▶ 0:17:45Order, and I'd like to welcome everyone to this important hearing today. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time, and I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Welcome to today's hearing regarding the postal service's financial future. The postal service is charged with delivering mail to every address to the nation six days a week.
▶ 0:18:10This mandate is one that brings with it huge cost that no private company is required to deal with. It is on the post office. For each year, the postal service loses billions of dollars. And now 12 months. And now we know that in 12 months they will run out in cash. And so we have been engaging both Mr.
▶ 0:18:33And fumi and I and this subcommittee with the postmaster general for quite some time about the meaning of that and how we might address those issues. The postmaster, the last postmaster, louis dejoy, launched his delivering for america plan, which was designed to revive the postal service. And unfortunately, those expectations were not reached. Mr. steiner now has taken that new role as our new post.
▶ 0:19:05Postmaster general, congratulations and thank you for being here, Mr. steiner. A role that is very focused on taking on full advantage of the last mile capacity to grow revenue, raising revenue, cutting costs and utilizing the capacities and capabilities of private industry we believe will be the path forward. Understanding which aspects of delivering for america plan will remain and which have been stopped is a key path to that.
▶ 0:19:37As we move forward without proper transparency and overwrite, congress will be unable to see whether action and further action is necessary. And that is why we are also here today.
▶ 0:19:49And with the postal service's request for increase in borrowing authority from the treasury, congress needs to have confidence not only that they'll be able to pay it back, but that they're on the right road to achieve financial security for congress to consult, to consider this request, the postal service must also prove that they have exhausted their options already, and this is a part of the regular interaction that takes place between, um, this
▶ 0:20:20Subcommittee, as well as our staff and the postmaster general and his staff as they work through the needs of understanding the ideas and where they meet with revenue objectives. Like so many actions that are available to the postal service, they need to look at them and understand what those ramifications mean. And we while we have been in dialog over those, some of those have taken place.
▶ 0:20:47And we look forward to today to hearing about those outcomes and answers. So I'm delighted to be here today. Uh, I think Mr. mfume and I both wake up, as Mr. steiner does at 3:00 some mornings with this on our mind. But I would also say that many of our other members do that also as well.
▶ 0:21:11The huge industry that surrounds this, it is a very important competitive marketplace. It is a very important, uh, part of the american economy and the vibrancy of this country. Uh, but we also come at this as members of congress from our opportunity to serve people back home who want and need the postal service to be viable, uh, but to be cost effective also.
▶ 0:21:41And so all of these things come to point today, another day where we're able to have the postmaster general, and I'm delighted that he is here. I would like to yield now the time to the gentleman, distinguished gentleman, my good friend, and a gentleman who I think he and I both share many of the same ideas, not only about america's bright future, but about our responsibility and oversight. Distinguished gentleman from maryland is recognized. Well.
▶ 0:22:12>> thank you very much, Mr. chairman, and thank you for those kind and gracious remarks. I'm glad that we are here together one more time and here to discuss what we consider. And many out there who are watching us consider to be a vital issue. I want to welcome also the postmaster general. Mr. steiner, good to see you again. And, Mr.
▶ 0:22:34Moroni, I hope that we can have a productive conversation today on how to put the postal service back on the right track for delivering for the american people. Uh, as we all know, for more than 250 years, our postal service has performed an indispensable service to this country and its citizens through its universal service obligation.
▶ 0:23:01Uh, the postal service knits together communities. It powers businesses and bridges geographic and economic and cultural divides. Americans in every part of this country rely upon and really deserve prompt, reliable and efficient mail services.
▶ 0:23:23I have unfortunately been alarmed over the last 15 months, uh, to see in many respects, efforts to politicize the process as we know it. Uh, president trump, unfortunately, has threatened to do everything from merging the postal service with the department of commerce to firing an entire board of governors and former postmaster general dejoy left his position prematurely last year under pressure from the white house
▶ 0:23:54After he refused to grant doj officials access to postal service systems. So moving forward, I would urge, urge you, uh, Mr. postmaster general, to continue defending against any threat that's brought up that would and somehow or another, undercut the independence of the postal service.
▶ 0:24:15Uh, and many of my colleagues have also watched with great concern in recent years as the financial condition has deteriorated and service standards in the eyes of some people, uh, have fallen. The last thing that we want is a privatized system.
▶ 0:24:33And I would hope that every time we meet those efforts by those who argue that privatization is the way to go, that we are steadfast and firm in resisting, that putting the postal service back on a financial and secure footing is key.
▶ 0:24:50And since july of 2021, first class mail costs have increased 41%, while delivery standards were lengthened from 2 to 5 days to now, 3 to 5, well, 2 to 3 days to now, 3 to 5 days. So that means that americans have to pay higher prices for a service that is, uh, not as good as it was last year.
▶ 0:25:15Postmaster general steiner, you met with members of the subcommittee to share your plans for stabilizing the postal service's finances. We thank you for that. Since then, however, the postal service has continued. Unfortunately, to lose money at an alarming rate, while performance has continued to suffer in fiscal year 2025, the postal service suffered a net loss of $9 billion. That's been well reported.
▶ 0:25:44We're all familiar with that figure, with a further $1.3 billion loss in the first quarter of this year alone, the postal service is approaching a liquidity crisis. Indeed, without significant reforms, it will not have enough cash on hand to meet its required payments as early as 2027. So for the good of all americans who rely on the postal service for critical mail, medicine, ballots, uh, etc.
▶ 0:26:14We cannot allow that to happen in the postal service obviously needs to cut costs and increase revenue. I appreciate the postmaster general's effort to do so over the last year or so. Uh, but this is not an easy matter at all. It's a hell of a juggling act, to say the very, very least.
▶ 0:26:32So I want to make sure that we in this committee, uh, and those who are watching this, who are concerned about the postal service, find a way to realize a couple of things. In addition to cutting costs and increasing revenue.
▶ 0:26:50Uh, there are indeed morale issues that have to be confronted also because some people grew up in the mail service believing it to be one way and look at it today, and whether or not figure out whether or not they have a role in it. Um, most concerning the president has continued baseless attacks, I think, on the legitimacy of the democratic process threatening to deprive.
▶ 0:27:16And I'm going somewhere with this millions of americans by doing away with or eliminating mail in ballots and punishing states that refuse to comply. And that is why chairman sessions, myself, other members of this committee on both sides of the aisle, introduced the bipartisan vote by mail tracking act, which would also standardize ups tracking barcodes to every ballot that's mailed in, giving voters real time visibility
▶ 0:27:47Into whether or not their ballot has been received and or processed. And because we all agree, I believe, that the vote and the ability to vote is a sacred american right, any effort to abridge that right goes against virtually everything that we stand for as a nation. So moving forward, I have every confidence, Mr.
▶ 0:28:09Postmaster general, that you and the workforce that you've assembled and the one that you've inherited, will all work in this election year to ensure that every ballot is delivered and every vote is counted. And I want to take the time to recognize the incredible work of the postal workforce that the chairman alluded to earlier. They continue to do for the american people a great service. And they do it in a way that they don't complain.
▶ 0:28:35We all remember what happened in the last election season, when they were faced with the insurmountable task that some thought at the time to be able to sort the mail and deliver the mail and guarantee the mail. And yet they did that. And only weeks after that ran into an avalanche of different challenges posed by the overwhelming load of holiday mail. And they did that back to back.
▶ 0:29:01Regrettably, however, letter carriers across this country are increasingly the subject of violence by criminals. We've spoken about this before. We all share this concern. Criminals target locked mailboxes that are only accessible to the united states public service. I've seen postal workers beaten and stabbed and left to fend for their own while help comes up.
▶ 0:29:27We've seen the videos all over youtube on that, so no postal service worker should fear for their safety at work. And that's why I've pushed for the implementation of the postal service's joint protection safe delivery initiative.
▶ 0:29:41I know it sounds like a lot, but it does a lot and it's designed to do that as we try to provide a way to make sure that there is safety that goes with this job and all the attendant positions and industries that that are part of it. Now, one final thing, I'm going to yield back to the chairman, who's very, very generous with his time. We are in a situation where we cannot lose the postal service as we know it.
▶ 0:30:10We all agree on that. I think the question becomes, how do we find a way to fight back against those efforts and those persons that don't necessarily believe it? And it is an all hands on deck kind of an issue where whether you're in the field, whether you're in the building, whether you're at headquarters or whether you are doing something else related to the mail, this means all of us sort of.
▶ 0:30:34And by the way, and whether it means you're sitting on one of these committees of oversight, it means that all of us have to find a way to put aside any differences and to recognize that if we don't all go forward, we will all go backwards. So it's been a pleasure working with this chairman, who shares many of my ideas, and I share many of his on this.
▶ 0:30:56We've tried to approach this as a bipartisan effort, uh, and have left out to the extent we can, anything that sometimes creeps in as partizan. Because at the end of the day, it's the service and the people who deserve the service more than anything else that we're all assembled here for. So I thank you again for your generosity of time, Mr. chairman, and for working together on this issue. As we have for years now. I never thought I'd say we've been doing it for years, but we have been.
▶ 0:31:26And I yield back my time. >> I thank the gentleman, Mr. mfume, for his conversation. I believe that I will take it succinctly down to the point that he and I overwhelmingly agree with, and that is, we have to keep the issues directly in front of us. We have to work on them. We have to understand them. We have to, uh, deal with them. And I could not have a better partner to do that with than you, sir.
▶ 0:31:52Uh, although I will say over time, you look better and I look older. So, uh, with that objection, uh, we are going to welcome our young chairman, james comer, who is here, chairman of the full committee.
▶ 0:32:09Uh, we also welcome congressman timmons from south carolina, congressman boebert, uh, from colorado college, walkinshaw of virginia, congressman tlaib of michigan, congressman zilinski of illinois, and congressman bell of missouri. All I'm sorry, I'm supposed to say missouri. I used to live in missouri, but they like to call it missouri. They're all waived on the subcommittee for the purpose of questioning the witness at today's subcommittee hearing.
▶ 0:32:40So thank you very much. We now will move to the reason why we're here, and I'm pleased to welcome our witnesses for today. Mr. steiner is the postmaster general and chief executive officer of the united states postal service, having held this position since july of 2025. Prior to this, he was the ceo of waste management and on the board of directors of fedex. Our second witness today is Mr.
▶ 0:33:11Maroney. He is director of physical infrastructure at the government accounting office. The gao is expert in many areas and he will soon prove his worthiness. Today, he is an expert in the postal service and federal real property management.
▶ 0:33:27So I look forward to both of you not only being here for your testimony, but answering the questions I would ask that both of you now stand for you to be sworn in before this subcommittee pursuant to committee rule nine g. The witnesses will please raise their hand, which they have done, and the right hand is raised.
▶ 0:33:48And I will ask the question, do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Let the record reflect that both witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Uh, I would now like for you to know that we normally follow this five minute rule.
▶ 0:34:13But what I'm interested today, and, uh, I've informed the gentleman, the chairman of the rules committee. She will take the time that she needs. You have drawn a lot of people who will come today. Not everybody is here right now. But you have drawn this, and I'm interested in us members, and you give it an opportunity to fully vet your answer and to be given that time. And if you exceed that, I'll let you know.
▶ 0:34:37So I now would recognize the gentleman, the postmaster general of the united states postal service, the gentleman, Mr. steiner, for his opening statement. Thank. >> ranking member and chairman comer and members, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss how the postal service is at a critical juncture. At our current rate, we'll be out of cash in less than 12 months.
▶ 0:35:02So in about a year from now, the postal service would be unable to deliver the mail. If we continue the status quo. So how did we get here and how do we solve the problem we got here because of the drastic reduction in the use of the mail from historic peak volume of 213 billion pieces per year to today, at 109 billion pieces per year, we've lost over 104 billion pieces per year in our
▶ 0:35:32System. For perspective, if all of that lost volume was paid at the current price of a stamp, which is $0.78, that's about $81 billion of lost revenue. No company could weather that much revenue loss, so it's not hard to see how we got here. I like to say that we got thrown overboard and into the water, but instead of tossing us a life jacket, we were thrown an anchor. So what does that anchor look like and why is it weighing us down?
▶ 0:36:01First, we pay an unfair share of csr benefits, which cost us about $3 billion a year. Second, we can't borrow more than $15 billion. The $15 billion limit was established decades ago. If you applied inflation or based it on revenue, that limit should be 30 to $40 billion. Third, we can only invest our retirement in treasury notes.
▶ 0:36:26If we were able to invest conservatively, we would have an additional $800 billion in retirement benefits. Fourth, we're mandated by law to deliver to every address more than 170 million of them, six days a week. This leads to 71% of our delivery routes being financially underwater. If we're expected to deliver six days a week to every location, someone needs to pay for that.
▶ 0:36:54Fifth, we're not allowed to manage our own worker's compensation claims. That costs us anywhere from 400 million to $800 million per year. Next, we're regulated like a monopoly, but we no longer exist as one. In fact, we're regulated worse than a monopoly because even a monopoly is allowed to make money. Our regulator causes us to lose billions annually.
▶ 0:37:18Just recently, they passed an order that, by their own estimate, could lose us nearly $1 billion a year. Clearly, they're not following their mandate to make the postal service financially viable. And there are other parts to the anchor.
▶ 0:37:36Transporting cargo to remote parts of the us cost us about $150 million, keeping post offices open and not being allowed to consider losses as a reason to replace them with alternative means, is another $840 million, and the list goes on. All those costly inequities amassed to an incredibly burdensome anchor that plagues our trajectory. And we should have a discussion about all of them.
▶ 0:38:02But in order to survive beyond the next year, we need to increase our borrowing capacity so that we don't run out of cash. Despite all of this, we're proud of our universal service mission, and we do everything possible to work through the restrictions to deliver mail and packages that are so dependent upon by americans. And we're also not standing by as we sink under the weight of the anchor. We're taking steps to fight our way back above water on pricing. We need higher prices on both our package and mail products.
▶ 0:38:32At $0.78, the us first class stamp is the lowest in the industrialized world. Compare it to france at almost $3 and england at $2.50. And the longest distance those letters have to travel is about 600 miles smaller than the state of texas. We deliver from the tip of puerto rico to the tip of alaska for $0.78. That's a distance of 5000 miles.
▶ 0:38:59So we sell the stamp at less than half the cost to travel eight times farther. If we were to change the stamp price to 90 to $0.95, which is still less than half of the cost of foreign posts, that would largely solve our controllable loss, and the stamp would still be the lowest in the industrialized world by a lot.
▶ 0:39:22And on the cost side, the postal service has undertaken a transformation of our network and operating practices to reduce costs. We know that our execution should have been much better, and that we've not achieved all the savings that we initially projected, but we can do more. We will continue to reduce costs wherever we can, and I've asked our team to develop a plan to further reduce costs. So I'm here to tell america that we can do anything you want.
▶ 0:39:51We've been doing exactly that for over 250 years. If you want the same number of delivery days and post offices, we can do that. But someone has to pay for it. If you want to have a discussion about reducing services, we can do that too. But there's one thing we can't do, and that is the status quo. And we don't have a lot of time. One easy action increasing our borrowing authority buys us time.
▶ 0:40:18Time that we can use to best determine what the postal service should do to best serve the american public. We stand ready to continue serving all americans. We just ask that you take away the anchors and let us operate like a truly independent agency, free from requirements that weigh us down, or that you compensate us for the cost of those anchors. If we can do either of those, I can promise unparalleled service for the next 250 years.
▶ 0:40:50Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. Mr. >> thank you, chairman sessions, ranking member mfume and members of the subcommittee. I'm pleased to be here today to discuss the future of the united states postal service.
▶ 0:41:09Gao has been making the case for more than 15 years that usps finances are a high risk issue in need of substantial transformation, rising costs and declining mail volumes have made usps existing business model unsustainable. As a result, it has accumulated billions of dollars in net losses as its debt and unfunded liabilities have continued to grow.
▶ 0:41:32We are now at a critical moment, with the postmaster general stating that usps could run out of cash as early as next year. Urgent action is needed to get ahead of any near-term cash crisis, while also putting usps on a sustainable, long term path. Without action, there could be substantial consequences for american households and businesses that rely on usps services. In short, it's time for congress to fix usps outdated business model.
▶ 0:42:01This will require making difficult choices with significant trade offs. There are no easy solutions. However, it is better to make those choices now rather than wait until crisis hits. To be clear, usps and congress have taken significant actions. In the past five years, usps has implemented a wide ranging ten year plan with the aim of fixing its finances, and congress has passed major postal legislation to provide financial relief.
▶ 0:42:29However, those actions have not been enough. While usps has been able to increase its revenue and cut some costs, its overall expenses have grown at a faster rate. While its service performance has declined. This pattern is not sustainable. There is a fundamental tension between the level of services that congress expects usps to provide, and the revenue that usps can reasonably be expected to generate. Something has to change.
▶ 0:42:56For its part, usps needs to take additional actions within its own authority to try and improve its financial situation. This includes considering changes to its current ten year plan and identifying ways to increase its revenues, while tackling cost growth. As it does so, usps should develop long term financial projections that will help communicate its outlook and progress to congress, and identify actions to help put it on a financially viable path.
▶ 0:43:26That said, it is highly unlikely that usps usps will be able to fix its poor financial condition on its own. Congress will need to act. Indeed, congress may need to provide some short term financial relief to help usps avoid running out of cash. At the same time, it's essential that congress also address the long term issues with usps business model.
▶ 0:43:48If those underlying issues aren't addressed now, usps will likely continue to struggle financially and its service performance may decline further. Indeed, within five years, usps will be responsible for an additional $6 billion a year in retiree health care costs, on top of other expenses that are likely to continue to grow.
▶ 0:44:08To fix usps business model for the long term, congress will need to decide on the level of postal service the nation requires and determine a balanced approach to funding those services. In conclusion, usps has been struggling financially for years and is now approaching a crisis point. It is imperative that usps and congress act with urgency to both address the near-term cash crisis, as well as fix usps business model for the long term. Difficult choices ahead.
▶ 0:44:40But those choices need to be made now to put usps on a sustainable financial path. A financially viable usps will best be able to provide high quality service to the american people. Mr. chairman, that concludes my opening statement. I'll be happy to answer any questions. >> thank you very much. Uh, obviously your insight from both of you will be available to this subcommittee, and I appreciate that.
▶ 0:45:06Uh, I would move first as the distinguished gentleman, the chairman of the committee. Wish time. Gentlemen, Mr. comer. Okay, then. Sounds like the gentleman is going to be here for a little bit. I would move to the distinguished gentlewoman. Oh, you do want to go now? Statement. No, I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry, I apologize. Well, and, Mr. chairman, thank you and the ranking member for always having quality meetings.
▶ 0:45:37Mr. postmaster general, welcome. Uh, I have three questions. I'm going to try to get in in my five minutes. Uh, I want to start with a report. Uh. Oh, the office of inspector general, uh, regarding waste in the postal service, uh, usps ship program, uh, a topic that is of significant concern to this committee. The oig found that the postal service has spent over $1.5 billion developing the ship program, and it's something that the private sector already has.
▶ 0:46:07Uh, the private sector already offers. The program wasted billions. The oig recommended ending it. Your chief financial officer agreed to end it, but it is not ended. First, do you agree that the usps should not spend billions recreating, uh, programs that the private sector already offers at a fraction of the cost? >> yeah, I mean, that's a great question.
▶ 0:46:32Um, you know, from our perspective, we want to give the customer the best experience. And, uh, generally, I would say giving the customer the best experience is dealing directly with our customers. Um, but we have looked at situations where we would have, um, others between us and our customers to do that type of technology work. We're actually looking at it right now. Um. >> but then I apologize for interrupting my limited time.
▶ 0:46:59So will you or will you not commit to ending this program immediately? I mean, that's part of what we're all concerned about, at least on this side of the aisle, is, uh, the losses. We want to protect the postal service, but we've got to make some business decisions. >> no doubt about it. And, and I will tell you, Mr. chairman, that we have not made a final decision on that. But, um, I appreciate the question. We'll make sure to get you a final decision on that posthaste.
▶ 0:47:25>> well, let's talk about the postal service reform act that worked very closely when I was ranking member within chairman maloney. And that was a a true bipartisan bill, because there's bipartisan support for the postal service. One of the things that we expected when we gave the postal service some money to stabilize the books, everything that you're talking about today, we did five years ago.
▶ 0:47:51What cost cutting measures has the usps implemented since the postal service reform act passed and became law? >> sure. Um, as you're well aware, you know, we transform the network. Um, we basically went to a, a typical hub and spoke network, something that's been around for hundreds of years, been used by every logistics company since 1955, um, going to that network.
▶ 0:48:17So we reduced transportation costs, we reduced number of times that we move boxes. >> did that reduce costs? >> that has reduced costs by about 2.1 $2.2 billion. >> well. >> according to our original our original projection was 3.6. So we aren't there yet.
▶ 0:48:38>> it based on the numbers, it looks to me like nearly 80% of the us postal service's cost are labor, which is the case with just about every government agency. The biggest expense in your entire budget is personnel, and most federal agencies today have hiring freezes. Why would that not be something you would be looking at to reduce costs? Instead of asking congress for a bailout?
▶ 0:49:09>> oh, we're absolutely looking at that. Um, now remember, there's two pieces to our to our network. There's folks that actually deliver the mail. And you know, you don't want to do a hiring freeze there because if we do that, then we won't deliver mail. Um, from a, from a management perspective, you know, we have not increased the, the number of our employees dramatically. Um, but as you know, we've brought in the. >> but they've increased and every other government agency decreasing the actually, just like most private sector. >> yeah.
▶ 0:49:37Actually in the last four years, we have about 30, 35,000 fewer employees. Um, and we're moving toward more of those employees being pre career rather than career. There's two ways we can really save money here. That's changing our mix of career and non-career more toward non-career. >> about part time and full time. Correct. >> um, basically, and uh, the other is overtime, both regular overtime penalty overtime, you know, those are 100 to $150 million for every percentage point you move them.
▶ 0:50:07Um, so we're, that's where we're, that's where we're focusing. But, but you're absolutely right. We have to look at everything. We can't look at just one piece. >> and look, we, we support the postal workers. My grandmother delivered the mail. She spent 27 years as a, as a mail carrier in red bull in springs, tennessee. I support the post office, very popular in my district, but people are frustrated with the post office.
▶ 0:50:30We all have horror stories from the postal service, but what's frustrating to me, and I think many members on this committee, is that. It seems like we're we're trying to do more in the postal service in-house instead of privatizing even even before the postal reform act passed a few years ago, you, uh, privatized a lot of the logistics and things like that, that it appears now the postal service is trying to do itself,
▶ 0:51:00And it's hard for me to believe as much trouble as the postal service has it. Delivering the mail on time efficiently that anyone would believe the postal service, run by the government can operate cheaper than private companies that have been contracted with the postal service for years. And we're. Or I'll speak for myself. I'm frustrated that a lot of private companies that have been doing business with the postal service for years have been cut out in the last year or two.
▶ 0:51:31>> yeah. I mean, I'm not sure which which part of the network you're referring to. We did the only thing that we've really insourced in the last year is, um, our local transportation network. And we started to insource that I will tell you anytime I can do something better, cheaper, we're going to do it. And that's hard for. >> me to believe you're doing it cheaper from the postal service. You've done that and you're asking for more money. It's just hard to believe. Maybe, maybe it's true, but it's hard for me to believe being in congress nine and a half years. >> well, if you believe our accountants, it's true.
▶ 0:52:01Um, there's about 44. >> about the government. I'll have. >> to think about that. There's about $44 million that we've saved by insourcing that. But even more importantly, it helps service. So when we use third parties, we have to call them, take some time to get there. Um, you know, they're sometimes they'll show, sometimes they won't. When we have our own folks on site with the trucks, they can move immediately. So what we get is better service at a cheaper cost.
▶ 0:52:25Now, that's not to say that there's not plenty, um, that we don't do well, but that that is one thing we're doing pretty well. >> Mr. chairman, my time has expired. I yield back. >> gentleman yields back his time. The gentleman, Mr. mfume, is recognized. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Again, um, Mr.
▶ 0:52:48Postmaster general, I took some notes with what you were saying and I, I have a couple of observations and maybe you can kind of point me in the direction where you think you should be going. Uh, aside from that, there's an old saying that says, the harder I go, the behinder I get. And we have been rushing through this committee for the last several years, uh, emphatically trying to find a way to avoid the crisis that's in front of us now. And we look up and behind her. We are.
▶ 0:53:16So your points, if I have them correctly, was that you don't have the ability to manage your worker compensation plans. Is that correct? >> that's one of them, yes. >> that you've lost $81 billion in real time over an accumulated number of years as a result of a reduction in the volume of mail in the united states. Is that correct? >> well, we lost 104 billion pieces.
▶ 0:53:42I was just using the 78 cent stamp to for for illustrative, illustrative purposes. Okay. Yeah. So that. >> would be and the other point you were making is that unlike other places, you're required to transport to remote places across the united states. Is that correct? >> that's correct.
▶ 0:54:00>> and that you said that the 78 cent stamp is the lowest out of all industrialized countries, and that it travels the fewer miles for it to be taken advantage of, or to liver, I should say the mail is that is that correct? >> that's correct. >> um, this is a situation that Mr.
▶ 0:54:20Maroney mentioned earlier about the gao strongly recommending, aside from congressional assistance in terms of of money, that the postal service do everything that it can within its power to drive back the costs and to get out of the situation we're in. Mr. maroney, is that correct? >> yes. That's correct. >> and what would some of those things be? >> so there are ways to get compensation under control.
▶ 0:54:51That's the major area of cost growth. There would be continue to find ways to get costs out of transportation, out of the network process. There are steps that usps has been taking to get those costs under control, but you have the fundamental issue of volumes declining. While the amount of places the usps has to deliver are increasing. So there's a fundamental disconnect there that's driving up costs.
▶ 0:55:11>> and I'm sure benjamin well, we won't call his name here today because I'm sure he's probably spinning in his grave looking at this, but the first postmaster general could not anticipate fedex, amazon, ups, but you're faced with those as a competing force. Can you take a quick minute and tell us whether or not you have any ability to control those costs or losses, I should say. >> um. In what regard? >> well, what are you doing with your competition?
▶ 0:55:40Who clearly wants to do all that it can to take away your business? >> yeah, a great question. Look, the reality is, until the recent changes to the network, we didn't have a network that could even compete with fedex and ups and amazon. It just couldn't compete. And so what we've designed now is a network that can compete, but it competes at at the lower levels. So just to give you an example, um, our average weight of our package is about 1 to 1.2 pounds.
▶ 0:56:08Fedex ups, they're closer to 5 pounds. And as you move up in weight, you move up in value. And so you move up in profitability. So our network was designed for lower weight packages. We need to move that up. We need to go after those higher value packages. But we also need to continue to get those lower value packages. And then in that lower value package market, what you've seen is a dramatic change in how that market is being served. What do I mean by that?
▶ 0:56:38The gig gig economy. Um, so you've got very low cost providers coming from foreign countries being subsidized by foreign governments, coming in and selling transportation at below cost so that they can. >> I got it. I'm going to have to reclaim my time. It's very limited. Uh, and maybe you'll get a chance to respond to another member's question on that subject. But let me just go back to the point I initially made that Mr.
▶ 0:57:03Maroney said, short of everything that's being proposed as stopgap measures, that ups should be doing everything it can under its authority to reduce costs. Can you tell us what what that is? I want to follow up on the chairman's question on that, and specifically tell us how those costs have been reduced, Mr. postmaster. >> oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking to the other david.
▶ 0:57:28Um, so, you know, obviously we put together a network that reduces number of trips, reduces transportation costs, reduces fuel costs. I mean, it's, it's as I said, it's a hub and spoke network. It's been proven to work since it was invented in 1955 by delta airlines. Um, every major logistics company uses it, but there is a difference between building a network and operating a network. And we've built the network we're close to done building the network.
▶ 0:57:55We have yet to fully really learn how to operate the network. And that's where the savings start to come is when you learn how to operate the network. What you've seen is that the pace of savings has increased and, and the pace of service has gotten better. >> thank you sir. My my time has expired though. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> gentleman yields back his time. Distinguished gentleman. Chairman of the rules committee. Miss fox is recognized. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:58:22I thank our witnesses for being here, and I want to say that I particularly join Mr. mfume and you, Mr. chairman, in thanking the local postal workers for their work. I'm a lifelong letter writer and always use the post office, but I'm very concerned with the with the caliber of service that we are getting and with the fact that the post office continues to come to us for more money.
▶ 0:58:50I mailed my husband a valentine ten a week before valentine's day. He still hasn't received it. People in my office know people who've sent out wedding invitations, mailed in plenty of time. People haven't received them. A month later. This is unacceptable, Mr. postmaster general. Absolutely unacceptable.
▶ 0:59:16If you want people to stop not using the post office, you want them to continue to use the post office. Then they have to get the kind of service that they deserve and have had in the past. Now, we were told the delivering for america plan was a long time strategy to steady postal service finances, improve operations and protect the future of the mail system. But the ups losses continue.
▶ 0:59:49Productivity has declined, americans get repeated rate increases, slower services. I was a big part of the postal service reform act also in 2022. So given what's going on, the very negative things that are happening, what evidence suggests the current plan is working? I heard what you just said. And why should congress expect different results if the dfa plan continues? >> yeah, I couldn't agree with you more on the service issue.
▶ 1:00:21We absolutely have to do a better job with what we call the tale of the mail, the wedding invitation that shows up late, the valentine's day card that doesn't get there on time. Um, you know, this is an unbelievably complicated network. Just to give you perspective, um, fedex and ups both deliver well under 10 billion packages a year, well under 10 billion. We deliver 110 billion pieces per year.
▶ 1:00:47And so this network is so much more sophisticated than those networks because of mail. And so there are hundreds of pinch points where there can be problems. It goes back to what I said earlier. You can build a network, but you got to learn how to operate the network. And I will tell you, we are not great at operating the network. Um, we've put doug tulino in charge of that, making sure that all three of our, our pieces that that, that do delivery are joined together and working together. And you started to see progress.
▶ 1:01:17You started to see some very good progress in service. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that we're there yet. >> so can we expect modifications to the plan and better service? Mr. maroney said that you have controllable costs, but you didn't give us any specifics. Um, we know that if you could reduce controllable costs by roughly 2% per year, you'd put the postal service on a path to break even.
▶ 1:01:46Given that possibility, what specific steps is usps taking to reduce controllable costs? >> well, we've got to look at controllable costs everywhere. So, um, we've talked about it in the network. You've got fuel costs. Of course, you're going to see those disappear as we've seen the price of fuel go up. Um you've got labor costs. You've seen our work hours come down by over 50 million work hours. Now we need to make those, make sure that those work hours are straight time hours, not overtime hours.
▶ 1:02:15Um, and we need to make sure that our complement moves more toward pre career than career. We still have a lot of room to grow there. So, um, there's a lot of dollars to be saved right there. And the rest of the money is going to come by us learning how to operate the network better. But let me make it very, very, very, very clear. We are not going to save our way out of the hole that we're in. There is, you know, I know that that the prior plan said break even in 2023.
▶ 1:02:42Um, not going to happen didn't happen. And I don't expect to see it happen anytime soon for on the current path that we are on. Why is that? Because inflation, inflation keeps eating up our savings. >> I'd like to follow up on the question from chairman komer, also about duplicative insourcing. Done.
▶ 1:03:04I think many of us share the concern that there's a way to contract out a lot of services, but you keep bringing those things back inside and it's costing more because of the overtime and the number of people that you have there working. So please say a little bit more about what you can do not to have this insourcing going on. >> yeah, as far as I know, there's only one thing we insourced and again, that's local transportation and those costs, I said down $44 million.
▶ 1:03:36That's 17%. There's a 17% savings in that in that in that cost of, of local transportation, not only is there 17% savings, but we get better service. I think that's a win win. I'm not going to tell you that's going to solve the problem. $44 million doesn't get you there. But that's that's one instance where I would tell you, um, we made the right business decision. >> Mr. chairman, thank you for your indulgence. I yield back. >> thank you very much. I appreciate the gentlewoman taking time.
▶ 1:04:04I know that these are important issues to her, and she catches me on a regular basis. I appreciate her taking time here. Uh, the gentlewoman, miss norton, is recognized. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to begin by thanking postal service employees for their dedication and hard work.
▶ 1:04:30Postal general district residents have brought to my attention that their local post offices are often closed during normal business hours. That is unacceptable. Our request that you examine this matter and report back to me within 30 days on how you will fix it.
▶ 1:04:51At at a time when more and more and more americans are struggling to cover the costs of basic goods and services, increased postal service prices are especially hard to accept. Millions of people across the country rely on the postal service to pay their bills.
▶ 1:05:21Father taxes, run their businesses and fully participate in our society. Since july 2021, first class mail rates have increased by nearly 42%. At the same time, the delivery standards have been lengthened from 2 to 3 days to 3 to 5 days. Postal general, can you comment?
▶ 1:05:50Can you commit that the costs of the postal service's financial situation will not be disproportionately borne by customers via increased prices and lower delivery standards? >> yeah. Um, you know, look, we are still by far the lowest price stamp in the industrialized world.
▶ 1:06:19Every industrialized country has dealt with this issue and they've had to triple quadruple prices. Um you talked about the 42% price increase. That's because we were at such a low base relative to the rest of the world. Six of the last 12 price increases have been under 2%. And so, um, you know, I am a firm believer that the market should set the rate and the market is not setting the rate right now.
▶ 1:06:46And the other thing I would say is, look, we're all users of the postal service. If we raise the stamp by a price of $0.15, someone that uses 100 stamps a year, that cost them a dollar and a half. If you're a super user and you used a thousand stamps a year, cost you $150, is that worth saving the postal service?
▶ 1:07:17>> um, Mr. moroney, what changes can be made, uh, to postal service occupation operations to put the postal service back to a secure financial footing without costing, without continuing to see higher prices and lower service levels.
▶ 1:07:44>> so in terms of that model, I don't think it is possible that usps on its own, without some sort of revenue increases and cost growth can get to a sustainable path. I do think that congressional action is going to be needed based on our work, uh, to address either. First, what's the level of service that the american people need? Is it the same, less, more? And then figuring out how to, how is that going to be funded?
▶ 1:08:09Does it you could reduce services and usps could take actions, cut costs, increase revenues to try and meet that level of service. Or you could reduce service levels or something in between. But I don't think based on where things are right now, usps on its own could, uh, it can take actions to reduce costs, it can take actions to increase revenue, but I don't think it can get there on its own.
▶ 1:08:33>> the postal service must not only be accessible and reliable, its services must be also affordable. The american people need an affordable postal service. And I yield back. >> gentleman yields back her time. I would also like to take just a second and thank you for your service. This is not a point that we will be at as we will be later in the year, but I want to thank you both, Mr. and fumi.
▶ 1:09:03I appreciate your not only insistence to come to every one of our subcommittee hearings, but to genuinely participate in that. And I appreciate you very much. And I want to thank you. The distinguished gentleman, Mr. palmer from alabama, you recognize, sir? >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and, um, thank you, Mr. postmaster general, Mr. maroney, for being here. Um.
▶ 1:09:27There's a report published by a the envelope manufacturers association. It's an economic study. And what they find is that your revenues have remained relatively stable at roughly 78 to $79 billion annually, but the controllable costs have continued to rise, increasing by billions of dollars over the past several years.
▶ 1:09:57And, um, I'm just they make a point that if you could reduce controllable costs by just 2% annually, you would eliminate your operating losses and reach a break even. And by 2030, that's basically when this report was done would have been about five years. How do you respond to that?
▶ 1:10:22>> I'll tell you, I, um, I've been a part of two of the largest logistics companies in the world for the last 20 some odd years, waste management and fedex, neither of them have been able to do that. Um, you know, everyone thinks, oh, it's easy, it's very easy. Just get productivity. The problem is you've got expenses rising. You've got to give employees pay increases. Fuel goes up.
▶ 1:10:47>> I'm going to interrupt you there because part of your increase in expenses has to do with the mandate to purchase next generation delivery vehicles, which is a euphemism for electric vehicles. And, and the, uh, the ones that you were. The post office is buying from oshkosh were like $20,000 more than, than your conventional vehicles. The ones you purchased from ford were 10,000.
▶ 1:11:13And you've got, uh, I know the federal government has allocated $3 billion in the so-called inflation reduction act for this, but your overall cost is going to be close to 10 billion. So how do you, when you're doing things like this, that that I can't make, uh, an economic case for this? >> well, look, you're going to hear me say this repeatedly and over and over again. If I'm in the private sector, I've got options.
▶ 1:11:42If I have 71% of my routes that are losing money, guess what I can do? Cut routes. If I have 80% of my stores that are losing money, you know what I can do? I can cut routes, I can raise prices, I can do all the things that I can do in the public sector. We don't have options. We have mandates. >> well, here's, here's where you could help us out to help you.
▶ 1:12:06I'd like for you to provide to the to the committee, the subcommittee, and we'll provide full committee a breakdown of where your revenues come from. Personal mail, business mail, you know, package delivery, advertising, junk mail, you know, business, political mail. >> marketing, mail, please, I. Well, I used to make that same mistake. I don't make it anymore. I call it revenue. >> okay, well, but but also, where's your cost tied into this?
▶ 1:12:35You know, you got a revenue stream from, from different types of delivery, but you've also got a cost. So I think that'd be helpful. I think the g of. >> course. Of course. But let's. >> help somewhat with that as well. But getting back to this, I know there's a lot of, uh, angst or anger about delivery. I mean, uh, my wife ordered a necklace and it went to, we live in birmingham.
▶ 1:13:01It went to birmingham, then it went to, to some place in florida, and then it went to orlando. And then it came back. What should have been three days was ten days. And then she didn't like the necklace, which is another issue. But what we're trying to do is get you where you can operate.
▶ 1:13:20But, uh, we and I, I'm going to talk with, with the chairman of the full committee about what legislation we might be able to introduce that will help deal with some of these mandates, for instance, the electric vehicle issues, but also your the management of the pension funds, these other things, rather than come in and give us these things, give us some ideas on legislatively how we can fix this, because I'm not interested in beating up the post office. I'm interested in fixing it. And if it can't be fixed and we need to, Mr.
▶ 1:13:52Chairman, we need to look at other options. >> yes, we'd love to have that conversation. >> uh, Mr. chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to to raise these questions. I yield back. >> I appreciate the chairman. Uh, I, I know we're all pressed on votes and a lot of things going on here, but in, in fact, that when I consume my time, you will hear where we think we have been doing this and have committed ourselves to some other things.
▶ 1:14:15But, uh, the success of that rain dance has not been achieved because the, the postmaster general has embarked on some things that he was hoping would alleviate some of these things or give him a longer term answer. And they that is still part of this discussion and part of why we're here today. Yes, sir. >> Mr.
▶ 1:14:36Chairman, I will make it clear that I would like for, uh, the postmaster general's office to provide that breakdown of the revenues so that we can juxtapose those against where the costs are. >> yes, sir. And I would respond back to the distinguished gentleman. Tell him we agree our working group is to get there. And, uh, last month we sat down with the postmaster general and his financial team, uh, and did agree to do exactly that.
▶ 1:15:03And this was going to be the first breakout session since that time. And I appreciate the gentleman. We'll be glad to share those with you. Yes, sir. Thank you very much. Uh, let's see, we now go to the, uh, Mr. frost. >> thank you so much, Mr. chair. >> you're recognized. >> thank you, Mr. chair. Thank you, Mr. maroney and postmaster general for being here. And also postmaster general, thank you for taking the time to sit with us.
▶ 1:15:32Um, in that briefing a few months ago, um, a couple topics I want to ask about. Um, the first one is something I'm a bit concerned about. So president trump has announced his plans to require postal workers to question residents on their citizenship status as part of a summer pilot test for the 2030 census. Um, an accurate census is the only way we can ensure fair and equal representation.
▶ 1:15:56It helps determine how congressional districts are drawn and make sure that federal funds reach communities. Postmaster general, how does the post how does the postal service plan to address the gap in expertise? If postal workers are expected to perform the duties as of census workers? >> yeah, it's, um, as you probably read, that's why we're doing two pilots, um, very small pilots. I think the total cost is around $200,000, probably a little less than that.
▶ 1:16:23Um, in one of the pilots, our folks will actually, uh, take the oath and be, uh, and do the census and the other, they'll do it as part of their postal duties. And it comes from the fact that everything that, um, my conversations with, with the secretary of commerce, everything that he's talked about with respect to the census is how do we do it better, cheaper.
▶ 1:16:46And he said the best way to do it better, cheaper is to get people to go that they trust, that are there every day that, you know, they probably know. So they're going to open the door so they don't have to go back five and six times. And so it's strictly a pilot to see if we can do it faster, better, cheaper. And if so, that will be a service to the american public. Um, again, it is a big, big, big undertaking. And so that's why we're doing the two pilots to see if we can, if we can make it work.
▶ 1:17:16>> and how will you ensure service delivery is not impacted if postal service postal workers have to balance their mail delivery duties with the administration of the census? >> yeah. I mean, look, that's why we're doing the pilots. Um, you know, actually it would be good for for the carriers because they can make a little bit of overtime. A lot of our carriers like to earn the overtime, but that's why we're doing it so that we can figure out how do we best make it work for our employees and for the census. Again, a long way before we actually get it done.
▶ 1:17:45That's why we're doing the pilots. Um, hopefully, hopefully we'll be able to do it faster, better, cheaper. >> thank you. Also, the postal service is implementing a new transportation plan. Um, this is the rto regional transportation optimization initiative, um, which may impact 72% of postal offices. Uh, the post postal service office of the inspector general has projected that this plan may slow mail delivery. People rely on usps to get mail quickly, medications, their ballots, bills, etc.
▶ 1:18:13Um, are you confident that you can ensure that the r t o initiative will not slow mail delivery? >> absolutely certain, because actually rto doesn't affect delivery, it only affects collection. So, uh, on delivery it's there's been absolutely no change. The only change that t o brings is on collection. >> okay. And then okay, gotcha.
▶ 1:18:37And then the last thing I want to talk about is, um, the fact that the usps is not a business opportunity. It provides essential services like helping rural americans get their prescriptions. Private carriers charge extra to deliver to rural areas, even if they deliver there at all. You were kind of talking about this at the options that private corporations may have that we don't have. And it's it's a good thing we don't have those options because no matter what, our postal workers are going to deliver the mail, no matter where you live.
▶ 1:19:05And that's part of what separates this service that we all, uh, believe in from a business. Um, rural areas are already losing their hospitals and pharmacies, and it's more important than ever that rural americans can get their medication from the usps. Mr. moroni, if the postal service was privatized, how would this impact people in my district or across the country? Um, how would how could that impact their day to day experience with usps? >> so it's definitely trade offs with privatization.
▶ 1:19:34It's possible they might be able to reduce costs and increase revenues faster, but that also means they might not serve certain routes that are unprofitable. They might close postal locations that are not profitable either to get to profitability. >> what are the kind of what type of americans, what type of people could expect? Maybe a loss in service? It was privatized. >> so there is a higher percentage of rural and small community locations that are unprofitable. So there are some urban areas as well that have unprofitable locations. But the bulk is going to be rural and small.
▶ 1:20:04So that's where it would disproportionately fall. >> okay. Thank you. I yield back. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. Gentleman yields back. We are now on votes. There are four votes that are being called. Uh I have advised the gentleman Mr. gill. He will be first one when we come back. Uh, and there will be these four votes that will take probably a good bit of time. We figure this one out before.
▶ 1:20:27Don't know if the rules in the mix, but let's, uh, advise the members that we will come back ten minutes after the last vote. I'd like to have members come back. This is a very important hearing. We have distinguished members who have taken their time to be here this afternoon. Mr. gill, you will be the first one when we return. And I would say to the witnesses and the people here, thank you for taking time. I'm sorry.
▶ 1:20:56This is the part of our business that we just have to go through. So the committee will now, uh, be in recess.
▶ 2:18:21Subcommittee to come to order. And thank you very much. Apologize for the delay. Uh, we now will go back with, uh, members opportunities for their questions. The gentleman from texas, Mr. gill, is recognized. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, for for holding this hearing. And thank you to postmaster general steiner and to Mr. maroney for for taking the time to be here. Uh, we certainly, uh, really appreciate it. Uh, Mr.
▶ 2:18:48Steiner, I want to begin with a few questions for you. Um, do you know how many of the drivers who haul mail for usps are using non-domiciled cdls? >> um, to my knowledge, at this point, none. >> do you know if it's a lot or just a few? >> uh, none. >> so. So what I'm from what I'm hearing from mail processing centers, there's been quite a few.
▶ 2:19:11In fact, I've heard from several large ones who have said something to the extent about half of the drivers who are coming to pick up mail are appear to be non-domiciled. Uh, that they typically don't even speak english. I've heard that over half of them don't speak english. Um, there's been suggestions that many of them are perhaps illegal aliens. Are you familiar with that? >> um, I'm not sure where that information comes from, but. >> it's coming from major mail processing facilities.
▶ 2:19:38>> that probably wouldn't surprise me, but, um, my guess is that. >> it wouldn't surprise you that there's a lot of drivers who are non-domiciled. >> no, it wouldn't surprise me that that's where the information is coming from. Because if you look at the information from our united states postal inspection service, which everybody that hauls for us has to go through a check with them. I think they've probably got better information. >> and what is that information.
▶ 2:20:02>> that every driver that drives for us, whether they're whether they're an employee or whether they're part of a third party contractor, has to go through and make sure that they are they are a domiciled cdl holder. >> is that being enforced? Because I've, I've been told by multiple different parties that that rule is not, in fact, being enforced in any meaningful way. >> I've been told by our postal service that it is. >> okay. Well, I've got, um, this is from a, a whistleblower, postal, uh, postal whistleblower.
▶ 2:20:31Um, here are multiple non-domiciled licenses from one hour of check ins at one usps facility. Uh, this was from march of 2026 that that's been recorded. >> yeah. If you'd send that on to us, I'll have our postal inspection service look at that and find out what happened.
▶ 2:20:48>> we've also got recording from pete rose, who's the vp of transportation strategy at usps, who has said, quote, we don't we didn't understand the magnitude of how many people are using non-domiciled cdl's suggesting that, uh, attempted to stop this practice, but realized that there are too many drivers who are using these non-domiciled cdl. So it wasn't, I guess, practicable to enforce that, uh, that that particular, uh, ruling. Are you familiar with that at all?
▶ 2:21:19>> not familiar at all. >> no. So, so it's your testimony that there are no no cdl driver or no mail carriers. Excuse me, who are non domiciled cdl drivers? >> no. My testimony is that I'm not aware of the conversation that you're referencing. >> okay. What are you guys doing to ensure that there are no non-domiciled cdl drivers carrying our mail? >> our postal inspection service looks at everybody that. >> how can you explain how that's being enforced? >> how do you mean? How is it being enforced?
▶ 2:21:49>> how are you ensuring that none of the. We are requiring non-domiciled. >> require our third party contractors. >> but by what? By what mechanism are you enforcing that other than a, you know, a theoretical requirement? >> you know, I don't know how you can do anything other than in person. Right? I mean, our folks are, um. >> our drivers required to use a post, uh, post badge. >> as far as I know they are. >> yes.
▶ 2:22:13And I've heard from multiple, um, multiple, again, uh, mail processing facilities, facilities who are telling me that none of that is being enforced in any meaningful way. And it seems based on. >> bring me that information, we'll make sure, we'll make sure it's. >> I'd be happy to do that because I don't think that that makes our roads any safer. >> no, you're absolutely right. And look, we all agree that safety is number one. But let's put it in perspective. You have 2000 deaths every year from gig drivers driving.
▶ 2:22:40Um, you've got other companies using them to deliver packages. Um, those folks are usps. >> is outsourcing that as well. >> um, not, we don't have any gig drivers for, for the united states postal. >> service, but the mail delivery or mail carriers, excuse me, are not necessarily usps employees. Is that correct? >> that is not correct. >> they're all they're all in. You don't outsource any of that. >> we do not. >> you don't outsource.
▶ 2:23:04So every single, uh, delivery truck that is carrying mail in the united states is a, is an employee of usps. >> that delivers to our customers. Absolutely. >> or that is transporting mail. >> oh, no, transporting mail is a whole different animal. >> that's what I'm. >> talking about. Delivery, I don't think I don't think drivers are transporting mail. They're transporting individual packages to customers. And there's 2000 people dying every year because they're going through the neighborhoods. >> we're concerned about. >> so let's put it in perspective. You're absolutely right.
▶ 2:23:34So let's put it in perspective. Um, 2000 people died because we had gig drivers that are probably unlicensed. They're probably uninsured, they're untrained, and they're killing people on not on the highways. They're killing people in neighborhoods. Go talk to to homeowner associations and ask about the people that are driving through the neighborhood, speeding through the neighborhood when their kids are playing to deliver a small package that should be delivered by the united states postal service.
▶ 2:24:04And so I completely agree with you on the cdl issue. Um, we've taken care of that. I'd like to see us look at taking care of the, of the, of the drivers that are, that are driving through our neighborhoods. >> thank you, Mr. general, I. >> appreciate you. >> gentlemen choose to yield back his time. Gentleman yields back his time. Thank you very much. Uh, we will now move to the gentlewoman. Miss randall, you're recognized. >> thank you so much, Mr.
▶ 2:24:35Chairman. I represent the olympic peninsula in washington state and in my district. Like I'm sure many across the country, we've seen how the closure of a single post office can disrupt an entire community. Folks rely on usps for service, for connection, for medication, for so much more. Um, last summer, the martin luther king junior post office in tacoma closed suddenly due to reported water damage.
▶ 2:25:01Since then, residents and small businesses that rely on dependable mail service have been concerned, left without clear answers about when it will reopen. Uh, when the tacoma city council raised this issue with our office, we followed up with usps, and we're told that the postal service was working with the landlord to assess the damage.
▶ 2:25:23My understanding now, based on updates from the city and the property owner, is that the roof repairs have been completed, and the next step is mold mitigation to be carried out by usps. But still, like confusion, no clear timelines for reopening the facility. For people who rely on the post office every day, this is more than just an inconvenience. It's an erosion of trust in a service that they rely on. Now, to be clear, like I want mold mitigation to happen in the building.
▶ 2:25:51I don't want employees to be working in a water damaged and moldy space. But Mr. steiner, when a postal facility closes due to damage, what timeline does usps follow for assessing damage, initiating repair contracts, and completing repairs? >> sure. Um, you know, obviously we'll look into that specific situation, but but you'll hear me say this a lot. Um, we're not proud that some of our post offices look like third world stores.
▶ 2:26:18We're not proud that we have 40 year old trucks going through neighborhoods. We're not proud that, that we can't give every single one of our wonderful carriers a brand new uniform. But we have to make trade offs. You know, we are running out of cash and we have to make trade offs.
▶ 2:26:40And, and so every day we need to make the determination, are we going to keep the cash to keep the mail being delivered? Or are we going to go fix a post office or buy a new truck? Um, it's why, it's why I'm here today. We would absolutely love to have pristine post offices throughout the united states. It is our face to our customers. We don't have the cash to do it. We would love to have brand new trucks driving through the neighborhood safely.
▶ 2:27:09We don't have the cash to do it. And so, you know, we'll look into that specific instance, obviously, and we'll get you some timelines on it. But but I think we do have to have that conversation of where are the trade offs, right? Um, where can we make those trade offs at a time when we'll be out of cash in less than 12 months? >> absolutely. And I wonder, this might be one of the trade offs that you're contemplating.
▶ 2:27:35What percentage of usps facilities are leased versus owned? And does a reliance on lease facilities make it harder to complete some of the maintenance and repairs that facilities may be facing? >> yeah. Um, I think the number is about 60%. A good portion are are leased rather than rather than owned. And, um, it's, you know, as we look at, at, you know, I keep saying that everything is on the table.
▶ 2:28:02Um, we have to look at those leases and see which ones we can keep, which ones we can't. Um, you know, and, and when we talk about trade offs, I like to look for cost free trade offs. So to take the example of your post office, um, our rural communities and our, our smaller communities, some of them might not have a, an urgent care facility or they might not have a bank.
▶ 2:28:24Can we co-locate with them and bring more than just the postal service to that community, bring an urgent care, bring a bank, bring the other needed things so that we can get lower cost of rent. And we can also bring other things to the community. Those are the type of, you know, I love cost free trade offs. Those are the kind of great cost free trade offs that we can get. Would love to look at doing one in your community. >> absolutely. And I'm really proud that our district office shares a building with a post office.
▶ 2:28:53It's a great way for folks to get all their business done when they come to visit us. Now, the last thing I want to raise is the politicization of, um, of the postal service in the way that it's being used to attack the ability for our neighbors to vote by mail. You know, my, my constituents have long relied on mail in voting. Um, you know, nearly two decades in washington state.
▶ 2:29:25And, um, with the continued attacks on mail in voting, I think one of the things that's being undermined is the trust in the postal service. And I'm out of time, but I, um, just wanted to raise that, um, our constituents are so grateful for the work of usps to ensure that you get our ballots to us and then back to the auditor's office so that they can be counted and, um, preserving the ability for usps to do that work is so important to the
▶ 2:29:56People of washington state and americans across the country. So thank you. >> absolutely. Thank you. >> gentleman yields back her time. Gentleman yields back your time. Thank you very much. Uh, the gentleman from tennessee, Mr. burkett, you're recognized. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. It's good to be here with you and the ranking member who are both, I guess, around when they had the pony express. So I guess y'all bringing some real experience. We're real world. >> both he and I knew abraham lincoln. >> that's good. >> well, um, Mr.
▶ 2:30:25Postmaster general, what's the most up to date assessment of when postal service run out of money? >> yeah, um, a lot of it depends, you know, we have a lot of obligations that we fulfill to the united states government, you know, for retirement and things like that. So a lot of it depends on, on, on those. As you probably know, we have been defaulting on a number of those for a number of years.
▶ 2:30:51Um, if we continue to make those payments, um, we're looking at probably october, november, if we stretch those out, we're looking at more like february. >> I agree with my colleagues that reducing, um, about reducing control costs. What are you doing to raise revenue? >> yeah. Um, you know, again, we need to, you got two different types of revenue, right? You've got the, what we call the market dominance side, what you would call mail and marketing mail.
▶ 2:31:20And then you've got the competitive side, which would be packages, um, you know, on the, on the market dominant side, I think, you know, that's been going down 5 to 7% compounded every year since probably we were born because of the internet and things like that. But, but I keep saying we can't, we can't think that that's a, a given. We've got to try to reimagine the mail. I've started to talk to our customers, how we can reimagine it, to stop that decline on the market dominant side.
▶ 2:31:45Um, that is something that we have to work with our customers through on the, on the package side, um, there's only three things that matter when you're in the package business speed, reliability and cost, speed, reliability and cost. We've always been competitive on cost. We haven't been competitive on speed and reliability. This past peak, we actually became very competitive on speed and reliability.
▶ 2:32:13So now we have something we can go to the market with, right? We can go to go to our customers or potential customers and say, we can do it just as well and cheaper than than other companies can do it. And then the other thing I would say, um, oddly enough, this was shocking to me. Um, we don't deliver all the packages for all the agencies of the united states government. We are part of the united states government. It's basically taking money from one pocket into the other pocket.
▶ 2:32:43Yet we don't do business for most of the united states government. So I want to talk about how we can get into all the various agencies in the federal government. >> I'd like to talk to you about that at some point. I don't want to run out of time, but I did want to.
▶ 2:32:58Um, one quick thing with the rising postage rates, slower service standard, declining productivity and request for additional congressional support, how do you justify the claim that the postal regulatory commission oversight is the problem, given its role as the primary check on postal pricing and performance? >> yeah, it's one of the problems. I mean, you know, you heard me talk about we have a lot of different mandates, but I won't I won't show you any further than their last order.
▶ 2:33:25Their last order, by their own admission, transfers anywhere from 700 million to $1 billion from us to mailers by not allowing us to raise prices. And what. >> was that figure again? >> 700 million to 1 billion. There's two pieces to it. They won't allow us to raise prices more than once. And they've basically changed the workshare rules, which are too complicated for here. Um, but it's basically taking money from us by their own admission, taking money from us, transferring it to mailers.
▶ 2:33:56They say they do it to balance. You know what I asked them if we're balancing things, answer me one question. Of all the companies that do business with us, how many of them are losing money? Okay, the answer zero. They're all making money. We're the only one losing money. I'm not sure how I see that as a balance. >> alright, I, I appreciate that. Could you have somebody come by my office maybe and talk to me about it? I don't want you to talk to the staff. I want you to come talk to me.
▶ 2:34:26>> I will, I will come talk to you personally. >> well, that'd be fine. I'd love to do it, I appreciate that. Also, I just wanted to pay a compliment. These folks out there, we moved out to off, and you wouldn't know it off emory road, but manorville highway, those folks out there, it's a little country type area. They're wonderful. They're just wonderful. And they always they take care of folks and they holler at them and they talk to them and it's and it's good. Holler at them. And that's a positive thing in the south.
▶ 2:34:49Um, and I used to have a burgeoning ebay business and um, go to the one on weisgerber and I can some of the fondest memories I had with my daddy were he was an old world war two veteran. And when daddy would come in there, they would always pull him out of a chair. I said, daddy, you just watch my packages. I gotta run back out to the truck. And because sometimes I might park a car in my front of my house and I'd, I'd, I'd sell it on ebay, the parts off of it. But daddy would just sit there and sometimes he'd go to sleep and they were.
▶ 2:35:19But the people there were just wonderful and I. I hope we don't lose that with the post office because we've lost that. You lost me, brother, because I was. >> absolutely right. And look, we can have an entrepreneur like you and the post office if you're selling those used parts, do what? >> say that again. >> we could use an entrepreneur like you in the post office when. >> you can't really do it, much as these ethics people get in my way, you know, want to do insider stock trading, go to congress. You want to sell something on ebay, you better get you an attorney if you're in congress. Thank you brother.
▶ 2:35:49Thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank you, ranking member, for always being a class act. >> gentleman yields back his time. Thank you very much. By the way, Mr. steiner. I think you'll enjoy the two and a half or three hours you spend with with Mr. burchett. He is a lot of fun and and covers a lot of ground very quickly. Uh, so I wholeheartedly encourage this endeavor between the two of you. Thank you very much. If you need help making that happen, tim, let me know. Uh, we now move to Mr. budinski. Miss budinski, you're recognized. >> thank you very much.
▶ 2:36:21>> excuse me. I'm sorry, miss taleb. I'm sorry. >> okay. >> through this. Wait till you turn 50. Excuse me, Mr. lee, you were on the subcommittee and you are recognized. >> thank you so much, chairman. Uh, thank you to the postmaster for being here. I want to show you a picture. Um, this is nicholas. Nicholas. John aker, um, on november 8th, uh, he was found dead at the usps detroit network distribution distribution center in allen park, michigan.
▶ 2:36:50You know, he was a postal worker. His body was found. Um, it was trapped actually in a mail handling machine, and he had been dead for about 6 to 8 hours before he was found. He checked in to work at 11 a.m. And his body wasn't discovered until the following day at 12:30 p.m. His death is unspeakable tragedy for his family, including his fiance. He had just recently got engaged for his colleagues and fellow postal workers, and for the entire southeastern michigan community.
▶ 2:37:20His death is heartbreaking, and it was preventable. Uh. Postmaster general nicholas had previously voiced concerns, um, about the facility's operations and safety practices, um, to his fiance. What you should know is those concerns were raised about safety measures and procedures at the facility and then how management there was pressuring staff to look for letters while the handling machine was still operating. Are you aware of that?
▶ 2:37:51>> um, I'm aware of the incident. Yes. >> are you aware that they're asking workers to look for letters while the machine is operating? >> um, we're still waiting on the on the final report from osha to, to understand what happened. >> since the death, a number of nicholas's coworkers and at the distribution center, it's gotten worse. The toxic work environment, dangerous culture. There has created ups. Usps management at the facility has just, you know, just increasing gotten worse. Um, prioritizing speed over safety.
▶ 2:38:20It's, you know, been over four months since nicholas death and representative dingell and I had written a letter directly to you, um, on two occasions demanding answers to get to the bottom of what happened to him and what usps leadership is doing to prevent this from ever happening again. You understand? He served our country. He didn't die at war. He didn't die. He literally died in his community working for the postal service.
▶ 2:38:46Now that you are here in person, perhaps you can give us some answers to it. Can you give me some inclination to tell his mom, by the way, both his parents. You don't understand how devastated their. They didn't expect to get that call again. Um, of him just showing up to work and again, um, the, even the circumstances around his death was pretty horrifying for his mother.
▶ 2:39:11Um, would you at least be willing to come to allen park, michigan to tour this place, come visit it, come down, uh, talk to the coworkers, tell tell his coworkers that you're working on making it much more safe, uh, for them to work in that space, will you at least acknowledge you be able to do that again? They deserve some acknowledgment from the post general about what happened at their facility.
▶ 2:39:37>> yeah, look, obviously, obviously a horrific incident that, um, you know, my heart, the heart of the whole postal family goes out to him and his family. But, you know, to me, safety is the most important thing we do. One incident is one incident too many. Um.
▶ 2:40:03Anytime you lose someone, uh, you've got to take it personal and you've got to take it as a teachable moment, right? Um, I ran a company where we went our safety numbers for, for just for went from 60 to 1, which was world class. And it wasn't because it wasn't because, um, one person took it, it's because everybody took it. And I will be at that facility. >> please come down. >> because, because we need to show that it starts at the top. Right? Absolutely.
▶ 2:40:32And, and any incident is too much of an incident. And if there's anything we can do to make that a teachable moment to save someone else, we. >> got to save some. >> I mean, will absolutely. >> be trapped in the machine, you know? Um, look, I know that nobody wanted this to happen to nicholas, but I just feel like, you know, osha hasn't responded to any of our requests. It's been months. And I, you know, chairman, please work with me.
▶ 2:40:56Um, in trying to get answers for his parents, it shouldn't have taken this long to get answers to this investigation of what happened to nicholas aker, especially serving almost a decade for in the military service and for him to die again in a postal service machine, a sorting machine, of all things. Um, again, his parents deserve answers, they deserve justice, and they don't want talking points, postmaster general. They they want one. Make sure there's justice and accountability and make sure it doesn't happen to anyone else.
▶ 2:41:25And look, I'm here to tell you, I hear a lot of the financial crisis that is facing the postmaster. I've been talking about public banking and postal service doing more in postal service. I'm a big advocate for it, trust me. But this is what I've been focused on right now. Because when you hug a mother that lost her child like that as a member of congress, I can't give her answers until you do your job. I yield. >> understood? >> gentleman.
▶ 2:41:53Gentleman yields back. I want to say to the gentleman that I have talked to our staff and they were aware of it. It, as the general has stated, is under osha investigation, and Mr. mfume and I will deal with this immediately and speed up not just a response, but an answer from them. And I want to thank you for bringing that forward.
▶ 2:42:24In general, thank you for your care and concern. There are a number of facts and factors about this, which I am not able to speak about, nor you to offer any insight into this, and I respect that. But I believe that his family is entitled to that answer. And Mr. mfume and I will be involved in that. General, you will see that we're working with you to encourage that properly and professionally. Done. Thank you very much.
▶ 2:42:53The, uh, gentleman from georgia is now recognized, Mr. jack. >> well. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. And I want to thank the postmaster general for testifying before us, another lsu graduate. It seems like you guys are taking over the united states congress, but I. >> never thought I'd get the chance to say go tigers in front of congress.
▶ 2:43:17>> but, um, I, I wanted to just first thank you for your service and ask, broadly speaking, as one of the last questioners today, um, you outlined in your opening testimony, the challenges you face as postmaster general, is there a version of usps future that does not require some form of congressional intervention in the coming years? And if so, what would that look like?
▶ 2:43:38>> uh, you know, I don't think there is, you know, I've done, um, tons of strategic plans across a number of, of businesses and I've never had a strategic plan where they say so many options are not available to you, right? You have losing routes can't cut them. You have losing postal post offices, can't cut them. You have retirement benefits that only earn t-bill rates. You can't invest it in in stocks.
▶ 2:44:05You know, you've there's just so many, so many strings. I tell people that, that this is like gulliver's travels. You know, gulliver was the giant in the land of the, of the small and um, one small person could not take him down, but they put so many strings on him that they were able to hold down the giant gulliver. And that's what's happening here. It's not one string. It's the it's the accumulation of all the strings. I think david spoke about them. It's it's the discussion we have to have.
▶ 2:44:35I keep coming back to we can do whatever you want. We can absolutely do whatever you want. You want six days a week. You want all the post offices open. We can do it. But someone's got to pay for it, right? When the postal service split in 1971, they actually put something in place that they called the postal service cost. And they said, we understand that it's going to cost a lot of money for you to serve rural communities. So we're going to pay you for that. And that that number then was $460 million.
▶ 2:45:05If you translate, they translate that to today's dollars. That's anywhere from 13 to $20 billion. So congress in 1971 understood that they're going to have to pay for the for the rural, for taking care of all the rural places that lose money and the routes that lose money. They totally understood it.
▶ 2:45:25You know, I would I would say that, um, either we, we reduce the mandates that we have upon us on delivery days, all the different things that I've talked about in my remarks. Or we acknowledge that there is a cost to the, you know, back what they called then the public service cost. There is a cost to that that congress is going to fund. Um, you know, to me, they're it's six one, half a dozen another. We can do it either way.
▶ 2:45:52Um, but recognize that all the mandates that we have cost money, uh, and that money precludes us, the business model precludes us from being profitable. And so either we have to get it through ratepayers paying it or through an appropriation from congress, we can do it either way. Um, and glad to have those conversations. >> well, thank you for that. Uh, I've got two local issues in my district want to highlight. I know we've been working diligently with your team.
▶ 2:46:18Um, I'm curious and if it necessitates further commentary or correspondence after this hearing, I welcome that. But, um, in tyrone, georgia, fayette county, my home county, there was a post office that burned down in march 2023, well before your time. I want to congratulate you. And in recent months, you were able to reopen at least the post office box elements of that facility. But retail, um, is still not operable. Um, I'm curious what y'all's protocols are.
▶ 2:46:42If you have a natural disaster that affects the post office and can we work together to try to reopen the retail as quickly as possible? >> yeah. Well, certainly, certainly follow up with you on that. >> and lastly, um, thomaston, georgia, also my district, you mentioned rural. You know, this is interesting. I think it does affect some more rural post offices that were built before the 1960s, before ada came into effect. And we do have some a lot of reports. And I want to commend the postal employees there.
▶ 2:47:10They're trying to help folks that are, um, you know, in need of, of getting upstairs, you know, have ramps. They're trying to help them get into the post office. But we just hear recurring problems there because the facility was built in the 30s, 1930s, I should say. Um, there hasn't been a lot of, uh, I guess, you know, legal requirements for them to update their facilities. Curious what you all do with some of those more rural post offices that don't have the ada requirements, but still service people that have ada? >> yeah.
▶ 2:47:38Again, you know, we have to go back to that trade off. Um, don't know the specific details, but we'll, we'll get back to you on it. But you know, it is interesting that you say that, um, when you talk about them helping people to get into the post office for every time we have someone that didn't get their birthday card on time, we have that great employee that gives that unbelievable customer service. It really is the face of the post, the face of the postal service.
▶ 2:48:02Um, that's what we can bring back if we figure out this business model, that's what we can bring back, I think everywhere is that unbelievable customer service that your folks experience when they go out of their way to go out and help them into a post office where it might be hard to get into it. >> I appreciate you working with us on both of those. Mr. chairman, I may have some questions to submit for the record hereafter, but I deeply appreciate you convening this hearing.
▶ 2:48:28It's a very, very important hearing, and it's a big deal for us to be a part of it. So thank you. >> thank you very much. We will look forward to not only getting your questions, but also hearing back from them. And thank you very much. The gentleman, miss walkinshaw. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you for suffering my presence again on this subcommittee. I have a couple of uc requests, if that's all right. >> with that, please feel free. >> to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record.
▶ 2:48:51On march 5th, 2026, letter signed by 66 members of congress, including 15 senators and 51 members of the house, urging the department of commerce to reverse course on a flawed 2026 census test. >> without objection. >> I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. A report released by the department of commerce ig on march 16th, 2026, evaluating the methodology employed by the bureau for the upcoming 2026 test involving postal service workers.
▶ 2:49:18It outlines the ig's concerns that the proposed approach could compromise readiness for the 2030 census. >> without objection. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. steiner, thank you for being with us today, and thank you for the conversation that we had and your open engagement with this subcommittee.
▶ 2:49:35Um, for congress to make informed decisions about how we can ensure the postal service's long term stability, we need clear data on the proposals you put forward, where the postal service stands and where it's headed. Uh, frankly, your your predecessor, in my view, was sometimes hostile towards our role in congressional oversight. Didn't want to provide information. We needed to be able to help the postal service.
▶ 2:50:05Um, will you agree to provide members of this committee with five year financial projections showing how the reforms and changes you've outlined, including the continued implementation of delivering for america, like including the regional transportation optimization initiative, would affect the service's financial position and service performance over five years. >> yes.
▶ 2:50:30And in fact, during the break, I was speaking with david about that, that that what I think we can put together because, you know, it's all the mandates that I talked about. We can put together multiple scenarios where you have different outcomes, right? And so, um, if you assume, you know, the 6 or 7 mandates that I've talked, there's probably 5 or 6 other ones, we'll make assumptions on which ones happen and which ones don't. And so we'll have multiple budgets for you to say, if you want this one, we can go this direction.
▶ 2:50:57If you still want this mandate, we can go this direction. We can actually put it together for you, that it will show the effect of all the different mandates that I've talked about and how that would affect the five year plan. >> because if we're going to build support for any of the proposals, including maybe the lower hanging fruit, like investing the retirement funds, we got to be able to go to our colleagues and say, this is where we're headed in a positive direction. >> absolutely.
▶ 2:51:22>> um, according to recent ig report, the postal service spent roughly $860 million in remedies due to failing to comply with respective cbas. So given that the challenge the postal service has had in complying with its own cbas that you all agreed to, you maybe will forgive my skepticism that you would be able to successfully take over and run the federal employees
▶ 2:51:54Compensation act and worker's comp programs as you provided. I'm a little bit skeptical of that, given the challenging track record. >> yeah, I don't blame you for the skepticism. Um, but the worker's comp would actually be managed by a third party. Um, you know, we manage obviously those, the claims you're talking about the worker's comp would actually be managed by a third party. >> so you would, you would outsource that? >> yeah. I mean, basically every company in america outsources that. Okay.
▶ 2:52:22>> um, I want to go to one of the maybe low hanging fruit reforms and you and I had a good conversation about the investment and I, I had an ounce of skepticism. And you relieve me of my skepticism, I think in our conversation. Can you talk through, though? Because obviously it's not as simple as saying you can invest the funds, right? There would have to be a structure in place to guide that.
▶ 2:52:47So especially the the workers and retirees have a voice in how their money's being invested, right? What kind of structure do you envision to accomplish that? >> yeah, I think you'd want to put obviously, you want to put a board of directors, if you will, in charge of that, really an investment committee. Um, I think I love the idea of having representatives of the employees be part of that. I think that's a great idea.
▶ 2:53:10Um, you know, the, the proposals I've seen would have, for example, the secretary of the treasury, you know, so you would have a broad based representative group to make those ultimate investment decisions. But then you could also have parameters to say, you know, you're not going to go out and invest in crypto or, I mean, you could set parameters and say, here are your allowed investments and make those rather conservative, right? Because we don't want to be out there gambling with our retirees money.
▶ 2:53:38And then you get an oversight board with broad based experience to, to manage that. >> okay. Thank you, Mr. chairman. Yield back. >> gentleman yields back his time. Mr. walker. Thank you very much. Uh, I would now yield myself. Oh. Excuse me. We did promise you would move forward. So miss and Mrs. budinski, you're now recognized. And thank you for taking time to be waved on to this. >> thank you for the opportunity. Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:54:05And to ranking member mfume, uh, for this chance. I do want to say it's also great to meet and be with postmaster general steiner and Mr. maroney. Thank you both for being here. Um, in fiscal year 2025, the postal service lost about $9 billion in the first quarter of fiscal year 2026. Usps lost an additional 1.4 billion.
▶ 2:54:33Postmaster general steiner, you have stated that you believe that the postal service is headed toward a financial crisis. And I do agree with you on that point. Um, but you've also said that you want to continue to move forward with the delivering for america plan, which has really only worsened delivery for the past six years. As we enter year six of the delivering for america plan.
▶ 2:54:55Um, I do remain concerned that the postal service seems committed to pushing forward with the plan, despite the steep declines in on time delivery and slowed outgoing mail in rural areas like the district that I represent in in central and southern illinois, just for example, in fiscal year 2019, the on time delivery for two day first class mail was 92%.
▶ 2:55:22Six years later, um, and this is in my district, it's down now to just 83% with areas like downstate illinois consistently seeing on time delivery fall below 80% and even 70% at various points in 2024 and 2025, I will argue.
▶ 2:55:39I think that's why I do believe that it is really important that we continue to have a strong postal regulatory commission and an inspector general to ensure that we have oversight over the postal service and its implementation for delivering for america. And I know you know, yes, it's true that the postal service, as you've stated, must act in accordance with the postal regulatory commission, but it ultimately does have much more flexibility for its competitive products, um, or packages.
▶ 2:56:09And I do worry just in talking about the prc is watering it down or eliminating it. Given the fiscal situation of the usps. Um, that maybe, perhaps it actually should have more authority, not less. Um, but with all of this in mind, I just want to say I'm, I'm very excited. We've started a bipartisan postal service caucus, and we do look forward to working with you on all of these challenges.
▶ 2:56:33Um, and one of my first questions for you, postmaster general, is in recent months, you've continued, as I stated, that you believe in continuing to move forward the delivering for america plan. Um, despite these declining delivery rates, my question would be, are there indicators that you are looking at, um, that would give you pause in the continued implementation of the delivering for america plan or decide to perhaps suspend it?
▶ 2:57:09>> yeah. And you know, I do want to clarify that, that when I think of the delivering for america plan, I'm talking just about the network transformation piece, right? Um, which I said before, you know, is, is sort of the logistics 101 hub and spoke system. Um, you know, what I do see is you see service numbers improving. Um, you see us pulling work hours out, not fast enough, but you see us pulling work hours out so you can see it, it moves slow because the network is so big. You can absolutely see it. You see it in the service numbers. You saw it during peak.
▶ 2:57:37We were the most improved company, um, in performance in peak of all the major competitive package companies. But um, you can also see it when you look, you are right dead in the center of the heart of where our biggest problem is right down the center of america, from chicago to saint louis to memphis. And, um, and I will tell you, um, I do not believe that that is a, a network problem.
▶ 2:58:03Um, my understanding is it's a staffing problem that it is hard to get employees to work in the plants where we need them to work. And, and, you know, we don't have a lot of flexibility to give bonuses to hire people or, or, or retention bonuses because of the way our union contracts work. Um, but that, that area, I can promise you is looked at by us, not just every week, every single day. Okay.
▶ 2:58:31And, and the numbers are getting better. Yeah, they absolutely are not are not there yet. >> just so I can squeeze in one more question, I agree, I'd love to keep working with you on that. And I do have concerns around the consolidations and the rto plan. And those are things that we can continue that conversation.
▶ 2:58:49But my last question, postmaster general, in regarding the postal service, recent hiring in the restructuring firm, hiring, the restructuring firm alvarez and marsal, the postal service has said that they are going to use alvarez and marsal to identify ways to transform the postal service and address the fiscal shortfall. So my question, should we be anticipating future reduction in force or more network changes? If alvarez and marcel were to amend that to your team? >> yeah, you know, look, what I've said is, is that we are in a crisis.
▶ 2:59:18And when you're in a crisis, everything has to be on the table. Um, alvarez and marsal is the, you know, the leading restructuring firm in the world. Um and so we wanted to bring in the best um, to show us what was possible. Uh, we haven't gotten that report, but, but once we get that report, we need to look at it and say, um, okay, what is it that we need to do in order to, you know, right.
▶ 2:59:41The ship in order to extend the period of time when, when, when you have less than 12 months of cash available, you've got to look at everything. And I wanted to bring in the best to help us look at it. >> okay. Look forward to working with you. Thank you. >> and glad to come. Come meet with you in person to have discussion about those, about those issues because they they are important. >> thank you. Thank you. I yield back. >> thank you very much. Gentleman yields back her time.
▶ 3:00:08I would now yield my such myself such time as I may consume. I first want to ask unanimous consent to address and add into the record the coalition to protect america's small sellers letter that has been provided to me, and secondly, a letter dated march 16th. Us postal service to ask congress for urgent reforms to survive, quote, beyond next year. Uh, without objection, we'll enter those in the record.
▶ 3:00:39The opportunity for us to be here together, publicly, uh, with, uh, vendors, people who work for the post office, people who have oversight over the post office, people who, um, uh, want an opportunity for the post office to work and work.
▶ 3:01:01Well, members of congress, almost every single one of us have people that, uh, sing your praises and some that think otherwise. It's a hard business. You're everywhere. Uh, I, too, have had a post office that burned down. I knew well, the neighborhood that felt like, uh, it took a little bit longer than than it should have, but it was accomplished. Uh, there were accommodations made.
▶ 3:01:26Every single member of congress somehow does hear something about the post office. Uh, sometimes. And I learned this in my prior life. Sometimes when things are going so great, you don't hear a lot, uh, the post office, however, is at a point that we all agree with. Mr. mfume, you and I agree with gao agrees with. We are at a, uh, crucial point. Not critical.
▶ 3:01:56We're crucial point where we now know more decisions need to be made with agreement. Agreement between us, agreement between you. I think that certainly this article that I provided, uh, says exactly that, that there has to be not just consent given, but agreement.
▶ 3:02:18Uh, I would like to say that during much of this period of time over the last year and some that we have been given an opportunity to know each other, work with each other. I find you refreshing. I find you honest, and I think we can do business with you, but it's going to take more than that. It's going to take Mr. mfume and I to stand behind an organization that is going to have to make some decisions.
▶ 3:02:44Also, we're going to have to make decisions because this represents a huge part of, of not just, uh, us enterprises across the united states, but the best interest of people who are normal american citizens who want, need and expect a good post office sound service, good price, uh, to where we will continue to use it.
▶ 3:03:09A few months ago, when you and I met, I told you that I had several goals. You told me pretty plainly, uh, congressman sessions will do whatever you want to pay for. And I told you, I did not want to raise the price. The price of the stamp.
▶ 3:03:29Further, I told you that I believe that, uh, we have to look at this organization as something that we need to get close on, keep in front of us and, and to have an idea about where we're going to go and how we're going to get there.
▶ 3:03:43Uh, I met with, uh, our friends at the white house to find out what instructions, uh, they really provided you also, because that's important when, when you go to offer a job to someone, you, you generally speaking, would want to get some, uh, understanding of that commitment to that. I think it is easy for when you get elected and when you take over a job than it is to serve in that job.
▶ 3:04:12And certainly a few months later, you learn some things that you may not have known. Uh, but the, the buck stops here now. And Mr. mfume, Mr. mfume and I are very open with each other. And I will say, I'm not trying to be a tough guy. We're going to do this together, but I will do this.
▶ 3:04:35And we are, uh, from our last meeting that we had over at your office, we had a determination that we were going to get closer. I told you at that time that I had a commitment from james comer, who's the chairman of the of the committee, that he felt like that this is something that could not be passed on, that it does us no good to simply, uh, give you more money or agree to something that we know does not work.
▶ 3:05:03I will fully admit to you that, uh, Mr. womack, who's sitting beside me, our staff, uh, guru on the post office, uh, has admitted to me, and I've admitted to him that we need to dig in further. We need to dig in. We need to do this. I think that your team, uh, openly agreed to do this a month ago. Uh. No excuses. We need to do this.
▶ 3:05:31We need to do it rapidly, and we need to get right to the issues. Uh, I think that it will require some give and take. Uh, we've generally been asking questions. We've generally been allowing you that opportunity to move forward with your plan. I think the newest indications that I have of, of knowing where we are, I think we're past that point now and we will get to where we agree and disagree. Uh, I am not responsible. I'm not your boss.
▶ 3:06:02I am your oversight. But Mr. mfume and I carry the torch about the results of what we're going to do from congress to help. And I think that Mr. mfume and I both have great confidence in the workers, the supervisors, the postmasters, the management of the organization. But we have to we're going to have to make tough decisions.
▶ 3:06:28So, uh, in fairness to you and your team, who I do have confidence in and who have been very gracious to not only Mr. mfume and I, we're going to get to where we then say, oh yeah, prove it. Uh oh, yeah. You think that will then I think we think differently. And, uh, it it is, it is a position that you find yourself in and I find myself in.
▶ 3:06:53And I have never been one to, uh, to play tiddledywinks. I'll go right to it. So I want you to know that today I am not going to put us through some of the bigger questions because as I told the staff, I'm not going to do that because you are under an obligation to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god.
▶ 3:07:20And that means that I could ask you questions about some things that may be in transit, some things that may be being worked on now, but when we're not with you under oath, uh, you and I are going to engage in that with Mr.
▶ 3:07:34And fumi, and we need to understand more about the same types of questions that have been brought up by our members, uh, by the hopes and expectations that come from both sides about the postal service, about its delivery system. And you have given us back enough impediments, the things which you do believe are in the way of you not only making a profit, but being successful.
▶ 3:08:00And so we're going to have to have, uh, more than just time with each other, uh, in an open mic like this. And so, uh, Mr. mfume has informed me that he will be pleased to participate in this effort. Uh, and I think that we owe it, uh, to the american people, but I know we owe it to the members of congress to address these issues. And it won't be about what we're doing with the burned down post office.
▶ 3:08:30It won't be about what we're doing on a route or two. It will be the financial integrity, the things that would allow you to serve people and to make changes that would be necessary to you. And so I want you to know that I've received the best wishes from a good number of people leading up to this, including people who work for the post office, including, uh, people who are in the industries that surround this, that have placed billions of dollars in all of our hands.
▶ 3:09:01It's in our best interest to make sure this works. And I have a commitment to this. I served on the last postal subcommittee that we had in congress. I came to that subcommittee because I had an interest in it. I had a great big rural district. I still have a great big rural district, and I care about everybody. So I do care about the service. I do care about your commitment.
▶ 3:09:29And I think I have sized you up as a person who's able to, uh, effectively work professionally through these issues. And you didn't cause them and I didn't cause them, but it's going to come down to the 3 or 4 of us are going to have to make some tough decisions that we can look at other people and say, that was a problem. The postmaster general laid it on our doorstep, and we're not going to kick the can down the road.
▶ 3:09:58We're going to put these directly in front of us, and then we're going to have to figure out how we're going to go to our colleagues and pull it off. But it does us no good to find that in one year from now, the postal service failed. It does us no good, in my opinion, to go to a dollar stamp, even though there might be some in this room that think that's the right answer. Uh, but we we're going to have to make tough decisions. We will help you through that.
▶ 3:10:26And I will know that I know you enough professionally where you have the moxie and the, the stuff about yourself of what you're made in, that you'll stick with us. I want to thank you and Mr. moroni for being here today. I want to thank your friends and allies who have gathered together to not only, uh, cheer you on, uh, but also others who have come here with the hope that the entire system works.
▶ 3:10:55And we're going to do that. So, Mr. mfume, would you like to defend yourself in this effort? >> uh, well, thank you. First of all, Mr. chairman. We, uh, as many of you know, we work well together because we put a goal in front of us and try to put politics to the side so that we're concerned about people and not politics.
▶ 3:11:20And the other p in all this is postal, the postal service, and why it gives us the kind of pride that we've had growing up in this country and the kind of personal relationships that we've all had with the post office. We all think it's our post office. Uh, and I think that's the way it was meant and intentioned, and that's the way it has been throughout the years.
▶ 3:11:43And so when you consider something is yours, you have an obligation, at least inherently to one, always try to protect it. Uh, and that has overcome the differences that we may have had on different things so that we're able to move forward together. Um, got a couple of ucs, Mr. chairman. And then just a final statement. Yes, sir. I would ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a statement from the president of the american postal workers union regarding today's hearing.
▶ 3:12:12And I would ask unanimous consent to enter into the record. A statement from the national president of the national postal mail handlers union regarding today's hearing. >> that objection. >> um, thank you, Mr. sessions. It was 1991 when the congress really stepped up to the plate and put in place a debt limit and an authority for the postal service. That was 35 years ago, and they set it at $15 billion.
▶ 3:12:42I have to tell you, I'm amazed that has not been revisited since then. That's a long, long time, 35 years. And so one thing that is clear about all of this is that we cannot let the united states postal service die, that we're going to have to find a way, as we all know, inevitably, to look at restructuring that debt limit, uh, how we do it and what the new limit becomes is going to be a matter of a lot of conversations and discussions.
▶ 3:13:09Uh, it may be hard to sell, but I think most people feel like I do that rather than do nothing and watch the titanic sink that we need to do something. Um, and I think without a doubt that many members of the congress are going to be particularly watching what Mr.
▶ 3:13:28Sessions and what I advocate, uh, because they recognize that there is, uh, no daylight between the two positions and hopefully that will get us to the point where we're able to deal with this debt crisis and debt limitation.
▶ 3:13:46However, having said that, uh, all other members of this house, all 433 are going to have a comment, a question and, uh, clearly are going to have some say in this because people just don't want to give their votes, even though they recognize that something is, is necessary.
▶ 3:14:04And so what comes out of that in terms of the concessions, if I can use that term, uh, or the guarantees, which I feel better about, uh, will be done collaboratively. Mr. postmaster general, I hope that you and your people, uh, are willing to be a part of that. Uh, Mr. moroni, I'm going to ask that the gsa also weigh in on all of this so that we feel like we're on stable ground to be able to answer the tough questions.
▶ 3:14:30And then I I'm going to ask for something that none of you came to this hearing for. And that is vision. What becomes then, after all, that, the vision of the united states postal service, that the american people who are watching this hearing and the members of congress who ultimately will have to grapple with the question of debt extension, what's the vision that that you want to put before them?
▶ 3:14:56And I don't want to try to answer that now, but I just want you to think about it, uh, because that's what we need here. Um, some clear vision that everybody in this country can get behind and to embrace and have signature on and to clearly feel like they are part of the solution going forward. So I would ask you to think about that again.
▶ 3:15:19I want to thank chairman sessions for his work and for our working relationship. And with hope, as I've said earlier, we've gone through this for a lot of years. We would hope that this is the beginning of the ultimate end of the ongoing crises that we have all witnessed far too long. Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I yield back. >> gentleman yields back his time. Thank you.
▶ 3:15:45And I will very succinctly tell the gentleman, and he's heard me say this many times, I believe us working together can accomplish this. And I'm talking about the postal service. I'm talking about some their vendors and people back and forth. I think the system, uh, is better when it works together. I think the system is better when it views each other as complementary to that system.
▶ 3:16:13I think that there are people that do certain things out of their own, either best interest or that's the way their, their, their, uh, route is, so to speak, went that there are things that you have as an advantage with the postal service that seemingly could be a disadvantage, but that we can turn into an advantage.
▶ 3:16:32But I think that when we try and, uh, move that needle too far one way or another, I think it works adversely against the best interest of the whole. So those are my comments that the gentleman has a philosophy also, and I will tell you that if you have viewed us as trying to be a part of the solution, then you may go home tonight and know that Mr.
▶ 3:16:59Mfume and I, and I believe the general is deeply committed that also, uh, we. Now I'm going to close the hearing. And so. Uh, with that and without objection, all members have five legislative days within which to submit materials and additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded first to us and then to the witnesses, if there's no further business.
▶ 3:17:28Without objection, this subcommittee stands adjourned.