▶ 0:21:36Committee will come to order. Today we continue our posture hearing with U.S. Come. We meet at a critical moment. Russia's brutal brutal invasion of Ukraine The U.S. military is actively degrading Iran's military capabilities and preventing the regime from acquiring a nuclear weapon. And the department remains laser-focused on defending the homeland and deterring Managing these threats simultaneously require a stronger NATO.
▶ 0:22:09thanks to the leadership of President Trump, our allies are beginning to step And their commitment to spend 5% of GDP on defense by 2035 shows they are serious about assuming greater for their own defense. But Europe's rearmament will take time. Fixing manpower shortages and restoring readiness will take time. Building out the transatlantic defense industrial base will take time.
▶ 0:22:37And developing our purchasing capabilities that today only the United States can provide will also take time. Yet despite this reality, some within the department are advocating for a premature and unwise reduction in U.S. forces in Europe and from NATO defense More troubling still, those same voices have not provided a credible roadmap for how such a transition would occur.
▶ 0:23:04Nor have they defined what {quote} critical but more limited {close quote} U.S. support actually means. That is not a strategy for a stronger, more credible NATO. It is a risk we should not take. That is why last year's NDAA mandates consultation with Congress before making any significant reductions in U.S. forces in Europe.
▶ 0:23:28Because the overwhelming bipartisan and bicameral assessment is that a premature drawdown would create a dangerous deterrence gap and invite further Russia Russian aggression. In particular, as Europe rearms, the two rotational U.S.
▶ 0:23:45armored brigades in Poland remain a cornerstone of NATO's conventional President Trump has been clear about the importance of maintaining that presence, even suggesting the United States could further bolster our posture there. He's right that those brigades must remain in And I believe it is past time that we should seriously consider permanently stationing them in Poland as well.
▶ 0:24:15those in the department advocating for a premature reduction of U.S. forces in Europe are also ignoring that our posture there is about as much is about much more than just Europe. It helps defend the homeland and forward it helps defend the homeland forward. And it gives the president more options to project combat power in other theaters, including CENTCOM, AFRICOM, and the Arctic. Operations like Midnight Hammer and now Epic Fury make that clear.
▶ 0:24:44Both are enabled by our presence in Europe and by the access, basing, and overflight permissions provided by our Just look at Romania. Romania is allowing the United States to use two of its bases to support operations in the Middle East. Think about that. Even after we withdrew a U.S. brigade last year, Romania continues to open its facilities to American forces. And they are not just providing access.
▶ 0:25:11Romania has invested over $2 billion to improve their bases and runways for American use. That's exactly the kind of ally we should be deepening our engagement with, not prematurely stepping away from. We also should not prematurely step away from Ukraine. It is in the U.S. interest that a strong, well-armed, and independent Ukraine emerges from this war.
▶ 0:25:34In fact, its innovative and battle-hardened forces are already degrading the threat Russia's military poses to Europe's conventional defense. Kyiv is also demonstrating that this partnership is not a one-way street. Ukraine counter-drone teams and technology are now helping to protect U.S. forces and partners in the Middle East from Iranian attacks.
▶ 0:25:57Russia, meanwhile, is doing the exact It is helping Iran refine its drone tactics and reportedly providing targeting intelligence to strike American troops. It is clear Putin is not only a liar liar and a war criminal, he is also not our friend. He is an adversary. The temporary easing of Russian energy sanctions must indeed be a temporary must indeed be temporary as Secretary Bissett has pledged.
▶ 0:26:27And if Putin continues to refuse to negotiate with President Trump in good faith, pressure on the Russian dictator must increase, through the additional sanctions now being considered by Congress. History has taught us this lesson again and again. Vladimir Putin interprets the lack of American resolve as an opportunity. We should not give him one. Neither should Ukraine, nor should NATO.
▶ 0:26:54With that, I yield to my friend the ranking member for any opening statement he may Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think this is an incredibly important and timely hearing. Um the issues around NATO, Ukraine, and our presence in Europe that you just outlined, I think are at a critical juncture. Because I believe in NATO. I believe in that partnership and alliance. I think most of this committee does. Most of this Congress does. And it [clears throat] is being challenged right now.
▶ 0:27:17And up front, I I want to deal with the argument that I fear some will make that the fact that Europe hasn't responded to Trump's request for help in Iran somehow indicates some sort of weakness in Europe. And that simply doesn't make any sense. I think there are some clear reasons why our European partners have not stepped into this conflict. One of the biggest is [clears throat] because they didn't want it in the first place.
▶ 0:27:42And the argument for why they didn't want it actually was best articulated by Donald Trump when he was campaigning for office, that there had been too many forever wars in the Middle East that had drained our resources without sufficient benefit. And it's worth remembering that in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and what we used to refer to as the global war on terror, our NATO allies stood with us, 100%.
▶ 0:28:06So if you question the value of the alliance from the standpoint of, you know, we've done everything for them, they've done nothing for us. I think I just inadvertently quoted a Rick Springfield song as a matter of fact. Um that's not what was happening. They stood by us. But in this instance, we all agreed that the wars in the Middle East were no longer a smart thing to do. They don't want to stumble into this war because they think it was a bad idea.
▶ 0:28:32And again, if you want to look at the arguments for why it was a bad idea, just pick any one of dozens of different speeches from Donald Trump when he was a candidate for office. So it's wrong to blame NATO for not stepping into something that they had said we shouldn't do, first of all. Second of all, we did not consult them at all about this war. We just did it and then expected them to follow. That's not how an alliance and a partnership is supposed to work.
▶ 0:29:00There's no plan, and that's not what NATO is going to sign up for. And this bleeds into the issue of the Strait of Hormuz. And what is it now that we are asking NATO to do? Open the Strait of Hormuz. How? No plans being presented. No ideas are being presented. I guess we just expect them to send ships down there and hope for the best. That's not how an alliance and a partnership is supposed to work. You're not going to build a strong alliance along those lines. You have to have reasonable requests.
▶ 0:29:30We're basically asking our NATO partners to set themselves on fire and jump off a cliff just because we asked them to, and then getting mad when they don't. But the final reason is most important, and it ties into Ukraine. It ties into our presence um in Europe that the chairman outlined quite well. And that is President Trump has made it very clear he has nothing but contempt for our NATO partners. He has insulted them, belittled them, threatened them with the use of force.
▶ 0:30:00So, and there's a lot of different things that could come out of that, but the one that is practical is all of those partners and allies have to wonder after they set themselves on fire and jump off a cliff without explanation, is the partnership even going to still exist? I mean, why go through all of that if the person you're doing it for is going to bail on you as soon as you're done? So, the rhetoric has to change. We have to make it clear that we support this alliance, or I guess we have to decide we don't and and walk away from it.
▶ 0:30:29And And both of our witnesses today, this is a really important thing, is to hear from you what is the value of this alliance? Is the US committed to it? Why? What do we expect to get out of it? And it's worth remembering that NATO has in fact been of a benefit to the US. And that gets back to my point that President Trump has a historically incorrect way of looking at NATO. He really believes, as he did that basically we have been suckers. We have done everything that they want. They haven't helped us at all.
▶ 0:30:59The NATO alliance led to the United States of America being the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world. All right? I think that was a substantial benefit to us. Yes, it also benefited Europe and NATO, but that's what a partnership is about, mutual benefit. And we got the mutual benefit out of that. I mean, originally we we did this, we provided the security umbrella for Europe because we wanted Europe after a thousand years of wars to stop. All right? To to figure out how to get along, and they did.
▶ 0:31:29And then also we wanted to protect them against the Soviet Union and protect us against the Soviet Union and be a deterrent. We didn't want Germany and France and all of the European nations to rebuild their military as they had done for so long before that. We provided the security blanket and we grew and prospered. And the final point on this is why? Well, because of values. And the values are basic, economic and political freedom in a rules-based international order instead of might makes right.
▶ 0:31:57Now, there's all kinds of messy details and all of that, but that's the general principle. We want greater economic freedom, greater political freedom, and we want to settle our differences peacefully through a system of rules instead of by going to war. That has worked for us. Eastern Europe is of course the best example. Um, you can see what Eastern Europe was under the Soviet Union and you can see what it has been since it has been part of the European Union and part of NATO, and you can see a better life for every single person living in Eastern Europe.
▶ 0:32:26That's what we're fighting for. And the real question is, do we still stand up for those values? Do we still believe in economic and political freedom? Or do we simply believe in bullying and coercion and might makes right? And I think it's a really important question, and Ukraine stands at the center of that. Ukraine, sovereign democratic country, was invaded by a brutal autocrat who wants to talk about free speech.
▶ 0:32:51My gosh, you know, Putin has suppressed free speech in Russia beyond the point where it's even even, you know, a meaningful phrase anymore. So, if we stand up for those values, we should stand up and support Ukraine. Definitely want to get an update from you on where you see that going. I want to make sure people know, for all of the distraction of what's going on in the Middle East, Ukraine is winning. And it is a remarkable accomplishment, another remarkable accomplishment, by the way, of NATO and our partnership and us working together to defend the basic freedoms of our country. We need to support Ukraine.
▶ 0:33:21If you want to end the war in Ukraine, then you have to stand up to Putin and convince him that fighting that war isn't going to accomplish his goals. I would prefer the rhetoric coming out of the White House to be supportive of Ukraine. I agree with the chairman. Yeah, Pres- President Putin is a known liar, and yet we have, you know, Mr. Witkoff, when asked, you know, gosh, is Russia providing targeting information uh to Iran? He said, well, the Russians told me they didn't, and I have to take them at their word. That is a deeply, deeply troubling sentiment.
▶ 0:33:51We've heard the president say the same thing. Wow, Putin said it, so it must be true. Those are not the values we should be projecting. We should be standing up for President Zelenskyy in Ukraine, not constantly rolling out the red carpet for Vladimir Putin. That is what will get us to greater peace in Europe and get us a sovereign democratic Ukraine, which is in the best interest of the US and Europe. On the European present presence, I agree with the chairman. He summed it up perfectly well. Nothing more to say on that.
▶ 0:34:17I think the presence is important for all the reasons that he stated and want to hear more about what our plans are going forward for that. Uh, with that I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank my friend, the ranking member. And now I'd like to introduce our witnesses. We have the honorable Daniel Zimmerman, who is the Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs, and General Alexus Grinkevich, who is the Commander of US European Command. Thank you both for being here. Mr. Zimmerman, you're recognized for an opening statement.
▶ 0:34:47Chairman Rogers, ranking member Smith, and distinguished members of this committee, thank you for the opportunity to uh, speak to you today about our defense approach to Europe. I'm Daniel Zimmerman, Assistant Secretary of War for International Security Affairs. I'm honored to appear before you alongside uh, General Grinkevich, uh, US EUCOM Commander.
▶ 0:35:07He has been an outstanding partner, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to say publicly how much I Today, I look forward to discussing the department's approach to Europe and how that nests within our National Defense Strategy, the NDS, specifically in the areas of homeland defense and burden-sharing with our European allies and partners. Distinguished committee members, the department is continually evaluating and adapting to the key threats facing the United States.
▶ 0:35:36In line with the National Security Strategy, the National Defense Strategy, NDS, calls for a courageous realignment of our resources and priorities to defend the freedom and interests of everyday citizens of the United States. It is an America first approach born out of the conviction that a government's first duty is to its citizens. The strategy outlines four succinct lines of effort, all grounded in the principle of peace through strength. First, defend the homeland.
▶ 0:36:06Second, deter China in the Indo-Pacific. Third, increase burden-sharing with our allies and partners, especially in those areas where they have direct national security interests of their own. And finally, to supercharge the US defense industrial base. This not only will equip the joint force, but it will help empower allies and partners, including those in Europe, to field combat-credible capabilities and take greater ownership of their own security needs.
▶ 0:36:34We call on our European allies to make a parallel effort for their own defense industrial base with a common-sense, non-exclusionary approach. While our focus today is Europe, let me offer a brief comment on events in the Middle East. And I would like first to pay tribute to the 13 fallen US warfighters who have given their lives in the line of duty, and I know we'd all want to honor them and their families.
▶ 0:36:59Operation Epic Fury is entering its 19th day, and the US remains on plan to dismantle Iran's ability to project power beyond its borders and threaten the interests of the US and our allies. Many allies from the Middle East and from Europe, who like us have have endured 47 years of Iranian terror and malevolence, are assisting these Operation Epic Fury has also underscored a key point in our National Defense and a point which Under Secretary Colby recently made
▶ 0:37:29at the NATO Defense Ministerial last month, the need for the US and our allies to be prepared for a potential for potential opponents across multiple theaters to act simultaneously. We do not consider this inevitable, but it is prudent to be ready for a worst-case scenario.
▶ 0:37:47With respect to Europe, we believe this reinforces the need for a reformed and revitalized NATO alliance with European allies stepping up to lead in terms of conventional defense and Let me be clear, the department is committed to NATO. We want to see it stronger. We believe the right way to achieve this is to return to NATO's founding purpose, to provide strong and credible defense for its members.
▶ 0:38:13Now, it's worth noting that in 1951, General Eisenhower, as NATO's first Supreme Allied Commander Europe, said that, and this is a quote, "If in 10 years all American troops stationed in Europe for national defense purposes have not been returned to the United States, then this whole NATO project will have failed." Now, I share those remarks to highlight that the original [clears throat] vision for NATO was built on each member's commitment to make serious investments in its own security and capacity to defend itself.
▶ 0:38:45We might call this a NATO 1.0. But after the fall of the USSR, we believe NATO, to some degree, lost sight of this mandate and got distracted with out-of-area operations, continent-wide disarmament, and other activities foreign to its original charter. And we can call this NATO 2.0. But it is now clear that this shift in mission focus is not fit to deal with the world as it is today, and therefore is neither in the interests of the United States nor our allies.
▶ 0:39:14We believe the alliance must adapt and remember its original purpose as a defensive military alliance focused on the European continent with European members stepping up to lead. And we in the department are referring to this as NATO 3.0. The US remains committed to NATO via our extended nuclear deterrent and critical but more limited operational support. But Europe must step up to assume primary responsibility for its own conventional defense.
▶ 0:39:40We have worked hard to communicate this goal through open and forthright dialogue as befits allies and Our allies must do more and rapidly, not as a favor to us, but for their own interests. We fundamentally believe that taking greater responsibility in this way is good for them as well as for us. Some have stepped up and are setting an example like Poland, Germany, and Finland to name a few. Such allies are making credible, expansive investments in their national and European defense.
▶ 0:40:10They are partners, not dependents. We aim to prioritize cooperation with those who share our sense of urgency to step up on defense, recognizing the threats Russia poses to our homeland and acutely to Eastern Europe. Turning to the war in Ukraine, as President Trump has stated, this war must come to an end.
▶ 0:40:30The administration has undertaken negotiations with both with the aim [clears throat] of securing a durable peace built on credible security guarantees that start with a strong Ukraine and a strong Europe. The United States believes in peace through strength and as the President has outlined through the Pearl Initiative, which he launched with NATO Secretary General Rauta last summer, it is important that allies act urgently to provide Ukraine necessary resources for credible deterrence and defense.
▶ 0:41:00Over 20 European nations have pledged more than $4 billion to this initiative so far. We continue to encourage allies and partners to sustain their contributions. Russia still retains deep reservoirs of military and industrial power and the national resolve to sustain protracted war.
▶ 0:41:19Moreover, Russia has the world's largest nuclear arsenal and invests in capabilities which could be used coercively just short of nuclear Accordingly, the National Defense Strategy notes we will ensure US forces can defend against these homeland And we call on Europe to step up to take primary responsibility for its own conventional defense against a potential Russian threat. As the President has said, the US stands with NATO.
▶ 0:41:47But if burden sharing becomes misaligned or thinly spread, this is not healthy for an alliance and we want NATO to be as strong as it can be for the long All allies must do their part, standing with us in commitment, action, and true We will continue to address threats to Europe with a clear-eyed peace through strength approach, standing by our commitments with our first duty to American citizens' interests and I'm honored to work with this committee, General Grinkevich
▶ 0:42:17and his US EUCOM team, and our valued allies and partners. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and may I now turn to General Grinkevich. Thank you, Mr. Zimmerman. General, you're now recognized. Chairman Rogers, Ranking Member Smith, and distinguished members of this committee, thanks for the opportunity to appear before you today. I'm joined by Command Sergeant Major T.J. Holland, our Command Senior Enlisted Leader, and together we represent the men and women of US European Command.
▶ 0:42:45I'm also privileged to be here with Secretary Daniel Zimmerman, whose leadership and collaboration have been instrumental to EUCOM's success. I'd like to begin by thanking this committee and Congress for your steadfast support to the warfighters and missions of US European Command. The United States faces a complex and evolving global security environment.
▶ 0:43:04Growing cooperation between Russia, North Korea, Iran, and the People's Republic of China has increased military risk across multiple theaters and In Europe, North Korean troops and material, Iranian drone technology, and Chinese economic support enable Moscow to sustain its war in Ukraine.
▶ 0:43:23I have been privileged to be part of the negotiations working to fulfill the President's goal of a lasting peace, but in the meantime, this brutal war continues, recently starting its fifth year as both sides trade human life for time and territory. And despite significant losses in Ukraine, Russia retains the capability and the capacity to threaten US interests with its large and increasingly diverse nuclear stockpile, asymmetric capabilities, and competent ground, air, and maritime forces.
▶ 0:43:53Given this environment, US European Command is focused on three priority The first of these is protecting the US homeland. To do this, US European Command works closely with NORAD and US Northern Command to monitor and secure the strategic approaches to North These approaches include the Arctic where rugged capabilities and platforms able to operate in this harsh environment allow the US and our allies to monitor and disrupt Russian and Chinese activity.
▶ 0:44:21Together, we ensure submarines and long-range bomber patrols are unable to threaten the US or our interests in our Our second mission area is to serve as a platform for projecting US combat power both in Europe and beyond.
▶ 0:44:35Given the continent's strategic geography, our forces, bases, and infrastructure, including pre-positioned stocks of equipment and munitions, allow the joint force to provide the President a diverse set of military options to rapidly respond to threats, move forces, and sustain operations across multiple In the past year alone, US European Command has increased pressure on the shadow fleet with the seizure of MV enabled strikes against the Iranian nuclear facilities during Operation Midnight Hammer, and facilitated strikes on ISIS-affiliated
▶ 0:45:06terror groups in This mission continues today with support of Operation Epic Fury in Iran. Our third mission area is positioning the NATO alliance to deter and defend. Given the possibility of simultaneous conflict in multiple theaters, a strong NATO allows the United States to redirect focus while still protecting our European interests. This requires allies to step up and they're doing just that.
▶ 0:45:30Allies are increasing defense spending and building their readiness to assume primary responsibility for the conventional defense of Europe. This shift requires continued investment in a robust and resilient defense industrial base that can deliver the required military capabilities at scale. One final note, as the character of war continues to evolve, US European Command is working directly with NATO allies, industry, and the joint force to capture the lessons of contemporary conflicts.
▶ 0:45:57We are committed to ensuring NATO remains most capable military alliance in history and to protecting our interests at home and abroad. Chairman Rogers, Ranking Member Smith, and distinguished members of the committee, thanks for your unwavering support to our warfighters and our mission. It's an honor to appear before you today and I look forward to your Thank you, General. I recognize myself first for questions. I will remind everybody on the committee and and and you that um we had this conversation with General Breedlove when he was here.
▶ 0:46:28This committee passes an NDAA once a year. The Congress decides the structure of the military. We understand y'all have operational control, but we decide what the structure will be. That's why we call these posture hearings so we can work with you in concert to decide what the posture should be for the next year. I'm still very upset that the Department decided to unilaterally change the posture in Europe without consulting with Congress.
▶ 0:46:58That we under NDAA law from the we passed last year cannot happen again, but it shouldn't have happened the first time and I just hope I want to see us work collaboratively in the future to make sure we meet our international Uh but with that, General, I I agree with the assessment you made before the Senate Armed Services Committee last week that it's going to take time for NATO to get to where they need to be.
▶ 0:47:22Uh how long do you assess it will take Europe to translate the additional defense spending that they've committed to into their being able to assume primary responsibility for their conventional defense? Chairman, I think thanks for the You know, there's a couple of things at play here. For the first time in a long time, money is not the problem in Europe. European allies are spending more and more of their budget. We have five or six allies who this year are going to exceed 5% in core defense spending.
▶ 0:47:50And so that's a good news story and several other economies are on their way through 3 to 3.5%. the real challenge is the production capacity in the defense industrial base and will capabilities be able to show up on time. So if I if I play this out and look forward, you know, we know what the money allies are spending today is being used to purchase and we know how long it will take for those capabilities to deliver.
▶ 0:48:12So there's several capabilities that will show up by the end of the decade and the the alliance the European members of the alliance and Canada will be in a much better position to assume responsibility for some of the things that the United States has historically provided, but they won't be able to do everything. You know, there's long lead items that will take about around a decade to procure.
▶ 0:48:30So the way I think about it is they'll be a lot better by 2035 than they are but in 2030, you know, and by 2035 I think they can assume most of the responsibilities and every every day between now and then they're going to get better and better and take on more of that burden. And that's assuming things go well. 2035. Yes, sir. Absolutely. It assumes that spending continues to remain at the levels and they execute the plans for that spending and it assumes that the industrial base is able to get into high gear as Secretary Zimmerman mentioned.
▶ 0:49:01Bring it back to our current posture. Would you recommend any additional changes to our force posture in Europe at this time? Chairman, I am not currently recommending any additional changes to our posture in Europe. Uh as Europe re-arms, how important are those two rotational US armored brigades in Poland to NATO's deterrence and defense Chairman, the the two armored brigade combat teams that we have in Europe are are essential to our current deterrence
▶ 0:49:32I also would say they provide us a way to ensure allies are more rapidly able to assume the burden. So, we can take different elements of those brigades and now deploy them as allies are bringing on their own armored capabilities to help them develop their armored capabilities, onboard them into their military such as Romania buying M1 Abrams tanks as an example. And the faster we can get them up to speed on employing those tanks, the more they can assume that burden and the quicker. So, in the short term they're they're essential. Great.
▶ 0:50:01Uh there have been numerous studies that have found that permanently stationing US brigades in Poland would reduce cost, improve service members quality of life, strengthen deterrence against Russia. Poland is willing to pay for any additional expense associated with that Uh could you tell us your best military judgment as to whether or not the United States should permanently station two its two armored brigades in Chairman, there's there's a lot of advantages to permanently station forces.
▶ 0:50:29Uh you know, that's a it's a signal of of permanent commitment if you Soldiers, of course, if you ask them would much rather be with their families than away from their families on a And you get more experience and presence within a particular unit based on the pattern of rotation than you do with rotational forces. Having said that, there there's also value to rotational forces. Those are able to move rapidly.
▶ 0:50:52We we don't you know, you have the luxury of not having to worry about how you employ that force given family considerations because the family's not there. They're back in the United States. So, there's costs and benefits to to both, but certainly I value permanently rotate forces recognizing it's got to be balanced against other parties within the
▶ 0:51:12How important is it for the army to fully fund two preposition stock sets for the US armored brigades? Chairman, the thing that preposition stocks do for us is is really contribute to deterrence and they give a diverse range of options to the president in the event of of a crisis. It increases our response time. We don't have to put equipment on ships and sail it across the ocean. And so, there's just much more flexibility in our response, much more rapidity in our response. And I I see that as a strong pillar of our deterrence. Thank you. I yield to the ranking member.
▶ 0:51:44I thank thank you, Mr. Chairman. Following up on the European presence if we did not have troops in Europe, if that alliance was was gone, we didn't have that presence, how would that have impacted what we've been able to do in Iran in the last two and a half weeks, putting aside for the moment whether you support the mission or not? How did that presence in Europe help and what would it be like if we didn't have it in a similar fight?
▶ 0:52:13Uh ranking member, the the things that US European Command has been able to do is leverage our network of bases and infrastructure in order to support operations in the Middle East. And so, if we you know, if we didn't have forces in Europe, we we wouldn't have the bases that we're able to project power into the Middle East with. So, it's it's really the the access that our allies provide, the ability to overfly their countries, the ability to operate from their countries. And and many of them are helping in substantial ways in this.
▶ 0:52:41Yeah, so NATO is definitely helping in in what what we're doing here in in our presence if if nothing else. I mean, basically we couldn't bring them all the way from from the United States. That would be a much tougher lift. Yeah, ranking member, the the easiest way to think about it is tanker basing, right? We to to fly bombers from the United States or or even from from locations in the theater and project power into the Middle East requires requires a tanker bridge. That tanker bridge is projected from US EUCOM bases. Yeah. So, so Mr.
▶ 0:53:10Zimmerman, the president has a number of times mused out loud about leaving NATO and whether or not it is truly helpful to us. Yesterday just yesterday as a matter of fact. So, first part of the question is do we are we thinking about leaving NATO or are we committed to the alliance?
▶ 0:53:29And I guess the follow-up would be if we are committed to the alliance, why does the president keep saying publicly that we Ranking member, I I won't speak for the president, but I will point out that
▶ 0:53:41You do speak for the president. That's why you're here. But but go ahead. Ranking member, I'll point out that the president has many times expressed the the United States commitment to NATO. It's particularly coming out of the Hague summit where the NATO members stepped up to his historic challenge to reach 5%.
▶ 0:53:59but I'm focused on it's like if you were in a relationship and you're like, "Well, just yesterday I told you I'm committed to the relationship. So, what if now today I'm telling you that I'm not?" That wouldn't be particularly reassuring. So, I'm more focused on the times that he seems compelled to talk about how bad the alliance is for us and his desire to get out of it.
▶ 0:54:18But so, you testifying now as whatever your title we are committed in your view despite what the president has said to the NATO Uh the the president, the secretary have repeatedly said committed to NATO, committed to Article 5.
▶ 0:54:34That is that is a consistent with wanting to see that alliance be the best How does it impact the strength of that alliance for the president to keep saying he wants to walk away from it, to keep threatening and belittling our allies, threatening to make Canada the 51st state, threatening to invade Greenland and take it away from Denmark? How does that impact the strength of that alliance in your view?
▶ 0:55:03The president rightly expects our NATO allies to carry their share of the load. Right now And if they don't, we have the right to annex them? Is that the message? May I mention that US US defense spending right now is a 60% of overall NATO defense
▶ 0:55:22As a percentage of GDP, do you know who US defense spending is equal to? Denmark. 3.22. Thanks to Joe Courtney for providing me with that chart. So, that's not really an answer. If we believe in the alliance, we should support that alliance and quit bullying and degrading it. It really undermines the ability of that that alliance to be as strong as it should be.
▶ 0:55:48So, I guess going forward again, I just want to make sure from your perspective, you think it would not be good for US national security if we undermine or abandon the NATO alliance. Chairman, we think the increased investment that NATO allies are making into the alliance is a positive thing. And just a few years ago, no That's not what I asked exactly. I'm saying this shouldn't be a problem for you. Are are we committed to the NATO alliance or aren't we?
▶ 0:56:17Well, I I I already answered that question. I'll answer it again. We are. Okay.
▶ 0:56:21Just a few years ago, no one could imagine NATO countries going above 2% of spending. Thanks to the president's leadership, we now have commitments across the alliance
▶ 0:56:30say that's thanks to Russia invading Ukraine and that that was really what got Europe's attention, not the bullying and belittling from the president, but we can argue that point. I just wanted to make sure that we remain committed to the NATO alliance because despite what we've heard from the White House, I think it is an incredibly beneficial thing for the United States of America. And I thank you for those answers. I yield back. Chairman, I recognize the gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I thank both of you for your service.
▶ 0:56:59And it I'm really grateful. I hope you see there's substantial bipartisanship here, particularly support of NATO and how important NATO is and has been as a defensive organization to provide for the longest period of peace and prosperity in Europe and since civilization began. Keeping that in mind, too, I'm so grateful for the leadership of Chairman Rogers.
▶ 0:57:24Indeed, we need to have permanent placement of American military personnel in Poland, which they will pay for in the tradition of South Korea, in the tradition of Qatar. And so, over and over again, this this can be important and indeed his chagrin all of us, most of us, in regard to how important it is to have a military presence in Romania and then to indeed back up Ukraine to win their resistance as they're facing war
▶ 0:57:54criminal Putin who is trying to resurrect the failed Soviet Union. It's so clear. The virtual annexation of Belarus, the subverting of the elections in the Republic of Georgia, the attempt to subvert elections in Moldova. Over and over again, it's so clear that we need to be prepared to face the challenges we have.
▶ 0:58:15Additionally, Secretary Zimmerman, reports are clear that Russia is providing intelligence support to Iran that can assist Iran in targeting American forces and assets in the region, which then also provides drone technology to murder American troops as we've seen occur in the last two weeks. War criminal Putin is helping regime that is actively threatening American service members.
▶ 0:58:42And actually, I want to submit an article from yesterday's on Wall Street Journal, Russia is sharing satellite imagery and drone technology with Iran. This is so crystal clear the intent that war criminal Putin has to continue this war to benefit his country. With this, I'd like to submit this for the record.
▶ 0:59:03Without objection. How is the department responding to the growing cooperation between war criminal Putin and the regime in Tehran? Uh thank thank you, Congressman. We are aware of those of those reports. And perhaps in the close session, I can speak more to them.
▶ 0:59:24But force protection for US service members is an utmost priority for our Well, as I grateful parent who had my oldest son Allen served for a year in Iraq and my second son served as a Navy doctor in Baghdad. My third son served rice or in Egypt and my youngest a year in Afghanistan.
▶ 0:59:46Uh hey, American families are take very personally that Russian satellite technology being provided to kill American service and this should be a crucial priority. Additionally, you cited negotiations with war criminal Putin to end the conflict, the Putin invasion of Ukraine.
▶ 1:00:09Can you identify any agreement with the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation or war criminal Putin that has not been And we need to know and it's clear Putin lies as President Trump has correctly stated that he speaks lovely in the morning and bombs in the evening.
▶ 1:00:32the negotiating team is taking the approach of backing any agreement with credible security provisions. Starting with strong followed by strong Europe, followed by a framework of US security guarantees that General Grinkevich can speak more to. But just to underscore we are in a trust but verify type of It is going to have to be the ultimate verification.
▶ 1:01:01And additionally, we have Chinese Mr. Secretary influence and as we have the different issues to fix around the world. And in particular, it's frustrating that in Europe that in Hungary itself, there've been more Chinese Communist Party investments in Europe that has had an effect on the Orban regime to be supportive of war criminal Putin. There's more Chinese investments in Hungary than all of the rest of Europe combined.
▶ 1:01:29What are we doing to counteract the Chinese Communist Party influence in Europe? Congressman, we we certainly talked to the Europeans about this and share information with them and I think that's a interagency effort. And I think the good news is that European allies are increasingly waking up to the seriousness of the situation and are taking their steps on their own to to address it. Thank you very much. I yield back.
▶ 1:02:00Chair now recognizes gentleman from Connecticut, Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Zimmerman, yeah,
▶ 1:02:11Yesterday on Truth Social, the President posted the following. We no longer need or desire NATO countries assistance. We never did. Speaking as the President of the United States of America, by far the most powerful country in the world, we do not need the help of anyone. In full This was yesterday. Okay, so to follow up with Mr.
▶ 1:02:33Smith's comments, I mean, it's no wonder that our NATO allies really are wondering whether or not this country is committed to the alliance. On February 21st, we needed NATO's help and General probably recalls this. We had a distress signal from a US submarine 8 miles off the coast of Greenland where a sailor experiencing a medical emergency.
▶ 1:03:00Luckily, there was a Danish military patrol ship that was nearby and flew a Seahawk helicopter to the the submarine and and evacuated that sailor to Greenland where again received medical attention. All part of the NATO alliance. Again, the President now is saying that Greenland is now part of Northcom, not Eucom.
▶ 1:03:21The fact of the matter is and we all know this that that submarine was on patrol as part of our nuclear deterrence mission, which again the General mentioned is essential to homeland defense and is part of NATO's Denmark, as Mr. Smith correctly pointed out, is now at a point where their percentage of GDP spending on defense, according to the Atlantic Council, which has a NATO defense spending tracking system, is equal to to the United States.
▶ 1:03:49So, in response to that, the the White House put out in in on February 21st this bizarre AI generated post that showed USNS cruising its way to Greenland to provide help. Of course, it was took basically minutes for people to figure out that the USNS Mercy was in dry dock.
▶ 1:04:11And again, once again made our country either just a laughingstock or again clearly insulting one of our neighbors. So, I'm going to ask you to to do something which has not happened yet and I've been tracking this pretty closely.
▶ 1:04:27Can you publicly thank Denmark for the assistance they provided to a US sailor experiencing a medical emergency on and again because of their assistance, which we did not have resources address that need.
▶ 1:04:46Congressman, I frankly I I wasn't tracking the details of that particular story, but as you outline it, I would thank any country who came to the assistance of US And again, you know, clearly that has been the first time that's been articulated either that I'm aware of in terms of the White House, the Department of Defense or any of our military and naval leadership.
▶ 1:05:12But again, it was a perfect example of NATO at work, which is because we had a NATO ally, you know, in the region and we have a defense arrangement so that people could act quickly to respond to a situation like that. There was no diplomatic gymnastics that anybody had to go through. They just did it. They just acted as a good ally would in terms of making sure that that situation was addressed.
▶ 1:05:36So, General, again in your remarks, you talked about the nuclear deterrence mission that NATO conducts, which again is part of our homeland defense, which again starts, I think as you know, up in Norway at Kola Peninsula. And again, our ally Norway has our eyes and ears in terms of the North Fleet, the Russian North Fleet. They again have their nuclear stockpile 100 miles from the border.
▶ 1:05:59Again, the it daisy chains down through the GIUK gap, Greenland UK gap, where the UK provides assistance, Denmark provides assistance, France provides assistance, Iceland provides assistance, Canada provides assistance. And again, it is really not because they're doing it to necessarily protect their own country. The Russian North Fleet, they're coming to the Atlantic coast of this of the US and they're in the Severodvinsk submarines are doing patrols there. I mean, that's how it works, right?
▶ 1:06:29In terms of the NATO anti-submarine warfare operations. Congressman, we work extremely closely with all of those allies that you mentioned to monitor Russian activity in the high north and particularly as it comes down between Greenland, Iceland and the United Kingdom and Norway. Again, just to yesterday General Guiao I identified Russia's capability in terms of this particular threat as the number one threat facing the homeland today.
▶ 1:06:59And without NATO, we would not be in my opinion able or equipped to track and respond to it. With that, I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Turner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. [clears throat] Chairman, first of all, I want to thank you in your opening comments for acknowledging that every administration since the inception of the Washington Treaty have called upon our European allies to contribute more.
▶ 1:07:25And for your acknowledging during your comments to questions that President Trump was the most successful since the Wales Summit for getting our allies to rise to the occasion to actually reach [clears throat] and stretch toward their voluntary commitment to go to the 2% contributions that they had committed to at the at the Wales Summit for the Wales agreement and that they have now agreed to go beyond that to the the 5% contribution.
▶ 1:07:56These are important contributions that I think will make a huge difference for both our our allies in NATO and for NATO's own functions and and its defense. Now, as we look to the um
▶ 1:08:12the National Defense Strategy, questioning to both of you. Mr. Zimmerman and General, is looking at the National Defense Strategy, Russia is identified in the National Defense Strategy as an adversary to the United States. Correct, Mr. Zimmerman? That Russia is an adversary of the United States. they they have the capabilities, they have the they they pose a threat It's pretty straightforward.
▶ 1:08:40Can you articulate that Russia is an adversary of the United States, Mr. Zimmerman? As an adversary of the United States, is it in the best interest of the United States that Russia lose and is unsuccessful in the war of aggression against Ukraine, Mr. Zimmerman? What the administration is trying to achieve is an end to that war on terms that support an enduring peace.
▶ 1:09:07Is it in the best interest of the United States that Russia is unsuccessful in the aggression against the war of aggression against Ukraine? Congressman, I think I think the way you frame it, I would I would agree with that. If being successful means an over Congressman, it's it's not my role to determine the national interest in this way. That's definitely a policy question. Uh so I'll I'll defer to my policy team.
▶ 1:09:37it it seems to me that in your testimony today that both of you though did acknowledge that NATO is important in supporting the United States interest in deterring Russian aggression against United States interests. Mr. Zimmerman? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Absolutely. I want to follow on to what the ranking member was saying earlier. General, in your written
▶ 1:10:02on page you go into the importance of our in Europe. And the ranking member was speaking of our abilities both in the current conflict with Iran, but also in Midnight Hammer to be able to project power and force, but I'd like you to extrapolate that a little bit further. Because our presence in Europe is really beyond that.
▶ 1:10:32It's part of our worldwide ability to project force. From Europe, it's our forces are integrated both in our communications, in our sensing capabilities, and our ability to look at all of our in our functions in Indo-Pacom, and our functions in even South America when we look at even our Venezuela operations.
▶ 1:10:56The integration of all of our bases and including the functions that we do day-to-day in Europe your forces are integrated are at play. And I'd like you to articulate that because when people speak of forces not being in Europe, we would be really shields down in many respects. And could you articulate that worldwide presence not just Middle East? Yeah, Congressman, you bet.
▶ 1:11:24So I the infrastructure that we have in the continent of Europe and that's been built up over the decades that we've been there is critical to our global communications and our ability to command and control forces around the world. It's as you mentioned critical to our sensing, our intelligence apparatus around the world. Sustainment and logistics would be the other area that I'd highlight. And no one does the sustainment and logistics and power projection like you
▶ 1:11:47So even from Europe we can determine what for example even China is doing in Indo-Pacom, what Russia is doing in Indo-Pacom, what Russia is doing that affects South America and Venezuela, what China is doing in South America. All of this is still being conducted and is essential even with our presence in Europe. Yeah, Congressman, the way I'd say it is this is all interconnected and it requires a global approach. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank the gentleman. Chair now recognizes gentleman from California, Mr. Garamendi.
▶ 1:12:18Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And want to thank my colleagues for a series of I think very important questions. getting to the heart of the matter, what is the principal threat to Europe? Uh Congressman, the principal threat to European security is the Russian Mr. Zimmerman? I concur with that, Congressman. Okay. Now, Mr.
▶ 1:12:46Zimmerman, if that if Russia is the principal threat to Europe is Russia also the principal threat to the United States because of its threat to Europe? Mr. Uh Congressman, I think that is a multifaceted question. I don't know that we Russia is a serious threat and our national defense strategy uh plays that out in clear terms.
▶ 1:13:19Uh Congressman, from my previous time on the Joint Staff with a global perspective, I think the the thing that I am most concerned about is the interaction of our adversaries as they start to collaborate and and work against us in their common interest and contrary to ours. And so Russia certainly contributes to that. China, North Korea, and Iran do as well. It's all interconnected. So General, what is the best strategy address that threat?
▶ 1:13:48Is it a strong presence of the United States in Europe together with NATO or is there some other strategy that would address that threat? Congressman, I think you know, in the in the short term, nothing deters Russia like an American flag on a on a uniform. You know, we are the best military in the world, we're the strongest military in the world. The Russians and everyone else, every adversary on this planet knows that.
▶ 1:14:16So we certainly play a role in that. Over time as the Europeans get stronger and better, that will allow us to move some of those American flags to other places. And and we do need Europe to be stronger to assist with their own defense so that we can do that. Now, moving to the Ukraine situation. The United States is not Is the United States presently providing direct to Ukraine? Mr. Zimmerman?
▶ 1:14:44Congressman, the Pearl Initiative which the President announced with Secretary General Rutte is a is a way that US equipment which is you know, the best of the world can offer can be provided to Ukraine with European compensatory funds.
▶ 1:15:00So the answer to the question is the United States Is the United States providing direct support to Ukraine? And I think you just said no. It goes through the European countries. Is that Well, they they provide compensatory funds. The The material goes goes to Ukraine through the Pearl Initiative. So why is the United States not providing direct support?
▶ 1:15:29Why is the United States using Europe as a front for our support? The The reason the President announced Pearl with again, I would just I would say the support of NATO Secretary General Rutte was out of a recognition that Europeans ought to be at the front in providing the support to And so that is the concept behind the the Pearl Initiative.
▶ 1:15:57It doesn't exclude um other means the United States may choose to support. But that is that is that is the method that the President and support goes to the European countries who then transmit that support or transfer that support to Ukraine. I I think Congressman, the the logistics don't don't have to work to work that way.
▶ 1:16:25And if I may, maybe I'll ask General Green to weigh in here because he's intimately acquainted with the
▶ 1:16:32Yeah, Congressman, the the way it works is we package or or create those Pearl packages at a half billion dollars a piece. We then work with US NATO to shop those packages around and with the Secretary General for European nations to purchase it.
▶ 1:16:47Once a European nation commits the funds, those are transferred through the NATO logistics hubs to We have Have we transferred direct military equipment out of the theater for Iran war? Uh Congressman, we have and I'd be happy to provide you details on that in the classified session. I yield back.
▶ 1:17:18Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us today. Uh General Green, I want to follow up with the conversation we had last week and that is about our NATO allies and what they're doing in burden sharing, but also what the US defense industrial base is able to supply. And let's not wholeheartedly agree that our NATO allies should be contributing more and that they have to play a greater role in defending the continent.
▶ 1:17:47That's that's key. I think countries like Germany doing more, Poland, the Baltics all doing more. And that's absolutely the challenge is is our ability to supply them with US weapons and US equipment in order for them to do more because we want to be able to interoperate with them.
▶ 1:18:06We want them to have the equipment that we have because we know it's advanced and we know too that if the time comes, we want to make sure that their interoperability is The challenge is you know, I don't think it's well advised for us to step back prematurely from what we're doing to try to back our allies there.
▶ 1:18:25Tell me, what are you hearing from our US allies there in Europe about not being able to get the things that they need, about where the US industrial base is in supplying them the things that many of them have already ordered, that are on back order and being told hey, the priority is elsewhere. And probably is the priority continues to get pushed to the right so that [snorts] day of delivery sometimes never comes. So give me your perspective on what you're hearing from our allies. Yeah, Congressman, it's it's an important question.
▶ 1:18:52You know, not just in this position I'm in today, but in previous positions in the Middle East and elsewhere, there was a constant refrain of our foreign military sales system, our FMS system, delivering too late to need with cost increases and just a really burdensome bureaucracy.
▶ 1:19:08To that end, the the President This has the President's attention and the America First Arms Transfer Strategy I think is going to be a big step forward to allow more direct commercial sales that'll bypass the FMS entirely and then prioritize those allies who are contributing the most to their own defense in our system. And then I'd also say the work that the Deputy Secretary Feinberg has done with with industry to supercharge the US industrial base is really important.
▶ 1:19:33Final point I'll I'll make is, you know, of course as Secretary Zimmerman said in his opening statement, we do need the Europeans to invest some and we would expect them to invest some in their industrial base. I think we need to find complimentary ways to do that so that we're not in competition and a rising industrial base in on both sides of the Atlantic could be helpful to all of us. Sure. I want to follow up on your America first arms transfer strategy there that you that you talk about. I think that's key. We already have some European companies investing in the United States to build things like naval strike missile, joint strike missile.
▶ 1:20:04But we can't expect our NATO allies to have every capability. They can't build everything. And when we join together and use the things they do well plus the things that we do well, then I think we can meet the challenges across the board. And [snorts] that executive order is going to ensure that our European allies and partners have a streamlined access to be able to cut down as you said those bureaucratic impediments that unfortunately take years sometimes for them to get the weapons they need.
▶ 1:20:30And then help them to assume that primary responsibility for for defending Europe. Um Give me a time frame about when you think this policy is going to have an impact. When will our European allies actually see the timeliness of them getting the weapon systems that many of them have waited for for years. Some of them have been paid for and are waiting for those. Give me give me the real world impact of what this strategy is going to do.
▶ 1:20:55Yeah, Congressman, several of the things that are in the pipeline right now are scheduled to come out within the next couple of years and that that's part of what I was discussing with Chairman Rogers that some of those deliveries manifesting before the end of the decade will be very helpful. Now, if we can consider the ramp up in allied spending that's going to continue between now and the end of the decade they'll be buying the next tranche of equipment that America first arms transfer strategy will be essential to really getting bang for the buck out of that for the for the next 5 years of the of the next decade. So by 2035.
▶ 1:21:26That's great. Let me ask a little bit too about our vigilance activities there, things like Arctic Sentry, Baltic Sentry, Eastern Sentry. And I want to thank you and Secretary Rudy and our NATO partners for standing up Eastern Sentry. Those type of exercises really assure that we know that we can operate under a very risky and challenged environment and it's a big force multiplier, I think for the region. Tell me a little bit about the lessons learned. What what are the things that we have to work on?
▶ 1:21:53What are the things our European allies have to work on to make sure we have the capabilities necessary, especially as we see Russia building their defense industrial base and that I believe is an emerging threat that not only threatens Ukraine but also threatens European countries sometime in the future. Congressman, I'll give you two quick lessons. The first is for Eastern Sentry, it's been entirely manned executed by European allies.
▶ 1:22:17So they have really stepped up with their air missile defense capabilities and fighter aircraft that they've contributed to that that activity. The second lesson, which won't surprise you, is that we've got work to do on our counter drone defenses and figuring out what the figuring out what the right acoustic and sensor network is, active and passive, and then active and passive ways of downing those drones is essential. We're pulling a lot of those lessons from current conflicts and integrating them as we speak and doing some experimentation and we're excited about that.
▶ 1:22:44Gentleman's time is expired. Chairman, I'll yield back. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Norcross. Thank you, Chairman, and certainly to our witnesses here today. Um Interoperability is one of the key components with any of our alliances, our partners, to make sure that when we work together our equipment works together, our What we have done with NATO for the entire
▶ 1:23:14period that we've worked with them has been nothing short of a positive outcome in terms of us working with those allies. But as we know, relationships is more than just dollars and cents. And we talked an incredible amount of time here today about those dollars and cents, the 2% the 3% now moving to 5% for uh the NATO allies.
▶ 1:23:44Our mill-to-mill relationship, I would still suggest, in spite of what's going on, is is actually Leadership, for the most part has changed. But certainly our allies are there. our countries with our NATO allies significant changes, particularly over the last 18 months. We have NATO actually visiting us today.
▶ 1:24:13We'll be having lunch with many of those that we continue to work with. That anything that we do in terms of building that financial structure so they are paying let's call their weight and what they should be doing is incredibly important.
▶ 1:24:32But if our relationships from country to country, the way I've suggested, is at risk, and I'm suggesting you it is at risk with many I can't believe the number of phone calls I got from our NATO allies that we deal with on the parliamentary when the president suggested taking over Greenland and the damage that did to our is real as we're sitting here.
▶ 1:25:00Is as of the questions we're going. when we look at your testimony, it was page six, the outline characterizes the countries that represent model allies which you talked about earlier. Through the messaging the department is we're now creating in many ways a tiered system, those who are fully with us those are less than.
▶ 1:25:31And calling them dependents. Do you think this is a positive outcome for just building the financial side of what they contribute? Or do you take into account the human side? The people in that country who are being negatively impacted by the words coming out of our leadership. Mr. Zimmerman, would you comment on Thank you, Congressman.
▶ 1:25:58The relationship matters a lot and that's a core function of my job is doing defense diplomacy. And I've had the privilege to travel extensively across Europe and think I am accurate in assessing that we have strong relationships civilian to I I know they're strong mill-to-mill as well, but I'll let General Gridwitz speak to that.
▶ 1:26:21But we do we do invest in that and part of the benefit of building those relationships is you can have hard and candid conversations with countries who we don't think are stepping up the way they should. And we have we have those conversations and we see results from them. But I I would like to agree with your point about the the value of the of building the relationships so that you can have honest conversations about what makes the alliance strong. Let me just follow up. Are you married?
▶ 1:26:51Very happily. You know what goes into a relationship. I I'd like to think so. The suggestion of the way that we are talking about our allies by our leadership if we had that relationship talking to our wives we probably wouldn't be married. Uh General like to hear mill-to-mill, how we doing? Congressman, the mill-to-mill relationships are strong.
▶ 1:27:15They've throughout the period that I've been in command in constant communication with the Chiefs of Defense of the 31 members of the alliance and of course our Chief of Defense, General Dan Caine. So they're strong, they've been strong Certainly, that's the way that we're hearing the same thing.
▶ 1:27:33But relationships matter, money matters, the nuts and bolts, but the end of the day for any of us who've been through Europe and visited those cemeteries where our are buried we were fighting for values. When people sight of the values we share we're on a path I think is going downhill. With that, I yield back. Gentleman's time is expired. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Tennessee, Dr. DesJarlais.
▶ 1:28:04I thank the chairman and I thank our witnesses for being here today and I feel like we're kind of beating a dead horse today. One thing I do applaud both our chairman and ranking members, they've worked very hard to make this committee bipartisan.
▶ 1:28:17Don't always agree on some of the uh tactics that come out of the White House regardless of who the commander in chief is, but in this committee we are very much committed to our troops and making sure that they have the the very best and uh and we can agree on that and I thank them for that, but uh you know in Trump's first administration, he was pretty tough on our NATO allies about meeting their assessment
▶ 1:28:48and he was criticized that that would break apart Once Ukraine was invaded, we saw them step up and I I think what he did was pretty effective. So I applaud the fact what he laid the groundwork for did seem to work and seem to unite our NATO allies and many of them have stepped up and have met their assessments.
▶ 1:29:12you can call it hard conversations, you can call it tough love, tough parenting, but tone matters and you know, being tough on our adversaries, absolutely agree with. Being tough on our friends and allies, you know, sometimes is necessary, but tone matters and you know, I would agree with the ranking member and some of the other on the side of the aisle that maybe we backslid a little bit in terms of relationships because of the tone and I don't profess to tell the the president how to talk or
▶ 1:29:42or how to interact, but I do think it's important that that we maintain strong relationships and and I'd be curious General and maybe you'd be more comfortable ask answering this in a closed setting, but you work with the your military counterparts in almost all those countries.
▶ 1:29:59Are you hearing any whispering or complaints from them what as to what the leadership is saying their their presidents, their various leaders are in terms of the way they're being talked about and talked to and talked down to?
▶ 1:30:15Congressman, across the alliance, we have a a almost every single military in the alliance, I dare say every single one is has a non-partisan apolitical approach and so we remain focused on our job at the military level, which is deterring and defending every inch of alliance territory both in Europe and North across the entire Euro-Atlantic and so by focusing on that, we avoid the ups and downs of political Okay, uh I think Lindsey Graham
▶ 1:30:45yesterday insinuated that the Europeans felt that nuclear armed Iran was not their problem, that was our problem. I don't know exactly where he got that from, but when President Obama in 2013 proposed Aegis Ashore in Romania and then subsequently Poland, you know, that was clearly to defend Europe against an missile threat. So it does surprise me a little bit that they're not more engaged in helping in Iran.
▶ 1:31:15Would you have any comment on that? Either one of you? I'll I'll I'll just say that uh as a commander of US European Command, I've spent a lot of time talking to the Chiefs of Defense. We have been able to negotiate some of the access and basing that is enabling our operations in the EUCOM AOR for defensive purposes in the Eastern Med where we're defending Israel and our troops that are on the ground in the Middle East and alliance territory.
▶ 1:31:44So from a military perspective, that relationship remains solid. Mr. Zimmerman, you too. Congressman, we we were pleased from the policy side to see the the come through eventually in some of the cases that you're tracking. We wish it could have happened sooner and we we do feel that many of our European allies do have a stake in this and as the president has stated, we we would like to see them more engaged.
▶ 1:32:15And I 49 seconds, sorry Chairman, I I will stop it when my time is up. But the expansion of the listed drug trafficking and migration of transitional criminal organization from Europe to the uh US is is hindering our safety here at home. What are you doing to address that with the European leaders?
▶ 1:32:39Sir, from the military perspective, we have an interagency cell at US European Command that is working through our embassy platforms in each country to try to interdict those flows of either narcotics or money that comes out of the narcotics and also to help some of the nations that are very concerned with mass migration. So we're putting up a good bit of effort and I could expand on that in the classified session. Okay, thank you. I'll yield back. Chair now recognizes gentleman from California, Mr. Carbajal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Mr.
▶ 1:33:09Zimmerman, can you speak to the ways the three Baltic nations, Estonia, and Lithuania have been good allies to the United States? Gladly, Congressman.
▶ 1:33:22These these allies have blazed a trail for putting money where their mouth is and investing in their own And if you look at the list of countries that are, you know, spending on defense, they're of course all three of them, you know, are are right right near the right near the top. Um and we recognize that and we we hold that up as an as an example.
▶ 1:33:51In some cases, there's also I think in the case Lithuania in um eagerness to uh put money into the to the hosting of US troops and things of that nature. They're they're leaning forward on that and we appreciate that as well. Thank you.
▶ 1:34:11Well, can you tell me then what type of signal do you think zeroing out funding for the Baltic Security Initiative sends to these extraordinary allies? the department thought long and hard about that decision and I can tell you as the Assistant Secretary who where where those countries fall within my AOR have been engaging closely with them on that
▶ 1:34:41and in many ways, we see it as a um as a positive area for them to step into and we talked with them about ways that those programs could be funded through national funds or But they're already doing that. They're doing extensively. They're at the top of our NATO allies in terms of their investments.
▶ 1:35:03But it's okay, we're not going to reward If anything, we're going to penalize Well, I can tell you Congressman, we did not see that in any way as a as penalty to them. Thank you. Mr. General Grinkevich, can you speak to the benefits of security cooperation between the United States and Baltic allies?
▶ 1:35:26Yeah, Congressman, we use the security cooperation funding that we receive in US European Command to try to meet the objectives of the National Defense Strategy and that is to to accelerate the the shift of the burden so that our European allies can assume primary responsibility for their conventional defense. So just using a Baltic example with with with funding, we we would use that to do exercises with a nation that's bringing on a US capability like HIMARS in Estonia and be able to get them to integrate it more quickly.
▶ 1:35:57So that's how we use the funds that we receive when we receive them is to try to accelerate that burden shift as much as possible. Thank you. Mr. Zimmerman, is Russia's ongoing war with Ukraine Congressman, I think I will defer on that on that question. It's not illegal in your eyes.
▶ 1:36:24Congressman, I think I think that's a different department of the government that that answers that. Certainly the approach the United States is taking is that war
▶ 1:36:31Let let me ask you another question. Is easing sanctions on Russia's oil beneficial to Putin in his war against Congressman, as you know, that the aim of that is to provide is to is for global economic reasons and that that is the calculus behind that decision. I think that what an arsonist, a firefighter and an arsonist do.
▶ 1:37:00They start a problem and then they go in to try to save it is what I think President Trump is trying to do. If Russia is allowed to be successful against Ukraine, do you think Putin will stop there? Or do you think it is possible he invades other countries formerly of the Soviet Union like NATO allies Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?
▶ 1:37:25Congressman, I I think it's certainly possible that that Putin has broader ambitions, which underscores the need to bring this war to an end and provide the credible security guarantees that will sustain a lasting peace starting with a strong Ukraine followed by a strong Europe and then with the United States coming in as well. Thank you.
▶ 1:37:47As as always, I'm not usually too happy with the responses we get from this administration and and I think today you've seen a lot of bipartisan questions in the interest of our troops and our national security. No politics, just trying to get some straight answers and regrettably, we're not seeing that as robustly as it needs to be. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman yields back. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Mississippi, General Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:38:16I want to start an alliance is much different than a A marriage is much different than being a brother or a blood family member of someone. My brother and I had some knock down drag outs. I won't say on the air that he won any of those. He was a big tough man, but you know what? We never doubted not one second that if someone else got on one of the Kelly boys, both of the Kelly boys would be on them. That's what an alliance is.
▶ 1:38:44It doesn't mean you get your feelings hurt and then we won't be there to help you. An alliance is a bond in blood, built in blood, built in European campaigns in World War II and and I think our allies need to hear and I think our president means it. I don't care what his words. He may fuss with his brothers, but at the end of the day, if another guy jumps on one of our brothers, I promise you we will be there for the fight.
▶ 1:39:08And I think that any all this other stuff, I think our allies need to understand we will be there if there's a fight and we will do our duty. With that being said, is Europe, and I don't really want to talk about Iran, but I have to talk the Russians, how long did it take them to establish air superiority and to take out the ability of Ukraine to strike into Russia? Cuz to my understanding, they still have not. Is that correct?
▶ 1:39:37That's correct, Congressman. Okay. Is Europe safer today, with the exception of Turkey, which it borders Iran, is Europe safer today because we took out all ballistic missile capabilities and all air defenses in Iran or the majority of air defenses, is Europe safer today and does Iran have the same ability to strike Iran as it does his Arab neigh- I mean, strike Europe as it does his Arab Uh Congressman, uh Iran no longer has the same ability to
▶ 1:40:07strike Europe and hold it at risk with their ballistic missile force. And Iran has struck many of his Arab neighbors, many of his surrounding states, including Turkey, which is in Europe, but Turkey, but they have struck them. Do you think uh what would make someone think that they would not strike Europe if they had the capability to do so right now? Uh Congressman, as a commander of European Command, I am watching that very closely.
▶ 1:40:33I think they do have the intent uh to potentially strike Europe, particularly some of our uh activities in the Eastern Mediterranean. That being said, uh Russia's war in Ukraine has reshaped security environment in Europe. Thanks to President Trump's lead- leadership, NATO allies are increasing defense spending in response. The key question now is how quickly those investments can translate into real capacity. Therefore, I look forward to hearing that.
▶ 1:40:59General, as Russia continues to expand its military present in the Arctic and China seeks greater access to Arctic routes, the strategic importance of the high north continues to grow. The United States currently operates far fewer icebreakers than Russia, while several of our NATO allies, including Finland, Sweden, and Canada, maintain significant icebreaking capability. How [snorts] can the United States better integrate allied icebreaking capacity and Arctic infrastructure into NATO's broader defense posture in the high north?
▶ 1:41:30Uh Congressman, thanks. The the Arctic is is incredibly important, as you highlighted. It it is one of the strategic approaches to the United States and to to northern Europe. Uh and it's an area where the alliance does focus and needs to continue focusing. On the specifics of the the icebreakers, I was in Finland and Sweden uh recently. Uh chose to go in the winter just so I could see some of those incredible capabilities that they bring to bear. Uh and we are integrating them to operations such as Arctic Century uh as we as we work together in the high north.
▶ 1:41:58And then, I just highlight, I think uh the Finns are helping us out with some of the icebreaker acquisitions that are being worked not in the Department of Defense, but I think that's going to be a game changer for us as well. Absolutely. I also want to talk about long-range strike and bomber task force deployments and they're increasingly important in NATO and the defense of NATO.
▶ 1:42:17Uh what do you see our current aerial refueling capacity in the European theater to include airfields or platforms to launch those refuelers Uh Congressman, I think it's well known that you can never have enough aerial refueling aircraft. Uh and uh they're they're constantly in demand. They're in demand in Europe. They're clearly in demand in the Indo-Pacific as well.
▶ 1:42:38Uh we do we are fortunate to have the infrastructure to to base them uh in Europe, uh but knowing that they will be a force that's needed no matter where the United States is projecting power, uh we can never have enough of them. And and I just want to double-tap that. Right now, we have a floor of how many fuelers, refuelers we should have. That number needs to be increased. That is a floor. That is the bare minimum without accepting unacceptable risk to our armed forces.
▶ 1:43:04So, I would just really ask uh all of our commands to push up to say, "We do not have the refueling capacity that is required should we get into a full-scale war, especially if we get into it." With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman, I recognize the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:43:21I'd like to thank the uh witnesses for giving us this booklet this morning uh on the strategy for Uh highlighted in that is Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and others are increasing their collaboration and cooperation as their interests align against the United States' security interests, economic interests against the United States. So, I have some questions I'd like to uh to ask as as we look at those threats of collaborating nations. All right.
▶ 1:43:52Secretary Zimmerman, is uh Russia a key collaborator with Iran? Congressman, they they do collaborate. And and they're collaborating right now. Uh they're targeting US servicemen to be killed. They're targeting sites and they're giving uh intelligence to Iran with the Bashar al-Assad regime in Syria, was Russia a big collaborator with that threat against the US?
▶ 1:44:22Congressman, as you know, Russia was deeply involved in the How about North How about North Korea? Are they a collaborating? Who are the key collaborators of North Korea giving them strategic military information and and taking their soldiers and their uh drone warfare? We we see Is it Russia? We see opportunistic collaboration there. From who? From Russia? Yes, sir. And we see the work of China and Russia working together.
▶ 1:44:50Uh where they're doing joint exercises uh more than ever historically working together against the US interest. let's just switch to what's going on in the negotiations on Ukraine, cuz this puts Ukraine front and center on our interest, our interest. The negotiations uh are one-sided.
▶ 1:45:10The US is sitting there saying you that Ukraine should cede land that's not even They're saying Ukraine should limit their military in the future, defense capabilities, just against what uh we heard this morning about what European countries, and Ukraine is a European country, should be doing. And they denigrate the leader. Uh Mr. Zimmerman, is President Zelenskyy a dictator? Uh Congressman, with respect to Ukraine, No, no. Is President Zelenskyy a dictator?
▶ 1:45:41May May I answer something that you
▶ 1:45:42No, I want you to answer that one right now. My time's precious here. Uh I'm I'm not aware of any evidence that he's a dictator. No, how much did he get in his last election? Do you Percentage-wise? I don't know. 75%. So, he's not Who Who did call him a dictator? Do you know, Mr. Zimmerman? May I speak to your previous point?
▶ 1:46:03I'm questioning you. You don't know who called President Zelenskyy a dictator? I think many people have. Was one of them President Trump? I'm not tracking that. It was he. Did he say that about Zelenskyy, that he was a dictator? The commander-in-chief who you answer to. I'm not aware, Congressman. Well, let me inform you, he did. I suggest you uh educate yourself on that.
▶ 1:46:29Did he say that uh they shouldn't be allowed at the Did President Trump say that? I I didn't catch the question. Whether Ukraine should be involved in the negotiations, whether they should be a party to it. They they are a party to negotiations. They're not. They're not included in the negotiations directly directly with the US and Russia trilaterally. And by the way, Europe should be included in that, too. President Trump suggested that was the case because they had no cards to play.
▶ 1:46:59General, does Ukraine have cards to play in the Uh Congressman, Ukraine has performed uh extremely well and innovated on the battlefield and even in recent weeks has taken back some territory around
▶ 1:47:15Thank you, General. Uh and back to Mr. Zimmerman, what's the distance in miles from where we are in Washington, D.C. to From here to from here to Tehran? In Iran, yeah. Uh I can I can I can speculate that it's maybe over 10,000
▶ 1:47:34miles. Okay. Can you tell us the distance from Washington, D.C. and Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine? I bet it's Let me inform you, it's 5,100. It's less than it is. Then why did the president say that the war in Ukraine not directly affect the US because it's very far away?
▶ 1:47:55So, do you think the president was wrong in saying that, as I just told you, uh that Kyiv is a closer distance than Uh Congressman, I respectfully I think you'd have to look at every comment in its context and the Well, I find it pretty clear-cut to me, but let me go on because I'd like to compliment many of the people across the aisles here and in talking about uh the importance of NATO, and we're going to do that. I wish they would sign on to a discharge.
▶ 1:48:22We need one more person to sign on to that to give greater sanctions to Russia and support for the Baltic countries and Ukraine. I yield back. Gentleman yields. Chairman, I recognize [clears throat] the gentleman from Nebraska, General Bacon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciated your opening comments, as well as the ranking members and many in here today. I appreciate our two uh panels coming here today.
▶ 1:48:42I appreciate uh hearing from you, so thank I've been very supportive of the president on Iran as I'm I I think getting rid of Maduro was a good thing, but I've been appalled by this administration's tone, rhetoric, tactics, strategy when it comes to Europe. The denigrating of our allies has been terrible.
▶ 1:49:05The weakness communicated to Putin has caused great damage and some of the communications towards President For me, it's been embarrassing, but it's it's hurt us. I hear from our allies all the time of the great damage that this administration has been doing bilaterally or to the whole alliance, and it's going to take a while to recover. And I'm not blaming the military leadership here. This is the civilian leadership that is doing this.
▶ 1:49:33So, today you have Secretary you know, you said it's Europe's role to support Ukraine. Well, I do think they have a big role. They should be doing more, but we have a role, too. What happens if Russia prevails? It it would be it would cause grave damage to us and will cost us more in the long run. 70% of Americans want us to do more for for Ukraine not just Europe. They want us to do And I think most folks also support tougher sanctions on Russia.
▶ 1:50:02And I wish Yes, this is this Congress should take lead on this and force that. So, the president yesterday says NATO does very little for the US or we can't count on them. General Grygorych, isn't it true that NATO's only declared Article 5 one time? That was after 9/11 in support of the United States. That's correct, Congressman. They deployed with us in Afghanistan and I we've had senior leadership say Denmark has been a poor ally.
▶ 1:50:33Is it true that Denmark served with us in the Middle East and they have had more fatalities per capita than any other ally that we had in the Middle That is accurate, Congressman. Okay, going back to this is my what I wanted to talk about, but I wanted to bring that up after listening to the opening comments in the discussion here. General Grygorych, doesn't our security cooperation funding enable allies, and particularly I'm talking about the Baltic Security Initiative? Is the BSI funding does this help your mission?
▶ 1:51:05Congressman, as I mentioned, we do use that security cooperation funding to to try to push that third pillar of our mission, which is to position the alliance to deter and defend and get the Europeans more ready to assume primary responsibility for their conventional defense. You know, I'm the Baltic Security chairman. They love this program. They're spending nearly 5% of their GDP. It's a great program that helps deter Russia and help and these folks embrace freedom, embrace us more than any other country out there.
▶ 1:51:33And so, I've I've already heard Secretary Zimmerman defend why you wanted to defund the BSI. It's a terrible statement to all the East European countries doing that. That's why this uh committee had to force BSI funding in the last appropriations bill cuz we don't trust that that money will be there because of some of the decisions already made. I got a question for Secretary Zimmerman. What happens if Russia prevails in Ukraine?
▶ 1:52:02Congressman, I think there would be some very dire consequences of that, which is why the president is doing everything he can to bring the war to a conclusion. Well, I appreciate that he's negotiating. We need that. But I don't think it helps to act like a referee in a boxing match as if you got two equal people boxing. Now, we have a victim. We have a democracy, a country being invaded. We have a dictator that is doing the invasion, murdering POWs.
▶ 1:52:30They've kidnapped roughly 20,000 children. They're They're murdering POWs on the field. They're bombing cities every night. We should not act like we're neutral in this fight. This is a fight against good versus evil. And I expect more from a Republican administration to stand up to a bully, stand up to Putin. I consider myself a Reagan Republican. I believe firmly that Ronald Reagan would have known which side to stand on and be more clear about. I support negotiations, but there's a right and wrong here, and we act like there isn't.
▶ 1:53:01We we act morally blind. And it's sending just a terrible message out there. So, again, I support I rate the raining operations in the Europa, but it comes to Europe the message is one of weakness. It's one of appeasement and it's hurting our country. I yield. The gentleman yields back. Chairman, I recognize the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Crow. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to both of you for coming in today.
▶ 1:53:27Uh General, would you agree that Russia poses the most substantial threat to Europe, our allies, and American interests in Europe? I would, Congressman. Mr. Zimmerman, would you agree with that statement as well? I would, Congressman. Uh and and do you agree, Mr. Zimmerman, that Russia derives most of its revenue from energy exports, particularly oil? I would, Congressman.
▶ 1:53:52And that sanctions imposed by the United States and our allies are meant to specifically target those exports to undermine their ability to recapitalize their war machine? I I concur. And in general, would you say that their energy exports and their sales of energy has been the primary means by which they've been able to recapitalize their war machine and to continue the offensive operations in Ukraine?
▶ 1:54:20Congressman, it's been that and also their assistance with sanctions evasion from China. China. Okay. Um earlier this week, the administration loosened sanctions allowing Russian oil and petroleum already loaded on vessels at sea to sell them to other countries.
▶ 1:54:40So, Vladimir Putin and Russia stands to gain an estimated $10 billion from these loosened uh actions by the uh money that could directly be used, as you already stated, to fund their war machine, to fund their offensive operations against Ukraine, and further destabilize Europe, and to hold our troops and our interests at risks. So, Mr.
▶ 1:55:05Zimmerman, how can you sit here and justify the loosening of those sanctions when we all agree that it's those and that selling of oil and energy that's directly being used to finance Russia's war machine against Ukraine and to threaten US interests? Congressman, thank you for the question and the the your your initial line of questioning was focusing exclusively on, I would say, a military question.
▶ 1:55:34But then to look at the issue of sanctions and events that are going on globally, you know, a statesman has to consider a full set of variables and can And here in the department, we're of course looking at the military question. The interagency needs to contemplate economics, free flow of energy, things of that nature. So, I won't opine on the justification for that other than to say It's because the war in Iran has increased gas prices.
▶ 1:56:01So, this administration is easing sanctions to reduce those gas prices. Is that Congressman, I I think that there is a desire to ease pressure on the on on crude oil. But that is a I would say that's a shared interest of many of our allies and partners. So, the administration started a war in Iran. That has jacked up energy prices. Now, this administration is scrambling to figure out how to reduce those prices after the fact without thinking about it beforehand.
▶ 1:56:32So, they have reduced sanctions on Russia, correct? I I dispute your characterization. Well, how about the last piece of that? They they have reduced sanctions on Russia. Is that accurate? I understand that's factual. Okay. And and let me go back to where I started then.
▶ 1:56:50Would you agree again that Russia's primary source of revenue for its war machine in Ukraine and its ability to build a military that is holding US interests and US troops in Europe at threat is from oil exports? Oil is an essential contributor. With also the comment that General Grygorych made to refine that with the sanctions evasion support from Well, I think the logic is pretty clear here.
▶ 1:57:18I think we have made a huge mistake by reducing sanctions on Russia at a critical time in this conflict when Ukraine is actually starting to turn the tide of the on the battlefield and regain momentum through extreme fortitude and grit and resiliency and the the heroism of the Ukrainian people and a substantial amount of investment by Americans and by our allies over the last almost
▶ 1:57:484 years in this war effort. So, I I think this administration needs to stop being lenient on Russia and Vladimir Putin, and we need to get serious about sanctions and serious about making sure that we're setting up Ukraine to win this war. I yield back. Thank you. The chair now recognizes Mr. Messmer from Indiana.
▶ 1:58:10Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. General Grygorych, the Aegis Ashore sites in Romania and Poland are vital to NATO's integrated air and missile defense, and NWSC Crane in my district plays a key role in supporting these and can you describe the current operational mode of these, whether they are defensive only or have any dual dual capable configurations? Congressman, thanks.
▶ 1:58:37I recently visited the Aegis Ashore site in Romania just a couple of months ago, and it's an impressive capability that's fully ready to defend alliance territory. I have not yet visited the one in Poland, but I do intend to do so. The the the troops that are there are excited. They're I was able to watch an exercise where they practiced against an inbound and it's it's really an exquisite capability. Okay, thank you.
▶ 1:59:04Given the challenges of maintaining the readiness amid Russia's hybrid missile threats, um would it make sense to configure these systems to counter both ballistic and conventional missile attacks Chairman, it it may. That'd be something that I would need to look at. The one of the one of the challenges with them is they are fixed sites. They could be vulnerable to counterattack. So, it would be something that we'd have to consider carefully and think through what the defensive mechanisms for the site themselves would be. Okay, very good.
▶ 1:59:33With Russia's increased missile activity in in Ukraine, what upgrades to the Aegis Ashore radar and interceptor capabilities would you come prioritize to count to to counter the emerging hypersonic threats? Yeah, Chairman, this is really a question of the rounds that we're able to put into the into the into the system and making sure that upgraded capabilities are able to be launched from the launchers that can handle those advanced those advanced weapons.
▶ 2:00:01And I could talk to you a little bit more about some of the specifics in the classified session if you like. Okay. Can you address any issues with host nations agreements, especially Romania's recent approval of of US use of of their air bases? I'm sorry, sir. Can you you repeat that? any any issues with host nation agreements, especially Romania and and the recent approval for for the US use of their air bases? No, sir. No no issues with Romania.
▶ 2:00:30Everything that we've asked them for they've they've been willing to provide. Okay, good General, with the New START treaty expiring last month, how is UCOM addressing the risk to NATO's eastern flank from Russia's unconstrained nuclear buildup? Congressman, I I don't sense an immediate increase in that risk. Obviously, over time that risk could grow depending on how Russia reacts with the treaty expiring.
▶ 2:00:57You know, we are very focused on broader outlines of strategic stability as well, thinking of advanced conventional and nuclear capabilities. We work that very closely with our policy counterparts. Again, maybe a few more details I can provide in the classified session. Okay, perfect. What posture adjustments, such as fielding of low-yield theater nuclear weapons are needed to maintain a credible deterrence without the treaty's verification mechanisms?
▶ 2:01:24Congressman, I'll make a general comment here. You know, Russia does have a suite of non-strategic nuclear capabilities they could employ at some point. I don't I don't see a risk of that right now, but they do have a range of those. And deterring the use of those is is difficult with a one-size-fits-all approach from our nuclear arsenal. So, the department I know is looking at a variety of options.
▶ 2:01:50We're working with US Strategic Command over the coming weeks on what things we might propose to the administration and to the Congress moving forward to bring that into balance across all threats globally, not just the Russian non-strategic nuclear weapons threats. Okay, how do you see the SLCM program being used within that within that It's an essential part of it, Congressman. Thank Still got a little time.
▶ 2:02:14Uh Foreign military foreign foreign military sales reform has been prioritized by this administration via several executive orders. How can you UCOM support these reforms? I tell you that the the allies are going to support them a lot because they're going to benefit for them and they're going to spend more money buying US equipment from our industrial base. And I think that's going to be the biggest win here. Okay, excellent. One more. Indiana's National Guard partner nation is Slovakia.
▶ 2:02:42And how have the Slovakian armed forces assumed greater responsibility for European conventional defense? Sir, just just real quick since you gave me the opportunity, the State Partnership Program is one of our superpowers as the United States of America. The the relationships that we build not just in my AOR, but across every geographic combatant commander's AOR because of those those State Partnership Programs. For very little investment, we get a huge return on investment.
▶ 2:03:08And in terms of the Slovaks, I'll go and visit them again soon. I've I've been there once already. I know that they highly value that relationship with India. Great news. Thank you, and I yield back. Thank you. The chair now recognizes Ms. Elfraht from Maryland for 5 minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to our witnesses today. I'm going to start with an easy one, General. Can you Maryland's the home of Fort Meade and Cyber Command.
▶ 2:03:32Can you speak I think there's an greater and greater role Cyber Command plays across every theater, but can you please briefly speak to your collaboration with Cyber Command through UCOM? No, thanks, Congresswoman. Cyber Command is absolutely essential to our operations. As you know, the character of warfare is changing. We're in seeing increased value of both offensive and defensive cyber capabilities. They're making they've made a huge difference in a number of different areas, and certainly it's no different in in my area of responsibility.
▶ 2:04:01So, we work very closely with US Cyber Command. They've sent a number of defensive teams over to help allies and partners clean their network of malicious activity. And I'd be happy to talk about some of the other things they're doing for us in the classified session.
▶ 2:04:16I would really appreciate that. I want to echo I think what we heard on both sides of the aisle today, which is a universal and I've heard it from you gentlemen, a universal consensus that we have to end the war in Ukraine. The greatest deterrent to Putin from furthering his ambitions in Ukraine and his ambitions throughout Europe is a a strong unified NATO. I think everybody in this room and everybody listening agrees with that. And that requires every NATO ally stepping up in defense spending. And I'll give the president a rare compliment.
▶ 2:04:45It's I think that is a wonderful thing that he has been able to negotiate. At the same time, it almost feels like and you've heard this today, one step forward and risking two steps back when we have rhetoric that feels schizophrenic at times and actions that feel schizophrenic at times. Thinking of denigrating President Zelenskyy, thinking of pulling out of the Baltic Security Initiative despite the Baltic countries being the leaders in Europe. We have We have leaders and we have folks that need to step up in a greater way.
▶ 2:05:14Pulling the brigade out of Romania. We did a great thing in General negotiating the icebreaker deal with Finland. I too was in in Sweden and Finland and and saw their capabilities. We are decades behind in in icebreaker production here in the United States and it's essential to Arctic security. But then very soon afterwards threatening to take Greenland by force.
▶ 2:05:37So, you're seeing we are all seeing this rather schizophrenic positioning including lifting sanctions on Russian oil to then further, as my colleague from Colorado mentioned, further fuel Putin's war machine in Ukraine and and potentially elsewhere. So, I I want to I want to not pretend like these things exist in silos because they do not exist in silos. Everything is intersectional. Everything is related to the other.
▶ 2:06:03Would you both agree that everybody reaching 5% of GDP on defense spending requires a strong thriving economy in each of the NATO countries we work with? Congresswoman, we want strong thriving economies across NATO. Especially to get to that 5%. Absolutely. I mean, from a selfish military perspective, the bigger their GDP is, the more military capability the alliance will have. Exactly.
▶ 2:06:32And our allies have other pressures that we don't experience being 5,000 miles away. Other pressures like border security in Finland, in Estonia. Other pressures like some of the other NATO countries that I haven't mentioned being a little bit nervous about purchasing from American defense companies and thinking perhaps, you know, if we're going to see this type of bullying from the White House, we can just purchase in from European countries who we all know do not have the same exquisite
▶ 2:07:02capabilities that we have here in the United States. So, I just I I'm frustrated. I think you've heard it on both sides today at the schizophrenic positioning because a strong economy in Europe equals more defense spending equals a stronger NATO equals the greatest deterrents to Putin across the board. And yet we're not seeing a tariff policy or a co-production policy or European purchasing policy that matches all of all of our goals here.
▶ 2:07:28And I think you would have a lot better case to make if we had a more consistent policy across the board. That's not a but please you may respond if you We have 45 seconds. Just just briefly on on the matter of co-production, we are very open to co-production where it where it makes sense. We don't want to pursue things just for maybe just a like a symbolic win or things of that nature, but what completely works.
▶ 2:07:55But sometimes symbolic is the strengthening of our economies to meet your reach a mutual end. Well, if it's strengthening the economies, I'd say it's beyond symbolic. But yeah, but I Congresswoman, I've I've seen a couple of examples of co-production agreements or licensing agreements that are paying off and particularly in Germany with their industrial base. There's some Patriots that are created in Germany now. There's new 155 plants that are being made.
▶ 2:08:24Parts of parts of the Leopard 2 tank are actually made here in the United States and then get shipped into Europe to be assembled there. So, I think there are potential win-wins. We just have to find those complimentary opportunities.
▶ 2:08:36I think we can do a lot more with that. I appreciate your answers and with that I yield back. Thank you. And the chair now recognizes myself for 5 minutes as the representative from Hampton Roads, Virginia. So, strong military presence, especially our United States Navy down there. Certainly a privilege, and I appreciate this administration's strength peace through strength approach that we take every turn. I think it's quite quite different from the last administration.
▶ 2:08:58We saw a lot of weakness and a lot of predicaments that we are in right now with Russia and Ukraine, with the aggression of China, with with what happened in Israel. I think we wouldn't even be in these positions if we took more of a peace through strength approach and kept the world on their toes. And I echo the sentiments of Congressman Kelly, who I I certainly hope that our NATO allies especially know that we have their backs, that we will be them there for them. I think we show that at every turn and that's why we again are focused on on that strength piece.
▶ 2:09:25I want to talk a little bit about Operation Epic Fury, and we've been been in this operation now for 2 weeks in the Middle East, and we're seeing our burn rate of our precision guided munitions is staggering. And the shipbuilders, sailors, and military families in my district understand that we can't be the arsenal of democracy if our shelves are empty. So, are you currently being forced to prioritize Ukraine's immediate operational needs over the long-term replenishment of the US European Command's own reserves, General? Uh Congresswoman Lee, we are not.
▶ 2:09:55We are uh striking a balance between those And at what point does the current burn rate of munitions across Ukraine and the Middle East begin to create an unacceptable risk for EUCOM readiness? Uh Congresswoman, we're we're monitoring the situation closely, monitoring the the burn down of of munitions, and assessing the impact on our plans. If I could defer the answer to the classified session, I think I'd be able to give you a much more full some response. Sounds good, and I wanted to ask a question too about the USS Ford. I know it's been in the news uh especially in Virginia.
▶ 2:10:26A lot of sailors on board from my district again, but recent reports indicate that there was a a fire that left over 600 sailors without beds, forcing them to sleep on floors and tables. We've asked we've reached out to Navy OLA, who can't uh provide really good answers. So, I'm just wondering if either of you can verify the current living conditions for these sailors.
▶ 2:10:45And furthermore, as we push these platforms toward these record-setting deployment lengths, which is looking at almost 11 months, at one point what point do some of these non-combat maintenance failures impact our mission success? Yeah, Congresswoman, the the good news is just on the last part of your question is our uh the combat capability of Gerald R. Ford has not been affected by this. Certainly, there are some quality of life impacts that uh US Central Command is working on.
▶ 2:11:10We're actually going to help them in US European Command with some of the sustainment and repairs uh here in the coming weeks. Uh so, uh I'd defer to US Central Command to give the specifics. I know there's an investigation ongoing, and I wouldn't want to presume the outcome of that. Uh but know that EUCOM is going to help take care of those sailors from your district. Okay, great. We'll be we'll certainly be watching.
▶ 2:11:30And as EUCOM infrastructure is increasingly supporting combat operations against Iran, are you seeing any strain on medical care, housing capacity, or child care services for the service members and their families in the EUCOM region? Yeah, Congresswoman, we've uh we've currently got several thousand uh folks who have come uh from uh the US Central Command region dependents that we are hosting in Europe.
▶ 2:11:52Uh that is causing some strain in certain areas that uh we're uh actively working cases as they come up, you know, making sure children are able to get into schools and that families have houses to live in. Most are being housed on the economy, but we do have some that are in military facilities as well. Uh so, we're we're working all of that.
▶ 2:12:09Uh as far as medical care, uh we prioritized uh as you know, at Landstuhl, uh we have a uh medical hospital that's, you know, second to probably only Walter Reed in in the world, and uh that is a a key MEDEVAC uh place where we are uh bringing wounded back uh or uh folks that have uh other injuries not not related to combat operations back through there.
▶ 2:12:32So, that has caused us it caused us for a couple of weeks to defer some uh elective procedures, and uh we had some uh maternity care that was uh uh where we set folks up with off-base providers so that we could increase the capacity to handle uh what might happen uh from Epic Fury. Fortunately, we've been able uh based on the flow rate through Landstuhl to reinstate all of those uh at Landstuhl itself. That's good news.
▶ 2:12:56And are there any additional resources or congressional support that would help ensure these quality of life services keep pace with the operational demands of the mission? Uh Congresswoman, I'll I'll I'll definitely get back to you on that and check to see if there's any details. None come to mind right now, but I appreciate the question, and I'll I'll confirm an answer. Let us know. I know our quality of life, just the task force work we did last Congress, it continues to be a priority especially in places like EUCOM. So, uh and and I yield, and I now recognize uh Mr. Congressman Ryan from New York for 5 minutes.
▶ 2:13:26Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh thank you both for being here.
▶ 2:13:30I know this has been a topic, but I do think it's important to hit on in that bipartisan way as we've heard over and over. So, I want to take just a minute on Romania specifically and and build on that and and press a little bit more on that. Um the chairman rightly hit on this, I think uh both in his opening and in his question, but just to compound and add uh we have set this target. Allies meeting the target as you all have said. Uh in Romania specifically, they're accelerating towards that 5% of GDP.
▶ 2:14:00They're set to reach or exceed 3% in the next 1 to 2 years. Uh they've committed 30% of their defense budget to procurement, including updating their fighters, expanding missile defense capabilities. We all know and have talked about the the the historic and very encouraging investment at MK in terms of a $2 billion expansion, um which would be a capacity for up to 10,000 plus NATO troops, and even gone so far as to sign a a major deal with Rheinmetall uh in terms of ammunition capacity and being independent, which
▶ 2:14:30So, you know, as we've said and but bears repeating, they're doing everything we've asked and And the response to that is us pulling back. And I just one, I think obviously that is wrong, but two, what I'm concerned about is the message that that sends to all of our allies, particularly those in in your AOR, General. And I know these are delicate conversations, but can you give us a little when whoever had to deliver that news to the Romanians that after them doing everything we've asked, we're essentially saying we're rewarding that by decreasing our presence.
▶ 2:14:58And I just want to that general sense that obviously that would be welcomed and I do I just want to in the interest of time want to shift to a different topic and follow up with you, General. Um you know, to your credit, you've spoken on this, General Cavoli, but before you, we've heard as a committee that we are in real time learning the lessons of this new nature of warfare in terms of drone warfare and what we've seen in Ukraine. Um and then to watch, you know, just absolutely the the horrific incident in Kuwait. And I know we all and I appreciate that you both acknowledged um our our love and respect and and grief with those families of those that we lost. How can we speed up the lessons learned that that you especially in your AOR, General, we're seeing and and what can we learn from the Ukrainians? What can we learn from others? And is it fair to say like that that we just have to rapidly accelerate a very different force posture from certainly the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Uh and and what can we do? What can the committee do? Cuz I think we're all very worried about that after that horrific incident. Yeah, Congressman, thanks.
▶ 2:15:26Uh the the So, this is something that we've been very focused on given the the drone threat as we see it in US EUCOM and of course you see it in US Central Command now uh as well. Uh one of the things that we've done is we've taken some of the technology that has worked in Ukraine. We have pulled it out of country, uh purchased it ourselves, and we've done experimentation both in Poland and in Romania as well to help them thicken their uh drone defenses. Because of that work, we were then able to rapidly deploy some of these unique capabilities uh into the US CENTCOM uh AOR. Unfortunately, uh it didn't prevent the situation in Kuwait, but we do have priority locations that we're working with CENTCOM on uh right now. And again, I can I can give you a little bit more on that uh in the classified session just for reasons of operational security, but we are working that hard. It's very important work, and we're proud of it. Thank you, sir. Yield back. Gentleman yields back. Hearing none, I recognize gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:15:56Thank you to our witnesses for being here today and to all of our military and our veterans. We wouldn't have a country without our men and women. Thank you for your service. As we mourn our veterans, uh excuse me, as we mourn our losses, uh we need to make sure we live a life worthy of their sacrifice. We got to finish the job. And we're all about teamwork. One of the big concerns for me is the quality of life for our military uh active duty in your AO.
▶ 2:16:20So, I would mean mean bad commander say they didn't want more capability. Uh I would say uh And just I'm in the interest of time, just wanted to that general sense that obviously that would be welcomed. And I do I just want to in the interest of time want to shift to a different topic and follow up with you, General.
▶ 2:16:38Um you know, to your credit, you've spoken on this, General Cavoli, but before you, we've heard as a committee that we are in real time learning the lessons of this new nature of warfare in terms of drone warfare and what we've seen in Ukraine.
▶ 2:16:53Um And then to watch, you know, just absolutely the the horrific incident in And I know we all and I appreciate that you both acknowledged um our our love and respect and and grief with those families of those that we lost. How can we speed up the lessons learned that that you especially in your AOR, General, we're seeing and and what can we learn from the Ukrainians? What can we learn from others?
▶ 2:17:21And is it fair to say like that that we just have to rapidly accelerate a very different force posture from certainly the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Uh and and what can we do? What can the committee do? Cuz I think we're all very worried about that after that horrific incident. Yeah, Congressman, thanks. The the So, this is something that we've been very focused on given the the drone threat as we see it in US EUCOM, and of course you see it in US Central Command uh as well. Uh one of the things that we've done is we've taken some of the technology that has worked in Ukraine.
▶ 2:17:51We have pulled it out of country, uh purchased it ourselves, and we've done experimentation both in Poland and in Romania as well to help them thicken their uh drone defenses. Because of that work, we were then able to rapidly deploy some of these unique capabilities uh into the US CENTCOM uh AOR. Unfortunately, uh it didn't prevent the situation in Kuwait, but we do have priority locations that we're working with CENTCOM on uh right now. And again, I can I can give you a little bit more on that uh in the classified session just for reasons of operational security, but we are working that hard.
▶ 2:18:19It's very important work, and we're proud of it. Thank you, sir. Yield back.
▶ 2:18:50of life for our military, active duty in your AO. So, I will I will be asking you some questions eventually about that, but I'll start off with General Green, which given that the world has become a more volatile place, there's still a need for rapid response in the United States. I'm curious about how the combatant commands plan to respond. So, Congressman, thanks for the question. You know, in US European Command, we have a number of response forces that are on call. As I mentioned in my opening statement, I consider us a power projection platform.
▶ 2:19:20So, those response forces are not just for our use inside of Europe, but for power projection into Africa or into the Middle East. And I'm confident that our men and women are able to respond extremely rapidly. Having those forward positioned does give us a geographical advantage. It just just decreases the distance we might have to cover and gives the president much more flexible options. Given the reduction in force in Europe, how has the requirement evolved in your AR with regard to forces like the US Marine Corps?
▶ 2:19:49So, the requirement hasn't evolved at all. We maintain a standing requirement for Marine capabilities. I can go into precisely what that is, but I would say across European Command, AFRICOM, and CENTCOM, there's no better force than US Marines for some of the immediate crisis response that could that we might need. We have continued to advocate for that capability in our tri-command region. I often hear the comment of the Marine Corps say, "We need more amphibious ships." So, we're we're doing our best here in this committee to help help support that effort.
▶ 2:20:16Secretary Zimmerman, allied burden sharing has been a great priority for this administration, and the president's efforts have rightly spurred our NATO allies to spend more on their own militaries. What tools do you have at your disposal to further position European allies to meet NATO capability Congressman, I appreciate that question because it's it's not just spending. It's what you're spending on and what and what capabilities you are developing.
▶ 2:20:44I'm pleased to say that EUCOM and General Green which knows this intimately is engaged with with all the NATO allies to take a close look at what their key capabilities are and to ensure that they are focused on those areas. And my team as well in our engagements is is is a laser focused on the capability targets. I'll just mention one more thing if I may, which is the issue of readiness.
▶ 2:21:07Cuz a lot of these countries will may have a unit or an asset that that looks good on a spreadsheet, but also needs to be combat credible as well. And so, we're asking that question, too. What areas still require US leadership or industrial capacity that Europe cannot yet replace? Congressman, that analysis is very important, and it is I understand it is ongoing right now.
▶ 2:21:31And perhaps I could ask the the the general to speak to Congressman, there's some things as President Trump has said that the US makes the best in the world. So, air defense capability, we make the best in the world. That's one where European capacity just simply isn't there yet. Our fighter fleet and so on. Our shipbuilding is absolutely essential. So, there's there's some shared production capability, but those are a couple of the areas that I would that I would highlight. And this is a question for either one.
▶ 2:22:01How many countries have reached that 5% contribution mark? I think and this is a dynamic situation. I think right now we're we're at two, but what we what we really care about is the path to get there. They committed to 5% by was it 2035? So, we we count it a positive thing if they are on that
▶ 2:22:22That makes sense. And just curious, out of those two, has anyone exceeded that Yes, Lithuania and Estonia might be right on the edge. And General, do you information on that? Yeah, this year I think that's right, Secretary Zimmerman. Next year I project it'll be five or six allies that that meet that. Poland was just below the 5% as an example last year, so I anticipate they'll exceed it this year.
▶ 2:22:44With regard to quality of life for our troops overseas in your AO, have you heard of any of these NATO countries actually building barracks and helping our troops with quality of life? Yes, sir, absolutely. We've got several nations that have already started executing that. Lithuania being being one of them. All of the Baltics have made offers to do some of this work and have started building if not facilities for the troops, facilities that we can operate out of. And the Poles have indicated a willingness along with a few others.
▶ 2:23:14Well, the last question is, how can this committee better support your efforts? Congressman, I'm extremely thankful for everything that the committee's done. I think you know, there's a couple of initiatives that we're working with our policy teammates on. Some of that is related to pre-positioned stocks and what the right amount is to allow rapid response and give the president more options in the event of a crisis. So, those are some of the areas I'd ask for help.
▶ 2:23:40General, your time is expired. Here, I recognize the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Sorenson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses today. I'd first like to take a moment to honor the 13 men and women who have been killed as part of our war against Iran. The thoughts of everyone in the state of Illinois are with their loved ones, their friends, and their communities. And to the 200 service members who are healing today, we wish them a speedy and full recovery.
▶ 2:24:06I'm proud that my home is just 1 mile as the eagle flies from the historic Rock Island Arsenal. One of the nation's largest and most My neighbors know the effects of war, but they also know the responsibility that we have to sustain and support war fighters and peacekeepers everywhere around the world. But today, things seem different.
▶ 2:24:30From some time now, we've been hearing that our munitions and interceptor stockpiles are no longer sufficient. While our defense industrial base is struggling to meet a wartime demand. But we also need to account for supporting our allies like Ukraine who is fighting for their survival today. question number one to to you, General.
▶ 2:24:54With missions in in Venezuela, in the Caribbean, the Eastern Pacific, now Iran, is it is it harder to support Ukraine when there are so many moving pieces and and rumors coming out of the White House about new postures and new theaters in in Cuba or Greenland?
▶ 2:25:11What does it mean for our munitions stockpile and our support for our allies in in Congressman, thanks for the for the you know, obviously every time we expend a munition, that's one less munition in the stockpile that needs to come off of a production line, but what I what I would say is we watch that very closely. We're monitoring it, and again, I can give you a little bit more detail on the classified session on what we think the the the impacts would would be over time.
▶ 2:25:41With respect to to support to Ukraine, OSW policy has been extremely supportive of my requests for continued support to Ukraine. You know, we take Ukrainian requirements, we filter those and validate them, we farm them out to either allies to fill or put them into pearl packages. And thus far, I can say that those pearl packages continue to be built and shopped around to our allies. So, European allies now are building new munition factories themselves.
▶ 2:26:08To what extent, if if at all, are we coordinating with our European allies with our American industrial base to make sure that we're integrating our sustainment and and our munitions efforts? Yes, sir. One of the one of the great strengths of the NATO alliance, which is kind of a boring wonky part of it, is that we have an extremely strong NATO standards process that develops standards for equipment and how it ought to operate and what the interoperability ought to be. So, I'm confident that that again is one of our strengths, even though it's a little bit wonky.
▶ 2:26:38My neighbors in Rock Island are are prepared to be part of that wonkiness. And we want to be part of the solution, so thank you. Mr. Zimmerman, I appreciate your testimony that you mentioned learning lessons from the battlefield as it relates to Ukraine. I'm so excited about SkyFoundry and the role that the Joint Manufacturing and Technology Center at Rock Island will play in it. How are you making sure that the lessons from Ukraine are actually getting to our organic industrial base?
▶ 2:27:08Congressman, it's it's vital that we do this, and I can tell you that since October, my team has been meeting with Ukrainians every week in in partnership with our services to look at the battlefield lessons learned that they they have accumulated and to make sure those can translate into real capability delivered to the war fighter. So, it's there's many stakeholders in this, and we're we're we're actively engaged on a continual basis. Could could we work together because I think that we need to be doing better.
▶ 2:27:36I mean, we have an incredible capability of 3D printing drones at Rock Island and ramping up capacity, but time is wasted if we don't have that quick coordination. So, I hope you can give me your word that we can prioritize this better. I would be happy to be in touch with you about that. Let's please be engaged. And with my remaining time, I I did want to talk about, you know, Congressman Messmer had brought it up. The Illinois National Guardsmen partnered with Poland since 1993, and we look to develop new partnership with Portugal.
▶ 2:28:06To to the General, could you talk a little bit about the importance of our partnership in Illinois with these two countries and expand on your remarks from Congressman Messmer. Yes, sir. Maybe I'll say it this way. I graduated from the United States Air Force Academy in 1993. And if I was a graduate who was in your National Guard, I would have been building a relationship over those 33 years since then with Polish officers and leaders. And so, you just can't replicate that.
▶ 2:28:30The the repeated deployments, the exchanges back and forth across the Atlantic really builds deep relationships and trust that that absolutely matters. And it builds readiness on both sides, right? The the Polish military is better because of that relationship, and our National Guard is better because of the training and the relationships that they have. I just had General Boyd from the Illinois National Guard in my office about a half hour ago and I appreciate that you align with him so well and that there's more that we can do together. Thank you so much and I yield back. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Guam, Mr.
▶ 2:29:01Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:29:03Assistant Secretary and General, thank you for your presence and in your statements. I really appreciate that. Regarding the drone warfare and rush during the Russian invasion with of Ukraine. General, you mentioned some lessons that we're learning and what is our our preparation now for future wars of those lessons that are we learned regarding drone warfare warfare? Yeah, Congressman, thanks for the question. You know, there's a there's a ton of lessons.
▶ 2:29:30I think that if I could summarize it in one way it would be that affordable mass has returned to the and you need a high quantity of of lower end capacity on the modern battlefield to generate the the combat effects. Whether it's in the air domain or as a substitute for artillery, these drones are making a tremendous impact and it's not just airborne drones. We've got unmanned vehicles that are on the ground doing everything from logistics to medevac to operating as mini tanks, if you will, and doing direct fire missions.
▶ 2:30:00So, there's a ton of things that we can learn. I would also say though that that doesn't obviate the need for higher end capabilities and those, you know, so the way I think about it is you need kind of a mix of high end capability and lower end capability. The the more expensive exquisite capability that can go after your most acute threats and then a high volume of things once that acute threat or that air defense system has been shut down bring mass back into the battlefield.
▶ 2:30:26So, that's how I think about it and draw the And are we sharing this information with Absolutely, Congressman. Absolutely. We are in constant contact with INDOPACOM through our policy teammates.
▶ 2:30:39Information flows to them as well, but there's direct linkages that from from our lessons learned enterprise into the And were you coordinating with CENTCOM on this issue prior to Operation Epic Uh sir, the the the lessons are constantly flowing. So, you know, I spent a lot of time in CENTCOM when I was there just a couple of years ago. We were already watching how things were evolving in Ukraine. I'm confident that that's continued. Thank you.
▶ 2:31:09And then to the Operation Epic Fury and we're talking about the ammunition situation as well. Tell me how you how you see the IBCS efforts of to help you control our ammunition situation. Well, the great thing about IBCS is that it allows integrated architecture that a variety of different capabilities can plug into allowing you to be more efficient in your in your overall defensive laydown.
▶ 2:31:37So, there absolutely is a connection to because of that battlefield efficiency to what your expenditure rate is and therefore what your projected requirement would be in any tactical situation. So, you know, I've I've been a fan of IBCS for a while. I think it is a great capability that we're bringing on board. We're going through some of that modernization now with our capabilities in US EUCOM. Very helpful. I know Poland's using it. Can you see the significance for Guam to have it?
▶ 2:32:06Sir, I'd leave that to Admiral Paparo to answer, but I would tell you it's it's been a great success for for us in all the places that I've seen it. Thank you very much. And also, sir, with title as Supreme Allied Commander of if Guam would be under attack would you see NATO invoking Article 5 to come to Guam's aid? Congressman, there's a specific carve out in the Washington Treaty that territories in the Pacific.
▶ 2:32:36It geographically constrains what the alliance is is covering. So, I certainly think it would be a policy and political discussion should that should that happen. But I know that whether Article 5 was triggered or not, many of our NATO allies would be interested in a multilateral response to assist the United States with defense of any territory no matter where it is. We'll work on that and thank you very much, General. Assistant Secretary, thank you so much. Thank you, Chairman. Gentleman yields back. Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from New Hampshire, Ms.
▶ 2:33:06Goodlander. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I'm grateful to my distinguished colleagues on this committee for having a hearing in which in an institution that doesn't always find common ground, we have very solid common ground when it comes to the issues that have been before us today.
▶ 2:33:28I want to first begin by joining my colleagues in expressing my heartbreak over the loss of 13 patriots service members who gave their lives to our country. We are praying every day for their families, for those who have been wounded and for those whose safety and success still on the front lines are constantly on our minds and in our hearts.
▶ 2:33:58I think it is worth reiterating some of the basic principles and commitments that have come out of this discussion today because our friends and our foes across the world from Warsaw to the Kremlin should hear loud and clear this committee's commitment to the NATO alliance this committee's commitment to our friend and ally Ukraine this committee's understanding that Vladimir Putin and Russia
▶ 2:34:29they're an adversary to the United States and you have both agreed with these basic propositions. They're important now more than ever to reiterate loud and clear. So, do I have your agreement, General, and I thank you for your distinguished service to our country, but you would agree with these basic principles that we've talked about I would, Congressman. Well, I thank you for that.
▶ 2:34:50I I I want to ask you about Operation Epic Fury and the basic question I have is were any of our NATO allies consulted before the president unilaterally launched this operation in Iran? Congresswoman, I would not be the one to answer that. That consultation would have happened at the political level. So, I'll I'll defer that.
▶ 2:35:18But on a military-to-military basis, were there any discussions or consultation in advance of the operation? Did we seek to secure any support from our NATO allies in advance of the strikes? In military-to-military channels, we did have some broad discussions without revealing the exact contours of the operation for operational security reasons and that allowed us to secure the access and basing that we had at the start of the conflict.
▶ 2:35:47In terms of consultation with our NATO was there any consultation? Congresswoman, my my answer will will reflect that that we did have some discussions but but in all in all instances, we will be endeavoring to preserve operational security. Sure. Okay. But the NATO alliance, you would agree, is important for our interests and important for the United States of America right now in the midst of this war in Iran.
▶ 2:36:17Congresswoman, the the judgment of the importance of the alliance is ultimately a political question. I would say at the military level, we're absolutely focused on our tasks that we've been given by the North Atlantic Council and the 32 heads of state and government, which is to deter deter and defend every inch of territory. But ultimately, it's a policy question as to what is the value of that that we bring together. Well, I think you've spoken compellingly about the importance of this alliance.
▶ 2:36:42Um I want to ask you about General, in your written testimony, you you testified to Russia being an enduring regional challenger. You you laid out the threats that Vladimir Putin poses to the United States homeland, to the American people. Can you speak about uh how his fortunes have shifted in in the two and a half weeks?
▶ 2:37:07What have been the operational impacts, if any, on Russia now having access to way more revenue than they did just a few short weeks ago?
▶ 2:37:19the with the just to be clear, with the administration's decision to loosen oil sanctions on Vladimir Putin. Congresswoman, what what I would say is, you know, the battlefield is a constant it's it's affected by a number of dynamics that happen. If Vladimir Putin is getting increased funding right now, I would say that has not yet manifested on the battlefield.
▶ 2:37:43The Ukrainians is a uh the Ukrainians have even been able to go on the offensive in a couple of areas. I can give you some of the reasons for that in the classified session, but the dynamics are constantly shifting. It's it's a complex battle space as you'd
▶ 2:37:57It is, but as a general matter, a windfall in revenue for Vladimir Putin is not good for the national security of the United States. I think that ultimately that's a policy question, Congressman. From a military perspective, if he puts it into the into the Russian military, it becomes more of a military problem for any of his adversaries and I'd just leave it at that from from my level. Well, my time's expired. Thank you I and I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Gentlelady yields back. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:38:30I I want to go to this issue this question that that on. I do think that removing the sanctions on Russian oil helps Vladimir Putin more than it helps America and and our partners. And I I I don't agree with that decision. I know neither of you made it, but uh but I want to be clear about this. It was the Biden administration that said India could buy as much oil as they wanted at any price that they wanted to from Russia.
▶ 2:39:01And had the Biden administration actually enforced the sanctions against the sale of Russian oil, especially the billions of dollars that um in in transactions with India, then I do believe that uh that the war in Ukraine would be over. And so it would it was Janet Yellen that said India could buy as much oil uh as they wanted from Russia at any price that they wanted.
▶ 2:39:27That That said, I do agree with the statement that has been made that lifting the sanctions um I I think that has been a strategic mistake. It's widely publicized that that Russia is helping Iran with targeting US troops right now, and let me tell you something helping Russia in any way, shape, form, or fashion it is is not good for for America. I'll I'll leave it at that. I want to go to you, General.
▶ 2:39:55You had a one of your one of your predecessors, General Breedlove, is someone I have a tremendous amount of respect for even though he is a graduate of Georgia Tech. Uh I know that you spent some time in Athens as I did and uh I'm glad cell phones weren't video cameras uh back in the in the late '80s, early But uh I was in the business school while you were in the history school, so maybe things were a little calmer over there.
▶ 2:40:21But one of the things General Breedlove has talked about with regard to NATO is the lack of a Black Sea strategy. uh I don't think the world recognizes just how important that small area of water is geographically. The Port of Odessa, uh arguably uh the most important one of the most important ports in the world with regard to food supply.
▶ 2:40:47Could you just speak to the Black Sea and how important that is just from the standpoint of global just the global food supply and the Port of Odessa. Uh sure, Congressman. I mean, I think there's a number of things about the Black Sea that make it extremely strategic.
▶ 2:41:03Uh there are as you mentioned the the the grain exports that come through the Black Sea and with a choke point in the Bosphorus that it's it's extremely fortunate that we've got a NATO ally that controls that and is able to to to help us with ensuring access to the Black Sea when when appropriate. Uh I'd also say the Black Sea has a number of energy resources within it.
▶ 2:41:27Several of our allies have offshore capabilities in their or offshore resources in their exclusive economic zones that they're concerned about in the Black Sea. And of course it's a it's a line of approach to the Caucasus and to the to the Middle East. So there's a number of reasons why the Black Sea is a central key terrain. I I I get to this, Mr. Chairman Zimmerman, because I just do I do believe that any when it comes need to needs to have discussions about the Black Sea.
▶ 2:41:56Obviously that would include Turkey who has done a pretty straight job, no no pun intended, with the Montreux Accords. I think they've followed it to the letter um as best anybody could. And I I I mean, geographically that part of the world and and the Port of Odessa especially is extremely important to the global food supply.
▶ 2:42:19I do want to mention that um the the Baltic State Initiative, Secretary Zimmerman, I understand that uh Department of Defense did not request funding for that. Can you speak to that issue briefly?
▶ 2:42:35Uh Congressman, my understanding is that uh that the Congress has appropriated and authorized uh 200 million for the next year and we are in the process I believe I believe General Grinkevich's team has put together some SSCI proposals for that and we're in the we're in the process of
▶ 2:42:55Thank you for that. I I want to I want to finish with this. I do believe the NATO alliance has been good for the world. Uh but I do believe that in recent years that alliance has become way too dependent on the United States of America to cover their own territory. And I don't want our NATO partners to think that those of us who support the NATO alliance are not well aware of the non-tariff trade barriers that the European Union continues to put in against US industry.
▶ 2:43:23And the European Union needs to understand this and those countries that make up the European Union. Their European Union deforestation regulations and the non-tariff trade barriers that they continue to put in to the detriment of the United States of America are unacceptable. And if they want to be a partner then they need to be a good partner, not a bad partner. Thank you, gentlemen. Mr.
▶ 2:43:46Chairman, as a just a process announcement, we have two members that we're going to recognize and at the conclusion of these two members I won't recognize any more members in the public setting. So for those members in their offices and their staffs, if your members want to ask questions you will need to direct them to the classified portion of this hearing which will be held immediately after this in room 2212. And with that, recognize the gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:44:13General Grinkevich, um are NATO allies currently participating in support of US efforts related to Iran? Congressman, NATO allies are providing access, basing, and overflight in support of our operations.
▶ 2:44:28Are they directly participating in any of the kinetic actions? Uh no, sir, not to my knowledge. And prior to US military action, were those allies consulted on a potential follow following support requirement? Congressman, I'll defer to policy on that. I did not have any discussions with them on that. But you as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO did not engage in any of those discussions with other militaries. I did not. Okay.
▶ 2:44:59And um can you tell me a little bit about what is the current Russian budget, military Uh Congressman, the current Russian military budget is it's difficult to judge, but it's somewhere between 7 and 10% of Russian GDP. And what is that in real numbers? Uh sorry, I'd have to I'd have to check. I don't have it off the top of my head, Mr. Chairman, do you know what that number is? I think Russian GDP is uh is a 2 trillion.
▶ 2:45:302 trillion.
▶ 2:45:30so 10% of that would be 200 billion,
▶ 2:45:34200 billion. Okay. And then um do you know how much uh money additional money Russia is earning from the lifting of sanctions uh for its oil? Uh I can get back to you with that number. I don't know it. Great.
▶ 2:45:50Estimates are it's about 150 million a and so for the 30-day uh time period we're talking about and to and I I'm a lawyer by trade and not a a math guy, so I think that's you know three four and a half uh billion So um and how much of that military effort is actually being applied in in in Ukraine?
▶ 2:46:21Congressman, I think the vast majority is being applied in Ukraine. I would say that um that in my personal opinion and probably shared by many that the additional revenue that the Russians gained from the sanctions relief, the vast majority of that will probably go towards operations in Ukraine as Secretary Zimmerman, as a Assistant Secretary responsible for international security affairs, was coalition building
▶ 2:46:51for potential contingencies like in the Strait of Hormuz incorporated into the Department's planning? Congressman, we plan for a range of scenarios. If you're specifically asking if we spoke to partners ahead, we we undertook a great deal of operational security in Operational security that translates into from military speaking to normal speak is like no. You didn't speak to them.
▶ 2:47:20We did We We did have some conversations. Perhaps we can talk more in the next session. All right. And did um did the Department anticipate uh NATO or partner cooperation in our in the operations in in the the Middle East currently in thought that there may there would be several NATO allies who would be uh lending a hand in terms
▶ 2:47:51of the that we discussed earlier and things of that nature. But not in the in the kinetic sense. The the Department did not anticipate or want that. Is that Is that accurate? Uh perhaps we can talk more in the next session about that. All right. Um Now the president seems to be asking for uh for uh NATO military assistance. Is that Is that accurate?
▶ 2:48:19Uh I think he's he's asked for warships to help the free flow of energy and commerce through the strait. And uh do we have any of our NATO allies that have currently Uh we are in conversations with them. Right now, as of this moment, have any of our NATO allies signed up for it? I maybe we can talk more in the next session. Okay.
▶ 2:48:44Well, I I look forward to learning a lot more in the in the in the closed session cuz I'm not learning a tremendous amount right now. I would say I would posit this that if we want our NATO partners to join us, it's probably worthwhile asking them ahead of time before we engage in a conflict and on the back end say, "Hey, we would really like you to participate." But, I look forward to learning more in the closed session and thank you. I yield back with that. Gentleman yields back.
▶ 2:49:13Gentleman, I recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Dr. McCormick. Congratulations on making it through the day with us today. Thank you for being Thank you for being a fine Georgian. Your predecessor was was a great guy and and by the way, shared one of the greatest titles of all time. I don't care what military you're in, what service, what branch, being the supreme allied commander is just kind of a cool name. Very jealous about that, but I know you're going to do a great job, especially representing Georgia.
▶ 2:49:42One of one of the most pertinent questions I could ask when I had my first hearing with General Cavoli. And I asked him straight up, I said, "Is this war in His answer was without hesitation, "Yes, Would your answer be the same? It would be. Okay, great. And I'm going to throw out some things that I want you to add to what I'm going to say. Combined GDP of Europe and the United States about 30 trillion.
▶ 2:50:09As you stated before, Russia has roughly a $2 trillion GDP, 2.1 approximately. Texas has a $2.7 trillion GDP and they're not even the biggest economy in the United States. In other words, economically we dominate them. Militarily we put about a trillion dollars into our military and it's going to go up. They spend about 200 billion as you said, 10% of a uh $2 trillion GDP. They're learning quickly.
▶ 2:50:37They've made huge advancements since the beginning of the war when they lost about half of their armor in the first year to a third-rate army and about 500,000 casualties in that first year and it's just accelerated from there. I think they're getting better. That's my understanding. I think Ukraine has learned tremendously. They're becoming much more savvy, but so is Russia, quite frankly. The question is, where are we at right now as far as how we can accelerate the conclusion of this war. And I know we have some sanction issues. I know we have a lot of times we refuse to pay the price of war.
▶ 2:51:07We think that we're going to avoid public opinion by by paying higher prices at the pump because it will look a little bit less as if the public opinion will shift. But, my opinion is get it over fast, sometimes ugly, but end the war. We learn in command and staff and advanced war college when we're in the military, end the war quickly. Use the assets you have. By dragging on warfare, we usually lose public opinion and then we lose the war. I use Afghanistan for example.
▶ 2:51:34$2 trillion, 20 years, 2,462 lives to give it back to the same people we took it from. And that's not counting all the lives and limbs, brain injuries, and the years we spent away from our families. What do we need to do to finish this war right now? And what lessons have we learned from the Ukrainians on how to fight this war?
▶ 2:51:52Congressman, starting with the the second part of your question on the lessons that we've learned from the Ukrainians and just from observing the conflict in general and and quite frankly observing the conflicts in the in the Middle East from the 12-day war and how Israel I mean the the the application of affordable mass of drone technology on the battlefield is something that we're going to have to contend with. They've also learned about the importance of the electromagnetic spectrum, jamming.
▶ 2:52:18It's a dense electronic warfare environment where very few things are able to uh to operate unless they've been appropriately hardened. So, there's a there's a a number of lessons there. There's also some less obvious lessons like the importance of being able to do things like gain and maintain air superiority, which neither side has been able to do in in Ukraine. And so, I think I think there's a whole a very rich palette that we'll be studying for years to come as we as we try to bring these lessons into our formations and and fully bring them into our into our doctrine.
▶ 2:52:47On on things that we could do to bring the war to conclusion, I'll tell you I've been very proud to be part of the president's team and the military working groups that's looking to bring an end to the war to Ukraine. My focus has been on trying to set the conditions for a ceasefire. If a ceasefire was achieved as part of that peace agreement, how would we implement it? How would we ensure the sides are separated? How would we reduce the risk of the war restarting by having the appropriate protocols in place when our violations occurred? So, that's been a key part of our focus at US EUCOM.
▶ 2:53:17Okay, a fairly vague answer, but I get it and I understand how we're constrained by our answers, but I would say, would you agree that Starlink and the denial to Russia on that front and the space technology we're starting to apply now is affecting the battlefield? I would, Congressman. I'd be happy to give you more detail.
▶ 2:53:34Yeah, I'm excited about that and I think I think looking at the future, I think once again, don't take anything off the Finish this with ferocity, with domination like we can. We're the United States of America. We are the most powerful military in the world. If we want it to happen, it's going to happen. I'm not saying direct conflict, but I mean we intervene, we bring our force to bear economically, militarily, through sanctions, through any means possible. We can end this war without the great conflict.
▶ 2:53:59Putin will not compromise unless he feels like he's at a disadvantage and right now I don't think he's feeling it to the extent he needs to. thank you for your service. I'm excited about the future with you guys at the helm and I think we're going to work great together. With that, I yield. Gentleman yields back. Uh this concludes the public portion of our hearing. We will reconvene in approximately 10 minutes at 12:45 in room 2212 for the classified portion. We are adjourned.