> the way that the lands around forest managed are imperative to how the forest quality is. And when there's a forest fire, for example, soil erosion is a major problem. Along with in the west, most of the water systems for both cities and rural communities come from reservoirs.
▶ 1:38:39And when you have soil erosion and runoff that can take large debris and other things, it can not only affect the irrigation side of things, but also the local, uh, towns and cities because of the amount of debris that can be blocking where the water comes out and the deliverables are so much lower.
▶ 1:39:01Um, we don't have a whole lot of private land in the state of wyoming, but, um, decisions made and actions taken on private lands can be more, uh, quickly done than on federal lands. And I think that's a great opportunity for states like mississippi. >> thank you.
▶ 1:39:16And how would providing land and forest managers with better tools to address unhealthy forest conditions help protect water resources and critical energy infrastructure, while supporting long term affordability and reliability for the communities and businesses that depend on them.
▶ 1:39:38>> yeah, the local communities in, uh, when I think about wyoming in particular and colorado, there's a lot of smaller communities that have really, uh, fallen down and, and had a tough time keeping the school kids in the schools and the communities going at large. And they're relying either on local agriculture solely or, um, some form of oil and gas or something like that.
▶ 1:40:04So to be able to bring back an opportunity to do, uh, carbon sequestration work, whether that be, uh, making making balls and putting, uh, through bringing in dead trees, making these, uh, balls, and then putting seeds in them for reforestation or doing logging or having the people in the communities, you know, that are running the restaurants and the hotels and all those things.
▶ 1:40:32All of a sudden you build up a new community when you can start using your resources local to, uh, create a create a healthy community. >> thank you. Finally, based on what you've seen, work on the ground, what lessons from state led or private forest management could be applied to federally managed lands? >> speed. Speed would be my number one answer.
▶ 1:40:59We really get hung up on the federal bureaucracy. Uh, especially on the local level. >> yeah. Thank you, madam chair, I yield back. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from north carolina. Mr. mcdowell. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. >> and thank you to the witnesses for being here to testify before this committee today. Um, this this issue comes down to good land stewardship, and that's that's what we're we're talking about today.
▶ 1:41:28And for too long, uh, federal forest policy has focused more on the process than the actual results. And you're locking up land, you're blocking, thinning, prescribed burns and responsible timber work. Uh, did not protect our forests. It made them more dangerous. Uh, when fires do start, uh, they they no longer, uh, clean up the forest floor.
▶ 1:41:56They, they wipe out the wildlife, uh, the habitat, uh, and they destroy watersheds and they threaten entire communities. And the the fix our forest act takes a common sense approach, which is something that is very, very important to me. Uh, because that's not hard, that a common sense approach is the easiest thing that we can do. Uh, and this helps land managers act earlier.
▶ 1:42:22It cuts through unnecessary delays, and it focuses on proven tools like thinning, prescribed fire, responsible timber management. And it recognizes that states, tribes and local partners, they know these landscapes better, uh, than than bureaucrats or folks in washington, D.C. uh, and they are best to be part of the solution.
▶ 1:42:46I think one of the things that that the chairwoman and I have really enjoyed talking about is the endangered species act. That's not what we're here to talk about today, but it highlights a theme that that the fix our forest act also touches on, that we're doing everything that we can as a government to make it harder for wildlife to flourish.
▶ 1:43:09I've spent the better part of my life, uh, volunteering for wildlife conservation and what we're doing with keeping animals on the endangered species act, that our predators for everything else. Uh, we're killing those animals. We're killing deer by letting the gray wolf run wild. That is what we're doing. And by not actually managing the habitat, uh, that the federal government owns, we're pushing wildlife off of that habitat.
▶ 1:43:37We're we're taking away their food source, and we're killing them so we can cry all day about we want to save them, but it's the government that's actually making it harder for them to be alive. And that's what it's common sense. I just it strikes me that we should be able to do things that are common sense, and that's why this is such an important piece of legislation. Um, Mr. diehl, I want to I want to focus my my time of questioning, uh, on you.
▶ 1:44:07Um, you're from colorado, correct? >> yes, sir. >> would you say that, you know, uh, more what the folks in colorado need as far as managing their forest or the folks from central north carolina, like where I'm from, need. >> I would have a better perspective on colorado, right? >> imagine that.
▶ 1:44:26And so, drawing from your experience working with a utility, uh, can you walk us through how vegetation overgrowth and delayed land management increase both wildfire risk and the likelihood of power outages, especially in the high risk areas? >> yes, sir. Uh, colorado has different trees, of course, in north carolina, so they grow at a different rate.
▶ 1:44:49But, you know, our mitigation efforts to make sure we keep, uh, trimming down and we don't have any in encroachment. Vegetation is huge. I mean, all those are ignition points. And you brought up a good perspective. So you're basically vegetation cycle of trimming is going to be different in colorado than north carolina. So those are good examples of just the way the vegetation management is. But you have to stay on top of that to keep the ignition source down and just reliability of the system.
▶ 1:45:14So even if it's not a fire, you have a large power outages and all of that actually takes longer to repair in some of these remote areas. So multiple things there, um, lead to we we have to have better vegetation management. >> sure. Can you explain how fuel build up changes a fire from something manageable to a catastrophic event? >> yeah, exactly. So, you know, long ago, of course, you know, whenever you didn't have a lot of fuel on the ground, the the fire never burned hot enough to kill the standing trees.
▶ 1:45:44So whenever you don't get rid of that dead and, you know, decaying wood fuel source, the fire gets so hot that it basically sterilizes the ground and kills everything standing. So that's why you see such a significant burn scar now, especially in western states, than you do anywhere else. >> got it. Uh, well, madam chair, I'll yield back the remainder of my time. Thank you all. >> thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from montana. Mr. downing.
▶ 1:46:09>> uh, thank you very much, madam chair, for allowing me to, uh, wave on to this committee and for allowing me to, uh, um, talk about leading the effort to reform practices entering proper forest management. You know, I'm a former land commissioner for the state of montana. And, uh, so a little bit of experience in this.
▶ 1:46:28And one of the things that I really noticed is the state land that we managed was much more resilient than the federal land that wasn't as well managed, especially when we saw wildfire coming in, which would essentially sterilize a lot of the unmanaged, uh, federal land. And we had much less impact on that managed state land. So this is something that I is front in my thinking.
▶ 1:46:51Um, and for years this country has implemented misguided legislation and regulations leading to that improper management of our forests, you know, fire prone, federally managed, forest threatened residential and commercial properties, energy infrastructure, water supply, endangering the livelihoods of citizens and businesses across the country.
▶ 1:47:10The fix our forest act directs reform in the right direction by prioritizing wildfire mitigation, forest and vegetation management, and reducing red tape for all parties involved. Um montana is one of the most wildfire prone states in the country, which will continue to be a significant concern in the coming years, and indirect effects of wildfires pose significant threats to consumers, including energy shutoffs and increased costs. I'm going to start with Mr. deal.
▶ 1:47:38What are some of the indirect economic impacts that wildfires have on consumers who aren't specifically in burn zones? >> yeah. Um, so pretty much everybody covers the cost. So when, you know, even those that aren't in those burn areas, you know, when it gets into utility rates, it's sort of across your service territory. So even those that may not be directly impacted still have to have, um, still impacted through their rates. >> right.
▶ 1:48:03And what reforms do you feel are necessary to reduce downstream effects for consumers? >> yeah, I think the biggest thing is, you know, get this act passed is is a must. And it impacts water quality, impacts electric reliability and cost, you know, and private insurance I mentioned that earlier. I mean, I don't think people realize our western communities right now may not even be able to get insurance.
▶ 1:48:24So we have to be able to show our insurance carriers that we're working on fire mitigation steps, as well as forest health management to hopefully start reducing and giving comfort to those insurance companies to keep costs down. >> thank you. I'm going to move to Mr. howard. Uh, how can adverse policies and regulations negatively affect the efficient management and maintenance of vegetation on utility rights away?
▶ 1:48:49>> well, there I mean, there's a number of things obviously related to, you know, streamlining the permitting process where it takes us, um, a lot of man hours and staff hours to, to put in for the permits, seek permits, continue to follow up and still wait, uh, to, to get to cut some of the vegetation down. And then we have the other challenges where we have to leave the vegetation right on the forest floor of those rights of way. Uh, we're not allowed to remove it, um, under the current provisions.
▶ 1:49:20And so we're looking to certainly have the ability to take that material and get it removed instead of leaving it for fuel for the next fire that comes through. Um, so we're we have some of those challenges of, of just that permitting process. >> and so how can the practices that you outlined negatively affect the power utility's ability to preside over right of way and provide low cost, reliable power to, to ratepayers? >> well, obviously, a number of ways on the cost structure of the power rates.
▶ 1:49:48Um, if we can reduce and streamline the process and the efficiency of the process to do the vegetation management, we're going to right up front, reduce the cost. If we can mitigate actually igniting fires or having fires, we're going to reduce the cost to our ratepayers. As we've been talking about in some of the previous questions related to some of the reservoirs. And nepa has a watershed that we manage.
▶ 1:50:12As part of the process, we have 20 times the amount of sediment behind that reservoir today than we should have under normal conditions, but that's related to historical wildfires all came down in. And so it's now reduced the amount of water storage we can have. So we recently had these very large rains that came in. We had to let the water go over the top and bypass the the turbines, because we have no place to put it because it's filled with silt and debris. >> well thank you. Uh, I'm going to move on.
▶ 1:50:39Uh, the fix our forest act includes provisions to broaden good neighbor authority. And this will allow counties and tribes to identify and execute large scale forest management projects on lands they know best. So I'm going to move on to Mr. o'toole. What barriers currently prevent the optimal use of existing good neighbor authority agreements? >> yeah, I've been able to talk a little bit about that.
▶ 1:51:00Um, in terms of having local authorities that just don't really want to move the ball forward in wyoming, we've been able to get a lot done in colorado. It's been a long road. >> yeah. Unfortunately I've run out of time. So on that, madam chair, I yield. >> thank you. Um, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record testimony submitted on behalf of blaze tamer usa. And I also have one statement to make before we close.
▶ 1:51:26I do not think that we can discuss the current, uh, abysmal condition of our national forests without discussing where where the where this came from. Um, if you cannot remember the past, you are condemned to repeat it. Much of this stems from the 2001 clinton roadless rule that was designed to deny access, management and use to 58.5 million acres of national forest service lands.
▶ 1:51:52It has been an absolute disaster for this country, but primarily in the interior west. For the reasons that we have discussed today, I commend the forest service for working to repeal that horrific rule that never should have been adopted or implemented in the first place. I think that your testimony today will be helpful in moving forward with the senate in getting the forest act through.
▶ 1:52:16Uh, I anticipate that many of us in this room will be talking to our counterparts in that body and encourage them to listen to the testimony, listen to the expertise that you have brought with you today, because this has really been quite an educational experience and you've been, uh, great witnesses. I want to thank each of your witnesses for each of our witnesses, for your valuable testimony. And I also want to thank all of the members for engaging as well as you have today. It has been a great discussion.
▶ 1:52:44The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witnesses, and we will ask you to respond to those in writing. Under committee rule three, members of the committee must submit such questions to the subcommittee clerk by 5 p.m. Eastern on tuesday, january 13th, and the hearing record will be held open for ten business days. For these responses, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.