▶ 0:18:53You ready? Ready. >> the hearing of the committee on oversight and government reform will come to order. I want to welcome everyone here today. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Good morning. Today's hearing is about a failure of leadership, plain and simple.
▶ 0:19:17For years, governor tim walz and attorney general keith ellison presided over one of the most extensive breakdowns of oversight. This committee has ever examined. Billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from social service programs. While warnings piled up, whistleblowers spoke out, and state officials chose delay and denial over action. Federal prosecutors estimate that as much as $9 billion may have been stolen from just 14 medicaid programs administered by the state of minnesota.
▶ 0:19:49Those programs have cost taxpayers more than $18 billion since 2018, and investigators believe that half or more of that spending may have been lost to fraud. And that did not happen overnight, as our investigation has shown. It happened because state leadership failed repeatedly to intervene. Governor walz has claimed his administration addressed fraud. And I quote, very early, unquote. But that claim does not hold up to the facts.
▶ 0:20:18His administration kept payments flowing in january, the first hearing of this series, we heard from minnesota state representatives who made clear this fraud was not hidden. It was known, documented and repeatedly brought to the attention of state leadership.
▶ 0:20:36In case after case, state agencies identified red flags and received warnings from auditors and employees, but continued to send money out the door not because they lacked authority to intervene, but because they feared lawsuits. Bad press and political backlash. While governor walz hesitated, taxpayers lost billions. Attorney general ellison has likewise claimed his office was aggressively holding fraudsters accountable.
▶ 0:21:06But when his statements were tested against the record, they fell apart in the feeding our future case. Governor walz and attorney general ellison publicly suggested that courts force the state to continue payments. The judges in that case took the extraordinary step of publicly correcting them. The truth is, the state made a choice once again to keep sending the money out the door.
▶ 0:21:28The feeding our future scandal alone involved nearly $300 million stolen from programs meant to feed children during the pandemic. We're talking about fake invoices, meals that never existed, luxury cars and overseas investments all paid by the american taxpayer. Today, dozens have been convicted. The fraud was real. The warning signs were obvious, and state leadership failed to act.
▶ 0:21:55The same pattern repeats across minnesota's social services system in the child care assistance program, providers racked up dozens and in some cases, more than 100 violations and still collected millions. Facilities shut down and reopened the same day under new names at the same address. This went on for years. Housing stabilization systems.
▶ 0:22:20Housing stabilization services, a program expected to cost $2.6 million annually, exploded to over $100 million a year. Federal prosecutors have described it as, and I quote, easy money providers billed services never delivered. While the waltz administration failed to intervene until federal agents showed up. And when state employees tried to stop this, they were silenced and retaliated against for even daring to notice the fraud.
▶ 0:22:48We have spoken with over 30 whistleblowers, many of them current employees and democrats who say they were ignored, retaliated against and even surveilled for raising concerns instead of protecting the whistleblowers. The waltz administration protected the system that enabled the fraud. We are taking oversight of fraud seriously. And today, I hope the democrats will do the same. But their track record is not promising.
▶ 0:23:15We followed up with the whistleblowers when state leaders ignored them. Republican staff spent 36 hours and 46 minutes in nine transcribed interviews with current and former minnesota state officials. Democrats, however, only asked three hours and 14 minutes worth of questions. That's inexcusable and frankly, embarrassing. Taxpayers deserve better. We are working with the trump administration, which has taken a whole of government approach to stop fraud before money is stolen.
▶ 0:23:43What we've uncovered in minnesota is not a paperwork error, or a few bad actors slipping through the cracks. It is sustained failure of leadership. Governor walton, attorney general ellison, were warned repeatedly. Auditors raised red flags. Employees sounded alarms, invoices didn't make sense. And still the money kept flowing.
▶ 0:24:07While state officials hesitated, billions of taxpayer dollars were stolen from programs meant to serve children, the disabled and families in crisis. While whistleblowers were silenced, fraudsters got rich. Accountability shouldn't begin only after federal prosecutors step in and clean up the damage. Accountability should compel leaders to act. And here they did not.
▶ 0:24:32Today, this committee expects answers, and we expect an explanation for why it took federal law enforcement, not state leadership, to finally turn off the spigot. Before we proceed, I'd like to ask unanimous consent to enter the committee's interim staff report, titled the cost of doing nothing how tim walz and keith ellison fueled minnesota's fraud explosion into the record. Without objection, so ordered. And with that, I now yield the ranking member, garcia, for his opening statement. >> thank you. Chairman.
▶ 0:25:01I want to thank, of course, the governor for being here today, the attorney general as well. And to reverend mariah, thank you so much for being here. I especially want to thank the minnesotans that I know have traveled here to be with us today to witness this hearing, but also in solidarity of the horrors and terrors that are happening not just in minnesota, but that have happened across the country.
▶ 0:25:25Now we look forward to hearing directly on what life in minnesota has been like, thanks to the trump administration's actions. And the truth is that donald trump and republicans have cut billions of dollars, billions of dollars from health care and food assistance. That is a reality. Instead, with that money, they've used it to hire officers who are now terrorizing cities and killing americans.
▶ 0:25:53That's where our taxpayer dollars have gone. We've taken from food assistance, we've taken from health care, and we've super funded terror on american streets. Now, donald trump has unleashed chaos against innocent americans and across minnesota. And we're going to talk about that today, terror that has actually impacted real families and kids like liam ramos, who have been used, as we know, as bait. And we all know liam's story really well.
▶ 0:26:22The reality is, american citizens, innocent kids, people have been brutalized and ripped away from their families. They've been thrown into detention centers with horrible conditions that people are literally dying in these centers. Peaceful americans have been killed by federal officers and agents and labeled them as domestic terrorists or assassins by their own government. Where is the hearing and the outrage for those actions? Now, alex, as we all know, a v.a.
▶ 0:26:50Nurse was peacefully exercising his first and second amendment rights when he was pepper sprayed, tackled, disarmed and then shot repeatedly in the back. Rene. Good, a mom who told an officer, and I quote, I'm not mad at you, end quote was shot dead just moments after. And this pattern of violence and lawlessness we've seen, of course, all over the country.
▶ 0:27:16Now, our committee and democrats have documented over 590 cases of suspected misconduct by president trump and christie noem's immigration and enforcement agents across the country, not just in minnesota. There's been 240 incidents of violence or concerning use of force, and 181 have involved united states citizens.
▶ 0:27:39Now, we've heard testimony that isis training has actually completely changed and now actually teaches our agents to violate the rights of american citizens. That's what we're teaching now to federal agents. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Dhs and ice are out of control and must be held accountable by the congress. Now, oversight democrats have been partnering to hold hearings to investigate these abuses, to hold dhs secretary accountable.
▶ 0:28:08Stephen miller, greg bovino and make no mistake, this is donald trump's personal police and military force he is unleashing on american streets. Now, the hearing that we have today is going to build on those investigations. Operation metro surge, which we're going to hear a lot about today.
▶ 0:28:26This is really about not just what's happening in minnesota through that operation, but the ways that president trump has waged his own personal war on minnesota instead of improving systems. Of course, we're talking about fraud, according to our republican colleagues. But instead of improving systems to prevent future fraud, trump's also cut off $259 million in medicaid funding to the state.
▶ 0:28:52He's threatened federal food aid for 600,000 minnesotans, including 200,000 kids. President trump has tried to use fraud as his excuse for all of this, but what's really happening is violence, terror, death, destruction and ripping away services from those that need it. You don't fight fraud by issuing presidential pardons to fraudsters. You don't fight fraud from ripping away food assistance to kids.
▶ 0:29:20Now, since his reelection, trump has also given out jail free cards to dozens of actual real fraudsters who could get out of repaying their victims more than $1 billion. Where is the fraud hearing on those abuses? And we know that you just don't fight fraud by singling out states led by democrats and ignoring states led by republicans. Every single person here, and I know the governor and the attorney general believe this as well. We all want to fight fraud, waste and abuse in government.
▶ 0:29:52Oklahoma, by the way, and alabama lead the nation in snap fraud in texas and florida. A russian citizen has been arrested for submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent claims and funneling millions overseas. Where are those hearings? Where is the governor of oklahoma or alabama or texas or florida?
▶ 0:30:10I also want to note this because of the trump administration's illegal and unconstitutional actions, we know there are now 31 of 64, 31 of 64 lawyers at the minnesota U.S. attorney's office that have left. That is stunning. The lead attorney responsible for pursuing these fraud cases has left because the trump administration ordered them of. We know to investigate renee goode's widow, not her killer.
▶ 0:30:39They were ordered to investigate renee goode's widow, not her killer. If the president cared at all about fraud, we would not have all of these officers with all this illegal behavior on minnesota streets. And we should remember that the trump administration tried to use operation metro surge as leverage to seize minnesota's voter rolls. The trump administration was never serious about addressing fraud in minnesota.
▶ 0:31:06Instead, they've been interested in election conspiracy theories and terrorizing kids. And they've accused the governor and attorney general of covering up fraud, only to investigate them and turn up actually no evidence. What they're trying to do is convince americans that there's a good reason for violence, for killings and for violations of the law. That's not acceptable. And we're not going to take that here today.
▶ 0:31:34I want to thank our witnesses again for being here, and I yield back. >> ranking member yields back. I'd like to welcome our witnesses. Uh, first we have tim walz, governor of state of minnesota. Governor walz first took office in january of 2019. Next we have keith ellison, attorney general of the state of minnesota. Attorney general ellison also first took office in january 2019. Finally, we have reverend mariah furnace tolbert, senior pastor, hamlin church united methodist.
▶ 0:32:04Thank you all so much for joining us today, and we look forward to your testimony. Pursuant to committee rule nine, g. The witnesses will please stand and raise the right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Let the record show that the witness has answered the affirmative. And please take a seat. We appreciate you being here today and look forward to your testimony.
▶ 0:32:32Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statement. They will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statements to five minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it's on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, the light will turn yellow when the red light comes on. Your five minutes have expired and we would ask that you please wrap up. I now recognize governor walz for his opening statement. Governor.
▶ 0:32:59>> thank you, chairman comer, ranking member garcia, members of the committee, I'm proud to be here today as the governor of the great state of minnesota. Under my leadership, minnesota has dedicated its resources to ensuring that all minnesotans can live dignified and full lives with access to top notch public schools, quality health care, good jobs. Thanks to these initiatives, minnesota has been ranked as one of the best states to raise a family in, one of the best states to find a job in, and one of the best states to live in. Although minnesota's programs have overwhelmingly achieved their intended purposes, they're not immune from fraud.
▶ 0:33:29I'll be the first to acknowledge that. But let me be clear. In minnesota, if you defraud public programs, if you steal taxpayer money, we'll find you, we'll prosecute you, we'll convict you, and we'll throw you in jail. In this anti-fraud mission, we keep good company across the country. Our nation's governors work hard every single day to combat fraud in their programs.
▶ 0:33:47But even as we confront issues similar to our sister states, the people of minnesota have been singled out and targeted for political retribution at an unparalleled scale, including blocking medicaid reimbursements to our state. Just last week, under the guise of combating fraud, the federal government has flooded minnesota with masked, untrained and unaccountable agents who are wreaking havoc in our communities on the streets of minnesota, federal agents have entered U.S. citizens homes who have committed no crimes.
▶ 0:34:15They have violated the constitutional rights of our citizens. They have ignored court orders. They have shot first and ask questions later. Time and again, they have gaslit us by demanding that we ignore what we see before our very eyes. But the american people are not so easily fooled.
▶ 0:34:32The image of this brutal campaign are seared into our collective memory, the fragile innocence of the five year old boy in a bunny hat being led away from his family, the maddening cruelty of a barely clothed man, a us citizen being dragged from his house in the dead of winter. The sheer devastation we feel of seeing the lifeless bodies of renee, good, and alex.
▶ 0:34:52Pretty long after the federal government's agents of chaos pack up and leave, and long after the fraudsters in whose name this hearing was supposedly called, are prosecuted and imprisoned, the good people of minnesota will still be picking up the pieces from these senseless acts of cruelty and violence. As we forge ahead, I hope minnesotans will remain grounded in a sense of justice, a sense of right and wrong. We know that the way to deter crime is to pursue offenders, regardless of who they are, not to pardon them because of who they know.
▶ 0:35:19We understand that a key to keeping our people safe is to allow prosecutors to uphold the law, not to punish them for refusing to violate it. And we appreciate that public trust comes from building common sense anti-fraud safeguards into our programs, not by tearing down established norms. I've invited here today to talk about how minnesota pursues these objectives, and I hope we can have a conversation about how to strengthen program integrity in every state in the nation.
▶ 0:35:45A single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar we can't tolerate. That's why, as governor, I have taken decisive action. I appointed a head of program integrity to oversee statewide anti-fraud efforts. I created the position of inspector general at the minnesota department of education at the department of human services. I ordered data driven reviews and, where appropriate, corrective action against providers. I've directed my administration to work with our partners in state, federal, and tribal law enforcement to make sure that fraudsters go to jail.
▶ 0:36:15Our cooperation with the fbi and the department of justice have led to serious criminal charges for over 75 individuals, most importantly, year in and year out. And long before minnesota programs were featured on right wing social media. I've worked with the minnesota legislature to give state agencies the authority they need to take action based on red flags when they discover them. There's undoubtedly more to do. We'll continue to do the important work of combating fraud, but as we do so, we're going to remain true to minnesota principles.
▶ 0:36:46We will feed our hungry children. We will help the poor afford health care. We will assist people with disabilities while also keeping fraud in check. We'll demonstrate our decency, our integrity, and never yield to political scapegoating, particularly of our most vulnerable communities. In these extraordinarily trying times, the people of minnesota have come together to show the world their values. I'm proud and honored to be their governor, and I look forward to today's questions.
▶ 0:37:16>> thank you. Governor. We now recognize attorney general ellison. >> thank you, chairman comer. And thank you, ranking member garcia. And thank you to all the members of the committee. My name is keith ellison, and I have the honor of serving as minnesota's attorney general. You have invited me here today to speak about the topic. I feel very strongly about fraud enforcement.
▶ 0:37:41I look forward to discussing the contributions of my office and the contributions we've made to fighting fraud in our state. Fraud in government programs is reprehensible. It takes food from the tables of the hungry. It takes shelter from those without it. I have worked every day as attorney general to hold fraudsters accountable, and I'm proud of our record.
▶ 0:38:02We've won 300 medicaid fraud convictions, more than any other state of similar size, and recovered over $80 million for minnesota taxpayers. We've returned tens of millions of dollars to victims of consumer fraud in minnesota. Since 2019, our charities division has resolved over 50 investigations, investigations and dissolved 17 sham nonprofits.
▶ 0:38:27It's important to note that under minnesota law, my office has limited jurisdiction over criminal matters. The only kind of criminal case we can prosecute all on our own is medicaid fraud. Any other kind of criminal case must be referred to us in by county attorneys. Still, we've punched above our weight where we do have criminal jurisdiction. I'm proud of that.
▶ 0:38:54Over the past six years, my medicaid fraud control unit has ranked fifth in the nation in fraud convictions. Last week, I urged the state legislators to pass a bipartisan medical assistance protection act, which would give us additional resources to prosecute medicaid fraudsters where fraud occurs outside of our jurisdiction. My office has and will continue assisting our local and federal partners when our help is requested.
▶ 0:39:23We support our 87 county attorneys in minnesota, and we regularly coordinate with federal investigators, investigators, and prosecutors to combat fraud. That type of collaboration between enforcers at all levels of the government is essential in this fight. And that is why, if we are to discuss law enforcement efforts in minnesota, we cannot ignore the devastating effects of operation metro surge.
▶ 0:39:50As you know, the trump administration, on the pretext of fighting fraud, unleashed over 3000 masked armed agents on the streets of minnesota. And as a result, two us citizens were killed by federal agents renee good and alex preddie. Federal law enforcement still refuses to cooperate with us in investigating their deaths. Young, innocent children were detained and traumatized.
▶ 0:40:21Schools and businesses were forced to close, costing countless families their jobs, their livelihoods, their education, and costing our state hundreds of millions of dollars in economic damage. Operation metro surge did nothing to address fraud in our state.
▶ 0:40:38It harmed our economy, it scarred our people, and it dealt a devastating blow to fraud enforcement in minnesota as a result of metro surge, federal prosecutors efforts to fight fraud in minnesota have suffered a major setback in the us attorney's office. Six high ranking attorneys resigned because of the department of justice, pressured them to investigate renee good's grieving widow.
▶ 0:41:08Eight more prosecutors then followed. The remaining staff should be spending their time prosecuting fraudsters and criminals. Instead, they are drowning in immigration related petitions resulting from operation metro surge. Mister chair, members of the committee I. We cannot combat fraud without consistent messaging and support from our political leaders, all sides, republicans and democrats.
▶ 0:41:37The federal government and the states must work together if we are going to win the fight against those who would steal from the public, we need our leaders to unite in that effort, not to use it as a political tool to score political points. I stand ready and willing to work with the members of this committee to advance the cause of holding fraudsters accountable. Now, more than ever, we need coordinated cooperative engagement across law enforcement if we are to achieve our goals.
▶ 0:42:06I look forward to your questions. >> thank you. General. Uh, now I recognize reverend tolbert for her opening statement. >> chairman. Ranking members, member of the members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today. I am the reverend mariah tolbert and I serve as senior pastor at hamlin church united methodist in saint paul, minnesota.
▶ 0:42:30I come before you today in my personal capacity as a pastor, as a citizen, as a mother, an ordinary minnesotan who has witnessed up close the fear and harm that operation metro surge has inflicted on our state. The hearing today is about fraud in minnesota, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has brought to the people of minnesota.
▶ 0:42:59This fraud has been used as a rationale for deploying 3000 federal immigration enforcement agents into our state in operations that target the most vulnerable among us, but are indiscriminately impacting all of us. Let me tell you about what this looks like, where I live in my church, members have been afraid to come to worship and have even postponed funerals.
▶ 0:43:24An elderly hmong man in our city, a us citizen, was taken from his home in the freezing cold, wearing only his underwear and a blanket. Ice vehicles drive recklessly through our neighborhoods in packs of 4 to 6, stopping people of color for proof of citizenship, including a local police officer in saint paul public schools, where my three daughters attend, nearly a quarter of students enrolled in distance learning because families were too afraid to
▶ 0:43:55Leave their homes. My eight year old struggles to sleep at night because she is afraid ice agents might break into our house. At local elementary schools in minnesota and across the country, students are practicing drills for what to do if ice is near their school. Let that sit with you.
▶ 0:44:16American children are now practicing two kinds of drills at school, one for an active shooter and one to protect themselves from their own government. That is not security. That is a nation failing its children. This is happening to all of our neighbors in minnesota.
▶ 0:44:39Every minnesotan has stories that will stay with you, from hearing of someone hiding in a walk in cooler, or the back room when ice stormed into their workplace, to friends and family members being followed when dropping off their children at daycare in minnesota. We love our neighbors. We care for one another.
▶ 0:44:59And because we believe that every person bears the image of god, we've built systems that reflect that belief free meals for all children, health care for families who need it, schools where every kid belongs. That's what love of neighbor looks like in action. This administration has targeted minnesota because we live out our values of loving our neighbors. These tactics aimed at undermining those values have not succeeded.
▶ 0:45:29When unidentified masked agents appeared on our streets, minnesotans put on their own uniforms and it said neighbor motivated by faith and conscience. We bought groceries for families in hiding. We paid rent. We drove children to school. We stood vigil at mosques. We served as constitutional observers. We pledged to care for children. If parents were detained. We sang, we marched, we prayed.
▶ 0:45:57As a pastor, I say to you, if you feel even a flicker of discomfort hearing these stories, pay attention to it. If you hear about children like liam ramos, if you saw the videos of the murders of alex and renee, good.
▶ 0:46:17If you know of workers arrested in the very restaurants where they serve federal agents their meals, if you understand that citizens and legal residents have been wrongfully detained and something in you tightens, that is not partizanship. That is conscience. In my faith tradition, we call that the still, quiet voice, the voice of god. It's not too late to listen, to change our minds, our hearts and our policies.
▶ 0:46:47To the members of this committee and our leaders across government, the question I leave with you is simple what are you willing to do about it? Your silence has a cost, and it is being paid right now by children who cannot sleep, families who cannot grieve, and communities that are hollowed out to americans across the country and those watching from home, and particularly to the families still too afraid to leave their houses.
▶ 0:47:14There are more people fighting for you than you know. Jesus teaches us in matthew 25, whatever you do for the least of these, you do unto me. History will tell its story about us, but long before then our own souls will know whether we stood with them or turned away. No nation can build a true future on the terror of its own people. Security built on fear.
▶ 0:47:44Security will shatter the first time it is tested. Only a community that chooses love of neighbor over fear will endure, and that is still within our power to become. Thank you for allowing me to share our story. I am deeply proud to be a minnesotan. >> thank you.
▶ 0:48:03With that objection, majority whip tom emmer from minnesota and representative mccollum of also of minnesota are waved on to the committee for the purpose of questioning witnesses at today's committee hearing. Without objection, so ordered. I now. Okay. I'd like to recognize representative mccollum for a book. >> thank you, mister chair.
▶ 0:48:28Uh, I would like to, for the record, have a unanimous request put in with the statement. >> thank you. Without objection. So ordered. Uh, we'll now begin our questions. And chair recognizes the chairman of the house judiciary committee, Mr. jordan from ohio. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Governor, why didn't you tell the truth? Why didn't you just tell the truth about the feeding our future program? This program, my understanding, received $3 million.
▶ 0:48:53The first year, within a couple years was getting $200 million of taxpayer money. Whistleblowers raised concerns as the chairman said auditors raised concerns. Everybody raised concerns. March 30th, 2021. The payments are stopped and a little over a month later, the payments are restarted. Why didn't you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? >> well, chairman, we we did tell you.
▶ 0:49:22And feeding our future grew because of the pandemic. >> and asked that question, I said, why didn't you tell the truth about why you restarted the payments? The payments stopped because there were concerns obviously wouldn't stop the payments. Then there restarted a month later. What was the reason for restarting the payments? >> my understanding was the the agency believed that the court had required them to make those payments. >> and that was false, wasn't it? >> you I. >> think that you said that, didn't you?
▶ 0:49:50I that's the reason you said the reason you restarted because the court ordered you to do so. Is that right? >> I don't believe that is settled yet. Uh, to the best of my knowledge. >> well, I think it is because the court did something that I just don't, I, I don't know if I've ever seen it. They issued a statement saying you were wrong and what you were saying. This is from the court. It says feeding our future versus minnesota department of education, correcting reports and statements by governor tim walz concerning orders issued by the court.
▶ 0:50:20Here's what the judge says. Governor tim walz told the media that the minnesota department of education attempted in payments to f-off because of possible fraud, but that judge guzman guzman ordered payments to continue in april 2021. Next sentence. That is false. So you said something wasn't true.
▶ 0:50:38He further states this judge guzman, the court says this judge guthman never ordered the department of education to resume payments to feeding our future in april 2021 or at any other time. So I want to know, why didn't you tell the truth, congressman? >> the attorneys at the department of education interpreted that differently. Both of those judges are no longer on the bench. And I think that the.
▶ 0:51:03>> very first sentence, the first seven words, this is not some unnamed source talking to the new york times, it's not some anonymous source talking to whatever your minnesota star tribune or whatever your paper is. This is the court speaking first sentence, first seven words due to inaccurate statements by the governor, ramsey county district court judge has issued and authorized that this following news release. That's pretty straightforward. So the court's lying.
▶ 0:51:36>> I, I can't tell you, congressman, but. >> somebody's lying. Somebody's lying because you can't say the court ordered you to restart the payments. And then the court says, we didn't order you to restart the payments. So either you're lying or the court's lying. And I'm just asking you, which one is it? >> I just simply know what the attorneys at the agency believe that it was a misinterpretation. And I would note that those.
▶ 0:51:57>> payments you were trying to hide behind the court, governor, could that maybe be the reason why you issued the statements you did and why the court had to do something you never see done before the issue, a press statement saying you're wrong, the governor is wrong. His statement is their words, not mine. False. Could that be the reason? >> that was not the interpretation of the attorneys and and, you know, court work. You can appeal those. Congressman, as you well know I'm sure. >> they're all about politics, governor.
▶ 0:52:24>> no it's it's about taking care of our people, which minnesota does better than anyone else. >> million. The behavioral intervention program went from 3 million to 400 million in five years. The housing stabilization went from 2.6 million to 104 million. The integrated community supports went from 4.6 million to 100 and 70,000,000 in 3 years. This is unbelievable what's happening. And you're trying to hide behind some pretend court order. Some court order that didn't exist. Governor. Who's casey? Megan. >> I don't know who casey megan is. >> I'll tell you. Mr.
▶ 0:52:52Megan is a somali american and a fraud investigator. And the guy beside u.s office in the attorney general's office. And here's what he said. There was a perception that forcefully tackling this issue might cause political backlash among the somali community, which is a core voting bloc. Did that have anything to do with this whole fraud scheme that went on in your state, governor? >> it did not. Congressman. >> did not. So you're now you're saying, Mr. casey, megan is lying, is lying to. >> I'm not. >> you're the only one telling the truth in the whole state. Mr.
▶ 0:53:20Megan, who's a fraud investigator at the attorney general's office, says it's politics. The court said. >> I couldn't speak for Mr. megan. You asked me a question. >> I know I'm asking. >> I said no when you asked me the question. >> I'm saying and I'm saying casey. Megan said just the opposite. >> I don't. >> know the courts wrong in casey. Megan is wrong. You're the only guy, right? How many people have been indicted in your state right now? Do you know, governor? >> I don't have those numbers with me. >> you don't? 98 people been indicted. You happen to know how many are somali american?
▶ 0:53:49>> I don't we don't investigate or prosecute people based on ethnicity, religion. >> do I? We shouldn't do that. But I'll. But Mr. megan is a somali american who just said that the court one of the one of the concerns was this a core voting block? I just want to know if you know how many the 98 people have been indicted in your state are somali. >> I don't their ethnicity is not my concern. >> 85% of the people indicted were somali american key voting bloc. And I think that what drove this whole thing is that I yield back. >> gentleman yields back before I recognize the ranking member. It's my understanding, Mr.
▶ 0:54:20Biggs. You seek recognition? Yes. >> Mr. chairman, I have some uses. Um, here you go. Biden. Clemency for convicted fraudsters met with outrage. Next one. Biden's clemency and pardon list includes former elected officials. Next one, the drug dealers, thieves and gang leaders granted clemency by joe biden. Next one north dakota judge blasts biden for sending fraudsters free. Next one victim shocked after biden grants clemency to kids for cash. Who has next one?
▶ 0:54:49Who has joe biden? Pardon? Thank you. Mr. >> without objection. So ordered chair now recognizes ranking member garcia from california. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And I want to thank, of course, our witnesses again for being here. Now, of course, over the past two months, countless brave minnesotans have shared their stories of heartbreak and violence and terror, not just with us in this committee, but with across. With folks across the country. Peaceful protesters are being shot in the streets.
▶ 0:55:15Children have snatched, been snatched from their schools, people dragged from their cars and tackled at work. And we know that parents, of course, have been missing work and children have been missing school. Now, reverend, I want the country to really understand the effects on kids. Are you seeing families who can't go to work, who can't go grocery shopping, and who can't take their kids to school, or the library or the park because they're terrified to leave their home. Are you seeing that? >> yes. That's what we are seeing in minnesota.
▶ 0:55:46>> and this includes, of course, us citizens. Right. We're talking about also families, us citizen families and kids who are united states citizens. Is that is that correct? >> yes. People who are us citizens and legal residents. >> well thank you. I want to just show this image here. This is an image of some kids, including, by the way, one of liam ramos's classmates. These are kids that are being held at us detention centers and detention facilities.
▶ 0:56:10Now, reverend, when children hear about thousands of kids being detained, reportedly almost 4000, that must be terrifying. Is that correct? >> that is absolutely terrifying for children to hear these stories and to fear for that experience. >> and would you say that kids are scared at their school. >> kids are scared at their schools. >> parents are scared of what's going to happen to their children. Would you say that is correct also? >> that is correct. >> well thank you.
▶ 0:56:38Now we're discussing the violence and brutality that's happened. And I want to show another image that's kind of difficult, I think, to to see. But I think it's important for the american public to continue to see it. Now, this is the driver's seat of rene goode's car seat after an ice agent shot her dead. Now, reverend tolbert, our families in your community afraid that this sort of horrific image could happen to them next. >> yes. >> our kids scared that this type of horrific image could happen to one of their parents.
▶ 0:57:09>> kids like my own kids, like the kids in my church are afraid that that could happen to their parents when they speak out. >> and let's remember that an ice agent specifically told the protester, have you all not learned from the past couple of days? This is just two days after renee goode was shot. That is being told to people on the ground in minneapolis and across the country, across minnesota. And it's not acceptable. We should be clear here. This violence does not make us safer.
▶ 0:57:37It does not address fraud, waste and abuse. It doesn't help families with health care, does not grow or build small businesses. And it certainly, as we continue to discuss, is not preventing the kind of fraud that republicans are discussing here today. Now, governor, can you walk us through specifically how operation metro surge affected minnesota's ability to investigate actual fraud? >> well, thank you, congressman.
▶ 0:58:05Well, first of all, as I've said, we've been partners with the federal, uh, our federal partners, whether that be the fbi or be the us attorney's office, which I will note was one of the premier us attorney's office, regardless of who they were appointed by, uh, right now, those lead investigators and basically that whole team has left that office. They've not been filled back in. The us attorney himself was in front of a federal judge yesterday, um, on contempt issues of the that office not working together.
▶ 0:58:35Now, look, we're going to prosecute as we have every single person that's involved in fraud, but we can't do it alone. The attorney general's office is doing everything they can. He has consistently come and asked the legislature for for more money, more more of the investigators he needs. But right now is the backlog at the us attorney's office is being challenged by the federal courts. Uh, it makes it more difficult for us to get those cases over to them. But the good news is, the minnesota bureau of criminal apprehension, uh, is continuing to do those. We got a conviction this week.
▶ 0:59:06Uh, those are things that will continue on. And while we need to put in all the safeguards, we need to. As you heard, the attorney general's opening statement, if we partner together in this, our chance of defeating this fraud is is that much higher. But right now, um, it's stymied. There's no investigators over. There's no us attorneys. The fbi has been decimated. It's very difficult. >> and that that right there, the american public needs to hear.
▶ 0:59:32I mean, it's completely outrageous what's happened to those that are actually trying to take on fraud in minnesota and across the country? Those those offices have been decimated and there's no support, not acceptable. And and, governor, finally, there appears to be actually no evidence that ice and dhs reign of terror in minnesota that continues has actually prevented any fraud. Is that your assessment, sir? >> that's correct.
▶ 1:00:00What you saw on the streets didn't do anything to it. And we've we've actively asked if you have folks who can help us. If you have folks who are good at at the forensics, if you're that can help us do this, we want you there, as we have, uh, for the last seven years that I've been governor, we partnered together and convicted people. >> thank you. And with that, I also, just for the record, want to introduce our report as well. Today, the democratic staff released it as well. As far as it relates to this hearing and operation metro surge. So thank you, Mr. chairman. >> without objection.
▶ 1:00:29So ordered chair now recognizes our majority whip, representative emmer from minnesota. >> thank you, chairman comer. And actually, thank you, governor walz and attorney general ellison, for appearing before the committee today. A gentleman, let's see if we can agree on at least one thing today. Today's hearing is titled oversight of fraud and misuse of federal funds in minnesota. Can we agree that this fraud is a serious thing, governor walz, yes or no? Can we agree on that? >> yes. Any fraud is serious. >> thank you.
▶ 1:00:57Because it's interesting, uh, that you and I agree that it's serious thing, considering the man sitting next to you, your attorney general, keith ellison, uh, just two months ago, said, quote, this is a political matter. This is not a serious thing. End quote. Attorney general ellison, is there an organized crime ring operating in minnesota? I'll answer for you, sir. Governor walz believes there is an active crime ring in our state.
▶ 1:01:27In october, the governor said, quote, we've got an organized crime ring in minnesota. I think it's been going on for years. Moving on, Mr. ellison. I, along with millions of americans, have grave concerns over your alleged relationships with somali fraudsters who have since been charged and convicted of federal crimes. I'm sure you are aware that over 90% of the defendants charged in the feeding our future fraud case are of somali descent.
▶ 1:01:55In fact, you have personal knowledge of these people. There's a 54 minute audiotape of your meeting with these criminals in december of 2021. And during your meeting, they complained to you about increased scrutiny of their nonprofits, and you told them, quote, of course, I'm here to help. End quote, it's on the internet. Anyone can listen to you say that.
▶ 1:02:19Since then, you claim you were not aware of their crimes in the $250 million feeding our future scheme, the largest pandemic fraud case in the nation. But just weeks after your december 2021 meeting, the fbi executed search warrants that you never would have requested in the feeding our future fraud investigation. Now, let's fast forward to september of 2022, ten months after you met with the somali fraudsters.
▶ 1:02:47Your office issued a press release stating, quote, minnesota attorney general keith ellison and his office have been deeply involved for two years in holding feeding our future accountable. End quote. So according to your office, sir, you have been deeply involved in the feeding our future case since september of 2020.
▶ 1:03:07That actually sounds like you are saying that at the time of your infamous meeting with the somali fraudsters, you were already aware of the allegations of fraud. When you had this meeting in december 2021, did you? No, sir. About the long running fbi investigation into feeding our future, yes or no. >> Mr. chairman? Uh, Mr. representative emmer. >> reclaiming my time. When did you personally become aware of the fbi investigation?
▶ 1:03:36That's all I'm asking. >> representative emmer. As you know, I have addressed this issue many times. >> all right. Reclaiming my time in that same meeting with the fraudsters. Uh, Mr. attorney general, you took aim at the minnesota department of education. You stated that the minnesota department of education had fought the nonprofit in very disgusting ways, in a very racist, xenophobic and islamophobic manner.
▶ 1:04:03You actually asked for the names of all these folks who are just hung up and offered to call the minnesota department of education, to, quote, demand some explanations. We now know that when you made these comments, the biden doj was working with the minnesota department of education and that their work exposed the massive fraud ring pretty bad. Look for you, sir.
▶ 1:04:24Either you were oblivious to what was going on under your nose, or worse, you were trying to obstruct the work of the minnesota department of education. So I can see the time is getting short. I Mr. chairman, we are left with two questions. One, what did governor walz and keith ellison know about the fraud? And two, when did they actually know it?
▶ 1:04:50I would suggest that if they do not give direct and truthful answers to both these questions at this hearing, then they both need to be put under oath in a deposition. This is a serious thing, Mr. attorney general. You are the only one who thinks protecting taxpayer dollars is political. Mr. ellison, my concern is that you actively obstructed this investigation in exchange for campaign donations, a quid pro quo.
▶ 1:05:16If these concerns are proven to be true, you should be disbarred and you should go to jail. I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes miss norton from washington, D.C. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, it is critical that the federal government support people who need assistance with food, housing and health care.
▶ 1:05:44Unfortunately, as long as the government provides these services, there will be bad actors trying to take advantage of them. We need to prevent and identify these fraudsters so that social services can reach those who need them.
▶ 1:06:03However, we cannot recklessly deny help to many people who need services because of a few bad actors. Uh, my republican colleagues have now held two hearings to talk about fraud in one single state.
▶ 1:06:26But they have completely ignored the fact that the trump administration is the most corrupt administration in history. If republicans really cared about fraud, abuse, and holding criminals accountable, they would call them out. Donald trump for for firing 17 inspectors general.
▶ 1:06:53These internal watchdogs are the front line of rooting out waste, fraud and abuse of federal agencies.
▶ 1:07:10The trump administration has also retaliated against whistleblowers, whistleblowers and allowed administration officials to engage in serious conflicts of interest that often cross the line into out fraud, outright corruption.
▶ 1:07:31We need inspectors general whistleblower protections and rules for hibiting conflicts of interest to protect federal programs and make sure that people can get the services they need. Across the country, americans are struggling to afford their health care premiums and groceries.
▶ 1:08:00The trump administration should be strengthening the social safety net, not cutting the safeguards that catch the fraudsters are taking advantage of it. And I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. I'll now recognize myself for five minutes. Governor walz and attorney general ellison, my questions are going to be simple and direct.
▶ 1:08:25Governor walz, you were inaugurated as governor on january 17th, 2019 and have served in that role through two terms ever since. Correct? >> that's correct. Mister chairman. >> during the time period 2019 and 2020, while you were serving as governor, isn't it true that state auditors and officials raised concerns about fraud and vulnerabilities in programs overseen by your administration? >> I can't confirm that, but I'm assuming we have always ongoing. >> that as a yes.
▶ 1:08:51Those warnings were communicated to senior officials in your administration, including yourself. Correct? >> I can't speak if it was. >> I think the correct answer to that would also be yes. Despite those warnings, you did not order a broad stop payment or suspension of payment in any program at that time. Correct. >> we're not going to stop payments of feed children until we have the proof that things happened. In 2019, we did start taking action. I went to the legislature, that legislature.
▶ 1:09:20>> governor waltz, when fraud concerns were raised early in your tenure in the child care assistance program, did your administration stop payments at that time? >> the the child care assistance program? >> and the answer is is no. When fraud concerns were raised. >> like me to answer or not. >> well, it's yes or no. >> I want you to help. >> you've already answered the question. You said you didn't ever stop payments. And that's what the problem is. And that's what the democrats are complaining about. Oh my gosh, trump stopped payments.
▶ 1:09:49Well my god you you lost billions to fraud in minnesota. That's that's just hearings. >> Mr. chairman. >> you didn't stop payments because you didn't want to rock the boat. And and when fraud concerns were. >> raised. >> when fraud concerns were raised in medicaid, home and community based services, did your administration stop payments? No, you did not. When fraud concerns were raised in non-emergency medical transportation, did your administration stop payments?
▶ 1:10:17>> chairman, if I could mention what a stop payment meant by what the administration did last week is 400,000 children without health care, are you stopping payment? If one person. We believe. >> that's your fault and the attorney general's fault because you you do nothing about fraud, even though everyone in america sees. >> medicare error. >> rate. >> is lower than your state. >> you have been defrauded. You have not been good stewards of the taxpayer dollars. And the democrat position is, well, keep the money flowing. The american taxpayers have had enough.
▶ 1:10:46>> I don't I think that's a fair characterization. >> their taxpayer dollars are spent wisely. We all support social. >> that's not a fair characterization. >> but if you're going to waste the money to to fraudsters, then we have to stop and recalculate. >> we're not we're putting them in jail when we can. Chairman. And some of these these programs are crafted in such a way that there's a procedure to follow. And I'm with you. I $1 is too much. I don't think there's a lot of difference here. If you want to help us get at this, the question is, is it a sledgehammer? Is it a scalpel?
▶ 1:11:16I understand there's no political upside. >> let's let's get into what we've we've talked you you eventually did pass payments in certain programs. But that wasn't until late 2025 after the federal government stepped in. Is that correct? >> I don't I don't think that's a fair characterization of stepped in. We've been partners in this and working on them. >> but let's let's move on. And that that decision occurred only after large scale fraud had already taken place for years.
▶ 1:11:42Now, governor waltz, employees inside state agencies raised concerns about fraud and improper payments for years. Is that correct? >> inside agencies. We've been prosecuting them for years. Yes. >> they have raised concern. Agencies have raised concern about fraud in minnesota. Correct. Each of those. >> yes. When they do and they're prosecuted. >> so some of those employees faced retaliation after raising those concerns. Is that correct? >> that is not correct. Chairman. Okay.
▶ 1:12:10Minnesota has strong whistleblower protections. >> attorney general ellison, you are the chief legal officer of the state of minnesota, correct? Yes. Your office advises agencies on compliance with federal and state law, correct? Yes. Retaliation against whistleblowers reporting fraud is unlawful, correct? >> that is right. >> at any point during your tenure, did you tell state agencies to stop payments due to credible fraud allegations? Yes or no? >> sir?
▶ 1:12:39We prosecuted over 300 people in the medicaid fraud area. 300 of them. >> predict is a drop in the bucket. But but you've never said to stop payments. >> that's what it's it's one of the highest rates in the country, sir. >> well, you have one of the highest rates in the country in minnesota. >> and that's not true. And my office doesn't have the authority to do a stop payment. We prosecute criminals when they're presented us by by the agency. >> so so the answer is no.
▶ 1:13:07Unfortunately, no one's ever from your office said to stop payments until we can get the fraud under control. So to summarize, you both knew about fraud risk and payments. Continued. Our investigation has shown that whistleblowers were alerted about the widespread fraud, were ignored, sidelined, and even retaliated against only after federal authorities ultimately stepped in did you take any action.
▶ 1:13:28It's not this committee's responsibility to decide guilt or or, uh, dole out punishment, but it's clear there was a massive failure of oversight and, quite frankly, a failure of leadership. One wonders whether either of you should bear some personal responsibility for the billions of dollars siphoned off by fraudsters under your noses in the state that you led. Again, this isn't for the committee to decide, but based on your answers today, an apparent failure to take any responsibility. Still, the answer to that question has become abundantly clear.
▶ 1:13:58And now, Mr. >> chair, I seek unanimous consent to enter into the record. >> all right. Before I recognize Mr. lynch. Mr. randall, you have a you say. >> thank you. Um, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. November 12th, 2025 article from pope pro publica entitled how trump has exploited pardons and clemency to reward allies and supporters, which shows president trump rewards those in his good graces.
▶ 1:14:24I also seek recognition to insert into the record a washington post article from december 19th, 2025, entitled trump's pardons wipe out payments to defrauded victims, which shows that president trump left criminals and fraudsters walk free. And I also seek unanimous consent to enter into the record. An article from may 29th, 2025 from abc news titled trump's flurry of pardons include some contributors. >> and, uh, miss miss pressley, we'll do one at a time. We'll go to Mr. lynch, then I'll recognize you. Mr.
▶ 1:14:53Lynch from massachusetts. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Governor, good to see you, my friend. Attorney general, good to see you again. Uh, reverend, thank you for your willingness to testify before the committee. I want to shift gears here a minute, and I want to focus on ice. Uh, so I was recently asked to serve as the co-chair of the fifa 26, uh, soccer tournaments, a global tournament, the largest sporting event in the world.
▶ 1:15:21And, uh, my home city of boston has been asked to to to host, uh, a lot of the games. Uh, in boston, we're going to we'll host, uh, teams from morocco, ghana, bolivia, iraq, scotland, france, england and suriname. Uh, we'll also, uh, host over 3 million foreign national visitors who are coming into boston for these tournaments.
▶ 1:15:51And, uh, we recently learned from the trump administration that ice will play a key role in the security operations during those games. So we've got all these people flying in foreign nationals, uh, a lot of different countries, south america and elsewhere.
▶ 1:16:08Uh, governor, since you've had direct and relevant experience on dealing with, uh, the metro surge and, and the security operations, uh, of ice, I was interested in getting your thoughts and your observations and any recommendations you might have to help us with, with confronting our experience, uh, what we expect to see, uh, during these games with, with ice coming in, as well as, uh,
▶ 1:16:39So many foreign visitors. >> well, I think the world saw and don't take my word for it, take professional law enforcement across minnesota and across the country. Um, the most unprofessional, aggressive, uh, force that I think you could imagine. And I was here in front of this committee and answered all your questions on june 12th, and I warned this committee what a masked group of folks turned loose in an american city could do.
▶ 1:17:08And I I'm not, if I'm not mistaken. I said someone could get killed doing this. And I just want to be very clear about this. When tom homan had to come in to clean up the mess of of secretary noem and greg bovino, secretary homan himself acknowledged minnesota follows the law. Exactly as I told you in this committee. So my advice to you, Mr.
▶ 1:17:33Lynch, is to get very public upfront commitments from these folks. While I disagree with Mr. homan's views on many things, he's at least professional enough that he pulled the leash back and pulled these folks out of minnesota after again misrepresenting the number of people they were detaining, misrepresenting before he got there. Exactly what minnesota did, and I'm just going to name it on accountability.
▶ 1:18:00The secretary of dhs, being chastised by republican senators added insult to injury to minnesota, pouring salt in the wounds of the parents of alex, priti and rene goode's family by not even apologizing or acknowledging. And if you want accountability for the one of the times, as far as I know, the attorneys know better.
▶ 1:18:21We are not being included in the investigation and the actions that were taken of a gentleman who was shot in the leg was the night that kristi noem called me a domestic terrorist and said that this gentleman was attacking federal agents. Well, now we know the story. They lied. They are now under investigation, they being the federal agents. So, look, I'm with you. I want your help on fraud. Why would I not want money to go to the programs? I care deeply about feeding people, clothing people, housing people.
▶ 1:18:51But what ice did disrupted everything that we were doing. It disrupted our federal partners, and it forced our law enforcement agencies who have worked hard to gain the public trust, to have the public believe in them. So my advice to you is, and especially when the world's coming to see this, let boston's finest lead, let the people of massachusetts lead. Let the 10th amendment stand for something and allow us to be able to do this.
▶ 1:19:20The people of minnesota will hold us accountable if they don't feel we're doing a good enough job, but to demonize and retribution against a state, in the words of the president, in the words of the vice president, have done nothing. So, Mr. lynch, um, the world should be looking forward to coming, but I would get it up front and I would make sure that boston's police department are in the lead. >> thank you. Uh, attorney general ellison, we need coordination between law enforcement agencies. It's a big job.
▶ 1:19:46What are your views on that likelihood of cooperation from ice? >> well, I hope you get the cooperation that you need. Uh, in minnesota, we don't have a good record of cooperation, which is interesting, because so many times in the past, we have had great cooperation between local federal enforcers and local state ones, and we've just worked seamlessly. Nowadays. That has all changed, and that's quite unfortunate. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. Thank you for the courtesy, gentleman. >> yields back, Mr. presley.
▶ 1:20:19>> thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter the record of february 2026. Letter from 200 state lawmakers urging congress to exercise its oversight authority and demand the administration immediately restore full child care funding that had frozen for five states. >> with that, with that objection, it's ordered, chair recognizes doctor fox from north carolina. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And I thank our witnesses for being here. Governor, you've reminded people that you were here last june.
▶ 1:20:48At that time, I reminded you that the feeding our future scam made minnesota ground zero for the largest covid 19 fraud scheme in the nation, 250 million in federal taxpayer funds were taken out of the mouths of hungry children. And as the fbi noted, they were, quote, funneled into luxury homes, cars and lavish lifestyles while families struggled. You assured me then that you wholeheartedly supported the federal government's effort to bring those responsible to justice.
▶ 1:21:18I appreciate your sentiment, but a person's actions matter more than their words. Governor walz, when did you first become aware of the fraud in feeding our future a specific date, please? >> well, congressman, it's good. It's good to see you. And having served in your job for 12 years, I can tell you my job is a little different. As governor for seven years, I take a lot of meetings. Um, I certainly don't wouldn't specifically state.
▶ 1:21:47But I think during that pandemic, I think by late 2020, we started to see, uh, the irregularities, they were flagged. And I will note that we cooperated. >> officials, state officials were aware of the fraud in early 2020. >> so you're asking when I in my office, the governor became good and I don't have a specific date. But what I would say is we provided witnesses, documents, the U.S.
▶ 1:22:13Attorney and the fbi and 79 of those people have been prosecuted going back to 2022. >> okay. Well, when I was chair of the committee on education and workforce, I issued you a subpoena in september 2024 because you and your administration were not forthcoming about how your administration, quote, failed to identify what has been described as the largest pandemic fraud in the nation. End quote, in september 2024.
▶ 1:22:41You are aware the feeding our future fraud and your administration's handling of it, correct? Yes or no? >> 2024. Yes. By that time, we had already put people in jail and had extensively investigated. >> this committee has testimony that the minnesota department of education briefed your office about the feeding our futures draft lawsuit and litigation. Hold on april 28th, 2020. That let me jog your memory. Is that correct?
▶ 1:23:13>> I can't speak specifically to that. And if it's. >> my april 2020, that means feeding our future received a total of over 200 million in federal funds. After you and your administration knew about the fraud concerns, why didn't you stop sending money to feeding our future? As soon as the fraud concerns were raised? >> congressman is following the program. We notified usda under the trump administration's first term.
▶ 1:23:40We notified them to because it's a program administered out of usda, and they were working to work through the process eventually. >> didn't you say you were fearful of political retaliation? No. >> I never said any such thing. I never said any such thing. >> well, that's what we understood. You were afraid of political retaliation.
▶ 1:24:03So given the size and scope of the feeding our futures fraud, I think you and your administration would have been on high alert looking for additional fraud in the state. But after seeing the handling of feeding our futures in his 250 million in fraud, it came as no surprise to learn that even more staggering amounts of fraud, estimated at up to $9 billion, were uncovered in the child care assistance program,
▶ 1:24:34The minnesota medicaid program, and other programs. How could you allow such massive fraud schemes in your state to get to this point? >> congresswoman, we don't we don't see anything by 9 million local press and everyone reports it about 300 million. But as I've said, if it's $1, it's too much. But we started in 2019 putting anti-fraud programs forward. After feeding our future, we started going through and making sure every program had the integrity in it that it needed. And that's why you see convictions.
▶ 1:25:04That's why you see. >> why did it take nearly seven years for you to get engaged to stop the fraud? Seven years. >> we started in 2019, congresswoman. It may it may be a surprise if you arrest someone for stealing a car. Other people are still going to try and steal cars. What we've tried to do is bring program integrity. But I'll go back to this. We're not going to shut down programs that have things that are going well in it, and we need to find that proper balance.
▶ 1:25:31And I've acknowledged that every year we're putting things in place. And inspector. >> governor walz. Governor walz, you did not do your job. You did not do your job. You did not protect taxpayer dollars. You allowed massive fraud. You and Mr. ellison allowed massive fraud to go on in the state of minnesota. And it it is unfortunate, as somebody said, that you can't be held personally responsible at this stage of the game. I yield back, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:26:02>> gentlelady yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. krishnamoorthi from illinois. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Governor wallace, you've seen firsthand the brutal, excessive force used by ice and cbp agents in minnesota. Unfortunately, we saw this the same tactics employed in chicago during operation midway blitz. I want to turn now to ice and cbp's horrific pattern of abuse. Secretary noem went to our cities, ostensibly under the guise of arresting, quote, the worst of the worst.
▶ 1:26:31But in illinois, less than 3% of those arrested during operation midway blitz had criminal histories. In minnesota, the vast majority of those detained had never been in trouble with the law. Correct? >> I believe that's correct, congressman. >> there were also more than 170 cases this year where ice and cbp detained us citizens. Us citizens should never be detained by ice, correct? >> that is correct. >> according.
▶ 1:27:01>> we all could agree on that. >> well, I hope so too. According to the chicago sun-times, federal agents have pepper sprayed children, including this one year old baby in chicago, and children should never be pepper sprayed, right. >> I would hope we could all agree on that too. They should not. >> and according to the independent, cbp agents dragged a 67 year old us citizen out of his car, breaking his ribs and causing internal bleeding.
▶ 1:27:28No person should be subjected to that kind of treatment, right? >> they should not. Congressman. >> attorney general ellison, let me turn to another topic. In president trump's second term, ice has become america's highest funded federal law enforcement agency with a budget of more than $85 billion. If ice were an army, this budget would make it the 13th largest army in the world. Let's look at where that money has gone.
▶ 1:27:53Last year, dhs spent $172 million on two private luxury jets. For secretary noem, I assume you're not aware of a stop payment on that particular payment, right? >> no, I'm not, sir. >> republican senator john kennedy yesterday grilled secretary noem about a $220 million ad campaign featuring her prominently, including on this horse in front of mount rushmore. Secretary kennedy suggested this was wasteful spending, and I agree.
▶ 1:28:21Um, I assume you'd agree with that as well, right? >> I do. >> this gross misuse of funds must end now. And secretary no must be held accountable. Not tomorrow, not next week. Now. Chicago was ground zero for for secretary noem's overreach when she launched operation midway blitz. Chicago media reported that ice and cbp agents had pepper sprayed a one year old baby shot at a pastor, harassed seniors, tased U.S.
▶ 1:28:50Citizens, and even killed a person. It's clear that midway blitz was never intended to make chicago safer. In december, ice and cbp began operation metro surge in minnesota. Over 3000 agents were sent to one state. There were military style raids at child care centers. Child children kept home from school, adults postponing medical care in minneapolis, renee good and alex preddie, both U.S. citizens, were fatally shot by federal officers.
▶ 1:29:19It's clear that operation metro surge was never intended to make minnesota safer, but this is not isolated to just illinois and minnesota. Inside detention centers across the country, the suffering continues. Detainees report physical and sexual abuse, medical neglect and pressure to self-deport. On top of that brutality, kristi noem is misusing funds to buy herself private jets and enrich her associates.
▶ 1:29:46Kristi noem is testifying in the house judiciary committee today, but she must come before this committee to explain the rampant corruption and waste within her agency. Dhs is out of control. There is no congressional oversight. I was denied entrance to to ice facilities twice in illinois. There's no accountability. Secretary noem has still not appeared before this committee, nor has she responded in a substantive manner to more than one dozen letters I've sent her.
▶ 1:30:18There are no consequences. Noem is still the leader of dhs, despite regularly breaking the law and abusing her authority. Secretary noem must answer for her wrongdoing for himy, my state of the union guest who raises his little sister after his father was coerced into self-deportation for chicagoan marimar martinez, who was shot five times.
▶ 1:30:39For my constituent evelyn, an 18 year old us citizen who was wrongfully detained by ice for rene good, alex and silverio villegas gonzalez and all the other victims of ice and cbp. For the american people. It's for all those reasons that, Mr. chairman, pursuant to clause two, k six of house rule 11, I move to subpoena kristi noem to testify before the house committee on oversight and government reform.
▶ 1:31:07This is for every family impacted by kristi noem terror campaign. They demand answers and so do I. >> a motion is made, has been made. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with today's hearing. And I want to remind everyone, I believe kristi noem is testifying in front of the homeland security committee in the house today after testifying in the senate yesterday. Chair, before I recognize Mr.
▶ 1:31:36Cloud, I believe Mr. higgins has a uc. >> Mr. Mr. chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an interview from 2020 4th december 2020 for the minnesota star tribune, with governor walz noting the federal investigation into the early intensive developmental and behavioral intervention program.
▶ 1:32:02The idb program serving autism patients since its first year of inception in 2017, growing from 1.7 million per year to over 400 million per year. Unanimous consent. >> without objection, so ordered. Chair now recognizes Mr. cloud from texas. >> thank you. Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing.
▶ 1:32:26This hearing was designed to be a hearing looking into the massive expansion of some of the social programs and the fraud that was contained therein. But, reverend, I was struck by part of your opening statement because you invoked matthew 25. And that's a scripture we see tossed around a lot, uh, up here, but often without context. And so I went and got my bible and thought we'd dig into matthew 25 for a minute. The scripture you invoked was matthew 2535 to 40. It ends with this.
▶ 1:32:55It says, then the righteous will answer him, lord, when did we see you hungry, feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? And when did we. And when did we see you a stranger, and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you? And the king will answer them, truly I say to you, to the extent that you did one of the one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did this to me. Uh, I would ask you, who's the you in that passage? >> thank you for your question.
▶ 1:33:27You meaning all of us, the followers of of christ. >> followers of christ. Right. In matthew 24 three it says, after jesus was sitting on the mount of olives, and the disciples came to him privately, and then they asked him, that began this whole chapter. Now what christ didn't say was to lobby your government. He said, if you have, you give. That's the general biblical principle here. Uh, you know, second corinthians chapter nine gives us probably the best, uh, scriptural understanding of what charity is.
▶ 1:33:57It says each of you should give what you've decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for god loves a cheerful giver. Um, would you say that taxes are under compulsion? >> I taxes are not my area of expertise, but I. >> but are they given under compulsion? Do you pay your taxes. >> as a us citizen? I pay my taxes. >> yes, because what happens if you don't?
▶ 1:34:26>> we don't have the services that we need to support our. >> what happens to you personally if you don't pay your taxes. >> you get in trouble. I would say that's under compulsion. So if we're talking about what charities I'm always amazed in, in dc, how much of we get to define our personal worth as a politician or statesman or whatever you want to call us by how much of other people's money we give away? Um, and so there's certainly a place for a social safety net, potentially.
▶ 1:34:52But the idea that that matthew 25 is kind of used as a blanket statement, as a matter of fact, the parable that he gives right before that scripture that you go into is the parable of the talents, where, uh, you see someone, uh, business owner go away and he leaves three employees in charge, and he gives them each a bit of investment and, uh, two of them turn their investment into a profit. And the one that turns it not into a profit does nothing with it, just sits on it. What does he call him?
▶ 1:35:18Your pastor, right? >> yes, I am, sir, and I don't have. >> he calls him a wicked and lazy servant. Uh, and so, you know, scripturally speaking, god expects us to do something with what he's given us. Now, uh, romans 13 talks about the purpose of government. You know, scripture is replete with there's different institutions that each have a different thing. The primary job of raising our kids and taking care of our families and the institution of the family. The government has a different one.
▶ 1:35:49It says, for the one in the authority is god's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for the rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are god's servants to bring agent of wrath on the wrongdoer. Uh, would you say that someone who commits fraud fraud is doing wrong? >> we all are against fraud, right? >> is fraud theft? Would you agree that that's theft? >> yes. >> as the eighth commandment says, thou shalt not steal.
▶ 1:36:13Would you recommend that someone in your church go into debt to give an offering in your church? >> no. >> okay, so we have a massive program of fraud that's being paid for by taxpayers. And it's not really us paying. It's really our kids and our grandkids that are paying it. Uh, and yet we continue to see this massive expansion all under the, uh, taken out of context of what charity is being defined as. Uh, you know, it's interesting.
▶ 1:36:40I find it odd that the left continues to bring up matthew 25, because at the very beginning of that, right before he goes in that scripture that we talked with, it says matthew 2532, all the nations will be gathered to him, and he will separate the people from one another as sheep and goats. He will put the sheep on his right and his goats on the left. And the king will say to those on his right, come in, you are blessed to the father. Take your inheritance to the kingdom. And those on his left he will say, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, you know.
▶ 1:37:10So, uh, I would caution those who begin to use matthew 25 to do so in the proper context, understanding that we have multiple biblical institutions and they each have a purpose and. >> context here is vast. >> Mr. chairman, I'd like to submit the entirety of matthew 25 into the record. >> without objection. >> Mr. chairman, I also have a unanimous consent item. >> what would that object does anyone object to? >> thank you. It's a huffington post. >> recognized yet. Mr. does anybody object to Mr. cloud? Without objection. So ordered now I'll recognize miss randall. >> thank you, Mr. comer.
▶ 1:37:40Um, I'd like to enter into the record an article from the huffington post yesterday. Troops being told trump's been anointed by jesus to cause armageddon in iran. >> without objection. So ordered. What we do want. Let's recognize Mr. connor. Then I'll get mister. Mister Mr. connor from california. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:38:03Governor waltz, uh, when I went to minneapolis and, uh, was at, uh, alex freddie's memorial, I was struck that, uh, by the the people there, I expected, uh, a lot of folks who were immigrants and I expected, uh, were folks who were children of immigrants who looked brown like me.
▶ 1:38:24And there at the memorial were fourth and fifth generation minnesotans, most of them white americans, talking about how they faced tyranny, how when they go to church, they were being followed by ice agents. When they go to give a meal to an immigrant, they were being followed by agents. And I, I just had so much hope for our country seeing them there.
▶ 1:38:53And I want to thank minnesota as a californian, as someone who grew up in pennsylvania, as an american, for their character, for their courage, for what they have modeled in a multiracial democracy. And my question for you, I mean, having served as a congressman, a governor, what is it about minnesota that we can learn? What is it that leads to this kind of inclusive feeling about immigrants in our nation?
▶ 1:39:21>> well, thank you, congressman, and thanks for your work on many fronts. Um, look, I think reverend tolbert summed it up in, in getting at the heart of this, it's about the neighborliness and the care. And, um, left to our own devices, I'm going to make the case minnesota. And by the way, I would remind folks, states have to balance their budgets. We're triple a bond rated one of the states that's ranked the highest. We have a surplus, and we also have the highest rainy day funds, one of the strongest protections. So we understand fiscal responsibility, but we also understand this caring, this neighborliness.
▶ 1:39:50People saw their neighbor. I believe our politics can change with that idea of what the next door neighbor looks like. Now, I will have to tell you, Mr. connor, I was deeply concerned last year when the vice president of the united states mentioned he can understand why people wouldn't want to live by somebody who's not like them, which seems to go against our entire ethos in minnesota.
▶ 1:40:13Whether it was the first wave of norwegian and swedish immigrants that came to minnesota, german immigrants like my family, or whether it was hmong coming after the vietnam war or somali and other east african immigrants to our country. And I think it's this sense of working together. There's a reason that we rank at the top in healthcare. We rank at the top in personal incomes. We rank near the top in homeownership, we rank near the top in happiness. Because this idea that we're all in it together and that we believe everybody should have a chance.
▶ 1:40:43So I think it's an ethos and it gets into our politics. On the secular side, I believe as an elected official that I shouldn't give a sermon, but I should attempt to live one. And one of our politicians, paul wellstone, talked about we all do better when we all do better. And that's what we do. And I know that is true to a certain degree in other states, but I see folks making the claim that, well, you wouldn't have any fraud if you just cut all these programs if you just zeroed them out. That is true.
▶ 1:41:11If we did not provide food for our children, no one would steal from that program. But there would also be a lot of hungry children. And what I'm asking for and acknowledging the accountability we need to put program integrity in. So I think it's a neighborliness. I think it's a historical point about caring for your own. And I think it's a clear understanding that your neighbor does better. You're going to do better. >> well, thank you, governor. And obviously fraud matters and budgets matter. But what really matters right now in this country are values.
▶ 1:41:39And I really appreciate your sharing that. Attorney general ellison, in the brief time I have, you know, I just want to be clear about somali americans, because when I was growing up as an indian american, anytime someone who was of indian origin did something wrong, every indian american was concerned, you know? And I don't think people understand that if you aren't a minority, how that makes you feel.
▶ 1:42:01I understand there were 80 or 90 people who were somali americans who were involved in this, but there are 100,000 somali americans, at least in minnesota. And statistically, from all the studies I've seen, it is just factually untrue that somali minnesotans or somali-americans commit more fraud than white americans or indian americans or other americans. And could you just speak to this because it is so dangerous, and I don't even think on the other side, people are doing that on purpose.
▶ 1:42:30But if you aren't an immigrant, if you haven't lived that or a child of immigrants, you don't know what that makes you feel. And can you talk about the somali experience in minnesota? >> you know, the reality is the somali community in minnesota has brought great things to our state. They have opened businesses, they've gotten professional degrees. They are great neighbors who volunteer and help their neighbors. They have been a benefit to our state.
▶ 1:42:59If you pick out a few people who've done wrong, sure, you can do that, but I can guarantee you you can do that in any ethnic group at all in the state of minnesota or anywhere in america. >> thank you. Thank you both. >> before I recognize Mr. higgins, I'll recognize Mr. walkinshaw for unanimous consent. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And first, I just wanted to make a quick correction. You said secretary noem is before the homeland security committee today. That's. That's not true. I'm a member of the committee. She was with us a couple months ago, but. Okay. Not scheduled.
▶ 1:43:30Uh, with that, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record of september 22nd, 2025 article from reuters titled trump aide homan accepted $50,000 in bribery sting operation, which shows the trump administration is willing to cover up blatant corruption of its officials. >> without objection. So ordered chair now recognizes Mr. higgins from louisiana. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Gentlemen. Ma'am, thank you for being here today.
▶ 1:43:55Governor, when you when you took office, this this fraud had already begun. Is that is that an accurate assessment? >> that's accurate? Uh, Mr. higgins? >> so. So what? We're trying to get our heads wrapped around here as a nation, and and and we're doing our best as a committee.
▶ 1:44:24I'm quite certain on both sides to just sort of focus our attention on what needs to be focused on. You had massive fraud in the state of minnesota, and when we started looking into waste, fraud, abuse and theft across the country, minnesota surfaced as as a wow moment for for the
▶ 1:44:55Entire country. So naturally, you know, we look as a citizenry to, well, who's in charge there. And and my old friend governor walz is in charge. And the truth is, is fraud had begun before you, before you took office. So it's a reasonable question, governor. What you're you're noted in many interviews. I'm not going to go through them ad nauseam.
▶ 1:45:25You were aware of this level of fraud and investigations and and yet it seems like nothing was done until the trump administration, uh, reestablished itself in a second term. And we began broad investigations into waste, fraud, abuse and theft. And minnesota popped. So would you would you please. I'll just give you a minute to respond.
▶ 1:45:57Yeah. Why? Why didn't you do something sooner? I know some people are put in jail. I know they were investigations, but there was billions and billions and billions of dollars being stolen in a from a pretty concentrated demographic in your community. And this demographic is a significant political supporter for you and your party. Good sir. So I just ask you, please explain. Yeah. >> well, thank you, Mr. higgins.
▶ 1:46:28And I appreciate your question in good faith on this. First of all, the issue of billions and I'll keep saying this, $1 too many. That number got thrown around. There's nothing behind it. But I will acknowledge $1 is too much. I will also note the characterization. >> it's it's low. I would say it's low, but but continue. >> well there's nothing to support that. But look we will pursue it and assume that that's the case. We will still make the changes we need to make the characterization that nothing happened until the trump administration came in is simply not true.
▶ 1:46:55We worked with them in the first administration where usda didn't take action, and I think that's documented. The fact is, starting in 2019, I went to the legislature asking. >> you didn't pause payments, governor. >> the pausing. >> payments and the criminal investigation, which I'm running out of time. I want to jump to the way america sees this. Governor walz, respectfully, sir, is that this money just continued to flow.
▶ 1:47:21There was a high awareness of this waste, fraud, abuse and theft, like organized crime level theft. And and it it seemed to be slow rolled and nobody stopped the money from rolling in and the money's gone, been remitted overseas. Um, attorney general ellison, you stated in your opening statement that, uh, you you sort of stated that your office only has direct jurisdiction over medicaid fraud.
▶ 1:47:50Did you say that in your opening statement? Okay. Well, you seem to indicate that that you don't have, like, criminal authority, but you do, don't you? Under your own law, you have authority. If the county district attorney asks you to get involved, or if the governor asks you to get involved, then your office can take lead on any criminal investigation.
▶ 1:48:14Specifically, if you have particular, uh, staffing and capabilities within your office, because it's statewide to look into organized crime. Is that not correct? Okay.
▶ 1:48:26So you have the authority to lead your state's effort to respond to this massive fraud at the state level from within the health care realm where government money is being stolen at very, very high levels, unprecedented levels in your state. Are you leading that effort for the state of minnesota? Yeah, you're addressing it.
▶ 1:48:54Are you leading it? Are you leading the effort? >> we are leading the effort to prosecute medicaid fraud in minnesota. >> I'm not talking about medicaid fraud. Don't hide behind that. You have the authority to prosecute anything criminally that the governor asks you to. And this thing is big. I'm giving you an opportunity, sir.
▶ 1:49:17Are you leading the criminal investigative effort into this massive fraud across the board in the health care spectrum, in the state of minnesota or not? >> we are following the law and. >> you are not leading. You're not leading. I must say, Mr. chairman, that the attorney general, state of minnesota, should resign, I yield. >> thank you. Gentleman. Yields back. Uh, before I recognize Mr. frost, I want to, uh, Mr. walker, you were right.
▶ 1:49:47She's not testifying in homeland security. Kristi noem testifying in judiciary. I knew she was here somewhere today. So that was. You were right. Uh, I misstated the wrong committee chair now recognizes Mr. frost from florida. >> thank you so much, Mr. chair. And I have unanimous consent. Um, called fraud focus. Why is trump granting clemency to convicted fraudsters? >> without objection. So ordered. >> thank you all for being here.
▶ 1:50:11The whole world has witnessed unprecedented and extreme immigration enforcement tactics this year in minnesota after the murder of renee nicole good and before the murder of alex preddie, president donald trump posted on truth social that, quote, the day of reckoning in retribution is coming. Governor walz. The dictionary defines retribution as punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance, vengeance for a wrong or criminal act.
▶ 1:50:38Based on what we've seen play out in minneapolis. What is the problem with the president of the united states directing agents to carry out retribution? >> well, yeah. Thank you. And this is certainly troubling. Um, because under the guise of fraud, which we all want to tackle, uh, we were subject to, as you saw, the largest invasion of a state, um, by the federal government.
▶ 1:51:03Um, I don't know, in, in, uh, certainly any of our lifetimes. And that infliction to me, we're trying to figure it out. Look, we'll acknowledge and we're fixing it in minnesota. But I'm telling you, each year you're going to go back to your state. And if some of you think you want to be governor, you're going to deal with this. And these folks keep moving. The problem is, congressman, this was about retribution. This was about singling out minnesota. And I think I'm going to just name it.
▶ 1:51:30I think it's singling out because our state works and it provides things for people, and we care and we mind our own business and we respect our neighbors. And this retribution had nothing to do with getting the worst of the worst. We know that it had nothing to do with stopping fraud. And we were subject we being minnesotans for over ten weeks. And I want to note just before I'll give I'll yield back on this. Congressman, I think it's important to note the gentleman from illinois noted that, uh, midway blitz the damage it did to chicago.
▶ 1:51:59There were 500 agents on the ground in chicago. Kristi noem testified yesterday. There's still 650 in minnesota. It is not over. This is not ancient news. This is not looking like everybody moved on. Minnesotans are still experiencing this. >> it's bad for our communities and makes our people less safe. It's terrorizing our streets. Um, reverend, what has been happening in your community? When individuals try to record federal agents? >> thank you for your question.
▶ 1:52:27Uh, individuals who have tried to record federal agents have been told they cannot. They have been asked for, uh, taking pictures of their license plates. They have been followed. They have been subject to fear, intimidation tactics by ice agents. >> and one of the only reasons that really, the world knows about what's going on in, uh, minnesota is because of our constitution and the right to be able to record law enforcement and federal agents.
▶ 1:52:57Those videos and the videotapes have been, in part, the reason why we know what's going on. Trump administration officials have suggested that observing or identifying federal agents is, quote, doxing or, quote, assault. We know federal agents have followed observers to their homes. We know protesters have been pepper sprayed.
▶ 1:53:13We<u>%</u> know people have been violently detained who were filming them without bystanders having cameras, who know how the murders of renee, nicole, good and alex by ice agents would have been, uh, handled by this administration. They have already tried to lie about these murders, even with footage. After alex was murdered, stephen miller said he was, quote, a domestic terrorist who tried to, quote, assassinate federal law enforcement.
▶ 1:53:40Kristi noem said that he committed an act of domestic terrorism, and the president, united states, said that he was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist. Reverend, the the last thing I want to get to that I think is really important. I grew up in the church, and I used to wear one of the what would jesus do? Uh, bracelets, mainly because I used to curse a little too much when I was little. And then I would, like, snap myself when I cursed.
▶ 1:54:07Either way, nowadays I think less about what would jesus do, and I think more about what would happen to jesus, um, in this country. And I just wanted to give you a moment to talk about what you think would happen to refugees, mary and joseph as they come to our border. Would they be separated from their child? I mean, what is this look like? >> such a good point, congressman. And yes, jesus was himself a refugee, as were his parents.
▶ 1:54:33And yes, I fear that they too would have experienced the harm and cruel treatment that minnesotans have been experiencing at the hands of our government. >> what do you say to the people who hide behind the bible and wrap themselves in the flag to say that what is going on in our country right now with ice, terrorizing our communities, ripping our neighbors, ripping families apart, what would you say to people like that? >> I think again, uh, matthew 25, where are we in this moment?
▶ 1:55:05It should be on the side of the least the widow, the orphan, the the hungry, the homeless. And that as people of faith and moral conscience, uh, history will tell what side we stood on. But our actions today will show true love of neighbor. >> thank you. I yield back. >> yields back. Before I recognize miss may. Mr. grossman, I believe, has a uc. >> yeah. I'd like to submit for the record. Uh, something here. >> uh, hit the button.
▶ 1:55:34>> I'd like to submit for the record something called minnesota financial and compliance report on federally assisted programs for the year ending june 30th, 2024. >> without objection, so ordered chair now recognizes miss mace from south carolina. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for being here today. Governor walz and attorney general ellison, you have presided over one of the worst government fraud scandals in american history.
▶ 1:55:56This was money intended to feed hungry children, help kids with autism, provide food and shelter and health care to the needy, and more. You both allowed billions in these american taxpayer dollars to be pillaged and plundered by somali pirates. You knew this was happening. You chose to do nothing about it, and in some cases, you even enabled it. Attorney general ellison, you even profited from this fraud by taking campaign donations from these somalians. After pledging to help quash the investigation into them.
▶ 1:56:25I find your behavior despicable. My questions this morning, uh, my first go to governor walz. Uh, and I hope you learned some lessons from your last hearing with me on the oversight committee. Have you learned anything. >> I did that if I didn't speak up, two of my people would be dead. Congresswoman. And I warned you. >> okay, miss, uh, governor walz, uh, what is a woman? Have you learned that lesson? Do you know what a woman is?
▶ 1:56:52>> I'm the governor of minnesota, congressman, I'm not here to be your prop for your obsession. I taught middle school. >> what a woman is. You certainly can't define what fraud is. If you can't even define what a woman is. You can't define fraud. How much money was spent on autism in minnesota in 2017? Governor. >> I don't have those numbers in front of me. Congresswoman. >> did you prepare for this hearing today? Did you. >> do any I take this seriously. >> and you've seen the numbers about autism fraud in minnesota. So we're going to do some minnesota math with you today.
▶ 1:57:23Okay. Are you ready? How much money was spent on 2000 2017 for autism in minnesota? How much? >> I don't know, I wasn't the governor. >> okay. Did you not just say that you prepared for this hearing today? $1 million? Okay. A quick google search or using your ai could tell you $1 million was spent. How much money was spent on autism in minnesota in 2024? >> I don't have a number in front of me as governor. >> in 2024. >> I was, but I'm not the.
▶ 1:57:52>> okay, so your excuse before that you didn't know what 2017 autism numbers were because you were not governor, and today you can't answer the numbers about 2024 as governor. Um, and you still said you prepared for this hearing today. It's unbelievable. Uh, $343 million was spent in 2024. What percent increase is that from 1 million to 343 million. What percentage increase is that? >> I'm not here to be your prop. Go ahead and tell me. >> are you governor of minnesota or not? >> yes I am. I'm not.
▶ 1:58:23>> I'm not. Governor of. South carolina. You can sure as hell bet that I'm going to know the math. The math is 34,200% increase, an increase of 343 times what it was in this time period. Do you know the number of children in minnesota? >> I know that minnesota ranked as a top three state for children in the last. >> population in minnesota. >> 5.7 million. >> okay. Um, what is the total population of children in minnesota? >> I don't have the number in front of me right now.
▶ 1:58:53>> are you governor of minnesota? >> I know 400,000 were cut out of health care last week that you made. >> are you governor of minnesota? >> I am. >> and you don't know the number of children. I don't. >> have the specific number. It's 5.7 million. >> that's your total. >> what is your age? What is the age? Your point 0 to 5 0 to 19. >> approximately 1.2 million children in minnesota. What? Dave min governor of south carolina. Our population in south carolina is 5.5 million.
▶ 1:59:23We have approximately 1.1 million children under the age of 18, in my home state of south carolina. Okay. As governor, I expect you to know this information. Thank god you're not vice president of the united states. Do you know approximately how many children in minnesota are autistic or on the spectrum? >> no, I don't I don't have that number. >> okay, well, if you take the cdc's, roughly 1 in 36 kids are on the spectrum. We're talking about approximately 33,000 kids in south carolina. It's about 31,000 or so.
▶ 1:59:53What is do you know what this is per child spending wise in the fraud for autism? Autistic kids in minnesota? >> again, I'm not here to be your prop. Go ahead and tell us. >> this isn't is doing minnesota math a prop? This is math. We're talking about fraud. >> minnesota ranks at the top. Where does south carolina rank? >> we're talking about money. >> where does south carolina children rank? Unhealthiness. >> these are my questions for you. Doesn't go the other way around unless we're debating on the debate stage. And we're not.
▶ 2:00:22>> if you're asking questions about being governor, is asking you questions about being. >> governor of minnesota, which you can't answer. This is basic math, and you can't even answer. >> I'm not here to care. >> about kids in minnesota. >> they rank near the top in every category. My children are fed, my children are housed, my children have health. >> care services they need. >> and children have the best schools. >> you don't, Mr. chairman. I yield back, Mr. chairman. >> yields back. >> Mr. chairman. >> who's miss boebert. Yes. >> Mr. chairman. >> oh, miss mace.
▶ 2:00:50>> uh, may I may I make my two motions proceed? Okay. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the honorable pamela jo bondi to appear before the committee for a deposition regarding the department's handling of the investigation of jeffrey epstein and his associates in compliance with the epstein files transparency act. >> a motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with today's hearing. >> Mr.
▶ 2:01:18Chairman, I move that the committee issue a subpoena to the office of congressional workplace rights for the awards and settlements paid pursuant to section 41 five of the congressional accountability act prior to december 12th, 2018, with only redactions allowable for the personally identifiable information of victims, alleged victims, and witnesses. Thank you. Ma'am. >> a motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing. >> Mr. chairman, I seek unanimous consent. >> Mr. chairman, I have one thing before.
▶ 2:01:49>> chair recognizes. Ranking member. >> thank you. I know we'd just like to see Mrs. mason's motions in writing, which would be great. Okay. >> now, before I recognize miss lee, do you have miss randall? >> thank you, Mr. chair. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record of december 11th, 2025. Article from the guardian titled somalis are the scapegoat fear rises as trump targets minneapolis community, which describes xenophobic attacks. >> thank you. That objection so ordered. Chair recognizes miss lee from pennsylvania.
▶ 2:02:20>> thank you, Mr. chair. For the past few months, democrats on this committee and in the senate have been holding hearings on the unconstitutional actions of the trump administration. So we've heard, uh, from in that time, whistleblowers, industry experts and survivors of abuses of federal agents. They spoke about warrantless searches that they have been subjected to, uh, including federal agents bursting into their homes with guns. Uh, they spoke about being shot at and dragged out of their cars.
▶ 2:02:49Um, and then, you know, being made to look like they were actually the perpetrators. They spoke about federal agents use of masks and unmarked vehicles, um, and the efforts of these agents to hide their identity to escape any sort of accountability. And we heard from the brother of renee goode, who was murdered by ice agents in, uh, in minneapolis. That is what oversight looks like.
▶ 2:03:14Not two hearings on fraud in one single state, which is not even the worst instance of fraud out there, though we all here agree that we should target fraud. Republicans have dragged governor walz in again to demonize and target his state because he is a democratic governor and he is implementing democratic policies. Republicans took a legitimate investigation and, as per usual, has made it a circus.
▶ 2:03:41Now we have just a random guy lurking around childcare centers trying to get into buildings with children as the fraud vigilante. The somali community has been vilified and made to feel unsafe, and federal benefits are being cut to minnesota and other democrat led states.
▶ 2:04:01Trump and his administration also used this investigation as a justification for an immigration enforcement push that has created chaos and fueled violence, and resulted in the death of american citizens. Reverend tolbert, as a minnesotan, do you feel that these oversight hearings and the trump administration's fixation on fraud in minnesota has made anyone safer in your state? >> no, they have not. >> republicans have been touting alleged fraud and child care centers and the need to protect children.
▶ 2:04:28But since the immigration enforcement push, have kids been able to be kids? Have they felt comfortable going to school or playing out in public with each other or with their friends? >> they have not been safe. They've not been able to go to school, to be in playgrounds, to be in libraries and places you would normally expect to find them. >> are you worried about the long term impact of being surrounded by violence and uncertainty? What it could have on these children?
▶ 2:04:57>> I'm deeply concerned about that, and I know that their teachers and their parents are as well. >> you were arrested earlier this year while protesting ice agents and deportations. Why was it important for you to and other clergy members to speak out against trump's administration's actions in minnesota and elsewhere? >> thank you for your question.
▶ 2:05:16I was arrested, along with 99 other faith leaders in minnesota, many of whom could be here today, and we were compelled to action to stand on the side of the most vulnerable in our communities and those who have been, uh, facing enormous cruelty and unfair press, unfair, uh, actions on the hands of ice.
▶ 2:05:40And we needed to stand alongside them, as have many others in our faith traditions. In in history, we stand along with those that great cloud of witnesses. >> I want to thank you for for coming in today and for, of course, having the courage to stand up, uh, to the attacks against your community. This, as we can all see, was never truly about fraud.
▶ 2:06:03It is a part of a greater effort by trump and republicans to gut social services, roll back civil rights to villainize, and make others out of people who they don't want to have, and enjoy the same civil liberties and rights as others in this nation they want to strip away and have been stripping away health care and education, uh, child care funding that millions of people rely on.
▶ 2:06:29This, this investigation and these actions have only been used to harm, not to help people. And rest assured, this will not stop in minnesota, just as it didn't stop in chicago before that or la before that. This is a blatant attempt, uh, blatant authoritarian grab that the trump administration has been persistent in. It will come to all shores if we do not all take a collective stance.
▶ 2:06:52But more than that, uh, urging my colleagues in the republican caucus or conference to take up their job and their task as a co-equal branch of government, we do not serve as the lapdogs, as the cult followers of donald trump, of a president. When there are abuses or overreach. It is supposed to be us that takes a stand. And I would hope that at some point in the 119th congress, some republican with a gavel will do so. I thank you all for your time.
▶ 2:07:21And I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes Mr. donalds from florida. >> uh thank you chairman. Governor walz, when did you first receive notice of potential fraud in minnesota's social services programs? >> social service programs in general? We knew that there was issues with the cap program as early as 2012 and my first days in office, we started taking action. >> but as governor, when were you first notified? >> before I took office.
▶ 2:07:53>> all right. Governor walz, former department of human services commissioner. Tony, lori testified that you were aware in early 2019 of fraud in two department of human services administrative administered programs. Is this statement accurate? >> not that I recall. I'm not sure what he's speaking about. >> you don't remember this meeting or this notification? >> no. Not specifically, I don't. >> in march of 2019, your office of legal affairs reported 5 to 6 million in alleged child care assistance program fraud.
▶ 2:08:21In april 2019, it was also reported that the department of human services lacked proper integrity controls to control fraud. Were you aware of these reports? >> not specific reports, but because of that, my office we put forward, uh, actions to address them starting in 2019. >> is it correct that your administration was aware of the feeding our future fraud as early as of may of 2020, based upon regular discussions about program irregularities? >> I believe that's correct. With the agency, the department of education.
▶ 2:08:50And then going back to usda. >> I'm going to go back. Was your office notified of these of these fraud allegations? >> not me specifically that they're handled internally. It happens every day. >> who was notified? Governor walz. >> the the agencies do their work, the commissioners. And then if someone in my office was notified, they let me know. As governor, I make, you know, 50 decisions a day. I said, I did this job for 12 years. I make more decisions than in a day. >> governor walz. >> so someone was maybe notified.
▶ 2:09:19But the agencies are the ones that make the. >> ask the next question. We have it under sworn testimony in the oversight committee that your former chief of staff was notified directly by these various commissioners about the fraud in minnesota. >> that could be correct. >> so are you saying that your chief of staff didn't notify you? >> I'm saying I don't recall whether he did at that time or not, but we took action. So I'm assuming when we put our budgets together based on that, we put a package together for that legislative session. >> let's talk about budgets.
▶ 2:09:48Governor walz feeding our future went from $307,000 in 2018 to 190 9,000,000 in 2021. Are you aware of this increase in budgetary costs from feeding our future? >> not specifically, but I know it increased during the pandemic. >> the housing stabilization services went from $27 million in 2021 to $105 million in 2024. Are you aware of this increase governor walz. >> not specifically, but I know it increased. >> autism centers went from $24 million in 2019 to 340 2,000,000 in 2024. Are you aware of that. >> not specifically again but yes we know the budgets.
▶ 2:10:18>> integrated community supports went from 4.6 million in 2021 to 170,000,000 in 2024. Are you aware of that? >> again, not specifically on the numbers, but it's the budget. >> governor walz, you have to submit a budget to your legislature every single year. Every single year, like every governor has to do. If you're not aware of these increases, what was your. >> everyone is balanced. My budget is about 72 billion. It includes 23 agencies. >> budgets 115 billion, sir. But what were you doing if you're seeing program increases like this amid allegations of fraud in your state.
▶ 2:10:49>> action was being taken on these starting back in 2019. If it's. >> can you describe the action that was taken in 2019? >> sure. And the 2019 I'll go to the the first things that we did on child care assistance. We, uh, we lowered the standards on proof of administrative fraud disqualification. >> you lowered the standards. >> we lowered the standards for proof of administrative fraud. The standards where we had to prove it were so high it was impossible to try and do it. So we lowered what it took to show that fraud was happening. >> and what did you do with the results of lowering the standards to prove fault?
▶ 2:11:18To prove fraud? What did you do? >> put 79 people in prison. >> and but governor. >> walz. >> the fraud continued to increase. It increased under your tenure. Do you acknowledge that? >> did the numbers increase? Yes. And I tell you, when you when you catch people and prosecute them, it shows up at the fraud increase. I would tell you, congressman, but it's because you're. >> not it. >> increases doesn't mean. >> I got 50s governor. And I don't want to get into a fight with you, but let me move quickly to the lieutenant governor. Peggy flanagan is your lieutenant governor, is that correct?
▶ 2:11:49>> that is correct. >> does the lieutenant governor go on the ticket with you, or are they, um, elected by themselves on a ballot in the state of minnesota? >> it's on a ticket. Peggy flanagan essentially works for you. >> she has an independent office. She's a constitutional officer. She's on the ticket, but she is independent. As a constitutional. >> officer, you can ask for her resignation at any time. Is that correct? That's typically how it works with lieutenant governors. >> yeah, but she's a constitutional officer. I don't believe that's happened in minnesota. >> peggy flanagan is, um, there are accusations that she was intimidating whistleblowers.
▶ 2:12:18There was a meeting on april of april 12th of 2024, where she went on stage and publicly denounced whistleblowers in the state of minnesota, calling them losers in their mothers basements. Is this the type of treatment that your administration allows whistleblowers in minnesota? >> I'm not familiar. >> are you aware of any intimidation of whistleblowers in the state of minnesota?
▶ 2:12:39There are 30 whistleblowers who have given letters to this committee on the record saying that they have witnessed they have been subject to intimidation by your administration because they were trying to stop the fraud in minnesota. >> I encourage them to go to the oil a in the independent sources in minnesota that are. >> ola, you're the governor. >> no, the ola is the independent, sir. >> you're the governor. Why don't you take responsibility for what's going on in your state? >> we do take responsibility. None of those people I I'm telling you, I have. No. >> you lost billions of dollars of of american taxpayer money in the process. Governor walz.
▶ 2:13:10>> we we prosecuted these people. Congressman, I think florida has fraud. >> I would argue that the prosecutions have largely come from the federal offices as opposed to the state offices. >> you know, that we refer. >> what do you mean? That's not how it works. It's exactly how it works. >> their partners, they partner together. >> the attorney general allowed to investigate fraud and prosecute fraud in the state of minnesota without the department of justice federally. Are you allowed to do that, attorney general ellison? >> yes, we do prosecute medicaid. Yes. So we do prosecute medicaid fraud all the time. We've prosecuted over 300 people, apparently.
▶ 2:13:41>> apparently not enough because minnesota's rife with it. I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes miss randall from washington state. >> thank you, mister chair. And thank you, governor walz. Attorney general ellison and reverend tolbert, for being here to shed light on the impacts of the trump administration's harmful actions in minnesota and, frankly, to be pulled into some really ridiculous question lines, the escalation in attacks from this administration on social services programs in
▶ 2:14:12Democratically led states like minnesota on the heels of the big ugly laws, billions of dollars of medicaid cuts last summer is clearly devastating our communities. Do I believe congress has a responsibility to reduce opportunities for misuse and fraud, where we have seen evidence that it exists? Sure. That's why I introduced the federal program integrity and fraud prevention act, a bipartisan bill that would prevent individuals who have been convicted of fraud from applying for federal contracts.
▶ 2:14:42Mister chairman, if you are serious about addressing fraud, I'd love to see this committee hold a hearing on my bill, which was developed based on feedback from nonpartisan inspectors general whose entire job is overseeing the appropriate the appropriate administration of government programs. And let me remind my friends on the other side about mississippi, a state with republican leadership where over $77 million in temporary assistance for needy families funds were misused.
▶ 2:15:10One of the perpetrators of that fraud, former nfl quarterback brett favre, who received $1.1 million from the government for speeches he never made. Congressional republicans response was to invite fa to come testify before the ways and means committee about how we should strengthen oversight of federal welfare programs, because I'm sure he had some good advice about that.
▶ 2:15:38Meanwhile, my republican colleagues are villainizing entire minority populations because of the actions of a few. We have a word for that. I also have a lot of republican colleagues here who talk about being fiscally responsible and reining in federal spending. Again, I also believe we should be fiscally responsible.
▶ 2:15:57But to me, fiscal, responsibly responsible governing means that we invest in transformative universal health care that saves us money in the long term child care policies that give the budget back $7 on the dollar spent in long term costs for the children who benefit, policies that will actually save our country money in the long run and contribute
▶ 2:16:27To strong society and strong economy. Not slashing social services, not defunding hospitals, not eliminating child care programs. Governor walz, why do you think the trump administration is so obsessed with fraud in minnesota, when its own agencies have found other states with even worse problems? >> well, it's a question we're all asking, congresswoman, and I'd like to say and thank you for this. I just want to make sure I go on record.
▶ 2:16:57Chairman coleman condemning, uh, the slurs towards my somali community that the gentlewoman from south carolina made. Thank you. Uh, look, congressman, I don't know. I, I think it's been pretty clear the president does not like me personally. Um, I think he continues to tell lies about our electoral system, claiming that he's won all three times when he lost all three times. Um, I think he has people around him who were trying to find quotas around immigration, and they saw a perfect storm, if you will.
▶ 2:17:26That included some somali folks and a whole lot. You know, we're if we're going to condemn folks, there's no somali folks in the epstein files, things like that. We know. But I don't know. It's an obsession. And I come back to it again. I think it's because we are so ideologically opposed to making children go hungry. People go unhoused. We invest in education, we invest in research, and we believe everybody has a place. And so I think it's just personal about how we do business.
▶ 2:17:56>> thank you so much. I could not agree more. Um, there are also reports that as many as 50 prosecutors in the us attorney's office for minnesota have quit in the last 12 months. They used to have 70 prosecutors. Now some reports say they have as few as 17. Many of those who left include the very same prosecutors who were prosecuting the feeding our futures fraudsters. How has this flight impacted your efforts to fight fraud in minnesota?
▶ 2:18:26>> well, it's made it very difficult, I think, for all of my friends on the republican side, we welcomed the republican folks, the attorneys over at the us attorney's office who were good at helping us as partners. We turned this over to them. They prosecuted. They put people in jail. They're not there now. There's nobody doing this. And I will remind this committee, the us attorney was in front of a federal judge yesterday being threatened with jail because of what's going on in that office.
▶ 2:18:51And from my perspective, who's prosecuting trafficking, drugs, murder and fraud. And so we want them. If you could do anything, chairman, call the president and tell him to put some us attorneys over there to prosecute fraud. I'll I'll sign on with you. >> thank you, governor, and thank you, Mr. chair. >> chair now recognizes chairman burchett from tennessee. >> say that with disrespect in your voice, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:19:17Um, governor, you mentioned that that president trump lost all three times. I believe that was that's an error and that's a conspiracy theorist. Um, uh, I believe you spoke in error there, but. >> no, he lost minnesota all three times. >> okay, okay. I'm glad you corrected that because. >> he doesn't agree with that. >> okay. We're good, we're good. Have you ever used taxpayer funds, directly or indirectly, to take action against individuals suspected of disclosing potential wrongdoing within a government entity?
▶ 2:19:47>> I have not. >> well, almost 30 whistleblowers accused you and your administration of retaliation. Would you say that's a conspiracy then? >> I can't speak to what they said. I can tell you it didn't happen. >> okay. Are you aware of reports alleging state officials have engaged in retaliation against whistleblowers? >> uh, no, I'm not. Not specifically. No. >> you're not aware of that? When 30 have come forward? >> I am not I believe these are these are internet. We have options.
▶ 2:20:17The ola, we have independent folks that they can come to and I encourage them. It's against the law in minnesota. I have executive orders. >> against the law here, but it doesn't stop it. What actions have you taken to protect whistleblowers in your state, sir? Does anyone face consequences for retaliation? If so, who? >> well, in minnesota we have nonpartisan office of legislative auditor. We have zero tolerance. The minnesota whistleblower protection act prohibits retaliation.
▶ 2:20:42I signed executive order in 2025, added protections. The law explains and clarifies protections around what reports are protected and who can report issues. Um. They're strong. Uh, when I was here, I was an advocate for the ig's, and I think that's well known in my 12 years here that I. That we need them. >> okay. Well, a whistleblower blower told our office, um, that her supervisor at the minnesota department of health and human services threatened to make her job difficult.
▶ 2:21:10And the supervisor that did that later received a promotion. Um, that surprised you? And can you confirm if this account is accurate? >> no, I can't confirm it. And I don't make hr decisions, but what I'm I being very clear about this, there's a zero tolerance for whistleblower retaliation in minnesota. >> can you, um, how can any agency combat fraud when retaliation goes unchecked? >> it makes it more difficult. That's why we don't allow it.
▶ 2:21:41>> do you think that, uh, any, uh, the fraudster sent stolen funds to somali terrorist groups? >> pardon me? >> do you think that any of the, um, the somali folks that receive funds sent any of that money to, um, any of the stolen funds to somali terrorist groups? >> I there's been reports done and investigations done on this, and I don't believe there's any proof to support that. >> okay. Mr.
▶ 2:22:06Attorney general, um, do you recall a december 21st, 2021, meeting with individuals connected to feeding our future, during which you stated there will be cases that you know, I want you to feel free to call me directly. And then I call up and like, what's the problem? And let me tell you, just letting the inquiry from ag is sometimes enough to make people knock it off. >> congressman. Yeah, I was at a meeting like that.
▶ 2:22:33Let me just say that I've reported on this numerous times. I've been in front of a committee in the senate. I've been I'm here today. I was in front of a state, uh, house committee, I was I this is a widely discussed matter, and I've been fully transparent. But let me just be clear. Uh, these people were fraudsters, as everyone here agrees. They were liars. They lied to me. They lied to courts. They lied to everyone.
▶ 2:23:01And I would like you to know that I do meet with community meetings all the time. I mean, it's a regular part of my job. Nothing unusual about me meeting with people. Nothing unusual about me telling people. If you got a problem, you know, my office will try to help you. But these people were liars and fraudsters. The main thing is, I'd like you to know is that we're down so many federal prosecutors that it has put our ability to hold these people accountable. Definitely at a loss. >> yes, sir. Eight hour days do get long.
▶ 2:23:30In september of 2022, you issued a press release titled. For two years, attorney general ellison's office has held feeding our future accountable. Does that sound familiar? >> thank you for the question, congressman. Let me tell you, the department of education. >> sound familiar or not, sir? >> the it certainly does. And the department of. >> how much did you receive in campaign contributions from individuals charged in the feeding our future case? >> every campaign donation I got was returned to all authorities.
▶ 2:24:01>> everybody knows about the 250 million in fraud for feeding our future case, which was prosecuted by the us attorney's office in minnesota. But there were just two other large site sponsors that you settled with instead of prosecuting them. Why did you not prosecute partners in quality care or the ga ga family services? >> because my office doesn't have jurisdiction to prosecute. In those cases. >> you allowed them to dissolve, but no one was prosecuted. And, um, pike still. May be served.
▶ 2:24:31Pike is accused of 300 million fraud as significant assets, yet no charges and no attempts to recover taxpayer money. I'll remind y'all, $19 billion. I was a state legislator, and I can remember when our state budget was $19 billion. This is money that's been stolen and it will not be recovered. And you all are to blame. And every dadgum one of you all ought to step down. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> gentleman yields back before I recognize Mr. bell. Mr. donald, you have a uc. >> yeah.
▶ 2:25:00I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. An op ed from the minnesota star tribune authored by jim nobles, the former minnesota legislative auditor, dated december 29th, 2025. >> without objection. So ordered. Chair recognizes Mr. bell from saint louis. >> thank you, chair. >> ranking member and our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 2:25:20My republican colleagues have called this hearing today once again to divert the public's attention from the dangerous threats that they themselves have have created for the american people. They have chosen to turn a blind eye to the escalating public safety crisis in minneapolis, minnesota, fueled by the deployment of ice agents under the direction of president trump.
▶ 2:25:43On december 1st, 2025, this administration launched operation metro serve surge under the false pretense of promoting public safety in minneapolis. Since then, we have witnessed several deaths, including the brutal, brutal killings of renee. Good on january 7th, 2026 and alex preddie only a few short weeks later on january 24th.
▶ 2:26:06News reports state that in 2026 alone, there have already been eight additional deaths at the hands of federal agents. We are now living in one of the deadliest periods on record, with more deaths carried out by ice agents in recent years than at any time since 2004. Under this administration's direction, masked agents have inflicted trauma that will remain in these communities and neighborhoods.
▶ 2:26:36There's a lack of accountability and justice. Survivor stories have been suppressed, false narratives have been told, and federal officials have refused to cooperate, even going so far as to block state investigators from accessing evidence. Ag ellison, as the chief legal officer for the state of minnesota. What level of cooperation would you expect from the federal government during an investigation of this magnitude?
▶ 2:27:06>> congressman, I would expect the kind of cooperation that we're used to experiencing. I mean, in in all of the time that I've even been a lawyer, which is now 36 years, state federal cooperation was exactly how we did business all the time. We are very proud, and we love working with our fbi agents, dea agents, atf agents. It's a regular thing. This is what's strange and unusual.
▶ 2:27:33>> and has the lack of cooperation and unclear communication from the federal agencies undermine the investigations into the death of rene? Good. And alex? >> it certainly has. We have been denied access to critical evidence, uh, in this case, that we would need to evaluate this matter, uh, based on use of force analysis. >> which is befuddling to me because as a former prosecutor, I've led serious and thorough investigations in pursuit of justice.
▶ 2:28:02I can say that what we have seen by dhs, doj, and the fbi is the complete opposite of a detailed and thorough investigation into the wrongdoing of ice officials. And let us be clear, despite what president trump would have the public believe, those agents remain on the streets of minnesota. These actions are not isolated incidents. We've seen similar events taking place across the nation in illinois, north carolina and california, to name a few.
▶ 2:28:31We have heard directly from survivors about the cruelty and mistreatment they endured by ice agents, and we have seen the individuals appointed under president trump to head these operations, evade justice and not be held accountable for their actions. We can't stand by and allow this to continue. Those responsible for these actions must be held accountable, and survivors and their families deserve answers and justice. Which is why, Mr.
▶ 2:29:02Chair, I move that pursuant to clause two, subsection k six of house rule 11, the committee shall subpoena greg bovino to testify before the house committee on oversight and government reform. >> motion has been made. The committee will hold this motion in abeyance until the end of today's hearing. The committee will now proceed with today's hearing. >> I yield the remainder of my time to the ranking member.
▶ 2:29:28>> I'd like just to provide just a few of that time to the reverend. I wanted to make some additional comments about something that was said earlier in the hearing. If you have 30s. >> thank you. Just following up on matthew 25, I am so proud of the countless ways that minnesotans, christians, and people of other faiths and moral conscience have stepped forward to show love of neighbor and to come alongside those who are suffering most in this time.
▶ 2:29:56There is no greater example of living out the teachings of christ and caring for the least among us than what we've seen in minnesota these past few months. >> amen. >> thank you, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Before I recognize Mr. perry, I have a unanimous consent to enter into the record. An article from alpha news where us attorney rosen stated, and I quote, we have more than adequate staffing to carry out the fraud.
▶ 2:30:22We have been reinforced in dramatic numbers by the department of justice and by other departments of the federal government. Uh, he also said fraud investigations are increasing in pace. Fraud prosecutions, you will see, are going to be dramatically increasing in pace, according to rosen. If you're committing fraud on the state of minnesota, it's really not a good time to be doing so. Uh, just wanted to enter that article in the record. Without objection. So ordered chair now recognizes Mr. perry from pennsylvania. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Governor, good to see you again.
▶ 2:30:52You're an army guy? I'm an army guy. What's as governor, one of your primary responsibilities? Keep your citizens safe, right. I think we could probably agree on that. We might not agree on much, but we could probably agree on that. And I heard you talk earlier about working with federal partners. There's a lot of been a lot been discussed here about fraud of various kinds. But I want to talk about something that seems to me, quite honestly, a dereliction of duty or certainly a huge lapse in judgment.
▶ 2:31:20You were governor in october of 2023, right? Just want to make sure that's correct on the same page here. And you signed the minnesota driver's licenses for all act, is that correct? >> that's correct. Right. So now look, I'm not going to hold you to knowing every single thing in these laws. There's a lot of paragraphs and wording and so on and so forth.
▶ 2:31:45But under your law that you signed it prohibits the disclosure of information contained in the license or identification card. Applications for enforcing title eight of the united states code. Just to make sure you're familiar with what title eight deals with. >> I'm not specific.
▶ 2:32:04>> okay, so it deals with immigration, nationality and aliens, particularly the law that you signed eliminates the requirement for social security numbers or proof of lawful presence.
▶ 2:32:16And furthermore, it's a violation under section 14 four of your code for anybody to research that, as a matter of fact, immigration status is is classified as private under section 13.1 18.
▶ 2:32:34So literally, the federal government, your partner, as you said, we work with our federal partners, can't use that driver's license information regarding people that are here illegally. Now. >> I don't understand the connection between the driver's license and the immigration piece, I guess. >> well, they can't because, well, let me just let me make the connection for you.
▶ 2:32:57According to the secretary of transportation, one third of minnesota's non-domiciled commercial driver's licenses were issued illegally, were issued illegally. Do we do you have a video ready to play for me? Can you play it now? This is what happens. Mr. Mr. governor, this is what happens when you issue driver's licenses to people illegally. He is on the northbound lanes of 61 going the wrong way.
▶ 2:33:26You can see I'm going southbound on 61. He's in the northbound lanes on highway 61 and crossing over there. And thank god, I don't know how much that thing weighs. 60, 80,000 pounds, 60 miles an hour. You can you can cut the video.
▶ 2:33:46He was licensed in your state under a law that you signed that precludes federal officials, your federal partners, as you call them, from determining whether they're here illegally. That guy that was driving that truck couldn't pass the test. He didn't pass the test out on the road. There's another video.
▶ 2:34:07I'm not going to play it, but there's another video of a guy here illegally turning a truck like that around in the middle of a highway where people lost their lives because they were decapitated when they went underneath it. That's what happened. So my question for you is this should be easy. What are you going to do to rectify the law that you signed that allows people here illegally to get a cdl? That tape was in missouri, not in your state. Look, if you don't want to protect the people in your state, I guess that's your business and the business of your voters.
▶ 2:34:36But that driver was driving in missouri, and if he'd have hit a bunch of people, quite honestly, to me, you could have been held liable. >> yeah. Well, congressman, first of all, minnesota ranks in the top three safest states by highway data from your own department. >> highway data. >> the data from the department of transportation for highway safety, we have the third. We want everybody on our roads to be licensed. So are. >> you saying are you saying based on that, that you're okay? >> I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay with you or I speeding. I'm not okay with dui.
▶ 2:35:08>> you. But you signed this law that allows for that. You signed it, and you're going to do nothing about it. >> I can't speak to the specifics on the cdl. What I can tell you is. >> I can I just I referenced your law. It says house of representatives, state of minnesota. And I know there's a lot of words here. I just know. >> our roads are safer. >> exactly. The the sections that allow for this to happen and preclude federal enforcement regarding immigration and the illegality of people receiving cdls under your state's driver.
▶ 2:35:39>> safety and immigration are two separate things. Anybody had that been a citizen or not, it's still tragic. It's wrong. We shouldn't do it. What I'm telling you is in minnesota, we have the third safest roads in the country. So you're good. >> so you're good with this? >> I'm not good with that. >> what are you good with? Because that's what's happening under your law. >> well, I can't speak to the specific on if it's an outlier. We give license to people who then eventually people get us after we issue. >> that happened last month. This is march. That happened a week and a half ago. Yeah, I don't familiar. >> that's wrong. And look.
▶ 2:36:10>> but you're not going to. >> do anything. Sure we're going to do what are you going to do. Because what what what are we going to do? Was this person arrested? I sure hope so. That's good. And what? But he was licensed in your state under your law that you signed about a year and a half ago. Every day we give licenses and people speed, so we ticket them and try and stop that.
▶ 2:36:28What I'm telling you is, I don't understand the connection between he's here illegally, he can't read, and he got a license under your provisions, and he's driving all across the country imperiling everybody else. That's the connection. I can't speak to you. The data shows minnesota is one of the safest driving states in the country. I don't know what to tell you. Other states driving, apparently. I don't know, Mr. >> chair now recognizes Mr. min from california. >> I'm first, sir. >> oh. You're next. Okay.
▶ 2:36:59>> is that okay, sir? >> I didn't have it on the list, but. >> oh, I. >> will yield to the ranking member. >> you can go ahead, I don't care. >> yes, sir. Okay. >> you can. I'll. I'll let him go next. >> I was tardy I thank you, Mr. I thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, good afternoon and thank you witnesses for coming today. So what I've heard so far is feeding our future. $250 million stolen, 50 convictions secured. The prosecution was working.
▶ 2:37:27Then the administration froze 10 billion in child care across five states. No evidence, no legal authority, no statutory process. A federal court ruled it unlawful and unconstitutional within 48 hours. Thank you. Attorney general ellison and attorney general bonta for that work. Then the lead prosecutor resigned. His team followed. Those prosecutions are now at risk.
▶ 2:37:55So the record shows they froze 10 billion illegally, lost in court immediately and dismantled the prosecution, actually putting fraudsters in prison. Every single action made the fraud worse. This isn't incompetence because incompetence is random. This was targeted, legally defective and prosecutorial catastrophic.
▶ 2:38:23If this committee were serious about fraud, the first witness should have been the h s h h s official who sent the letter, not the attorney general who beat them in court. Attorney general ellison, what are we doing here? And I want actually to ask you, what is your office doing systemically to prosecute fraud in the state? >> well, thank you for the question, congresswoman.
▶ 2:38:48Um, we, as I said, prosecuting medicaid fraud is a very important work that we do. We do it every single day. We secured billions of dollars for people. We've gotten millions in restitution. We've convicted people and held them accountable. We also represent state agencies and help those agencies, uh, support the work that they do.
▶ 2:39:12Uh, the fact of the matter is, is that, you know, we the this this work we do to stop fraud, uh, is helping to protect public money. We're proud of it. Um, and we also support federal prosecutions by providing them with information that they need to prosecute fraud, which we have done and will, of course, continue to do. >> so, sir. So tell me this. How has the ability to prosecute that fraud in social services programs been affected by this administration?
▶ 2:39:41>> well, it has been devastated by the actions of this administration. This administration has cut the number of prosecutors, but also has redirected fbi agents to do immigration as opposed to. >> why have they cut those prosecutors? >> those prosecutors actually, I said cut, but they actually resigned as a matter of conscience because the administration was trying to force them to investigate. The widow of renee good. >> say more.
▶ 2:40:04>> so many of them said that they weren't they couldn't work under those circumstances because it violated their ethical, uh, their personal ethical requirements. So they quit. >> so they left their jobs that they had sworn to do in mass because they were conflicted with conscience. >> that's right.
▶ 2:40:20And may I add, congresswoman, that we have had motions for to dismiss for, um, the violation of a of a defendant's right to a speedy trial granted by judges in minnesota because there's not enough federal prosecutors.
▶ 2:40:37And, you know, one of those was the person who was a violent offender, uh, who was being prosecuted for, uh, felon in possession of a firearm case was dismissed because there are not enough people to perform the functions of prosecuting people who commit crimes. So this is having a devastating effect on our state. And in addition to all that, congresswoman. >> so let me get this straight. Help me understand.
▶ 2:41:0150 convictions secured, additional prosecutions in limbo. The administration's prosecutors have quit because the staging of how this all works, they believe, and they have said on record is immoral. Why are we here? >> uh, I've been wondering that, um, madam, because. >> aren't you saying that you would love for the the prosecutions that are dangling in the wind?
▶ 2:41:29You would love for those folks to face justice. >> absolutely. Stealing public money. >> would be then to the administration. For what? With this committee here. I think your your colleague, the governor of your great state said you want more federal prosecutors on this case? >> yes. But it also we should go back to the hippocratic oath of do no harm.
▶ 2:41:52I mean, it would it would be good to just stop doing things that shouldn't be done, uh, such as demanding that prosecutors investigate renee good's widow. >> right? That's right. Well, I want to thank you all so much for coming today. And, um, to the reverend, I was able to come to your state briefly, and, like one of my colleagues said, I did go by the site of miss good's death. And it was heartening to see the solidarity in your community.
▶ 2:42:21There are about 150 christians reciting the lord's prayer over and over and over. You all are showing us what good really means. Thank you so much for being here today. And I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair. Mr. crane from arizona. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, thank you to our guests for coming today.
▶ 2:42:41Um, I want to start with you, attorney general ellison, in an interview with cnn host laura coates, she asked you about whether or not you did enough to stop the fraud. Do you remember that interview? Attorney general? >> uh, congressman, I, I gotta admit that I don't remember the details. >> we play the video, please. So, Mr. refresh, Mr. ellison's memory. >> are we ready to. It may take us a second on that. I'm sorry.
▶ 2:43:11>> okay, I'll. I'll just tell you what you said when she asked you if you'd done enough to stop the fraud. And she mentioned the $9 billion. Um, you said, of course we have done enough. We're doing more every single day. This is a political matter. This is not a serious thing. Do you remember saying that, attorney general ellison? >> I remember the conversation. What I remember was that I was lamenting the political, politicized nature of this very serious problem. Uh.
▶ 2:43:41>> you said it's not a serious thing. So now you're saying. >> fraud is a serious thing? >> okay, well, that's not that's not what. You said on cnn, Mr. ellison. You said this is a political matter and this is a quote. This is not a serious thing. So I notice you're changing your tune now that you're before the house oversight committee. >> I would have. >> you understand, Mr.
▶ 2:43:59Attorney general, why this adds gasoline to the fire when americans are so frustrated with this government for their out of control spending and the amount of money they pay in taxes, and then to see $9 billion of it, an estimate of $9 billion getting stolen of their taxpayer dollars and being used to fund cars and vacations and homes and even fund terrorism. Do you understand how statements like that throw gasoline on the fire? Sir?
▶ 2:44:29>> congressman, I believe that you are mischaracterizing what I said. >> so I actually read you the quote. I'm not mischaracterizing. >> it already. If you still want it, it's up. It's up. >> yeah. Let's play it, please. >> is that. >> there has been hundreds of millions of dollars, but now there are some estimates that there could be $9 billion or more. And nome is just suggesting they took hundreds of people off the street who were involved in fraud.
▶ 2:44:57Are you confident your office has done enough? >> of course we've done enough, and we're doing more every single day. This is a political matter. This is not a serious thing. >> so how how are you going to sit here, attorney general, saying I'm mischaracterizing I, I read word for word your quote. I then showed it to the entire dais, the entire audience here today. How are you going to sit here and say that I mischaracterized you?
▶ 2:45:26>> congressman, I believe you mischaracterized me because clearly what I was referring to by not serious is that the the serious issue of fraud is being politicized and converted into a political weapon. That is not a serious matter in my view. That is something that I believe all of us should take seriously, but we're not taking seriously enough. So, sir, I would say very clearly, fraud is a is a odious, horrible, malignant thing.
▶ 2:45:55And that's why it should not be turned into a political weapon. But we should come together on a bipartisan reason. >> it's becoming political, sir, is because of statements like that. When confronted with the $9 billion of fraud in your state, as the top cop in your state that you're clearly not doing enough to address, I want to move on.
▶ 2:46:15Reverend, you said in your opening statement that today's hearing is about fraud in minnesota, quote unquote, which is serving as a pretext for the terror the federal government has brought to the people of minnesota. This fraud has been used as a rationale. Rationale for deploying 3000 federal immigrant enforcement agents into our state. Did you say that, reverend? >> yes. >> this is absolutely false.
▶ 2:46:39These federal agents were actually brought in to the state of minnesota for a very specific operation to remove illegal alien, alien criminals. It wasn't because of the fraud that's being handled under a completely different agency. And ice and everything else. That's the us district attorney. Okay. Did you know that. >> the administration has linked all of these things together? >> well, they've linked they've linked the fact that you guys supported an open border that led in 15 to $20 million.
▶ 2:47:09And some of the fallout from that is fraud, like the 9 billion we're talking about today. Some of it are the rapists, the gangsters, the, you know, the people that are committing fraud. They're burglarizing people. They're carjacking people. It's all kind of linked together. It's also linked to the save act, which many of you guys and my democrat colleagues don't want to vote on vote for, even though 83% of americans support it. It's all linked together. But that's not what this operation was about.
▶ 2:47:38So you're bearing false witness in this in this hearing today, because that's not what that operation was about at all. >> what I'm here to talk about is the suffering of minnesotans at the hands of federal agents, including children and their parents, and the great devastation and harm that it has caused across our state and across our wonderful communities. >> have you spoken about about lake and riley or any of the american victims that have been raped, murdered or killed by these illegal aliens?
▶ 2:48:07Reverend, I didn't think so. I yield back. >> gentleman yields back now. Chair recognizes Mr. min from california. >> thank you, Mr. chair, for convening this hearing. Uh, let's start at the outset by just stating the obvious. Waste, fraud and abuse are horrible. Uh, they're stealing from taxpayers. They're taking money and food out of the mouths of hungry kids. Uh, I have spent my career fighting against fraud. I started my career at the sec prosecuting corporate fraud, continued on as a law professor, teaching the next generation.
▶ 2:48:37Uh, and as someone on the oversight committee, this is a very, very important issue to me. Uh, again, every dollar that is stolen from these programs is a dollar that's not just taken from us hardworking taxpayers. It is something that is meant for a better use.
▶ 2:48:49Uh, and so I appreciate the gist of this hearing, but as I've pointed out in prior hearings on allegations of fraud in minnesota, uh, the singular and exclusive focus on the somalian community in minnesota seems very partizan and wrong, because we know there's massive fraud across this country, particularly in southern states, including states like florida and mississippi. Mississippi is still at trial right now. Over $77 million in welfare fraud.
▶ 2:49:14Federal prosecutors have recently arrested a russian national accused of submitting billions of dollars in fraudulent schemes in texas and florida. And, of course, oklahoma and alabama consistently rank as the highest states when it comes to snap fraud. And yet we've only focused on minnesota. Why? As a freshman member, I've been here 14 months, but I've learned that the house republicans are all single issue voters with just a handful of exceptions and that single issue, the only thing that you all care about is whether you're on team trump or not.
▶ 2:49:43And so when donald trump goes after minnesota and falsely claims that he won the election there three times and that was rigged against him, I paid close attention when he says that he would no longer admit somalians to this country because they contribute, quote, nothing to this country. I listen, that's a wildly racist statement, but it's going to reflect what republicans are going to do. And that is why we're holding this hearing. I care about welfare fraud, and I care about the scumbags who rip off taxpayer money.
▶ 2:50:07But if this was about welfare fraud, we'd be also hauling in people like mississippi governor tate reeves and former nfl quarterback brett favre, who clearly knew about a scheme to send money to build a volleyball facility at the college his daughter was playing at, received funds for 600,000 or more for work that he never did from the government again, taking money from the mouths of of children that are hungry. Now, this hearing is not about welfare fraud. It's about placating donald trump.
▶ 2:50:34This committee is holding this hearing for the same reasons that it's ignoring the massive corruption. We know that donald trump is engaged in his family, soliciting bribes from foreign governments and private companies in exchange for regulatory favor, for the same reason that republicans are protecting pedophiles right now, and that the doj is right now actively deleting epstein files while we're at war with iran. It's why they ignore their oath to support and defend the constitution of the united states.
▶ 2:50:57It's why we're holding hearings on this, rather than on ice abuses, or the fact that donald trump just took us into war without even consulting with congress, let alone getting our authorization for military use or force or actual declaration of war in direct contravention of the constitution of the united states. But for those of us who care about taxpayer dollars, let's focus on that. This is horrible. Uh, but of course, we have seen instead a different type of abuse our taxpayer dollars.
▶ 2:51:25They've taken our taxpayer dollars and used them to fund abuses against our american people, as a number of our witnesses aptly described. And I want to just point out that until the murder of alex peretti, not a single dhs or ice agent accused of wrongdoing witnessed or videotaped assaulting americans, was suspended, faced any disciplinary action. That doesn't happen with police. When my local law enforcement are accused of misconduct, certainly if they're videotaped shooting someone, uh, they are subject to an investigation. Maybe they're justified or not, but they're suspended.
▶ 2:51:55Removed from duty. Investigate. None of that has happened until the murder of alex peretti and the outrage around that. Now, governor walz, I want to just briefly ask you, what's the economic impact that the deployment of ice in minnesota has had over the past few months? >> well, thank you, congressman. I thank you for your characterization. I associate myself with you on fraud is horrific. It is corrosive. It hurts those people that are there. And taxpayers should demand accountability. And I think that's what we're trying to take. Um, the issue again.
▶ 2:52:26>> what's the economic impact? I know business. >> for us. We just had our economic numbers. And I would tell people that we have to balance the budget every year. Minnesota is strongly we're triple a bond rated. That shows up good. It doesn't account for what happened over the last three months. And by estimates, the city of minneapolis estimates they lost $200 million alone. And I remind people you saw pictures of minneapolis. This happened across the state near my hometown of mankato, minnesota, in saint peter. We saw a woman that was pulled over at gunpoint, a citizen, uh, the the chilling effect.
▶ 2:52:55It had businesses going under, especially immigrant owned businesses, people who are here legally, citizens starting businesses were shut down. >> I'm going to reclaim my time to make one final point here. Um, I was at minneapolis, had the chance to meet with you and others. Uh, I also met with a number of local police chiefs. And one of the things they told me first, this is not the first time ice has operated in minnesota, but in the past. What is different about this time is that they did not coordinate, they did not tell anyone.
▶ 2:53:24And that resulted in a lot of 911 calls. Because when you see masked men jumping out of vans, pulling people out, assaulting them, punching them in the head, as happens all the time with ice agents. Uh, and by the way, that's not a matter of training. It's a matter of picking people who are predisposed to violence. Uh, that cost costs our local police quite a lot of money. It's one of the reasons I'm going to be introducing the recoup act so that local jurisdictions are repaid for the funds that they expend due to ice misconduct. With that, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back before I recognize miss boebert. Mr.
▶ 2:53:53Gill, I understand you have a uc. >> yep. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from the america first policy institute dated march 3rd, 2026, which details widespread and rampant fraud in minnesota. >> without objection, so ordered chair now recognize miss boebert from colorado. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I'm going to summarize some of the things that have already been said here today. Rather than ask these questions directly.
▶ 2:54:20Um, the federal prosecutors that we have have now charged nearly 100 individuals across multiple minnesota fraud schemes, including feeding our future and related medicaid, daycare and autism programs, with 85 of those charged being of somali descent.
▶ 2:54:38Governor walz, your administration's department of education and department of human services failed to act on multiple early fraud warnings about feeding our future, allowing the theft of at least $250 million in federal child nutrition funds that were supposed to feed hungry kids during the covid 19 pandemic. Governor walz, I'd like to turn to the demographics and policy choices that enabled this.
▶ 2:55:06Since you took office, the somali population in minnesota has grown substantially recently, fox nine reported. Um, the reporting puts the total over 107,000. Did your administration's soft on immigration policies, including expanded refugee programs and temporary protected status, contribute to that rapid growth? >> I couldn't speak to why people moved to minnesota, other than it's a great place.
▶ 2:55:35>> to policy and refugee programs and temporary protected status. Uh, according to the center for immigration studies analysis of census data, 81% of minnesota households headed by somali immigrants received one or more forms of public assistance, compared to just 21% of native born minnesotan households. Why is that disparity so extreme under your watch, sir?
▶ 2:56:04>> I can't speak specifically, congressman, but I would anticipate that new generation immigrants, whether they be norwegian or whether they be hmong or whether they be somali, probably on the front end as they're establishing homeownership education. >> I think we should be bringing folks to our country that are going to contribute and not just siphon off of the tax. >> dollars. They are contributing citizens. >> uh, Mr. governor walz, yes or no?
▶ 2:56:26Would stricter vetting of immigrants and refugees have prevented many of these fraudsters from entering our country in the first place? >> I wouldn't have any way to know that. >> do you agree with stricter vetting processes for those who are coming to our country? >> I don't care where you're coming from, if you commit fraud, you're going to jail in minnesota. That's what I care about and that's what I'm here for. >> yes or no?
▶ 2:56:50Should somali immigrants or any other immigrants, uh, who defraud american taxpayers and steal funds intended for hungry children be deported immediately? >> that's a decision for the federal government. You're responsible for immigration. >> governor walz, do you know who victoria eileen harwell is? >> I do not believe I do. >> what about american mafalda tire? >> I don't believe I do.
▶ 2:57:15>> there, uh, these are minnesota women who were brutally killed by illegal aliens in your state. You don't know who they are. So I would also assume that you did not attend their vigils or speak out to their families when they were brutally killed by illegal aliens. >> I'm not familiar with both of these. No, congresswoman. >> no, just just the hard hitting cnn ones. Uh, yes or no? Would you support endings?
▶ 2:57:43Minnesota ending minnesota's sanctuary policies to stop these fraudsters and murderers, uh, from using your state as a safe haven? >> well, as I said on june 12th, we don't have sanctuary policies. And tom homan reiterated that here in the past few weeks that we do not either, and that we are cooperating as direct. >> thank you.
▶ 2:58:03Governor, will you direct local law enforcement to fully cooperate with ice and federal agents, um, and follow federal immigration laws that are currently on the books? >> they do. If they want to do more, they can. But we have a floor that they have to. And that's been proven time and time again in minnesota over this. That's why they're not they're leaving because we had cooperated. >> okay. Final question for you, governor.
▶ 2:58:26There are multiple documented reports of somali immigrants entering sham marriages, including siblings, uh, and close family members, solely for immigration purposes. Are you aware of these reports? And what, if anything, has your administration done to stop this kind of immigration fraud happening in your state? >> states are not responsible for immigration screening, and I'm not familiar with what you're what. >> you're responsible for any vetting whatsoever.
▶ 2:58:59>> federal government. >> this is happening under your watch. And there's immigration fraud. So we will do everything that we can. Um, and hopefully you allow your, uh, local law enforcement officers to coordinate with federal agents when we are going after these immigration fraudsters. >> as we do. >> thank you. Madam chair. Now recognizes Mr. walkinshaw from virginia. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, governor, would you agree that fraud is not a victimless crime? >> I would agree with that. It is not a victimless crime.
▶ 2:59:28>> and it's my understanding that in minnesota, you as governor, you do not have the unilateral power to pardon those convicted of state crimes. But you and Mr. ellison and I think one other person sit on a panel that can issue pardons. Is that correct? >> yes. With the chief justice of the supreme court. >> thank you. In your time on that panel, can you recall ever pardoning an individual convicted of fraud? >> I can't recall, I can't state either way. >> Mr. ellison. Any recollection of that?
▶ 2:59:59>> it's it's. >> it's possible. I don't recall it, though. >> okay. I'm not sure if it's true in minnesota, but at the federal level, if a convicted fraudster is pardoned, that pardon can wipe out their obligation to pay restitution to the victims. Are any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? I know you're far away. His name is jason galanis. Sound familiar? >> I am not congressman. >> jason galanis.
▶ 3:00:24According to the federal judge who sentenced him to 15 years in prison, is a serial fraudster in a con man who defrauded a pension fund in a native american tribe of $80 million. I'll put it in simpler terms. He stole money from retirees. Do any of our witnesses know what federal prison Mr. galanis is being held in? >> I do not, congressman. >> he's not because president trump are fraudster in chief.
▶ 3:00:53The namesake of the fraudulent trump university, the fraudulent trump foundation, the fraudulent trump organization pardoned him and relieved him of the requirement to pay restitution to his victims. A member of this committee, Mr. jordan, recommended to president trump that he be pardoned. Any of our witnesses familiar with this individual? His name is jeremy hutchinson. Hutchinson. >> I am not congressman. >> Mr.
▶ 3:01:19Hutchinson is a former arkansas state senator, republican, convicted of a multi-million dollar public corruption scheme, embezzlement, bribes, illegal campaign contributions, conspiracy to commit bribery. Mr. homan might know something about that for passing legislation that benefited an orthodontist who was paying him off. President trump's department of justice in his first term prosecuted him.
▶ 3:01:47A judge sentenced him to eight years in prison and ordered him to pay $355,000 in restitution to his victims. Any of our witnesses know where Mr. hutchinson is serving that sentence today? >> I have a guess. >> I have a guess, too. >> he's not serving a sentence because president trump pardoned him, relieving him of his restitution obligation.
▶ 3:02:12A corrupt politician prosecuted by trump's justice department in the first term, pardoned by trump in this term. Trump has pardoned fraudster after fraudster denying victims. We talked about victims, taxpayers, senior citizens, children, the restitution they deserve $1.3 billion.
▶ 3:02:37That's the total that trump's pardoned fraudsters have been relieved of paying their victims. The chairman called this hearing because he's concerned about fraud, about accountability. I share those concerns. But where is the hearing on the $1.3 billion? Trump has relieved his pardoned fraudsters from paying their victims. Did those victims get a voice in this congress?
▶ 3:03:08There's a lot of outrage today. Raised voices on both sides. Will we raise our voices on behalf of those who have been victimized by president trump's pardon? Fraudsters? Governor waltz, what signal would it send if you and attorney general ellison and the judge who sit on this panel were to pardon some of the fraudsters who have committed this fraud in minnesota, what signal would that send?
▶ 3:03:37What impact could that have? >> congressman, I believe it would send a signal that we don't take it seriously, because you have to put these people in jail and they have to serve their lengthy sentences, and they have to do restitution. >> and just hypothetically, here, if you were to pardon one of those individuals, how would you explain it to the victims of that fraud? The taxpayers across the country, those individuals who didn't get access to the social services they need because the money was stolen, how would you explain it to them? >> I don't believe I could.
▶ 3:04:08>> I don't think you could either. >> may I, may I share, please, congressman, that generally when people get any kind of a pardon in minnesota, they've done all their sentence. And governor walz is very careful to say, have you paid every penny you owe people? So that that's kind of how we do pardons in minnesota? >> well, these folks have not paid their pennies $1.3 billion worth of pennies. >> I would the gentleman yield to question. >> my time has expired, Mr. chairman. >> your time. Your time if you want.
▶ 3:04:35I mean, you mentioned jason galanis, and that piqued my interest, and I'm sure it did, Mr. biggs as well. Uh, and I think and you are correct, he did defraud an indian, uh, or a native american pension fund. Do you know who his partner was? >> I know all the background of it. The point is, he stole. >> money from people who his partner was is hunter biden and jason jason galanis served in prison. For how long, Mr. biggs? >> two years. >> no. >> that's incorrect.
▶ 3:05:04No, he served in prison years. Many years. And they were equal partners. And galanis blew the whistle during our biden investigation. And he was raped. He was raped in prison right after that. So that's correct. >> will the victims of his fraud get their money back? >> why did president maybe ask hunter biden why why president trump? You weren't asking president trump. You weren't here during the president. Trump to get the victims their money back. But you know more than anybody about everything.
▶ 3:05:34So, chairman, the chair recognizes Mr. biggs from arizona. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, and I'm glad you brought it up. Because of the ten partners in in that fraud that you mentioned, nine of them went to prison. Do you know who the one partner was that didn't go? Your buddy hunter biden? That's that's right. Hunter biden didn't go. And and by the way, you didn't you must not have been here.
▶ 3:05:59I don't think you were here when I introduced all these all these, uh, documents earlier before I had to leave to go to judiciary, talking about of the 1500 criminals, uh, pardoned by, uh, joe biden in one week, two dozen of them were fraudsters that had hundreds of millions of dollars of restitution forgiven by joe biden. I'm going to go now to Mr. ellison. >> will the gentleman yield? >> no, I'm. No, I've had enough of you. Let's talk to to Mr.
▶ 3:06:30Ellison. Uh, Mr. ellison, isn't it true that when you were a member of congress, you sponsored the money remittances improvement act of 2014? Is h.r. 4386? Do you remember that? >> congressman? I think that it's accurate. >> yeah. I mean, I get you we we we all introduce lots of bills, but that bill's purpose was to give more authority to states to investigate remittance payments. Do you remember that, congressman?
▶ 3:06:56>> I believe that the purpose of that bill was to facilitate financial transactions for minnesotans who needed them. >> well, in reality, you you shifted remittance payments investigations to the states, and that was supported by the somali-american remittances association. You may not remember that, but that's that was. >> congressman, could you remind me, did that bill ever pass. >> h.r. 4386?
▶ 3:07:19So it was supported by somali american resistance association, and it was so important to you that you said, quote, this is a great day for diaspora communities around the country, including the somali and hmong communities. Um, and that that's something you said. And, um, and we know that the somali population in minnesota, in minnesota supported that bill.
▶ 3:07:44Uh, that bill was passed, I believe, in 2014, minnesota started identifying large numbers of remittances, payments going overseas. And isn't it true that within four years of the bill passing, more than $100 million had been flown out of the minneapolis airport by somalians? Do you know that? >> I don't have the information on that? >> and over the last two years, the tsa has identified over $700 million being flown out and linked to somali travel. Are you familiar with that? >> no, sir. I don't have the data on that.
▶ 3:08:14>> um, you, under your tenure as the ag, the amount of remittance payments going to somalia, which, by the way, some estimates as high as 40% of all somalia's gdp comes from those, uh, remittance payments and roughly 40 same number of 40% of families in somalia receive some benefit, uh, economic benefit, directly from some remittance payments. So moving from that, do you know salim saeed?
▶ 3:08:42>> that name is not familiar to me, sir. >> eli crane mohammed. >> no. >> uh, I'm sure omar. >> no. >> okay, so, uh, in 2021, you met with a group of somali, of somalis, business people. Those three people were there, safari restaurant partners in quality care, also known as parties and nutrition. Uh, some of their named partners.
▶ 3:09:06And feeding our future representatives, including omar, who said they were having difficulties because they were being investigated. Um, and that conduct is very racist, xenophobic and islamophobic. Uh, do you remember that meeting? >> yes, I do, uh, and I and I'll tell you that these are people who were fraudsters. They lied to me. They lied to the judge, they lied to state agencies.
▶ 3:09:34And that's why we contributed to them being convicted. >> well, let's let's go on from that because you you may not remember, uh, some of the things you said to them, uh, specifically, uh, and maybe we should play this video. I don't know if we have the video cued up, if we have video cued up. Well, that's fine, let's do it. >> call them and say this is not in the right format. Not you're out. You're done. Your contracts are over. And so this has my attention.
▶ 3:10:04I'm extremely frustrated by it. But we are in the middle of a battle with the agencies now. And I can tell you this, um, walls agrees with me that this piddly stupid stuff running small people out of business is terrible. >> because what you're what? You're what you thought was terrible. There was that these people were being investigated for fraud. And you later took $10,000 in campaign donations from these same individuals.
▶ 3:10:33Do you remember that? >> I would disagree with that characterization entirely, sir. >> I'm sure you would. >> know what I. >> would surely uncomfortable for you, but you took $10,000 from those same people that were ostensibly supposed to be investigated. Yeah. >> no, that that's actually inaccurate. >> no, it's not inaccurate. Well. It is, first of all, you're entitled to say it's inaccurate, but the facts are the facts, and my time has expired, Mr. chairman. But I do have some I do have some uc requests.
▶ 3:11:03>> go ahead. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Minnesota ag, you took $10,000 from convicted scammers, dismisses fraud scandal as political theater. >> without objection. >> amy bock alleges governor tim walz attorney general keith ellison knew of minnesota fraud. >> the objection. >> waltz and omar using ice operations to distract from fraud scandal. >> the objection. >> tim walz accused of stonewalling key probe as somali fraud sweeps his state. >> the objection.
▶ 3:11:31>> conservatives blast dems waltz for likening ice agents to nazi police force. >> without objection. >> tim walz urges minnesotans to resist federal occupation. >> without objection. >> tim walz was a covid 19 tyrant. >> without objection. >> anti ice agitators set up blockade on minneapolis street to check driver's license plates. >> without objection. >> minnesota attorney general's legal opinion could threaten some county agreements with ice. >> that objection.
▶ 3:11:56>> to ice restricted from minneapolis owned parking areas under mayor frey orders minnesota mom jailed over covid, accuses wallace of tyranny minnesota grandma jailed for defying covid lockdown order warrants. You do not want tyranny at this level and mother ponders. And that's all. >> without objection. So ordered chair now recognizes Mr. pressley from massachusetts.
▶ 3:12:18>> I've been in congress now for almost eight years, and one of the most meaningful moments that I experienced here, um, was in the committee on oversight and reform, uh, under the great chairman, elijah cummings. Uh, it was the first hearing to take place, um, that I introduced in the house of representatives on the epidemic.
▶ 3:12:38That is childhood trauma, though I represent the massachusetts seventh one through line has remained true in my travels and conversations from massachusetts to minnesota to illinois to texas. And it is the devastating impacts of trump's terror campaign on our nation's children. This administration's policies, including but certainly not limited to, operation metro surge.
▶ 3:13:04Um, in my opinion, I would characterize as child abuse, uh, child neglect and inflicting childhood trauma. Uh, we are experiencing in real time the compounded adult ifying of our children. We're increasingly so a childhood is a privilege instead of a right.
▶ 3:13:25I'm reminded of a conversation I had recently at the airport where a dad approached me to talk about his six year old son, who returned home from school, uh, pleading and begging for his parents to give safe haven to his classmate, his best friend, for fear that if they did not do that, that he would be deported. No child should have those concerns or carry that heavy burden. But this is the reality for our nation's children.
▶ 3:13:54Uh, under donald trump's america. Frederick douglass said it is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. We are certainly not building strong children. In my district, the massachusetts seventh, alani was only two weeks old when her father was wrongfully taken by ice, a trauma that she will carry for the rest of her life. Again.
▶ 3:14:21So far, I'm speaking about the pleas of a six year old and, um, the policy, uh, rather the family separation of a two week old in minnesota. Liam ramos was, uh, only with the age of five years old, was detained by ice and sent to texas. And he'll carry that trauma for the rest of his life. There are the children that are directly impacted. Then there is that secondary trauma for those who have bore witness.
▶ 3:14:50While in minnesota, I met with parents who have had to establish parental patrols armed with whistles and orange vests and their cameras to try to keep their children safe. Uh, green street elementary. It was just across the street from one of the murders that occurred in broad daylight, uh, under operation metro surge around the country. The children of renee good, keith porter, geraldo campos and dozens of other children whose parents were killed by ice agents will carry that trauma the rest of their lives.
▶ 3:15:20Trauma in their bodies, their classrooms, their sleep. It shows up in the ways they cling to their parents at school, drop off in the silence of a child who used to speak freely in nightmares and no children. No child should be visited by governor. Walz is a former educator and coach who worked closely with young people experiencing traumatic events. What effect does this have on them, their classmates and community?
▶ 3:15:44And have you heard from, um, mental health professionals or pediatric providers about how this is showing up in your state? >> no. Well, thank you for the question, congresswoman. First of all, I would say when I talk about minnesota being one of the best states, if we're not first, it's usually because massachusetts is. And I note that it is true because you care about this and you mentioned it correctly. This is generational trauma that's been inflicted, whether it's learning loss that's happened or the trauma we've seen amongst our children.
▶ 3:16:11Um, I say that as an educator, as governor, the deep concern. But as a parent of seeing this, what's happened to our children, we know that mental health issues will start to show up. We know that we'll see educational loss and those have generational impacts on our economy and everything else. I will note, um, your colleague mentioned me being a tyrant during covid. We had some of the lowest deaths due to covid.
▶ 3:16:35Tyrant looks like children being drugged from their parents, old people being drug out of their house without warrants, two dead on the streets. And your point? The world saw a piece of it on tv. I can tell you, none of us are going to be the same congresswoman. We are going to deal with this, and we are going to put money into social service programs to address it while we tighten up fraud protections. Because the idea is, is you have all these generous programs. Yes.
▶ 3:17:01And our people are healthier, our people are more educated, our economy stronger. So thank you. >> thank you. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record of february 2026 article from hechinger report titled parental stress raids and isolation without immigration enforcement traumatizes. Even the youngest children. >> without objection to ordered.
▶ 3:17:24>> you know, as I close, I've always taken issue with the myth that children are resilient and something that people say because I guess it brings them comfort. The false notion that if you hurt kids, they will automatically heal. It allows policy makers to inflict harm and then to look away. But children are not collateral for reckless and godless policies, and they should not be ignored. Rather, we should center children to understand the impacts of all these policies.
▶ 3:17:51And, um, governor walz, uh, with these remaining. >> I'm sorry, ma'am. >> can I yield? >> all right. Thank you. Chair now recognizes Mr. sessions from texas. >> Mr. chairman, thank you very much. To my two former colleagues. I would welcome you back. And I know that this is something that, uh, is not as easily done. And I recognize that. I want to thank our methodist preacher for being here.
▶ 3:18:20I want to put in some context, uh, what you've heard today, and that is probably to both of you. Not a lot has changed up here. We're still trying to play the gotcha game. We're still trying that people are trying to do their job. That's what we are trying to do here. We come back and talk about children.
▶ 3:18:37Yet we forget that that president biden, president obama, had tens of thousands, 800,000 children that were lost by them, that president trump is still trying to find. We talk about not trusting ice, which is a federal component. And yet the boston bombers caused chaos.
▶ 3:19:00I can't imagine why we wouldn't want to form up a relationship instead of saying ice is no good, we don't want you. It is the federal component. So with all that said, in fairness to each of you, you've heard what we've said today.
▶ 3:19:16So I would ask you, governor, uh, and then I will say right up front, I was kind of hoping that you might show up, or both of you might show up because your methodist, a methodist preachers here and say we didn't do everything right. We think there were a lot of things done wrong. We think we want to learn. We come and ask that you understand that this is something that happened in our midst. My methodist preacher, uh, I'm a methodist.
▶ 3:19:48My methodist preacher meets with me pretty often and make sure that, uh, he knows and I know I look for balance, I look for fairness, I look for objectivity. And I know you've not been placed in a very good position now, but I got three minutes left. Governor. What did we do wrong here? What? What how do you want to set that record straight? Because otherwise it's going to be a he said, he said against you guys.
▶ 3:20:17And I want you to tell me, where did we get it wrong on this side? >> well, congressman, I appreciate that. And I do say, and. >> you and I are friends. >> we are. And I've said it publicly before, we disagreed on some issues, but we had a lot of conversations on the floor. Look, I, I think I agree with you as governor. I've taken accountability for this. I'm not going to run again. I need to spend the time fixing this. This does undermine trust in government. Do I wish there were things that could have happened earlier? Yes. But in this job, wish didn't do it. I'm looking into where I see it.
▶ 3:20:47I can tell you this, congressman, that the safeguards we're putting in place are going to make a difference. I think other states can use them. I think one of the things is I asked if helping in the partnership piece of this understanding that this happens in all states. I'm certainly not proud this happened. I certainly understand it happened on my watch, whether it predated me or not, I'm here.
▶ 3:21:04I think some of the things is there's some legal changes we need around medicaid eligibility issues that you're talking about that actually might get at this because I would hope, congressman, you and I agree these programs are valuable and they need to go to the people who need them. And we need to stop the fraud that's in there. And I'm trying to explain to you what we did from the beginning. These people continue to be a moving target, and they are very sophisticated. >> is there still a problem? >> is there still fraud happening? >> is there still a problem? And we'll say in minnesota, I know we're not.
▶ 3:21:34>> I think there's more work to be done. Yes, I will tell you that. And we're working on it. I have a package that I introduced last week. One of the things that I think is going to be helpful, and I know you're working on it up here, is the ability to use ai. It's the prescreening. What you don't want to hear from us is and I don't want to hear that we're arresting people after they did it. We need to stop it before it happened. >> and I agree with some of that. We're moving. We do need to arrest them. We do. >> we do.
▶ 3:22:01But if we're continuously chasing our tails, it's like I said, if you if you arrest. >> I'd like to keep working with you because we've got to stop this. And so I would welcome that. If you put together a list that we can send to other governors and say, here's what we did, that's general. >> that's fantastic. >> congressman sessions, let me just say thank you for your question. I absolutely think there is more that all of us can do to protect the public dollar and get the money where it was intended to go. There are all kinds of ways to make sure. >> yes, but we're talking about the lessons learned.
▶ 3:22:30Are you going to show up today and and take, as the governor did and say we made a mistake. I own apology to people. We believe that what you've tried to do today to defend. I'm not trying to put you in a corner, general. I'm trying to get you because we're sitting here trying to get to where we're going to go. >> I can assure you, congressman, that I am here to work to improve this system. And there are improvements that can be made. And your offer to work on a bipartisan basis to solve this fraud crisis. I am all in.
▶ 3:22:59And if we could get to if we can get out of fixing the blame and get to fixing the problem, that would be an enormous thing for me and I and I thank you for asking. >> well, it's my hope that you will know that being here today, we're doing our job, other people doing their job, but we've got to get to where we can then say, and here is the problem and we'll take. So, governor, did I accept responsibility? And let's get on to fixing this, because tomorrow is a new day. Mr. chairman, I appreciate the time.
▶ 3:23:30Yes, sir. Back my time. >> thank you. Chair recognizes my friend, miss talib. >> he says that, but then he cuts me off. Um, thank you all for coming here. I think it's really important. And, you know, reverend, you, uh, I can tell that you care deeply about your community. And it takes courage to come before this committee. Uh, especially when you hear so much. Um, to me, just misinformation.
▶ 3:23:56Um, also embedded in racist tropes, uh, about your community. Um, and so I wanted to ask you, you know, I think a lot of americans, when we think about what compelled you to speak out and join hundreds of other faith leaders at the minnesota, um, the saint paul airport to protest against the violent ice occupation of your community. >> thank you for the question.
▶ 3:24:21I yes, I am here, uh, just as I was that day at the airport, because I am representative of so many minnesotans who are actively engaged in the work of neighboring. And I'm also here, as I was that day, because there are so many minnesotans for whom it is not safe to speak out today. >> and I'll tell you, uh, you know, we're learning a lot. I think the country, the whole country is learning a lot from all of you and your neighboring and showing love and showing up for your community.
▶ 3:24:50And I know it took a lot of courage for even some of the elected officials to stand up and say, you know, not on our watch. Um, you know, we talk about the fearlessness that is needed sometimes to fight for our rights. And some people will continue to gaslight folks and call us domestic terrorists, to surveil us more, to try to bully us and intimidate us to silence. And I just want the minnesota people to know. I know my district sees you all and we say, continue it.
▶ 3:25:15Uh, you are freeing all of us when you continue to speak up and you're protecting all of us as well. Um, in response to, of course, the powerful local resistance. You know, one of the things, um, they keep saying is it's ended. It's done. Um, you heard my colleague from boston, uh, congresswoman ayanna pressley, talk about trauma. It's not done. Uh, there needs to be a lot of healing. And I don't think they want to fund that or support that.
▶ 3:25:43But I'm asking just as myself and many of us in my district are wondering, is it truthful? Are they done? >> um. >> unfortunately, it's not over. As we heard, there are still 650 ice agents in minnesota. That means there is still fear and trauma for our children and for our immigrant and refugee neighbors. And and it. And as miss priestley named, the trauma will go on.
▶ 3:26:10And we have much work to do in healing and caring for, especially those who've been most victimized in this. >> so I want to talk about intention. What's the intent of this hearing? What's the intent of all of it? The intention is important because, you know, for the chairman, if I can submit, um, for the record, uh, article titled fraud focus, why is trump granting clemency to convicted fraudsters. >> without objection, so ordered? >> because I see this.
▶ 3:26:39And even though you're here, you have nothing to hide. These folks are not here. I don't get to question them. I don't get to say to the guy that committed $200 million medicare fraud who just got pardoned by trump, I don't get to ask jared kushner, you know, why is your dad go from literally in france? The title of the article is, uh, prison to paris, literally from committing fraud. He pardons, uh, his son in law's father, and now he's an ambassador.
▶ 3:27:07You see all that happening? It's like, well, what's the intention here? They're creating a world's largest paramilitary under the direct control of the president, who has made it clear that he intends to crush dissent, to crush dissent, target entire cities and rig elections. He literally is telling us he's going to send ice agents out on election day to intimidate and target our community. He's not lying. He's going to do it.
▶ 3:27:37And I think we need to be very, very much prepared. At the same time. Intention. Governor, I seen him, uh, in this administration freeze, funding freeze and blaming all of these people. Like, I hope people don't blame my community for everything trump's doing. Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean, can you imagine right now the impact that this is happening? What what I mean, can you what impact is it going to really have right now?
▶ 3:28:03I mean, you're talking about today, this is cut off and he's refusing to let go of the money that again minnesota, minnesota actually, uh, is supposed to rightfully get appropriated. >> 400,000 children lose health care. Pregnant women and elderly and rural hospitals will be severely impacted and potentially close. >> it's hard because I wonder if they would do that in kentucky, where they have fraud, in tennessee where they have fraud. >> their own numbers show that our error rate is 2.1%. The national average is 6%.
▶ 3:28:34>> I know you guys testified about it. Uh, attorney general, um, even though, you know, you gave everybody else 30s. I need to ask you. I mean, you're here today. What could you be doing right now? You're attorney general. What? Today, if you were at work instead of here, to be honest. I mean, can you explain what's back home that you have work to do at home? Like, what can you be doing instead? >> the one. >> microphone, please, mac.
▶ 3:29:02>> one thing I have is a medicaid fraud bill that I'm trying to get passed to increase. >> legislature is in session. >> the legislature is in session, and I'm supposed to meet with house caucus leaders tonight hoping to make that, uh, so that we can do more, uh, to stop fraud. Yeah. So that that's one thing I could be doing among 20 others. >> well, I'll tell you. You know, I'm always reminded. And please bear with me, chairman comber, our amazing, uh, you know, former chair, um, elijah cummings.
▶ 3:29:31First hearing I ever had as a freshman was on the high cost of prescription drugs. It was incredible. It was powerful. It was real. And the intent there was. Let's make sure people that get sick are taken care of. I'm just so tired of these hearings that are just politicized in a way that is not consistent. Because if he's doing this, why are you targeting an innocent people? Thank you. >> thank you, Mr. lieb. I gave you an extra minute and 15 seconds to criticize. Criticize the chairman of the committee. So, uh, but I do like Mr. lieb.
▶ 3:30:05Chair recognizes Mr. gill from texas. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to be here. Uh, governor walter, are you familiar with the early intensive developmental and behavioral intervention benefit? >> I am, congressman. >> got it. It's a provide services for autism patients. Is that right? >> that is correct. >> got it. And when were you when did you become governor? >> uh, in january of 2019. >> in 2019. Okay.
▶ 3:30:34So using 2018 as a baseline, do you know what that program paid, uh, in medicaid claims? >> I do not, congressman. >> it was about $671,000. Do you know what that program paid in medicaid claims in 2024? >> I don't have the number in front of me. >> three, $342 million. That's about a 500 x increase over six years, where there was there a 500 times the number of autism patients. Uh, in that time period.
▶ 3:31:03>> I couldn't speak specifically to it. But I will say, congressman, that. >> that doesn't sound reasonable, right? You don't think that was a 500 increase in the number of autism? No, I think in six years. Right. >> correct. And that's why we ordered on site visits starting back. >> so we so we agree that that that doesn't sound reasonable. Would you also agree that a single taxpayer dollar wasted on fraud is a dollar too much to tolerate? >> yes. >> yep. And would you agree that as governor, ultimately you're responsible if tax dollars are defrauded? >> yes, I would agree.
▶ 3:31:34>> would you also agree that calling somebody racist is a serious accusation? >> if they are racist? I think it's. >> I'm asking you, is that a serious accusation to make about somebody? >> I think it's just an observation of reality. >> all right, well, let's go there. Is it racist for for a government official to identify fraud? >> no, no. >> is it islamophobic. >> to identify fraud?
▶ 3:32:04>> no, I don't believe it would be. >> how how come multiple whistleblowers have said that your administration told them not to say anything about widespread fraud across multiple agencies, because doing so would be considered racist or islamophobic? >> I can't speak to it because it's not anything I would say. >> well, that's what your administration has said and has told whistleblowers. And as you just testified, the buck stops with you. That's what you stated in your, uh, in your statement when you announced you weren't running again. Are you familiar with faye bernstein?
▶ 3:32:36>> I yes, I'm familiar with the name. >> she's a democrat, isn't she? >> I wouldn't know that. >> she stated publicly that she's a democrat. She's only voted democrat in in her life. Um, she's also stated publicly that she was retaliated against and called racist and that her work responsibilities were diminished whenever she was highlighting fraud within your administration. Are you familiar with that? >> I couldn't speak to. >> why do you. >> think she would allegation? >> why do you think she would say that? >> I can't speak for what? >> you have no idea.
▶ 3:33:06>> I do not. >> you would. You would agree that the tone in your administration comes from from you ultimately. Right. >> the tone is that. >> the tone of how you might deal with whistleblowers. >> right. And we protect them. Right? >> it doesn't sound like you're you're protecting them. We heard from representative kristin robbins quote, we have dozens of credible whistleblower reports saying the exact same thing, that people were told not to say anything because they'd be called racist or islamophobic or it would hurt the state. Do you think it's racist or islamophobic to highlight and try to stop fraud? >> it is not. And I certainly.
▶ 3:33:38>> it's not. But that was the message your administration was sending to multiple whistleblowers. >> I can't speak to that. You know, you don't want to speak to that. I think. >> I have I have over 40,000 employees against pardon me. >> do you think whistleblowers should be retaliated against? >> absolutely not. They have strong protections in minnesota and lots of paths. And the passcode. >> that's what we're hearing from whistleblowers. Faye bernstein, who again has stated that she is a democrat. She's only ever voted democrat, says. >> that doesn't matter whether she's democrat or republican.
▶ 3:34:08>> campaign for trying to make leadership aware of illegal contracting practices. Why do you think that happened? >> I can't speak to that, congressman, because we don't do it and you. >> just don't you don't know anything. >> I do know that it that we don't we have strong whistleblower protections and I can't speak. >> that's not what the whistleblowers are saying. But according to another report, quote, there's just a continuous effort to stifle you, to shut you up. And it's impossible to overcome.
▶ 3:34:32Your administration's response to whistleblowers has also been described as, quote, nearly unbearable retaliation. We've heard claims that, quote, they've been denied vacations, promotions and that it's hurt people's careers to speak out against fraud. Do you think that that had something to do with with the prevalence of fraud in your administration? >> I can't speak to it, but are you going. >> to take responsibility for this? >> I certainly I supervise 40,000 employees, state agencies who supervise. >> a lot of a lot of employees.
▶ 3:35:01And and as you have said, the buck stops with you and your administration has treated whistleblowers like absolute dirt. And that's a big reason why we've seen so much of our hard earned tax dollars defrauded. >> there's look, congressman, I told you, we have strong protections. We have the an office of office of legislative auditor. >> to nearly 30 whistleblowers. >> and they came.
▶ 3:35:22>> to the current employees in your administration who have intimate knowledge of what's been going on, who have all stated that they faced retaliation for calling out fraud. >> I can't speak to them. What they felt at. >> the time is up, I yield back. >> recognizes miss ansari. >> Mr. chairman, it's outrageous that this is what we're choosing to spend our time on, on the oversight committee at the first one. >> fraud. >> at the first one. Yes. Fraud.
▶ 3:35:51Because let's talk about fraud at the first one of these ridiculous series of hearings on minnesota, I brought up the dozens of horrific ongoing corruption scandals in the trump administration. But I know very scared of donald trump. So we won't be talking about those. But those are the things that we should be investigating on the oversight committee. Now we have another one. The department of justice was caught red handed with holding explosive and credible fbi witness interviews of a woman who accused donald trump of sexually assaulting her when she was a minor.
▶ 3:36:21Shouldn't we hold a hearing on that? Shouldn't pam bondi be here forced to testify why she is violating the law that congress passed the epstein files transparency act nearly unanimously, along with this committee's subpoena? But since the republican majority instead wants to have a conversation about minnesota, then let's do that. The trump epstein regime's deployment of thousands of ice agents, donald trump's personal secret police force is a fascist disgrace.
▶ 3:36:53These untrained agents terrorize the people of minnesota, violated their rights, and even shot them dead in the streets. I want to remind us all about what happened to alex. Preeti, an intensive care nurse murdered by cbp agents while trying to protect a woman that the officers were assaulting after his murder.
▶ 3:37:14Stephen miller said alex was, quote, a domestic terrorist who tried to assassinate federal law enforcement, a would be assassin and an assassin. Kristi noem said alex was, quote, committing an act of domestic terrorism. She said, I don't know any peaceful protester that shows up with a gun and ammunition rather than a sign.
▶ 3:37:38She accused alex of brandishing a weapon, despite video evidence showing the gun never left its holster. Greg bovino said, quote, this looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement. And donald trump said alex was, quote, a gunman whose weapon was loaded with two additional full magazines and ready to go.
▶ 3:38:02He said alex was an agitator and perhaps an insurrectionist, obviously projecting about himself. Dictators in other countries would literally be impressed at how brazen these lies and propaganda spread by the trump regime and kristi noem are. So, governor walz, I want to thank you and attorney general ellison for putting up with all of the lying and hypocrisy from the republican majority governor.
▶ 3:38:31Is the trump administration attempting to block minnesota state and local police from investigating the murders of alex and renee? Nicole. Renee? Nicole. Good. >> I believe we're not getting any cooperation. We were told we would not be part of that. Attorney general may know more. >> yes, congresswoman, we have been told that we would not have access to, uh, investigative file, which would include, uh, evidence that would be relevant to the investigation in both cases.
▶ 3:39:02And even there's one case shooting incident that does where that was not fatal. And that one has also been we've been frozen out in that way as well. >> so to follow. >> had to go to court to get the evidence preserved. >> okay. And two follow up questions on whichever one of you wants to answer. Why do you think that might be the case? And is this out of the ordinary? >> it is wildly out of the ordinary.
▶ 3:39:26Uh, I can tell you that our local fbi, atf, even before operation metro surge, you didn't you know, you you heard about ice matters, but you didn't hear about it nearly as much as we do now. This is extraordinary departure from what we know. And we routinely work with federal partners, and we haven't never had problems until now like this. >> I would just speculate that they need to take accountability for it.
▶ 3:39:54And I think they understood what the world saw, that this was improper. And it needs to have justice for these families. And it doesn't appear. I hope those questions are being asked of, uh, secretary noem today. >> and governor walz and attorney general ellison, are you committed to getting to the truth about the murders of alex and renee? Good. >> absolutely. Yes. >> yes. I pledge to their families. We do that. >> thank you.
▶ 3:40:18We need to hold this administration accountable for these murders, starting by impeaching kristi noem for gross misconduct, lying to congress, and failure to uphold the laws and the constitution, I yield back. >> chair recognizes Mr. grothman from wisconsin. >> thank you. Will go for governor walz again. Um, a major focus of today's hearings been the misuse of federal funds distributed through the child care and development block grant.
▶ 3:40:44This program is supposed to be helping working families afford child care. And I think the taxpayers expect these programs to be protected from waste and fraud. Most programs most states operate these programs responsibly. The national improper payment average is about 4%. Um, as you know, I kind of watch what's going on in minnesota because it's a state adjacent to wisconsin.
▶ 3:41:10Um, it's amazing if you're a congressman, the number of people who get minnesota and wisconsin confused, uh, but when that number climbs above the national average of 4%, it should be a warning sign that oversight has failed. Minnesota's improper payment rate got up to 11%. That's not a small administrative mistake. Over almost three times the national average. That is a system that's clearly not being monitored the way it should be.
▶ 3:41:38When wisconsin had a similar program several years ago, when I was in the state legislature in 2010, we uncovered fraud in our child care assistance program. Wisconsin did not look away. We took responsibility, implemented serious reforms, and those reforms included expanding background checks for providers, creating a dedicated fraud investigative investigation unit, strengthening eligibility requirements, and instituting a comprehensive audit system.
▶ 3:42:05Uh, that would have been scott walker was governor. Because of these reforms, wisconsin now has an improper payment of under 1%. So, in other words, we almost totally wiped out the problem didn't happen by accident. It happened because governor walker took responsibility and acted quickly. He thought fraud was a problem. Uh, governor waltz, minnesota had similar warning signs.
▶ 3:42:29Investigators, auditors, even internal officials kept raising concerns about fraud in social service systems. And it didn't just cost taxpayers money. These programs are meant to help children and working families. When fraud drains millions of dollars from these programs, that money is not reaching the people it was intended to serve. First of all, governor walz, when you're when did your administration first become aware that fraud risks were escalating in minnesota's child care assistance program?
▶ 3:42:58You were kind of an outlier in the whole country. >> well, thank you, congressman. This dates back to about 2012. Um, the action has been being taken. And as I stated earlier, on our first days in office, we started taking action. I would ask if I could on this anything that governor walker did, I would appreciate if you'd show us what those actions were. We're more than happy to implement them, and that's what we've started over the last seven years. >> reports indicate that some providers continued receiving payments even after the fraud concerns were raised.
▶ 3:43:27Was that a decision made by your administration, and who specifically you feel did not? >> I can't speak specifically to which those were. Decisions are made at the department level, but I can't speak to what those allegations were. >> we're told it was still 11%, uh, under your administration, when fraud indicators appear in a program funded by federal taxpayers, do you believe the responsibility?
▶ 3:43:53The responsible action is to pause payments until those concerns are investigated? >> I don't think it's that simple. As I said, these programs provide a really important service in child care is a critical one, that the issue is trying to make sure the legitimate payments are made and that you're stopping fraud. So I don't think in all cases that that pausing those payments is the right action. >> okay.
▶ 3:44:14Just in general, I'll say when the fraud, when the fraud percentage reached 11% in minnesota and we got it down under 1% in wisconsin, um, I think it's a cause for concern. I'll give you another question, because a little bit of this hearing wandered a little bit to what happened, uh, in your streets out there when, um, any agency comes to wisconsin, any federal agency. I've talked to several of our sheriffs.
▶ 3:44:40Uh, could be ice, could be bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms. Could be fbi, could be secret service. Our sheriffs always try to coordinate with the federal agencies, ask them what they need. You need to set up a perimeter. Can we help you by transporting people to the local jail? Do you just want some squad cars parked around? Uh, to, to make to presumably keep troublemakers at bay? Uh, that was not done in minnesota.
▶ 3:45:11Like it's routinely done in certainly all the. >> I don't think that's correct characterization. I think tom homan indicated that those things do happen. Um, and have been happening, uh. >> during the time in which you had the serious riots or whatever you want to call them in minnesota.
▶ 3:45:28Um, I believe that you did not reach out for your state law enforcement to help out, uh, federal law enforcement, in part because your sanctuary state. >> and that is incorrect. Tom homan indicated we are not. I don't know what to tell you, congressman. We we did. We we want to cooperate. That's not what you saw on the streets, right? >> right. We did not see cooperation. >> you saw ice agents shooting people in the head.
▶ 3:45:57You saw little children being drug out. You saw ice agents indiscriminately throwing smoke grenades. And I think what the world saw was peaceful resistance and a defense of their neighbors. So this is not about immigration reform. This was about an untrained force that came in not with the intention of immigration.
▶ 3:46:15>> um, I would say that you did not have the, uh, the interaction between local law enforcement and federal agencies that is routinely seen around the country. Thank you. >> gentleman yields back. Chair. Mr. brown. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. 13 months, 13 months into the trump administration and this committee has failed to hold one hearing or one open investigation to hold this president accountable.
▶ 3:46:45It makes you wonder, are we the oversight committee or the overlook committee, because there is no shortage of matters that demand our attention. I can share a few that come to mind. This is a president who has turned the white house into an atm. And in trump's washington, the fastest path to a pardon or a position is to donate to trump's ballroom or inauguration.
▶ 3:47:10Last year, the trump family added billions to its net worth through pay for play schemes and corrupt deals. Last month, the president surged ice into minneapolis in an abusive operation that led to american deaths and repeated violations of constitutional rights under the first, fourth and fifth amendments.
▶ 3:47:32Also last month, the administration struck shady oil deals after the administration invaded venezuela. Two weeks ago, the president blocked a michigan bridge from opening after he reportedly lobbied was reportedly lobbied by a wealthy businessman who owns a competing bridge.
▶ 3:47:52Last week, the president launched a war on iran without the consent of congress, without an imminent threat to our safety and without any plan presented to the american people. And right now, hour by hour, this administration is engaging in an active and egregious cover up of the epstein files. Yet today, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are once again showing they are more interested in partizan politics than good governance.
▶ 3:48:21If you are serious about fraud, you investigate it, you prosecute it. You strengthen safeguards to prevent it. What you don't do is weaponize it. You don't denigrate entire communities with racist smears. You don't unleash abusive enforcement actions that undermine trust and due process. You don't illegally cut off all medicaid funding, which will lead to innocent and sick americans dying, dying.
▶ 3:48:48And you don't fire inspector generals and push out career prosecutors actively working to defeat that fraud. So ag ellison, the us attorney's office in minnesota, has at least six prosecutors resigned due to the chaos isis caused. Can you briefly describe how these resignations have affected our ability to prosecute fraud? >> thank you, congresswoman.
▶ 3:49:16And in fact, it's a great deal more than six than six prosecutors, many more than that. In fact, one of the prosecutors who resigned in protest was one of the ones who helped to lead the the prosecution of the feeding our future defendants. And that's to they've 57 have been convicted. So the loss of those people is dramatically harming our effort to prosecute fraud, because in minnesota, we have 87 county attorneys.
▶ 3:49:43The ag does medicaid fraud, and the federal government prosecutes fraud that is germane in its jurisdiction. It operates as a web together. So it's not like the the feds are doing it and nobody else is. They're doing the ones they supposed to do. We're doing the ones we supposed to do, and the counties are doing the ones they supposed to do. If you take the feds out, that leaves an enormous gap. And it and it means and criminals are shrewd.
▶ 3:50:12I mean, the reality is that fraudsters are pretty smart and some of them are clever and know that if there's nobody going, if there's no federal prosecutors numbers are depleted, you're going to see worse behavior. And I do fear that, which is one of the reasons why we need to pass stronger legislation in minnesota to help my office prosecute medicaid fraud. >> thank you. And there's deeper hypocrisy here.
▶ 3:50:39Donald trump was found guilty by a jury of his peers on 34 felony counts of fraud. He has pardoned a businessman convicted of defrauding a native american tribe to the tune of $60 million. He has pardoned a florida ceo convicted of running $1.3 billion medicare and medicaid fraud scheme scheme. He has pardoned a nursing home executive who pleaded guilty to a $38 million tax scheme. I could go on and on.
▶ 3:51:07In fact, over half of the president's pardons have been for wire fraud, securities fraud, tax fraud, bank fraud and health care fraud. And several of these pardons have come after massive political contributions to the president. In many cases, these pardons meant victims will never see a dime of restitution. House judiciary committee democrats estimate the pardons for fraud related crimes could deprive victims of more than $1 billion owed to them and american taxpayers.
▶ 3:51:36So this president is pardoning his wealthy donors and taking money out of the pockets of hard working americans. He is handing out get out of jail free cards to fraudsters while shamelessly using fraud as a pretext to go after perceived political enemies. What I believe is simple whether you are a president, a billionaire or a regular american who has committed fraud, you should be held accountable. And with that, I yield back. >> gentleman. Yields back. Chair. Mr. palmer from alabama.
▶ 3:52:10>> thank you, Mr. chairman, for holding this hearing. I appreciate the witnesses being here. I do want to respond to something that was said earlier by one of my colleagues across the aisle about fraud and alabama and and the different and he actually raised the question, why isn't the governor of alabama here? It's very simple. Alabama actually did something about the fraud and snap benefits. Uh, we acted on that immediately.
▶ 3:52:34Uh, I would argue that if the state of minnesota had done done that, this hearing wouldn't be necessary. So, um, I want to ask you, governor waltz, is it true that your department of education was sued by feeding our future for racial discrimination in approving food sites? >> I don't know exactly what they were sued for, but I know there was a suit. >> uh, then the department of education have serious concerns about fraud, though, and feeding our future and their sites as far back as 2020.
▶ 3:53:06>> that's correct. Congressman. They brought it to the attention of the usda. >> and then your department of education determined there was fraud occurring because of incredibly large, implausible reimbursement request. >> well, I think at the time, during the covid pandemic, there was how these meals were being delivered and what safeguards because, as you know, the usda changed the rules on these to make it easier for food to get out.
▶ 3:53:30>> one of the one of the fraudsters fraudsters sites, safari restaurant, claimed that they served the same number of meals in one month as the entire saint paul school district. Uh, in their transcribed interview, your commissioner of education said that this would be impossible. Uh, governor waltz, you're an educator.
▶ 3:53:53Is it plausible for a single restaurant whose owner has already been convicted and is in jail for fraud, was actually serving that number of meals? >> I think that's why he went to prison, if I'm not mistaken. >> but the question would be why didn't the state of minnesota that was wasn't that a federal conviction? >> it was turned over by the state. It was a state that found it. It was. The folks at the department of education turned it over with our federal partners. They prosecuted them.
▶ 3:54:20>> well, when we had the hearing with the state legislators, I mean, without exception, they all testified that, um, that they were bringing this to the attention of the state and the state wasn't doing anything about it. >> that those legislators run the committee oversight committee. They never held a single hearing until just very recently. And the chairwoman of that committee is running for governor. So I can't speak to why, but I can tell you that we certainly. >> tried to politicize this, something that was reported years ago.
▶ 3:54:48I mean, you could argue that she anticipated that you would resign or retire or however you want to characterize it, but I doubt that was the case. I think I want to be as respectful as I can be. And, you know, we've served together. I'm not one of these guys that's trying to score political points. Uh, I try to solve problems, but I don't think we can.
▶ 3:55:10We can have a transference here of intention, uh, for, uh, one legislator that you say is running for governor when when these issues were raised years ago. >> and prosecuted years ago. >> well, not all of them, uh, because the fraud continued, and it's run into the billions of dollars now.
▶ 3:55:31I mean, the two guys, the two people that were convicted in federal court, that was $250 million that we now know that that this has gone into the billions. And the question and I again. >> congressman, can you tell me where where the evidence is on the 9 billion? Because we're looking for we're doing what we can. I mean, all the local press and all the folks in minnesota are saying that's not the case.
▶ 3:55:55We certainly, you know, if every dollar you put out there, if you say it could be fraud, but there's there's there's no evidence to that. And the problem with that is and this story came out last week, people in the us attorney's office said, when you're putting out these numbers that aren't true, it undermines our ability to tackle the actual fraud. >> I'm not I didn't say 9 billion. I said that I think it's run into the billions. And it's not just in minnesota again, um, we've had during covid.
▶ 3:56:21The fraud was massive throughout the country, particularly in the payroll protection plan and the enhanced unemployment. The, uh, I think it begs the question, Mr. chairman, why, uh, we haven't been more aggressive in going after this all over the country. Uh, the fraud that was mentioned by my colleague was, was snap benefits, and that's in california, his own state. It's $180 million. But to california's credit, they're doing something about it.
▶ 3:56:49Uh, so that's the issue here. Uh, I'm not interested in scoring political points. I'm trying to stop the fraud. I appreciate that to get to a place where the public at the state and federal, uh, in terms of state and federal spending has confidence, uh, that we're properly managing the money and wherever fraud occurs, that we're aggressively pursuing it, that I think that's the question that's been raised about how your administration handled this, that. Mr. chairman, I yield back.
▶ 3:57:21>> I just say that's fair enough. Congressman, I think that spirit is what we're trying to get at. I do think it's nationwide. I think we should share information. Um, I think we're being as aggressive as possible, but fair enough. >> Mr. chairman, I'd like to seek recognition for a unanimous consent request. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a june 17th, 2025 memorandum from the house judiciary committee.
▶ 3:57:41Democrats titled house judiciary committee democrats memorandum regarding president trump's pardons cheat victims out of an astounding $1.3 billion in restitution and fines, allowing fraudsters, tax evaders, drug traffickers and key to keep to keep ill gotten gains, which estimates the I'm sorry, which estimates that trump's reckless pardons rob victims and left let perpetrators walk away without paying $1.3 million in restitution.
▶ 3:58:12>> without objection. So ordered. Chair recognizes miss stansbury from new mexico. >> good morning. Good afternoon as it is, Mr. chairman. Thank you for having this hearing. I know it's been a long morning for everyone here as witnesses today, and it's been a long several months for the people of minnesota. We thank you for your service.
▶ 3:58:31Now, let me just start by saying at the beginning of my comments here, what I said at the beginning of the last hearing that we had on this exact same subject, which is that we must unequivocally root out waste, fraud and abuse and prosecute any crimes wherever they happen, whether those crimes are happening in social service programs at the state level, or whether we have an out of control president and administration that is committing crimes, waste, fraud and abuse inside the white
▶ 3:59:01House and within our federal agencies, including deploying thousands of armed agents into our communities using per diems that are costing millions of taxpayer dollars every day to terrorize our communities, to violate their civil rights, to violate due process rights, and that have resulted in the murder of two us citizens.
▶ 3:59:20And so my question is, why are we not conducting oversight over that to us citizens that have been murdered by the federal government? Renee. Good. A minneapolis mom murdered alex pretty and minneapolis, va nurse murdered nuru nurul amin shah alam, a partially blind refugee in buffalo, new york,
▶ 3:59:51Dead after being left in a parking lot by dhs without even a pair of shoes on the kidnaping of children like leon, liam ramos and an administration that has launched an unauthorized war in the middle east. With six service members dead and over 160 school children and their teachers dead and buried.
▶ 4:00:22Yesterday. Never in my life have I seen a greater disregard for the constitution, for the rule of law, for the carelessness for human life and basic human dignity and senseless cruelty that I have seen in this administration, whether that is at home or abroad. And they can't answer the most basic questions about why.
▶ 4:00:50And meanwhile, people who should be investigating these crimes are partying and drinking on taxpayer dollars. We've got the us doj ag refusing to release the epstein files, or even acknowledge their basic human dignity. And yesterday, the secretary of dhs, testifying and lying under oath in the united states senate, refusing to acknowledge alex and renee nicole goode's death.
▶ 4:01:22It's murder and the harm that she personally has caused by calling it domestic terrorism. That is what we should be investigating. And the billions of taxpayer dollars that are being used to support this cruelty and out of control administration. Now, I know it's been a long day, and Mr. ellis and I know you have had a long day especially. I want to say thank you for your service, governor.
▶ 4:01:49You have inspired the nation by helping to organize, along with the faith community, our communities in resistance and strength. And I agree with you, reverend, that silence is complicity, and that is why we have to speak. And so, Mr. ellison, I just want to ask you one question. What do you think congress should be investigating? What should we be investigating here today?
▶ 4:02:16>> congresswoman, I'd be very grateful if the committee really dug into the use of force policy at ice. I think it needs greater training. I think it needs clearly better guidelines. I think there needs to be a policy of cooperation between state and federal investigators in the fbi. And I think there should be a general policy that leaders not make statements about blame or guilt.
▶ 4:02:44Uh, you know, immediately after the tragedy. And they should try to wait and figure out what actually happened before they make those kind of statements that you identified. >> thank you, ag, and I'll just say this. I've heard a lot of political theater here today. I think it's disgraceful. Our job is the oversight committee. Our job is to oversee the administration and the agencies that it executes on. And we are failing the american people, and this administration is failing the world.
▶ 4:03:13With that, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. I might add that it's my understanding the homeland security committee is investigating, uh, the two deaths in minnesota. Chair now recognizes Mr. fallon from texas. >> thank you. Chairman. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Governor waltz, do you believe the 70,000. >> strong somali community as a whole has made a positive impact on your state? I do.
▶ 4:03:39So you'd be the opinion fair to say that the somali community has successfully assimilated and is making minnesota better? >> yeah, I believe they're on that path. Yes. >> I'm just curious by what metric you come to that conclusion. I just looked at some hard data. And do you have any idea the what percentage of the native born minnesotans all races live in poverty in your state right now? >> I don't have specifically. >> I'll share it with you. It's 8% for the somali community. It's 52%. How about receiving food stamps? I don't know, I'll run it down with you at 7%.
▶ 4:04:08And then, uh, and compared to 54% in the somali community and then, uh, don't have or have it, don't have it. At least a high school diploma for all minnesotans, it's 5% somali community. It's 39% one family member at least, uh, on medicaid, it's 18% for minnesota, 73% for the somali community and receiving welfare of some form, it's 21%, and it's 81% for the somali community.
▶ 4:04:35Governor, do you happen to know what the percentages of all those who have currently been charged in this staggering social services fraud scheme were native born minnesotans? What percentage? >> I do not have that. >> I think it was 85 out of 98, which comes out to 13%, uh, minnesotan and 87% somali minnesotan. So I think this is an instance, perhaps, of where we'll get swept by data. Uh, governor, there's been billions stolen over seven plus years right under your nose. And really, there's only two explanations. It's either you were in on it or you weren't smart enough to, uh, to see it.
▶ 4:05:07It's either criminal negligence or wild incompetence. And the only way this kind of fraud can reach this scale is if there's people in power that are colluding and collaborating and willfully blinding themselves to the realities around them, and oversight. When we do investigations, it's rare for us to have whistleblowers because it's they face retribution and punishment and resentment, and they can be ostracized. And it's difficult and it's uncomfortable, and sometimes it's even dangerous.
▶ 4:05:36So when we have when we're having an investigation and we have even a couple of whistleblowers, it's very valuable to us because they provide invaluable insight. Do you have any idea how many whistleblowers are working from minnesota or working with the oversight committee? >> I do not. We have our own strong protections in the ola, the independent. >> it's 30. I mean, I haven't seen that in five plus years in congress.
▶ 4:06:0030 governor on september 16th, 2025, did you, uh, announce your reelection bid? >> pardon me. >> on september 16th last year, did you? >> I don't know the exact date. >> in september, roughly the fall last year. Did you announce you're running for governor again? >> yeah, I believe that's correct. >> okay. And I think you said, and I quote here, we've made historic progress, but we're not done yet. And then just three and a half months later, on january 5th, you dropped out. I gotta ask you why.
▶ 4:06:28I mean, were you tired of making historic progress? >> no, congressman, I think I've done the job for two terms. And I said, talking with my family, and I said, I want to focus on doing the job. >> not have anything to do with this epic, historic, awful fraud. >> it has everything to do with trying to do the job right for minnesota. >> the facts are your leadership and really your lack of leadership is. Laura has been responsible for one of the largest rip offs of the american taxpayer in our history. And you traded.
▶ 4:06:53I believe, uh, political expediency, the currency of political expediency, uh, for your integrity. And, you know, Mr. chairman, I don't know if you know this, but it's widely it's been widely reported that in 2008, when barack obama was choosing his vice presidential candidate, he had three criteria. He wanted to make sure he picked somebody that wasn't as smart as him and had less talent and charisma and couldn't possibly outshine him. So he picked joe biden.
▶ 4:07:21And then joe biden in 2020 used the exact same criteria he wanted to make sure he picked somebody, wasn't as smart as him, had less talent and charisma and wouldn't outshine him. And he picked kamala harris. And then in 2020, for governor, I think it's very evident why kamala harris picked you. The talent pool chairman. Mr. chairman, the talent pool is shallow, brother. We have hit the shore and I yield back. >> gentleman yields back.
▶ 4:07:49Chair recognizes Mr. silverman. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chair. Uh, I have some concerns about not just the tactics of ice and minnesota and everywhere. I have concerns about the fact that renee. Good. And alex were killed, and there has been no real investigation by, uh, federal law enforcement and federal authorities.
▶ 4:08:14And, uh, so I would ask, uh, attorney general ellison, do you know of if the fbi is actually investigating what happened? >> thank you for the question, congressman.
▶ 4:08:26To the information we have is that there was an affirmative statement by deputy ag, deputy ag, todd blanchard that they were not investigating there in a good matter on the alex, we received information that that was similar and that there might be an investigation, but that the state would be excluded. So in the first one, they're not doing an investigation and we can't have the information.
▶ 4:08:54And the second one, they might be doing an investigation and the state cannot be part of it. >> and I know this is asking for your opinion, but why do you think they would want to exclude the state and alex, the investigation? >> well, you know, I don't want to speculate as to what somebody's motives might be, but I can just tell you this. It is a sharp departure from the norm.
▶ 4:09:15Normally, we investigate these things jointly, and when somebody doesn't want another investigator there, sometimes you you might wonder if there's something that they don't want to come out. >> and it's my understanding that the federal government is better positioned to do such an investigation and, uh, to be able to prosecute such crimes because there might be federal immunity.
▶ 4:09:42Uh, my understanding, agents are typically immune from state prosecution if their actions were directly tied to official duties. What is your understanding of that? >> so my understanding starts with the supremacy clause in the us constitution. And then there's a line of cases. The first one is something called in ray nagel. And then there's a number of cases after that.
▶ 4:10:00What it says is that if a federal agent commits a, arguably commits a crime and is indicted or charged, that the, uh, that agent, the federal agent, would have a affirmative defense of saying that I was doing my job and I was doing it in a necessary and proper way. What I was doing was necessary and proper. If they could meet both of those criteria, a court might grant their motion to dismiss. If they cannot, the matter is going to face a jury.
▶ 4:10:31And matter of fact, there was a case involving. You may remember the case involving randy weaver in idaho. Uh, that case actually was cleared by the ninth circuit to go to trial. Uh, but the local authorities decided not to pursue it. >> and to prosecute renee. Good. And, alex, you would need evidence, right? Has the fbi or anyone given you or been able to cooperate with you on any evidence in this case? >> the the. No.
▶ 4:10:59At this point, they have precluded the state from access to the evidence. But there's a lot of other evidence out there. Uh, and we're also pursuing all options to get access to the evidence. >> do you think with what you have now, you could you could prosecute renee and alex at the state level? >> I think theoretically it would be. It's possible, but I, I would think it would be imprudent until you see the federal file because, you know, when you're a prosecutor, you should know the whole file.
▶ 4:11:26You should have you should have evaluated all the evidence before you make a charging decision or bring a matter to the grand jury. >> uh, because my concern here is that not only are these terrible things happening to us citizens, but there's no accountability, right? There's no mechanism there. There's a cover up for for the people who are at ice and other law enforcement who do the wrong thing. And it's making everyone at those agencies look bad.
▶ 4:11:57It's making our country look bad and the international stage. And so, you know, we have legislation at the federal level. Uh, I'm a co-sponsor of the stop excessive force and immigration act. We're trying to do things tangibly to make things better. We need some support on the other side of the aisle, but certainly we're going to push forward anyway. Uh, I guess I would end by saying, what would you ask congress to do to to help get the accountability that we're looking for? And I'll ask any either one.
▶ 4:12:24>> I think that for, uh, for anyone republican or democrat hoping to get public trust restored to immigration agents, there must be clear protocols regarding recruitment, training and protocols on the use of force. There must be an investigation. States must be involved, and there's more to be discussed. >> uh, governor waltz, you have five seconds.
▶ 4:12:52>> I would agree with the attorney general that it's about restoring faith, that people don't trust what they're doing, and we need them to be able to do their job. >> thank you, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. I'll now recognize Mr. burleson from missouri and then Mr. timmons from south carolina. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. >> governor waltz, um we already know that the minnesota medical assistance gives taxpayer dollars to people that are not here legally illegal aliens.
▶ 4:13:17And we know that in large part, um, your sanctuary city policies or sanctuary state policies have exacerbated the fraud that we are seeing in minnesota. Um, we know that just from conservative estimates alone, that when the biden during the biden administration, we had an estimated 15 million people come here illegally within your state alone.
▶ 4:13:42The estimates from the migration institute and pew research is that it's at least 130,000 people that are here illegally. Um, and we know that $250 million was stolen for the feeding our futures program. Are you familiar with the fact that those working for the program and individuals later convicted of fraudulent crimes met with Mr. ellison in the what what has been talked about the the recorded conversation?
▶ 4:14:12>> I believe the attorney general just testified to that. Yes. >> um, it was a 54 minute conversation. And in it, the conversation was recorded and as an audio file secured by there was a request to get that information. Um, he can clearly be heard pledging his support to individuals who would soon become, um, his family's campaign donors and later feeding our future criminal defendants.
▶ 4:14:40The ask occurs around minute 4330. Um, specifically, the request for him is in the ag statutory role as the attorney for state agencies to intervene on behalf of these frauds. And at 4426, um, Mr. ellison assures the fraudsters, quote unquote, of course, I'm here to help.
▶ 4:15:04And for 45 minute mark, he says, quote unquote, let's go fight these people, these people, meaning the agencies that were looking into the fraud. Have you listened to this audio? >> uh, today was the first time I've heard it. I'm familiar with it, and I don't know if I can validate that characterization. >> if this is true. Do you have concerns?
▶ 4:15:31>> uh, I'm not going to speculate on, uh, I, like I said, I can't characterize what it was. >> certainly you've heard the allegations that that, um, that Mr. ellison was working with individuals and would like to try to, that people were trying to reach out to him to try to avoid any kind of prosecution. >> I don't know if I characterize it like that. I don't I couldn't do that. >> how would you characterize it? >> I don't know, I wasn't there, I just heard the clip you had. >> how much fraudulent money has been recovered?
▶ 4:16:03>> oh, I don't have the number in front of me, but. >> I've heard the highest number is 80 million. I mean. >> that that could be. I can't verify that. >> so it's reported that it's at most it's $80 million. And as we know, the amount, um, that has been attributed to fraud in minnesota alone is estimated, I think on the low end, the conservative side is 9 billion. I think the trump administration says 19 billion. >> congressman, I don't I don't see anything to show that. But what I've acknowledged is $1 is too much.
▶ 4:16:31I think the local people and the folks who are taking account of this show, it just at about 271 million. >> do you think the effort to return the money has been successful? >> I can't I can't speak to that. I don't I don't have any part in that. >> I think that, um, returning 80 million out of a, let's say, assume it's just 9 billion, which would be point or it would be 0 or 0.08%. Less than 1% of the money has been has been gotten.
▶ 4:17:00>> congressman, no one's saying the 9 billion other than a potential for that. And that would mean every dollar that's out there. And I think that was characterized last week by the us attorney's office as saying that that caused problems because there's no evidence to back that up. But I want to be clear that doesn't make it any better. I just want to be clear. I hear you right on the 300 million. >> there's more work. Would you agree? There's more work to do if you're 1% or less than 1%, there's more work to do. >> I think if it's 99%, there's more work to do.
▶ 4:17:28>> um, last week you stated to the press that you have fired people who weren't doing their jobs. Is that correct? >> what I stated was, is that people have been put into new positions, that we remove people from positions. >> you did not fire anyone. >> people stepped away. >> shuffled the decks on the titanic. >> I think they left. They left the they left state government. >> okay, alright. Thank you, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes Mr. timmons and then mcguire. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 4:17:57And thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Uh, governor walz, under your leadership, minnesota has become the poster boy of fraud in america. Between the feeding our future scheme, uh, and massive widespread fraud and autism and child care programs, your tenure will be defined by immense negligence costing taxpayers at least hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars in 2019.
▶ 4:18:19In the first months of your administration, your legislative auditor found serious weaknesses in the child care assistance program, including inadequate attendance verification. Repeat bad actors cycling through the system, weak enforcement, and employees who feared retaliation for raising concerns. Those warnings were specific, they were actionable, and they were documented. And you were already in office at this time. If, as you say, the buck stops with you.
▶ 4:18:48Uh, governor, it's unclear when the buck actually stopped. In your written testimony, you listed multiple actions you have taken to curb fraud. Yet clearly they were insufficient as minnesota ended up with 14 medicaid programs deemed high risk, representing over $18 billion in spending. The buck didn't stop when whistleblowers were silenced years ago. It only stopped when you realized the fraudsters were drawing attention from people that you couldn't intimidate into silence. Fraud of this magnitude. Magnitude does not happen overnight.
▶ 4:19:17It builds slowly and it's the result of institutional failures and poor leadership. So, governor, my question is simple. If the buck stopped with you, as you said, who failed between 2019 and 2022, and why were they not held accountable? >> who failed in what? Congressman. >> this fraud has been growing until recently, and you've been governor for many years. >> no. Well, thank you for the question, congressman. And I would I would disagree with your characterization, obviously.
▶ 4:19:46And, uh, the legislative auditor, I don't know what the time period they investigate. Those are usually come months after they did it. We took office in january of 2019 and immediately started acting on what those ola, the office of legislative auditor, independent branch, started asking us to do, where we started changing the programs. >> that's not what the record reflects. The record reflects that there were all of these whistleblowers, and they were being intimidated because alleged racism was the motivation behind the degree of enforcement.
▶ 4:20:14>> congressman, I've never had I've never got a chance to speak to these folks. But I will say is, is that in my time in congress, proved that I strongest whistleblower protections we can possibly have. We have plenty of opportunities. >> we're not talking to every other state. We're talking to minnesota because of the rampant fraud. So look, three. >> there's no fraud in any other states.
▶ 4:20:32>> three members of the minnesota state house of representatives, who all served on the fraud prevention and state oversight uh policy committee, gave transcribed interviews that confirmed that your administration was aware of the fraud happening in the state, yet chose not to act due to fear of political repercussions and intentionally silence silenced whistleblowers who have tried to come forward? Uh. >> well, that's incorrect. >> I'm going to answer this in the record. A roadmap to a program integrity and fraud prevention report, Mr. chairman.
▶ 4:21:07Thank you, Mr. chairman. Um, this report, um, relays that several current and former department of human services employees have described messaging from dhs leadership that emphasize compassion over compliance. So the former leaders have said that dhs should be guided by 70% compassion and 30% compliance.
▶ 4:21:31And then in 2023, dhs uh, public presentation leadership encouraged employees to embrace a 6040 mindset. Again, that 60% compassion and 40% compliance. I want to have as much compassion for people that need social safety nets. Like, I want to have 100% compassion, but we also have to have 100% compliance or work as hard as we can to get there. And as you sit here today, and after acknowledging how widespread and pervasive fraud is in minnesota, how should your state employees prioritize program compliance?
▶ 4:22:01What what is your message to people now, uh, relative to this compassion compliance, uh, ratio? >> I think I agree with you on this, congressman. I don't think it's an either or choice. We need to make sure we're not going to we're not going to stop these programs. We're not going to stop being the top state for children in the country. But we need to make sure if we're going to continue those programs, that we need to have fraud prevention and program integrity in. So I agree with you. It's it's not an either or, and it's not a percentage.
▶ 4:22:31>> in order to give the benefits to the people that need them most, we have to be good stewards of tax dollars, right? And for every dollar that is stolen through waste, fraud and abuse, that is a dollar that cannot go to people that need it most. So I agree, we need to prioritize, uh, compliance, make sure that we have the least amount of fraud possible. And, um, with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> I agree, congressman. >> gentleman yields back. Uh, next is Mr. maguire from virginia, then, miss luna. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Good afternoon to our witnesses, governor waltz and attorney general ellison, what year were you made aware of rampant fraud in your state?
▶ 4:23:04>> well, congressman, I think. >> the committee has spoken. Nearly 30 whistleblowers, most of which are current employees in your administration. Based on these transcribed interviews, you were both made aware of the rampant fraud in your state around 2019, 2020. Did they make the waltz? Do you know who janelle skye hanson is? >> I do not I was going to ask. >> you, Mr. chairman. I seek unanimous consent to enter into the record article from kare11 titled kare11 investigates evicted homeless paying the price for minnesota's fraud crisis. >> without objection. So ordered.
▶ 4:23:34>> thank you, Mr. chairman. Governor wallace janelle hansen, who goes by the name sky, has autism. In june 2025, sky, who was living in an apartment paid for by integrated community supports, was evicted by police because her caregivers, american home health care llc, who were subletting her apartment, stopped paying their rent. Their.
▶ 4:23:52This provider claimed to provide this woman with 12 hours of daily individual services and build ics on an average of nearly $12,000 a month, when she only interacted with them two hours per day. Because of this fraud. The woman has been homeless for eight months. In fact, while sky is homeless, the owner of american home health care llc lives in a high end maple grove home, which has an indoor basketball court.
▶ 4:24:17State medicaid billing data shows since 2022, american home healthcare has been paid more than $2.2 million in public funds. That is $2.2 million that was taken fraudulently from the taxpayers to pay for a man to live in a lavish home, while people like sky are left to live on the street. Governor waltz, this is despicable. You have a duty to serve the minnesotans. You failed and you failed to protect these individuals like sky, who needed it the most.
▶ 4:24:44I've had constituents tell me that after seeing all the fraud that has come to light in your state, that they aren't sure if they're paying taxes or if they are paying criminals. Governor waltz, attorney general ellison, yes or no? Does your administration take whistleblower report seriously, yes or no? >> yes, yes. >> governor waltz and attorney general ellison, yes or no? Do you believe that when faced with a whistleblower, the correct course of action to is to retaliate against them and suppress their concerns? >> no, of course not.
▶ 4:25:14It's illegal to. >> waltz yes or no. Are you aware of any instances of employees in minnesota's department of human services being threatened and intimidated with military surveillance to ensure they stay quiet about fraud? >> I am not. >> this is a picture. This is a picture of an email from emmanuel nwala at the dhs manager, who has since been promoted to your to the leadership role.
▶ 4:25:39This email shows clear proof that the threatened employees with military surveillance, including, quote, I did intelligence research with the army and give them ip addresses and email addresses to track specific locations. Governor waltz, yes or no? Are you aware of this email? >> I am not. >> governor waltz. Mr. nwala stated in the email that he was asked by upper leadership to hold off as they are doing their own thing on it. What did that mean? What did they mean by that? >> I couldn't say I'm unfamiliar with.
▶ 4:26:07>> upper leadership doing their own military surveillance on whistleblowers to intimidate employees and to stand quiet about, uh, rampant fraud. >> I do not believe they would. >> move it on. Governor walz, yes or no? Do you agree that it would be intimidation to confront a whistleblower with photographs of their car, their house, and monitor their phone and computer and ask which schools their children go to? >> yes, governor. >> waltz, yes or no? Did the dhs investigators to, uh, direct you to participate in these intimidation attacks against whistleblowers?
▶ 4:26:39>> could you restate the question? >> did did were you a direct it to intimidate these whistleblowers? >> of course not. No. >> governor waltz, who is shireen gandhi? >> she is the current commissioner of the department. >> and her transcribed interview, miss gandhi confirmed that dhs used outside entities to investigate dhs staff.
▶ 4:26:59Governor waltz, I think it's clear to the american people that your administration didn't take whistleblowers seriously, and even further cultivated an environment of fear to intimidate employees from going public with the truth about the rampant fraud in your state and under your failed leadership. Governor waltz, attorney general ellison, your incompetence and inaction to stop pervasive fraud when you were first alerted was not only defrauded taxpayers of $9 billion, but you have also failed to protect those who truly needed these services, such as sky.
▶ 4:27:29Because of your failed leadership, that woman was evicted from her apartment and homeless on the street for eight months. Leadership matters. Governor. Governor, you abandoned your troops before deployment. You are right before the deployed. You told your law enforcement not to cooperate with federal agents, which led to a lot of the problems in your state that you don't see happening around the country. And you you abandoned minnesota by allowing this fraud to continue. And so I understand you. I'm so glad that you have decided not to. >> congressman, that's untrue.
▶ 4:27:59>> for reelection as governor. With that, I yield back. >> congressman, did you do 24 years in the military? Because I did. Was that not long enough for you? >> I'm sorry. You're now interfering with my time, but as a veteran, he's a veteran, too. I don't think that you need to compare service. No one's discrediting your service. But I think they're discrediting. >> my credit. >> was being, to. >> my credit, was being questioned, and I did that. >> chairman recognizes miss luna from florida. >> thank you. Governor. >> chairman, I would ask. >> my questioning is not for you. Please do not interfere with the witnesses time. It's for your attorney.
▶ 4:28:30>> he didn't ask a question. So it is miss luna's time. >> thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to be very clear about why we are here today and why both of you should be concerned. I've already sent criminal referrals to attorney general pam bondi, recommending that both governor waltz and attorney general ellison be investigated and prosecuted under 18 U.S. code 371 and 18 U.S. code two. The us attorney office estimates up to 9 billion in taxpayer money has been stolen on your watch, governor waltz. Not a rounding error, not a typo. $9 billion. And both of you knew, Mr.
▶ 4:29:02Ellison. There's a widely reported recording of a meeting between you and feeding, um, feeding our future on december 11th, 2021. At that meeting, those individuals that you were speaking to told you that the state investigators looking into fraud were acting in a, quote, racist manner. And your response was, and I'm quoting directly from the recording, let's just go fight these people. I want to ask you, what do you mean by fight these people? >> congresswoman?
▶ 4:29:32Um, first of all this matter, I've responded in writing to this committee. I've written an op ed about this matter. I have gone through several committees, one in the state, one in fed, one in the senate now, here today. And it's very clear that these people were clearly liars. They were lying to me. They lied to judges. They lied to the state agencies. They were fraudsters. Everyone agrees that they are fraudsters. And.
▶ 4:30:02>> um, if I could just because I'm a limit on time, though, I want to see. And I understand what you are stating. You're saying that you were essentially lied to, but in responding to them. And the reason I'm questioning on this is because I had the privilege of questioning some of your state legislators that were republicans, and they did feel that both you and the governor were covering up what was happening with the fraud. So I want to specifically, just who are you referencing when you said fight these people? If you could just keep it short. >> congress. >> was that your own state?
▶ 4:30:33>> congresswoman? These people represented themselves to be business people who were having difficulty with the bureaucracy. Okay? They contacted me and they wanted to know what you know. Can you can you possibly help us? What I did is investigate their claims and then work with the federal authorities to see 57 of them convicted of crimes in about, I think, more than 80 now indicted.
▶ 4:31:01So these these people presented themselves as someone who needed help and honest business people. They were not what they claim to be. So just. And we helped them get convicted as. >> they well, should. >> just to be clear, it would be the bureaucracy. Would you say, within your own state is that you were you were saying, fight these people as in the bureaucracy within your own state? Correct? >> congresswoman, I was in I was in congress for 12 years. Thank you for and I did and I did constituent services all the time. >> okay. So I'm not going anywhere on this question. That brings me to my next thing.
▶ 4:31:31Do you believe that it is racist to investigate someone of fraud because they are of somalian descent? Yes or no, ma'am. >> I believe that anybody who commits fraud of any background should be investigated and held accountable. >> okay, well, I would actually agree with you on that one. So thank you for clarifying. Um, but to be clear, those individuals that you told the department of human and human services were basically, um, it was racist.
▶ 4:31:57Then if you were looking into it for fraud, um, you took that meeting, you made that promise. And then it turns out that the billions of dollars in fraud continued. And I hate to bring this up because I am a parent, but your own son also received donations from those same individuals. Um, imam omar, the man that you invited, um, invited you and is listed a partial owner of an entity that was used to launder over 40 million in feeding our future funds.
▶ 4:32:22I would say that you did mislead the public whether or not, um, you at the time realized what they were up to. The fact is, is that you were then presented with the evidence, and it does feel and according to your own state legislators, that you did not take that seriously enough, in my opinion. If you. >> disagree. >> ma'am, I, I, I, I'm telling you what my opinion is.
▶ 4:32:43Um, I don't believe that that was a question, but I do believe based on the recording, based on the fact that you were personally tied to it and based on the fact that your family then had ties to it as well, seems a little sus. Um, aside from that, though, you're telling the american people essentially that maybe you didn't know about it when dozens of your own employees were afraid to as being labeled as racist or islamophobic if they stayed silent. And so I just want to be clear about something you've stated, and you agree that anyone should be investigated based on, you know, regardless of their background.
▶ 4:33:13But the fact is, is that your own employees came forward and were actually afraid of actually looking into that fraud because they did not want to be labeled as is islamophobic or, um, as, as maybe xenophobic. So you dismiss this, as president trump said, as politicizing the issue when $9 billion is not a political talking point, it's an embarrassment. The american people see what's going on. And this is fraud. Um, I would say, and I would also advise the attorney general to look into our criminal referrals.
▶ 4:33:40I do not believe that you guys, um, could say that you didn't know what was happening because, frankly, um, even if, let's say, giving you the benefit of the doubt, you might not have known you guys still chose to turn a blind eye to it. Thank you. Chairman, I yield my time. >> gentlelady yields back. And before I represent, before I recognize Mr. langworthy, our last questioner. Uh, I want to say, congressman jack is on the rules committee, and everyone knows that they put in long hours. He's actually managing the floor.
▶ 4:34:10If he doesn't make it back in time after Mr. langworthy, I, I want to, uh, put into the record. Representative jack, uh, is leading debate on the floor, but we'll submit his questions for the record. So with that, I recognize Mr. langworthy from new york. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Um, governor, you have served as governor of the state of minnesota for nearly seven years.
▶ 4:34:32Why did it take you until 2023 to launch an investigation under an inspector general into this massive fraud that's been uncovered? >> I don't think that timeline. >> I don't believe that timeline is correct. Congressman. As I said, we were making changes and this has been being worked in these cases have been brought forward years before. >> but but your administration did hesitate for years to fully investigate this fraud.
▶ 4:34:58Was it because you were concerned about the you know, you're the de facto leader of the democratic party in minnesota? As a governor, were you concerned about the political consequences within the minnesota democratic party's voter coalition? Is that did that lead to you making that mistake?
▶ 4:35:15Because trying to listen to the answers today and come up with a conclusion as to why you would turn a blind eye to this for so long when so many people from your partners in government across the aisle, but also people at the street level, uh, saw this fraud going on in in plain sight. >> well, we did not. And I know that the rest of the country saw this recently. And what I would ask you, congressman, is what benefit would there be to that? Just assume there's no ethics involved, which I have a long history here of doing that.
▶ 4:35:44There's certainly no benefit in taking money from programs that I've advocated for that make minnesota the best state to live. And so we worked it from the beginning. And and look, these things, these folks continue to move. They're moving target. We went back to the legislature asking for more tools. We went back last year and asked for more tools. And now what's great is republicans are actually supporting those things that we put forward. So as soon. >> as governor.
▶ 4:36:08>> governor, republicans came to this committee last month and testified, the fact that they've been trying to get people's attention in power in minnesota for a long time, uh. >> I would disagree with their characterization. >> well, it so so you state that unequivocally, there was no political consideration based on constituents in the democratic party? Absolutely not a blind eye.
▶ 4:36:25Now, that's interesting that, governor, because your first reactions in december 2025 were to call taxpayer conspiracy theorists and dismiss concerns about the $9 billion in fraud as white supremacy. And, you know, on december 23rd, you stated, this is what happens when they scapegoat. And this is what happens when you no longer hide the idea of white supremacy. You immediately went there. >> and I believe I was speaking about the ice invasion in metro surge. I'm unfamiliar with where you're quoting from.
▶ 4:36:56>> this is this is when when this fraud was uncovered. It knowing now that those people were correct, would you apologize to those constituents for for classifying them? >> I'm I'm familiar what you're asking for. I've heard today attacks on the somali community that I would view as racist trope throwing at the somali community. >> okay, governor, I understand you need to deny and deflect. And, you know, your stories are pretty legendary at this point.
▶ 4:37:24But while you were looking the other way at fraud that took place on your watch, you and your ticket mates, uh, in, in the democratic party in minnesota, get somewhere between 80 and 90% of the vote in somali heavy precincts. Uh, in in your election reelection, the gentleman sitting next to you won his last election by a mere 21,000 votes. Uh, it seems to me in, in conventional wisdom here, would be that you were willfully ignorant to these crimes in return for a community support. Um.
▶ 4:37:55>> that's totally false, congressman. That accusation is totally false. I one by, I don't know, ten points, hundreds of thousands of votes. >> he won by 21,000. >> but but that accusation throwing that around. And we came here to help and work with you to try and find solutions. >> we're talking about $9 billion in fraud. Your entire state budget is only 65 billion. I mean, this is a massive. >> you have the spreadsheet on that, congressman, on the 9 billion. >> I you've you've rattled off about ten different numbers to date. You clearly don't have a handle on the numbers either.
▶ 4:38:26And you need a serious accounting effort in the state of minnesota right now. >> congressman I've given you the numbers. I'm not sure. >> do you believe that you're in action in the first term to prevent fraud in the childhood nutrition and child care assistance programs gave the green light to other scammers to commit housing and medicaid fraud in your second term? >> no, I don't believe that. >> uh, and once again, your words say one thing. Your actions say something different.
▶ 4:38:48You came into office after several multi-million dollar fraud scandals on the heels of a 2018 report alleging that over a $100 million was being defrauded from taxpayers annually. And you did nothing. And in 2020. >> that's not. >> after hearing about potential fraud with feeding our future, you did nothing and you knew and did nothing to stop autism payment fraud. It's annual expenses inexplicably increased from $6 million to $192 million in just five years.
▶ 4:39:18And you did nothing to stop housing stabilization, medicaid fraud, which has topped $100 billion. And you did nothing to stop daycare fraud, an issue that's already costing taxpayers millions when you were sworn into office. Are you familiar with article eight of the minnesota constitution? >> I am not, congressman, but I will give you this doing nothing. You're in the right job for that in this congress. I, I, I disagree with that entire characterization. No. I'm unfamiliar. >> it seems like you've created a state of minnesota that you're free to come. Ranks at.
▶ 4:39:48>> the top of almost every category. >> and make fraud. >> the ranks at the top of nearly every category in quality of life. >> a real big, bold one. After what we've uncovered here today, uh, article eight states that minnesota officers, including the governor, may be impeached for malfeasance or nonfeasance in the performance of their official duties. Well, billions of dollars of taxpayer money were allowed to be lost to fraud. Whistleblowers were ignored. It's extremely well documented. Uh, and those people were punished.
▶ 4:40:15And you had a direct political benefit to this fraud. That's an impeachable offense, Mr. chairman. I yield back, gentleman. >> yields back. And I think you heard the bell. I know votes are, uh, being called. So the ranking member and I have deferred any, any closing statements until we we come back. I want to thank our witnesses for being here. Uh, we appreciate your testimony.
▶ 4:40:41Uh, hopefully you all will will read the, uh, committee report and protect the whistleblowers. And hopefully we can hold some people accountable who have committed fraud. Pursuant to the previous order, the committee will recess for floor votes. We plan to reconvene right after the vote series. The committee stands in recess. Thank you all. >> you want us back? >> yeah, yeah. >> the witnesses can be excused. Thank you all. Thank you. I know you have.
▶ 4:41:12>> thank you. Chairman. >> we really appreciate you all being here. >> thank you. Chairman.
▶ 5:56:27Okay. >> I'm going to gavel the committee back to order. I know there's some members that are still coming back from the floor, but we're going to go ahead and go through the bills and then we'll vote on them if there's any debate. Uh, first motion is the chris duarte motion, uh, pertaining to the homeland security secretary.
▶ 5:56:56Uh, the motion is debatable. Do any members seek recognition on the krishnamoorthi motion? Anybody seek recognition? Uh, chair. Mr. biggs. >> this is for secretary. No. Is that correct? >> this is for secretary noem. >> so she's she's been testifying down in is continued on in judiciary.
▶ 5:57:22And it is, quite frankly, hard for me to imagine that there'd be anything new that that my colleagues across the aisle would want to ask her. Um, so it just seems to me like this. >> would you would you yield to a question, Mr. biggs? >> yeah, sure. >> did did anyone during your judiciary hearing today ask about minnesota and all of that? >> yes, Mr. chairman, to both of those.
▶ 5:57:51Minnesota and all of that. Okay. >> so so she answered all those questions? >> yes, Mr. chairman, she did. I thought I thought, um, and I thought she was also cooperative because a number of my colleagues across the aisle asked her for more information. She's going to provide more information. And, uh, it just seems like to me like this is, was is deleterious and duplicative, and and it'll be a waste of time. So with that, I'm I would oppose this subpoena and yield back.
▶ 5:58:22>> gentleman. Yields back. Chair. Mr. chris duarte. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Look, I think that, um. >> in this committee, we've obviously touched on topics that are covered in other committees, including immigration, uh, including um, uh, other matters that are that have overlapping jurisdiction.
▶ 5:58:41But what has happened with ice and cbp and dhs, not just with regard to excessive use of force and the operation midway blitz or metro surge, but also the waste of money and government resources merits its own kind of examination in this committee. So that's why, uh, of all the committees, I think this one has the the broadest jurisdiction and the one that is most concerned about rooting out waste, fraud and abuse. And we've seen that in the dhs. >> okay.
▶ 5:59:10Uh, gentleman yields back uh, next going to recognize miss luna. And I think she may have an announcement. >> oh, well thank you, chairman. Um, first of all, I think that we are the greatest committee in congress. And so I think that we have purview over every single branch, division, etc. So I want to talk to everyone. And I think that these are all valid concerns for members of congress to want to speak directly to the secretaries. Um, but I did also to do what some people don't do in washington.
▶ 5:59:36And I picked up the phone and called homeland, and secretary noem has agreed to have us, all the members over to homeland to answer any questions that we may have. Um, so that option stands, and I will be taking full advantage of that. Not next week as we're out of session, but as soon as we get back. And so with that being said, I think that that pretty much says that there's no need for a subpoena. She'll come in, she'll she'll answer, answer questions and or have us over there. And, uh, you have stated that you would coordinate. So. Very good. Thanks. >> chair recognizes Mr. burchett from tennessee. >> I was going to ask miss luna.
▶ 6:00:06Will there be food? >> I think we can arrange something. Maybe chick fil a if everyone's tired. >> oh, I'm so dead. I'm tired of chick. Give me a pizza with meat on it. >> good. >> you know. No. >> any other member seek recognition on the krishnamoorthi? All right. We're going to, um. All those in favor of the christian support motion signify by saying aye. >> aye. >> all those opposed signify by saying no. No. In the opinion of chair, the nose have it. The motion is not agreed to.
▶ 6:00:38>> yeas and nays, please. >> okay. Recorded vote has been ordered. All votes will be rolled to the end of this debate, which hopefully will be pretty soon. Uh, next motion is the motion by miss mace to, uh, referencing, uh, pam bondi, the attorney general. This motion is debatable. Do any members seek recognition? I'll comment on it. Did you want recognition?
▶ 6:01:10I was, uh, had a phone call with the, uh, chief of staff for the attorney general. And the attorney general has offered to give, uh, members briefing, a briefing, uh, a few at a time, to come into the department of justice and get a briefing on where they are with respect to epstein documents and anything else pertaining to that.
▶ 6:01:37So, uh, I'm certainly interested in getting a briefing from the attorney general. >> I also think that maybe we have questions about anthony weiner, but that's separate. That what chairman anthony weiner's laptop. Me just in general. Okay. She'll be willing to answer any questions. All right. Thank you. >> chair. Recognize the ranking member. >> thank you. I want to support representative mace's motion for the attorney general.
▶ 6:02:03Uh, look, the american public have significant, significant questions about the doj and their process for releasing of the files. I think the attorney general has gone to speak, obviously, to other committees. I think it's important that she is in front of our committee. She can directly answer questions about the release of the files, about transparency, about ensuring that victims and survivors are protected.
▶ 6:02:26And so we certainly support representative mace's motion as it relates to bringing the attorney general here to have a hearing in this committee. And if there's other opportunities to speak with her, we would welcome those as well. >> any other member seek recognition, seeing none, all those in favor of the mace motion signify by saying, I, I all those opposed say no. No. In the opinion of the chair, the nos have it.
▶ 6:02:55The motion is not agreed to. Uh, uh, recorded vote has been ordered. All votes will be rolled to the end of the debate. Okay. Now we the next motion, uh, number three, uh, for is miss mace, the mace, number two, uh, pertaining to, uh, her issue. And I'll yield to miss mace. >> uh, this would be a subpoena for information on the sexual harassment slush fund. Um, that's really.
▶ 6:03:22I want those documents and information related to it and members that were included in it. >> okay. >> chair recognizes, uh, ranking member. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I just have some comments on representative macy's motion, and then I'd want to offer just a slight amendment to it, which I think would help protect certain staff. And I just want to just kind of clarify first, I want to appreciate the actual effort.
▶ 6:03:46I think that obviously there shouldn't be funds to protect any member of congress that's been engaged in any type of sexual harassment or abuse of anyone. So I do appreciate that effort. Now, we have heard some concern from the office of general counsel that the breadth of this motion covering members, senators, staff, library of congress staff, gpo, gio, capitol police and other entities and employees covered within the actual motion makes it more likely that the office of congressional workplace rights could push back the
▶ 6:04:17Based on some confidential confidentiality language. It also, there's been concern from our members that it does not protect staff enough that there could be a chilling effect on staff. I understand the intent of the motion. So, congresswoman, I just want to add, if you'd be willing to accept this amendment, we think this would clarify this. Uh, Mr. chairman, I move that the committee issue. I'm sorry. Let me look here. >> a copy of the language, because my language redacts names of victims and witnesses. >> correct? Correct. There still, there is still some some concerns.
▶ 6:04:47Let me just offer the amendment to see what if you're if you're amenable to it. Mr. chairman, I move that the committee issue. Uh. I'm sorry. One second. Where did it go? Right here. Here it is. There at the end. At the end of your motion just now. So, representative mace, at the end of of the motion, we would add this language. And I'm happy to pass this out, which we're putting out right now.
▶ 6:05:06At the end of the motion we would add the awards and settlements will be limited to a payment made for an award or settlement in connection with the claim, alleging a violation committed personally by an individual who, at the time of committing the violation, was a member of the house of representatives, including a delegate or resident commissioner to the congress or a senator or okay with that. >> I'm fine with language. >> okay. That is something that we believe that we could we could support. This amendment would limit this.
▶ 6:05:34Of course, uh, would limit this to members, senators, and we would and with that, I would recommend that we vote yes to support this amendment. >> officially making an amendment. >> that that is the the the amendment to add to the motion. >> Mr. garcia would like to amend the motion basically to exclude staff. >> to to so we can actually focus this on who I think the representative is trying to trying to get to, which is, uh, which is members. >> he's a Mr. chairman.
▶ 6:06:03He's using language out of the basically rule 23 of the house rules. So I'm fine with that. Limiting it to house members. Senate. Et cetera. I'm good with this. >> okay. So the amendment has been offered. I guess the debate is now on the amendment to the motion. Uh, I saw luna, then biggs. Luna. >> all right. Um, I support representative mace mesa's a subpoena here as well as the amendment to it.
▶ 6:06:33And I just think it's really disgusting how this institution protects itself, because y'all, just half of them voted to send this stuff to house ethics, where you know it's going to die. We know that members of congress are using taxpayer dollars to pay off sexual harassment. We just had a member of congress literally sexually harassed a woman that then lit herself on fire, and you guys all protected him. You guys all protected my my own side, your side.
▶ 6:06:55And so if you guys want to talk about victims, if you want to go out and virtue signal and then you guys are going to kill her stuff on the floor and then try to pass it. Yeah, of course we should subpoena all of this stuff, but just. I'm not going to sit here and play games. I think it's a complete fraud. I think that's why the american people hate us. I think the midterms are coming up and everyone should go on record for this. And I hope that members are exposed for this. I hope it goes back. I think it to the 70s because it's wrong that it's happening.
▶ 6:07:24It's wrong that we cover up for it. It's wrong that we can't censure our own side because people are busy making deals, because you guys want to censure your side. It's a deal that's been cut and people hate us for it. So yeah, I support it. >> thank you. >> chair recognizes Mr. biggs. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I just I have a question because I want to make sure, um, that I understand it. Uh, this on the second line of, of the motion where it talks about for the awards or settlements paid, um, that, that that seems to me that it would exclude allegations which have been unproven or unsubstantiated or unresolved through an award or settlement. Is that right? >> if we're using the word yes, the word allegation would include allegations. Yes.
▶ 6:07:53Not just things that have been completed its allegations. >> but but it doesn't say that. It says and. >> oh, it's just final settlement. >> yeah. It says awards are final settlement. So I just want to make sure that that's. >> the case. Correct. >> okay. Um, and I so I'm, I'm all I'm all in on the I'm all in on the, the the underlying and I'm, I'm actually okay with the, uh, with the amendment.
▶ 6:08:20Although I do think it narrows it more than perhaps I would like it to see. But I'll yield it back to you, Mr. chairman. >> chair recognizes Mr. conner, then, miss boebert. >> thank you, Mr. chair. I just want to recognize representative mason's courage first in standing up for the disclosure of the epstein files so we don't protect pedophiles. And now she's saying the same thing. Let's not protect people who sexually harass in the united states congress.
▶ 6:08:45And she's saying and and she's saying, let's have pam bondi tell us why half the files are still hidden. I don't understand how anyone on this committee can't vote yes on both of those motions. It's about transparency. It has nothing to do with being a democrat or a republican. It's about going after predators and people who are sexually harassing. And that's what the american people expect. And I appreciate representative mace, his commitment to that transparency. >> chair. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 6:09:14Connor boebert. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And I want to thank congresswoman nancy mace for introducing this privileged motion. I think at this point, this is something that should be introduced on a weekly basis. I am absolutely disgusted that we couldn't even get to 50 members of congress who want immediate transparency. Don't we all campaign on transparency?
▶ 6:09:34Don't we all go out and tell the american voters that we are leaders, and that we are going to get justice for them, that we are going to do right by them, and then we hire their daughters to come work for us. And your tax dollars, millions and millions of dollars has been used in this slush fund as hush money to silence victims who have been sexually harassed, sexually abused by members of congress. And then congress is going to do exactly what it does best investigate itself.
▶ 6:10:05And we know that none of that ever goes anywhere. The american people demand transparency. And this doesn't just pertain to a ranch in in arizona or new mexico or an or an island down in the virgin islands. This is happening right here in our nation's capital, and we should be held to the highest standards and to every member who voted to send this to committee where, you know, this was sent to die on the house floor just moments ago.
▶ 6:10:34I hope you have a darn good reason to tell your constituents why you are not going to stand up for the victims, and I'm glad that we are doing something about it here in the oversight committee. I'm glad that this motion was made here. So we actually have another chance at transparency. But again, these are your tax dollars. These are your tax dollars that were used to silence victims. They have been settled with victims.
▶ 6:10:58And to the members who voted against this I go home and tell your daughters what you did today. Go home and tell your daughters what happens in the workplace, no matter where it is in your hometown, in your nation's capital, and tell them what you did to help continue to cover up decades of corruption. I am absolutely in favor of this motion. Thank you, congresswoman, for bringing this up. I yield. >> jen kiggans Mr. donaldson.
▶ 6:11:30Mais. >> uh, thank you, chairman. This is really more a question on the I'm assuming an amendment to the motion. >> this is the garcia amendment to exclude staff. >> all right. So I guess my question for Mr. garcia and is why are we going to make a limitation on staff if congressional dollars have been utilized, uh, for the purposes of essentially trying to cover up or cure harassment that's occurred, why are staff members being exempted from that level of transparency?
▶ 6:11:59>> no, I think that's a good question. So in our in our conversations with the office of general counsel, I think the one concern and it's been brought up by some members as well, is that there are some staff in congressional offices and other places that have actually they have made settlements for a variety of different reasons. And the concern is that they, in a process of disclosure, could be unprotected from their settlement process that they agreed to. And the office of general counsel is unclear, that they would be protected in those cases.
▶ 6:12:28And so that is the concern. At the end of the day, I think the intent is this is for members of congress and for senators. So that's what we're that's the one thing that we're trying to clarify. >> and I. >> appreciate the question. >> and I appreciate that.
▶ 6:12:43But I guess what I'm trying to understand is if that's the the standard for a staff member, that there was a settlement based upon the reasonings that you said, but that same level isn't for, uh, the staff member, whether whether the for the member, whether they're a current member or previous member that's been in this body. I guess I'm just trying to understand what the limiting principle is for what we're trying to accomplish.
▶ 6:13:09Because if the goal is transparency, to make sure that harassment that has occurred on capitol hill is now transparent. But that's only for elected members, current and past, but doesn't doesn't deal with staff members both current and past. Then I failed to see how the level of transparency is being arrived at with the motion. >> no, I appreciate you. One more thing I. I think this is a good back and forth.
▶ 6:13:34I think the other issue is there's some concern that staff members that have that have on their own agreed to a settlement. And if there is additional disclosure in a settlement that they negotiated for a variety of different reasons, if they were the actual victim, that this would cause a chilling effect in small legislative offices.
▶ 6:13:56>> I understand that, but by that logic, that would occur throughout the entire, uh, capital complex under that logic. Because if you're going to say that in a small legislative office where let's be clear, half of the house has small legislative offices, if if that's the case, wouldn't that same logic proceed to to the to the floor of the house and the floor of the senate? And mind you, I'm in favor of the motion.
▶ 6:14:20I'm in favor of transparency, but I'm trying to ascertain are we trying to create a limit to that transparency for the stuff that, to be blunt, is just hot topic or are we trying to have transparency? >> can I say, can I respond one more time? So I actually think this is an important debate, a piece of this. I'm going to support the motion. We want to support the motion as, as a as democrats. We believe that representative mace is we think we know where she's trying to get at here.
▶ 6:14:49We want to support it. What we're trying to do is address a real concern of some of our members and the office and the officers that we're talking to about. Could this have a chilling effect on certain small offices that have gone into settlements? That's what we're trying to eliminate. I think the focus here is on members of congress and senators. I think this amendment is tries to address that. Either way, we're going to support the final the final motion, I certainly am. And so I just wanted to pass it along. >> thank you. Donald, would you yield for a few seconds?
▶ 6:15:19Yes, sir. I just want to say I agree with you. I think if we're going to do this, we don't exclude anyone. We if we're going to if we're going to disclose the settlement, let's let's disclose every penny where it went, even if it went to staff. Because because at some point people are going to say the amount of money that was paid out. And I have no idea how much was paid out. I don't know a single person that was paid other than maybe the former member from texas a few a few years ago.
▶ 6:15:47But, um, they're going to say a dollar amount and everybody's going to assume it was all members. Well, it could have been 25% members, 75% staff, or it could be 100% members. I say disclose the whole thing. So I oppose the garcia amendment. But I yield back to you, byron. >> um, I mean, chairman, I guess I guess my question would be for the the original sponsor of the motion, miss mace, is this I guess I'm trying to understand where we're taking this.
▶ 6:16:15And it's when it comes to the transparency aspects, I'm 100% for that. We should do that. >> and vote for it. >> but but nancy, that's not I'm not saying I'm voting no. Like I'm for it, but I'm trying to understand why. Is it okay to say just the members? Congresswoman, if. >> you have a title like everybody else in this room, come. >> on, nancy. I'm just trying to have a conversation. I'm trying to get an answer. >> mace, I have earned a title, and I watched the majority of men in this body just vote down a measure. >> nancy, I have not disclosed.
▶ 6:16:44Congresswoman mace, I've never disrespected you at all. I'm not being disrespectful. I'm trying to get an. >> asian woman. >> no, I did not. You're taking it too far. I'm trying to get an understanding of what we're doing here. That's what I'm saying. >> pay our salary and taxpayers. >> pay it out. The core question. Reclaiming my time. Now, the core of the question is why is there okay for a limitation just to members if these dollars have been paid on behalf potentially of staff, both currently on capitol hill and previously employed on capitol hill?
▶ 6:17:13If we're seeking transparency, what's. >> the flavor of full disclosure? But if the other side of the aisle is concerned about legal limitations and disclosing and it not working, then I'm okay with focusing on just on members of congress, of both bodies, the house and the senate. If you would like to do your own amendment either or do your own subpoena afterwards, then do that too. But this thing has to pass. I mean, the american people, we expect the american people to be held accountable to a totally different standard.
▶ 6:17:39And now we're saying, oh, because we don't have staff included, we're just going to vote this thing down. I'm talking about members of congress, bodies in this house, bodies in the senate. That's where the focus should be, because the taxpayers are paying our salaries. And if this thing fails because of a technicality, then that is a failure of the american people is where I'm going with it. I want this thing to pass. I would like it to be unanimous. I would like both parties to vote for it, especially after the abject. >> failure we. >> just saw.
▶ 6:18:06>> I'm a minute and 30 over, so I'm going to reclaim all I'm going to say. If there's a technical concern, then what we're saying also is that the technical concern is not universal, that we're not picking and choosing what the technical concern is. And if we're going to now slave motions for this transparency, I would just say we should actually examine according to what the chairman is saying. Are we going to be consistent or are we or are we not? That's all I'm saying. I yield back. >> chair recognizes Mr. man from california. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 6:18:33I just have a brief comment, and I don't particularly have any skin in the game on this one. I voted no on the motion to refer earlier, but I would just say there's a very clear difference between those of us who are members and our staff, which is we are public figures. We run for office. Our staff did not choose to be in the limelight. They did not choose to take on this burden. So when you look at what private companies do, what government officials and staff do in other situations, they're typically not disclosed in the way this bill would do.
▶ 6:19:02I think we are unique in that we are running for office every two years. I think that we have additional responsibilities and a higher moral calling and a higher moral level we have to adhere to because we are so powerful. So I support the motion because I think there are legitimate legal issues with disclosing staff. At the same time, I support the base motion whether or not this amendment passes. >> will the gentleman yield? >> I yield back my time. >> gentleman yields back. Chair recognizes I think doctor fox.
▶ 6:19:32Then clay higgins. >> uh, mister chairman. Yes. Uh, as someone else said, I don't really have a big dog in this fight or anything, but I have a if Mr. garcia might, um, take a friendly amendment to his amendment.
▶ 6:19:50Uh, if there is concern about transparency related to nonmembers, could we ask in the amendment that we get a report on a an amount of money that might have been given out to in relationship to nonmembers?
▶ 6:20:13And then if there seems to be a real problem there, that that could be then looked into by this committee, I. >> I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with that at all. I think that's a fair request. I think that gives the committee an opportunity to take a look at that number and see if there's other action that needs to be taken. >> so so let me let me get this straight. You're going to make an amendment to the amendment.
▶ 6:20:38And your amendment is that they have to we have to disclose how much money was paid out to staff. >> correct. >> and I. >> and then, yeah, if this committee thinks that's a sizable enough I think. >> that's good. If you if you would yield I think that's good because I don't want a number to come out and everyone to assume 100% went to members. It could, it could be 100% members or it could be. >> donald's point.
▶ 6:21:06I just my staff just told me that a fair share of the settlement funds were for non members. >> okay. >> I don't know if it's 50%. I didn't have that information. Uh, with capitol police settling sexual harassment claims, allegedly, I don't I have a sheet in my office for miss fox after this that goes through. This only goes up to somebody knows. This only goes up to 2018 because this program was ended after 2018. So this is more historical, but my staff just told me a fair share of the settlement payouts.
▶ 6:21:35In some years it was 4 or $5 million or to for people who were not members of congress. So I just got that piece of it. >> you support the fox amendment to the amendment. >> repeat it again. What was the amendment to the amendment?
▶ 6:21:51>> well, what I suggest, miss mace, congresswoman mace, is that in order to sort of deal with the transparency issue, I'd like transparency, too, but that we go forward with the garcia amendment. So we're focusing only on members, but we ask who, whoever it is, we're asking, uh, to provide the total amount of money that had been paid out for. >> I'm fine with that.
▶ 6:22:21And I actually have that list. I have that list by year, but I'm good with that amendment. If you want an amendment to the amendment, I'm fine with that. Um, and I have a spreadsheet, so. >> I'm, I'm, I we would support that. >> okay. And we're drafting the amendment up. >> walk humbly, Mr. donald. >> so we're just going to we're going to. >> move humbly. >> if anyone else wants to talk about the amendment to the amendment, I will recognize him. It's going to take staff a few minutes to draft this up. Mr. burleson.
▶ 6:22:48>> getting a little bit confused, but I just want to make sure and I don't know who would be able to answer this, but as long as you know and I didn't even think about this until this conversation happened. But as long as we, the public is able to ferret out whether it was the the member who was the one victimizing and, and the reason for the harassment, or a staff on staff situation, I think that that's probably that I just want to make sure that that is. >> right.
▶ 6:23:17>> able to be ascertained in whatever is released. >> okay. Thank you. >> yeah. Miss. Mr. garcia, do you understand my question? >> I do, and that I think I think that is why we're making the amendment as well, is we want to be very clear. This is about members of congress and senators.
▶ 6:23:38And I think that, um, miss fox, representative fox's amendment clarifies that we would get a report on all other settlements with numbers so that we can then have information to make any additional motions. >> I do think that that's good, because if you have a continuing problem in an office, even if the member is not the one, that's right. But they're not having oversight of their staff in a proper way, then that's that's a problem. But I just I just want to make sure it's transparent.
▶ 6:24:07Whatever we're releasing that it you know, whoever the victimizer is, whether it's the member or their staff. >> uh, okay. Any other members? So do we have it topped up yet? I know we don't. Can we amendment. Can we do that or not. Is that does anyone object if we go and discuss the bell motion we're going to. This isn't. Do you object, Mr. lieb?
▶ 6:24:38>> no. Just for point of clarity. Just for clarification. >> we're trying to top it up. That's why we're okay. >> are we exempting chief of staff's and things like. That's some of these men, as an attorney that worked on these kinds of cases, sometimes it's management positions that are considered staff. But you know the member looks the other way kind of thing.
▶ 6:24:59Um, so I'm just I'm just cautiously saying that I think congresswoman fox is right in looking at mount, but really, should it be based on an amount or should it be based on whether or not this person had a supervisor position that is supervised by a member? Does that make sense? So the member is fully responsible for their chief. Right.
▶ 6:25:21And I just feel like, you know, some of the horror stories I've heard is is a member knows they kind of look the other way and allow the they're they're the person managing their staff get away with it. >> it it sounds like. >> because I'm also. >> opposed the both amendments but support the bill. >> no, I support it. I want to. >> I mean I think most. People support the bill. I'm just saying. >> that as, as a. >> you you oppose excluding staff. >> well, this is the thing. And I.
▶ 6:25:51>> feel that. >> a person that was sexually harassed at work, I had a supervisor who was who reported back to someone else and I, I would I probably if I had known it would get information, I probably wouldn't have reported it. So I get what our ranking member is saying, because especially when you're younger, okay, we're at a we're at a time in our lives, uh, for the for my fellow sisters, uh, in service here.
▶ 6:26:15But for younger staff members, this is scary to think about any of this information coming out, because no matter what you all think, it will impact their future prospects. They don't. And especially if it's a small staff, they're going to figure out who it is it's going to be. It's just a ripple effect. So I just want as we draft this, be very cautious and making sure we're not protecting people. The goal is to have people that are fully ones responsible, making sure and preventing this from happening.
▶ 6:26:43And that is the member, the senator and the house of representatives member. But we got to make sure that, you know, in other situations where a lot of this stuff can be enabled by the member and not addressing these issues. And but at the same time, chairman comer I, I do worry about, you know, victims and folks coming forward, um, right. Not wanting to come forward because of what we're trying to do, and we're trying to do this because people are getting away with it.
▶ 6:27:12And congresswoman mace is right. People are getting away with not being held accountable and paying off folks and looking the other way. And and again, probably repeating their abuse afterwards. >> all right. And since now that miss tlaib yields back, the amendment is topped up, everyone should have the amendment to the amendment. And I will read it. The fox amendment, uh, included, will also be an annualized list of the amounts of awards and settlements paid to or on behalf of non member staff.
▶ 6:27:42So that's the amendment to the amendment. Does anyone else want to debate the amendment amendment? If not doctor fox? >> well, the only thing I'd like to say is I think Mr. lieb is right about threats to younger women.
▶ 6:27:56And if if a report comes back that has a lot of money attached to it, says there's a lot of money, then this committee can go ahead and do some investigation that my point was, let's give an opportunity for the committee to do more if it needs to. But I think Mr. garcia's amendment is a good amendment to narrow it now so we can move on. I think it's the best of both worlds. Okay, I hope so.
▶ 6:28:27>> seeing no more, we're going to vote. Mr. chairman, on the. >> Mr. comer, can I just say think about the whole are we voting on the whole thing right now? >> no, no, no, we're voting on the amendment to the amendment. That'll be the process. Were you seeking recognition, clay? >> yes. >> oh, okay. So. All those in favor of I was. Oh, you have you have. Go ahead. I.
▶ 6:28:47>> I just like to remind the committee and those present that we, we are once again presenting to the american people that this is the way the oversight committee pursues a subpoena. And this is not the way the oversight committee pursues a subpoena.
▶ 6:29:06We we are the majority and we generally will work with the minority party for an appropriate subpoena to be presented by this committee. And and this like every time we have a hearing now, an opportunity to be recognized is going to be some sort of grandstanding subpoena, whether by the majority or the minority.
▶ 6:29:32And I think it's it's it's beneath the dignity and the procedures of this, of this subpoena process that is long standing, established by this committee and the hard work that the committee staff does to accommodate the desires of a member on either side of the aisle, to pursue a subpoena. >> I think. >> this is not the way we normally do it, although this is becoming the norm.
▶ 6:30:01And let me say that that this, this amendment, as it's being pieced together, is, is, uh, poorly assembled. Uh, and nobody really knows what this thing is, what the impact will be it.
▶ 6:30:18The good lady stated that that there there could be absolutely some impact on, on staff and people will figure out who's who, uh, because of small staffs and when the, when the incident took place. And finally, let me say that that the original motion to subpoena references a date of december 12th, 2018. Let me clarify.
▶ 6:30:42I had to ask what was the significance of that date? Because that's when a law was passed that changed the process to what we have right now. But americans watching this are saying, oh, you mean there's no there's no process in place on how to appropriately handle a complaint like this?
▶ 6:31:05And there is it's an administrative process that goes through general counsel set up by the house since 2018 that handles this, this very america. The members basically not involved. Now I've I've never been sued like this. I've been sued one time or through the administrative process in congress because I escorted the little fella away from, from a, a press conference one time.
▶ 6:31:34It wasn't a complaint from a it wasn't it, it wasn't a complaint from a staff member. So I don't have intimate knowledge of the way this mechanism works. But I do know that members have very little to do with it. It's handled by general counsel, and then it will go to a district court. Maybe if it passes through the preliminary review.
▶ 6:32:01That's what it's called right now by general counsel of the house. Then it can get to a district court where a member may have his day in court to defend himself or whatever. So I, I'm a I'm opposed to this process. Mr. chairman of just thrusting subpoena in front upon the committee for for debate like this.
▶ 6:32:31That doesn't have to happen. And and I think that I understand that, that people have different motives going on with why they they support this and I don't know, I'm going to vote, but this thing is like is woven together from three different pieces. Right now you have the original motion, which nobody really understands the impact of.
▶ 6:32:56You have an amendment to the motion then, is an amendment to the amendment of the motion, and we're not sure what we're voting on right now, but we know we're all supposed to vote yes because it's been thrust upon us like this. I yield. >> Mr. chairman. >> well said, Mr. chairman. >> Mr. chairman. >> um, I'd like to recognize christian moore next. Christian. >> Mr. chair, can we vote? >> I would love to vote, but we have more members seeking recognition. Uh, does any other member seek recognition? Mr.
▶ 6:33:26Mr. turner and then Mr. duncan. Okay. >> I just want to. >> affiliate myself with Mr. higgins statement. Um, the, um, uh, I was resisting saying anything about this whatsoever, but this is a circus. Um, this process degrades valid legislative processes.
▶ 6:33:46It reduces what is supposed to be substantive legal processes that were debated and adopted by congress without any reference to any historical, substantive legislative processes that have happened before congress. And and this is not how subpoenas or legislation is supposed to be amended or addressed.
▶ 6:34:10Now, regardless of whether any of these issues, in the end, are valid or, uh, substantively important, this is not how they're to be handled in addressing them. This becomes a circus. Uh, if this committee is going to take up amending this legislation or addressing this issue of addressing, we should be having a hearing on them. We should open it up. We should not be doing it in this manner.
▶ 6:34:40But we're at this point now, Mr. chairman, and we're well down the road. But this has become a circus and it is unfortunate. >> well said. >> sexual harassment is pretty unfortunate. >> Mr. chairman. >> chair recognizes, I think, Mr. uh, timmons. >> Mr. chairman, the this is going to revictimize victims.
▶ 6:35:03It's not possible to redact the information to a point that would preclude anybody that has half a brain about how this place works, of figuring out who the person was that got the settlement, whether it was the member or the chief or some other staffer within. I don't know what the answer is to this. I'm all for transparency. But I mean, if somebody is living their lives, this is this goes back eight years. So you got somebody that something happened to ten years ago, and now they're going to have to start answering questions for it. They probably want their life to just go on as it is.
▶ 6:35:32I mean, we we didn't take the necessary steps. Um, in a number of victims were revictimized because of how we went about with the epstein files. So I think maybe we should learn from that and just get this right. I don't know what the answer is. I'm all for whatever transparency. If there's a victim out there that would love to make a big deal about this ten years later and hold somebody accountable further, great. Knock it out. But I think for every one of those people, there's going to be another person that would prefer to never think about whatever happened again and enjoy the money they got.
▶ 6:36:00So I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think voting on I mean, this is going to create more problems. And this is I will definitely affiliate myself with Mr. higgins remarks. This is not how this is supposed to happen. >> well said. Any other, uh, Mr. donalds and Mr. sessions.
▶ 6:36:18>> I actually have a clarifying question on the fox amendment because as I read that to amend the garcia amendment in my reading, and I'm not a lawyer, but I'm trying to understand this on the fly, it actually invalidates both amendments.
▶ 6:36:33And we're back to the original motion, because if we're not going to produce an annualized a list of the awards paid to or on behalf of non member of non member staff, which non member staff I'm assuming would be any other employee in the capitol complex. Not in a member office. That's what that says to me in lay terms. I think what we're actually doing is we're getting back to the original motion of miss mays. So I'm just trying to get clarity on that. Mr.
▶ 6:37:04Chairman, before we vote this thing out. >> uh, I can't clarify. I agree with some of the earlier statements. This is not how we're supposed to operate, but, uh, chair, it's still byron time. Are you still talking or you. >> just want to know if somebody wants to answer that? Anybody want to clarify any thoughts on that? Anybody?
▶ 6:37:26>> um, if I could just say I think they're going to print it out and vote your conscience, but I say don't support sexual freaks or deviants and support the amendment and let's get it passed. Thank you. >> I but but but let's. >> no, no. >> hold on. No. Here's here's what we're going to do. Now, I think it's important to understand exactly what we're releasing. Like I was fine with the original mason mason motion. And then we were told, no, we can't do that because there's a chilling effect.
▶ 6:37:51But the amendment now kind of undoes some of the chilling effect, that language that the garcia amendment does. So I don't think it's just as simple as saying, well, just vote it out and be done. I think if we're going to do this, members have to think very clearly about what we're actually letting through. I'm fine with the original motion as it is. That's my position. And I just think that both both motions really countermand each other to a degree. >> Mr. chairman. >> Mr. >> uh, doctor fox.
▶ 6:38:21>> I yield to Mr. biggs. >> yes, sir. >> okay, okay. Mr. biggs, there's still three minutes. Yes. >> yeah. I'm just I'm just thinking. I'm trying to see if I could help clarify that. That if you deleted the term non members and you just put behalf of staff of members of the senate or house of representatives, you know, you're talking about the staff of members, would that assuage your concern? I mean, I get what you're saying and it does. This does kind of get messy, I think.
▶ 6:38:50But I do think, you know, I do think the lawyer in me is saying, well, maybe we should we should get some precision in speaking and, and this might be a little bit more precise than the generic fox amendment. So anyway, so yield back to you. All right. >> miss bass, would you have doctor fox, do you have anything to add? Doctor fox. >> well, I would just say I think Mr. garcia's amendment is pretty clear.
▶ 6:39:18Uh, it it's going after information about a settlement made on behalf of a member of congress, whether it is to a staff person, of a member of congress or anybody else. Uh, I don't think you have to say that. It's a staff person here. It just says alleging a violation committed by in by an individual who is who was a member of congress or a delegate or whatever.
▶ 6:39:45And then all I'm doing to assuage the concern about whether or not it casts too wide a net in terms of, uh, people other than members is to say, okay, well, we'll get a list of amounts of money paid out to other people. Not not, um, staff members.
▶ 6:40:09And then see if it's warranted to proceed. I'm I'm just trying to move us off the dime we're on right now and and then see what else needs to be done. Nothing precludes further investigation. >> uh, chair recognizes Mr. sessions. Did you seek recognition? >> yes, sir. Thank you. Uh, Mr.
▶ 6:40:37Chairman, probably only this top row here back. Were there some ten years ago when this was a big issue? Oh, andy was here. Okay, well, it was a very difficult issue. It was, uh, in the papers. It was cost members their jobs. Some of it was true, some was untrue.
▶ 6:41:03It really didn't matter if you were guilty, if your name even appeared anywhere near it. There were some good people who got hurt in that. They took their lumps and they moved on. But there was an agreement that if you could, and this was by men and women, both sides, that if you you could engage in this without public scrutiny.
▶ 6:41:27I think it the, the fear at the time was it would hurt someone that claimed this and you wanted to protect them also. And I just think that we should get into a circumstance, perhaps like chairwoman fox said, let's go in and take a look at this, where we know what we're talking about before we do it. But I don't think in any way that I would be for protecting someone if they shouldn't be protected.
▶ 6:41:55But there were things that happened that we learned about at the time that were unintended, and even the person who was harmed said, well, he may not have meant it, and maybe he didn't, but I took it that way. And so I'm just simply saying, I just think we ought to have a better idea about what we're talking about here before we go in and assume that there was a right and a wrong, because it was meant to protect people at the time, it was not a compromise.
▶ 6:42:26That was it was by agreement that at the time we did this, that there was agreement to it. So I think that I would yield. >> I just want to point out that congresswoman bass thought that it was appropriate to say, with only redactions allowable for the personally identifiable information of victims, alleged victims and witnesses, that is an illusory caveat, because any settlement that was made, you're going to have the quarterly disclosure of the office.
▶ 6:42:53You're going to see who was there for one quarter then who wasn't there the next. So this is an illusory redaction protection of of of victims and alleged victims. And I just think that we need to be aware of that if we're going to do this. I mean, this is going to revictimize victims, and that sentence shouldn't be in there because it's pointless and it doesn't actually do what she's trying to accomplish. >> and I think that's correct.
▶ 6:43:18And with great respect to nancy, she just learned some things today about the motion, the issue, the ideas that she's pushing. And I think it ought to be thought about a little bit. And I think that we should revisit it, but with some facts and factors that are known and understood. I watched good people on both sides that got caught up in this. And it it is, it is. We tried to work out of it by agreement. Not because we compromised. I yield back. >> yield back.
▶ 6:43:48Any other member seek recognition on this or we're going to vote. Miss mason, you want to speak on the amendment to the amendment or you wait? We're going to vote on amendment. Amendment. Okay. Are you good with that? I want you to be happy. Alright. Hey, all those in favor of doctor fox's amendment to the amendment signify by saying aye? >> aye. >> all those opposed? No. In the in the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it.
▶ 6:44:17And the motion or the amendment to the amendment is agreed to. Now we will vote on the amendment as amended. The garcia amendment, as amended by doctor fox. All those in favor of the garcia amendment, as amended by doctor fox's amendment, signify by saying aye. >> aye. >> all those opposed? No, no. In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it.
▶ 6:44:47And the, uh, the amendment as amended is agreed to. So now we are back to voting on on the uh, mace number two amendment as amended. All those in favor signify by saying I. I all those opposed say no. In the opinion of the chair, the ayes have it. The motion is agreed to.
▶ 6:45:15Now, the last vote is the bell motion. Mr. bell, you want to explain your motion? I, I don't even remember what it was. >> yes, Mr. chair, um, um, my amendment was to, uh, bring in greg gregory bovino to this, uh, to this body. Uh, we think it's about accountability.
▶ 6:45:42It's about it's about exactly what this this committee should be doing. Um, there are operations in minnesota that, um, that many of us, all of us should have questions about. And I think this is a no brainer. This is exactly what we should be doing as an oversight, getting those questions answered.
▶ 6:46:13>> any other anyone else, miss mace? They passed. Okay. Any other? Anybody else? The recognition on the bell motion. Seeing none. All those in favor of the bell motion signify by saying aye. All those opposed say no. No. And the chair of the nos have it.
▶ 6:46:42A recorded vote has been requested. All votes will be rolled to the end of the debate. Now it's the end of the debate. We can vote on the bills, right. Or vote on the motions. Okay. So.
▶ 6:46:57The question is on motion number one, the motion members will record their votes using the electronic voting system. The clerk will now open the vote on the motion.
▶ 6:47:40You. Who wished to vote? Seeing none, the clerk will close the vote and report the vote. Total. >> Mr. chairman, on this vote, the eyes are 19. The nays are 24. >> the the nays have it, and the motion is not agreed to.
▶ 6:48:10Okay. The question is now on, uh, motion number two from representative mace. This deals with, uh, attorney general bondi. Members will record their votes using the electronic voting system. The clerk will now open the the board.
▶ 6:48:48Have have all members. >> yeah. I haven't seen it. >> and remember the the attorney general has offered to come in and give briefings. >> briefings or. >> hearing briefing briefings. >> jim jordan. Okay, okay.
▶ 6:49:18>> have I have all members. Have all members. >> it's not there's no commitment for her to come in as far as I understand, to come in. >> on cloud. We've. Still hold on.
▶ 6:50:09>> the yeas and nays having been. Regular order. >> are we not closing the vote because you don't want the attorney general to come in front of the oversight committee? >> because it's pretty rudimentary.
▶ 6:51:37>> who wish to be recorded? Does any member wish to change the vote? The clerk will close the vote. Report the vote. Total.
▶ 6:52:08>> on. Or close? >> yeah. Report to vote total, please. >> vote totals recorded.
▶ 6:52:36>> in our new committee room last september. So. >> yeah. Hold on.
▶ 6:53:24>> Mr. chairman. On this vote, the eyes are 24, the nays are 19. >> the ayes have it, and the motion is agreed to the next. The question is now on, uh, motion number four from Mr. bell. Members will record their votes using electronic voting system. The clerk will now open the vote on the bill. Motion.
▶ 6:53:57>> thanks for. >> have all members recorded, uh, been recorded who wish to be recorded? Seeing none, the clerk will now close the vote. Report the vote. Total. >> Mr. chairman, on this vote, the eyes are 19.
▶ 6:54:26The nays are 22. >> the nays have it in. The motion is not agreed to. In closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for their testimony today. Also, the next item of business is ratifying the. That's I ask unanimous consent that the committee approved the. With that ratifying the subcommittee. The next item of business is ratifying the new subcommittee roster.
▶ 6:54:54The clerks have distributed the roster electronically. I asked you to ask consent that the committee approve the appointments and assignments as shown on the roster. Without objection, the subcommittee roster is approved. With that, and without objection, all members have five legislative days within which to submit materials and additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses if there is no further business. Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.