▶ 0:08:07Heat. Heat.
▶ 0:08:54Committee on Foreign Affairs. will come to order. I'd ask everybody rise. Join me in the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
▶ 0:09:17Thank you. of today's hearing is to address concerns related to Syrian President Ahmed Al-Shara and discuss the wide range of challenges that he needs to contend with for Syria's transition to succeed, including as it relates to security, force integration, minority rights,
▶ 0:09:48justice, and accountability. And I will now recognize myself for an opening statement. I think the United States of America, the world, and the Syrian people themselves are all hungry for Syria to turn the page from years of Syrian conflict and despot leaders to a country that adds to the region, adds to the world instead of detracting from it.
▶ 0:10:13a country that invites back in those who fled instead of creating more refugees. I don't believe that any of us thought transitions from the dictator Bashar al-Assad to now Syrian President Ahmed al-Shara would be without incident. But we've already seen too many incidents in my opinion. Too many incidents of sectarian violence against religious and ethnic minorities.
▶ 0:10:40There are a wide range of challenges faced in Syria in order to reach a peaceful democratic governance. I could tell you that I had the opportunity to meet with Syrian president. We spoke about a number of There are ongoing challenges including the presence of foreign fighters within the security forces, many of them backed by Turkey. We've seen the recent actions against the Syrian Democratic Forces, our long-standing counterterrorism partner and Kurdish ally.
▶ 0:11:10That is unacceptable. There have been actions against the SDF that forced Sentcom to relocate 7,000 ISIS fighters from detention facilities across Syria and move them into Iraq. Also of serious concern, Russia has maintained a continual presence. We don't know entirely why. Perhaps that's because they are still harboring Bashar al-Assad, the ousted Syrian president, and the Syrian people want him back for justice.
▶ 0:11:38We can't be sure, but it's definitely an issue that we need to contend with. And we all know the current Syrian president is a former al-Qaeda fighter. These are all serious points of concern. When I met with President Alshara last November, I asked him very directly, why are he and I no longer enemies, me as a US soldier, him as an al-Qaeda fighter.
▶ 0:12:02And his response was that he wishes to liberate himself from his past and have a noble pursuit for his people and his country. when he met with President Trump the next day and joined the global coalition to defeat ISIS. That was a glimmer of hope. But the fact is Syria is nowhere close to where they need to be today.
▶ 0:12:27The United States is not satisfied with the progress that he has made yet and views many of his actions as steps backward. We need President Alshara to do better. These are not easy things to deal with, but recent actions against Drews, Kurds, and Alawites are all steps in the wrong direction.
▶ 0:12:46They do not create confidence for the United States and President Al-Shar's desire to create, as he said to me, a noble future for the Syrian people, as he said he wanted to do. President Alshara does not have a blank check from the United States of America. The United States repealed the Caesar sanctions because the reason for them to exist, which was the presence of Bashar al-Assad. That reason no longer existed. But we made it clear that conditions must be met in exchange.
▶ 0:13:17Those conditions include advancing military integration, protecting religious and ethnic minorities, as well as their integration into the Syrian government, and working with the United States to combat terrorists. Congress was pleased to see the recent integration deal signed by Syrian President Al-Shara and SDF General Mazum, whom I was happy to meet with in this past January, which was a step in the right direction.
▶ 0:13:42But this is the third of its kind to be signed, and the United States expects action, not empty words. The goal of today's hearing is to examine the challenges Syria faces and the implications for US national security interests if Syria does choose to go down the wrong path. I want to ask unanimous consent before we continue on.
▶ 0:14:09I ask unanimous consent that the member from Oklahoma, Representative Brachen, and the member from Indiana, Representative Stzman, be allowed to sit on the dis and participate in today's hearing without objection. So ordered. And I now recognize the ranking member from New York, Representative Meeks, for any opening statement that you may have.
▶ 0:14:28Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to say thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.
▶ 0:14:34It [snorts] was just over a year ago the Syrian people celebrated the end of five decades of a brutal dictatorship under the Assad family. The fall of Bashir ushered a in a new beginning for the Syrian people and a critical opportunity for the interim government of Ahmed I along with many members of Congress repeatedly decrieded the Assad regime's ceaseless brutality which was characterized by years of brutal bombings
▶ 0:15:04and extensive torture apparatus we are continuing to learn more about and a criminal disregard for the most basic responsibilities of governance. He perpet perpetuated one of the 21st century's most shameful campaigns of atrocities against his own people. crimes against humanity for which he must be held accountable. Now the Syrian people face a much different reality and a hopeful future.
▶ 0:15:35Gone are the days of Assad and his dictatorial family ruling with an iron fist and destroying the country for his and his family's exclusive benefit. Interim President Shar has promised to govern with inclusivity and justice. And when I met with him in New York last fall, he was clear about his intentions to be a president for all Syrians. Congress and the administration have recognized the hope and potential for Syria's future that this moment offers.
▶ 0:16:06We have responded by both waving or eliminating longstanding sanctions on Syria, including the Caesar sanctions act last December to enable critical investment and economic support. This is vital for Syria and President Shar's government to rebuild after decades of neglect and destruction at the hands of Assad.
▶ 0:16:30And while I am optimistic and supportive of the Syrian people working toward a new future, I am also deeply concerned by recent violence against ethnic and religious minority communities. incidents such as last April's brutal violence against the Drews communities and Sara Sueda which killed dozens of civilians and damaged several homes and continued attacks against both Syrians Christians and Drews underscores the insecurity
▶ 0:17:00plaguing Syria's transition. last June's ISIS attack against uh the Malas Orthodox Church that killed over 30 worshippers and injured dozens more is yet another brutal reminder of the threats Syria minorities face. Additionally, I'm concerned for Syria's Kurdish communities and the situation they face after years of their courageous partnership with the United States of America.
▶ 0:17:29The Syrian Democratic Forces or the SDF served as critical counterterrorism partners in operations against ISIS, proven effective and capable force. But once again, the Kurdish people are facing violence at the hands of Democracbased security forces, including as recently as just last month.
▶ 0:17:52I'm encouraged by the January 30th agreement between Democus and the SDF, but need to see commitment from President Sherah to implement it and rein in the abuses of certain units.
▶ 0:18:09as June's attack on the Orthodox Church and another attack last December that killed three US personnel show, ISIS has been degraded but must be fully eliminated so as to no longer pose a threat to the Syrians's government as well as to Syrian civilians or US interests and partners in the region. To be clear, eliminating ISIS is not purely a military matter.
▶ 0:18:39Stabilization and development efforts must also provide alternatives and livelihoods for those who are too often ripe targets for ISIS recruitment, especially families and youth in Syria's impoverished rural But the Trump administration's destruction of USAID has crippled those efforts.
▶ 0:19:04So I'm keen to explore ways in which we in Congress can act to support those goals. In short, while I stand with the Syrian people in turning the page toward a new future, we must see President Shira keep to his word of being a president for all Syrians and ensure Syria's ethnic and religious minorities are safe and fully represented. Thank you, and I yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 0:19:32Thank you, Ranking Member Meeks. Other members of the committee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record. We are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic. Many people came to hear you all today. The Honorable James S. Jeffrey, the Philip Salons fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and Ambassador Jeffrey previously served as special representative for Syria engagement and special envoy to the global coalition to defeat ISIS from 2018 to 2020. Mr. Andrew J.
▶ 0:20:02Tabler, the Martin J. Gross senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Mr. Tabler was the Syria lead at the National Security Council during the Trump President Trump's first term and later went on to work with Ambassador Jeffrey at state. Miss Dun Miss Naen Mayansza the former chair of US Commission on International Religious and Dr.
▶ 0:20:25Mara Carlin a professor of practice at John Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies and a visiting fellow and the Brookings Institution. This committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and is grateful to have you here to speak with us today. Your full statements will be made a part of the record. I will ask you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in order to allow time for members to ask their questions of each one of you. I now recognize you, Ambassador Jeffrey, for any opening statement that you may have.
▶ 0:20:56Thank you, sir. Uh my oral remarks will reflect a summary of my written statement. Mr. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, members of the committee, today Syria is probably the most important front in the international community's effort to stabilize long-term the Middle East following the two-year war begun by Hamas's terrificly horrific attack on Israel.
▶ 0:21:22The victory gained by Israel, the US, and regional allies over Iran and its proxies opens the door to possible sustained peace and development in Syria in the region. As laid out in President Trump's Riad speech, the administration is pursuing now generally in Syria an effective policy towards that end.
▶ 0:21:41Building on the success of the Biden and the first Trump administration Syria policies supported by Congress which helped bring Assad down, the US should continue leading the international community to unify and stabilize the new Syrian state.
▶ 0:21:56That requires, as we've already heard from the speaker and ranking member, uh, ending internal conflicts, integrating security forces, building the economy, keeping Iran and proxies out, keeping the Islamic State defeated, and a Russian presence contained. This effort does not need massive American resources, but rather sustained attention, particularly to ensure that the international community follows common policies among all of us towards Syria.
▶ 0:22:25Damascus will only take the difficult but necessary steps to reconcile war hardened internal animosities and rebuild destroyed infrastructure if those giving support speak with one voice on approaches and requirements. We should bear in mind the alternative. As both the speaker and ranking member mentioned, the Syria of yesterday was not only the epicenter of Iran and its proxies march through the region and the center of Islamic State activity.
▶ 0:22:54It was also the scene between 2011 and 2024 as again mentioned of the most horrific regional conflict since the Iran Iraq war 40 years ago. But even before then, Syria has posed a unique danger to the region at one or another point, threatening all five of its neighbors.
▶ 0:23:13In shot, as a purveyor of violence and instability, it has been in a class of its own in the Arab world, not due to its decent, heroic population, but to its atrocious US interests in the region over administrations, again, with congressional support include promoting peace, prosperity, and regional cooperation by, with, and through partners. Syria is essential to achieving all of them.
▶ 0:23:39Short term, this means first reconfiguring the defeat Islamic State Coalition given Damascus's entry into that coalition and the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces change status to complete the defeat of ISIS, roll back remaining Iranian influence in the Levant and deter any Russian destabilizing actions. Second, keeping troops on until the situation stabilizes. Here, Mr.
▶ 0:24:06Speaker, Congress could again reiterate its support as you've all done in the past. Third, finalizing a security agreement between Syria and Israel. Fourth, implementing the January 29th agreement between Damascus and the Syrian Democratic Forces on cultural rights, governance, inclusivity, and security, integration, including ending the siege of Kabani, allowing all resident courage
▶ 0:24:36to return to Afrin and keeping open the crossing into Iraq for humanitarian deliveries. Fifth, advance individual rights and constitutional reform by building on the quasi election of a people's assembly back in October to include formalizing the January presidential decree regarding Kurdish identity and cultural and language rights and extending such tolerance to other groups.
▶ 0:25:03Sixth, prioritize early recovery, energy deliveries, and infrastructure refurbishment in coordination with international donors. Seventh, and this is a lesson we've taken from other conflicts, particularly Bosnia and Kosovo, recognize that international reconstruction efforts and other economic and diplomatic support to the new government, must be directly linked as leverage to the Syrian government success on the priorities stated above and you all have mentioned.
▶ 0:25:33Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
▶ 0:25:37Thank you, Ambassador Jeffrey. I now recognize Mr. tableabler for any opening statement that you may have.
▶ 0:25:43Chairman Mast, Ranking Member Meeks, and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify on the challenges facing Syria 14 months following this dramatic collapse of the brutal Assad regime. Since assuming office in January 2025, the Trump administration has sought to transform Syria's government from a longtime foe into an ally capable of stabilizing a country that has seen considerable instability for over a century. and in doing so cut off Tahran's power projection to the Mediterranean and across the Middle East.
▶ 0:26:13US policy has centered on considerable top-down engagement, including three meetings between President Trump and Syrian interim President Ahmedara and record-breaking administration efforts to lift US sanctions. Such engagement has successful has been successful at diminishing Iran's presence in Syria and fighting the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria or ISIS.
▶ 0:26:33During times of crisis concerning Damascus's military moves against minority dominated armed groups in Syria, US policy has been punctuated more recently by calls from Capitol Hill to reimpose sanctions in defense of Kurdish dominated Syrian democratic forces and Kurdish civilians in northeast Syria as well as military strikes by neighboring US ally Israel in defense of Drews in southern Syria near Sueda.
▶ 0:26:57This overwhelmingly good cop, selectively bad cop approach has helped Elshara government consolidate control over more Syrian territory while averting the often uncontrolled sectarian strife that characterized parts of the Syrian war and that and that many feared would follow Assad. Damascus's moves against the SDF last month and this month.
▶ 0:27:18Drew's National Guard last July and against the Alawite dominated Assad regime remnants and civilians last March have caused considerable concern in Washington and elsewhere that the emerging Alchara government in Damascus will be unable to include and accommodate the interests of Syria's sizable minority communities with some going so far to say that the Alshara government is replacing Assad's minority dominated authoritarian regime with one dominated by the country's majority Sunni Arab population Unfortunately,
▶ 0:27:49we are not in that situation, at least yet, and we must not end up there. By continuing Washington's approach, all the while more closely watching and evaluating developments on the ground in in the United States has a hope of achieving President Trump's vision of giving Syria a chance to succeed, stabilize, and in doing so defeat ISIS and deal a strategic blow to America's adversaries in Thran and elsewhere.
▶ 0:28:15Perhaps the biggest challenge in evaluating progress are a myriad of information and disinformation campaigns by supporters and opponents of President Ashara, which along with recent developments in northeast Syria is why I suspect you've probably called this hearing. Even people in my hometown of Oil City, Pennsylvania are beginning to ask questions about what is going on in Syria, why US troops are still there, and who are we handing the country over to.
▶ 0:28:41I hope my comments help you and the American people cut through the fog of war and hopefully the emerging peace in Syria. Quickly on your five points on security force integration. Syria's interim authorities under President Ashara have pursued rapid security sector consolidation following the collapse of the regime. While these steps have produced visible institutional architecture, it is unclear if they have resolved the underlying fragmentation of coercive power. And I can go into that in my testimony on inclusive governance.
▶ 0:29:08While institutional coherence has improved, the process has thus far prioritized executive control over broad-based legitimacy. Minority participation, security integration, and decentralization remain unresolved and a work in progress, leaving the transition vulnerable to renewed fragmentation absent more inclusive and negotiated next steps. Civil society space has expanded relative to the Assad era. It's a pretty low bar, but remains fragile and uneven.
▶ 0:29:36The constitution state under minority rights states that citizens are equal before the law without discrimination based on race, religion, gender or lineage. The government constantly reaffirms that Syria is is for all on the ground.
▶ 0:29:49However, many Alawites, Kurds, and Drewus with whom I speak feel a deep distrust of President Ashara's government and his forces and in particular tribal and other forces without insignia that have fought alongside government forces focused on conquering Sua in southern Syria and during President Ashar's recent campaign in the Kurdish dominated uh northeast. On justice and accountability, there have been three main tests.
▶ 0:30:16one on Assad era crimes they have established the transitional justice and missing persons commission and I think that's very positive although both commissions have been kind of slow to act on the coastal clashes a factf finding committee submitted a report to um to President Oshara concluding that commanders did not give orders for revenge attacks and identified nearly 600 implicated individuals whose names were sent to judicial committees public trials have begun though so far only 14 individuals the committee's report has yet to be released in full.
▶ 0:30:46And last but not least, on the SUA clashes, a factf finding committee is still investigating and in November, members of the security forces were detained, but no numbers were released. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:30:57Thank you, Mr. Tabler. I now recognize Miss Mayansza for an opening statement.
▶ 0:31:01Good morning, Chairman Mast, Ranking Member Meeks, and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on the challenges facing US policy in post Assad Syria. I will summarize my written testimony, which is more detailed. I served two terms as a Trump appointee on the US Commission on International Religious Freedom or Usurf including as chair. I now serve as co-chair of the International Religious Freedom Round Table, chair of the Institute for Global Engagement, and a senior adviser to the Shy Fund.
▶ 0:31:28Ambassador Sam Brownback recently warned genocide could occur in Syria within four years if the US does not have the right policy. As this committee considers US policy in Syria, it is urgent that we weigh its impact on religious freedom and vulnerable communities, including Christians, Yazidis, Drews, Alawites, Kurds, and others. Congress anticipated this challenge when it passed the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998. How a government treats its minority communities is a clear indicator of whether it will be a stable and a reliable partner.
▶ 0:31:59We all want Syria to succeed. Syrians deserve safety and a path to rebuild. But Syria's future cannot rest on short-term deals that ignore its deep religious and ethnic diversity or deny equal citizenship. Without social cohesion, there will be no durable peace, and the chaos that follows will give ISIS and other extremists room to grow. Northern Syria is proof a different future is possible. I have visited Syria more than a dozen times in the last six years. Most often in the Northeast, but twice in Damascus this past year.
▶ 0:32:29Since 2019, I have seen what you've documented in northeast Syria. Remarkable religious freedom conditions. The Syrian Democratic Forces lost over 11,000 lives defeating ISIS alongside the US coalition. But they also built inclusive governance that helped protect minorities and strengthen social cohesion. As areas were limited from ISIS, local communities were empowered to govern, deliberately including religious and ethnic minorities with half the leaders being women.
▶ 0:32:55That cohesive society, a refuge for religious and ethnic minorities, is now under threat. On January 10th, President Trump urged the Syrian government to end its attack on the Kurdish neighborhoods in Aleppo that are also home to Yazidis and Christians. But the offensive did not stop. Government forces seized those neighborhoods and pushed into the northeast.
▶ 0:33:13During the operation, um, is isl Islamist Syrian security forces themselves recorded and circulated evidence of a horrific crimes against Kurds, including beheadings, even of women fighters, execution of families, female fighters body thrown from a building, rape, torture, including the gouging out of eyes. The northeast did not need to be integrated by force at this cost of human life.
▶ 0:33:36On January 30th, the SDF and the Syrian government announced an integration agreement aimed at preserving inclusive governance and limiting the entry of these security forces into minority areas. But agreements are only as strong as enforcements. The US should press for transparency, monitor conditions on the ground, and make clear violations will carry consequences because preserving local governance and security is essential to protecting religious and vulnerable communities, and it could be a model for other vulnerable areas.
▶ 0:34:06This past year, as you've heard, Syria has also seen a wave of brutal violence against minority communities, often including Islamist members of the Syrian security forces made up of HTS fighters, foreign fighters, and Turkishbacked Syrian National Army. Some seen wearing ISIS patches and some sanctioned by the US government. Alawites faced horrific large-scale kill killings in March 2025 with entire neighborhoods targeted, men, women, and children. Some reported deaths of around 1500, but most believe the toll is far higher. And of course, violence continues.
▶ 0:34:37Jews communities in SUA faced staggering violence in July. We reported mass killings likely higher than the 1600 reported with abductions and disappearances, sexual violence, mass displacement of at least 120 thou,000. Four civilians were executed over the weekend and there's been an expanded siege in the last few days.
▶ 0:34:55Christians were targeted in the June 26 22nd suicide bomb bombing of Mar Ellias Church in Damascus reportedly by ISIS killing at least 25 and wounding over 60 and Yazidis remain at acute risk if extremist elements enter their areas raising fears of atrocities reminiscent of ISIS's 2014 genocide in neighboring My written testimony provides details in a full list of recommendations. I will just highlight a few.
▶ 0:35:22Designate Syria a country of particular concern unless immediate verifiable changes are made. Create a mechanism to monitor and enforce the January 30th Northeast integration agreement and pass the Save the Kurds Act. The United States should also demand that Syria in the seizures in Kabani and Suea, deliver an inclusive government, revise the interim constitution to guarantee equal citizenship, correct Yazidi's legal status, and remove foreign fighters and sanctioned actors from the military.
▶ 0:35:49If President Ashar is a pragmatist, many claim the sustained pressure is the only way to counter the Islamist base and steer Syria away from authoritarian re-entrrenchment and towards inclusive governments and equal citizenship. Only then can Syrians live with long-term peace and stability. Thank you.
▶ 0:36:06Thank you, Miss Manza. I now recognize Dr. Carlin for any opening statement that you may have. Chairman Mast, Ranking Member Meeks, and distinguished members of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. Just over a year has passed since transformative events occurred in Syria. President Assad was deposed, and notably, none of Assad's backers were able or willing to recognize him. Here's my bottom line up front. After many decades, Syria's moving in the right direction.
▶ 0:36:35But its trajectory is not guaranteed, and the struggles it faces may get harder. Building the new Syria requires juggling major political, economic, and security opportunities and challenges Political fragility characterizes Syria. The government has taken many pragmatic steps, and their writer the further one travels from Damascus. There have been some troubling instances of restrictions that merit scrutiny for evidence of the government's influence and ideology.
▶ 0:37:05Many minority groups hold justified fears about what their future will be in the new Syria. The civil war shattered Syria's economy. 90% of Syrians live in poverty and rebuilding will take more than 200 billion. The human element is inextricably tied to the future of Syria's economy. Millions have returned home and millions more fear doing so. I saw the major economic challenges firsthand on a recent visit to Syria.
▶ 0:37:31While Damascus itself is bustling just 15 minutes out of town, there is devastation as far as the eye can see. The security situation in Syria is growing trickier, characterized not by widespread violence, but by worsening violence in certain areas. The two toughest domestic security issues in Syria are intertwined. The Kurds, the Kurds autonomous region and the institutions they've established and current and former jihadists.
▶ 0:37:58On the first piece, the visions of Damascus and the SDF fundamentally differ. Outside actors can shape both parties incentives so they are bought into reinvisioning their evolving roles and relationships. For the Kurds, meaningful integration into the Syrian state requires giving them the confidence that they have a future in a unified Syria, one where they have security and rights.
▶ 0:38:21On the jihadist front, the Syrian military must responsibly secure ISIS prisoners and ISIS affiliated family members, particularly amidst the SDF's integration into the Syrian military. The Syrian military must be vigilant in its effort to integrate former HTS members and foreign fighters pose a particular challenge.
▶ 0:38:40And of course, regional dynamics matter as well, including the Lebanese military historic efforts to establish operational control south of the Latani River and the rivalry between Israel and Turkey that plays out in Syria as well. So over the past year, the United States has made the right strategic choice, engaging the new Syria while remaining vigilant.
▶ 0:39:03Congress and the administration deserve credit for lifting sanctions, removing barriers to cooperation, and welcoming the first official visit by a Syrian head of state to Washington. Going forward, I recommend five priorities. First, reopen the US embassy in Damascus. This should be the top priority and would provide a crucial platform for implementing the following recommendations.
▶ 0:39:25It must of course be executed in ways that that meet security Second, monitor the ISIS threat. Encourage the Syrian government to meaningfully participate in the global coalition to defeat ISIS. also tasked the Pentagon to offer a quarterly report detailing its approach to countering ISIS, including the US military's mission and rules of engagement and the plan to secure ISIS prisoners that are transferred from Syria to Iraq.
▶ 0:39:55Three, launch a security sector reform program. This would involve tasking the Pentagon to work with the Syrian military on a robust program as it integrates armed groups and is rebuilt to facilitate Fourth, encourage the protection and livelihood of all Syrians. Urge the Syrian government to protect minorities, including holding those who violate this tenant accountable.
▶ 0:40:20The dismantlement of USA ID means there are fewer tools available to the United States to help a fragile country. This is not merely a humanitarian concern, but a security imperative. I recommend you task the State Department to explore what stabilization and development resources still exist to build capacity in critical sectors.
▶ 0:40:39And fifth, continue US-led regional security convenience convenings because only the United States has the credibility to facilitate dialogue on security arrangements between Syria and Israel and Lebanon and Israel. And relatedly, the regular US engagements with Turkey appear to have been beneficial as well. Today, Syria is undergoing a moment of transformation, a rare one for a country that has seen so much destruction for so long. The United States can help the new Syria seize this opening.
▶ 0:41:10Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you, and I look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 0:41:14Thank you, Dr. Carlin. I'm going to be here till the end no matter what. So, I'm going to start by recognizing my colleagues for questions. We're going to begin with Mr. Wilson.
▶ 0:41:22Thank you, Mr. chairman and thank each of you for being here today witnesses. We so appreciate uh as uh I'm very hopeful that we can give Syria a chance and I want to thank Chairman Brian Mast for his support of lifting the Caesar sanctions. This is fulfilling President Donald Trump's call to give Syria a chance. I am personally appreciative in that November a year ago, the Assad dictatorship correctly condemned me as an enemy of the state. And then three weeks later, Assad fled to Moscow.
▶ 0:41:53And then eight months later, I was grateful to be in Assad's office in Damascus with the new president of Syria. And so times have truly changed. And how incredible it was. It was bipartisan, biccameal with Senator Jeene Shaheen from New Hampshire. Additionally, uh it's exciting to me uh to give Syria a chance with President Trump uh welcoming President Oshara to the White House. It was reported it was the first time in 250 years uh that a leader of Syria has visited the White House.
▶ 0:42:23That's from the Syrian pers from an American perspective. Uh the Syrian perspective with the world's oldest city, Damascus, is the first time in 8,000 years that a Syrian leader has shown up in the White House. And so indeed with the challenges that have been identified and hey uh chairman mast was quite pointed with president Ashara uh about um addressing change and so this is not new as we were together uh a couple of months ago.
▶ 0:42:49Uh ambassador Tom Bareric is doing a tremendous work in securing a ceasefire and integration agreement between the Syrian government and the Syrian defense forces. I'm really grateful for the efforts of Prime Minister Masur Barzani and the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq for assisting in these historic diplomatic efforts in the agreement between President Ahmad Al-Shara and General Masur Abdi Maslum.
▶ 0:43:16I'm grateful to have founded the Kurdistan Regional Caucus 20 years ago. And now the Kurdistan Regional Government of Iraq is a symbol of prosperity. With that in mind, uh we have uh unfortunately hardline elements of the PKK uh and can deal uh that are intent on spoiling this but uh with continued conflict uh and what can be done uh to avoid the conflict which would destabilize
▶ 0:43:46the Kurdish communities of Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. And Ambassador Jeffrey, how can Congress support President Trump's objectives of integration and stabilization? And how can we address the Kurdistan Workers Party PKK role uh of some disrupting?
▶ 0:44:07Uh thank you, Congressman. Uh I've been involved with the PKK since the outbreak of the attack in uh Turkey in 1984. Uh we're at a turning point first of all with the ceasefire in Turkey. This is real between Ojalan held in prison the leader of it and the Turkish government. It's been going on now for a year. It is gaining real momentum.
▶ 0:44:32uh as you mentioned uh after decades of uh dispute between the PKK offshoot um in Syria that we now know as the Syrian Democratic Forces and uh the KRG, the Kurdish uh regional government in northern Iraq under the Bazanis and Talibanis, there's been much uh friction over the years, but that is now moving beyond uh everybody sees the Kurdish
▶ 0:45:02issue in Syria of individual rights and self-governance and there's a considerable amount of support. I think that Condell will eventually come around. Uh I think that they have lost the ability to dictate to uh the leaders of the SDF, the YPG, the PYD, they go by many names. Uh and I think they are working all in all relatively well with the central government.
▶ 0:45:27For example, uh the interior Syrian interior ministry uh sent in essentially company-sized elements to several of the Kurdish cities almost a week ago now, and we've heard no friction. And what I've heard from the scene is that people are working together. It depends on who you're dealing with. Some of the u uh Sunni Arab tribes from the Euphrates are still a problem. But all in all, we have good cooperation. This is being managed intensively by the US government, but also by many other countries.
▶ 0:45:56and so far they're all cooperating. Thank you, sir.
▶ 0:45:58And and ambassador, my time is short. Um, but I I want to point out how hopeful I am uh that indeed the new government of Syria can have a relationship with the government of Israel. How mutually beneficial it would be. Uh, additionally, uh, I believe we should all be working to remove uh the Russian bases at Hamem and Tartus. Uh they're the only Russian bases outside of war criminal Putin's bases and they provide logistics for the dictatorships of Africa and enslavement of the people of Africa.
▶ 0:46:28All the more important we work together. I yield back.
▶ 0:46:30Rank member Meeks.
▶ 0:46:33Thank you.
▶ 0:46:35Dr. Colin, uh, I am, uh, if the new Syrian government is to succeed, seems to me that, and I think you mentioned in your testimony that, uh, there's, uh, need to be development, uh, you know, uh, rule of law and civilian security sector, capacity building, and I think you talked about technical assistance for electric
▶ 0:47:06and water grid managements. I think all of these are extremely uh important because you have to reach the people that's on the ground. You know that makes a difference and that you know gives a feeling of a huge difference from the Assad administration um in that regards.
▶ 0:47:25Now for me uh we had utilized USID uh for a lot of those things uh and structures there and you recently uh were on the ground I believe and met with a number of uh officials and organizations there. So uh a can you give us an assessment of the humanitarian conditions there?
▶ 0:47:48uh and B uh could you tell us uh you know what we could have done or what we might have been doing if USAD with the tools that we have and then how do we without the tools now of USAD how do we become successful you know we know a lot of this got to be done by the Syrian people when I spoke to uh uh President Shar uh in in at the UN uh he was asking for those kinds of things also saying and using that as an indication of how he wanted to try to change things in Syria.
▶ 0:48:18Thank you, Ranking Member Meeks. The humanitarian situation is pretty devastating. As I noted in inside Damascus, you don't see it as much. You drive not terribly far away and it's just skeletons of buildings. Um, unexloded ordinance and folks trying to figure out what is their livelihood in this new Syria. Millions have returned. Millions just aren't sure what does returning look like. Will they be secure? Will they have jobs? What what what could that could that be?
▶ 0:48:46So there is a whole lot to be done on that humanitarian front. Um now we used to have a whole lot of tools to help with this as you know ranking member Meeks I think the office of transition initiatives in USAD was a perfect case study. They did a lot to help fragile states who are undergoing uh trans transitions. And to be clear, this is not just altruistic of course, right?
▶ 0:49:10It is in our interest for a country like Syria uh to be secure and to be stable so it doesn't export its problems the way that we have seen with Syria in particular over over the years. And that doesn't exist anymore because of decisions made by this administration. So going forward, there's a couple things we can do. One, we can work with the State Department to see what stabilization resources they have maintained and the extent to which they are prioritizing Syria.
▶ 0:49:39Given how crucial the Middle East is to US national security interests, we'd think this would probably want to be high on their on their priority list. Another thing we can do is work closely and convene have US leadership to to convene allies and partners both around the region but in particular from across Europe who also have a real interest in a stable and secure and therefore prosperous Syria as well. Thank you.
▶ 0:50:05Well, thank you. Let me just ask, is there anything else that you think that we in Congress should be paying attention to uh to what's missing and anything else you think that we should be advocating for uh in regards to trying to help stabilize the humanitarian assistance?
▶ 0:50:21Thank you. The security situation as uh as you um and Chairman Mast highlighted in your opening statements is really I think the other top priority. So what's happening um in terms of stabilization economically and then what is happening in terms of security. So there has been violence as as you you all noted particularly against minorities. Um what is the government doing to hold those accountable who are violating those norms?
▶ 0:50:47What are they doing to ensure that folks feel like they have a future in Syria? Otherwise, they are either going to destabilize the country or they're going to leave and potentially ultimately destabilize other other places as well.
▶ 0:51:00And that's exactly, you know, my cuz are there any additional actions that you think the Trump administration can do to ensure the protection of these communities uh to hold for example the uh perpetrators uh for of abuses accountable? Is there anything else that you think that we can and should be doing to ensure that the key pillars of the January 30th uh agreement are
▶ 0:51:25This agreement seems right. The question is less the words on the paper and more what are the actions that are taken? What is the reality? The United States has been a [snorts] crucial um has played a crucial role in shaping this agreement coming together in the progress that has been made to date. So I would really urge this to be a very high priority as it has been for for this Congress and as we have seen this Cong Congress's leadership and the admin administrations as well.
▶ 0:51:55This agreement has to work. Frankly, if it does not, we will see profound fragmentation uh and can perhaps push aside dreams of a newer and prosperous Syria. Thank
▶ 0:52:06Thank you, Ranking Member Meeks. I'm going to go to Representative Perry next, but uh let me do I understand you have a video that you want to play? That's what I was going to ask for the tech team. Is it ready yet? So, Representative Perry, are you comfortable if we come back to you in another round? Very good. Representative
▶ 0:52:24Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador, uh, put on your your way back machine hat. We were dealing with Syria once part of Trans Jordan, once owned by for 600 years, uh, by the Turks. Turkeykey's influence today is renewed and significant. Is that fair to say?
▶ 0:52:51It is. But it is an Arab country in an Arab Middle East and there are inherent tensions between Turks and Arabs. Yes,
▶ 0:52:59But some of the things that we're seeing in Syria seem to be affected by Turk. In other words, the treatment of Kurds seems to be a common denominator. For example, Turkeykey's inability to deal with uh or unwillingness to deal with minorities being treated fairly within Turkey seems to also be a similar problem in Syria today. Uh there have been problems in the past.
▶ 0:53:27I would say that uh over the last 15 years uh particularly in the last two years uh there has been an extraordinary reconciliation between the Kurdish population and uh the Turkish government. Uh we see this with the actions of the Kurdish party and the Turkish parliament and the cooperation on a ceasefire.
▶ 0:53:46Now, what the Turks have asked for, and it's reasonable, with the Syrian Kurds, is because the Turkish government has long had an extremely close relationship with both the Bazani and Talibani Kurds in northern Iraq, and I've been uh witness to that over decades. What they want is for the uh Syrian Democratic Forces leadership to sever their ties with the PKK uh and accept the larger uh ceasefire that is being worked with Ojelan.
▶ 0:54:15In fact, Ojelan, the the leader of the PKK, who's in prison now, has called for the uh Syrian Democratic Forces to do that.
▶ 0:54:22So, it's fair to say that one of the impediments that Syria faces in its reunification is in fact coming up with a way to deal specifically with a minority that identifies itself throughout what was once was Trans Jordan plus Iraq. Fair enough.
▶ 0:54:43Absolutely. But it's actually two minorities. The Drews in the south and the Kurds in the north and of course smaller ones that we've mentioned today. But I would say the biggest uh and the biggest project that we're looking at and it covers Iraq Syria, Turkey and to some degree even Iran is the Kurdish one.
▶ 0:55:01Well, as uh as somebody who has uh visited with the Drews in Lebanon many many times, uh u I was quite surprised quite frankly to see the uh what occurred with the Drews. But you're right. Uh I should have included that in Syria their uh their plight is different uh by far than it has been as one of the many confessionals in uh in Lebanon.
▶ 0:55:25Well, I asked those questions and asked you to put on the way back machine because you're the institutional memory here. You and I have known each other for years decades ago. Western powers made a decision to split up these countries to put them in certain orders and they've been in turmoil ever since.
▶ 0:55:47Is it fair to say and the most important question I think for all of us on this committee today that as we look at Syria while looking at a million refugees in percentage-wise the largest percentage of uh of a country as far as refugees is still Lebanon with the massive amounts even after the Syrian withdrawal.
▶ 0:56:06Jordanians still have a large amount of integrated and semi-inttegrated refugees that the State Department and this committee need to look at a holistic approach that goes from Iraq to t Turkey from Turkey all the way down to Egypt and that if we look at Syria in a vacuum and we don't deal with these broader problems we will be back here again as the doctor said and we'll be looking
▶ 0:56:36at well where's our agency to stabilize or fund this rather than did we have a plan to help this region recover fully not just uh uh one country
▶ 0:56:51I agree congressman but I would make one point uh we've been able to do that successfully in Europe with the help of our European partners and in East Asia uh where I began my military career uh we haven't in the Middle East because of the tremendous forces of disorder and violence.
▶ 0:57:10That's why in my statement I pointed to the fact that for the first time uh the Iranian proxy network throughout the region has been largely defeated and Sunni Islamic extremism with the defeat of ISIS is also at least for the moment largely off the table. That is a prerequisite for us doing in the Middle East what we've been able to do with our partners elsewhere. So I'm
▶ 0:57:32As am I. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. and I yield back.
▶ 0:57:35Thank you, Mr. Isa. Representative
▶ 0:57:40Thank you very much. Uh Mr. Chairman, um I concur that u that a lot of the obstacles to um to peace uh in that region have changed dramatically in the last several years. Um and Dr. Carlin and uh Ambassador Jeffrey, tell me um where should our focus be in 2026 to try to facilitate these opportunities? I see them as opportunities.
▶ 0:58:08Uh certainly the Syrian president was here. Um but what would be the the the primary steps that we should begin now? Uh and Ambassador Jeff and then uh Carlin, could you please respond?
▶ 0:58:25Short term, I believe the single biggest contribution you could make because it's where I think the administration may be wavering is to keep a few US troops on along with the heroic diplomats and assistance people that we move in and out of Syria until the situation stabilizes particularly in the northeast. We know what's going to happen with the ISIS prisoners and families and we know how the campaign against ISIS continues. That's the single immediate thing.
▶ 0:58:53longer term uh it is to ensure that we focus on uh verifiable agreements supported by the international community for the integration of these minorities that we've talked so much about. Uh as we've heard from my colleagues uh on this table, if there isn't integration and uh buyin from these people, uh we will see Syria descend into crisis again.
▶ 0:59:21and any administration needs help from you people be it funding be it hearings like
▶ 0:59:26is there a coordinated role that Europe can play with us on that effort
▶ 0:59:30coordinated role with what
▶ 0:59:32with Europe
▶ 0:59:34yes but more importantly is with the Arab states that is Qatar Saudis
▶ 0:59:39the moderate we referred to as moderate Arab states
▶ 0:59:43and and do you see that there's a determination after the challenges they've had with uh Israel in in with Gaza. Are they prepared to do
▶ 0:59:56I believe so. We are moving into phase two on Gaza slowly, but I'm encouraged by that. Uh the Israelis and Syrians uh came to a preliminary agreement uh on the 9th of January last month. Uh and uh there is considerable back and forth between Israel and the moderate Arab states today despite Gaza. car. Madam Carlin.
▶ 1:00:21Yeah, thank you very much, Congressman. Uh, I would add a couple points. Um, I do think we have to better understand what the US military is doing in Syria, particularly. We've seen, it looks like about 2,000 or so of the ISIS prisoners have been moved to Iraq. There is a plan to move uh a couple thousand more of them. That probably makes a degree of sense given the level of stability in Iraq compared to Syria.
▶ 1:00:45If that is the case, what is actually the mission, the rules of engagement, and the purpose of the US military staying in Syria? The other piece I would highlight in addition to what Ambassador Jeffrey did is the really important role the US is playing in terms of bringing Syria and Israel together and Lebanon and Israel together.
▶ 1:01:04So that latter one, for example, is crucial to making sure that the Lebanese government continues the historic steps it has started and has a whole lot more to go in terms of establishing operational control and disarming Hezbollah.
▶ 1:01:19on the former on the Syria Israel peace making sure that that is a quiet border making sure that the Israelis are able to have trust in Damascus and its willingness to behave as a responsible security partner is all really crucial for some sort of stability in the Levant.
▶ 1:01:39How much disruption do we think Hezbollah is still capable of uh of doing in that in that in those So they have been devastated at the leadership level and operationally and it doesn't appear as though they have been able to substantially rearm. They have largely permitted the Lebanese military to take the steps it has over the last few months to disarm them south of the Latani River.
▶ 1:02:07What's not entirely clear is the extent to which they've gotten more money. It appears as though that has happened to to some extent. And so I think we need to watch this space. They are
▶ 1:02:18part of their money source from Iran.
▶ 1:02:21Uh money source from from Iran indeed. Um and uh and and frankly just going through other other systems that aren't terribly well monitored because the Lebanese economy is um is devastated. Frankly, it's a really cash heavy
▶ 1:02:34Well, we have a number of failed states there [laughter] in
▶ 1:02:37indeed. Indeed. So it's pretty easy to get money money through. So I worry a lot about that. Slightly less about the weapons right now. Look, Hezbollah is still in some disarray. They also know things are about to get harder for them if the military decides, and I hope that it does, to keep on going further north and to the Becca Valley to actually disarm them.
▶ 1:02:58Well, my time's expired, Mr. chairman, but I'd like to hear more about the carrots and sticks that we have available to us with our European allies and and the U Middle Eastern uh states that we're working with to to try to facilitate some important goals in 2026. Thank you very much. I'll yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 1:03:17Thank you, Mr. Costa. And if time allows, I'm more than happy to move into a second round of questioning later.
▶ 1:03:21Okay. If you have more questions. Uh chair, now are we ready for Mr. Perry's? Just hold hold if you're ready, but hold it. I'm not ready to play it yet, but you're ready
▶ 1:03:31at my direction. All right, Mr.
▶ 1:03:34It's your five minutes, my friend.
▶ 1:03:36Yes, I appreciate that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate
▶ 1:03:38you are recognized.
▶ 1:03:39Thank you, sir. Uh, I'm going to address my questions to uh to Miss Mensah, but I want to create some context here first. You know, Syria was a predominantly Christian country until about the fifth century when the Islamic conquest of Syria started and culminated in about the 13th century. And ever since then, it's been a living hell for all humanity that has uh that has lived under the religion of the so-called religion of peace.
▶ 1:04:09Mr. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to enter for the record a series of videos that I have received uh and I would like the committee to have on
▶ 1:04:18without objection. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's been said that Mr. Assad has been unable to protect minorities and I want to make the case that he's not unable, he's correction, not Mr. Assad, Mr. Alshara, uh that he's not unable, that he's unwilling. Um because as uh former you know HTS is wandering around and Mr. Galani uh rebranded al-Qaeda is not a whole lot different than ISIS. It's not a whole lot different. Let's face it.
▶ 1:04:46If you had a choice between ISIS and al-Qaeda, which one would you really choose? Is there is there a whole lot of difference? And and I know that HTS has said, you know, that they're renounced global jihad, but they haven't renounced globe or jihad in Syria. They haven't renounced that at all. And so to set the context of because people talk about violence here, but they don't know what it looks like. So we're going to play a video and I'm going just tell you up front.
▶ 1:05:14If you don't want to see things that are shocking and barbaric, turn your eyes away. It's about 40 seconds and then I'm going to ask you some questions. Ma'am, go ahead and play the video, please. It'd be great if it had the sound because they're rejoicing over over uh these women that they have killed. And it's not enough to kill them. You have to desecrate their bodies.
▶ 1:05:47Doesn't look like much of a fighter to me. Neither does she. Now, she's still alive. This one right here, she's still alive. And they're talking about, "Oh, she's still alive. Well, not anymore. This is life in Syria for minorities. Not some fancy picture where we all hope it's going to get better. You can trim the beard of an Islamist and you can dress him up in a suit and send him around the world.
▶ 1:06:18I think we're a foolhardy to believe that he's anything other than an Madame Mensah, tell me I'm wrong.
▶ 1:06:28Um, those videos, I just had some sent to me this morning from Hica showing women being raped. Um, you know, the this military uh campaign into the Northeast was unnecessary and that was proof that didn't have to happen. They could have integrated in peacefully. And the fact that these Islamists put um, you know, an ISIS flag over Raqqa, I mean, it didn't stay up long probably, but it just shows that that's some of the ideology. And it's so easy to look at the PKK narrative and be like, "Oh, the Northeast is dangerous because they used to be part of PKK." And not everyone in the Northeast is PKK.
▶ 1:06:58And the PKK has never been a threat to the United States. In fact, they're trying to make peace with Turkey. And so to to make that be um the issue when al-Qaeda was responsible for 911 for the attacks on US embassies and the US co SS coal and here we have these fighters with a history of al-Qaeda who sometimes wear ISIS patches on their vests you know and and committing atrocities as we've seen against minorities. And so I do think you know the Syrian security forces are a real problem.
▶ 1:07:26Um and I you know they include for instance Turkishbacked um um Syrian National Army leaders as as heads of brigades or actually in in military positions like for instance the head of the 86 division um over northern Syria was tra was um sanctioned by the US for trafficking Yazidi women and girls for horrific human rights violations. Yet he's a leader in this military.
▶ 1:07:51So I think we can't just manifest what we want this military to look like or what we want this government to look like. We have to actually look at it with real clear vision and I think there needs to be an enormous amount of pressure on um Alshara to remove these elements from their um from from the military and also this is why this integration deal must work. And I'll tell you what I'd love to have time to explain.
▶ 1:08:14I got an update on the ground this morning and there are some problems here because right now the deal keeps these Islamist forces out of minority villages but they haven't pulled back. They were supposed they were supposed to pull back by the end of today. They haven't and what we can't allow is for them to be in Assyrian Yazidi Kurdish villages in the northeast because we're afraid we're going to see more videos like that.
▶ 1:08:33If I can just comment on Mr. Jeffrey you said we had these successes in the past with other countries under another model. you're dealing with another culture, other cultures that actually respect life and don't live as a death cult. Unfortunately, that model is not going to work with Islamist who want to cleanse the world of anybody that is an apostate or an infidel. And so, I think, look, I'm for I'm hopeful that something great can happen happen with Syria and the United States ought to be part of that.
▶ 1:09:02But giving all our leverage in advance to me doesn't seem a good idea and a good way to make sure that happens. Mr. Mr. Chairman, I yield.
▶ 1:09:10Representative yields. Uh, Representative Vladimer is recognized.
▶ 1:09:18Mr. Chairman, I don't have any questions at this time. Thank you.
▶ 1:09:26Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And let me start by genuinely thanking the chairman for not not just for holding this hearing, but for what you tried to do on the repeal of the Caesar Act. When the White House and Senate leadership pushed to hand Damascus a clean, unconditional sanctions lift, you pushed back. You insisted that repeal come with at least some benchmarks and reporting requirements and at least a skeleton of accountability, which I think is critical.
▶ 1:09:52I want the record to reflect that this committee on a bipartisan rec basis rejected the administration's reckless instinct to give away our leverage for nothing in return. Syria is one of the most complex ethnic and religious mosaics on earth. It has a 5,000-year history, not a short history, of the last few hundred years. Sunnis, Arabs, Kurds, Alawites, Drews, Syriaks, Armenian Christians, Yazidis, is Turkmen. And that's just a little bit of the list to uh go through.
▶ 1:10:21For 50 years, Assad for forced the mosaic together with terror. The question before us, obviously, is can the new government hold it together with consent? The evidence is mixed at best, and we have seen massacres and violence targeting minorities, as was just shown, US sanctioned individuals have not been effectively sidelined. Extremism is too often becoming normalized.
▶ 1:10:47And concerningly, Turkey is becoming incre in increasingly entrenched in Syria. Meanwhile, the administration has dismantled USAD, the most effective stabilization tool this country has at exactly the moment Syria could use it the most. It has terminated demining programs in a country littered with unexloded ordinance is just one example. Mr. Mr.
▶ 1:11:10Chairman, I know we share the conviction that Syria's transition deserves American support and that it must be conditional, cleareyed, enforcable support. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about whether the conditions Congress set are being set, whether the tools we have are adequate, and what this committee needs to do next. And Ambassador Jeffrey, if I can start with you and what you were talking about, uh, you talked about Syria as an Arab country.
▶ 1:11:38It's 90% Arab but within that there is great diversity and maybe in the context of other countries. Can you do a very briefly comparison of the diversity the complexity of the Syrian ethnic mosaic relative to countries like Iraq or or or
▶ 1:11:58Uh thank you sir. I think Iraq is a good example posi because I spent a lot of time there and also because uh while you do not have Drews, you have a large Kurdish um minority and you have a very dramatic split between Shia and Sunni Arabs who seem to get along less with each other than the Kurds get along with either of them.
▶ 1:12:19Uh what I would say is that uh these terrible pictures that we have seen uh unfortunately I have experienced in many of my tours in the region and far away from the Islamic world frankly uh in Southeast Asia as well. Uh and therefore there's a tendency when order breaks down when you have chaos in groups fighting other groups that people uh turn into these basically beasts.
▶ 1:12:47Uh first of all we have to monitor it. Secondly we have to measure how bad is it in which direction is it going uh for all of the uh horrors particularly of the first attack uh against the um the Alawites uh in the spring of this year and then in Sua uh the fighting against the Kurds which was brief in Aleppo and then a bit in the northeast uh had far less casualties.
▶ 1:13:15There were 27 killed in uh Aleppo according to most accounts compared to thousands in Sua. So is the trend going in the right way? Basically yes. Does that mean we won't see others? No. But what we have seen and this is almost surprising to me from my bad experiences elsewhere. We had one pro we one terrible situation in Latakia with the Alawites who of course were largely Assad supporters. And since then it's been almost a year now there has not been major fighting.
▶ 1:13:43There's been killings back and forth, but nothing like what we saw. Likewise with the Drews. Uh, and I am confident from what I've heard from both sides that we've got a good chance of having this 29 January agreement between the Kurdish uh Syrian Democratic Forces and the central government uh survive. Now, the problem is, and we saw this in the film, there are these unregulated, undisiplined elements, particularly the tribes. They're a problem uh for the Kurds in that area.
▶ 1:14:12And that's something that we and the Syrian government have to give priority to, sir.
▶ 1:14:16Well, thank you. I have many more questions which I'll hopefully have a a second round uh to touch on. But let me just say it's important as we look here. We have to understand the ethnicity. We have to understand the topography of Syria. It is distinct and it defines how we approach it. We have to understand the politics.
▶ 1:14:32And as was said here, the United States, it's imperative that we stay involved, we engage, we hold our our partners to account and that we work to make sure that Syria doesn't go down a um disastrous path that we've seen in the past, but hopefully has a positive future that we all pray and wish for. I yield back. Thank you, Representative Schneider. And uh I would tell people because I keep hearing this brought up, there's a reason that US aid no longer exists.
▶ 1:15:00And as one example, in Syria, they diverted about $10 million of meals to al-Qaeda fighters. It was intended for Catholic relief services. The person that diverted that is still at large today. There's a warrant for their arrest, Mr. Al Hafaya. And so there are reasons that US A doesn't exist because they were burning through cash.
▶ 1:15:22If anybody wants to have that argument, I got about a hundred examples of really embarrassing things they were doing like transgender seminars and other things like that which we should all be very embarrassed about. In that I recognize Representative Burchett.
▶ 1:15:36Are you embarrassed that you had to recognize me, Mr. Chairman?
▶ 1:15:40Not at all. Number one is our in our hearts as you always remind us.
▶ 1:15:43435 on the chart. Yes, sir. Ambassador Jeffrey, do you have concerns about Ahmed Aler and his previous ties to Sir, I have concerns about every leader I've dealt with in the Middle East. That's a that's a that's an easy escape. But I will say yes, but I've also monitored it closely. While I cannot confirm because it would involve intelligence methods and sources.
▶ 1:16:09Uh the New York Times in November published an article talking about how beginning in 2016, US agencies were working with him uh against uh the Islamic State and to some degree Assad. And again, that is generally consistent with what I was involved in from 2018 on. We work closely with him.
▶ 1:16:30President Trump issued a demand to the Russians in September of 2018 not to help Assad attack Idlib where Hayat al-Sham uh than Al Galani's people were because they were so effective a in fighting Assad which was an important and the Iranians important issue for us B fighting the Islamic State in that area and three keeping three million displaced people right along the Turkish border.
▶ 1:16:55I saw them living in tents there with sufficient with the help of US assistance and other international assistance uh to stay there rather than flood into Turkey and on into Europe. So he was in essence uh although on the terrorist list working for some of the same goals we had we didn't have direct contact with him but we had indirect through NOS's and assistance agencies.
▶ 1:17:18You also have you touched on around the edges of this. Do you have concerns about the continued centralization of government power in Syria?
▶ 1:17:27Yes, very much.
▶ 1:17:29Also, is is Ahmad al-Sharah um following the conditions of the recent ceasefire with the Syrian Democrat forces?
▶ 1:17:37Uh it's too soon to tell. As I said, it depends on the element. The Ministry of Interior people, I've heard from all sides, including the Kurdish, have been working well and they're the ones who are inside Kurdish cities, Haka and others. the Ministry of Defense and their Army troops. They're a mixed bag. We've heard from my colleagues here uh who uh what the origins of some of them are and we know them from 2019.
▶ 1:18:01And the worst problem is, as we saw in the films, these tribal fighters uh and they need to be uh brought under control. They've been quiet over the last few days, but that needs to be watched closely. I would say so far uh the agreement is holding uh and all sides including the international community are all pressing both sides to adhere to it and that's good if everybody talks in with the same uh message.
▶ 1:18:25Okay, thank you Miss Manza. How did I say that right Miss Manza? Is that correct? Nobody ever gets buret right either. So um how can the United States trust or partner with Syrian government forces to counter ISIS Iranian operations and influence
▶ 1:18:42um you know after having the insider attack against US forces in December in Palmyra. I mean I think it it showed the inconsistencies of these forces. I mean I there was a for a member of the security forces that stopped a suicide bomber from going into Aleppo that was supposedly targeting a church. So, I do want to say the inconsistency um and and and I think it's premature to be partnering with these forces to fight ISIS. I think the US should continue with the SDF.
▶ 1:19:10Um uh our partners who have never seen an insider attack um as we continue to counter ISIS because as we're seeing with all this chaos, ISIS is rising again and we need to be very proactive in how um we approach that.
▶ 1:19:24Where are they getting their funding?
▶ 1:19:26Yeah, that's a very good question and um I My colleagues might have a better sense about that. But, you know, when I was in the northeast last April, um I asked um or a year ago, October it would have been and in 2024, I asked people in Raqqa, I speak Assyrians in uh the Cabra Valley, I everyone everywhere I was by myself oneonone said, "What do you do when you see somebody that's become an extremist in your community? Who do you go to? Like, is there an office?" And you know what every single person told me? Even in Raqqa, we just don't see that anymore.
▶ 1:19:56They had built a society in northeast Syria because they had built not that they were per me not they're perfect but but because they had built this social cohesion they had had these political dialogues with Arabs with Christians with with Yazidis with all the different religions ethnicities where where they had built this this cohesion among all the groups that just inside the their society they just weren't seeing their kids join ISIS and so to me this this military attack not only was it horrific the violence we've seen but it also has deepened sectarian tensions.
▶ 1:20:27Of course, we know Assad started those 60 years ago. Like the family has is is ruled minority against maj majority. They helped heal those in the northeast and now this attack is only making things worse and making it much more dangerous for all the people in Syria.
▶ 1:20:41I'm out of time, but uh ma'am, do you have any concerns about Russia's continued involvement in Syrian affairs? Yes or no?
▶ 1:20:48All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:20:50Thank you, Representative Burchett. Uh Representative Sherman, floor is yours. First want to comment on the chairman's comments on USID. I have no doubt that one quarter% perhaps of the money that USID spent in the divide administration was wasted. You know when I go to the grocery store at least one quarter% of the money I spend is also wasted.
▶ 1:21:16for the Trump administration to convince that to declare that they're incapable of running USID and eliminating that waste and fraud and abuse and instead terminate it may be responsible for three million deaths in the last year because we stopped fighting malaria, we stopped fighting HIV, AIDS, we stopped fighting tuberculosis.
▶ 1:21:43And even if you're only focused on America, every time one of those viruses infects someone abroad, it is a chance for the disease to replicate, mutate, and migrate back here.
▶ 1:21:58And that's why uh about 11 months ago today, I sat in this seat and showed a picture of Evan Anzu to Secretary Rubio when he said that no one had died as a result of the gutting of USID and I introduced him to the first child that he and Musk killed.
▶ 1:22:18Um focusing on the uh the issues uh today, I'm certainly concerned about the min the ethnic and religious minorities in Syria. Uh Dr. uh Enen, uh the National Defense Authorization Act provided for a conditional repeal of the Cesar Act.
▶ 1:22:44Uh within 30 days, the president under that repeal is due to submit a report to Congress certifying whether the Syrian government has committed itself to aligning with several US priorities. Among the the determinations is whether the Syrian government has made progress in providing security for religious and ethnic minorities, removing foreign fighters, particularly from senior government military positions, and investigating serious human rights massacres of religious minorities.
▶ 1:23:11uh if you were to submit that report today, how would you assess the Syrian government's fulfillment of these
▶ 1:23:18Thank you so much for the question, Congressman. Of course, um I I can name three quickly that that this the government has not met and that they've not taken steps to remove foreign fighters. In fact, when the Kurdish woman's body was thrown from the building um in in Aleppo, it was apparently a foreign fighter who did that. Um upholding religious and ethnic minority rights in Syria. um clearly these um targeting of minority communities with violence and and we still continue to see that and smaller numbers in the coastal areas.
▶ 1:23:47Even so, there were four people killed over the the weekend. We saw um um some continued violence that would not make that threshold. And of course, the March 10th agreement, you know, I don't think people most people understand, but the last two months of the year, the Kurdish leaders couldn't even get a meeting with Damascus to talk about integration.
▶ 1:24:06And when they did have conversations, they were always about how to integrate the SDF in or how and the next thing after that was going to be energy and and yet they were never really talking about how to integrate the government in. And I it almost felt like a setup and and I would talk to the US government and then I talked to them in the northeast and say like why isn't
▶ 1:24:25I'm going to try to to squeeze in one question. One
▶ 1:24:28thing that every government has to deal with is the degree to which you have regional uh autonomy. In our country, we call it states rights. And clearly, when you have a Kurdish area uh that is relatively well wellrun, uh the regional autonomy uh ought to be uh provided. Uh Turkey has historically u been uh Shara's number one source of aid.
▶ 1:24:59um ha has Turkeykey's influence on uh the new president of Syria uh been uh helpful or harmful and in particularly in particular has Turkey press the government of Syria to be particularly hostile uh to its Kurds. Dr. Carlin,
▶ 1:25:20thank you very much. Uh the Turks obviously have an outsized role in where Syria is today and where it is going and they of course have a certain interest in that they want a unified Syria. Um I think there have been examples where they have played a more helpful and a more unhelpful role visavv president Shara they have tried to get him more support both regionally and globally and I think they've probably played a role in some of the US decision making as well.
▶ 1:25:50What would be useful now is frankly if they could be supportive of these integration efforts and also look at their own issues with their own Kurdish population and try to make progress on that front as well.
▶ 1:26:06Thank you, Mr. Sherman. Thank you for your acknowledgement that US A does have issues. We agree on that much. I would just simply say it's different if you go to the grocery store, you're spending your money. When the government's working through USAD, they're spending the money of the people. And I know you recognize that as well. Uh and they were wasting a lot of money of the people. I just gave one example in Syria, $10 million in meals, one program alone.
▶ 1:26:32But they were doing other things like transgender job fairs in Bangladesh for $850,000 and other just fraudulent and wasteful things. And that's why they no longer Let's say that to the three million people who've died in the last year.
▶ 1:26:47And I I would let you know that US aid programs uh many of the programs that were worthwhile, not waste like some of the things that I mentioned, they continue. It was brought up uh demining demining was brought up by some people. State Department has very specific weapons removal and abatement programs and those continue. There's demining going on across the globe.
▶ 1:27:07So, it's under uh a new command and control where there is zero diversion to things like drag shows and and real mission focus so we can continue to speak about it anytime. In that, we're going to recognize Representative Mills. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I get started, I want to just point out the fact as we sit in this room that there are continual ongoing atrocities that are occurring for the Iranian people.
▶ 1:27:3740,000 plus who've been killed by this brutal Islamic dictatorship. Those who have continued to fight in the streets against those who are armed with bravery that many of us can't imagine. You know, I want to just make sure the Iranian people, for those who can hear us, who aren't being subjugated and suppressed and brutally dictated over, that their voices are still being heard here in Washington. And I know that they're not looking for a better deal. They're looking for a better life.
▶ 1:28:07And we can only do that when we eliminate this Islamic dictatorship and return it back to what it was as the lion in the sun. So my heart goes out to the Iranian people and just know that we see that you want a brighter and better future. You know, there's a lot of things that's been mentioned today and I just want to bring up a few of them. You know, Miss Carolyn talks about us a oti. You know, I watch the Office of Transition initiatives waste more money than almost any other program.
▶ 1:28:35That being, let's just say, ramp up north, ramp up South, the regional Afghan municipalities programs, the ASI South Afghan stabilization initiatives. I've watched time and time again where tens of millions of dollars including that of Cigar's November 2011 John Sopco report where they made false claims by Commodonics International, DAI, Creative Associates and all these for-profit implementing partners who have done waste fraud and abuse to the tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars.
▶ 1:29:04So I would actually caution Miss Carlin about the fact that OTI has actually seen the greatest risk when it come to corruption, when it came to fraud and when it came to the Now, I can tell you having gone and as one of the first members of Congress to go after the Assad regime had fallen into Syria with my good friend Marlon Stzman who uh bravely went with me on this that we went with an open mind.
▶ 1:29:32Is Alshara the best that we could get? Is any of the former leaders that you know as Ambassador Jeffy's talked about the best that we could get? No, probably not. But it's the cards we're dealt with. It's what the people has chosen in many areas and I would caution that we have to at least allow the agreements and things that are being put in place to actually take hold.
▶ 1:29:56You know, we talk about making a ability to try and eliminate these generals or these leaders that were former HTS fighters. I think everyone can get behind that and support that. I think that we know that many of these are brutal fighters who have fought for al-Qaeda and others who are continuing to probably not follow the direction of the government to the letter of the law and still utilize a lot of the Islamic radicalization to make the decisions on their behalf.
▶ 1:30:23You know, we talk about the idea of eliminating, but we also have to be mindful of what happened in the debathification process of Iraq and how that led to additional insurgency and sectarian violence. We have to caution about the ideas of, oh, we can just set a constitution in place. As Mr. Jeff knows all too well, the 2005 Iraq constitution sets forth article 38, which is saying the government is mandated to protect the people. But whether or not that's enforceable is a whole different story. We also have to talk about inclusivity.
▶ 1:30:52Inclusivity is great. That's what we want. But let me remind you of article 76 of the Iraq constitution that its idea of inclusivity created sectarian democracy that hadn't existed since preapartid South Africa and northern This is what actually gave rise to the Iranian militias. This is what gave rise to people like Hide Alami, Kiskazali, Noriel Maliki and many others. And so we have to be very cautious to take our examples of what we did as America and failed the Iraqi people.
▶ 1:31:22what we did as America that failed with regards to Afghanistan and make sure we don't repeat that because Syria is important. It is one of the lynch pins for stabilization in the region. We have to understand though that there has been steps that's been made. You look at the captagon trade. You talk about how does ISIS and al-Qaeda and all the others make money. Captagon trade is one of the big ones. And guess what? Under Alshara, 350 million pills and 28 facilities have been eliminated.
▶ 1:31:48We talk about trying to work towards protecting Israel, building the relationship between Lebanon and Israel and Syria and Israel. Well, let's talk about the fact that it was under this current leadership that they stopped ISIS from actually trying and Iranianbacked militias from Iraq from transferring through Syria into Lebanon weapons that was going to be used against the Israelis.
▶ 1:32:10You know, we talk about this idea of inclusivity, but yet why don't we note the fact that there are Christians, Drews, Alawites, women who are actually part of this cabinet. Now, are there going to be bad decisions made? I think we know in America that there's bad decisions made in all cabinets.
▶ 1:32:28But what I'll just caution in saying all of this is simply as of February 10th today, Syria joined the anti-ISIS coalition, marking a new chapter in global security, looking at ways to progress forward and has worked with the United States against ISIS and also to help support regional security with Israel. So while we can understand the past of many of these individuals, we have to not look just at the past. We have to look at the future, the lessons learned, and making sure we have a free Syria that's going to help with stabilization across the region.
▶ 1:32:57With that, I yield
▶ 1:32:59Thank you, Representative Mills. Representative Keing, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I read with uh interest just a couple of weeks ago, an op-ed by former Secretary of State and CIA Director Mike Pompeo.
▶ 1:33:15Uh and I found it uh interesting that he was uh obviously taking umbrage with the US uh administration, the Trump administration's position uh you know regarding uh the relationship with the SDF and the Kurds.
▶ 1:33:33uh he mentioned in the article that uh you know evidently the US allowing al-Shaba to politically and militarily the political and military drubbing of the Kurdish SDF could be dangerous. He mentioned that, you know, the reports are coming out that President Trump was overly optimistic in his trust with al-Sharah.
▶ 1:34:01And he questioned the administration's lifting of sanctions because it'll remove leverage over Al- Sharah in that regard. He also mentioned that uh this action would undermine the security directly uh for the time being and indirectly which I thought was interesting term too uh in eroding the US's credibility that reaging on our commitment to the SDF we would lose the trust of a valuable
▶ 1:34:32loyal and proven ally. These are the words of former secretary of state for this administration, former CIA director. So, it gave me great pause to uh to read it from him. Uh and he certainly was very involved in this area in those capacities that he did have and served in the area.
▶ 1:34:56It also reminds me that uh in terms of waning of US credibility of our proven allies, just the pulling back of SIV visas and everything from those people uh in who risked their lives to help support our troops uh in other actions in the world when the US are deployed or in actions in Syria.
▶ 1:35:22Are these the kind of signals that the US is no longer a trusted trusted supporter of their allies? Uh so in in reading that I'd like to ask uh Dr. Carland. Uh these are concerns, broad concerns, and when they're voiced uh you know, a former high level Trump official.
▶ 1:35:46Uh you know, they they make all of us, including myself, who' been critical of him, uh sit up and take of this. Uh and the message was clear. You know, he couched something saying, "Well, if reports are true and but but the message is quite clear." So could you react to that,
▶ 1:36:08Congressman? These are real concerns and I agree with that. But it's important to remember the Assads broke Syria, right? For 50 plus years. They did everything they could to ferment distrust and insecurity. And frankly, that has also hit America as well. I'm sure we all remember very well the jihadi pipeline that would go from Damascus into Iraq to murder American service members.
▶ 1:36:35So what was handed to the new government about 13 14 months or so ago was a country that was devastated in a wide range of areas. So this is hard. I think the problems that former Secretary Pompeo highlights absolutely merit vigilance and I think frankly that's a lot of what we have seen from Congress and the administration to date. A willingness to really get involved in the politics of what's happening with Syria.
▶ 1:37:03It seems to me that there's just such a uh a rush to for somehow having another peace agreement uh uh there that he's overlooking what former secretary said quite uh you know strongly was it's overly optimistic and to take all the sanctions not using the sanctions as leverage going forward is a mistake.
▶ 1:37:26Congressman I I can't speak to the peace agreement. I can say though having the United States bringing the Israelis and the Syrians together is a good thing and there's no other country with the credibility to actually make
▶ 1:37:37No, I'm not denying the overall effort. I'm denying the way he's treating a in in the words of the secretary a proven loyal ally. And and when you look at what's happening uh with our proven loyal allies from Afghanistan, there's no question this will put our service men and women in danger going forward with future deployments. And I yield back.
▶ 1:38:03Thank you, Representative Keading. It is important to speak about the Syri the Caesar sanctions. Um, and I would just just remind everybody that the Caesar sanctions were specific. As lawmakers, it's important that we be specific. They were for systemic human rights abuses by the Assad regime.
▶ 1:38:25Now, it might make sense for a lot of us to say there should be other sanctions against Syria and entities that work with Syria, but it won't be right now because of what's going on with the Assad regime that no longer exists. and that's why those sanctions [clears throat] no longer exist. Now recognize Representative McCll.
▶ 1:38:44Hey, Mr. Chairman, thanks for holding this important hearing. Um, you know, look, we're we're focused on a lot of other areas of the world right now, but we can't let our eyes off the ball on Syria. I remember when I chaired the Homeland Security Committee, watching the rise of ISIS and the caliphate was one of the most terrifying things I've seen in my in my career and my lifetime.
▶ 1:39:06And the threat it posed to the United States and our national security interest was real as we saw foreign fighters entering Europe and the United States. So here we are back in Syria again. All roads lead to Damascus as said in the Bible. March 10th uh agreement was done in part to satisfy conditions made by the Congress to lift the Caesar Act sanctions.
▶ 1:39:35Um, unfortunately that document was not fully enforced. Uh, we saw an upscale in violence. I was in Israel and I talked to the Drew Shakespeare who showed me videos of decapitations similar to what I saw when I chaired Homeland a decade ago when ISIS controlled Syria.
▶ 1:39:58The SDF, who is an ally of ours, we worked with the SDF to defeat ISIS, has been under advancement and attack by Syrian forces uh as well. Most disturbingly, we saw prisoners from from the uh prison in eastern Syria being to god knows where.
▶ 1:40:21Thank God Sentcom stepped in and removed 7,000 remaining ISIS detainees to Iraq, but we do not have a full accounting of what happened to those who actually got out. That is a nightmare scenario from a national security perspective.
▶ 1:40:41I am pleased that there's a new agreement January 30th in response to this uptick in violence against ethnic minorities including Christians in response to the attacks on the Kurds and SDF. When the March 10th called for integration and normalization uh that was not happening.
▶ 1:41:00So now we have this new agreement January 30th an attempt to get back to normalization and integration between the ethnic minorities SDF forces and the new uh Syrian government. Um Miss Naen Mza uh can I ask you what is the status now of the implementation of the January 30th agreement? Thanks so much, um, Congressman, and I did get an update, um, this morning from northeast Syria.
▶ 1:41:28And of course, there's great hope that, um, that this agreement will be successful, but currently the Syrian government has not withdrawn troops and they need to by the end of the day. While the governor of Hassa was appointed and chosen, um, he's assumed his responsibility, but the government hasn't officially appointed him yet. Um, you know, they also apparently are appointing people to different positions without consultation with the SDF.
▶ 1:41:54We also, of course, continue to see the siege of Kabani, um, which is dangerous at this point. Um, and there's supposed to be an exchange of detainees and that isn't also being facilitated and there continues to be hate speech and rumors that are just adding a lot of tension to it. There is much hope that this is this could preserve what what they buil in these Kurdish areas because it's it it is supposed to integrate in both the inclusive government they've built which includes all the religious and ethnic minorities with half the leaders being women.
▶ 1:42:22So they would maintain that and they would keep their local security which as we talked about and of course um Congressman Mills your point was was well taken which is what do we do with this army? Well one of the ways we do it is by allowing local security. Um, so these folks that that are hardened sometimes, Islamists are not in these minority communities. And right now when I was traveling throughout parts of Syria, I I ran into the fact that almost every mayor I met was from Idlib or HGS and all the all the security was as well.
▶ 1:42:49And so I'm just saying that's not a that's not the the safe way forward in this um this way forward. I think one of my recommendations I made um is to create a mechanism to monitor the January 30th northeast Syria integration ideally with partners UK, France and Germany because they've said they would do that and make sure that they keep local officials because of course what can happen is everyone starts looking away and immediately they're all fired and new people are brought in and no one even notices um to keep that ethnic and religious diversity that's in the government right now.
▶ 1:43:19The Syrian security forces cannot enter these Kurdishi and Assyrian areas. And I think that we have not seen the Syrian government keep any of their deals with the SDF so far. But there is hope. I'll tell you what, they want this to work in the northeast. But I don't think I I fear that unless the international community in the US in particular is really strong on it, that that might not
▶ 1:43:40Well, my biggest concern in my five seconds is a return to the Islamic State. And I I am supportive of this new president. I want him to succeed, but I do not want to return to an Islamic state again in Syria. I yield back. And if I could just add for legitimacy for him himself, this helps Elshur for this to be successful. He needs legitimacy with these minorities and if it fails, it actually hurts him and will hurt the whole government, the stability of the whole government.
▶ 1:44:06Thank you, Chairman McCall. Now going to rec recognize Representative Titus.
▶ 1:44:14Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll say that I agreed with just about everything you said in your opening remarks, Mr. Chairman. That's why I wasn't in such a big hurry to take away some of the sanctions and the status of uh the president when he transitioned from so-called terrorist to so-called leader of all the Syrians. Uh I'd like to go back to the issue of Turkey if we could just a little bit.
▶ 1:44:38You know, Turkey still is and remains the most significant outside backer and continues to provide a lot of assistance and diplomatic support to Syria. But Syria is multithnic and multi-religious and you got Christians and Drews and Alawites and Armenians and Assyrians and of course the Kurds.
▶ 1:44:59So, I just have concerns about the ability of the president to be the leader of all Syrians with Erdigon having such a profound hatred for the Kurds so much that he stalls Sweden's ascension to NATO because of it. Uh, and I just don't know how he's supporting the government and how they can they can be kind of independent when it comes to decisions like that of the of the Turks. Dr. Carlin, you mentioned when you responded to Mr.
▶ 1:45:27Sherman's question about uh Syria's role, how could they be helpful, how have they been harmful. You talked about how they could be helpful, how they have been helpful, what they could do, but you didn't really talk about how they've been harmful. Could you kind of lay out some of that so we get the full
▶ 1:45:45Thank you very much for raising this, Congresswoman. Uh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I think you you've said it really well. It is very clear and has been for a number of years that the Turks do not want the Kurds to have meaningful political power representation in Syria. They absolutely did a whole lot including occasionally using violence uh to undermine say the the SDF as well. Uh and so I think we need to monitor that really closely.
▶ 1:46:11Um and frankly as we are monitoring the steps that the Turks are taking, what we should really focus on is what is uh President Charara trying to do. Is he trying to work with the Kurdish community, make them feel safe and secure and like they have a future in Syria or is he perhaps being lured by others in trying to trying to degrade that? I think that'll be a really important indicator for what we see as a uh the new Syria approach to all minorities, frankly.
▶ 1:46:43Turkeyy's never a very reliable ally of ours or anybody else's. But you feel confident that uh some of these agreements can persist into the future or provide stability for the not just Syria but for the region with Turkeykey's involvement being so great. uh having worked with the Turks a lot, I will say they are a complex ally in a whole lot of ways as you as you highlight and no doubt Ambassador Jeffrey knows this than just about anyone.
▶ 1:47:10Um that said, to the extent we have robust US efforts to shape the new Syria, we will be able to degrade the efforts of those who are actually trying to either undermine it or push it in a direction that doesn't lead to representation and pluralism.
▶ 1:47:31Are you confident that the January 30th uh agreement is going to last? you know, it ended fighting and that we got this phased integration of SDF and the administrative bodies of the Syrian state. Do you think that this is going to be a long-term arrangement or do you see the dynamics that we've just been talking about undermining its success?
▶ 1:47:53So, it's too early to tell, of course, but the words in this agreement are right. Right. And and frankly, this is among the very hardest things that I think Syria's got to figure out. What does it look like to have a unified country where you don't just have centralization in Damascus? Uh, but where folks feel comfortable and free and see see themselves as having a real future, even if that is going to look different than the past has looked for the the SDF. So, the words are right.
▶ 1:48:22I think now we've got to be vigilant and monitoring the extent to which it actually gets implemented. And this is a really good opportunity for Congress, frankly, given your involvement in this issue, really when you are seeing violations, being able to call them out and when we're seeing positive steps, being able to call those out as well.
▶ 1:48:39And how much do we have on the ground there in Syria from the US that can do all this monitoring and be involved?
▶ 1:48:46I'm so happy you raised that. We do not have a 247 US embassy yet, and that is actually the most important thing that we can do. You've heard from all of us about the dynamism and plasticity in Syria. We're all trying to understand it through visits, through talking to people, but there is nothing as valuable as having a bunch of smart American diplomats that are going to be there 247. We do have a US military presence. It has gone down over the last year.
▶ 1:49:13And with the removal of at least a couple thousand, if not more, uh, so far ISIS prisoners, you could imagine that presence going down as well. So, our ability to understand what's really going on is only going to get tougher if we don't have a lot of smart folks on the ground.
▶ 1:49:29Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:49:30Thank you, Representative Titus. Representative Bar.
▶ 1:49:34Thank you, [clears throat] Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tabler. During President Trump's uh first term and continuing in his second, the maximum pressure campaign against Iran's regime significantly weakened Tran's uh regional influence and demonstrated US resolve against malign actors, including Iran's proxies operating in Syria. Given President Trump's recent decision to lift broad sanctions on Syria with the hope that they may now distance themselves from Thran and rebuild under new leadership, how do you assess that strategy?
▶ 1:50:04What are the benefits of that strategy and how might lifting sanctions contribute to regional stability?
▶ 1:50:10Thank you for that question. Um well the if it works this will um push Iran and its the Islamic Republic of Iran and its influence through proxies um out of the Levant and back to Iran so they can decide whether they are a country or a cause to steal I believe Henry Kissinger's quote and I think that's very important from a strategic standpoint. But I was thinking uh when Representative Mills was making his statement about our bets and so on.
▶ 1:50:39I found and I've been dealing with Syria for over 25 years. I lived there for a long time so I know a little bit about the not necessarily diplomacy but about the working it from the ground. Uh Syria is a very very difficult information environment. Uh we're making big bets on uh something that is still uncertain and is it is currently under formation. Uh, and it hearkens back to that um Mark Twain quote that it's not the things you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's the things you know for sure that just ain't so.
▶ 1:51:09How many of us have seen maps put in front of us during the course of the Syrian war and then subsequently after it that assure us that certain parts in the territory inside of Syria is either under one uh government's control or another group's control and so on. And unfortunately and tragically, we had uh two US service members and then a translator killed in an environment that we thought was safe. And the people in my hometown don't want to deploy US forces to those areas.
▶ 1:51:38They want to deploy with reliable allies. And President Ashara is an ally in the making. They are the administration is trying to achieve this strategic goal in a very difficult environment with with more limited tools than we did in the past. Very little boots on the ground, not so much. So it is a difficult task.
▶ 1:51:57I think the goal of isolating Iran as much as possible is a is a obviously very important objective. Uh, Ambassador Jeff, uh, thank you so much for your extensive expertise and uh, and your and your uh, and your service to our country uh, in this very complex part of the world. Um, I I will never forget visiting with an IDF senior officer uh, in the Golan Heights. This is back in 2015.
▶ 1:52:23And he was showing to me a village right across the border in southern Syria that was at the time controlled by Jabad al-Nusra, al-Qaeda in Syria. And he referenced uh just to the west, southern Lebanon, uh controlled by Hezbollah, and and the threat of rockets coming into Israel. And then he he pointed to the northeast, he said, 100 kilometers, that's ISIS. And then he pointed due east. He said that's the Shiite militia in Iraq controlled by Iran.
▶ 1:52:52And then further east Iran, not to mention Hamas and the Houthis in the south. Very complex part of the world for Israel. Very uh difficult geography. Uh, in the aftermath of the Assad regime's collapse, uh, Ambassador Jeffrey, there was some optimism that Israel and Syria could explore a narrow security understanding aimed at stabilizing their shared border right where I was standing uh, back in 2015 and reducing the risk of escalation.
▶ 1:53:21Uh, I in recent months, however, momentum toward that outcome appears to be stalled. What is the present state of engagement, formal or informal, between Israel and Syria, and what key political or security conditions would be required for meaningful progress toward an
▶ 1:53:39If you could Thank you, sir. It's been a roller coaster ride uh of uh Israeli actions um back and forth broken by the US. Uh the latest was on January 9th in Paris. The two governments, Israeli and Syrian with a lot of US uh urging uh have agreed to set up a coordination committee to uh talk about security and other issues.
▶ 1:54:02This is preliminary to moving towards an agreement that would uh we believe acknowledge the 1974 formal ceasefire between the Assad regime and Israel. That's something both sides I think do want. Uh other issues such as the Golan Heights are going to be pushed off.
▶ 1:54:18But the thing that is so important is that Alshara has been fighting Assad and the Iranians for a decade and he is now doing his best with some success in blocking Iran to reestablish a foothold there and in particular as we heard earlier provide weapons flows to Hezbollah. So it's a very important Israeli security dimension to have somebody finally to their north that is not on the side of Thran.
▶ 1:54:46Uh and for all of his problems that is for the moment Al-Shara. That's one reason why there has been a calming of Israeli strikes and other activities and military movements in the south. It's not resolved yet. The Drews issue is very important to Israelis because of the Drews population with inside Israel. Uh but nonetheless, I'm more optimistic now, frankly, than I was uh a few months
▶ 1:55:08That's great to hear. Uh thank you, and I yield back.
▶ 1:55:11Thank you, Representative Bar. Representative Oeski.
▶ 1:55:14Thank you, Chairman Mast, uh for holding this important hearing. Thank you to all of our witnesses. I want to open by saying how proud that I am to represent uh an engaged Syrian diaspora in the Baltimore area. uh the stories and the experiences of that community remind me and should remind all of us that the struggle the struggle for dignity and for freedom in Syria also lives right here with all of us.
▶ 1:55:39We know that under the Assad regime, education became a tool of ideological control used to assimilate non-Arab communities and to erase their history. so-called nationalism classes glorified violence against anyone labeled an enemy of the regime. Teachers face threats from the Assad government um from armed opposition groups while extremists like ISIS imposed their own curricula.
▶ 1:56:07In short, education was militarized into yet another form of oppression. After Assad's fall, Syria's transitional government moved quickly to rewrite textbooks, and to remove Assad propaganda.
▶ 1:56:20Many Syrians welcomed this change, but some of the revisions also removed references to women, to love, to pre-Islamic culture, and to even human evolution, sending a chilling message to religious and ethnic minorities, including Christians who were already fearful of exclusion. Rebuilding a truly inclusive education system, in my estimation, is one of Syria's most important tests.
▶ 1:56:46More than 2.4 million children remain out of school, and another million are at risk of dropping out today. Syrian schools should teach a shared civic identity that embraces diverse thought without glorifying any faction, leader, or sect. History classes should acknowledge the suffering of all communities and emphasize the need for reconciliation. We can't replace one form of intolerance with another. Postconlict experiences elsewhere offer lessons.
▶ 1:57:15After the 1994 genocide, Rwanda's education reform emphasized shared citizenship over ethnic identity, helping to prevent classrooms from becoming a continuation of that war. Syria now stands at a similar crossroads. And education, I believe, can be one of the single most important levers that we use for lasting unity. Uh Dr. Carlin, I'll start with you.
▶ 1:57:39Can you talk to us a little bit about what steps you think the US and our international partners should be taking in support of Syria's transitional government to implement effective educational reforms that promote inclusivity and address some of the exclusion and the division that we've seen um in the past and that we've shared in these comments today.
▶ 1:57:58Thank you for raising this really important topic, Congressman. Uh I wholeheartedly agree with you in terms of the role that education can play and when we've seen it in places around the region in particular where it has done the exact opposite. Um the uh you know it seems to me that the things that um you all can particularly focus on is who is playing a leadership role in um in the education ministry and in key aspects of the government touching these issues and how are they best doing so.
▶ 1:58:29So looking at issues like textbook revisions, looking at how topics like sectarianism are are covered, looking at how topics like the history of Syria are are covered uh as well as well. So really thinking about who is in leadership there and how are they operating. Thank you.
▶ 1:58:48I appreciate that. and then to open it up to to the panel. Um if anyone wants to chime in with any lessons or models that you have seen from other post-conlict countries that you think we should be thinking about um in Syria.
▶ 1:59:01um specifically on Syria, I believe that uh the current education minister has at least some Kurdish background. Uh and what we saw in this 29 U January agreement between the Damascus government and the SDF were uh among other things uh a good deal on the educational situation that the uh degrees and the educational experiences that the Kurds have made over the past uh essentially 15 years when they've been separate from Damascus would be
▶ 1:59:31acknowledged. So we have to watch that closely. more generally having been sent off by uh the White House and you folks to do the exactly what you said in a half a dozen countries it's a real problem sir uh look at what we are debating now in the United States about these very issues that you raised think how we would feel how this house would feel if somebody came in from the outside and said look this is how you are to think about women this is how you are to think about uh this issue this is how you
▶ 2:00:01think about uh uh very sensitive questions of minorities, of refugees, of dare I say it, immigrants. Uh regardless of where you come down on that issue inside America, you wouldn't be happy at people from the outside.
▶ 2:00:17There are general principles we should underline particularly with other Arab states so that we all speaking with one voice and that is do not oppress minorities, do not exclude them, do not do things like not allow them to use their language and so forth. And these things we are able to do.
▶ 2:00:37But whenever we get into more details and more directive uh missions, and I've been sent on a number of them, boy, I I'll never forget I had a billion-dollar program to teach the Iraqi police to do community policing and deescalation. And what they told me was, "We want to go out to the range. When the military was running this, we were shooting all the time. Why are you guys talking about?" And this is the kind of cultural problems you get.
▶ 2:01:02And I appreciate that. I know my time is expired, but I hope that we learn that lesson both in our work in Syria, but also that we remember that here um as we think about our own histories in the United States and we keep that as part of our curricula. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 2:01:14Thank you, Representative Kim.
▶ 2:01:16Thank you, Chairman Mass. And I want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today. On January 29, Syrian President Elsharah met with Russian President Vladimir Putin in a reportedly friendly meeting with both sides signaling intentions to deepen bilateral Russia was a key enabler of the Assad regime's atrocities during the Syrian civil war and its resource strains from its campaign against Ukraine
▶ 2:01:47contributed to weakened Syrian air defenses and the Assad regime's collapse. Since then, Russia has continued providing Syria with oil via sanctioned vessels and grain supplies stolen from occupied Ukraine. In exchange, Syria has permitted Russia to retain access to its key military bases as Representative uh Joelson previously mentioned. Mr.
▶ 2:02:13Jeffrey, in light of its diminished military presence and leverage in Syria, how is Russia attempting to reposition itself militarily, economically, or diplomatically with the new Syrian
▶ 2:02:28Um, you're absolutely right, Congresswoman. Russia is trying actively to maintain first of all its bases which are a logistical center for its operations further to the south in Africa. Uh secondly, there is a long tradition of ties between
▶ 2:02:45uh Syria as a whole and Russia. Russia has $20 billion in investments in Syria. There are 35,000 Syrians who've been educated in Russia. one of them being Maha Al-shara, the brother of the U president uh who for many years uh was a medical doctor in Russia.
▶ 2:03:05Uh so there are very deep ties and the Russians don't want to lose them because they're trying to maintain a hold on their position in the region as long the most important thing is we do not want to see Russia dealing with Iran in Syria or any place else. That's a red line for us and it should be for Alshara. Secondly, we want to watch carefully what Russia is trying to do with that government, including sanctioned oil and other things.
▶ 2:03:34There's plenty of other oil that Alshara could get. Uh but finally, part of the problem is that both the Turks and the Israelis, and we haven't talked too much about this, but they have a kind of uh tension between them, and both sides kind of want the Russians there as a sort of buffer. Uh so it's hard to convince al-Shara to throw them out. Uh I don't know exactly where the administration is.
▶ 2:03:56What I know if they want to do that, that would be low on the list of priorities after taking care of minorities, after fighting ISIS, after fighting Iran, after doing six other things. Uh I think that we're stuck with the Russians for a while. I
▶ 2:04:10Right. Thank you. You know, I want to follow up on uh Rep. Bar's questioning earlier on Israel. Um Mr. Jeffrey, can you can you talk about the the the principal obstacles to achieving a lasting agreement between Israel and Syria and how can the US bridge the gap?
▶ 2:04:27Uh, it's a very good question. I was in Israel some time ago and I spent much of my time talking with uh members of the government and others u more on the right than on the left in Israeli politics uh on their great concerns. We have to understand that after uh September after October 7th uh Israel went through a huge horrific transition far worse in many respects than us after 9/11.
▶ 2:04:56They do not want to make any mistakes in their near abroad because they made a huge one with Hamas and Gaza. Uh so they look at Lebanon, they look at Syria uh through that same lens and I understand that and sympathize with it. Nonetheless, at the end of the day, the goal is to keep ISIS and Iran out of Israel's north. Uh they have no real choice other than al-Shara. The rest of the region is supporting him. The US is supporting him. The Europeans are supporting him.
▶ 2:05:25Uh, and I think gradually, it's why I know I'm sounding too optimistic here, which I haven't been in other appearances before this committee, but I think gradually we're moving in the right direction, uh, with the Israelis and Alshara, uh, and even with the Israelis and the Turks. So, that's a tougher issue. Thank you.
▶ 2:05:42Uh, I want to get to Saudi Arabia quickly. On February 7, Saudi Arabia and Syria signed a multi-billion dollar investment deal, including a launch of the lowcost joint airline and major telecommunications project that marks one of the largest foreign direct investments in Syria since the repeal of the scissor act uh sanctions last uh December.
▶ 2:06:04Saudi officials noted that the agreements would be ready to implement contact contracts rather than So can you talk about any provisions if there are in these contracts that raise concerns for US national security or regional uh stability and the Congress that Congress should be aware of.
▶ 2:06:29it is the stated repeatedly stated policy of the Trump administration and in various degrees other ones to work by with and through our partners and have them put up a lot of the money for some of these reconstruction issues be it in Syria, be it also in Gaza. So I think the administration is happy with the Saudis. It's happy with the guties. is happy with the Egyptians and other countries that are uh reaching out to uh Damascus uh along with Turkey.
▶ 2:06:56Of course, uh uh we're we're doing very little in that regard, although we're ready to have business deals. Uh but I think that the administration is quite open to uh regional states playing a big role in securing the peace after, as I said, the defeat of ISIS and Iran.
▶ 2:07:16Thank you. My time's up. I yield back. Thank you,
▶ 2:07:19Representative Almo.
▶ 2:07:20Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here. Last year, the Syrian people marked the fall of the brutal Assad regime. Uh, this was a historic moment after years of repression and war and a moment of hope for minority communities in Syria and the diaspora, including the Kurdish Americans that I represent in Rhode Island. But while Syria's future holds promise, the road ahead is fragile and unfinished. ISIS remains a threat. Millions of Syrians still rely on humanitarian aid to survive.
▶ 2:07:51And the country must rebuild trust with its neighbors and the international community. For Syria to realize its democratic aspirations, it must become a nation where religious and ethnic minorities safely coexist and enjoy full representation in their new government. The new Syrian government has promised to lead on behalf of all Syrians. Yet, violence against minority communities exists. Attacks against the Drews and the Alawaitu communities continue.
▶ 2:08:20A Greek Orthodox church was bombed in June. In January, fighting between Syrian government forces and Kurdish fighters killed and displaced civilians. After two weeks of violence, the Syrian government and the Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces announced a ceasefire to integrate Kurdish fighters into the national army. President Shara granted citizenship to Syrian Kurds and established Kurdish as a national language of Syria.
▶ 2:08:44These are meaningful steps towards inclusion, but the violence that preceded these actions underscores the fragility in this newfound peace. Uh Dr. Carlin, how can the United States support its compliance with this ceasefire and push the Syrian government to continue moving forward with truly inclusive governance?
▶ 2:09:04Thank you very much for that question, Congressman, and I would wholly agree with uh your diagnosis of the picture, the major challenges ahead. Um, and I also appreciate how you highlighted that Damascus has taken some really important steps lately in terms of citizenship, in terms of language, in terms of uh most notably I think for your question, saying it will penalize those who try to incite and divide. And so I think what we all really need to do is to monitor when those things happen.
▶ 2:09:32Monitor when there is violence, uh monitor when there are uh efforts to expose riffs with minorities, religious groups, etc. and then see what steps is the government going to take. We have seen some really positive case studies. So following some violence, we've seen efforts to investigate a couple hundred folks. We have seen some trials.
▶ 2:09:52It's not enough at all, but it is uh it it represents meaningful steps and we need to make sure that that keeps happening and if not then we need to really put some serious pressure on the Shara government. um Syria under an authoritarian strongman that doesn't uh allow for pluralism isn't going to be a great partner to the United States.
▶ 2:10:14Yeah. Well, speaking of pressure, you know, when Congress repealed the Caesar sanctions last December, we made clear that the inclusion protection of ethnic and religious minorities was going to be a major priority and frankly non-negotiable. But we're in the situation we are now where we see meaningful progress but not enough to guarantee those rights and freedoms. Uh Dr.
▶ 2:10:37Carlin, do you think the the threats of reinstating the Caesar sanctions serve as an effective deterrent uh to ensure uh those commitments are upheld for ethnic and religious uh uh minority protection? And what are some things that we in Congress can do uh and that we should consider to keep Syria moving Thank you for highlighting that important point. Uh I do think the effort to remove the sanctions was the right step.
▶ 2:11:06Syria is in this dynamic moment and allowing for investment is important so that folks can see a future for themselves in in a new Syria and thus don't uh don't don't look elsewhere. Um you know I think I would look really closely at what happens with this SDF integration. Um this is a very very new effort of course um recently brokered.
▶ 2:11:28Uh we did see some initial violence of course uh earlier this year um that has largely dissipated but not entirely. And I think what we want to see uh in particular is uh the extent to which the SDF is welcomed and integrated into the military and then who's going to be responsible for the Kurds in in those areas. So, I don't know that threats to reimpose are necessary at this moment.
▶ 2:11:55However, I think reminding folks of what a high priority this issue is for this Congress and for this administration is exactly right.
▶ 2:12:05Well, well, thank you for that and and the importance of of protecting those ethnic and and religious minorities is, you know, a paramount uh focus and, you know, with the help of uh leaders like you and others, uh we'll continue to press on. Uh, with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:12:21Representative Davidson.
▶ 2:12:23Uh, thank you, Chairman. Thanks, witnesses. I really appreciate you being here and the attention you've given to this vital region. Uh, and I think it's great timely hearing. Um, I often think of the wisdom of Ronald Reagan's famous saying, trust, but verify. But increasingly, particularly in Syria, I think of a saying of my own, don't hope no. Uh, you know, we hope things are great.
▶ 2:12:47Um but we we haven't done enough Um I I appreciate you guys coming today and giving us some um some of the know what's going on on the ground. So Miss Manz Miss Manza uh could you highlight what is going on on the ground particularly with respect to religious freedom but you know the state of security on the ground uh in Syria today? What do you know?
▶ 2:13:12I know that um a lot of the religious and ethnic minorities are are um are afraid of the violence that they've seen in the polling that is done at the end of the year you know showed high higher satisfaction among Sunnis than minorities but it's interesting because on social cohesion it was actually even the Sunnis had a low score on that because I think everyone wants to live in a cohesive peaceful place and right now we've seen a lot of violence of course in March massive violence against the Alawites in in July massive violence against the Drews and But we've can seen those those areas continue
▶ 2:13:42to have violence and Christians continue to also report threats and and of course this terrible violence just recently against the Kurds. But I just want to throw out that you know the areas that Turkey invades and still occupies because Ter Turkeykey's not leaving they just announced yesterday any of the areas. They have a fing they have tear wrestle line and then those areas usurp reports are so damning.
▶ 2:14:04Um like for instance you know um they continue to target religious minorities especially Yazidis for rape, assassination, kidnapping for ransom, confiscation of used property um desecration of cemeteries and places of worship. The other report um just from the 2000 from last year their latest report on Syria that these forces these Turkishbacked Syrian National Army in the north terrorized Kurds and religious minorities with extortion, detention, torture.
▶ 2:14:30So this is the kind of stuff that's been going on daytoday without really any international outrage. And I think as we look at all of Syria, we need to call these areas out.
▶ 2:14:38Yeah, thank you. I mean when you think about northeast Syria, it wasn't exactly secure and stable under Assad. But I will say, you know, I heard from a lot of religious minorities while they couldn't defend Assad overall, they could say, "At least we felt like Assad protected kind of everybody religiously, except maybe in the Northeast." The Northeast hasn't been under control, hasn't been under control um under the new government. It doesn't it doesn't really seem to be the case. So, my heart goes out to persecuted Christians in particular.
▶ 2:15:07And clearly, United States needs to display the strength to keep ISIS down and out. uh but but the same uh fighting just goes on in a in a sort of endless way uh in that region and when I think about the legal authorization for US presence uh in Alte and more broadly what's the strategic justification to continue operating there Mr. Jeffrey?
▶ 2:15:32Uh that's a very interesting question. Congressman Alamp uh was part of the um uh US deisis mission, but there were very few ISIS in the region. There were no Kurds there. It's down on the uh trib, as you're looking at it, Iraq, Jordan, and Syria.
▶ 2:15:54Uh it was the Obama administration that moved forces in there with local uh Syrian opposition forces that stayed with us up until uh uh just some months ago. Uh now they've been integrated into the Syrian army. Its purpose was anti-Iranian, but we never said that. Uh it blocked a major route for Iran, as you're looking at the map, to move from Tehran to Baghdad to Damascus to Beirut.
▶ 2:16:23uh and it was very important. The Russians uh speaking for the Syrians and the Iranians constantly pressed us to leave there and we didn't. Now, at this point, I don't think it's serving much of a purpose, but I think the administration should speak for
▶ 2:16:38Well, I think when you when you highlight that, you know, obviously Iran doesn't just act on their own, they act through proxies. And that's one of the deficiencies of the O1 AUMF, isn't it? I mean, not everyone in the region, even ISIS, isn't truly an affiliate of al-Qaeda. They have their own rivalries, but clearly the Iranianbacked militias groups that are on militia groups that are on the ground aren't affiliates of al-Qaeda.
▶ 2:17:01Would at some point it merit giving the administration the legal authority and flexibility uh to designate true enemies of our country as enemies of our country with a more modern authorization for force.
▶ 2:17:17That's a legal issue. I think the administration and the past administrations, Democrat and Republican, felt that they had enough authority to go after both the Iranian proxy groups, be they Hamas, the Hashabi, the Houdis and Iranian IRGC itself and ISIS and its offshoots. As we know, al-Nusra, which then became Hayat, Al Sham, and has now become much of the government of Syria, was on various terrorist lists by us and the UN up until very recently.
▶ 2:17:45A good point. It it shifts quickly. Unfortunately, my time is expired and I will follow up with you guys with some written questions and I yield back.
▶ 2:17:52Representative Stanton.
▶ 2:17:53Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for this important and timely hearing. The fall of Bashar al-Assad's regime represented the end of one of the most oppressive governments in modern history for more than 50 years. It was a regime responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Syrians, the use of chemical weapons against civilians, the displacement of millions of refugees during its decade decadesl long rule.
▶ 2:18:17Its cruelty extended beyond its borders, including allowing Iran to traffic weapons through Syria and and to its proxies Hamas and Hezbollah. And the fall and its fall represent one of the most significant political shifts in mi in the Middle East in decades. We must recognize the courage of the Syrian people who made this possible, who flow back over the borders to see their homeland for the first time in years in the immediate aftermath.
▶ 2:18:41They created a chance to help Syria rebuild on a foundation of stability, pluralism, and representative governance. That's why I supported the the removal of the Caesar Act sanctions. These sanctions serve their purpose in pressuring the Assad regime, but risk strangling Syria's economy when it could be rebuilding and As Syria rebuilds, the US must provide strategic support condition on the actions of Syria's transitional government under Ahmad al- Sharah.
▶ 2:19:10First and foremost, we must ensure the protection of Syria's Syria's minority communities. Syria is not a monolith. It's a diverse nation of Arabs, Kurds, Drews, Alawites, Christians, and others who have coexisted for generations. These communities are now vulnerable. All of branches that aim to integrate minorities such as establishing Kurdish as a national language and promising to settle the civil educational rights of the Kurdish community must be upheld. Dr.
▶ 2:19:38Carlin, the fighting between the Syrian army and Syrian defense forces was deeply troubling. I'm glad the two reached a ceasefire agreement, a new deal on integrating the SDF into the Syrian army. But the two weeks of violence highlights highlights the hard work ahead. Can you explain to us the agree the agreements made under the New Deal and what specific metrics for success or failure Congress should look to in the future? Congressman, thank thank you for highlighting this important issue.
▶ 2:20:08Exactly as you highlight, the SDF was a critical counterterrorism partner uh as we fought ISIS and has been responsible for many thousands of ISIS prisoners and and ISIS uh family members as well. Completely agree with you that the violence we've seen with the SDF and the Syrian military has been pretty pretty awful. It is good that it is over and uh and and it now needs to continue being over. There is an agreement that has been pulled together as you highlight.
▶ 2:20:37It is a very very fresh agreement. Um and I think look the words in the agreement are right. The issue will be the implementation. I think what is especially important frankly for the US to think about is how do you help the Syrian military and the Syrian government and how do you help the SDF understand their different roles and their different relationship going forward. Right? So the the SDF has governed a chunk of territory for a very very long time.
▶ 2:21:05Uh that is not going to be the case uh for a number of reasons in Syria going forward. if you're going to have more centralization and Damascus is able to extend its sovereignty throughout its country, but what does it look like to make sure that the SDF and that the Kurds feel like they have a future in that country? So, it's it's the words on the paper that are important, but I would say the spirit is in particular where the United States has such a vital role to play.
▶ 2:21:29Thank you very much. Uh, we must maintain strict oversight of detained ISIS fighters. Thousands of ISIS combatants remain in detention facilities in northeast Syria. Syrian government recently took over the responsibility of Al Roge and Alhol. Um, Dr. Carlin, is the Syrian government capable of taking on this critical responsibility? Is the Iraqi government capable of securely overseeing ISIS detainees that are being moved from Syria to Iraq?
▶ 2:21:56Congressman, I think this is one of the most important things for us to focus on and to to look at. Iraq does offer a degree of stability that Syria does not. I assume that that is probably why the Pentagon is moving thousands of uh ISIS prisoner prisoners to there. Um we need to see what the Syrian military is capable of doing.
▶ 2:22:16Uh the transfer uh from the SDF to the Syrian military was a little bit bumpy to put it to put it lightly, but to date they appear to be trying diligently to take this responsibility. I think this is an area where the US military presence in Syria is going to be important as the government consolidates its power and its capabilities for doing so.
▶ 2:22:38Thank you very much. Um, chairman, I'm going to run out of time so questions for the record. I just want to note on a personal note that uh, Congressman Joe Wilson has been such a leader on this issue and his leadership particularly on the Caesar Act has affected many of us including me across the aisle. I just want he's not here, but I want to recognize Congressman Wilson for his critical leadership as it relates to this important relationship with the United States with Syria. Thank you.
▶ 2:23:00Thank you, Representative Stannon. Representative Self.
▶ 2:23:04Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. This has been a fascinating hearing. Uh I'm I'm just a soldier and I won't go into details, but dealing with the uh the issues in the Middle East and and Islam, uh embassy in Egypt, uh IDF with Israel, Afghanistan, Bosnia, the Bosnjaks, uh Central Command, J5, there's an old saying in the Middle no war without Syria, no peace without
▶ 2:23:34Syria has been a central part of this area and the warlike nature of this area for centuries, for centuries. Um, we've heard some we've heard basically two separate views here in this briefing. I'm glad I've been so late in in the order here.
▶ 2:23:58Um I chair the Europe subcommittee on this on this full committee and we've already had a a hearing on Turkey and basically the title was whether goeth Turkey uh and I think that we've had some discussion about Turkey but I I want to go back um in several areas. The one viewpoint that we've heard is and I'll ask this question first. What is success?
▶ 2:24:29Because we've been debating unknowingly what is success for Syria in this very hearing in the last hour and a I've heard I think the two gentlemen take the point of view that if we make Al Galani renamed successful, Syria will be successful. Well, we Americans tend to say once we depose a tyrant, things will be better.
▶ 2:24:57Then the other point of view that we've heard, the other worldview, I'll put it that way, that we've heard is that the desperate minorities, the Christians, the Kurds, the Drews, the Alawites, and the Acidities have a play in this. And so what is success in Syria is going to be my point. Yes, there is a vacuum of Iranian proxies. Uh we have destroy destroyed that road to the sea.
▶ 2:25:24Uh we and the Israelis have destroyed that road to the However, right now in Turkey, uh they are increasingly an Islamic The chief opponent to Erdogan is in He will not get out prior to the elections.
▶ 2:25:44I don't believe Erdogan is overturning the secular uh state that Adaturk set up and I think that that is going to set up between Turkey and Israel uh a future conflict. I don't know how that works. So, uh Ms. Menza, what do you believe the out of?
▶ 2:26:10Oh, before I go to the question, uh, this SDF integration that I've heard so much about, I understand there's a question about whether or not it's going to be unit integration or individual integration. Look, we had that f same question in World War I and Persian refused to let Americans be individually put into French and and British. So that to me is is a key question, Dr.
▶ 2:26:37Carlin, but we'll set that aside for just a And I want to ask you, Miss Mensah, what is going to be the outcome depending on the SDF integration for the minorities in their area.
▶ 2:26:52So this um agreement being successful is huge for all of Syria, not just the northeast, because I think it's going to set a precedent even for SUA. And I think I mentioned earlier that SUA they've clamped down even the last few days and and let no one um they they say you can leave but you can't come back and there there have been additional deaths there.
▶ 2:27:10So so I think if we could see a piece in Northeast where um they integrate them as brigades where where we're able to see local security local um uh governance and keep um these um mixed um Syrian security guards out. we could have that that kind of piece that we were talking about. I think the thing about Turkey that's important to understand and I just explained how horrific the conditions are for religious minorities in the places where Turkey controls completely that are run by the Syrian National Army.
▶ 2:27:40I know Alshar had promised to take a frame as soon as he was um in fact while HTS was taking Aleppo I was promised when he took Damascus that the first thing he do would free a freen and he tried to like three times and I think Turkey will not give it up. So I think first of all, Erdogan is is not constrained by the constitution in Syria. So in in Turkey, he's constrained by some some some elements of the law that that keep him from not doing everything he could do. But in Syria, that's not the case.
▶ 2:28:08So we've already seen, of course, this um deep relationship with with um weapons systems, equipment, logistical support, training of officers. I mean, I just think that that Turkey is clearly very integrated into Syria at this point in time. Yeah, I think they want to with Iran being down and out. I think they want to play a outsized role I think was your word in the Middle East. I'll leave with this. UNIFIL is withdrawing most of their forces I believe by 2027. We've lifted sanctions.
▶ 2:28:37We're pulling UNIFIL is as worthless as UNIFIL was, they were a UN force. Uh I have more, but my time is up. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:28:47Thank you, Representative Self. Representative Jipal.
▶ 2:28:50Thank you, Mr. chairman and I welcome the witnesses. Mr. Tabler, it's nice to see you. We both had a fellowship from the same institute back when we were young. Um, but it's great to see you here today. After decades of repression, and brutal conflict, the Syrian people are finally free of the Assad regime, a government that ruled through fear, violence, and systematic abuse, and marked by mass detention, torture, and the deliberate targeting of civilians, forcing millions from their home.
▶ 2:29:17Today, the emergence of a new government in Syria represents a powerful symbol of hope. It offers the possibility of rebuilding a country rooted not in terror, but in accountability, inclusion, and respect for Syria's diversity for families who have known nothing but war, and I have several of them in my district. This moment carries the promise of return, of reconciliation, and of recovery. But we also need to meet the moment with accountability and responsibility.
▶ 2:29:43And the new Syrian government must demonstrate through concrete actions that it will protect religious and ethnic minorities and uphold fundamental human rights. Syria's diversity is one of its greatest strengths and the safety of Christian, Alawite, Drews, Kurdish, and other minority communities will be a measure of whether this new government will truly break from its past.
▶ 2:30:05As we consider the future of US policy towards Syria, we also have to learn from the past and recognize that sustainable peace has to be built through dialogue and diplomacy, not punishment and isolation. And that's why I was so proud to co-lead with my Republican colleague Joe Wilson a bill to repeal the Broad Caesar Act sanctions on Syria, an action which has been taken to help ensure that the new government has the chance to succeed in delivering for the Syrian people.
▶ 2:30:31[snorts] Miss Carlin, you were recently in Syria with UNHCR and I know you met with numerous officials and organizations on the ground. Can you give us your assessment of the humanitarian situation within Syria and the challenges that that poses for the interim government?
▶ 2:30:48Thank you very much for that question, Congresswoman. Um the humanitarian situation there is almost mindboggling. Uh when you drive a few minutes outside of Damascus, you see skeletons of buildings. Um, I mean, just tr truly shattered for as far as the eye can see. But you also see kids with backpacks and families returning.
▶ 2:31:10Uh, I met some families that were returning that hadn't been there for a decade and they were coming home and they weren't really sure what home would look like, but they wanted to try to rebuild. They wanted to find hopefully security and livelihood. There's so much to go.
▶ 2:31:24It's why frankly the uh leadership you and others have shown in lifting the sanctions is so important because that's kind of what's going to unlock this this sort of this reconstruction as Syrians return to their homes either from other countries or from having been internally displaced as they start contributing to their economy and see a future. We can see a difference in Syria, which is important regionally of course, but also for US national security interests.
▶ 2:31:50And you know, while we repeal the Caesar Act sanctions in the 26 NDAA, um sanctions could be reimposed if the Syrian government doesn't make adequate reforms. And so I guess I'm wondering if you can talk about the lingering I I think we need to get ready for that um by talking in part about the lingering impacts of sanctions of US sanctions on the humanitarian landscape and what impact it would have if we suddenly reimpose those sanctions on this uh on the Syrian people. I
▶ 2:32:20mean it's a country that needs at least $200 billion in reconstruction and 90% of the people are living in poverty. So, uh, if sanctions are on, I think we can assume that Syria will not be able to prosper and frankly folks are going to find alternatives and there are often not going to be the kind of alternatives that will meet US national security interests. That said, I of course completely agree with you that we have got to have accountability. We've got to monitor the extent to which the government is making pledges and actually following through on those.
▶ 2:32:50We've seen some important announcements in recent weeks, particularly visav the Kurds um in terms of inclusivity, in terms of punishing those who uh who are inciting to violence, etc. Those are the right words. Now, we've got to see are they actually going to follow through with them.
▶ 2:33:07And I appreciate you're raising how important the humanitarian assistance continues to be. Um Mr. Tabler, I wanted to ask you about Jordan and Lebanon and refugees. Um both of them have keen interests in seeing Syria's new government succeed to enable thousands of refugees still in each country to return home and ensure that the respective borders are better secured and open to trade again.
▶ 2:33:30How is it how can the US best support and facilitate the safe and voluntary return of Syrian refugees to their homes from neighboring
▶ 2:33:40Uh thank you, Representative J. Paul. Actually, it's it's a very good question what the US can really do. First of all, there are many Syrians who want to return and have returned and those the the people that return to Syria are the ones that feel safe.
▶ 2:33:52And so therefore, um it's going to be a little bit different. If you have an overwhelmingly, for example, Sunni base of refugees in Jordan, they might feel more safe going back to a Sunni uh le government in Damascus with uh as we've been talking about here today. If they are minorities, however, and they're hiding in Lebanon, they probably are not going to feel as comfortable going back. Uh that is also for a security reason. That's the initial on the on the surface. Deeper than that, it's the question is what are they returning to?
▶ 2:34:20And that gets us to the rebuilding uh of Syria and uh sanctions under the Caesar sanctions uh had a tremendous impact on Syria because it had secondary and other effects that prevented the reconstruction of Syria under the Assad regime for these crimes. Now, with its repeal, it allows for the potential um for Syria to receive these investments.
▶ 2:34:43However, it is not unconditional as you pointed out and the fact is is that the in my opinion that while this is a barrier, the real barrier here is if the Ashara government doesn't institute the kind of reforms both on a security level uh as well as on an economic and legal level to allow for these funds to flow back into the country, they will just evaporate as they did under the Assad regime when Gulf countries dump money into Syria.
▶ 2:35:07and people actually will not be able to rebuild substantially and we will not have a reenable ally going forward and that's something that the United States you ask a question about what we can do. I think we need to go back to the Ashara government uh with their neighbors and say okay what are the kind of changes you need to make today to make a better future.
▶ 2:35:26Thank you.
▶ 2:35:26Thank you. Very comprehensive answer and we have a lot of work to do but we appreciate all of you being here today. Thank you for your testimony.
▶ 2:35:32Representative Lawler.
▶ 2:35:34Thank you Mr. Chairman. Uh last year I worked alongside Chairman Mass and uh our financial services committee chairman Hill uh as we negotiate a package to update the Caesar sanctions on uh Syria to fit with the present period uh and the present leadership. Ultimately uh the Caesar Act was repealed as part of last year's NDAA.
▶ 2:36:00Um, but we did fight to include a mechanism for sanctions to be imposed if certain conditions are not met by al- Sharah and his government. Uh, Mr. Tabler, do you think this is an effective compromise to allow for the interim government to expand their economy while keeping the pressure on them as you were uh just alluding to with Miss Jipal?
▶ 2:36:24It's an excellent question. I think that it I think it has two levels. one the the way that the sanctions were repealed I think were quite rational and that the original reason for them being there and I worked with Ambassador Jeffrey on implementing these sanctions in in great detail uh during uh during COVID. So I think that lifting them was was was the rational thing to do. But the the problem that there are many other things in the Caesar sanctions that are of concern to the United States.
▶ 2:36:51And so therefore if those things if those benchmarks are not met, it is worth revisiting them because very frankly because the Ashar government cares about that, right? and they this is a major point of leverage over their behavior and right now nobody's here is talking about regime change or anything messy like that. We're simply talking about uh modifying the behavior of the Ashara government, its security forces and so on uh as it goes forward as a result concerning minorities and others.
▶ 2:37:21So to that end, what pressure can we put on El Shar's government absent Caesar? And to what extent do you see Syria's state sponsor of terrorism designation as effective leverage in
▶ 2:37:35Yeah. So that's a big one that's coming up. I think it is tremendous leverage. I think the the one immediate thing in the you know we're talking about very early implementation is concerning President Trump's engagement with um with Ahmed Ashara himself personally.
▶ 2:37:49So if we were if we're to look at this any communication between President Trump and Ahmed Ashara and I think this has been communicated that this agreement on the 30th of of January needs to be implemented because it concerns a very sensitive issue as concerns minority rights also strategic places where US forces are uh this this line needs to be uh enforced and I think the administration as well as Capitol Hill is prepared to do that.
▶ 2:38:14So Al Sharah continues to position himself as a moderate and pragmatic leader for Syria and given the alternatives that may be true. But you know even though he is often sending diplomats to DC and uh has visited the White House, he's still growing closer with Russia. There are concerns about that, not to mention obviously his past terrorist ties.
▶ 2:38:42Um, Mr. Jeffrey, do you view alur as an honest broker? Um, I mean, based on what he has done in the past few months, do you trust him or are you wary of his assurances?
▶ 2:38:59Um I'm weary, but I also have [clears throat] seen when we were working uh in the first Trump administration, uh key to much of what we're trying to do in Syria, which was not only to defeat ISIS, it was to get all of the Iranians out and to have a reconciled and uh uh peaceful Syria. Those were our three uh core goals.
▶ 2:39:25uh in all of them uh objectively what Alshara was doing in Idlib with Hayat Terrell Sham supported what we were doing. Now we couldn't give him orders or talk to him because he was on the terrorist list but uh we generally knew what he was up to fighting Assad uh cleaning the area from ISIS and as I mentioned earlier keeping three million internally displaced people who would have destabilized Turkey if they fled across the border. I was right there with them.
▶ 2:39:54I saw they were living in makeshift uh shelters and tents. Uh and so he was giving, you know, under the conditions of horror that I've seen in much of the Middle East. I thought Idlib was basically a uh a bright spot. Now, he did some bad things in Idlib. Uh frankly, our Kurdish friends did some bad things in their areas as well, but all in all, uh he's somebody that we've been able to work with. Let's just see what happens next.
▶ 2:40:22And the most important thing is executing this 29 January agreement.
▶ 2:40:27Now obviously there's been some positive steps with Saudi Arabia uh and others with economic investments which you know is critical to actually get this uh on the right track. One of the most important things has been the discussions between the US, Israel and Syria with respect to deescalation uh and intelligence sharing. uh and there are reports of upcoming talks to finalize uh this. Mr.
▶ 2:40:54Jeffrey, in your opinion, what would this type of security agreement mean for both Israel, Syria, and the region? Uh first of all, it would stabilize uh the rather rocky relationship between Damascus and Israel and uh probably end although they've pretty well settled down now Israeli military operations uh inside Syria which were quite extensive right after uh the Alshara government came to power.
▶ 2:41:21Uh I think it's important because again Israel's core interest is not having an Iranian proxy on its northern border and it doesn't have one now because Alshara rolled in and the Iranians had to retreat. As long as he can maintain Israel can maintain Alshara uh as a partner in that particular endeavor uh then I think that there's a basis for a relationship.
▶ 2:41:48But as we've talked about for the last two hours, uh Iran will come back in if the country starts falling apart. So it's not just not being nice to the Iranians, it's also being nice to the minorities to the degree that they don't start looking for allies because I've had several indications Iran is trying to get back in and find partners.
▶ 2:42:09Appreciate it. Thank you,
▶ 2:42:10Representative Fine.
▶ 2:42:13Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um you know, I approach this from a a different perspective. I'm going to give you all the chance to educate me a little bit today. Um, I generally believe that once a Muslim terrorist, always a Muslim terrorist. Um, that you don't engage in that sort of behavior just, you know, because you're trying to advance a political agenda and then all of a sudden you turn the other the other cheeks.
▶ 2:42:37Maybe I'm wrong and maybe people can engage in the most horrific acts, but then they were only doing it for for sort of inexplicable reasons. So, uh, Miss Manza, I I really want to ask you, there have been terrible things that have happened in Syria since he came to power. And, and my question to you is, do you believe the current president of Syria was in control of those events?
▶ 2:43:02Were these intentional events, or is he just not a sort of competent leader of the country? And so, these I I have no idea what's happening. I I I didn't know. They're just killing people um uh around me. Do you think he agrees or is incompetent? Which of the two?
▶ 2:43:21Thank you so much for the question. The difficult question, Congressman. I think the important thing is to note is the facts that um Alshara sent these troops into SUA after they had already committed atrocities in the coastal areas. Um they sent them into the northeast even though they had a history um and and there was this growing hate speech against the Kurds. So they had to know that there was going to be violence. So I just think the threshold for allowing violence is should be unacceptable to the US and there needs to be a pushing back of this isn't allowed.
▶ 2:43:51The fact that these that horrific video you watched and even more happened days ago and then right after that we see an economic deal being signed you know with the Syrian government and and Ambassador Bareric. It's that's not the way to reward this kind of behavior. So, I think that if in fact, let's presume that that President Alshar is a pragmatist and and his troops aren't quite there yet. A pragmatist will bend when they have pressure.
▶ 2:44:20So, we're not doing him any favors by giving him a high five, by giving him unconditional support, by trying to to raise him in the international community when you look at these um atrocities that his troops are
▶ 2:44:31All right. So, I so I haven't gotten a real sense. Again, it's either I'm incompetent and so these people do this and I'm not really in control or wink wink nod nod, I was a terrorist, I still am a terrorist. Um, and I'm killing people. But let me let me let's try to put it in terms of something that people may be able to wrap their head around because look, I was in Israel last summer.
▶ 2:44:56I I didn't think anyone could care less about the Jews, which I am one, until I saw what was happening to the Drews, which I believe it's because they sound like Jews, so people must assume um that we're that we're sort of all all the same. Um I'm interested in all four of your perspective. How many innocent people do you believe have been killed in Syria since the new president took over um over a year ago?
▶ 2:45:22Is it a 10, a h 100red, a thousand, 10,000? How many do you all think have been killed since he took over? Whether it's intentional or incompetent and I'll start with you, uh, Miss Mans, and then I'd go down the line. Got a guess?
▶ 2:45:39I I would say 10,000 in the minorities. I think that we're way under counting both in SUA and in the coastal areas.
▶ 2:45:45So, your estimate is 10,000. Um, Miss Carlin, what's your estimate? How many innocent people have been killed? My estimate is probably slightly lower. Uh but I really can't pinpoint it.
▶ 2:45:56But a but like a between five and 10 thousand in the thousand I think.
▶ 2:46:01Mr. Mr. Tabler, how many
▶ 2:46:04I think the number killed have been in the thousands. The degree to which they're innocent or not or whether they were combatants or not, I have no way to judge. Uh but of course people have lost their lives. It's not a secret.
▶ 2:46:14Mr. Jeffrey, Ambassador Jeffrey,
▶ 2:46:16uh probably between 2 to 4,000 in a country that uh in 14 years of war saw 600,000 people killed and that has to be taken into consideration, too. It's a hell of a lot less than what we saw when we were dealing with it.
▶ 2:46:31Well, thank you. Look, I I think it's probably close based on what I saw in SUA. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 10,000 people right there. I I would just say this. I I I don't think, you know, you can turn over a new leaf all that easily. I personally am very skeptical about what is going on there.
▶ 2:46:52And I don't think that you reward someone who's engaged in very, very bad behavior in the past until you see the kind of good behavior that I don't think that we are seeing thus far. So, thank you all for being here today. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:47:06Representative Shrieve. Thank you, uh, chairman, and I appreciate the testimony of our witnesses. I had to step out for something else, but, uh, I've learned a lot today. Uh, uh, Dr. Jeff, Mr. Jeffrey, it's good to see you again. Um, I had an opportunity, uh, not so long ago to stand at the Israel Syria border and it was at, uh, one of those quiet moments as as Dr. Carlin described it.
▶ 2:47:35But uh I I'm just reminded um of the importance uh on both sides of that border toward keeping it at such. a few weeks ago, uh, there was a prison break, uh, detainee break, uh, 100 or so, uh, folks, uh, at the low end of the estimates that, uh, that, uh, uh, broke out of custody and
▶ 2:48:06then, uh, subsequently, our US forces began a mission of transferring I think about 7,000 uh, detainees, ISIS from northeast Syria to Iraq. And the the question might best be directed to Mr. Jeffrey, but uh uh Mr. Scher obviously has a lot of experience on the ground. All of you do.
▶ 2:48:27Um can you tell us what the current status is on the movement of these many thousands of detainees? And are we going to be in a better place uh once we've affected that in your view?
▶ 2:48:51Um we were in a good place when the SDF was guiding them. There's no doubt about it. But these were in areas that essentially were Arab areas and the Arab tribes rose up uh and basically changed sides. So the SDF started withdrawing. As you said, there was some confusion in what amounted to a handover. I'm surprised it was only 100 or 120. Supposedly 80 were captured.
▶ 2:49:14Now what the US decided in order to basically spread the wealth to allow us to better manage this, us being the entire defeat is ISIS coalition was to move third country European, Russian and such um terrorists and family members and the remaining Iraqi people in northeast Syria and there weren't too many left to Iraq where the Iraqis will and they have a lot of experience.
▶ 2:49:42It also has been mixed, but it'll probably be okay. The Syrians, however, are staying in northeast Syria and they've been placed under the control of the Alshara government. So, it isn't that we don't trust them, so we moved them all away. The Syrians are remaining.
▶ 2:49:58Yes, Mr. Sheller.
▶ 2:50:00So, it's a very good question. Um the I think the the big bet here, the the risk is that of course the SDF which had intelligence developed with us about different fighters. Um now that these prisons that were previously SDF now are under the control of the Syrian government, many are being released from these prisons and they as Ambassador Jeffrey said they are Syrian and by and large.
▶ 2:50:23Uh the the problem is is that what will those people do now that they're released and that is very risky uh because uh Syria's borders are not like um as secure as they as we would like them to be. Uh so there's a threat to the in terms of getting outside of Syria. But I think more more to the point it threatens the the hold of Ahmedara on the go on the government in Syria because he has a problem with ISIS within his own ranks.
▶ 2:50:50And tragically, we learned that from uh the loss of the lives of two American servicemen and a translator more recently. So, uh again, beware of maps and certainty in Syria. my my I would urge you as somebody who's been doing this for, you know, 25 years and lived in Syria and worked on it from the top down. Um work the intelligence community, ask for their assessments. Uh try and square things as much as one can.
▶ 2:51:16Uh videos are very important but there and there are no secrets in Syria but uh try and verify the uh the information that you're getting.
▶ 2:51:25I appreciate that very much. Um we've got approximately a thousand uh troops in Syria. Do we generally agree on that number? Um uh and we're conducting ongoing missions. Uh Mr. Jeffrey, would would the US be capable of conducting these strikes or gathering relevant information in Syria with without that presence? Do our troops serve to provide intelligence information?
▶ 2:51:54They do and it's very very important as you know they do both uh unique unilateral missions typically with the Jac Black Soft people uh bombings and raids. Then they work with the SDF and uh over the last year increasingly they've also been working with uh Alshara and his central government forces.
▶ 2:52:15Now there was some intelligence sharing as I said I cited earlier a New York Times article on how as early as 2016 there was some intelligence sharing back and forth between al-Shar and Idlib in the US. Uh so uh he they can do uh some of that but it's always best to have troops on the intelligence people on the ground which means troops to protect them to work with our local allies. I'm a big uh fan of that and I think they should stay on.
▶ 2:52:44Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 2:52:46Thank you. Representative Bkin. You've been here from the beginning and you were fighting for this hearing to happen. Welcome to the Foreign Affairs Committee, my friend.
▶ 2:52:55I'm truly grateful to you, Mr. Chairman. um for holding this very important hearing. Uh I'm going to jump to uh questions. Um Miss Manza um tell me relative to what you know about Erd Erdogan, the president of Turkey, has he made public statements that he wants to reestablish the Ottoman Empire?
▶ 2:53:18Yes. [laughter]
▶ 2:53:20In his desire to reestablish the Ottoman Empire, that means driving all the way to Jerusalem. Mhm.
▶ 2:53:26And so it would you please describe um the Turkey influence relative to this new regime in Syria in one minute?
▶ 2:53:37Sure. So no doubt that President Erdogan had a big role in bringing Alshar up into this um position he has. They he's training his military. He's um putting their officers through through school but also establishing um troops on the ground. I think he has over 20,000 on the ground. says he's not going to pull them. So, I do think that um as I mentioned earlier, there are no constraints for Erdogan in Syria like there are in in Turkey.
▶ 2:54:03So, he he's able to push Erd um Alshara no doubt pushed him to want to take the northeast, which is why the US really should have countered him better.
▶ 2:54:12Is there any decision that Alshara has made in the last six months that Turkey is going public in major opposition to?
▶ 2:54:18I have not seen that.
▶ 2:54:19Neither have I. Is there any position and I can just say privately because of great respect um for what's trying to be accomplished. Are you hearing from is those of of Israel concerned about their own national security about the amassing of troops in the Sua region in southern Syria where Israel is saying danger?
▶ 2:54:41Exactly. And I think that we heard earlier about how Turkey even wanted Russia to be in southern Syria.
▶ 2:54:46I'm glad you brought that up. Can you expound upon the foreign minister discussion as of November between the the Russian government
▶ 2:54:55and the Alshara
▶ 2:54:56Syrian government and their desire to have Russian military bases in southern
▶ 2:55:02if the once the Caesar's act was repealed and what that would mean to what we had all hoped would be a demilitarized zone
▶ 2:55:10and how if Israel wanted to protect the Jews which nobody else is concerned about in that region protecting the Jews and the the Christians are being slaughtered Ed, how does that then create not an international incident and and Alshara and Turkey know this that the Drews would be without protection?
▶ 2:55:27Yeah. So, uh you know, Alshara in a meeting um with Russia said, you know, admitted Russia's fully involved in Syria and um and the Syrian government took the Russian defense attaches to the border and wanted to set up I think over 12 outposts. So clearly Russia is is um once I think over 10 bases in in that in in Syria right now and I'm hearing from all sorts of sources that there's all sorts of discussions going on about
▶ 2:55:55So I I watched videos a few months back where um paragliding exercises as a as a exercise in Damascus were taking place. And so the question is asked is Alshara weak or is he complicit? because it's one of the two because the ISIS insignia of the flags being raised when they're pushing the Kurds out, ISIS insignia, the people being slaughtered in hospitals with the Drews, ISIS insignia, he's either weak or he's complicit. And I think it's he's wink wink nod nod.
▶ 2:56:24And I my personal belief is is that he is reading the part of the Quran that says in a weakened position, remain quiet, remain still, let your not your trives be known until you get to a place of strength. My real belief is that Erdogan's desire to have a a reestablishment of the Ottoman Empire that Alshara is not being fully truthful to what his real goal is. I don't think he's weak. I think he's a pragmatist and I think he's using I I am greatly concerned that 20 years ago China was two trillion GDP.
▶ 2:56:54And once prosperity came to China once they got in the WTO, now they're at 20 trillion. They're the closest GDP clipping at the heels of America. And what we did by bringing prosperity to China didn't change their ideology. All it did was make them truly a weapon of warfare that we now fear. My great concern is that we are enabling the prosperity of Turkey. We are enabling the prosperity of Russia and Ashara is not being truthful to us.
▶ 2:57:22And that we years down the road as prosperity comes is not going to change the jihadist mentality. It didn't change it in China. there, as the witness said before, 5,000 years, and we think that prosperity, they're they it's the afterlife they're paying attention to. So, I got 19 seconds left. I I'm enamored by this concept because Tom Bareric has got a role as the Turkey ambassador and his special envoy to Syria. He has to maintain a good relationship with Turkey.
▶ 2:57:49Would we not be well served for someone that could be specific to Syria, whether it be an envoy specific to Syria or ambassador? How would that not help us to make sure that Tom Barrett can maintain a good relationship with Turkey, but we can have someone that can play hard ball in Syria?
▶ 2:58:04It has been very difficult to have him play both have both hats on and I think we've seen that even with the State Department not having a role to play in Syria policy and waiting for Bareric to make decisions that I don't think that have served the president well if his goal was peace and stability in the Middle East.
▶ 2:58:19Thank you. I yield, Mr. Chairman. Thank you again, Representative McBride.
▶ 2:58:24Thank you so much, Mr. chairman and uh to the ranking member as well for uh organizing this hearing. Thank you so much to the witnesses for your patience as we move all the way down the deis. While today's hearing centers on Syria, the implications reach far beyond its borders. This conversation really is about how the United States shows up in the world and whether we're willing to stay engaged when our influence is being tested.
▶ 2:58:50When we step back, when we dismantle tools like USAD and lose our presence on the ground, we leave a gap. And Russia and Iran are quick to fill it. They use instability to grow their power rather than helping the Syrian people build a future. Continued engagement alongside our NATO allies is how we build stability, uphold our values, and convey to the region and the world that we won't seed ground actors who thrive in and on chaos.
▶ 2:59:17Zooming back in specifically, for decades, Syria under Bashar al-Assad served as a base from which terrorism and instability radiated across across the Middle East. And woven deeply into that reality is Russian influence. Russia didn't appear in Syria overnight. Their military ties date back to 1971 when the Soviet Union first established the naval facility in Tardis, a strategic base for projecting power in the Mediterranean.
▶ 2:59:45Over time, their influence has become embedded in nearly every layer of the Syrian state. Russia began printing Syrian currency. Russia began supplying arms and subsequently servicing their weaponry. And in turn, the Syrian civil war became a proving ground for Moscow's military tactics and weapons. Experience later carried onto the battlefield in Ukraine with devastating consequences for civilians in both countries.
▶ 3:00:13Russia has been playing both sides of the coin for over a decade, harboring Bashar al-Assad in Moscow while drawing the new Syrian leadership into further dependence. And we know too well Russian's approach is about leverage, not loyalty. Russia builds its leverage through division and fragility. The West seeks to build it through stability. And so my question uh to Dr.
▶ 3:00:40Carlin, a as we seek to stabilize Syria and combat Russian influence, what concrete tools does the United States have to reduce Russian influence in Syria, both militarily, economically, and
▶ 3:00:54Thank you very much for highlighting that important question, Congresswoman. Um, you know, it seems to me that the Syrian government's approach toward Russia is similar to its approach at large. It's got to minimize enemies and maximize friends because it's juggling a whole lot. As we've talked about throughout throughout this hearing, I have gotten the impression that uh it is not a top five, top 10 priority from the US perspective to pressure Damascus uh to downgrade its relationship with Russia.
▶ 3:01:23I understand that there's a whole lot of issues to be worried about, but fundamentally Russia being there is not in US national security interest, particularly Russia's military being there. And as you highlighted the Syrian government having this dependence in some ways on Russia in a wide variety of ways. So one thing in particular we can do is just start raising this with Damascus. Start showing them that while we appreciate they want a lot of friends, this is actually a friend that we see highly highly problematic.
▶ 3:01:51Other things we can do is to help fill the space and get others to fill the space. So if we are working on security sector reform and professionalizing the Syrian military, they're less likely to turn to others as well. And then really the last piece um is efforts at stabilization and reconstruction. So trying to bring in additional regional investment. We've seen the Saudis most uh most recently doing so. European investment uh as as well. All ways uh to try to decrease uh the Russian presence.
▶ 3:02:21Certainly that to me I I I think is a a sound strategy moving forward. I'm curious your perspective on the administration's destruction of USAD, the the undermining of foreign aid, including humanitarian and and democratic assistance aid, how that impacts our capacity to effect effectively execute that strategy.
▶ 3:02:40It absolutely affects it. I mean, we had uh folks inside USAD focused on helping transition fragile states and they're not there and they don't have the resources. And so, you need someone to do this. And frankly, it's not uh a wholly altruistic effort. It's not wholly a humanitarian effort. It's actually a selfish security effort.
▶ 3:03:02If we see a Syria that is not able to be reconstructed, that is able to be stabilized, that is able to be secure, it will fundamentally go against our national security interests.
▶ 3:03:12A a a example playing out in real time about how our destruction of foreign aid undermines not only our values, but our own interests. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Representative McBride. This has been a great debate. I've really enjoyed hearing it myself. I've held my questions up until this point, and I want to ask my question, then I'm going to give the chair to Representative Biggs uh to take over for a little bit. Uh and I believe that we're going to move into another round of questioning for members that have another round of questioning.
▶ 3:03:39As long as uh you witnesses can stay for more questions, we're happy to to have you and uh have your input. I want to ask this uh difficult question and it's not to have you put yourself out there and have somebody you know come back and talk to you in a year, three years and say, you know, you're right or wrong on that one. But I just ask you to go down the line. Where do you actually think we are next Christmas or a year from now or three years from now or five years?
▶ 3:04:08I don't care what the window is that you pick. I'll let you pick it for yourself. But given the course that we're on, given the histories that you know, the possibilities for the future, we'll start with you, Ambassador, and we'll go down the line. Where do you think we are in you pick the window of time?
▶ 3:04:31I think we have a chance in Syria and in the larger Middle East to stabilize and build on our successes over the last few years. But I'm old enough to remember we felt the same way after the Yam Kapo war in 1973 and after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991. And in the end, the region returned to chaos and violence.
▶ 3:04:57So we shouldn't think that we are on a path that is going to just get us to a peaceful Middle East. We are on a path that could if we make the right decisions. I've enumerated some of them. My colleagues have enumerated others. Uh by and large I totally agree with them. Uh but the jury frankly is still out and that's the best answer I could give you.
▶ 3:05:17Mr. Table,
▶ 3:05:21a year from now we are going to have very fragile stability. If the agreement that's currently um on the table from January 30th is not implemented, I'm afraid it'll become uh a blueprint for the rest of the country. I don't think you can stabilize Syria without bringing in more minorities beyond tokenistic appointments in in the in the government. I think most Syrians understand that if if the government is unable to do that, we are going to have increased instability in the country.
▶ 3:05:48Also at the same time investment will not flow into the country because now that sanctions are lifted and that's all fine the bean counters and the other ones who are responsible for these investments coming in from the outside with perhaps the exception of the Gulf but no do not want these funds to go to illicit activities and most importantly they want a return on their investments. Even Gulf countries are very skeptical of kleptocracy. Greater um I think uh right now without greater reforms inside of Syria and fast we're going to be in for a rough year in the years ahead.
▶ 3:06:18Miss Mayansa
▶ 3:06:20I think the title of the hearing is right on. We're at a crossroads. It can go one of two ways. You know Alshara can could um accept the pressure from the US to push towards an inclusive government. The January 30th agreement is keying local governance local security. So there's a chance. Let me put it that way. There's a chance. But if not, we're going to see war. The legitimacy of this government is going to fail. We're going to see the rise of of even further of Islamists um extremists in this country and it is going to fall apart.
▶ 3:06:49And that is the worst anti-Iran strategy there could be because we're going to chaos will give all the bad actors. There is no vacuum in nature. And that is in the northeast. They filled a vacuum and that is what we've got to be watching for now. So I think it's the the pressure the US puts on right now is going to be critical for what happens next.
▶ 3:07:08Miss Carlin,
▶ 3:07:09thank you very much for that question. I think we're going to continue to see fragility. So a year from now we will see the integration of nearly all armed actors. We will see violence continue including violence against minorities. I think simultaneously we will also see efforts to try to uh down effort efforts to counter that violence and to investigate it as well. we'll see a lot more investment come through and uh I think we will see continued progress on the Israel Syria front.
▶ 3:07:36I think the dilemma will be us trying to understand a year from now has enough progress been made because we will not be satisfied with where things are a year from now.
▶ 3:07:46I thank you all for your responses. I'm going to hand the chair to Representative Mills. Uh I believe he's going to representative Biggs. Representative Stzman, thank you also for joining our committee today and then move into another round for those that wish it. Thank you for your
▶ 3:08:16Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. At this time, we'll recognize my colleague from South Carolina, Miss Bigs, for five
▶ 3:08:23Thank you, Mr. chairman and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. As Syria enters a new chapter under the leadership of Hammad al-Sharah, we must move beyond rhetoric to examine historical governance. While Mr. Ashar has recently adopted the mantel of a national statesman, he is not a new actor in Syrian administration.
▶ 3:08:48For the 10 years preceding the fall of the Al of the Al-Assad government, Alshra exercised sovereignty over the Idlib district. This decadel long tenure serves as a primary case study for his administrative philosophy. So my question is to Dr.
▶ 3:09:11Monza, since past performance is the best indicator of future performance, what were the conditions like for Christians, for Drews and other religious minorities under his control in Idlib?
▶ 3:09:28Thanks. So, thanks so much, Congresswoman, for that question. I'm going to refer to the US Commission on International Religious Freedom's last two reports on Syria. And I think it's s while it's easy to look at Idlib as having been a success and hearing some of my colleagues talk about the stability the religious freedom conditions there were horrific in the last several years and um the US commission on international religious freedom and the state department um both designated HTS as an entity of particular concern because of the egregious ongoing systematic
▶ 3:09:58violations of religious freedom. So for instance, in the last year's report, it said HTS continues to impose its interpretation of Sunni Sunni Islam on both Muslim and non-Muslim residents alike and goes on to talk about how they had taken land from Christians. Um and and the the other report um they had very similar to that said um that um they um despite HTS's robust campaign to distance itself from this past massacres and other crimes against religious minorities.
▶ 3:10:29The group's governance in the Northwest advanced a Salafi jihadist ideology, disenfranchising Christians and Jews. HS continued to expose appropriate property, restrict religious rituals, arrest and detain religious minorities and nonconforming Sunni Muslims and imposing relig religiously justified dress codes on women. So these are things that we're just not hearing, but that is how al-Hashara governed when he had Idlib.
▶ 3:10:55And so we're seeing his same forces that is what that was normal to them. And so he's projecting this moderate image and his own forces are like wait I don't think so. So many of them were expecting a similar type um really um harsh environment for the rest of Syria and and and it hasn't been the case and so there's been friction among even his own um forces.
▶ 3:11:18Thank thank you for that. So during this time, what was the official policy regarding the seizure of homes and lands belonging to the displaced Christian families? And were those properties ever
▶ 3:11:31Um, there was some movement to bring Christians back. In fact, in 2024, the New York Times did an article about the last Christian in Idlib to give you any sense about how friendly it was to be a Christian in Idlib. But then there was a movement to give some lands back, to bring Christians back. And I think as they were trying to revitalize their image um to try to show that they were pro-christ Christian, but we have not seen um the lands really being returned in any sort of um positive improvements in the conditions for all the minorities um in Idlib.
▶ 3:12:02Okay. I have um one final question. So were the non-Islamic houses of worship, were they allowed to remain open and undergo repairs or hold public services under the Idlib administration?
▶ 3:12:16Um I understand they mostly were. Um there weren't very many Christians left to to um attend. But as you know um religious freedom was more than just being able to go into a church is being able to identify and not be targeted because of your identification. be able to um have your beliefs openly. So, there is some show of that here and there, but but overall um it was a pretty harsh place for Christians, Drews, and other minorities to live.
▶ 3:12:44Well, thank you so much. And I yield
▶ 3:12:51Thank you so much. I was getting an update on who's next. Um, at this time I want to recognize uh a gentleman who was brave enough to actually go into Syria um and truly see it for himself and what was going on. A man that I respect highly. Uh this time I'll recognize the uh gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Stzman.
▶ 3:13:09Uh thank you, Mr. Mills. I went because you were along because I know you rescue people for a hobby and
▶ 3:13:14it's it's it's it's not a very highpaying hobby.
▶ 3:13:18Well, thank you and thank you to the panelists um for being here. you all have been great today and really appreciate uh all of you. Uh I as uh Congressman Mills mentioned, we did go to uh Syria about a year ago over the Easter weekend and I tell you what, I I love the people of Syria. It it's there's just remarkable people and the uh the pain and suffering that they have gone through over the past 50 years.
▶ 3:13:44went up to Sia to the prison uh and just saw the horrific conditions of what thousands and thousands of people live through. Um and we as Americans I I know I want to help Syria. I want to help the people of Syria. Um you know, Christianity was basically born in Syria.
▶ 3:14:05You know, I got to walk on the road where Saul walked uh on his way to Damascus, and I I met with President Alshara, and I told him, "If we could get Syria safe and secure, the amount of tourism that would occur uh from Christians, just Christians, others as well, but Christians would love to go to Jerusalem and then to Damascus. Uh the economic impact would be incredible.
▶ 3:14:29There's so many good reasons why we need to help Syria get this together." and and so I thank all of you for for what you've done and religious freedom I think is the key to all of this. Um we are a very diverse country here in America. Religious freedom is one of our core fundamental foundations. We've got to respect one another. Um no matter our disagreements, let's agree to disagree, but let's also agree to have a civil dialogue as well.
▶ 3:14:59And uh so I think that's just a critical component to making sure that Syria is on the right track is religious freedom. And I know that there are people there that are living in fear today because they don't believe they have the safety and security because of who they are or who they worship. Um one thing I'll quickly uh comment is, you know, I am rooting for Alshara. I want to see him successful.
▶ 3:15:24But over the last year, the attacks have been on the Alawite, the Drews, Christians surrounded around Syria, uh now the Kurds. And so I don't see an attack on Damascus. So I think to me, and this is what I shared with President Alshar, is that actions speak louder than words. At the end of the day, that's how we have to all judge what's happening in Syria is the actions that are occurring.
▶ 3:15:52Uh I want to ask um actually because time's running out, I want to ask all of you because Dr. Carlin, thank you for your comments. You gave some great suggestions at the very beginning and I think that that's so helpful to us is what can we should be doing. But I want to bring up the embassy because nothing has really been talked about the embassy and I want to ask each one of you on the panel, how important would it be for us to lean in? I think that's what we have to do.
▶ 3:16:21Honestly, I don't think we should be backing up. I think we need to lean in. Uh but how important is it or would it be to open the embassy and have a Syrian ambassador? Uh Dr. Carlin, I'll start with you since you brought it up, then we'll just go right down the line.
▶ 3:16:33Yeah, thank thank you for raising that, Congressman. I think it's incredibly important. We've debated a lot in this hearing what's really going on. And when you've got smart diplomats there 247, they can really help us understand that and they can try to coordinate all of the different efforts that we have swimming about. So I think it's hands down the most important thing that can happen here.
▶ 3:16:52Miss Ben Mensah,
▶ 3:16:53yes, I do agree that we need to um have a presence in Damascus and I think that um we need to have um people that are going to be able to be independent and in interacting with the government. I I fear that right now the way that Ambassador Bareric has been um running policy for Syria, there isn't a robust discussion internally about policy at the State Department. And I think that's why Congress matters so much right now. And while your voices matter so much and the embassy needs to have a very diverse group of people there, I also want to state that I think that Damascus needs to have a mission here.
▶ 3:17:23They have not sent official groups here either to interact with the the government at the State Department. Actually mentioned to me, boy, it would be really helpful if they had a presence here. So we had this interaction. we could socialize these ideas together, work together and help them see the only way forward for a diverse country like Syria for peace and stability is to be able to have an inclusive government. Otherwise, Syria is going to fail and we and this is the way to do it.
▶ 3:17:44I want to get Mr. Tabler, Mr. Jeffrey's comments real quick.
▶ 3:17:47Um I spent a lot of time in the US embassy in in Damascus, not as a diplomat. Um in and out. It's not safe. It's on Mali Square. There's another property out in Yafur. We can talk about this offline. Um that I think we still own. It would have to be constructed. Did it have to be a setback embassy? Very, very difficult. Um, but setting up something there is very important from a public diplomacy standpoint. Yes. But most importantly, getting to the point of this whole thing, you know, you've called this hearing because you're caught in the fog of war and peace in Syria.
▶ 3:18:17You're trying to figure out what's going on. We need a collection station and we need diplomats there who can get in who can go and meet with people and say, "Hey, what the hell is going on? I saw this video. What is this? What are these tribal forces that are fighting alongside of your forces? What's going on here? We're doing that from the top. We need to do it in a more comprehensive way. We have diplomats and engineers and others who are very, very good at this, but they have not yet been
▶ 3:18:46Absolutely. But to be effective, any ambassador has to have access to in the trust of the president and his top advisers, Secretary Rubio and Tom Barrick in that case. That's critically important or you wind up with Kacaphon in diplomacy. Believe me, I've been
▶ 3:19:06Thank you. N yield back.
▶ 3:19:08Thank you so much. And again, that's a great question, but also not just focusing on the US embassy being based out of Damascus. We know what happens there, but truly looking at the consulate outpost that would allow us to get ground truth realities, which I think is what Mr. Tabler is talking about. Mr.
▶ 3:19:22Tabber, I couldn't agree with you more about the fact of one having the necessary security protocol, standoff and relocation where the current existing embassy is, but also ensuring we have strategic areas combined with working with things like the Syrian Sovereignty Fund who controls all the federal land assets and being able to ask them for those land assets at no cost to the American people. That's the other thing is looking at total cost because fiscally responsible and safety of Americans is our number one priority.
▶ 3:19:49Stabilization and ensuring a free Damascus and Syria is a secondary to that. So, I'll always put the American people first. Uh, at this time, I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. McKenzie, for 5
▶ 3:20:01Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of our panelists here today. It's a very important topic, safety and stability in Syria. And for myself, it's an important topic because we have a strong and vibrant local community of Christian Syrians. It's the second largest Syrian population in the country. And I have heard and engaged with them on a number of times.
▶ 3:20:25They have serious concerns about Christian Syrians who are still in in a very tenuous situation in Syria. And so, Ms. Men, my question to you is what is your assessment of the security for Christians and other religious minorities in Syria, but particularly Christians, and do you see conditions for those groups improving, remaining unchanged, or deteriorating under the current government?
▶ 3:20:50Thank you so much, Congressman, for your question. Um, you know, Christian Christians have dropped um from 10% of the population before the war to 2% today. roughly about 300,000 to 400,000 um that are left um and you know and while it seems that President Alshara um has directed um his forces to not touch Christians so we haven't seen the same sort of targeting of Christians and it seems to be purposeful that way yet they have been caught in soas um they've been caught um obviously in the Kurdish areas they've been caught
▶ 3:21:20in the Alawway area so we have seen them killed and there has been targeted killings in fact there even some Christians that are being detained right now so so there there it is is not um they still are running into problems and have great insecurity and fear of the future future. I think that beyond the historical churches and I think those are the ones that there has been some sort of sense that you can't touch those and so they haven't been um targeted the same way we've seen some other minorities.
▶ 3:21:45I think it's important to understand that in the northeast especially among Kurdish Christians they've been very public that there are places in fact where else in the Middle East do you see churches of Christian converts and so they are especially at risk and it's so important that the Congress also is paying attention to them as we look at um the integration agreement as we look at what these forces do to make sure that Christians who who are converts who've been more public and of course there are also evangelical churches that tend to be more Christians from the historical um Christian churches but also again sometimes s are
▶ 3:22:15more at risk from these Islamist factions. So, yeah, it is is very tenuous right now for Christians. I I talked to them. Some of them that are more up in the high high in the mountains, further away feel a little safer, but the ones in Damascus and other places are um are very fearful.
▶ 3:22:29And so, you mentioned some of the statements from the current government in Syria. They have made other public statements about how they want to protect Syria's religious and ethnic minorities, including Christian Syrians. But given the violence in the past year, to what extent do you think those assurances are translating into real on the ground protections for Christians?
▶ 3:22:49Well, Christians don't feel protected. In fact, so many people personally have told me that someone has come up to them or at the church, they've received some, you know, some post on their the front saying you're next. So, it's almost like a kind of way of just um threatening them even if they haven't followed through with all of it. So I I do think that that um that first many Christians are afraid and of course Christians aren't a monolith, right? There are some that feel safer and there's some that feel less safe.
▶ 3:23:15So I hate just making a broad statement because there are and the Christians are a little different that they they live throughout the country. So there's not like one place where the Christians are and they tend to be the glue among all the different communities. So they live among all the um communities especially the Alawites, the Drews and the Kurds. The final question I have is the the current government under Alsharra has agreed that this was one of the points of their framework with the United States government that they would work on and there are milestones or benchmarks that we want to hold them accountable to.
▶ 3:23:45What can we do uh as members of of Congress and the US government to ensure the safety of those minorities in Syria? I think one of the most interesting things when I met with um a lot of the Christian leaders um in February when I first went to Damascus and they said don't be the rally cry don't have the rally cry be say protect the minorities or protect the Christians we want the rally cry to be equal citizenship they don't want to be favored they don't want to be marginalized they want to be equal citizens with their Sunni brothers and sisters who who for thousands of years they live together peacefully
▶ 3:24:15and so I think it's important to fight for equal citizenship for Christians Jews Kurds for everybody and that means changing the constitution right Now it's an Arab republic. It could be the Syrian Republic. It has um Islamic Jewish prudence as as the source of law. Even Turkey had that once. It doesn't now. No one holds that against Turkey. They can take that away. Um it says the president must be a Muslim, but he doesn't have to be a Syrian. Um again, these just send a message to all of society that you're not that you're secondass citizen, and that actually makes them feel more vulnerable.
▶ 3:24:46Well, I want to thank you for sharing that because when I met with a member of the clergy in our local community, that is exactly what he said. He said, "We are all Syrians. We don't want to be different.
▶ 3:24:55They want to stand for everybody."
▶ 3:24:57And so, I appreciate that sentiment and that's something we want to carry forward as well.
▶ 3:25:00Thank you so much, Congressman.
▶ 3:25:03Thank you so much. And that's absolutely one of the things that I noted uh Ambassador Jeffrey. I know as many on this uh panel can tell you, you know, during the fall of Iraq, one of the things that you saw was that everyone started identifying themselves as I am Christian, I am Shia, I am Sunnia, I am Chadian, I am the benefit that I look at when I went to Syria is that everyone was proud to represent the nationalistic I'm Syrian. I think that's a very bold and big step when we think about what the future of Syria can be.
▶ 3:25:31Looking at the lessons that we've had from the failures in Afghanistan and Iraq, Mr. Tyler, you you've kind of hit so many good points for me and I just want to follow up with something because I really do want your thoughts and mindset on this. Seeing the HTS linked bureaucrats that are filling key ministries in Damascus, is this, do you think, a genuine political transition or are we actually just watching a terrorist organization put on a suit in an effort to try and get around US
▶ 3:26:01Yeah, that's a difficult question to answer. First of all, I I note your concern about this. The the the role of HTS in the new government, even though it's formerly been disbanded, those figures are very clear. They're front and center and everybody everybody sort of knows about that, right?
▶ 3:26:16So the the problem is I think both the administration itself as well as the centralization of everything uh the general secretary for political affairs in the ministry of uh foreign affairs um has created and even ambassador Barak has talked about this publicly bottlenecks concerning decision- making key decision-m on everything in Syria and I'm sure my international counterparts have found this as well.
▶ 3:26:41you have a meeting, you go to Damascus, you have a great time, it's a great place to party, too, and you have some great food and you leave and nothing comes from your meeting that Syrians are also facing that. So the question, yeah, it it's a very good question. Is this just part of political management?
▶ 3:26:56I think it is. It it it could be this just the HTS base, but I will point something out to you. Everybody here today has talked about how political instability in Syria was fostered by the Assad regime. It was exacerbated by the Assad regime. Correct.
▶ 3:27:11Political instability in Syria has come since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. It was under Sunni leaderships in the 40s,50s and into the 60s often times where the country actually disappeared for three days under union or three years under union with Egypt because there were coups and counter coups and their elites were thrown out of the country and that's how a minority government came to power. So Ahmed Ashara knows, I'm sure I haven't asked him myself, but I look forward to it. Uh how to deal with instability inside of Syria, even from within the Sunni community.
▶ 3:27:41I'm sure that's that that's part of it. To your point, though, we need to raise with him the concerns about not including minorities in real beyond tokenistic positions. I think that's a legitimate concern of minorities and we need to to put this front and center with him if he is able to stabilize the country.
▶ 3:27:58I would completely agree with you. You know, one of my favorite books was the history of era by Eugene Rogan. And to your point, when you look at the history of the Middle East, you have to go all the way back from Sultan Solomon, the Ottoman Empire, expansionism, as well as to, you know, the elimination of the Mammlux by the Janisary armies and and so on and so forth in order to try and truly understand the breadth of history and understanding them. This is how it's always been and how we can improve upon it. And so, uh, I absolutely agree with that.
▶ 3:28:26Uh, one of the key things I worry about and Ambassador Jeffrey, this is something that I know that you focus a lot on is dealing with dash. And one of my concerns is that with the SDF integrating into the national army, which I agree that that's what we need. We need to be looking at how do we expel foreign fighters? How do we guarantee inclusivity and pluralism? How do we actually ensure that SDF and others are integrated into an army that can stand against the uh various forces whether it be ISIS or not?
▶ 3:28:55But what concerns me, knowing how many we've imprisoned that we've gotten out of the battlefield, who exactly is holding the keys to the prison that holds thousands of ISIS fighters today? And can we trust them to keep the doors locked?
▶ 3:29:12Uh right now it's in transition because uh as we talked earlier you've got the number is 7,000 but only a few thousand have moved already of third country and Iraqi families and u terrorists are being moved to Iraq. Uh the Syrians are going to stay. Uh some of them will be released.
▶ 3:29:34We talked about that way back with the SDF when I was in government in the first Trump administration because some of them are just the detainees that we round up just like we did in Iraq uh because they were on somebody's cell phone number. And some of those people are going to be released into their communities. Uh remember the projects we had with Guantanamo? We would talk to people and say uh will you take these people and you put them uh embedded in a family or another environment to get them uh and I think you'll see some of that.
▶ 3:30:03I don't know how successful it will be, but you will see some of that. I don't think it will be a major problem. The um uh Syrian government is committed to fighting ISIS. They fought ISIS back when they were al-Nusra. It was one group of jihadists fighting another, but there were other jihadists who were fighting ISIS, who were the people we wanted to see fought. And uh they were pretty effective on it uh in in their areas.
▶ 3:30:29I think that um this requires however continued American attention and again the best way to have
▶ 3:30:37biggest fear obviously is to make sure we don't have what happened with Afghanistan where they dump the prisons and 40,000 new Taliban fighters joins the battlefield and that's obviously a very big concern for me. U Mr. Keen, I I brother, I want to make sure you that you and I are constantly in in concern of is how Christians are being persecuted uh throughout the Middle East and even in Nigeria and other places.
▶ 3:30:59And I know that, you know, this is something that's near and dear to our hearts to ensure that everyone has a right to uh their own belief, but at the same time that they're not having the persecution and the uh murderous kind of ideologies that Islam has brought along. Um, do you have any questions that you want to add into that? All right. Thanks. I just wanted to make sure I give you that opportunity. Uh, I think the witnesses uh for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions.
▶ 3:31:27The members of the committee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to that in writing, please. Uh, pursuant to the committee rules, all members may have 5 days to submit statements, questions, extraneous materials for the record subject to the length limitations. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.