▶ 0:00:44subcommittees on Africa and Western this hearing called defending religious freedom around the world will come to order and I want to welcome each and every one of you here today. Especially our very distinguished witnesses. Thank them in advance for not only their testimony but their extraordinary I do want to express my heartfelt congratulations and thanks to Ambassador Sam Brownback and Dr.
▶ 0:01:10Katrina Lantos Swett who are the co-chairs of the International Religious Freedom Summit just concluded here in Washington for an extraordinarily comprehensive call to action for global religious liberty. With incisive commentary and analysis from a broad swath of faith leaders we have all been challenged once again to do more to mitigate and hopefully end religious persecution.
▶ 0:01:40The United States, I think as we all know here and many know it occur around the world religious freedom is often called America's first freedom since it's listed first in our Bill of Rights. The founders wrote, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The establishment clause and the free exercise clause protect the right of conscience of every American. That inviolable domain of the heart of every human being.
▶ 0:02:10And of course religious freedom is not at all an American right alone. It's one that belongs to every human being on the face of the earth. Yet all around the world today religious persecution is festering and exploding. What has been unconscionable for decades and centuries has actually gotten worse in many parts of the world.
▶ 0:02:31Billions of human beings made in the image and likeness of God live in countries where God the God-given right to freely exercise their religion is severely restricted. Many to the point of incarceration, torture, and According to Open Doors 2025 World Watch list, quote, "More than 380 million Christians suffer high levels of persecution and discrimination for their faith." Close quote.
▶ 0:03:00Anti-Semitism is exploding not just in the Middle East, but throughout Western democracies including in the United States. Brutal dictatorships like China, Russia, Nicaragua, North Korea, Belarus, and Cuba. And we had a I shared a hearing on Belarus yesterday and we heard from uh uh uh several very, very important people, many of whom were incarcerated for a long time. One case was the man that would have won the election, his wife Svetlana.
▶ 0:03:28Uh and and in Belarus they're crushing or trying to crush the church and the faith community under Brutal dictatorships, like I said, are are terrified of their people. It shows a an innate weakness. Um they they cannot stand a competition when it comes to the heart, minds, and souls of their people.
▶ 0:03:51And so again, we have China, Russia, Nicaragua, North Korea, Belarus, and Cuba, and many others are terrified of letting their people uh speak out. And to practice their faith. In many other parts of the world, authorities heavily restrict independent religious activity that does not accord does not accord with strict Islamic law.
▶ 0:04:11For example, in Afghanistan, and Iran, Pakistan, and in many parts of Nigeria, which have death penalty blasphemy laws, and unfortunately increasingly in Syria, where under the new authorities Christians, Kurds, Yazidis, Jews, and Alawites are facing increasing religious Anything outside of the ubiquitous state, especially the search for deeper spiritual truths that speak directly to the human soul, is automatically a threat to these regimes.
▶ 0:04:42In China, and I do chair the China and I've been on that commission for years and worked on that for many many years, as has Sam Brownback. People of all faiths are subjected to deplorable treatment by the Chinese Communist Party. As we speak, Uyghur Muslims in China are suffering genocide. Today, they are still brutally repressed. Many are shipped off to labor camps. I've asked them, they told me we have nothing to hide. They being the Chinese. The foreign minister put out a statement.
▶ 0:05:13So, as chairman of the China Commission, I wrote him a letter immediately. I've been calling him ever since. I said, I want to lead a delegation to go to Xinjiang to go to the camps. Crickets. Nothing. They won't get back to us. They have everything to hide, and they are not even close to being transparent. Many are shipped off of the of the individuals there to camps. Their Their mosques are destroyed, and their children are forced to speak Mandarin instead of Uyghur.
▶ 0:05:40When unleashing terror on the Uyghurs, and again, this is the president or he's not a president, he's is Xi Jinping, he said, "We will show no mercy." And I I've looked at all of those statements that he has made and despite the pervasive use of torture, murder, and rape, much of the world looks askance and kowtows to Beijing. In May of last year, as part of its ongoing Sinicization campaign, China issued a decree effectively banning foreign missionaries from evangelizing within China.
▶ 0:06:09That includes the mere bringing of Bibles into the country. And just a few months ago, the Chinese Communist Party began a massive new crackdown to build on the old of Chinese Christians. Today, we have testifying before His Grace Jin Drexel, the daughter of Pastor Ezra Jin, who is one of dozens of church leaders, very brave church leaders, who are now being wrongfully detained, harassed, and horribly mistreated.
▶ 0:06:36You know, just in my case, on one trip to China, and I did there many times, I'm barred from going now, as is Sam, I know. We're on their list. Uh I had the awesome privilege of meeting with Bishop Shu Jinming. Bishop Shu was a leader of the underground Catholic Church. As we spoke and then prayed, he had been in prison for about 30 years up to that point. Uh the bishop prayed for the persecutors. I mean, that is right out of our out of our scriptures, to love those who hate you, do good to those who persecute you.
▶ 0:07:04There I am look talking talking to a man who bears scars on his body and on his and certainly in his soul uh of having been incarcerated for 30 years till then, and he was praying for those who did it. I was just, you know, I get mad when I get a bad editorial uh as do a lot of politicians. Here he is standing there uh sitting there telling us he prays for them. Uh his witness absolutely amazed me. Love those who hate you, as I said, as Christ did from the cross.
▶ 0:07:32Unfortunately, only a few years later, he was arrested again and disappeared. He has not been heard from since. Xi Jinping is crushing people with faith, torture, jailing, rape, and murder, and we must act.
▶ 0:07:45Our business community has been complacent, complicit I should say, complacent too, but complicit in all of this, and we need to get them to say, "Stop it, Xi Jinping." You know, he ought to be at The Hague for crimes against humanity and for genocide, not being cowed to by so many. Of course, North Korea has the same kinds of problems. 30,000 Christians are being held in their camps.
▶ 0:08:10And then on the topic of of of Nigeria, President Trump country of particular concern designation in October was necessary, long overdue, and bold. In his first administration with the strong backing of our Ambassador-at-Large, Sam Brownback, President Trump recognized that the mass killings by Boko Haram, ISIS West Africa, and armed Fulani terrorists against Christians in the Middle East Middle Belt, which are clearly motivated by ethnic and religious
▶ 0:08:41meant Nigeria's met the need for being designated CPC and was so designated. Genocide Watch has called Nigeria a killing field of defenseless And now, you know, International Religious Freedom Act, brilliantly written by our former colleague, Frank Wolf, a true champion of religious freedom, and that bill was opposed vigorously.
▶ 0:09:06He got it passed into law in 1988 and it has made a major difference globally, including now in Nigeria. We can't take our eyes off of that. I just want to say to my colleagues, to all of us, I'm deeply concerned that Nigeria has hired the Case Street lobbying firm, DCI, to the tune of $9 million, a month.
▶ 0:09:30A Nigerian billionaire Nigerian billionaire a billionaire has entered into a $120,000 a month contract with Valcore to influence Congress and the executive branch. And Ambassador, you know as well as I over these many years because you have fought this fight. They hire these firms, they come up with their very well-written talking points to say, "Nothing to see here." And you know, whether it be Haiti, China does it better than anyone else or worse really is what it is. Uh we saw it with Romania.
▶ 0:09:59I remember during the years of Nicolae Ceaușescu and I led the effort on that along with Frank and you, Sam. Um Mr. Ambassador, uh and they always had these lobby firms just say, "Ceaușescu's a good guy. He has all these churches that he has opened." He was torturing Christians. And the bill the book that got me into religious freedom myself was Tortured for Christ by Richard Wurmbrand who talked about the duplicity uh and unfortunately, how these firms uh are just so good at putting fine, you know, advocating for their client.
▶ 0:10:29Well, advocate for freedom and religious end to religious persecution. I have many other things I'd say, but I want to cut it off here. I do want to thank again all of you for being here. I'd like to yield to my good friend uh uh ranking member Jacobs for any comments you would
▶ 0:10:44Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um and thank you all the witnesses for testifying uh before the subcommittee on this important topic. Freedom of religion or belief is a fundamental human right. This right is universal and it must be applied to equally to everyone, no matter what religion or belief they practice or if they practice none at all.
▶ 0:11:04No country should get to cherry-pick what religions they favor or use religious freedom, religious persecution, or even a crisis like the rise in anti-Semitism as a shield to discriminate or as a weapon. So, while I'm glad that the Trump administration has supposedly shown its support for this issue, I'm concerned this interest will be shallow and narrowly confined to only a small subset of religious freedom issues that match the demographics of their political base. But, I hope the administration proves me wrong.
▶ 0:11:33They can start by actually investing in their own institution staffing and toolkit to make this a priority, comprehensive, and enduring. For one, we still do not have a nominee for the Ambassador-at-Large position. And Secretary Rubio downgraded the Office of International Religious Freedom by putting it under the Bureau for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, rather than keeping it as its own independent office. The department has yet to release the 2024 annual International Religious Freedom report that was due last May.
▶ 0:12:02And it's already behind in writing the 2025 report that is due in a few months. This administration has also completely gutted this toolkit that could help religious freedom defenders around the As part of its foreign assistance review, the administration cut millions of dollars worth of foreign assistance related to international religious For example, Freedom House has reported that the administration terminated its Asia religious and ethnic freedom program that was supporting 4,000 members of religious minority groups facing discrimination and persecution,
▶ 0:12:33including Christian minority groups, Uyghurs, and others. And another US-funded NGO shared with my office that cuts left 400 cases of religious freedom defenders in limbo. This means that this organization could no longer provide life-saving assistance to Afghan women who bravely ran for public office following the US or Iranian journalists who were reporting on human rights violations by Iran's regime, or Nicaraguan journalists who have been arrested and forced into exile by the regime, and many, many more.
▶ 0:13:03And as I brought up during last year's Nigeria hearing, despite the administration's apparent interest in addressing conflict and religious tensions in Nigeria, it has cut hundreds of millions of dollars in foreign assistance to Nigeria, including assistance to faith leaders and to communities experiencing violence in the Middle Belt.
▶ 0:13:21For example, Secretary Rubio terminated a conflict resolution program, Community Initiatives to Promote Peace, that trained religious and tribal leaders in northern Nigeria, which was already showing to be extremely effective at reducing violence in communities. The violence in Nigeria is complex, affecting both Christians and Muslims, and the drivers of this violence are multifaceted and cannot be reduced to a single framing.
▶ 0:13:45In fact, oversimplified narratives can further inflame religious tensions in And yet, it is clear that President Trump only cares about Christians in Nigeria, and his only real action to address this problem, military strikes over Christmas, have not even done anything to materially help those So far, it seems to me the administration's interest in religious freedom only goes so far, and it mostly applies to the plight of Christians But again, I hope the Trump administration proves me wrong
▶ 0:14:15and takes the steps I outlined to start prioritizing religious freedom abroad. And I hope today we can have a more nuanced conversation that discusses the freedom of religion or belief more comprehensively, and that addresses many communities in need of support, from Uighur communities in China to Tibetans to the Rohingya in Myanmar to religious minorities in Iran and elsewhere. So I look forward to hearing from all of the esteemed witnesses today to better understand the state of international religious freedom and how the Trump administration can truly champion this issue. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield
▶ 0:14:45Chair recognizes the co-chair of this hearing, and I want to thank Maria uh for her leadership. She has been an amazing human rights leader uh in the Western Hemisphere and for religious freedom, but I yield such time as you may consume.
▶ 0:14:59Thank you very much, and I do want to commend you for putting together this hearing and for the witnesses to come in to testify, and to you, Chris Smith, for being such a great champion of this topic that is so dear to us, religious people, and to the Western Hemisphere. As the chairman of the Western Hemisphere uh subcommittee and within the House Foreign Affairs Committee, it's it's a pleasure to be here and to be talking about what's happening in our part of the world and thank you once again.
▶ 0:15:27Um, as you said, religious liberty is under attack around the world and in the Western Hemisphere, there is a very clear example called Nicaragua. I know Nicaragua very well as a news correspondent working for Univision.
▶ 0:15:41I lived there and I saw firsthand how the Nicaraguans along with the Chileans are the most Catholic people in the Western I remember during one of the elections when Cardenal Obando y Bravo, who was like a rockstar for the Nicaraguans, was able to indicate or to guide the people to how to vote when the Sandinistas were trying to steal the elections once again.
▶ 0:16:12But unfortunately, the Sandinistas, Daniel Ortega and Rosario Murillo, are back in power and they are trying to substitute God for their regime. And this is what I'm not This is not an opinion. This is the empirical evidence. 260 religious figures have been expelled from just preaching or praying in A thousand Catholic churches have been attacked according to the Vatican.
▶ 0:16:40Uh, to in 2024, evangelical pastors belonging to this group called the Mountain Gateway Ministries were arrested on fake charges and were sentenced to decades in prison just for bringing the gospel. That is what Ortega and Murillo do to their people and to those who are close to God.
▶ 0:17:00In 2025, last year, Ortega threw out the Clarissa's nuns, forced them to flee to their to their convents and with almost nothing. And not only that, the the nuns Teresa de Calcuta or from Mother Teresa. And I visit them, I know them in El Mercado Oriental. They had to be They had to flee.
▶ 0:17:23They They had to go because Ortega would not allow them to continue practicing and serving saying those people who lived in that market called El Mercado Oriental. On top of that, Holy Week and Lent, those big processions that I covered as a news reporter were completely banned and they have been gone for the last 3 years. And on top of that, more than 6,000 faith-based NGOs have been shut down.
▶ 0:17:51The good news is that two things, that the Nicaraguan people remain uh to be a uh a very solid a group of uh evangelicals and Catholic and people that are of great faith. The Nicaraguan people, as I said, along with the Chileans. That's the first um situation that the Murillo and the Ortega Murillo are facing. And the second one is Donald Everyone saw what happened in Venezuela.
▶ 0:18:20Everyone is understanding what's happening in Cuba right now that apparently we're talking to the regime. These are three uh tyrannies. Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Cuba in Western Hemisphere that have not allowed for decades for the faith-based community to flourish and to preach in whichever way they want to. So, the message is very clear from this diocese and from this hearing to Ortega and Murillo.
▶ 0:18:48And I will send them a message in Spanish so they can understand it very well. That their game is over. That I think it's time for them to understand that things are changing in the Western Hemisphere. And the first thing that they should do is not touch those faith-based communities, the Catholics, the evangelicals, or any other, the NGOs that are helping them. That is very clear that they have to change their tune. Otherwise, the United States is going to take care of that because there is a new sheriff in town.
▶ 0:19:17And not only for political reasons, but for religious reasons, for human rights reasons. The the being free to preach and to go to church and do whatever thing you want to on Sundays is not a prerogative that the government gives you. It's something that the Lord has given you for you to go and pray as long as you want to without any type of interference.
▶ 0:19:37So, that's a very clear message which I am going to now relay to specifically Rosario Murillo, who is the devil herself, and who that's why she is guiding her husband not to allow this type of activities to happen on the Nicaraguan
▶ 0:20:36Thank God there is the leader of the White House that understands the importance of the Western Hemisphere, liberty, democracy, free market economy, and religious rights. And we thank you, Chairman, for allowing us to send this message specifically to the Nicaraguan people that have been wanting for the United States to pay attention to them and to give them back those religious freedom, civil rights, human rights that they had for so many years. Thanks again, and I yield back.
▶ 0:21:04Chairwoman Salazar, thank you for that very eloquent statement. As you know, we did joint hearings on Nicaragua We pleaded with Ortega, asked pleads probably too strong of a a word. We wanted to go and visit the bishop when he arrested him and they wouldn't let us in. Where was he? I mean, and we did we did the same thing with the political figures who were all arrested.
▶ 0:21:30So, he had no opposition, he being Daniel Ortega, uh during his election, which was a farce, if ever there was one. Uh Mr. Castro.
▶ 0:21:39Thank you. And thank you to our witnesses for being here today to speak on such a critical the defense of religious freedom around the world. Let me begin by reaffirming a foundational truth. Religious freedom is It's not the domain of one faith, one region, or one political party. It's a right that belongs to everyone, regardless of whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, or belong to no faith at all.
▶ 0:22:06And US foreign policy should reflect that principle clearly and consistently. Unfortunately, under this administration, we're seeing something very different. Unfortunately, the White House has increasingly pursued a narrow, exclusionary vision of religious liberty, one that prioritizes Christian concerns to the near total neglect of other persecuted groups.
▶ 0:22:27Last February, President Trump issued an executive order vowing to quote "eradicate anti-Christian bias in foreign policy." Discrimination against Christians, where it exists, should certainly be something our foreign policy confronts. To do so when we ignore anti-Muslim violence or the repression of indigenous spiritual traditions is religious favoritism, not religious freedom. In April, the State Department ordered its diplomats to report any instances of anti-Christian bias.
▶ 0:22:57Are similar efforts being made on bias against practitioners of other faiths? The answer is no. At the same time, the State Department made a sweeping overhaul of its work on democracy, human rights, and labor, including explicitly integrating Western values into the mission of the When I asked them how they defined Western values, the administration defined it as based on Christianity and Christian theological concepts.
▶ 0:23:24This is clearly unconstitutional and in violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Meanwhile, persecuted minorities across the globe have been abandoned. The administration has deported members from religious minority communities in back to a regime that imprisons and tortures people of faith. It has all but halted public advocacy for the Uyghur Muslims of Xinjiang, ignoring clear evidence of mass internment, forced sterilizations, and religious repression.
▶ 0:23:54And it has withdrawn US support for accountability mechanisms for the genocide of the Rohingya, a Muslim minority in Burma, whose suffering has largely disappeared from the administration's vocabulary. Worse, the administration has revoked temporary protective status for Burma and stated that it's safe for persecuted Rohingya to be sent back to the country that has tried to exterminate them.
▶ 0:24:18This selective silence is not It reflects a deliberate shift in priorities, and it undermines both our credibility and our moral authority. It also is in stark contrast to how previous administrations, including the first Trump administration, approached the international religious freedom And despite the rhetoric and prioritization of Christianity, the administration has prioritized other interests over protecting Christianity.
▶ 0:24:44How else do you explain the spectacle of Tomahawk strikes in Nigeria in the name of protecting Christians while cutting assistance that would actually address discrimination against religious communities? Or the administration's dismissal of persistent challenges that Christian communities in Palestine face from settler violence and restrictions by the Israeli government.
▶ 0:25:07Christian churches in Israel and the Catholic Church in Gaza have been This hearing was initially intended to have a witness from the State Department, former US Representative Mark Walker, who is now the principal advisor on global religious freedom. Instead, at the last minute, the department notified us that Mr. Walker would not testify. The Office of International Religious Freedom has a serious mission to integrate religious freedom into the United States foreign policy.
▶ 0:25:38increasingly, the administration has refused to send State Department witnesses, even for Republican chairwomen and chairmen. This administration has taken the unusual step of deciding not to nominate anyone to be the Senate confirmed Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom, as required by law, and instead named a principal advisor for religious global global religious freedom to lead the office. This raises serious questions. The law is clear.
▶ 0:26:08The Ambassador-at-Large has the responsibility to serve as a principal advisor to the president and the Secretary of State on matters of international religious freedom. The administration is over a year late on releasing the annual religious freedom reports and has not designated as countries of particular concern, apart from Nigeria, as required by law.
▶ 0:26:30Given these deep concerns with the administration's embrace of Christian nationalist rhetoric and the status of the State Department's efforts on international religious freedom, Mr. Walker should be in one of these seats here today, testifying in front of this committee. Mr. Chairman, I hope that we'll be able to schedule that hearing with Mr. Walker soon. I yield back.
▶ 0:26:53We do have a very distinguished group of people who will testify beginning with Ambassador at Large former Ambassador at Large Sam Brownback for religious freedom. In the first Trump administration prior to that he was governor of the state of Kansas. He was the United States Senator and a Congressman. So he can't hold a job. He had all three and he did a magnificent job in each and every one of them.
▶ 0:27:16I would point out that when many of us were concerned about what the Janjaweed was doing in Darfur Sam Brownback Darfur. He was the first lawmaker to do so. I followed a year later as it and Frank Wolf you know was but Sam was there and he helped crystallize international and American opinion about the genocide that was taking place under Bashir in Khartoum.
▶ 0:27:43So Sam that was an amazing and brave undertaking on your part and I can't thank you enough because we all did coalesce you and and began working overtime on that. So I thank you for that. He does serve as co-chair of the International Religious Freedom Summit and as I mentioned Dr.
▶ 0:28:01Lantos Swett also co-chairs with him and together in a bipartisan way and in a way that I think makes a huge difference had virtually every faith denomination imaginable at this summit to really reach out to try to say what can we do to do to try to stop this this terrible repression. We will also then hear from Grace Jin Drexel.
▶ 0:28:31She is the daughter of Pastor Ezra Jin arrested in October of 2025 as part of a brand new of course ongoing under Xi Jinping but a sweeping crackdown of independent Christian churches in China. Ms. Drexel has spoken out publicly numerous times to advocate for her father's release and for countless others detained by the CCP for their faith.
▶ 0:28:54She has previously worked as a professional staff member of the Congressional-Executive Commission on China and she now works in the United States Senate. She thank you for being here. Then we'll hear from Stephen Schneck who served as chair of the US Commission on International Religious Liberty from 2024 to 2025. The Commission Yusuf um he was appointed by President Biden twice. A political philosopher in training, Dr.
▶ 0:29:24Schneck served as a professor, department chair, and dean at the Catholic University of America for over 30 years and received his doctorate at the University of Notre Dame. And And again, the full vitae for each of our distinguished witnesses will be made a part of the record. But um I yield to my good friend and I can't thank him enough for the inspiration he has provided to all of us. Uh Ambassador Brownback.
▶ 0:29:49Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Madam Chairman, ranking members. Uh just delighted to be here in front of you and thank you for hosting this hearing. Uh we just finished up a two-day religious freedom summit where we had uh people from over 80 countries, every major and most minor religions there. It's all centered around one theme, religious freedom for everybody everywhere all the time. My co-chair is here, Dr.
▶ 0:30:11Lantos Swett, just a fabulous uh individual personally and then also a legacy of uh Tom Lantos' daughter and she carries that fire uh on and just does a spectacular job. Mr. Chairman, members of committee uh we are seeing something unprecedented really right now in the world and I've been in this work in this space for some period of time.
▶ 0:30:33There's an alliance of nations that's emerged that see religious freedom as the greatest internal threat to their dictatorial control. Uh this alliance of communist, authoritarian, totalitarian regimes will literally stop at nothing to control people of faith. They see people of faith as faith as a They uh uh often they will attack them first.
▶ 0:31:01And the people of faith are the ones that will be first attacked and the last ones left standing. Uh this also represents an opportunity for us. If we will look at religious freedom not as some sort of uh side reli- side humanitarian issue or a human right, a boutique human right, but would see it as a major global security This represents the best tool, I believe, that we have to go at these regimes
▶ 0:31:32and to attack them in return. And you just look at how much they spend on controlling their people of faith, it should tell you something that that's an area we should look in. Communist China will spend billions of dollars this year alone to suppress every faith that exist in that country.
▶ 0:31:52They'll suppress the Uyghur Muslims, they'll suppress the Tibetan Buddhists, they'll suppress the Christians, and they save their save their greatest anger and uh bile for the Falun Gong, a domestically grown uh group. Um we should see them as our greatest ally. Uh these are uh people behind enemy lines that will stand up to the regime, that will stand up to the oppressors uh they overcome their fear with their interior faith.
▶ 0:32:23They will fight even if it means their life. And often it does mean their life. The amount of Christian um killing around the world is at an all-time high for Christendom. And that can be a repeated I could repeat that statement for a number of faiths now. Why? Why now?
▶ 0:32:44Why is this so much at this point in But that the community of faith has become the target of this dark alliance that we're facing off against and China's the puppet master behind all of they have developed and invested billions of dollars in creating the most sophisticated surveillance technology mankind has ever known by far.
▶ 0:33:10And then they freely share it with other dictatorial regimes that are willing to use the same tools. And we should be deeply concerned about those because that equipment then we're going to face in multiple sets of countries. And they're going to use that to maintain the dictatorships, the authoritarians that are standing against us, that want to remove the United States leadership and the Western leadership. This is unprecedented.
▶ 0:33:38It is really unprecedented and it's a dark hour. The US and other freedom-loving nations must rise to this challenge uh that we're facing today. And this is obviously far beyond any sort of partisan uh interest. We heard people in various countries represent and talk about this at our summit the last 2 days. And I could give you a hundred different examples of every faith community that you would want to hear about uh of this.
▶ 0:34:07In a quick survey of some in the world, you'll see Moscow, I mentioned China, you see Moscow is a lie and allied with Russian Orthodox Church leadership. I don't go with the Russian Orthodox membership, but the leadership working with that to persecute other faith traditions inside of Russia and certainly in the occupied territories that they have of Ukraine. Vietnam is oppressing its Christian population and disfavored Buddhist communities.
▶ 0:34:34Even now in a country like South Korea, we've seen out of favor Christian groups and the leader of the Unification Church have recently been jailed by the government. Japan has some similar Iran's Shia clerical hierarchy is persecuting harshly and lethally all other faiths, especially targeting Baha'is, Christians, and Jews in Iran, and even attacking Muslims of other schools of thought.
▶ 0:35:00In Pakistan, we see the Ahmadi Muslims are often violently attacked as are Christians attacked Nicaragua, the the chairwoman has mentioned and knows it very clearly, kicking out Catholic and Evangelical clerics. And in a in a move reminiscent of the old Soviet days in the former Cold War that we're entering a new one war, you cannot bring a Bible into Nicaragua now. Well, I thought that tactic had been left 30 years ago, but it's back.
▶ 0:35:30And they brought it back in Nicaragua. The new administration in Syria is purging religious minorities, threatening and killing them. These groups groups must be allowed to maintain their own security forces, or I guarantee you today a genocide will happen in Syria like happened in Iraq to the Yazidis and Christians.
▶ 0:35:52And this is a particularly important moment for Syria for us to say that these minority communities must be allowed to protect themselves cuz if they don't, you will get a genocide will happen in Syria of these minority communities. Burma has seen increased Christian persecution along with the ongoing Rohingya genocide in that country.
▶ 0:36:18Early sign warning signs of a Muslim on Christian war are brewing across Africa. This one's going to be a big one, ladies and gentlemen, if we don't get out ahead of this. It's starting in that Lake Chad region, but it will spread throughout that continent. Nigeria is now the deadliest place on the planet to be a Christian. The same time the Nigerian government is seeking and receiving support from countries I previously named, China, Russia, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia. I wonder why.
▶ 0:36:49In India, communal violence against Christian and Muslim communities is increasingly common place. Many other cases of persecution exist as well. North Korea has no religious freedom at all. None. The same is true of Eritrea and Afghanistan, uh where a number of people fled after the Taliban came back into power. Saudi Arabia continues to be the only country on the planet without a single church. An ally of ours.
▶ 0:37:20Religious persecution is actually a symptom of a closing world. A new iron curtain against faith, drawn not just against nations, but against conscience itself. Its antidote is religious freedom. A medicine we must insist upon before it's too late. Religious persecution is not an isolated human rights concern. It is a warning sign that freedom itself is under siege.
▶ 0:37:47When regimes crush faith, they are rehearsing the suppression of every other liberty that follows. History teaches us that appeasing these repressions does not bring stability. Instead, it invites greater aggression and deeper violence. We know this. On the other hand, religious freedom is a stabilizing force, a catalyst for civil society, and a foundation for lasting peace. Mr.
▶ 0:38:17Chairman, Madam Chairman, ranking members, members, the United States has both a moral authority and strategic interest. And I really want to drive that point because this is actually a very strategic issue we must embrace. And we do it might need to lead on this issue. We must insist on religious freedom consistently, unapologetically, and urgently before the space for belief and descent and human dignity closes further for everybody.
▶ 0:38:47And before the cost of inaction becomes far greater than the cost of leadership. Thank you.
▶ 0:38:56Uh thank you so much, uh Mr. Ambassador. Uh Grace Jin Drexel, the floor is yours.
▶ 0:39:03Thank you so much, congressmen and women, um for this opportunity to testify and share my story. My name is Grace Jin Drexel, and on October 10th, 2025, my father, Pastor Ezra Jin, was arrested by the Chinese authorities along with 27 other pastors and church leaders from Zion Church. 18 remain imprisoned today.
▶ 0:39:23This represents the largest crackdown of an independent Christian congregation in China since the Cultural Revolution, a sweep so brazen it has drawn international condemnation, including from Secretary of State Marco Rubio. Many were seized in front of their young children, and my father and several older leaders suffer for from health issues, and we fear for their I urge the Chinese government to release all these Zion members immediately and My father founded Zion Church in 2007
▶ 0:39:54with the simple mission to remain faithful to the scripture and to serve families and communities. The church grew from just two families into China's largest urban house church with more than 1,500 members.
▶ 0:40:07Yet to understand why my father is imprisoned today, you must understand that China under Chairman Xi Jinping has embarked on a a campaign to achieve total state control over religious life beginning in 2016 with the so-called Sinicization This applies to Christians, Catholics, Uyghur Muslims, Tibetans, and other religious groups. We are all persecuted.
▶ 0:40:32In 2008, Zion Church became target because its leadership refused to install 23 facial recognition cameras inside its sanctuary. When they refused, the response was swift. Authorities arrest hundreds of members threatening job loss, evictions, denial of children's education, and even the seizure of parents' retirement Many congregants suffered these consequences for remaining for maintaining their faith.
▶ 0:40:59On October 9th, 2018, met hundreds of police seized the church building and confiscated assets. My father has been placed under an exit ban, separated from our family in the United States for over 7 years. Yet even repression cannot extinguish When Zion Church lost its building, my father and the congregation developed a hybrid online-offline model.
▶ 0:41:23And beyond anyone's wildest imagination, when COVID hit in 2020 and all gatherings were forced to a halt, Zion Church's online model allowed our church gatherings to ex- explode, launching 100 new church plans in 40 cities, and the church grew to its largest size ever, reaching 10,000 individuals daily. Starting in 2025, a new and more severe wave began, clearly coordinated at the national level.
▶ 0:41:50Earlier this year, several Zion Church gatherings in dozens of cities across China were disrupted during Sunday services. Over 150 pastors, elders, and church members have been taken into police station for harassment, threats, interrogation, and brief detention over the following months. The multi-city arrest on the weekend of October 2025 was a coordinated takedown that could only come from centralized government planning.
▶ 0:42:18These are also not isolated cases. In May, Pastor Gaochanfu of Light of Zion Church was detained on fabricated In December, authorities demolished a Yaya Church in Wenzhou. And last month, the Public Security Bureau detained another handful of leaders from a prominent house church, Early Rain Covenant Church. The Chinese government claims that this is about Sinicization, making religion more Chinese. Yet, this is propaganda designed to obscure repression.
▶ 0:42:48Let me be clear, Chinese Christians have been Chinese for generations. We use Chinese Bibles translated by Chinese scholars. We sing indigenous hymns composed by Chinese believers. Our house churches were led by Chinese pastors. My father is Chinese. His congregation is Chinese. Sinicization in practice means removing crosses and replacing them with portraits of Xi Jinping and Mao Zedong. This means replacing hymns with propaganda songs.
▶ 0:43:16It means rewriting scripture to sermons to um to align with party ideology. It means facial recognition cameras monitoring who is worshipping. And it means the government selecting church leaders and dictating theology. What they actually mean is a complete subordination of religious life to Communist Party control. The partyfication of religion is more apt. Church leaders detained in recent months are not opposed to legitimate government authority.
▶ 0:43:46The churches seek to enrich society and live by the principle of rendering on to Caesar's what is Caesar's, but they cannot render on to Caesar's what belongs to God alone. They ask only to be free from the party's control over sacred matters. Like faithful Christians everywhere, they hold on they hold firm, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Since I began advocating for my father, my family has experienced transnational China's practice of threatening critics beyond its borders.
▶ 0:44:15My mother received threatening phone calls from individuals impersonating federal agents. Her tires were slashed inside her garage, and I've been watched and followed in Washington My husband has been targeted by several hacking attempts. China wants the world to know that speaking out carries consequences, even in America.
▶ 0:44:37I am sometimes fearful, yet as a Christian, I believe we are called to courage, trusting that God stands with Similarly, I urge the leaders here today to continue to use your voice and influence in whatever sphere to speak the names of my father, Pastor Ezra Jin, and many other church leaders who have been unjustly imprisoned. Call for the Chinese government to release all Zion Church members immediately and unconditionally, along with other prisoners of conscience.
▶ 0:45:06Do not accept China's trampling of this universal human rights with silence. If left unchecked, Beijing's wave of repression will reverberate around the world. What is happening in China is not merely a domestic matter, but a global threat to religious freedom and human dignity. Authoritarian leaders from around the world will only be emboldened by our As a Christian, I also draw strength from knowing that my God is a good God.
▶ 0:45:35Despite not knowing why this is happening, I believe that these darkest will be used for a larger purpose. As my father wrote in prison, God has indeed used his power to uphold us. I believe God is also testing us during this time, like refining silver, painful, but full of love. And that God has not abandoned us. Thank
▶ 0:45:59Thank you so very, very much in Your father would be so proud of as to how you so tenaciously uh advocate for his freedom and the freedom of all those who are unjustly detained. So, thank you so much. Uh Dr.
▶ 0:46:15Thank you. Chairman Smith, Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member Jacobs, Ranking Member Castro, and distinguished members. It's a privilege to be here to testify on these important matters. Since my written testimony is extensive this morning, I will just make some critical points. Most importantly, as you just heard from Ambassador Brownback, we face an unprecedented global crisis for freedom of religion.
▶ 0:46:44Many millions of people around the world are being denied the freedom to practice their faith and are persecuted because of what they believe or what they don't The crisis is inseparable from the retreat of liberal democracy and the global rise of authoritarianism. The crisis is also driven by the political weaponization of religion by religious nationalism.
▶ 0:47:08Likewise, it is associated with the erosion of the multinational world order based on human rights, international laws, international organizations that has been led by the United States and its allies since the end of the Second World War. And that erosion is a key factor in the increasing number of failed and failing states unable to protect the religious freedom of their citizens.
▶ 0:47:36Distinguished members, since 1998, the United States framework for protecting and promoting international religious freedom uh international freedom of religion or belief has been the Earth Act.
▶ 0:47:51That bipartisan act drafted amidst the triumph of liberal democracy and the multinational world order following the collapse of Soviet communism reflects more than ever the vision that is today needed to promote and protect religious freedom around the world.
▶ 0:48:09Holding up as it does the ideals of universal human rights international law and international I worry, however that the current administration may be looking for a different approach. Let me be specific about my worries.
▶ 0:48:30First international religious freedom has been subordinated to transactional foreign to a transactional foreign which emphasizes bilateral deals and economic leverage over values-based Too often we see governments with poor records on freedom of religion around the world freedom of religion facing limited pressure when they are viewed as strategic partners.
▶ 0:48:57Effectively protecting freedom of religion around the world depends on what was once called nation-building. I believe nation-building has few advocates currently. as of this writing the State Department has not yet released last year's 2024 IRF report now nearly a year overdue. Ostensibly the 2025 IRF report should be released in May. But will it?
▶ 0:49:26Moreover, the administration has not made its designations of countries of particular concern, special watch list, or entities of particular concern. And President Biden's 2023 designations have of course now lapsed. Let me note as well that two Republican seats on the US Commission on International Religious Freedom have remained unfilled for more than a year.
▶ 0:49:53Third, at variance from the Earth Act, it appears the administration will not name an ambassador-at-large for international religious freedom. While I welcome the appointment of former Congressman Walker as principal advisor for global religious freedom, without the title of ambassador, the authority of that office is unclear. Likewise, it is unclear at this time of a special advisor for international religious freedom on the National Security Council will be named as is outlined in the Earth Act.
▶ 0:50:24Fourth, institutional support for advancing religious freedom has been While senior officials senior figures enthuse about international religious freedom in speeches, the issue has not consistently translated into coordinated action across the State Department, National Security Council, and foreign foreign assistance agencies.
▶ 0:50:47Where religious freedom mechanisms do they often lack sufficient authority, staffing, or integration into broader foreign policy decision-making. Doge cuts decimated many important programs and staff supporting international religious freedom.
▶ 0:51:06Finally, the administration's approach has focused over much on religious freedom interests of particular religious constituencies, especially Although Christians face really unbelievable persecution in many regions. Freedom of religion cannot be construed to mean only a subset of approved religions.
▶ 0:51:27International religious freedom as defined in human rights law and treaties to which the United States is a signatory is universal. Selective advocacy undermines both effectiveness and legitimacy. Distinguished members, the press the prescient vision of the framers of the Earth Act recognized the responsibility of the United States to lead the international community in promoting and protecting freedom of religion or belief.
▶ 0:51:57Today that freedom is in crisis around the world. Millions are persecuted for what they believe or what faith they practice. Given the current crisis, the United States must rededicate rededicate itself to the vision of the Earth Act. Thank
▶ 0:52:15Thank you. Chair recognizes Chairwoman
▶ 0:52:19Thank you to the three witnesses and specifically to you, Madam Drexel. May the Lord help your dad while he is in jail and to endure whatever he's going through. May the Lord give him I mean strength and you know how noble and laudable the fact that he is in jail because of his faith and his religious beliefs. So, our prayers go out to him.
▶ 0:52:45And uh to Ambassador Brownback, I I love what you said about the fact that um the one of the best tools that the Chinese are using uh in order to maintain themselves in power and to repress people is by taking away their uh rights to to preach or to or to go to church or be in the faith-based space. So, I would like you to share with us you know how much are the Chinese spending? Who are they sharing that technology with?
▶ 0:53:15Has that technology arrived, let's say, in Nicaragua in the Western Hemisphere? Can you just expand a little bit more on You said that they have the the best surveillance technology to repress religious freedoms in the world. So, that means that they have brought this to scientific levels where people forget God in order not to die. So, please, thank you.
▶ 0:53:39Thank you for the question and and literally it's a war on God. Uh that phrase came out at our summit this week and I thought that's actually what's taking place. there's a whole Psalm on that says God laughs, but I'm not laughing. Uh we I've got a book coming out in May on this on China's war on faith.
▶ 0:54:05when we wrote when the book had been written and uh it's at the publishers now, it was in 80 countries, the various surveillance technologies and various iterations of it. they under Chen Quanguo, just a brief history, Chen Quanguo was the party chairman over Tibet initially 20 years ago. He's the guy that they first sent to implement these sort of techniques of suppression of a religion. They did it on the Tibetans first.
▶ 0:54:34He was so effective they moved into Xinjiang, which is East Turkestan, the the Turkish people population, and said this is going to be tougher and they gave him more money. And he combined old and new techniques there, both a digital uh gulag uh and they actually had gulags and prison camps. They're They've now transitioned to labor camps. The actual number of the amount of money spent, I don't have in front of me. Adrian Zenz would be a great source for this.
▶ 0:55:04He works for the Victims of Communism Foundation, has been one of the best researchers, but it's in the billions that they use this with. The thing that concerns me about it the most is twofold. One is they literally now can find a needle in a haystack. They can find that one person out of 100,000 that will actually lead people against a regime that's that's driven by their faith. They can pinpoint that person and get him or her.
▶ 0:55:33The The second is the ability to to target ideology. Now you can really drill in and teach people the lie on a very effective targeted basis. Uh so you you get these two together and then you give them to a whole bunch of other authoritarian regimes. They can take out the problem and they can drill in the lie to people on a broad basis with the and no new technology needs to be invented.
▶ 0:56:02That's why I'm saying that we really got to act on these things now. But you act through these people that are people of faith and back them. Back Have the vice president, the uh secretary of state go to Dharamsala, India uh and meeting with the Dalai Lama and saying, "We are behind you guys." Bring the head of Falun Gong, the the the the gentleman that that brought Falun Gong out, who's now exiled in the United States, bring him here and and laud them for what they have done in standing up
▶ 0:56:32and trying to bring ancient Chinese civilization back. Recognize that Tibet uh has never been a part of China. It is not There's a book just out now. It came out last week. Uh NED backed it. It's 1,100 pages all off of Chinese Imperial Records that say Tibet is not part of China. And the only sourcing is Chinese Imperial Records.
▶ 0:57:00It's not a part of China no more than Kazakhstan was a part of Russia. And East Turkistan uh is not theirs. They're not Chinese. Um I I think we've really got to start just pulling the layers off and calling it calling it what it is.
▶ 0:57:16What about the Western Hemisphere? What type of influence have you seen from the Chinese brought to and then with that
▶ 0:57:23Ortega got much worse when he walked away from the relationship with Taiwan that Nicaragua had and embraced PRC. I don't know that money he's getting. I am certain he's getting money. And that's when they started really going after the Catholic Church and the evangelicals.
▶ 0:57:38besides the money? Any any new technology that you have seen in Nicaragua that you haven't seen or any other part of the Western Hemisphere that you did not see before being used to really repress to scientific levels?
▶ 0:57:50Yeah, I don't have the specifics that I can give you on that today. I know the relationships are there. I know that has changed attitudes cuz the Ortegas used to be kind of okay with the Catholic
▶ 0:58:02and the evangelicals. They're not anymore.
▶ 0:58:05Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 0:58:08Mr. Jacobs.
▶ 0:58:10Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I want to start first with our foreign policy toolkit. Over the years, uh USIRF has included in its annual recommendations to support civil society in countries of particular concern to promote religious I agree with this recommendation. Um unfortunately, the Trump administration's foreign assistance review terminated millions of dollars worth of programs supporting defenders of religious freedom. Dr.
▶ 0:58:33Schneck, can you share what you've observed over the years as the US has supported religious freedom defenders abroad, whether it's in Afghanistan, Iran, Burma, elsewhere? What kind of impact does this have on religious freedom globally?
▶ 0:58:50Thank you for the question, uh I don't have the specific numbers, you know, at my fingertips. So, I I can't speak at the level of numbers, but I can that the programs of USAID, programs at the Department of State, um some programs at the US Institute of Peace, I mean, even programming, for example, by Voice of America, these programs, uh nation-building programs, frankly, have been a critical uh component of the United States effort to promote
▶ 0:59:20religious freedom abroad. Um you see that uh yeah, I mean, I, for example, have have visited the um the you know the horrible Rohingya refugee camps on the Cox's Bazar in in Bangladesh. You know the funding for those camps through UNHCR and IOM and and so forth that that that funding largely came from the United States and that funding of course is no longer a present at the amounts that it was available before.
▶ 0:59:49And it you know if you look at these camps these are are situations dire dire situations. And and and frankly from the perspective of US foreign policy concerns these are are populations that are capable of radicalization without the kind of support that was coming to them before. So around the world I use this I use Bangladesh I pardon me I use this camp in Bangladesh as as an example.
▶ 1:00:17So around the world the funding that the United States government has been providing for humanitarian assistance for the development of civil society for the promotion of interfaith relations that that money has largely withered and dried up as a result of the dodge cuts you know that we've seen and so I'm very concerned about what that means for you know for the future of the our efforts in that in in those areas.
▶ 1:00:41I appreciate that. I want to turn now to Nigeria our subcommittee held multiple over the past few years on the topic as you know in November President Trump threatened to deploy the US military quote guns a blazing into Nigeria to completely wipe out the Islamic terrorists there stating that if we attack it will be fast vicious and sweet. And as you know over Christmas the United States conducted strikes in coordination with Nigerian authorities against supposed ISIS terrorists in Sokoto state in Nigeria. Dr.
▶ 1:01:10Schneck in your view do you believe the strikes over Christmas effectively improved religious freedom challenges in Nigeria? Why or why not?
▶ 1:01:19No I do not. in fact it it occurs to me that the cost of the Tomahawk missiles that were sent probably exceeded the amount of money that had previously been going to Nigeria to improve interfaith relations and provide humanitarian assistance. So, it's it's very concerning to me.
▶ 1:01:37In fact, I suspect really that you know, strikes like that to the extent that they have any effect any effect at all would likely drive some of these more militant organizations together in greater unity and perhaps mobilize them in the future. So, I think that the the strike was a mistake.
▶ 1:01:53Thank you. And and could you talk a little bit about what you see as the primary drivers of religious freedom violations in Nigeria and how the United States should most effectively work with the Nigerian government to address those
▶ 1:02:05It's a very complicated situation to be honest with you. There are a number of things happening. Um one, of course, we do have terrorist organizations operating in on the ground in in Nigeria, Boko Haram and ISWAP. Uh we have uh Fulani herders being driven out of the Sahel essentially, moving their cattle into areas agricultural areas that are are are you know, displacing farmers and driving farmers into IDP camps.
▶ 1:02:35Uh we have extraordinary amount of banditry going on. We have organized crime going on and we have a corrupt and frankly a failing government uh in Nigeria that's incapable of providing the basic police services and judicial services that are necessary to maintain
▶ 1:02:52Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:02:56Let me just ask a couple of questions. You know, my friend Mr. Castro talked about the fact that we do not have a ambassador at large, but Mark Walker was nominated in June of of 2025. Uh and we all know how frustrated we get with the United States Senate. Uh they put holds on various uh, nominees and as well as on bills and legislation.
▶ 1:03:18Uh, I am the one who wrote the law to create the special envoy for combating anti-Semitism, and the ambassador at large there, uh, Yehuda uh, Caplan, uh, he was held up uh, for and it was a bipartisan bill I did. He was nominated and he sat over in the Senate for seemingly an eternity before he has been confirmed. So, he's now on the job. Uh, so there is that problem of the Senate.
▶ 1:03:46I know with all due respect Senator you served there, but it it you know, one person could put a hold on it uh, and then that can have the capability of of just stopping everything in its tracks. So, you know, I think um, Congressman Walker would have been a great ambassador at large. I do hope that there's a uh, a replacement you know, for his nomination uh, ASAP. I would also point out that you know, I was here in this room when we did the the bill, the law, the Frank Wolf's bill. I held all the hearings on it.
▶ 1:04:15Right here in this room occasionally in 2200, but mostly in this room. The Clinton administration was very much against it, but thank God he signed it uh, at the very, very end, you know, it was like uh, you know, some of his advisor I'm sure said you know, this is a good thing. And there have been good ambassadors uh, of course Sam Brownback in my opinion is one of the best of the best uh, that we've ever had and um, you know, Rabbi um, um, um, Saperstein was also a tremendous ambassador.
▶ 1:04:45We had many hearings with him during the Obama years, but during the Obama years we did not get for several years recommendations for CPC. And I would say it says you got to do it um, Mr. President and um, you know, Rabbi Saperstein I'm sure you know, he didn't want to cross his boss, but he was all in accord with that as well. That send up so we are asking the administration to send up designations for CPC. USCIRF continually makes very, very good recommendations as to who should be on it. Nigeria has been on that list time and time again.
▶ 1:05:16It was ignored during the Biden administration. As a matter of fact, they reversed what was done vis-a-vis Nigeria. They take them off and I asked our Secretary of State under the last what's the criteria? You know, we've got Christians who are being slaughtered. And when you focus on Christians, it's never at the exclusion of everyone else or even anyone else. You know, I've been all over Nigeria as have many of my colleagues. I've met with many imams there.
▶ 1:05:43They get targeted if they're So, you know, it's it's almost like Hamas. You know, you wonder why it's a child soldier factory because when you're very young and being inculcated in you then act on it. But, you know, try fighting against it, you know, in that close space. Same way and I had imams tell me, and I'm not going to name them because they'll probably be firebombed if I do, by Boko Haram and by others that if they speak out, they will be firebombed just like the Christian churches.
▶ 1:06:11I went to five churches that were firebombed in Jos, Nigeria, with the with the bishop there, Kay Gama. And when we talked when I talked and he was there with many of these survivors, they were targeted because they were Christians. Ditto for the Fulani. Anyone who doesn't think that yeah, there are other mitigating or other circumstances contributing to it, but there's no doubt that there's a bias and a hatred for Christians by radical Muslims, by jihadists, not by non- radical.
▶ 1:06:41They they you know, I've worked very closely with a number of leaders in Nigeria who were Muslims when they're at the United Nations and they're tremendous people. One guy named Sarki, who was just a tremendous number two over at the embassy. We know that. But, we got to call out the bad guys.
▶ 1:06:57And when when you get open doors, which has itself you know, they they have stood up for Christians all over the world, particularly in the Soviet You know, I remember working with this founder who wrote, you know, whatever he was a he used to bring Bibles into the East Block and into the Soviet Union.
▶ 1:07:18You know, I'm I'm we I you say all of us we speak out for every one of the Every single one of them with no I resent when anybody suggests that we do otherwise cuz we don't do otherwise. We believe the Christians need to be I mean I've had 107 congressional hearings on human rights in China. We've had them Tibetan Buddhists. We've had them on the Falun Gong. Several I had the first resolution on the Falun Gong.
▶ 1:07:44You know, cuz we all know in the past in the house because they were being targeted by by the Chinese dictatorship for elimination. So we did but we can't leave out the Christians and that's been part of the problem. They have been left behind for far too long. There was a again this was our Rabbi Saperstein, good friend. Really tremendous leader. He went to Vietnam and there was a pastor, Pastor Chin, who was incarcerated from Just a tremendous pastor.
▶ 1:08:14His wife met with Rabbi Saperstein. She was beaten to a pulp. Very serious consequences and she had to sign something with the Chinese with the Vietnamese Communist Party renouncing it and saying that her meeting was illegal. Rabbi Saperstein told us all about it. You know, I'm I'm trying to get Vietnam on the CPC list for years. Three times the Vietnam Human Rights Act has passed.
▶ 1:08:44It's my bill, totally bipartisan with my friends on the other side of the aisle and always was blocked over in the US Senate with a hold. But right in that it calls for CPC designation for Vietnam. They are going, you know, forced conversions, all the other things that they do there. I met with the the top Buddhist in in in in Saigon. I can't call it Ho Chi Minh City in Saigon. He's under pagoda arrest.
▶ 1:09:12And he's we spent hours talking. And he said, "If I walk out this door." Meaning him. The Venerable Thich Quang Do. The police that are right across the street will go in there and they'll punch him and they'll push him back in. I mean, we've constantly, as did you when you were ambassador as you Steve Dr. Schneck, we speak out for everybody. But we can't exclude the Christians who have been targeted very very horrifically.
▶ 1:09:38So, I just want I do want and hope we get that list of CPC countries yesterday. It's got to come. But again, Mark Walker, who's a pastor himself, would have been a great ambassador and you know, more needs to be done. No doubt about it. Finally, I did say it but I'll say it again. I had hearings with Obama, with his people. After 3 years, we still hadn't got the list of CPC countries. I said, "Please, send them up." You know, why why why aren't they here?
▶ 1:10:08You know, you know, you may disagree on who should be on the list. That's that's your call. But please send up a list. They wouldn't. So, we got to all do a better job and Sam, if you could just speak again to Mr. Ambassador to you know, some of the outcomes of your conference cuz that is why we wanted to have this meeting, especially this hearing. You know, calls to action, what we need to be doing, maybe some of the missed opportunities that we need to double down on. If you could.
▶ 1:10:37There was a lot of calls to action. There was some nice announcements of action. Pepperdine University announced that they're working with a series of African judicial leaders. These would be chief justices in various African countries to come up with an alternate dispute resolution mechanism between people of faith. So, to get moderate Muslims that would be willing to with Christian leaders to try to start an alternate dispute resolution process. I'm going, "Great.
▶ 1:11:04That would be fabulous if we could get see that work cuz you're going to be in a full-scale war zone in middle of Africa before long with militant Islam attacking the Christians that's taking place there. It is already started. It's in Nigeria. That's really what you're seeing right now.
▶ 1:11:21And it is Huntington's Clash of Civilizations that you're witnessing there right now." We just had an announcement today that will come later to later today that the administration with Hungary helps that does target particularly Christians but not exclusively Christians for aid in various places around the world that there will be an announcement of the United States government joining and certain areas of ways that they can help as they I think start to reconstitute the aid programs and what they're going to do with it.
▶ 1:11:49That was just announced took place this morning was one that that they came forward with. The other thing that I really want to draw your attention to that everybody's behind. We've got an advocacy day today is the transnational virtually everybody not everybody everybody that was there most of the people that were there at our summit know somebody or they themselves have experienced transnational oppression as Grace Jin Directo and her family
▶ 1:12:19has. This is highly common anymore and it's really something we've got to get on top Dr. Tang that you would know and a number of people at the beginning of our conference was announced by the Vietnamese government that he is an international terrorist and they're putting out an arrest for his a war a warrant for his arrest and if he travels in a country that they have agreement with that he's to be arrested. This has to be stopped.
▶ 1:12:50This this has to stop. And then one other thing that was coming forward, um the Mexican government in working with and too much influenced by cartels in threatening the Catholic Church when they help people and they lift up folks that have been missing.
▶ 1:13:11There are now over 100,000 people, 120,000 people officially missing in Mexico and the church tries to help the family and they were going to be coming here to testify to speak about it, uh and the church was told not to come. Not to come. And you're going to This has to stop. This has to stop.
▶ 1:13:38Uh Mr. Castro. Ambassador Brownback, the International Religious Freedom Act requires the State Department to publish an annual report on international religious freedom. And what I ask you, you know, you used to lead the effort to compile and publish these reports. Can you walk us through how important they are and why they're essential?
▶ 1:13:59I They They are an essential report. It's the it's the primary factual setting and basis for much of the world on religious persecution that's happening throughout the world. Um I believe the administration will get it out soon. It isn't unusual representing for it to be late. That's a pretty common thing.
▶ 1:14:22It was due on March 1st.
▶ 1:14:23What's that?
▶ 1:14:24It was due on March 1st of 2024.
▶ 1:14:26I know and we used to see it it be late 6 months, a year. I I'm not excusing it. It needs to get out. I hope it will get out soon uh and it's an important document.
▶ 1:14:38All right. Thank you. Uh Dr. Schneier had a question for you. You know, for the last few years I've been concerned by increasing pressure on the Christian community in Palestine, including in Jerusalem. Christian communities have been attacked by extremist settlers, often uh wearing the IDF uniform, or at least supported by IDF as they're committing these acts. Land controlled by churches in and around Jerusalem have been threatened by legal action.
▶ 1:15:10And as I mentioned earlier, the one Catholic Church in Gaza has been bombed. I've spoken with members of the Catholic, American Orthodox, and Greek Orthodox communities who tell me the situation has not improved. By no means are Christians facing this challenge alone, this threat alone. Uh Palestinian Muslims and others face similar similar challenges to their continued presence in Palestine and the continued practice of religion. Uh so how would how should the United States approach the situation?
▶ 1:15:39Uh it is a situation that it doesn't get much discussion in Congress. In fact, some of the strongest voices for religious freedom are absolutely silent on this issue. And do you believe that US Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee is doing enough?
▶ 1:16:01Uh thank you for the easy question, uh Congressman. Uh you know, it's just recently the uh Christian patriarchs of Jerusalem, in fact, issued uh an extraordinary uh statement indicating their great concern about the situation, uh you know, facing Christians, um particularly in the Jerusalem area and areas in which um settlers uh
▶ 1:16:31have a have a uh significant presence. So I'm of course very familiar with the situation as it as it relates to the the Christians there. And I and I and I know, uh like all of us about the I think it was the shelling of the Christian church in God the Catholic Church in Gaza during during the during the IDF's operations in that I I do think that it's complicated to talk with a an important ally like
▶ 1:17:01Israel about the situation where we find Israel itself not being sufficiently active in protecting the rights of minority religions within its territory. But if we can't talk to our allies, if we can't make policies to deal with our allies, how can we say that we're speaking truth to all of the other powers around the world.
▶ 1:17:29I think I think among friends these conversations need to be had and need to be serious and we need to make a statement. As for Ambassador Huckabee, I I don't know enough specifics about his actions to
▶ 1:17:43Sure. No, and I appreciate that and you know, we have made efforts over the years to combat anti-Christianity around the world, anti-Semitism as we should around the world. But this discussion particularly around Israel and Gaza and the West Bank and so forth continues to be a third rail issue in the American Congress to the detriment of many who are suffering. I think that we should be able to speak about religious freedom around the world including in Israel and every other nation. So, with that I yield back to
▶ 1:18:13Mr. Schiff.
▶ 1:18:15Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I appreciate the expertise and the time from our witnesses. I am a new member this term from Indiana. I have other freshman members to either side of me. Uh I am not an expert in this area. I haven't I haven't applied my career in this space as many of you have and as some of my colleagues behind me do.
▶ 1:18:44I represent a district in the middle of Indiana that extends uh into a number of rural counties, ag counties, uh but people would be surprised to learn that in my home county I've got 35,000 uh Burmese Chin neighbors.
▶ 1:19:00Many have of whom uh left Burma in the '70s, persecuted Christians, mostly Baptists, that cannot go home and that very much remain threatened. And these are neighbors in my backyard.
▶ 1:19:23We think of them as citizens, neighbors, friends, uh but they're refugees in that they are disconnected from their families and those families remain prosecuted, uh Burma's on the CPC list and it has been for a very long time. As a new member, I had the opportunity to go to Nigeria 6 weeks ago, uh Representative Jacobs and Representative Huizenga, who uh were with us earlier, were on that trip.
▶ 1:19:53Edifying for me, Sobering in the sense that in part that 36 hours after we left, missiles came into the country. Uh I met uh Nigeria's Christian, his uh his wife, the first lady, is on the hill today. So, you know, it's a diverse country.
▶ 1:20:17Uh was on the CPC list in the first Trump administration, off in the Biden administration, I believe uh Dr. uh uh Snekk, back on again. my very candid not leading question for any of you is as I look at the the way that the CPC designation works or moreover doesn't seem to me to work.
▶ 1:20:45If I look at the very long-term uh folks in Burma as I see that designation added removed added again this past October in Nigeria.
▶ 1:21:01What's the appropriate potential escalation tool that our government can use bring to bear with countries clearly clearly don't respect religious freedoms from within?
▶ 1:21:25Um let me take a Thank you for raising uh the Burmese situation. So, I think this is one that's under viewed and needs to really be addressed a lot uh a lot more. And the Burmese are being attacked and now they're not only being attacked by the military junta, they're being bombed by Chinese uh planes as China pushes its way into the Indian Ocean. So, this is now a strategic issue. I think it's it's fine we should use CPC. We need to put that out.
▶ 1:21:55But until you put some bite into it, until there you get a hold of the money or you use weaponry or something most of these dictator dictators, they're just going to thumb their nose at you. So, you really have got to go at them, use Magnitsky sanctions against the individuals. You need to do use targeted sanctions against the government, ones that hurt the areas that the government controls and not others. Uh and then I I think you just need to make them really a pariah in the international sphere.
▶ 1:22:25Interestingly in Xi Jinping's parade of dictators that he had in the country last year, he had I don't know, 23 dictators, Burmese military junta was there. and you know, if that doesn't tell you something just right on the surface, you but you got to grab something they actually care about. During Bush era, we had a series of sanctions that we'd put on Burma that were pretty effective and I think those ought to be put back on.
▶ 1:22:57If If I could add, unfortunately, the CPC designation, as all the designations, really end up being little more than name and shame. We really need to think about connecting real sanctions with the CPC designation. Uh Ambassador Brownback mentioned the Magnitsky Act. Uh things sanctions of that level connected to the CPC, I think, would be an important addition.
▶ 1:23:21Thank you. My time's expired. I appreciate those responses.
▶ 1:23:24We can deal just briefly. Uh the beauty of the IRFA bill, as you and Frank Wolf was genius in doing this and including setting up the corresponding organization or US F, so that there'd be a check and a balance, was to have first a designation and then the meting out of sanctions, which, unfortunately, no matter who's in the White House, uh have been lackluster.
▶ 1:23:48Um I'm happy to say, vis-à-vis the um Nigeria situation, there is now conditionality on aid. Half of it is held back to to try to get uh some compliance with the principles, but 18 or so uh starting with a simple démarche, but also very serious sanctions that are there in uh the quiver that could be used, and we're hoping that they will be used.
▶ 1:24:14Um the only time that there was a an effort to use one sanction in terms of denying a visa, and that was in the bill, was against Modi in India for his alleged, and I think there was real credibility to it, slaughter of Muslims. So, there's there's you know, there's these tools that just need to be used.
▶ 1:24:34Uh but, I thank my friend, and uh and uh you know, it was Tom Lantos who wrote the Jade Act in 2008, uh targeting the and his daughter's here again, targeting what the junta was doing. So, and then the sanctions that Sam talked about. I'd like to now yield uh to Mr. Oshesky.
▶ 1:24:52Well, thank you, Chairman Smith, and thank you to our ranking members for holding this hearing. I want to thank our witnesses for joining us, as well, Uh as a man of faith, I feel an obligation to point out the stark moral contradiction that we're facing as a Pam Fro Pam Pope Francis often cited the parable of the Good Samaritan from the Gospel of Luke. A story of a wounded traveler whose life is saved by the compassion and kindness of a passerby.
▶ 1:25:21That story captures a vision of a church whose first instinct is to bind wounds, lift the fallen, and stand with the vulnerable. It's an It's a vision that I believe is embodied by the new Pope, Pope Leo, who is who served among the poor in Peru. For me, that parable is not a metaphor.
▶ 1:25:40It's a call to see that every child vulnerable to disease, every mother denied basic health care, every refugee without clean water as that wounded traveler. Our mission to alleviate suffering must be rooted in compassion, in service, and a deep moral responsibility to love our neighbor just as Jesus did, no matter where they live, what language they speak, or what religion they profess.
▶ 1:26:08That's why I believe religious freedom cannot be separated from our lived A community that is starving, a health clinic that is shuttered, a generation of children denied quality education, is a community where extremism, instability, and persecution is much more likely to take root. While we're discussing religious freedom around the world, we do so against the backdrop of an administration that has slashed the very foreign assistance that helps keep vulnerable religious minorities alive.
▶ 1:26:38Reports indicate that the administration has destroyed food and other essential supplies that could have been distributed instead to those in need. An independent study co-authored by UCLA warns that US foreign aid cuts may lead to more than 14 million additional deaths globally by 2030, including four and a half million children under the age of five.
▶ 1:27:05These are children of God who will die of diseases we know how to prevent, mothers lost in childbirth, and families devastated by illnesses that could have been treated with basic medicine. Medicine, in some cases, that we have now destroyed. If we take the call to be good Samaritans seriously, we must understand that our policy choices can either bind wounds, as Jesus did, or walk past them. Uh Dr. Schneck, I'm going to open with you.
▶ 1:27:33We know that many churches, mosques, and other faith communities overseas are the ones running those clinics, caring for the sick, and comforting families. I'm curious to get your thoughts on how our policies can better support those local faith efforts, so that our commitment to the religious freedom we're talking about today is matched with a commitment to the physical well-being of those communities.
▶ 1:27:57Thank you, Congressman. And, you know, as you know, as you know, the programs that you're talking about have largely been defunded uh currently. And, you know, as a result, organizations that relied on those funds to provide not just humanitarian assistance, but assistance to develop interfaith relations, assistance to develop civil society.
▶ 1:28:19Those things that that those cuts, I think, are potentially potentially devastating for the protection of religious freedom around the world. Uh you know, and I think in my own faith as a Roman Catholic, I I very supportive of an organization called Catholic Relief Services, which provided humanitarian assistance around the world, not just to Roman Catholics, not just to Christians, but to people of all faith.
▶ 1:28:45A good number of their programs have been significantly underfunded now because of because of the cuts that the federal government has made in cooperation with Catholic Relief Services. So, I share your concerns that those cuts are in fact a threat to religious freedom around the world, and I very much hope that this Congress will work to restore some of that funding.
▶ 1:29:10I appreciate that. I know that my time is winding down, but I I guess I'll just close by reinforcing for me I I find myself wondering how for me as a follower of Jesus, as other religions with similar beliefs, how are we letting that example and letting those faith examples be a guide for how we approach caring for vulnerable people beyond our borders. And I I think that this conversation is important, but it's also not happening in a vacuum, and then we have to sort of look at the whole person if we want to be able to address this critical issue.
▶ 1:29:40I thank you all for your testimony and for your work in this space, and I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
▶ 1:29:45Mr. Huizenga.
▶ 1:29:46Mr. Chairman. Uh thank you, um Mr. Chairman. Um I Sorry, I've been been been running around a little bit. Actually, this is the second time today I had a chance to talk about uh sort of religious persecution and what has been going on. Uh I would be remiss remiss I'd be remiss if I didn't say hello Mr. Brownback.
▶ 1:30:11You won't remember me, but I was Peter Hoekstra's district director back in the day who was a very good friend. I sat in many a meeting and on many a phone call as I drove Peter around. So I knew the ambassador before he was senator and while he was in the house. good to good to see you again and I appreciate your work over the years that that you have done.
▶ 1:30:35Um, I want to hit on very briefly I want to hit on Syria and then I would like to touch on on on Nigeria and if we have time to bet in Nepal actually and Cox's Bazar that situation. Those are all fall under under my purview as chair of South Central Asia subcommittee on the on the Foreign Affairs Committee.
▶ 1:30:57So to Syria here in the context of mass violence against Druze, Alawites, Christians, Kurdish communities in Syria following the collapse of the Assad regime and the emergence of a of a fragmented HTS aligned governing authority. I'm curious sorry my mind it's still senator, but ambassador I'll start with you. How would you assess the current religious freedom conditions in Syria?
▶ 1:31:25Very problematic, very troubling and if we don't get it right we're going to have a genocide. I think you have to allow those communities to have their own security. They have to be able to provide their own security or you're going to set up for a genocide just like we did in Iraq when we didn't provide that for the Yazidis and the Christians. You had a genocide a few years later. So right now is really key that the United States press the Syrian government this government that's in place right now.
▶ 1:31:55One Syria we're not talking about breaking Syria up, but the people there the Druze, the Alawites, the Christians have to be able to provide their own security. You have to be able to be in charge. And currently they're not allowed.
▶ 1:32:07What's that?
▶ 1:32:08And currently they are not allowed.
▶ 1:32:10Not in most of the areas. Now, in some they are. And the Kurds need to be able The Kurds are our best allies. We've got to keep standing with the Kurds. They will protect religious minorities. And they need to be able to have their own security. That that to me is something we have to push as a US government. And you got to do it now. Uh while it's still a active issue.
▶ 1:32:30Uh many of us struggled a bit, quite honestly, with the repeal of the 2019 uh Caesar Syria um uh civilian protection act. I I did vote With the proviso that we would be doing robust oversight. And fortunately, um our full committee is going to be taking a closer look at uh the post-Assad Syria in a hearing next week. Um so, please continue to give us uh that that feedback.
▶ 1:32:57And my my general take is uh to to take the Ronald Reagan trust, but verify, and maybe expand it. I would say in this case, sort of trust, and definitely verify. Um because I I think we have not seen a very good uh track record. Um uh Nigeria. Uh I want to speak briefly. And I ha- happened to lead uh the delegation uh that uh was there December 19th through the 22nd. I wouldn't recommend trying to get to Nigeria over the weekend. But we did it.
▶ 1:33:27Uh we uh but we had to because of what was going on. And uh I I'm curious, what measures have you seen the government of Nigeria take to address religiously motivated violence against Christians, uh especially in the mid- in the middle belt? Um uh I may have a little different uh view of that strike than my uh than my colleague who was on the trip uh as well. And I appreciated her input and her time with that.
▶ 1:33:52Uh but uh what what do you think the impact has been so far in in lowering the uh the threat level?
▶ 1:34:01I I really appreciate the attack in that it it got Nigeria back on the agenda. The Christians have been getting killed now for years.
▶ 1:34:11got their attention.
▶ 1:34:12So, you finally got their attention. I do not trust this Nigerian government. They've broken their long-standing way of do a practice where they would have a president that was of one faith, Muslim or Christian, and a a vice president of the other faith. When I first went over and traveled there, you had president that was a Muslim and a vice president Christian trying to balance. This one said, "Nope, we're both Muslims." And they're behind the Fulani. Now, they will say no.
▶ 1:34:39President Tinubu is Fulani and or I'm sorry, Ribadu, the head of the NSA is Fulani. I don't believe that Tinubu is Fulani. I'm
▶ 1:34:45I just I not only trust but verify, but we you've got to now go at putting systems in place to where the the Christians are going to be able to be protected themselves or the states can provide that protection instead of the federal entity. Again, it becomes back that fundamental security issue, and this government has not given us any reason to the Nigerian government to trust them.
▶ 1:35:10Uh my my time is expired. I I appreciate this. I I was hoping to get to Tibet and Nepal and and uh the Schnek had mentioned Cox's Bazar, but I appreciate your work and uh Mr. Drexel, uh please send our regards to your father and all those that uh are are under the thumb of the CCP uh and uh and their efforts uh to to quash those of a religious belief. So, uh with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:35:41Thank you. Chairman Smith has actually gone to meet with the president of Congo and in his stead has given me the honor of of chairing the committee. So, I thank him for that. Um I'll now recognize myself for for 5 minutes. Um I believe the greatest threat to religious freedom in the world is the rise of mainstream Islam. And I call it mainstream Islam because I think we're calling it radical Islam is an attempt to minimize the threat that it exists. The radical Muslims are the ones who don't want to kill us. But they do exist.
▶ 1:36:08Not all Muslims are bad, but I think that we use that to minimize the threat. And I believe it's the largest threat because it's religiously motivated. When China or Russia or other countries persecute religions, they're doing it in the pursuit of political power. When they no longer believe it is good for them to get political power, they will stop. Whereas the rise of mainstream Islam is based on religion. It is a belief that is deeply held and is why we have to fight it. So I would And by the way, we see this threat in the United States.
▶ 1:36:36Um, the leading civil rights organization for mainstream Muslims in the United States, the Council on American Islamic Relations, argued in the state of Texas that three Muslim children had the right to attempt to destroy a Christian church because they were practicing their First Amendment rights. That is how they tried to get them out of being criminally prosecuted. Um, so I find it very troubling when there ends up being a focus on Israel, a country that I would note where the Christian population has risen dramatically since the creation of the state of Israel.
▶ 1:37:05Whereas if you look at a place like Bethlehem where Jesus was born, the Christian population has dropped from 85% to under 10%. It is not because Christians did not want to live near the birthplace of Jesus. It was because they no longer felt safe to be there. Um, so I have a question for Ambassador Brownback, if you don't mind.
▶ 1:37:24Um, I introduced a bill, the Peace Act, which passed unanimously um, out of the out of the Foreign Affairs Committee, that directs the State Department to coordinate with our allies to protect the rights of Jews in Europe to practice their faith. A place where we have seen dramatic increases in anti-Semitism again as we've seen the rise of mainstream Islam come to Europe. Um, Muslim terrorists are openly targeting people because they are {quote} visibly Jewish.
▶ 1:37:51Um, are you confident in our European allies protecting religious freedom? They seem to be interested in potentially legalizing cousin marriage or or banning New Year's Eve because that might offend certain religions, but are you confident our European European allies protecting other religions? Because what's happening in Europe is certainly very concerning to me.
▶ 1:38:11It's very concerning to me as well. And I I There are a number of European countries I think that do work at it. The rise of uh around the world and particularly in Europe, I'm hearing now of safe houses in Europe for Jews. I I that was stunning to me when I started to hear that that police in some cases telling Jewish congregations, we can't guarantee your protection uh here.
▶ 1:38:41I I don't think near enough is being done and it's it also to me pales somewhat in comparison to what I see taking place in where you've got just a a a war that now is breaking out in that middle belt of Africa uh between Islam and generally attacking Christianity in that region.
▶ 1:39:07And I I don't think near enough is being uh done across the world. I but I also I work with a number of European countries. I don't want to be particularly uh caustic towards them cuz it's kind of hard to find allies in this space that will do something. And they There are a number of European governments that will work on religious freedom issues. They'll work on them globally and they'll work on them with us. So, I'm I'm happy to have the work. I just I wish they would do more.
▶ 1:39:35Thank you. And to change topics, I mean obviously I worry about religious freedom of Jews being one, but but I'm obviously very concerned about the religious freedom of Christians, particularly in China, um where it is largely driven by governmental and governmental power. You know, China's closing churches, quote unquote re-educating Christians to follow the party line. Um Mr.
▶ 1:39:57Axel, if you've got any thoughts on US policy, what we ought to be doing to defend religious freedom, and how we can do better than have happened in previous administrations to to advance that, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
▶ 1:40:09Thank you so much for the question. Um I think that in China, like you said, that um it is very much state-backed, and um ultimately, I think that it is still a religious um in some ways motivated.
▶ 1:40:26Just Xi Jinping wants to be God in this in this Um and I think that the we I've seen um many diplomats from this administration and congre- um congressional support from both side of the aisle, um to support um the situation with my father and so many other Christians that are being detained currently, and I'm very thankful. And I think that um this has been tremendously encouraging.
▶ 1:40:51The fact that Secretary Marco Rubio mentioned my father's case by name 2 days after the detention really set a strong signal, and I think that we should continue on that type of pressure.
▶ 1:41:05Um I know that President Xi uh President Trump is going to meet with Xi Jinping in com- in a few times this year, and if we can um continue to rise um the the the heat and the um conversations to be had um at a higher level, um maybe potentially even at the presidential level, that would be in that would send an even stronger signal to um the situation in China. Thank
▶ 1:41:33Thank you. My my time having expired, um I I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony today and the members for their questions. The members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to these in writing. Pursuant to committee rules, all members may have five days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous material for the record subject to the length limitations. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.