▶ 0:19:46The committee will come to order.
▶ 0:19:49Oh, let me rephrase that. The subcommittee will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. We welcome everyone here today for a hearing on litigation affecting the stone slab industry and in many many times today we will probably be showing this this product that is even by Dr. Michael's uh analysis completely safe in its current form.
▶ 0:20:19So I'll be touching it, I'll be holding it and I will have no fear. I now recognize myself for an oh I'm sorry without objection Mr. Mcccleintoch and Mr. Koreah will be able to participate in today's hearing uh and for the purpose of questioning uh and without objection uh so ordered.
▶ 0:20:42I now recognize myself for the opening Our hearing this morning examines the troubling rise of abusive litigation against US stone slab industry. The stone slab industry contributes around $30 billion to the US economy and employs about 100,000 workers.
▶ 0:21:06Stone slabs are used for for many uses, but the most prominent in all of our homes would be as a effective lowcost hard uh surface in kitchens, bathrooms, and other countertops integral to both residential and commercial use.
▶ 0:21:30uh a a series of events, including the growth of illegal immigrants working in uh un unregulated and unlawful fabrication facilities has created many people who have been injured by ingesting uh in an unprotected way the dust during during wrongful cutting.
▶ 0:21:53These bad actors cut corners in their fabrication shops when it comes to a workplace health and safety in violation of federal and their state laws. The result has been a race to the bottom that has resulted in vulnerable workers at these fabrication shops contracting silicosis. I told myself I'd be able to say that. Um silicon related uh disease by ingesting it into their lungs.
▶ 0:22:23This results in the from the from [snorts] the released and inhilation of silica dust a naturally occurring element in many industry and consumer products throughout fabrication. U when it's processed by grinding or cutting it becomes exactly what you do not want to inhale.
▶ 0:22:45OSHA and many state regulated authorities in cal including those in California have longstanding standards guidance to avoid worker exposure of this hazard. As a matter of fact during one of our witnesses times as the head of OSHA Dr.
▶ 0:23:04Michaels was there at the time in which there there was a significant reduction in what would be considered a safe level and that standard is still the one we use today. Reputable uh fabricating firms follow best practices.
▶ 0:23:23This includes at a minimum a process of of water to make sure the dust doesn't accumulate and then the extraction of any materials uh and the cleaning of the water. Moreover, many of the fabricators use state-of-the-art completely enclosed uh CNC machines, meaning no one is there during the process and it can be completely free of any dust getting into the factory.
▶ 0:23:53This best practices though does not and I repeat does not exempt the litigators from going forward and suing those people even though they can demonstrate that they well were well below Dr. Michaels's acceptable level uh uh basically being at the naturally occurring level and with no elevation. The option to to to be unsafe doesn't come without a cost.
▶ 0:24:23Companies who implement this have by definition higher capex for the machines, higher cost of processing. But these best practices are what people do for their employees. The bad actors, by contrast, are disproportionately and particularly in my home state, using undocumented workers who in fact have no ability to report that they are in fact being abused until or unless
▶ 0:24:53they become sick and then it becomes public knowledge. These opportunistic plaintiffs though are not seeking to shut down the bad actors. As a matter of fact, the bad actors often are not even sued or if they are, they simply roll up and go away. What they're doing is going after companies who may not even have seen the slab, touch the slab, or in any way process the slab.
▶ 0:25:22Literally companies that bring product in in bulk uh often by ship or rail and then put it onto a truck and disperse it to people who do fabricate it or who do sell it to fabricators are the are the target. Why? Because they have money.
▶ 0:25:43This is not a new practice, but it is a practice that is in fact causing a bankruptcy uh and a reduction in those who are operating legally. If you eliminate the people that are are uh operating legally and using best practices, there's no question at all you by definition are empowering those who will do it clandestantly.
▶ 0:26:08In my own district, some uh uh 70 or about a 100 miles south of Congressman Carrera's district is the Mexican border. It is fairly easy to process over the Mexican border and bring the product back duty-free.
▶ 0:26:25Which means if the legitimate players who are playing by the rules and investing vast amounts of money simply export these bad practices south of the border where the kind of protection that exists in the US by law does not. They will simply be having many people in another country injured. This and other areas are the reason that we're trying to both go after the bad actors.
▶ 0:26:50And today in this hearing, we will hear from those who are being impacted in their small or medium-sized businesses by being a even though they are either using best practices or in fact um have uh have have not even touched the material.
▶ 0:27:14Uh, I'm going to play a short video to set the the stage for what we've been talking about for everybody and then I'll recognize the ranking member
▶ 0:27:33for everyone. This this is an example of a machine where both water are being used, the water is being reclaimed, but most importantly, no person is there. It's completely sealed. So, it's a double safety capability. Silica, a common component in many stone surfaces, becomes hazardous when improperly [music] cut, ground, or polished by releasing fine dust that is harmful when inhaled.
▶ 0:28:00Whether [music] using hand tools or fully automated machinery, wet processing is one of the most effective engineering controls to manage silica dust by using water to prevent [music] dust from becoming airborne. Regardless of size and equipment, every stone surface fabrication shop must adhere to all federal and state OSHA regulations and requirements, especially in regards to resperable crystallin silica, following wet cleaning protocols, using appropriate personal protective equipment, ensuring proper ventilation, training workers, and maintaining
▶ 0:28:30a compliant air testing program. Water is key for a safer work environment. Waterfed hand tools help manage dust during cutting, grinding, shaping, and polishing. The right volume, quantity, and delivery are critical, and a robust water reclamation system ensures water is efficiently reused within the fabrication shop. Beyond dust suppression, wet processing reduces tool wear, improves product quality, and keeps the workspace cleaner.
▶ 0:28:57When you implement wet processing and [music] diligent housekeeping throughout the fabrication process, you help manage silica dust and create a culture of safety for your most valuable assets, your people. Contact your local OSHA consultation [music] office directly or consult with an industrial hygienist for additional information. If you want [music] to learn more about Cambria, visit us online or contact your regional product representative.
▶ 0:29:36Cambria, where safety and quality are familyowned, American made.
▶ 0:29:46Okay. Would you play the second one? It's It's shorter. are masks that are not in fact protecting the person. There's no wet activity.
▶ 0:30:12And this this is one of those shops of which there are many many of them. Dr. Michaels, I'm sure, is aware of it. With that, I will recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee for his opening uh statement.
▶ 0:30:25Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Workers across the country are getting sick and dying of an entirely preventable disease. This disease is called silicosis and it happens when silica dust and other toxic materials are inhaled into the lungs over and over again. Toxic particles are trapped deep inside workers lungs, leaving them struggling to breathe.
▶ 0:30:55Silicosis has no cure. And it's a death sentence. Many of us from Georgia hear silicosis and we think of the men and women who worked in the mines their whole life. But this silicosis epidemic is caused by working with a material called artificial stone.
▶ 0:31:18In other words, fake And it makes workers sick faster and Doctors are seeing patients in their 20s and 30s, men with families and young children so sick that they require double lung transplants. So sick that they can no longer work and no longer provide for their families.
▶ 0:31:46So sick that they slowly and painfully suffocate to death. Fake stone produces dangerous toxins when it's cut. And there's no way to use an art a fake stone slab without cutting into it.
▶ 0:32:08So artificial stone or fake stone has a higher concentration of silica and the particles it produces are smaller which can evade safety standards on the books for handling products like silica. So why are we having this hearing today? we must be here to talk about how Congress can protect workers from artificial stone silicosis.
▶ 0:32:39Maybe we're here to talk about how the workplace safety standards currently in place aren't doing enough to keep fake stone workers healthy. Not that either. Perhaps we're here to discuss how we can make it easier for stone fabrication workers to unionize so that they can negotiate better health and safety protections for themselves.
▶ 0:33:04So, if not to address the problem of workers being poisoned on the job, why did my colleagues across the aisle call this hearing? Apparently, it's to give a handout to a millionaire friend of none other than Donald Trump.
▶ 0:33:25The bill behind today's hearing would give blanket immunity to fake stone manufacturers and suppliers, preventing injured workers from seeking justice in court. It would dismiss the hundreds of cases pending against these manufacturers and Congress would make a multi-millionaire CEO make that millionaire CEO's problems go away just like that.
▶ 0:33:55While the workers who cut, grind, polish, and install this dangerous product struggle to make ends struggle to stay alive. Actually, for those of you who are saying someone else is to blame, that employers are the real or uh real villains. Our courts determine liability all the time.
▶ 0:34:23People petition the court, have their grievances heard, and a judge and jury consider the evidence, and a judgment is are asking for a different scenario. They want to unlevel the playing field even more. One where the deep pockets go to Congress, Congress makes a snap judgment, and the big businesses never have to go to court again.
▶ 0:34:55That's not how the justice system is supposed to work, ladies and gentlemen. And I condemn the blatant misuse of this committee to shield corporations at the expense of the American worker. I am not here to give artificial or fake stone manufacturers a bailout.
▶ 0:35:16I'm here today for Mitchell Bolwear, a Georgia resident who's owned and worked at a stone fabrication shop for over two decades. Mitch and his son Jacob, who started working in the shop as a teenager, have both been diagnosed with Because of shortness of breath and constant fatigue, Mitch is no longer able to work.
▶ 0:35:43Workers like Mitch and Jacob have every right to go to court and ask for justice from those who caused them harm. and it is unconscionable to propose that we take that right away from them. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for calling this hearing, not because I support this bill, but because this hearing has provided the opportunity to tell the stories of workers like Mitch and Jacob.
▶ 0:36:13Workers who deserve our attention and our respect. And they are dying. and they deserve the opportunity like everybody else working in this country to bring their case to court. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 0:36:28Gentleman yields back. I now recognize the chairman of the full committee for his opening statement.
▶ 0:36:32Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It doesn't look fake to me. It looks pretty real. This idea this is some fake stone. This is a real industry where we got real problems going on. Everyone wants to protect workers, but you don't want to drive a 30 billion dollar industry out of our country, which is where this thing is headed. So, I appreciate the chairman having this hearing. Appreciate the witnesses who are going to testify and I look forward to their testimony. With that, I yield back.
▶ 0:36:54The gentleman yields back. Now, recognize the ranking member of the full committee for his opening
▶ 0:37:01Thank you very much, Chairman Isa, and thank you to our witnesses for joining us today. Um, the House Judiciary Committee, of course, is not a jury. We're not a courtroom. And when uh we do our work right, we're facilitating the proper execution of the law and the protection of the rights of the people in courts um across the land. That's our proper role. Um I [clears throat] feel like we're somehow being invited to to be jurors today.
▶ 0:37:29But in any event, I'm happy to learn about a very serious workplace related injury that's taking place in the country. Acute silicosis is a disease that renders your lungs useless. You struggle to breathe as fluid fills your lungs up, cutting off your oxygen supply. There's no cure for it.
▶ 0:37:52Um, [clears throat] if you don't get a million-doll double lung transplant, you effectively drown on dry land. Even the lucky people who get an organ transplant can extend their lives only by a few years. Silicosis is a killer. It's contracted when workers who fabricate artificial stone inhale nano particles that settle in the lungs.
▶ 0:38:18They're so small and so plentiful in artificial stone that they can escape any respirator and evade any protections designed for avoiding harms from silica in natural stone like wet saws. Medical experts who treat silicosis patients agree that the only safe way to cut artificial stone is to wear a full hazard suit or to have machine-only fabrication. Neither of which is apparently yet technically or economically feasible.
▶ 0:38:48Now, I confess I knew nothing about any of this before this hearing was scheduled. But as I researched this horrid disease, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that her colleagues were suddenly focused on a severe health crisis afflicting workingclass craftsmen across America.
▶ 0:39:04I simply assume they were moved by the same headlines and articles I was reading, like one saying, "Southern California man with silicosis wins lawsuit against makers of artificial stone slabs or jury finds stone companies at fault in lawsuit by counter countertop cutter sick with silicosis. In California, workers who cut countertops are dying of an incurable disease.
▶ 0:39:34Alas, I'd fallen victim to magical thinking. Our colleagues were getting involved in this rather esoteric matter, not to help the workers, but to help the industry they work in and specifically the Trump mega donor who is the only major domestic manufacturer of this artificial stone and is working like Houdini to escape liability for any and all of the injuries caused by the business that he's involved in.
▶ 0:40:03We are here for one reason and one reason only. Because the jury system and because American tort law are actually working for the people who work in this field right now. The workers are getting extremely sick and courts are finding that artificial stone manufacturers are at least partially at fault for it. So what do my colleagues across the aisle propose to do? Do they want to ban artificial stone?
▶ 0:40:32That's what they did in Australia as an inherently dangerous substance. No. Do they think we should prosecute the artificial stone CEOs for a deliberate or negligent failure to warn workers as Spain did in 2023? No. Do they want to let our American court system do what it does best and hear claims on a case-bycase basis under the general principles of American tort law and products liability?
▶ 0:41:05no. They want, as I understand it here, and I would love to be corrected, they want to immunize the big primarily foreignowned manufacturers from being held accountable for the results of this process in our court system. Um, you know, I'll close with this thought, Mr. Chairman. There was a brief fleeting moment when our colleagues across the aisle um struck the pose of being the party of the working man.
▶ 0:41:35I remember it well. Uh Donald Trump promised in 2016, 5 10 years from now, we'll be a different party. You're going to have a workers party on the campaign trail in 2024. Now, Vice President JD Vance told a crowd, "We need a leader who's not in the pocket of big business, but answers to the working man, union and non-union alike." Even just two months ago, long after this fantasy had passed uh for most people, Vance said in an interview with Breitbart News, "We've got a lot of workingclass
▶ 0:42:06voters who frankly don't care what was Republican orthodoxy 25 years ago. They're pushing the party in a different direction." Well, my friends, um, if anybody wants to hang on to the fading embers of the idea that the GOP is the party of the working class, uh, this hearing should put an end to that fantasy.
▶ 0:42:27Immunizing employer co corporations who repeatedly, knowingly subject workers to the kinds of hazards involved in this process and then want to escape all liability. um is not an agenda that would be embraced by the party of the working class. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. I think the ranking member I I will note that the uh foreign manufacturers are outside the reach of the very courts that we'd like to have in force.
▶ 0:42:57Only a domestic manufacturer finds himself in that litigation. And with that, I'd like to introduce our And without objection, all opening statements will be included in the record. Uh we begin with Miss Rebecca Schultz.
▶ 0:43:16Miss Schultz is the chief legal officer at the company whose video we saw, Kimria, a family-owned manufacturer of courts products based in Minnesota. The products are used in homes, schools, restaurants, hospitals, businesses across the country. Mr. Jim Hayib is the chief executive officer of the natural stone institute an association of manufacturers, dealers and other stone industries.
▶ 0:43:47Um he also serves as executive direct director of the natural stone foundation a non are
▶ 0:43:56it should be institute also um a nonprofit organization that focuses on education advocacy and standard development and I will note at this point that we will we will be talking about manufactured stone a great deal but the standard even according to Dr. Michaels is a single standard whether it's uh natural stone or uh manufactured in a composite. Uh Mr. Mr.
▶ 0:44:25Gary Tawwa is the vice president of the natural stone resources. It's a family-owned stone distributor based in California. the company sells their products to wholesalers and distributors and is not a fabricator. Uh Dr. Michael, Dr. David Michaels. Dr. Michaels is a professor at George Washington University's Milin Institute, School of Public Health.
▶ 0:44:55He previously served as the assistant secretary of labor for OSHA during the Obama administration and as I previously said, was instrumental in the standard that we'll be talking about today. Uh before I begin their opening statements, I would ask that all witnesses rise to take the oath. And please raise your right hand.
▶ 0:45:19Do you solemnly swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that testimony you are about to give will be true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief. So help you Thank you. Please note that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. Um, in addition to other uh material you may want to submit, your written statements are already in the record in the entirety.
▶ 0:45:50So I ask that you stay within the five minute guideline. Uh the lights give you a good indication of green uh yellow and red. Uh even in California we know what that means. Uh, and that if you get close to the end, please summarize so we can close and move on. We'll begin with Miss Schultz.
▶ 0:46:13Oh, and there we always have to tell at least one person to push that little button. You got to be the person.
▶ 0:46:19It's because I'm first. Um, good morning, Chairman Isa, Ranking Member Johnson, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Rebecca Schult. I'm the chief legal officer of Cambria. Cambria was started in 2001 by the Davis family who leveraged their experience in cheesem to open the first domestic court slab factory in the small rural community of Lassour, Minnesota. This here is our product.
▶ 0:46:50Our industry and the many thousands of workers it employs, including 1,800 workers at Cambria, face a serious threat. Despite complying with all applicable law, including OSHA regulations, we are under attack from hundreds of lawsuits. The lawsuits are being filed by workers who have very tragically developed very serious occupational diseases, including silicosis.
▶ 0:47:20as the result of working at dangerous workplaces. This is unacceptable and the their employers must be held Cambria has no control over these third party businesses and their dangerous conditions. We don't own them and we don't operate them.
▶ 0:47:45But rather than hold the bad actor account, bad actors accountable, the lawsuits are being filed against dozens of innocent stone slab manufacturers. The wrong parties are being sued and the lawsuits are overwhelming good companies throughout our industry. That is why we support HR5437.
▶ 0:48:09A nationwide ban is also not the answer to dangerous fab shops clustered in Union representatives at last month's Cal OSHA standards board meeting, which I attended, opposed a proposed ban in California because they explained that fabrication can be done safely.
▶ 0:48:34The issue is the non-compliant workplaces and California jobs are on the line too. According to the data that Dr. Michael cited, 98% of the 481 cases reported by the California Department of Public Health are in Latino males. Please keep in mind there is only a handful of silicosis cases in the other 49 states.
▶ 0:49:02It's absolutely horrific that members of this vulnerable workforce in California are being exploited and exposed to indisputably dangerous conditions. And it's outrageous that these American sweat shops are not being shut down. What those of us in the industry know is that fab shops cut many types of stone, both quarried and engineered or what we call quartz.
▶ 0:49:32And when these stones are cut safely, workers are not overexposed to silica dust. But when the stones are cut unsafeely without water, the workers are overexposed to silica dust, often many times above OSHA's permissible exposure limits over an extended period of time. The problem is the process, not the product.
▶ 0:50:01We know courts can be cut safely. At Cambria, we own and operate three fab shops that serve several Midwest markets. 1,000 Cambria Fab Shop employees have spent more than 10 million hours fabricating over 650,000 quartz slabs without a single reported case of occupational disease. Again, we only cut our own product. It's exclusively quartz.
▶ 0:50:33This demonstrates that quartz can be fabricated safely. And as you saw in the video played earlier this morning, there are no hazmat suits or robots at our factory. Our workers are protected. We invite all members of the subcommittee and Dr. Michaels as well to come to Minnesota and visit us and see how we fabricate our SA slabs safely and that our employees are protected.
▶ 0:50:58The enormous resources required to defend against these lawsuits, coupled with the potential risk of nuclear verdicts, place an enormous burden on us. The legal fees for just one trial can be millions of dollars, and we are currently defending against 400 of them. Litigation overreach against the manufacturers and suppliers of stone will not fix the problem of the illegal shops in California. This legislation should be without controversy.
▶ 0:51:25It restores a foundational principle of American law that liability should follow fault. I look forward to answering any questions that you might have. Thank you.
▶ 0:51:37Thank you, Mr. Heap.
▶ 0:51:42Chairman Isa, Ranking Member Johnson, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today and share the perspectives of the natural stone industry on this important issue. And many thanks to Congressman Mcccleintoch for introducing this bill which brings fairness to the sellers of stone slabs. My name is Jim Heb and I serve as the CEO for the natural stone institute based in Oberlin, Ohio.
▶ 0:52:08The NSI is the leading trade association representing the natural stone industry and our membership includes many of the industry segments most directly impacted by this important silica issue. notably stone fabricators, stone distributors, criers, and tooling and equipment manufacturers. And the average number of employees for our members ranges between 20 to 30.
▶ 0:52:32First and foremost, we are deeply we care deeply about the safety and well-being of workers. The men and women who quarry, fabricate, transport, and install natural stone are the backbone of our industry.
▶ 0:52:47Their health and safety is paramount, which is why the NSI operates a robust, comprehensive silica and workforce training program, which is provided free of charge to companies across the nation, regardless of whether they're a member of our association. As a result, thousands of employees across the United States have been trained on silica awareness and best practices for reducing exposure.
▶ 0:53:16We are have also been extremely active in California operating facility tours, collaborating with Kosha and public health officials and so much more. However, despite our efforts and the efforts of so many, some employers continue to disregard the importance of safety for their workers.
▶ 0:53:35While we must continue to focus on workplace safety, we cannot ignore the plight of those companies which sell stone slabs, which in my industry are corers, stone distributors, and others. Today, their businesses are increasingly facing lawsuits for selling building materials. Selling stone slabs does not cause silicosis.
▶ 0:54:01It is the disregard for safety compliance when cutting and fabricating stone slabs that creates the risk and it is wrong to shift responsibility from non-compliant third-party employers. The vast majority of companies impacted by these lawsuits are in fact small to medium-size employers who asked me to be here today to help tell their story.
▶ 0:54:26The story of a distributor in California facing 45 lawsuits, rising litigation cost. Their insurance premiums have doubled. Now they're considering closing their business after 26 years and 142 jobs impacted. Or another who employs just 14 employees but are facing 40 lawsuits.
▶ 0:54:46They told me, "Why am I being penalized for another company who is not keeping their employees safe?" A distributor in Texas with 50 employees shared, "We feel like we have a target on our back. We aren't running the non-compliant company.
▶ 0:55:04This feels like a money grab." Another in New Jersey said, "We don't have any lawsuits filed against us, fortunately, but we've already been notified by our insurance company that they will be dropping coverage because of the silica issue." Another distributor shared, "We have 46 lawsuits filed against us. The financial burden is just so difficult.
▶ 0:55:26We're getting ready to let go 66% of our staff." Now, a tooling company with 30 employees shared, "We're going to go bankrupt if something doesn't change." So, I would note that while this bill does not address tooling companies, nor does it recognize fabrication companies of all sizes, small and large, who are doing the right thing, carrying workers compensation, collaborating with OSHA, and investing to keep their employees safe.
▶ 0:55:55I would love to find a way to recognize them as well. And finally, a crier in Utah querying natural stone said, "We are facing 20 lawsuits filed in California, and we don't even sell products into California." And the list goes on, all with the same outcome. Companies are being targeted in lawsuits for injuries incurred in someone else's facility. This doesn't seem right. In closing, government and industry collaboration must continue.
▶ 0:56:26Bad actors need to be shut down. More enforcement is needed. Trade associations will continue to offer training and other resources and let the party that is causing the injury be liable for that injury. I urge passage because it brings fairness in our legal system. And chairman, I would love the opportunity to work with your staff to bring forth some of the amendments that I mentioned and happy and thankful to be part of this conversation. Thank you.
▶ 0:56:55We always welcome expertise in our uh ability to legislate and I know Mr. Mcccleintoch would be saying that if he had the gavl right now. Mr. Tawa chairman is ranking member Johnson and members of the subcommittee. My name is Gary Talwar and I'm the vice president of natural stone resources a family-owned stone distribution company in Anaheim California facing 65 silicon lawsuits higher insurance premiums and mounting litigation costs.
▶ 0:57:23Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share the history of my family's business with you today and how the Silicon lawsuits are impacting not only us but the entire fabric of our industry on an issue we all take very seriously. It truly is an honor to be here today. I'd like to begin by telling the story of how my parents came to this country and built our business from the ground up. In 1980, my parents immigrated from India, choosing to come to America because they believed in the American dream.
▶ 0:57:50When they arrived, my dad took a job in my mom's uncle's warehouse, doing physical labor, lifting 100 lb bags of rice and doing whatever needed to be done. My mother was pregnant with my elder sister at the time, also working for him as a cashier. She was back to work 4 days after giving birth with my sister joining her behind the register in a portable crib. Soon after, my father took an entry- level job at Taco Bell and worked his way up to become a manager.
▶ 0:58:16By 1990, my parents decided to take the big leap and open their own fast food restaurant in Manhattan Beach, California. In 1999, my mom's brother in India helped my dad get started in the stone business. My dad essentially became the US sales office for the family stone factories in India, selling direct to large distributors across the country. I started working for my dad in 2002 during my school breaks. In 2005, we leased our first warehouse where I was actually our first forklift operator.
▶ 0:58:44By 2008, we expanded into the building next door. And in 2014, we moved to our current headquarters in Anaheim. Today, we have two locations in Anaheim. We distribute from a facility in Atlanta, and we import about 3,500 different products from 17 different countries. But most importantly, we employ 70 great people who we truly consider part of our family. In short, this is a story of the true American dream. That history matters because it explains truly what's at stake today.
▶ 0:59:13Silicosis is very serious but an absolutely preventable disease. Worker safety matters and no one is denying that. The real issue at the heart of this problem is unsafe workplaces, specifically fabrication shops that are not following established OSHA regulations. NSR is a distributor. We do not fabricate stone. We do not operate fabrication stops.
▶ 0:59:37We do not control the safety standards or practices used when stone is cut, nor control whether a shop uses wet cutting, ventilation, or PPE. Yet, distributors and manufacturers, many of them small family-owned businesses, are increasingly name being named in lawsuits for injuries tied to unsafe third-party fabrication practices. NSR doesn't even sell to fabricators. And like most distributors in our industry, our role ends when the slab leaves our warehouse.
▶ 1:00:07At NSR, we take workplace safety seriously and conduct conduct monthly OSHA trainings for our entire staff as well as annual OSHA audits, not just to confirm compliance, but to identify areas where we can do better. The safe fabrication shops follow OSHA regulations because it takes real commitment to employee safety to operate that way. It comes down to one simple question as a business owner. Do you want to invest in worker safety or not?
▶ 1:00:35Over the past week, I've spoken with friends and colleagues across the industry. Many who of them have been named in 50 and up to 100 different lawsuits. Several have already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars just trying to defend themselves while paying higher insurance premium renewals or not even being offered a renewal at all. Two of them told me they don't know how they can keep fighting because the legal costs and time demands are overwhelming. They're being forced to choose between defending themselves and actually running their small businesses.
▶ 1:01:05That's what brings me here today. I'm not just here for my company. I'm here to represent the very fabric of our industry. Family-owned businesses that were built with hard work, sacrifice, and responsibility. This past Saturday, I met with my dad at our office. He got emotional and said to me, "I remember starting our business on our couch, and now look at you. You're going to Congress on behalf of our industry." That moment really put into perspective what this hearing means, not just to us, but to so but to so many families whose livelihoods depend on these businesses.
▶ 1:01:35I'm truly truly honored to be here testifying before the subcommittee on behalf of our industry. My hope is that we can refocus accountability where it belongs on workplace safety, OSHA compliance, and the parties who control fabrication practices. Thank you.
▶ 1:01:51Thank you, Dr. Michaels. Good morning, Chairman Jordan, Ranking Member Rascin, Chairman Isa, Ranking Member Johnson, members of the Thank you for inviting me to testify. My name is David Michaels. I'm an epidemiologist and professor at the George Washington University Milin Institute School of Public Health. The views expressed here are my own and do not represent those of the university.
▶ 1:02:18From 2009 to 2017, I was assistant secretary of labor for the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the longest serving assistant secretary in OSHA's history. From 1998 to 2001, I served as assistant secretary of energy for environment safety and health, charged with protecting workers, the community residents, and the environment in around the nation's nuclear weapons facilities.
▶ 1:02:43Under my leadership, OSHA issued a long overdue and strengthened standard to protect workers exposed to silica dust. The message of my testimony today is very straightforward. Silicosis is a deadly, devastating, and thoroughly preventable disease. And the artificial stone fabrication industry is one of the most hazardous of all industries where workers are exposed to silica. There's a global epidemic of silicosis among these workers.
▶ 1:03:11Over the last few years, hundreds of these workers have been sickened by silicosis. Dozens have died or needed lung transplants. The number of cases is alarmingly high and growing rapidly. The enormous costs of treating these cases, including lung transplantation, are borne primarily by taxpayers. Passage of HR5437, would prohibit lawsuits against the corporations that manufacture artificial Lawsuits play an important role in public health protection.
▶ 1:03:41If lawsuits by workers with silicosis are prohibited, these manufacturers will make no effort to prevent more workers from dying or becoming disabled by silicosis. We should not allow the carnage to continue. There are safe substitutes that make equally fashionable Shifting to substitutes will result in no loss of American jobs. In California alone, in the last few years, almost 500 workers have been diagnosed with silicosis.
▶ 1:04:1227 have died. 52 have undergone lung transplants. And these are just the cases in California where there's a surveillance effort to detect new cases. There are undoubtedly thousands more cases across the country. Since artificial stone fabrication work is no different in Washington state, Washington DC, or anywhere else in the country, these cases are there. We haven't seen them yet.
▶ 1:04:37Now with so many new cases on the horizon, the artificial stone industry is asking Congress to prohibit lawsuits by workers sickened by their product. They blame fabricators who don't follow OSHA silica standard. The manufacturers know their product is being used unsafeely, but they do absolutely nothing to stop it. Other industries that manufacture hazardous products take a very different approach. They practice product stewardship.
▶ 1:05:05Responsible firms in high hazard industries consider the risks faced by downstream users of their products and endeavor to limit or mitigate those risks. Instead of asking Congress to protect them from lawsuits, burillium and chemical manufacturers work with downstream users to ensure workers are safe. And by doing so, they also protect themselves from lawsuits.
▶ 1:05:28when dozens of workers in microwave popcorn factories were diagnosed with a terrible lung disease, bronchulitis obliterins or popcorn lung it was called at the time caused by exposure to the chemical diaetil. The industry faced many lawsuits. It didn't blame the popcorn companies. No, it hired expert physicians to implement a national lung disease screening program and provide treatment for the sick workers. The firms replaced diaetil with a safer substitute. The result was a win-win.
▶ 1:05:59There are no more workers getting sick and no more lawsuits. The epidemic of silicosis in artificial stone workers was identified in Australia before we saw it here. Australia has not banned lawsuits. After careful study, Australia banned the deadly product. This forced manufacturers to use a safer substitute which they sell and their earn profits through these sales. The same Australian workers are still fabricating countertops.
▶ 1:06:26But unlike those workers in the United States who fabricate countertops from artificial stone and are at risk for silicosis, these Australian workers are able to go home to their families at the end of their shifts as healthy as when they started their day. Passage of this misguided legislation will ensure that this does not happen here. It promises to be a death sentence for workers who fabricate these countertops here in the USA. Thank you so much.
▶ 1:06:56Thank you. And with that, we will go to Mr. Fitzgerald for his round of questioning.
▶ 1:07:04Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. This uh hearing today reminds me of a lot of the other hearings that we've had in this Congress and previous Congresses when we uh focus on the specifics of maybe the industry and not focus so much on our broken system uh which continues to be exploited uh and leveraged in so many different ways.
▶ 1:07:32uh and the the stories that we've already heard uh are once again testimony to um you know something that this committee should be examining which is fixing the judicial system in instead of going after people that are caught up in it.
▶ 1:07:49Uh, Miss Chute Schul, I'd like to begin uh just uh from your testimony, you state that over the last 20 years, Cambria has itself uh successfully fabricated only uh Cambria Court slabs and has done so without a single reported case of a fab shop worker contracting silicosis or other occupational diseases.
▶ 1:08:15Um, you you also state that after more than 10 million labor hours, [clears throat] excuse me, in our fab shops, not a single Cambria Fab Shop worker has reported occupational disease in including scolosis. Uh, is that correct?
▶ 1:08:36Yes, absolutely. Um, and I should I should note for the record too, we started small. You know, the company was not the size that it is with 1,800 employees when it when it first opened in 2001. We had a very small fab shop with a single saw and we still controlled exposures to silica. Also remember the industry that we plugged into was the existing stone slab manufacturing and fabrication industry which cut quied stone as well which has varying degrees of silica content.
▶ 1:09:06Um, and one of the stones that's cut now and is most popular is called quartzite, which is a quarried stone like granite or marble where a big piece of stone is removed from the earth and then sliced into slabs. Um, and and that type of quarried stone has silica content ranging between 90 and 99%. And so it's just not true that engineered stone or quartz is the cause of these workers problems.
▶ 1:09:33Um and of course their plight is incredibly sad but until and unless these workplaces are addressed the illnesses will will
▶ 1:09:42So when workers follow OSHA workplace safety mandates the risk of uh silicosis or other occupational diseases is negligible at best. Is that correct?
▶ 1:09:54Yes. And we rely of course on OSHA, both federal and state OSHA to set the appropriate regulations and the appropriate permissible exposure limits for the products that we work with. And this is true for any workplace in America. We are all bound to provide our workers a safe workplace. And so at Cambria, we we do that in compliance with OSHA's regulations and we are able to control our employees silica exposure to below the action level, which is half of the permissible exposure limit.
▶ 1:10:22And those are the limits that were set during Dr. M's tenure at OSHA.
▶ 1:10:27How many lawsuits is Cambria currently facing over silicosis?
▶ 1:10:31Yeah, we're currently defending um approximately 400 lawsuits, most of which are pending in California state courts. While two have gone to trial, it's simply overwhelming to defend against this numerity of cases. And the chilling reality is that the lawsuits are doing nothing to address the workplace conditions. Going after the good manufacturers simply is not fixing the problem
▶ 1:10:56and um in dollars as a result. Any idea?
▶ 1:11:01What that number would be?
▶ 1:11:02Yeah. Of course, it's hard to estimate, but I can tell you that it costs millions of dollars to defend a case all the way through trial. And then of course there's the potential for a nuclear verdict. um you know, these workers are very injured and very sympathetic. And so when they go to a jury, um you know, it's it's a a perfect case for a products liability um lawyer to have the opportunity to show a very dangered endangered worker. They're very difficult to defend.
▶ 1:11:33Very good. So let's envision a world in which the trial lawyers win a few massive verdicts and businesses are now facing millions of dollars in litigation exposure. What does that mean for both the availability and affordability of stone slab products like uh kitchen countertops? Um Mr. Tower, I mean, what what are you guys anticipating could happen down the road?
▶ 1:11:56For a small business like us, we're just being hammered. So, the misconception in our industry is that big business makes up this entire industry, but in reality, 95% of our industry is family-owned businesses, and that's across the country. Um, we're not taking away from the severity of silicosis and how serious this is. Um, but it is ultimately we're out of control of of how it's cut and how it's processed.
▶ 1:12:23Now, if you take away quartz slabs altogether, there's still other stones that are being cut, cried stones that are being cut, those produce dust. If you're not controlling the the actual fabrication of these stones, they're still dust. If you breathe that dust, it still has silica. If if you're breathing in silica, the problem doesn't go away. So, as far as cost goes, you know, I couldn't even imagine a world where if stone went away and quartz went away, what are you putting on your kitchen countertops?
▶ 1:12:52So, I could I couldn't even answer that question.
▶ 1:12:54Thank you, chairman. I yield back.
▶ 1:12:58The gentleman yields back. We'll now go to the ranking member of the subcommittee for his opening round of
▶ 1:13:04Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Miss Schult, you work for the billionaire owner of Cambria, uh, Marty Davis, correct?
▶ 1:13:13I I'm the general counsel at Cambria.
▶ 1:13:16And, uh, Marty Davis is a well-known, uh, election denier and contributor to Donald Trump. Correct.
▶ 1:13:24Representative Johnson, I'm I'm not here on that topic today. I'm here to talk about stone and our industry and what we can do to try to keep
▶ 1:13:31Let me ask you about stone and the industry and fake stone. Um we give immunity for some medicines and some and uh those are highly regulated and uh they go to market and directly benefit people's health and we also give immunity to some defense contractors who are creating weapons for use in war to protect our national security.
▶ 1:13:58Um, are [snorts] there any uh national security implications to the manufacturer of fake stone, which your company, by the way, is the largest fake stone manufacturer in the United States by far. Is there any uh critical uh national defense uh contribution that the company makes with this product?
▶ 1:14:25Yeah. First of all, um this new term fake stone I'm unfamiliar with, but I
▶ 1:14:30Let me let me let me Is there any uh I mean this it doesn't cure any diseases or anything like that, does it? This
▶ 1:14:38Yeah, I I'm I'm here to tell you
▶ 1:14:40call it artificial stone. I call it fake stone. I don't think there's much of a difference. But let me go to Dr. Michaels. Dr. Michaels, uh, [snorts] in your testimony, you discuss how other industries that manufacture hazardous products take a very different approach than the, uh, fake stone industry. Um, you [snorts] call it product stewardship. What is product
▶ 1:15:06No, actually,
▶ 1:15:10Dr. Michaels, could you either get closer or turn on the mic?
▶ 1:15:13Thank you. Yes, excuse me. Yes. The term product stewardship is used widely in industry. The American Chemistry Council, which represents most major chemical manufacturers, has a responsible care program and they recognize that their products are dangerous, though many far less dangerous than the silica released by artificial stone.
▶ 1:15:32Um, and they say, "We will work with companies who buy our product to make sure they're safely." In fact, they reserve the right not to sell their product to companies that misuse their product. of workers will be That is a basic principle that um many companies follow and certainly this industry should follow. But obviously these u products are being sold to companies.
▶ 1:15:58Yes, they break the OSHA standard, but they know these the manufacturers know that's what's going to happen. In fact, hot off the press last night, the California Department of Public Health issued a new um dashboard that says the number of factories that have reported silicosis cases and it's 54% of all the fabrication shops in California are reporting silicosis cases.
▶ 1:16:24So, these aren't bad actors that chairman Isa is talking about. This is the entire industry and this is who Cambri is selling to. So when you manufacture an inherently unsafe product and then you uh try to shield yourself from liability for it by blaming downstream uh users of the product like uh um uh people who cut it um and you offer immunity
▶ 1:16:55to the manufacturer. What does that do to uh to hurt the health and safety of uh American uh of of workers in America?
▶ 1:17:07It is extremely dangerous because the if manufacturers sold a product that was safer or just refused to sell it to companies where they know that workers are going to be hurt, we wouldn't have any more silicosis cases.
▶ 1:17:20So, and and you say that there is are safe substitutes for fake stone. Can you go into that?
▶ 1:17:27Yes, you can make equally fashionable, beautiful, artificial, you know, stone using a recycled glass product. It's called amorphous silica. It's a different silica. It's not uh respable crystalline silica that OSHA has a standard for. It is far safer. And the major manufacturers of the world other than Cambria sell this product in Australia. Caesar Stone, Con Constantino, they make this product.
▶ 1:17:56You wouldn't be able to differentiate the countertop made with recycled glass from the ones made with artificial stone and doesn't kill people.
▶ 1:18:06Well, that sounds like a viable alternative that perhaps litigation and hitting the pocketbooks of these manufacturers will uh bring about.
▶ 1:18:17That certainly is my hope. We shouldn't be discussing immunity from litigation. We should be discussing banning this product to make it safe for workers and that would protect the manufacturers and the distributors as well.
▶ 1:18:29Thank you. With that, I yield back.
▶ 1:18:31Thank you. Just to make sure the record was accurate, the ranking members said inherently unsafe product. Is that part of your testimony that the product in any form is inherently unsafe or that it it is possible to be safe?
▶ 1:18:46Uh, [snorts] thank you for asking that.
▶ 1:18:49You're off again. The yes the product made by Cambria as it comes out of our factory is a slab. It's not unsafe. But what has to be done with that product is to mechanically remove surfaces generate um silica that's coated with resins which is far more dangerous than natural silica by the way into the air and it becomes dangerous at that point. You know it's like tobacco.
▶ 1:19:16The a cigarette is produced by the factory. If it sits there on the table unused, it isn't dangerous, but if you light it up and breathe what's coming out of it, it kills you.
▶ 1:19:30Thank you. That wasn't just for clarification. We now go to the chairman of the flu committee, Mr. Jordan.
▶ 1:19:37Thank you. Uh Miss Schult, 400 lawsuits you're facing right now.
▶ 1:19:40Yes, sir.
▶ 1:19:41Uh any of the plaintiffs uh in those lawsuits work at Cambria?
▶ 1:19:44No. None of them.
▶ 1:19:45Not one of them. Right.
▶ 1:19:47Any workers at Cambria have silicosis?
▶ 1:19:49No. None of them.
▶ 1:19:50No one's No one's got the disease. No one's filing suit against you. Now, he uh the doctor just said, "Do do you guys cut, grind, and these slabs?" You're you're doing all kinds of work on At least that's what I saw in the video. Is that right?
▶ 1:20:04That's right.
▶ 1:20:04How many people work at Cambria?
▶ 1:20:07No one's got it. No one's a pliff. How about you, Mr. Tawwar? Any of your employees pliffs in these lawsuits? It's how it's mostly happening in your state if I if I got the
▶ 1:20:15No, sir. Zero.
▶ 1:20:16Zero. Any of them have any problems?
▶ 1:20:19You handle the same product that Cambria handles. Is that right?
▶ 1:20:21Yes, sir.
▶ 1:20:22Yeah. And isn't it true, Miss Schult? That you got a university because Dr. Dr. Michael said, "You guys are the bad guys. You should stop altogether." But I think you got a place where you actually train people to do what you're obviously doing and no one's getting hurt. The same thing with Mr. Tawwar and his familyrun business. You're training people how to handle this product appropriately. Is that
▶ 1:20:45That's right. And Cambria University started in 2005 as a learning and knowledge exchange center for stone fabricators and installers.
▶ 1:20:5220 years ago, you started telling people, "Here's how you do it. We got 1,800 employees." You've had probably people work for you and retire. No one gets a disease. And yet Dr. Michael says you should go out of business.
▶ 1:21:05That's what it sounds like.
▶ 1:21:06That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Just do it the right way. That's all we're saying, right? All right, Mr. Heap. How about you? How about the other folks that you represent? Are they doing the same thing that Mr. Tawwis's familyrun business is doing and Cambria is doing? Are they doing it that way as well?
▶ 1:21:21I I will tell you that there are a lot of fabricators that are operating compliant shops. They're bringing OSHA in every year. Many are now doing medical surveillance of their employees. And there's outrage around the good fabricators as well that a few bad actors are causing this. Now, is there any uh the is there any indication that the the trial bar bringing these suits are working with these few bad actors?
▶ 1:21:50This sort of some organized operation to go after Mr. Tawwar's familyrun business in Cambria. Is that have you seen that uh Mr. Heap in your industry? What I've seen is that there are a lot of small to medium-sized companies who are selling slab material now wondering if they're going to be in business in the future because of the weight of these lawsuits. All right. Um, now I I think I got this right.
▶ 1:22:16This is primarily happening in California or how many of the 400 suits are in California? Uh, Miss Schult
▶ 1:22:2295% of them.
▶ 1:22:2395%. And I think he say if I I may may not have heard this right, but I thought you talked about the unions in California don't want what Mr. Michaels is suggesting. Is that right?
▶ 1:22:33Oh, that's right.
▶ 1:22:33Yeah. Because I heard the ranking member talk about we need to be workers and unions. Fine. But they don't want this stuff put out. They don't want you put out of business. They want to do this in the right way. Is that accurate?
▶ 1:22:43Absolutely. Yes. They do it safely and they know that it will cost jobs if there was a ban of this product.
▶ 1:22:48Yeah. That's why Mr. McCcleintok's legislation makes so much sense. I will yield uh the remaining minute and a half to the guy who sponsored uh the chairman of our immigration subcommittee uh the remaining time for him to u ask some
▶ 1:23:01Gentleman's recognized.
▶ 1:23:02Well, thank you m Miss Schultzy. You testified your single company's facing about 400 lawsuits mainly from California. What control did you have over the practices that caused these
▶ 1:23:13Absolutely none. But of course,
▶ 1:23:14was the only role of your company to sell a safe and legal product to a willing buyer?
▶ 1:23:20Yes. Isn't that analogous to a lumber company being sued because they sold lumber to a builder whose employees were then injured because they refused to follow safety laws?
▶ 1:23:31And because of the illegal acts of of of this these buyers, have you been ordered to pay millions of dollars of damages that you did not cause and had no way to
▶ 1:23:43Um, California is a sanctuary jurisdiction. It controls Cal Ocean. It appears they're just turning a blind eye to lawb breaking by sweat shops that are breaking our immigration laws, labor, health and safety laws, exposing their employees to the dust that causes silicosis. And it appears that instead of enforcing the law against these illegal practices, the Democrats prefer to drive you out of business. So tell us, what's the future of your employees and their families if this injustice isn't corrected?
▶ 1:24:14Yes. our our US manufacturing jobs really matter. They matter to our our workers, to their families, to our
▶ 1:24:22And these people will all be decimated if u uh if if if this isn't corrected. And of course, if these sanctuary jurisdictions were actually enforcing the law against sweat shops that are breaking our immigration and labor and health and safety laws, workers in these shops wouldn't be injured in the first place. Am I correct?
▶ 1:24:38Well said. Well said.
▶ 1:24:40Right. Right. If their employers followed the law, they would not be sick. Silicosis is preventable.
▶ 1:24:44I thank the G.
▶ 1:24:47Excuse me. Um, excuse me. Chairman Jordan misqued me or made a misstatement about what I said. May I correct that?
▶ 1:25:02Well, Chairman Jordan said, "I want Camry to go out of business." That is absolutely not the case. I would like them to sell a safer product or ensure that their product is
▶ 1:25:10change their entire business. That's
▶ 1:25:13Well, every other major
▶ 1:25:14change what you're doing, even though it's safe, even though there's no plaintiffs, even though no none of their employees has silicosis, but change everything you're doing. Such a deal. Such a deal. The the smart professor is telling Camber telling a business that has operated safely. Such a deal. You're telling them what to do.
▶ 1:25:30Uh, you and I clearly disagree.
▶ 1:25:32No, no, no. That's the fact. That's what you testified to. That's why I said it that way.
▶ 1:25:36No, I said they can. Other major manufacturers have all shifted to a different product that's safer and Cambria can do the same.
▶ 1:25:46Guess what? We want you to change. You can't be in the lumber business anymore. That that's the same argument. It's ridiculous. It is ridic. Just do it
▶ 1:25:55Dr. Michaels, are you satisfied you were able to get your answer in?
▶ 1:25:58Uh, it's on the record. Thank you so
▶ 1:26:00Thank you very much. And with that, we go to Who do we have next? Miss Ross. Oh, the ranking member, Mr. Chairman, thank you very kindly. Um, well, um, uh, you can stay in a business that is inherently dangerous if you want to. Uh, the chairman's right about that, but you've got to follow the law when you do it. Now, as I understand it, Dr.
▶ 1:26:27Michaels, and please clarify this for me because again, we're not a jury. It's it's starting to sound like people are making closing arguments before a jury here. uh we just want to make sure the law is being properly enforced. Okay, here's what I understand is going on. Miss Schultifies and to my mind perfectly honestly that uh they've not had no cases from the fabricators that they work with within their own business of silicosis.
▶ 1:26:53They've not been sued by their own fabricators, but they weren't sued by fabricators. They they weren't sued as a fabricator. they were sued rather as a seller and a manufacturer because there's a whole different apparatus of law that applies to manufacturing something putting it into the stream of com commerce and selling it to people.
▶ 1:27:16Now, as I understand it, they were held liable in cases because they did not comply with the duty of care and there was a failure to warn. In other words, they were selling to people without warning of the inherently dangerous properties of their product. It's like your example of the cigarettes. Cigarettes are perfectly safe until someone smokes them. Well, if you're the manufacturer of cigarettes, you know, people are going to smoke them.
▶ 1:27:43And of course, Cambria understands how their product is going to be used and that it is going to be part of a construction process, but they have not engaged in the proper reasonable failure to warn. they don't like the consequences, which is that they've been sued for it and they've been held liable in court. I don't know what it is we can do about that. If you want to change the laws of product liability, if you want to change the laws of failure to warrant, go ahead and change them. change tort law.
▶ 1:28:13But don't come to the Congress and expect us to essentially destroy the tort laws of 50 states in the country by giving immunity to one business because it happens to be owned by a friend of Donald Trump's who's a a billionaire Republican donor. I come on this is like ridiculous what we're being asked to do. Which is why we're getting letters from the American Lung Association telling people not to support this. the AF AFL CIO has sent out um a message about this.
▶ 1:28:43Now um to be clear, Miss Schul, let me just give you a chance to answer what I just said. Um do you you talked about Cambria University where you educate on the proper uh methodologies for using your product? Is that right? Is that what that does?
▶ 1:29:03Um it's broader than that. It's really a knowledge and learning exchange center where stone fabricators and installers from around the country can come together and share best practices. And of course,
▶ 1:29:13so are your buyers required to go through that process?
▶ 1:29:17No, but we we
▶ 1:29:18So you're selling you are selling to the bad apples you're denouncing today basically. No, you're not. Well, I can tell you. Yeah. Um, there are 400 cases, so I can't speak to all of them, but for the two cases that went to trial, including the one where Cambria was found liable, Yes. and has a $10 million judgment against it, even though the employer was was responsible for 70% on the verdict form.
▶ 1:29:40And you were found responsible 10%. Is that right?
▶ 1:29:42We never contracted with that employer to sell slabs to him. Same thing with the second lawsuit. We're facing lawsuit. you were the you were the upstream supplier that got down to them. But in any event, that that's what tort law is all about. We're not a jury. Somebody worked that out and said you were 10% liable in that case and that's what you ended up paying. So, but I don't understand exactly what your complaint is.
▶ 1:30:07They don't want to be sued.
▶ 1:30:08I mean, I nobody wants to be sued in America, but the alternative is that we have lots of people who are wronged all over the country who are injured and damaged. I mean,
▶ 1:30:17Mr. Raskin, may I explain, please? Thank you. So the intent of HR 5437 is to address the situation where third-party misuse is the cause of injury. So the
▶ 1:30:29is it any cause and not the complete cause but
▶ 1:30:33well there's the problem right there. In other words, you're basically saying you want them to take 100% of the wrap for it and you don't want to take any responsibility as a seller of it. But that's not what the law is in
▶ 1:30:45That's absolutely incorrect. Mr. Ras, if I may finish, please. Thank you. Cambria, according to HASCOM, identifies the potential hazard of resperable crystallin silica when stones are unsafeely cut in violation of OSHA's requirements. It's on our safety data sheet data sheet.
▶ 1:31:01I only have 9 seconds left. I Here's what I got to correct in what you're saying. You can't just pin it on the regulators. Okay? That's like saying if somebody drives and smashes into your car, but they weren't violating the speed limit, they're not guilty. Just because you are within the state's regulatory system doesn't mean you have not behaved unreasonably with respect to the rights of another person. That's why we have the tort law system. Otherwise, everything would just be criminal law and regulation.
▶ 1:31:31So, it's not enough to say, well, we've got OSHA out there. OSHA will take care of it.
▶ 1:31:37I apologize. I don't follow all of the the example of the automobiles, but with respect to cars,
▶ 1:31:42we don't sue car manufacturers when somebody speeds or drives drunk.
▶ 1:31:47Car manufacturers still get to exist even though people criminally
▶ 1:31:51Absolutely. But if the car is created with certain product deficiencies in it and there are liabilities in the way it's been constructed, the auto manufacturer and the sellers are all responsible along the way. That's exactly the situation you're in.
▶ 1:32:09I disagree, Mr. Raskin. It the the language of the HR5437 that's proposed is limited so that we're only seeking relief from these lawsuits that are being caused by the illegal misuse often times which might be criminal.
▶ 1:32:23No, you're looking for categorical absolute immunity in all of these cases.
▶ 1:32:27That's incorrect.
▶ 1:32:28So, so when would you be liable?
▶ 1:32:30If there was a genuine defect in the product that made it so that in normal use it was definition, there's no defect in the product, right? So, how could you ever be held liable?
▶ 1:32:42You You're basically saying you're not responsible for educating anyone
▶ 1:32:46That's not at all true. We do educate downstream and we take responsibility for what we need to do. This is a cop.
▶ 1:32:51Well, then a jury found you had not done it. A jury found you didn't live up to it. But
▶ 1:32:55that's incorrect. Mr. Raskin, I don't believe failure to warrant was even a claim or was even went to the jury in that trial. I'll double check and and confirm that in our my written testimony. But no, there was no failure to warn because people testified that even if they saw the label, they wouldn't do something differently.
▶ 1:33:12We know of situations where there are sick workers who have been diagnosed with silicosis, who have been to the doctor, who have been told they have silicosis, who are being deposed and literally leave the deposition so they can go back to work where they are overexposed to dangerous silica dust. This problem is much larger.
▶ 1:33:33all right. You described it as as a couple of bad apples.
▶ 1:33:37If the gentleman if I've been very if the gentleman will uh it has something new I'll I'll I'll allow it but but let's be brief.
▶ 1:33:44Okay. Yeah. I'll I'll close with this question then because uh you've described it as basically a handful of bad apples although Dr. Michael said that that silicosis is showing up I think in 50% of of the cases. So that that he describes it as pervasive in the industry and that's a question of fact a jury would have to figure out. But if you know who these bad apples are if they are the illegal, you know, immigrant sweat shops that Mr. Mcccleintoch described so vividly, why do you sell to them?
▶ 1:34:14Why don't you just stop selling to those people and making sure it doesn't get down to them?
▶ 1:34:20Shields, you can you can answer that.
▶ 1:34:21Thank you very much. We have no interest in selling to unsafe shops. We there is no benefit to us. The the people who are making money off of the backs of these workers are the fab shop owners themselves. They are cutting corners by dry cutting. It costs more money to do this safely and to use water properly and to use the right equipment and to follow OSHA's laws. Those are the bad actors that are making money off of this.
▶ 1:34:48Cambria and other manufacturers and other members of the industry have been trying to work with the Kalosia board to try to get some sort of licensing or certification program in place so that we can only sell to certified licensed um acceptable fabricators. We want that legislation. It was part of SB20 which recently passed it in California, but unfortunately that certification requirement was pulled from the bill at the last minute.
▶ 1:35:15We're doing everything we can to work with Kosha and other regulators in California to try to promote worker safety, to try to educate people in the industry about this problem. And the very reason that we're really here today is to help raise awareness to the problem and to seek relief from this onslaught of lawsuits that threaten our good American manufacturing jobs and jobs throughout our entire industry.
▶ 1:35:38Mr. Chairman, thank you for your patience. And it does sound like it's overwhelmingly a California problem. I hope you guys in California can work it out and I assume that you can. Thanks.
▶ 1:35:47I thank you both. We now go to the gentleman from Texas for
▶ 1:35:51Can we start the next hearing at 7 a.m. If everyone's going to have 10 minutes to talk?
▶ 1:35:56Uh the first three minutes of the last 10 were spent u talking about how you had no disclosure. You made no awareness to the consumer about any safety issues. Isn't it true that there are safety warnings that you all publish and spread and make sure people are aware of? What's that you held up?
▶ 1:36:15And here's an example. This is the safety warning label that's provided in English and in Spanish on all of the slabs that leave our Camry.
▶ 1:36:24That can't be right because the first three minutes of the last 10 were spent telling you how you didn't warn any consumers of anything. So, are you lying
▶ 1:36:31Oh, no. I And I I apologize. I think I was confused by the questions, too. Yeah, it didn't make any sense, did it? I mean, you very clearly make a point to say there are dangers involved with this product, right? I can't read it from here, but I suspect that's what it says.
▶ 1:36:44It says no dry cutting, no dry grinding, no dry polishing. The first thing,
▶ 1:36:48so the first three minutes of the last 10 before me were just a complete waste of this room's time because you very clearly make a point to let folks know there are safety issues here.
▶ 1:36:58Isn't that what you did with that sheet? That's what it says, right?
▶ 1:37:00We we want it to be very clear to fabricators. They should not dry cut. And if they want to dry cut, they shouldn't be in business.
▶ 1:37:07Well, I'm I'm sorry for all the misinformation that seems to be coming uh to whoever might be crazy enough to be watching this hearing today. Uh if they haven't turned off after the overtime, I want to go to you, Mr. Tawwir. Can you I've seen you writing down. Can you share with with us what's on your mind that you haven't gotten to say? [snorts]
▶ 1:37:26Thank you for the question. I'm just a little guy at this table, but I'm representing a huge, huge chunk of our industry that feels that we're put in a corner. And how do we have a fighting chance? Um, a couple of my notes I made, the cigarette example, there's a warning label on it. Even if you read the warning label, regardless, it's still bad for you, right? If you put a warning label on a slab, but you do it the right way, it's not bad for you. So that doesn't really apply to to our industry.
▶ 1:37:57Um, and another thing is, you know, say you take quartz away. It's just gone. You ban it. You you f you do what Australia did. They're still cutting granite. They're still cutting marble. They're still cutting quartzite. There's still dust. There's still silica. Um Dr. Michael said that the type of silica, the percentage of silica is different, but at the end of the day, it's greater than zero. It's a it's a even if it's 1% silica, there's silica in it.
▶ 1:38:20um if the shops that are cutting the wrong way aren't doing it right, it's still bad for them. And you know, in our industry, with with all due respect, it's common sense that if you cut it wrong, it's bad for you. Um so, yeah, those are a couple of my thoughts.
▶ 1:38:37Thank you, Mr. Heb. You know, I want to remind everyone that the numbers in California are rising. And every month, hot off the press, they will say the numbers are rising. We're over 400 cases right now. But you have to put it into context. The first 100 cases, between 10 to 12 of the first 100 cases were from one company. Let that sink in.
▶ 1:39:04Less than 15% of those first 100 employees were covered by workers comp. It is it is inappropriate to say 50% of the fabrication facilities in California have a silicosis case. Those numbers are being taken out of context. A lot of those numbers are coming from a select few number of companies. So we just have to put that in perspective. Is there a perceived epidemic? Absolutely.
▶ 1:39:32We have got to focus on getting shops doing operating in compliance with OSHA. But it is not fair to while we're working with trying to get more fabrication shops to be in compliance that companies like Garry's and so many others that I spoke about are wondering if they're going to be in business next year.
▶ 1:39:54Well, I appreciate you. I um sorry for what you're going through. I hope we get this fixed and I yield my remaining seven minutes to the chairman. Uh, I think I think he meant me, but uh, I just want to ask one quick followup and and whoever feels most qualified. If you don't have workers comp in California, aren't you breaking the law? How do these people not have workers Mr. He
▶ 1:40:20you know in in California there is a fund that is established by the state that will pay the medical expenses
▶ 1:40:28when somebody is illegally employed
▶ 1:40:31illegally employed and and yes I mean the fabricators that are that are up in arms about this are just saying just hold everybody accountable to operate as a legal business. So if the state were enforcing against these people aggressively, there wouldn't many of these people wouldn't have received those uh that disease because they would have been in a protected environment.
▶ 1:40:53That's what we want is we want those employees in a protected environment.
▶ 1:40:56Thank you, Mr. Negus.
▶ 1:40:59Thank you uh Mr. Chairman. Thank you all of our witnesses for being here. Thank you for your testimony uh as we consider the legislation from uh my colleague from California. Miss Schult is it Schulty or Schulty?
▶ 1:41:12Schult is fine.
▶ 1:41:13Schult is fine. That's hard. My neg is tough to pronounce. Um help me understand. I want to just kind of paint a broader picture. Is it correct to say that there is only one largecale quartz slab producer in the United States of America domestically manufactured? No, that is
▶ 1:41:34That's untrue.
▶ 1:41:34Yeah, there are plants in um Tennessee and there are plants in Georgia. There have been plants in Florida. Sure. Um LG, also known as LX, Houses.
▶ 1:41:46There's Doll Tile, which is a subsidiary of Mohawk Industries.
▶ 1:41:49And do those Let me put it a different way. In terms of market share, I guess it's so it's your contention that these the other companies that you're mentioning have similar market share as you do.
▶ 1:41:59Um I'm not I'm not saying that. I'm not
▶ 1:42:01Yeah. I I guess my let me let me take a step back because I don't think this is something that your company would deny. You are the largest largecale quartz slab producer in the United States. Is that false?
▶ 1:42:17I I believe it's true that we produce more domestically correct
▶ 1:42:22made quartz than any other company. But I would note that the other companies that I mentioned also do import products. So it's difficult to
▶ 1:42:29Yeah. But I'm talking about domestic manufacturing. I mean, I don't I my assumption is something you'd be proud of. I don't it's not something you would, you know, would be avoiding that you all produce more domestically largecale quartz slab than any other company in the United States.
▶ 1:42:45I I think that's right.
▶ 1:42:46Okay. And this bill would give you immunity, your company, I should say, the company you work for, immunity on the grounds that you've described. And I was watching some of your testimony uh here in the judiciary room. That's correct. Right.
▶ 1:43:01Um, only with respect to third party misuse of the product during the fabrication process.
▶ 1:43:06Got it. What other industry has the type of immunity as a matter of federal statute that you're seeking here?
▶ 1:43:15That's a good question. I'd say what other industry that's as important as a building materials industry and the stone industry with thousands.
▶ 1:43:23No, no, I'm not. It's not a rhetorical question. Sorry.
▶ 1:43:25Under this kind of threat of litigation,
▶ 1:43:27Miss Schult. It's not a rhetorical question. I'm asking you, you're here on behalf of your company. Yes. Asking the United States Congress to pass a law that gives your company and other companies like yours immunity under federal law from litigation by, you know, countless citizens across the country as we've heard. I'm asking you, are there other statutes that you are trying to emulate here? Other types of immunity that have been given to other industries that you're you're tech you're seeking to emulate?
▶ 1:44:00The situation here is that
▶ 1:44:02is there are none. I I don't I'm trying to under the answer is either I don't believe there's any other industries that have this type of immunity and so here's why we'd like to convince the United States Congress to give us immunity or the answer is no. These are the other industries that have similar product liability immunities.
▶ 1:44:23So the other examples of immunity, you know, without speaking to whether they're analogous or not, could include things um like the airline industry after the terrorist attacks where um for example, and there may be others, and I'm happy to address that in my written
▶ 1:44:39Okay. Well, I I would love to be able to review written responses from you and perhaps the other witnesses because as I understand it, the other examples are few and far between. the gun industry which has secured liability protections from the United States Congress, right? The defense industry and in under certain circumstances vaccines.
▶ 1:45:04So, guns, bombs, and luxury kitchen countertops, slab, quartz products. that that that's the the list that this august body will have built in terms of giving immunity to different industries. I I don't really understand I I understand the arguments you're making, Mr.
▶ 1:45:28Schult, and and the other folks in the industry, and I I I respect your point of view, but I think these are arguments that are best positioned to be delivered to a jury, not to the United States Congress. You have ample opportunity to make the case to juries. In some cases, I suspect you will lose as you have.
▶ 1:45:47In other cases, you may win and convince a jury that there shouldn't be disproportionate liability on your particular industry or in terms of determining how liability uh will be, you know, sectioned out and bifurcated. But asking Congress to give you blanket immunity under the circumstances you're describing that this Congress is only afforded to the gun industry and the defense industry, which by the way, we should not have done in those instances, but that's perhaps a hearing for another day.
▶ 1:46:15if the chairman will indulge us on that front. I I just don't really understand what we're doing here. But
▶ 1:46:20No, I and I'm happy to explain and I I hear what you're saying. It's a unique request that we're making here today and that's because we cannot defend against 400 lawsuits. What's happening in California state courts is effectively regulation through litigation and it's having a nationwide effect on businesses across the country. So that's why we're here coming to Congress today.
▶ 1:46:41that the the overexpansion of very basic tort principles threatens our entire industry to extent that happened to other industries. It may also the gentle the gentleman's time has expired. I'm sure this will be further explored by additional witnesses. Uh we now go to Mr. Fry.
▶ 1:47:01Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think um I think the witness is correct that this is far beyond just a California issue. There's a company in South Carolina, Elite Courts, that is also facing similar lawsuits. And so while this issue is new to me and we're studying it, um really appreciate the the testimony of the witnesses. And with that, I'm going to yield to my good colleague, my good friend from the uh state of California, Mr. McClininto.
▶ 1:47:24I thank the gentleman for yielding. Uh Mr. A, uh we've heard that Cambria employs 1,800 family bread winners. How many depend on your uh industry We have um nearly 2,200 members of which fi over 500 of them are stone distributors like Gary.
▶ 1:47:44When you say members, you're talking about companies. How many how many Americans depend upon your industry for their livelihoods?
▶ 1:47:51Oh, they're clearly over a 100,000 easily documented. A
▶ 1:47:54and and these are mainly familyrun
▶ 1:47:57The vast majority of our industry is in fact familyrun businesses. Yes. and and what will happen to them and their employees if [clears throat] if and their families if this continues?
▶ 1:48:07If this continues and we allow the everything just to go through the courts as has been explained, there will not be businesses in existence 5 years from
▶ 1:48:17So a 100,000 families lose their livelihoods. Um, is this going to prevent silicosis injuries if these same sweat shops continue to be protected by sanctuary jurisdictions and simply switch to foreign manufactured product?
▶ 1:48:31That is the heart of the situation. These companies have avoided OSHA, avoided other regulatoratory agencies and they will continue to fabricate regardless of what the rules are. M
▶ 1:48:42Mr. Tower, so we we know that 100,000 American families will lose their livelihoods. We know that domestic manufacturing of this product will collapse, taking about $30 billion dollar out of our economy. We know that worker injuries will continue uh because the same illegal fabricators will simply switch to foreign manufactured stone slabs. Couldn't that be described as a lose lose lose policy?
▶ 1:49:09For a small business like us, we're already losing.
▶ 1:49:13Let's let's look at the other side of the equation. Uh who's enriched by this the the small fabricators that aren't following OSHA guidelines
▶ 1:49:23and and are undercutting their competition by deliberately breaking the law while sanctuary jurisdictions turn a blind eye. Is that a
▶ 1:49:31question? It comes to a simple question. Do you want to invest in worker safety?
▶ 1:49:35Obviously, the sanctuary state of California is not interested in enforcing our labor laws that require workers comp coverage. Uh they're not interested in enforcing our immigration laws that forbid hiring illegal aliens. Uh they're not interested in our health and safety laws that require the safe fabrication of this product as as of of legitimate businesses employ. Um the ranking member wished us luck in dealing with this this attitude and and I appreciate that.
▶ 1:50:05Um but doesn't this affect the entire country and not just
▶ 1:50:10Oh, absolutely. This is this is a a a problem that the entire country is facing. Um I said at in my opening that our industry is really made of small businesses of family businesses and what this is doing is wiping everybody out. We're not saying silicosis is not serious. It is absolutely a serious problem. We just want it to be taken care of where it's actually happening. I'm a small business distributor.
▶ 1:50:37Once a slab leaves my building, I don't control who cuts it or how they cut it. I follow OSHA regulations. I do an annual audit myself to make sure we're in compliance because we spend the money and we invest in worker safety.
▶ 1:50:50And and when and you've testified that when those safety regulations are followed by legitimate businesses, there are no silicosis injuries.
▶ 1:51:00None that I know of or none that I've heard of. Uh, and so, so, so this is entirely because we had sanctuary jurisdictions simply refused to enforce our existing health and safety laws. Is is is is that essentially what's happening here?
▶ 1:51:12I I believe so.
▶ 1:51:13And instead, they want to sue your industry out of business and put 100,000 American families on the bread line.
▶ 1:51:20Honestly, I would put it as much higher than that. And a lot of today's discussion has been about the manufacturer. And it's a serious problem the manufacturer is facing. But the small businesses in this country, we're facing a much much bigger problem because it it affects hundreds of thousands of families. I wouldn't put it at a hundred. I would put it at hundreds of thousands of families and
▶ 1:51:40because of the spin-off. Yeah.
▶ 1:51:41Exact. And we I've talked to business owners across the country and they don't know how to handle this.
▶ 1:51:46Well, so much for the warm embrace of collectivism. I yield back and thank the gentleman again for yielding his time. And the gentleman yields back. For what purpose does the ranking member of the subcommittee seek recognition?
▶ 1:52:02I have some unanimous consent request.
▶ 1:52:05I'd like to introduce recognized.
▶ 1:52:07Thank you. I'd like to introduce for the record a letter from doctors Jane Fazio and Stfali Gandhi, leading researchers and physicians from California opposing HR 54.
▶ 1:52:19Without objection. So ordered
▶ 1:52:21and explaining artificial stone cannot be fabricated safely. I also ask unanimous consent to introduce a letter from the American Public Health Association opposing HR 5437.
▶ 1:52:33Without objections are ordered.
▶ 1:52:35I ask unanimous consent to introduce a January 13, 2026 letter from AFL CIO to this subcommittee which highlights how quote this bill would make it safer for dangerous workplaces without objection order. End quote.
▶ 1:52:49Also ask unanimous consent to enter enter into the record a letter from the Association of Occupational and Environmental Clinics to this subcommittee which states that the claim that stone slab producers are not inherently dangerous is false and a distortion of the facts and it and they oppose a
▶ 1:53:10without objection so ordered.
▶ 1:53:12With that I yield back.
▶ 1:53:13I thank the gentleman. I think I think you're we now recognize Miss Ross.
▶ 1:53:21Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman, um, for organizing this hearing. Um, I actually like being at the end because I've learned so much along the way.
▶ 1:53:31I I hope the gentle lady knows that others may come. You you never quite know you're at the end,
▶ 1:53:36right? So, um, so far two, uh, silicosis lawsuits against, um, stone slab manufacturers have made their way through court. In one, the jury found for the plaintiff and awarded the injured workers worker um, $52.4 million in damage, but in another, a jury ruled in favor of the defendant manufacturers.
▶ 1:54:03So, this doesn't always go one way, which is what happens when you go to court and you get the facts and you apply the law to the facts. And so far, as we've heard, there's around 500 other cases that have been filed and working their way through the court system. Um, and Dr. Michaels, it's true that many of these cases are not in California. there.
▶ 1:54:31I I even a nice little Google search during this test during this um hearing revealed that some have been in Colorado, in Texas, in Washington State, in Oregon State. Uh Dr. Michaels, are you familiar with those cases?
▶ 1:54:47No, I'm not.
▶ 1:54:50Um I haven't really followed the cases. I mean, the legal cases, that's of less interest to me. Mhm. Um, but have you heard about silicosis problems in other
▶ 1:55:02Yes, I've heard about silicosis cases popping up around the country. What's clear to me is the there is a system in California of a reasonably good surveillance system from Dr. Fosio and others who have weighed in here and the word has gone out and workers are being screened and that's why we have these hundreds of cases. In fact, I'd like to enter for the record um the statistics put out by the health department that 544% of fabrication shops in California have silicosis cases.
▶ 1:55:31If I can just add that. Okay.
▶ 1:55:33But we haven't seen them around the country because
▶ 1:55:36without objection all of your material will be placed in the record.
▶ 1:55:39But we haven't seen them that many cases around the country because no one's looked for them. We have no doubt thousands of cases if there are 500 cases in California.
▶ 1:55:48Okay. And um before he left, Mr. Noose handed me some information about a case in Colorado where the fabricator's small business um followed all the safety standards and had this wet cutting that we saw the video of and followed what happened. And um according to the information provided by Mr. in a goose. All the workers in the shop have developed silicosis.
▶ 1:56:19All of them. And um they are now facing a nightmare. And so this brings me back my initial statement about when things go to trial. When things go to trial, and I'll go back to Mr. Michaels and your experience at OSHA courts look at the different fact patterns in the different cases and render judgment based on those nuances.
▶ 1:56:48It may be that it's one of these bad actors that we've heard about, but it may be this fabricator in Colorado where they did everything right and you just look at all those facts. Is that correct, Mr.
▶ 1:57:02That's correct. In fact, it's very important that I correct what uh the chairman said earlier. The OSHA silica standard is not a safe standard. OSHA sets standards based on health effects but also on economic and technological feasibility. So just because you're in the within the silica standard from OSHA, it doesn't mean you're safe. And this particular type of silica crystalline silica that's coated with resins is clearly more dangerous.
▶ 1:57:30workers get silicosis much more quickly, younger, and they die more quickly than other workers who exposed to silica. Let me also since we're talking about OSHA, I have to say there's some rich irony here to talk about. If we only had more OSHA inspections, if we made sure these companies followed OSHA, the problem would be solved. You have a Congress here that is cutting OSHA as much as they can. The president's budget is wiping out OSHA.
▶ 1:57:58And beyond that, the co-sponsor of this bill, Mr. Mcccleintok's colleague from California, Mr. Biggs, is the primary sponsor of a bill called NOSHA, the No Occupational Safety Administration Act, it abolishes OSHA. So to say if for this Congress to talk about we need stronger OSHA protections and that will, you know, essentially save this industry is it's rich irony.
▶ 1:58:24Um and on top of that to have this Congress be giving immunity when we know that a product has um resulted in so many people having such a serious injury in the workplace. That's another rich irony and thank you. I will yield back.
▶ 1:58:43Of course. Thank you. Gentle lady yields back. I've got a couple of things. You have a UC.
▶ 1:58:47Would you see if it's okay?
▶ 1:58:47I'd recognize you for a UC first.
▶ 1:58:49Thank you kindly, Mr. Chairman. Um and uh this is uh from the Superior Court of California County of Los Angeles filed August 7th, 2024 finding as to plaintiff Gustavo Race Gonzalez for products liability. Failure to warn, we find in favor of the plaintiff against Cambria Company. So both in my colleague who chided me for raising the failure to warn that's precisely what the guilty verdict was about. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 1:59:16Okay. the uh uh
▶ 1:59:19and I apologize and if I may clarify one thing and I I was going to anyway is that our our failure to warn did go to the ver verdict uh to the jury in that first case is on appeal now and that's probably why I misspoke in addition to the the fact that it followed some statements about us never warning about anything at all which just isn't true so
▶ 1:59:37I never said that so please retract that too if you would
▶ 1:59:39okay uh we'll uh we'll let the record speak for itself but I thank the gentleman for placing that in the
▶ 1:59:44we will indeed
▶ 1:59:46um and With [clears throat] that, I'd ask unanimous consent that letters in support of this legislation, uh, including the American Tor Reform uh, the, uh, the National Kitchen and Bath Industry, that's hundreds of thousands of people over and above those, you're counting, the Natural Stone Institute, the um, the Granite Association uh, Inc., And
▶ 2:00:18then I'd like to also place uh into the record for reference uh the actual bill
▶ 2:00:265437 so that we all have it. I failed to do that in the beginning. And lastly, I want to place in the record from the Milin Institute uh school of public uh health uh a uh press release that is there a press statement that uh says David Michaels briefs Congress on new silicon dust st uh rule in which he says and I quote the previous exposure limits were outdated and
▶ 2:00:57did not adequately protect workers. Michaels commented when introducing his new rule. Occupational exposure to silicon dust occurs when workers cut, saw, drill, or crush concrete, brick, ceramic tiles, rock and stone products.
▶ 2:01:17I just want to make sure that your testimony in or your quote in that case is particularly there because of the both natural and manufactured that you spoke on at that time. And with that, I have the privilege, as the unanimous consent went, of recognizing for his own five minutes, Mr. Mcccleen
▶ 2:01:38I may not be the practice, but it was the unanimous consent. And if Mr. Carrera is here, he'll be recognized.
▶ 2:01:46The gentleman's recognized.
▶ 2:01:48Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, I want to make it clear, no one opposes health and safety regulations. Dr. Michaels the the opposition is to the combination of legislative, executive and judicial powers in the same hands. Madison called this the very foundation of tyranny. And uh one of the objectives uh of those of us who believe in the constitution is to restore those guard rails between those three very distinct functions of government.
▶ 2:02:14Uh, Miss uh, Schult uh, Cambria not only manufactures and sells to third parties, but it also fabricates product itself, does it not?
▶ 2:02:23Yeah, that's right. And our workers are protected when our when when we follow OSHA's regulations and requirements, which we do. And and our workers are safe and protected. And in fact, our CEO's own children work on the floor of our fab shops. And and this because you you you you uh fabricate according to all the health and safety laws and you've not had any injuries as a result of fabrication.
▶ 2:02:44That's right.
▶ 2:02:45The ranking member just introduced an article that contends there's no safe way to fabricate your product and we've heard uh from the Democrats that it's uh of uh dangerous. How does this comport with actual experience? Yeah, from our real world experience in industry fabricating exclusively court surfaces, we know that workers can be protected by following OSHA's regulations and controlling silica exposure to below the permissible exposure limit.
▶ 2:03:15And in fact, at our shops, we control exposures below the action level, which is half of the PEL.
▶ 2:03:21Mr. Are you
▶ 2:03:24we have many fabrication companies all over the country that are in compliance with OSHA with no cases of silicosis with employees that have worked for them for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. We have companies that exist in the Midwest that have been um have not had a case of silicosis in over 50 years. So it is it is really important to acknowledge that there are a few bad actors that are causing this.
▶ 2:03:52Also in California, as Miss Schultz already referenced, we as industry tried to collaborate with the state of California to set up a lensure program so that there would be a complete vetting process that only the good fabricators could in fact secure the product and prove that it's being fabricated safely. And all that SB20 did was say it's illegal to dry cut, which we support, but we want them to do the next step.
▶ 2:04:21And so industry will continue to be front and center helping government, working with government. But there are two issues here. The bad actors for fabrication and the impact of these lawsuits impacting companies like Garry's and many of the small employers that I spoke about,
▶ 2:04:38Mr. Tower, what have your experience?
▶ 2:04:43The the issue to us is it comes down to the same thing is we know it can be done right. If it's done right, there's no there's no problem. I think we've hammered that home. But as far as a small business, I bring product in, I put it in a warehouse, and I ship it out. Once it leaves my warehouse, I don't know who cuts it, how they cut it, or what happens. There's hundreds of maybe thousands of companies across the country, just like myself, that are being hammered with lawsuits. We don't know how to fight for our We're fighting for our lives, and we can't afford it
▶ 2:05:13Miss Schult, the equipment to protect your workers that we saw in the video looks rather expensive, is it not? Well, it it's the safety precautions are integrated into the equipment itself.
▶ 2:05:24but it's expensive. I mean, you have to you have to invest in in that shielded and and water protected system. Correct.
▶ 2:05:32So, the the shielded system is is not the key. The key is is the use of water and that can be achieved through small handheld devices and equipment and tools that are available to fabricators and we teach how to use those smaller saws at Cambria University. Well, I I assume Well, so why is it then that these illegal fabricators are not using this?
▶ 2:05:54I I I really don't know. It's um seemingly they're cutting corners. Um
▶ 2:06:00so so so they are saving money by not protecting their their workers with these these basic precautions and I assume that gives them a competitive advantage over the uh over the uh uh legitimate fabricators that are employing these processes. Yes, they're they're putting profits above people and then they get sued out of existence.
▶ 2:06:20And that seems to be the the side that the Democrats have chosen in in this fight, which I I find rather strange. Um the Democrats have repeatedly referenced Donald Trump because one of his supporters owns one of the companies, I assume that's Cambria, that's that that that's affected. Do you get the impression that a a lot of this is political and that some of our members are missing the big picture of what this is doing to the livelihoods and safety of tens of thousands of American
▶ 2:06:52I'm afraid so. And we should prioritize worker safety over politics.
▶ 2:06:57I thank the gentleman. Uh I'll note for the record that the general waiver that I asked for under unanimous consent, the minority did not understand the broadness of it. So in order to make things equal under uh the intent uh we will consider that I actually yielded to Mr. Mcccleintoch my five minutes.
▶ 2:07:17I now ask unanimous consent that we have an additional five minutes per side uh as a second round if the witnesses can remain that long without objection. So ordered and the ranking member is recognized for five
▶ 2:07:33Thank you Mr. Chair Dr. Michaels, I've heard arguments today that we should grant manufacturers immunity from liability because artificial stone slab products are not inherently dangerous when they enter commerce.
▶ 2:07:48Now, I don't believe it's Congress's job to litigate products liability cases, but since it appears relevant to this question of immunity, fake stone slabs have over 90% crystalline silica, toxic metals, and toxic resins in them, which generate poisonous carcinogenic dust during the fabrication process. Artificial stone slabs are produced solely for the purpose of alteration.
▶ 2:08:20Are there any uses for an artificial stone slab that don't involve cutting
▶ 2:08:27So, if the artificial stone product makes the air around it unsafe when cut, isn't that just another way of calling the product itself unsafe?
▶ 2:08:38Absolutely. Dr. Michael's uh medical professionals in Australia warned that it could become the next asbestosis without intervention. What do scientists mean when they refer to something as the next asbestosis or next asbestosis? And are they correct?
▶ 2:09:00Yes. I mean asbestous is a amazing mineral that's used as an insulator for fireproofing. It was very clear at the early part of the last century even before that that breathing asbestous causes a terrible lung disease we call the industry for many years tried to deny that to try to hide it um make sure studies weren't done but the result is that we had millions of workers exposed
▶ 2:09:30and huge numbers of them developed lung disease and lung cancer misotheloma other conditions eventually because of their um really poor judgment and not not warning people just selling it widely most of those companies were sued and actually they went out of business.
▶ 2:09:48They were found by juries over and over again to have essentially covered up what the problems were and not sufficiently warned uh these people who and we had tens of thousands of deaths as [clears throat] a result of asbess exposure. We don't want that to happen
▶ 2:10:05Well, what did the uh litigation response to uh the asbestos public health crisis um what did it uh result in? What were the ramifications?
▶ 2:10:18Well, it certainly it raised the issue tremendously and a lot of companies stopped using asbestous. The secondary companies, the companies that would use asbestous in other materials and gaskets and and brake shoes. They said we can't use asbests anymore. And they found substitutes. You know, litigation is like regulation in that it drives Companies that don't want to be involved in litigation find better products, safer products, and they substitute.
▶ 2:10:48And that's what will happen here when companies say this is it's too dangerous to use artificial stone. Let's move to a morphic silica, which is recycled glass. We'll make a product that's equally comfort, you know, beautiful, equally fashionable, but doesn't kill workers.
▶ 2:11:03Well, that would be a product that Mr. Taloir and his firm could distribute. Uh Mr. hive. All of his members could distribute. Uh it's something that uh Miss Schult uh your company could manufacture. Isn't that correct?
▶ 2:11:22A a safer product.
▶ 2:11:24No, our product is safe. The issue is when unsafe fabrication practices are used in violation of OSHA's laws. that the evidence is clear that engineered stone containing crystalline silica is too toxic to fabricate and safely install and education and enforcement alone will probably not be sufficient to curtail the escalating occupational health emergency that is being caused by this
▶ 2:11:55product. You would disagree with that statement?
▶ 2:12:00Yes. What needs to happen is the UN
▶ 2:12:02Dr. Michaels then Dr. Michaels would you disagree with that statement?
▶ 2:12:05I would not disagree with that you know, it can be done safely in an enclosed environment cost millions of dollars to set that up and we're not going to make new countertops for the country, [snorts] you know, in these very very expensive facilities. That's just not going to What would immunity do for this industry to the public health of this country and the cost to the taxpayers?
▶ 2:12:31It is all bets are off. There's no stopping the number of silicosis cases we'll see around the country. Putting aside litigation, the number these cases are being paid for by the Medicaid system, by VA, lung transplants cost over a million dollars each and we've got dozens of them in California already and they're being picked up by medical. So, it's going to impact hospitals, the public health system, and of course, it's going to make many people sick.
▶ 2:12:56Mr. Twell briefly because you've been holding up your hand.
▶ 2:12:59So, uh, Dr. Michael said that I could easily switch over to recycled glass, but in actuality, less than 1% of my sales are artificial stone or quartz, but that less than 1% is going to put me out of business potentially. And these cases have expanded to stone as well, not just artificial quartz. So, if you look at the hallways in this building that we're walking on, it's marble that also has silica. When you cut that, it's not a countertop. As Dr. Michael said, that's floor tile.
▶ 2:13:27When you cut that and you cut it wrong, that will have dust and it'll have the same effects, too.
▶ 2:13:34I'll now recognize myself. Uh, Dr. Michaels, um, in this statement I put in the record earlier, you didn't say manufactured stone. Uh you said uh glass, pottery, concrete products, uh sand uh in large quantity, uh marble obviously would be in there. All of these can exceed the OSHA guidelines if crushed or used incorrectly. Correct. Yes. Okay.
▶ 2:14:05So we get rid of this industry. We're not getting rid of concrete, sand, pottery, and the like. So really it is a question uh even in your opinion that what we have to do is ensure that OSHA standards are met on the job site. Is that right?
▶ 2:14:24That's a piece of it though.
▶ 2:14:26No no no that's that seems to be the piece of it is that u no one in compliant industries as far as we've heard in testimony today under oath no one has contracted this disease. And yet in those 54% of California job sites, the vast majority of them appear to be illegal, using illegals, in fact abusing uh primarily Latinos who have come into this country looking for work.
▶ 2:14:54They find work in these sweat shops and they're too desperate to say no. And I share the the union's objections to the idea that these unprotected workers are there. But are you going to protect them uh or anyone including concrete and other marble? Are you going to protect them by simply saying, "Let's sue the the the marble manufacturer, the concrete manufacturer." And I will say here today, Dr.
▶ 2:15:22Michaels, you appear to be supporting the idea of eliminating something that when you had the chance, you set a standard. And I'm sorry, but OSHA standards are based on safe in the manufacturers production including my own when I was a manufacturer we rely on uh those standards to make sure that we're below them the decibel level and everything else.
▶ 2:15:47I'm a big believer that OSHA guidelines when implemented do make the workplace safe and if they don't then it's your job to lower them. So I find it amazing that just a few years ago you set a standard and today the standard is zero. Unfortunately, um, Mr. uh, or actually, uh, Miss Schultz, because I have a couple questions for you. The standard of zero if you switched wouldn't be achieved in any product, would it? That that would be hard surface.
▶ 2:16:17Can I respond to what you've said?
▶ 2:16:19Well, I'll get back to you. Okay. Will will is is a standard of zero that Dr. Michaels is implying if you only worked with marble, you wouldn't meet that standard or at least people fabricating in in dry cutting wouldn't meet it. They wouldn't meet it in granite. They wouldn't meet it in in concrete. All of that is true. Right.
▶ 2:16:40Right. Workers are grossly overexposed through the dry cutting process.
▶ 2:16:44Are they currently suing to your knowledge the concrete manufacturers?
▶ 2:16:49Not the concrete manu
▶ 2:16:50but they are uh Mr. they are now getting into the other stone manufacturers, right? So, they're going after natural stone,
▶ 2:16:57going after natural stone as well.
▶ 2:16:59Okay. So the fact is although this looks and targets stone, the the reality is that with this committee probably has to take a good look at wood, metal, and everything else that has no adverse effect when used properly, but in some case can in fact be dangerous on the work site. And it is the example of the automobile, Dr. Michaels.
▶ 2:17:25The automobile is an incredibly dangerous tool when used incorrectly, isn't it?
▶ 2:17:32Okay. And yet, we don't sue the auto manufacturer when someone drives drunk and and and runs someone over. We We have a lot We might sue the bar that had some percentage of liability. Right. Sure. If you say so.
▶ 2:17:47Okay. And Miss Schultz, uh, my understanding is that you were held somewhat accountable for a non-disclosure and it's up on appeal, but wasn't it far less than 50%. Wasn't it not the approximate cause even in that case?
▶ 2:18:02Oh, yes. It was it was only 10%.
▶ 2:18:04Okay. So, when a jury flips a number and says, "Oh, we'll we'll hold you 10% responsible because you didn't sufficiently in their mind disclose something, um, at least on some occasion, maybe your manufacturer, you had 100% of the penalty because you were the one with the pockets, isn't it?"
▶ 2:18:24That's right. Under joint and several liability. So the the one of the problems here which is a general tort problem is you only have to be 1% onetenth of 1% but have deep pockets and or the other pockets disappear and you not only bear the cost of the defense but you bear the 100% of the damage. Isn't that true?
▶ 2:18:44Yes. For the economic damages.
▶ 2:18:46Well, I think this hearing has done a good job of making sure we understand why this important legislation in a industry is going forward. But that industry is the tip of what is likely to be a growing set in which this committee will likely have to come back. And with that, may I respond briefly? Um, yeah, we heard from uh Mr.
▶ 2:19:10Nagus and Miss Ross that there's cases in California of workers with silicosis who are exposed under the standard. That isn't surprising to me because OSHA standards are not safe levels. they're safer. But OSHA has to look at economic and technological feasibility. And we could not drive the level down to a purely safe level because the law doesn't allow that.
▶ 2:19:33In this case, we also know that the silica that comes from artificial stone is not like the silica that you get from co in coal mines where there silic there's quartz or in foundaries or construction sites because it's coated with toxic resins and other pigments, things like that that clearly make it even more dangerous. Furthermore, the OSHA standard that I issued in 2016 where that press release is from, the process began in 1997. We issued the proposal, I think, in 2013 or 2014.
▶ 2:20:03Um, this industry barely existed and the cases weren't there. We didn't have the research to include them and and I've allowed you to do that. But again, uh I noted all the other products that you said in this uh these products did exist. Concrete is not new. I'm a Californian. I've seen an awful lot of wet cutting of concrete as I drive down road improvements.
▶ 2:20:27Uh that wet cutting is an example that is being done because they don't want to have all that dust from the concrete in the air. So you set standards, the standards are met, but meeting the standard doesn't give you any protection from being sued. As a matter of fact, if you as Mr. Tawwa import a product or buy a product and sell it and never in fact fabricate it at all.
▶ 2:20:54Moving something that I could lick and it isn't going to hurt me that I could sniff that I could use as a cutting board isn't going to hurt me using that. In fact, he's not exempt even though he had nothing to do with it. This is like suing the car dealer, the car distributor, and by the way, the trucking company that moved it in and out. And you're saying today effectively, you should be able to do that. I understand the gentleman has a unanimous consent before we close.
▶ 2:21:22I do. It's the story of the uh Colorado uh family that owned the stone fabrication shop in Colorado that uh Congresswoman Ross referenced in her
▶ 2:21:34without objection that entire
▶ 2:21:36tells the story of how they followed OSHA uh standards and still everybody in the shop got uh sick with silicosis.
▶ 2:21:44Without objection, the entire statement will be placed in the record. And this concludes today's hearing. And I want to I do want to thank our witnesses uh for appearing before the committee and giving us a lively opportunity to understanding a major in uh emerging threat and one that concerns particularly California. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days in which to submit additional written questions for the witnesses and additional materials for the record and I know there will be a great many.
▶ 2:22:13Without objection, this hearing is objured.