▶ 0:52:00Should be looking for opportunities to accomplish the compatible goals of citing crucial infrastructure that is a good fit for a particular location, and encouraging in the state response program through fiscal year 2031.
▶ 0:52:26It also builds on a previous discussion draft of reauthorization legislation considered at a hearing last congress. This draft again includes expanding eligibility for brownfields grants to certain private entities, as well as a program to assist rural communities with developing competitive grant applications. It incorporates requests from brownfields stakeholders, such as increased award amount limits, and expanded eligible uses for funding.
▶ 0:52:55It also updates the criteria epa shall consider when ranking applications to support reuse for nationally significant infrastructure projects, such as critical mineral and semiconductor facilities, artificial intelligence infrastructure and energy generation from all power resources. The existing criteria only supports renewable energy and energy efficiency projects.
▶ 0:53:17The second bill, the brownfields infrastructure finance and innovation act, creates a new loan program similar to the water infrastructure finance and innovation act in transportation infrastructure, finance and innovation act programs used to finance water and transportation infrastructure projects. The third bill is the brownfields inventory and permitting efficiency act, which directs the epa and states to work together to compile a list of sites suitable for nationally significant infrastructure projects.
▶ 0:53:46It also streamlines permitting for projects on brownfield sites, requires epa to provide guidance to other federal agencies on how to conduct more efficient reviews of these previously disturbed and previously studied sites. Finally, it directs the government accountability office to conduct a review of impediments to timely and efficient removal of superfund sites from the national priorities list.
▶ 0:54:08Lastly, we have brownfields reauthorization for an affordable and revitalized america act offered by the minority. While this bill increases some grant award limits and directs the epa to waive cost share requirements in certain circumstances, it also significantly increases the authorization of appropriations for both brownfields grant program and the state response programs. We have four witnesses here today to help us analyze these proposals. First, we have Mr.
▶ 0:54:38Chris wells, executive director of the mississippi department of environmental quality and the current president of the environmental council of the states, to provide state perspective. We also welcome Mr. gerald pouncey, senior counsel at taft, stettinius and hollister. Mr. pouncey has led numerous efforts to permit, permit and finance redevelopment of industrial sites, ports and former military facilities.
▶ 0:55:02Also joining us is the honorable alan thompson, mayor of davis, west virginia, and representing the national brownfields coalition, who will speak to the impact of brownfields program in local communities. Finally, we have Mr. david robinson, executive vice president, strategic development for aligned data centers, whose testimony will address his company's work on brownfield sites.
▶ 0:55:26I'd like to reiterate that these bills are all discussion drafts, so I look forward to hearing robust discussion on these proposals, both today and on future occasions. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the ranking member of the subcommittee, the gentleman from new york, for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Epa's brownfields program has a long history of bipartisan support, in large part because it has proven to be so successful.
▶ 0:55:55More than 42,000 sites have been revitalized, enabling blighted properties to be put back into productive use, increasing property values and local tax revenue, preserving green fields and creating jobs. And the program has done this work incredibly efficiently. Each federal dollar spent by epa leverages nearly 20 nonfederal dollars. So I am grateful that we're having the opportunity to consider legislation to reauthorize the program.
▶ 0:56:22In my view, there are some tweaks that can strengthen the program, including raising the cap on grant amounts and allowing for cost share requirements to be waived in small and disadvantaged communities. Along with reauthorizing the program in the state response program. These reforms would represent modest but important improvements. These concepts are well represented in brownfields reauthorization for an affordable and revitalized america act offered by ranking member pallone.
▶ 0:56:50Some of these ideas are also included in the majority's brownfields revitalization for a better tomorrow act. I would recommend to my friends in the majority that we build upon these areas of consensus because, unfortunately, the majority's proposals go far beyond the reforms that I have outlined and risks jeopardizing the program's historic bipartisan support.
▶ 0:57:12First, the majority's proposals create a new category of properties to be prioritized for brownfields, funding so-called nationally significant infrastructure facilities. These sites include data centers, critical minerals processing, and semiconductor manufacturing. I want to be clear that I am not opposed to brownfields being revitalized for these purposes, if that's what communities want.
▶ 0:57:36But I'm concerned by the notion of tilting the program with its limited resources toward these types of projects. There is no shortage of private capital, as well as other federal grants and loans being used for these types of projects. Hyperscalers are developing data centers with price tags well over $1 billion.
▶ 0:57:57We should ask ourselves whether giving tech companies a few hundred thousand dollars more in federal funds is truly the best use of our resources, or could those funds be better utilized for purposes that aren't as well resourced, such as building affordable housing and developing parks?
▶ 0:58:15Additionally, the majority's definition of nationally significant infrastructure facilities replaces an existing prioritization for renewable energy and energy efficiency projects, expanding the program to prioritize any and all energy generation. There was bipartisan support to prioritize renewables in the program nearly a decade ago.
▶ 0:58:38Adding solar to an industrial site can be an attractive option, allowing for productive land use without major risks of recontaminating the property. The same isn't true if that site were to be used for a coal fired power plant. But the majority's proposal would prioritize these types of projects equally.
▶ 0:58:55The brownfields inventory and permitting efficiency act would mandate that states use at least 5% of their limited federal funds to develop an inventory for nationally significant infrastructure facilities. I have no problem if states want to spend their money this way, but it makes no sense to force them to do so, especially if they would rather use those dollars to fund remediation activities. This bill also provides a nepa exemption for nationally significant infrastructure projects.
▶ 0:59:25This is a complete nonstarter. A site receiving a couple hundred thousand dollars in brownfields money in no way justifies that site being completely exempted from the nepa process. That is policy making far beyond the scope of brownfields reauthorization effort. Finally, the brownfields infrastructure finance and innovation act is a solution in search of a problem. It would allow epa to provide loans and loan guarantees up to $4 million, rather than traditional grants.
▶ 0:59:53If the issue is stretching federal dollars further by allowing for revolving loans, epa already has a track record of doing this. But this pilot program would siphon limited dollars away from the wide range of projects that communities want, and toward that limited definition of nationally significant infrastructure facilities. The brownfields program is an incredible investment of federal dollars.
▶ 1:00:16It enables local governments to support environmental and economic revitalization by turning a liability into an opportunity. The program is working. Let's not mess with a good thing. I look forward to today's discussion, and I hope that we can work together on the areas of consensus to make certain this program has the resources and the authorities necessary to continue its great work. And with that, I yield back, Mr. chair. >> thank you. The gentleman yields back. Thank you, Mr. tom cole.
▶ 1:00:43I will now recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement beginning with. Chairman palmer is also a member of the oversight committee, and they're having votes right now. So he'll be in and out. So I'll be here for a few minutes. So I appreciate our witnesses for being here today. And and I want to thank chairman palmer and the team for holding this hearing over. Epa brownfields grant program has had bipartisan support and served as an important tool for remediating contaminated sites and restoring them to productive use for more than two decades.
▶ 1:01:11The last reauthorization of this program occurred in 2018 and expired at the end of fiscal year 2023. When authorizations lapsed, agencies are forced to make decisions based on outdated guidance from congress. So we're here today to discuss four bills to provide direction to epa on how to best serve those we represent back home.
▶ 1:01:34The first three bills on today's hearing agenda would support both the cleanup and reuse of brownfield sites by removing barriers to the cleanup of contaminated sites, maximizing the value of taxpayer funding, and incentivizing reuse of brownfields for onshoring manufacturing, building ai data centers, and many other productive uses. Instead of forcing new industry growth to turn over fresh greenfield sites.
▶ 1:01:59The proposals before us today will accelerate the remediation and redevelopment of brownfield sites, including the more complicated or larger sites, while helping find locations for much needed infrastructure. The minority's bill would lock in an elevated funding levels and make more modest policy changes to the brownfields program. However, taxpayer funds cannot be the only solution. We need creative solutions that require the private sector, localities, states and tribes to all come together.
▶ 1:02:28I'm confident we can deliver more innovative solutions this congress if everyone is willing to come to the table. I look forward to a robust discussion today and engagement with all the interested parties, all our witnesses for being here, and I will yield back my time and the chair will recognize the ranking member of the full committee, the gentleman from new jersey, Mr. pallone, for five minutes for his opening statement. >> thank you, chairman guthrie.
▶ 1:02:52Today we're discussing proposals to reauthorize the environmental protection agency's brownfields program, which continues to be a shining example of how government can protect the public health of our communities while also stimulating economic growth. Since I partnered with the late republican representative paul gillmor of ohio over 20 years ago to write the brownfields law, the program has consistently enjoyed bipartisan support.
▶ 1:03:17We've come together to reauthorize the program to revitalize communities around the nation, cleaning up environmental contamination, boosting public health, and bringing back economic growth and jobs. Every congressional district is home to at least one of these sites. Since its inception, more than 42,000 brownfield sites have been revitalized and made ready for development around the nation.
▶ 1:03:41These projects leverage nearly two 230,000 jobs and more than $44 billion in economic development. And for every dollar the federal government invests in brownfields program, we get roughly $20 back in economic return, showcasing the win win scenario that the program produces. And I think we can all agree that this program is more than worth every dollar we put into it.
▶ 1:04:05That's why my discussion draft the brownfields reauthorization for an affordable and revitalized america act, continues this record of success by increasing funding for the program and increasing grant amounts to tackle harder to reach projects. It also waives the cost share requirement for communities with the most need. And while the republican discussion drafts before us have promising ideas overall, unfortunately they move the brownfields program in the wrong direction and could unnecessarily imperil this bipartisan program.
▶ 1:04:35Most notably, they include a new definition for nationally significant infrastructure projects that I think are shortsighted. It would open the door for private industry like data centers, fossil energy generation and mining operations to take public funds from the brownfields program and create backward incentives that prioritize polluting interests over local control. Americans across the country are facing higher monthly energy bills thanks to data centers.
▶ 1:05:04The cancellation of cheap renewable energy projects and the trump administration forcing expensive fossil generation to stay online. Yet these republican drafts propose to take away money from one of our most successful public programs to funnel it to the very same corporate interests. In reauthorizing the brownfields program, we must ensure it serves those who need it most. State and local governments, nonprofits and communities who should have final say in how the land is developed.
▶ 1:05:32Ultimately, they may choose to approve a new park or a low income housing or a data center on remediated land. But congress should not predetermine that outcome. Unfortunately, that's what the republicans would have us do. So I can't support taking funds needed to clean up and revitalize local communities, to give even more handouts to big corporations. Thankfully, there are some things which are draft bills have agreement on.
▶ 1:06:00We all include increased funding for the overall program and increased grant amounts for harder to reach projects. Although my discussion draft includes more funding, we also all the bills remove the cost share requirement for small and disadvantaged communities. And these are the same priorities raised at previous brownfields hearings before the subcommittee. So my hope, Mr.
▶ 1:06:20Chairman, is that we can use these agents of agreement as the basis for a strong and unified brownfields reauthorization bill that can pass this committee and be signed into law before the end of the fiscal year. We must reauthorize and fund the program to continue its critical mission. And I stand ready to work with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, Mr. chairman, to do that. And I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back. We now conclude with member opening statements.
▶ 1:06:46The chair would like to remind members that pursuant to the committee rules, all members opening statements will be made part of the record. Second, we want to thank our witnesses for being here today and taking the time to testify before the subcommittee. The witnesses have an opportunity to give an opening statement, followed by a round of questions for members.
▶ 1:07:08And our witnesses before us today are chris wells, executive director of the mississippi department of environmental quality and president, environmental council of states gerald r pouncey. Is that correctly pouncey? Um, senior counsel. Taffe. Tetanus. I know how to say it because the ship named after. Yeah. And and hollister, um, the honorable alan thompson, mayor. Town of davis, west virginia. Uh, national brownfields coalition.
▶ 1:07:36And david w robinson, executive vice president of strategic development, align data centers. We appreciate you all for being here today. You'll have five minutes. I think at one minute you'll get you'll have a green light. One minute you get a yellow light. And when it turns red, it's about this time to about wrap up so we can get to the questions we're all excited about doing. So we appreciate you being here. Mr. wells, you are recognized for your five minute opening statement. >> thank you, chairman guthrie.
▶ 1:08:04Uh, I'm very appreciative of the opportunity to be here today to testify, uh, on this matter. I'm here today to express strong support for the reauthorization of the epa brownfields program and innovations that can help advance economic and energy progress while maintaining the fundamental mission of brownfields programs to ensure environmental protection and remediation at the state and local levels.
▶ 1:08:29In my view, and in the view of most, if not all, of my fellow state environmental leaders, the circle of 128 a and 100 4k brownfield programs are among the most effective state federal partnership programs that we have with relatively limited funding.
▶ 1:08:46These programs consistently produce positive results from an environmental perspective, brownfield redevelopment preserves green space while transforming blighted properties that pose environmental risks, with a range of community benefiting outcomes such as parks, commercial, industrial, space, energy sites and other facilities. Partnerships among state, local and federal governments, the private sector and local organizations are delivering cleanups at sites previously ignored or marginalized.
▶ 1:09:14On the economic front, brownfield programs can serve as significant sources of job creation, revenue enhancement through income, property and sales tax, and infrastructure development, including in the areas of power generation, data centers, and other commercial and industrial processing facilities. All of these benefits help meet local, regional, and national needs in mississippi.
▶ 1:09:39The results are tangible through 70 epa 104 grants totaling nearly $30 million. Our communities have leveraged more than 300 million in private investment, roughly a 10 to 1 return, and created more than 800 jobs and returned over 700 properties to productive use. As mentioned earlier. Nationally, epa reports an average leverage of approximately 20 to 1, underscoring the strong economic return this program consistently delivers.
▶ 1:10:07This is particularly important in small and rural communities. Let me give you an example. The fry building in natchez, mississippi, which is a community of about 14,500 people, is a cradle to reuse success story.
▶ 1:10:21Federal assessment, cleanup and revolving loan fund assistance is helping natchez turn a long vacant building into infrastructure to support the redevelopment of the historic eola hotel, expected to create approximately 75 jobs and generate over 30 million in private investment, this is just one of several major projects that the city of natchez has been able to leverage due to federal brownfield dollars in combination with state brownfield program support, liability protection, and
▶ 1:10:53Incentives. That project likely would not have been possible, but for brownfield program. And that's the key point. Brownfield program works because it removes uncertainty at the local level for community and potential investors. Liability protection gives private investors confidence.
▶ 1:11:11Technical assistance gives local officials guidance, and disciplined oversight ensures public health and environmental protection to sustain the momentum the states of this program, states ask congress to provide robust 128 a funding, along with strong circle of section 104 epa brownfield multi-purpose assessment revolving loan fund and cleanup grant funding. We would welcome the proposed increase to 128 aa funding.
▶ 1:11:39This type of support is the fastest and most efficient way to provide noncompetitive brownfields assessment, planning and cleanup assistance to small, rural, and low capacity public entities and nonprofits. In addition, we would endorse an increase in the 104 k grant maximum for cleanup grants. States understand the need to include limited waivers from cost sharing requirements for small and rural communities, and in fact, very small and rural communities often lack the capacity to manage competitive 104 grants directly.
▶ 1:12:12In mississippi, our targeted brownfield assessment efforts have helped communities like alligator and eupora and utica, places that would otherwise struggle to access these resources, supporting state administered assistance for these communities ensures that no community is left behind and that rural america can fully participate in redevelopment opportunities. The proposed increase to 100 4k funding is much needed also, but without bolstering state, tribal and brownfield support.
▶ 1:12:41Reaching rural and small communities is not achievable across the nation. States and tribes. Seize the opportunity provided by the iija supplemental 128 aa funds to elevate and enhance their brownfield programs. To reach communities in the greatest need, there's a need to continue that support. States recognize the importance of using brownfield sites and innovative ways to meet growing needs and emerging challenges.
▶ 1:13:07And and ecos looks forward to and welcomes the opportunity to engage with the members of the subcommittee to ensure that enhancements to the program are, uh, are just that beneficial to the to the program and enhance what is already working. Thank you. >> thank you, thank you for your opening statement, Mr. pouncy. You're now recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I have the opportunity to speak before the committee today.
▶ 1:13:35Uh, I have spent almost the entire portion of my 40 years, uh, of career in the environmental area in redeveloping brownfield properties across the country and in structuring the financing and the economic incentives to make these properties work. But it's not just a professional interest of mine.
▶ 1:13:58I grew up in a cotton mill village in a small part of eastern alabama, and my father and my uncle worked in that mill, worked for the mill. And if you the that mill closed 40 years ago. If you drove by that site today, what you're going to see is a shell of a building and rubble 40 years later.
▶ 1:14:20And besides the job losses, what's really disappointing about that is the fact that you have massive infrastructure that exists that previously served that mill power, water, rail, and that's the opportunities that we are losing and that we are wasting.
▶ 1:14:42Uh, I would offer, after 40 years in this business that that there are two fundamental conclusions I've come to. One is that if we want effective cleanup. And by the way, all of these programs should be judged not upon the dollar spent, but upon. Was cleanup actually accomplished at the end of the day?
▶ 1:15:06And I have seen that if you want effective cleanup, the best way to get it is by incentivizing private the private sector to undertake this cleanup as part of redevelopment efforts. It's consistent with the construction that occurs, and it's consistent with the liquidity that is generated as part of these transactions. At the end of the day, once again, the measuring stick solely be did cleanup occur?
▶ 1:15:32I would note also that there are significant challenges to the private sector in undertaking this cleanup. In most instances, it is going to be much better for them financially, without incentives to go to another location, to go to a greenfield site.
▶ 1:15:52And that's what we must somehow bridge the gap on, is that that business decision, that primary business decision that they need to go to somewhere else to make the dollars work. That, to me is the issue that we see and we deal with constantly. Now, there are other issues associated with brownfield sites. It's the cost. It's the uncertainty of where we get to the finish.
▶ 1:16:19Three is the fact of the timing, and I can't overemphasize the issues we have with respect to redeveloping these properties in terms of timing and in terms of waiting on regulatory approvals. What would I suggest a solutions number one, if this will come to discussion on grants, is let's get these properties from federal jurisdiction down to state brownfield programs.
▶ 1:16:48Why do I suggest this state offers various state brownfield programs, offer many incentives for cleanup, including financial incentives in the way of property tax relief or income tax relief. Two the state has the ability at the state level to implement the cleanup and approve the cleanup and oversee the cleanup on a much more rapid basis. Dealing with the time issues we've talked about.
▶ 1:17:14And third, if you look at the state programs and I'll give you an example, if you look at the state programs, they have been the programs that have demonstrated effectiveness. And I'll give you one example, georgia's brownfield program. I'm from atlanta and have been involved in a lot of developments, been including a number in georgia. Georgia's brownfield program has had almost 1600 sites go into that program and 900 exit that program with cleaned up sites.
▶ 1:17:44That program has been around for roughly 20 years. If you looked at the state superfund program, which relies on enforcement by agencies, we have half that number that have gone on the the superfund, and only a third of those have been cleaned up. And that's an almost twice the time. So you can see the huge benefit of incentivizing these brownfield cleanups, particularly getting them down to the state level.
▶ 1:18:14Second issue I would note is we need to clarify the innocent owner of the bonafide prospective purchaser provisions in cercla. They've been subject to too much interpretation by agencies and have had and the result has been that it has delayed or caused uncertainty in the market. And three, I would like some consideration to be made as to whether it's possible to accelerate the nepa review process. I'm not suggesting it be eliminated altogether, but is there some way to accelerate it so the.
▶ 1:18:41We don't get to know by never saying yes, which I fear is where we have become on the grants. I would close by noting the following. I do think it's important for grant money, critically important for grant money to be made available to these state brownfield programs so they can go out and do the lion's share of the work.
▶ 1:19:02I would also note that we should be focused on programs that are at or near shovel ready, because once again, the measure should be is cleanup actually taking place. And I would I would close with those remarks. >> thank you. Thank you I appreciate that. Uh, the chair now recognizes mayor thompson. Understand your beat. Navy. >> I am beat navy. >> beat navy fellow grad. So thank you. So, uh, Mr.
▶ 1:19:30Mayor thompson, you're recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. What class? I was 87. What are you. >> I was 75. >> 75. My tech officer was 75. >> chairman. Guthrie, ranking member. Tonko, members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is doctor allen thompson.
▶ 1:19:46I'm proudly serving in my third term as mayor of davis, west virginia, where I have lived with my wife since retiring from an army career that began at west point and concluded in service as a senior executive at the major general equivalent level. Davis is a town of roughly 800 residents in the alleghany highlands, about three hours from washington, D.C. surrounded by blackwater falls state park and the monongahela national forest. Tourism and outdoor recreation power our economy.
▶ 1:20:14The late senator byrd called this region the scenic crown jewel of west virginia, a description that still holds true despite our size. We welcome up to 20,000 visitors each week. Today, I speak on behalf of the national brownfields coalition with a simple message the epa brownfields program works.
▶ 1:20:33It is one of the strongest examples of federalism and public private partnership, helping communities clean up contaminated properties and return them to productive use, creating jobs, growing local economies, and improving quality of life. We strongly support a clean reauthorization. What we oppose are proposals that would fundamentally alter the program, drain limited resources, and undermine local communities.
▶ 1:21:01In davis, we have seen this program success an abandoned contaminated gas station on our main street was transformed with epa brownfield support into a thriving business that generates jobs and tax revenue. That's exactly what this program was designed to do.
▶ 1:21:18At the same time, we face a very different proposal a private llc seeking to build a 1600 megawatt power plant in support of a data center complex of up to 10,000 acres just outside our downtown on a brownfield site. This project would fundamentally alter our tourism economy, landscape, public health and community character. Davis strongly opposes it.
▶ 1:21:43The fact is that the brownfield site, because it is a brownfield site, doesn't automatically make the project appropriate under the legislative package before you. Such a project could be labeled nationally significant infrastructure facility. It would receive priority access to epa brownfield funds and be exempt from review under the national environmental protection act. Nepa, therefore, eliminating meaningful local consent. The prospect that deeply concerns brownfield communities nationwide.
▶ 1:22:12The brownfields program has always been about helping communities, not subsidizing billion dollar industrial ventures. Meanwhile, funding is projected to drop sharply from nearly $350 million annually to $98 million when the infrastructure investment and jobs act support ends in 2026, there are an estimated 450,000 brownfield sites nationwide, and with fewer than one half of the grant applications funded, the
▶ 1:22:43Program is already oversubscribed. We should not allow private llcs to compete directly with small towns, cities, states and non-profits for scarce dollars. The current proposal would create three major problems first, making private for profit llc eligible for direct grants. Diverting funds from local governments and nonprofits.
▶ 1:23:04Second, granting preferential treatment and nepa exemptions for heavy industrial use, thus removing an essential safeguard that ensures community input and finally creating a duplicative financing structure that would concentrate funds in the handful of very large projects. These changes are unnecessary. The existing framework already supports public private collaboration, and revolving loan funds provide low interest financing to private developers.
▶ 1:23:36The structure works. What we need now is stability and certainty. The national brownfield coalition supports a clean reauthorization that authorizes robust funding up to $450 million annually, raises per grant caps for assessment, cleanup, and multi-purpose grants.
▶ 1:23:56Provides flexibility for support and rural communities, including potential match waivers, strengthen state programs and removes the arbitrary 5% administrative cost cap for brownfield guarantees. What we support reinstating the brownfield tax incentive, which previously helped drive private cleanup investment nationwide. Let me close with this. We all support infrastructure, energy independence and innovation.
▶ 1:24:26But heavy industry can thrive without diverting brownfields funding, sidelining states or overriding local voices. The epa brownfield program is not broken. Please do not fix it in a way that breaks it. On behalf of the national brownfields coalition and the people of davis, I thank you and look forward to your questions. >> thank you, Mr. thompson. Mr. robinson, you're now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. >> chairman palmer. >> ranking member, tonko, chairman. Guthrie, ranking member, pallone.
▶ 1:24:54>> and members of the committee and the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. I am dave robinson, evp of aligned data centers. Aligned is an industry leading provider of innovative, sustainable and adaptive digital infrastructure powering the world's most complex and demanding work and cloud and ai workloads.
▶ 1:25:15To date, aligned is investing over $45 billion in its 57 us data centers in nine sites, nine states, and currently has over 1000 employees globally. We will need to invest tens of billions of additional dollars in more than double our headcount. I'm here today to share what aligned has done to reclaim remnants of america's past and optimize them as we build america's future economy.
▶ 1:25:38We're admittedly biased, but firmly believe that data centers provide an ideal opportunity in leveraging and repurposing brownfield sites to grow investment jobs, tax revenues, and supply chain ecosystems. Right now, our nation is racing to deploy the infrastructure required to lead the world in artificial intelligence and cloud computing. This is not just a technological race. It's a critical national security imperative. But we face a choice on where we build at aligned.
▶ 1:26:06We believe that one of the most effective solutions is to revitalize and repurpose our nation's dormant industrial sites. Where possible, we prioritize the redevelopment of brownfields and transform these properties into high value community assets, bringing them back into productive, sustainable use. The reality of acquiring these brownfield sites is that they're rarely turnkey.
▶ 1:26:27Any reuse requires comprehensive environmental remediation to protect our employees, contractors and customers who will be at those sites while also benefiting the surrounding community. By removing existing risks. We abate these legacy hazards and restore the property to a safe standard.
▶ 1:26:46We're a firm believer in the power of public and private partnerships, and believe the federal government has an important role to play in encouraging and incentivizing redevelopment of brownfield sites through these programs that remove regulatory barriers and accelerate permitting and other regulatory processes. These industrial sites often possess exactly what the digital economy requires substantial land area, robust existing utility infrastructure, and favorable industrial zoning.
▶ 1:27:13By maximizing these legacy assets, we not only expedite the deployment of critical computing infrastructure, but we do so while improving local environmental conditions. We believe that data centers are among the best developments for communities. Not only do they bring significant capital investment and jobs into communities, they can provide outsized local tax revenues without corresponding burdens on police and fire services, local schools or roads that other large scale projects might present.
▶ 1:27:41Some examples of what aligned is doing to put this into practice in perkins township, ohio, which is in erie county, aligned, is breathing new life into a shuttered manufacturing plant, a cornerstone of america, burying america's burying production for nearly 70 years at the time of its closing. In its place, we're constructing a state of the art digital campus, anchoring the greater sandusky regional economy for a new era of tech progress.
▶ 1:28:08Local leaders share that this revitalization has become a powerful symbol of civic pride. For nearly a decade, millions of families drove past this site on their way to the cedar point cedar point amusement park and saw a hulking, abandoned, decaying industrial facility. Now, our data center campus is a modern testament to perkins township's forward looking future. In west jordan, utah, we transformed a semiconductor facility built in the late 70s that sat empty for over five years.
▶ 1:28:38Today, it's a functioning three building data center campus hosting prominent tech companies, driving tax revenue and job creation. And frederick, maryland, the former east alcoa alcoa aluminum manufacturing site is getting a second life, bringing stable tax revenue and high paying jobs, but also investments in robust fiber connectivity. In ohio, we transformed a former coal fired power plant into a massive data center campus. We're in the process of doing that.
▶ 1:29:07Beyond comprehensive environmental remediation, our reuse strategy also reduces the strain on local watersheds by transitioning these properties from heavy manufacturing to modern digital infrastructure, we dramatically reduce the water usage. In perkins township, for example, we reduced the amount of water consumed by 99% compared to the historical use. The economic ripple effect of this strategy is profound.
▶ 1:29:33Since 2017, the data center industry's total tax contributions have surged to over $162 billion in 2023. In loudoun county, virginia alone, data centers contribute more than 1 billion in local tax revenue this year, which is 45% of the county's budget. Significant increases as well.
▶ 1:29:53In neighboring prince william county, where the tax revenues have grown by 953% since just 2020, each of our brownfield sites fuels thousands of local construction jobs and hundreds of long term operational roles. By prioritizing local vendors, we invest in the community members of the committee. If america if america is going to win the global ai race, we cannot afford to be stalled by a lack of infrastructure.
▶ 1:30:19America's abandoned factories and closed plants should not be monuments to a bygone era. They are the blueprints for our future. By incentivizing redevelopment of brownfields internationally significant infrastructure facilities, you can help us clean up our environment, revitalize local economies, and build the critical infrastructure required to secure american technological dominance for decades to come. Thank you sir. >> I thank you all for your testimony. We will now move into the question and answer portion of the hearing.
▶ 1:30:48I will begin the questioning and recognize the gentleman from virginia, Mr. griffith, for his five minutes of questioning. Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I appreciate it, Mr. ponzi. I represent a very rural part of virginia, and we often hear that brownfields grants help pay for broad testing that identifies contamination. But rural communities and organizations are not ultimately then awarded brownfields grants for further cleanup. How can we encourage more cleanup and not just site assessment in rural areas?
▶ 1:31:22>> a very. >> good question. Uh, we struggle with that throughout the south, uh, as well. Uh, I do there are a couple of thoughts that come to mind in that regard. Uh, number one, is there, uh, is having someone, uh, developer of some product having someone at the table working with the community when those funds are awarded?
▶ 1:31:52Uh, I would much rather see funds spent toward assessment and then immediate cleanup rather than seeing funds spent toward assessment, a report, and then it being put in a drawer in the drawer closed, which is what I fear we see too often. >> and that's my concern. Exactly. >> and so so I do think that it's you've got to have someone at the table as part of that process. In my mind, that's prepared to move forward with some level of redevelopment.
▶ 1:32:21>> should we have should we have in the bill, some set aside funds for rural areas so that that doesn't happen? >> I have, uh, I don't think that you're going to see the brownfield successful process extend beyond urban cores and extend beyond ports and other major industrial areas without having some set aside for the rural communities.
▶ 1:32:46>> I appreciate that, and I'm going to switch gears, and we don't have a bill in front of us today that would do this. But one of the previous hearings that we had on brownfields, somebody came up with the suggestion, and I happen to like it a lot. And that was we do preclearance that not depending on the industry or such, but that if a community wanted to invest the money, they had a site and I have a town in my district I'm thinking of actually a little city that's got a site, and if they could get it pre-cleared, it would make it so much more marketable, uh, for companies, if they knew that the the brownfield site was pre-cleared,
▶ 1:33:18All the stuff had already been done and they had a seal of, I call it the good housekeeping seal of approval. I guess it would be the epa good good housekeeping seal, but so that they a company coming in wouldn't have to wait six months, then for additional reports and studies, they could move right in if they wanted to. Yeah. Your thoughts on that? >> yeah. Congressman, I, uh, a couple of aspects on that. One is I don't think you could be in a position where you can where it's going to be cost effective to both investigate and clean up the site before you market it to the developer.
▶ 1:33:50Uh, the reason for that is because very often that construction process is comparable to or an integral part of the cleanup process. And so it's much more cost effective to, uh, for that developer and for the community and for the grant itself, if you're able to, uh, if you do the testing, you've had input into the testing, because that's going to be consistent with what your structure is
▶ 1:34:20Going to be, and then you're able to take that testing and implement the cleanup as part of the redevelopment itself. And and that's what I think is the is a little bit of the hurdle there to trying to preclear these rural sites, uh, and then bring the developer in, uh, the successful rural development we have done and candidly, that includes some data centers which have been, uh, have have been in those instances where we had some level of testing done, but we went in and helped orchestrate
▶ 1:34:51The testing in terms of how it would fit the development that was occurring. And then we spent the and then we were able to integrate the development into the cleanup. >> well, and I appreciate that input. Uh, I would just say the site I'm thinking of and you, you nailed it with the plant that your father had worked at. Here. We have a facility that's got everything you need. And before the infrastructure goes away or falls apart, the community wants to do something with it.
▶ 1:35:18They have acquired ownership, and it sure would be helpful if we could figure out some way to to fast track it. Uh, if we could. So any ideas that you have after this hearing, please don't hesitate to let me know. I would greatly appreciate it. >> I certainly will. >> and with that, madam. Excuse me, Mr. chairman, I yield back. The gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york, Mr. tom kean, for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:35:44Uh, as I stated earlier, uh, I would like to for us to focus our attention on areas of consensus for thompson, both republicans and democrats have proposals that would raise the maximum brownfields award from 500 thou to 1 million. Do you support that change? And why is it important, if you do, to allow epa the flexibility to provide larger awards?
▶ 1:36:15>> thank you. I was paying attention, I wasn't sleeping. >> no, no, no. >> I think the, uh, the increase in grant awards is welcome. Uh, there are projects that right now could use more funding to be able to be done, and that would allow more brownfields facilities and sites to be addressed and taken care of so that they can be, uh, put back into service and be productive in terms of revenue and, and job creation.
▶ 1:36:45>> thank you. And, Mr. wells, based on your experience with large awards, be helpful for some communities to remediate bigger and more complex properties. >> thank you for the question. And the short answer is absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, the what we're facing, um, is an ever increasing cost of doing business. And that applies in this realm as it does in many others. >> thank you.
▶ 1:37:12And republicans and democrats have also both proposed allowing epa to waive cost share requirements in certain circumstances. This is also a feature of brownfields funding included in the infrastructure investment and jobs act. So, mayor thompson, back to you again. Can you talk about how cost share requirements can be a barrier for some communities to pursue an epa grant? And do you believe waiving these requirements for struggling communities is warranted? >> I do believe it's warranted.
▶ 1:37:40For example, when you look at rural and small communities in davis, we have a budget of about $2 million. We have to provide water. We have to provide sanitary sewer, public works. We have to buy equipment and and replace assets.
▶ 1:37:53We don't have that much discretionary funds to be able to fund, you know, all of the requirements that come under brownfield program to get a waiver of the cost share is a significant impact for small and rural communities in a very positive way, and it would be very, very welcome. >> thank you. And, Mr. wells, I'm sure you work with some disadvantaged in rural communities in mississippi.
▶ 1:38:23Could avoiding a cost share make or break a project for some communities? >> I think absolutely yes. Is the answer. Um, the cost share, uh, a cost share waiver would certainly, uh, ease access for certain communities, as the mayor alluded to.
▶ 1:38:42Uh, but I also think that it's important not to lose sight of the, the support at the state level through the 128 grants, uh, to the, to the state agencies to provide technical assistance and so forth. So I think the two are kind of hand in hand. >> thank you. I believe that, uh, the views we've just heard on these policy changes are broadly shared by local and state government stakeholders and should serve as the foundation for a bipartisan reauthorization effort.
▶ 1:39:09One of my concerns with the majority's proposals is that they take resources away from limited, oversubscribed assessment and remediation grants. This includes the brownfields infrastructure finance and innovation act, which would provide opportunities for loans at the expense of providing grants, uh, to more communities. Those loans would be focused on data centers, critical mineral processing and semiconductors, manufacturing.
▶ 1:39:35Local governments and the people they represent should have a say in the types of economic development projects in their communities. So, mayor thompson, how do you feel about more dollars being directed to these types of projects in the form of loans, at the expense of grants, going to a wider range of projects that a community may be interested in developing, such as affordable housing?
▶ 1:39:59>> we very much want to see that, uh, that the dollars in the brownfield program stay in the entities that are qualified for those programs today, I think to make more organizations or public, uh, businesses eligible for brownfields funding dilutes the resources that are available, and it hampers local and public sector entities from being able to compete.
▶ 1:40:26So there is a revolving loan program and it's working, but it needs more dollars and more resources put into it so that it can be more effective as a revolving fund. Right now, it's very limited. It's worked. It needs more resourcing. And and I think it would do a great job if you can do that. >> I thank you for that. I see my time has expired. So I thank you. And, uh, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> the ranking member yields.
▶ 1:40:55Uh, I will continuing the the questioning and recognize myself for five minutes. >> as we've. >> held hearings this congress to examine how policy can help spur economic growth while balancing environmental protection needs, is becoming incredibly clear that federal investment works best when used to leverage local resources and development interests. Development of brownfields is a prime example of this dynamic.
▶ 1:41:22These sites would be ripe redevelopment if not for the additional challenges represented by the use of these brownfields. More difficult and resource intensive, an additional burden to development that is especially difficult for under-resourced areas like those that I represent.
▶ 1:41:43When a community is interested in turning a brownfield site from an abandoned or underutilized property into viable economic engine, the epa's brownfields program can help lessen that burden and provide the initial push needed for private investment to take interest. Mr. pouncy, you discussed the importance of private public partnership in your written testimony. How do you usually come about, and how could the epa's brownfields program better support these public private partnerships?
▶ 1:42:17>> most of these public private partnerships are with a local development authority. And, uh, and a developer, some some developer who would who's looking to come in and bring business or industry into that area. And that may be as a result of the economic development authority approaching them for that to bring this investment in.
▶ 1:42:37And the economic development authority may have located a a site or a group of sites that is then pitched to the developer, and the developers agreed to move forward with those, uh, those those sites, uh, may be impacted often. They are.
▶ 1:42:52And the approach in that instance would be and it can either be were there to be some amendments that could either be a joint application by the private developer and the and the public entity to get this money so that it can be used for cleanup, to allow that project to go forward. Or in some instances, it can be a grant that is made to the public entity, the development authority. Currently, that would be the structure. And then we reach an agreement regarding who then implements the cleanup policy.
▶ 1:43:23>> how could the focus in the brownfield inventory and permitting efficiency act efficiency act on identifying brownfield sites be ideal for reuse for a nationally significant infrastructure? How could that help with encouraging the private sector that you just mentioned to have that investment in former industrial areas, in the large brownfield sites that you mentioned in your testimony, right, right. >> I could point to two things there which are absolutely critical.
▶ 1:43:50One is some database under the epa, and we have worked I've worked on some organizations to help create that, a database that identifies these impacted sites and shows certain critical components, such as proximity to utilities such as proximity, transportation corridors, other things like that which the local community could then use to present this. So I think that's I think that's one way to accomplish that.
▶ 1:44:18Is this this database or list? Uh, and then I think two, in terms of, of encouraging that type of, of development, that type of cooperation, I think it there is some measure of, uh, of support from grants that might assist with that as well. >> thank you. Mr.
▶ 1:44:38Wells, in your written testimony, you stated that any new program should avoid duplicative requirements and a diversion of funds from traditional brownfield grants. Do you think that loan and loan guarantees that we are discussing today would be helpful when addressing any gaps in needs that are existing? Revolving loan programs is a top of mind subject that could be part of that. Do you think that that could have an effective use?
▶ 1:45:09>> I think that revolving loan fund programs have been proven to be successful. And, um, in other, uh, in other settings, I think it can work here. I think the concern from the state regulators standpoint is the existing program is, is functions. It functions well, it's been successful.
▶ 1:45:28And the concern would be to, uh, that any enhancement to the program that would divert funds from the core program, uh, could be problematic or could reduce the effectiveness of the core program. Those enhancements, uh, are there's some good ideas if but if they can be implemented in such a way as to not divert funds away from the core program, I think that would be the best of all. World both.
▶ 1:45:59Best of both worlds. I think it taking some sort of all of the above approach would make sense. >> communities are highly motivated to get these brownfield sites back up and running. I think we can all recognize that today they benefit local economies, and beyond that, I look forward to working with my colleagues on this committee to bolster efforts from both sides of the aisle through targeted and effective federal assistance. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 1:46:26I now recognize the ranking member of the entire committee, Mr. pallone, for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I thank the witnesses for joining us today. I wanted to mention the bipartisan infrastructure law, which included 1.5 billion for the brownfields program and was a big boost to the program. And while we might not authorize that level of funding this year, we must ensure we do not slow the momentum.
▶ 1:46:54Brownfield sites are getting harder to remediate and clean up, so authorization levels need to reflect that reality. And that's why my draft bill ensures funding increases for the program over the next five years. I wanted to go to mayor thompson and Mr. wells, from your perspective, how important is it for congress to reauthorize brownfields program with robust funding, especially for the planning of important projects that are in the pipeline? Um, I have one more question.
▶ 1:47:21So I'm maybe a minute or so on each of these, if you will. Mr. wells. >> I can answer that simply. I think any increase in the funding, uh, would be helpful to the program and would would foster even more good work. >> what about the, um, the fact that, as I mentioned, that, uh, that, uh, it's getting harder to remediate these sites and clean them up, is that a factor, too, in terms of the authorization?
▶ 1:47:51>> I think that's arguably the factor that would support an increase in funding. >> all right. And, uh, mayor thompson. >> I agree completely with that. When the infrastructure investment and jobs act was passed in that 1.5 billion was infused into the system, it made all the difference in the world.
▶ 1:48:13It was so important to the recipients of brownfield grants to have that those funds available and to reauthorize something on a similar basis for another 5 or 6 years would be significant and very important. >> I appreciate that. I want to ask you one more question, but I did want to say, you know, we know the state budgets are very strained. You know, right now constrained.
▶ 1:48:36Is that the word um, and, um, you know, I sometimes I hear people say, um, well, you know, the states are on their own, we don't need to give grants out, blah, blah, blah. But the reality is that they just don't have much money. Right. And so I think part of the reason why we need to have robust funding is that, um, they're not going to be able to do this on their own as well.
▶ 1:48:58But my question, the question I wanted to ask you, though, was, um, uh, you, uh, the republican discussion drifts would open the constrained amounts of funding to private companies and prioritize the interests of these industries over local communities. In my opinion, that's my concern. So, mayor, it sounds like you're dealing with a situation in davis that might be relevant to this. Are you concerned with the republican draft giving private companies access to brownfield grants?
▶ 1:49:28Is this how you think the program should work, or just comment on that, if you will, from your perspective? Practically? >> thank you for the question. I think right now the program in its current construct works very well. There's limited resources available, so the program is oversubscribed.
▶ 1:49:46If we open it up to the private sector, then I think that makes it more difficult for local governments and municipalities and non-profits to be able to seek the scarce dollars that are in the program. So we really don't want to see it expanded to include other entities that would compete for those limited funds. >> all right. And, um, you know, I guess, as you know, we have my bill, we have republican bills.
▶ 1:50:16But what I really want, I'm concerned about these incentives for the private sector, as you say. And I think I guess I'm saying to my republican colleagues here today that if we focus on the core purpose of the program, which was, you know, funding that went to states or localities, I think we can get a strong re-authorization bill across the finish line in time.
▶ 1:50:41I'm concerned that if if the republicans insist on, um, you know, opening it up to private companies, it's going to make it very difficult for us to come to an agreement. Come to a consensus. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you, miss. Thank you, madam chair. >> now, recognize the gentleman from colorado, Mr. evans, for five minutes. >> well thank you, chair. Ranking member for holding this hearing. Thank you, of course, to all of the witnesses for coming today.
▶ 1:51:08Um, as we talk about potential legislation to unleash america's brownfield sites, I strongly believe that bipartisan permitting reform is within our reach. This congress, I've supported it across a wide range of different avenues. This, um, this congress, uh, in this committee, we have the fire act, uh, voted in support of the speed act, partnering with some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to make sure that we can actually build and produce things again in the united states.
▶ 1:51:36And I'm so pleased to see some of these permitting reform ideas included in the brownfields inventory and permitting efficiency act that will prioritize projects that significantly support american manufacturing, position us to be able to win the ai race and reduce our emissions. And this can all be done without compromising our environmental stewardship or the public's ability to be involved and give feedback on some of these projects. Um, and reuses for brownfield sites. So first question to Mr. thompson.
▶ 1:52:04Um, mayor thompson, would you be able to share just how some of these measures that we're discussing today would encourage siting projects in areas that will minimize environmental impact and maximize economic, uh, benefit? Places like brownfield sites. >> thank you. I think as far as the, uh, you know, the inventory of brownfield sites are out there, and the program helps fund organizations that are ready to tackle those sites.
▶ 1:52:36That doesn't mean that entities outside of what's right now, within the sphere of the possible couldn't re, uh, redevelop those brownfield sites without taking funds from the brownfields program. That's the issue that we have. It's kind of the haves and the have nots. When you're talking about building a data center complex of two, three, $4 billion, that's significant money.
▶ 1:53:04But as far as when you're competing with entities that are down in the millions of dollars level, there's no comparison for us. It's it's all or nothing. We can't do it without the brownfield program, but a data center complex, a power plant, those entities, they can build those with the existing resources that they themselves already have. So we really. >> don't that that makes perfect sense. Limited resources.
▶ 1:53:34How do we make sure that this is available to a wide range of folks in the community to be able to serve that community's interests and also be able to responsibly use those sites? I've worked for municipal government for ten years. I got to be the guy that got assigned to go read all of the land development code. I was a cop, um, but I had to go read all the land development code and figure out how we could do some of the urban renewal and revitalize some of these areas. And that's critically important to me and my district.
▶ 1:54:01I represent north denver suburbs and the northern colorado area, um, with a lot of traditional industrial hubs along I-25. We've got a lot of brownfield sites, um, scattered through the region. Um, and so my next question will be to Mr. pouncey. Just want to hear your thoughts as we talk about making these programs more efficient, more accessible so that more people is, um, as the mayor was talking about, more people can access these.
▶ 1:54:22Would being able to incorporate previous environmental assessments or reviews or other information gathered into the current permitting process for redevelopments? Would that help to make these funds and this program more accessible to medium and smaller sized users? >> yeah. >> congressman evans, let me try to respond. Uh, because I think there are 2 or 3 questions within there.
▶ 1:54:47One, there's no doubt that anything that can be done to expedite the review of permitting, whether that is local permitting, whether that is state permitting on the environmental side, whether that is federal permitting on the nepa side, there's no doubt that that has a tremendous impact upon the ability to successfully do these projects, do these projects. That's without question.
▶ 1:55:13And the biggest enemy of these projects is, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes we get to know because no one ever says yes. And I've seen that time and time and time again, the the one comment I would make that that is contrary to some of the other testimony here is, is I look at smaller towns and I look at whether a developer is willing to invest in redevelopment in these smaller areas, these less populated
▶ 1:55:44Areas. The due diligence cost for me to do a smaller development on a brownfield in smaller town are often prohibitive. I'm spending 5 or 10 times as much money on due diligence as I would spend. If it's a if it's a greenfield site and at the end of the day, we should measure all of this by all we getting more cleanups accomplished.
▶ 1:56:08And so I think that's that's one instance which I could see funds being available to the private side, which then gives them the ability to conduct the due diligence associated with a development in a smaller town where I could see that has some benefits. >> thank you so much. We're out of time. Yield back. >> now recognize the gentleman from new jersey, Mr. menendez, for five minutes. >> thank you. Chairman. The epa's brownfields program drives economic development while protecting families from toxic contamination.
▶ 1:56:36A great example of this in my district is groundwork elizabeth, which will use $500,000 in brownfields funding to train the next generation of our environmental workforce across new jersey. These investments have transformed contaminated properties into parks and other projects that benefit our communities.
▶ 1:56:54Unfortunately, the republican brownfields reauthorization bills would undermine this important work by allowing polluting industries, including fossil fuel power plants and big tech data centers to access these limited federal funds. I believe that this committee has work to do to support artificial intelligence and invest in our nation's future, but growth requires sensible guardrails.
▶ 1:57:16Epa's brownfields program exists to support community revitalization, not to further subsidize the fossil fuel industry or provide handouts to ai data centers that are driving up utility bills for our constituents. These republican proposals prioritize energy generation facilities that could burn coal, oil, and gas for brownfields funding while completely removing the current criteria for clean energy projects.
▶ 1:57:42Mayor thompson, would you agree that prioritizing these energy and pollution intensive facilities could have negative effects on the communities living near brownfield sites? >> I agree completely. Within the town of davis, we have a proposed power plant that's going to burn natural gas and diesel fuel, and that's going to power a data center complex.
▶ 1:58:05And in the haste of trying to, uh, permit that facility, uh, steps were excluded from the process to ensure safety of the people that live in close proximity to that plant. We had a study done by harvard and mit to look at the effects of the dispersion modeling, and it came back and it said, 1 or 2 people might die every year. 5 or 6 people would develop asthma that didn't have it previously.
▶ 1:58:33And the cost of medical, uh, situations would be anywhere from 19 to $35 million a year. So we really need some protection. We can't just in haste, say we need to do all these things and forget about the human costs. That could be a trade off. >> I. >> appreciate you sharing that, because these sites would contribute. >> to the very pollution that brownfields funds are intended to remediate.
▶ 1:58:58In addition to propping up fossil fuels, these republican bills would also allow data centers to access brownfields funding. But our friends and neighbors have legitimate concerns about data centers impacts on our air quality and drinking water. In mississippi, 27 gas turbines help power elon musk's ai data center, worsening air quality in the surrounding community. And we're also seeing reports that raise alarms about data centers overall impacts on our water supply.
▶ 1:59:24Mayor thompson, in your experience, would you agree that building more data centers with brownfields funds could worsen environmental burdens on our communities, including increasing air pollution and impacting our water supply? Just yes or no, if you don't mind. >> yes, I think it would be detrimental.
▶ 1:59:41>> I appreciate that to help our communities fully understand the environmental impacts of data centers, I introduced the data center transparency act, which would bring greater transparency to the water and energy consumption of data centers, as well as the air pollution they emit. We need to ensure these facilities do not harm the health of the people that we represent. We've also seen significant concerns about the quality of life issues that data centers create. For example, mississippi residents describe the noise from the turbines I described earlier as, quote, excruciating.
▶ 2:00:10Mayor thompson, would you agree that building more data centers with brownfields funds could worsen noise pollution and other quality of life concerns and surrounding communities? Just yes or no? >> yes. I think it would be again disadvantage to the communities. >> I appreciate it because we heard earlier from Mr. robinson about some of the benefits, but there's also an immense number of harm that could be caused. We should not use funds to make quality of life worse, or to make our energy dirtier or utility bills more expensive.
▶ 2:00:41Republicans are proposing bills to incentivize the development of data centers that drive the energy affordability issue. Without a real plan to lower energy costs, I'm concerned that directing millions of dollars in federal funds to data centers could make the energy affordability issue worse. When all we have is a handshake deal between president trump and big tech, I can't support a bill that gives more handouts to the very companies driving up energy prices for working families. Companies building data centers can and should provide their own renewable energy and use their own financial resources instead of public funds.
▶ 2:01:09My legislation, the price act, would require data centers to generate the electricity they consume and do so with 100% renewable energy by 2040. So I'm disappointed that these proposals would deliver more expensive energy, increased pollution and reduced investment in our communities. I urge my colleagues to return to the table to negotiate a reauthorization that puts our communities first, I yield back. >> I now recognize the gentlelady from north dakota, miss fedorcsak, for five minutes.
▶ 2:01:38>> thank you, madam chair, and thanks to the committee leaders for organizing this great, um, uh, hearing today. Thank you all for sharing your expertise as well. Um, mayor, I'm intrigued by you. I come from a state of north dakota, and we have lots of small communities of 800 families, much like what you described as your community. So I first, I want to know a little bit more about the brownfield site in your community. What what created it?
▶ 2:02:09>> it was created by funds that came from the epa through the state of west virginia. >> and what was there originally? >> it was originally a gas station that, uh, had polluted the soil around it, and it needed to be mitigated. And once that site was, uh, was cleaned up, it was repurposed. And now it's serving as a brewery. And, uh, we get a lot of benefit from that.
▶ 2:02:33So we're very happy with the jobs that's created, the revenue that it's producing for the area, and the fact that we took a site or a facility that was unusable and untenable and made it something productive. >> and do you that that's a great story. Do you have a data center that's being proposed in your community as well? On a brownfield site? >> we do. It's a brownfield site.
▶ 2:02:59They're proposing to build the gas power plant that I talked about earlier, and then that would power not the grid, but the data center complex that would be built around it. And it's not that we're against data centers per se. What we're against is having the data centers compete for the brownfield funding. That's so limited because, again, the order of magnitude is so different between the two entities.
▶ 2:03:25>> do you have a permitting process for your data centers that address the noise and the, um, traffic and all the issues that, uh, any large industrial development would have on your community. >> in west virginia? The situation's a little bit different. There was a legislation passed by the state that basically, uh, omits local voice in the process at all.
▶ 2:03:47So everything is done at the capital and with the developer and the counties and the municipalities have no say whatsoever, and no ordinance, regulations or anything else would apply to the permitting of that facility. >> okay. All right. And I'm sure, I'm sure that you participate in the process. When that law was was passed. >> we did unsuccessfully. >> yeah. Okay. Um, what would you think? Uh, what would you define? You raised concerns about community involvement.
▶ 2:04:18What would you define as sufficient engagement in this process? >> well, I think it always helps to have dialog. I think all the players need to to come to the table. And I've often said that in our situation, if the the state, the developer and the local community could come together and form a triad where there is that dialog, then, uh, better solutions can often be found. Uh, we have a number of brownfield sites in the area.
▶ 2:04:46And what I've tried to explain to people is that if you just move to 12 miles down the road, it would be a more palatable site in terms of the location for that facility. But I still would say that it should not be competing for brownfield dollars. >> and so I'm sure that you're also, as a mayor, worried about jobs and opportunities for future residents in your community, which this new industry would also offer. Correct.
▶ 2:05:14>> it's a it's a delicate balance. It's, uh, looking at jobs, it's looking at revenue. It's also looking at lives and the well-being of the people, of the community. And that's why, again, fundamentally, we're not against data centers. We're not against ai, we're not against quantum computing and all those kinds of things that go with it from a national security perspective, I get it.
▶ 2:05:36We need to disperse those facilities around the country, but we need to make sure that we put them in an appropriate location so that it doesn't have secondary effects that are detrimental to people or to other factors very supportive of jobs and revenue. >> yep. And that's, uh, that's where I think we all have to step back a little bit. I think there's an awful lot of demonizing that's going on everywhere in our country right now as it relates to data centers and the development.
▶ 2:06:04These facilities are manufacturing intelligence for us for the betterment of human beings. We need to do this in our country. And we it isn't a choice of one or the other. We can do both. We can develop this industry. We can protect local communities, and we can protect our national security and create more opportunities for the future.
▶ 2:06:26But when we get stuck in these kind of partizan conversations where it's one or the other or false choices, that's where people feel trapped and we get stuck. So we just have to be open and be able to have good conversations and input and deal with facts, not scare tactics. So thank you for being here. I appreciate all of your input. I yield back. >> gentlelady yields. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from california, Mr. ruiz, for five minutes for his questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:06:54One year ago we met to discuss why the brownfields program remains one of the most effective and cost efficient tools for economic revitalization, especially in communities where contamination, disinvestment and affordability pressures compound each other every day. Uh, brownfield sites, abandoned industrial facilities, gas stations, dry cleaners, landfills are not just environmental hazards, they are economic wounds.
▶ 2:07:20When left untreated, they depress property values, threaten public health, and blocked the housing and jobs working families need. And as a doctor, I know you do not heal wounds by ignoring them. In districts like mine across the imperial, coachella and san jacinto valleys, this is a daily reality.
▶ 2:07:42The environmental protection agency brownfield programs offers a proven bipartisan solution creating jobs, unlocking private investment, easing housing pressures and restoring community dignity. When contaminated land sits idle, communities lose housing, small businesses and tax revenues. Families pay the price through higher rents and fewer opportunities. Brownsville remediation helps break that cycle, and we have already seen that progress in my district. This is the case in point.
▶ 2:08:10Um, in 2019, the city of brawley facilitated the redevelopment of the property, a long vacated contaminated site that had been, uh, a public burden through brownsville remediation, that property was transformed into a thriving local car repair business, creating good paying jobs and renewed economic activity in the community that had waited far too long.
▶ 2:08:36That is not an outlier, that that is what this program was built to do. When we give it the resources it needs. So, Mr. wells, from your experience, uh, what keeps small, rural and low income communities from participating in the brownsville program and what changes or funding would make the biggest difference in making sure these communities benefit from the program? >> well, as I said earlier, I think the cost share waiver is a good idea.
▶ 2:09:06Um, I think that, uh, limited funds is always a hurdle for small communities. That's why I think that, uh, some sort of, uh, all of the above approach makes sense. I don't think that that, um, well, I tend to agree that that private sector entities competing with limited funds can be an issue.
▶ 2:09:27I think that excluding private, uh, private parties from the programs or from benefiting from the program would be as big a mistake. I think that, um, that it's that I'm a, I'm a big believer in public private partnerships. I think when we're talking about economic development through the redevelopment of brownfields, you can't have economic development without the private sector.
▶ 2:09:52>> so give me what would a private public partnership look like, in your opinion, to help these lower income communities who all oftentimes face difficulty recruiting private industry? >> sure. Well, and I think that's where a program like the brownfield program, uh, is helpful for those for those communities and, and, and removing hurdles from their access to the program, uh, is is important. >> okay. Thank you.
▶ 2:10:17So brownfields redevelopment is a powerful, often overlooked sustainability tool. Reusing existing land protects open space, reduces infrastructure costs and shortens commutes that worsen air pollution, especially in the imperial and coachella valleys where, uh, where I live and, uh, and represent, uh, Mr. thompson, uh, your community is fighting a power plant and data center development that threatens to increase air pollution. Can you talk about how certain choices on brownfields could actually harm more than help the community surrounding the site?
▶ 2:10:51>> sure. I think, you know, I talked about the, uh, the detrimental effects of the toxic emissions being in close proximity to where the town of davis is. And because of the particle matter 2.5 microns or less, it's so pervasive. And because of prevailing winds and temperature inversions, we live in an area that threatens human health.
▶ 2:11:14And so that's why we're a proponent of having the site move somewhere else where it can function safely and not harm individuals. >> and you're not against the site. You're just wanted to make sure that that it's moved somewhere else to to protect the air quality of the people who breathe, uh, in proximity to the site. >> that is correct. >> okay. Okay. So thank you.
▶ 2:11:38The brownfield program helps clean up contamination, create jobs, lower costs for families, and give communities a path forward instead of keeping them stuck in the past. Uh, that is why we must not corrupt this program. We must protect and fully fund it. So I yield back. >> the gentleman yields back.
▶ 2:12:05The chair now recognizes the gentleman from kentucky, the chairman of the full committee, Mr. guthrie, for five minutes for his questions. >> thank you. Appreciate it very much. Uh, so, uh, in kentucky, we have an idol aluminum smelting facility that was recently sold to a company looking to place data center on the property. The site transition must be, uh, done properly, of course, but I think this is the type of redevelopment brownfield sites we should be encouraging. Rather than allowing these sites to remain idle. As Mr. pouncey said about alabama has been there for 40 years.
▶ 2:12:35Empty instead of idle. We should, uh, we should reallocate. We should have relocation of innovative new industries. And so this is an area that had a smelter, smelter that had to shut down. It had transmission lines, has 450mw of power that has been dedicated, uh, to the smelter from the, from the user. And now we have a data center that wants to come to town. The community has a 3% utility tax already in place, not because of the data center.
▶ 2:13:02And they're probably going to have the wealthiest school system in kentucky once this data center starts buying power. So there's absolutely proper ways to do this. So, Mr. robinson, how do companies such as aligned locate ideal sites for potential data centers? And what are some of the challenges with identifying an appropriate location? >> uh. There's a lot. >> we thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 2:13:30Um, there are a lot of challenges once you locate the site. As far as locating the sites, we've got a team that goes looks for proper, uh, power. It's really the power that drives it. The necessary infrastructure. In my prepared remarks, I also mentioned that those industrial sites for past industrial use are ideal for data center development. It has the infrastructure, the favorable industrial zoning, the, uh, the power lines, um, and also usually the land area for data center development.
▶ 2:14:01The data centers that aligned has developed. It was a former semiconductor power plant, uh, semiconductor fabrication. And we've also worked at a coal fired power plant. Uh, and we've also worked at and we are currently redeveloping an old ball bearing manufacturing facility that sat dormant for over a decade. It had been in operations for 70 years. And it was a hulking mass that was that was abandoned that we've redeveloped. Um, we have not taken advantage of these grant programs, by the way.
▶ 2:14:29Um, but certainly an advocate for public private partnership. >> you know, it makes sense. This one really did, because I already had the transmission and and it was an industrial site. I have areas in my area that that people are concerned because it's greenfield, it's farmland. It's near a there's one particular county that had put up opposition to a data center coming in, and it just seems that it's a win win. We have places like Mr. pouncey described what town in east.
▶ 2:14:57I was actually born in north alabama, town in east alabama. Where are you from? I was going. >> to mill village, which is actually right outside of opelika. >> okay, near auburn. Yeah. So are you auburn fan, I guess. >> war eagle. >> okay. Uh, so I gotta beat navy and a war eagle. That's kind of fun. So. So, I mean, it's important where we choose to do this, and it's important because it does can transform communities and does transform communities.
▶ 2:15:22And but if we don't do it, I had a reporter asked me some, maybe somebody in town's proposing a complete ban on data centers. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but if we don't do them, then china's going to do them. China or china's going to do them anyway. And gary palmer, our good chairman here says I'm not supposed to use your first name. Sorry, Mr. chair, is, uh, that whoever controls this is not going to be one of the world's superpowers. Will be the world superpower. So this is vitally important. We get it right and put them in the right place.
▶ 2:15:53That's what we just want to do. And I know, Mr. thompson, mayor, you have a pristine area. And so you don't want you want that you want to preserve your pristine area. But not every area is situated like that. So, Mr. in your written testimony, you discussed how former industrial sites have existing energy and transportation infrastructure to make them attractive, to expand upon the difficulties in redeveloping sites that lack infrastructure, and how difficult it can be to get electric and other infrastructure installed.
▶ 2:16:22>> it's, uh, it's a huge consideration, particularly with those types of uses, like you're referring to data center uses, which require that level of infrastructure investment. Number one is the cost of the community. When you start looking at expanding infrastructure. Two, there's a huge time component in terms of the delay that is caused, uh, when you're when you're looking at infrastructure that must be brought from several miles away, uh, whether that's water, whether that's power. Most often with the data centers, it's power.
▶ 2:16:52Uh, the and and third, and I want to come back to the measuring stick should always be what accelerates and what ensures that the maximum number of sites are actually cleaned up under brownfield.
▶ 2:17:09And if you look at sites that already have that infrastructure in place, that provides a huge immediate incentive that supports redevelopment of those sites and their corresponding cleanup of those sites. Uh, and in some instances, also the type of development that is, which provides a lot of cover, also reduces overall exposure to human health. Uh, which, uh, which may thompson has expressed legitimate concerns regarding.
▶ 2:17:37So I think all of those factors come into this. >> I'm sorry. The man who has the gavel and the time clock played for alabama. So I bet since you said war eagle, I better yield back my. And I'm not sure this is serious business and and we need to get it done. Thanks. Thanks, Mr. chair. >> the gentleman yields the chair now recognizes the gentleman from california, Mr. peters, for five minutes for his questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I also, uh, just because they love it in kentucky, I'll add go devils to your list. Um. Um, thanks.
▶ 2:18:06Thanks to all the the members for being here. I had to step out for something else, but I did hear all of your testimony. Um, and I want to thank, um, chairman palmer for holding this hearing and chair pallone for putting his own proposals forward. Uh, and I do hope that we can work together in a bipartisan way to make this program work. I mean, we've seen it for a while. The idea is, um, to to redevelop, um, compromised areas. We know they're compromised. They're brownfields are not greenfields.
▶ 2:18:33Um, and I think we need we need to work however we can to make this program better. In particular, it interests me around nepa. I've been doing a lot of work on trying to modernize nepa. Um, the number of projects that we will have, uh, is in the tens of thousands.
▶ 2:18:50And it seems to me that brownfields is a candidate for, um, recognizing that these are compromised sites and that these are places where we should be developing, um, you know, a lot of these things, many of them are already connected as as I think you said Mr. pouncey, to infrastructure. Water. Yes. And natural for redevelopment. And we should be encouraging that. And if this if brownfields are brownfields program is not helping that in the way it should, we should improve it. And um, I like I know Mr.
▶ 2:19:19Griffith talked about the idea of pre-clearance. I think in nepa. That makes a lot of sense for me now. Um, it doesn't change the clean water act and the clean air act. We have those bills there to protect us in terms of compliance. But for nepa is a siting bill, and we know we want to put stuff in these brownfields that that can match. And of course, one of those things is data centers. Um, I do want to also acknowledge and thank the majority in this in their draft for not trying to pick false battles between kinds of energy. They want to advance all kinds of energy.
▶ 2:19:49I think that makes sense. It's consistent with what the market's demanding. But I do want to ask Mr. robinson about data centers. Um, are you you're looking for, I assume, a full suite of options to build power generation, inclusive of transmission, clean energy, fossil fuels. Is that something kind of what you're what's your view on how, um, brownfields can mesh with, um, generation of power and data centers? How do you think that works? >> absolutely. Um, to date, we have not done any on site power generation for all of our sites.
▶ 2:20:20It's been primarily fed by the utility. Um, but we do have to look at on site behind the meter generation, just given the constraints right now, uh, with the generation side, the transmission side, I think it's and as you aptly note, I think it's got to be all the above. >> right? I would just also say I listen to google's presentation on this, which they have very sophisticated approach. They want to be connected to the grid. They want to make sure that because they want that reliability.
▶ 2:20:44Uh, but what they're offering communities, um, nearby is, uh, that their investment will not cost them money because they'll cover the cost, but also their investment can also improve reliability of the grid in general. So you bring that kind of investment to a community, maybe on a brownfield, you're also in a position to help help the community. >> I think that's true across the board, actually. Um, there's a misconception that data centers are not paying their fair share.
▶ 2:21:14We do pay our fair share. Um, when a data center is interested in locating in a particular place, the local utility has to do a load study. That load study is to make sure that all the infrastructure is in place to support the projected load. If there are any infrastructure improvements that have to be made, the data center provider is actually paying them. So the utility will give us a bill, will be a payment, which is a contribution in need of construction. There'll be other forms of security to protect the ratepayer.
▶ 2:21:43And data centers do pay their their fair share. >> right? I think except for the issue about whether data centers pay their fair share, which is something we should make sure that they do. It's a fairly benign use, particularly on a brownfield. I mean, it's the kind of thing that is a natural place for redevelopment. >> definitely.
▶ 2:22:00>> um, I also would just say, you know, I'm, I believe, um, as someone who advocates for climate action but also understands the demand we have coming for energy from data centers and, uh, manufacturing onshoring and electrification. I really want to build a site permit and build things much faster. I think if we're going to compete as a country, we're we're choosing between a future of higher energy costs and astronomically higher energy costs.
▶ 2:22:29And if we want to stay with away from astronomically higher costs, we have to change these laws and modernize them. I would go further in many ways than these drafts do on, uh, on permit reform. Um, and thinking about streamlining, um, under nepa, the endangered species act, national historic preservation act, um, the reauthorization of the program presents an opportunity for this committee to make america more competitive. Um, to help keep costs down and to make real reforms to our federal permitting process.
▶ 2:22:59So I'm looking forward to working on that with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle. I hope we're successful. Thanks again to the people, for the witnesses for coming out and to the chairman. I yield back. >> chairman yields. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from georgia, Mr. carter, for five minutes. Thank you. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. And, uh, thank you for being here, all of you. This is extremely important. And, you know, we've got a lot of brownfields in my district, a lot of brownfields in the state of georgia.
▶ 2:23:26In fact, there in georgia, there are over 400 brownfield sites that have been cleaned up since 2003. And I think that's good. This is what we need to be doing. Do think it's so lengthy and I, I get frustrated the amount of time it takes. I understand it. Uh, but at the same time it's very frustrating. But we've got some great examples in georgia of where we've had some success. One of those is in my district.
▶ 2:23:49It's the seaport industrial terminal complex, the largest cleanup, um, by area since the inception of the georgia brownfields program. So that's again a great example. Delaney industries is the one who has done that. It's a good program. We all understand that the program supports the assessment and the cleanup and the safe reuse of these properties in the hope that we can reinvest.
▶ 2:24:14And we've got some in my home county of glenn county that I live in now that, um, we're hoping will will develop and, and really spur our economy down there. And it should because the locations are really good. Um, Mr. robinson, I want to ask you, and we've talked about data centers. I suspect you've gotten numerous questions during this hearing about data centers and how we can use brownfields to, um, as development site for data centers.
▶ 2:24:43Have you seen any issues related to the development due to our current permitting process? >> um, much of the permitting process is with regard to power generation. Uh, most of the permitting that we deal with on the environmental side is at the state, uh, local level. Um, one of our sites is a us epa, uh, reviewed site. And, uh, all of these sites have challenges for sure. >> great.
▶ 2:25:12Well, I think it's important to note, because there's a lot of fear from from constituents about the, the cost of electricity and that being them having to absorb that and having to foot the bill for that. I'm very proud of the public service commission in georgia who have said that that's not going to happen, that the data centers are going to have to pay for the electricity and that it's not going to pass be passed on to consumers. So I think we're addressing that. In fact, the georgia state legislature is in session right now.
▶ 2:25:40There are a number of bills addressing that as well. So, Mr. wells, um, you know, all about, um, about brownfields and about the opportunities to clean up contaminated sites in rural america. And this is very important. I represent a lot of rural area with the legislation we're discussing today, help accelerate the remediation of brownfield sites across our country. >> I think it would, yes. >> the brownfields revitalization for a better tomorrow act.
▶ 2:26:09It creates, as I understand, a pilot program for rural communities. And under this, the epa would award a grant to an eligible organization to provide technical assistance for applying for brownfields grants. Mr. wells, do you feel that the legislation we are discussing today could help spur an economic revitalization in rural america? >> yes, sir. I think it could. >> what sort of opportunities exist in these communities?
▶ 2:26:37>> well, in our experience, it's it's well, it's the same thing we've been talking about all day when, um, whether it's a small community, a large community, being able to take a property that is, um, that's blighted, that is contaminated and put it back into productive use, that's the core tenant of the program. And, and, and and it's vital for all community, any community that has that type of site. >> all right. Let me let me ask you something.
▶ 2:27:07And and this is really for anybody on the panel. Is there anything we can do to speed up the process, or is this just a necessary part of the program? Because we've had some brownfields that have just been there for years and years and decades. Mr. robinson, our Mr. wells. Go ahead. >> well, my microphone is still on. I'll. >> yeah. Go ahead.
▶ 2:27:27>> uh, I will say that, you know, one thing that I have heard is, is that, um, limiting the number of grants that can be provided to a specific site can limit the ability to ultimately get that site completely remediated. Uh, the current program has some limitations in that respect that that might could be revisited. >> okay. Anybody else any suggestions here? >> I would say more funding allows for more sites to be addressed. >> okay.
▶ 2:27:57More sites to be addressed. But I'm talking about speeding up the process of the existing ones. >> that I couldn't really comment on. >> okay. >> congressman, I would suggest in that instance that, uh, two items could be considered.
▶ 2:28:14One is to the extent and we mentioned this earlier, the extent that we can get this down to the state programs and, uh, you know, in involved in drafting georgia's brownfield legislation so we can get it down to the state programs. Those are extremely effective. And one of the key components to me of funding would be that we're funding these state programs. So they are up and running and able. Administrator, uh, this, uh, this work.
▶ 2:28:43>> I'm getting the hook from the alabama grad. So I'm being a georgia boy. I've got I've got to yield back, so I yield. >> the gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from ohio, Mr. landsman, for five minutes for his questions. >> uh, thank you, Mr. chairman, and for all of you being here and for the committee holding this hearing on, uh, the brownfields program. Um, Mr.
▶ 2:29:11Wells, you had talked about brownfields as it relates to the core mission of taking blighted and contaminated spaces, remediating those spaces, and then turning them back into something that the public can use. Um, can you give me a couple examples? Just. Or folks watching at home? >> um. >> well, we've had projects in, in mississippi, for instance, where, uh, previous, previously contaminated sites were could be turned into green space.
▶ 2:29:41>> green space. >> yes, sir. >> yep. And I guess this is for you, Mr. wells and Mr. thompson. Although anyone can answer. Uh, a lot of these spots have were, you know, um, former gas stations or other places where something leaked into the soil. Right. And the remediation was required in order to put it back into use. Have you ever heard in.
▶ 2:30:11I think there's I've seen here there's 42,000 properties that have been remediated since this project started. Does that sound right? Okay. That's a ton of projects. Um, do you think any of them turn back into gas stations? Mr. wells, have you ever heard of any of us taking a remediating a site and then turning it back into a gas station? >> I don't know. >> Mr. thompson. >> I haven't. What I've really run into is they've turned into retail and office space. >> yeah.
▶ 2:30:39Retail, office, workforce housing. Um, the issue with the the data centers, Mr. robinson, is that they are going to require additional remediation. When you all leave, you're going to have to remediate the soil in the water. True. >> I don't believe that's true. I don't know. >> you aren't going to you don't think the data centers are going to remediate water and soil after they leave? >> I do not believe so.
▶ 2:31:06We we discharge the water into typically the municipal water system. Our water use is dramatically less than the former industrial use. We often see a 90 plus percent reduction in water usage. We use a closed loop system. So our water usage is is minimal. It's down to convenience for restrooms and common area kitchen.
▶ 2:31:32>> but in order to use in order to, uh, operate the data center, you've got to use what we would call forever chemicals. And some of these chemicals are absolutely going to leak into the soil. And so then the question is, do you do you all intend to remediate the soil? >> there's nothing leaking into the soil from our data centers. >> from any data center in the united states. >> I can't speak to others. I can speak to align's designs. >> fair enough. No, that's fair.
▶ 2:32:01My worry and I and I agree with you that there is a race to win. I, I think the race, though, is not how many data centers you build or the next algorithm it is which country can figure out how to harness ai for good and protect its citizens and the environment from the harm. That's the race.
▶ 2:32:17And I worry that we're going to take a program where we're, you know, remediating sites, uh, to get contamination out of the water and soil and having, you know, projects that will just, you know, re, you know, contaminate, uh, the, the water and the soil. And I appreciate that you're saying that's not the case for your your crew. Um, why the need to open this up to private companies?
▶ 2:32:46You guys have been fine, right? I mean, you've you've had no issues. >> we have been, uh, I think we all recognize public private partnerships. >> oh, I do too. I just think clearly you're having. There's no real issue. So I'm wondering why that change, but I, I guess the the other question has to do with the, the database that 5% of the, the, the, the grant program is going to go to a database. You've also been okay, Mr. evans, like finding sites, right? I mean, you know, you don't need a database, right? >> to date.
▶ 2:33:15We've not needed that. But there could be value if the committee thinks so. >> yeah. Fair enough, Mr. thompson. I mean, the 5%, that's a lot of money that goes to something other than remediating and bringing these sites back online. Right? >> it is. You're correct. >> and just in the 20s that you have left, what what where could the money go? I mean, what are the projects that were. >> well, it takes, uh, dilapidated properties. It takes contaminated properties and it turns them into vital productive entities.
▶ 2:33:44And after the brownfield program helps it come back up to back to life. Yeah, it makes a difference for our communities. >> I would love to see all of the dollars go to those things that are going to, uh, move these projects along, but also to ensure that we're getting projects that, uh, the community really, really wants. So, uh, with that, I yield back. And I apologize for going over.
▶ 2:34:12>> gentleman yields chair now recognizes the gentlelady from iowa, doctor miller-meeks, for five minutes for her questions. >> uh, thank you, chairman palmer. And thank our witnesses for appearing here today in iowa. We understand both the promise and the challenge of brownfields redevelopment. I represent a district with a strong manufacturing base, facilities that build, process and produce the goods that keep our economy moving. And I also represent deeply rural communities where small towns are working hard to stay competitive and grow.
▶ 2:34:40Across my district, there are former manufacturing sites, rail corridors, grain facilities and riverfront properties that once powered local economies but now sit underutilized because of real or perceived contamination concerns. These sites are often located near existing infrastructure such as rail roads, transmission lines, and a skilled workforce, which makes them strong candidates for redevelopment.
▶ 2:35:04If we get the policy right, the epa's brownfields program under cercla has been an important tool. But for many rural communities in iowa, accessing that tool is not easy. Small towns do not have full time grant writers or environmental staff. They rely heavily on partnerships with counties and the state to move projects forward.
▶ 2:35:24The bills that we're looking at present, opportunities to increase grant caps, provide cost share flexibility, strengthen state response programs, improve permitting efficiency and create new financing tools. And if structured correctly, these reforms can help rural and manufacturing heavy districts like mine attract new investment, support domestic supply chains, and create good paying jobs. Mr.
▶ 2:35:47Ponzi, you've testified that high upfront cleanup costs and cercla liability uncertainty hinder private developers from redeveloping brownfield. How would increase grant maximums, expanded eligible entities and cost share waivers in the proposed legislation reduce these barriers for rural and industrial communities. >> uh. >> I would suggest a couple of items in that regard.
▶ 2:36:16One is that I do think having some allocation of resources specific to the rural area is important because I share your concern and see it often where there just isn't the expertise and the the municipalities can't afford it. The expertise for this grant writing. So some mechanism that addresses that, I do think that is important.
▶ 2:36:43>> and in your written testimony, you recommended continuing efforts to transition sites off of the national priorities list and into state brownfield programs. Do you think these former mpl sites would be ideal locations for nationally significant infrastructure facilities, such as critical mineral processing? >> uh, actually I do, and for a couple of reasons.
▶ 2:37:03One, very often these sites are, uh, are large sites that where only a small portion of the site is impacted, yet they have this tremendous infrastructure that's in place that makes them suitable for that kind of use. And so by if I have a 200 acre site that has access to tremendous infrastructure and only 20 of it is impacted, why is the entire 200 acres on the npl and it keeps it from being put in state programs? >> thank you. And Mr.
▶ 2:37:30Wells, is there anything you'd like to add about the state role in the process for deleting sites from the national priorities list? >> well. >> I don't know that I have any comment specific to the national priorities list issue, but the supporting the state programs that then in turn support the local communities through the technical assistance and otherwise is critical part of the program. >> so improving that federal state coordination. >> yes, ma'am. >> and, Mr.
▶ 2:37:57Wells, you highlighted the success of mississippi's targeted brownfields assessment program in assessing 82 sites and unlocking private investment. Given the proposed rule, brownfields pilot program and cost share waivers for small or disadvantaged communities, how would this legislation improve access to technical assistance and capital for communities with limited grant writing or administrative capacity, particularly in areas facing de-population and industrial decline? >> I think the answer is in the question itself. Uh, the the.
▶ 2:38:30Hurdles to access is is key. Uh, I think the, uh, the issue, uh, in all candor, the issue with the pilot program for the for the loan portion of it, I think there are some issues there. I think that that we can work through. But I because I think that incentivizing private investment is also a key part of the future success of the program. >> Mr. chair, I yield back. >> gentlelady yields.
▶ 2:38:57The chair now recognizes gentlelady from florida, miss lee, for five minutes for her questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. As we are all considering the reauthorization of the epa brownfield programs, I appreciate the suggestions and the testimony from our witnesses today about how we might best provide federal support for the continuation of these programs.
▶ 2:39:23In my own community, I'm very committed to working with my constituents and with the epa and our state and local government partners to solve some significant brownfield issues. I've visited homes in my district adjacent to significantly contaminated areas, and have seen the damage that it causes to families and want to prioritize working with the epa to clean up these areas and make them safe and habitable.
▶ 2:39:51I thank the chairman for conducting this important hearing and giving us the opportunity to hear from all of you today as we consider these legislative proposals, I'd like to go back to your testimony. Um, Mr. pouncy, one thing that I want to be sure that we cover today is the notion that for federal dollars that are invested in these sites, um, that economic studies show a good return on those investments for the communities where the dollars are spent. That's one of the things that's in your written testimony.
▶ 2:40:19I'd love to hear more from you about that. And also, you mentioned accountability metrics, and that what we needed to be measuring as our metric was, where did we actually succeed in cleaning up? Uh, would you tell us more about those two things, the return on investment and how we should be capturing that metric?
▶ 2:40:39>> and I may address those in reverse order, if I may, uh, uh, sometimes I would offer that we get so distracted on, on other potential implications that we avoid the core mission of these environmental laws, and that is to clean up as many properties as we can as soon as we can.
▶ 2:41:03And, uh, that's why I think the brownfield approach is so critical, because it is bringing the private parties to the table that can accomplish that clean up quickly as part of redevelopment. As long as we're not creating too many barriers to that process. And so I think that, uh, as I think the key metric should always be in the key analysis, as we're looking at legislation, should always be if it's under the brownfield approach.
▶ 2:41:30What what process allows for the most sites to be cleaned up the quickest? I would suggest that should be the metric. And forgive me, I've forgotten the first question. >> it was about the return on investment you cited in your testimony. >> yes. Uh, I do think there has been, uh, significant return on investment.
▶ 2:41:51And I would argue, again, the biggest return on investment has been when these dollars have gone to support state brownfield programs that are doing the work on the ground. They're doing the most of the work. And I'm sure, uh, Mr. wells would would concur with that as well.
▶ 2:42:10We have tremendous state brownfield programs across the country that are working their tails off and just doing tremendous work allowing these sites to be cleaned up, allow these sites to be cleaned up quickly and being put back into use, uh, with, with certain incentives that are available in these programs. And I just think it's important for us to continue to recognize that investment in the return on that investment. >> and, Mr.
▶ 2:42:31Wells, I would like to return to your testimony, um, on that subject also, specifically, the discussion about reaching rural, small and disadvantaged communities and how important that is, I do believe I may be last, if not close to it. Is there anything you would like to add on those subjects that you have not had the opportunity to already tell us about today? >> uh, I don't believe so. Thank you. >> absolutely. Um, so, Mr.
▶ 2:43:00Pelosi, going back to you, you've mentioned the need to effectively collaborate with our state and local partners and where we can to actually sit down with the state, the cleanup of some of these sites. Tell me if you would, why you think that is more effective and what we can be doing better at congress to ensure that that is actually happening.
▶ 2:43:21>> the reason I think that is better, uh, lies in the if you take an analysis of the brownfields programs across the country and you see how many sites have been cleaned up under the state brownfield programs versus under enforcement, it's remarkable. I mentioned georgia earlier where in a little bit more than half the time, because since the superfund program was put in place, the brownfield program has cleaned up twice as many sites and is well on its way to cleaning up a lot more.
▶ 2:43:48That shows the effectiveness not just in georgia, but in mississippi and and other states, certainly around the southeast, alabama being one as well. So I think that's that that is so critical. The states also have the ability to give other types of financial incentives, such as property tax relief, to brownfield sites, where you can recover some of your cleanup costs from an increase in property taxes, which has also been a critical issue, and they're able to provide liability protection.
▶ 2:44:16So I think those are what make the the state component of this so fundamental. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield back. >> gentlelady yields chair. Now recognize the gentleman from texas, Mr. weber, for five minutes for his questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Uh, as he said, I'm from texas. How many of y'all have heard of the city of port arthur, texas?
▶ 2:44:38Some of you have heard they have pursued a grant under this program to address hazardous materials, including asbestos and lead paint, at the historic hotel sabine, which currently sits vacant. If successful, renovating this building would play a critical role in revitalizing downtown port arthur by adding office and retail space as well as student housing. So I want you to you all to discuss, and I'll take it in turn, each of you how this program generates a strong economic return on investment for communities like port arthur.
▶ 2:45:07But before I do, I want to give you some texas history. In 1901, have you ever heard of the spindletop? Well, in beaumont, texas. And he's shaking his head. You've heard it. They they went they were drilling. They went down 1020ft deep. The well blew out about 150 the air and an estimated 150,000 barrels a day. That was the spindletop event. Why is it important? Start of the texas oil boom.
▶ 2:45:31It led to the major expansion of major oil companies like texaco, gulf oil, and later influence on companies like exxon. It helped shift the us from coal to petroleum as a major energy source. Why do I tell you all that? It's extremely important. What's going on there? If you went to port arthur, texas today, you wouldn't recognize it. I mean, this is, you know, 1901, the math majors, 101 25 years ago. But just for the record, Mr. chairman, I wasn't alive back then. Okay.
▶ 2:45:57So what I want to know is when you think of a city of port arthur like that, that's had that extremely, extremely economic boom that they had for a while, and yet now they don't. How is it that you what can you do with the program that generates that for the city of port arthur and exclusively that sabine hotel, which had asbestos and all kinds of lead paint? And how does that program benefit someone like that? I'll start with you.
▶ 2:46:26>> well, I think it touches the question, touches on something that's been, uh, maybe lost in the shuffle today during the discussion today. And that is, um, one aspect of the program is that local decision making, you know, and what benefits the, the local community that that is impacted by that, uh, by that brownfield site and empowering those, uh, those communities to make decisions about what would be the best
▶ 2:46:57Sort of redevelopment from their perspective, data centers, what are whether it's data centers or whatever type of facility? Uh, we've talked a lot about that today, but hotels, uh, retail space, mixed use developments, all those those you look across the, the, the universe of brownfield projects across the country, and you're going to see a wide variety of those projects.
▶ 2:47:19And I think, uh, allowing, uh, having a program like this that allows that provides an opportunity financially for those local communities to, to, uh, recruit whatever type of economic development is best suited for them. >> and let me let me wrap up real quick because I want to move on. Do you know of any projects, any brownfields there in the port arthur, texas? I I'm I'm sorry I haven't looked them up. Anybody know of any. No. Okay. Mr. thompson, I'm going to come to you.
▶ 2:47:49As of today, the texas commission on environmental quality, you would recognize it as has identified 213 brownfield sites across my home state. That's all of texas, of course, with a with approximately ten of them located in my congressional district. Now I am the upper gulf coast of texas. We started the louisiana line, that other foreign country, and we come down the gulf coast. We pick up orange county, jefferson county, galveston county, the southern half of brazoria county.
▶ 2:48:18Are y'all acquainted with any of those brownfield sites? >> I am not. >> no, sir. >> I am not. >> okay, that's some some research. We should we should do. >> we may have worked on a couple of those. Congressman, uh, I would have to go back and review some of my materials. >> okay. As you all know, navigating the brownfields program requires coordination and buy in from residents as well as local elected officials to stakeholders in washington.
▶ 2:48:50Or I call it washington. Y'all probably call it washington. As communities work to remediate sites such as shield park in galveston, galveston's very historic, the oldest port in texas. If I have my facts right, what advice would you offer to local elected leaders to help ensure the process is an efficient and seamless as possible? If I'm going to tell the leaders, local leaders in galveston they need to apply for this, how do I do that? Mr. thomas thompson.
▶ 2:49:18>> I think part of it's it's really using all the resources that are available in the brownfield program, for example, starting with the technical assistance brownfield centers that are in the regions, they provide epa assistance to the local entities. The other thing that's very important is, as Mr. wells has mentioned before, is the state programs that are available to local communities. And that makes a big difference to, again, local entities.
▶ 2:49:50>> okay. Well thank you. I've run out of time. So I want to give you a little bit of texas history and why it was important. Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> gentleman yields chair now recognizes gentlelady from california, miss barragan for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. thompson. Mr. robinson, I want to start with you for just a moment. Um, I understand that you made a comment. Similar to data centers, companies are paying their way. Is that right? >> that that is correct.
▶ 2:50:14>> um, so several ai and data center companies have committed to cover the full cost of energy and grid upgrades if they build in a community so that residents don't have to pay higher electricity prices. Has your company made that commitment? >> uh, we haven't seen it yet. We've heard about it. We're prepared to make the pledge as well. Yes. And we are paying our our way. Yes. >> okay.
▶ 2:50:36The reason I'm asking this, I saw an article about consumers in seven pjm states, paid 4.4 billion for data center transmission and some other stuff. So I'm glad to hear you say that. Um, and it makes me wonder then, whether we should amend this bill, um, to have that in writing that basically, if you're going to get money for a data center that you are not going to pass on any rate hikes, um, and that the data centers are going to pay for it.
▶ 2:51:08>> congresswoman. Um, I have not commented on any of the bills. What I've mentioned is really aligns, um, experience developing brownfield sites, turning them into data centers. We've not taken advantage of the grant programs or the loan programs in doing so. And we are prepared and will continue to pay our fair share. >> okay, so it sounds like, um, you could be supportive of an amendment that says if any data center project receives a brownfield grant, the company must cover the energy costs. Is that sound accurate? >> that's fine with us.
▶ 2:51:39>> okay. That's great. Um, uh, Mr. mayor. Um. Uh, mayor. Hold on. I want to make sure I get this right. Mayor thompson. Um, I saw mayor of davis, and I just was a little, um, confused for a second. I want to thank you for your testimony for being here today. Um, when you did your opening statement, um, you talked about some of the concerns that I have.
▶ 2:52:08Um, I believe that the brownfield program was created to help communities clean up contamination on land, and they did not create, um, they did not really create this fund for, you know, folks, companies that have a lot of money that could be using that money for, for things. Although I do believe in the public private partnership, my concern is, um, is what the impact will be on changes like this. And you expressed some of those concerns that you also had. Um.
▶ 2:52:45You one of one of the things that we hear a lot about is that the brownfields program is great, and I think it's fantastic that it's bipartisan. I completely support it. Um, but not all of there isn't enough money in there right now. Right in the, in the program. Right. And you say you we, we all support, you know, putting more money into it, right? >> we do. >> yeah.
▶ 2:53:07Um, now, if epa begins prioritizing brownfield grants for projects that build data centers for nvidia and amazon, do smaller community projects like affordable housing or community parks, risk losing out on funding in a competitive grant process? >> we would lose out in that process and and not be as competitive as we would have been in the existing brownfield program. The way that it's structured today.
▶ 2:53:34>> um, you mentioned also an impact on local community and local decisions. Could you elaborate a little bit on that? >> well, I think it's important that local communities have a voice in the brownfield process. And again, through the technical assistance, uh, brownfield centers and through the state brownfield agencies, we do have that voice, and we form partnerships and alliances to go ahead and successfully complete these projects. And it's working.
▶ 2:54:05>> right. Well, my, in my district, brownfields funding is one of the only tools we have to clean up contaminated land. So it can be so it can be turned into affordable housing or green space and community facilities. If those projects start competing against large industrial infrastructure projects, it's hard to see how they don't get left out. Um, Mr. wells, is there anything you want to add on this? >> I'm sorry, I'm not. Um, what was your question? I'm not sure I understood your question.
▶ 2:54:34>> well, I was just saying, if you wanted to add anything on this conversation about the the use of the brownfield grant money and, uh, the competition against, you know, large in industrial infrastructure projects. >> I think there's a way to balance the two. I don't think that excluding private entities, uh, categorically is, is necessarily the the solution.
▶ 2:55:05>> okay. Thank you. I yield back. >> gentlelady yields. The chair now recognizes himself for five minutes for questions. Um, first thing I want to do, though, is I think what we're doing right now is one of the most important things that the committee is undertaking. And it's largely because of the race for dominance in artificial intelligence. Um, this is not artificial. This race around artificial intelligence is for one thing only, and that is to determine who will be the superpower.
▶ 2:55:37Whoever wins this race will not be a superpower. They'll be the superpower. It's not about whoever wins. This race is doing it so they can improve the environment or improve the human condition. Uh, particularly if one of our adversaries achieves that before we do. Uh, and then and then specific china. So, uh, what we're discussing today is, is, I think, critical to determining who will win that race, and that is the ability to to do a couple of things.
▶ 2:56:08One, obviously, the data centers is getting them properly located. And Mr. pouncey, I'll talk to you a little bit about, uh, military sites, uh, for locating those, uh, as well as brownfield sites. And sometimes those are the same thing. Uh, the other though, is we're, um, we're almost totally dependent on china for refined, rare earth elements. There's not a single major refinery for rare earth elements in the western hemisphere.
▶ 2:56:35Uh, mayor thompson, is your role as a general. That would have raised some significant concern for the military, and particularly given the fact that there's not a single military vehicle that I know of that can operate without rare earth elements. And you have to have antimony to harden lead so that you don't foul the barrels of your weapons. And not a single rare refinery, major refinery in the western hemisphere.
▶ 2:57:01So one of my main objectives, uh, right now is, is to get this critical infrastructure built, do it in a way that's, uh, keeping in, uh, to the standards that we already have set for environmental quality. I worked for two international engineering companies in a previous time in my career. Uh, so that we can we can decouple ourselves from china in that regard.
▶ 2:57:29It's absolutely a top national security issue. So, Mr. pouncy, I want to, uh, allow you to take a few minutes to talk about, uh, particularly the military sites. And I think some of our, uh, closed bases make sense for data centers, uh, where I think, uh. Mr. well, no, I think you bouncy that talked about the infrastructure that exists on some of the coal fired power plants that have been closed for the transmission lines are still intact, which would allow us.
▶ 2:58:00And I'm pushing small modular nuclear reactors to tie into the existing, um, lines, their transmission lines that not only could power the data center or the processing and refining facility, but increase the base load power for the local communities. Would you like to comment on that? >> let me, uh, Mr.
▶ 2:58:18Chairman, if I may start with the development of data centers, uh, uh, refineries of rare earth minerals, uh, that in my mind, it's more appropriate for those to occur at sites that already have impacts than occur, that that activity occur on greenfield sites. Uh, because I think that's, uh, you can manage that.
▶ 2:58:44And part of the cleanup of those sites can be as can be part of the construction of that new material and equipment and structures. So I think that's that's a first observation that I would make. And I do think it's appropriate to prioritize critical mission undertakings.
▶ 2:59:01Uh, in terms of site selection, the second comment I would make is with respect to, uh, with respect to military bases, we have just completed development of a data center on a military base and, uh, closed military base. And what was, uh, significant to us was, number one that we had the, uh, once again, the access to the infrastructure.
▶ 2:59:25And number two, as we looked at other uses, the data center made the most sense in terms of covering up areas of impact, preventing that impact from being, uh, subject to human exposure. Well, candidly, the data center use is a much cleaner use than what had been there previously. Uh, and so I think those are two observations I would make with regard to that.
▶ 2:59:48And then finally, I do think, uh, one of the other attractive things about having the infrastructure in place and immediate access to power and our data center, uh, Mr. robinson can testify to that is the fact that you don't have to look for interim sources of power until you can get the electricity infrastructure put in place and delivered to that data center facility, where you've got that infrastructure all in place that allows you to use the
▶ 3:00:19Power, use the electrical power immediately rather than having to use an interim source, which may be a source that has more environmental impacts than would the electricity has been provided. >> Mr. chairman, if I may, we actually have two of our existing data center sites, um, that are closely coupled, where a coal fired power plant used to be operational, uh, the one in conesville, ohio. We've got another site in pennsylvania that we're currently looking to, to redevelop.
▶ 3:00:44And then the site that we've got in sandusky, ohio, as well was an industrial site. >> uh, I recognize the gentleman from ohio, Mr. latter, for five minutes for his questions. >> well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman, and thanks for our witnesses for being here. It's really an important hearing today. Uh, especially, you know, we're talking about reusing, uh, especially mine sites. Mr. collins, if I could ask my first question to you, how can the federal government support the remediation and redevelopment of former mine sites?
▶ 3:01:13And then, just out of curiosity, if you have any any experiences where that might have happened on these federal when we're talking about military. But what about on other sites that might have been presently owned by the. >> we have some of the quarry mining sites and some others, uh, sir, across primarily the southeast, but other parts of the country as well.
▶ 3:01:35Once again, I think the, uh, the key in each of those with which I've had personal experience was the fact that we were able to use state brownfield programs. One was in maryland, uh, one is in, uh, one is in georgia, and one is actually in, uh, in the midwest. We were able to use state brownfield programs to oversee the cleanup and conversion to some other use. Uh, the federal dollars.
▶ 3:02:05And why they were important in that regard was because they went to help fund the state brownfield employees that ran that state program and therefore able to to deliver to us the immediate oversight or very quick oversight to ensure that things were being properly conducted, to ensure that there would be an acceptable closure to the site from a regulatory standpoint, and for us to be able to take advantage of financial incentives that existed within that brownfield program, primarily relief on property taxes.
▶ 3:02:37>> thank you. Uh, Mr. robinson, uh, you know, we're talking about the former, uh, energy sites. And, you know, one of the issues that if you're talking about maybe like a coal mine or something like that, you know, one of the great things about this committee, we have, uh, very broad jurisdiction. I chair the energy subcommittee.
▶ 3:02:59So when we're thinking about the generation and the transmission, the distribution of power, when you're looking at a, let's just say it would be a coal site, are there any barriers that or former coal mine or a strip mine that would be a barrier for you to be able to get in there? Are there issues on the again, from bringing, you know, that power in from either generation would be wonderful.
▶ 3:03:25The other question would be is if we're looking behind the meter at these sites, but any experience for on your end on that? >> sure. Um, our site in collinsville, ohio, what's what was really attractive about that is the transmission infrastructure feeding the site. It used to have the electrons going out, but that infrastructure now can power bringing power in. Um, that particular site also had a very large coal ash pond.
▶ 3:03:49So remediating the coal ash and the coal combustion residuals, um, is has been a process to, to overcome. There was some mining as well that was done in the hills there, uh, in ohio and coshocton. Um, so there's various issues that you may come across there as well. Um, but what's super attractive about the former power plant sites is the infrastructure.
▶ 3:04:15I think the, the transmission, uh, to, to permit a new transmission line is 7 to 10 years. Meanwhile, we can build a data center in 14 to 18 months. So there's a massive disconnect on the transmission and permitting regulatory reform to expedite that process, to then permit the fast development of data centers would be ideal.
▶ 3:04:41Um, but for right now, it's it's really the transmission feeding those, uh, power plant sites. >> let me ask this then, because let's say you can use that former site, uh, power site. You know, one of the issues we also have to contend with today is modernizing that grid out there.
▶ 3:05:00Uh, you know, from the from the preexisting site that was there, you know, are we talking about this about the same amount of, um, is it on the megawatt size or are we at, you know, a terawatt or where are we at on some of these sites? Would you have to do a lot of upgrading to that site with the modernization? Because again, it's we're talking about a massive amount of power being utilized at the site. >> yeah. No.
▶ 3:05:28Uh, prior to really any installation, we go through what's known as a load study with the local utility. In that case, it was aep. And this site used to be an aep coal fired power plant. Um, any site, though, load study is done and the local utility identifies each portion of the infrastructure that has to be improved to then carry the load that we want to bring to the data center site. And we do end up paying for those, uh, for those improvements. So we are paying our our fair share.
▶ 3:05:58>> well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman. My time is expired and I yield back. >> gentleman yields back. Chair. Recognize myself for questioning. I thank the witnesses. Uh, and I believe this may be the last, uh, I'm the last questioner. So you've survived? Um. Uh, I'll focus kind of on the rural aspect. Um, it's obviously outsized economic impact when, when done correctly. Uh, but also the, um, there are limitations on staff. And you all have talked about this today.
▶ 3:06:27Um, and that's kind of where I want to, uh, want to start. But it does make a huge difference when we do this correctly. So, uh, I'll start with mayor thompson, uh, you know, kind of what are the, the biggest, uh, practical barriers that rural towns face when trying to access or administer epa brownfield grants? And specifically, is it are we talking funding levels or cost sharing requirements, or are there restrictions or technical capacity? Can you talk us through that? >> yes, sir. It's a little bit of all of that.
▶ 3:06:56Uh, resources are very important. The program, the funding. I talked about how, you know, we really don't want to compete with the big entities because we probably would lose the ability to have the funding that we've had in the past. From a technical standpoint, we also, in rural communities, don't have the expertise to do the things we need to do for these grants, and that's where we rely on the epa's technical assistance brownfield centers, which do a great job.
▶ 3:07:22And then also our partners at the state level, also with the brownfield program, makes a big difference. And it's it's leveraging their knowledge, their expertise that allows us to be successful. >> um, thank you for that. And I'm glad to hear good, positive comments on the epa assistance as well. Uh, Mr. wells, how can, uh, can federal policy better support state brownfield responses and those programs and assisting small rural communities?
▶ 3:07:51Um, as the mayor just mentioned, that don't have the staffing to navigate the cleanup or the redevelopment on their own. >> well, we we serve in that role of helping people walk through the process and, and adequately funding the the components of the program that fund our work. There is is critical.
▶ 3:08:13>> are there specific examples where you can cite that, uh, that that it is in states or that, you know, of examples that have gone well and those that have not gone well. >> um, with our help, I'm not aware of any that haven't gone well. >> um, I'll turn to Mr. robinson. You mentioned, uh, you just talked about some permitting with, uh, with my colleague. Um, and you know what? What conditions?
▶ 3:08:41Uh, make a brownfield site viable for private investment. And then what role should the federal incentives play in ensuring that these projects are financially feasible without overriding local priorities? How does that fit into some of the permitting discussions? >> um, one point that I really wanted to make was we do take community involvement. Uh, there was a description of a data center coming to a town, ignoring the local community. That's certainly not how we do our data center projects.
▶ 3:09:09We often have community information sessions that we go into the community even before we buy the land. We share what our plans are. I've done three of them in the last month alone, going into the community, getting feedback, sharing with them what we'd like to do with the site that helps gain trust and transparency to the process. So many of our permits are local permits. Um, so that really helps the process from a permitting standpoint.
▶ 3:09:37Earlier I mentioned we have not taken advantage of the brownfield programs, the brownfield sites that we've developed, and there's six plus that we've done as a company as part of our sustainability mission, taking brownfield sites, putting them back into productive use, making it part of the digital infrastructure for this, for this new age. Um, we've not had to use any of those grant programs to date. Um, so I can't really specify any issues that need to be rectified. >> um.
▶ 3:10:08>> mayor thompson, just on a cost basis, uh, without some of these permitting reforms, as we craft this legislation, I mean, give us an idea of what the cost could be if we don't streamline and make it more efficient for some of the staffing positions. You know, you have to go out and hire attorneys. You have to go do different things that maybe a small community like mine is not set up to do. >> well.
▶ 3:10:34I think especially when you look at the the epa technical assistance brownfield centers, uh, they actually had a 20% staffing cut through the doj's efforts, and that has hampered their ability to support local rural communities in some of the advice and technical assistance. So shoring that up would be very, very helpful. >> very interesting. We have 20s left. Did anybody not get a chance to say something, Mr. pouncey?
▶ 3:11:02I didn't have specific questions, but I'll yield to you for 15 20s if you have anything. >> it is, uh. I would just reemphasize the role that the private sector plays in developing and cleaning up these sites. And so there we can't understate the fact that we need them as a player at the table. >> thank you. >> my time has expired. Um, and I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today.
▶ 3:11:33Members may have additional written questions for you, and I'll remind members to, uh, to get those in within ten business days. And I ask that the witnesses do their best to submit responses within ten business days upon receipt of those questions, and I ask unanimous consent to insert into the record the documents included on the staff hearing document list. Without objection, so ordered and without objection, the committee is adjourned.