▶ 0:20:05Committee on Financial Services will come to order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time. Today's hearing is entitled Oversight of the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the Federal Housing Administration. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for inclusion in our record. I now recognize myself for four minutes for an opening Good morning.
▶ 0:20:34I'd like to thank uh our secretary Scott Turner for being with us and applaud his work to reform the structure of HUD, refocus refocus the department on its core missions and roll back misguided Biden era rules and regulations. Today, our members will review HUD's work with Secretary Turner at the helm and discuss the department's future direction under his leadership.
▶ 0:20:59We find ourselves at a pivotal moment in our nation's housing landscape, one that necessitates thoughtful reform and cleareyed focus on the needs of the American people. Under the Biden administration, HUD drifted from its core mission, becoming weighed down by misguided regulations that stifled innovation and limited access to affordable housing.
▶ 0:21:21Several of these Biden era rules have been proven ineffective and counterproductive, which is why HUD is refocusing its policies and programs to deliver safe and accessible housing for the American people.
▶ 0:21:36We're witnessing rising cost, shifting demographics, and changing economic realities that demand a fresh Every event I attend at home in Arkansas, citizens tell me how shocking the impact of the Biden inflation is on their household budgets. In the Biden era, home construction, prices soared.
▶ 0:21:57Home financing jumped in the Fed's fight against their own policy eras joined by the Biden administration's fiscal Access to affordable homes and apartments continue to challenge American families driven by these high costs, exacerbated by a persistent shortage of housing supply relative to growing demand.
▶ 0:22:19Americans challenges are further compounded by the deficiencies in HUD's oversight framework and regulatory red tape that have contributed to limited housing inventory and reduced access to affordable housing in many areas across our country. These shortcomings underscore the need for bipartisan legislative action to reduce regulatory barriers and expand housing This committee has been laser focused on addressing the high cost of living and housing as a key component.
▶ 0:22:50Last month, our committee overwhelmingly passed the bipartisan housing for the 21st century act, which works to streamline housing development and affordability by updating outdated programs, removing regulatory roadblocks, and increasing local flexibility. I look forward to hearing more today, Mr.
▶ 0:23:10secretary about your views on this important While streamlining development is critical, these reforms must be paired with improved accountability to ensure that they deliver results. Strengthening accountability benefits homeowners and renters while also safeguarding taxpayers by ensuring their hard-earned dollars are used efficiently and effectively. Let's be frank.
▶ 0:23:35Biden's HUD failed in its oversight of our local public housing authorities between missing funds, unsafe public housing, and outrageous appalling landlords in the Section 8 voucher program. With your leadership, Mr. Secretary, I hope we can tackle this mess together. It's imperative that Congress work with HUD to make the necessary changes to the department's programs, ensuring they are responsive and effective for all Americans.
▶ 0:24:02This hearing is an opportunity to reaffirm that commitment and our joint commitment on both sides of the aisle to the principles of accountability, innovation, and responsiveness in government. I look very much forward to the hearing, the questions of our members and Secretary Turner's engagement with us on how we can pave a way for a stronger, more effective housing and urban development. I yield back the balance of my time. I now recognize the distinguished ranking member of our full committee, Mrs.
▶ 0:24:32Waters of California, for four minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:24:36Uh, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. After countless calls for hearings, warnings, and questions from committee Democrats, I'm glad this day has finally come. Secretary Turner, we had a good meeting in my office and uh we spoke about a lot of things. Uh, you told us you were taking inventory at HUD so it could better achieve its goals. Well, I told you I was going to work with my staff and take a look at the inventory that you have taken.
▶ 0:25:05Uh, well, um, this inventory that you have taken as host secretary and I found that it was completely inadequate. Homelessness is surging. High housing prices are locking millions of home own out of home ownership instead of meeting the national housing crisis with urgency or competence.
▶ 0:25:28It seems that you have made this crisis even worse and even Trump knows it now from day one uh you have worked from the inside uh to weaken HUD and Americans housing supply and I don't know and I hopefully through the question we will find questioning we will find out whether or not it was uh you or Elon Musk or what was going on uh that you fired so many employees immediately after taken office,
▶ 0:25:58you halted fair housing and civil rights investigations, making discrimination in housing as acceptable as it was in um the 1940s. Next, now I'm really really surprised you shuttered regional and field offices, stripping families of the support they need to stay or get housed.
▶ 0:26:23Uh it looks as if and I came over if you can recall I came over uh in a little protest action and that you know tried to get in touch with you but I didn't realize it was as bad as it is. You terminated more than 780 HUD employees including public servants whose expertise is essential to administering housing programs, enforcing civil rights and preventing homelessness.
▶ 0:26:51As a matter of fact, it has been described to me that HUD is only a shadow of what it should be. It was Let me be clear. Forcing hundreds of public servants out the door does not make HUD more efficient. It makes a the agency weaker and does nothing to make housing affordable.
▶ 0:27:13Well, as I talk with my staff and the work that we have done and they have done, you went on to roll back the equal access rule, tearing down longstanding protections against discrimination for women, children, and plus individuals. Last week, I'm told you proposed a rule that would make it more difficult for victims and housing providers to enforce the rights under laws.
▶ 0:27:42And it also says that you attempted to slash critical homelessness funding and undermine proven programs like housing first. Experts warned uh that this will punish more than 170,000 vulnerable Americans back into the streets. And thankfully the courts, I understand, forced you to retract that proposal.
▶ 0:28:06Secretary Turner, for the past year, we have watched you push housing policies like Trump dismisses the affordable housing crisis he created as a quote, hoax, scam, and conj job," unquote.
▶ 0:28:27The only con job I can see that this president and his cronies are trying to convince Americans that he cares about affordability more than he cares about winning in November. Now, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the bipartisan work this committee has done on housing, particularly passing the housing for the 21st century act, but we need more strong pro-ousing leadership at HUD to truly end this crisis.
▶ 0:28:56And Secretary I don't know if you understood what this job was all about, uh, but I'm wondering, especially to cut HUD's budget by half. And so,
▶ 0:29:10gentleoman yields back.
▶ 0:29:12Well, the general has to yield back, but we have more questions. Thank you very
▶ 0:29:16We will recognize you for those
▶ 0:29:19We now recognize the chair of the subcommittee on housing insurance, Mr. Flood of Nebraska. One minute for an opening statement.
▶ 0:29:24Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a pleasure to host the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, Scott Turner, at his first hearing with House Financial Services Committee. Housing costs have been rising for the last several years, and it is more important than ever before that we focus our committee's work on solutions that will bring housing costs down and increase housing supply. The bipartisan Housing for the 21st Century Act is the result of much of that work.
▶ 0:29:48The Housing for the 21st Century Act slashes red tape, cuts costs, and removes government barriers to building more housing in this country. While we have been working hard in this committee, I know that Secretary Turner has been hard at work to address some of these problems from within the department as well. I look forward to your testimony, Secretary Turner, your views on the legislation that we've been working on, and I hope we can use today's hearing as an opportunity to collaborate on the best path forward to address rising housing costs. With that, I yield back. Gentleman yields back.
▶ 0:30:18I now recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee on housing insurance, Mr. Clever, for one minute for an opening
▶ 0:30:24Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Secretary, thank you for uh meeting with me. Uh, executive agencies face political pressure to take action that may not be sound public policy. HUD's decisions carry significant consequences for millions of Americans and public and private partners. Uh I as mayor of Ken City had an opportunity to do a lot of work with HUD.
▶ 0:30:48Uh and I understand this recent shifts in HUD policy and budget raises or raise questions about the long-term impact on vulnerable communities. Congressman Lawler and I have a bill to require HUD to testify annually regardless of the administration and I hope that you would support that. My first and foremost goal is oversight and constructive path forward. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentleman yields back.
▶ 0:31:15Today again we welcome the testimony of the honorable Scott Turner, the Secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Secretary Turner, we thank you for taking time to be with us today. You'll be recognized for five minutes to give an oral presentation of your written testimony. And without objection, your written statement will be made part of our record. Secretary Turner, you're now recognized for your oral statement.
▶ 0:31:36Well, thank you, Chairman Hill, Ranking Member Waters, and distinguished members of this committee. Happy to be here with you this morning. Thank you for this chance to testify today about what HUD has been doing the past year to spur prosperity in our communities, safety in our streets, and home ownership across America.
▶ 0:31:53Under President Trump's leadership, we are fulfilling our mission of fostering strong communities by supporting access to quality affordable housing, expanding the housing supply, unlocking home ownership and opportunities for the American people. And we're doing that by empowering Americans and cutting red tape instead of intruding government power into every corner of Americans lives.
▶ 0:32:15As part of our campaign against overregulation, we eliminated the affirmatively further and fair housing rule, which really turned HUD into a national zoning board and robbed the local communities of their zoning of their zoning powers. The result was rising home prices and saddling communities with more red tape. And to be quite honest, AFA did not build one home in America. HUD doesn't just promote housing affordability. We also help Americans recover after natural disasters.
▶ 0:32:43We've given disaster survivors more than more flexibility and how they use recovery funds. And we have also allocated more than 12 billion dollars to assist the American people. This aid provides survivors with a crucial helping hand to rise from the ruins of storms and floods. Disaster relief is just one part of our mission. HUD defended women in shelters by ending the enforcement of a Biden era policy that forced them to share spaces with men who claimed to identify as women.
▶ 0:33:12Women in these shelters oftentimes have suffered from severe trauma like sexual assault or domestic violence or both. It is outrageous committee that such women were put in danger in the name of far-left gender ideology and restoring safety to these shelters marked a return to sanity. Caring for the vulnerable people in this country also means helping the homeless.
▶ 0:33:34We're restoring balance to the continuum of care program and prioritizing treatment and recovery as well as other supportive services to address the root problems of homelessness and keep our streets safe. This is a marked difference from the binary policy of throwing taxpayer dollars at the issue and calling it a day without any real results. My uncle, for example, is a good example of how he and other options beside forcing homeless Americans into permanent dependence on government.
▶ 0:34:02He was a homeless, broken veteran with a debilitating disease. But my family and I took him in, took care of him, and made sure that he got wraparound services that he needed. He would not have been better helped by being thrown into permanent public housing with no long-term treatment. He was able to live the rest of his life and die in dignity. Vulnerable Americans benefit when we get them real treatment. And we're making sure our efforts are helping the American people.
▶ 0:34:28We are reducing barriers facing homeless Americans that keep them from accessing evidence-based treatment and achieving successful long-term recovery from drug addiction to ultimately becoming productive citizens. We eliminated non-permanent residents el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el el for fains insured mortgages and we are auditing public housing authorities to ensure taxpayer dollars don't support illegal aliens. American dollars should benefit American citizens and American citizens only by focusing on our core mission.
▶ 0:34:58HUD provided a pathway for home ownership and supported housing affordability for more than 1 million Americans through FHA and Genie Mate. We also take stewardship very seriously. So, we're cracking down on waste and fraud and abuse. Our office of the chief financial officer uncovered more than $5 billion in potential payment errors over 50 billion in total rental assistance for the fiscal year 2024. And that includes money that went to nearly 30,000 dead people. That is ludicrous.
▶ 0:35:26It's ridiculous to even think or talk in such a way. It's a violation of our sacred trust to American taxpayers. And it has to end and it will. to help prevent file, waste, and abuse. We're taking steps to improve recipient and subreient reporting, enhance HUD monitoring capabilities, and streamline grants management. And we're rooting out corruption at public housing authorities and private multif family owners, as seen by our action to address fraud in the Atlantic City Housing Authority and New York City Housing Authorities.
▶ 0:35:56finally committed as part of making HUD run more efficiently. We have established a new HUD efficiency task force to promote efficiency gains benefiting the American people. We've made tremendous strides over the past year and under President Trump will continue promoting housing affordability and cultivating the independence, freedom, and enterprise that paved the way to the American dream of home ownership. Mr. Chairman, ranking member, thank you so much. Thank you, committee members. I look forward uh to engaging with you.
▶ 0:36:28Well, Mr. Secretary, thank you very much. We'll now turn to member questions. I recognize myself for five minutes for questioning. I want to thank you for your work serving as our secretary. I want to particularly say thank you for your passion for bringing prosperity across the country for lifting people up out of poverty and to an opportunity for success. I think back of your good work in the first Trump administration leading the way to expand opportunity zones across the country.
▶ 0:36:53So, thank you for all your commitment uh to ensuring that our federal housing programs help people in need rather than hinder them. It's been nearly a generation since Congress enacted comprehensive reform of HUD. The last major effort was the Quality Housing and Work Responsibility Act of 1999, which passed when the average home price was $160,000. Inflation adjusted, that's about And HUD's budget in that year was 12 billion.
▶ 0:37:23Today, the average home price is closer to 400,000. And under the Biden administration, HUD's requested budget reached $72 billion. Yet, much of the department still operates under statutory and regulatory frameworks designed for a housing market that simply doesn't exist any longer.
▶ 0:37:41That's why this committee has advanced legislation such as the housing for the 21st century act which a goal of modernizing outdated programs, removing unnecessary regulatory barriers, and encouraging local development so that housing can be built faster, more affordably, and with greater Mr. Secretary, from your perspective, why is it so difficult for Congress to enact legislation that modernizes the HUD programs and HUD authorities?
▶ 0:38:12Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, that is a question that I ask myself. You know, I think a lot of times just the mindset uh and you know, doing things the same way because we've always done it. But I think with this issue that we have in our country with housing affordability, accountability, transparency, uh that it is um Congress that working in a bipartisan manner as it seems you all have to bring up uh reforms to make codes more modern to help housing affordability.
▶ 0:38:41And I know it has been difficult through the years, but I would encourage the the members of this committee and the entire Congress to look at the issue in our country. Uh housing to me is not political. Housing impacts all 350 million people in our country. And so whatever ways we can come up with to bring down the cost of housing, to take down regulatory barriers, as you said uh in the bill that you all have, uh been working on uh I think is a great idea uh and I encourage the bipartisanship.
▶ 0:39:07I encourage working across the aisle, membertomember, uh to accomplish and attack these problems. Well, I appreciate that and I do thank uh Chairman Flood and Ranking Member Clever and the ranking member of the full committee working collaboratively to break down some of these barriers, find compromise, find opportunities to even authorize programs that have never been authorized or reformed in decades. And so that's the work this committee has been committed to to tackle that because we know it has direct results of more affordable building policies.
▶ 0:39:38Uh lowering construction costs, increasing affordability through the steps we've taken. Uh I want to turn to my home state of Arkansas for a moment and the deeply troubling situation that we've had for the past several years at the Little Rock Housing Authority. What's occurred there is truly baffling to me and frankly inconceivable. Residents are now at risk of displacement through the no fault of their own.
▶ 0:40:04Instead of they're paying the price for repeated failures by the housing authority itself, including not filling out required audits. They're engaging in reckless decision-making that puts both residents and taxpayers at risk. and I've written multiple letters expressing my dismay, including the request of the HUD Office of Inspector General to investigate the matter. And I have to tell you, Mr.
▶ 0:40:26Secretary, I've been disappointed in the city's oversight of the public housing agency, their board of directors, the local HUD office in Little Rock, the regional office in Dallas Fort Worth. And I just I if it's happening in Little Rock, I know it's happening across the country where taxpayers are not uh being dealt with fairly.
▶ 0:40:47But more importantly, our citizens dependent on a section 8 voucher program to be in a safe, clean housing situation are are finding disasters. And I wondered, could you provide me an update regarding the Little Would you be willing to give me an update on Little Rock Housing
▶ 0:41:07Uh yes, sir. in this uh brief moment that I have, you know, our team has been in touch with your team and we've sent multiple communications uh there to the Little Rock Housing Authority and uh we are shining a light on accountability and transparency there, but also all of our PHAS around the country and public housing should be safe housing uh which we can talk about uh going forward in the committee. But yes, sir, we are on top of this issue.
▶ 0:41:29Well, I just want to I know members on both sides of the aisle are concerned about safe, sound, sanitary, effective public housing for those citizens that have to use that as a resource. And many of our members grew up in public housing and we want to make sure that it's safe and sound. I thank you for that. I now recognize the ranking member of the committee, Mrs. Waters, for five minutes for your
▶ 0:41:50Thank you so very much, Chairman Hill. Uh you spoke of Mr. determines uh uh uh Turner's passionate, Secretary Turner's housing concerns. I want you to know I come from a family of 13 12 brothers and sisters. We lived in inadequate housing and so uh it was worse than inadequate. And I want you to know nobody's passion could be any more deeper than mine about housing.
▶ 0:42:19Uh so, Secretary Turner, the president, desperate and sacred of November elections, scrambled last night uh to get out his executive order banning institutional investors like private equity from purchasing single family homes. While the motives are questionable, I support the concept as I've always and proudly prioritized affordable home ownership and housing for Americans.
▶ 0:42:46However, you, Secretary Turner, throughout 2025, sold over 1.3 billion in distressed mortgages to those same corporate investors, denying real people a chance to buy those homes. In fact, two days before Trump initially tweeted about the ban, you announced yet another sale of these distress assets to private equity.
▶ 0:43:11Under the Biden Harris administration, HUD finalized a rule to ensure that when distressed housing assets are sold to investors, home buyers get the first shot at buying them after the foreclosure. It's called first look. But you have repeatedly waved this rule, putting private equity before people, including for the sale HUD announced two weeks ago.
▶ 0:43:36You had the chance to give families a better shot at home ownership and you choose not to when President Trump in his executive order directs you to use first look policies following in the footsteps of Democrats. Now, Secretary Turner, I hope you can now agree that people deserve to be prioritized over corporations in light of President's order and HUD's upcoming sale of distressed assets in February.
▶ 0:44:04Will you commit to cancelling the sale to institutional investors or at least restore the safeguards which gave home buyers the opportunity to purchase any foreclosed homes that result from it? I don't want a long answer, just yes or no.
▶ 0:44:21Uh thank you, Ranking Member uh Waters. Uh you know, at FHA uh when we have these, it is owner occupant.
▶ 0:44:28Yes or no? And I will look into the numbers that you just gave me uh with my team, but we will uphold the law at FHA and make sure we safeguard FHA and prioritize the American homeowner.
▶ 0:44:38Is that yes or no, Mr. Turner?
▶ 0:44:40That's my commitment that we'll safeguard the American homeowners. And I will get back to you on the numbers that you just gave me.
▶ 0:44:46Okay. Last year, you also cut the first look period for stimula HUD real estate owned or REO assets from 30 to 15 days. Now, would you commit to increasing uh this time framework back to 30 days to allow homeowners more time to purchase their homes? Yes or no?
▶ 0:45:09Uh ranking member, we are committed to uh ensuring that FHA is solvent and that we protect FHA uh for the American people. Yes, sir.
▶ 0:45:18That timeline was is always under analysis and review. Uh there's reasons why we cut it down. We don't want FHA homes just sitting on the market. And so we have to do the best thing to keep our secretary attorney a core HUD function is to enforce civil rights laws to everyone no matter their race, religion, creed or color uh uh can live in a thriving neighborhood.
▶ 0:45:40But you have spent the past year abandoning that responsibility by cutting the staff of the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Employment or FH EO by 70% withdrawing any discrimination guidance and refusing to accept discrimination claims based on sexual orientation or gender identity.
▶ 0:46:04HUD whistleblowers then shared with you their leadership team that said that fair housing is not a priority and described their full fair housing staff as quote optics problem quote unquote and issued gag orders to stop staff from following the law to help those denied housing.
▶ 0:46:25Now, it looks like you are weaponizing fair housing enforcement as the Trump administration does its best uh to cover up the murder by ICE of an American citizen as the do the DOJ investigates the Minnesota Authority General and Governor. You suddenly are deploying what remains of FHO staff to investigate the city of New
▶ 0:46:55and I rest.
▶ 0:46:57Well, please respond to the the ranking member in writing, Mr. Secretary. The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, who chairs our task force on monetary policy. You're recognized for five
▶ 0:47:09Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Secretary Turner, for being here today.
▶ 0:47:13Secretary Turner. Last year, this committee overwhelmingly passed HR6644 or the housing for the to 21st century act. Thanks the leadership of Chairman Hill and Housing Chairman Flood. This vote demonstrates a strong bipartisan commitment to making housing more affordable, a goal I know you share. One theme of the bill is the need for deregulation to lower housing cost. Can you share more about the work the agency's doing to cut raid tape?
▶ 0:47:42How can this committee partner with you to build on the actions you've taken?
▶ 0:47:47Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Lucas. I appreciate your question. The first thing we did when we came in and the ranking member alluded to, we want to take inventory of every program at HUD. And part of that was seeing what is causing us not to carry out the mission and what is helping us to carry out the mission as it pertains to housing affordability. And so, deregulation is of top priority.
▶ 0:48:06The first thing we did was take down the affirmatively further and fair housing rule which really made HUD or Washington a national zoning board and we restored um the zoning capabilities and freedom back to the localities. Regulations both from a federal level but even more so from a local level are crippling and have crippled development and building construction uh in our country and so this is of utmost priority for us and it will continue to be so.
▶ 0:48:32Secretary, the Native American Housing Assistance and Self-Determination Act was passed 30 years ago to make it easier for tribes to access HUD programs. It's been extremely successful, particularly for tribes in Oklahoma.
▶ 0:48:47Uh, thank you, Secretary Turner, for your continued support of the program, which makes a tremendous difference in improving housing access to tribal citizens. While Congress needs to reauthorize Nihazda, can you share more of how HUD is working with those who face unique housing and economic challenges like native communities?
▶ 0:49:07Uh yes, sir. As you know, I have traveled extensively uh both in the first Trump administration leading the opportunity zones and this administration to our tribal nations uh and have great relationships uh with our tribes across our country. I recently last year uh was in Alaska uh to visit our tribes and so we want to continue to support NHazda and ONAP from our ONAP office and make sure that they continue to have their sovereignty and flexibility uh as it pertains to housing and affordability on our tribes.
▶ 0:49:36In my remaining time, Mr. Secretary, you previously led the inter agency opportunity zones initiative. How is HUD building on that progress and encouraging long-term investments in lowincome communities?
▶ 0:49:47Yes, sir. I'm very excited about the uh the uh working family tax cuts bill which made opportunity zones permanent. Uh I'm looking forward to working with uh the whole of government both state, local and federal and uh private sector partners who are deeply involved in making sure the opportunity zones uh achieve the mission which they do. The first one uh trunch of opportunity zones over $90 billion of private money was invested in opportunity zones creating over 300,000 housing units and lifting 1 million people out of poverty.
▶ 0:50:18And I will suspect that the next round of opportunity zones we will do even better for the American people in particular when you talk about building affordable housing and job creation. And so I'm very excited in the days ahead uh of the opportunity zone legislation. So, thank you and your colleagues uh for making this a permanent policy in our country.
▶ 0:50:37Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for your work. And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:50:40Okay. Gentleman yields back. Gentleman from New York, Mr. Velasquez, who is the ranking member of the House Small Business Committee is recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:50:50You can see me. Good morning. Thank you for being here. Uh Mr. Turner elite draft of hot proposed mixed status rule is likely to force impacted families to choose between separating as a family to keep their family or face eviction and potentially homelessness. Is it hot intention to force families to separate? Yes or no?
▶ 0:51:18Uh yes or no. Thank you ma'am. I really appreciate I'm I'm doing my best to hear you and listen. Our intention uh literally is to uphold the law and to take care of our homeless neighbors around our country.
▶ 0:51:28So it is a yes answer. Uh can you explain why HUD is forcing families to choose between separation or eviction and homelessness?
▶ 0:51:40No ma'am. HUD is not causing people to choose between separation and homelessness. We're doing the very best we can serve our homeless neighborhood
▶ 0:51:47will have that effect. It will separate families or it will increase homelessness in this country. If experts are already saying the proposed rule will have similar effects to the 2019 proposed rule, which was widely criticized. Why is HUD proposing changes to this rule?
▶ 0:52:14Well, ma'am, I'm not sure which experts you're talking about, but at HUD, we deal with expert low income housing.
▶ 0:52:21I'm happy to to give that to our staff so we can uh
▶ 0:52:24review that. But the experts, they don't work on homelessness day in and day out like we do.
▶ 0:52:28Reclaiming my time, I would like to introduce uh this report to the uh to the record.
▶ 0:52:33Without objection, be included in the record. Sir, um, Americans, as you stated, are facing an affordability challenge and we need to free up these units for American citizens.
▶ 0:52:50That is the argument of the So, mixed status families make up less than 1% of families participating in HOT's multifamily housing programs. and are already paying their fair share.
▶ 0:53:08The current rule already prohibits non-sitizens from receiving a rent Do you know how many American families are currently estimated to be on the section 8 program waiting list
▶ 0:53:26Yes, ma'am. What I do know is that at HUD, even with record funding, we're only able to serve one out of four families that are in need.
▶ 0:53:33Okay. So more than 737,000 families, this rule is expected to mixed family, which means more than families will still be waiting for a voucher, which doesn't solve the housing affordability challenge President Trump promised to solve.
▶ 0:54:01This will not solve the problem and it will explode homelessness in our country. So my question to you is if one of the immediate effect of the proposed rule is to explode homelessness in our country. Why is that that the president proposed a $27 million cut to homeless assistant for FY26?
▶ 0:54:31How do you reconcile one thing with the
▶ 0:54:34Thank you, Congressman. What I do know is that with record funding, homelessness went up 33%. 770,000 people on one single night in our country were homeless with record funding. So to me, it's not going to solve the problem. It's not a money problem. Implement
▶ 0:54:49reclaiming my time. You will solve the problem by implementing this mix status rule exploding homelessness would and cutting cutting $27 million to homeless uh the homelessness program in this country. Wouldn't h want to support states and localities with the resources to deal with the homelessness problem your proposal will cause? Well, ma'am, you keep saying that we're cutting. It's record funding for homelessness.
▶ 0:55:19So, I'm not sure what report you're reading. We're not cut and funded homelessness. Matter of fact, it's the largest allocation of resources for homeless.
▶ 0:55:26$7 million less than fiscal year 25. So, when does um when does HUD expect to release the proposal of the mixed status
▶ 0:55:41It's still under uh conversation, ma'am. you know, I can't speak about that right
▶ 0:55:45Okay. Well, I hope if you get the 95% comments that will negatively um reject this woman's time, you will withdraw that rule because it's the gentleoman's time is expired.
▶ 0:56:01The gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Heisinga, who's the vice chairman of our full committee, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:56:07Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman and Secretary Turner. Good to see you again and I appreciate your uh your attendance here today. Um and first I want to say thank you for uh speaking with me last week uh on the phone and and about our shared priorities and especially the state of low-income housing in my district.
▶ 0:56:27And I also appreciate uh your staff who uh took the time for a call with the mayor of Kalamazoo uh David Anderson and and an organization called Integrated Services of Kalamazoo uh to discuss homelessness and homeless pro uh the uh projects and and programs that we have. U back uh specifically though I do also want to highlight uh a project in Benton Harbor, Michigan in my district. that's called Harbor Towers.
▶ 0:56:58Uh dating back to 2011, residents have been complaining about the conditions that they have experienced there, including no heat, hot water, uh security concerns. Uh in 2024, I visited the property myself with uh Mayor Marcus Muhammad uh to bring attention to a housing development that has long been neglected. Uh now it's my understanding we got the ball rolling then and but it's my understanding that the funding for this project is set to close in March of this year.
▶ 0:57:28Uh and I just want to get your commitment that you are going to work with me and uh and the fine folks there to to see that project through.
▶ 0:57:36Uh yes sir, Congressman, thank you. you know, we are uh more than willing to work with you and your office to make sure uh that the people that are living there are living in the best conditions possible uh and that we are stewarding well over taxpayer dollars uh and carrying out HUD's mission
▶ 0:57:50and both of those things can happen. We can be both a steward and provide uh proper housing uh for those folks and and that is that's an important component of this. So, I appreciate your support and I know the residents of Harbor Towers will be very very glad to hear that uh that that much needed funding has been secured. Uh and lastly, I'd love to invite you uh to the fourth district. It's one of the most beautiful districts you'll ever see. I don't care what my other colleagues say.
▶ 0:58:19Uh but I do highly recommend uh sometime in the spring, maybe the summer. Uh uh Benton Harbor is right on the shores of Lake Michigan. I'd love to get you there. love to get you to Calamazoo and Battle Creek, Serial City, USA, uh where uh we could take a look at a few of those projects that are in the district. So, uh look forward to working uh hopefully with your schedule uh on that.
▶ 0:58:41Um and I'll uh there's there's a lot of folks uh that that get support in Michigan, but I think it's important that you come to Southwest Michigan to see some of those challenges that we have. um something you and I have discussed uh in the past and I know you touched on in your testimony and I believe the chair brought up uh in his opening statement uh but I wanted to give you an opportunity to expand on your on the work HUD is doing to hold local housing authorities accountable. So could you please expand on that work?
▶ 0:59:10Sure. Thank you. You know when we came in a lot during the Biden administration a blind eye had been turned to transparency and accountability in our public housing authorities. We have 3,800 public housing authorities around our country, urban and rural. And we came in with the idea and the intention to hold public housing authorities accountable for those that live inside of public housing authorities, the living conditions inside of public housing authorities.
▶ 0:59:36And so we've been working with Department of Homeland Security and other uh federal agency partners uh to make sure that those that are living inside of HUDF funded uh properties are indeed American citizens that they are upholding the living conditions that they're supposed to be upholding for our uh people that live inside of those public housing should be safe housing. And so we have a task force. We announced a new hotline uh that people can call if there's nefarious activity going on in our public housing authorities.
▶ 1:00:051 800 is a number that people can call to our hotline with our office of inspector general. Uh there's drug trafficking, there's sex trafficking, there's domestic violence. Uh there's all kind of things that are going on criminally inside of housing authorities. And I'm not willing to turn the blind eye uh to that anymore. But we need to protect our women, our children, and our families to be safe in housing authorities.
▶ 1:00:27So, I unapologetically uh want to say we're going to root out crime and come for those uh who are doing criminal and affairs activity uh because we will not stand for that any longer, sir.
▶ 1:00:38Uh amen. Thank you for that. Uh that the the folks that they're supposed to be serving deserve that. Um one last thing here in the closing moments. U I want to talk a little bit about home ownership. I actually happen to be a former realtor. Family is involved in construction. Um, and uh, I uh, appreciated our time that we spent this fall at HUD's innovative housing showcase that was on the on the mall. Unfortunately, uh, in the midst of that, we found out about the shooting of Charlie Kirk, uh, which put cast a bit of a cloud on that.
▶ 1:01:07U,, but with respect to modular manufacturing, factory build housing. Um, I can't believe my time is up. All right, I will ask the question in writing, Mr. Chairman. I just want to see how we are helping out using
▶ 1:01:20Gentlemen yields back. The chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. Sherman, the ranking member on our subcommittee on capital markets for five minutes.
▶ 1:01:29Thank you, Mr. Secretary. You spoke with great pride about how your department has helped disaster victims. That's chiefly through the CDBG-D program. Now, the biggest disaster we've had in the last 12 months or so is the LA fires. Well over hundred billion dollars of damage. Thank you for visiting in March. Yeah.
▶ 1:01:47Um, one thing that your department has done is a 90-day moratorum for mortgage foreclosures, but that was already a matter of California state law. So, it was really auary uh action. Um, you don't have a CDBG-dr. Uh, so you haven't done anything for the biggest disaster this country has faced. Not one penny.
▶ 1:02:14Although you speak about how important it is to help people with uh in disasters, do you support a CDBD program for the LA fires?
▶ 1:02:28Sir, I did go out there and thank you for bringing that up, Congressman. Do you support and when I went out there uh I met with local authorities sir Karen Bass and others?
▶ 1:02:38I'm going to reclaim my time and ask you to ask do you support CDBG program for the LA fires or you don't or you just want to tell me how interesting your your trip was which I don't have time to
▶ 1:02:49No, I wasn't interested. So I was actually disappointed in the leadership in California to be honest. So you're saying that the people in my district should be shafted because you don't like our politicians?
▶ 1:03:02Not at all. I'm not saying
▶ 1:03:03Do you support a CDBG pro program for the victims of the fires? Not G given that you don't like our governor, etc.
▶ 1:03:11This has nothing to do with who I like,
▶ 1:03:13Okay. Do you support a CDBG program for the LA fires or do you want to just come here, talk about how you want to help disaster victims and then not give them one penny?
▶ 1:03:24Last year we gave $12 billion at CDBGDR. 12 billion.
▶ 1:03:28Any of it to the LA fires? One penny for the LA fires. How much to the LA fires?
▶ 1:03:33That's all public. You can go find out. But yes,
▶ 1:03:35zero. I already found out. Zero.
▶ 1:03:38You come here, you speak about helping disaster victims. this is the biggest disaster. You haven't done a penny and you say it's because you don't like politicians or you just say because you're just not going to bother to support aid to the big for for those who suffered the biggest disaster on your on the watch of this administration.
▶ 1:04:02I did not say I did not like
▶ 1:04:04Okay. Well, maybe you like politicians.
▶ 1:04:06I said the leadership in California is the one that you need to be talking to. Are you saying that the leadership in that that the I should talk to the leadership in California about why your department you come here and you say you're going to that you're proud of helping the victims of disasters. You haven't done a single penny, not one penny for the LA fires. And I should go talk to California politicians about why you haven't provided and do not support a single penny for those.
▶ 1:04:35need to talk to the leadership in California about how they're stewarding over the funds that they do have to help those in Palisades and Alto.
▶ 1:04:42Are so you're saying you should do nothing because California should do it on its own with the funds that it already has.
▶ 1:04:49Why do you why do you come here and tell us how much your department helps disaster victims when with the biggest disaster your response is, oh the the local government should handle that and we should do nothing? I'll repeat $12 billion is
▶ 1:05:03$12 billion to how much of that $12 billion came from your department and went to the LA fire victims.
▶ 1:05:10You can go find out.
▶ 1:05:11I know it's I've already found out $0 Now you can try to take credit for what other agencies have done, but you came here to talk about your department helping fire victims, and your department has helped fire victims by providing 0 and0.
▶ 1:05:29How can you speak with pride about your department helping fire victims, helping the victims of disaster when you've provided zero and you have and you don't apparently I keep asking you to say that you support uh doing something in the future with a perhaps a supplemental appropriation. Do you support uh a CDBG program funded by Congress to help the victims of the LA fires?
▶ 1:05:53Sir, I did answer that question. And I do support CDBGDR for the LA fires
▶ 1:05:58for all of fire, flood, and victims of disasters and storms around our
▶ 1:06:03because my my my Republican colleagues have said they're ready to go with a supplemental appropriation when they get the signal from the administration that the administration supports it. You hear from the administration. Do you support CDBG that would include the fires in Los Angeles? Sir, like I've told other members of this committee, I'm happy to work with you and your staff and this committee to make sure
▶ 1:06:25I'm asking, do you support it?
▶ 1:06:28Can you answer?
▶ 1:06:29I did.
▶ 1:06:30Gentleman's time is expired.
▶ 1:06:32Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Sessions recognized for five
▶ 1:06:38Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Secretary Turner, welcome.
▶ 1:06:41Thank you. your uh knowledge of not only this issue comes from experience in the first administration but also in your service to the state of Texas and I have watched you and known you for many years and have great admiration for not just your integrity but your ability to move forward with answers.
▶ 1:07:01Uh this morning you've had an opportunity to uh highlight the things which are important to you. You've talked about 3,800 housing authorities. You've talked about HUD by and large helps one in four families that actually need help. Uh these were things that we understood during the Biden We had a difficult time getting the Biden administration to even come to talk with us mostly because they did not report the work.
▶ 1:07:31you've had an opportunity to dig into from a perspective of looking high down low at municipal governance, the things that they do uh whether it be uh their their own uh housing authorities or otherwise. There is an issue now of private investors versus this opportunity.
▶ 1:07:54Who is going to or what would be your idea versus municipal governance and this issue about private investors really coming and building housing quickly. Housing that could be paid for with uh with tax dollars, meaning that they would uh provide property taxes back when not owned by the municipalities.
▶ 1:08:24Can you talk to me about your guidance of this difference between money for for uh these these agencies that are run by local authorities versus private
▶ 1:08:38Uh yes, sir. Congressman, just so I can understand, could you repeat that? I'm trying to get a clear understanding of
▶ 1:08:44housing authorities, there are some 3,800 of them around the country. M
▶ 1:08:49and you spoke about the need to make sure that they have rules and regulations, money to run themselves.
▶ 1:08:55We also heard you say by and large that takes care of about 14th
▶ 1:09:02of the need that is out there.
▶ 1:09:06I'm asking about the private investor. How are we going to take care of the other three quarters? and you've had a chance to come in and look at the private investor coming in building, getting things [clears throat] done, that property being on the tax roles, and people getting uh the help that they need more immediately.
▶ 1:09:26Oh, yes, sir. So, and I alluded to, you know, HUD is serving one out of four people uh that um need help uh that we should be serving in our country. That's an overall picture of the lack of stewardship uh that was going on uh in the Biden administration with record funding. We have uh homelessness that has gone up. We'd have housing affordability issues. We have PHA issues. And so when I speak of this, what I'm saying is that we have to be better stewards and maximize the budget at HUD so that we can actually serve the people that need to be served in our country.
▶ 1:09:56When you have, you know, millions of illegal uh aliens coming over uh our border, this puts a strain on our housing supply, puts a strain on housing affordability in our country. 59% of illegal alien families use at least one or more of our welfare programs which cost us about $42 billion a year. That's a strain uh on the uh budget of HUD. We need to be serving the people in public housing authorities in homelessness as we've said in disaster recovery that we're supposed to be serving.
▶ 1:10:25That's the American people. Yes, we do like to have public private partnerships to your question uh using the private sector as it pertains to housing as it pertains to uh a RAD conversion and things of this nature and so public private partnerships have done a great deal uh in our country. We saw that a lot in our opportunity zone uh policy and initiative in the first Trump administration. I hope that answer your
▶ 1:10:49Yes, sir. which is why I assume when you engage with uh Miss Waters that there was a decision that was made about putting these dollars where they need to be with private investors. Well, uh, I think this this committee on a bipartisan basis will be interested as you come up with these answers looking top down at the needs of people.
▶ 1:11:11And I do believe that we've got a series of rules, regulations that are in not helping us to help people today all across this country. And I will look forward to your leadership and hearing from you. Thank you very much. And as always, I hope you'll go back to your team and tell them the American people care very much about the success of HUD.
▶ 1:11:34Okay. Thank you so much.
▶ 1:11:35I yield back my time, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:11:37Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, who's the ranking member of our housing and insurance subcommittee. Mr. Cleaver, you're recognized for five
▶ 1:11:45Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh I I think everybody usually speaks from their own their own experience. uh this morning um uh in DOVs uh the president um spoke about uh his executive order uh about large institutional purchases of single family homes. Um this issue is kind of like you know people who will and you can't tell them otherwise.
▶ 1:12:13They're absolutely sure they're that it's true which is people will say well uh you know the Bible says that money is the root of all evil. Uh which is not what the Bible says. Um it could have been clear if they said brokenness is the root of all evil but they said it was the love of money. You can't you can't change it. It's been going on for centuries. People just misquote it. And so the same thing happens with this issue of institutional purchases.
▶ 1:12:42Um 81% having lived in public housing that Mr. Torres and I uh we both feel very strongly about this. 81% of the people who live in public housing uh and and uh public housing are working every day. Uh but if you go around and and ask people, oh the people in public housing don't work.
▶ 1:13:04My I I used to tell my father not to watch u the hearing if we were going to talk about public housing because he worked three jobs to to get us out uh into our own home. So, but I'm not going to I don't want to stay on that. I just want to tell you that the the I was glad to see the president mention housing, but that was such a I mean it's a small small portion uh of um of home uh purchases.
▶ 1:13:31Uh but the the the the one thing I I hope that we we we can all be careful about you just saying things like that that create problems. Um and I I I want to yield at this time to the ranking member uh Maxine Waters the rest of my [clears throat] time.
▶ 1:13:50Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Secretary Turner, let's get down to a fact. I'm a black woman. You're a black man. you know about the struggles that our people have had uh for justice and equality and housing. Now, I understand that you know about a community in Ravendale, Arkansas called Return to the Land that advertises itself as whites only.
▶ 1:14:17Its community architects screen applicants with in-person interview, a questionnaire about their ancestors, a criminal background check, even with family photographs, and confirm that applicants are white before they can be welcome in the community. Uh they have already rejected applicants that they believe did not appear to be white enough. Now, you know about this community, you know what is going on down there. What are you going to do about it?
▶ 1:14:44Uh thank you. Uh uh, Congressman Clever, and thank you, Ranking Member Waters. Uh, as a matter of fact, I do not know about this community. This is the first time that I'm hearing about this community. Uh, but thank you for bringing that to my attention. Uh, because we enforce the law at HUD under my leadership.
▶ 1:15:04Okay. I just want to know,
▶ 1:15:05thank you for telling me about that.
▶ 1:15:06You know about it now. I'm telling you about it whether or not you're going to investigate it. And by the way, there's no such thing as an illegal alien. Are you talking about undocumented? Are you talking about somebody that come from another planet? Secondly, my chair here is from Arkansas and there's a place called Cotton Plant Arkansas where my family know about and served and picked cotton and all of that, discriminated against, etc., etc., etc.
▶ 1:15:35Not only do I want to know about this uh community that I'm, you know, giving some information about, but I want you to also look over here in Arkansas at Cotton Blend, Arkansas, uh Cotton Plant, Arkansas, where the people are desperate, uh where the housing is falling apart, uh where the incomes are absolutely absent over there. Take a look at what's going on.
▶ 1:16:00uh as a minister and as a black man do what our ancestors expect us to do when we get in these important positions. They expect us to speak up, to speak out, and to get rid of discrimination and look out for the people who have been discriminated against for all of these years. I yield
▶ 1:16:19Uh thank you, Madam Chair. Uh ranking member, uh m Mr. Secretary, uh, what I hope, uh, I can get some information on is why HUD, uh, justifies imposing a work requirement on PHAS when 80% of 81% of the people are working. I mean, I um, if if you could have someone explain to me or send me some kind of a response. 81%. Thank you. Okay,
▶ 1:16:49I yield back.
▶ 1:16:50Thank you, sir. Ranking member of the subcommittee yields back. It's pleasure to now recognize the gentleoman from Missouri, Miss Wagner, the chair of our capital market subcommittee. You're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:17:01I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, welcome, Secretary Turner. Uh, as you are likely aware, the average firsttime home buyer in the United States is now 40 years old.
▶ 1:17:16To make that stat statistic even more staggering, the share of home purchases that are made by firsttime buyers is now only 21%, marking a 50% contraction since 2007, right before the Great Recession.
▶ 1:17:35Clearly, housing supply is not keeping up with demand, especially for young couples that are looking to start a life together and have a place of their own to raise a family. For millions of people across this country, the prospect of owning a home seems completely out of reach.
▶ 1:17:56Last year, the National Association of Realators found that while housing inventory is increasing, much of this supply has only been available to wealthier Americans and middle-income buyers have seen little to no change in the housing stock available to them.
▶ 1:18:16One of the goals of the bipartisan housing for the 21st century act is to modernize and reform outdated housing programs to better fit the needs of today, including for middle-income home buyers. Secretary Turner, can you describe what uh why it is important to update outdated frameworks and what administrative or regulatory changes can HUD and Congress make to modernize them?
▶ 1:18:46Uh yes, ma'am. Thank you, Congressman. And you're exactly right. Streamlining the processes, modernizing the codes is of utmost importance, I know, to this committee and also to myself and our team at HUD. When you talk about the average firsttime home buyer age now being 40 years old, it used to be 33 years old just several years ago. Uh the average price of a house in America now is $435,000 which is unsustainable and out of reach for a lot of people in particular our younger generation.
▶ 1:19:14Uh and so as you know from the president, myself and other leaders and I know this committee uh home ownership the American dream of achieving that is of utmost importance. is a bipartisan housing is not political, but we do have to modernize our codes. We do have to get the interest rates down. We have to get mortgage rates down. Inflation is down. Get our fiscal house in order as we are doing uh over the past year to make sure that more people in America can achieve the American dream of owning a home.
▶ 1:19:44And so we're working tirelessly to bring down the regulations to get our fiscal house in order uh to work with our our uh agency partners to ensure that people can uh own a home in this country.
▶ 1:19:55Thank you. Thank you, Secretary Turner. And I know that President Trump and this administration are absolutely committed
▶ 1:20:01to uh to doing this and to making h to make housing much more affordable to to to middle class average Americans um across this country. And I believe that through the the Housing for the 21st century act that this committee aims to make it easier to build more housing and give more Americans the opportunity to own a home. One of the biggest issues that this bill tackles is unnecessary government red tape.
▶ 1:20:26Recently, the National Association of Homebuilders found that regulations at all levels of government account for nearly 25% of the price of constructing a single family home. When the median listing price for a single family home in my my home state of Missouri is nearly nearly 25% can make a diff make the difference between being able to afford a home or not.
▶ 1:20:55Uh Secretary Tony Turner, what is HUD doing to remove unnecessary red tape and costly regulations to bolster housing supply and how can Cong Congress continue to support this work?
▶ 1:21:08Thank you, ma'am. And you're indeed uh right 25% to build a single family home is in regulation, 40% and when you build a multif family that's unsustainable and from any contractor, developer or construction uh company as I said before we took down the affirmatively further and fair housing which was a costly burdensome regulation on localities.
▶ 1:21:29I have been traveling our country extensively meeting with mayors, localities, zoning, planning and zoning professionals, economic development professionals, asking them and encourage them too to take inventory of their regulatory environment to unleash building and development in their said
▶ 1:21:45There's one other thing I want to bring to your attention. I you probably won't have enough time to answer so you can do so in in writing, but I brought this issue up before. Um we've heard that that there's too much focus has gone towards refurbishing existing housing stock rather than new construction. So um uh certainly in the private sector but also in the public sector. So uh I want to make sure that we are putting money and directing federal money towards new supply and new housing.
▶ 1:22:10Gentleoman's time is expired.
▶ 1:22:12You can answer in uh in writing. I'll I'll put the question to you. Thank you.
▶ 1:22:15Chair recognizes the gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Heimmes, who's the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee. Mr. You're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:22:21Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and uh thank you, Secretary, for for being here. I'm going to dovetail well with Miss Wagner's comments. I've been working in housing for a long time, going back 20 years ago when I ran the New York Office of Enterprise Community Partners. And um where I come from, we have a massive housing affordability crisis. Uh do you agree, and it sounds like Miss Wagner has the same situation, do you agree that much of this country is enveloped in a affordabil housing affordability Yes sir, we indeed have a housing
▶ 1:22:50Okay. And um you know there's near unanimous agreement amongst the people who study this stuff that there are many millions of unbuilt units. Some people say 3 million, some people say as high as six or seven million. Basic economics tells us that when supply goes up, price goes down. Do you have an independent estimate for the number of uh millions of units that the United States needs to build in order to sort of achieve some level or to reduce the crisis and
▶ 1:23:15Yes, sir. And I think your numbers are accurate. I've heard between four and 7 million units of all types of housing.
▶ 1:23:21Okay. Okay. So, I want to give you another chance to ask to answer Miss Wagner's um last question about what you're actually doing. I think the world understands I think you understand that as noble as the work inside HUD is, the single biggest reason housing is not getting built is regulation at the state and municipal level, land use, etc. So my question is a version of Miss Wagner's question.
▶ 1:23:47What are you doing not to ask but to require maybe using the tools at your disposal like CDBG funding to actually affect change in what matters which is state and local land use regulation.
▶ 1:24:00Absolutely. And I agree that's on a state and local level and you know we are discussing a myriad of ideas uh incentives uh not only CDBG but others you look at opportunity zones. Opportunity zones give us a great platform uh to build all types of housing in particularly and
▶ 1:24:16opportunity zones generally exclude the use of those funds for the building of
▶ 1:24:20Well, and that's you know we have a second round of opportunity zones coming and I've been looking at this very heavily uh as a leader of the opportunity zone initiative last time and how we can prioritize single family housing uh inside of opportunity zones. Sir, I have been encouraging obviously I cannot mandate localities uh but I have been encouraging localities to look at their regulatory environment.
▶ 1:24:41Uh doesn't matter what city or what state it's in and see how they can ease the regulatory environment and take down these barriers so that housing can be built multif family, single family. I believe manufactured housing uh will play a big role. We got about 22 million people in our country that live in manufactured housing. My my my concern is here and I appreciate that you agree with the supply issue
▶ 1:25:02but I'm hearing words like discuss encourage. You agreed with me that this is a crisis.
▶ 1:25:08You may remember, you probably don't remember. I'm older than you are. Uh you know the federal government in the 1970s basically imposed a 55 mph speed limit on the country by saying you don't get try highway funds unless you go to 55. Now that's changed now, but my point is you got some tools. So I'm So So give me more than you're encouraging and hoping and discussing because we have as we agree a crisis.
▶ 1:25:29We do have tools.
▶ 1:25:31Tell me about them.
▶ 1:25:32What we're working with right now is our team. The president obviously is taking bold steps to attack housing affordability and make housing more affordable both on the demand and the supply side. And we are working on these ideas. We're working on strategies right now. We're about execution and we will have uh things coming out that we can do to help and to incentivize housing affordability across our country.
▶ 1:25:56And so I'm not just giving you words, but what we're doing is actually taking action inside of our agency and across other agencies in this cabinet. Okay. So, um if you're not just giving me words, give me a number. You're you didn't give me a specific number, but you're agreeing with me that there's a shortfall of somewhere between three and seven million units. So, if three years from now, we look back on your tenure as secretary, what's the number that will allow you to say to yourself, I was a successful HUD secretary in terms of new
▶ 1:26:24Well, last year at FHA, we helped already 1 million home buyers through
▶ 1:26:30No, I'm talking about new construction here. I'm not talking about helping people buy existing.
▶ 1:26:34I I understand, but my job is at HUD and we helped over 1 million uh home buyers.
▶ 1:26:38I got a simple habit number for you, but the more people
▶ 1:26:42Sir, let me reclaim my time here. I'm I'm trying to pin you down because we're agreeing that we have a massive supply crisis here.
▶ 1:26:47But you can't pin me down on the number. I think the most pe the more people that we have that are homeowners in America, that's a win.
▶ 1:26:53Uh not just for myself, but for our country, we have 7 million units right now that we need. And so the more we can cut those unit down and get more people in America to be homeowners to living in a home, uh that's success.
▶ 1:27:04Let me just let me just stop you there. I think you you you're smelling what I'm cooking here, right? We got to get serious about increasing supply and I'm with you 100% on home ownership. I do
▶ 1:27:12But it's also about renters. My grandparents had one job their career and they stayed in one place. Young people today have seven jobs before they're 40. So it's also about renters. And anyway, I'm I I appreciate your acknowledgement of the supply side is we got to get serious about that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:27:28I'm happy to work with you, sir.
▶ 1:27:31Recognize the gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Bar, who is the chair of our financial institution subcommittee. Mr. Bar, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:27:38Secretary Turner, thanks for the great job you're doing. And I was uh so pleased to see that HUD announced in November changes to the continuum of care program, the largest federal homelessness program. Under President Trump and your leadership, uh we can now finally move away from the failed housing first methodology. Instead, focusing on actually solving the homelessness crisis in our country.
▶ 1:28:00Since the inception of housing first over a decade ago, homelessness, as you know, has only increased with data showing it reached an all-time high in 2024. That's why for multiple Congresses, I've introduced the Housing Plus Act that expands the toolbox at our disposal to address homelessness and introduces an all of the above approach. Specifically, my bill prohibits HUD from restricting COC funds to providers that provide wraparound services.
▶ 1:28:29And I appreciated your story about your uncle and how what he needed was not a free apartment. What he needed was wraparound services such as sober living or job requirements. and uh uh expanding the universe to include faith-based organizations that really love people and do a good job. Do you agree that instead of using a one-sizefits-all approach to homelessness, we should expand the type of providers that can not only help individuals get off the streets, but also ensure that they have positive long-term outcomes?
▶ 1:28:59Yes, sir. I do agree. Well, thank you for uh your taking proactive steps to work with us on uh uh moving away from housing first and towards a housing plus approach. Secretary Turner, uh the medium down payment for first-time home buyers is 9%, making it challenging for many Americans to achieve the American dream of home ownership. Innovative solutions such as down payment assistance through shared appreciation mortgages can help bridge the affordability gap.
▶ 1:29:29With a shared appreciation mortgage loan, the borrower agrees to give the lender a portion of the future appreciation of the home's value in exchange for a lower interest rate, a smaller down payment, and/or closing cost assistance, making home ownership more affordable, reducing monthly payments or upfront costs. Has HUD assessed this new asset pool that can assist first-time home buyers with down payment assistance?
▶ 1:29:56Uh, yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman. As you said and I've alluded to, you know, there's many ideas, as you know, that are out there. We see the president and others taking bold steps to bring down housing affordability. Uh I do want to work with you and your team on this idea that you just presented to me to see how we can help uh people in America, you know, to achieve the American dream of owning a home. And so I do look forward to uh working with you on that.
▶ 1:30:19And also, I want to circle back on your continuum of care, your heart for that for not just housing people, but to provide wraparound services for people. My heart is that we don't have more homeless people. My heart is that we get people off the streets, get them treated, get them transformed, and to live a life of self-independence and sustainability. Our faith faith groups around the country are the ones that have been doing the work for decades, long before the government uh was helping in homelessness.
▶ 1:30:44And so, we want to expand that and uh bring people to the table like our faith-based groups and others that are actually bringing results for our homelessness.
▶ 1:30:51Well, thank you so much. and I just for the life of me don't understand why we can't get more [clears throat] bipartisan support for this idea of expanding the the the tools in our toolbox. Uh if you want housing first,
▶ 1:31:04maybe that's appropriate for some, but for a lot of people, they need the wraparound services. So, I appreciate uh your shift in in approach. Um, finally, Secretary Turner, at the end of 2024, the outstanding volume of family residential construction and land development loans was 89.5 billion across FDIC insured institutions, with community banks holding 56% of the market share.
▶ 1:31:27The outsized role of our smallest institutions in this market stems from their local knowledge and their relationships with builders, which ultimately helps make housing more affordable for Americans. But overly burdensome regulations on our smallest banks stifle their ability to make construction loans in their communities. That's why Chairman Hill and I have introduced the Main Street Act to rightsize regulations so our community banks can focus on stimulating the local economy and the housing market and help Americans achieve the goal of home ownership.
▶ 1:31:56Secretary, do you agree that to solve the availability and affordability of housing in our country, we need to ensure that community banks are not subjected to the same rules as the largest banks?
▶ 1:32:07Yes, sir. And I know that you and uh Chairman Hill, you know, he have great expertise when it comes to banking, in particular, community banking. I'm a fan uh and in favor of community banks, credit unions, and others. Uh so I believe the less regulation that we have on community banks in order for them to serve people to uh be homeowners uh is a step forward that we need to take. Very looking forward to working with you and your team.
▶ 1:32:30Well and finally I would just uh urge you also to support raising the public welfare investment limit and this is really for the bank regulators. Um raise it uh through um unlock more bank capital for affordable housing. And with that I yield back.
▶ 1:32:44Thank you sir.
▶ 1:32:44The gentleman from Illinois Mr. Foster, the ranking member of the subcommittee on financial institutions, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:32:51Yeah, thank you. And I and I share the u the chairman's uh uh empathy and sympathy for small community banks. They're really important to this and I hope that they listen to the small community banks. Their number one request right now is stop the crypto uh stable coin threat to their business model. This is just something that um you know that they're all on high alert about and I hope that my Republican colleagues listen uh to the dangers that presents to the small community banks that have supported housing for so long.
▶ 1:33:19Um you know for most of the last decade I represented Joliet, Illinois, a city with a lot of um a lot of challenges and a lot of promise and there were two um two public housing projects sort of at the extreme difference in performance. Uh the starting with a good story Liberty Meadows was built. It is a rent to own thing for first-time owner owners mixed income. And when I first went through went to that right after it was built, when I started representing um Joliet, uh it looked beautiful. You could not I literally got lost there.
▶ 1:33:49I could not tell the difference between Liberty Meadows and the adjacent normal normal looking suburbs. Uh and it was a rent to own thing. And when I asked about it that I was told the detail was if you stayed current on your rent, they were given training on how to maintain a house. And if you stayed current on your rent for 10 or 15 years, you ended up owning that property. And that and I went through there um uh 10 years later and looked and the thing still looked like a normal suburb.
▶ 1:34:17The houses had been maintained fully and and most of those people I imagine by now are now owning those houses. And that was a success. One of my other, I guess you could call it a joy of representing Joliet, was getting in an excavator and helping tear down Fair View homes, which was a failed uh public housing project. And when I ripped those apart, I was flabbergasted to see there was like zero insulation on them.
▶ 1:34:43And if you're trying to operate in either in the summer or winter, the utility costs, and I talked to some of the residents, they said um when they moved out of Fairview homes into a normal place, uh they just was amazed at how the the utility bills were so much lower because and so there's this trade-off always. Do you want to make a lot of cheap units with high utility costs or are you going to actually put the money up front? Now, um our our president at Davos, uh you know, talked couple of interesting things relative to housing.
▶ 1:35:12One of them uh uh which I'll get to the connection soon was to demand that the builders of data centers build the power generation uh so that they don't cause the electric prices to get bit up. As you remember um you know one of the main promises that President Trump got elected on is in his first year in office he would drop electrical and gas bills by a factor or two. Okay.
▶ 1:35:33I take it you're you don't have a plan to execute that since that time out yes yesterday and the prices have not gotten dropped by 50% but actually increased uh so that what we have to do is if we're going to make progress on utility bills we're going to have to provide higher quality units and it is tough because anyone in charge of this whether it's a commercial builder or public sector wants to build lots of units and doesn't focus on the utility bill and everyone that studies this says we underinvest in it and everyone who studies
▶ 1:36:03this issue says you know what are called megawws are much cheaper than megawws if you're forced to either um either you know build new generating capacity that costs a certain amount of money it's much cheaper to fund uh efficiency improvements and so one of the ways that I hope your administration looks into solving this problem is to make the builders of data centers instead of having to build new megawws can build new megawws by actually uh you know subsidizing saying better insulation,
▶ 1:36:34higher efficiency, modern appliances because that was one of the key differences between Liberty Meadows. You know, the at the top of the the value proposition to renters there, they said, "You're because we put in high efficiency uh high efficiency appliances because they're well insulated, everything that makes the utility cost low, it'll be a good deal.
▶ 1:36:54You'll be able to afford that rent and afford to eventually own the property." And so I why don't you try to jump from one agency to another and look and talk to the department of energy when they set down the rules for data centers tell them let make sure that the data centers when they're in when they faced with the question of putting you know we're spending trillions of dollars on these data centers okay and so if take a small amount of that money put it into energy efficiency improvements for workforce housing and I think we'll get a societal return on investment
▶ 1:37:25that that you'll be proud of forever. Okay, thank you. Just in my um last few seconds here, um there's also this question of whether of blocking institutional investors uh from investing in single family homes. You know, I was around during the crisis when nobody there were these neighborhoods being abandoned, the copper ripped out of things for, you know, the houses were and neighborhoods were being gutted. The only buyers then were um you know, were institutional investors. So, go slow with that.
▶ 1:37:55There it is not an unmitigated time. The gentleman's time is expired.
▶ 1:37:58Thank you, sir.
▶ 1:37:59I now recognize myself for five minutes for questioning.
▶ 1:38:04Mr. Secretary, it's good to see you
▶ 1:38:06Uh, thank you for being here today. Very important topic, and I'm glad to see that my bill HR 5520, the portal for appraisal licensing act, was actually noticed for this hearing. Well, I believe that state regulators should continue to serve as the primary regulators of the industry. also see a clear need to streamline the licensing process as more appraisers operate across state lines. Secretary Turner, another area where appraisers could benefit from a streamlined process is HUD's appraisal complaint resolution procedures.
▶ 1:38:37I applaud your work to end DEI initiatives at HUD and specifically your recent announcement regarding disperate impact theory. As you know in your comments, the disperate impact framework has too often been applied in ways that treat appraisers as convenient enforcement agents are enforcement convenient enforcement targets without clear evidence of intent or appraisal standards violations.
▶ 1:39:04What steps is HUD taking to reduce the backlog of unresolved appraisal complaints and ensure that appraisers are not subjected to prolonged uncertainty or reputational damage when no violation exists.
▶ 1:39:16Well, thank you, Congressman. I appreciate that. We, as I said before, you know, when we came in, we want to uh a big goal is to streamline all of our processes as you've alluded to in particular. Uh and you talk about the appraisal process and so our housing uh staff, our housing team, uh our FHO team have done a great job in streamlining these processes. Uh and we will continue to do so. When we came in, you know, the financial controls weren't there. They were weakened. There was a blind eye turned, you know, to transparency and accountability.
▶ 1:39:47But I think in the last 12 months uh that our team has done an extremely good job uh of streamlining these processes for the private sector uh and we will continue to do that sir. And also you know we want to um investigate real discrimination cases uh and not phantom discrimination cases and I believe that the American people deserve that.
▶ 1:40:08uh in the Biden administration, there was a 70% backlog of these cases uh that did not even meet the 100 day statutory requirement uh as it pertains to discrimination. So, we're back on track. Uh we have a great team and we'll continue to streamline these so that the uh industry can move
▶ 1:40:25Well, thank you for your work there. I want to shift uh quickly over to uh notice to vacate. Uh, is it HUD's view that the CARES Act temporary pandemic era 30-day notice to vacate requirement was never intended to be a permanent federal overlay on state landlord tenant
▶ 1:40:43Yes, sir.
▶ 1:40:44Thank you. As I do as well, does HUD currently support maintaining the 30-day federal notice to vacate requirement or does the administration agree it's appropriate for Congress to sunset this pandemic in uh era mandate?
▶ 1:40:57Yes, sir.
▶ 1:40:57You agree that we should end that? Thank you. While Congress considers my bill, the Respect State Housing Laws Act, is HUD taking any administrative steps to acknowledge the temporary nature of the CARES Act requirements such as issuing clarifying guidance, updating compliance materials, or preparing for a transition back to the state level notice rules?
▶ 1:41:17Yes, sir. We are working uh diligently on that as you know with our team.
▶ 1:41:21Well, thank you. Would you agree that eliminating the federal notice requirement as my bill does would reduce confusion in the housing market by eliminating multiple sometimes conflicting notice timelines?
▶ 1:41:30Uh yes sir. I know that that's been a burdensome process, you know, conflicting process and so anything that can tear that down, yes sir, we do
▶ 1:41:38Well, thank you. Uh in conversations with HUD stakeholders, including public housing agencies and affordable housing operators, have you heard concerns about the administrative burdens created by the existence of the federal notice requirement? Yes. And I know that our our team down at housing obviously they hear uh more than me, but that has been something that we have discussed and that I heard of. Yes, sir.
▶ 1:41:58All right. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 1:42:01Thank you, [snorts] sir.
▶ 1:42:03The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gonzalez, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:42:08Thank you. Um and and thank you, Mr. Secretary, for joining us today. Mr. Secretary, I can't help but, you know, listening to some of your comments earlier today of you so loosely using the word of illegal aliens and um I think coming from Texas and being an ordained minister, you know, it's offensive, right, to our community. And I know you're trying really hard to fit into this administration, but it's offensive and it's offensive to the same people that you preach and the members of your church in Dallas.
▶ 1:42:38And that's some something I I I had to comment and I hope that you can think about that and pray about that and hopefully change that behavior because it's wrong and it's not a Christian thing to do. Um I'd like to turn my question uh Mr. Secretary to a more serious issue that we have at hand and that's housing affordability in this country.
▶ 1:42:57Um, and we have to be honest about that because while we talk about immigrants, um, 30% of construction workers in this country are immigrants and in Texas about 40% of construction workers are immigrants. And in your city of Dallas, in Dallas, in the Dallas Fort Worth area, Houston, San Antonio, that number goes up to about 60%. Uh, depending where you are.
▶ 1:43:24And um just recently I met with the South Texas Builders Association and had a very candid conversation about the the labor shortage that we're suffering in Texas and across the country. Just last year u it was shown that we would have had 400,000 homes less built in this country if it had not been for immigrant labor. Right now I have builders, I have realtors, I have lenders, I have titled companies coming to me.
▶ 1:43:51These are folks who supported President Trump in his last election who came to me and said what nobody else would say out loud. We need immigrants to build America. And we cannot do it without immigrant labor. We have a labor shortage in this country. We spe especially have a labor shortage in uh carpentry and in framing uh in brick and tile laying. And we and I know people say, "Well, we need to build our workforce." Well, we probably do need to build our workforce, but we're not going to do that overnight. What are we doing?
▶ 1:44:20And what are you telling the president um about these policies that are effectively killing any real chance of solving the housing affordability in this country?
▶ 1:44:30Well, thank you, Congressman. I appreciate you being here. As a fellow Texan, I'm a fourth generation Texan. Uh and I want to go back to the comment you said that is offensive. Uh I don't believe that it is offensive. I understand where it's coming from. Uh but as a pastor, you know, when I call black people black, that's not offensive. And so there's nothing that I'm gonna say,
▶ 1:44:50but there are words that you can call black people that would be offensive. Correct. It
▶ 1:44:52is. But and but I do I'm not being
▶ 1:44:55Well, anyway, let's let's talk about what we're doing in the administration to to inc to solve our labor shortage.
▶ 1:45:00Gotcha. I just wanted to uh recognize that I think you're wrong about me being a pastor. Uh and so I do understand uh that the language that I use is very important. So uh but I'm not being offensive. Uh the American uh people, we have plenty American people for American And that's my concentration.
▶ 1:45:20To say that we have to have uh migrants to do these jobs, I believe uh is a slap in the face for the American people.
▶ 1:45:27Well, we have a labor shortage.
▶ 1:45:28We need to increase the trades in our country. We need to bring back manufacturing in our country that reclaiming my time. We do need to do that, but we're not we're not going to do that overnight. How are we going to solve the the housing crisis that we have in this country today and that we have in Texas that I'm sure you're very well aware of? We have a housing shortage. We have a labor shortage. Um, we have uh projects that are on hold across the state of Texas and probably across the country because we don't have the labor to do it.
▶ 1:45:54And the only labor that is willing to do it is mostly immigrant labor that's doing some of the most dangerous work and the hardest work in this country that I think was exemplified when we had that the the bridge that that that uh collapsed here in Baltimore. We really need to have a serious conversation on addressing the labor shortage for this country. These are Donald Trump's supporters. These people voted for Trump. They thought he was going to help the country and he's actually hurt them.
▶ 1:46:22Framing prices in my district have doubled this year alone because of the labor shortage. That's just the framing of it. You can keep on going. Carpentry, uh, brick laying, roofing, those are all labor uh, immigrant labor forces that are that are handling most of that for the country. But especially in states in the largest and most in the fastest growing states like Texas, Florida, New York, California, and many other places in this country. This is a serious conversation that can only be addressed by you and this president.
▶ 1:46:51And I really hope y'all can do that.
▶ 1:46:53Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.
▶ 1:46:55I yield back. I think we're
▶ 1:46:56gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes another Texan, the Honorable Roger Williams, who's chair of the House Small Business Committee. Mr. Williams, you're recognized for five
▶ 1:47:07Thank you, Mr. chairman and hello to my friend and my church friend. Good to see you. Thanks for being here,
▶ 1:47:12Mr. Secretary. In communities across the country, uh especially in districts like mine in Texas, and you know where that is in North Texas, housing is often built by small family-owned builders who operate on tight margins and rely on predictable timelines to stay afloat. These small businesses are deeply rooted in their communities, but do not have a army of lawyers or compliance officers to manage complex federal processes. So every added form, review or delay increases financing cost and uncertainty.
▶ 1:47:40And for small builders, even modest delays can result in increased costs that jeopardize the future of the entire project. So Mr. Secretary, how can HUD better tailor its program so timing and compliance do not disproportionately harm small
▶ 1:47:55Well, thank you, sir, and it's good to see you as always, and I'll make sure that I tell uh Dr. Graham that I had opportunity to speak with you today.
▶ 1:48:02Uh you know, it is it's the regulatory environment. uh that is crippling our small businesses in including builders uh to work with localities, to work with mayors, to work with planning and zoning uh to make sure that they take inventory of their regulations uh has been something I have been pushing and encouraging and traveling the state, traveling the country and meeting with these leaders to take a look at their regulations and see how they can bring them down so that they can unleash uh innovative and uh creativity from our small business, our
▶ 1:48:33small builders around our country and so I'm with you and I agree with you on that and and it's a big push that we have to make. We can do what we can from the federal level and we are doing that from HUD as I said before and taking down the affirmatively further and fair housing rule restoring local control. Uh and so I think the two working together as a whole of a government uh is how we can unleash and help small businesses
▶ 1:48:55uh in smaller and rural communities. Community banks and local leaders are the primary source for financing housing projects. Now, these institutions h know their communities best. They work closely with local builders and play an essential role in getting housing projects off the ground. However, when federal housing programs become too complex or uncertain, that complexity can affect whether local lenders are willing to participate in a project at all. So, Mr.
▶ 1:49:20Secretary, could you elaborate on how reducing federal complexity regulations could make housing projects more attractive to community banks and to local lenders?
▶ 1:49:30Oh, yes, sir. I think that anything that we can take that's burdensome or duplicative uh as it pertains to this is something that can help our local community banks and if you have ideas sir things that you're working on please bring them to us. We'll be happy to work with you and your team on that.
▶ 1:49:45We're reducing a lot of regulations and yes sir SBA etc is doing some good things. Uh many of HUD's core housing projects were designed decades ago for very different housing market than we have today. And while construction cost, financing, and building methods have changed, many federal requirements have stayed the the same. This is why the housing for the 21st century act take necessary approach to modernizing outdated programs, cutting unnecessary red tape, and restoring flexibility for states, local governments, and housing providers.
▶ 1:50:14So my last question to you, Mr. Secretary, is can you explain why modernizing HUD's statutory framework is critical to increasing housing supply
▶ 1:50:24Oh, yes, sir. I mean, and when you talk about manufactured housing codes or you talk about different codes across the agency, anytime we can modernize those and streamline those, the efficiency uh is better, the cost is down, which both of those things help and impact the housing affordability issue that we have going on in our country.
▶ 1:50:42Well, thank you and do say hello to Pastor Jack Graham. Appreciate it. And I yield my time back, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:50:48Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes another Texan, the Honorable Mr. Green of Houston, Texas, who's the ranking member on our oversight and investigation subcom. Miss Green, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:51:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the ranking member as well. Thank the witness for appearing today. Um, Mr. Secretary, do you believe that racism exists in housing?
▶ 1:51:11Could you repeat that, sir? Do you believe that racism exists in housing? Sir, what I believe is that to achieve the American dream of home ownership in our country, uh there's a lot of uh barriers to that goal.
▶ 1:51:30Is racism one of those barriers? Mr.
▶ 1:51:34I believe in uh Mr. Secretary,
▶ 1:51:38helping people to achieve the American
▶ 1:51:39Mr. Secretary, I appreciate your comments. Excuse me. I appreciate your comments about the American dream, Mr. Secretary, but we're talking about racism right now.
▶ 1:51:49Racism. Let me just read something to you. Uh the National Fair Housing Alliance uh has condemned the administration and they've done so because some 400 employees received notice that they were going to be fired. And this is something that dates back to the 15th of October 2025. Do you know how many employees have been fired at HUD? Uh Mr. Secretary?
▶ 1:52:15Uh yes, sir.
▶ 1:52:16How many? Well, we gave uh employee
▶ 1:52:19How many were fired if you would please?
▶ 1:52:21About 2400 people took the DRP. Sir,
▶ 1:52:24how many were fired? 2400 took the DRP. How many were fired?
▶ 1:52:28They were all voluntary.
▶ 1:52:30I see. Okay. And uh how many were fired from the um area that deals with fair housing and uh equal opportunity? How many from that area? Sir, I can get those exact numbers for you, but I know 2400 people took the DRP. Um, this uh indication that I have indicates that the administration is completely destroying the federal government's capacity to address housing discrimination. That's why I ask you about racism.
▶ 1:53:01Racism is pretty important, still happening in this country, and we need a HUD secretary that realizes this and is not afraid to say it on national TV at prime time. Are you are you have do you have some constonnation about saying that racism exists in housing?
▶ 1:53:14Sir, I don't have any consternation.
▶ 1:53:15Okay. Well, then do what? Tell me tell me what are you doing to enforce tell me what are you doing
▶ 1:53:21to help us prevent people from discriminating when it comes to housing and persons wanting to acquire a house or a home?
▶ 1:53:27Yes, sir.
▶ 1:53:28What are you doing?
▶ 1:53:29I'll repeat this. I I have no
▶ 1:53:31Okay, you you have no constitution, but tell me what you're doing now. That's kind of important. What are you doing?
▶ 1:53:35Thank you, Mr. Green. So what we're doing is investigating real discrimination and not phantom discrimination. Uh and that's my job as
▶ 1:53:43Okay. How are you how you doing it?
▶ 1:53:45We have a great staff. We have a great staff at FHO.
▶ 1:53:48Okay. But tell me how are you doing? What are they doing to investigate it? What what methodology are they
▶ 1:53:53We're upholding the Fair Housing Act.
▶ 1:53:56what methodology are they utilizing? Are you familiar with something called testing, Mr. Secretary?
▶ 1:54:01Sir, repeat that please.
▶ 1:54:05Yes. Okay. Are you Well, tell me what's happening with testing
▶ 1:54:09as it pertains to fair housing.
▶ 1:54:14Sir, could you be more clear for me,
▶ 1:54:17You're the secretary of HUD.
▶ 1:54:18I know it.
▶ 1:54:20You're not aware that there's something called testing.
▶ 1:54:24Excuse me, sir.
▶ 1:54:27Could we get that gentleman to testify, Mr. Chairman?
▶ 1:54:29Yeah. The fifth grant. Yes, sir.
▶ 1:54:33so you went from discrimination to FIP
▶ 1:54:36Okay. Well, tell me what you're doing in the area of testing.
▶ 1:54:40Sir, our office of fair housing and equal opportunity are carrying out their mission and the fiduciary responsibility every single
▶ 1:54:46What are you doing in the area of How many people have you tested? How many give me the percentage of people that have been tested?
▶ 1:54:53I can get that number for you, sir. I'm happy to do it.
▶ 1:54:56Okay. And tell me how would they perform a test?
▶ 1:54:59I can get that for you, sir.
▶ 1:55:00No, no, no. How would a test? This is something you would know because this is the methodology, the means by which testing is done. So I'm telling I'm asking you now to let the world know that you understand this process. How is testing performed?
▶ 1:55:14Mr. Chairman, looks like we need to take a moment for the secretary. Can can you take this off of my time, please?
▶ 1:55:20Uh Mr. Green, we have a whole office that does that.
▶ 1:55:23Okay. Well, tell me how do they do it
▶ 1:55:25in this time that we have? We we don't have time to walk through the
▶ 1:55:28Yes. Yes, you do. This is my time. You've got time because I say so. How do they do it?
▶ 1:55:35I understand, sir. What?
▶ 1:55:36How do they do it? You do not know. Listen, if you're the secretary of HUD and there's fair housing discrimination taking place, then you should know what testing is.
▶ 1:55:48Sir, I do know what testing is.
▶ 1:55:50Okay. Well, then how is it performed
▶ 1:55:51in our offices? We are going Let me end with this real discrim.
▶ 1:55:55I have to It's my time. I reclaim my time. Thank you very much. This this is an indication of how much the Trump administration gentleman focuses on invidious discrimination.
▶ 1:56:06Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Davidson, who chairs our subcommittee on national security. Mr. Davidson, you're recognized for five
▶ 1:56:14Uh thank you, Chairman Hill. Secretary Turner, thank you for agreeing to be our HUD Secretary and uh leading that department. I I want to start by recognizing that reforms uh you've already begun refocusing the department on its core mission, cutting waste, rolling back misguided Biden era regulations, and putting taxpayers and residents first. This is a welcome course correction after years when HUD's bureaucracy expanded while accountability and housing conditions conditions deteriorated.
▶ 1:56:43The scale of mismanagement you inherited is enormous. I mean, they they called the NICHA bust one of the largest fraud cases in American history. Uh HUD's inspector general identified more than 33,000 life-threatening deficiencies in public housing requiring immediate correction, thousands of which were never resolved or even certified as fixed.
▶ 1:57:08And when you look at places like NICHA, like Washington DC's public housing authority, where she became the acting HUD secretary, when Secretary Fudge resigned, this person who's completely mismanaged Washington DC's public housing authority where 50% of the units aren't even available because not because of racism, because they don't fix the place, they're run down, they're not inhabitable, and uh all kinds of code violations.
▶ 1:57:37So, you know, preventing waste, fraud, and abuse is a core priority for this administration. Uh, beyond Doge, every department is working on that. So, could you give us an update on how that uh fight to get everybody that does have public housing uh quality safe uh housing?
▶ 1:57:56Yes, sir. And we are, as you know, holding uh public housing authorities accountable as it pertains to who's living inside of public housing authorities. Uh, I went to NICHA uh, personally. I visited there. While I was there, there was a 21-year-old young man that was murdered uh, at a NICHA facility and no one could know who did uh, the offense, who committed the crime.
▶ 1:58:17And so, uh, NICHA has a lot of problems which I know we don't have time to address today, but for NICHA and other public housing authorities, we have mandated that they send us a comprehensive account of everyone that's living inside of a HUDfunded home uh to make sure that American taxpayer dollars are used for American citizens only.
▶ 1:58:36Yeah, thank you for that. That's a big problem with a lot of public housing authorities. You know, we don't necessarily have a problem in Ohio where the state government decided intentionally to include illegals uh in in our safety net. Uh but some states do. We were seeing that in Minnesota. Uh and you know, I will say that, you know, cracking down on scam centers, which is what we do in the national security elicit finance lane.
▶ 1:59:02Not a hint of partisanship unless the scam center happens to be like a Somali daycare or something like that. So hopefully that too will be bipartisan and we'll cut down on the fraud, waste and abuse. When you look at uh public housing authorities, do you know or could you get to me how many are currently in receiverhip?
▶ 1:59:20Because you have local communities whether it's you know Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnati, Columbus, Akan, Cleveland, all over Ohio and it doesn't get the news that Washington DC and uh you know Nicha does but in Middletown Ohio we have problems with public housing. So, could you get me a list of all the ones that are in
▶ 1:59:39Yes, sir. We'll get that to you.
▶ 1:59:41You know, in in terms of um what kind of legislation could we do right now that would help you be better equipped to do your job? I think about 30 major programs in the pro. I've got a bill uh that I was working on with Mr. Clever, with Secretary Fudge that would help reauthorize some of these programs and streamline them.
▶ 2:00:00I wanted to get two Republicans and two de Democrats together uh and make it so you can't just completely eliminate the spending, but you also can't launch more free stuff for more people. So, you put the guard rails around so even if they did agree, uh they can't do it. But you could refine it and deal with things like benefit cliffs and standard definitions of uh you know, means testing. We got three or four different definitions. We got multiple definitions for work requirements.
▶ 2:00:30But one of the fundamental problems, you have lots of these programs that in Congress aren't even reauthorized. Now, the appropriators cut the checks. So, at some level, that gives you the ability to do it. But is there a a way that we could be helpful to you as you go and tackle these challenges?
▶ 2:00:47Yes, sir. And, you know, working with Congress and working with uh the members of this committee and your team uh from a legislative standpoint, we're happy uh to do that. So, thank you for asking that. uh we'll do what we do from hub but legislation often does help us uh as we go forward with our mission.
▶ 2:01:03Yeah. Thank you for doing it and as I say hopefully we'll be a good resource for you and wish you great success. I yield back.
▶ 2:01:10Gentleman yields back. The gentleman from New York, Mr. Torres, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:01:15Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Secretary, what is the estimate estimated capital need of the New York City Housing Authorities's public housing stock? the estimated capital need of their public housing stock
▶ 2:01:27in New York City.
▶ 2:01:28Well, I know they had about 597,000 units as we speak.
▶ 2:01:32What's the estimated capital need? What would it take to bring the New York City Housing Authorities public housing stock into a state of good repair?
▶ 2:01:39That's a great question, sir. I can get that answer for you. But what I do know and what I have been,
▶ 2:01:43the answer is 80 billion. The answer is
▶ 2:01:45About 250 million in already.
▶ 2:01:48How much annual capital funding? Sir, let me ask my question. Okay.
▶ 2:01:53How much annual capital funding does NICHA receive from HUD?
▶ 2:01:57I'll get that for you, sir.
▶ 2:01:59It's around 700 to $800 million per
▶ 2:02:03And so at a rate of $800 million a year, how long would it take to address an $80 billion capital need?
▶ 2:02:13I'll give you your hand. It's 80 billion divided by 800 million.
▶ 2:02:17Sir, I was writing down a note. I'm sorry for the delay. At current funding
▶ 2:02:22it would take a century
▶ 2:02:24to address the capital need at the New York City Housing Authority.
▶ 2:02:29Do you believe that an annual appropriation of $800 million is sufficient to address a capital need of $80 billion?
▶ 2:02:37What I do believe is $800 million a year is sufficient to take care of the needs that NICHA has. What I need NICA to do is to be better.
▶ 2:02:43You think 800 million is sufficient to address a capital need of 80 billion.
▶ 2:02:47It's sufficient to carry out the job they need. Do do you believe 100 years, let me finish my question. Do you believe 100 years
▶ 2:02:54is a reasonable timeline to bring public housing into a state of good repair for hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers?
▶ 2:03:01Again, what I'm going to say is this. The funds that NICHA has, it's not a funding issue, sir. It's a stewardship issue. NICHA is about $250 million in the rears already,
▶ 2:03:13right? $800 million in annual funding for an $80 billion capital.
▶ 2:03:17It's not about the money, sir. that they get. It's not about the amount, it's about the management of it.
▶ 2:03:21I mean, a 100red years is a long time. I mean, makes a 50-year mortgage look like a short-term commitment. And that 100red-year estimate understates the true depth of the crisis because the capital needed, as you know, is not static. Buildings continue to age. Systems continue to fail. Deferred maintenance compounds over time. All while HUD remains content to keep public housing in a state of demolition by neglect. I have a question about home ownership. What is the median age of a first-time home buyer in America?
▶ 2:03:49It's 40 years right now.
▶ 2:03:5040. And suppose that buyer takes out a 50-year mortgage. How old would that home buyer be at at the end of the loan?
▶ 2:04:02I'm a first-time home buyer at 40 years
▶ 2:04:07Make sure his microphone's working.
▶ 2:04:10Can we stop the clock, please? divine intervention.
▶ 2:04:16Just a moment, Mr. Troy. Just quick check on the mic. Your time is
▶ 2:04:20reminds me of Greek tragedy when there's divine intervention to save the That's clever.
▶ 2:05:01Mr. Secretary, can we ask you just to slide slide over there real quick? It's working. Oh, it's working. Okay.
▶ 2:05:07So, I'll start the question. What What is the median age of a first-time home buyer in America?
▶ 2:05:12Okay. And suppose that buyer takes out a 50-year mortgage. How old would that buyer be at the end of the loan?
▶ 2:05:2290. Okay. What is the average life expectancy in the United States?
▶ 2:05:28You tell me. I think it's around 77 for
▶ 2:05:307 78. Uh, so under Donald Trump's vision of a 50-year mortgage, the typical firsttime home buyer would not live long enough to fully own their home, dying 12 years before the mortgage matures. In Donald Trump's America, mortgages would have longer life expecties than first-time home buyers. Is it generally true in mortgage markets that longer loan terms carry higher interest rates?
▶ 2:05:56Mr. Torres, the 50-year mortgage was an idea that was presented. I don't believe that it is the not responsive to the question I just asked. I'm asking is it generally true in mortgage markets
▶ 2:06:06that longer loan terms carry higher interest rates?
▶ 2:06:09It's a yes or no question.
▶ 2:06:10Yes, sir. I believe that is true.
▶ 2:06:12Yes. So, by way of example,
▶ 2:06:14the 50-year mortgage by way of example, that was just an idea. Let me finish. Not a policy.
▶ 2:06:17You answered my question.
▶ 2:06:19So, by way of example, a 30-year mortgage is typically offered at a higher interest rate than a 15-year mortgage. Correct? A 30-year mortgage does not have a higher interest rate than a 15-year. It
▶ 2:06:33depends on the lender, sir.
▶ 2:06:35What is the existing What is the average rate for a 30-year mortgage at the
▶ 2:06:39Right now, I believe it's 5.8%.
▶ 2:06:42According to the Freddy M survey, as of January 15, 2026, the average rate is 6.06%. What is the average rate for a 15-year mortgage?
▶ 2:06:50I believe the 30 years at 5.8%, sir. I can get the average on.
▶ 2:06:54So, the Freddy Mac survey says the 15 years is 5.38%. So that's a difference of 68 basis points between a 30-year mortgage and a 50-year mortgage.
▶ 2:07:02Mr. Torres, I actually this is this is housing affordability hearing.
▶ 2:07:06So if we can get to that part,
▶ 2:07:08I mean home home ownership is relevant to housing affordability, right? Interest rates are relevant to housing
▶ 2:07:13The interest rates have come down since we've come into
▶ 2:07:15whether you're in a lifetime of debt because you're paying off a 15-year mortgage is relevant to housing
▶ 2:07:20Interest rates are at the all time.
▶ 2:07:21We need to probably define what affordability means to you. So
▶ 2:07:23I think we can agree on that. They're lower. to learn about testing and about
▶ 2:07:26Gentleman's time is expired.
▶ 2:07:29Gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Rose, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:07:33Thank you, Chairman Hill, and and thank you, Ranking Member Waters for holding this important hearing, and thank you to Secretary Turner uh for being here with us today. Secretary Turner, our bipartisan bipartisan housing for the 21st Century Act, which this committee advanced in December, includes my housing supply expansion act of 2025.
▶ 2:07:52This legislation would finally remove the outdated federal chassis requirement that has long driven up the price of manufactured homes and limited innovation in the sector. You and I have spoken about this. You spent nine seasons in the NFL. So, you know how one bad rule can handcuff good teams. The federal requirement for a permanent chassis is a bit like the NFL's new onside kick rules. Everyone knows they don't work.
▶ 2:08:21They were meant to improve safety, but now Tim, teams have almost no chance of recovering the ball. You can imagine the frustration. Coaches still have creative ideas. Players still have the skill, but the rule book itself makes success almost impossible. That's where we are with this outdated statutory requirement. Everyone recognizes it slowing down innovation and driving up costs, but until Congress changes the rule book, no one can adapt.
▶ 2:08:49Can you explain how removing this statutory chassis requirement would help modernize manufactured housing, lower cost, and expand home ownership opportunities for uh many Americans?
▶ 2:09:01Yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman Rose. As you know, 22 million Americans live in manufactured housing across our country. Currently uh removing this permanent chassis rule will help in the flexibility and the efficiency of building manufactured housing which will uh be a great help in uh making up the gap in affordable housing uh in our country. It will streamline the process. It will make building uh more efficient, cheaper, and get to market quicker. And so uh we are obviously in great support of removing the permanent chassis rule.
▶ 2:09:31Thank you. I hope we can get that across the finish line along with all of the other great ideas that were a part of that legislation. Secretary Turner and and I hope the Senate will get off their butts as I've been saying recently and get that legislation across the finish line. Secretary Turner, while modernizing the chassis standards is a crucial step. Manufactured housing's potential goes far beyond that single issue.
▶ 2:09:54After four years of the Biden administration's failed housing policies, families across the country are still struggling with sky-high costs and limited options to achieve home ownership. Could you speak more broadly about the role manufactured housing can play in expanding access to affordable home ownership?
▶ 2:10:13Yes, sir. You know, when you think about a manufactured housing, it's not the model uh excuse me, the mobile homes of old. manufactured housing today is uh very modern uh very well built, has extra uh great amenities. Uh we had our innovative housing showcase here on the National Mall which you know sir and so many uh people came uh and showed creative ideas uh when it pertains to manufactured housing. Uh when you build manufactured housing, it also is is costefficient.
▶ 2:10:41It costs less to build almost half the price of a single family house as we know it in our country today. And so this gives opportunity to more Americans to become home owners. And so I believe that the manufactured housing uh industry plays a big role uh in uh addressing this housing affordability issue in our country.
▶ 2:10:58Thank you. Could not agree more, Secretary Turner. Under the Biden administration, HUD imposed mandatory minimum energy efficiency standards for multifamily housing that would have added significant construction cost without meaningful benefits. You've uh delayed implementation and are reviewing whether to rescend these requirements altogether. How much will eliminating these unnecessary Biden era energy mandates reduce construction cost and help increase affordable housing
▶ 2:11:29Well, yes sir. Anything we can do to take down the cost of building multif family or single family uh construction uh will help us in this housing affordability issue. uh these energy standards. Many builders today and developers are already building towards these energy standards. So, it's a duplicative process uh which is very burdensome. It adds about $30,000 per project or per house is being built. And so, taking this down uh is uh something that's going to help us uh to reduce the cost and increase the supply of housing in our country.
▶ 2:11:59Thank you, Secretary. and I really appreciate our recent conversation. Uh, and I've been impressed thus far with the actions you've taken to support homeowners and communities across the country. I'm eager to show you the impact of HUD's work in Tennessee's sixth congressional district. Scheduling permitting, would you would you be willing to visit my district and meet with local stakeholders, tour housing projects, and discuss ways HUDs can better serve our communities in Tennessee's sixth district?
▶ 2:12:25So, thank you, Congressman Rose, for that invitation. I really appreciate it.
▶ 2:12:29Thank you. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:12:33Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes the gentleoman from Massachusetts. Miss Presley, you're recognized for five
▶ 2:12:41Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, Mr. Secretary, it is um unfortunate, unacceptable, and deeply disappointing that it took over a year for you to come before this committee, but you're here now. I don't have a lot of time, and I have a lot of ground to cover. So, let's get to it, and please try to answer as succinctly as possible. Um, since Donald Trump came into office, how many people at HUD, Mr. Secretary, have been fired, laid off, or otherwise left the agency? Just the total number, please.
▶ 2:13:08Ma'am, about 2 2400 people took the DRP.
▶ 2:13:13I'm sorry. The total number at HUD who have been fired, laid off, or otherwise left the agency?
▶ 2:13:24Yes, ma'am. 2400 people voluntarily to the DRP.
▶ 2:13:28That's complete. Okay, that's you're not answering the question. I'm going to reclaim my time. So, I will just tell you. Okay. Um, the point is when you take a a a hatchet to the infrastructure of our federal government, it is a tremendous disservice not only to those dedicated, hardworking employees, those patriots who could have gone anywhere with their talents, but they love their country and
▶ 2:13:58they wanted to be in service to their country. It is incredibly disruptive to their livelihoods and their lives. It is not efficient because it is a disservice to the people and the communities that they serve. People like in my district, the Massachusetts 7th, Claire Bergstresser, who was fired from the HUD region one office, which devastated her. But it means that the good work that she was doing is going undone.
▶ 2:14:25So these firings, these unlawful firings greatly reduce HUD's ability to fulfill its mission. So let me just build on that a little bit. On that note, Secretary Turner, for the record, can you tell us what is HUD's mission To provide access to quality, affordable, safe housing uh and to give access to people to achieve the American dream of home ownership ma'am is our mission at HUD.
▶ 2:14:56Let me read it word for word. The mission is to create to create strong inclusive communities and quality affordable homes for all. That is the mission of the department of housing and urban development. Now, I don't have any evidence that you actually know the mission statement because it seems you're actively undermining it.
▶ 2:15:22Since taking office, you have failed at sustainability and paying attention to the impact of the climate crisis and extreme temperatures. You have failed at inclusion. Again, this is a mission statement, by gutting the Fair Housing Office that fights against discrimination. And you are failing at addressing the affordability crisis. So if you have even a modicum of understanding of the mission statement, I'm not sure why you were actively uh undermining it. But but I'll go on.
▶ 2:15:51Donald Trump said that the affordable crisis, affordability crisis is a hoax. As a secretary of housing, do you believe there is a housing affordability crisis? Just yes or no in the interest of time.
▶ 2:16:07There is a housing affordability issue in our country. Yes, ma'am.
▶ 2:16:12And the president believes so you dis No, he said it was a hoax.
▶ 2:16:15The president believes propaganda. Donald Trump said the housing affordability crisis is a hoax and that proves he is taking both steps.
▶ 2:16:22He is as clueless about what is happening with the American people.
▶ 2:16:27I wouldn't say as he is clueless. He's not as clueless as Let me move on. Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my time. There is an affordability crisis. We're living it every day. The median age for first-time home buyers is 40 years old. We're pricing out young people and I believe your department is completely unaware of the fact that people in their twilight years who have given so much to this country. We have a gray wave of homelessness that your agency is ignoring of our elders. Now look at your Senate confirmation here.
▶ 2:16:55You talked about your football career and how you would often watch the film of your of your of your games to see what you're actually doing. Well, I have seen this film and you are failing. I feel bad for you. The Republicans put you in this role.
▶ 2:17:08I'm not sure which film you Excuse me, you're interrupting.
▶ 2:17:12I'm watching the film in real time. What's happening as you gut HUD and undermine and fail to meet I didn't ask you a question. I'm offering a a statement of fact in my opinion. You've been put in a position with no qualifications, no experience, and no training. And they are using you. They are using you as the poster child of their anti-dei crusade. And you are letting them. And it is shameful. and it is painful for me to watch.
▶ 2:17:39The Department of Housing and Urban Development is too important to be mismanaged under your leadership or lack
▶ 2:17:45Gentleoman's time is expired.
▶ 2:17:46Mr. Chairman, for the record, no one's using me. I wanted to be here.
▶ 2:17:51Thank you. I thank I thank the gentleman. Gentleoman addition, excuse me, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:17:57Gentleman from Ottawa. It's gentleman from Montana's time. The gentleman from Montana, Mr. Downing, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:18:03Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, I want to start first by applauding the work of this committee to overwhelmingly pass the Housing for the 21st Century Act, which smartly targets much of the overregulation that has driven up the cost of housing over many years. You know, there's more we can do and I I hope we take it up on the House floor very quickly. Secretary Turner, thank you so much. It's good to see you again. Thank you for being here. Uh, my first question focuses on an important constituency of mine, uh, Indian country tribes.
▶ 2:18:32You know, Indian country faces many unique challenges that make housing affordability more difficult to tackle than in other communities. And in Montana, we're home to 12 federally recognized Indian tribes and seven tribal reservations. You know, the primary law governing federal support for Indian housing is the Native American Housing Assistance and Self-depetination Act of 1996 or or Nahazda. This authorizes the Indian Housing Block Grant among other critical programs.
▶ 2:18:59and the authorization for these programs expired over a decade ago. The law has not been updated since 2008. Overall, do you believe this law has been successful in improving housing conditions in Indian country?
▶ 2:19:11Yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman. I appreciate you. As you know, I've traveled to many uh tribal nations around our country. We do support Nahazda uh through our ONAP office uh to make sure that uh tribes keep their sovereignty, flexibility uh and so we are in full support of NASA. Do you believe that Congress should reauthorize
▶ 2:19:31Yes, sir. I look forward to working with you and this committee on the reauthorization of NIHA.
▶ 2:19:35Are there specific changes that should be made to these programs to make them more effective?
▶ 2:19:40Uh we're happy to uh take those uh ideas and suggestions from you, sir, uh and your team to bring to our no uh ONAP office to make sure that we're implementing them appropriately. Well, thank you and I look forward to working with you to make sure that our tribal communities are not left out of these discussions about housing affordability. So, thank you.
▶ 2:20:00Uh, moving on, another issue that I hear frequently from many of my constituents from housing developers in Montana is the Build America by America or BABA uh on the cost of housing. You know, not only does it uh slow down lead time but also increases costs. You know, BABA was included in the 2021 infrastructure investment and jobs act and it requires federally funded infrastructure projects to contain materials made in the US specifically towards infrastructure.
▶ 2:20:29Yet in 2023, HUD issued guidance saying it also applies to HUD funded housing projects. Do you think it makes sense to apply BABA to HUD programs? So we are looking at this as you know with uh Baba as it pertains to HUD uh to provide flexibility uh to certain projects in certain places around our country and again you know we're happy to uh discuss ideas and strategies uh from your team and others to make sure that uh people are uh receiving the flexibility that they
▶ 2:20:59need as it pertains to building. Well, I I look forward to having that discussion with you and hopefully revisiting Baba on the guidance from HUD uh to see if this really should be applied here or was specifically meant to, you know, apply to infrastructure. So, um on that, Mr. Secretary, with my remaining time, is there anything else that you'd like to discuss about what HUD is doing under your leadership?
▶ 2:21:23Uh yes, sir. I appreciate that. You know, contrary to the belief of some uh that we've talked to this morning, we are very laser focused at HUD in helping the housing affordability crisis and tearing down regulations and streamlining our processes and making sure that we are upholding the Fair Housing Act to make sure that we are serving the American people to make sure that our homeless neighbors are taken care of, treated, and return to lives of full sustainability. Uh and I'm laser focused on that.
▶ 2:21:53uh and we will continue to do that. Thank you for your for your
▶ 2:21:56Well, thank you very much for this. I I look forward to working with you. And on that, Mr. Chair, I yield the remainder of my time.
▶ 2:22:02Gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleoman from Texas, Miss Garcia. You're recognized for five
▶ 2:22:07Thank you, Mr. Chair. And um this hearing of course has been long overdue and I think that we need to remind the secretary that housing is a human right. When you have a roof over your head, you have space for things. you have a space for your family uh and those around you. To begin with, I also want to remind the secretary of some of the things that HUD has done. Countless staff members and public servants who run important housing programs have been terminated.
▶ 2:22:34Multiple pending investigations, including fair housing and civil rights enforcement actions have been paused or delayed. The equal access rule is being undermined, leaving women, children, plus individuals, and others most vulnerable to discrimination. You, Mr. Secretary, also reportedly allowed Doge to gain undeterred access to personal identifiable information.
▶ 2:23:00And most recently, you announced a notice of proposed rulemaking which proposes to civically weaken desperate Mr. Turner, I am just completely baffled by your non-answers in avoiding of any of the comments and questions that some of my colleagues have answered. I'm a former judge. I have listened to many many witnesses and I frankly have never seen a witness so evasive uh and frankly in some cases disrespectful to the person asking the question.
▶ 2:23:30I think that's beneath your office. Uh, and I I'm so frustrated that I know I'm going to ask you a question that you're probably not going to answer, but I'm going to ask you anyway. How in the world do you really think that immigration impacts housing supply and drives up costs? Is that one of these phantom theories you keep talking about?
▶ 2:23:52Uh, no ma'am, it's not a phantom theory.
▶ 2:23:54Well, name some facts. It's data.
▶ 2:23:56Tell me the facts to support your
▶ 2:23:58Yes, ma'am. So out of the millions of unchecked and unvetted people that came across our border, 59% of these families use one or more of the welfare programs in this country.
▶ 2:24:13Tell me the basis of that comment. What is behind that $22 billion? Give me your source, sir. All of these things seem to be coming out of the book of Trump lies.
▶ 2:24:22Ma'am, everyone is talking about data. Are you frustrated with insurance? You're not going to answer my question. Let's just move on. All right.
▶ 2:24:30And let's move on by yielding my the rest of my time to my ranking member
▶ 2:24:39Uh thank you very much. Um, I'd like to know, um, last year you cut 780 staff and your 2026 budget proposed cutting $34 billion by eliminating entire housing programs like home, CDBG, housing counseling, all rental assistance and funding for the homeless. Is that correct,
▶ 2:25:10ma'am? 2400 people at HUD take the voluntary ask about I don't ask about any voluntary uh 2400 people who left. How many people did you and Elon Musk
▶ 2:25:232400 people to the DRP.
▶ 2:25:25Did Elon Musk come to your agency?
▶ 2:25:28Did you work with him on the interviews that he did and the firing that he did?
▶ 2:25:34Ma'am, Elon Musk was not allowed to do any firing at HUD. people asked you if he came to your agency and assisted in the firing of some of the 780 people. Anyhow, you're not going to answer that, but let me just ask you, when I compare that, you got to move uh to uh a new location. Is that right?
▶ 2:25:58Do you have a private gym for you and your family in that in that
▶ 2:26:03No, ma'am.
▶ 2:26:04Who is it for?
▶ 2:26:05The HUD family. Are you saying that your personal family will not be allowed to use the gym?
▶ 2:26:13You're misconstring a rumor. The gym is not for my indicate reclaiming my time. I want to know whether or not you have indicated that it must be for your private family
▶ 2:26:29Thank you very much. And I want to understand some of this construction. Do you have your own private elevator?
▶ 2:26:38I have an elevator at
▶ 2:26:39Do you have your own private elevator designed for this building?
▶ 2:26:44No, ma'am.
▶ 2:26:46Thank you very much. I also want to know uh do you have a new expansive dining room uh that you have helped to design that you'd like to have?
▶ 2:26:56No, ma'am. My current office has a dining room in it already.
▶ 2:26:59I didn't ask about your current office. I asked about the new office. You're very clever in the way that you try and act. I'm reclaiming my time. Can't say anything. Reclaiming my time.
▶ 2:27:10Don't speak when I'm speaking.
▶ 2:27:12The gentleoman The gentleoman from Texas's time has expired. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from South Carolina. Mr. Timman, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:27:22Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the secretary for being here today. Let's start by clearing up some things that were just talked about. Uh Mr. Secretary, if 8 million people entered this country illegally in 2024 and we only brought 2 million houses online, is that going to increase the cost of
▶ 2:27:41Okay. So, the Biden administration had unbridled illegal immigration. Uh, tens of millions of people entered this country and we were unable to keep up with the housing supply which caused prices to go up. Not to mention the fact that the Democrats spent $7 trillion during COVID which caused inflation which caused interest rates to go up. Uh so millions of Americans just like me um instead of having a 2.3% mortgage like I did a year ago now have a 6.8% 5-year ARM.
▶ 2:28:10I can't even get a 30-year fixed because that would have been 8.5. So the cost of my mortgage has gone up more than double because of the policies of the previous administration. That is exactly the result of Democrat policies and it it has adversely impacted millions of Americans and we are doing everything we can to get back to balance. Get back to balance. Um, Mr.
▶ 2:28:33Secretary, do you think that if somebody was considering coming to work at HUD that they would want a perk like a place to exercise before or after work?
▶ 2:28:43Yes, we have many people that use a gym currently at our building.
▶ 2:28:46You know, it's crazy. Congress actually has one of those, too. We have a staff gym. We have members gym. House and Senate side. So, it's almost like exercise is important and it's uh something that people expect and so I I appreciate that you have provided that for your uh federal employees. I think it's very appropriate.
▶ 2:29:05Yeah, I think good healthc care is good. You know, it's amazing how uh people will take rumors and run with them. Uh our HUD family has a gym right now in our new building. Our HUD family will have a gym. Uh, and I believe that's a tremendous asset for our people. Healthy body, healthy mind, productive work.
▶ 2:29:24I love it. I'm going to go to my prepared remarks now. Thank you. The timing of today's hearing could not be more important. As both the House and the Senate work to advance serious housing packages aimed at addressing housing affordability for the first time in my congressional career, your insight is both timely and greatly appreciated. I also want to thank you and your team for carrying out the president's agenda by modernizing outdated programs and lowering barriers to local investment in housing.
▶ 2:29:49Communities across the country rely on HUD not only to address long-term housing affordability, but also to help families recover when disaster strikes. In my district, in the upstate of South Carolina, Hurricane Helen caused significant damage to homes and infrastructure. Families and local leaders are still working to rebuild in many in many situations. Effective disaster recovery depends on getting the policy environment right. When federal programs are overly complex or slow to deploy, rebuilding is delayed and communities are left waiting far too long for help.
▶ 2:30:19Simplifying requirements, improving transparency, and providing greater flexibility can make a real difference for states and local governments working to deliver assistance quickly and responsibly. Mr. Secretary, how will HUD's streamlined CDBG disaster recovery guidance help states and local governments move more quickly from a disaster declaration to actually delivering rebuilding assistance to homeowners and renters?
▶ 2:30:43Thank you, Mr. Tim. As you know, we uh put out $12 billion in uh CDBGR this year. And streamlining these processes will get the funds and the resources out the door quicker and more appropriately to the people that are actually needing them. People that are rebuilding their lives because of a natural disaster. Uh during the Biden administration, this was not the case. But during this administration, uh at HUD, we are getting these funds out the door to the people who really need them.
▶ 2:31:08Thank you for that. As HUD works with grantees to implement these changes, how will the department ensure that smaller or rural communities with limited administrative capacity can fully take advantage of simplified documentation requirements and added flexibility without being slowed down by compliance uncertainty or federal red tape?
▶ 2:31:25Yes, sir. I think our universal notice will help in that that everybody will know exactly what information is required of them.
▶ 2:31:31Great. I I really appreciate with that. I think that we're moving in the right direction. Interest rates are coming down. Inflation is coming down. We're growing the economy. Uh border security has stopped the umbbr flow of illegal immigrants. And we're addressing the the million plus people in this country illegally that have had all of their due process that have uh committed violent crimes, rape, murder, uh human trafficking, arms trafficking.
▶ 2:31:55And these are the people that we are currently making sure uh leave our country to make our citizenry safe. So, we're moving in the right direction. And um I appreciate all your hard work. And with that, Mr. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:32:08Gentleman yields back. I recognize the ranking member for a unanimous consent.
▶ 2:32:12Mr. Chairman, I request unanimous consent to clarify that our families cannot use the member gym or the staff gym. Is that correct?
▶ 2:32:22That's certainly my understanding is that the gym in the in the capital complex is for members and there's also a workout facility for staff members.
▶ 2:32:31Mr. Chairman, that's not correct.
▶ 2:32:33Mr. Chairman,
▶ 2:32:34gentleman from South Carolina,
▶ 2:32:36spouses of members of Congress are allowed to use the members gem, but okay, we're good. Thank you.
▶ 2:32:42I gentleoman yields back. Uh the gentleoman from Georgia, Miss Williams, you're recognized.
▶ 2:32:49Thank you, Chairman Hill and Ranking Amendment Waters for this hearing today. Housing is something that I've been wanting to talk about. So, welcome, Secretary Turner. We've been waiting for
▶ 2:32:58Thank you.
▶ 2:32:58Um and I am glad to hear the conversation. Mr. Timmons has left now, but around exercise because I hope that that means he will sign on to my play act, which is bipartisan legislation to make sure that kids can get exercise in school. Just wanted to throw that in there. But let's get back to housing because so many Americans are hurting right now and they're filling the affordability crisis, which is not a hoax. When you're looking at your monthly check and you have more month than money, that's not a hoax.
▶ 2:33:28That's real life. And that's what so many Americans are facing right now. But one issue that is kind of abstract and a lot of people don't think about is thinking about home ownership and homes that have been in your family for generations. And Chairman Hill, I know that you have heard me talk about this many times. But I want to talk about how your most families, their home and their land, that will be their largest asset that they'll ever own.
▶ 2:33:55But unfortunately, many low and middle inome families have not been able to extract, build wealth, or even sell the property since they can't even determine or resolve the ownership given the absence of clear titles. Are you familiar with heirs property, secretary?
▶ 2:34:10Heirs property.
▶ 2:34:11Yes, ma'am.
▶ 2:34:12So, that is what I want to talk about. You being from Texas, Texas is one of the states that has a lot of undocumented heirs properties on the book. Georgia, so many states throughout the South. Unfortunately, many families don't know which heirs may have an interest in the property that is being passed down. Land or homes and families are often passed down without a will, leaving unclear ownership.
▶ 2:34:35That's heirs Without clear titles, families face legal challenges, displacement, or loss of property, and ultimately a loss of generational wealth and underserved families. Fanny May studied property and estimated more than $ 32 billion with a B, Mr. secretary worth of property in 44 states and Washington DC has been impacted by airship issues. And my home state alone, Georgia has more than $48 million in heirs property.
▶ 2:35:02Without wills and estate planning, it is next to impossible to secure wealth from generation to generation. Secretary Turner, understanding that these tangled titles can be extremely complicated to sort out, what steps has HUD taken under your leadership to protect home ownership and the realization of wealth building for families that owns
▶ 2:35:21Yes, ma'am. Thank you. I believe that, you know, as I said before, you know, achieving the dream of of home ownership uh is a great priority of ours. um do you the strategies and ideas that you have as it pertains to heir's property? We're happy to work with you and your team uh to hear uh what you're proposing and what you want to do. Uh but I do believe that protecting property is of utmost importance. Uh so I'm in in lock step with you with that.
▶ 2:35:45Thank you so much. This is bipartisan legislation that ranking member Waters has been supportive of me getting through and Sherman Hill as well. We're looking forward to getting this marked up and across the finish line. But now I want to turn to something where people don't actually own their homes. And this is the living conditions of constituents that people in public housing in Atlanta are facing today. And particularly a story that has been in the news a lot, Forest Cove community. Are you familiar with the Forest Cove property in
▶ 2:36:12No, ma'am. It is one that there's actually a lawsuit right now against HUD and against the um against the landlords and the owners of this property because residents were forced to live in unsafe conditions. The city of Atlanta worked with the residents to get them moved out into housing that was acceptable. They faced holes in their floors and walls, unrepaired fire damage, rats, and other pests before the apartments were ultimately condemned and eventually torn down.
▶ 2:36:42And I understand that HUD has issued an official debarment order to Millennia CEO and Millennia Housing prohibiting them from participating in any new business with HUD, his office of multifamily housing programs, including the section 8 program um for 5 years ending on December 13th, 2028, but it does not affect Melennia's existing properties and contracts with HUD.
▶ 2:37:04And that seems unacceptable unacceptable to me when I see children, seniors living in these conditions in Atlanta, Georgia, that they just need some extra assistance and they're counting on us to hold these bad actors accountable. So, we need to do something about this and it needs to happen now because people are suffering now. Mr. Secretary, how can you help with this?
▶ 2:37:27Yes, ma'am. and Congressman uh Williams, please um allow us to work with your team so we get the more information on this Millennia. Uh I am familiar with them, but get more information on this property you're telling us about because people do need to be held accountable according to the living conditions that people are in.
▶ 2:37:44So Millennia has properties all over the country, not just in Atlanta. And again, there are existing contracts not impacted. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, I will follow up because this is too important for the people that are living in these conditions.
▶ 2:37:58The gentle chair recognizes the gentleman from Minnesota, the majority whip of the house, Mr. Emmer. Mr. Emmer, you're recognized for 5 minutes.
▶ 2:38:06Uh, thank you, Chairman Hill, and thanks for uh holding this critically important hearing today. Secretary Turner, it's great to see you again.
▶ 2:38:13Yes, sir.
▶ 2:38:14Housing affordability is one of the most pressing challenges facing Minnesota families across urban, suburban, and rural communities. Families are being squeezed by rising home prices, and a housing supply that simply is not kept pace with demand. Outdated, burdensome federal regulations, slow permitting processes, rigid zoning laws, and financing barriers are all factors that make it more difficult and expensive to meet America's housing needs.
▶ 2:38:40President Trump has made affordability a central focus of his presidency, reversing the failed policies of the Biden administration and cutting red tape that was only increasing costs and fueling runaway inflation. By updating outdated programs and removing regulatory roadblocks rather than relying solely on direct federal spending, we will allow this country to meet its housing demands and make housing affordable again for hardworking Americans. Mr.
▶ 2:39:06Secretary HUD has a responsibility not only to expand access to housing, but also to ensure that taxpayer dollars are properly safeguarded. My home state of Minnesota has become a national example of the chaos that occurs when oversight collapses and incompetence surges in a governor's mansion. Following the uncovering of a massive 9 billion dollar welfare fraud scheme that went unressed under Governor Tim Walls's watch, you, Mr.
▶ 2:39:33Secretary proactively deployed HUD investigators to Minnesota to provide much needed fiscal oversight. And on behalf of law-abiding taxpaying motans, I want to thank you for taking decisive action where our governor has failed. It's been reported that HUD paid out nearly 85 million in fraudulent federal housing assistant payments to Minnesota during the last year of former President Biden's presidency. Is that correct, Secretary Turner?
▶ 2:40:01Yes, sir. Those are the findings.
▶ 2:40:03And it's my understanding that of this total, half a million dollars was paid out to dead Minnesota residents while another quarter of a million dollars went to individuals whose social security numbers couldn't be verified. Is that correct?
▶ 2:40:16Yes, sir.
▶ 2:40:17And when we say that individuals whose social security numbers could not be verified, Mr. Secretary, what exactly do you mean? Well, when you think about there may be numbers missing, there be may be smudges uh on the number. Often times that means that they are here
▶ 2:40:34All right? So, likely they they're illegal aliens that have taken advantage of the system. In other words, as American families struggled to afford housing and keep up with everyday costs, the federal government was providing assistance to those here illegally, taking resources away from the citizens that these uh programs are actually created to help.
▶ 2:40:57Uh it's abundantly clear to me that those who lined their pockets by defrauding the American people along with those who did nothing to stop it must be held accountable. How can HUD hold these individuals feet to the fire and potentially recoup these fraudulent
▶ 2:41:12Yes, sir. Thank you. As we go through this uh analysis, continued analysis and investigation, we will use the full extent of the law uh to enforce the law and to uh bring the proper and appropriate punishment to those who have defrauded the American people.
▶ 2:41:28What additional authorities, Mr. Secretary, does HUD have to examine other areas where Governor Walls and Minnesota's Attorney General Keith Ellison have been negligent in their stewardship of the people of Minnesota?
▶ 2:41:40Yes, sir. We will continue uh to investigate. We have actually boots on the ground now, as you know, in Minnesota. Minnesota receives about $150 million uh in housing assistance. So, we want to make sure that those funds are being used appropriately. Uh and we also have partnerships across uh the entire federal government and in particular agencies uh that we can utilize to make sure people are being held accountable.
▶ 2:42:02This is uh the new fair housing investigation that you're you're engaged
▶ 2:42:09Yes, sir. And we do have a task force uh to do so.
▶ 2:42:12I I see my time is uh coming to an end. So, I'd like to quickly highlight the Securing Facilities for Mental Health Services Act, which I partnered with Representative Torres to reintroduce last week. We have a mental health crisis in this country. All while h while while having a shortage of care facilities. Under current law, inpatient psychiatric hospitals are prohibited from accessing mortgage assistance through HUD's section 242 program since they treat patients over an extended period of time.
▶ 2:42:42Our securing facilities for mental health services act reverses this prohibition alleviating the imp inpatient bed shortage across the country and encourages the expansion of psychiatric inpatient hospitals. Mr. Secretary, can I get your assurance that we'll work together on this muchneeded legislation so we can ensure that Americans with mental health challenges are able to receive the treatment they deserve and need?
▶ 2:43:05Yes, sir. Happy to work with you. Gentleman's time is expired. Chair recognizes [snorts] the gentleman from California, Mr. Licardo, you recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:43:14Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, Secretary Turner, thank you for your testimony. And as I've heard from your testimony so far, you strongly agree with the notion that, uh, the key to tackling our housing affordability crisis, one that tens of millions of families struggle with every day to pay rent, uh, is is really boosting supply. Uh I think you cited a number estimate between four and seven million homes. Is that right?
▶ 2:43:41Yes sir.
▶ 2:43:43As we look at other places throughout the the country and even outside this country that have found creative ways to boost supply. Look at cities like Vancouver where we've seen a third of the single family uh parcels now have backyard homes or ADUs accessory dwelling units.
▶ 2:44:01Um, we we in in the city of San Jose, where I was mayor, attempted to tackle this one aspect of this challenge by helping more homeowners become home providers, uh, by streamlining the permitting process, uh, working with some uh, folks in the private sector who were building pre-fabricated modular units, enabling homeowners to get a permit in a day by going online. Uh, and we found a dramatic expansion of interest from homeowners.
▶ 2:44:30We went from about 15 permits a year that were issued for those kinds of accessory dwelling units, backyard homes, uh to more than 800 within just a couple of years. Uh do you agree that this might be a useful focus area for us as we're trying to expand housing supply in various ways?
▶ 2:44:47Yes, sir. And we have had uh many conversations about the ADUs uh from a HUD standpoint and and providing flexibility with that. I think we uh like that if the ADUs are attached uh and not detached and that they're not too prescriptive uh that we can support this. But happy to to hear from you and your team and I know our team has been talking about this in our housing
▶ 2:45:09I appreciate that and that interest. Um what we found in the city of San Jose was that although we were seeing a huge increase in the number of permits uh that homeowners were getting uh we would go back after a couple years to figure out if the units were actually getting built and maybe only and this is anecdotal roughly half the folks that we were surveying were saying were they actually getting units built because they couldn't get financing. A lot of modest income homeowners couldn't get um a a bank to lend to them. Uh they couldn't get a second.
▶ 2:45:38And so uh we have been exploring options around that and I introduced the bill HR4568 supply act. Uh and I I would love to engage with your team on that and know I know we've reached out. Uh the concern of course is how we can without any cost to the taxpayers uh be able to enable FHA insured second uh loans to be able to expand opportunities for homeowners to become home providers.
▶ 2:46:07Is that something that uh your team would be willing to work with us on?
▶ 2:46:10Yes, sir. We're happy to look at that. As you said, u anytime, you know, our number one deal is to make sure the FHA is secure, make sure it's solvent, make sure we're not disrupting the housing market, as you know. Uh but happy to explore these ideas with you and your team, sir.
▶ 2:46:24I appreciate that concern. You know, I understand that in December of last last year, uh the they looked at the um the FHA's insurance fund cap ratio, which I understand is legally required to be 2%. Uh it's now uh nearly 11 a.5%. So, um that insurance fund is in pretty good shape. Is that fair to say?
▶ 2:46:50It is.
▶ 2:46:51Okay, that's that's good news. So I think there's opportunity for us to look at uh these kinds of uh innovative approaches. I last area I just wanted to explore. I appreciate uh that the new markets tax credit is now permanent. Uh I think that was important and uh one of the few things in HR1 that I supported.
▶ 2:47:10Uh and I I appreciate the intention and efforts of uh the opportunity zones uh development and ultimately jobs and opportunities in many low-income communities. But as you know, many downtowns in large cities throughout the country uh actually don't qualify. they don't have the census tracks within those downtowns to be able to to be able to use new market tax credits or opportunity zones,
▶ 2:47:37And uh given the very high rate of office vacancy we have right now, more than 19% throughout the country, uh do you agree that there might need to be opportunities for us to find ways to convert some of that vacant office space to housing even outside of those opportunity zones? you know, opportunity zones, as you said, have been very impactful uh in our country as it pertains to uh revitalizing communities and building new housing, creating new jobs.
▶ 2:48:04Uh this idea of turning commercial spots into housing is something that I have heard of, something I have talked about uh with others and I think it's something that we need to explore. Uh I have heard that it's not as many people that utilize commercial to turn them in time to housing, but it doesn't mean that we cannot do it. But happy to talk about that, sir.
▶ 2:48:22I look forward to that. Thank you.
▶ 2:48:24Chair recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Style, who's the chair of our digital assets, financial technology, and AI subcommittee.
▶ 2:48:31Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here. Housing costs are a huge challenge. Uh we've seen the prices go up. There's a a good AEI study that shows we're at effectively 6 million and under supply. And if you look at a supply and demand curve, we know we have to get uh the supply up in the United States to bring down h housing costs. One of the biggest drivers of getting those costs down and increasing supply is the regulatory red tape.
▶ 2:48:58Uh this committee has moved through I think transformative uh legislation in that regard. Um I want to come back to that at the end. Uh but I want to talk about one of the challenges that we've seen in HUD in the previous administration particular uh as relates to Milwaukee in my home state of Wisconsin.
▶ 2:49:16uh is you may well be aware uh the um the housing authority, the city of Milwaukee had misappropriated $2.8 million uh in funds that were supposed to be used uh for rental assistance. Instead, those funds went to a whole host of other things such as salaries um pay in different other types of payments and it put the financial structure of the Milwaukee uh housing authority uh in jeopardy.
▶ 2:49:45I know you uh as you've come in as secretary been engaged in this working on corrective actions. Uh is there any update or status that you can provide us as we're working to make sure that that's fixed?
▶ 2:49:56Uh yes sir. I know that our team has uh been working on this and sure been working with your team. Uh I'm happy to get you that updated uh real-time data uh as soon as we get done here. Sir,
▶ 2:50:06I think I think that would be helpful. I think it's really important that we work to root out waste, fraud, and abuse. HUD, as you know, uh is an absolutely essential agency. We want it to work for those it was designed for, but not to be misappropriating those funds. So, I appreciate that and I look forward to that report. Um, another comment before I I try to close out on the the regulation side. Um, the Native American Housing Assistance and uh act is up for reauthorization.
▶ 2:50:36That is a really big deal to Native American communities in my home state of Wisconsin. and it's important to Native American communities across the United States. Uh are you committed to working with us in uh reauthorizing that program and making needed reforms to it?
▶ 2:50:50Yes, sir. You know, I have been in great support of our tribes across the country. Uh I've traveled to many uh in the first Trump administration and this administration. Uh so to keep their sovereignty and flexibility through Nahazda uh through our ONAP office. Uh we're happy to work with you and your team. Sir,
▶ 2:51:06I I appreciate your commitment to it and getting to those locations on site as you have done uh before and I know as you've engaged in in your role as secretary is really important. Uh there's some unique aspects uh in our Native American uh housing u legislation uh and getting that first hand understanding is really important. Let me let me close out on the regulatory side which is where I began my remarks. There is a real need to reduce the regulatory red tape.
▶ 2:51:36You've commented on it in your in your testimony. You've commented on earlier today. I just want to give you another minute to talk about what we should be looking at here to make sure that we're forcing those local municipalities in particular state regulations to get themselves in line where we can close the gap on this 6 million under supply. Right.
▶ 2:51:56Um I'll I'll yield to you for your additional comments on that.
▶ 2:52:00No. Yes, sir. I don't have much to add to that. I would say, you know, the more that we have u uh members of this committee uh talking to their constituents, talking to local leadership about removing the regulatory barriers uh to housing affordability, to building housing, the construction of housing, development of communities, uh and restoring that back to them. The more we can talk to them and encourage them and guide them, uh through that, the better.
▶ 2:52:27And I believe as a regulatory environment comes down, the supply will go up and costs will come down so that more Americans can actually purchase a home.
▶ 2:52:34Getting that supply up is absolutely critical. In our final minute, um you have a lot of background in opportunity
▶ 2:52:40Um and as we look at that legislation, how is HUD prioritizing its work uh with opportunity zones to provide better outcomes to communities?
▶ 2:52:48Thank you. Well, you know, during the first Trump administration, HUD led an opportunity zone initiative. uh working across uh 15 domestic agencies was a very impactful and transformative policy. So, we're looking forward to opportunity zones being made permanent uh starting in January 2027. Next year or this year actually the summer this year, governors will begin to pick out uh opportunity zone census tracks. And so, I hope they're very thoughtful and working with local uh experts, leaders uh to make sure that the zones we pick will impact the communities.
▶ 2:53:18Uh Secretary Turner, thanks for your work. Uh this is a huge huge area of concern for Americans. I appreciate your your service. Mr. Chairman, I yield
▶ 2:53:27Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes the gentleman from Louisiana. Mr. Fields, you're recognized four or five
▶ 2:53:34Uh let me first thank the chair and the ranking member for holding us here. And let me thank you also, Mr. Secretary, for being here. Since taking office, you have terminated um hundreds of HUD employees and announced plans to close uh field offices in 34 states, including uh the District of Columbia. Uh this includes also uh a New Orleans field office in my home state of Louisiana.
▶ 2:54:02Uh the Housing and Community Development Act of 1987 requires that HUD maintain uh at least one field office in each state. Uh Mr. Secretary, my question is did did HUD uh publish a cost benefit analysis uh before announcing these closures as required by law? Um if so, tell me about it. If not, why not?
▶ 2:54:29Uh yes, sir. that field office uh is still open uh as we speak and we uh want to utilize our field offices to serve the people around our country. Uh and as far as you know, I've heard about these slashes and cuts to HUD's employees. Uh and I've said it repeatedly uh that we've had about 2400 people that have voluntarily taken a DRP. Uh we're very focused on our field offices and serving our constituents in all 10 regions around the country as it pertains to HUD sir.
▶ 2:54:58Did you according to law you had to do a cost uh costbenefit analysis. Did you did you do a costbenefit analysis?
▶ 2:55:06Yes sir. We have been uh following the law extensively. As I said that field office and others are still open uh to serve the people of that district.
▶ 2:55:14And if and if you may can you provide uh the chair and and me a copy of that uh costbenefit analysis. Yes sir. Appreciate it. also uh HUD field offices provides um face-toface to grantees as you know I mean face-toface contact and they also are responsible for enforcing federal statutes so it's so important uh that we have these field offices my next question is on March 3rd 2025 uh ranking me member uh Waters
▶ 2:55:45myself and 122 house Democrats sent you a letter demanding transparency and about wrongful termination of staff uh fund freezing indulge involvement in HUD. Uh that letter to my knowledge received no response. Why not?
▶ 2:56:05Congressman Fields, we will make sure uh that there was a response to that letter, sir. Uh and we'll work with our team to get that to you if it has not if you have not received that.
▶ 2:56:15Yeah. And also on March 17, 2025, we sent another letter uh signed by um 106 members of Congress about fair the fair housing enforcement. Um it took 10 months actually you responded last Friday um right before uh this hearing. Do you think that HUD you know is beyond
▶ 2:56:43No sir. I don't believe that any agency is beyond oversight. those letters that uh we sent to you as members of Congress, uh many of the members sit on this committee.
▶ 2:56:58Um, can you make sure that we have a response that you respond to the ranking member of those uh to those letters that we sent uh to you to um ask you very pertinently questions about uh about cuts. Uh if you can get us a response to those letters as soon as possible, I would appreciate it. This time, Mr. Chairman, I I yield the remaining time to the ranking member.
▶ 2:57:32Thank you very much um Mr. Fields for your probe and questions uh to Secretary Turner here today. Uh Secretary Turner, I want to go back to uh the new move that you're making and ask you a few questions. What is the cost? What is the total cost of that move? Ma'am, what I can tell you is that it's going to save the American taxpayers uh hundreds of millions.
▶ 2:57:59No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't tell me how much it's going to save. I want to know what is the cost of the move. Uh the reason I'm asking is because of the tremendous cuts that you're making where consumers are going to basically suffer. I want to know what is the total cost of the move.
▶ 2:58:18Ma'am, our move will save the American tax. didn't ask you what you was going to say reclaiming my time. I want to know what is the cost of the total move.
▶ 2:58:29We'll get the exact number to you, ma'am. But it pales in comparison amount of money that either you know it or you don't or you don't want to tell me.
▶ 2:58:36Gentleman's time has expired. Mr. Field's time is expired. He yields back. The chair recognizes the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Stzman. You're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:58:46Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being here. I apologize for my voice. I was yelling a little too much at the national championship game the other day and I know our team put a thump in on your elma mater, but I'm sure you were rooting for the big 10 as well, sir. But anyway, great to have you. Um, if you want [clears throat] to respond, you feel free to do so anytime.
▶ 2:59:08It's all right.
▶ 2:59:09Um, but anyway, uh, goyouu. Uh, in Carmel, nearly one in four single family rentals. I'm sorry, let me back up. um missed my my opening remarks here, but last night, President Trump unveiled a much anticipated executive order aimed at leveling the playing field for American home buyers.
▶ 2:59:27Uh the executive order reflects concerns that I hear from my constituents who are worried that large corporations are negatively affecting their ability to buy a home through their participation in single family rental market, single family market. Uh, in fact, a 2024 GAO report found that institutional investors of varying sizes make up a large portion of the single family rental market in many cities across the country, including some in my home state of Indiana.
▶ 2:59:54In Carmel, Indiana, nearly one in four single family rentals is owned by a large corporate investor. As a result, the city recently passed an ordinance aimed at prioritizing single family homes for owner occupants, demonstrating that this issue is being felt on the ground in our local communities. I believe that President Trump's willingness to confront these realities sends a clear message that this administration stands with home buyers and communities first.
▶ 3:00:20I know this is just an hour a couple hours old uh executive order, but I'd be curious what your thoughts are and can you share with us a little bit how HUD plans to implement the executive order?
▶ 3:00:31Yes, sir. As you said, it is hours old. We will be working with our federal partners at the Treasury, FHFA. Uh according to the uh president's executive order, we do have 30 days uh to work together and get uh back again with the president. Uh but the intentions are very clear that we want to make sure that American uh people are able to buy homes. Uh homes are for the American people and obviously said as a president said not corporations uh and so we are fully on board uh and working with the president and across federal agencies.
▶ 3:01:01So make sure uh that the American people can buy uh homes for
▶ 3:01:06Perfect. Thank you. I want to shift the focus a little bit to some of the the good work that this committee is doing uh addressing housing affordability. All HUD assisted housing projects require envir environmental reviews before they can move forward. For rural projects that also utilize USDA assistance, developers must currently undergo two separate environmental reviews. This duplicative process creates additional cost for developers.
▶ 3:01:34It prolongs the construction and it deters much needed investment uh in affordable rural housing. I introduced the streamlining rural housing act along with Ms. Mlan, Miss Peterson, and Mr. Scott. It's a bipartisan bill and the bill would require HUD and USDA to develop a joint environmental review and inspection process for rural housing projects, cutting red tape and making affordable rural housing easier to build.
▶ 3:02:01Would you agree that Congress needs to modernize and streamline these reviews so developers can build faster and get more Americans into homes? Cutting red tape is what we're trying to accomplish here.
▶ 3:02:12Yes, sir. I believe that the streamline and the modernization, as you said, will help not only get into a home and get into a home faster and cheaper. Uh we have a great working relationship with USDA, uh as you know, and so I'm grateful that you all are working on that uh to help the American people.
▶ 3:02:28Great. also um an important part of this committee's housing for the 21st century act. I know that you and President Trump are working to make the dream of owning a home more attainable for Americans. Um in the 21st century act, it will serve as the cornerstone of those efforts and yet can be another win for the American people as well as for President Trump and Republicans and be a win for all of us.
▶ 3:02:50How important is it that we um enact common sense solutions that will make it easier to build homes in this country and really provide affordable housing for the American people?
▶ 3:03:01Yes, sir. I think it's extremely important uh to enact common sense strategies and legislation to help the American people. I'm on board with that.
▶ 3:03:12I appreciate the hard work that you're doing. I also appreciate you personally, your family, your your faith and your outspokenness, really fighting for the American people. Yes, sir.
▶ 3:03:22And can't think of a better person uh spokesperson to address what is the American dream, and that is to own a home. And what I see, you know, is Washington continues to pile on more and more and making it difficult not only just to build a home, but to buy a home. And and I appreciate your leadership on this and anything that I can do would always be happy to support you to do that. Thank you, sir.
▶ 3:03:44Gentleman yields back. The chair recognizes the gentleoman from Colorado. Miss Pitter, you're recognized for five
▶ 3:03:50Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Secretary Turner, for being with us today. It's such a critical conversation. Housing is the number one pain point for Coloradoatans and people across the country. I So, while we are talking about housing, I I want to focus on one thing that really stood out for me with your testimony today.
▶ 3:04:10I appreciate you talking about your personal experience with a family member who has struggled with addiction and you have seen firsthand the devastating impacts that this disease can bring.
▶ 3:04:22And like you and millions of Americans, my family has also been impacted. My mom struggled with an opioid addiction for decades and these experiences have informed my perspective on the support that people need to live in recovery. And this morning you said that your family supported your homeless uncle while getting him services. And it sounds like your family used the housing first model. Why are you opposed to the housing first model for everyone else?
▶ 3:04:49Actually uh we didn't just house him. We did get him wraparound services uh from the VA and other places, faith-based organizations. Housing first is exactly that. It focuses on just housing people. But that has been a failed policy as it pertains to homelessness. And so what I'm proposing and what we think is it needs to be a paradigm shift not just to house people but to really put the ash to the root of why people are homeless.
▶ 3:05:15Talk about drug addiction or any other type of addiction, alcoholism, mental illness, and to treat these to get them transformed and then to get them back to a life of self- sustainability. So not just housing first but to house them and then wraparound services to get them fully healed and then get people back in that actually need to help. And so I believe that the housing first model is a failed model. It has a reduced home has to be a paradigm shift.
▶ 3:05:43So so you your uncle was lucky enough to have people in his life that were able to bring him in. What options should people have when they're struggling with addiction and they don't have anyone to turn to?
▶ 3:05:57Well, I believe that this idea that we're proposing will help people such as
▶ 3:06:01All right, I'm going to I'm reclaiming my time.
▶ 3:06:04I So, I've seen how critical access to housing is for some of the most vulnerable populations. My mom was on the wait list for years. She finally got the notification that she was one of the lucky ones. She finally had a voucher that was going to follow her. She had a safe place to go. She was able to leave her abusive and unsafe situation and have a home.
▶ 3:06:27And while unfortunately my mom didn't have access to the critical care that she needed, I can guarantee you that my mom would not be alive today if she didn't have access to housing. So something that I'm very concerned about is the continuum of continuum of care program. I've heard from people on the ground in Colorado about the 2,200 people that are at risk of losing housing right now because you all have upended this program.
▶ 3:06:53I right now it is being held up in the courts and it's the only thing protecting these seniors who have experienced long-term homelessness, sexual and domestic abuse survivors, single parents trying to put a roof over their families heads, and also people who are struggling with addiction. The qualifications are changing. They don't know exactly what this is going to look like and people are deeply concerned about what's going to happen to these individuals. What analysis did your agency conduct to understand the impact of the disruption on these vulnerable
▶ 3:07:24So, Congressman Peters, I think you alluded to it. It's uh the litigation is holding up. 22 states are holding up the movement of our continuum of care. We were ready right when the shutdown came out. We announced it. Uh but because of litigation, it is delaying the process. And so I think you'll speak to exactly what the problem is.
▶ 3:07:41Turner, I'm sorry I have to reclaim my time because it's running out and I'd love to have a written copy on what analysis you did for the impact. And I want to take you back to Colorado and the experience that we had. I saw firsthand fighting to save my mom's life who struggled with addiction with nowhere to go and finding out that Medicaid didn't cover access to treatment. I it is a medical condition that absolutely needs medical attention. So we applied for a waiver.
▶ 3:08:08I directed the state to apply for a waiver and we took years to implement and oversee this waiver. It has saved countless lives. 34 other states followed suit. So I we have built capacity across the nation to help support those who are struggling with addiction. Unfortunately under this administration with the OBB, they took away the ability for states to utilize this waiver. 15,000 people in Colorado the first year had access to treatment because of this.
▶ 3:08:35So when you talk about increasing access to treatment and giving people the help they need, it couldn't be further from the truth and what what is happening under this administration. Are you aware about taking away this waiver and also just last week unlawfully threatening to withhold $2 billion from SAM SAMA
▶ 3:08:53If you would answer that question in writing, Mr. Secretary, the gentleman's time has expired. Chair recognizes the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. from Muser who's the chair of our oversight and investigation
▶ 3:09:06Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Secretary Turner, [clears throat] great to see you. Yes, sir.
▶ 3:09:09Appreciate all your great work, your continued great work. You mentioned earlier that the HUD doesn't have a money problem. It [snorts] has had a management problem. So, I appreciate that very much, particularly [clears throat] since 2019, the budget was 54 billion with 700 with 7,400 employees. in 2024 uh was $72 billion with 9600 employees.
▶ 3:09:33By the way, the Biden administration during the 4-year period hired 275,000 new new uh federal employees. Uh so yours yours went up proportionally about what other agencies did.
▶ 3:09:46Uh yet on the budget side of things for 2026, you've got a budget of 76.5 billion, $4.5 billion than before where my understanding is um all of it basically is going to the tenantbased rental assistance program which sounds like it's needed, but I'm sure you're going to manage through that.
▶ 3:10:07Is is that because of the high influx of of of illegals that illegal immigrants have come in or why $4.5 billion or $6 billion more for for that just from the huge increases that occurred during the Biden administration?
▶ 3:10:20Well, yes sir. There was uh there were no accountability and no transparency and you alluded to during uh the Biden administration actually during co there were 2,000 additional people that were hired at HUD. Uh but the results were uh abysmal. The work was not being done. We were still serving only one out of every four people. When we came in, we gave the people the option, the voluntary option to take the DRP. 2400 did. But we have not missed a beat as far as fulfilling our statutory requirements and serving the people of our country.
▶ 3:10:48But yes, when you have millions of illegals that are coming across our border, it does strain our housing supply. It does take up uh housing that is supposed to be for the American people. So yes, sir. Uh this is part of the problem.
▶ 3:10:59Okay. And fraud, waste, and abuse. I mean, when you when you increase from 54 billion over a few year period to 72 billion has occurred in the Biden administration. Fraud, waste, and abuse. Secretary Bent estimated to be about 10% across all agencies. You've already identified, I believe, $6 billion dollars of of fraud, waste, and abuse.
▶ 3:11:19Yeah, there was a a lack of stewardship, if you will, a lack of management uh and financial controls during the Biden administration. Uh I believe that we need to be good stewards over taxpayer [clears throat] dollars with almost a $80 billion budget uh and serving uh the people of America. We have to utilize and maximize this budget in the appropriate way uh to serve those we're called to serve. And that was not happening uh during the Biden administration.
▶ 3:11:43But rest assured since I've come in and our team has come in, we're laser focused on uh using the resources of taxpayer money to serve the people of HUD as it pertains to housing, homelessness, and disaster recovery.
▶ 3:11:54Thank you. and PHAS. Uh, is that where some of the fraud, waste, and abuse?
▶ 3:11:58Yes, sir. There's a lot of waste and fraud and abuse in PHAS, but we've also put PHAS across our country on notice. Uh, telling them, hey, listen, we're not going to turn a blind eye. Uh, you will be held accountable about who lives uh, in these HUD funed properties, the living conditions, uh, the crime. I said before we introduce a crime hotline uh, for people not to be afraid to uh, tell us about what's going on in PHAS. That's nefarious activity because public housing should be safe housing and should be accountable.
▶ 3:12:26Outstanding. Thank you. Uh the housing 21st century act uh written by our colleague Mike Flood and and our chairman uh calls for increased um of HUD contracts uh and to publish all contracts and sure money goes where it says it's going. Is that a bill that you're uh And by the way, it also calls for requires you to testify once a year, so you have that to look forward to.
▶ 3:12:54Yeah, I don't. Okay. I'm happy to see y'all.
▶ 3:12:58All right. Great. Also, just lastly, as I wrap up, veteran housing, um I'm doing some work with Tunnel to Towers that creates a program to maximize the use of the HUD VASH vouchers so jurisdictions with too many vouchers can send them to others in need. Um, can you just speak a little bit about how you're strengthening veteran housing?
▶ 3:13:18Yes, sir. You know, this is a top priority for us uh at HUD, our VASH program working with the VA, Secretary Collins, uh I have uh met and and seen many uh veterans across our country, both from the tribal nations and uh not and so veteran housing is very important to us and we want to make sure we continue to strengthen veteran housing to take care of the men and women uh that served our country.
▶ 3:13:40Well, thank you. We're very happy you're in your position. appreciate you very much. And chairman, I yield back.
▶ 3:13:45Yes, sir. Thank you.
▶ 3:13:46Gentleman yields back. The chair recognizes the gentleoman from Oregon, Miss Binham. You're recognized for five
▶ 3:13:52Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you, Secretary Turner.
▶ 3:13:55Yes, ma'am.
▶ 3:13:56For appearing before our committee today and for your testimony. And thank you to Chairman Hill and Ranking Member Waters for convening this important meeting. One of the issues that I hear about from my constituents in Oregon time and time again, regardless of their background and their politics, is the crushing cost of housing. I'm sure everybody has said that today.
▶ 3:14:18And I believe our federal government must make significant strides to address this crisis. So, I'm proud to be on this committee and I think we have an obligation to advance good policy that lowers the cost of buying a home and decreases rents for folks across the country. So with that in mind, um first I wanted to address with you the critical issue of housing affordability on Indian reservations and in tribal communities.
▶ 3:14:44Uh my home state of Oregon is home to nine federally recognized tribes that all receive federal dollars under the Indian housing block grant program. And as you know, Nahazda, under which the IHBG program is administered, was last reauthorized in 2008. and the program expired in 2013.
▶ 3:15:07So since its initial passage, the program has been a vital investment in safe and affordable housing for native families across the country. In Oregon, where several tribes were stripped of their rights as federally recognized tribes under the f federal government's termination policy, this resulted in them losing their lands and critical funding.
▶ 3:15:28Nhazda has enabled those tribes to reassert their sovereignty and provide affordable housing, maintenance, and counseling in their communities. So, I was pleased to hear the commitment that you made to Congressman Downing earlier in this hearing to reauthorize and update Nahazda, and I look forward to working with you and the congressman on this program. So, I want to switch gears now and move you to the broader market and and housing affordability challenges.
▶ 3:15:58You've spoken briefly about slashing bureaucracy. Yay. As a clear cure all, but in my district, the math doesn't always add up. And so, even with zero red tape, our residential construction industry faces a labor shortage and the cost of materials remains at a record high. Now, this is where I come in as a mom. Um, it it poses a particular challenge for our young people.
▶ 3:16:26You may know that nearly onethird, which is about 32 and a.5% of young adults aged 18 to 34 live in their parents' homes. I don't know if you have kids, but I have four of them, 24, 21, 17, 15. And I tell them, A, I want to transition them off the payroll, and B, I want you to live down the street, not downstairs. That's what we're working on,
▶ 3:16:51right? So, you know, I've I've spoken in the committee before about that, but I want to know what specific HUD resources are being to deployed that new supply that comes online isn't just luxury development, but they're homes that our young people can actually afford to buy and live in.
▶ 3:17:09Yes, ma'am. And thank you, Congressman Binham. And I agree the quicker you can get them off the payroll the better.
▶ 3:17:14Uh and we are very focused on this because I too hear from young people about uh housing affordability. And to me it's an overall picture of getting our fiscal house in order bringing interest rates down uh mortgage rates down uh and access to capital.
▶ 3:17:33And with these things, I think across generations, if we can bring the affordability down, which we're working on, and bring the supply up, then people in America will be able to afford to buy a home and rents uh will be adequate to people that can rent. Uh but I also will talk about opportunity zones because I believe in opportunity zones. It gives us an asset.
▶ 3:17:55It gives us a means to build affordable housing across our country of of all types, multif family or single family, if you will, prioritize a really single family because that's the greatest way uh to start creating wealth in our country. And so I too share the same sentiment uh and know that we're fully focused on work and housing affordability uh not just uh by top, but really by execution and action. And you can see not only just from the president, but other agencies and leaders uh that we're taking bold steps to make sure this happens. Thank you.
▶ 3:18:25Um, so building on that, you said that states and local governments should have skin in the game. You've said that before. Um, and when it comes to housing affordability, I would say during my time in the state legislature, Oregon authorized over 350 million to build more housing. So, if states like mine continue to step up, would you be open to committing that HUD recognize those state and local efforts when where housing is most needed and use your resources to amplify those methods?
▶ 3:18:52Yes, I I like to tell stories about people that are doing it the right
▶ 3:18:56Gentlewoman's time is expired. Chair now recognizes the gentleoman from California, Miss Kim. You're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 3:19:04Thank you, Chairman Hill and Ranking Member Waters for hosting today's hearing. And Secretary Turner, thank you for being here. It's good to see you
▶ 3:19:12Nice to see you, ma'am.
▶ 3:19:12Thank you. You know, in California, where I'm from, we're facing affordability crisis, especially in housing. Not only have we received F-rating in housing affordability, but only 17% of Californians can afford to purchase a mediumpriced family home.
▶ 3:19:32This is simply unacceptable, which is why I've been working hard in Congress to enact policies that will undo the damaging work that our governor has done. Um, so as a chair of uh, you know, co-chair of the salt caucus, I was able to deliver four times increase in salt deduction to help address housing affordability. And I hope uh, this brings some relief for Californians.
▶ 3:19:58And I've also been championing the use of modern credit scoring models in housing. As you know, these models often include rental and utility payment data, all of which will help more Americans achieve their dream of home ownership.
▶ 3:20:15You know, Secretary Turner, as FHFA finalizes the implementation of President Trump's credit score competition act, I hope that you will ensure that FHA underwriting keeps pace so that more working families can purchase homes and we can lift that 17% number in California. You don't have to respond because I know you're in agreement with this.
▶ 3:20:40So, [clears throat] let me just uh shift some topics now and focus on the potential changes to the claims without conveyance of title program that would allow mortgage service uh servicesers to use auction providers that they own or control when a loan goes to foreclosure.
▶ 3:21:01Secretary Turner, is it not a strong possibility that a mortgage serer will simply steer all the auction business to their own auction platform regardless of
▶ 3:21:15Yes, I think that bringing competition uh to this is a great idea. Uh, one, you know, competition brings out the best in everyone. Competition also uh there's accountability in competition. And so, uh, I'm familiar obviously with what you're speaking of. And so, I think, uh, working with our housing, uh, office to bring more, uh, competition to the table is is a healthy thing.
▶ 3:21:36You know, I just wanted to ask you when you were deciding to make these changes, um, did HUD do any analyses or studies that indicated that competition was lacking among independent auction platforms?
▶ 3:21:49Yes, ma'am. I do believe so, and I'll get that uh, report for you. Uh, we'll work with our team and our housing office and make sure.
▶ 3:21:55Thank you. as you continue that comment period and evaluate the feedback on that proposal. Of course, I want to see what you have, but I hope that you also consider the possibility that this could potentially lead to more consolidation with the industry rather than Uh, let me shift gears again. you know, in Orange County, San Bernardino, and Riverside counties that I'm honored to represent.
▶ 3:22:19We are lucky to have great community partners who have stewarded the continuum of care funding to help thousands of my constituents. But as you know, the uh there is a shift from two-year funding cycle to one-year funding cycle. So, I'm concerned that these funds will not reach the communities that need them in a timely fashion. So can you explain why this decision was made to shift from two to one year period?
▶ 3:22:46Uh yes ma'am and it's it's a u a resultsoriented decision as I study the continuum of care of old uh with record funding going towards the continuum of care um legislation or we feel the the no the competitive no uh I don't believe that we were serving the uh homeless neighbors that we should have been serving and treating them and getting them to self sustainability like we should have and so uh to use a football term you know we were running the same
▶ 3:23:17plays over and over again, but they were not bringing the the best results for the American people. And so through our analysis and through our study, uh the one-year uh deal that you mentioned and also uh the way uh that these uh funds are allocated not just to housing but to treat people uh as an overarching uh theme that we have.
▶ 3:23:34So, I just want to ask you if um as you go through this changes, if you can uh give the previous two-year grant recipients priority during any new notice of funding opportunity because it is really important to recognize that there are great partners that have done a great job. They know their community and the people they are serving the best.
▶ 3:23:56Yes, ma'am. and those that are bringing uh the results uh that are actually helping the homeless uh neighbors that we have across our country. They will uh we do want to work with them uh in an appropriate manner. Yes, ma'am.
▶ 3:24:06Gentlemen's time is expired.
▶ 3:24:08Chair now recognizes the gentleoman from Michigan. Mr. Lee, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 3:24:21Oh, it's not working. One second. Can I get my time back?
▶ 3:24:33All right. Thank you, sir. Uh, thank you, Secretary, for um
▶ 3:24:38Oh, yeah. I think people know who I am.
▶ 3:24:42Thank you. It's very kind. Um, thank you, Secretary, for being here. And I I um want you to know, of course, you can see there's incredible bipartisan support to do more around housing. Um, are you familiar of who Paul um Acade
▶ 3:24:58Do you know who that is?
▶ 3:24:59No, ma'am.
▶ 3:25:00Uh, do you know who Paul Marhinan is?
▶ 3:25:02Uh, can they both please stand in the back? They're right behind you. Do you know who these employees are?
▶ 3:25:11No. You're not familiar with them, sir?
▶ 3:25:14I've seen them.
▶ 3:25:15You've seen them. Okay, you could take your seat. So, both of them are attorneys that enforce our housing laws, including discrimination. Are you aware that that's their role?
▶ 3:25:27Yes, ma'am.
▶ 3:25:27Okay. Um, I understand that one of them is in on administrative leave and the other one, Mr. Henan, you fired him. Is that correct?
▶ 3:25:38Ma'am, these things are under litigation at HUD and so for I can no further speak on that.
▶ 3:25:44For the record, Mr. Chair, uh, Mr. Acade uh is confirmed that he's on administrative leave by uh the secretaries under his leadership and uh Mr. Paul Henean was fired. I am very confused about how we're enforcing current law. So are you familiar with the whistleblowers protection act?
▶ 3:26:05I am.
▶ 3:26:05Okay. Employees are protected when they reasonably believe they're revealing violation of law. Right. a rule, a regulation, gross mismanagement, gross waste of funds, abuse of authority. Right? So, why did you fire why did you put them on leave and fire them when they were trying to enforce the law?
▶ 3:26:24Congressman, these things are under litigation. So, I'm not uh at
▶ 3:26:27They're protected under the whistleblowers act. Do you at least agree they're protected under the whistleblowers protection act?
▶ 3:26:32Listen, we we uphold the whistleblowers act, but I'm not going to talk about
▶ 3:26:36But but for the record, they are protected. They came to Congress to say, "I was trying to enforce VAVWA, Violence Against Women's Act. I was trying to do my job and they told me to stop." This is what the claim here is. They came to Congress to say, you know, please know that I'm trying to do my job and I'm being told, "No, go home. I'll pay you, but you're not going to enforce fava and you I'm going to fire you." Even though they came before Congress, they should be protected.
▶ 3:27:07Do you at least agree that anybody uh coming to to Congress under the protection of the whistleblowers protection act should be
▶ 3:27:16Well, like I said, we we uphold the whistleblowers act, but I'm not at liberty to speak on these things.
▶ 3:27:21Okay. Well, Mr. Secretary, this is an important one. The American people would like to know. Do you believe housing discrimination is illegal?
▶ 3:27:27All discrimination is illegal.
▶ 3:27:29Good. If laws are not being enforced, would you want an employee under your department to come forward?
▶ 3:27:38What I would want is for us
▶ 3:27:40Oh, that's a simple secretary. Come on. So if your federal employ come before you and say, "Hey, the law right now on housing discrimination, which we're legally allow a perforced to enforce if it's not being followed, would you want them to come to you?"
▶ 3:28:01Of course, I would want our team to know about any discrimination that's going on, but I want
▶ 3:28:05Why did you fire a supervisor who came to you and said, "Hey, when we do this, it's illegal." They they came to you, the supervisor came and said to folks under your leadership, "Hey, uh, we can't ignore a VAWA claim.
▶ 3:28:20I mean, this woman was being stalked and she was being discriminated in accessing housing and there was direction that violated current federal And instead of allowing them to comply or make adjustments, you let them go. As I said before, I'm not going to speak on this uh uh issue as it is under litigation and to the privacy of these two gentlemen and HUD.
▶ 3:28:51I think that's
▶ 3:28:52If you do find out through investigation, through the process and the litigation, will you commit to immediately returning all former fair housing staff that have been reassigned?
▶ 3:29:06Ma'am, that is not a commitment that I'm going to make today. We have to go through the litigation process.
▶ 3:29:10Okay. Will you will you will you at least commit that if someone came forward to say we're not enforcing housing discrimination laws that the Congress passed, will you at least consider rehiring them? It's not just about Mr. Paul Hehan who's really a hero and so is uh Paul Acade Bay.
▶ 3:29:32They know Assad Bay and Henan know that their lives were altered completely because they have become the face of folks that have come forward to speak the truth about the fact that we're not enforcing housing discrimination law under your
▶ 3:29:46Gentlewoman's time is expired. Chair now recognizes the chair of the subcommittee on housing insurance and a principal author of our 21st century housing act, Mr. Flood, to recognize for five minutes.
▶ 3:29:59Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Secretary Turner. Thank you for being here today,
▶ 3:30:03As you know, our committee has worked very hard on the housing for the 21st century act, which would address rising housing costs with reforms that will cut red tape and reduce burdensome federal regulations that slow down projects. I wanted to discuss a few of the regulatory reforms that I think will be especially meaningful within the housing for the 21st century act. So, uh let's start with environmental review and permitting.
▶ 3:30:25Uh section 2011 statutoily exempts uses of the home investment partnership dollars for the following activities from NEPA review. Number one, new construction of infield housing projects. Number two, acquisition of real property. Number three, rehabilitation projects. And then number four, new construction projects of 15 units or less. Here's my question.
▶ 3:30:48Would statutory exemptions for these activities from NEPA review make the home program more efficient and help build more housing?
▶ 3:30:56Uh yes sir, I do believe so. Any duplicative process uh as you know slows down building, makes it more uh less efficient and cost more. Uh so anything that we can do to uh ease that burden uh we are willing to look at and work obviously with you uh as we look at housing affordability. So, the 21st Century Housing Act also exempts small home investment partnership programs uh grantees from section 3 requirements for projects with 50 units or less.
▶ 3:31:24And as a reminder, section three of the Housing and Urban Development Act of 1968 requires recipients of HUD dollars to prioritize hiring lowincome and very lowincome people on projects. Right. While these requirements are well-meaning, they can be very difficult to fulfill in rural areas, especially ones that have workforce challenges to begin with. So, here's my question, Mr. Secretary.
▶ 3:31:47Do you think that tailoring section 3 requirements for smaller jurisdictions could make the home program more efficient and help build more housing?
▶ 3:31:55Yes, sir. And I know we've had conversations with this with people on our team pertaining to section 3 and the home program. uh and we're open to ideas obviously as I've told many of your colleagues here uh to work with you and your team on that.
▶ 3:32:08I'd like to briefly touch on changes to the home ownership side of the home program. Section 2011 of the 21st century housing act would increase the area median income threshold for home ownership eligibility in the home program from 80% to 100% of area median income. Uh Mr. Secretary, do you agree that that is right sizing the statutory requirements and will it make it easier for municipalities to use the home program for home ownership?
▶ 3:32:34Yes, sir.
▶ 3:32:36Okay. So, let's touch on Build America by America. And I do appreciate the gentleman from Montana for raising this in his efforts today. Section 2011 of this act that we've been referencing says that partnership dollars used for housing from the Build America by America Act requirements uh are part of President Biden's infrastructure law.
▶ 3:32:55While supporting manufacturing and US man manufacturing is important, uh through the process, whether it's Habitat for Humanity or the Huntsville Housing Authority, whoever it was across America, we got feedback that the current iteration of Build America by America requirements are delaying and in some cases outright killing affordable housing projects. Mr. Secretary,
▶ 3:33:18do you think easing Build America by America requirements for housing could make the home program more efficient and help build more housing?
▶ 3:33:24Yes, sir. As I told uh a couple of your colleagues uh earlier uh that we are definitely willing to listen uh and to an analyze the the Build America by America program as it pertains to flexibility in particular in our rural areas. Uh so we're happy to work with you and your team on that to see what we can do to ease that burden.
▶ 3:33:46I appreciate that and I would just stress um that especially the Habitat for Humanity folks, they're trying their best to keep the costs down and sometimes those appliances in cases or windows are are very hard to come by. Last question. Secretary Turner, I think there are a lot of things that HUD can do administratively to ease the compliance burdens associated with Build America Buy by America requirements on housing projects.
▶ 3:34:10Would you commit to working with me and my team to ensure Baba compliance doesn't continue to hinder HUD's affordable housing projects?
▶ 3:34:17Yes, sir.
▶ 3:34:18Okay. So, I appreciate, you know, we have a unique opportunity this year in America to have the first meaningful um housing package since 2015 thanks to a Senate that is a willing partner, a House that has done a lot of work in a bipartisan manner, and a president that just today made comments about the importance of housing affordability. I just want us all to take advantage of this time in a bipartisan way and reach a goal. And with that, uh, I appreciate your time, Mr. Secretary.
▶ 3:34:47Thank you for being in front of us and I yield back.
▶ 3:34:50Thank you, Senator.
▶ 3:34:50Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes the gentleman from Illinois. Mr. Castton, you're recognized for five
▶ 3:34:56Thank you, Mr. Hill. Uh, and on behalf of all the people of Illinois, I'd like to apologize to you as a former alumni for your rude treatment on the behalf of the gentleman from Indiana.
▶ 3:35:03Yes, sir. Thank [laughter]
▶ 3:35:08um, weirdly, I actually want to start with with football. You familiar with Poly Market?
▶ 3:35:13With what, sir?
▶ 3:35:14Poly Market. It's a company. They it's a they call themselves a prediction markets platform. It's a gambling platform. The they allow people to bet on measles cases in the US. Outcomes, prop bets on football games, winners of next elections. The NFL has actually raised concerns that this platform, you know, potentially allows players, coaches, people with inside information to, you know, get into the Black Sox scandal again. Take another Illinois
▶ 3:35:39Yeah. It's hurting the integrity of the
▶ 3:35:41Yeah. So, so Poly Market um is now letting people bet on median home prices. And so you've got a situation where realtors, people who have knowledge of the market, could find themselves in an economic situation where they might have a rooting interest. If you're not familiar, I guess I just ask, can you commit to working with us to try to make sure that we're not allowing these platforms to compromise people's access to housing in
▶ 3:36:05Yes, sir. I look forward to having that conversation indeed.
▶ 3:36:08And we'll follow up on that. Um second question um the and this is following on Mr. Lee. You'd commented several times including to the ranking member that um no one was fired at HUD that they all took retirement. We've we've identified a couple people who were fired. There's actually multiple former HUD employees in this room who have been who have been fired who have said that probationary staff interns legal honors were fired. My question is just are those people lying to us or would you like to correct the comments you made to the ranking
▶ 3:36:37No sir. The number that I have, we have 2,400 people that
▶ 3:36:40No, no, no. I'm asking, were people
▶ 3:36:43I did say to your colleagues that I will get the exact number to you if we have people that have been fired,
▶ 3:36:47but you said before that they were
▶ 3:36:49taken the DRP.
▶ 3:36:51The people who are sitting in this room said they were fired.
▶ 3:36:55yeah, we'll get the numbers for you,
▶ 3:36:56Um, I'm not asking for numbers. I'm asking for you to correct the statement, but maybe you don't want to correct your statement. Um, you had mentioned to Miss Peterson that the that the reason for the shortfall in the continuum of care coverage was because of litigation. I want to clarify the 2025 no that you offered because it was you had a deadline in January and the coverage wasn't until May was going to lead to a six-month gap.
▶ 3:37:24There was litigation followed by several states including Illinois that forced you to comply with the 2024 NOA. was it was HUD's decision to shorten that to a one-year NOA with that short time period that would have caused a six-month gap in continuum of care, not the litigation. Correct.
▶ 3:37:38No, sir. There would not have been a gap caused by that. We were on track to get the monies out.
▶ 3:37:43Hang on. The NO required a January 14th, 2026 deadline with an award date of May
▶ 3:37:50At the same time, the 2024 grant started to expire on December 31st. This is a calendar issue, not a legal issue.
▶ 3:37:58Is May after January? Yes sir, we were on track.
▶ 3:38:00Okay, so May is after January.
▶ 3:38:01We were on on track to get the resources out, sir.
▶ 3:38:04Well, let let me just give you some sense of how this matters.
▶ 3:38:08The I got a message from one of our partners who provides housing yesterday who said, "We have people in our permanent housing program who are on oxygen tanks with COPD receiving chemotherapy. If they lose their house for a week, much less six months, it is a death sentence. This is not some legal. What What is your message to people who forget about liberty and pursuit of happiness? They will lose their life if there's a six-month gap, as would have happened in that program.
▶ 3:38:33Sir, we're very intentional on taking care of those people that are in permanent housing. We have no intentions on putting people on the streets.
▶ 3:38:39But what I'm telling you is your partners on the ground in Illinois
▶ 3:38:42are telling us in the Illinois delegation, we are going to have to kick thousands of people out onto the streets who will die.
▶ 3:38:49And so, you can send them to us. We're happy to talk to them to make sure that that doesn't happen.
▶ 3:38:53Well, they're not trusting that. I'm also hearing from the private sector. I know you've been very supportive getting the private sector involved. Most of the continuum of care funding, of course, goes to landlords, right? Goes to the private sector. What's your message to those people who are sitting there and saying, "I was counting on that HUD funding and now that funding is potentially on hold for six months are tied up in litigation. Why should they stay in that business?"
▶ 3:39:15Well, sir, I would tell them it is tied up in litigation and I think the people that want to be in this business the litigation is because the litigation is because you shortened the benefits in the program. No, the litigation because they don't like how we want to change the uh continuum of care program. That's the exact reason for the litigation.
▶ 3:39:31Sir, your your actions have injected uncertainty into a program. Markets don't like uncertainty. The 40% of all permanent housing residents are seniors. What's your message to to those seniors who are going to find themselves unhoused because because the landlords aren't going to provide the housing? What's your message to the four the the 4,000 veterans who are living in supportive housing?
▶ 3:39:56We've made it very clear that we've prioritized our veterans and seniors.
▶ 3:40:00I thank the gentleman from Illinois. Chair recognizes the chair of the Republican conference, Miss Mlan from Michigan. You're recognized for five
▶ 3:40:09Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for being here today. It's uh very nice to see you again. I I think we've all agree that we have a a housing issue in in America, right? um the affordability of housing and also the availability of h of housing and it seems like both sides agree on that. I'm happy to report the Republicans are actually trying to fix it um in a bipartisan fashion which I hope we can in get there.
▶ 3:40:36Um one of the things I do want to talk about is some actual legisl legislation that we have. Um, I remember when we had the modular housing uh event on the mall and you actually came out and toured it to see it and touch it and and feel it with with your own hands. Um, I I appreciate that. I'm proud to have introduced legislation on the Modular Housing Protection Act with Representative Lynch.
▶ 3:41:01Can you discuss how modular and manufactured homes have changed over the past two decades? I mean, I think of a modular home, you know, back when I was growing up and what we saw on the mall is completely different. And then the bureau question is, should these homes be eligible for federally backed mortgages with h help the availability and the affordability?
▶ 3:41:24Yes, ma'am. So, as you saw on the innovative housing showcase, modular homes are a lot different than the mobile homes that we're used to uh back in the 70s, if you will. Uh they're very innovative, they're creative, they're efficient. Uh they're uh
▶ 3:41:39they're beautiful.
▶ 3:41:40They're beautiful. The cost to build them is half of a single family home as we do know it. And so to uh get rid of the permanent chassis obviously would give us more flexibility and help the manufactured housing industry. Uh as you know also it has been hard uh historically for um people to get loans for modular housing. So all of these things are being discussed at HUD and with industry partners.
▶ 3:42:04uh happy to discuss this with you and your team as we know that the manufacturing home uh industry will be a tremendous gap filler if you will and opportunity for people as we u attack this housing affordability issue in our country.
▶ 3:42:18Thank you. I I think you would agree with me that it is incorrect to blanketly classify all manufactured homes as personal property and that's what this bill does. It reverses that. Right? How does this definition of personal property on manufactured homes limit manufactured housing um adoption
▶ 3:42:40Yes, ma'am. You alluded to, you know, the definition. We have to update a lot of the codes definitions at HUD which we are tirelessly working on.
▶ 3:42:47Appreciate it.
▶ 3:42:48Uh as you know, so welcome your ideas uh on there so that we can unleash our modular housing industry.
▶ 3:42:54Yeah, I would ask everyone to support this bill. It is really crucial to to the availability and the affordability and it lets people who need homes the most actually be able and to go out there and get financing. Now, let me just switch a little bit to housing infrastructure.
▶ 3:43:13Can you discuss the roadblocks that municipalities are running into when trying to find affordable finance options to expand housing related infrastructure? Uh yes ma'am. A lot of this has to do with the regulatory environment uh both from an infrastructure, from a lending, from a capital uh standpoint. And this is obviously an overarching view uh that we've talked about um immensely uh since our time coming to HUD and also this morning.
▶ 3:43:41So taking down this regulation and the regulatory environment and barriers uh will unleash not only the lending market, the capital market, but also the infrastructure and building. I I I think this is an obvious question um but I'm going to ask it anyways just to make my point. Every piece of regulation that we layer on top with another layer of administration, another layer of bureaucracy, another layer of regulation, does that make costs of buying a home go up or go down?
▶ 3:44:11It makes it go up.
▶ 3:44:13Absolutely. And I think us um here we're really trying to focus on getting rid of the barriers to entry and actually making housing more affordable. Put the power back in the people's hands. Do you have an estimate on what these regulatory costs would be for an average
▶ 3:44:32Uh yes ma'am. About 25% of the cost uh to build a single family home is regulation. About 40% of the cost of a multif family uh project is in regulations. and it is not sustainable. We have to bring it down.
▶ 3:44:45Thank you. And I think we just need to continue. There's one thing to talk about helping people. There's another thing to pass legislation to actually let people get in and buy their first home. That is affordable, that is reasonable. So, I applaud your work and I applaud your efforts and I really applaud the fact that you get out there and touch it and feel it and see it. So, thank you for the work that you've done. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield
▶ 3:45:09Thank you. Gentlewoman yields back. Chair recognizes the gentleoman from Ohio, Miss Batty, who's the ranking member of our subcommittee on national security. Recognized for five minutes.
▶ 3:45:18Thank you, Mr. Chairman and ranking member. Um, and to you, Mr. Secretary. I'd like to get through uh a few different topics with me. So, with you, so you're going have to bear with me. I'm going to try to speed through these because I have a a lot of questions because housing is personal to me. Uh my very first job after college was with a public housing authority and for more than a decade I was a consultant to HUD with relocation uh contracts. Uh so it's it's a big deal to me.
▶ 3:45:49And in my home state of Ohio, the latest GAP report shows that we're facing a shortage of some more than a quarter of a million affordable rental homes for extremely lowincome renters. In order to afford a fair market rent two-bedroom apartment in Columbus, Ohio, a household must earn at least 27.79 an hour.
▶ 3:46:12Under your leadership, the department has slashed significantly scaling back operations at several regional and field offices across the country, reducing HUD's ability to serve communities on the ground or oversee housing programs. I've been in constant communication with our notfor-profits and affordable housing stakeholders over the last year and they have all told me that their inquiries to HUD have gone unanswered for months.
▶ 3:46:42So, I'm going to ask you to respond to that, but let me also ask you, do you remember getting any of the many letters that I addressed to you? I mean, you knew you were coming in here. You probably figured I'd ask you that question.
▶ 3:46:54Yes, ma'am. We uh we have
▶ 3:46:56Do you No, it's a yes or no. We It's a yes or no. No. No. Come on. Work with
▶ 3:47:00We get many letters, ma'am.
▶ 3:47:01It's so the answer is no. You don't remember getting the one from me. So, let let me do I did that. We get many letters from you and it's my it's my
▶ 3:47:11Secretary Turner, it's my time. So, since you remembered it, I didn't get an answer from you. Several letters. Now, on Friday, we got basically a form letter from your staff because you knew you were coming in here and we were going to ask you that. So, I just wanted that for the record.
▶ 3:47:27Well, I'm glad you I'm glad that we
▶ 3:47:29No, it it was not a good response.
▶ 3:47:32That's insulting what you just said. Wasn't a good response. I'm glad that we did respond, ma'am.
▶ 3:47:37Well, a a year you shouldn't be proud of a year to give me a response. So what is your explanation for the breakdown in communication with housing organizations in addition to me? My organizations have said that they have not heard from you. So can you tell me what are the staffing cuts increasing? Um how are these staffing cuts increasing the supply of affordable housing uh for my
▶ 3:48:05Uh yes, Madam Congressman. We uh I'm not aware of any uh communication issues, but I'm happy to work with you on a
▶ 3:48:14Look, my time. Let's talk about the cuts now. Okay.
▶ 3:48:17What's your explanation on the staffing cuts, increasing the supply of affordable housing for my constituents?
▶ 3:48:26Ma'am, we have adequate staff at HUD. uh we have not uh missed a beat as it pertains to uh servicing the American people either in our field offices, our regional office or here at our
▶ 3:48:36That's not true. So let me just go to the next my time. Let me go to the next question. Let me go to the next
▶ 3:48:42Okay. I I'm also very upset because when you look at HUD's changes to the fiscical year 25 notice of funding opportunities for the continuum of care following up with what Sean Casten had brought up which HUD temporar temporarily withdrew and reissued in December.
▶ 3:49:02I am aware that the uh notice of funding opportunity was blocked by a federal judge, but if HUD's changes to the program are successful, Ohio will lose $80 million in permanent housing for formerly homeless people and we will drop from $114 million to $34 million across Ohio.
▶ 3:49:2710,000 households, including children and veterans and people with disabilities, they will lose their housing. Secretary Turner, how will destabilizing housing for 10,000 households, people who have a place to live that they now call home, address the homelessness, and how you'll solve the housing crisis in my home state?
▶ 3:49:50Yes, ma'am. I believe that these changes that we'll make will actually help us to
▶ 3:49:54What are the changes? I don't want words. I want you to give me actions. What will you specifically have your folks do?
▶ 3:50:02We will not only concentrate on housing people, actually treating people so that they can get uh healthy and transformed and actually wraparound services, ma'am. Wraparound services like my Let's talk about wraparound services
▶ 3:50:13like Mrs. Peterson's wife uh mother has used wraparound services to treat the real root cause of homelessness. This will help us better serve.
▶ 3:50:20Okay, let me let me ask you on that. I'm glad you mentioned wraparound.
▶ 3:50:23Gentleoman's time is expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Donald's, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 3:50:30Uh, thank you, Chairman. Secretary Turner, it's good to see you. Um, I want to start specifically for with an issue in Florida. Um, I've received significant outreach um in in my state on an issue dealing with uh a 2008 Fanny May policy regarding the application of the limited review process for condominiums. For 17 years, this policy has only applied to Florida and has negative negatively impact condominium owners throughout my state.
▶ 3:50:59Under of the selling guide, Flityians seeking to purchase a condo are required to put 25% down upfront and are subject to a 75% loan to value while the rest of the country qualifies for 90%. What actions are required by the FHFA to fix this and make Florida subject to the same lending terms as the rest of America?
▶ 3:51:25Yes, sir. Thank you, Congressman Donald. It's great to see you again. Uh I will make sure that we work very closely with our partners at FHFA to make sure that uh Florida residents as it pertains to your issue are being uh treated appropriately and fairly in this issue. Uh and happy to work with you and your staff as we go forward on that.
▶ 3:51:43Absolutely. because this is something obviously in our real estate market, you know, as we're having a transition of units um from buyer to seller, it it's especially in light of the fact of the affordability issues when it comes to housing um not just in Florida, but in the United States at large, I think it's important that the state of Florida and their residents have an opportunity uh to really not be disadvantaged just because they chose to make Florida uh their home.
▶ 3:52:08Um, one other question like obviously uh the min the median age for first-time home buyers has been increasing for quite some time in the United States. What are some of the factors as you see that are contributing to the rise?
▶ 3:52:19Yes, sir. Well, I think our fiscal house was not in order. Uh the cost to buy a home, the cost to build a home, inflation was at an all-time high. Mortgage rates were at an all-time high. Interest rates were at an all-time high. But under President Trump's leadership, these things are coming down day by day. Uh really the proof is in the pudding. Uh mortgage rates are down. People are starting to buy houses now, getting loans.
▶ 3:52:40Uh so as we get our fiscal house in order, as we secure our border uh and actually focus on the American people, uh I believe that the American dream uh is right uh in view and grasp of many many more people in the days to come.
▶ 3:52:52Listen, I want to thank your agency for doing some work around the innovation of constructing new homes. I heard uh your commentary with uh with my colleague from the state of Michigan uh about the future of modular housing. It is not these are these are not um trailer parks. Um and that's not to demean trailer parks. I think there are people who they've chosen that to be their home uh whether it was the 70s or 80s and live in them in in my state like in other states around the country.
▶ 3:53:17But I think it's important for people to understand that the future of home construction of home construction isn't just about sightuilt homes. It's also about homes that are actually manufactured um in facilities and then actually uh brought out to the home site and and stood up. And especially for Flidians, uh what I've seen, and I know you've seen this as well, Mr. Secretary, is that the construction standards meet the hurricane codes in Florida and can meet the the codes of just about any jurisdiction in the United States. I don't know if you want to elaborate on that, Mr. Turner, with the
▶ 3:53:47No, I'm in total agreement. You know, I'm for the manufacturing indust industry. So, whatever we can do to unleash them in the appropriate manner uh to serve the American people, I'm for
▶ 3:53:56All right. Well, listen, Mr. Secretary, thank you for your time. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 3:53:59Thank you.
▶ 3:54:01Gentlemen yields back. Votes have been called on the House floor and pursuant to the previous order, the chair declares the committee in recess. Subject to the call, the chair will reconvene immediately after the floor votes. If everybody would remain seated before the secretary could excuse
▶ 3:54:27You stay. The committee stands in recess.
▶ 4:38:11The committee will come to order. Chair recognizes the gentleman from New York. Mr. Lawler, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 4:38:27Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Housing affordability is one of the most common concerns I hear from my constituents as numerous factors including high mortgage rates and taxes and most critically a limited supply of housing are making this the most difficult time to purchase a home in a generation. One of the goals of the bipartisan housing for the 21st century act is to modernize and reform outdated housing programs to better fit the needs of today.
▶ 4:38:56And as you strive to achieve the same goals in your role as secretary, it is critical that we be working together and providing accountability and transparency to the American people. I'm proud to have included in the Housing for the 21st Century Act my HUD Accountability Act. This would be the first uh this would for the first time require the HUD secretary to testify before the committee on an annual basis which is not currently statutoily mandated.
▶ 4:39:26Uh would you support a yearly requirement? I know you've had a lot of fun today uh for the HUD secretary to testify before Congress. Uh and would yearly testimony ensure you and future secretaries uh ensure that HUD is accountable and transparent to Congress and the American
▶ 4:39:44Well, Congressman, uh it's always good to see you, sir. Great to visit with you yesterday. Uh to be honest, uh to hear about to come every single year. I'm happy to see all of you. Uh but accountability is important.
▶ 4:39:56Transparency is important
▶ 4:39:58and when we take these jobs, we want to be accountable uh to the mission that we have. Uh so happy to uh always be available to speak to uh you and your
▶ 4:40:09Appreciate it. For decades uh NICHA uh and other troubled public housing agencies have failed many families and oversight mechanisms have fallen short. I'm proud to have introduced and had included in the housing for 21st century act my improving public housing agency accountability act and the accountability for NICHA act. legislation that will ensure proper oversight is being conducted and reforms are enacted for the residents of these housing authorities.
▶ 4:40:39NICHA each year receives billions of dollars annually and in 2024 they had over 70 employees indicted for bribery and other crimes in a single day.
▶ 4:40:50Preventing waste, fraud, and abuse in taxpayerbacked programs remains a critical goal of this administration. What tools does HUD already have to address improper payments and program integrity that have not been used
▶ 4:41:06Thank you, sir. And I agree. You know, we talked about NICHA extensively here in this committee and uh indeed there is corruption nor accountability uh not only in NICHA but other PHAS across our country which we are obviously responsible for and I Dennis and our um chief financial officer uh their office are working on on projects to make sure uh that we validate and receive subreient data as it pertains to contractors and others to make sure that we're validating uh everyone and make sure the money that is
▶ 4:41:37being allocated is used proper. properly and appropriately because as you know this is American taxpayer money.
▶ 4:41:43No question. And certainly there's an enormous amount of work uh to modernize the department and improve the efficiency and impact on services and really the accountability to taxpayers.
▶ 4:41:55Uh and I think the administration is doing a tremendous amount of work to help address the cost of living more generally. Uh as folks have been struggling for years with rampant inflation and unaffordability. uh as well as the overall cost of living, whether we talk about groceries, whether we talk about insurance, whether we talk about utility costs, and these are all things that we are working to uh rein in uh both in a Republican le house and and uh in the administration.
▶ 4:42:23Um but I think it is also critical to ensure that while we're pursuing these goals that we are preventing service disruptions uh for those who need it, including individuals and families experiencing homelessness. And so I urge you to keep that in mind as the department explores changes to the continuum of care grants that we've heard a lot about and uh really for all other programs that Americans are relying on.
▶ 4:42:49I think there's a lot we can do, but at the end of the day, this really comes down to supply and demand. We need to build more housing in this country. We're 8 million units plus underbuilt nationwide. That is what is driving the increase in cost for housing, for rent. Uh and it makes it harder for the funds that we do dedicate to go further. Uh and so we need to be addressing some of the impediments to building more housing.
▶ 4:43:17We need to uh increase the flow of capital into uh you know the public so that people can purchase a home, that people can build uh homes etc. and have greater supply to address the unaffordability issue that we see all across this country.
▶ 4:43:35Gentleman's time is expired. Thank you,
▶ 4:43:38Gentleoman from Texas, Miss Dela Cruz, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 4:43:43Thank you, uh, Chairman Hill, for holding this important hearing. And thank you, Secretary Turner, for being here with us today. As a fellow Texan, it is nice to have you here. And if we can have you here on an annual basis, it is such a pleasure for us.
▶ 4:44:00And um my district is in deep South Texas, the Rio Grand Valley, and um housing has become a dream that many of our young folks feel is just not attainable anymore. Thankfully, this committee under the leadership of Chairman Hill um we have focused on addressing these concerns through our housing for the 21st century act.
▶ 4:44:25I also want to thank you for your efforts in refocusing HUD on housing affordability. That being said, Mr. Secretary, I'm sure you would acknowledge that in order for HUD to serve those who need housing assistant most, you must first ensure that HUD is a good steward of our tax dollars.
▶ 4:44:47Well, shockingly, in the last Congress, your predecessor sat right in your chair, and when I asked her if there was any fraud, waste, and abu abuse, she said no.
▶ 4:45:01Now that you've been here a year in your position, please share with us any um any fraud, waste, and abuse that you've had and um talk about HUD's most recent financial report released in December highlighting potential payment errors of $5 billion that were made under the Biden administration.
▶ 4:45:25Uh yes, ma'am. And that's unfortunate that my predecessor said there was no wage fraud and abuse because HUD had been wrought with wage fraud and abuse. When we first came in, we found about $ 1.9 billion in uh misplaced funds. I'm not sure how you misplace almost $2 billion. Uh but we took the appropriate steps to deobligate that and sent it back to the treasur. We found $4 million just in DEI contracts that had nothing to do uh with housing and so we canceled those contracts because that's American taxpayer money.
▶ 4:45:54Uh you mentioned the $5 billion in improper payments uh that we are on top of. We have a tremendous CFO invest in that office. We want to make sure that the money that American taxpayers uh work for hard every day is used appropriately and the stewardship is there for the American people. We are mission-minded at HUD and we will continue uh to root out fraud and waste and abuse and hold people accountable uh who defraud the American people.
▶ 4:46:18What I love that you've said over and over again throughout this hearing is a good steward of taxpayer money. And I think that's what the American people want us to do is they want us to help those most in need and not have the waste and the fraud that we've been finding and that you just mentioned. Now, Mr. Secretary, I'm going to turn our attention to something that is near and dear to my heart and yours, and that is opportunity zones.
▶ 4:46:44This is an initiative that you helped lead during the first Trump administration and as you know with the passage of the one big beautiful bill the opportunity zones are now a permanent part of our tax code. So I think this represents an incredible opportunity not only for those in South Texas to spur housing development and bring down costs but for all American communities.
▶ 4:47:11Can you share what HUD is doing to encourage housing development in opportunity zones?
▶ 4:47:17Yes, ma'am. We're excited about the continuation and the permanency of opportunity zones uh because they were so transformative and important uh since 2018 to 2019 in the last Trump administration. We expect that there should be over hundred billion dollars invested in opportunity zones, hundreds of thousands of units of uh housing built and people being lifted out of poverty. And that precedent has already been set because of the first round that we saw in data and results in opportunity zones.
▶ 4:47:44Single family uh housing job creation um business creation is of utmost priority uh in opportunity zones but in particular for housing and single family uh not just in urban but also in our rural uh parts of our country to make sure that revitalization is coming in a very powerful way. You mentioned opportunities to lift people out of poverty, new bis small businesses and uh different single dwelling homes that are available.
▶ 4:48:14Does HUD have all of the opportunity zone data that it needs currently? And are there any tools that HUD needs from Congress to better leverage the opportunity zone
▶ 4:48:26Yeah, that's a great question and thank you. Uh yes, ma'am. We do have the data uh from our um opportunity zone policy and initiative. The more data the better. And so I'm happy to hear any ideas that you and your colleagues have on that and data collection to make sure that we're doing exactly what we're supposed to be doing and the results are
▶ 4:48:45Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 4:48:46Thank you, ma'am. Gentlewoman yields back. The gentleoman from Florida, Miss Salazar, you're recognized for five
▶ 4:48:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Wonderful to be with you. Secretary Turner, you said in February of 25 that you were committed to reforming HUD with the goal of lowering the cost of housing and expanding our housing supply. And we agree, we all agree with that, right? So, right now, these are the numbers. 75% of Americans cannot afford a home.
▶ 4:49:17Number two, 92% of construction firms report having trouble filling positions that they have open. Number three, 20,000 homes were not built uh last year. My question to you is why is that
▶ 4:49:34Well, that's a great question and that's a lot of information. Uh you know, when we first came in, you know, the president inherit a real mess. Our fiscal house was not in order. Interest rates were at an all-time high. The cost to build anything was at an all-time high. Mortgage rates were at an all-time high. Inflation was at an all-time high. So if you see the president, as you've seen under his leadership, we've been bringing these numbers down uh to make sure that housing is affordable for people in our country.
▶ 4:50:00Start right there. Housing needs to be affordable. Affordable housing means that the home is built at a price with a developer. And I know that very well coming from Miami, we have a lot of construction. A lot of my supporters are developers. And you only make money if you can build a home at a price where you make money and then whatever the selling price is,
▶ 4:50:21right? It's so then everyone is happy.
▶ 4:50:24Public sector and the buyer,
▶ 4:50:26right? So we have to bring those cost
▶ 4:50:28One in three tradesmen, carpenter, drywall installers, roofers, framers, they are immigrants. Mhm.
▶ 4:50:37You have a seat at the table in the cabinet and you know that the construction sector is losing that stable, secured labor force and the United States citizens are not choosing to fill those jobs. Don't you think that maybe you can tell the president that right now we do not have the hands that we need in those sectors in order to continue having affordability in the housing industry?
▶ 4:50:59Yes, ma'am. That's a concern that we've heard. Uh but I personally believe that we have the American workers to take
▶ 4:51:05how come they're not I agree with that too but how come they are not choosing and willing to engage in those sectors because then the developers do not then need to hire any immigrants because they have the American uh labor force willing to do it. So do you agree that Americans choose not to fill those jobs one in three in the sector in the construction sector is an immigrant? Well, I will say this. I don't know why they're not choosing those jobs. Those jobs are available. We have many.
▶ 4:51:34I come from, you know, they're not developing, right? Okay. So, National Association of Homebuilders, National Association of General Contractors, National Association of Roofing Association, National Association of Mason Contractors, the Brick Industry Association of the United States Chamber of Commerce agrees with a piece of legislation that I introduced called the Dignity Act. Why? because they need the hands.
▶ 4:51:59So what is it that we that these people know that the administration has not been able to grasp yet about the construction sector? What do you think that is?
▶ 4:52:08That that is a lot of associations that you named off uh and maybe they should do a survey with with private sector people and ask them why they're not taking these jobs. that they have all this data. I would be interested to say what is the reason that the American people are not taking these jobs and I think you should go to
▶ 4:52:23and they're losing that the only people who are willing to do those jobs.
▶ 4:52:28So we have a very big void here.
▶ 4:52:30Do you agree with that? So how are we going to solve that? We're going to talk about housing and affordability but if we don't have the hands how can we get to that goal?
▶ 4:52:40Well I think we have to get back to encouraging the trades. You know, for many years in this country, we the trades sector went down. Builders, welders, carpenters, plumbers, because we talk about college and we talk about all these.
▶ 4:52:51Well, I agree with you, but in the
▶ 4:52:53but we have to talk about the trades to get people involved in the trades.
▶ 4:52:56I agree with you. We got to teach our kids how to do that. But in the meantime, what do we do?
▶ 4:53:02We got to teach them how to build. We got to encourage them to build. American jobs for American people.
▶ 4:53:07I agree. In the meantime, what do we do? continue to enforce and encourage the traits and make sure that American people have American jobs. That's our
▶ 4:53:21Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 4:53:22Yes, ma'am.
▶ 4:53:23Gentlewoman yields back. Gentleman from Florida, Mr. Heropoulos is recognized for five minutes.
▶ 4:53:28Mr. Secretary, great to see you again. Thanks for the opportunity we speak with you today. Earlier, some questions uh brought up about section housing and I wanted to one recognize your good efforts on those to look for potential violators. How are we using um uh the different tools that we have, Mystery Shopping for example, to identify some of those folks who aren't playing by the
▶ 4:53:50Uh yes, sir. We are very intentional about holding our uh PHAS accountable and home land and homeowners accountable. Uh we are working with our CFO's office with Dennis uh with Project HUGS and others to make sure that we're verifying payments. Uh and for the first time really in HUD's history, we are verifying our project based rental assistance and our tenant based rental assistance to make sure uh that these monies are going to the people that they're supposed to be going to and used
▶ 4:54:21I appreciate that. A good effort. Um we already know that under the FHA loans are already assumable. Uh but the feature is often underused due to administrative complexity and high upfront cost. Is HUD looking at ways to clarify or streamline FHA rules or or loan assumption processes so they're more accessible to buyers and sellers?
▶ 4:54:44Uh yes sir. Our housing uh office is working uh diligently as it pertains to streamlining our processes uh with Frank Cassidy and Matt Jones and Lamar Seats and others. Uh this is discussion and they've also executed on this as you know to make this process more streamlined and quicker uh to the market. So yes, sir.
▶ 4:55:03And and one final question if I could. How does simplifying FHA um program requirements encourage lender participation and support housing supply especially in high growth states as Miss Salazar brought up the state of Florida. Uh we are desperate need of more housing so we can bring down costs supply and demand laws I believe in. They're not made here in Congress. They're in the real marketplace. What are we doing there to try to make sure that we encourage that lender participation which is so vital?
▶ 4:55:31Yes sir. I believe in when you streamline the process, you make the process easier, uh you have the ability to get more loans for more home buyers to build more homes across our country. So streamlining it is very important and we're working very diligently on that day by day.
▶ 4:55:45And is there any piece of legislation that that we have either in the kitty now or that you'd like to work on? I' I'd love to work with you on that. I think it's so vital that we we look for that lender participation because again it's we we had a real challenge over the last four years with 10 million people coming here illegally and that that is a supply and law reality when you have 10 million people looking for housing uh you're going to have challenges to say the least and so any way that we can get more participation and again you're on the front lines you have the expertise
▶ 4:56:15and we'd love to follow that lead so that we can offer more alternatives more supply to drive down that cost as you have already done a great job of reducing interest rates in their in our first year in office. So, thank you for your leadership on this, Mr. Secretary. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield
▶ 4:56:31Thank you, sir.
▶ 4:56:32Gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes the gentleman from New York, the chair of the House Homeland Security Committee. Mr. Carbino, you're recognized for five minutes.
▶ 4:56:41Thank you very much, uh, chairman and secretary. Thank you very much for being here. You've emphasized consumer empowerment, self-sufficiency, and uh the importance of education in helping families achieve sustainable home ownership. These principles are especially important given the growing sophistication of threats in the housing market.
▶ 4:57:00FBI data uh indicates that uh real estate related fraud losses have more than doubled since 2019 uh with cyber enabled fraud reaching 16.6 billion in 2024. Industry data further shows that roughly 30% of title insurance claims stem from fraud or forgery, often involving six-f figureure losses for both homeowners and lenders.
▶ 4:57:24Given the risk profile, how should HUD think about consumer education uh on real estate fraud?
▶ 4:57:31That's very important, sir. And thank you. you know, education is of utmost priority uh in our FHA and our housing um department at HUD, and we will continue to use our housing counselors at HUD to make sure that people are well educated uh so that fraud does not take place. Um we want to literally uh do what not has not been done, and that's to help people as they go through the housing process to make sure that they're not being taken advantage of.
▶ 4:57:55Is there something HUD can uh can do? Can can they partner with the title insurance industry to both prevent fraudulent transactions before they
▶ 4:58:04uh as well as protect homeowners and lenders uh when defects or fraud uh still go through?
▶ 4:58:09Yes, sir. I I do love work with our industry partners. You know, we uh visit with people at HUD all the time that are experts in the indust industry to make sure that we're hearing any concerns or ideas or strategies they may have uh so that we can better serve the American people. So, yes, sir. I appreciate that. And someone who's done thousands of real estate closings in my prior life, uh, our title industry partners were some of the best assets that I had at a closing table. So, um, I don't want to switch gears here a little bit though.
▶ 4:58:36In 2024, the Biden administration rewrote HUD's federal flood risk management standards to dramatically explan expands the flood flood pain boundaries both vertically and horizontally uh, based on climate driven modeling rather than historical risk. HUD then delayed the compliance for single family construction until February of 2026, effectively acknowledging that the rule would significantly disrupt housing and development and affordability.
▶ 4:59:04Uh on Long Island, where I I'm from, where housing costs are already among the highest in the nation, and buildable land is extremely limited. This rule would further restrict development, drive up construction costs, and p push homeowners push home ownership even further out of reach for working families. With the current waiver now expiring uh or near expiring, will HUD extend this waiver again to avoid worsening housing affordable avoidance?
▶ 4:59:27Yes, sir. We in discussions with that and I agree with you. U it's it's not necessary. Uh we need to go back to what it was to make sure that we're not uh hindering development of all kinds of housing in our country. Uh and just further about extending the waiver, is HUD do you are you currently uh prepared or preparing for uh possibly moving forward with rulem to either revise or appeal this regulation uh so it doesn't have to you know so
▶ 4:59:52yes sir we can get we'll get back to you on that and work with you and your team. Uh I don't want to get ahead of our housing department, but obviously we are in discussions with these things, but we're happy to work with you and keep you ab breast.
▶ 5:00:02Great. Absolutely. Look, I said, you know, extending the waiver is great. Uh but, uh it's a bad it's a bad rule. I think that's why they they put the they they put the waiver or the delay in. So fixing it while we still have time is is probably a great idea.
▶ 5:00:17Thank you.
▶ 5:00:17Um again, I'm going to change topics again. Uh, another, if you recall, during the bid administration, the FHF FA proposed moving away from the long-standing trimerge credit reporting requirement for conventional mortgages. Members of this committee raised service concerns that such a change would undermine the safety and soundness of the housing finance system by increasing underwriting risks and reducing transparency at a critical point in the mortgage process.
▶ 5:00:42These concerns were further compounded by the likelihood that weakening this standard would ultimately raise borrowing costs for consumers as lenders would be forced to price in greater uncertainty and risk. As you know, FHA loans continue rely on trimerge credit report as the gold standard for underwriting. Maintaining this requirement serves an important credential guard rail to protect both market stability and consumers. Do you agree, Mr.
▶ 5:01:08secretary that the triurge credit report requirement continues to serve as a critical credential safeguard for both consumer protection and systemic stability in the FHA and broader mortgage market.
▶ 5:01:19Yes, sir.
▶ 5:01:20That's great to hear. And um I have it'll take me longer than 15 seconds to read my next question, so I'm just going to submit it to you in writing, but it has to do with a uh FAA issue a draft FAH HA mortgage e letter about uh mortgage servicesers and subserers. Okay. Thank you.
▶ 5:01:38I'm [clears throat] going to submit that in writing to you. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. I yield back, chairman.
▶ 5:01:41Appreciate you.
▶ 5:01:42The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Moore, is now recognized for 5 minutes.
▶ 5:01:47Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. Glad to have you here with us today, sir.
▶ 5:01:51Uh, you know, in western North Carolina, communities are still grappling with the devastation that was caused by Hurricane Helen back in 2024. The storm damaged or destroyed more than 74,000 homes and caused an estimated 15.4 4 billion in housing losses in North Carolina alone. For most families in these mountain communities, flood insurance was not an option. You think about you're on the mountain, you don't generally think of floods.
▶ 5:02:16Although, and I think it's important people understand this, a landslide is actually considered a flood event as you know, which a lot of people didn't know that. But as a result of the lack of the flood insurance, the community development block grant disaster recovery program has become the primary federal resource for rebuilding homes. So for these folks, time matters. So I want to first of all, Mr. Secretary, thank you and thank the president for moving so quickly to get disaster recovery resources to work in North Carolina.
▶ 5:02:43Uh and I think it's also worth noting the first trip that the president took since when he took office January last year was to North Carolina. It was honor to accompany there. Uh he told the folks that I represent and others represent he would be back and he has kept that. And I got to say, Mr. Secretary, your agency has also stepped up. Uh but you know under the previous administrations the CDBG uh DR funds took years to move from congressional appropriation to actual construction.
▶ 5:03:12U what so I know you all are working on trying to deal with this getting those funds deployed but what are you finding are the primary causes of delay in getting those funds from the appropriation construction to uh getting it actually from from here essentially to there where folks need it.
▶ 5:03:29Yes sir. Well and thank you. You know, I have been to North Carolina to visit the families there. Uh that was one of the first trips that I took uh in my time uh when I was confirmed here and grateful uh for those families. I did see a resiliency uh that I had not seen in a long time. I'm grateful for the American people in North Carolina. Um you know, it's processes and we've been working on streamlining our processes here. As you know, we got 12 billion dollars in CDBGDR out.
▶ 5:03:55Uh we have a great team in our CPD office uh that is very intentional about streamlining the processes and getting the funds out the door to the people who need them.
▶ 5:04:04Right. And what steps has HUD taken to streamline those approvals and to reduce the administrative burden on the states and localities?
▶ 5:04:11Yes, sir. Well, we're taking out all the duplicative processes. You know, only those processes that are needed and we have a tremendous team to help people along the way in the process that may have questions. were always available to walk people through that process where before I don't think that was available uh which was a backlog uh if you will and resources getting out of the door. Uh so again we have a tremendous team in CPD and that's the reason why you see resources going out in the expeditious
▶ 5:04:36You know one of the long-standing frustrations again we're talking about the past um has been the lack of transparency and and consistency as well. It seems like every disaster brings a new set of rules, waiverss, requirements, and you have these local governments and you have individuals who are just trying, they just want to get rebuilt. Uh what methodology, if you know, does HUD use when determining these allocations,
▶ 5:05:02the methodology to ter to determine allocations for CDBG?
▶ 5:05:06Yes, sir. Um we do have a process as you know uh and our team I'm happy to have them talk with you and your team to make they can walk you through this step by step uh so that you have a greater understanding uh but we are trying to make that process easier as we speak uh for the people that receive these grants because that has been a problem uh in time past but I believe that now it's becoming more simpler uh but it will continue to be worked on so the methodology is simple for everybody uh that applies and receives these grants
▶ 5:05:36and then And I I know y'all my understanding is y'all are sharing more data now with between from HUD with FEMA and also with SPA SBA to improve the efficiency as well. And I know one of the t the frustration I know always is get the money out now now. But we also have to guard against the waste, the fraud and the abuse.
▶ 5:05:56So and and I applaud the administration's efforts and in doing that as well. You know, beyond disaster recovery, housing affordability remains one of the most pressing issues that that we have. Home ownership's increasingly out of reach and communities continue really to struggle with housing shortage driven by years of of underbuilding. What reforms do you think would allow the like the program the home program to support housing production more effectively?
▶ 5:06:22Yes, sir. We have to bring down regulations number one from a federal and a local state standpoint. When you bring regulations down, it brings the cost down. When the cost down, it helps us to build more supply. We have a supply issue in our country. And so, we've been very intentional. You see, the president is taking very bold steps to work on housing affordability. And so, all of our programs are under analysis and review to make sure they help us to accomplish the mission at
▶ 5:06:46Great. Well, thank you for doing that. My time's expired. Appreciate the good work that you're doing. And next time you're in North Carolina, let me know. I I'll treat you to some barbecue. I want to ask you which one's your favorite. It'll be it'll be my treat. Thank you, Mr. Secretary. With that, M. Madam Chair, I yield back.
▶ 5:07:01Thank you.
▶ 5:07:02Thank you so much. And I'd like to thank Secretary Turner for coming in for his testimony today. But I'd also like to uh trump Mr. Moore down there and invite you back down to South Texas to have some real barbecue.
▶ 5:07:17Now, wait a minute. Thank you. [laughter] You're going you're going to meddling now, Madam Chair. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witness to the chair. The questions will be forwarded to the witness for his response. Secretary Turner, please respond to no later than February 25th, 2026. And I will see you in Texas. This hearing is ajourned.