▶ 0:16:12Are you okay? >> well. Good morning. The subcommittee on energy will now come to order. The chair recognizes himself for five minutes for an opening statement. Again, good morning, and welcome to today's energy subcommittee hearing with all five commissioners of the federal energy regulatory commission. Again, welcome.
▶ 0:16:37We welcome chairman swett and commissioner lassard for their first appearance before our subcommittee. And welcome back, commissioners rosner, hsi and chang. Ferc was established in 1970 by congress as an economic regulator to ensure that electricity, natural gas and oil is delivered to the american people safely, securely and reasonably priced.
▶ 0:17:04Now, as our nation stands at the precipice of substantial change in the global economy, it is imperative for ferc to remain steadfastly focused on their core mission in order to fuel technological advancements and stabilize the bulk power system to keep the lights on. They just came on. It is no secret that our grid is under extreme stress. The head of the north american electric reliability corporation, or newark, called the reliability crisis a five alarm fire.
▶ 0:17:33Average utility bills rose by 11% in 2025, after increasing by 29% in the four years prior, and substantially higher across our nation's blue states. Grid operators are flashing red alarms about the mismatch between growing demands and dwindling baseload resources. In fact, the department of energy found that the current pace of baseload retirements and load growth raised the risk of blackouts by 100 times by the year 2030.
▶ 0:18:01And across the country, a growing number of americans are concerned about the potential for data center development to raise their utility bills. How did we get here? Decades of poor policy decisions from federal and state governments steered utilities away from reliability centric investments and toward one intended to meet renewable energy goals. Even while fuel generation costs have plummeted since the shale revolution.
▶ 0:18:26Utility spending has been buoyed by costly investments on transmission and distribution to connect variable remote resources like wind and solar across the country. Retail rate filing cases at state commissions have highlighted several reasons for upward price pressures. Transmission development for state energy policies, interest rates, wildfire and disaster mitigation, among others. And our wholesale market states, higher prices should act as a signal for new entrants.
▶ 0:18:57Unfortunately, permitting delays, excessive litigation and blue state policy prevent pipeline construction are preventing market forces from responding appropriately. The current situation is an attainable and also unsustainable. It is important to remind everyone about what's at stake in the ai race.
▶ 0:19:14Ask yourself, do you want your family's personal banking or health information stored in communist china by winning the ai race, reshoring manufacturing jobs, lowering costs are not mutually exclusive. When done properly, research continues to show that the growth of large energy users, like data centers and manufacturing facilities, can help stabilize the grid and make electricity more affordable.
▶ 0:19:40To achieve this reality, we need ferc to remain laser focused on its core mission as an economic regulator. Along with the trump administration, the commission is righting the ship towards a more secure and prosperous future for all americans. Throughout 2025, ferc returned to a methodical approach to permitting interstate natural gas lines and lng facilities.
▶ 0:20:05They're working to streamline the process for licensing hydropower facilities to maintain and grow vital baseload resources. The commission has also made substantial progress on addressing jurisdictional lines between federal and state authority over co-location and flexible power arrangements. Ferc, along with the administration states, are ensuring that costs associated with the development of data centers are not falling on the backs of ratepayers.
▶ 0:20:30And importantly, the commission has continued working through the national association of regulatory utility commissioners collaborative to establish meaningful, productive and effective dialog between federal and state partners to tackle challenges facing our nation, our nation's energy systems. While substantial progress has been made to reaffirm american energy dominance, more work remains.
▶ 0:20:55Today's hearing is a pivotal opportunity for the committee to better understand how ferc can best serve the interests of the american people. I look forward to today's discussion, and I yield back the balance of my time. And the chair recognizes the gentlelady from florida's 14th district, the subcommittee rancor, for an opening statement for five minutes. >> well, thank you, chairman latta, and welcome to our ferc commissioners. Thank you very much for being here.
▶ 0:21:19Today's hearing comes at a time when hard working americans are being crushed by a higher cost of living, and it comes at a time when the us electric grid is facing a new level of crisis, driven by data center load growth, extreme weather and aging infrastructure.
▶ 0:21:38And as policymakers, it is our responsibility to help ensure that america's energy system can provide reliable and affordable service to our neighbors back home.
▶ 0:21:51Last week, nerc's long term reliability assessment highlighted the multiple risks that america's electric grid face or faces over the next ten years as peak electricity demand is expected to increase by more than 20% over the next ten years. And we're seeing this play out in real time. More than a million people lost power during the latest winter storm that they call fern, particularly in the southeast.
▶ 0:22:20The main challenges were toppled utility poles, iced over substations and downed transmission lines. The storm knocked out more than two dozen transmission lines owned by the tennessee valley authority, cutting off power from utilities across mississippi, tennessee and louisiana. And our hearts go out to the people for the struggles they went through.
▶ 0:22:43They shouldn't have to go through those kind of struggles in energy service territory across the southeast, at least 30 transmission lines, 860 poles and 60 substations went out of service. Pjm reported nearly 21gw of generation was offline during hours of peak demand, including gas, coal and oil. In comparison, wind, solar and batteries were helping to make up the difference.
▶ 0:23:10Nrc's report highlights key opportunities for us to to respond to the reliability crisis. First, we need to leverage load flexibility during times of grid stress, especially for emerging large loads such as data centers. Second, we need to streamline siting and permitting, particularly for transmission.
▶ 0:23:33And finally, we need to adapt grid planning to ensure that new resources can support essential reliability services such as voltage frequency ramping and dispatchability. That is why democrats and power providers have been calling out the trump administration's actions over the past year that have made our grid less reliable and more expensive. Secretary burgum has required every wind and solar project on federal lands to get his personal sign off.
▶ 0:24:03So last year, only one got permission to build. Meanwhile, secretary wright has canceled funding for more than 300 energy projects across the united states, including a $1.8 billion loan to the arizona public service to build out new transmission. That just doesn't make sense. This sabotage is making our grid less reliable, and it makes it harder for regulators and grid operators to do their job.
▶ 0:24:31But I have to say, for ferc, at least for the moment, you all stand in stark contrast. I want to commend the commission for its recent bipartisan actions, including the development of co-location pathways in pjm. The commission worked quickly to bring new energy onto the grid, including through automation and artificial intelligence tools to improve interconnection.
▶ 0:24:57However, we need to pair these efforts with effective grid upgrades and transmission planning. So I hope my republican colleagues can finally get serious about working to upgrade america's transmission infrastructure. And we need to make sure that developers of all energy types have permitting certainty, and that the federal government can be a trustworthy partner. The us grid is underutilized on average, using less than half of the existing grid capacity.
▶ 0:25:29We can build smarter, more a smarter, more modern grid that adds load and lowers prices. But we need the right policy and we need your regulatory support. The united states added over 18gw of energy storage in 2025, more than gas and wind combined. We already have 40gw of virtual power plant capacity deployed today, and we could reach 160gw by 2030. And that would be enough to meet 20% of peak demand.
▶ 0:25:57So I'm glad to see a number of our commissioners highlight grid enhancing technologies and their written testimonies, which could quickly increase the grid capacity by 15 to 20%. This is not your grandparents electric system or era. There are incredible modern tools and efficiencies that can lower costs and provide the the reliable power that we need in the years ahead. So let's tackle this together.
▶ 0:26:23There's a lot we can do together to deliver more energy and lower costs for neighbors. I look forward to hearing your ideas. Thank you. And I yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentlelady yields back, and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from kentucky, the chairman of the full committee for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chair. Thank you for all being here. I'd like to welcome you all and two of you, chairman swett and commissioner, this is your first appearance before us. We're happy to have all five of you here testifying.
▶ 0:26:52The message storms and deep freeze across the nation this week. This past week reminded 100 million americans why energy and power is vital for the nation, the ability for our utilities to provide reliable, affordable power has been a continuing focus of this committee this year and over the past several congresses since we last heard from the commission in june of 2020 for the affordability and reliability issues surrounding the electric grid have become even more pressing.
▶ 0:27:20The need to preserve and expand generation and electric infrastructure to keep the lights on during peak demand remains as urgent as ever. Reliability authorities just last week reported again that over half the nation has increased risk of blackouts when power demand spikes. Now, we also must confront the unprecedented demand in national security imperative of building ai and a growing economy.
▶ 0:27:44Growing affordability concerns added challenges as years of the energy transition climate agenda have started appearing in in household bills. The positive news is that some state and federal officials appear to be rising to meet the challenges, finding ways to preserve and bring on more dispatchable generation, connecting the most reliable generation faster, and finding ways to reconnect data centers and other loads faster as well.
▶ 0:28:09The trump administration would be should be commended for using its statutory tools to drive change, whether by keeping power available during emergency energy emergencies or by various speed to take power initiatives, including those requesting ferc to take decisive action. Testimony we received in previous hearings and national laboratory reports and research indicate that data centers connected responsibly can mitigate, if not lower, consumer bills.
▶ 0:28:36Today, I'd like to hear how the commissioners approach affordability while meeting demand for growth. And we must not forget, states are essential for siting and permitting the generation, transmission and new loads in a way that maximizes economic benefits and protects consumer bills. I am looking forward to this hearing and how ferc works with the states, and how those relationships are are going. Thank you for being here today.
▶ 0:29:02I would also like to note, before I yield back, that we have a cleric who's sitting in the council seat. She's chosen to go work with the leader's office in his energy capacity. So we'll have a a strong ally and friend in the leader's office from this committee. And we are really pleased for your hard work. And I know that we were able to find you and bring you to this committee from from your heart in texas with the texan of all texans. There's a few texans in here, but maybe the texan of all texans, Mr.
▶ 0:29:34Pfluger, and I'll yield to Mr. pfluger. >> thank you. Mr. chairman. Clara cargill has done a great job on this committee. She is from my hometown. And, you know, one of the many things that she would do, uh, on this committee, also in a personal capacity in my office is uh, is use fact, um, to to address any of the situations which I think this hearing today will be great at. And I would ask her, what's the composition of the texas electric grid right now?
▶ 0:30:00And she would get back to me as, uh, always with the facts. And by the way, natural gas was the backbone of the grid last week when we had the cold snap. Uh, clara, you work in such a great manner with professionalism, integrity and character. Uh, you have made our hometown very proud. And you've made this committee very proud. Mr. chairman, thanks for for allowing me a couple of minutes to speak. >> thank you. And thanks for your service to this committee. I look forward to working with you in your role in the leader's office.
▶ 0:30:30So we look forward to continue. Uh. >> thank you. If I may, may, uh, yeah. >> I'll yield to my. >> ask to yield. I also want to thank you for all your hard work because, uh, you know, when you're sitting right next to someone and see all the work that you do during, uh, especially very long subcommittees really appreciate it. And you've all you have been you've been always right there. And we have our office meetings every week. Uh, you have the information that we have to have. And so the subcommittee is going to miss you. So, Mr.
▶ 0:30:55Chairman, I, uh, we're going to have to do something about keeping people from going to the leader, the speaker's office. But, uh, gotta keep people right here. But, uh, I yield back. Thank you. Mr. >> well, thanks. And I did say texas tech. We do have no four on our side, I think at least two, maybe more on the other side of the aisle. So we have some great texans on the committee, but I think you're the only one that has a town named after you. Pflugerville. There's a pflugerville, texas. So I will yield back. Mr. >> chair. Thank you. The chair. The chair yields back.
▶ 0:31:24The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee. The gentleman from new jersey for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you. Chairman latta. I'd like to welcome all five commissioners to today's hearing. You have a difficult job ahead of you. Our nation's electric grid is in the middle of an affordability and reliability crisis. New jerseyans are paying 15% more for power and 12% more for natural gas than they were a year ago. And one of her most important responsibilities is to ensure just and reasonable prices.
▶ 0:31:53It's not working, and president trump is making the electricity affordability crisis even worse. And this is not just a problem in new jersey. Power prices have spiked across the country, and trump's campaign promise to cut them in half has proven to be just another broken promise. Last year, utilities requested a record $31 billion in rate increases, doubled the pace of 2024, and prices nationwide are up 13% since trump's inauguration.
▶ 0:32:20The reasons are clear our nation's grid operators have proven themselves simply incapable of hooking up power to the grid fast enough, in no small part because there are plans to expand the power grid are completely unfit for this day and age. I've made clear over the past year my displeasure at pjm, new jersey's grid operator. But while they're one of the worst offenders, they're not the only ones who have been caught asleep at the wheel.
▶ 0:32:45When new sources of cleaner and cheaper power are ready to hook up to the grid, president trump has blocked them for bogus reasons. Trump's war against clean energy defies logic, particularly at a time when data centers powering artificial intelligence tools are aiding power demand at a pace we've not seen in over a generation. And I want to be clear, ai tools cannot be built upon the backs of american families.
▶ 0:33:08Power bills, data centers should be able to hook up to the grid, but they have to pay their fair share and ensure that they're not going to close the grid. To collapse. Ferc's role must be to establish rules of the road that make that happen. Ferc must be the cop on the beat to ensure that big tech isn't fleecing the average american to to fuel their ambitions, and ferc has the authority and the expertise to make this happen. But it's going to require the commission to stand up to a white house that is bending over backwards.
▶ 0:33:37For companies that are interested in building data centers to the detriment of american families monthly power bills, it's going to mean not discriminating against clean energy. No matter how much the white house may be pressuring you to do just that. And it's going to mean acting transparently, quickly, and decisively in the long term. The only way to deal with increased demand, no matter if it's from data centers, electric vehicles or electrified home heating, is to build out the grid. And that is simply impossible.
▶ 0:34:03While the white house wages a war on clean energy, now offshore wind projects that were on the verge of delivering power to the grid have seen their permits illegally canceled. Hundreds of projects receiving funding from the department of energy had their funding illegally revoked, many simply because they were being built in a democratic run state and potentially clean energy projects on federal lands may never get off the ground because the white house has created an impossible bureaucratic nightmare for any company.
▶ 0:34:31Trying to build these actions are an embarrassment to our nation. They truly are. But they're also a threat to the pocketbooks and to the safety of american families across the country. So just last week, the north american electric reliability corporation warned that a huge swath of the nation's grid would be at high risk for blackouts by the end of this decade. The winter storm that blasted new jersey and much of the east coast just over a week ago pushed us right to the brink.
▶ 0:34:58If republicans have their way, the next winter storm might push us over the edge instead. And we just have to stop this madness. It truly is madness. Coming from the white house, I hope to hear how how ferc is working to ensure that americans have affordable electricity and a reliable electric grid in the face of skyrocketing demand. But again, I'll just repeat, um, we're not going to have any progress here unless you, as independent commissioners and as an independent agency, stand up to the madness that's coming from president trump.
▶ 0:35:27And I just hope that we can see you do that. Otherwise, our prices will continue to go up, our blackouts will continue. Will will be worse. Um, I just don't know where we're going here. I mean, the public does not find any of this acceptable. They want reliable power. They don't want prices to keep going up. Uh, this was a major issue in new jersey, um, in the last election. And fortunately, we have a governor now who has decided to freeze, uh, prices.
▶ 0:35:57Um, and I think one of the reasons that, uh, people admire her so much is because of that, because they're just so concerned about these electricity prices they just can't afford. So with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> well, thank you very much. The gentleman yields back the balance of his concludes member opening statements. And the chair reminds members that, again, we want to thank all of our witnesses for appearing before us today to testify.
▶ 0:36:25Each witness will have the opportunity to give an opening statement, followed by a round of questions from our committee members. Our witnesses joined us from the federal regulatory federal energy regulatory commission, our chairman laura swett, commissioner david rosner, commissioner linda see commissioner judy chang and commissioner david lassard. And before we get started, just a quick housekeeping. When you pull up that micro close, we'd appreciate it.
▶ 0:36:55And also, you'll see the the lights. You have five minutes. It'll be green for four. They'll go yellow for the last minute. And hope when you hit that red that you can finish up. So again, we appreciate you all for being here today and at this time. Now I recognize the chair of the ferc, uh, chair of sweat for your five minutes for an opening statement. Thank you. >> thank you very much. Chairman guthrie, ranking member.
▶ 0:37:23Pallone, chairman, ranking member. Castor. And members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting us to testify about our critical energy mission on behalf of the american people. As many of you acknowledged this morning, ferc works for all americans and across all party lines. My colleagues and I come from very diverse perspectives, but we are unified in the mission that congress gave us to ensure reliable and affordable energy.
▶ 0:37:52Before I get started today, I'd like to acknowledge and thank the emergency crews, grid operators, utility workers, linemen, and first responders for their hard work throughout the winter storms and for their ongoing efforts to keep americans safe. I'm honored to appear before you for the first time as chairman, leading a full five member bipartisan commission. I'd like to take this opportunity to share with you the three main principles that drive me as a leader.
▶ 0:38:22First, I'm driven by gratitude. To be an american. I am thankful every single day for the benefits that this country has provided my family. As I shared at my senate confirmation hearing last fall, I grew up the daughter of a vietnamese refugee who left everything behind for the promise of a better life. My father was a civil servant who grew up in low income housing in brooklyn and dedicated over 40 years to the department of war.
▶ 0:38:50I learned from my parents at a very young age to not take for granted anything that we have in the united states, including reliable and affordable energy, american ingenuity, hard work, and the dedication of tens of thousands of americans in our energy workforce make our light and warmth and innovation possible. Second, I've been a lawyer for 15 years. This is my third tenure at ferc.
▶ 0:39:16This means that I personally know the importance of maintaining and growing ferc's professional staff. Thanks to our partners in the administration, we are again hiring it. Ferc and I'll plug on this very public platform that we really want people to apply. Um, please apply and join our mission at ferc.
▶ 0:39:39I also want to emphasize that having spent my career litigating ferc cases, every single thing that I do is with legal durability, top of mind to give ratepayers and investors certainty in what ferc is doing. I want to reduce the years and millions of dollars spent litigating ferc decisions with an eye towards ensuring as much as we can, that we all have regulatory certainty, cost reduction and infrastructure development.
▶ 0:40:09Third, I want all americans to prosper. Energy is the foundation of our civil society, our national security and our economic prosperity. Ferc stands at a critical juncture in history. This is domestically and in the world. We're in a global energy arms race created by the rise of technology, its tremendous load growth and our push to onshore manufacturing and jobs. I want the united states to lead that place and our citizens to benefit from it.
▶ 0:40:38This is the moment to cement america's energy leadership. As chairman, I'm committed to guiding ferc through the monumental growth opportunity before us. We're already working to streamline ferc processes, cut down connection times, and ensure efficient, durable infrastructure development and maintenance. I've been chairman for only a few months, but I'm proud of the strides this bipartisan commission has made.
▶ 0:41:04We're continuing to explore whether we can simplify and optimize permitting by expanding our successful natural gas blanket authorization program to hydroelectric and liquefied natural gas facilities. And in december, as several of you mentioned, we directed the nation's largest grid operator to establish transparent rules to serve ai data centers and other large loads that are co-located with generation.
▶ 0:41:30These rules will safeguard reliability and protect consumers across the mid-atlantic, impacting over 67 million americans. A big part of the prosperity I want for america is affordability, which is very personal to me. Growing up, I watched my parents struggle to pay the bills as they piled up. That experience drives my commitment to ensure that progress does not come at consumer expense. I know that everyone at this table shares my commitment.
▶ 0:41:59I look forward to your continued support and partnership as we meet these challenges together. Thank you and I welcome your questions. >> thank you very much. Commissioner rosner. You are recognized for five minutes for your statement. Well. >> good morning. Chairman, ranking member castor, chairman guthrie and ranking member pallone, as well as members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:42:22It's an honor to appear before you today, alongside my colleagues, to to discuss ferc's work to deliver affordable and reliable energy for all americans and our commitment to upholding congress's vision for a bipartisan, independent, resource neutral regulator. That is our mission. While it's simple to articulate, it's increasingly complex to execute. Energy demand is growing at a pace not seen in a generation.
▶ 0:42:51Energy technologies continue to evolve, and innovation across our economy is reshaping how energy infrastructure is planned, built and used by consumers. Furthermore, our energy systems face these pressures at a time when families and small businesses have been struggling with high prices, including their utility bills. While meeting this moment presents challenges, it also creates opportunities for us to modernize america's energy infrastructure.
▶ 0:43:19Upgrading our energy system is necessary to ensure that every family and business receives the reliable and affordable power that they depend on, and doing so is essential for our country's economic competitiveness and national security.
▶ 0:43:32Over the past week, winter forms fern and gianna reminded us of the importance of this work thanks to the line workers, pipeliners, rig workers and the rest of our energy sector workforce, the bulk electric and natural gas transmission networks performed well, but many systems were stressed near the limit. So let me now share some of the specific actions ferc is taking to realize that opportunities and address the challenges before us.
▶ 0:44:01First, we're accelerating new electric generation of all kinds, building the energy resources needed to meet growing demand and reduce consumer reports was my top focus. In 2025, we implemented ferc's landmark order number 2023, generator interconnection reforms and fast tracked more than 50gw of shovel ready power plants.
▶ 0:44:24Looking forward, I am encouraging grid operators to deploy automation and artificial intelligence tools that have been shown to accelerate steps in the interconnection study process from years to weeks. Second, we're deploying forward looking grid planning centered around reliability, affordability and economic growth. This year, ferc will be positioned to act on electric transmission providers.
▶ 0:44:48Proposals to implement ferc order number 1920, which modernize the long term transmission planning process. When I arrived as a commissioner, this rule divided the commission along party lines. My proudest accomplishment was working with colleagues to make the final version bipartisan and unanimous, by incorporating more input from our state partners. Third, we are emphasizing predictability, speed, and legal durability for our infrastructure permitting.
▶ 0:45:17Since I last testified before this committee, ferc has issued 97 permits for hydropower and natural gas projects. In many instances, we are moving from nepa review to permit issuance more than 30% faster than was typical during the last decade, and this is without compromising quality. Ferc's permits have routinely been upheld in court in recent years, and we continue to weigh the views of all parties in our order. Fourth, we are embracing innovative pathways to power data centers and other large loads while protecting consumers.
▶ 0:45:47The commission took significant actions in december and january, implementing programs in pjm and spx to pair large, new, large loads with new generation. This pairing reduces how much these projects lean on the grid. It minimizes the need to construct additional costly transmission upgrades. It promotes flexible operations and helps ensure that new loads pay their fair share.
▶ 0:46:11Put simply, the goal is lowering costs, protecting grid reliability, and helping new customers and power plants get online faster. Fifth, we continue to enhance grid security and reliability through modernization and flexibility. It is essential that we continue to deploy 21st century reliability solutions, including advanced demand response, dynamic line ratings, predictive artificial intelligence, and emerging cybersecurity technologies.
▶ 0:46:39Last year, for example, ferc and nurc implemented enhanced power plant performance standards for extreme cold weather that have already proved essential in keeping the lights on during winter storms. Sixth, we are staying laser focused on affordability. In addition to the examples I've already mentioned, over the last two years, ferc has approved expanded competitive electric markets in the west and the southeast, which will enable customers to access lower cost power.
▶ 0:47:05And in pjm, we approved a temporary price cap that saved consumers more than $12 billion. It's my priority to deliver more examples like this in 2026. Finally, I will conclude my remarks by highlighting the value of our current commission's consensus driven mindset. I'm immensely proud that the vast majority of orders I voted on have been bipartisan and unanimous, including every single energy project permit.
▶ 0:47:31This consensus creates regulatory predictability and legal durability, and our work is stronger because it benefits from five sets of perspectives and experiences. I thank my colleagues for their collaboration, which I'm I'm very confident will continue to deliver for our country. Thank you again for the opportunity to be here and I look forward to your questions. >> thank you commissioner. See, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. >> chair. Guthrie, ranking member. Pallone. Chair.
▶ 0:48:01Ranking member. Castor. Members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me and my fellow commissioners here today. While the five of us are here now, please let me also thank the hundreds of ferc staff who make the agency's work possible. They bring their talent and integrity to work every day, and their dedication furthers america's energy resilience. It's especially poignant being here on the heels of winter storm fern, with deep respect for the hardships so many went through and still are, I'm grateful that we saw the bulk power system largely hold.
▶ 0:48:29On a more personal note, over 1 million homes and businesses lost power during the storm's peak, and I was in one of those homes in a region with significant ice buildup. We heard crashes for hours as heavy limbs fell all around the house and neighborhood. I was so impressed by the restoration efforts as thousands of lineworkers worked extended hours in dangerous conditions to bring the region back online.
▶ 0:48:54Thank you to my local utilities, aep and appalachian power, and to those in so many other states for your tireless efforts. When the heat and the lights go out during extreme cold, you focus quick on the practical details to keep your loved ones safe. While I was waiting on power restoration, it wasn't lost on the energy regulator in me that these real world concerns are why we strive to get the policy right. Ensuring reliable and affordable energy reliability. Keeping the lights on means heat, comfort, medical care.
▶ 0:49:22It also means economic growth and enhancing national security. And affordability means focusing on the real people paying the bills. These principles take on new urgency as stressors like winter storm fern come on top of existing challenges from unprecedented load growth, aging and insufficient infrastructure, and how to get and keep key generators online. Growing electricity demand from ai, manufacturing and other strategic sectors is a national opportunity.
▶ 0:49:51It's only a crisis if we don't rise to meet it. Addressing today's issues and building for the future call for innovation, expertise, legal strength, respecting the states and different regions needs and price accountability to the customers we serve. For reliability. Energy infrastructure must match america's growing power needs. That means new generation, supporting our state partners and strengthening investment signals through our market regulator role.
▶ 0:50:16It also means more pipes and wires to get our nation's abundant energy supplies to the people and businesses that need them. The commission must approve gas capacity, remove pipeline development barriers and streamline the certificate process. Building out the electricity grid likewise requires new ways to get resources built and connected fast. The commission is focused on potential solutions like co-located arrangements, bio generation, and new methods to study large loads in the generators that serve them. Deployed well.
▶ 0:50:45These strategies can be both consumer forward and help meet our national imperatives of speed to power and winning the ai race. My goal when I assess novel approaches, is to encourage as much flexibility as responsibly possible to harness new value adds on affordability. I think especially of recent conversations with people and business owners. Very grateful for power during a historic storm, but also nervously waiting for the utility bills.
▶ 0:51:11Building the power systems our people and economy depend on is necessarily expensive, but we cannot neglect the customers who depend, who rely on dependable power and foot the bill. So we should focus more on grid enhancing technologies that help get the most out of existing systems and make new investments smarter. We must protect customers and our ratemaking and related areas, and we need to pay close attention to the electricity markets.
▶ 0:51:36Over time, well-functioning, competitive markets have delivered billions of dollars a year in customer value through sharing resources across broader geographic areas, prioritizing lower cost power, and enhancing grid stability. At the same time, electricity markets were not designed for the scale and speed of today's large load growth. So here too, we need innovative and legally strong solutions to allocate costs fairly and address near-term challenges, while ensuring our long term frameworks are strong.
▶ 0:52:02Lastly, my preferred experience as an appellate litigator and state lawyer means I always focus on how to send the legally durable investment signals that get steel in the ground. My mantra is striking the right balance between faster processes and doing our best work, so our orders stand up in court. A couple examples. Last fall, the commission ended a policy that had tacked months long delay between when we issue certificates under the natural gas act and when pipeline construction can start.
▶ 0:52:29We're also streamlining our processes to advance liquefied natural gas infrastructure. I'm optimistic that after considering all public input, the commission will speed reviews for certain lng projects in a way that honors our statutes, strengthens america's global energy leadership, and gives regulatory certainty to deliver reliable, affordable energy at home and abroad. This is an exciting and sobering time.
▶ 0:52:52As a commissioner, I respect ferc's twin duties not to go beyond the authority congress gave us and not to hesitate in using the power we do have in a time that demands decisive action. Thank you for the opportunity to testify and I look forward to our discussion. >> well, thank you very much for your opening statement. And chair, our commissioner chang, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. >> chair latta, ranking member, castor, chair, guthrie and ranking member, pallone and the members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:53:22Thank you so much for inviting me and my fellow commissioners to testify today. The country's energy sector is in the midst of a dramatic shift. After years of relatively flat demand, we are witnessing rapid growth, primarily driven by data centers, which in turn is driving major transmission investments and generation investments, while integrating and serving large loads is creating new challenges and exacerbating existing problems on the electric grid.
▶ 0:53:49It also presents an opportunity to modernize aging in system in a manner that can simultaneously improve reliability and increase efficiency. To date, the system buildout has contributed to high prices to customers whose utility rates have already increased in recent years due to other factors.
▶ 0:54:08Thus, as regulators, the commission has a responsibility to guide the industry's effort toward cost effective and durable solutions that address these pressing challenges while protecting customers from adverse reliability and cost impacts. In assessing approaches to meet the needs of the current moment, I focus on three priorities. First, it's critical that we keep consumer protection at the forefront of our decision making.
▶ 0:54:35Residents and small businesses across the country rely on the grid, and traditionally, they are the captive ratepayers who bear the cost of system expansions or upgrades to deliver the necessary energy services. However, given that much of the new grid investments are driven by large loads, regulators, policy makers and other stakeholders are raising legitimate concerns regarding the fair allocation of these costs among different customers.
▶ 0:55:05Our state regulator colleagues have been at the forefront of addressing these consumer protection issues, and we must also act at the federal level to ensure that new large loads pay their fair share and do not shift costs to other customers. We have seen an increased trend toward requiring new loads to pay for the incremental generation and transmission investments they trigger.
▶ 0:55:26This basic principle new large loads must cover their costs, should inform customer protection efforts and the commission. And I'm committed to making progress on that effort. Beyond cost distribution, I continue to focus on other regulatory tools that could protect consumers, including increasing data transparency for transmission projects and expanding the use of advanced transmission technologies, which could make better use of our infrastructure.
▶ 0:55:54Second, the commission, state regulators and policymakers should prioritize addressing the persistent bottlenecks that interfere with the timely construction of new electric infrastructure. Of these bottlenecks, the commission plays a particular role in addressing the pervasive uncertainty faced by generators seeking to interconnect.
▶ 0:56:16In recent years, the commission has actively worked to get new resources online, including expanding front end processes to enable interconnection of new generation. However, these efforts have been frustrated by the lack of available transmission. Available transmission capabilities, which create cost uncertainties and financing difficulties for these projects.
▶ 0:56:40This constraint perpetuates the scarcity condition that keeps prices high for customers and hold up our ability to serve new loads. Thus, it is imperative that we address this and other bottlenecks to ensure that the system can accommodate new loads and generation, which in turn will provide the regulatory certainty needed to support economic growth.
▶ 0:57:02Third, to the greatest extent possible, we need to advance durable solutions instead of temporary fixes. The pace and volume of load growth are straining our existing regulatory processes. This is most visible in the pjm footprint, but it exists in various parts of the nation. The commission and regional transmission organizations have taken initial steps to alleviate some of the pressure on market rules interconnection processes, with some success.
▶ 0:57:33While some of these short term fixes respond to the immediate needs, I'm concerned that we will not meet the longer term challenges of this moment with only a series of temporary emergency fixes. Fortunately, we see great innovation coming from various regions of the country, including some filings that have already been approved by commission by the commission. These solutions are tailored to the industry's needs over the long term and develop through robust stakeholder processes.
▶ 0:58:02The commission also has acted, including the pjm, what we call the co-location proceeding to initiate reforms where we see long term solutions for a problem we face going forward. I am optimistic that the commission, working collaboratively with states and stakeholders, will implement durable reforms that responsibly adapt to the dynamics of the marketplace.
▶ 0:58:24It remains my great privilege to serve on this commission, and I reiterate my commitment to serving the best interest of the american people. Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you. >> well, thank you for your opening statement. And, commissioner, you are recognized for five minutes for your statement. Chairman, ranking.
▶ 0:58:48>> member castor and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the privilege of appearing in my first hearing as a commissioner on the federal energy regulatory commission. It is my honor to serve the american people by implementing ferc's statutory mandate to ensure just and reasonable rates for reliable electricity site natural gas pipeline infrastructure and lng facilities and licensed nonfederal hydropower facilities. Since this is my first time here as a commissioner, I'd like to share some of who I am so you can better understand my guiding principles while I'm at ferc.
▶ 0:59:17I was born and raised in south louisiana along bayou terrebonne. My father worked offshore and oil and gas exploration and production, and my mom worked as a secretary at a pipe yard. I know firsthand the impacts of the decisions here in the legislative branch, the decisions at ferc and the executive branch, and what they have on the americans and their daily lives. I grew up in the outdoors, hunting and fishing in our wetlands and inlets.
▶ 0:59:41I know these resources are a gift, and that we are charged with protecting and conserving our wildlife and the environment for our children and for future generations to come. I spent most of my professional life in public service. I answer the nation's call when I volunteered to serve in the marine corps infantry, serving in the invasion and occupation of afghanistan, I served as a state cabinet secretary in my home state of louisiana.
▶ 1:00:03I've held leadership roles in small and large federal agencies, including with the us chemical safety board, leading outgoing transition from opm from trump to biden. And then once again, incoming transition from biden to trump. My experience in the private practice in houston at one of our nation's oldest law firms placed me in many of the production and transmission facilities that are impacted by our decisions at ferc and here on the hill.
▶ 1:00:28I spent many sunrises and sunsets at refineries, plants and transmission facilities which power american homes, businesses and lives. I have worked with industry and special interest groups and both sides of the aisle to make our nation a better place to live, to work, and to raise a family. Our american energy workers have never failed to inspire me to be a better advocate and partner for better outcomes, and it has been a pleasure to work alongside them and be their trusted counsel.
▶ 1:00:57And now, in our first 90 days at ferc, my fellow commissioners and I have approved over 200 orders, ranging from tariff changes related to various rtos and utilities, siting natural gas and nonfederal hydropower infrastructure and enforcement actions. For example, we have already voted to approve 12 major infrastructure projects, bringing more than 3.3 million dekatherms per day of natural gas transportation capacity to power generators, residential consumers, industrial customers.
▶ 1:01:25To put that number in perspective, that's roughly enough natural gas to meet the electrical demand of 10 to 14 million average american homes. To give further perspective, this is 2 to 3 times this household population of the state of ohio, all in the first 90 days. That's today is my first appearance in front of the house of representatives. I would like to present you my priorities as commissioner.
▶ 1:01:47These priorities include ensuring a reliable grid at affordable rates, setting up america to win the artificial intelligence race, and ensuring our permitting decisions are completed swiftly and that they're legally defensible. For more detail on my priorities, please see my written testimony that I provided before the hearing. I look forward to answering your questions in this important moment for america and for the energy sector. Thank you. >> well, thank you very much. I appreciate it, and thank you for to your service for our country.
▶ 1:02:14Uh, this will conclude our witnesses opening statements. And we now move into our question and answer portion from our members. And I will begin. This is going to be the easiest question that you're going to have to answer from anyone. Ask everybody the same question. Do we have to have more or less energy produced in this country? Commissioner ching. >> moore more. >> more. >> more or. >> thank you very much.
▶ 1:02:40Um, chairman, if I could start something you had mentioned in your statement as you were presenting about having reliable and affordable energy in this country. And, uh, one of the things that you brought up and you mentioned was to attain regulatory certainty. And one of the things when I'm out across my district or talk to people across this country, the word certainty always comes up.
▶ 1:03:08How do we how do you attain that regulatory certainty? So not only do the agencies know what they're doing, but really the people that have to implement them out there and the companies, so they have that certainty so they can go forward. Because since we have to have more energy out there, how do we do that? >> thank you for the question. That certainty is core to everything that we're doing. And it's something I thought about before even having the honor of assuming this position.
▶ 1:03:37And it's an answer on every level of what ferc does. We are taking a hard, holistic look at the open items at ferc. First of all, I shut down quite a few lingering dockets in my first meeting with the help of my colleagues here. That's one way to eliminate certainty uncertainty that has come from past administrations.
▶ 1:04:00Um, another way is to end the flip flopping of ferc's regulatory paradigm and the uncertainty that's created by increasing regulation that has built up over the years that far exceeds what ferc's mission is under the law.
▶ 1:04:18So with that in mind, the entire agency now is looking at ways that we can clean up our regulations to provide more clarity to the people who we want to invest millions and billions of dollars into our power grid, into our pipelines.
▶ 1:04:34And probably the best example of that now is our looking to expand our very successful blanket program over natural gas pipelines to see if there are certain actions that we can take to make it much easier for our lng facilities, for our hydropower projects, and for our pipelines to make the changes that they need without consuming a lot of resources at staff at ferc and external litigation.
▶ 1:05:02And we're taking a hard look now at very meaningful comments filed by the industry to see what we can do to provide more certainty in that way. >> well, thank you very much. Um, commissioner rosner, uh, you mentioned in your statement about the, uh, moving along with 97 permits, uh, faster, safely. What's going on out there? Why is all of a sudden you can do things? I think from what the chair was just mentioning.
▶ 1:05:30But all of a sudden now, because we've always heard about the roadblocks that have been put in place that could move forward. What's happened? >> thank you for the question, chairman. Um, yeah. I'll say a couple of things. First of all, um, I'm a huge believer in bipartisanship and consensus driven decision making. And, um, my commissioners and I, you know, I think we've been really executing on that.
▶ 1:05:56And, uh, all first of all, all of our, our permit decisions since I've been there have been bipartisan and unanimous. And so you you asked about predictability, you know, bipartisan unanimous decisions doesn't give anybody, you know, legal toeholds things to to ask a judge about it really, um, makes the the answer better.
▶ 1:06:19Um, you know, the other thing I'd say on the speed is, um, we have been doing the nepa reviews consistent with the fiscal responsibility act one year for a shorter environmental assessment, two years for the environmental impact statement. We've been we've been following that and in fact, beating it in many cases. Um, and then what we've been doing is. >> can I ask you you said you've been beating that in my I only got about 42 seconds left, but how how is it all of a sudden you're able to beat that and move things along?
▶ 1:06:50>> I, I again I think I think, you know, the staff is looking for clear consensus from the commission. The commission is looking at you know, I'm looking at the statutes that that congress has entrusted us with, and we're giving clear direction to staff. We've had a lot of legal back and forth over the last decade, but the courts have, um, given us some information about how to proceed, um, on nepa reviews, where we're following the statute, we're looking at direct impacts.
▶ 1:07:16And, uh, and then, uh, we save time by telling staff, start writing the order while you're writing the environmental document. And, you know, if there are comments in the record, we'll make changes. Um, but, you know, it's not rocket science. You know, if you have consensus and the commission finds these projects in the public interest and agrees on it, that's how we move it forward. >> well, thank you very much. My time has expired and I have about five more pages of questions, but I'll submit.
▶ 1:07:41The chair recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee, gentlelady from florida for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and thanks again for your your testimony. It's it's good to hear you talk about affordability now because it it's obviously getting to you all even though you're, you're kind of a step away from elected officials. But it's good to hear that you, you understand that people are really, uh, undergoing a squeeze right now.
▶ 1:08:08Commissioner chang, last july, ferc approved mesos short term, one time eras proposal to allow expedited uh generation interconnection. Uh, planning. You talked about the bottlenecks. I think one of the ways that we could lower prices and ensure reliability is to speed all of the resources that are just waiting in these bottlenecks onto the grid.
▶ 1:08:31In your concurrence, you noted the importance of guardrails to ensure projects are needed, uh, supported by state entities and sufficiently commercially viable to actually be constructed. Can you elaborate on the importance of the interconnection queue reforms required by ferc order 2023? >> thank you very much, ranking member, and thank you for that question. Um, it's absolutely right.
▶ 1:08:59It's critical that ferc has been working with its stakeholders to, uh, to create all the reforms necessary in the interconnection process. And this is multiple years of worth of work making sure that we, uh, advance resources that are in what we call first ready, first, uh, serve.
▶ 1:09:20And we have, um, articulated in the order in 2023 which, which accelerates the process and streamlines the tries to streamline the process of interconnecting generators. And in that, we have also asked to use the cluster studies and, uh, increase the the payment upfront to make sure that the resources that are well prepared and ready to go, to be able to interconnect to this system.
▶ 1:09:51>> and you're seeing progress. >> we have in the midst of implementation and definitely have seen progress. And that's what I consider as long term solutions. You know, we have made the progress and make the necessary changes and reforms in the process. But no matter how fast we can, um, study the projects, the generation connect interconnection process, one of the bottlenecks I talked about in my opening statement is the transmission system.
▶ 1:10:19So if the transmission system is not ready or if it's, um, it's inadequate for interconnecting the generation and the load that becomes the bottleneck. So I think it's time for the industry to turn its attention, to make sure that we have a system that's ready for connecting both the large loads and the generators that's necessary to serve.
▶ 1:10:42>> the this isn't your testimony, but this is my editorial comment that it makes no sense in the world for the administration to be sabotaging grid modernization across the country, withholding grants and loans and things like that. Commissioner rosner, you've also been focused on efficiencies. You've encouraged grid operators to deploy automation and ai tools to accelerate interconnection. Um, can you elaborate on this? And what can the congress do to help? >> thank you for the question, congresswoman.
▶ 1:11:11Um, so I'm very passionate about this topic. So, uh, interconnection to do it safely. We do the study, uh, or the grid operator does a study to make sure these electrons, they don't really follow regular rules. They follow these physics rules. We got to make sure they're going in the right place. So a power plant can connect safely and not cause problems. Um, the old way of doing that is, um, the it was basically by hand, you know, it's an engineer and they're running a model.
▶ 1:11:40Um, about a year ago, um, one of our region's miso in the midwest, um, adopted this new software written by a company. As far as I know, it was a phd student from pittsburgh that came up with this idea. What if these power flow studies could be faster? And so they adopted that. It's all open and transparent. On miso's interconnection working group website for for all the geeks probably sitting behind me who want to check it out.
▶ 1:12:10Um, but but the the details are complex, but the results are simple. What used to take miso 686 days to process one of these clusters, of all the requests of new generators to connect to the system the new way? Less than ten days. And they've done extensive public benchmarking. The results are are accurate. You know, it's within, you know, .01 percent or so. Um, when you look across the, the cluster and I just think it's great, it's.
▶ 1:12:39>> a congress should do more to, to make sure that that all rtos and all planners have these tools. >> you know, I think I'd say very respectfully, anything congress can do to help industry move faster would be appreciated because we need electrons right now. Uh, and if this is something that congress thinks is important, you know, I would be excited to implement it. I also would, you know, when I talk, I go and meet all the boards and the ceos of the grid operators and tell them tell them about this. Why don't you why don't you adopt this?
▶ 1:13:10You don't need a ferc, you know, six year rulemaking to do it. You could do it right now. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. Thank you very much. The gentlelady yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from kentucky, the chair of the full committee for five minutes for questions. >> thank you very much. I'm going to try to get each of you a question into a question. So I'll, I'll, I'll go try to go quick. So, chairman swett, the tech industry wants power connections to the grid and they want it fast. Do you think ferc and its stakeholders can provide timely solutions to help meet this demand? >> absolutely. Thank you for the question.
▶ 1:13:40That is my number one priority to ensure that we can provide what the data centers need to connect so that we can protect american data. >> yeah. What's the best thing that I know? We got just a few minutes, like the single thing you think would be the biggest impact. >> within first jurisdiction.
▶ 1:13:58We can do everything in our power to make the markets and the transmission owners have clear rules for large loads and potentially associated generation to connect to the grid as quickly as possible. >> okay. Thank you. And I'll move on. So, uh, Mr. lester, Mr. rosner, I'll let Mr. lester go first.
▶ 1:14:17Since you haven't answered the question yet, I know we're early in this anyway, but the administration has requested that ferc, uh, connect, take large loads and address affordability, uh, to connect large loads and address affordability. Are there innovative solutions or approaches you are thinking about that ensure both in this very dynamic environment, large loads and affordability? What are you thinking about? >> absolutely. I think um, I think this is a matter that's pending before us, but I can speak generally about my core principles.
▶ 1:14:44I think that we need to provide as much as we can in flexibility to the states, to the rtos and to the generators and to the loads themselves, so that we can come up with innovative solutions that work for them. And I think that you can see a step in that direction with our december pjm order, which allowed co-location. Uh, we gave some flexibilities, but we made sure there were some consumer protection safeguards within there. We want to give these powers, but with these new flexibilities comes great responsibility. Um, from the generators, from the loads themselves, from the toes.
▶ 1:15:13And I think the president bringing the people together with a bipartisan panel of governors over the past couple of weeks is a step in the right direction. Um, I think more people at the table that we can separate our differences and focus on, on what we agree on. I think that's going to move the needle. Um, and also acknowledging that every region is different, every region has a different balance of power. They have a different generation mix. Um, and acknowledging that and dealing with the delicacies of state rights is going to be paramount.
▶ 1:15:42We look forward to dealing with this in the early part of the year. >> so, Mr. rogers, just kind of a brief answer on that was a good answer. I'm not. But I want to get to another just to kind of follow up on that or. >> yeah. Yeah. >> thank thank you. Chairman. Um, so first of all, um, I agree with the colleagues here. I mean, I think, um, a lot of our work has been focused on putting all the options on the table and making them legal.
▶ 1:16:04So the industry has choices and what that's meant, the, the new innovation here at a very high level has been what are ways to get new generation paired with new loads on the grid faster. And so we made co-location, which is, you know, when you plug a power plant right into a data center, there's fewer transmission wires and substations and all the other things that take a long time and a lot of money to build. And that that kind of arrangement can minimize the impact on regular homeowners. They're just not on the grid, so they don't charge people.
▶ 1:16:35>> thanks. I'm probably going to have to get to my next question. I appreciate that. So miss kim, is chang so you talked so Mr. talked about states and states rights. So miss c first and then miss chang, would each of you talk about the experience and expertise states bring to the table to ensure power systems meet demand and provide affordable, reliable power? So the role of the states in this. >> thank you congressman I love that question. As a former state lawyer, I think it's critical to remember the important and complementary roles that the states play. They bring a lot of expertise for their region.
▶ 1:17:02They understand what's necessary to respond to the particular dynamics in their states. They have front line responsibility for resource adequacy, for determining the composition of the power, um, generators within their region. We have great respect for what they do, and I think it's important when we are doing our role to make sure that we are respecting that, that we are working cooperatively with the states, that we are a forum to bring them together to discuss best practices. Their role is so important, and we cannot do our role well without being strong partners with our state partners. >> thank you, miss chang.
▶ 1:17:34>> thank you for that question. Yes. As a former energy policy person at the state level, I completely concur. The states play a significant role, and this is the moment we absolutely, at the commission have to work with our state counterparts to to meet the challenge of the day. The states bring a lot of, uh, the states are already at the forefront of solving some of these problems. They are already leading the efforts in making sure that the utility bills are affordable for consumers.
▶ 1:18:03And they are also many of the states are already dealing with interconnecting large loads and the processes associated with that. So I think it's time again that we collaborate with our state partners in solving the problem. Thank you. >> thank you. I don't have enough time for another question so I will yield back five seconds. >> well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman. And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey, the ranking member of the full committee for five minutes for questions. And also the members have probably heard the bells have gone off.
▶ 1:18:30And so the first vote of the day is occurring. I could just say real briefly, we're going to do we're going to take a brief recess after the gentleman asked us questions, and we will reconvene ten minutes after the second vote is called. So the gentleman from new jersey is recognized. >> thank you. Chairman for currently has a proposal before it that would create federal rules of the road for data centers or any other large concentrated sources of electricity demand, wanting to connect to the power grid.
▶ 1:18:59Back in december, ranking member castor and I wrote to the commission demanding that as you develop a framework to allow data centers to hook up to the grid, that you ensure that they do not unfairly impose costs upon american families and small businesses. So I just wanted to ask each of you, just yes or no, if you will, will you commit to prioritizing energy affordability in all your decisions this year? And I'll start with the chairwoman. >> yes, sir.
▶ 1:19:29>> thank you, commissioner rosner. >> yes, commissioner. >> sea. >> yes. >> commissioner. Chang. Yes. And commissioner lassard. >> absolutely. >> thank you. Uh, obviously, we're going to be watching and holding you to the standard. Um, commissioner ross, let me ask you a question.
▶ 1:19:46At the start of the year, you laid out a number of your 2026 priorities, including accelerating generator interconnection via new technologies, implementing regional transmission planning reforms, and improving load forecasting. So my question is, can you explain, uh, briefly, how these priorities will help keep electricity affordable and reliable, if you will. >> thank you. Ranking member pallone. Um, so it's really simple.
▶ 1:20:14Um, in many of the parts of the country, we have a scarcity of supply. Uh, and that's showing up as high prices. And what we need to do to lower those prices is we need to build. And as we're doing that, we've had a number of tech companies come and testify back at ferc's hearing room, and they've said, we'd like to go fast and we'd like to pay for it.
▶ 1:20:35And so my view is we should let them, um, and at the same time, um, you know, while many of the permitting decisions on where to build and, and the permits for the power plants are state decisions, what we can do at ferc is make sure our processes under the federal power act go as fast as possible. And so that means when we're looking at safely connecting new generation to the grid, let's use automation and ai to actually speed that up and help get those power plants studied and connected faster.
▶ 1:21:05Um, let's make sure we're planning for the right transmission system so you can connect new generators to the grid. Just, um, this past year, we got some results back from a fast track of, uh, a new natural gas plant in pjm. Um, that got an upgrade cost of one over $1 billion to connect that plant to the grid in pjm. And what that cost was really all about was a lack of transmission.
▶ 1:21:33It was like over 100 miles of 345,000 volt transmission lines that were needed to get a natural gas plant on the grid. The and it wasn't just gas, it was batteries, too. It was all sorts of dispatchable generation that while not all of them got billion dollar costs, they got many, many over $100 million. And what that says to me is the grid is really congested. We need to invest in the grid.
▶ 1:21:55The other place where I think there's a huge opportunity is, is on the load forecasting side, where I don't say this as a skeptic, I think in some cases our forecasts might be too low. But what we need to do to unlock action is make sure that people believe in the forecast so that we can start planning. And so anything either a point too high or too low, if we get the forecast better, that's going to unlock new investments.
▶ 1:22:20And so, uh, for me, um, you know, I'm really committed to, to work with colleagues here to use the authorities that that congress has entrusted the commission through the federal power act to make sure we're doing everything we can to get new generation connected to the grid, that we're working with our state partners to make sure that the costs go to the right people. Thank you for the question. >> I guess I thank you, I guess I have a minute. Let me ask commissioner chang.
▶ 1:22:47But whatever time is left, you mentioned your opening statement, the importance of making sure we're creating long term solutions rather than ad hoc fixes. Can you just talk briefly about the importance of addressing issues like interconnection timelines in a way that works for everyone, and not just a small subset of generation resources or types of customers? I got 45 seconds. >> yes, I think that's fine.
▶ 1:23:09Um, the fundamental principle of ferc's work is nondiscriminatory access to the transmission system. So I think, you know, with all of the work we're doing on interconnection, uh, processes and improvements in that and regional transmission planning process, we uphold that principle. And that means it's open access for all resources to participate in the wholesale market. >> thank you. Thank you.
▶ 1:23:37I don't want to hold up chairman latta's attendance record. I read about your attendance record. I yield back, Mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields back. And as mentioned by the chair, we will take a brief recess and we will reconvene ten minutes after the last vote is called.
▶ 1:56:56Order, and at this time I'm going to recognize the vice chair of the subcommittee, the gentleman from texas, for five minutes for questions.
▶ 1:58:58Thank you very much. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas, the vice chair of the subcommittee, for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Commissioner, I'm going to come to you. I was pleased to see your september statement calling for the need to modernize the review process of lng facilities, which I have three in my district under the commission, section three authorities, in my opinion, case specific authorizations for routine adjustments to existing facilities is kind of unnecessary and probably could
▶ 1:59:28Be improved. The commission recently issued a notice of inquiry on authorizations for certain activities at liquefied natural gas plants. Did I mention I have three of those in my district? And anyway, when when does the. My question is when does the commission anticipate issuing a notice of proposed rulemaking for a blanket natural gas act, section three authorization program?
▶ 1:59:51And how could something similar to a blanket certification process for these facilities benefit our ability, U.S. ability to permit energy infrastructure in a timely manner going forward? Your thoughts? >> thank you congressman. Those concerns are one of the reasons that I was really proud to be able to champion that effort, and I'm very grateful for my colleagues, for their hard work, for us to be able to move that effort forward. It's important for us, of course, to do this procedurally appropriate way to get all public input.
▶ 2:00:20So we've done that at the at the first stage. Right now, our staff is hard at work analyzing it so that we can move forward as expeditiously as we can. Um, my focus here, as it is in all things, is to get that balance right between speed when we need changes quickly and making sure we're doing it in a legally durable way. So, um, I'm doing everything I can as a commissioner and working with wonderful colleagues to move that quickly.
▶ 2:00:42But to your broader point of how important this is to our infrastructure needs, I think when it comes to lng exporting facilities, there's a really important role for us to play in speeding up that needed infrastructure. Supply of natural gas is not the problem for our country. The concern is lack of infrastructure. So when it comes to domestic natural gas pipelines and exporting infrastructure, that's a both and in my view we can and should do both of those. We should do them faster. And it's a really important.
▶ 2:01:09And because when it comes to being able to meet our commitments to our allies when it comes to exporting lng, that's critical for our national economy and for national security. So I am personally committed, and I know that my colleagues are also working very hard on this issue, and I'm really encouraged with the progress we're making internally. >> well, I appreciate that. I was waiting for you to hear waiting to hear something about how this helped our allies. If not, I was going to ask you that question, so thank you. Uh, commissioner rossman, I'm going to come to you.
▶ 2:01:38Over the last several years, we have seen duplicative efforts between ferc and phmsa regarding lng safety standards. It's my understanding that phmsa is working to develop these standards, and I believe that they are the rightful regulator for these standards. How can ferc work with other agencies to remove some of these duplicative efforts that ultimately just wind up slowing down the development of infrastructure? Your thoughts? >> well, thank you, vice chair webb, for the question.
▶ 2:02:08Uh, I am aware that that phmsa is is working on an updated set of safety regulations and that they hope to publish it, uh, I believe this year. Um, and, uh, again, my my philosophy is, you know, we got to make sure things are safe. And so, you know, on a bipartisan basis, we we've been been ensuring that that happens at ferc. Uh, and, uh, as my understanding again, is phmsa is working on the updated regulation.
▶ 2:02:36And, you know, I think as the lead agency for safety under the statute, uh, my my hope is that they, uh, they can lead us in that area. >> any thoughts on other agencies that we could do the same process with to keep from duplicative? Is that a word?
▶ 2:02:54>> uh, you know, I think, um, when I think about doing the work of the commission, um, our piece of that work, uh, generally is, is is narrow on some projects. So, for example, I know you asked about about lng, but hydropower, for example, um, we recently approved a pump storage project, uh, at our meeting, uh, this this winter, and it took about seven years from application to permit.
▶ 2:03:22But the ferc process took about two years to do the environmental document. That's what the statute tells us to do. The other pieces of that clean water act took the state three years. National historic preservation act took six years of consultation. And for me, I don't want to say that those aren't important parts. I think they are very important. Those other responsibilities that other agencies have under clean water act and national hydropower act.
▶ 2:03:50But, you know, as a person working on ferc who's very focused on every electron, every molecule we can get our hands on, um, when we have processes that go out three, 4 or 5, six or even more years. You know, I wonder sometimes whether that's really prioritizing that process. You know, put differently, under the federal power act, we make decisions in 60 days, and we do it very carefully, and we respect the statute. And, you know, sometimes deadlines. >> thank you. My time is up.
▶ 2:04:20And I would add that it doesn't prioritize americans as well. I yield back. >> well, thank you very much. The gentleman's time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from california's 50th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to thank all of you for the work you do. And I assure you, I'm sure you sense how this has become a really sort of in the center of a lot of conversations that are really important. And what you're doing is, um, is really critical. Mr.
▶ 2:04:45Chairman, I want to start by asking unanimous consent to add to the record an article called can expanding transmission reduce electricity costs? By travis fisher of the cato institute and nick loris of the conservative coalition for climate solutions. >> uh, without objection, so ordered. >> so one of the things we talk about a lot here is, um, is inter-regional transmission. We're kind of stuck here.
▶ 2:05:05And I think one of the issues that my republican colleagues often raise is that they think that the costs, uh, can't be allocated fairly recently, um, my colleagues wrote a letter opposing some planned transmission lines in the midwest on the basis of costs were not reasonable. And they wrote, quote, the energy permitting reform act of 2024 contains provisions to standardize the definition of transmission benefits for cost allocation.
▶ 2:05:32Under that bill, only widely agreed upon benefits would count toward cost sharing, and contentious items like state specific climate policy benefits would not be included. I agree with that. I would like to get to that point. Um, Mr. rosner, you've been around here for a little while. How how do we get to that point where, um, cost allocation that happens routinely within regions can happen with the same way, in the same same confidence, uh, as inter-regional high voltage transmission. Again. >> congressman peters, thank you for the question.
▶ 2:06:00Um, I'll say a couple of things. First of all, one of the ways that we worked on transmission cost allocation in, under order, 1920 a and b was to give the state, uh, regulators a much bigger voice from the beginning of the process. So they get to see the model runs, they get to set the scenarios, they get to decide what their region should consider. Um, and that I think, is very important to getting more consensus.
▶ 2:06:29And we're seeing that process unfold in a really positive way in the pjm region in the mid-atlantic. Part of. >> what I'm suggesting, I'm talking. >> about inter-regional transmission, I understand. So I want to take that consensus that you've developed and figure out a way to get that to work across regions. >> exactly. And where I agree with you, where I think you could apply that same model is to inter-regional. And I think we see really big benefits from inter-regional.
▶ 2:06:55I think at congress's direction, did a study that identified 35gw of transfer capability for reliability. And the there was a separate study that identified the cost of inaction on inter-regional at $12 billion a year. >> I think I understand that. So is this something that congress needs to lay out? Do we need to lay out criteria for you, or is this something for could identify. >> what what I would say is this is ferc has spent a lot of time on regional transmission. We have not spent nearly as much time on inter-regional.
▶ 2:07:25And so I think if this is a priority for congress, I would welcome your direction. Um, and, uh, that's my answer. >> I think. >> I think it's a priority for congress. So that's my that's my request. I don't believe that there's a I think I don't believe that there's a dispute about the importance of getting this right. I think there's dispute about how to get it right. So if ferc could help us with that, I think would be greatly appreciated. >> be delighted to assist in any way I can. >> let me ask you another question.
▶ 2:07:52We have this concept of national interest corridors, where the department of energy is supposed to lay out the map for where inter-regional transmission is supposed to go. Um, we it never produced any lines. We provided backstop authority. I helped write what senator manchin added. It never produced any lines. Um, I think it's time to do something different. Uh, and I wonder whether that is an authority you think that ferc should hold rather than the department of energy? >> I think, um, at best, the existing process by statute would take eight years.
▶ 2:08:22>> it's terrible. >> and that doesn't sound like it's meeting the moment to me. And so I think if congress wanted to give ferc more tools, um, to, to do siting more efficiently while maintaining of the very important role that states play. You know, I think, I think that that could be something that would be delighted to provide input on. >> let me pick on commissioner.
▶ 2:08:42See, is this something where you can see, um, maybe a different rather than the government drawing a bunch of, uh, proposed lines for, uh, inter-regional transmission, maybe something where we could let the market define that, let those be the national corridors of interest, uh, and let ferc permit them without worrying about the department of energy. Would that be a better system? >> I think it certainly would. It comes to inter-regional transmission. I am more focused on cooperation as opposed to mandates.
▶ 2:09:07I think we have seen a lot of good results in recent winter storms, even some the past couple of weeks of neighboring regions helping other regions. So I do think that there is room for that sort of cooperation so that we can see some of those. >> what about the involvement of department of energy? Is that necessary or is this something for can handle? >> congressman, I would defer to congress when it comes to the assignment of responsibilities to doe and to burke. >> all right. Well, I appreciate your, um, we have some more questions for the record, but we'll submit those in writing. Thanks again for being here. >> thank you so much.
▶ 2:09:36The gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from alabama's sixth district for. Okay. I'm sorry. Um, the gentleman from georgia's 12th district. Good. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Thank you, chair, for holding this hearing with the federal energy regulatory commission. And thank you for your testimony today.
▶ 2:10:00Um, ensuring reliable and affordable, affordable energy is critical to the mission of the federal energy regulatory commission. I'm glad to have this opportunity to discuss how this impacts my home state of georgia. Uh. Commissioner. Uh, the state of georgia is accomplishing what many areas of the country seem to be struggling with.
▶ 2:10:23We're moving with speed to power data centers, hyperscalers, and advanced manufacturing, while also balancing affordability for all customers. This is just not talk. We have the results to prove it. For example, after announcing a three year freeze to base rates, georgia power recently received approval from state regulators to move forward with 10,000mw of generation to keep up with georgia's rapid growth.
▶ 2:10:51It's because of this very growth that customers will experience rate stability for years to come. Georgia power committing to customer savings of at least $102 for the average retail customer beginning in 2029, after the rate freeze. I believe that georgia's vertically integrated market structure is a big part of this success story. I know the states want state wants to keep delivering on our shared goals of speed to power and affordability.
▶ 2:11:20I also know that your commission is working on several rules that are designed to address many of these issues in other parts of the country. Commissioner, do you think it's possible for other parts of the country to benefit from the example and success that we're seeing in the southeast? >> thank you. Congressman, I want to I want to thank you for that question. I know georgia is in georgia is certainly an outlier in excellence. And it starts from the outstanding public service commission, public utilities commission that you have there.
▶ 2:11:50Uh, you've got a lot of great public servants there that has moved the needle in so many different ways. The rest of the country could certainly learn from the state of georgia, especially on interconnection efforts that that they've undertaken. I know, um, they've certainly had a past former president there, commissioner pridemore, that certainly has moved the needle. I think, like the great american poet toby keith said, we need a little less talk and a lot more action. I think the state of georgia has definitely taken that mantle. >> good. Thank you. Uh, chairman and commissioner.
▶ 2:12:18Uh roessner. Uh, ferc maintains permitting authority for interstate natural gas pipelines, but has very limited and targeted role in permitting interstate transmission lines. Some policymakers and advocates have called for permitting parity between how pipelines and transmission lines are treated.
▶ 2:12:40However, this parity argument fails to consider the fundamental differences between the bulk power system and the interstate natural gas pipeline network. Chairman and commissioner roessner, can you talk about the nuances between pipelines and electric transmission systems in terms of resources planning, engineering and cost allocation considerations?
▶ 2:13:04And how might a state's visibility into their own electric infrastructure better inform state permitting authority compared to federal takeover? >> thank you for your question. For the question, sir. Um, well, the bulk electric system is probably the most complex machine that humans have ever built.
▶ 2:13:24And by that nature, it is incredibly different from the pipeline system, which is a common carriage system when it comes to permitting large interstate transmission projects. There are considerations of states who res over the resource mix. For example, many states prohibit the production of coal plants, others allow it.
▶ 2:13:52Those types of choices will very much change the cost of electricity in those states. And when you have an interregional transmission line, the cost of electricity is then mathematically spread across people with very different political and environmental views. When it comes to a pipeline, in comparison, the from the wellhead to the lng export terminal or wherever the pipeline is going, the interests are shared among the pipelines and the shippers.
▶ 2:14:22All of them are trying to get gas out of the ground and moved. Pursuant to first mission to ensure plentiful supply of natural gas at reasonable prices. And so the interests are much more aligned when it comes to the pipeline system versus the electric system. >> uh, commissioner, you got 13 seconds to, uh. >> I'll be very brief and very fast. I think we need to do both quickly.
▶ 2:14:47Uh, and and so, you know, I know congress is given ferc some responsibilities on the natural gas side, given them a separate set of authority on a backstop basis on the transmission side, um, my perspective is we really need electrons. We need we need molecules to, uh, and we need a natural gas grid and a power grid that are both ready to accept those. And so defer defer to congress for how best to do that. >> thank you. Uh, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you.
▶ 2:15:17The gentleman's time has expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey's eighth district for five minutes for questions. Thank you. Chairman. >> over the past year, this committee has talked a lot about the rapid deployment of ai data centers and their impact on our constituents energy bills in new jersey. My constituents saw their energy bills increase by 15%. Without meaningful policy and oversight of industry and grid managers, this issue will only get worse. In december, ferc announced the development of a rule that focuses on co-locating power generation in the pjm region.
▶ 2:15:48This rule found that pms tariff that governs co-location of generation with loads was, quote, unjust and unreasonable because it lacked clarity on rates and conditions that would apply to co-location agreements. Commissioner rosner, just a top level overview for the folks at home.
▶ 2:16:04This rule requires pjm to revise its tariff to provide more clarity for data center customers looking to co-locate energy generation, to revise its tariffs, and behind the meter generation rules, and requires pjm to submit a report regarding reliability reliability concerns. Is that correct? >> that is. >> thank you. And, commissioner rosner, why did the commission decide to pursue a rule on co-locating energy generation? >> thank you for the question, congressman.
▶ 2:16:34Um, the reason was, um, and I'll just speak for myself. Um, but I think it's largely consistent with the commission's order, which is, um, a unanimous order. Uh, look, we have this challenge where people want to connect new generation and new loads, in this case, data centers quickly. Um, and the approach that we took in that and that pjm, uh, order, which I'll be very high level about because it's still a pending matter.
▶ 2:17:01Um, is that let's put all the options on the table. Let's, let's make sure all the options from front of the meter to behind the meter are all legal, so that we can take advantage of flexibility so we can take advantage of people bringing their own generation so we can take advantage of when you co-locate a resource you build, you have to build less infrastructure, and that might be faster. But also let's make pathways for if you want to be on the front meter, let's do it. Let's make that faster too, by letting you connect on an interim basis. So that was that was the philosophy.
▶ 2:17:32>> appreciate it. And, uh, chairman sweat is co-locating energy generation with large loads such as data centers, an effective way to bring down energy costs for residential ratepayers. >> thank you for the question. As with this issue and every other issue before us, I always go back to the statute that congress has authorized ferc, and we must ensure that the rates that come out of our commission are just and reasonable.
▶ 2:17:59So considering the rates that american consumers paid was top of mind in our negotiations. And we all across this table came up with a solution that we thought best safeguarded americans in providing the direction that we did to pjm in december. >> I appreciate that. That's why last month, congressman kassar and I introduced the price act, a bill that would require data centers to bring their own renewable energy so that ratepayers aren't footing the bill for data centers in their communities.
▶ 2:18:27And I think a diverse group of stakeholders would agree that data centers co-locating their own energy generation, requiring new rules and clarity around tariffs are a good thing. But it's essential that we're holding grid managers to the highest standards to ensure that they're doing everything they can to make sure that ai data centers are actually held accountable for the resources they use. The companies that are building these data centers are some of the biggest companies in the world. Without proper guardrails, everyday consumers could end up subsidizing their infrastructure.
▶ 2:18:55Grid managers and ferc must ensure that these billion dollar corporations are paying for the full cost of the strain they create. Chairman sweat, how does ferc plan to ensure that these large, highly profitable entities are responsible for the full cost of their demand? >> thank you for the question. Since I've been at ferc for the past few months, we have received a multitude of filings that facilitate connection of large loads and data centers from these giant billion dollar corporations that you were mentioning.
▶ 2:19:24And from my experience, in every order that we have approved, those data center builders are perfectly willing and volunteering to pay for all of the costs associated with connecting them to the grid. Many of them are looking for solutions and opportunities to bring their own generation to reduce the strain upon the grid that their connection brings.
▶ 2:19:47And so it's very top of mind for us, and I think that it's something that actually everyone is unified on across the table here and with the entities who are looking to connect and build in our country. >> I appreciate that. And lastly, is the commission committed to strict oversight of grid managers and putting residential consumers first? >> the commission rates that come out of our jurisdiction are, in general, across the country, about one third of what consumers pay.
▶ 2:20:16The other portions are the cost of producing power locally, and also state programs for the one third of the bill that ferc is responsible for. We are absolutely committed to protecting consumers. >> I appreciate that I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from alabama sixth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Commissioner.
▶ 2:20:40If you look at the data over the last 20 years or so, utility spending on transmission distribution has greatly outpaced outpaced spending associated with fuel and generation. It's largely due to the state renewable portfolio standard laws that require much more transmission to connect remote and distant resources like wind and solar, and to populated areas. The same time, the shale gas boom has lowered generation and fuel costs.
▶ 2:21:06Given these trends, to what extent are the rising transmission distribution costs, particularly in states with aggressive clean energy mandates contributing to higher retail electricity prices and affordability challenges? >> that's a fantastic question, and I'm thankful that you asked it. I think the days of ferc approving projects without affordability and reliability are in the past.
▶ 2:21:31I think every question that has been posed before the current version of ferc, we have to ask those two questions of it. I think as we're looking at transmission, I think we can acknowledge that more transmission is needed in this country, but it has to be thoughtful and well planned. Transmission has to be transmission that is needed, has to be transmission. That is the best bang for the buck for the consumer. Um, as we're looking to build out transmission, we also have to look at pipelines. I think, uh, I think we're woefully inadequate in our pipeline capacity in this country.
▶ 2:22:00You know, I know how the public american public gas association in my office last week, uh, an american public gas association is responsible for 430 communities across the us that own and operate their retail gas distribution entities. Um, and I and I want to I want to quote one of the letters they sent to us recently, nearly 95% of the 1000 public or community owned natural gas systems in the united states are captive to a single pipeline, one pipeline that's the only rates they have.
▶ 2:22:29If we build more capacity for pipelines, that's going to drive prices down. Americans are hungry for that. The municipal governments are hungry for that, and we aim to give that to them. >> along the same line, from 2000 to 2019, uh, new investments went 400%, one from 9.1 billion to a little over 40 billion.
▶ 2:22:49And one of my concerns is and this committee knows this, I'm very focused on securing our own, our supply chain of processed and refined critical minerals and rare earth elements, which you have to have to to to do these build outs. They're used in power sensors and actuators, transformers, cables, cable costs have nearly doubled since 2019, with transformer costs up 75%.
▶ 2:23:11So how much of the cost increase for electricity that ratepayers are paying is because of price increases for materials like copper and aluminum. Electrical steel, in addition to components like transformers and the other components that you need. >> absolutely. Congressman, that's a that's a great point. I think that, uh, the cost of materials have gone up over the past administration. I think that, uh, it's more expensive now to build out our transmission. Um, but prices generally are going to go up.
▶ 2:23:40And I think that the time to tackle some of these issues are now we have to be thoughtful with our resources and our supply chains to make sure we're giving the biggest bang for the buck for the. >> we've closed about 300 hydrocarbon facilities around the country, most of them coal, and there are plans to reduce coal capacity from 100, uh, down to 159gw from 318 gigawatt peak in 2011.
▶ 2:24:00And while I'm concerned about those plants being shut down, there may be an opportunity there in regard to power generation for our refining processes. And what I wanted to ask you is, is are the transmission lines from those shuttered coal fired plants still intact? I think a very quick answer. >> yes. >> okay.
▶ 2:24:25I think it makes sense for us to to look at going back under those facilities or brownfields, maybe use small modular reactors. Uh, we're still we're still going to have some issues building, finding building turbines and boilers and the other, uh, infrastructure needed. But what are your thoughts on that about, uh, locating, uh, smrs on those facilities? Because the if the transmissions are still in line, that would meet the power needs of the facilities.
▶ 2:24:51We need maybe even data centers, but could also increase the baseload power for local residents. >> I think retrofitting older, older power generators, older power plants with new technologies is absolutely the right approach. I think that american innovation is the way that we're going to succeed, and the way that we're going to progress toward the next generation. Uh, and I think all options need to be on the table. I think that's a common sense approach, and it deserves due diligence.
▶ 2:25:15>> real quick, uh, we've got some some collaborative effort from the other side of the aisle on on reforming, on permitting, on, uh, nepa in particular, uh, to that that we think would improve the efficacy of environmental reviews and better enable the infrastructure build out to unlock america's energy potential. Have any of these been addressed in recent permitting legislation, uh, that you would think was satisfactory? And. >> uh, it's not to my satisfaction. We've got a long ways to go. >> thank you. Mister. >> thank you very much.
▶ 2:25:45The gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from virginia's fourth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, chairman and ranking member castor, for this very important hearing today. And I want to thank the commissioners for being here. Um, as others on the committee have noted, one of ferc's primary roles is to ensure that electric electricity rates are just and reasonable.
▶ 2:26:06And that mission and the work of ferc, is more important than ever as we confront the surge in electricity prices that threaten the financial stability and security of millions of americans. Last year, electricity prices increased by 13%, far outpacing a year over year inflation rate of 2.7% and wage growth of approximately 3.8%.
▶ 2:26:28In other words, power costs are rising faster than both paycheck and the price of other everyday necessities, placing an increasing strain on american households. As ferc continues to address energy efficiency, we must ensure that the projects approved by the commission benefit all ratepayers without placing undue harm on historically disadvantaged communities who have for too long bear the brunt of the impact of electric of energy projects.
▶ 2:26:57Chairman sweat, in your opening, you said that you want all americans to prosper, and one of the contributing factors to whether people prosper is public health and the impact that their community and their environment has on their health.
▶ 2:27:18So while it is important to expedite the interconnection of new energy sources to the grid, we need to do so in a way that balances that fact and doesn't place further burden on communities that have historically faced the brunt of pollution and negative health outcomes from reliance on fossil fuels. Ferc finally stood up its office of public participation nearly five years ago, decades after a statutory mandate to do so.
▶ 2:27:42How does help ensure that disadvantaged communities and tribes have an opportunity to ensure that the commission takes their need and legacies of pollution into account? >> thank you for the question and I appreciate your service. As a born and raised virginian who still lives there.
▶ 2:28:01Um, ferc has a statutory mandate under the administrative procedure act to meaningfully consider any comments that we receive when we are engaging in certain actions. And that very much includes the comments of the tribes and any disadvantaged communities who participate in our dockets.
▶ 2:28:24And when we receive those, we, our staff pours over them to ensure that we meaningfully look at them and engage whenever possible. We also have pre-filing options for many of our larger energy projects, where staff reaches out, and op does play a role in that, in educating the communities and also helping them understand how they participate in ferc dockets if they would like to.
▶ 2:28:52>> well, and I'm glad to hear about the outreach, because I was also a regulatory lawyer for 20 years. Um, and I can tell you that the energy companies and the, uh, they have high powered lawyers that make sure they know when to comment. But average citizens who have a project built in their backyard often don't find out about it until it's way too late.
▶ 2:29:15And I represent many of those communities who, you know, particularly charles city county, which is a locality that is overly burdened by energy projects. And usually by the time the community finds out about it, it's too late for them to have any meaningful comment or influence on the siting of that of that, um, project. And we've seen an impact on their health outcomes. They have some of the lowest health outcomes in the commonwealth.
▶ 2:29:44Um, and we've seen an impact on cultural sites and historic sites. And I think even the companies in virginia have recognized that it is far better for them to get that community engagement up front. And so any efforts that ferc can take to ensure that community input happens on the front end and not so far down the path that it's too late to have an impact, uh, is better for ferc.
▶ 2:30:08It is better for the company trying to build that plant, and it is much better for the community that has to share the burden of that plant. And so with that, I'll have to submit the rest of my questions, uh, for the record. But I thank you for your for your answer. >> thank you. >> you bet. >> thank you very much. The gentlelady yields back the balance of her time, and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from ohio's 12th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. Chairman.
▶ 2:30:37Um, thank you all for being here today. Um, my first question is for commissioner. See, um, opponents of lng exports often claim that exports hit record highs during times of peak domestic demand, therefore raising natural gas prices for consumers. However, recent data can end that argument once and for all. During winter storm fern daily us lng export demand fell 20%.
▶ 2:31:04Redirect redirecting redirecting the lng feed gas supplies to the domestic market. Commissioner, you have called for ferc to modernize the review process for lng facilities. Do you agree that lng exports provide flexibility and act as a balancing tool for the us natural gas market? >> I do, congressman, and thank you so much for that question.
▶ 2:31:32I think when it comes to natural gas on the domestic side and internationally and our exports, we don't have a supply problem. We have plentiful supply. The problem we have is constraints of getting it where it can do the most good. So that's why it's critical for us to focus on streamlining infrastructure development in all areas, including when it comes to lng exports.
▶ 2:31:52Our exports play a critical role for our national economy and for national security, and it's important for us as we have a statutory responsibility to to license export facilities and changes there to do that and as efficient and legally durable as we can. So I'm committed to doing that and working well with my colleagues as we continue in that effort. >> very good. Thank you, madam chair. My next question is for you. Um, thank you for being here, miss. What? Um.
▶ 2:32:16When opponents claim that lng exports, uh, rise domestic prices, they ignore the factors that actually increase natural gas costs for consumers, such as the lack of pipeline capacity during the storm. Regions with pipelines to deliver natural gas as it's significantly lower prices than areas with constrained capacity.
▶ 2:32:39In fact, on january 26th, 2026, the monday after the winter storm, fern northeast winter gas prices were up 2.4 times higher than the appalachia supply. Ferc has taken important actions to address constrained pipeline capacity, like repealing order 871 and examining cost thresholds for blanket approvals.
▶ 2:33:01Can you discuss what other ferc action ferc is considering taking to expedite the construction of needed energy infrastructure projects? And how will these actions help deliver affordable, reliable energy to our constituents? >> thank you for the question. Um, I, I also am very concerned about northeast prices.
▶ 2:33:22And one thing that was really shocking for me coming out of the storm was in the northeast during fern, 40% of generation came from fuel oil or diesel, and that's simply because we don't have enough gas infrastructure to bring gas to the to new england. So I fully agree with you. That's why we are looking to wholesale across the board, take a hard look at our permitting actions.
▶ 2:33:51And it comes to pipelines in particular. We are trying to streamline our nepa process. Congress and the supreme court together have taken action over the past year that make our mission much easier.
▶ 2:34:04But now I believe that it is on ferc to have the tools that the supreme court and congress have given us to now really do some self assessment inside of the building of what ferc does in its environmental analysis under nepa that are no longer required by the law. And as congress has said, ferc is an economic regulator, not an environmental regulator.
▶ 2:34:28And so, in my view, if there are things that we are doing that exceed what is required by law, those are things that slow down infrastructure permitting and development that are unnecessary. >> thank you. Thank you. A follow up to that, um, pipeline capacity, lng exports are critically important to gas producers in the district that I currently represent across the utica and marcellus shale. So I greatly appreciate the commissioner's attention to these issues.
▶ 2:34:56Um, madam chair, I think I'm going to run out of time. So I'm going to try generation and load interconnection. Timelines do not match the speed that is needed to serve new large loads. Currently, if a large load has on site generation or supplies its own power, that generation is studied as if 100% of the power is injected into the grid. Instead of serving the load. Similarly, a large load is studied as if it will withdraw all its generation needed from the grid.
▶ 2:35:25I'm going to run out of time, so I apologize. I will submit these questions. Uh, and we'll follow up. Thank you very much, madam. Mr. chair, I yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentleman yields back, and the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from colorado's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you so much, Mr. chairman. Mr. chairman, this is a critical moment for america's power grid. Both energy bills and electricity demand continue to skyrocket.
▶ 2:35:51As we've been discussing today, recent reports show that electricity prices are up 13% just since president trump took office. And so all of us are focused on keeping the grid both reliable and affordable, as reflected in the title of this hearing. So I want to ask our panel today. We'll just go down, um, and the question I want to ask you, we talk about this a lot in this committee.
▶ 2:36:18In this subcommittee, do you believe in an all of the above policy and a diversity of generation resources? Commissioner chang? >> yes, that's a simple question. Absolutely. >> and and, um, commissioner c yes. >> different resources bring different critical. >> thank you. And different and chairman swett. >> yes. >> and, um, commissioner rosner. >> yes. >> and commissioner lazarte. >> yes.
▶ 2:36:47Not only do I believe it, it is required by the federal power act. >> yes. You're right. It's also required by law now. So I want to talk about the importance of a diversity of generation resources, because everything has a role to play, including some of the newer technologies like wind, solar, advanced nuclear, geothermal and of course energy storage.
▶ 2:37:07I want to get that on the record, because unfortunately, there's been some concern in this administration about whether they, in fact, do support all of the above strategy, even though they give lip service.
▶ 2:37:22The administration has made very clear that in practice they do not, because they've killed hundreds of clean energy projects representing billions of dollars in investments over the past year, projects that were approved at every level simply because they were renewable energy projects. Now in its long term. So so that that's it.
▶ 2:37:46A different issue is the long term reliability assessment, released just last week by newark, begging regulators and policymakers to remove barriers to generation and transmission development. So let's make sure we have, um, agreement here to, uh, yes or no. Should ferc and congress support the building? This is not a trick question. Okay. Should the congress then support the building of generation and transmission?
▶ 2:38:16Commissioner chang. >> yes. >> commissioner c yes. Uh, chair. Chairwoman. Sweat. >> uh, well, as a ferc regulator, congress has specifically said that. >> do you support building of generation and transmission? >> I support the state's ability to choose where generation is. >> yeah, but do you support the building of transmission? Are you not going to answer that? >> um. >> yes or no? Do you support building and and transmission? >> transmission can be a valuable asset whereas john.
▶ 2:38:47>> okay. Um, commissioner lesser. >> yes, I support it. And I believe the chair was acknowledging the state's role in these activities. >> I do, I do too. I was just asking her if she supports I. It was not a trick question. Yes, ma'am. But what I do want to say is donald trump's war on clean energy is making it virtually impossible to do that. Let me give an example.
▶ 2:39:09Last year, ferc approved an interconnection plan to to let projects, including several gas fired plants, expedite the process by which certain types of generators could interconnect to the grid, essentially to cut the line.
▶ 2:39:26My understanding is when pjm, one of the northeast regional transmission organizations, ran this fast pass past project, it initially selected 51 projects that would bring 11.8gw of capacity to the grid.
▶ 2:39:45But now, just a few months later, a number of those projects dropped out because of transmission constraints on the power grid, thus sharply decreasing the expected power being brought online. So, commissioner chang, I want to ask you, it seems that this illustrates that one off ad hoc solutions to expedite interconnection studies are not silver bullets.
▶ 2:40:10Could you talk briefly about the role that adding more transmission plays in adding generators and more sources of power demand to the grid? >> thank you for your question. As I suggested in my opening statement, it is absolutely right that, you know, we need to do all the reforms that we have already done on the interconnection of generation, but just because we speed up certain generators in the interconnection, the front end of the process, it doesn't mean they can actually just connect to the grid without the grid,
▶ 2:40:42Uh, capability being enhanced. So we need to pay our attention now to making sure that the grid can actually handle both the interconnecting load and the generation, so that we can bring up all the data centers and other large loads to the system. >> thank you, I yield back. >> the gentleman lady's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from tennessee's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you for the witnesses for being here today. Um.
▶ 2:41:10You know, uh, I wanted to discuss the critical role that ferc holds to ensure our pipelines, interstate, interstate transmission and hydroelectric dams remain reliable and keep prices just and reasonable. I'd like to highlight one of ferc's responsibilities mandated by section four of the natural gas act. This section requires that rates charged for interstate pipeline services be just and reasonable.
▶ 2:41:40In my district, which is east tennessee, the services, uh, a natural gas subsidiary, has filed a ferc section four case for 123% rate increase, even though ferc has stated during the testimony stage of this case that there is only justification for a 36% rate increase, natural gas consumers must pay the higher rate until the case is litigated or reasonable, and just compromise settlement is reached.
▶ 2:42:08This case is particularly important for my district because this company serves as the only interstate natural gas pipeline that traverses tennessee, and is the sole supplier for many of my constituents in the industrial manufacturers. So with that in mind, I would like to submit this letter from chairman terry lewandowski of the processed gas consumers group. For the record, Mr. chairman. >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you.
▶ 2:42:34So this goes to commissioner c first, uh, by statute, ferc must maintain that rate increases meet a standard of just and reasonable. In general, does ferc's approach of a case change if a pipeline has captive industrial taxpayers ratepayers? >> congresswoman, our core mission is to make sure that we are ensuring just and reasonable rates. And so when we are when we are doing that role, we are engaging in that analysis.
▶ 2:43:00Of course, I can't speak to that particular matter that's pending before us, but we are committed to looking very closely at the record to make sure that any increases are, in fact, justified. There are a lot of factors that are many of the critical ones, as you mentioned, are the people who are ultimately paying those rates. We are very concerned about all of those factors. >> yes, commissioner lassard. >> yes, ma'am. Uh, I also can't speak to something before us, but I can tell you, um, as I, as I previously mentioned, very concerned about captive pipelines. Uh, we need to build more capacity in our country.
▶ 2:43:32We need more pipelines in our country. It's going to drive prices lower. It's going to protect the consumers. >> yeah. Thank you, sir. Chairman sweet, when ferc reviews the facts of a rate increase, increase case, how do you ensure that cases are processed in a timely manner and the rate increase is just and reasonable? >> thank you for the question. I have myself have litigated several ferc pipeline rate cases.
▶ 2:43:54I am very aware of how long they have taken in the past and the burden on both sides, with both time and resources to litigate them. And with that in mind, I am taking a hard look at what we can do to make our processes more efficient. Congress could also have a role in limiting, uh, any litigation exposure to ferc decisions. >> I've already thought about that. Um, most of tennessee is served by tva through co-ops and municipal utilities.
▶ 2:44:21But the kingsport board area where I live sits in the pjm region. And some utilities in that market build and plan their own long term generation instead of relying on pjm capacity market, which has helped protect, uh, customers. As pjm prices have spiked. So as a pjm ways changes to that market, it's important that these utilities can keep making those long term investments.
▶ 2:44:47So chairman sweat, how will the commission ensure that utilities can continue planning and building the generation they need to keep up with the growing electricity demand in their territories? >> thank you for the question. With every matter that comes before us, we take a hard look at the record that is filed and all of the evidence on it to see what is the right result and how to protect consumers to ensure that they pay just and reasonable rates.
▶ 2:45:13So I can commit to you that my colleagues and I will take a hard look at any filing that involves the utility trying to build more generation. >> okay. Uh, commissioner lasarte, to what extent did, uh, rising load forecast, data center growth and extreme weather risk factor into ferc's decision making to modernize its blanket certificate program? >> that's a great question. I know large loads forecasting and growth are at the top of our minds.
▶ 2:45:40Um, we immediately tackle these issues as priorities for us. Uh, upon coming to ferc, um, I'd like to see more of a consensus on the load forecasting, a little bit more of a standard deviation than I'd like. And it's hard to plan when there's so much disagreement on how much load we're going to need in the future. But regardless, we're going to need more generation. We're going to need more transmission. We need more pipelines. So all of those things are going to be necessary for us to be successful. Um, but we need to convalesce around, um, some certainty and what our load is going to look like.
▶ 2:46:09And it's going to look different today than it looks three months from now as it looked three months ago. Um, but these are challenges before us that we have to meet. >> okay. Thank you sir. My time is up, so I yield back. Mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. Gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from california. Seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. And I want to thank all the commissioners for being here today.
▶ 2:46:33And thank you for the important work that ferc is doing to keep the lights on and trying to bring down the cost of electricity. Um, now, ferc doesn't directly regulate retail utility rates, but you do have an indirect role in determining what americans pay for their bills. Commissioner chang, can you explain very briefly how utilities recoup capital costs from their customers? >> sure. Um, thank you very much for your question.
▶ 2:47:02Uh, without getting too technical about this, um, utilities make capital investments, I should say investor owned utilities make capital investments. And the return on and of of those capital are passed directly to customers. And, uh, slightly different accounting works for municipal or public power resources.
▶ 2:47:27So in a nutshell, the amount of investments made, uh, are directly passed on to the captive ratepayers of those jurisdictions. >> okay. So after the trump administration illegally canceled billions of dollars in grant funding for grid resiliency projects, the capital cost of those projects will not be borne, will not be borne by those utilities.
▶ 2:47:53And that means those costs will be passed on to the ratepayers, which means higher utility bills. Is that correct, commissioner chang? >> in general, the capital investments dollars have to come from somewhere. If it's not coming from ratepayers and it's come from some other sources.
▶ 2:48:18So so somebody unless capital projects are canceled, they are going straight to ratepayers. >> okay. Um, commissioner chang, you've expressed support for advanced transmission technologies that can make bigger, more efficient use of the grid. I share your enthusiasm for some of these technologies. I'm particularly hopeful that distributed power plants and advanced conductors can help free free up more capacity quickly and cheaply.
▶ 2:48:49As many of you have emphasized, we need more power as fast as possible, and at the same time, we have to get a handle on rising costs. But the current back order for gas turbines is now stretching out to 2030, and the cost of new gas plant has skyrocketed 2 or 3 times what it used to be. On the other hand, a distributed power plant can be deployed in less than six months for less than $1 million.
▶ 2:49:16So what can ferc and congress do to help encourage the use of these and other advanced transmission technologies? >> thank you for your question. Um, I'm also a big supporter of advanced transmission technology. My view on that is, you know, broadly speaking, uh, us is at the forefront of technology for all industries, and it should be so as well for transmission technologies.
▶ 2:49:42And, you know, I don't really take a prescriptive view on what specific technology needs to go on specific projects. On the other hand, I feel like using advanced transmission technology to squeeze more out of our existing and new system is an is a no brainer, and utilities should take advantage of what what technologies are available and they should move forward from pilot projects to
▶ 2:50:13Really broad adoption of advanced technologies with the purpose of bringing down costs for consumers. >> okay. Thank you. Um, chair swett, there are a lot of questions with regard to the appropriate federal role in supporting and improving the interconnection process for large energy loads. How do you view ferc's role in this? >> thank you for the question.
▶ 2:50:37Um, ferc has jurisdiction from congress over the bulk electric system, so large loads can have many options and flexibility in the way that they connect to the electric system, both from the state jurisdictional and the federal jurisdictional level.
▶ 2:50:52So as someone who adheres very religiously to the statutes that congress has provided, we are committed to allowing and facilitating large load connection within our jurisdiction in a way that ensures that consumers pay just and reasonable rates. >> okay, now I only have about 15 seconds, but commissioner rosner, do you share the same view? I may have? >> yes.
▶ 2:51:21I think the commission has jurisdiction over connecting, uh, large load to the transmission system. And so we've had an approach where, uh, this winter we've tried to make that more efficient. >> okay. I have more questions submitted. Thank you. >> the gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from iowa's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you.
▶ 2:51:48>> chairman and ranking member castor, for holding this legislative hearing on reliability and affordability. And I also want to thank our witnesses for your time today with us. The electricity industry is in a state of sustained change. Ferc must work harder than ever to meet these evolving challenges with innovative and proactive solutions. In iowa, we know that reliable, affordable, abundant, sustainable energy. And we know what it means.
▶ 2:52:12While winter storm fern brought dangerous conditions to much of the country, iowa experienced even colder temperatures than usual. And it's cold. Yet our utilities kept the lights on and the heat flowing. That's because we're invested in a resilient grid and a diverse resource mix. When other states were struggling, iowa crews were helping them recover. And as our witnesses said, tremendous thanks to all of those who were keeping the lights on and keeping transmission lines up and running.
▶ 2:52:40We're at a time of fundamental change which all of you have mentioned during this hearing. The question before us is, how do we solve evolving challenges in the near, medium and long term? We must accelerate infrastructure deployment, ensure adequate generation capacity, modernize transmission planning, and do it all while keeping energy affordable for families and businesses and keeping up with the maintenance required by our aging grid. The american people are counting on you at ferc to get this right.
▶ 2:53:08They need confidence that when they flip a switch, the lights will come on and that the electricity bills, most importantly, won't break the family budget, which you've all mentioned as well. Innovation, not regulation, should drive our energy future. Mr. rosner, you had mentioned, uh, vast, uh, increasing and acceleration, uh, energy demand. And you also mentioned the number of projects and plants that have been brought online while you've been as a commissioner.
▶ 2:53:36Is that in keeping with what happened during years 2021 through 2024? >> the, uh. >> were we adding capacity between 2021 and 2024? >> well. >> I don't think I don't have that the backward looking number with me, but I'd be happy to provide it in the record.
▶ 2:53:59What I can tell you is that last year, we approved a number of fast track processes that are going to connect about 50gw worth of new generation to the. >> and would you say that adding that capacity is going to help keep electricity prices affordable? >> yes. And reliable. >> thank you. Um, commissioner rosner and uh, commissioner c so I'm going to ask you both and hopefully we won't run out of time. Um, load forecasting, which Mr.
▶ 2:54:23Uh, just mentioned and who bears the risk of load forecasting. So pbm, pjm just released their annual forecast. They cut their 2028 summer peak forecast by 4.4gw. Wow. That's a 2.6% reduction from last year's estimate. Pjm increased their long term ten year forecast significantly. These aren't small numbers.
▶ 2:54:46A four gigawatt swing affects billions of dollars in capacity procurement and infrastructure spending that ratepayers have to pay, and those forecast changes happen every year as assumptions get updated when rtos procure capacity or approve infrastructure based on load forecasts that later get revised downward. Who pays for that mismatch? Right now, it's 100% taxpayers. And one of the things mentioned, uh, commissioner lester mentioned consensus on load forecasting.
▶ 2:55:18So sharing some of that, um, incomplete or um, uh, erroneous forecasting. So is there any mechanism at ferc or at the rto level to true up costs when forecasts prove too high? Are we just accepting that ratepayers will have to pay for whatever gets built based on today's best guess about tomorrow's load? Well.
▶ 2:55:44>> congresswoman, I think when it comes to accurate load forecasting, that gets at one of the really important issues in front of us. Um, there are real concerns if we both under build and overbuild the system. If we underbid, the lights don't come on, as you mentioned. But if we overbuild ratepayers are paying for capacity, that's not necessary. We need to get that right. It's challenging right now because we're in a new moment with data centers and other large load growth. So there's a lot of developing consensus and best practices about how do we get more certainty when it comes to load forecasting.
▶ 2:56:13We had a very helpful technical conference last summer with a lot of experts on reliability, talking about best practices and making sure we can do more to firm up those numbers. Because you're absolutely right. We can't have perfect certainty. I wish we could, but we can do better and we can keep moving. >> commissioner roessner. >> yeah, I agree with my colleague. And, um, you know, I would just say that load forecasting is about getting more confidence in the decision. Um, and that's important for for getting agreement on the build.
▶ 2:56:42Uh, to your question about, you know, what do we do if we over or over build, um, you know, in places where we have markets in the country, we often have these things called these adjustment auctions. They have various different names, but basically it's an opportunity to buy or sell, um, more based on increased precision of knowledge of the future. The other thing I'd just say, though, is the point you made. >> the gentleman's time has expired, and if you would want to submit that in writing, we greatly appreciate it.
▶ 2:57:13>> submit that in writing. Thank you. >> I chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas is 33rd district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, I think that everyone here knows that right now, families are really facing high electric costs, uh, a lot because of the weather, but also because of delays in connecting new generation and storage to the grid. Uh, and interconnection queues are now measured in years, not months. And those delays have real costs that show up on people's utility bills.
▶ 2:57:41As you know, in texas, we take a little bit different approach to how that works in ercot allows generators to connect to the grid more quickly through what is often called a connect and manage, uh, or energy only interconnection model. And these projects can come online sooner, except some curtailment risk and rely on operational management instead of waiting for every transmission upgrade, uh, to be built first.
▶ 2:58:04And that has allowed texas to connect to large amounts of new generation faster than other regions, and in many cases, that, uh, has increased supply and helped put downward pressure on electric prices. And so I want to ask you, as it relates to federal interconnection policy, uh, and accounting for speed and real world outcomes. And I want to start with you, commissioner rosner.
▶ 2:58:28Uh, your testimony states that accelerating new electric generation is essential to reducing consumer costs and that interconnection delays, uh, directly contribute to higher bills. Uh, as you know, ercot connects generation faster than any other region by allowing projects to interconnect before major network upgrades are built. From an affordability perspective, do you agree that getting lower cost supply online sooner, uh, even with some curtailment, is better for consumers than waiting years for full deliverability?
▶ 2:59:00>> thank you for the question, congressman. And you know, I will say as it is amazing what texas has done. Uh, you know, I think that the pace of growth in texas is, is really stunning. Um, and I think the question you're asking about how what are the things that are enabling that, that connect and manage policy is something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about as a commissioner here. Um, you know, what I would say is this is that it's quite clear that we need more options on the table.
▶ 2:59:31Um, the current wait to connect new generation to the grid is, on average, between 4 and 5 years. Our ideal, uh, proforma rules that we we implemented in 2023 get it down to a year and a half. Um, I think it should be even less than that. Um, and I think there's, um, opportunities in the connected managed type system, um, that are quite, you know, there's there's real evidence that they're going to push the ball forward and would would be delighted to keep working on them.
▶ 3:00:01>> do you think there's anything more that ferc can do to ensure that order 2023 is implemented in a way that actually enables that outcome in other regions, rather than preserving delay under a different label? >> well, I think it'd be good for us to get those models fully implemented around the country. I think we're at the very tail end of of compliance with that rule. Um, and, uh, you know, what I would say is this is that, you know, from, from concept to implementation, it's taken us about six years to, to do order number 2023.
▶ 3:00:30Um, one of my focuses on are on what can we get industry to do without regulation. And so I've written extensively about interconnection automation. That's one thing they could do. Uh, another thing that industry can bring us. And in fact, one region has brought something perhaps similar to connect and manage and filed it at ferc. When the industry reaches consensus and brings filings to ferc that can move a lot faster. >> right? Right. Exactly.
▶ 3:00:59I wanted to ask you before my time expires, I know that you also emphasize persistent interconnection bottlenecks that perpetuates scarcity conditions that help keep prices high for customers. In texas, faster interconnection has helped reduce scarcity by increasing supply, with developers not captive ratepayers that are having to bear the risk. Uh, and from a consumer protection standpoint, isn't that preferable to a system where delays keep prices high and costs are ultimately borne by taxpayers?
▶ 3:01:31>> that's right. I think, again, you know, if the bear one of the barriers is to not have adequate transmission capabilities. And if that becomes a barrier for interconnecting load and generation, we need to focus on making sure that the transmission grid is ready and available. And and related to your question about connect and manage in ercot, I think it is, uh, it is a plausible path.
▶ 3:01:54If there is a well planned and well, well idea, a good idea of how to finance the transmission upgrades necessary. And ercot has that in place, and it's more of a timing issue of connecting and manage, because there is already a plan for transmission upgrade and a way to pay for that transmission upgrade.
▶ 3:02:19And I think in the first jurisdictional jurisdictional markets, I think we put the transmission upgrade process upfront because we want to make sure that in ferc jurisdictional markets, the generators interconnecting the to the grid are actually paying for the upgrade costs that they trigger. So there's a slight difference, but as long as there's a planned process to pay for and upgrade the system, I think, uh, connect and manage is a plausible path forward.
▶ 3:02:49>> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you. The gentleman's time has expired, and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from oregon, second district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Thanks to the panel for being here. Um, chair swett, there's there was some discussion some years ago about maybe even more recently than that, our national security being at risk because of chinese, um, developed transformers. Is that risk now behind us? >> no, sir.
▶ 3:03:18That risk is very much in front of us. >> and what are we doing about it? >> uh, that risk is the reason that I personally am prioritizing the ability for americans to build, connect and operate data centers in our country within our geographic and electric barriers, to ensure that not only are we protecting our data and sheltering it from our foreign adversaries, uh, which is paramount to maintaining our
▶ 3:03:49National and economic security. But we also would have the added benefit of more american jobs in building, generating, and running those data centers. >> I'm not sure what that does about the risk, but I'm going to I'll submit my questions, uh, later.
▶ 3:04:02Uh, commissioner lester, uh, you say in your press release on january 14th concerning the snake river complex, with which I'm extremely familiar, uh, that you are happy that the eis was issued, but then you state that you think more efficiencies need to be found. No surprise, given it's been 23 years, uh, while we waited for that dam relicensing to occur 23 years. So I agree with you. More efficiencies need to be found.
▶ 3:04:31You say, in the relicensing process, can you share with what some of those might be? >> that's that's a great question. I think obviously, um, the supreme court ruled in seven county in a unanimous decision that we need to do better with nepa reforms, nepa review. And while that was aimed at the judiciary, um, we need to take that to account in the executive branch, too. We need to take a look back and pare off our what our focus has been, uh, that is not statutorily required.
▶ 3:04:58And we need to focus on the mandates given by congress and get the job done with the assignment that has been given. And we haven't done a great job of that in the past. Uh, but ferc is a small part on our counterparts in the states. As commissioner rosner stated earlier, um, they take too long with some of these decisions. Uh, and the snake river is a prime example. >> can we stop them? I'm very familiar with that. The, the the conditions imposed by the state of oregon cost three, $400 million.
▶ 3:05:24And and and it will cost more, maybe as much as a billion over the next, uh, life of the license. So I get it. The question, though, is what can ferc do, if anything, when it comes to the imposition by a state? Actually, you can start with a federal agency if you like, but the start with the federal agency. Can you guys do anything with the condition imposed on a license by a federal agency? >> I think we could work better with our federal counterparts, um, to determine what the priorities are, to identify bottlenecks and to come to common sense solutions as an independent agency.
▶ 3:05:53That doesn't mean we can't cooperate and we can't work better with our sister agencies. I think there's improvements that can be made there, and I hope that we can come to some common sense solutions. >> what I'm most concerned about is the state, any state or against. A great example, though, of dragging his feet. I understand there may be a tool now that we can use. Thank goodness for that. But but then imposing extraordinarily expensive conditions.
▶ 3:06:14And I'm just not clear on exactly where you guys fit under the power act when it comes to trying to control those conditions, because the truth of it is, these are being imposed to get rid of dams. That's the whole idea. So I want to know what you, uh, what your commission has the power to do to try to help prevent that. Those those incredibly important power generating assets from being destroyed through conditions. >> yeah. I think that's a great question. I think it's one that has struggled with for many decades.
▶ 3:06:43I think there is a delicate balance here with the states that we can make improvements on. But I would also implore congress to take action to make permitting reform, uh, more durable. For all you know, the snake river is the lifeblood of many states as it relates to electrical generation. >> um, I'm I'm going to these all of these questions are extraordinarily important, given that they across the kind of the spectrum of energy generation. Um, I probably should ask all of you this question, but we don't have time.
▶ 3:07:11The challenge that we seem to face right now is one that's existential as to affordability and also as to the ai race, which you have had occasion to remark upon in earlier questions. Your thoughts are we going to have to give up one for the other, or do we have a path? >> no. Giving up one or another is unacceptable. We need to have a balance. We need to have a balanced approach. We can do both and we must do both. >> thank you. Yield back.
▶ 3:07:42>> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from new york's 14th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and I'd like to thank all of our ferc commissioners for joining us here today. Um, chairman sweat, ferc ferc's mission includes assisting consumers in obtaining economically efficient energy at a reasonable cost, correct? Yes.
▶ 3:08:08And to achieve this mission, ferc sets the rates that utility companies must pay for transmission of wholesale energy. Correct. >> we we litigate right filings at ferc to determine what outcome is just and great. >> and then after that, public utility commissions determine rates that utility companies charge people on their monthly utility bills.
▶ 3:08:34>> it's my understanding that public utility commissions and state policies make up at least one third of utility bills that consumers pay. Yes. >> yes, about one third, as you mentioned. And one of the things that I know unites all of us here is that increasingly, americans are struggling in paying those utility bills. In 2024, more than a third of households skipped out on necessities to pay an energy bill, and close to a quarter of households kept their homes at hazardous temperatures.
▶ 3:09:03To avoid the cost of heating or cooling. And yet, the energy utilities charging americans are among some of the most powerful, powerful and profitable industries on earth. Um, take consolidated edison, or con ed, which is the utility company that serves new york, and my constituents in queens and the bronx. Con ed is one of the largest privately owned energy companies in our country.
▶ 3:09:32And, um, and in their most recent history, we have seen incidents of gas explosions, power outages, um, apartment buildings that are exploding, uh, after gas leaks. And in 2018, a short circuit at con ed power plant in astoria shut down all of laguardia airport for several hours.
▶ 3:09:54Yet despite these crises, con ed is growing their utility bills on new yorkers and raked in almost $2 billion in profits in 2025. So naturally, many of our folks here in new york are asking, why is con ed profiting off of the energy market while they are dealing with unreliable and increasingly unaffordable energy? So I want to break this down for them.
▶ 3:10:23Utilities collect what they spend on operating expenses like salaries and office space. Um, from our bills. And if a utility company spends $100 on operating expenses, it collects $100 back spread out across all the bills people pay to that utility, but they don't get any profit.
▶ 3:10:44Instead, companies like con-ed make an average 10% profit through a return on equity for making physical upgrades to the transmission grid. So if utility spends $100 on physical upgrades, they would collect $110 on our bills, with $100 playing for the wires and poles and $10 going to profits. It collects these profits from increases in our utility bills. The more they spend on physical infrastructure, the more profit that they stand to make.
▶ 3:11:14But as I outlined with carnegie's history in new york city, those upgrades aren't translating to the more to actually more reliable service for constituents. There are these projects that are being named as outlays. And some in some ways, people are questioning if these investments are actual upgrades to our system or are they just stated outlays and that are labeled as as upgrades. But it's ferc that sets the rates of these profits for transmission system investments.
▶ 3:11:45Um, so, chairman swett, what is the average return on equity that ferc has set for utilities like con-ed? >> well, I've as someone who has litigated rate cases at ferc, uh, I'm very familiar with the contours of various rates, but different utilities have different structures. I'm happy to work with your staff, um, and our commission staff, to answer any specific questions you have about utilities. >> currently.
▶ 3:12:11It does seem like the rate averages do approximate around 10% for transmission utilities. I mean, they could be higher. They could vary. But does 10% sound about right in terms of an overall average? >> I'm not sure. >> okay. Um, well, going back to ferc's mission, uh, do you believe that this model of a set return on equity is the most economically efficient model for everyday americans?
▶ 3:12:41>> we are taking a hard look at everything that impacts everyday americans. And I can tell you from personal experience that we have very heated debates at this commission, from all of my colleagues sitting here. It's a race to lower any bill that we can. So we are happy to work with you and your staff on any suggestions you may have on how we can accomplish our shared goal. >> great. And, um, I'm sorry. >> the gentleman's time has expired. Thank you so much.
▶ 3:13:07I'm sure the gentlelady will submit her questions to the commission, so thank you very much. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas 11th district for five minutes for questions. Thank you. >> Mr. chairman. Chairman swett, I'll start with, uh, the, um, this this real world example we just had during winter storm. Winter storm fern.
▶ 3:13:29Um, which I think was a a good real world test and an example, uh, across different states that we can kind of compare and contrast. But, um, the results, I think, were pretty clear that areas with sufficient pipeline capacity and access to domestic natural gas, um, experienced lower prices than those that didn't. And the reliability factor was indeed higher there as well.
▶ 3:13:55Uh, in the northeast, the limited pipeline capacity meant that power plants, uh, couldn't get enough natural gas when demand peaked. And as a result, grid operators had to burn oil and rely on imported energy to keep the lights on. Uh, but meanwhile, states closer to natural gas production in the appalachian basin saw much lower prices. Uh, and this was not a shortage of energy, but it was a failure to move it when it was needed.
▶ 3:14:17Um, price data during the storm showed that consumers in new england and connecticut and new york paid between 100 and 15% and nearly 300% more for natural gas than they did in places like northeastern pennsylvania. Uh, and those price differences indeed worsened as the storm intensified. So my question is, how is ferc approaching the timely permitting of interstate gas pipelines needed to serve demand and lower costs for americans everywhere?
▶ 3:14:47>> thank you very much. That's a very important question that we are all unified in looking at how we can develop more infrastructure to reduce costs for americans. As my colleagues have said today, when it comes to specific pipeline applications that come before us, as congress has required under the natural gas act, we have to take a hard look of whether or not an individual application is required by the public convenience and necessity, and a big part of that analysis is whether the
▶ 3:15:19Pipeline will bring economic benefits to the public, and in many cases, that would come in the form of lower costs on utility bills. >> um, let's let's kind of pull on that a little bit more. Um, you know, how is ferc working with states that block pipelines? Um, and how are you balancing the affordability mission when you have states like new york that actually kill pipeline projects? >> that is a $100 billion question.
▶ 3:15:46Um, well, effectively, under the regime that congress has created and the clean water act, states have the ability to veto a project if they do not give a certification. And that is a problem that ferc simply cannot work around. And if congress saw fit to change that, we would be happy and ready to implement any directives. >> is it your belief that having those pipelines in the capacity to deliver that natural gas lowers prices?
▶ 3:16:19>> well, I think, uh, as you very wisely stated at the beginning of your comments, it's the proof is in the pudding. The fact that areas that don't have enough gas are paying maybe 300 times what they should, as you said, is unacceptable. That is not a just and reasonable rate for americans. >> so these states are basically saying to their own constituents, we don't care. You're going to pay up to 300% more, uh, when demand peaks and we don't have the capacity to deliver what you actually need.
▶ 3:16:47That's that's a sad that is a sad reality that we're living in. But, um, you know, let's talk about dispatchable energy. Um, in new england, more than 40% of power generation come came from fuel oil during the coldest period of this storm. And despite aggressive policies intended to reduce fossil fuel use, we still saw those numbers. Similarly, new york relied on heavily on natural gas on nuclear and dual fuel generation to maintain that reliability.
▶ 3:17:15So, um, maybe talk us through, um, and is it fair to say that without access to dispatchable fuels, particularly natural gas, um, many regions would face, um, reliability challenges and maybe talk us through the reliability challenges specifically that you see. >> thank you for the question. Using the storm that impacted millions of americans, I think is a great paradigm to look at this.
▶ 3:17:39If you look at the peak demand of the country, if we combine them all together, and that was overseen by our office of electric reliability at ferc, who worked around the clock, 42% of the power provided and that kept americans warm during fern was gas across the country, and coal was 23%, nuclear was 14%, and petroleum was 4%.
▶ 3:18:04If you put all those numbers together, over 75% of the power that kept our grid reliable during fern came from dispatchable generation. >> what is ferc stand for? The acronym. >> ferc has no ability to choose a generation mix that is squarely within the state's purview. Under the federal power act, we accept the generation and the market design as it comes to us.
▶ 3:18:32>> I was talking about the reliability piece, the, uh, the ah, but yes, thank you for that, because that's where I was getting at. You've read my mind and I yield back. >> well, thank you very much. The gentleman's time has expired, and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from massachusetts. 14th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. Chair. I'm glad my friend from texas raised the new england grid during winter storm fern. Um, I was there representing 800,000 people who were there was cold.
▶ 3:18:59Let's talk about what happened, uh, in new england and how this administration's, uh, weighing in. Uh, so, first of all, what happened during winter storm fern and the stress it put on the new england grid on the massachusetts grid is not an outlier event. We're seeing that winter peak demand forecasts are going to be increasing by about seven, excuse me, by about 36% over the next decade. So we better prepare for this. And we have been we had, uh, the transmission line between massachusetts and canada.
▶ 3:19:29Hydro-quebec, which has been a significant win, took way too long to build those those transmission lines. Um, but what happened during this storm was that line shut off, and it shut off because despite contract claims, uh, hydro-québec needed all the power for canadian consumers because it was pretty cold up there, too. You know, it didn't shut off. Was the wind what happens during a winter storm off the cape cod islands is the wind blows really, really hard.
▶ 3:19:59And actually, looking at the analysis of that storm, uh, those turbines would have been blown, would have been rotating at absolute peak capacity during the beginning part of the storm and during the middle part of the storm, during the actual central thrust of that storm, they would have automatically shut off because the wind would have actually been blowing too hard. And they want to maintain the structural integrity of the turbines. It would have generated tremendous amounts of electricity for my constituents, lowering costs, relieving stress on the grid.
▶ 3:20:29Um, here's the problem is that the trump administration keeps on canceling permits, and I hear the frustration from my republican colleagues about permit uncertainty for natural gas, about the keystone pipeline. How can they possibly be silent when the trump administration is acting in an arbitrary and capricious manner to upend states ability to diversify their energy portfolios, like massachusetts is doing? For precisely the scenario we saw with winter storm from the trump administration is now zero for five in court.
▶ 3:20:56I mean, how many judges need to tell this administration to stop breaking the law before they simply allow my constituents to access reliable, affordable electricity? This see, you had mentioned in your written testimony how important it is to have, quote, legally durable signals that get steel in the ground. Is that right? >> yes. >> would you agree that we also want legally durable signals to get steel in the water?
▶ 3:21:23>> I think my role as an economic regulator is to make sure that we have the best options available. >> so just ground, not water. Do you do we want legally durable signals that get steel where steel belongs? >> as chairman swett mentioned, we are not responsible for the generation make up of different. >> you just wrote right here how important it is to promote legally durable signals that get steel on the ground. You don't agree that we should also be promoting legally, legally durable signals that get steel in the water?
▶ 3:21:49>> my focus is on the areas within ferc's jurisdiction, and I do believe in the importance of legally durable signals. >> for ground and water. >> for infrastructure, and for the energy to deliver reliable and affordable power to all americans. >> I mean, you're kind of torturing the answer. It's do you want legally durable signals or not? Because if ferc is not supposed to be, it's supposed to be resource agnostic. Presumably it is the position of ferc that regardless of whether the generation is coming from water, the ground deep in the ground, up in the sky, you want the legally durable signal?
▶ 3:22:16Yes, >> congressman, when we have issues and matters in front of us, yes, I agree it is important for us to act in a legally durable way. >> commissioner rosner, in our last 90s here, um, given the rising demand that new england is expected to see in the coming years, we should be adding significant generation capacity to ensure reliability and affordability outside of of offshore wind. Offshore wind is one part of a of a necessary portfolio.
▶ 3:22:40Do you think it would be helpful if states like massachusetts overturn moratoriums on new nuclear power generation to unlock that clean, affordable and reliable baseload power? >> I think what's obvious from that winter storm is that there was strength in a diverse set of resources. And so from my perspective as a ferc commissioner, you know, we don't have the ability to tell states what to build. But what I would say to massachusetts and any state is we need electrons, and electrons don't wear fuels.
▶ 3:23:08But if you can get us more electrons, that would be great. >> from offshore wind and from nuclear. >> from everything. >> I yield back. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from south carolina, seventh district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you, commissioners, for being here today. Uh, energy demand is obviously increasing. We see that we hear that from our constituents.
▶ 3:23:36And I think it's really critical that our regulatory system supports reliable, affordable power, uh, while promoting efficiency and modernizing the grid itself. Um, at the heart of this, I've heard a lot of talk today about permitting and permitting reform and oversight processes that are disciplined, uh, predictable and focus on outcomes rather than unnecessary delay.
▶ 3:23:59Uh, I think it also requires, uh, to to commissioner, uh, perspective, what he talked about earlier was a strong federal and state partnership, uh, with ferc and state utility regulators working in lockstep, uh, to plan infrastructure, allocate costs fairly. And, of course, most importantly to the people that we represent. Keep the lights on. Um, chairman sweat, the seven county supreme court decision, I think, was remarkable in a way, because it was won unanimous.
▶ 3:24:25So, uh, in a body like ours that oftentimes, uh, has several different ways to view any particular issue. When you see unanimous supreme court decision, it kind of raises your eyebrows a little bit. Um, but the court held, um, uh, that that courts should, uh, afford substantial deference to an agency as to the scope and contents of an environmental impact statement, how is ferc changed its nepa practice in response to the seven counties decision?
▶ 3:24:55And to piggyback on top of that, what is left to do, uh, to to come in line with that decision? >> thank you very much for the question. Uh, thankfully, the seven county decision allowed ferc, in my opinion, to realign our emissions analyzes with our statutory responsibility as a primarily economic regulator charged with encouraging the development and plentiful supply of natural gas at reasonable prices, per congress's instruction.
▶ 3:25:24So what that means when the rubber hits the road, now we no longer analyze the indirect emissions from upstream production or downstream combustion. That in itself has cut down the time that is necessary for environmental review from staff in the building. It cuts down what applicants have to analyze. And that was a huge move in itself. Thank you. Can you. >> can you quantify that? Like how much did that actually cut down that I'm.
▶ 3:25:55>> I'm happy to get with our staff and see how if we can quantify those numbers for. >> you please do I mean we like I mean I love I'm just just curious about that. I think it's kind of remarkable. >> we also no longer use ghg emissions as a basis to require a much more resource heavy environmental impact statement, rather than staff performing an environmental assessment, because that used to be a trigger for that much longer analysis. We no longer do that after seven county.
▶ 3:26:20We also no longer used the social cost of carbon metric, which the commission was employing in its nepa analyzes for several years. >> thank you for that. Um, commissioner rosner first blanket certificate program allows certain projects to complete routine, limited scope actions under set cost and notice requirements, either through automatic authority, uh, or a prior notice process.
▶ 3:26:43In june of 2025, ferc issued a noi and temporary temporarily raised the prior notice cap. How would permanently increasing these cost thresholds and expanding eligibility to more projects qualify, uh, for expedited authorization, improved permitting efficiency, and meet rising energy demand? >> congressman, thank you for the question.
▶ 3:27:08Um, the commission's existing blanket, uh, program for section seven, as you mentioned, um, was temporarily, uh, adjusted up. And we're considering a final rule. We're also considering the same for hydropower projects and lng projects. You know, the way this stuff works fundamentally is, you know, these routine changes that we really understand, the environmental impacts. Um, it doesn't take as long to fully adjudicate those.
▶ 3:27:36And so, uh, you know, these programs have, have worked. Well, uh, I'm really excited to expand it, uh, to other energy sources like hydropower. Um, and, uh, look forward to working with colleagues and chairman swett to, to finalize those rulemakings. >> thank you for that. And, commissioner, while I got you here with my limited time left, you recently sent a letter to all six grid operators requesting information on how to improve load forecasting. Uh, in south carolina, we're vertically integrated. Other places are different, obviously.
▶ 3:28:07Um, how, uh, uh, what we're seeing across the country is the rapid development of data centers, general demand. Anyway, large energy users has made the process, uh, difficult, to say the least. How do you view the role of effective load forecasting to inform efficient planning. >> and the gentleman has five seconds. >> real simple, better data, better decisions. >> thank you for that. Runs a tight ship here. Thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> I'm ready to vote again. Thank you very much.
▶ 3:28:37Gentleman's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from washington's eighth district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, mister chairman. And thank you to all the commission for being here today. Uh, as you all know, the west is undergoing quite a transformation in its development of wholesale markets. My region I'm in washington state, so I'm in the pacific northwest.
▶ 3:29:02My region is excited by the prospect of the day ahead electricity market, where power can be traded in a marketplace not just in real time, but up to 24 hours in advance when it's needed and when surging demand growth and increased threats like severe winter storms or straining the grid, or predicted to strain the grid. A more nimble and efficient grid, of course, is what we are all after in order to have affordable and reliable power.
▶ 3:29:27So if done right, a well crafted, well organized market can increase efficiency and lower costs and help states transition to cleaner, cleaner energy. But as utilities and energy marketers choose to join either kaiser's dam or sps markets plus or stay out entirely, these decisions about where utilities and with whom utilities will trade power is going to create boundaries between these two markets.
▶ 3:29:57And we're already seeing this divide and these market seams, which is what they're called, have the potential to cause some serious inefficiencies that could lead to the benefits of either market being really diminished. So it's, um, especially important, uh, in this case, especially for me and my constituents, to get this right. Um, at this point, utilities in our state are split, and these seams are going to be a real challenge.
▶ 3:30:26So, uh, chair sweat, first questions for you. Just as the head of the commission setting agenda items and proceedings is addressing the challenge of making this fragmented system and these seams work on your agenda. >> thank you for the question. It's on my agenda because it's important to people who are under our jurisdiction. Yes. Uh, I'm very aware of how fragmented the west is, and it's very geographically. And, uh, and from an engineering perspective, very different from the rest of the country.
▶ 3:30:57And we at ferc stand ready to evaluate any proposals that entities in the west would like to make. >> I appreciate that, and the fact is that all the different entities, even just in my district, are split in which way they're going. And so I guess my next question is, I'm glad it's on the agenda. I didn't ask you where it is on the agenda, because that might put you on the spot or might be very difficult to answer, but can you just tell me what your next steps are?
▶ 3:31:24We've got to figure out how to make this transition in the grid work, and make sure that the seams are, uh, seamless. >> uh, well, as with other proceedings, we stand in a receptive posture to evaluate any proposals that the regulated entities would like to bring to us.
▶ 3:31:46So when your constituents decide what they would like to do, if that is something that comes within ferc's purview, then we will evaluate the proposal to ensure that it results in just and reasonable rates.
▶ 3:32:00>> okay, so as I'm getting back to my constituents, I should ask, for example, bonneville to be in touch with you, the public utilities to be in touch with you to also have seattle city light, for example, in touch with you to maybe convene and have a technical conversation about how to do this, just to if they request that they can get that from you. >> we are happy to work with you and your staff to provide whatever information or help you need. Okay.
▶ 3:32:28>> and then can you tell me, just as we look for what's coming down the road, so they request this and you're willing to oblige to help? Um, can you talk about what actions for can take, uh, and has at your disposal to ensure dependability and reasonable rates as you're maneuvering through this new landscape?
▶ 3:32:54>> so, um, in the context of seems our office of electric reliability and has a vast amount of staff that are constantly monitoring the grid from a reliability perspective and seems present a very unique issue when it comes to reliability. So we are constantly monitoring in the office of enforcement from a rate perspective and the office of reliability.
▶ 3:33:17From a reliability perspective, we are looking at the whole country all the time, and I know that seems our specific focus so that we ensure that they are functioning properly within our jurisdiction. Okay. >> thank you. Um, I appreciate your attention to the issue. I know it's really important. I look forward to having further conversations, maybe about how you've resolved these issues in other places or even with all of you. Um, and I'll keep tracking this issue along with utilities in my district. Yield back. >> thank you very much.
▶ 3:33:44The gentlelady yields back, and the chair now recognizes the gentlelady from florida's 15th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you to the federal energy regulatory commission for appearing before our committee here today. The united states is seeing an unprecedented rise in energy demand. Our energy infrastructure must be prepared to meet the moment as advances in artificial intelligence and manufacturing continue to progress.
▶ 3:34:14Last week's winter storm underscored the importance of a secure and resilient electric grid. Energy security is an essential part of our national security, and as our grid faces cyber and physical threats as well as natural disasters, my home state of florida frequently experiences those types of events. My priority is addressing these challenges and ensuring the continuous flow of safe, reliable and affordable energy to consumers.
▶ 3:34:42Chairman swett, thank you for your leadership at the ferc, strengthening cyber security of our critical infrastructure has long been a priority of mine, and I am particularly interested in the work of ferc's office of energy infrastructure security. Could you tell us a little bit more about the role of this office and the work that it does to support ferc's mission of energy reliability and affordability? >> thank you very much. That's a very important question.
▶ 3:35:11Uh, we affectionately refer to that office as oasis in the building. They are our they're they're looking at everything from an eagle eye view, but they're also on the ground. And what they do, I think is very special. They ensure that ferc is in coordination with the three letter agencies across the government. So that one, we are informed of the threats and we are educated on how to address them.
▶ 3:35:37And with that information, ice has the flexibility to go into specific utilities where we identify particular threat vectors that are critical to the grid at large. Because of the information that we have from our partners, and they can actually go into utility, identify a threat, um, work with the utility to make them understand where their vulnerabilities are and show them how we can solve them at ferc.
▶ 3:36:05Or we can work with them together with best practices from other agencies. So we keep learning and gathering and then going in on the ground and trying to improve our, um, electric security across the country. And with that information, they also work with the office of electric reliability. That helps make more permanent standards for cybersecurity that are applicable across the country.
▶ 3:36:31So, um, we have a collaborative best practices approach combined with a more permanent regulatory approach. >> you just touched on something that I would like to hear a little bit more about, because I believe it is so critical to the success of not just your work, but other agencies who are protecting our critical infrastructure, and that is your partnerships with other federal agencies.
▶ 3:36:54Would you elaborate for us a little bit about which are some of those three letter agencies that you work with and why you believe that collaboration and those partnerships are helping to strengthen our critical infrastructure? >> thank you. So as a country, we are facing, uh, attacks and potentially every day from foreign adversaries. And those are across the board. And that includes our infrastructure.
▶ 3:37:21So the three letter agencies I'm referring to are largely in intelligence gathering. And also doe is one of them as well. And in order to solve these problems and to defend our country as a whole, we need the best and biggest amount of information that we can get. And so that collaboration is very important.
▶ 3:37:44>> and a related question, as you're working with some of our other government stakeholders and agencies to be sure that you're getting that threat landscape and the most current information, are you also working in partnership with private stakeholders to help them elevate their security posture, particularly as it relates to those cyber and physical threats? >> yes, absolutely. Our office, our office reaches out to private utilities, but it's also a two way street. They are now becoming aware of our capability to help them.
▶ 3:38:13And so oftentimes utilities will approach ferc staff for help. And we go back and forth. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield the balance of my time. >> gentlelady yields back. Chairman recognizes the gentleman from new york for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chair. And I thank our commissioners for being here today. And what is it? A very important topic.
▶ 3:38:34Uh, chairman sweat, what do you see as the role for enhanced long term planning processes that accurately account for growing demand, as well as increasing risks from extreme weather events and maintaining an affordable and truly reliable electricity system. >> I'm so sorry I missed the first part of your question. >> sure. What do you see as the role for enhanced long term planning in regard to, um, accurately accounting for growing demand?
▶ 3:39:04>> thank you. Given that we're meeting the prospect of historically escalating demand, long term planning is incredibly important. >> so I'd like to dig into a few areas where improved planning could benefit our electricity system. We cannot efficiently plan our electric infrastructure if we're if we aren't able to accurately forecast just how much energy will be needed.
▶ 3:39:27Electricity load forecasting methods, which have historically been based on incremental and predictable growth a long, may no longer be applicable to today's increasing large load demands. We need accurate forecasts to ensure that infrastructure is built at the right scale and speed to meet future demand, while also protecting against overbuilding infrastructure and causing unnecessarily higher electricity prices.
▶ 3:39:55So commissioner rosner, in september, while serving as acting chair, you asked the regional grid operators about their methods for forecasting large loads. Can you tell us why you felt that was important, and what were the big takeaways from that inquiry? >> thank you, congressman tonko, for the question and for highlighting this important issue. Um, it's really simple. Better data, better decisions.
▶ 3:40:23And um, one of the, um, and I say that not to be a skeptic, you know, I think that the demand for electricity is large and growing, but whether we're at a point high or a point low, we're just getting it right is what's important. And so this commission, uh, grappled with the same question on when we were connecting, overseeing the process for connecting new power plants to the grid with lots of people getting in line. They're trying to figure out where the cheapest and most effective place to connect was.
▶ 3:40:53But all those people in line jammed the process. And so one of the reforms we did was, all right, we're going to make you pay a deposit. And so I wrote to all the grid operators and said, hey, are you using objective, quantifiable criteria like a financial deposit before you count? And also, are you talking to your neighboring grid operators or even their neighbors about what they're seeing and making sure that we don't have the same request everywhere? Not because we don't want to serve every request, but because we need to plan more accurately.
▶ 3:41:20And so that that's what it was all about. And, uh, I've begun to see some results. Pjm recently revised its load forecast, based in part on using more objective, quantifiable criteria like deposits and and facilities agreements and the like. >> well, I thank you for that. And nerc's recent 2025 long term reliability assessment recognized that large loads inherently add volatility to load forecasts.
▶ 3:41:48There's a lack of historical data on gigawatt scale interconnection requests, and there are challenges with utility information sharing and risks of double counting projects across regions between the national labs and the energy information administration. Federal government has great expertise in energy system modeling, analysis and data collection. So, commissioner rosner, do you think there's more we can do?
▶ 3:42:15Uh, at the federal level to support states and regions in their efforts to improve their forecasting tools? >> absolutely. I think the national labs and the energy information administration have made huge contributions to understanding what the future energy system and the needs associated with it are. Um, I also would just say that this is not rocket science. Um, you know, it's like you go to buy a car. If you make a deposit, they're going to hold the car for you.
▶ 3:42:45Um, it's kind of the same idea here. I think we can figure this out. But I also do feel very strongly on your point about modeling that, you know, there's a lot of uncertainties here. There's a lot of new technologies coming into play and getting getting our arms around that is really important. >> thank you. And, commissioner, you were also supportive of ferc order 1920, which was approved by the commission with bipartisan support in 2024.
▶ 3:43:06Can you speak a bit about the importance of that order, and how long term transmission planning is foundational to an affordable and reliable electric system? I know you're quizzed about that a bit ago, but you were only given five seconds, so can you embellish that, please? >> well, here's five more.
▶ 3:43:26So, you know, getting the transmission system based on on demand, uh, future demand and where we think that future generation will be, it's critical. Uh, and we see frequently even today, even last year, um, power plants of all types trying to get connected to the system. They can't they get they get hit with these upgrade costs of hundreds of millions to billions of dollars because we don't have enough transmission to connect them. And that's true for natural gas and for batteries and for any other source.
▶ 3:43:56>> yeah. Well, I say it's important for us to really improve that long term planning, because this administration's position on demanding uncompetitive coal fired power plants that can continue operating at great expense to the american people, it's just not what's necessary. We need good sound planning. And with that, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes general from new york for five minutes. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman.
▶ 3:44:24I represent western new york in the southern tier region with access to some of the nation's most abundant natural gas resources. Yet families and businesses are paying electricity rates roughly 50% higher than the national average, while facing growing reliability risks. That disconnect isn't about a lack of supply, innovation, or federal authority.
▶ 3:44:45It's the product of state policies in new york that block infrastructure, restrict options, and take energy decisions out of the hands of consumers. And that's why I've championed legislation called the energy choice act, because states shouldn't be allowed to ban lawful energy sources or replace consumer choice with one size fits all mandates. Energy policy should expand options, affordability and reliability, not shut off energy choices by government decree.
▶ 3:45:14Uh, we see the consequences of losing that balance in new york's all electric mandate for new homes and buildings. And governor kathy hochul is pushing new residential and commercial construction to electrify, at the same time restricting firm generation and pipeline infrastructure. Electrification may be a policy goal, but common sense must still apply. Uh, growing electric demand has to be matched with generation, transmission and fuel.
▶ 3:45:41Security or reliability will suffer and costs will rise for consumers. Chairwoman swett, how does ferc assess reliability risks when states mandate electrification but restrict the infrastructure needed to support it? >> thank you for the question. Ferc is in a reactive posture. We can only take the markets as they come to us and as the federal power act designates, states are solely the ones who determine where generation is sited.
▶ 3:46:11Uh, what type of generation is built, whether or not they give the clean water act permits to pipelines who want to run through them. And ferc can only take those matters as they come to us. >> thank you. Uh, we don't have to speculate what happens when policy gets ahead of reliability. We've seen it in december 2022, winter storm elliot showed how essential fuel diversity in firm generation are during extreme weather emergencies. Uh, when systems failed in, the power went out.
▶ 3:46:41More than 60 people in my community lost their lives. Uh, it was a stark reminder that reliability is not an abstract concept. It's a matter of public safety. Uh, chairwoman, how is ferc working to maintain reliability and fuel diversity? When states like new york restrict firm generation and infrastructure, especially during extreme winter conditions? >> I'm very sorry about the people who lost their lives in your state. That's unacceptable.
▶ 3:47:09Um, from our perspective, we are regulating the reliability of the bulk electric system. So we do everything we can within our jurisdiction to monitor the grid and do whatever we can to reach out to the utilities if they're in crisis. And so within our jurisdiction, which unfortunately does not extend to the distribution system and the retail system in states, we do everything that we possibly can. >> thank you very much.
▶ 3:47:34If fuel diversity and firm generation are critical to winter reliability, pipeline infrastructure is not an optional item. Yet. Despite receiving federal approval from ferc, new york state is repeatedly weaponized its federally delegated clean water act, section 401, permitting authority to block the constitution pipeline.
▶ 3:47:54Now, just last week, the new york state department of environmental conservation again denied key permits and reaffirmed its opposition to the constitution pipeline, signaling that even projects that clear the federal review process can effectively be killed at the state level. And that is just not policy degree disagreement. It undermines the certainty that federal approvals are supposed to provide, especially for infrastructure that would deliver firm fuel into regions with sustained winter demand.
▶ 3:48:24Uh, commissioner. See, generally speaking, how does the pipeline bottleneck in the northeast impact the energy reliability and affordability in the region? >> um, congressman, I think it's really telling that you started with some of the stressors we've seen from recent winter storms, because we've increasingly had a gas and electric system that were built separately, but they are so interdependent. Upwards of 40% of the electricity sector is powered by natural gas. So that makes that incredibly important. We can't get molecules where they need to go without increased capacity.
▶ 3:48:52So in matters like the one you're talking about, that's an open filing in front of us. I know I'm committed to look very closely at the record and to make sure that we can do everything within our jurisdiction to move forward needed infrastructure when it meets the statutory mandate of promoting plentiful natural gas supplies in the public interest. >> thank you very much. Reliability is an ideological bad policy raises costs and increased risks.
▶ 3:49:16Energy policy should prioritize affordability and reliability, and not government mandates that undermine the systems that people depend on. And with that, Mr. chairman, I'm out of time and I will yield back. >> thank you very much. The gentleman yields back, and if we could, we'll just stand at ease for a couple of minutes till other members come back in from the vote. So thank you.
▶ 3:50:27Well, uh, I'll. Just throw. >> it out. >> no, wait. Let's start again.
▶ 3:55:41>> and. >> when he gets to go. Okay. So. Yeah. So he's awake? >> yeah. Rick larsen. You're. You're up. Yeah. >> nice language.
▶ 3:56:12>> yeah. Because. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. >> he came in. >> yep. >> okay. The subcommittee will come back to order, and the chair will recognize the gentleman from ohio's sixth district for five minutes for question. >> thank you. Chairman, federal law is clear. States cannot block critical natural gas projects. Period.
▶ 3:56:39Over the last decade, democrat governors have continuously violated the natural gas act and put our natural national security at risk while our communities bear the cost our constituents cannot afford rising energy costs held hostage by brain headed out-of-state politicians playing game with the energy grid.
▶ 3:57:02From your perspective, how has state actions impacted natural gas development and grid reliability in the united states? For me personally in ohio, six we're very rich in the utica, in the marcellus shale. I've spent the last six years in public service building this. I've actually been intricate in building three gas generated power plants, two in lordstown and one in wellsville. We have a cracker plant in monaca, pennsylvania. It's the biggest cracker plant outside of texas.
▶ 3:57:34The problem that we're having over there right now is governor hochul. She refuses to have the constitutional pipeline go in the cracker plant and feed that beautiful plant with the necessity of the natural gas that is needed. So now we are frantically trying to build a pipeline from ohio six in the monaca. So would one of you like to speak on this? >> I will, sir, thank you for the question.
▶ 3:57:59Um, it's mountain valley pipeline is a good example of the situation that you're raising here, which is sometimes it takes an act of congress to build a pipeline. And that's because the permits in our system of federalism, uh, enable the states to effectively veto a project. And ferc cannot do anything about that.
▶ 3:58:25>> so what type of things do you think ferc could, uh, give suggestions to congress to write a quality bill that perhaps could get bipartisan support? So if we could expand the natural gas pipelines inside the continental united states at time for all the above energy that are friendly friends on the opposite side of the aisle, think that could happen?
▶ 3:58:44Because when you see this happen, where I have a cracker plant that was $12.5 billion of construction, we have the proposal for a belmont cracker plant, which is another $14,000,000,000,000 billion of construction. And we could actually turn this into the energy hub for the whole world. Uh, the natural gas in ohio six is enough to supply the earth's needs for 4 or 500 years. So any suggestions? Us members over here that we could do some quality work and get bipartisan support on? >> absolutely.
▶ 3:59:10As an initial matter, ferc staff stands ready to provide technical support to you and any other members on how to craft legislation. Uh, but it's clear that the clear water act or clean water act probably needs to be revised to put some type of limit on the ability to effectively veto a project, a federal project.
▶ 3:59:32>> do you think that's something that lee zeldin could actually be involved with and help us navigate those waters, and the pitfalls and the little landmines that could happen as far as, uh, addressing that. >> um, I do not want to speak for lee zeldin, but I can answer any questions on behalf of ferc and myself. >> for the office will definitely reach out. And with that, I yield my time back to the chair. >> well, thank you very much. The gentleman yields back, and the chair now, recognize the at large member from north dakota, the gentlelady, for five minutes. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 4:00:01I appreciate you calling this committee today. And thank you all for being here. Um, a lot of things I want to go over. First of all, I want to set the record straight for a minute. There's a lot of blame that's been made in this committee on republican policies driving up energy costs. The other boogeyman for increased energy costs is the big tech companies. This chart shows clearly what's going on here.
▶ 4:00:28You can't really tell the difference between the grades, but the state in this chart that has the lowest energy costs is my state of north dakota. And that is because we have, in a very principled way for decades, followed simple fundamentals that you provide low costs and reliability. Those are your drivers cost and need drive the investments in the system. And when you do that, over time, you get a result like this.
▶ 4:00:58What happens when you don't do that? You get the results in the blue states. Those states have very aggressive goals. You know this these are also the states that have risk of running out of power. And where you have risks of not having enough gas in your pipelines to meet demand. When the weather gets cold, like in the winter. Winter storm fern. So this is just like the facts of the system. It's a and I just wanted to point that out. You all know this.
▶ 4:01:26I'm saying this more to, um, colleagues on the on the other side of the aisle who continually blame us for the rising costs. Secondly, I want to just highlight I couldn't bring up. You can take that down now. There'll be one more map I want to highlight. You are also very familiar with these maps. These are the maps of the reliability assessment. These are this map up here is what drove me to run for congress after 12 years as a state utility regulator.
▶ 4:01:53Seeing the policies that were taking occurring all over our country. And the really, uh, step by step dismantling of our power grid and our systems, I decided I need to take my expertise, come here and try to fight for just common sense energy policy. That's it. It shouldn't be partizan. Just this is the fundamental need in our country. Provides a baseline for everything we do.
▶ 4:02:19And so I urge you all to focus on this because this has gotten worse. We're getting worse. We have more parts of the country at high risk and elevated risk of not having enough power to meet demand, and that's today. Or in the very near future. That is, before we even talk about meeting the ever growing appetite of ai, which is also a very serious national security issue.
▶ 4:02:47So whatever you need, help, whatever tools you need to focus on this, consider me as an ally. I want to help you in any way that I possibly can. Uh, okay. So I have a few questions and I'll submit more, uh, on online. But, um, commissioners say, see, you said that the electric electricity markets are not designed for today's challenge. I agree with you. We have we have to change things.
▶ 4:03:12So, um, chair swett, could you just briefly outline some of the things that you think congress can do to allow you all to do your work faster? >> thank you for the question. There are several things, several items raised today that congress could help with.
▶ 4:03:34First of all, as we just discussed when it comes to permitting federal projects, um, either putting a timeline on state analysis or inability to effectively veto projects when it comes to things within their jurisdiction, but fully respecting the states rights, which I do personally, that would be very helpful. Um, across ferc's jurisdiction, limiting the amount of litigation that can happen.
▶ 4:04:02Perhaps if there were a clock on when or how you could appeal a decision that would certainly give more certainty to, um, market participants, because as someone who personally knows, some of these cases can be appealed for decades. And, uh, that would be extremely helpful. >> and I'll invite you guys to send all of us, all all five of you send ideas. Uh, I'll ask a question of that nature.
▶ 4:04:25Um, chair swett, you mentioned one of the things that I'm really excited about that you're going through, like all of the ferc rules and regs, looking at where you've kind of exceeded your authority, your jurisdiction, and also things that just don't make sense. Can you just briefly what's the timeline on that? And can you provide a report to us when you've completed that work? >> I am happy to provide any information that you and your staff would like.
▶ 4:04:52Um, the timeline is the entirety of my tenure. As long as I have the honor of having this job, I'm going to be looking at a critical eye. When I entered the building, there was a huge backlog of very difficult items that had not been acted on by the commission for a multitude of reasons. There was not a quorum, and we cannot act unless we have a majority vote or some items don't have statutory deadlines.
▶ 4:05:15Some were simply too hard to reach consensus on, and I prioritize right away trying to clear that backlog. That's one way, and I will continue to do so as we work through things. >> okay, my time has expired. I have a few other questions I'll submit online and look forward to ongoing, um, collaboration with all of you and some of our big challenges here. >> thank you. The gentlelady's time has expired and yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from ohio's first district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 4:05:44Chairman, and thank you all for being here. Uh, this is obviously a hugely important topic for the american people, businesses are farmers, uh, in large part because of the utility bill. So I just want to I want to start there and I want to pick up where my colleague, miss ocasio-cortez, uh, had left off, which was, uh, taking on this question of, uh, utility costs versus utility profits.
▶ 4:06:11And most americans wouldn't know how much power you all have in terms of adjusting down, uh, the profit margin in order to, uh, adjust down somebody's utility bills. And so as people are looking for someone to help, someone to save them, uh, from the high cost, uh, of these electric bills, uh, look no further. Right.
▶ 4:06:38And and miss what you made, I think, a really important comment about the heated debate that you all are having around this question. Uh, and I wanted to ask you as follow up, uh, what what is that debate look like? Uh, and how quickly can the plane get landed so that we can provide real relief, uh, for ratepayers? I mean, this seems like something you're passionate about. I'm just.
▶ 4:07:06I'm wondering if I could get you to talk a little bit about this process in a way where people back home will say, oh, my gosh, maybe somebody's going to help. >> thank you for the question. And to be clear, the heated debate we're having is a contest to see who can save ratepayers more money among my colleagues. So every time we have a docket come before us, every single one of them has raised well, could we lower this or can we lower that? And this?
▶ 4:07:36How is this going to pass through to the consumer? So, um, they all raised very intelligent questions because we have such. >> but the question about the profits, because you do have the power to, to adjust the profits for each company. Uh, to say that to, uh, folks, we're going to adjust this down a little bit so that we can increase or decrease, uh, what folks are being charged. How quickly can that happen?
▶ 4:08:03>> well, uh, we every single rate that comes before us, we do look at what rate of return the utility has and that can help americans. But like I said, that's only one third of the bills that people get for utility. >> I think they would be very, very excited for that one third of the bill to go down. Uh, because you are seeing these companies, uh, rack up record profits while folks are really struggling. And it's not just families, it's my small businesses. It's my farmers. Uh, I've got 2.5 minutes.
▶ 4:08:32I just want to ask about a's. I just want to encourage you to keep pushing, um, get these rates down. Uh, I have a bill protecting families from ai data center energy costs. And so this gets at, uh, what so many of my communities are facing. I've got a community, uh, in our region, wilmington. They're they're looking at a data center. The data center is coming in. They're they're, you know, they're asking for all this tax money, and utility bills are likely to go up like they have everywhere else.
▶ 4:09:01What can you tell them that you all are doing to ensure that this company, it's an amazon company, pays the full amount of their energy costs? >> every agreement that we've approved at ferc since my tenure, at least, has provided for the data center to cover the full cost of the upgrades that are necessary for them.
▶ 4:09:24Anecdotally, I meet with data centers also, and many of them across the country are actually willing to subsidize local ratepayer utility bills by providing even more to the system. >> that is where congress has to require it, because I do agree that they're they have the cash to do it. We have to, I think, come together in a bipartisan way to say you have to pay for the entirety of the costs, otherwise it's going to end up back on the ratepayers in this bill. Uh, that hopefully gets marked up and passed. I think it's very bipartisan.
▶ 4:09:52Is the the push to get families, farmers, small businesses included in these conversations. Can you talk a little bit about how you do that now? >> well, that is not in ferc's jurisdiction to have community engagement for a potential deal that may be at the retail level.
▶ 4:10:10But we from what I've talked to the data centers about, most of them are starting to show that they understand it's very important to have the community behind them, and I'm very encouraged that that will continue to be part of their approach. >> just in my last couple of minutes, seconds here, um, that's not been our experience. I understand that has happened in other places in ohio, or at least in wilmington.
▶ 4:10:33Our experience is they've come in, they're signing ndas with people, politicians, elected officials, and, uh, they're bypassing community and getting tax cuts to come in, uh, and set up these data centers, which will cost people a lot of money, uh, for a few jobs. And ultimately, I think we have to get to a place where they pay everything. No cost data centers. Thank you, I yield back. >> thank you very much. John yields back.
▶ 4:11:03And the chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas 12th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, very much. And I want to thank all the commissioners for being here today. It's been a very interesting and educating hearing. Um, I'll start with, uh, chairwoman swett, since you are an honorary texan surrounded by texans, uh, not only at home but on your staff as well. Um, you've been on this. You've been a staffer yourself at ferc before and been in private practice at a very distinguished firm.
▶ 4:11:32Uh, certainly an expert. So safe to say that you are an expert on both the industry and the regulating the agency you run. What are the biggest opportunities you see to improve ferc as we move forward? >> thank you for that question. I am very proud of the agency that we are representing. It is my third time, uh, it's come a long way and we're moving faster.
▶ 4:12:00>> at first I thought you said it's your third child, but that could be. >> I've only. >> got two I know. Well, so it technically is your third child. I do. >> feel actually a maternal instinct toward the agency. So it. It could be my third child, in a way, but it predates me. Um, that said, just we've made a lot of strides at ferc to improve everything that we're doing. And I personally have tried to improve ferc's morale. Um, just to tell everyone there that they're appreciated.
▶ 4:12:28And the administration is really appreciative of the mission that we do for the american people, having support from the outside would also improve the agency's morale. But I think we're at a good place and we're we're changing every day.
▶ 4:12:40Um, that said, having more certainty on the gray areas of our jurisdiction from congress, for example, in permitting, which we keep coming back to, um, that would really help us realize our missions more efficiently. >> all right. Thank you.
▶ 4:12:59And do you anticipate achieving the timeline for ferc rulemaking on data center co-location and fast track interconnect for data centers to be completed by the april 30th, 2026 deadline, as requested by secretary? Right. >> that is a historic problem that takes all of the minds to solve. I'm very grateful for the secretary for making his priorities public and giving us the opportunity to open a docket and collect that information.
▶ 4:13:27That said, we've gotten over 300 sets of very substantive comments, and we have to comply with the administrative procedure act, which means ferc staff must analyze and respond to every single comment that we have. Otherwise we will be overturned on appeal. So we are moving as efficiently as we can to ensure that we come up with a thoughtful and durable answer for our country. >> thank you. Uh, commissioner roger, I had a hard hitting question for you. Since you praised texas and what we're doing there.
▶ 4:13:57Um, I kind of eased up a bit. Um, but no. During your time as chair, ferc recently approved what seems to be a record amount of natural gas projects. What recommendations do you have or best practices that we in congress can help with to make such speed and success more permanent? >> well, thank you for the for the question. And, uh, and the texas grid is is really quite impressive. Um, you know, I'll say a couple of things.
▶ 4:14:22First of all, I think having a bipartisan consensus among commissioners helps us do our work more rapidly. Uh, and it also helps ensure that, you know, as we get the benefit from the five sets of perspectives and experiences in these orders, makes them more legally durable. Uh, and so, you know, I think one thing is, you know, just go, colleagues, let's keep keep doing what we've been doing.
▶ 4:14:46Um, you know, I think we've talked a lot with many members of the committee about, um, opportunities for, uh, more certainty on the things that touch, uh, our jurisdiction or things that are related to other agencies or other entities have roles in, uh, and so I think what I would say succinctly is, you know, whatever sort of all the above permit reform, uh, that congress thinks is appropriate, I would be really excited to
▶ 4:15:16Implement as a commissioner. Um, but should that not happen, uh, also be very excited, as a commissioner to work within the statutes who've entrusted us to find efficiencies wherever we can. >> thank you. Thank you. Um, and I think we all agree, everybody on the committee, everyone of y'all certainly want the grid to be reliable. We all want to save ratepayers money. Uh, commissioner. See, um, seeing what happened last week with winter storm fern, um, as some of my colleagues, uh, pointed out, one or more wind.
▶ 4:15:47Well, the wind was blowing in texas and the sun was shining. And so we were completely, not completely we were very dependent on natural gas. So I think over at one point, 70% of our grid was by natural gas. And seeing that the new england grid was generating 25 to 30% of its power from oil. Um, what do you think should be done to expand natural gas pipelines in new england? >> if I could just interrupt for a second. The gentleman's time has expired. If you could answer that.
▶ 4:16:14I give everybody about 15 seconds to over, or if you'd like to respond in writing, would be the easiest and best for you. >> can certainly respond more in writing, but I think we need more infrastructure. I think that's the message that's come out of the hearing today. >> thank you. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. The gentleman's time has expired, and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from california's 15th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. >> Mr. chair. >> thank you, commissioners, for being here today. Two years ago, president trump pledged to cut electricity bills by 50%.
▶ 4:16:46Under his watch. The opposite has happened. Prices rose 13% last year, just recently ahead of winter storms. Last week, natural gas prices jumped 25%. For the average american family, this translates to an extra $1,000 a year. Just to keep the heat on, we must move past rhetoric and toward real solutions that lower costs for the people we represent. Commissioner chang, I want to thank you for your response to the letter that I sent to each of you regarding data centers.
▶ 4:17:14You noted that while large loads are an opportunity to modernize our grid, we must protect customers from higher prices as part of that equation. With that in mind, what specific cost allocation frameworks do you think will effectively protect consumers from rising costs associated with these new large loads like data centers? >> thank you for your question, congressman. Um, yes.
▶ 4:17:37The captive customers, um, have always been the ones that pay for system upgrades. And as we enter into this new phase where large customers are coming in, such as data centers, that we've talked about it all day today, is that we have an opportunity to upgrade the system for everyone, not just for the data centers, but for everyone. And I think we need to take that opportunity very seriously.
▶ 4:18:05And we also have an opportunity to, to, to to do that, to increase the capability of our grid while keeping the rates flat for everyone. But we also run the risk at this moment where if additional upgrades are actually only to benefit certain large customers but not benefit local customers, those costs should be should not be shifted to existing captive customers.
▶ 4:18:32So I think as we evaluate approaches to cost, allocate system upgrades or on principle, same thing for generation upgrades. You know, we need to think about how to allocate those costs fairly. >> thank you for that. Commissioner rosner, I was glad to see your testimony highlight the importance of order number 1920, a rule which was bipartisan and unanimous.
▶ 4:18:58California's grid operator, cal iso, submitted its first compliance filing under this order in december, and I'll be watching that outcome closely. Without getting into the specifics of any active filing, can you describe the importance of ensuring that our filings strictly comply with the reliability and affordability mandates of orders 1920 and 1920? >> a thank you for the question, congressman.
▶ 4:19:22And, um, what I'd say is this is, uh, I really look forward to to working on, uh, compliance with order number 1920 with my colleagues on the commission. Um, although as an individual commissioner, I do not set the the timeline for moving that forward. But what I can say is this about 1920 is that, um, this is the kind of rulemaking that brings states in at the ground floor, um, to take a 20 year forward look, it doesn't require them to select anything.
▶ 4:19:50Take a 20 year forward look, give input to your transmission utility about what kind of projects you see, how the scenarios should run. Um, and then agree among the region on how to how to share the costs. And, um, you know, we've had a lot of struggles with this, uh, over the past decade or two at ferc.
▶ 4:20:11Um, I believe that order number 1920, uh, corrects, uh, a lot of the gaps, uh, and will help us get a set of, of transmission that's going to enable us to connect an all of the above energy system to the grid, meet things like new demands, whether it's a data center or electric vehicles or whatever states and regular people want to pursue that, we have that available to them at an affordable way. Thank you. >> thank you for that.
▶ 4:20:38Your testimony also highlights the 21st century reliability solutions include. Demand response I am actively working on a legislative proposal to expand real time energy data access, in part to improve such programs. How critical is expanded access to real time data for this? For the success of demand response programs? And how would this help lower costs for families? >> um, I would agree with you that it is critical.
▶ 4:21:03Uh, and so having access to the data is is needed, uh, in many parts of the country. Um, and the way it works is this the, the cheapest megawatt is the one you don't use or the one that you're willing to not use. Uh, and so what I like about demand response is, um, there's a lot of flexibility in setting up programs that work for regular consumers or small businesses or even large businesses so that they can respond to prices and they can be in control of, of their consumption.
▶ 4:21:31Uh, it's just smart and, you know, and in many and it's voluntary, uh, and I think it's another tool at lowering high costs. >> thank you for that. >> thank you very much. The gentleman yields back and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania's 13th district for five minutes for questions. >> thank you. Chairman and ranking member castor, for holding this important hearing.
▶ 4:21:56And to our witnesses for being here for this long day, as we have discussed within this committee, and as you are no doubt aware in your roles, ensuring that every american has affordable and reliable energy has become increasingly complicated in recent years between the premature retirement of dispatchable baseload power and the increased demand on the grid that ai centers and advanced manufacturing presents, we're seeing challenges to the reliability across this country.
▶ 4:22:27When you consider all these factors and add in extreme weather like we're experiencing over the past week, this puts even more pressure on the grid. It has become clear to me why the head of the newark has labeled the current reliability crisis as a five alarm fire.
▶ 4:22:43In your role as a regulatory body charged with ensuring reliability in our bulk power system, I want to discuss what you see as the path forward, so that we can recognize the opportunity of both ai and advanced manufacturing, while still keeping energy affordable in the development of ai.
▶ 4:23:05And as us companies work to capture leadership in that role, we have seen many proposed projects which would be incredibly energy intensive. However, many of these projects are in their very early stages and some will likely never come to fruition. Commissioner lusert what role can ferc play in establishing guidelines for when and how energy demand from a new project is considered as part of a load forecast?
▶ 4:23:37>> I think that's a that's $1 billion question. I think we had a good start with our 1920, and I think that's going to require a 20 year look at transmission planning and cost allocation. Um, one of the things we can do better of, of partnering with our states to encourage generation. I think the generation problem here is a key cog in this wheel. And I think that's a it's a responsibility of the states. And I think one of the things that congress can do is properly incentivize that energy mix that we've talked so much about here today.
▶ 4:24:05So natural gas has carried the load through this winter storm. I think natural gas is, is is plentiful. Uh, in, in we are geologically blessed across our country. I think that we need more capacity to drive those natural gas pipelines forward, to put steel in the ground, uh, to power our generators, to power industry, and to come forward with a real modernization of our grid. I think a diverse grid is important.
▶ 4:24:32A proper energy mix is important, but baseload power is carrying the day. Now more than ever here in our country. We need to properly incentivize it. Uh, we need to reduce those hurdles that we've put in front of it. We can't play these games that we have in the past as it relates to the blocking and tackling of what we do with energy. >> so you call it $1 billion question, and I agree. But what are the risks and downsides when a load forecast accounts for demand that is unlikely to ever actually materialize, or when the demand arises that a forecast fails to account for?
▶ 4:25:04>> absolutely. I think, as our colleagues have stated here today, when that load forecast is inaccurate, uh, two things are going to happen on the downside. Um, you know, if it's too high, the consumers are going to pay the bill. And you and you see that, uh, I think we need better forecasting. We need better data. I think we have a better consensus on what those forecasts are going to be, so we can properly plan without the forecast being accurate. Uh, we're always going to hit our miss, our mark.
▶ 4:25:28>> we have seen many large load customers like the new data centers, enter into proactive contracts with either existing or new generation sources to meet those energy demands. This provides predictability both for the grid and for the generator, especially as it relates to agreements between large loads and existing manufacturers. These deals can serve as a signal for generation sources to plan for that long term and make needed upgrades and investments.
▶ 4:25:56Chairman swett, how can we ensure that existing generators are not disadvantaged in entering into long term deals with large load, as compared to load that partners with new generation? >> thank you for the question. As congress has instructed us, we have to do everything in a nondiscriminatory manner. So that includes looking at existing generation and new generation in the same way.
▶ 4:26:20So if those agreements come before us, then we will consider the merits of all of them and ensure that we have a just and reasonable result. >> I have one additional question. I respect your time for being here today. I will submit that as a question for review. Again, I thank you for your intellect. I thank you for for your thoughtfulness, and I thank you for your leadership in what we and I come from an energy rich section of pennsylvania with great resources of marcellus shale.
▶ 4:26:49I thank you for recognizing that. And with that, Mr. chairman, I yield. >> the gentleman yields back. And seeing no further members wishing to ask questions first, the subcommittee first would like to thank you all, uh, especially through, uh, two votes series today. We appreciate your patience. Really do. So thank you very much for being with us.
▶ 4:27:09Members have may have additional written questions for you, and I'll remind members that they have ten business days to submit additional questions, for the record, as that all witnesses do their best to submit responses within ten business days. Upon receipt of the question, I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the documents included on the staff hearing documents list, without objection, so ordered and without objection. The subcommittee is adjourned. >> thank you.