▶ 0:04:38Today, we're pleased to welcome brian harrison, acting inspector general of the department of housing and urban development, and mitch beam, deputy inspector general of the department of transportation. Thank you for appearing before us today, both of you, and for your service as you lead these two critical offices. One of our fundamental roles as members of the appropriations committee is to make sure that departments and agencies we support perform their mission for the benefit of the american public.
▶ 0:05:07We rely on your offices to assist us in that effort. When you find instances of waste, fraud and abuse at your agencies, it helps us better refine our appropriations. When you find programs operating successfully, it always gives us confidence in continuing our funding for such activities. While we have not yet received the president's fiscal 27 budget, I want to highlight the funding we gave your offices in 26.
▶ 0:05:37We provided 113 million to the dot oig, and 144.5 million for the hud oig. To ensure you can meet your mission, we look forward to learning about your fiscal 27 needs in the coming weeks. This hearing comes on the heels of congress appropriating record funding for many dot accounts and activities, and hud's housing programs. As such, the work of the ig remains very critical.
▶ 0:06:06We can look at your investigations to inform the current work of the departments. For example, faa's air traffic control modernization effort received 4 billion in the fiscal 26 bill. That's $1 billion in iija funding, and in 12.5 billion from the one big, beautiful bill. We've all invested interest in the success of this investment.
▶ 0:06:28We cannot repeat the past mistakes and failures of the next gen, where scheduled delays and cost overruns were routine benefits not fully realized. As another example, the cost of maintaining housing assistance for vulnerable citizens continues to increase, requiring more than 66 billion in fiscal 26, an increase of nearly 6%, or 3.7 billion over 25.
▶ 0:06:55We have to modernize hud's oversight tools to root out fraud and ensure that each dollar goes as far as possible to house americans who need support. I look forward to hearing more about your audits and investigations, and getting your insights on where congressional attention might be directed. With that in mind, again, we welcome you to the panel here today. And I'd like to recognize my dear, dear friend, Mr.
▶ 0:07:23Clyburn, the ranking member of this subcommittee, for any opening comments he'd like to make. Jim, floor is yours. >> well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Thank you so much for, uh, your great leadership of this subcommittee. It is great to be back in this room. Uh, as we begin our hearing season for the fiscal year 2027 cycle. I am pleased to join you in welcoming our witnesses, Mr. beam and Mr. harrison, thank you for joining us today.
▶ 0:07:53I'll keep my opening statement relatively brief so we can proceed with questions. But I do want to underscore a few concerns. This oversight hearing is an important opportunity for us to examine the key management challenges facing the department of transportation and the department of housing and urban development. There are many of these issues are not new.
▶ 0:08:17I believe that recent actions by the trump administration are cause for heightened concern from appropriations to labor. We have seen this administration seem to show a blatant disregard for following established law.
▶ 0:08:34Compounding this problem is the federal housing hiring freeze they have imposed, I believe arbitrary hiring restrictions could permanently threaten core government functions, including those within your own organizations. If left in place. Because ceo has noted that such across the board hiring freezes are counterproductive.
▶ 0:09:02It's impossible to effectively run complex departments without a strong workforce. As many of you know. Uh, this is my first elective office. Uh, I've been here for north of, uh, 30 years, but for 30 years, I ran state and local governments.
▶ 0:09:25And so I am deeply concerned about the lack of transparency within the departments and conflicting reports. We continue to see from dot, hud, and partners on the ground.
▶ 0:09:42Oversight is a key function of congress, but it is especially integral, integral to the work of the appropriations committee, ensuring we have independent inspectors general is critical for this subcommittee to conduct effective oversight and make informed funding decisions that ensure our limited federal
▶ 0:10:15Federal dollars are wisely spent. While I appreciate your interim leadership, I will note my concern that the white house has yet to submit nominees for senate confirmed inspectors general at either department, more than a year after the firing of the former senate, confirmed ig's.
▶ 0:10:39This is not an effective way of running government, and particularly a nonpartisan watchdog agency which deserves a full public vetting, transparency and permanency of its leadership.
▶ 0:11:02Once again, I thank both of you for being here today, and I look forward to learning more about how hud and dot intend to meet their management challenges and how we can work together to improve their mandates and make their programs more accessible and affordable for all our citizens. Thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you, Mr. clyburn. This morning, we'll begin with dot's deputy inspector general, mitch beam. Mr.
▶ 0:11:30Beam, your full written testimony is included in today's record. And now I'm pleased to recognize you for five minutes. >> chairman womack, ranking member clyburn and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify today regarding our oversight of the department of transportation's programs and activities. I'm pleased to be here alongside my counterpart, brian harrison, the acting inspector general for the department of housing and urban development.
▶ 0:11:58I greatly appreciate this subcommittee's continued support for our work and mission by providing independent, objective audits and investigations on behalf of the american public. Our office is essential to ensuring dot delivers a safe, efficient and modern transportation system using only a small fraction of dot's resources. Our work has recovered significant amounts of improper payments while identifying cost savings and program improvements.
▶ 0:12:25In fiscal year 2025, we achieved a return on investment of $25 for every dollar appropriated to us, unique to many oyj's, we also focus a significant portion of our work on safety. Today, my testimony covers three key oversight areas enhancing safety, curbing fraud, waste and abuse, and advancing modernization. First, dot should continue to prioritize safety improvements.
▶ 0:12:53Our recent work on aviation safety shows faa can strengthen its oversight of air carrier maintenance while addressing inspector staffing shortages. For example, we've reported that faa inspectors have not sufficiently addressed systemic safety hazards at multiple air carriers. Another urgent challenge is hiring and training enough air traffic controllers to manage our airspace. Many critical facilities have been below their staffing targets by at least 15%.
▶ 0:13:21In addition, dot is making progress reducing fatalities on our nation's highways. But the department can still improve data collection and better measure the effectiveness of roadway safety initiatives for our nation's railways. Fra can more effectively target its limited inspection resources while ensuring rail workers have the rest and track protection they need. Second, dot's oversight must also focus on curbing fraud, waste and abuse.
▶ 0:13:51This includes addressing risks related to the department's multibillion dollar infrastructure investments, as well as programs whose funding rapidly increased, such as port infrastructure development program. Dot will also face challenges meeting new streamlined requirements for contract and grant processes. As our work in this area has shown, oversight weaknesses exposed dot to risks like improper payments, question costs and other noncompliance.
▶ 0:14:20It is also critical to hold those who abuse the system accountable. Our investigations continue to uncover crimes ranging from bribery to buy america violations. This highlights the importance of broad outreach to better detect and prevent fraud. Third, dot is working to advance large scale efforts to modernize our national airspace system. Last year, the secretary announced the department's 30 plus billion dollar initiative to build a brand new air traffic control system.
▶ 0:14:49Our work on the predecessor initiative, nextgen, spanned over two decades across 50 audit reports. Faa's long standing challenges with cost growth, schedule delays and design uncertainties present many lessons learned. Yet faa has not released a new comprehensive plan that anticipates and addresses risks. Safely integrating technologies into our nation's airspace is another challenge.
▶ 0:15:14Faa is working with government and industry stakeholders to determine how much to regulate a rapidly growing commercial space industry. Faa has also taken steps to approve more complex drone activity, including operations beyond visual line of sight. But as we have reported, the agency can enhance program targets and data to further advance its goals. Finally, dot must protect the it systems that are critical to transportation safety and reliability.
▶ 0:15:44However, our reports show that the department continues to face significant exploitable vulnerabilities and has yet to address a substantial backlog of security weaknesses. In closing, we remain committed to improving dot's effectiveness and efficiency and will keep the subcommittee informed of our work. This concludes my prepared statement. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. >> thank you. Now, I'd like to recognize hud's acting inspector inspector general, Mr. brian harrison. Mr.
▶ 0:16:16Harrison, your full written statement is included in today's record, and it's now my honor to give you five minutes. The floor is yours. >> chairman womack, ranking member clyburn and members of the subcommittee. I'm honored to be here with you today.
▶ 0:16:31Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to my statutory obligation to keep you fully and currently informed about the problems and deficiencies relating to the administration of the us housing and urban development's programs and operations, and, importantly, the necessity for and progress of corrective action.
▶ 0:16:48The men and women of the office of inspector general are hard at work delivering high quality investigations, audits and evaluations focused on preventing and detecting fraud and abuse and promoting the economy, efficiency and effectiveness across hud's programs and operations. We also continue to faithfully and expertly discharge our duties of resolving and appropriately referring allegations of whistleblower retaliation.
▶ 0:17:15The president has declared a war on fraud, and secretary turner has prioritized the protection of taxpayer funds at hud. We, the seasoned oversight professionals at hud, oig, welcome this leadership emphasis to our everyday mission that we are privileged to perform in service to the american taxpayers. This added emphasis serves as a force multiplier in our ongoing efforts to defeat fraud in hud's programs and operations.
▶ 0:17:44I thank the subcommittee for its long standing support of the oig through our annual and other appropriations, and I welcome your continued support in our efforts to meet our important statutory calling. As we shared publicly earlier this year, our efforts have produced results in fiscal year 2025, our audits and evaluations produced more than $227 million in questioned costs, $43 million in recommended funds, put to a better use, $29
▶ 0:18:14Million in audit collections, and nearly $80 million in restitution and judgments stemming from investigations. Additionally, individuals who chose to fraudulently attack hud's programs and operations found themselves held accountable. In fiscal year 2025. Our investigations resulted in 90 individuals charged for mortgage fraud schemes, public corruption and other crimes, and 85 convictions, pleas and pretrial diversions.
▶ 0:18:44The oig did not stop with these results, addressing the need for and progress of corrective action, the oig secured 153 suspension and debarment and closed 349 recommendations, including four that we deemed a priority for hud.
▶ 0:19:03We continue to make available on our website our recommendations dashboard, transparently offering you, other members of congress, hud, leadership and the public the ability to monitor our progress in assisting hud with needed change. I am deeply proud of the oig team that produced this work, while simultaneously joining in the whole of government effort to reexamine our own internal business operations, staffing and processes.
▶ 0:19:33Though we saw a reduction in staff this last year, I am proud to say that the quality and quantity of our work remains consistently high. This is a testament to the very dedicated professionals on our team who understand that economy, efficiency and effectiveness equally applies to the oig programs and operations.
▶ 0:19:53With continued efforts to reshape and realign our workforce and smartly deploy technology, I am confident we will emerge as a stronger and even more seasoned team, prepared and determined to do our part to defeat fraud at hud. Finally, I would like to take a moment to recognize in my testimony, deputy inspector general audra dortch, who later this month will conclude 32 years of service to our nation.
▶ 0:20:20She is not the type to seek spotlight and is not here today. But I know she is watching and she deserves our gratitude as she enters a well-deserved retirement. This concludes my opening remarks and I welcome your questions. >> thank you. We're going to proceed into the questions, and we're going to adhere to the five minute rule, alternating sides and recognizing members in order of seniority as they were seated at the beginning of the hearing.
▶ 0:20:47We're going to try to move quickly so everyone can get their questions in. And my admonition to all of my colleagues up here on the dais is to be mindful, not to filibuster as much as you can prevent it, so that we can get more questions answered. And and we'll have a very successful hearing. So I'm going to recognize myself on the first round of questions. Mr. beam. Mr.
▶ 0:21:10Harrison, while this hearing will mainly focus on the critical oversight you provide, it is my hope that you're getting all of the help that you need, and I want to make sure that, um, from the administration that is, and the agencies you oversee, as you know, these authorities are provided to you by law, such as the ig act of 1978. So to that end, I have a few important housekeeping questions. One, do you have any issues getting in?
▶ 0:21:41And I want an honest answer here. Okay. Do you have any issues getting prompt, timely access to staff, personnel or documents when conducting investigations from the agency, which you oversee, Mr. beam? >> no, sir. >> Mr. harrison. >> no, sir. >> you have your own it systems with a firewall between your files and the agency that you oversee. >> yes, sir. >> we do also. >> and it works. >> yes it does. >> okay.
▶ 0:22:10Are you ever concerned that you cannot be transparent with congress or the public as you would like to be? >> no, sir. >> no. Okay, that's a good start. As I highlighted in my opening statement, the faa received $17.5 billion this year for atc sustainment and modernization.
▶ 0:22:34The federal aviation administration has never received more than $4.2 billion in a given year for these purposes in the past. That's a lot of money. This amount of funding provides substantial opportunity for the faa to modernize their infrastructure and systems, but it also increases the likelihood of fiscal waste.
▶ 0:22:56So I look back on the failures of nextgen, an effort that received more than 15 billion over the past 20 years to meet stated goals, compounded with runaway costs and never ending timelines. In fact, funding provided for fiscal 26 will close out several next gen activities that began decades ago.
▶ 0:23:17The ig completed 50 audit reports scrutinizing nextgen as you evaluate the current processes faa is using to measure success and mitigate risk. In your opinion, is the faa better positioned for success during this new modernization effort? >> I would certainly hope so. As you stated, it. >> is never a method, never a method. I learned that in the army a long time ago. >> so like you said, to be. >> certain. >> um, we can't be certain.
▶ 0:23:48Only the faa can be certain. But certainly the like you said, mentioned 50 reports with many others in the pipeline and many others planned, um, and the 200 plus recommendations we've provided have certainly given the faa some lessons learned that they can follow, such as ensuring that they develop effective long term plans, that they oversee the major acquisitions effectively, that they continue to work with industry, that they, uh, focus on increased sustainment and
▶ 0:24:19Maintaining steady operating costs and obviously managing complex system interdependencies. Uh, interestingly, obviously, you're all aware that they've brought on an integrator company, peraton, which obviously we have planned audits in the future to take a look at how effective that's been.
▶ 0:24:39Uh, our hope is that that will actually provide that type of, uh, oversight and look, that they need as they continue along this b nex excuse my pronunciation, uh, over the, over the years. And obviously we'll be keeping on top of them. >> what kind of risks do we face with the prime contractor, uh, method of carrying out this work? >> well.
▶ 0:25:06>> obviously, I think it's a similar risk that the faa has, uh, has, has dealt with in the past, you know, where they have entered into very large contracts, um, with, with soul that ultimately are continued on a sole source basis. And at a certain point, you get so far along with one entity, and you don't have a chance to take a step back and look at what's going on and whether something needs to be modified or changed.
▶ 0:25:33The hope is having this overseeing entity, because obviously there's going to be many, many subcontracts to the to the companies that are ultimately implementing all the variety of systems to make this, uh, interdependent system work. Hopefully that will provide a benefit. >> I sure hope that in the course of carrying out your work, that your eyes are wide open and, uh, that we're looking for opportunities to make it successful, but at the same time prevent, uh, the potential for misuse and abuse.
▶ 0:26:05Um, I'll come back with some hud questions in another round. Mr. clyburn, I recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I'm particularly concerned, uh, Mr. chairman, about the, uh, the so-called deferred resignation program. Now, it is my understanding that, um, the department of transportation, has lost over 4000 employees.
▶ 0:26:31Now, I mentioned earlier, uh, I've spent about half of my professional life here in the congress. Another half I've spent running something, running state and local agencies. And what I do know that the most efficient form of government is one person rule. It's the least effective form of government.
▶ 0:26:59And it seems to me that what we need to do is balance those two entities as we try to go out, uh, and serve the american people. Has there anything been done by your office to examine the impact, both efficient and effective impact of losing 4000 employees? >> so currently.
▶ 0:27:26>> during our ongoing audits, obviously, each individual audit, as we look at each individual program, looking at the workforce, is a portion of that audit, a portion of that oversight? We have planned work to look more. I think what you're talking about more in a global perspective of how the impact of the, you know, the loss of so many employees over such a short period of time has had and the expertise that goes along with that.
▶ 0:27:49Um, obviously, when you lose that many people, you don't lose that many people in equal amounts, in equal spaces. You know, the way that you would ultimately like for it to occur. So, uh, we anticipate kicking off like, again, a more global audit looking at the department as a whole.
▶ 0:28:07But, uh, but rest assured, when we look at each individual audit and each individual group and obviously, like, for example, we know that fta and highways were far more affected than other operating administrations. So as our audits in those areas move on, you know, clearly looking at the impact of the loss of, uh, of staff will be a significant portion of our audit scope. >> so am I to understand you being hopeful about that? >> I guess I shouldn't be using.
▶ 0:28:39>> or we get in any kind of results that we can, uh, ascertain whether or not the service that this congress is attempting to deliver to the american people is being effectively delivered. Now, if you're looking at it, that's good.
▶ 0:29:01Uh, but what are we doing to determine whether or not this has had a positive impact or a negative impact on delivering the needs that the american people have now, as it relates to hud, I'm hearing from people all over how expensive housing has become.
▶ 0:29:27And so I study the other day that indicated, uh, that the age of first time home buyers now over 40. Over 40, most of us are getting ready to retire. Uh, at that age. I retired from state government at 52 after 30 years. I can imagine myself having to wait to be. I'm 40 something years old to provide a home for my children.
▶ 0:29:54What impact do these cuts having on hud? I would really be interested today in hearing, uh, from hud as well as, uh, from the department on the impact of this so-called deferred resignation program, which everything I hear indicate to me that it has been all about getting rid of staffing up here, sending all kinds of money out to, uh, contractors on the
▶ 0:30:26Ground, most of whom fall into the category that you just explained of being fraud and abuse. No waste, because they may they've been making effective use of that money. But fraud and abuse has multiplied as a result. According to my information. Can you speak to that from hud's perspective?
▶ 0:30:53>> I can the our audit work plan that we've published for y'all's benefit shows that we are going to to have a wide ranging look at hud's programs and operations throughout fy 2026. And our past work demonstrates a commitment to finding root causes for why inefficiency, effectiveness, or, uh, uneconomical actions have been taken. We won't shy away.
▶ 0:31:18We have found in the past that staffing has contributed to inefficiencies and ineffectiveness and in our work going forward, if that is a root cause, we will most certainly highlight it. >> my time is expired. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> now recognize a good chair from jacksonville, Mr. rutherford? >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, Mr. harris, and I'd like to kind of follow up on that. Uh, I know you've had some great success with the ghost tenant, uh, program. You've just talked about that.
▶ 0:31:47And that's and that's clearly fraud. And I'm really glad to see your background in federal investigations, uh, because that's what it's going to take to root out a lot of this fraud is understanding how to manage a criminal investigation. So I really appreciate that.
▶ 0:32:05Can can you talk a little bit, though, you mentioned that the system to to follow up to prevent improper payments like the do not pay uh program that determines eligibility so that we're not paying contractors, that we're not supposed to pay and we're not paying tenants, that we're not supposed to pay yet.
▶ 0:32:30So so the ghost in it is fraud not used, not utilizing the do not pay system is employer. Now what that makes me wonder is going back to my law enforcement career is how many people do we have in of those that you've arrested?
▶ 0:32:54Were any of those hud employees who were approving these payments when they were in the do not pay system, but they weren't checking it because that that was one of the things that you alluded to in your statement that there's not, um, not full compliance with following those checks before, uh, sending out the the funds can can you speak to that issue?
▶ 0:33:25>> improper payments is a concern at hud. And a lot of our work has been targeted historically at that. And in this coming year, we're going to be focusing some of our work with improper payments, uh, looking for fraud. Uh, as, as one of the professional staff put it, uh, we're going hunting for fraud. Yeah. Uh, what frustrates that is when there are not internal controls in place, uh, that prevent it.
▶ 0:33:51Because what we do know to be true in a fraud environment is that detection is harder than prevention. So considering that as as a truth at hud, we're frustrated by the lack of available data, the lack of data infrastructure, uh, that allows for a, a more efficient examination of how dollars are being executed.
▶ 0:34:19>> so let me so let me follow up and ask you this is there when when an employee fails to use the do not pay uh, check for eligibility. Are there disciplinary actions that are taken against those employees because they're the ones that are allowing this $212 million to be paid improperly.
▶ 0:34:43And I wonder sometimes how much of that is them working with a fraudster to, uh, to accomplish the fraud against hud? >> there's a gap between the individuals that are executing payment at hud, uh, and then the recipient and then even the sub recipients and the sub recipients of the sub recipients who who are actually benefiting from that funding.
▶ 0:35:13Uh, it's important to note that the department, uh, allowed to. >> but let me stop you there. The eligibility, though goes back to the to the dnp. Correct. >> it does, sir. And with dnp, uh, the hud allowed the computer matched uh, uh, agreement to expire um, this last year.
▶ 0:35:36Uh, they have now reconstituted that agreement and that is promoting compliance with dnp, which most certainly is that first step, uh, towards preventing fraud is not paying people that aren't entitled a payment. >> okay. Very good. Thank you.
▶ 0:35:56Um, I have a, uh, very quickly, um, if you could talk about cdbg, uh, disaster relief grants and how significant are the fraud risk in hud's disaster recovery programs following major disasters, and has hud making meaningful, meaningful progress in strengthening data coordination and oversight?
▶ 0:36:18I know that with 50 states, 50 different collection methods and all of that going on, uh, how difficult is it for you to to locate that fraud? >> you've most certainly put your your finger on the problem. Uh, with cdbg, there is, uh, it changes each time there's a disaster. And that inconsistency frustrates both the monitoring by hud and the oversight work by the oig.
▶ 0:36:48We believe, and it continues to be our position that it cb cdbg funds should be codified to promote that consistency. Ultimately, we need to simplify, streamline, and standardize the process so that monitoring is more effective and then the oversight work that attaches to that monitoring is more effective. >> thank you.
▶ 0:37:14And I may be reaching out to you about, I think, a fix for that very problem. I yield back. Mr. chairman. >> thank you, Mr. rutherford. Mr. quigley. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you both for being here as co-founder of the congressional transparency caucus. Appreciate the work igs play. Uh, it is concerning that the president has not nominated someone to serve as a permanent ig for, for dot or hud, but aside from that, I'd like to follow up on the ranking members issue related to staffing, particularly at hud.
▶ 0:37:46Um, the substance of the performance challenge report that you provided us for hud, uh, obviously a critical mission at hud, only 25% of the people who need housing assistance in the united states are receiving it in chicago. Uh, the housing choice voucher waitlist is closed because it's, uh, a wait times are 5 to 15 years.
▶ 0:38:14So, uh, obviously as need is there and we need to spend the money wisely. But the persistent housing quality problems highlighted in the report are a challenge in chicago. But at the same time, one of the core problems laid out in the ig report is staffing shortages. You can't address the important issues that relate to housing if you're continually slashing qualified, experienced staff with institutional memory.
▶ 0:38:41Uh, if the secretary here, what are your recommendations with the relationships to staffing and the ability of hud to get its work done? >> there's certainly a relationship between staffing and technology and a balance between them with respect to effectiveness and efficiency.
▶ 0:39:04Obviously, a heightened emphasis on building a stronger, uh, data infrastructure will allow hud to execute more efficiently.
▶ 0:39:16As I said earlier, it will continue to be, uh, a highlight of our work that if we find that a root cause is contributing to a particular failure at, at hud, and that root cause is staffing will highlight that in that instance, I don't know that I have an answer to speak across the entire department, because it requires us to do targeted work to determine what is causing a particular failure, and then
▶ 0:39:47What we think the recommendation is that should follow that failure. >> um, the trump administration has paused grant funding for a number of transportation infrastructure projects new york, new jersey, chicago, giving your office's mandate to prevent waste, fraud, abuse.
▶ 0:40:05Uh, has the oig evaluated the fiscal and operational impacts of those pauses on state dot's and local governments, particularly because things are getting more expensive? And when the pauses are there, those projects aren't going forward. Things are costing more. There are supply chain issues, uh, impacted by tariffs and the like. Have you analyzed those? The impact of those pauses?
▶ 0:40:34>> we we don't currently have any audit work ongoing regarding those pauses, whether it's to, you know, like you said, throughout the country, um, it's something that we'd be happy to discuss with committee staff with regards to, you know, considering a future audit there. We did recently complete an audit on, uh, the fda's capital investment grants program, which is a discretionary program, uh, where we we identified some concerns related to reliance on attestations from ceos rather than actual oversight.
▶ 0:41:03But obviously, it doesn't necessarily specifically address your question, something we'd be we'd definitely be looking to look at. >> uh, dot ig announced in august 2025 they were initiating an audit in response to the dc crash. At the request of several committees and members of congress to address faa's oversight, management of the airspace surrounding, uh, dca, and policies and procedures to oversee. Uh, I don't think there's been a preliminary report or update from ig. Is that correct?
▶ 0:41:33And where are we with that? >> that's correct. The hope is to get a final report out this fall. This fall, hopefully we'll have a final report out. >> is there anything you can reveal at this time and talk about what preliminary findings we've had? >> um, not not yet. Not until we're able to share it with the auditee, which won't be until later this summer. >> Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> miss mice. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you both for being with us this morning. Mr.
▶ 0:42:02Bingham, I want to start with you. Uh, one of the dot's most successful government industry partnerships is the faa contract tower program. And in 200, there's 266 smaller airports participating in the important air traffic safety program, including six in oklahoma, one of which is the wiley post airport in oklahoma city, uh, which is in my district contract tower support business aviation, dot flight training operations and military readiness and flight schools across the country. Mr.
▶ 0:42:34The dod ig's office has issued numerous positive audits of the contract tower program dating back to 1998. Can you give us a brief update on the program, including the um, audit required in the 2024 faa legislation that you expect to release very soon? >> yeah, that's I was going to say, really, are we similar to, to uh, uh, congressman quigley's question, we have we have a current another audit ongoing related to contract towers and related to the air traffic controllers there.
▶ 0:43:03As you've said, generally, they've been positive. And the recommendations that we've had, the faa has been responsive to. So again, our hope is to get that audit report out, uh, hopefully sometime this summer. >> fantastic. Mr. harrison, um, moving to you and fy 26 top management challenges a top priority listed is modernizing the grant funding.
▶ 0:43:26And you kind of touched on this a little bit earlier with the cdbg program, but hud awards large amounts of money to state and local governments as well as private organizations. Can you describe some of the challenges that hud faces, and the oig recommendations that you've given to ensure that grantees and sub grantees are spending the funds intended, um, and the oversight hud can exercise in that realm?
▶ 0:43:55>> the issues that I highlighted with disaster recovery equally apply across the grant universe. At at hud, the challenge with hud, in my estimation, is that we decentralize the execution of the funds, and we don't have the data infrastructure in place to actually know where the money is spent.
▶ 0:44:17Uh, in my submitted testimony, I highlighted that auditors, evaluators, and special agents who are looking at particular grant funding have to go out and ask recipients of grant funding where our money was spent. That equally is the challenge at hud as they attempt to monitor it. Um, this, in my view, is unacceptable.
▶ 0:44:40Uh, it hud will not be able to perform its mission successfully and account for improper payments until it increases its data infrastructure. And we believe that, uh, the early indications that we see with project hugs, uh, is, is that it is it is a a solution of the size to meet the problem of the size.
▶ 0:45:13>> don't you believe, though, that by, uh, improving data infrastructure in an agency like hud would actually be a cost savings to taxpayers? There may be a significant upfront cost, but you'll be able to have much more transparency into the grant process, therefore reducing the amount of fraud that could potentially occur in these grants and, or, um, awards that are being given. >> I agree. >> thank you. Um, Mr. mean, one more question for you.
▶ 0:45:37And this is sort of, I think, important, um, work that that has been highlighted across the country, but certainly in my home state of oklahoma. A january release from your office discussed a massachusetts man who was convicted for his role in cdl fraud.
▶ 0:45:52Uh, yesterday in a subcommittee hearing in the house, the commissioner from oklahoma for public safety was on the hill testifying about, uh, cdl arrests of individuals who should not have had a cdl license, uh, and actually had felony charges against these individuals as they were crisscrossing the united states.
▶ 0:46:16Um, it's become increasingly concerning to me, the number of cdl states issuing outside of federal regulations and the dangers that this presents across the country. Can you discuss the work your office is doing with homeland security investigations document and benefit fraud task force, and the recommendations that have been made to stop this? >> sure. Well, first of all. >> first of all, we we work very closely with federal motor carriers.
▶ 0:46:40We're on, uh, multiple uh, I guess I would call them task forces or or or or working groups, um, where obviously federal motor carriers is focused on the, uh, enforcement and the regulation. And we're focused on the, the criminal activity when it comes to cdl fraud, reincarnated carriers, cargo theft, all sorts. We are all over that. Um, I would just I would say that that.
▶ 0:47:09Again, there's a there's a line to be drawn as far as what the department, what federal motor carrier responsibility is versus versus ours. And when it comes to partnering with our fellow law enforcement agencies, you know, to the extent that, uh, that an allegation is made and, for example, we recently worked in a joint, you know, uh, with homeland security's to the extent that that, uh, that an allegation that's been made that violates, um, you know, again, immigration laws comes
▶ 0:47:40To, to to task. We're working with them. So I think I would say to you that we work very well and very closely across both law enforcement as well as, you know, across the the down the hall with federal motor carriers. And it's clearly a big problem and a big focus of the industry, of the administration, and has been a big focus of ours for many years. >> perfect. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield back. >> but you say you work closely with them. The question is to your satisfaction. I like on cargo theft as an example.
▶ 0:48:09Um, are you are you finding willing partners? Uh, you know, willing to prosecute, willing to hold people accountable because ultimately that's the that's the only real deterrent that we're going to have. Are you satisfied with that? >> absolutely. More than satisfied. Uh, the the the coordination has been has been great. >> very good. Mr. torres. >> uh, thank you, um, Mr.
▶ 0:48:38Chairman, and thank you for following up on that. Are we doing enough on cargo thefts? Is something that I'm very committed to working on with anyone on this committee. Uh, Mr. beam, Mr. harrison, thank you for being here. Uh, today, in your roles as acting inspector generals.
▶ 0:48:54Um, the trump administration is already preparing, as you may know, a supplemental funding request for the iran war that trump has started as of last, um, friday night, saturday morning, we are hearing that the president's decision to start this war is costing american taxpayers an estimated $1 billion per day per day.
▶ 0:49:21Yet, um, it has been over a year, and the trump administration has failed, uh, failed to take steps to request an emergency supplemental for california, a donor state after the devastating los angeles wildfires in january of last year.
▶ 0:49:44Uh, which left 31 people dead and displaced over 100,000 californians. California's initial request was over again a year ago, and the trump administration has not brought up a single request for the over $34 billion california needs to recover.
▶ 0:50:05There should be, um, there should not be a mention of any supplemental that does not include disaster aid for families that lost everything that they own to a fire. Um, Mr. beam and Mr.
▶ 0:50:25Harrison, will you commit to providing a report to my office on how disaster funding from hud and dot, uh, has been distributed, including the amounts and timing that have gone to states since january 20th of 2025. >> certainly, I think I believe we actually have an ongoing report. >> okay. >> and we can certainly work with you to find answers.
▶ 0:50:56>> thank you so much. I appreciate your collaboration on this issue. Um, second question, president trump and his administration have made it clear that he wants to punish states like california just because, um, our voters didn't support him.
▶ 0:51:15Uh, in january 2026, a court, um, hearing at a court hearing, a judge wrote that the trump administration and I quote, freely admit that they have made grant termination decisions primarily, if not exclusively, based on whether the awardee resided in a state whose citizens voted for president trump in 2024.
▶ 0:51:45Omb has also confirmed that they are reviewing funds in 14 states, including california. Um, to try to force states that rightfully oppose the president's agenda to comply. Whatever happened to states rights? This is just so unjustified.
▶ 0:52:04And just yesterday, california, colorado, illinois and minnesota challenged the administration in court yet again for their threats to cut $900 million in transportation funding and withholding 1.3 billion in disaster relief. Um, Mr. beam and Mr. harrison, once again, will you commit to investigating the unlawful cuts and withholding of funds at hud and dot for california and other states?
▶ 0:52:37>> yes. >> thank you. I appreciate that. >> our work in disaster recovery will continue. It's a major area of concern for us. >> so you will work, um, to you commit to investigating the unlawful cuts? >> I never start with the premise that something is unlawful, that that would be a lack of professional judgment. >> so will you commit to investigating the cuts and withholding of funds at hud and dot for california and other states? >> we will continue to focus on disaster recovery.
▶ 0:53:08>> okay. Um, I'm going to yield back, um, to the chairman and hope that we can get a second round. >> thank you. Thank you. Mr. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And, um, thank you, Mr. beam, for being here, Mr. harrison, for your testimony and, uh, for the work that you do. Your your work is critical in protecting american taxpayers and rooting out waste, fraud and abuse in our agencies. Mr.
▶ 0:53:38Harrison, I'll start with you. Um, I represent the district that is home to nearly 80,000 veterans. And as a member of both the veteran, the veteran affairs committee, and also, um, this committee, veteran homelessness is a key priority to me. Uh, the hud vash program is one of the federal government's primary tools to combat veteran homelessness.
▶ 0:54:00Yet we continue to see troubling low, um utilization rates in many jurisdictions, including in my home state of arizona. So can you explain why hud-vash vouchers are going unused when veterans in our communities are still in need of stable housing? And as a second part of that, uh, are there any recommendations you have for hud to increase the utilization rates?
▶ 0:54:28>> as a veteran, I appreciate the focus on our veteran community. We have looked at this issue, uh, in the past, and we have seen instances where where hud has, uh, not fully executed the funds available to it.
▶ 0:54:44And this is certainly one of those areas in our past work, we've done some surveys with public housing authorities, and the feedback we received from them is that the difficulty with the execution, uh, of these particular vouchers was that there's too high of a cost of housing or availability of housing. Those were the two top conditions. But beyond that, our work has drilled down into the partnership with v.a.
▶ 0:55:11We hud relies upon va to make referrals for this program, and it's our observation that the bar may be set too high. They're focusing on chronic homelessness, when in fact they they could be focused on homelessness. >> so going into your recommendations, uh, so that's one what else could be done on that. So so there's something that we need to work on with v.a. Directly on the on the standard of that, you would say.
▶ 0:55:38>> I believe it's both hud and va leadership need to connect together to place emphasis on this program. >> that thank you for that. And I'd love to talk more about that on more recommendations. You may have, uh, on that. We, we just, you know, our brave men and women who have served our nation. Ask yourself, thank you for your service. Should never go without a roof over their heads. And that that's the priority here. I look forward to working with you on that. Um, now, I'll stick with you for for this round, Mr. harris. Mr.
▶ 0:56:07Harrison, um, I share, uh, and others have expressed this as well, is that the chairman has concerns about the improper payments. So let me just, you know, um, dig in on that a little, a little more. Are there any arizona based grantees that hud, oig has identified as high risk for improper payments due to weak internal controls? >> no, there is not. >> thank you for, um, the agency's attention on this.
▶ 0:56:36This is this is highly critical and important, as you've seen from from the questions here today. This is one of the, the top concerns for for us on that taxpayer dollars must be used wisely and not abused either intentionally or unintentionally. Uh, it's our job to be monitors over that. So so thanks for the work on that. And I have a minute and a half year left. Uh, um, Mr.
▶ 0:56:59Bean, I, I recognize that the department inherited a substantial discretionary grant backlog, particularly following the surge of funding under the infrastructure investment and jobs act. And I appreciate the work being done to address this. That said, the arizona department of transportation has raised concerns to my office about unclear notices of funding opportunities, limited transparency and evaluating criteria and delays in award notifications as well. Um, all of which can complicate long term project planning.
▶ 0:57:27From your oversight perspective, um, have you identified ways dot could improve clarity and consistency in its nofo guidance and evaluation process? And are there best practices that the department could adopt to provide states with more predictable timelines for award decisions, so that they can plan and obligate funds more efficiently? So, as we're required. >> by law, we work with gao to make sure that we're coordinating work and there's no overlapping work.
▶ 0:57:57So unfortunately, with response to a specific, uh, answer to your question, this is something an area that gao has taken the lead on. And they have several projects completed and underway. That being said, um, in meetings that I've had on a recurring basis with the secretary's chief of staff, it's my understanding that they are currently working on and ready to launch new criteria, uh, related to the discretionary grant program that they hope will provide some more clarity, better guidance, and I think some, uh,
▶ 0:58:29Smoothness to the process. >> I'll circle back with joe, but, um, this is a long standing issue for maybe other states as well, but definitely for us. Um, and it can save money, it can be more efficient. It can get these projects going faster and serve the public in a quicker way. So I look forward to working with you on that. Mr. chairman, thank you for the for the time I yield back. >> thank you, miss watson. Coleman. >> thank you. Chairman. Um, thank you, gentlemen, for being here today.
▶ 0:58:57I guess I have some process questions because I think you have two and very important, um, departments, uh, that impact quality of life, survivability, things of that nature to so many people. Um, Mr. bean, you mentioned something about a sole source contractor working with your department. What is what was the name of that contractor?
▶ 0:59:23>> it was several contracts that the faa had had entered into with, uh, related to the next gen, the prior uh, air traffic control modernization. And it's really a matter of, uh, of follow on, you know, there's a they enter into a contract and then they have option years that can be extended, essentially sole source. So that's really what I was referring to. >> is there a name? Did you give a name? >> I I'd have to get back to you on. >> you gave a name. >> what's that? >> I thought you had shared a name. >> oh no, I.
▶ 0:59:54>> mentioned peraton. Who is the. They're the lead integrator for the new, uh, brand new air traffic control system. >> so what is their function? >> their function is to essentially be an entity that provides oversight over the entire program. >> that's what I wanted to understand. So what's their relationship to your office? >> they are they are a contractor of faa who we whom we audit. >> okay. In your office, how many people are employed?
▶ 1:00:24>> uh, currently it's closer to about 330. >> okay. >> um. Mr. harrison, the same question to you. How many people are employed in your department, in your division under you? >> supposedly our current staffing is 432, and then we have a number of contractors that support us also. >> I guess my my question to you all is that you've got very convoluted systems, very complex systems.
▶ 1:00:53What precipitates your involvement in what goes on in your department? Is it a complaint? Is it your general oversight? What is it? How do you get involved? >> well, obviously we have audits and investigations and investigations on the criminal side. Most of it is is is responsive, reactive, not proactive. We get complaints. We get a lot of referrals from within the department.
▶ 1:01:20There frankly, are our best customers, I guess you'd say lots of hotline complaints and so forth and other referrals from other law enforcement. >> do you do any proactive stuff. >> on the investigation side? We do. Like I said, we're doing some work with federal motor carriers. Related to that, we do quite a bit of outreach to state and local governments, identifying what they need to look for when it comes to fraud. Um, but obviously when it comes to criminal, it's usually reactive. >> thank you. Mr. harrison. Could you respond to that?
▶ 1:01:50>> yeah, my answer is very similar. We of course have our statutory hotline and that does feed work. Our office of investigations is leaning heavily into looking at different ways to proactively develop investigations. That's often hampered by lack of access to quality data. >> so, Mr. harrison, you mentioned and correct me if I misunderstood that there were somewhere between 90 or 85 criminal.
▶ 1:02:18Uh, concerns in hud convictions, I don't know what what do you remember saying that? Okay. I want to know who they are. Are they in the system? Are they the tenants? Are they the landlords? Are they somebody else? Are they employees? What what percentage of those complaints? >> my answer is yes. It's all of those.
▶ 1:02:43And we would have to get back to you with respect to percentages to have an appreciation of the the nature of the defendants in our cases. >> my concern is that sometimes the tenant is at the end of the chain and somehow gets caught up in it and doesn't get his or her, uh, housing that they need. And so I would very much like to know to what extent our, uh, the people that we're supposed most vulnerable people we're supposed to be looking out for are being negatively impacted.
▶ 1:03:16Could you tell me why there are so many outstanding requests for section eight housing? Is it an issue of money that we don't give the department? >> I'm sorry. In in many instances, uh, it's the lack of availability. >> of. >> of actual, uh, available, uh, homes for people to move into. >> in new jersey.
▶ 1:03:44We find that it's a, um, it's also a big problem with having reached a cap in the section eight housing, which is less than the need. How is that determined? >> uh. >> and corrected earlier. >> you you said something that's important is obviously, uh, funding does play a role. The the public housing authorities will always say that they need more money to, to do their, their job.
▶ 1:04:13Well, uh, I would have to get back to you with a more detailed answer. >> okay, I I'm going to yield back now, Mr. chairman, and I think I'm going to hang around for a second round. Thank you so much, gentlemen. >> well, you're most welcome to hang around, Mr. strong. Thank you, chairman womack, ranking member clyburn, for holding these hearings today. Uh, I thank our witnesses for being here and for all you do in your hard work.
▶ 1:04:40My district in north alabama is blessed to be experiencing significant economic development and population growth. The growth is being driven by the robust federal investments in space command, golden dome, fbi, the marshall space flight center, as well as across redstone arsenal. Currently, over 138,000 people from across north alabama and as far as southern tennessee commute to huntsville, uh, every day for employment.
▶ 1:05:07This number is expected to sharply increase in the coming years. It is crucial that our state and federal highway system receive the investments needed to support increased road and bridge capacity, and I stress capacity. It is vital that all federal agencies root out waste, fraud, abuse, and we must hold accountable those who take advantage of the system.
▶ 1:05:30In fiscal year 2025, dod obligated over 140 billion in grants and contract funds. Uh, Mr. beam, what happens when tax dollars are dished out to these, uh, magnitudes without any risk monitoring or proactive oversight throughout the life of the grant?
▶ 1:05:53>> well, depending on what the type of grant it is, that's the dependent that that that's the level of oversight that, again, that the federal government provides. So obviously, all of a lot of the formula funding, uh, which is the bulk of the funding that comes from federal highways to each of the states, um, it's really far more reliant on the states to ensure that the funds are being used as they are intended to be used according to their state transportation infrastructure plan.
▶ 1:06:21Um, but that being said, you know, federal highways has a significant role to ensure that these states have those internal controls and so forth, plans and so forth in place. >> thank you. Uh, how does your office ensure dot grant programs are responsive to high growth areas that are not just going to those, uh, bridges to nowhere projects? >> I mean, obviously, a lot of that is more, um, policy questions rather than, uh, than than, I think, audit questions.
▶ 1:06:50Um, but that being said, obviously, when it comes to reviews of discretionary grant programs, um, the key what we would look at again, although like I explained to, to, to congressman, is that, uh, gao has been taking the lead on those discretionary grant programs. But again, the discretionary grant programs, it's a matter of are they following the the criteria that they set in place? >> thank you. North alabama is also home to significant drone operations and testing.
▶ 1:07:16Uh, the safe integration of beyond visual line of sight drone operations is a top priority for the faa, congress, and the trump administration. Uh, mister beam, how can the faa better leverage lessons learned from operational environments such as those in alabama's fifth district to ensure the real world data informs safe drone operations? >> yeah, I think that that you hit the nail on the head. The key.
▶ 1:07:44What we have found in our audit work of, uh, of of drones and faa's oversight of them is that they've been, for example, approving increasing numbers of the beyond visual line of sight. The bvlos operations. However, uh, you know, what we've also identified is that it's it's still difficult for the participants to meet the metrics and requirements to participate. Um, and then additionally, what we found is that they're not the agency is not using the data that they have in order to inform these rulemakings.
▶ 1:08:13So, for example, the, the experiences that, that, that they've had in alabama, it's important to use those to learn to apply to drone operations throughout the country. >> thank you. Mr. harrison. Your office has made clear that hud's grant management system is fragmented and disorganized, creating, uh, inconsistent oversight and financial integrity risk.
▶ 1:08:35What is your office doing to ensure that criminals who seek to scam, swindle, and defraud can no longer take advantage of the hud system and to establish long term mechanisms for oversight, accountability, and transparency for the agency. >> our office continues with its efforts to engage in strategic outreach with the grantees that are executing funds.
▶ 1:09:02This this relationship allows for us to receive referrals from them concerning fraud. Uh, beyond that, and speaking more broadly to the issue of of grant management, the lack of available subrecipient data is, is is continuing to be a significant challenge. We simply don't know who has the money.
▶ 1:09:28Therefore we don't know the relationships between the people that are spending the money at the recipient subrecipient and subrecipient level. This is a heightened area of emphasis for us, and I alluded to earlier some of our proactive efforts. We're attempting to reconstruct those records on the investigative side and on the improper payment side.
▶ 1:09:53Currently, in the two largest programs, tenant based rental assistance and project based rental assistance, uh, we have undertaken to actually perform the estimate of improper payments. And while my staff is certainly encouraged me, not to mention numbers, uh, when those numbers come out later this year, I think it will get your attention. >> thank you, chairman womack. I yield back. >> Mr. sba. >> thank you. Chairman womack and ranking member clyburn. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:10:22Beam, um, we've heard from Mr. quigley about infrastructure projects in chicago area. And, of course, we read about the gateway, uh, project, uh, in new jersey, which I think is, uh, a national security related project, the northeast corridor from boston to virginia is so fragile that any problem there will somewhat paralyze rail, uh,
▶ 1:10:55Going up and down from from new england to to virginia. And yet, uh, this project proposed to provide 90,000 union jobs in addition to the jobs that will have been created by the project in, in chicago, in the illinois's, uh, area. And in my district, you have the second avenue subway, which will connect the biggest transportation desert, east harlem, to the rest of the world.
▶ 1:11:24That would also create another 70,000 jobs. It seems to me that the administration is killing jobs, you know, hundreds, a hundred thousand jobs, over 100,000 jobs easily in these three projects, union jobs, for that matter. And so I want to know what your office is doing regarding second avenue subway.
▶ 1:11:49We know that gateway, uh, was resolved in the courts favorably, but what are you doing, if anything, uh, to address, we're holding funds for the second avenue subway project. >> so. >> as I said to congressman quigley, we currently do not have any work underway related to the funds withheld or the concerns surrounding funds withheld from various projects.
▶ 1:12:16But we would be happy to discuss with you and the committee and the committee staff, to the extent that there would be a request for us to conduct that kind of work. >> I would like to see that, uh, this is, uh, a sloping economy, inflation continue to rage, unemployment, uh, and these projects could really, uh, provide oxygen to the economy. But the administration continues to consistently block the creation of jobs. And that is a problem.
▶ 1:12:44My second question is, uh, on march 2024, Mr. beam the dot announced an industry wide periodic review of us airlines and their management of passenger sensitive personal information information.
▶ 1:13:02This is passenger data that's being sold or shared without a subpoena or any kind of court order by the, uh, airlines, uh, to, uh, dhs agencies. Uh, what is your office role in oversight and ensuring that the agency is not improperly sharing personal sensitive data with other executive branch agencies, such as dhs?
▶ 1:13:33>> yeah, I'll have to get back to you on that, congressman. >> two strikes, Mr. beam. Hmm. The third one, and you're out. Mr. harrison. Uh, earlier this month, hud released a proposed rule that would prohibit families with mixed immigration status from receiving housing assistance or living in hot housing programs like public housing and section eight. This is going to split up. Families.
▶ 1:14:02Has the oig assessed whether this rule would increase evictions, homelessness or emergency housing costs for local governments, and what oversight risk might arise if large numbers of families lose assistance simultaneously? >> as I understand it, that proposed rule is open for notice and comment. And, uh, therefore we're not engaging in any oversight of a proposed rule. As a general principle.
▶ 1:14:33We need a final rule, and then we need a body of evidence to measure against in order to form a professional judgment on the effect of it. So I can't speculate in this forum about what the effect of it will be, because I don't know what the rule is yet. >> I hope that the result is not to split families and throw people out out of their homes. Grandma status is irregular, but the rest of the family are U.S. citizens or are legal holding, uh, green card holders.
▶ 1:15:05I hope you don't throw, uh, that family out. But, Mr. beam, I want to get back to you quickly and and hope that the sharing of personal information, passenger information is not compromised. That is critical. When I take an airplane, I don't want my data shared with anybody unless I give them permission. Do you agree? That's a basic principle that we should adhere to. >> yes, yes. >> thank you so much. I yield back.
▶ 1:15:35>> and on the subject of strikes, let's. We're still in spring training. Okay. >> the season really hadn't started yet. >> I don't know about that, chairman. It seems to me they struck out. >> yeah, well, and remember. >> I may have pitched some high and tight, though. >> and and now in the new rules, um, there can be an appeal of a strike call. So go to the abs system. We're going to, um, continue with another round.
▶ 1:16:01Uh, and I would respectfully ask the members maybe to keep their questions to maybe three minutes to be respectful of everybody's time and and the lunch hour, and I'll recognize myself again. That was budget chair in 2018. So I drafted the 2019 budget. And, um, the subject of improper payments came up.
▶ 1:16:29Then as we were attempting to pass, um, a budget that would pass muster and improper payments was just a topic thrown out there that had hundreds of billions of dollars attached to it. And ever since then, I've been amazed at how easily the term improper payments just flows off the tongue. Uh, as if it's something that is expected.
▶ 1:16:54And and my guess is, is that because federal funds are involved, taxpayer money is involved. If you want to look for waste, fraud and abuse, just go where that money is flowing because that's where the professionals go to, uh, you know, to, to get to get a pay day. So for both of you, what are the trend lines on improper payments.
▶ 1:17:16And I know there the the term improper payments means something different in the area of housing, as maybe it does in the area of transportation, but still public money destined for a specific purpose to certain qualified people. That doesn't go to those people. Instead go somewhere else. Uh, fits that definition. So what are the trends right now? Are we making progress?
▶ 1:17:43>> I hesitate to use the word hope, but I can say that the conditions right now at hud are different. One of the principal factors in fraud risk management is tone at the top. And we see something different happening at hud with secretary turner's emphasis on fraud. It is easy for me to get an audience and talk about fraud with any anyone on his leadership team.
▶ 1:18:11The reinstitution of do not pay is a concrete, uh, step taken forward. The. Project hugs and project vouchers, uh, we believe are. Squarely fit the size of the problem.
▶ 1:18:32But we do have concerns behind that, that the project management of those, uh, must promote the solution that we all want to see. >> what about on the dot side? It's usually involving contracts and. >> right, right. And I think, well, something that you said, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Improper payments can mean a wide variety of things. So obviously there's the improper payments that are truly fraud.
▶ 1:18:59And then there's the improper payments that, according to the definition created by gao, is a, you know, somebody made a little incorrect mark somewhere, which so ultimately there it wasn't as though someone was defrauding the government, but that it wasn't fully documented. So I think that what I would say with regards to over the last ten plus years, the department of transportation has been doing a much better job.
▶ 1:19:23And obviously we have outside, uh, outside contractors, the big, uh, essentially accounting firms that that conduct these types of reviews on a, on an annual basis. So it's something that we're continuing to look at. >> yeah.
▶ 1:19:36Well, you know, as an appropriator, I can tell you that, um, anytime that you, uh, give an agency an account flush with money, uh, and particularly if it's happening in a fiscal year where you're already 4 or 5 months into the fiscal year, uh, that provides a recipe, I think, for, um, not being totally accountable for all of the all of the outlays. And I'll I'll leave it there, Mr. clyburn. >> thank you very much, Mr.
▶ 1:20:06Chairman. I attempted and would like to have some, uh, answers about the impact, uh, of hud losing over 4000 employees and your office losing, what, 52 employees under this deferred program?
▶ 1:20:25And the impact that it's having on your ability to address issues like the one I'm particularly concerned about at this moment, and that is the implementation and administration of fair housing laws. I'm particularly interested in people who are, uh, veterans, people with disabilities. Uh, and the complaints we can continue to get about this.
▶ 1:20:52I've written a letter to her asking for response. I think senator warren has written a letter, uh, from, uh, his shed, uh, whistleblower's complaint about this. And as one who is about to celebrate the 47th anniversary of his 39th birthday, uh, I'm concerned about seniors and whether or not they're being treated fairly.
▶ 1:21:18Uh, our complaints in our office indicate that there's something amiss with the administration of the fair housing program. Are you all looking into this? >> uh, we did receive the complaint, and, uh, we are generally concerned about how staffing can impact hud as a whole with respect to the fair housing, there has been changes in staffing, and we have examined, uh, whether those are
▶ 1:21:50Lawful exercises of discretion, uh, in doing so and what we found and even in the whistleblower complaint is that they are speculating about the future impact of staffing. They may be right, but in the oig, we have to be careful about resting our conclusions on evidence of that.
▶ 1:22:13And not enough time has passed to understand the impact of changing how they're approaching the mission. And once a certain amount of time has passed, where we have the evidence, where we we can do a comparative analysis to the historical prosecution of that mission, uh, we'll be capable of doing so at that time.
▶ 1:22:38>> well, I'm a little bit concerned about this passage of time, because I do believe the time itself is neutral. The question is the effective use of the time. Are you feeling this passage of time with any activity? To get us an answer to this question, we can sit back and wait for the next ten years and time will be passing. But what are you feeling that time with?
▶ 1:23:06>> I don't mean to suggest we're going to to wait ten years. Um. >> well, let me attend. Even if you wait in ten months. You're telling me there's been not enough passage of time? What does that mean? >> we have to gain an understanding of how the mission is being executed. >> well, is there enough activity on your part to try to find answers to these questions within that passage of time? >> yeah, there's two layers of discretion that attach here.
▶ 1:23:34Uh, at the department. First is where are the attorneys that are going to prosecute this mission? Uh, having a centralized function at headquarters is not required by statute. They are permitted to have that function performed elsewhere within hud. The second layer of discretion is which cases the department seeks to pursue that it feels are meritorious.
▶ 1:24:01We're not in a position to examine the lawful exercise of discretion. What we are in a position to do is see the effect of that lawful exercise of discretion. Currently, we don't have any ongoing work on this particular topic, but I expect that we will in the future. >> okay, let's be hopeful. >> Mr. rutherford. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr.
▶ 1:24:29Beam, if I could ask just real quick, um, you mentioned the audit of in your written testimony, you mentioned the audit of fmc, uh, concerning their oversight of state cdl programs. Can you tell me when that's expected to be out? >> yeah, that's that was just recently started. So I would say, um, optimistically the end of the year. >> okay.
▶ 1:24:56And and, um, I want to talk about the 20 in route, um, control centers, uh, one of which is jacksonville center, uh, at atc, staffing has been a major focus of secretary duffy, the faa myself since I've been up here.
▶ 1:25:14Um, when I speak to those controllers, uh, I hear experiences from from them about the difficulties with, uh, overtime responsibilities, the inability of lack of flexibility for time off. Uh, and then just the, the general stress of that enroute, uh, center work. Uh, and you mentioned that they were 15% below staffing levels.
▶ 1:25:44Now, I know that the oig spent a lot of time dealing with, uh, or looking at this issue. Can you please talk a little more about that move? And what is it that the oig is looking at? Can we expect some audits in this field as well?
▶ 1:26:10>> we've done we have a whole body of work related to air traffic controller, mostly related to to training and staffing. Um, obviously it's the it's determined on the administration and the department and how to accelerate that. So I think that there's been a, uh, good push and some, some improvement related to opening the, you know, certain schools up to providing more air traffic controllers into the system.
▶ 1:26:36Um, but ultimately, it's a it's a very difficult nut to crack because in particular, a lot of the critical facilities where the where, where, which is where, uh, these, these these are 15 plus percent, you know, below, uh, where they would like to be, for example, I think, uh, new york tracon in miami is is shy of 60%, uh, capacity.
▶ 1:26:59So, um, you know, and then, but then then, like I said, a lot of what we're doing, our focus now is more on ensuring that once you have an influx of junior air traffic controllers, are they getting the training that they need and what does it count? If you have a if you've just now fully staffed a tracon or an en route, uh, center with, you know, now you're at full capacity, but it's 50% trainees. Is that really full capacity? So there's a lot of work to be done. And obviously it's a very important issue. >> so thank you.
▶ 1:27:29And with that, Mr. chairman I yield back. And thank you for the second round. >> miss watson coleman. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. harrison, I just want to make a point. I'm not sure there's a question in this, but, uh, congressman clyburn has continuously asked you about how the performance is today. Um, whether or not you're doing a hud is doing not you.
▶ 1:27:55Hud is doing what it needs to be needs to do. And you keep saying, well, we haven't had enough time to collect the information. Um, I think we know what happened last year, and we know what happened the year before and the year before that. We should know what's happening in real time. And based upon what we know, we ought to be able to make some intelligent, um.
▶ 1:28:23Inference about whether or not we're meeting our mark and delivering the services. So I would like for you to rethink that. Um, and not recognize that we need ten more months or eight more months or seven more months to tell us whether or not we're meeting our mark now. And that's that's what I wanted to say about that. Um, Mr. beam, I got a question for you.
▶ 1:28:50Remember the ridiculousness associated with whether or not new jersey and the region was going to get the gateway money? Only if we named the tunnel after the current president. Were you at all involved in that? >> no, ma'am. >> um, would you be involved in that kind of thing? >> um, unlikely, except to the extent that it crossed into, uh, um, a potential audit related to withholding funds. >> all right.
▶ 1:29:16So moving forward, if the president wants to hold up federal money to a project until certain conditions are met that are totally unrelated to the intent of the project, you wouldn't have any involvement. >> uh, not not directly, no. >> um, okay, so we can look for more to come. Thank you, I yield back. >> Mr. vice. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr.
▶ 1:29:43Harrison, you mentioned in earlier testimony the public housing authorities, and I was surprised to learn when I became a member of this subcommittee. The vast number of fps that exist across the country, 3300 plus, is my understanding.
▶ 1:29:58Do you think that there is an concern or a challenge with trying to manage funding that are going to so many entities that are also maybe not able to report, um, the information that they are issuing the grants through your office properly. >> the number is exceptionally high. I've heard estimates as high as 3700.
▶ 1:30:23The most recent was 3600 that you said 3300 highlights. Part of the problem. >> we don't even know is part of the problem. >> that there's there we can count them, sure, but that there's different numbers out there. Certainly, uh, demonstrates the the problem. The money goes out from hud, and hud knows how much money it's giving to the fps.
▶ 1:30:43It's a a game of estimation and guesstimation, uh, to figure out, uh, how to reconcile money appropriately. And that is because it is a completely nontransparent environment once it hits the grantee, because we don't have access to how that money is being spent, which requires an audit or monitoring of that particular money.
▶ 1:31:12What we've seen when we go out to large public housing authorities, or even medium sized ones, is there there's often a difficulty, even for us to be able to to reconcile the funding.
▶ 1:31:25That is why we are highlighting, uh, in our work this next year to go to public housing authorities and look at their financial management controls and learn better how they're doing business, then, uh, when that is considered alongside the future of of project vouchers, that will give us a better, uh, ability to be more efficient in first stopping payments that shouldn't go out, but then also just more efficiently tracing the transaction to where it
▶ 1:31:56Went and utilizing that data, uh, to have, uh, better targeted audits and proactive investigations. When we see anomalies in data. >> are you able to audit these fas yourself? >> we certainly are, and we certainly have.
▶ 1:32:11We've looked at their fraud risk management practices, which we have found to be lacking, uh, much like the fraud risk management that is lacking at hud, but for the same reason is that it is incredibly difficult to come into compliance with these laws when there's just not data infrastructure capable of doing so efficiently. >> do you believe that there is a need to codify some of the policies and procedures as it relates to these grantees? That would make it more transparent?
▶ 1:32:41>> I don't know if codification is the answer, but it is a routine finding in audits that grantees are are confused by the instructions. And that certainly frustrates us when it comes to an audit, because we have to to to pay due attention to complaints by grantees and sub recipients of those grants that they don't understand the instruction. And sometimes that's validated in our audit.
▶ 1:33:06So clearer instructions, consistent instructions and then holding people to those standards, we believe is important to the success of hud. >> perfect. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield. >> Mr. cisco. >> thank you. Chairman. Um, and there is two quick questions. Hopefully we can get through them in three minutes. Um, in arizona we're seeing a rapid expansion of autonomous vehicles. Uh, Mr. bean, this is for you. Uh, from trucks to cars. Uh, how prepared is d.o.t.
▶ 1:33:35To oversee autonomous vehicles? Overall. >> I think obviously, we're still at the early stages. So the key from I think the department is creating the policies, um, and regulation, um, before they actually, you know, move into, you know, I think the phase two of what ultimately is, is approved, permitted and so forth.
▶ 1:33:55But it's I would say it's still early days, especially from where we sit as far as auditing, um, you know, generally with regards to like auditing a, a, a policy that is still in its nascency is, is sometimes premature. So we haven't done a lot of work in that regard yet, but clearly it's on our radar. >> yeah, I hope that it's it's a priority that there's, you know, definitely moving in that direction.
▶ 1:34:21And arizona has been we have uh, specific companies and state that do this for both semis but also for cars and, and um, I think it's an area where, where policy needs to catch up with technology here and what we're seeing more and more of. So, um, more than on your radar, I hope that we, that we dig into that because our state calls for that, uh, last half of my last lot of time here.
▶ 1:34:48Uh, how effectively is, is, um, dot coordinating with border agencies to ensure efficient freight movement through ports of entry and specifically in southern arizona. But you could expand it. But I'm interested in arizona specifically. >> so I'm not certain.
▶ 1:35:07>> with regards to how closely, you know, the the the department is coordinating with, with, uh, department of homeland security, in this case, cbp, whoever, uh, um, it may be again, when, when, when we are, you know, involved in a, in an operation in particular on the criminal side, you know, we make sure that we're coordinating with, uh, with law enforcement, but, um, that's, I think perhaps, maybe a better question. Or we can get back to you after we speak with, uh, federal motor carriers about that.
▶ 1:35:36>> yeah, that that partnership is definitely key, as, um, on, on train and rail specifically, we we see some of that, um, especially in areas of the port of entry where there's a lot of security, there's a lot of wall, there's, you know, the infrastructure is there and rail and freight, freight tends to be, uh, sometimes preferred uh, avenue for, for criminal activity. So, uh, I do want to see it some coordination on that, but that's, uh, that's all for now.
▶ 1:36:04Chairman, I thank you. Yield back. >> thank you, Mr. strong. Bring us home. Uh, Mr. >> uh, Mr. beam, president trump has made it clear that professional drivers operating on american roads must be able to speak, uh, speak and understand english. How is your office monitoring and enforcing compliance with the executive order to prevent rampant, dangerous cdl fraud and abuse? Uh, we saw in the biden administration.
▶ 1:36:30>> so, again, uh, we just recently, um, initiated an audit related to, um, cdl and the knowledge and skills tests that are required. Um, again, our audit will be focused on the federal motor carriers oversight of that, rather than the states themselves. And again, I think the the key something that I said earlier that it's the federal motor carriers is responsible for the enforcement of, of those of those laws. >> my family is on a fleet of 45 foot busses for more than 40 years.
▶ 1:36:59I have a or had a cdl passenger endorsement. Legitimate commercial driver's license is essential rules of the road. You must understand and know the english language signage. Understand turning radiuses stopping distances and also understand you cannot do a u turn with an 80,000 pound vehicle and a 45 foot trailer in the middle of the interstate, Mr. beam. Another issue affecting safety is the severe nationwide shortage of safe trucking or truck parking.
▶ 1:37:28When truck drivers can't find parking, they're forced to park on the highway shoulder or exceed hours of service limits, creating dangerous driving conditions. Uh, how significant is the truck parking shortage as a safety risk? And what accountability measures exist to ensure federal infrastructure dollars are being used to address this problem? >> yeah. >> that's something that we recently added to our 24 month audit plan, which we what we prepare every year.
▶ 1:37:56So it's on our radar to take a look at, um, but haven't haven't conducted any audit work there yet. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> glad you mentioned truck parking. Uh, because this, uh, committee just put $200 million into the dot's accounts for specifically truck, uh, truck parking.
▶ 1:38:16And we're going to be anxious to see how that money is allocated and, uh, and how we're reaping the benefits that will tell us whether or not we're on the right track or whether we need to pull back and go in a different direction. >> Mr. chairman, I commend you for your efforts. I know in that process you were relentless to be sure that that 200 million was not pulled out of there, and that's the reason that I listed it. Thank you. And I yield back. >> I had a lot of help from this subcommittee and my ranking member, Mr. clyburn, and I'm grateful for that.
▶ 1:38:44I want to thank both of you gentlemen for being here with us today, deputy inspector general mitch beam and acting inspector general brian harrison, along with your staff for your participation. Your work is important. We appreciate your service to the public. Committee staff will be in touch regarding any questions that we might have for the record. And with that, Mr. clyburn, thank you again. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I want to say that, uh, Mr.
▶ 1:39:11Rutherford has just spent a little time in south carolina, and I've been trying to get you to come. >> was he lost? >> uh, but he got found. Uh, but, you know, I've been thinking a little bit, uh, today, south carolina has two mottos. The one that's most popular and people know is while I breathe, I hope, uh, and I live by that motto.
▶ 1:39:31But we have a second motto, uh, which this hearing is, uh, reminded me a little bit of today prepared in mind and resources. Uh, I'm very hopeful, uh, that we are prepared in mind and resources to get the job done. That needs to be done, uh, for the american people. And with that, Mr. chairman, looking forward to your visit to south carolina soon.
▶ 1:39:59Uh, and enjoy, uh, what Mr. rutherford just enjoyed down there. Mr. strong, you can come on over to, uh, thank you so much. >> look forward. >> to in south carolina three weeks ago. >> very good. >> this hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.