▶ 0:14:21on science, space, and technology will now come to order. Good morning everyone. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time. Welcome to today's hearing entitled a review of the president's budget request for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration year 2027. I recognize myself now for five minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:14:50Just three weeks ago, the world watched as Artemis 2 lifted off from the launchpad 39B at Kennedy Space Center. Over the course of nearly 10 days, the mission carried four astronauts around the moon and back, taking them deeper into space than any humans had ever traveled before. I was very proud to be in Florida for this all inspiring launch.
▶ 0:15:18I was also very honored to be in Houston to welcome the crew back home. The mission was the result of years of planning and was almost flawless in its maybe except for the toilet. For more than two decades, this committee has advocated for continuity of purpose, specifically to enable NASA to carry out programs of this size and this complexity.
▶ 0:15:45In February, this committee unanimously reported a bipartisan NASA reauthorization bill to the House that maintains that continuity of purpose across the agency. I look very much forward to working with ranking member Loofrren and our counterparts in the Senate to get a bill to the president's desk very soon.
▶ 0:16:07Last month, NASA hosted an event called ignition where the agency made several announcement reg announcements regarding changes to the Aremis architecture and other agency initiatives. Among these announcements was a commitment to develop a crude base at the moon's south pole to significantly increase the cadence of robotic lunar missions and to conduct a nuclear demonstration mission to Mars.
▶ 0:16:34Several of these initiatives represent an exciting future for our space program. But we would not fulfill our role as authorizers if we did not gain an understanding of the purpose and the price of such missions as well as their impacts on other programs within the NASA portfolio. During NASA's ignition event, the agency announced its intention to build and install a new government module on the International Space Station.
▶ 0:17:03It would then encourage commercial companies to attach to this new module. This is a significant departure from the commercial low Earth orbit development program that NASA has pursued to date. This new proposal must be supported by budget, technical, and policy analysis as well as discussions with international and commercial partners.
▶ 0:17:25We also must understand the timeline over which this new approach will unfold and how that impacts NASA's presence in low Earth orbit. The Office of Management and Budgets proposed uh budget for fiscal year 2027 requests 18.8 billion for NASA, roughly a 23% cut from amounts appropriated by Congress in fiscal year 2026.
▶ 0:17:53Many of the proposed budget cuts were rejected by Congress previously, and I am confident that they're going to be rejected again. Both the president and Congress have provided explicit direction for NASA to undertake a range of activities from exploration and science to aeronautics research. We must ensure that NASA is funded at a level that allows it to pursue those missions.
▶ 0:18:19I simply do not believe that this budget proposal is capable of supporting what President Trump himself has directed the agency to accomplish over the course of his two terms, nor what Congress is d has directed by law. To be clear, I'm a conservative Republican. I am a budget hawk. Our nation is nearly 39 trillion in debt. We must address this alarming situation and soon.
▶ 0:18:48But we must be smart in how we do so. Shortchanging NASA is simply not smart. We face competition from China across all aspects of space activity. China aims to send astronauts to the lunar surface before the end of the decade.
▶ 0:19:06If we do not carefully address the future of NASA's activities in low Earth orbit, the Chinese space station could become the only human tended platform and the only option for countries seeking to collaborate on microgravity research. China also conducted several impressive science missions and plans for more.
▶ 0:19:28We must ask whether this proposed budget maintains United States civil and commercial space dominance or if we risk seeding that leadership to our adversary China. Only through Congress, our commercial space sector and the administration working together can we ensure continued US leadership in space.
▶ 0:19:51I look forward to learning more about the administrator's plans, including what he discussed at NASA's ignition event last month. So, I want to thank you, Mr. Administrator, for appearing before us today. Uh, and we look forward to your testimony. So, now I would like to recognize a ranking member, Miss Lofrren from California, uh, for her opening statement.
▶ 0:20:14Well, uh, thank you, Chairman Babin, for today's hearing, uh, and the budget request for NASA. I want to give a special welcome to administrator Isaacman who of course we know is newly minted in his role for only four months. Uh I really appreciate the passion and the vigor that you're bringing to your service and I look forward uh to our discussion on NASA's future.
▶ 0:20:36With the thrilling Artemis 2 mission still fresh in our minds, NASA gave us a taste of an inspiring bold and bright future for the agency. I want to congratulate you, administrator, and all of NASA and its industry and international partners on OTM 2's success, which was a proud and uplifting moment for America. At least from the outside, everything appeared to go smoothly.
▶ 0:21:03An outcome uh that rests on the grit, blood, sweat, and likely tears of employees, thousands of employees. These workers sacrificed attending children's birthdays, anniversaries, family vacations to put in the demanding work required to prepare Artemis 2 for its lunar journey. And the exploration ground support team deserves a loud shout out and our thanks.
▶ 0:21:28However, on day three of the mission, while Integrity's crew were 99,900 statute miles from Earth, preparing for their lunar science observations, the president and Russ vote released the fiscal year 2027 budget request.
▶ 0:21:46As the chairman has noted and like the 2026 request, OM once again tries to argue that NASA and the United States will continue to lead in space and earth science, human exploration, aeronautics, and space technology while all but uh exploration would see draconian cuts. Cuts totaling 5.6 billion or 23% from the fiscal year 2026 enacted level uh is not wise.
▶ 0:22:14These reductions do not exactly send a welcome home message to the Aremis 2 crew or to the NASA workforce for that matter. Uh the request the 2027 request for NASA I think was largely locked down before you, Mr. Administrator, assumed your position, but it should uh come as no surprise that we have concerns here in the science committee. Exploration would see disproportionate increases under this proposal. The rest of NASA would not.
▶ 0:22:43uh slashing space and earth science, aeronautics, and space technology while our society increasingly dis depends on space assets and services to function. That's just not a winning strategy. Um after all, the aerospace and aviation industry contributed 74 billion positive manufacturing trade balance in 2024. Yet, the request would cut aeronautics by 35%.
▶ 0:23:10and attempting to zero out the office of stem engagement which is authorized in law by the way uh when we have this golden opportunity to build on the inspiration of Artemis 2 to engage students in STEM education and careers that just doesn't make any sense. I fully expect as the chairman has mentioned uh Congress to reject this request as we did in fiscal year 2026.
▶ 0:23:35Uh yet, as our Democratic staff reported last week in great detail, NASA did not wait for Congress to act. NASA took premature and misguided actions to implement the fiscal year 2026 request before Congress acted on a fullear appropriation.
▶ 0:23:53I hope today's discussion uh reaffirms the importance of respecting Congress's role in shaping the AY's direction and abiding by the decisions that Congress makes about how appropriated funds are spent. Now, while uh today's uh hearing uh is primarily on the budget proposal, that's not the only question about NASA's future.
▶ 0:24:15In late March, just about a month ago, NASA unveiled an extensive array of new initiatives titled Ignition to include a moon base, changes to the Aremis architecture, a potential new approach for low Earth orbit operations following the end of ISS, a series of new science initiatives, a nuclearpowered spacecraft to Mars.
▶ 0:24:37I hope to hear more about these activities because while they sound interesting and they sound ambitious, I'm not aware that we've yet seen the plans or cost or schedule estimates for them. They weren't included in OM's uh budget request. Uh so, um I'm hoping we can be further enlightened. They are an ambitious and exciting proposal. Uh Mr. Mr. Chairman, before I yield, I would like to an ask unanimous consent to enter into the record our Democratic staff report.
▶ 0:25:08Without objection,
▶ 0:25:09I would note that all of the activities described in this report occurred before the current administrator was in his position. It was not anything that he did. And I would close with this. Uh, Mr. Chairman, as you have said yourself, you are a conservative Republican from Texas. I'm not, but we see this the same way. and I'm hopeful that we can work together and make sure that our country uh remains in the lead uh when it comes to space and I yield back. Mr.
▶ 0:25:37Chairman, I'd like to thank the ranking member. And now let us let me introduce our witness today. Our witness today of course is our fourmonth uh longevity uh doing a great job I think so far and is Mr. Jared Isaacman uh our new NASA administrator. I want to thank you for joining us today, sir. And I'd like to recognize you [clears throat] now for a five-minute opening statement.
▶ 0:26:06Thank you, Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Loofrren, and members of the committee. I am honored to speak before you today to provide an update on the state of the National Aeronautic and Space Administration and to present the president's budget request for fiscal year 2027. Now, on July 29th, 1958, NASA was created to undertake and achieve the near impossible. And on July 20th, 1969, when Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walked on the moon, that's exactly what we did.
▶ 0:26:33In [snorts] the decades since, American Ingenuity was on display as the shuttle program took flight, the International Space Station was constructed, [snorts] and telescopes, probes, and Martian rovers were launched to help unlock the secrets of the universe. The last two decades are a different story. [clears throat and cough] The GAO's 2025 assessment of major NASA projects identified roughly 15 billion in cost overrun since 2009.
▶ 0:26:57Just as an example, Dragonfly was initially proposed 6 years ago at $850 million for development. We are optimistic it will launch in 2028 at a cost of 3.4 billion. Our flagship XPlane, the X59, was conceived eight years ago as a $468 million program with a first flight expected in January of 2022.
▶ 0:27:19The program to date is close to 800 million and first flight occurred in late 2025, only recently resuming The future enhancements, the SLS rocket, referred to as block 1B, which is a performance upgrade to co-manifest cargo that industry is already capable of supporting at lower cost, required the mobile launcher 2 and the exploration upper stage. ML2 was awarded in 2019 on a $383 million contract for delivery in March of 2023.
▶ 0:27:49The ML2 program cost was on track to $1.8 billion with years more to go. Similarly, EUS the exploration upper stage began with a contract value of 962 million. It has grown to over 2 billion and the inspector general assessed SLS block 1B would likely reach 5.7 billion. Of course, we are absolutely riding a high at this moment. The nation and the world paused as four brave astronauts on Artemis 2 flew around the moon. NASA made the headlines we were supposed to make.
▶ 0:28:18We showed the world the moon again and we showed humanity earth again. I want to congratulate the crew of Artemis 2, the NASA workforce, our contractors and partners for delivering this moment and for all that will inevitably come next. As President Trump so correctly said when speaking to the crew from space today, you have made history and made all of America really proud. You really are modern-day pioneers. The pioneering spirit championed by the president has breathed new life in our country's effort to master the stars.
▶ 0:28:48But for all the Artemis 2 mission has accomplished, how we arrived at it was far from perfect. And the decisions of previous administrations that led to these def deficiencies deserve some careful reflection. Almost the entirety of the SLS program has repurposed decades old space shuttle hardware. I certainly understand why the shuttle program was ending and it was very important at the time to look after the industrial base. I will also say that was at a time when we did not have a geopolitical competitor challenging America in the high ground of space.
▶ 0:29:17But perpetuating the past does not help us realize a better future. Even after over 100 billion of taxpayer funding to date and most recent and successful Aremis 2 mission, we would not have launched again until late 2028 with the aim of putting astronauts on the moon under the previous plan. A plan with no hope of achieving this national imperative. You do not fly rockets like this every three plus years and expect success. Further, you do not make each vehicle a work of art by materially changing the configuration.
▶ 0:29:46You also do not build a base in orbit above the moon when the scientists, the engineers, the astronauts, and certainly the spaceloving community want to be on the surface of the moon, which is already very hard to achieve. So, like many, I want to see more missions of science and discovery. Under the previous administration, NASA with the support of Congress rightfully canled the Mars sample return mission that was conceived to cost up to four billion and in just a few years ballooned to over 10 billion with two billion in taxpayer funds that have already been spent.
▶ 0:30:16This is not good capital allocation or execution and adding dozens of other inform informulation or life extended science missions alongside it does not necessarily make things better. American exceptionalism is being challenged in the high ground of space. To win, we cannot establish programs that are designed to be too big to fail, but at the same time too costly to succeed. Nor should it be throwing more money at the problem, but rather fixing the problems and contracting concentrating resources on the mission and delivering outcomes.
▶ 0:30:45The president's fiscal year 27 budget alongside the resources in the working family tax cut act focus the agency on these priorities. Return to the moon, increase launch cadence, and land American astronauts on the surface by 2028. consistent with the directive laid out in executive order 14369 ensuring American space superiority which was issued by President Trump last December. In parallel, build with industry a moon base.
▶ 0:31:10This includes landers, rovers, power and communication, tech demonstrations so we can master the skills needed for future crude missions to Mars alongside all the scientific payloads those systems can carry. Ignite the orbital and lunar economy. work alongside industry to expand commercial astronaut payload and modernization opportunities on the space station, send demand signals for landers and rovers in support of a moon base, and transition to one or multiple commercial space stations by 2030.
▶ 0:31:38We have already awarded private astronaut missions five, six, and seven. In that regard, the budget supports the Nancy Grace Roman telescope that will launch at the end of 2026 with a 100 times the field of view of a Hubble, a thousand times the scan rate.
▶ 0:31:51We will launch Dragonfly, the nuclearpowered octacopter to Saturn's moon of Titan in 2028, along with a nuclearpower and propulsion demonstration that includes a scientific payload, bringing billions in taxpayer investments from decades of failed programs into real capability in space and by 2030 deliver surface power to the moon. We do presently inhabit just one planet and understanding Earth science is paramount for and it's paramount for agriculture, industry, and natural disaster response.
▶ 0:32:19We do value this science and intend to work with industry to get after this data more affordably. The president's budget supports investments in aeronautics that will advance civil, commercial, and national security aviation, especially next generation air transportation systems for safer air traffic control. We're rebuilding core competencies at NASA, moving the work of thousands of contractors to civil servants, freeing up hundreds of millions in resources in support of NASA objectives. And inherent in everything we do at NASA is inspiration.
▶ 0:32:48It does not come necessarily from pamphlets or flyers, but from missions like Aremis, landing astronauts on the moon, Xplanes, and breathtaking images from space telescopes and rovers, moments that inspire children to dress up as astronauts for Halloween and grow up to contribute to humankind's greatest adventure. I have communicated to the NASA workforce across every center I have visited, in town halls and in letters.
▶ 0:33:09If we can concentrate the resources entrusted to us on the needlemoving objectives, why we exist as an agency while clearing away needless bureaucracy, obstacles, and policies that impede progress and unleash the brilliant minds at NASA, then returning to the moon and building a lunar base will be pale in comparison to what we can achieve in the years ahead. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:33:29You're welcome. Thank you. Uh, I'd like to recognize myself for five minutes uh for questions. Uh, Administrator Isaacman, first very quickly, if you don't mind, when will NASA submit its fiscal year 26 spin plan to the
▶ 0:33:46Uh, Mr. Chairman, my uh my understanding is NASA did wrap up that process uh in early April and it's with review in the administration. Um, I'm hopeful it's uh it's presented uh shortly, sir.
▶ 0:33:57Okay. Uh it's it's impossible to fully assess this budget request without knowing you know how much uh uh each program project and activity are going to be uh or what that we received last year particularly given the disparity between the uh president's budget request and the newly proposed ignition activities. Okay. [snorts]
▶ 0:34:16Uh we just witnessed an amazing Artemis 2 mission. Um, and I I can't it's hard for me to even even describe how how proud I was of our our our agency, our country, and and and what and the these u these astronauts and the the entire team. Yet, the administration is once again proposing transitioning away from SLS and Orion, even without alternative operational systems.
▶ 0:34:44At this present time, the president tasked NASA with returning to the moon by 2028. If HLS and SLS and Orion commercial alternatives continue to be delayed, what what are you going to to to be doing to ensure that you meet the president's direction and you said recently that you'd probably be out of a job if you don't deliver. And I don't want to see that happen. Mr. Administrator, we went too long without a permanent administrator. So, if you
▶ 0:35:13Sure, Mr. Mr. Chairman, uh first of all, I I agree with you completely. If we're going to go through the trouble of building a moon base, we better be able to send astronauts there with with great frequency on it. So, uh we have not uh cancelled or done anything uh with, you know, with the SLS program other than to standardize it so we can increase launch cadence. So, that amazing rocket that we all just uh witnessed uh launch just weeks ago, we can see with greater frequency.
▶ 0:35:38So trying to, as I mentioned in my my remarks, not turn each one into a work of art because it's hard enough to do it at the current rate. Standardize, launch faster. We're added a mission with SLS in 2027 to demonstrate the interoperability of the Orion spacecraft with the landers. So in 2028, we can protect for potentially two additional SLS launches uh for crude astronauts to the surface of moon before our arrival.
▶ 0:36:03We also put a demand signal out to industry for two different pathways so we can assure crude access to the moon base that we are building. I have no doubt from my interactions with industry the SLS players are all coming together and that will likely be one of the pathways almost assuredly Orion as it is the only crude vehicle that we have right now that can bring astronauts back from the moon.
▶ 0:36:23Okay. I certainly hope you'll finish the second mobile uh u mobile launch platform as well that is nearing completion and ensure that SLS has an upper stage uh to meet the 130 ton to orbit requirement directed by statute and I look forward to hearing your backup plans to ensure that we meet the president's direction. Uh, next.
▶ 0:36:42[clears throat] Earlier this year, you announced a new workforce directive uh to increase NASA's internal expertise by converting thousands of technical, engineering, and operational roles from contractor positions to civil servant positions. I've seen firsthand how NASA, JSC, civil servants play such an important role in providing institutional knowledge and core capabilities.
▶ 0:37:04I've also seen how robust how a robust contractor workforce, the envy of the world quite frankly, uh, can provide NASA with agile and cost-effective solutions to evolving NASA needs. As you implement this new workforce directive, how are you planning to balance those priorities and ensure that you don't swing the pendulum too far in one direction?
▶ 0:37:28Mr. Chairman, I completely agree with you on that assessment. It takes the contributions of the civil servant workforce, our contractors, our commercial and international partners to undertake the endeavors that we are we are pursuing right now like putting American astronauts back on the moon so we can stay. Uh that said, I will say in my first month or so when I made it a point to visit every one of the centers, uh hear from the workforce directly, host town halls, establish inboxes, receive feedback. I was surprised that greater than 40,000 of NASA's workforce is essentially full-time contractors.
▶ 0:37:58They don't support anyone else. They work exclusively for NASA. This is at an expense of over $4 billion a year to to some various staffing related agencies. And I'll tell you, sir, they're not doing that for for free. Now, some of these roles absolutely are best served as contractors. They're outside of our core competencies, and we rely on them heavily, and we're grateful for that service. But some examples, sir, are mission control in Houston.
▶ 0:38:22Uh, I do think a core competency for NASA is to be able to build rockets, launch rockets, and support rockets when they're underway in space at mission control and some engineering support staff. Uh, and that we should look for opportunities to bring them into civil service and they and they welcome that. Now, I'm not making the picks here, Mr. Chairman. I'll tell you, I've delegated this down to the center directors.
▶ 0:38:42So those at JSC, KSC, Marshall Space Flight Center, those are the center directors, the local leadership that are determining what is our core competency that we need at NASA to ensure that we win in the high ground of space. And these are uh these are the uh the personnel that they are identifying,
▶ 0:38:57Okay, I'm out of time. Uh I have a couple more questions and perhaps maybe later u but I'd like to uh to go to the uh ranking member for her questions. We will alternate between majority and minority here. So, uh, Miss Lofran, if you you're recognized.
▶ 0:39:15Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, uh, thank you for, uh, your testimony, uh, administrator, as well as, um, the energy that you're bringing here to the agency, which is admired and appreciated. Um, I want to draw your attention to an email that we've put up on the screen. Um the Democratic staff of the committee obtained it and it was put in our report that I sent you earlier.
▶ 0:39:42Uh it's an email from the project manager of uh NASA's electrified powertrain flight demonstration project or EPFD to the EPFD project team that was sent uh May 30th, 2025, obviously before you were here. uh you may want to I think you've read it before, but I want to read the first three sentences of the email for the record because I think they tell the whole story.
▶ 0:40:07Uh on the very same day that um NASA's full fiscal year 2026 budget proposal was released, the project manager writes to her staff, "Dear EPFD family, I'm the bearer of sad news. The president's budget and OM have zeroed out EPFD for fiscal year 26 and beyond. The agency has requested an orderly shutdown of the project by September 30th. Mr.
▶ 0:40:35Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to put this email into the record.
▶ 0:40:39Without objection,
▶ 0:40:40Mr. Isacman, this email is really smoking gun evidence that NASA implemented the fisc year presidential budget request last year without congressional approval. Now, it wasn't just EPFD. It was not just the Aerommonics research mission uh director where EPFD was located. It happened all across NASA. Now, the timeline matters here. As I said earlier, you weren't in charge. You didn't make this decision.
▶ 0:41:06And I won't ask you uh to uh defend the decisions of your predecessors or discuss them. But I want to make sure that as you move forward in this agency that you will adhere to the law. What Congress has enacted. Uh doing uh adhering to the proposal is not what the law requires.
▶ 0:41:32Um the law requires that um NASA adhere to what Congress passes. And I think there was damage done to the agency uh last last year um that even though Congress acted to fully fund the agency, the damage was done. So can you tell us how you're going to I know it's an awkward position as administrator or part of the team, the Trump team, and I understand that.
▶ 0:41:59I respect that, but how are we going to uh have confidence that you will adhere to what Congress passes, not what Russ vote Well, uh, Congresswoman, I appreciate the question. Thank you for showing me the email. And also, I I did have an opportunity to review the report as well. First, let me just say from the get-go, of course, we will always follow the law at NASA. And even if certain matters took place prior to uh when I was confirmed, I believe in extreme ownership.
▶ 0:42:25I did go and research uh the various um uh positions that were taken in your report so that I could have a greater understanding of it. And what I could share with you, ma'am, with respect to this situation specifically, perhaps the project manager uh used some incorrect wording in the first sentence or two, is that it has been a long-standing practice at NASA to always adjust uh and I what I would refer to as just a prioritization of resources based on the lowest of either the House, the Senate, or the the PBR
▶ 0:42:55mark. the head of the aeronautics research directorate made the call on this one that based on a prioritization of resources did not feel this was a this was a program that should continue going forward. Uh, of course after FY26 appropriations, it was resumed. But I'll tell you, even having conversations, they did decide to revise in some respects based on the merits of this project relative to others in aeronautics if this is something we should invest in long term.
▶ 0:43:20And I do think, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, there are times where NASA's capital allocation execution has not been great and hasn't served those that are uh hasn't served the taxpayers well or the outcomes that we're trying to achieve within the agency.
▶ 0:43:33Well, I just uh as the chairman has indicated, we are uh unified here on both sides of the aisle and supporting the agency, but we expect a collaboration on these issues and um not um action that is outside of what Congress uh is authorizing and funding through the appropriations process. Let me just ask one other thing.
▶ 0:43:56Uh the professional staff on our side of the aisle has been asking your staff um which missions or projects in the budget proposal uh would be cancelled and we have we've been told that uh your staff your professional can't tell us that. We need to know what that is.
▶ 0:44:17Um because we need to understand a list of the new missions or projects that the budget uh request uh would cancel in order for us to do a full and professional analysis of that. So can we get that from your staff, please?
▶ 0:44:32So ma'am, absolutely. We're happy to make time available to review everything that's within NASA's plan. And I just make my commitment here. I I am here at NASA for the mission. So if there is a program that is underperforming, not meeting expectations, or not in the best resources, I can assure you and promise you that I will overcommunicate and make the case for why those resources should be spent on something else that better serves NASA's mission.
▶ 0:44:55Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is
▶ 0:44:58Yes, ma'am. Thank you very [clears throat] much. And now I'd like to recognize Representative Baird from
▶ 0:45:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman. and and thank you uh Mr. Administrator for being here. We appreciate you sharing uh the technology and the desires and the budget requests that are necessary.
▶ 0:45:21You know, I think u I really think that we learn a lot from the missions that we go to Mars or the moon or whatever because there's side benefits and we learn about uh metals and all the kinds of technology that that plays into the private sector. So um so we appreciate we appreciate you being here.
▶ 0:45:48So I guess my first question deals with sorry about that. So in in your testimony, you noted that understanding earth sciences is paramount. Yet the physical 27 budget for the science that was submitted to Congress is over 50% smaller than the funding Congress enacted in 26.
▶ 0:46:19So can you help me u and the committee understand where will you expect to cut the savings or cut the cost and the savings where they will come from within the science directed?
▶ 0:46:31Yes, Congressman. So uh we'd be happy to review and set up a session with you or your team to go mission by mission. What I would say generally speaking most of the cuts related to missions that were in formulation. Uh and that is because we believe that we are at a time now where industry is maturing capabilities.
▶ 0:46:48I mean, you have constellation providers that are printing off satellites these days that can incorporate new instruments that they're in the future may be a better, more affordable way to get after the data so that NASA can apply resources to initiatives like Nancy [snorts] Grace Roman telescope or Dragonfly that no one else in the world is capable of doing. So, you have informulation missions and then you have those that have been up for a very long time that have moved past their or in some cases move past their general useful life. What I can assure you sir there are no gaps in our earth science capabilities.
▶ 0:47:19I mean I can rattle off you know 10 missions grace ISAT LANCAT you have multiple LANCATs plus additional LANCATs that are coming NISAR pace we are continuing to maintain a robust portfolio of earth science satellites up there to avoid a gap but we are acknowledging that at some point in the year in the in the future there is probably a more efficient transition to commercial satellites for earth observations and space weather. Sir,
▶ 0:47:45so that leads me to my next question, which is with the with the increased commercialization of space activities, what role do you believe NASA should play regarding the collection and the dissemination of Earth science information by the commercial providers? So, how do you fit in and and how do you see that responsibility?
▶ 0:48:04That's a that's a great question, Congressman, and one that often comes up, I would say, on the broader NASA mission, which is there is always a place for NASA in this. We should constantly be re-calibrating our mission to doing the near impossible, what others are incapable of doing
▶ 0:48:18uh and freeing up what we've already mastered to industry where competitive dynamics can improve the quality and capability of the service and ideally make it available at lower cost. And we and and I would say sir, we've just witnessed this on full display. You know, when you think about it, sir, six years ago, if we wanted to put an American astronaut in space, we had to book it through Russia. And now we've already got NASA Crew 12 up there. We just saw three American astronauts and Canadian astronaut go around the moon. Amazing things happen in a very short period of time when NASA's at its best.
▶ 0:48:48We will apply those skills to commercial providers and we are talking to multiple through RFIs we've issued to ensure they have the capabilities to provide continuity of this earth science data where applicable uh so we can free up resources to do more of what I just I can certainly appreciate that that not having to depend on adversaries for some of the needs that we have. I'm going to change to one more question.
▶ 0:49:12I got about 53 seconds, but you know, in your testimony, you mentioned that we'll be moving thousands of contractors to civil servant roles. So, how many how many new civil servant positions do you expect to hire? [snorts]
▶ 0:49:25Well, sir, uh we have two different workforce initiatives underway right now. One is we we do have I mean we have approximately 14,500 civil servants. We have 40 to 45,000 full-time contractors. You wouldn't notice the difference of them. They they sit side by side with everybody else at at all of our centers. And we are paying a premium for workforce flexibility and we we intend to exercise that flexibility at certain centers with certain core companies to competencies to move them over for civil servant.
▶ 0:49:54The overall workforce size is unchanged in this. We we gain some operational efficiencies, we rebuild core competencies, and we save some money along the way. Separate from that, sir, we have our pipeline. How do we bring in new talent? We have uh over we bring on over 2,000 approximately interns a year. We take the top 1% and then we're working with OPM on an industry exchange program to grow and elevate our talent so the next generation of engineers, pioneers, scientists uh grow up within the organization and contribute.
▶ 0:50:22Thank you very much. And my time is out, so I'll yield back, sir. Gentleman yields back. Uh now I'd like to recognize um Representative Bonamichi from Oregon.
▶ 0:50:34Uh thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member. Thank you so much, administrator, for being here today. Uh happy Earth. Uh and and also congratulations on the successful and incredibly inspiring Aremis 2 mission. I'm going to follow up on Dr. Babin's question um or Dr. Beard's question, sorry, uh about the earth science program because what NASA does in space is amazing but also significant work uh on the earth as well.
▶ 0:50:59The earth science programs deliver a lot of foundational data uh that communities, farmers, emergency managers rely on to make decisions, decisions about wildfire risk, drought, extreme heat. And the NASA's Landstat program, it's been around since 1972. It's been a lifeline uh actually in my home state of Oregon as the state combats increasingly frequent and intense wildfire seasons for example.
▶ 0:51:24But the fiscal year 27 budget proposes to fund one final government satellite for LANCAD and then it signals a transition to a commercial model but provides little detail about how that transition would occur.
▶ 0:51:37So I'm going to ask you administrator Isaacman um can you guarantee uh you this with this proposed phase transition to commercial I just want to note that that you know gaps in climate or land use data sets or barriers to access could compromise modeling and higher uh and hinder response efforts. So can you guarantee that a commercialization strategy will prevent any gaps in data and public access?
▶ 0:52:03Then also, what is NASA's contingency plan if private capabilities are delayed or if they fail to meet the standards the public depend on for extreme weather and wildfire response?
▶ 0:52:14Uh, great question, Congresswoman. Thank you. I I would say guaranteed NASA, it's uh we we we often undertake incredibly challenging endeavors. I would say it's a I have extremely high confidence in our ability to deliver on this. And let me explain, ma'am. We currently have several LANCATs that are still up there now and they are doing great work. LANCAT 10 uh which I believe forgive me is somewhere in the early 2030s is when we intend to launch that program right now. So you have existing satellites plus you have the new Lancet uh 10 program.
▶ 0:52:44So we're talking now many many years into the future when we should be giving consideration to that transition and that's taking place now at a time when industry capabilities are maturing extremely fast. As I pointed out six years ago our only way into space was via the Russians. Now we're on NASA Crew 12. Artemis is launching.
▶ 0:53:02There's constellations of communication and observation satellites uh not just uh Starlink, you have Blue Origin, Planet, Black Sky, and all of them have reached out to us and said give us this mandate and we can incorporate these tools. Now, we're proceeding carefully at it. We've put RFIs out to gather the data, but I'm quite confident by the time LANCAT 10 or anywhere close to it is terminating that we have the capabilities from commercial providers. I
▶ 0:53:26I appreciate your confidence. We've spoken a lot on this committee over the years about public private partnerships. I just want to emphasize the importance of of public access to data, how critical that is. Um I also want to want to follow up on the um point that the ranking member Lofgrren made about the proposal to eliminate NASA's office of STEM engagement. Also serve on the education workforce committee. And this this office has served as a pipeline really for the next generation of scientists and engineers for for decades.
▶ 0:53:55And and I want to explain that this to me raises serious concerns about support uh for America's future scientific workforce. And we saw how the uh the the captivation of young people and and what that meant to watch the launch and the and the the the return of the astronauts, children and future sciences around the world watching this and how inspiring it was for them. So to me it makes no sense to destroy a program that really would foster future science talent.
▶ 0:54:24So, how does closing the door to aspiring scientists help NASA sustain a skilled workforce and lead the world in discovery?
▶ 0:54:31Well, Congresswoman, I would just say that uh that inspiration and as a result, STEM engagement is inherent in really everything we do. To to your own point, ma'am, when Artemis 2 launched a human space exploration initiative, the world paused and took notice. And I do believe, you know, thanks to the good work from uh Reed, Victor, Christina, and Jeremy on that, there will be more kids dressing up as astronauts for Halloween. And it's not just in human exploration. It's missions like Dragonfly and the Nancy Grace Roman telescope.
▶ 0:54:58So, uh I think it is NASA focusing on and achieving our near impossible mission that sends that powerful message of inspiration across the world that does inspire that next generation of pioneers. I
▶ 0:55:09I appreciate that. Um I I also think it would send a strong message of support and inspire to maintain uh the the office uh of STEM engagement. NASA's mission really does depend on world-class data and a strong prepared workforce to carry the mission forward. Uh so and and in my opinion, this budget would weaken both of those and extreme weather as it worsens and NASA's scientific achievements dominate headlines. This is the wrong time to eliminate the programs that have this demonstrated success. So, thank you for being here.
▶ 0:55:38I yield back.
▶ 0:55:39Thank you.
▶ 0:55:42Yields back. And now I'd like to recognize the uh representative from Florida, Mr. Mr. Webster.
▶ 0:55:50Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Mr. Isaxson, the International Telecommunications Union, uh, world recom uh, uh, radio communication conference is going to be in Shanghai next year. Um,
▶ 0:56:05one of the agenda items pertains to the lunar communication frequencies and can you speak to any plans to promote the the adoption of the Luna Lunaet which is a NA NASA communication and positioning navigation and timing service for the lunar region at the conference.
▶ 0:56:26Uh, yes sir, Congressman, what I would tell you is I am certainly tracking the uh the conference in Shanghai. I understand there's going to be a delegation there that's representing uh United States interests. That said, I fully expect that we will be focused at NASA on actually implementing lunar communications on the surface of the moon while they're there talking about it.
▶ 0:56:45Uh, and I expect not only to be doing that through uh, existing Lunaet pathways, but working with American industry and our international partners on phase one of the moonbased construction to test out a variety of surface and actually on orbit communication methods to prepare for that enduring presence we're going to build on the surface of the moon.
▶ 0:57:04Uh, does holding the conference in Shanghai concern you to impose any kind of risk to the United States or NASA uh and their leadership team or interest in establishing lunar communication
▶ 0:57:21Well, sir, I I would say it would only it would only concern me, Congressman, if we were waiting from the outcome from that conference to make our determination. Instead, we will be focusing on landing uh landers and rovers on the surface of the moon uh and already beginning experimentation for what does and doesn't work in that uh unique environment. So, we are we are pressing ahead.
▶ 0:57:40So, we have our mandate to get our astronauts back to the moon and to build the moon base so we can Well, how will uh will initiatives announced during the NASA ignition including Moon Base, serve as additional tools to further strengthen your position and efforts to promote US norms and standards in space?
▶ 0:58:05That's a great question, sir. And uh I think we've intentionally designed the moon base uh architecture to experiment with what does and doesn't work uh in the lunar environment which is the whole phase 1 to inform subsequent phase 2 and phase 3 buildout. What we're doing, Congressman, is we're actually drawing on the playbook that worked really well for NASA in the 1960s when we had Mercury before Geminy and Geminy before Apollo and a lot more Apollo missions before we landed.
▶ 0:58:33uh this is this is the unknown and we haven't been there in a long time and we should experiment. So uh undertaking that effort to do lots of landings, lots of rovers, not with the expectation that everything's going to work great or to build the the glass dome with the crops and ferris wheel in it, but get things on the surface of the moon and start learning about mobility, power, communication, s surface improvement and use that to inform subsequent endeavors. Uh I think this is a uh the correct pathway to ensure we have a sustainable presence on the moon.
▶ 0:59:01How is NA NASA leveraging uh the Artemis program uh and Artemis Accords as tools kind of a s soft power to position uh United States as a leader in space uh that reflects our values?
▶ 0:59:18I really appreciate that that question congressman. So we invited uh all of the Artemis Accord signitories to the ignition event which we hosted uh just a week or so before the Artemis 2 mission itself launched. More than half of the Aremis Accord signitories were able to attend all of the international space agencies.
▶ 0:59:36And we told them with the sheer quantity of landers and rovers that we are going to put on the moon in the years ahead, we could raid the pantry at every NASA center for flight instruments, tech demonstrations and scientific material and we would have so much extra mass and volume capacity. So we challenged American industry, American University and our international partners and said put your teams to work on instruments and payloads and we will incorporate them and land them on the moon.
▶ 1:00:01So I have no doubt right now you have students in American universities and at our international partners in the Artemis Accords that are working on hardware today that will be on the surface of the moon in the years ahead. They're all very excited to be on the moon. Sir,
▶ 1:00:13thank you very much. Uh have no other questions. Yield back.
▶ 1:00:19Gentlemen yields. [clears throat] Now I'd like to recognize Representative Ross from North Carolina.
▶ 1:00:26Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Um, good morning and um, thank you Chairman Babin and Ranking Member Lofrren for convening this very important hearing at this important time. And I also thank you Administrator Isaacman for appearing before the committee to talk about the president's budget request for NASA.
▶ 1:00:48As we've talked about earlier this month, we all watched history being made as astronaut Christina Cook became the first woman to fly around the moon. The Aremis 2 mission has ushered NASA and the American people into an exciting new era, leading the globe in discovery on the moon and deeper in space.
▶ 1:01:10It undoubtedly inspired countless future astronauts and scientists to picture themselves exploring the possibility of space. I'm proud to represent North Carolina's second congressional district, home to worldrenowned institutions of higher education, like North Carolina State University that are shaping the next generation of scientists, engineers, and astronauts like Christina.
▶ 1:01:37Christina in fact is a proud alum of NC State and began her NASA journey in 2001 as an undergraduate student with the support of an NC space grant in undergraduate research and an undergraduate research scholarship.
▶ 1:01:57She was able to intern at the NASA Academy at the Gddard Space Flight Center and take an important step toward her future as a record record-breaking astronaut. based on the president's budget request for fiscal year 2027.
▶ 1:02:14However, as we've heard from um my colleague from Oregon, the Office of STEM Engagement, the same office that supports space grants like the one Christina received, would receive no funding, cutting off young scientists from life-changing opportunities that these programs provide.
▶ 1:02:35Ending these grants at a time when this nation just witnessed the wonders of space will thwart the education and dreams of the next generation of scientists who could propel us to new heights and horizons. Administrator Isaacman.
▶ 1:02:55NASA's Office of STEM Engagement, particularly the National Space Grant College and Fellowship Project or Space Grant, has enabled the education and careers of countless scientists, engineers, and astronauts. and you've stated that a dedicated STEM engagement program is unnecessary because if we can execute our mission and get the inspiration, the STEM education will take care of itself.
▶ 1:03:25I beg to differ. I would argue that we have seen these programs bridge the gap between inspiration and opportunity particularly in North Carolina and with one of our Artemis astronauts. What do you say to young students who are thrilled about Artemis 2 and ask about participating in a space grant internship program like Christina Cook did?
▶ 1:03:56Or to the next human exploration rover student who would want to pursue this kind of activity, they will be zeroed out. their future will be zeroed out.
▶ 1:04:14I appreciate the the the question, Congresswoman, and um certainly very proud of Christina and uh and her accomplishments on the Aremis 2 mission which were which was outright historic and uh great appreciation for the schools in North Carolina. In fact, I myself spent time at Duke for flight physiology before going to space. I would just say ma'am that the the uh OTEM budget does not encompass all of the grants or internships.
▶ 1:04:39In fact uh through other uh divisions within NASA our pathway internship programs for example we issue hundreds of internships every year independent of STEM uh independent of the OTM office and we also put out hundreds of millions of dollars in grants outside of OTEM as well. So I I agree with you that we do need to bridge the gap at times from just the pure inspiration the missions provide to get students hands-on at times. The grant program does that and certainly our internship program do it. It's just not exclusive to OSEM.
▶ 1:05:09Well, I would say that we are at a point where STEM education is more important than it's ever been and we are in a global race to have the best and the brightest in this country have more opportunities. So, I urge you to reconsider this. And I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 1:05:33Yields back. I'd like to recognize um Representative Selenus. Oh, I'm sorry. I've going to the wrong end of the room. Representative Begage from Alaska. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. [clears throat] Mr. Isaacman, as we examine NASA's budget request, our national launch infrastructure is facing significant bottlenecks.
▶ 1:06:00Demand from commercial providers, national security payloads, and NASA's own science and exploration missions have outpaced capacity at our traditional sites on the east and west coasts. Given that reality, I want to highlight the proven capabilities of the Pacific Spaceport Complex in Alaska located in the high north. PSCA is positioned to deliver efficient launches into polar and sun-synchronous orbits. Additionally, it has minimal population overflight and has yearround operational potential.
▶ 1:06:28It already supports both liquid and solid fueled vehicles and has demonstrated the ability to accommodate small to mediumclass launches. In your view, how does NASA assess the strategic value of expanding operations at Alaska's underutilized high latitude spaceport to relieve congestion at Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg?
▶ 1:06:48Well, Congressman, I completely agree with you that uh I mean, we need to make the absolute most of every one of our launch complexes that are out there, including uh yours in Alaska right now. And to be quite honest, I think if we look at the trae trajectory of the commercial space industry, and what's going to be necessary for the future orbital economy, science, discovery, commercial applications, and national security, we may even need additional launch complexes in the future.
▶ 1:07:13I know we are certainly doing our part at NASA and we engage with industry that are looking for launch complexes to point them in directions where we know there's
▶ 1:07:22Uh I want to mention the outstanding work also being done at the University of Alaska system particularly the University of Alaska in Fairbanks and in Anchorage in partnership with NASA. Their geoysical institute, poker flats research range and funded projects have delivered great research in areas including space, weather, physics, earth observation and workforce development that all directly support NASA's science and exploration goals.
▶ 1:07:48Uh my question is do you believe NASA should leverage space grant affiliated universities such as the University of Alaska to enable coste effective science in space?
▶ 1:07:58I I do congressman. In fact, uh it's been a priority of mine as I I I I take seriously every single dollar that Congress affords NASA and I want to maximize the scientific exploration and discovery value of every cent of it. So we've taken very close look at every dollar that leaves the agency. Uh so whether that's from small business tech development initiatives to uh to grants to university with the idea of optimizing the process for speed.
▶ 1:08:24I don't like things taking any longer than they need to and making sure those dollars go in line with agency's most pressing objectives. An example up in Alaska for sure would be some of our sub suborbital research that goes to Aurora. We've seen some absolutely spectacular pictures I think over the last couple years as the sun's been angry with us. Uh and I know Alaska contributes greatly to that scientific study. Uh and I think it's a good example of where our grant dollars should be going.
▶ 1:08:49So uh just one last uh question. Um, just yesterday NASA canceled their spaceport operations and center services solicitation. Nana Regional Corporation, which is an Alaska native corporation, expected to receive that contract yet was notified two weeks before that the solicitation was cancelled. And I understand the workforce directive to restore NASA's core competencies. This decision has impacted an important relationship and creates uh some concern for contractors.
▶ 1:09:19And my question is, will you commit to having your team meet with my office to discuss the cancellation letter received by NANA and discuss how best NASA can work together with NAN and other contractors going
▶ 1:09:32Uh yes, Congressman. And I I would say I mean that if that took place yesterday, it might not have uh made its way to my my desk yet. uh so I can't even say if that was directly related to the workforce initiative though broadly you know even though it's the center directors that largely make the determinations of which core competencies should be rebuilt generally speaking I have said building rockets launching rockets and operations of those rockets are good areas that maybe NASA should be extremely good at in that regard I I can't say though that that is what's applicable to the
▶ 1:10:02uh to the Alaska complex though
▶ 1:10:04fully agree with with your comment regarding core competencies organizations can pick one maybe two core competencies and the rest are not by definition core. So I appreciate that. Look forward to the discussion and appreciate your service in this role. Thank you very much and I yield back.
▶ 1:10:24like to recognize uh Representative Selenus from Oregon. Now
▶ 1:10:27thank you Chair Babin and um Ranking Member Lofrren and thank you Administrator Isacson Isaacman for being here today. Like my colleagues have already said, um, Artemis 2 was an incredible success and I congratulate you and, uh, your partners who made this happen. However, I do share some of these concerns about the proposed budget and some of the shifting priorities at the agency.
▶ 1:10:47Um, in a recent interview with Science magazine, you stated, and this is in quotes, we should do probably do everything we possibly can to understand our home planet, which I wholeheartedly agree with. But then you went on to say that for NASA to assemble scientists and put out papers on politically charged issues, whether or not this is an impending climate catastrophe is not helpful to the broader NASA mission. So what are in politically charged science issues and who would decide on them?
▶ 1:11:18Congresswoman, I think the as that conversation uh transpired, the point I was trying to make is it is absolutely an obligation of NASA to understand the only planet that we inhabit and we have a lot of science we have a lot of satellites that are capable of doing that right now and we're ensuring continuity to continue to gather that data and then I believe we should make that data available publicly and let the academic institutions across the nation and their scientists and subject matter our experts put out
▶ 1:11:48the reports on those positions as opposed to for every administration changing, assembling a team of scientists that take their particular political view on something like climate change. Gathering the data, no question, vitally important. Making it available publicly also very important.
▶ 1:12:05Thank you. So, have you or would you get involved or issue direction on the types of papers that our NASA scientists can actually publish? I have not taken any position directive written or otherwise on what papers we should or shouldn't publish. That was my feelings that I expressed during an interview a couple months ago um to uh to the publication.
▶ 1:12:27Thank you. The scientific community has consistently recommended through the highly respected decal survey process that NASA pursue a balanced mission portfolio that includes large strategic science missions also known as flagships. Flagships are the most complex, ambitious scientific endeavors the agency pursues with transformative capabilities that advance the highest priority scientific questions.
▶ 1:12:49The administration's budget request abandons meaningful pursuit of future science flagships after the Roman space telescope launches this fall across any space or earth science discipline. That is a bleak vision of US space science and it is in direct contradiction of the national academyy's decal surveys of NASA's authorizing statutes. You yourself said at your first Senate Commerce uh confirmation hearing that the agency could and should have multiple flagship science missions at once.
▶ 1:13:18Why now is the Trump administration abandoning flagship science missions? How will you maintain a balanced mission portfolio without them? And have you consulted with the nationalmies on this topic?
▶ 1:13:30So, thank you for the question, Congresswoman. Um, this is this is a I I'm going to have to challenge myself to be as concise as I can because I love the subject and I wholeheartedly believe we we need more flagship science missions. In fact, as much as I would say it's good to be balanced, the reality is now as commercial industry evolves and we have more standard bus architecture that's more affordable, more constellations, we actually probably can undertake a lot more affordable low uh of the lower end of the spectrum science missions freeing up resources to do
▶ 1:14:01more flagship. I'm I'm fully in support of that. The decal process is is is extremely useful. I would love to recalibrate the time frames down uh because I actually think taking advantage of a very mature launch market right now, AI tools, we can actually gather the data and formulate positions on what should be subsequent missions a lot faster than the current process it is itself.
▶ 1:14:21So my feeling on this uh with in with respect to the budget is as we evaluate informulation missions that can be extremely costly uh I mean we spent $200 million last year on an informulation mission that was canceled by the previous administration. So I I don't always think those are the the best use of dollars. We could free up resources to undertake more decal recommended flagship missions and that is something I would like to be uh you know driving in that direction as much as possible. And there is another one coming after Nancy Grace.
▶ 1:14:50Of course, Dragonfly is very much a a flagship mission set to launch in 28.
▶ 1:14:55Thank you. I'm almost out of time. I yield back.
▶ 1:14:59Yields back. And now I'd like to recognize Representative Vanips from
▶ 1:15:04Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Isacman, for being here today. President Trump has launched America into a golden age of deep space dominance. Earlier this month, NASA's Artemis 2 is incredibly successful. Artemis 3 is slated to test our operational capabilities before the Artemis 4 lunar landing mission in 2028. It's certainly an exciting time for Americans looking to the stars. We are building a moon base, moving beyond exploration to establishing a sustained lunar presence.
▶ 1:15:31We are transitioning to commercial space stations, fostering a vibrant space economy in low Earth orbit. We're developing advanced nuclear propulsion technologies propelling us to Mars. As you stated, sir, the American pioneer spirit is alive and well, and the president's FY27 budget request reinforces these objectives while responsibly stewarding taxpayer dollars. A lunar base and commercial space stations opens a new world of possibilities for industry, including the collection of resources essential for American growth.
▶ 1:16:01metals such as nickel and cobalt which are critical for battery manufacturing, a growing industry in Tennessee's 7th district in an area this committee has highlighted as a major resource gap. The moon holds helium 3, a rare form of helium that has application for space exploration and quantum technologies, another area this committee has led on. Mr.
▶ 1:16:22Isaacman, how does this budget request reinforce NASA's goal of a flourishing commercial ecosystem, particularly related to collecting resources critical to American supply chains?
▶ 1:16:36Thank you for the question, Congressman. So, I would say that you have to look at this budget uh and couple it with the uh President Trump's Warden Family Tax Cut Act uh signature legislation which gave the $10 billion plus up to NASA to be able to return astronauts to the moon and to build the moon base itself. That's where we're drawing on substantial resources of which moon base objectives for sure is tech demonstration so we can master the skills someday necessary to go to Mars.
▶ 1:17:02It's certainly economic as well with insitue resource manufacturing that we'd be able to do those demonstrations and ideally unlock a lunar economy to fund hopefully lots of moon bases someday. And then of course it's scientific as well. Uh as I mentioned we could raid the pantry of every NASA center and we wouldn't have enough uh we would have so much excess mass and volume for scientific instruments that we welcome the contributions from many.
▶ 1:17:25And to your point, sir, on uh on resources and uh rare, you know, rare uh minerals, we also have other tools available to us that I think are exciting. For example, the America Competes Act allows NASA to put competitions out, binary outcomes. You either did it or you didn't, and and receive awards for doing extraordinary things.
▶ 1:17:44And one area in particular that I'm looking at on that would be demonstrations of uh of asteroid mining capabilities to bring uh resources back to Earth, of which if it's achieved by industry, it would certainly in uh uh justify a nice award. Thank you. A AI has been another priority for this committee. Numerous technology leaders have noted that energy is the primary bottleneck for terrestrial AI infrastructure.
▶ 1:18:07Last month, SpaceX filed with the F FCC for authorization to launch up to 1 million satellites to operate as an orable orbital data center system. Other orbital compute projects like StarCloud and Google's Project Suncatcher aim to contribute to these endeavors. How does NASA plan to facilitate an orbital economy that can help realize aspirational solutions to challenging problems we face at home, such as energy constraints?
▶ 1:18:31I appreciate the question, Congressman. I think it's actually vitally important uh for America's interest and leadership uh to lead the world in AI. And now I naturally understand why a lot of the big tech companies that realize the terrestrial bottlenecks to building out data centers have looked uh have looked to space as an application where you can take advantage of our our fusion reactor that's up there. Um and I fully support it.
▶ 1:18:55I I have to say that I've uh you know pounded the table for a long time on how imperative it is for us uh to unlock a true orbital economy to fund the future we all want to see in space someday because I don't think we'll have you know dozens of commercial space stations, space hotels and outposts if it's perpetually funded by taxpayers. So in that respect I I wish industry the best in that pursuit. And we will do everything we can at NASA to help subject matter expertise on materials. We have test facilities across the nation.
▶ 1:19:24So when their satellites get up there, they stay intact and do not come apart in ways that could damage other satellites or potentially deny access to low Earth orbit. We have test facilities, subject matter expertise, and we will do all we can, not to mention tracking capabilities to enable industry in this important pursuit.
▶ 1:19:40Thank you, sir. Thank you for your leadership, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 1:19:44Yes, sir. Thank you very much. I'd like to uh recognize uh Miss Gillan from New
▶ 1:19:51Thank you, chairman. Thank you ranking member for holding this important hearing and thank you administrator uh for coming and visiting with us today. So like millions of Americans and the members of this committee we were so proud watching the entire NASA team on the successful completion of the Aremis 2 mission and uh I congratulate you and congratulate all of NASA. So I represent a district on the southshore of Long Island in New York and it has been the proud to power America space program.
▶ 1:20:20The original lunar module Eagle was built on Long Island and we are home to Brook Haven National Laboratory and leading universities like Hofra, Stony Brook, Malloy and Adelfi. Uh I that is part of the reason why I passed an amendment to the bipartisan NASA reauthorization act during this committee's markup to expand research and technology consortia like the successful lunar surface innovation consortium. So, ambassador uh administrator rather, you've laid out ambitious plans to expand NASA's capabilities.
▶ 1:20:51Would you be willing to work with my office to find ways that we can strengthen the research and te technology consorcia regions like we have on Long Island?
▶ 1:21:00Uh thank you, Congresswoman. I absolutely uh would welcome those conversations. I think it takes the contributions of the best and brightest from across the nation, even the world to uh to help us succeed in the undertakings that we have underway right now like returning to the moon and building a moon base. And uh and I absolutely have a great appreciation for the history in Long Island and Grumman. In fact, when I'm often asked the question about, you know, do you need a NASA anymore when you have some of these industry players? I point back to we never went alone.
▶ 1:21:28Grumman, in fact, built the uh the lunar module at the time and also I think arguably the greatest fighter aircraft in history.
▶ 1:21:34thank you. I appreciate that. Uh, so as you may know, the NASA authorization act of 2022 directed NASA to research and develop new technologies to reduce aircraft noise. This is something that I hear about quite a bit. Um, my district on Nassau County faces unacceptable levels of noise pollution from JFK airport and LaGuardia Airport, which are two of the busiest airports in the country.
▶ 1:22:01So, I'm wondering if you could give us an update on how the progress uh is being made in that in those studies. Um provide us maybe with a report and if you will commit to continuing NASA's cleaner, quieter airplanes research um because it would be much appreciated by folks in my district.
▶ 1:22:18Yes, ma'am. Uh so [clears throat] I just I'd say broadly in aeronautics that um you know somebody with a decades of business background myself I am I I do try and scrutinize a lot of the uh investment that we put into uh you know co-industry development efforts and question at times is this something uh that NASA should be funding because it's a you know it's radical evolution of airframe and propulsion design uh or is this something that industry should be doing because for competitive forces this helps them sell a quieter or more efficient engine.
▶ 1:22:49Um, and I think there's there's examples of both that I've found. Some that we absolutely should be putting more resource into uh and and some that I I don't necessarily uh agree with because I don't necessarily know if funds the the future in airframe and propulsion design that we should look at. Uh but with respect to say if X59 specifically our our quiet u supersonic demonstrator, we've taken great action to get it in gear.
▶ 1:23:11Uh, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, that's a program that's nearly double its original uh cost estimates and had flown once uh uh when I was confirmed into this position and wasn't planning to fly again for some time as it went through maintenance. Um, which was kind of concerning as a pilot right after its first flight and uh and now it's flying uh all the time. In fact, it was flying throughout almost the entire Artemis 2 uh operation which I was really pleased with.
▶ 1:23:36So we are accelerating the timelines to get to the data that you're looking for which is get through the uh envelope expansion phase start flying over cities measuring uh you know the the sound from the sonic boom and using that to inform future faster airframe uh faster airframe and quieter airframe design. So that's on track right now.
▶ 1:23:53Well that's great to hear and you mentioned throughout your testimony um that about the private public partnership and working with people in the private sector. So I have spoken to many uh airline I'm on the aviation subcommittee as well.
▶ 1:24:07I speak to many airline industry professionals and and talk about the ways we can incentivize them to develop uh the technology to quiet down our skies and wondering if there is some outreach and connection between what you're doing over at NASA with the aviation sector to try to work together and take advantage of of different opportunities to share
▶ 1:24:27Yes, ma'am. So we are uh I mean I can tell you this as the the big A the first A in in NASA. This is an area that I have a great appreciation for and believe me I want nothing more than to see the aeronautics division inside NASA back to its uh its what I would call its glory days of decades past doing like almost the unimaginable because I I think in between rocket launches a cool XPlane is a great way not only to learn but also inspire the next generation.
▶ 1:24:51And I've been challenging industry, please don't give us the proposals on how to squeak out 3% more fuel efficiency out of your 30-y old engine. You should just do that as a good business. Bring us, you know, the crazy designs. Talk to us about the engine that's going to ensure America is two generations ahead of our rivals across the the Pacific, whether that's in fuel efficiency, performance, noise, airframe design, just the same. and uh and we've got an RFI out actually right now out of our aeronautics division specifically challenging industry to bring us those kind of proposals so we can team up.
▶ 1:25:21Excellent. Thank you. My time is uh expired. So I yield back. Thank you. Chairman [clears throat]
▶ 1:25:26yields back. And now I'd like to represent uh uh recognize uh the representative from Florida Mr.
▶ 1:25:33Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Administer, thank you very much for taking the time. We're really grateful for your service. uh a lot on your plate before you got this job and you're doing a heck of a job in this job and uh I was honored to stand with you as we watched the Aremis 2 take off from Kennedy Space Center and and there you were at the landing as well and just a a tremendous success for NASA and it really is a testament to the entire team at NASA put making this happen and I think the leadership shown by our chairman as well and others and we could not be more thrilled of what's happening in space right now but as you know we face a
▶ 1:26:04major challenge from China and and specifically you you put out some very bold idea which is appreci appreciate it. I think the energy that I sense in talking to so many folks at Kennedy Space Center where I represent is is not only contagious but is is growing and uh it's just a thrill. Could you walk me through some of the changes as we get ready for Aremis 3 and and some of those actions and the standardization of the SLS rocket and and why you think this is the best path forward for us to win this new space race against the communist Chinese?
▶ 1:26:33Oh, I absolutely appreciate the uh the question, Congressman, and uh I do want to talk about that competition for a second. Uh this is this is not necessarily like the 1960s where it turns out in hindsight we had almost unlimited schedule margin. No one's been back to the moon since Apollo 17 when American footprints last set foot on the moon. This is different now. Uh I say it often that the uh the difference between uh winning and losing will be measured in months, not years.
▶ 1:27:00And that should create a sense of urgency and uh and that should cause us to rethink some of our our historic approaches to get extremely focused. You know, prior to having a geopolitical uh rival, I I don't blame us for spreading thin at times and trying to, you know, work with everybody and and try and, you know, bring goodwill around the world under our mission. But when you do have a competition, you do not want to lose. Uh so I would say yes, we have outlined some ambitious and bold uh programs. That's what we should do at NASA.
▶ 1:27:29But most importantly, sir, I would say we've outlined achievable plans. So, Artemis 1 flew no uncrrewed November 2022, didn't fly again till April 1st of uh of 2026. That is not a good cadence for that rocket. That is a very complicated rocket. Five prime contractors, I don't know how many subcontractors in it on decades old designed hardware that people aren't as familiar with. You need muscle memory to do that. So, our proposal coming out of it is let's get back in the business of launching moon rockets with frequency. Let's standardize.
▶ 1:28:00Why would we launch this two times and then do a dramatic departure to the upper stage of a completely unproven piece of hardware that's I think four billion or so over budget? Why don't we work with the OEM that was making it that acknowledged there was some shortcomings here and pick something from one of their JVS that's in production that's got decades of flight heritage, put that on top of the rocket, standardize the the the launcher, launch again in 27.
▶ 1:28:24So, we're borrowing from the playbook that worked for us in the 1960s, not jumping right from Artemis 2 around the moon, waiting three and a half years to land on it. Launch again, rebuild muscle memory in 2027. Test the interoperability of the Orion spacecraft and the landers in lower Earth orbit where if something goes wrong, you're not all the way out there 250,000 miles away. You're just a couple hours from being in the water. Learn from that and then get incredibly good. Rebuild core competencies so we can turn that launch pad not in years but months.
▶ 1:28:52So you have two at bats in 2028 to make sure we get to the landing before our arrival does. And in parallel, sir, we want to be on the moon, not above the moon looking down on the Chinese. Gateway was an interesting concept in 2017 when we weren't faced with a Chinese rival that could potentially beat us back to the moon. Now we want infrastructure on the surface.
▶ 1:29:12We want American standards on the moon for power, uh, for communication, for mobility and logistics, for crude rovers, uncrrewed rovers, surface improvements and habitation. Uh, and I think working to get that infrastructure on the moon in parallel so when our astronauts land in 2028, they can get in their rover and drive around their moon base is the ultimate priority.
▶ 1:29:32And and just for my quick question as well, it's not as sexy as as going to the moon, but infrastructure is very important. It's it's it's the wherewithal so we can do this not only from Kenny Space Center but other other places as well. Um are you open to the idea as as our previous questioner from the other side talked about these these public private partnerships are so important and we know we have so many infrastructure needs if you just visit of course those locations are you open to the idea of the private sector making those investments with NASA if that serves our purpose as well?
▶ 1:30:03Uh, absolutely, Congressman. I I think that uh people often ask, you know, what's different from the the 1960s moon race versus uh versus the present, and there's certainly a lot of differences, but one of which is that the taxpayers don't have to foot the entire bill. I mean, you're talking almost 4 and a.5% of the uh of the discretionary budget during the Apollo era.
▶ 1:30:21Now we're at a lot less, but you have some of the wealthiest uh individuals and companies in the world contributing their resources to a capability essential for American leadership in space and frankly for for all of humankind. And if they want to come and invest in launch infrastructure uh that can help uh enable a capability critical for national security I welcome it because honestly sir if this trajectory continues we're going to need to make use of you know every every inch of the land at Kennedy Space Center Vandenberg up in Alaska Wallops and who knows
▶ 1:30:52in the years ahead we might even need an entirely new set of launch complexes out
▶ 1:30:55Well thank you and that Mr. Chairman I yield back and thanks for your pragmatic leadership Mr.
▶ 1:30:59Thank you sir. gentleman yields. Uh they have called votes and uh there are two votes from what I understand. So we're going to stand in recess uh subject to the call of the chair. Uh Mr. Administrator, uh I hope you can uh stick around until those two votes are
▶ 1:31:17I'll be here, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
▶ 1:31:18Great. Ajourn recess rather.
▶ 2:33:35into order here and uh I apologize for the uh for the delay. Um but we will get back into the questioning and I'd like to uh recognize uh the representative from Rhode Island, Mr. Amo.
▶ 2:33:51Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. Uh, and thank you, uh, for your leadership in holding today's hearing. Uh, and thank you to Administrator, uh, Isaacman for being here. I'm grateful to see you. Uh, the National Aeronautics, uh, and Space Act makes clear that NASA is a civilian agency focused on peaceful purposes for the benefit of all mankind, while the development of weapon systems belongs to the Department of Defense. Uh, but your budget includes dual use and national security activities. Uh, quick yes or no.
▶ 2:34:20Will you commit to keeping NASA a civil non-military agency focused on peaceful purposes?
▶ 2:34:27Yes. Thank you. Uh Congress has long supported NASA's pursuit of peace uh excuse me of science exploration, aeronautics, technology development and education, but uh your budget appears to tilt science toward human exploration. Mr. administrator, how will you ensure that NASA remains a multi-m missission agency with strong, independent, and balanced investments across all mission
▶ 2:34:54Uh, thank you, Congressman. I'm I'm certainly a huge fan of uh science and exploration. Uh, and I do think we have a very balanced portfolio planned at NASA. Nancy Grace Roman, again, a great exploration asset, flagship mission will launch towards the end this year, a nuclearpowered octacopter to explore Saturn's moon of Titan. These are missions that no one else in the world is capable of undertaking. I'd also say NASA's proposed budget is still greater than every other space agency's science budget in the world combined as well.
▶ 2:35:23I I don't think we're talking about doing less. What we're trying to do is concentrate resources on the needlemoving scientific objectives that no other agency is capable of doing it and doing it with greater frequency.
▶ 2:35:34Well, and and I believe we need to ensure that this budget uh you know matches that aspiration. And so that's why, you know, this is such an important forum to make sure that we're aligned there. Uh, and you highlighted earlier that 16 days ago, four astronauts made history. Uh, they traveled deeper into space than any humans before them. And I like stating that fact because it's so big and bold.
▶ 2:35:58Uh, the Artemis 2 mission captured the imagination of the American people and reminded the world what American ingenuity can achieve. And importantly, you know very well that moments like that don't happen by accident. uh every astronaut uh every NASA engineer, scientist and technician was once a young person inspired by space and supported along the way. And so for many that support came from NASA's office of STEM engagement which uh invested time and money in training the next generation.
▶ 2:36:28It's a pipeline and it's a pipeline that matters. And last week I I was grateful uh because of your agency to bring astronaut uh Raja uh to meet with elementary students in Central Falls and Pucket, Rhode Island, as well as with college students supported by a space grant at Brown University. So from third graders to graduate students, you could see it in their eyes. It was special curiosity, excitement, ambition. The next generation is here and the next generation is ready.
▶ 2:36:57But they need opportunity. And so we need them studying STEM today so we can power our workforce at NASA or in the commercial space industry tomorrow. That's why, you know, I have some alarm about this budget process and eliminating funding for NASA's Office of STEM engagement. At a moment where we're asking NASA to do more to lead in space and to compete globally, uh we've we have a proposal to to cut off a pipeline that makes it possible.
▶ 2:37:22And so this isn't the first time uh that President Trump has tried to cut off NASA's nose despite its face. Uh he's tried to run this bad play every year that he has been in office. And every time uh I'm grateful that Congress has rejected it. So you know the saying, right? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
▶ 2:37:44So my question for you is how can we ensure that the Rhode Island students who I you know open the door uh and world of space amazement uh to just last week uh will have the opportunity to pursue careers in space if NASA defunds uh the office of STEM
▶ 2:38:03Well I I appreciate the question Congressman and and I I I do want to reject any notion that uh the president doesn't have a great appreciation for space and inspiring the next generation. and he did give us the Artemis program that we witnessed Artemis 2 fly under. Certainly the Artemis Accords that have brought over 60 nations around around the world to understand and be like-minded with our approach for peaceful exploration.
▶ 2:38:24I I would just caution against being overly focused on a specific department when the entire AY's budget directly contributes to inspiration. Launching missions like Artemis 2 is what's inspiring more astronauts. photographs from James Webb, the video from from Perseverance and uh and Curiosity Rovers. And please understand, sir, we we have grants across the agency. We have internship programs across the agency that are funded in the president's budget
▶ 2:38:53Well, look, the what I would conclude with is inspiration is is not abstract. We've got to be directed with the precious dollars that we have. I think we should be inspiring our youth, directing it uh very specifically in a focused way towards their engagement uh towards filling these critical roles towards meeting the aspirations uh that we've set. With that, I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 2:39:17Gentleman yields back. I'd like to recognize uh the gentleman from Utah, Dr. Kennedy.
▶ 2:39:23Thank you, Dr. Babin, our mighty committee chair. Grateful for that. Administrator Isaacman, thank you very much for being with us today. NASA holds a lot of importance for Utah, my home state, as the home of the Northup Grum Promonator Facility, the Space Dynamics Lab at Utah State, among many other subcontractors that provide components to our space program. North of Grum solid rocket boosters produced in Utah provided 75% of the thrust for the space launch system to get the Aremis 2 crew off the launch pad. I'm proud of that fact.
▶ 2:39:53We look forward to many more launches, by the way, in the coming years. and I know you do as well. You speak, Mr. Administrator, about the your vision for science at NASA and doing more with less and relying on the private sector for both science and exploration. And can you provide some examples where NASA can save taxpayer
▶ 2:40:12Well, um, Congressman, I give you one great example, which would be, uh, SR1 Freedom, our nuclear power and propulsion demonstration. uh that is uh and I'll note that you you won't actually see direct reference to it in the uh the FY27 PBR and the reason why is is we have had uh as an agency decades of failed nuclear power and propulsion initiatives in fact over 20 billion dollars of taxpayer funds have been invested in it and for a capability that is critically important.
▶ 2:40:41I mean, we are going to need uh fision surface power on the moon uh to uh to power insitue resource manufacturing demonstrations. We're going to need this capability on Mars someday so we can send American astronauts to Mars, bring them home safely, and certainly for great scientific missions uh in the in the outer solar system. So, what are we doing? We're going back to raiding the pantries. We're getting some of that hardware that's been out uh that's been invested in for decades that's gone nowhere, has never left the lab.
▶ 2:41:08We're coupling it with the power uh power propulsion element from uh from uh another program that we have and we are working with industry where applicable on things like uh power conversion capabilities to bring together honestly the 70% solution just like the Nautilus was which I'll point out was originally designed to be a diesel submarine so America could finally get underway on nuclear power under the sea and in the very near future being very efficient with taxpayer resources America will get underway on nuclear power in space.
▶ 2:41:36Love it because uh I mean so partnering with with these industry partners and making sure that we advance these efforts to have space leadership in the realm of nuclear power on the moon as well as other places. Are there other ways that you see that we can partner with our industry as well as with the government facilities to make sure that that
▶ 2:41:53Yes sir. Well I would say taking advantage of industry printing off satellites right now for constellations for observation and communication is a great example of it sir. I mean at the time you know decades past understanding our planet the the soul planet we inhabit presently uh is um was very expensive. These were bespoke multi-billion dollar satellite efforts that were launched at you know more than a half a billion dollars per potentially per per launch. Now you've got the healthiest launch market in the history of uh America's space program.
▶ 2:42:21I could rattle off at least a half dozen launch providers, many working on reusability to bring cost down even further and printing off again satellites to be used for observation and communication. And they have come to NASA and said please let us incorporate some instruments for some of the earth science missions so that we can have continuity after LANCAT 10 of that data freeing up resources so we can do more missions they are not capable of doing like Dragonfly like missions like Roman.
▶ 2:42:47Thank you. Utah suppliers are providing the silo rocket boosters for the space launch system as we've talked about and you've committed to using SLS through Artemis 5. But beyond that, what are your plans in NASA for maintaining Americans capability to launch astronauts to the moon and beyond?
▶ 2:43:02Yes, sir. And I've said many times uh America will never give up the moon again. If we're going to build a base, we're going to go we're going to do so so that we can send astronauts to the surface and moon with frequency. So we have absolutely committed to using SLS through Artemis 5 as uh as uh you know contemplated in the working family tax cut act.
▶ 2:43:19But then NASA has put a demand signal out to industry and said we need two different pathways to ensure access to the moon to ensure we never give it up again for astronaut missions to the moon base on a cadence of uh every 6 months.
▶ 2:43:33And I have no doubt and I've had conversations and seen the proposals and and acceleration proposals as well from industry that you're going to see the various suppliers and SLS come together and frankly I think at uh substantially lower costs as NASA looks at ways that they can be more efficient with industry and remove some of the friction and bureaucracy that have probably resulted in inflated costs over the years.
▶ 2:43:54Last question. The NASA's ignition plan and the president's fiscal year 27 budget both identify commercial radio power specifically heater units in NASA's harmonia project and essential as essential for surviving the lunar night and enabling missions on the moon and beyond with demonstrations beginning as early as 28. So how will NASA collaborate with the private industry to scale up deployment of this technology to power American missions on the moon and Mars?
▶ 2:44:18Yes, sir. I love this question. Uh so right now the uh RTGS uh that we use for uh you know power on missions like curiosity, perseverance even uh even dragonfly mission uh we get from the DOE at extraordinary expense and probably a distraction in some ways to national security mission. I welcome commercial industry being able to provide ruse and RTGs so our equipment can survive the lunar night. And in fact we are incorporating bonus payments into the moonbased construct.
▶ 2:44:45This is already going out in the clips program to encourage landers and rovers to partner with industry to buy what I assumed is going to be probably amaresium based ruse and RTGS so we have a power source to survive the lunar night.
▶ 2:44:57Thank you for those answers and thank you Mr. Chair. I yield back.
▶ 2:45:00Gentleman yields. I'd like to recognize Representative Whiteside from California. Five minutes.
▶ 2:45:05Thank you Mr. Chairman. Uh Administrator Isaacman. In your career you have launched to space twice, performed the first private spacew walk, piloted high performance jet aircraft and built industryleading companies. Now, it is my pleasure to greet you for your biggest challenge yet, your first congressional budget hearing.
▶ 2:45:19Yes, sir. Uh, I was there for the launch of Artemis 2, and I want to begin by congratulating the entire NASA family on this all-inspiring mission. Much like in 1968 with Apollo 8, the country really needed this. But, we have a short time to cover some key points. So, let's get into it. First, let me say that I think you're doing a good job. You've brought new energy to the NASA workforce. You're rebuilding both morale and critical skills after a very difficult year. You're rightfully focused on outcomes and getting good value for go government dollars. You support science both in space and for our home planet.
▶ 2:45:48And while I may not agree with everything you propose, I believe you're an honest leader of good character. Thank you for stepping up to government service.
▶ 2:45:55Thanks, sir.
▶ 2:45:55To state the obvious, I believe OM's budget request for NASA is dead on arrival. I have spoken to members on both sides of the aisle and many are surprised and even offended that Congress reject that that after Congress rejected the draconian cuts to NASA proposed for FY26. The administration would ignore clear bipartisan congressional intent and propose similar cuts again. Let me send a message to OM Director Russ vote. Congress will reject your misguided war on American science.
▶ 2:46:25My first question echoes others on this committee. Can we get your commitment today that NASA will respect appropriations law and not repeat last year's de facto implementation of proposed cuts before Congress has carried out its constitutionallymandated budget process?
▶ 2:46:39Congressman, you have my commitment. We will always follow the law. But to be very I I do also promise to very much overcommunicate with this committee and Congress when I do believe we are putting resources not in an appropriate place for good scientific or uh uh or discovery return.
▶ 2:46:53We certainly welcome that exchange. Um, as an accomplished pilot yourself, you know that American leadership in aviation isn't a birthright. It's earned through constant innovation and test. Many people forget that the first A in NASA stands for aeronautics, which though I know you do not. I'm proud to represent many of the amazing men and women who work at Armstrong Flight Research Center. Do you believe in the importance of the aeronautics theme in NASA's congressional mission? And will you lead an ambit ambitious vision for the aero portfolio to keep us ahead of our international competitors?
▶ 2:47:22You can count on it, sir. That's awesome. I will say that uh the deletion of sustainable aviation in the uh program at a time when aviation fuels are skyrocketing in price and a gas stocks are collapsing is short-sighted and should be reversed. Um I'm also proud to represent many folks who work at JPL, which borders my district to the south.
▶ 2:47:41JPL is a national treasure and the cuts and layoffs it has suffered over the past two years have weakened our leadership in space exploration and needlessly lost hundreds of worldclass engineers to the private sector most of whom will probably never return to government service. I think that's a big loss to our nation. So I was very pleased to see JPL play a crucial role in se several initiatives announced as part of your ignition efforts.
▶ 2:48:02I note that some of these very exciting new space exploration programs such as Skyfall and Moonfall do not seem to be in the president's budget request, which may be because they were developed after the FY27 budget passback uh from OM happened. I look forward to working with you to help fund these missions through mechanisms that do not cannibalize existing science missions that are duly appropriated in law. One area where I think we do not yet agree is on the issue of commercial space stations.
▶ 2:48:29I believe that the new option for CLLD has proposed that the ignition event has two central risks. First, that it will leave lead to an unsafe extension of ISS and second that such an extension of ISS will then lead to a budgetary challenge that will prevent future administrators from fulfilling an exploration agenda that meets your bold vision. Let me elaborate briefly. Realistically, I do not think that there is a way to get a new government module launched until at least earliest 2029 and more likely 2030 or later.
▶ 2:48:56If the point of such a module is to enable private companies to gain experience, that would seem to necessitate multiple years beyond that point. Also, several of these private companies would need to redesign their stations to fit this new concept, delaying them further. I believe that this will inevitably lead to a push to extend ISS to 2035 or even 2040. Such an extension opens risks that are both known and unknown. Known includes the risk of Zvezda unzipping.
▶ 2:49:20uh unknown is the risk of extending US hardware 10 to 20 years bei be uh beyond its design lifetime. Further extending the ISS to these dates will then consume 10 to 20 billions more than the current CLLD baseline over that coming decade that could be going to exploration. While I believe that your views are earnestly developed, I urge you to proceed with a plan that NASA has been following since the first Trump administration and that private companies have invested billions of dollars on.
▶ 2:49:46Uh when I pushed through helped push push through commercial crew in 2008 through 2010, we constantly heard that commercial providers weren't ready and couldn't execute. The critics were wrong. So I think we need to be bold and push forward to a new path for human space flight. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
▶ 2:50:02Gentleman yields. I'd like to recognize Representative Obernoli from California for five minutes.
▶ 2:50:07Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Isaacman, thank you very much for being here. I've enjoyed the hearing. Uh I'd like to follow up on the discussion that you were just having with my colleague from California, Mr. Whitesides. Uh like Congressman Whitesides, I'm a big fan of the work done at NASA's facility, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Uh I was a Caltech alum, so I spent some time at JPL uh in college, but more more recently uh I was there watching the landing of the Perseverance rover a few years ago.
▶ 2:50:38Uh and I mean I think I hope I would hope everyone would agree that they are really the class of the world when it comes to research in robotic space exploration. Uh but like Congressman Whitesides, I was very distraught at the recent uh layoffs and budget cuts at JPL. And I wonder if I could ask about what your plans are for facilities like JPL. Do you think that they uh are going to are going to have funding restored? Did you further funding cut or something in between?
▶ 2:51:03Well, thank you for the question. I have a great appreciation for the work uh of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and we do absolutely intend to make very good use of the expertise that's out there. As Congressman Whitesides pointed out, the Skyfall program is going to be run out of JPL. The Moonfall program, which is also quite quite cool. I mean, these are uh autonomous hopper drones that are going to be used as part of the moonbased construction, also carry scientific payload. We're also going to leverage the expertise at JPL to insert subject matter experts across other programs to ensure we get to good outcomes.
▶ 2:51:33When I talk about accelerating the Aremis program, NASA's never going to sit on our hands anymore and hope everybody delivers for our moonbased ambitions. We are putting brilliant minds in the supply chain, every vendor, subcontractor, and component on the critical path to drive outcomes. And I suspect JPL will play a role in that. I will say though that we we constantly have to look at when we, you know, we get things right, great, let's learn from that and apply it elsewhere. Where do we get things wrong and do it better? And uh, you know, you take the Mars sample return mission, which JPL owned on that one.
▶ 2:52:02I mean there is that program was canceled under the previous administration after as I mentioned in my remarks it went from 4 billion to 10 billion and there's two billion of taxpayer dollars that are lost now that could have gone to good science and discovery. So there's certainly room for improvement. Uh I will also say where uh an area that I think we can do better is going to be in the reimburseable work. JPL does uh has a lot of expertise that they help across government and industry. The last administration wound down quite a bit of that which did result in some of the layoffs.
▶ 2:52:30That is something I've tried to reverse course on quite quickly, not just at JPL, at other centers where NASA's brilliant minds can be helpful and contribute reimburseable work to supplement the budget. We should we should welcome those conversations.
▶ 2:52:41Right. Well, we'll look forward to working with you in that respect. Um, also wanted to ask about NASA's lunar terrain vehicle program. Obviously, that is going to be a key part of sustained service operations under the Aremis campaign. Uh based on your current budget request, do you believe that that program is adequately resourced to meet the goals and timelines that you have set for it?
▶ 2:53:03Uh yes, Congressman. Not only would I'd say it's adequately resource, it's back to what I would say a more uh achievable track. uh at the time I arrived, which I would say is before President Trump established the national space policy um that uh that called for uh building a moon base, we were going to procure one extremely expensive lunar rover as a service.
▶ 2:53:24uh put a lot of eggs in one basket when there's a lot of industry that's capable of contributing that wants to learn and mature capabilities for a time not just to support NASA's lunarbased requirements for logistics and crude and uncrude mobility but perhaps to do autonomous science. So now we are on a path to procure lots of LTVs. We're not necessarily going right to the dream state as a service. Maybe what begins the first three rovers will look very similar to what we saw during the Apollo era. And that's fine because we haven't driven a rover on the moon in a very long time.
▶ 2:53:54But we'll use that to learn with industry to to inform subsequent designs and we will procure lots of rovers in the years ahead. Uh and we are going to draw upon the resources from the working family tax cut act plus what's in our science technology mission directorate exploration systems mission directorate um line items.
▶ 2:54:11Uh we're certainly looking forward to working with you on those.
▶ 2:54:14Yes sir.
▶ 2:54:14Um last question in the time I have remaining. I wanted to ask about uh uh the research being done into space weather. I mean obviously that the Artemis 2 mission utilized a bunch of solar observational data uh that came from our research community and I'm wondering how NASA sees collaboration with the research community in in terms of space weather. It's something that's been a priority for this committee
▶ 2:54:39and I and I certainly concur with it. Uh so I think between the assets that we presently have available and where we can transition in the future, space weather is one that uh we've received a lot of feedback from industry across all the various constellation providers that they would like to be able to lean into uh supporting uh that um the at least the collection of the data for the researchers in the years ahead. And I think that's a good thing. But there's no doubt this is imperative. Space weather impacts uh the decay of our satellites up there.
▶ 2:55:07It impacts the health of our astronauts when we send them out on deep space uh missions. A very different environment from the International Space Station. So, in that respect, I'm obviously very very supportive of the ongoing research in that field.
▶ 2:55:18All right. Well, we look forward to working with you on that. My time's expired. I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 2:55:22Gentleman yields. Uh I'd like to recognize for five minutes uh uh Representative Riley from New York.
▶ 2:55:29Well, thank you uh Mr. Chairman. I want to welcome one of my constituents. Andrew uh just joined us. He won the uh Congressional App Challenge and we were just down in the hallway uh brainstorming ideas for his next app. I will tell you his ideas are a lot better uh than mine. Um but welcome Andrew. It's good to see you here. Uh a couple of Friday nights ago um my family and I ordered uh wings and pizza from Ned's up in in Kyuga Heights. Gathered up on the couch and and watched the Artemis return to Earth. Uh my boys are six.
▶ 2:55:58They're about to be six and three. Uh my father-in-law is almost 80. Um, I won't tell you how old my wife is. Um, and uh, as cool as it was to see those photos of Earth from the dark side of the moon and to see the fireball on re-entry into the atmosphere and see those parachutes deploy and the the shuttle splash down. Uh, for me, the thing that was most special uh, was seeing the looks on the faces of three generations sitting on that couch as they watched the whole thing.
▶ 2:56:27And it really was one of those do you remember where you were when And I got to tell you, I think we really needed it as a country. Um, we're so divided these days. Uh, where I come from, you're not defined by your political party or how you voted in the last election, but the algorithms that run our lives these days are built to tear us apart. And I've only been here for about a year, but I find that too often in our politics, we're pit against each other.
▶ 2:56:55And the folks who are rewarded are tend to be the loudest and not necessarily the most thoughtful. But in that moment, that 6 minutes when our astronauts lost contact with Houston and there was literally radio silence, in that moment, we were brought together as Americans and we were truly reminded of what we can accomplish together. And you see those images of Earth from the other side of the moon and it's so distant.
▶ 2:57:22Uh but the reality is none of it would have been possible without the folks right next door, our neighbors in upstate New York. Americans went further into space than we'd ever been. But we did it because of what happened in places like Norwich in Shenango County, population 7,000. We've got a great blues festival in the summer, a great arts festival in the fall. I spent Veterans Day there last year. Uh we've got the classic car museum. It's a small town with a lot to offer.
▶ 2:57:51And it's where the Aremis mission was launched from. I know the rockets launched in Florida, but the mission starts in upstate New York where the team at Unison in Norwich literally designed and built the ignition systems for the Artemis. You don't get 8 million pounds of thrust to launch a 6 million pound rocket stack by turning a key in your Chevy. You get it with an ignition system built by some of the most advanced cutting edge engineering and manufacturing in the history of the world. And you get that in Norwich.
▶ 2:58:22Uh Lucas Miller is the lead program management specialist at Unison for the Artemis program and he said uh the work his team does is mission critical because uh there's a lot that must happen perfectly and if something goes wrong it could be catastrophic. Those are those are his words. So you'd think he'd be pretty nervous uh watching the launch but he wasn't. He said I have full confidence in our components that they would operate as intended. We make sure everyone is on the same page 24/7 365.
▶ 2:58:48And for those few moments a couple weeks ago when we sent Americans into the deepest reaches of space, we as a country were finally on the same page with each other. And I think that's about as important as anything these days. And so I want to thank and congratulate the folks at Unison in Norwich for their role in all of this and for reminding us what upstate New York manufacturing is all about.
▶ 2:59:11We take a lot of pride in punching a clock and making stuff, not because it's stuff we're making, but because it's really important stuff that makes the world uh better. And administrator, I'd like to use my time today to just personally invite you uh to visit Norwich with me uh to meet the team that made all of this possible and to see firsthand why we have so much pride in upstate manufacturing. Can we set that up? Set up a visit.
▶ 2:59:36I I would uh I would welcome it, Congressman. I generally believe that if uh spending too much time in uh DC at the headquarters, I'm probably not doing my job uh appropriately. So getting out in the field where the action is is something I take great interest in and I fully expect to be doing uh over the next year as we start driving outcomes from our suppliers so we can launch this thing again in 27.
▶ 2:59:55Terrific. Well, I'll um I'll have my folks reach out to yours and we'll try to set it up. I agree with you. I try to spend as little time here in the swan in um in DC as possible uh and and try to try to get home uh the second I can. So uh I I'll be really thrilled to welcome you for for a visit to Norwich. Uh you're you're going to love it. I promise. I'll yield back my time.
▶ 3:00:16Gentleman yields. I'd like to recognize the uh representative from Georgia, M Dr. McCormack.
▶ 3:00:22Thank you, Dr. Chair.
▶ 3:00:24Yes, sir.
▶ 3:00:25Mr. Administrator, appreciate you being here. It's exciting topic. Going to outer space is one of my favorite topics. As a matter of fact, if I ever get a chance, I know it's not unprecedented to send a congressman into space. I'm a pilot, military pilot and doctor. I think I could be useful to you guys. So, if you ever want to consider just saying
▶ 3:00:42got the application in, sir.
▶ 3:00:45Can I Can I second that? Can I second sending [laughter] I will I will second sending you into space.
▶ 3:00:50It'll be during break. Don't get too
▶ 3:00:54like a deal can be had here.
▶ 3:00:56There you go. Hey, there's certain things I would sacrifice for, no doubt. Um, it's interesting. We we see a lot of development in schools and preparing people for jobs in NASA. Georgia Tech is one of the leading uh institutions with leading edge technology and both in engines for space as well as uh cyber all kinds of things that that really link with you guys. How are you preparing the battlefield for recruiting people like that? What kind of pipelines? What kind of uh things are you doing to facilitate NASA jobs and developing those kind of pipelines?
▶ 3:01:26I appreciate the the question uh Congressman and by the way I have direct uh experience with the uh folks at GTRI from uh from another life and understand uh the great capabilities that they can bring to um uh bring to the environment.
▶ 3:01:39Uh I would just say that uh it all starts uh with missions just like Artemis 2 and um I understand that you know for example STEM and inspiration has come up quite a bit throughout this hearing and and in almost every example that I hear about it I hear Artemis 2 referenced and uh and that's right uh throughout everything we do at NASA from launching moon rockets to again great telescopes like Roman and rovers on another planet uh that's how we get people excited and then uh where do you take it from there?
▶ 3:02:08Well, that's where our grant portfolio comes in. And we do have a great grant portfolio that works with universities across the country. We're optimizing it to actually get the dollars out the door faster, but also to ensure it's in line with the things we need to return to the moon, build the moon base, and do the other things necessary as a component of our mission. And then we have our internship programs of which pathway internships which go across all our mission directors not only get you in as an intern, but also as it's as it's labeled as a pathway into a job uh at NASA.
▶ 3:02:38And then it goes in other ways too. We have a great partnership with OPM on NASA force where we can work with folks from industry and academia who may not necessarily want to make a career at NASA but want to serve their country. Term-based appointments a year, two years, three years, bring their expertise in the agency, help grow our young talent and then they go back to industry and there's also a vice versa component where we can use as well. So takes the best and brightest across the nations, the contributions to do the near impossible. We're all about it. Sir,
▶ 3:03:03can't think of a more exciting career really. Um when we talk about the international space station which was intended to transition towards a commercialled model through the commercial LEO uh destination program which I was really excited about. We've seen NASA though now commit to basically proposing a governmentowned car core model which is essentially a new federal acquisition.
▶ 3:03:25brings up some concerns on my behalf because we've had a lot of great you think about the biggest advancements in in space travel and satellites and stuff like that have been on the civilian side where we have a lot more abundant funding and it's a lot more accountable and it doesn't cost cost the taxpayers any money which is really important to me. What is the justification to the American taxpayer for continuing to fund governmentowned uh capability in low orbit low low earth orbit instead of accelerating the commercial transition?
▶ 3:03:54I appreciate the the question on that, Congressman. And just let me um two hats here. As a uh as a space enthusiast since kindergarten, I want nothing more than to see a world with lots of commercial space stations up there. I want my children to grow up in a world where there's lots of commercial stations and hopefully they can actually go to them someday. That would be uh outstanding. As the administrator of NASA, I have an executive order from the president of the United States that calls for a transition from the International Space Station to a commercial space station by 2030.
▶ 3:04:21And I want to make sure that happens because if we get that wrong, there's only one other space station up there other than the ISS and that's the one that's owned by the owned by the Chinese right now. Uh and we are doing everything we can to stimulate the market so that there uh is such time that we can fulfill this vision where NASA is one customer of many. To be clear, people uh you know brought up the idea that NASA's pivoted here. We didn't. We have two options.
▶ 3:04:47the original pathway tell us that how that works which we put an RFI out and we also suggested an alternative that allows industry to mature their capabilities over time as market demand uh hopefully materializes I say this sir uh we have success stories with commercial space no doubt launch observation communication there's lots of it lots of opportunities to learn iterate and improve your capabilities we're talking about one space station as a service here we want to make sure we get it right and I and I'll tell you sir it doesn't make sense if you're traveling
▶ 3:05:18periodically to another uh another town to build a home uh to stay in. That is not the more economic model when you can rent a room at a hotel. But those economics get challenged again when you have to rent out the entire hotel because there's no one else booking a room. And we just want to make sure we get that market right, sir.
▶ 3:05:34Good analogies. With that, my time has expired. I yield.
▶ 3:05:37Gentleman yields. Uh I'd like to now recognize uh another gentleman from Texas, uh Mr. Meny.
▶ 3:05:45Thank you very much, Mr. chairman and uh good morning administrator. Uh when I walked in, we were talking about sending members of Congress to space. So, it sounds like it's been a good uh day thus far indeed. Um I want to start by saying congratulations to the Artemis 2 crew, to the NASA workforce, to all the contractors, the partners. What you all accomplished was extraordinary. And for a few days, the entire country stopped and and looked up and wondered what could be. So, congratulations.
▶ 3:06:13Um, I represent Houston's 18th district, which encompasses downtown Houston, parts of northern and and southern Houston. And NASA's work driven by the Johnson Space Center, the JSC, sits right in my backyard. As we talked about earlier, that JSC supports more than 52,000 jobs and contributes over 4.7 billion dollars to the Texas economy every year. uh the people who built this country space program, they live in my district, they work in my district, and they send their kids to school in my district.
▶ 3:06:43So, I want to make sure that we get this right. So, when I hear that Artemis 2 succeeded, I take that personally. But when I hear that this administration wants to cut NASA's budget by 23% and slash the science budget by nearly half, I take that personally as well. We just watched four astronauts fly around the moon and right in the middle of that mission, OM dropped a budget that would terminate the very components that got them there. That is not a strategy that is sabotaged.
▶ 3:07:12And I think that it's positioning this agency to once again have to utter the words, "Houston, we have a problem." Administrator, I believe you want NASA to succeed. And I believe you want to get to the moon and beyond. And so do I. So does this Congress. But ambition without resources is merely a press release. The administration needs to sustain and grow investment, not reduce it. And that's where my questions are focused here today.
▶ 3:07:37[snorts] NASA terminated the electrified powertrain flight demonstration project, which was to develop and test megawatt scale hybrid election propulsion systems. And NASA did so before Congress ever acted. Now, Congress has restored the funding, but one or two of the aircraft will never fly, and the data NASA will get from the other one is a fraction of what was planned. Houston's aerospace sector builds next generation aviation systems.
▶ 3:08:06So, this matters a ton to the Houston region and to my district. What is NASA doing to make sure our country doesn't fall behind other countries in hybrid election aviation because of the proposed cuts?
▶ 3:08:18Appreciate the question, Congressman. I'll tell you in aeronautics especially as I mentioned this is uh the first day in the big A in NASA is one that I have a great appreciation for as a pilot and would love nothing more than to see our aeronautics portfolio get back to the days have passed when we had an exciting array of Xplanes that were wowing the world and fly by wire and thrust vectoring um and I'm working very hard with our team in in doing that uh to fly more often and make sure our resources go into what I think should be radical airframe and
▶ 3:08:48engine radical airframe and radical uh propulsion design so we can fly higher and faster for civil, commercial, and even national security uh reasons that we've done in the past. We're working in that in in that direction. Um, I would say with respect to this program specifically, and I and I know the, uh, Congresswoman Lorren asked about it earlier, uh, it's been long-standing practice inside NASA, uh, to adjust and prioritize spending to the lower of either the House, the Senate, or the the president's budget request for uh,
▶ 3:09:18Marks and uh, the aeronautics mission directorate leadership determined this wasn't the highest priority initiative. Now, of course, with FY26 appropriations, it was continued and I think even evolved in such a way to ensure that uh we do get to the correct outcome with the program and and I'll say just with respect to the other airplanes here and I might be going off memory here, but X66, which was one of the if I recall electric demonstration aircraft was uh was uh terminated by NASA well prior to the PBR because I think there was a conclusion it would not have been a a safe
▶ 3:09:48platform to fly. on a pivot to the technical authority function which at NASA was created after the Colombia disaster specifically so engineers could raise safety concerns outside of their chain of command. Uh the fiscical year 27 budget cuts that account by 50% while asking for 45% of NASA's entire budget for moon and Mars activities.
▶ 3:10:11Um, how do we cut the safety checks in half while expecting the organization to still be able to operate at scale in highly complex and dangerous
▶ 3:10:22I appreciate the question. Uh, let me assure you that NASA does not underspend uh with respect to safety and mission asurances. Uh, the technical authorities are one pathway which I have a great appreciation for. I was able to see them on full display uh with respect to um the review of the Starlininer matter with the uh the evacuation from the space station when the we had the crew 11 medical uh situation that was the tech authorities that were doing an outstanding job in that. But we also have a a safety center.
▶ 3:10:51We have numerous uh safety and mission assurance uh contractors that support various centers and mission programs, not to mention the in-house workforce that's on it. I think the idea that we can we can optimize there for the sake uh of efficiency and safety can be a very real outcome here.
▶ 3:11:08Thank you, Administrator. I yield back.
▶ 3:11:11gentleman yields. I'd like to recognize another gentleman from Texas, Mr. Self.
▶ 3:11:17Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um director, I want to our prep was NASA heavy. Uh, I w to I want to go back to the PBR and uh I want you to help me understand within this budget how are you going to uh balance what NASA should own and control and operate
▶ 3:11:42and what should be moved to a commercial model. Uh, and if you've got measurable criteria, I'd appreciate hearing that because uh, obviously in Texas, we've got a major space operation going almost daily and uh, so how are you going to balance that? Because uh, SLS and Orion I guess will be going away. So if you can just talk about that balance within this budget that is obviously lower.
▶ 3:12:13Yes sir. Uh so this is a question that comes up quite a bit uh because we have some extremely high-profile commercial space companies and people question from time to time like what is NASA's role in all this and I say again that the nation needs NASA the world needs NASA what we should be doing is the near impossible what no other government agency is capable of doing what no company can close a business case uh to do and certainly what no other nation is capable of doing.
▶ 3:12:39But when we do crack the code on something where NASA, this is to your quant, I guess quantification component, could be one customer of many, we should ensure we hand off those capabilities to industry where competitive forces in this nation will inevitably make the capability or service better and at lower cost. And we are seeing that play out exceptionally well in launch, observation, and communication.
▶ 3:13:03No doubt right now we can launch uh payloads for the support of science discovery astronauts in space building a moon base building an orbital economy at far lower cost today thanks to an extremely healthy commercial launch uh market. We're able to look at how we can do observation communication in the future at far lower cost thanks to several companies that have um uh that are printing off against satellites for those those purposes. So we can buy services at lower cost and free up resources again to do the near impossible.
▶ 3:13:32That's why we're undertaking missions sir like nuclear power and propulsion because I believe with the with the AI power demands here on earth you should be putting industry should put all those efforts to meet terrestrial power requirements let NASA go up and do something as bold and ambitious as a nuclearpowered spaceship figure that out and if should there be a market where NASA's one customers of many we hand that off to industry and then we refocus again on the next grand endeavor sir
▶ 3:13:57and as an example I will point to the brack for military posts u uh locations did that unwillingly, shall we say, to put it mildly and when they privatized the bases, many of them were more successful. So, in the next five years, obviously, we're in a competition with China. What are the top three capabilities that you believe China could outpace us over the next five years?
▶ 3:14:23And within the context of this budget, how are you going to prioritize them? Because we got to beat China. Well, yes, sir. And I would say that uh the priorities established by President Trump and the national space policy uh which is where we intend to focus our our resources and also uh try and liberate the best and brightest minds at NASA from the bureaucracy that's been slowing them down, empower them to win are the areas that are of greatest threat at least with respect to the peaceful exploration
▶ 3:14:53of science and discovery in space. Meaning we are our number one task return to the moon. The Chinese, their number one civil space program objective right now is to get to the moon. Uh, and as I mentioned in previous testimony, the difference in timing right now based on, you know, publicly available schedules is going to be measured in months, not not years. The uh, the second component of our national space policy, the president said, is pick up where Apollo 17 left off, but do so to stay this time. Build an enduring presence on the moon for its scientific and economic potential.
▶ 3:15:24The Chinese have stated they want to build a moon base and in the same location as us. And even though the moon is very big, surface area of Africa where we want to be uh is approximately the size of Washington DC and we both want to be in that same spot for water ice and uh any eternal light from crater ridges. So we need to use the resources from the working family tax cut act to build the infrastructure there to do so.
▶ 3:15:45So what are the three capabilities specifically that you think China could outpace us in the in the next five years? and I have 26 seconds.
▶ 3:15:53Yes, sir. I uh I I don't think they will outpace us on our path, but I would say reusable heavy lift launch capabilities is is a key enabler for everything we want to do in space. Uh certainly the landing capabilities to put mass efficiently on the moon itself and then nuclear power and propulsion because not only is it key for a moon base, it's key for a Martian base and exploring the outer solar system. Those are three folks are
▶ 3:16:14and you can do that within this budget
▶ 3:16:16based on the working family tax cut.
▶ 3:16:18Okay. Thank you, chairman. I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Uh now I'd [clears throat] like to recognize gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Foster.
▶ 3:16:28Uh thank you, Mr. Chair, and to our witness. Um I'd like to focus on about three different things. The first is the balance of effort between just using the same old technologies, chemical rockets to low Earth orbit versus more transformational technologies. uh the secondly the fragility of the systems that we're talking about commercial and military that we're talking about putting into low earth orbit and even higher orbits and how prone they are to adversarial uh sabotage.
▶ 3:16:55Um and then secondly, how you're pl thirdly, how you're planning to use the countries full of geniuses in a data center uh to really lower a lot of the mission costs because if you look at the Mars sample return, I'm sure if you looked at that budget, it was mostly salaries. Uh a lot of that engineering can and will be done that way. So um just start with the balance of effort. Uh because you know Artemis was inspirational, but there is nothing it did that would not be 100% understandable to Veron Brown.
▶ 3:17:24It's just, you know, that's the reality. And we have been just, the reason that we gave up on Apollo is that we had hit fundamental limits of chemical rockets into low Earth orbit. You know, there's maybe a factor of two from the reusable boosters and stuff that was all, I guess, conceptualized in the 1950s by NASA engineers, but um but that's not the factor of 10 or 100 that you need in launch cost to LEO if we're really going to move a big fraction of humanity into space.
▶ 3:17:52Um, and you know there are these technologies like you know space elevators, electromagnetic launch, spin launch, you know them all that we don't seem to be putting a comparable amount of effort into and what's what's your thinking on that?
▶ 3:18:04Well, this is a subject I would love to talk about for more than uh you know the next three minutes and some odd seconds. So uh would would welcome follow-up opportunity on it. I would just say sir that I I think in terms of at least leaving earth's gravity well chemical propulsion is the right approach for that and letting industry and competition drive down costs materially as they have done is is a key enabler for all we want to do. Uh so again whether that's science
▶ 3:18:26we sort of hit the limit on that. I mean it's you know Elon Musk what he did he found that you know NASA had structured itself to to spread the part projects artificially out into every congressional district and he said this is stupid. We're just going to vertically integrate. We had a a robotics guy hearing just the other day where same thing you know the guy said I want to build a lot large number of robots vertically integrate and that's the efficient way to do big projects like this
▶ 3:18:51and I I would largely not disagree with you and I think that is an important thing for everybody to realize that when we spread out across the supply chain across the nation it is not always the most efficient outcome and and or timely and that matters in a great rivalry
▶ 3:19:05that's why our military thing yeah F-35 is that expensive because they come into all of our offices and say, "Hey, here's this little part we're building in your
▶ 3:19:13The only thing I just say, sir, is we are still very early in rapid reusability. We haven't fully endto-end reused a vehicle. Starship would be the first in that regard. Others are working it. So, we still throw away the top half of the rocket. So, the ability to drive cost down with chemical propulsion is still real, but I concur that NASA should be putting resources on the wow factor, which is why I I am I am such a big uh proponent for nuclear power and propulsion to efficiently move mass and exploit your nuclear thing.
▶ 3:19:38I mean, you're the mission you're setting up is a bunch of hall thruster things, not nuclear thermal, which you know, and hall thrusters will never be useful to deliver men to Mars, humans to Mars, because they just don't have the they have high specific impulse, but they don't have impulse, which you need for a reasonable length mission. So, it's actually not going to be faster than using chemical rockets.
▶ 3:19:58It may not be faster, sir, but if I may, I love the subject. I'm sorry. It it actually still is very key from an enabling perspective. nuclear electric is going to be more applicable for surface power which you're going to need to make the propellant to bring
▶ 3:20:09surface power. Yeah, we're talking about
▶ 3:20:11but it's it's going to be the same reactor design. So we're getting efficiencies out of that sir NTP I I don't disagree but we got to do something with nuclear to get in that direction. Uh if we jump right to that which has radioactive exhaust we'll probably want to do testing here on Earth. It's more infrastructure. I'm I'm just saying it's a stepping stone in the direction of good just like Nautilus may have been a 70% solution but it created the nuclear navy.
▶ 3:20:31Okay, but you're some parallel effort, more parallel effort on these more transfer, you know, like you shouldn't be doing zero on nuclear thermal because that's the only thing that's realistically going to deliver you to Mars in some time less than a, you know, most of a year. And so that, you know, that it's completely obvious at the spreadsheet level that you need to do that. And so I'm sort of distressed that you're I'm not seeing a ramping up of of efforts that will be actually transformational.
▶ 3:20:58Well, and and with that, sir, I agree. And and what I want to do before I ask more money from you and advocate for this uh in the president's budget request is I want to get nuclear out of the lab. I mean it's$20 billion dollars that we've wasted dozens of failed programs. I've seen the spreadsheets on this where we haven't done anything. The last time NASA launched a nuclear reactor was in 1960 something. So we got to get underway on nuclear power and propulsion. Prove we can do this a pathway for transportation launch regulation.
▶ 3:21:23get nuclear power on orbit and then believe me I'll be the champion sir for NEP NTP because I do think this is directionally correct for the agency.
▶ 3:21:31Okay, I've got one second left so yield back. So thank you.
▶ 3:21:37Thank you. Gentleman yields back. I'd like to recognize uh gentleman from Texas, Mr. Weber.
▶ 3:21:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Isaacman, it's my first to be with you. It's good to see you today. My district 14 there in Texas uh is just south of Johnson Space Center. You know, it is separated by Clear Lake. Probably somewhere 7,000 to 8,000 employees that either work for NASA and or it subcontractors work and and live and play in my district. Uh we're glad that you're here. Glad you're willing to answer questions. Kind of fascinated by the exchange between you two. We'll follow up on that later.
▶ 3:22:13One of my favorite subjects.
▶ 3:22:14Well, I couldn't tell. So, I I appreciate the agency taking a hard look at that workforce structure I'm describing to ensure we're operating as efficiently as possible, but I want to focus specifically on how the workforce directive is being and going to be implemented within the flight operations directorate commonly known as FOD.
▶ 3:22:34As NASA continues to execute missions like Aremis 2, how are y'all, that's a Texas word, how are y'all ensuring that workforce changes do not introduce risk to the mission execution or crew safety? And at the same time, we don't want to do a number on those companies that have come to be the suppliers of NASA. I yield to you.
▶ 3:22:55Yes, sir. I appreciate the question. I know there's been some uh you know, discussion on on the subject right now. Uh simply puts her at a high level. Uh 75% of NASA's workforce is contractors. 40 to 45,000. Uh they're not temporary. They've been there for years and decades and will continue to be there for years or decades in the future. Now, some of them may be appropriate for contractors because it's not a core competency. It's not an area that NASA needs to own and maybe clear out some of the barriers whether it's contractual or IP or system related.
▶ 3:23:25And and they will continue to be contractors. Some of it is a core competency, sir. And I think it would surprise many that when the astronauts come over the radio and say Houston, they're talking to a contractor, not a NASA civil servant. They share the the same desks. Their badges look almost the same, but we are paying a premium to have them as contractors relative to as a civil servant. And that premium is for workforce flexibility to be able to do the type of decisions we're talking about right now. We're not breaking glass on this. This feedback all came from the workforce.
▶ 3:23:54The leader of this program was a is a former center director from Stennis Space Flight Center. He's retiring at the end of the year and he said he wants to do right by the NASA workforce. He's owning this uh uh his name is John Bailey and he's working with the center directors at JSC, KSC, Marshall and all of our centers saying what are your core competencies? Who do you need? And do it in a thoughtful way based on the on the timing of these contracts and in the process the workforce is happier and we're we're saving some money along the way.
▶ 3:24:19But the reason he's doing it, sir, and they're picking is so that these decisions they know they have to live with long after I'm gone, long after the administration changes over. what's the right thing to do for NASA and that's what they're working on. Sir,
▶ 3:24:30how long will that process take in your
▶ 3:24:33I'm hoping by uh by the end of the year. I I I think we don't we certainly don't want this to be a distraction all we've got our pilot programs like mission control at at Houston. We we'd like to be civil servants because we will always have a civil uh mission control in Houston from here until the end of time. I'm sure of that. And we should and we have some pilots at KSC for those who build our rockets and launch our rockets. there.
▶ 3:24:52So you have guidelines and guard rails to make sure that this takes place, but time frame you would extrapolate out. He's going to be through with all that 6 months, 2 years, 6 years.
▶ 3:25:03Yes, sir. I I would hope by the end of uh 2026 that this workforce conversion initiative is we're at a a stable place unless there was some contractual reason why it made sense to do something in 27, but uh you know there's again there's there's no job losses here. This is this is taking people and changing their badge. It saves the taxpayers some some money on the way and does the right thing for the employee.
▶ 3:25:22Will you come back to Congress before those final decisions are made and you know fill us in on what your progress is and what the plans are and how close we are to the end of that.
▶ 3:25:32I'm happy to keep you uh keep Congress posted the whole uh way. I think we have some pilots that are underway now. Mission control being an example. But I I love overcommunicating. I don't want to surprise anybody on this one. Uh I think this is I think this is absolutely the right thing for taxpayers. Um, and it's certainly the right thing for NASA and I'll communicate as much she needs,
▶ 3:25:49Okay. Well, if you love overcommunicating that that to me that just means you talk in your sleep. Okay. So, one, as you may know,
▶ 3:25:56I got this job, sir.
▶ 3:25:57So, as you may already know, many colleges and universities across the country are proud members of the National Space Grant College and Fellowship Project or Space Grant, which falls under NASA Office of STEM engagement. Specifically in my district 14, Lamar University, uh institutions like Lamar University are part of this esteem group helping to prepare the next generation of leaders in the American space enterprise. The budget request proposes eliminating funding for NASA Office of STEM engagement.
▶ 3:26:26Can we fix that, do you think? Well, you know, uh, um, Congressman, I, you know, this question's come up quite a bit, and I know everybody is focusing on a particular department, but I I would encourage looking at the outcomes of what we're supposed to be doing. We have grant making at the hundreds of millions of dollars level across NASA right now. That's not going away. We have internship programs measured in the hundreds across NASA's portfolio. That's not going away. And of course, again, inspiration is inherent in every dollar you give us.
▶ 3:26:56Okay. Thank you. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 3:26:58Gentlemen, yields. Um, now that I recognize Representative Superman from Virginia, five minutes for his
▶ 3:27:06Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Isaacman, for being here today. And, uh, I actually grew up in Clear Lake next to Johnson Space Center, and, uh, you know, I was born and raised there, and it's a wonderful place. And it was the excitement whenever there was a mission was just, uh, amazing. And my neighbors were astronauts, and I I think I've carried my love of science and innovation because of that experience growing up there.
▶ 3:27:29And uh Artemis 2 brought back a lot of those great memories and uh is really it it shows our our kids, it shows our country, our world what's possible. And so I want to thank all the men and women at NASA and you for for making that happen and showing what's possible. And there's more to come it seems. And so we're very excited and you have a lot of support in Congress.
▶ 3:27:49Uh what I would say is uh uh you know one of the big reasons why this was possible was because of the science mission directorate and and because of our investments in science at NASA over the years. These investments don't just help with these missions, they help uh with everyday life back here on Earth. And so I would just love to hear from you. uh would a mission like Artemis would have been possible uh without the sensors, the scanners, the navigation tools that were created by NASA science.
▶ 3:28:20I think there's no no question, Congressman, that our science mission directorate contributes greatly to human space exploration, to tech development in STMD. Science is in is is also inherent across all of our mission
▶ 3:28:32Great. And uh you know today is Earth Day and uh NASA many people may not know it contributes a lot to uh making sure we do the best we can for our planet and uh critical weather forecasting, hurricane tracking as well, wildfire detection, which is a big issue. Now, would you agree that our science directorate contributes to that and contributes to our well-being right here on Earth?
▶ 3:28:54Of course they do. And I and I think this is this is a question uh congressman entirely about outcomes. Uh can we launch flagship science missions? Can we launch earth observation missions? Can we work with industry for earth observation? Can we do more uh with the resources that are being contemplated in the in the president's budget request? And I would say absolutely. And I I draw that based on the work that I've done understanding where our inefficiencies are and frankly reading the IG and GAO reports on where we've mismanaged taxpayer dollars.
▶ 3:29:23So I don't think we're asking the world to live without Earth sciences. We're not asking the world to live without the next great flagship mission. We're just saying we can go about and do it with less resources and we should be judged on outcomes.
▶ 3:29:34So you think the the 47% cut to the NASA's science mission directorate will still yield the same results?
▶ 3:29:42Well, and if I may to give an example on that, uh LANCAD is a great program has existed for four decades. We're working on LANCAD 10 right right now. These are multi-billion dollar type programs. uh they were designed to be very bespoke uh because who else was going to do it if not NASA?
▶ 3:30:00So the question is in a world today where you have a thriving commercial space industry that's materially dropped the cost of launch printing out satellites for earth observation and communication the technical means to incorporate some of these instruments will they be able to do it at half the cost I would argue probably with respect to space weather and earth observation the constellation providers may actually reduce cost by 80 or 90%. There are certainly efficiencies be gain uh with external partnerships and certainly the way we approach things internally as well.
▶ 3:30:28So you think that that's one example though there's many things happening at the science mission director. Do you think we can cut uh 50% across the board and still yield the same results or
▶ 3:30:38Well, I I mean my commitment uh to Congress is to maximize uh the scientific value of every dollar you give us. And what my what I am saying is based on on our history of late, yes, we can do far more with the resources available, even a reduction in the budget to do so. And I gave examples of that. I mean, Mars sample return. Gez, we we threw away $2 billion. I we could have done we almost could have launched another Nancy Grace Rome space telescope with the money that the taxpayers lost on Mars sample return alone.
▶ 3:31:07Okay. Uh we may have to agree to disagree but uh I also want to ask uh the president said to Artemis astronauts that we'll establish a permanent presence on the moon. Uh and I'm curious the timeline on that and will canceling the lunar gateway delay that delay that
▶ 3:31:24I I would I I mean to be very clear uh and I don't think I've hidden my feelings on this uh repurposing resources from Gateway uh absolutely accelerate America's ability to build a moon base. uh gateway may have been an interesting concept in 2017. It's a different world today and we don't want our astronauts orbiting above the moon. We want them on the surface of the moon.
▶ 3:31:45Uh and by uh applying the resources from the gateway program to the uh missions we the the the contracting pathways we have like LTV, clips, cargo, uh hls, we will be able to build infrastructure on the moon way faster than uh uh gateway would have ever been online. We're going to start landing on the moon with cadence in the beginning of 2027. You'll see it on a near monthly cadence, sir.
▶ 3:32:07And and very very quickly, you've also canceled an order for the habitat and logistics outpost hardware. Uh do you know what'll happen to that um large investment that was made?
▶ 3:32:17Uh habit is it does it happen to go by another name on that one, sir? I might have to get back to you on that.
▶ 3:32:22Um maybe we'll talk offline about that. But um that this was a pretty big investment and and uh north of Grman is in my district. They were part of making that happen. That order was canceled.
▶ 3:32:32Oh, I'm sorry. Is it so some of the gateway components I have in Halo the I mean you know there's plenty of reports on these are I I appreciate the contributions and look forward to working with them on how we can potentially repurpose hardware to surface application. I'll tell you at gateway program we had the only two outside of the PPE hardware that we're going to use for the nuclear power and propulsion demonstration the only two habitable volumes that were delivered both were corroded. Um, and that's unfortunate because it would have delayed, you know, probably beyond 2030 the application of gateway.
▶ 3:33:00And and again, I I I don't fault that the time in 2017 was a good idea to orbit our astronauts above the moon. That was at a different time when now you have astronauts now you you want our astronauts on the moon before our our rivals capable of doing it. Not to mention for all the good science and tech demonstrations that will be applicable from having our people on the moon. So, I uh I think that's an example of uh a program that took way too long to come to fruition, became too costly, and the uh the hardware that was being delivered as a result was not meeting
▶ 3:33:28Thank you. I yield back. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 3:33:30Representative yields back. Uh now, I'd like to Representative Sykes from Ohio. You have five minutes for questions.
▶ 3:33:41Thank you, Chair Chairman Babin. I appreciate you being here, Administrator. And just a few weeks ago, uh, led by Tier Babin, my colleagues and I were down in Cape Canaveral and had the opportunity to see the Aremis 2 launch. And it was nothing short of extraordinary and American exceptionalism on full display. Uh, and for many years at NASA, this successful mission represent a culmination of many, many years of hard work.
▶ 3:34:06This includes the team at Ohio's NASA Glenn Research Center who ensured that the Orion spacecraft European system worked alongside the American technology. And while in space, astronaut uh the commander Reed Wiseman thanked NASA Glenn by stating this vehicle powered us and propelled us from the Earth to the moon and back with extreme precision and we are excited to be a part of your team.
▶ 3:34:29Uh you have all heard me say that the road to the moon and Mars runs through Ohio and I am so very proud that Ohio was recognized on their way back from the moon. Uh I sent my family a few pictures of me at the launch and my mother said that she hadn't seen me that excited since I was a child. And so I can't say that I wasn't disappointed that while the president celebrated the Aremis launch, he then announced a 23% budget cut.
▶ 3:34:59And as the kids would say, that's diabolical. So administrator, you know, the aviation administration is one of the few to enjoy positive trade balance. And in Ohio, we rely very heavily on it. Um the capabilities at NASA's is certainly are key to maintaining that uh part of our economy, excuse me, in our state. And in fact, onethird of NASA's funding in Ohio comes from aeronautics.
▶ 3:35:26So why then is the administration proposing to pull away from aeronautics even further, reducing the budget by about a third or ending or dramatically descoping much needed development programs? Congresswoman, I I uh appreciate the question and obviously I very much support the president his goal uh to more efficiently allocate resources within within NASA because frankly there are a lot of examples of where we have not done a good job for the taxpayers on allocating resources and delivering outcomes.
▶ 3:35:56And again, as a pilot and somebody that should be extremely excited about the aeronautics division, we have examples where we have exceeded costs by nearly double on some of our our explanes. We've had programs we've committed hundreds of millions to only to have industry walk away and say it turned out it wasn't a very uh a very good idea. All that said, I I'll tell you I my goal is to deliver outcomes. It's to drive good execution.
▶ 3:36:19And I have no doubt Glenn is going to play a huge part of it, not just for the the the wind tunnels that are being done there, but nuclear power and propulsion at NASA is going to run through both Marshall Space Flight Center and Glenn. um they have the the expertise and the test centers to be able to enable the next giant leap capabilities we're going to need for lunar surface power for power on Mars someday and to explore the outer solar system.
▶ 3:36:43So I I hear and understand what you're saying and we all want you to be mindful of how you're spending. But what do you say to people in Ohio when you're cutting resources uh that account for a third of the budget? Aviation is incredibly important to our economy. So, are you saying that the president and NASA is they're perfectly fine with Ohioans being out of a job or without opportunities because you want to rearrange things here in DC?
▶ 3:37:06I I think what we are we are asking the uh American taxpayers and those around all of our centers is to judge us based on our outcomes and not how quickly we can spend money.
▶ 3:37:16So, what about the outcomes of people losing their jobs? No, I I think the idea is if you if you can apply those resources correctly, we can demonstrate things like again nuclear power and propulsion is incredibly important to
▶ 3:37:29Well, I think that we demonstrated some things especially in Ohio when you have Commander Wiseman thanking NASA Glenn for their work and in addition to what you are doing, you're outsourcing contractors uh including those at NASA Glenn and some folks have been laid off. So again, I asked the question to you as my constituents are trying to figure out how to make ends meet and how they're going to participate in our local economy. What is your statement to them when you're cutting uh budgets will put them out of a job?
▶ 3:37:55I I my my statement to Glenn as it would be to any other senator is is that uh we are going to focus on uh efficient use of uh of taxpayer dollars to drive the outcomes that get people excited like Artemis 2 and and nuclear missions like freedom that will go through Glenn. So, it sounds like some of those outcomes may mean uh joblessness for Ohioans. But I do want to ask you another question. Do you intend to cancel or shut down any missions or projects because they did not receive the proposed funding in fiscal year 27?
▶ 3:38:24Well, I would tell you as of now, we haven't any programs that are under FY26
▶ 3:38:29I I'm talking about 27. it I I would tell you that uh right now our goal is to concentrate our resources on the needlemoving objectives in line with the president's national space
▶ 3:38:39So is that a yes? That is a yes.
▶ 3:38:42I can't think of anything at Glenn that would be canceled. If anything we are trying to build
▶ 3:38:45I didn't ask just about Glenn. I said
▶ 3:38:48are there I mean for sure within uh I mean people people have brought up qu naturally asked questions about SMD. We have a number of informulation science programs that have not been launched yet that we're looking at other ways to go about doing it including buying services from uh orbiting constellations for space weather and earth observation data.
▶ 3:39:07Thank you very much. I'm out of time and I yield back. Thank you. I'd like to recognize uh Representative Rivas from California. Five minutes.
▶ 3:39:19Thank you. Um, Administrator Isaacman, thank you for visiting NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory soon after your confirmation. While this is outside of my district, um, the facility employs many of my constituents who really appreciated your time there. Uh, with the recent um, Artemis 2 mission, people are once again excited about going to the moon, exploring space, and learning about NASA. NASA and its work continues to be an inspiration for Americans of all ages.
▶ 3:39:49Kids were able to see astronauts who looked like them with a diverse crew and I was excited to see a woman on the crew as well. Uh, however, the Trump budget proposal is missing the significance of this moment. It will set our future NASA workforce back, especially a diverse workforce.
▶ 3:40:08If the president's budget becomes a reality, our country's future NASA STEM workforce and educational opportunities will be depleted and space exploration will remain just a dream for many. While inspiration is important, it's not enough. Our children need to have the skills, the tools, and opportunities available to take the hope that they have and make it a reality. administrator.
▶ 3:40:32As you may know, the Trump administration has proposed eliminating the office of STEM engagement, which includes the minority university research and education projects and other vital initiatives that serve to uh give the the skills provide skills and tools training for many young people. Uh on a bipartisan basis, Congress has rejected these proposed cuts. In fact, the Office of STEM Engagement was specifically authorized in statute in 2022.
▶ 3:41:03Can you explain why President Trump's fiscal year 27 request again calls for the elimination of the Office of STEM
▶ 3:41:12Well, thank you very much for the the uh the question. I very much enjoyed JPL and I have no doubt the experts there will continue to contribute to a lot of exciting scientific missions. In fact, we got a bunch that are on the horizon. Uh I do support with the president uh asking us to find efficiencies uh be better allocators of uh of taxpayer capital and deliver good scientific and discovery outcomes. And I think the the president understands again that inspiration is inherent across every dollar that Congress affords to us.
▶ 3:41:40In fact, even sitting here today, every example I've heard of uh from from members of Congress about their enthusiasm uh you know and excitement and their children watching on TV was Artemis 2. And that's exactly what we're supposed to be doing by focusing on the mission, by getting astronauts back to the surface of the moon, building a moon base that can be viewed on a website uh through uh orbital observation assets is exactly how you get children to want to grow up and join this great adventure.
▶ 3:42:06And we do have internship programs and we do have hundreds of millions in grant programs throughout NASA independent of the OTEM office. Uh but I think those STEM programs provide the addition of they get inspired and then they get the hands-on skills that they need to enter that workforce and by eliminating you're you're you're kind of part of the puzzle is being removed.
▶ 3:42:28And and I think ma'am I I I think it's just a a and I understand when the the title of the department is you know uh is about STEM education that the assumption is it's binary. If it doesn't exist, that all goes away. But I I can tell you within what that department where it goes then if it's not all going
▶ 3:42:43But it but it's actually it's already there. So literally hundreds of internships, pathway internships are funded independent of that office through all of our mission directorates and hundreds of millions a year in grants that go to universities to take kids from the inspiration they got from our missions to uh to like a career whether it's at NASA or industry exist independent of that office.
▶ 3:43:04Uh but what's in that? Why why eliminate that office then if there's programs there that could um further inspire? How how do you get how are you going to get the students in those internships if they're missing that crucial part of their education that would get them to apply to apply for an internship? It's very competitive. I have to be prepared and I agree with you.
▶ 3:43:25is very competitive and I think the reason why we've been asked to take a look at this in other areas is because they know there is duplicative functions that our grant portfolio exists independent of this and our inter internship programs that in fact the pathway program specifically that allows you to apply as an intern and then more or less guarantees you a career period
▶ 3:43:44also this office is in the law right and you're proposing to eliminate it the administration it's in statute that we passed here in 2022
▶ 3:43:53and we didn't cancel the the office is funded under FY26 appropriations and and I interact with uh with the leader of that uh that department routinely on this uh and and and we will always follow the law that that's not changing. We're just pointing out that
▶ 3:44:07following the law is keeping this office and its programs available to all.
▶ 3:44:13And and we of it the office is open
▶ 3:44:16Okay. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 3:44:19Representative yields back. Uh Representative McBride from Delaware. Five minutes.
▶ 3:44:25Thank you so [clears throat] much, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you so much, uh, Administrator Isaacman for joining us today, for bearing with us as we get down to the lower part of the DEAS. Um, building off of of some of your comments earlier and some of the comments of my colleagues earlier this month, I like so many people across the United States and around the world stared at my screen in wonder watching those four astronauts take off, fly by the moon, and then eventually splash down in the Pacific.
▶ 3:44:50In fact, my lock screen on my iPhone is one of my favorite pictures uh where you can see the Orion capsule, the moon, and our little crescent that we call home beyond that. Um, and to some of the points that you were making earlier, moments like this are not only scientifically significant, they're civically healing. It's truly a national accomplishment and a global event. And it's, in my mind, an antidote to the division that seems to define our age. And moments like this seem to come just when we need them most.
▶ 3:45:19I think it's no coincidence that in the 1960s, an era marked by chaos and conflict, we dreamed of and reached the moon. And actually 65 years ago this May, President Kennedy spoke words that ring just as true today when he declared, quote, "If we are to win the battle that is now going on around the world between freedom and tyranny, the dramatic achievements in space which occurred in recent weeks should have made clear to us all the impact of this adventure on the minds of people everywhere who are attempting to make a determination of which road they should take."
▶ 3:45:50He actually said those words to our chamber, to Congress, as he asked this body to appropriate the necessary funds for us to not only go to the moon, but to achieve all of NASA's goals. He came to Congress, Congress appropriated, NASA executed, and Congress provided oversight. And that's obviously why we're here today 65 years later.
▶ 3:46:11Unfortunately, that constitutional obligation is undermined when the administration fails to or is incredibly delayed in providing us with the information necessary, information that we are legally entitled to to perform that oversight role. And I know we've talked a little about a little bit about this already, but this committee didn't receive NASA's FY2025 spend planned until mid-March 2026, six months after the year in question ended.
▶ 3:46:38and much much much further beyond the uh legally determined deadline for that information. And this was despite repeated efforts by this committee member by committee members by staff for basic information about how NASA is spending appropriated money. Um the FY 2026 spend plan is well overdue as has been talked about earlier. You told the chairman that the process for compiling the spend plan was wrapped in early April and hopefully will be released shortly.
▶ 3:47:08Can you commit to providing the FY 2026 spend plan to this committee within the next 10 days?
▶ 3:47:15Uh, Congresswoman, I can tell you that for the part that NASA plays in this, um, you know, we have completed our effort as of early April, like a lot of things, it makes its way through the various uh, administration administrative process. Uh, and I'm hopeful it is released to you within that time frame. Uh, I'm not aware of anything that's still up for for discussion in it. Uh, you certainly have my commitment. And I I understand with respect to FY25, um I was confirmed in late uh late December uh on that one. I tried to make that a priority to turn it around as quickly as we can.
▶ 3:47:45I'm hopeful now that um we'll be able to get into a more uh we'll be able to adhere to our schedules um better. And I also would happily make my uh myself available, as I said to all the members of the committee, I enjoy overcommunicating and bringing people together to do really challenging things like we do at NASA. and um we'll share as much about our plans and spending as uh as possible.
▶ 3:48:06Great. Well, it is already 45 days uh or it's required to be submitted to us within 45 days of enactment of the appropriations bill. Uh it was due in February 2026. I recognize that there are other people in the administration that are reviewing. Um, one thing I hope that you will successfully be able to do is manage up and around throughout the administration to get this to us because that information is incredibly helpful as we perform oversight in the aftermath of the appropriations bill going into effect.
▶ 3:48:35Um, and I know that you are eager to get us that information. I hope that you're able to help the rest of your administration get it to us in a timely fashion. Um I I I also just want to quickly ask the big advancements we see from NASA come from a collaborative process across administrations and of course in collaboration with the scientific community and the um national academyy's decal survey process is a critical part of informing NASA's priorities and so I'm curious in determining which science missions and project to propo projects to
▶ 3:49:05propose to cancel within the president's recommended budget to what extent did NASA consider the effect that their cancellation would have on advanc advancing the scientific priorities outlined in those decal surveys.
▶ 3:49:16Well, it's an interesting question. I understand we have limited time. I will tell you that I am hopeful since [clears throat] uh my understanding of most of the programs that were uh you know that are being considered for cancellation. and they haven't been canceled yet were are informulation scientific endeavors and do not measure up to the flagship programs that we tend to coordinate closely on uh with respect to the decal survey or their missions that have uh long past uh their original life of which we are working on ways to consolidate efforts to continue to yield good science uh you know that that requires little dollars
▶ 3:49:46in order to do so with the aim of launching more flagship missions uh in the future and hopefully at greater frequency than the current uh decal survey process affords. Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 3:49:59Uh, Representative Mlan Delh Delaney from Maryland, please. Five minutes.
▶ 3:50:07Uh, thank you to our chair and our ranking member. Um, I really appreciate this hearing. It is um, incredible to me. And thank you um, Administrator Isacson for joining us today. It's nice to see you again. I think I met you in Green Belt. Um, and in fact, uh, my home state of Maryland, I represent Maryland's sixth congressional district, is a major player in the aerospace industry.
▶ 3:50:31In fact, early in my legal career in the 1990s, I worked in Rockville at Orion satellite, which was the first separate system in the private sector. Um, did a lot of innovation. Um, but I also deeply believe um that we always need to have government funding in foundational research in um in our weather satellites at Noah and most especially in NASA projects so that the fruits of these endeavors might be shared by all of our citizens and for the public interest.
▶ 3:51:00Um and we need a vibrant ecosystem for research. And to that note, thanks to the expert scientists, engineers, technicians, and other staff at GDDARD Space Flight Center, Goddard employees, Hopkins researchers, and others have created an incredibly robust ecosystem of research projects and companies driving unbelievable innovation.
▶ 3:51:23Goddard is also the home of the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, which I saw when I was there, and a project which is both ahead of schedule and under budget. Kudos. Really incredible. I'm looking forward to the upcoming launch. But for more than 65 years, GDDAD has been America's preeminent hub for scientific research in space. It's also foundational to NASA science. You cannot separate the two.
▶ 3:51:49The beating heart of Goddard in science and the beating heart of NASA science is Goddard. But I'm concerned about Goddard's future. We're hearing credible reports and seeing written information that Goddard leadership is telling employees and making decisions based on Goddard only doing work in national security, planetary defense, and moon to Mars. There's something conspicuously missing from these categories.
▶ 3:52:13And being on SST, I want to hear your vision for Goddard's science as we look forward to funding NASA. Um, I just want to ask you, administrator, do you believe that Goddard should remain America's preeminent center for scientific research in space and could continue carrying out groundbreaking scientific missions for NASA?
▶ 3:52:35I I do, Congresswoman. I in fact, I'm looking at every one of our centers and saying, what is the ultimate specialization here and let's declare it a center of excellence and make sure we resource it accordingly to do so. I think JPL is a great example for deep space science and robotics. I think Johnson Space Center is our human space flight center of excellence. I think Goddard space flight center is a science center of excellence. Uh everything from earth to near earth to helopysics.
▶ 3:52:58Not to mention actually has a lot of exciting like astrophysics with Roman uh space telescope and and dragonfly as a planetary science mission. If I if I can just go in and because I hear that, but for months our Maryland delegation and our whole delegation has been asking the straightforward question, which facilities or missions at Goddard are proposed for either consolidation or closure?
▶ 3:53:20And despite communication between our delegation and center leadership, I remain concerned about the future of the workforce, particularly something called the dep prioritization of habitable worlds. The FY27 budget is is vague and it emits the center level workforce.
▶ 3:53:36Um so first uh you know will you commit now to ensuring a robust program at GDDARD that fully leverages the technical capabilities of its workforce including maybe moving forward with habitable worlds and is there um can we have improved communication with respect to Goddard's future for both the civil servants um while Congress is completing its FY27 work bill and um as we are just looking at the assessments generally. It's really important for research.
▶ 3:54:07Yes, Congressman. And I and I say, you know, several times say about overcommunicating. I will happily ensure that every every member of this committee has my cell phone so we can have these conversations as often as it likes. I'll definitely take it. I'm I'm here for the mission. I'll learn to sleep and eat another time. Um and I and I would say in terms of uh just let's you know Goddard Space Flight Center specifically, I'm I'm looking for opportunities of where we might have programs that are out in uh bespoke programs at different parts of the country. we can consolidate into Goddard, not from centers, but individual operations.
▶ 3:54:35So you could have maybe a uh you know a ongoing science operation center to continue to yield good science out of missions that are past their initial their initial design life. I look at the president's budget request as the administrator of NASA as an opportunity to find inefficiencies where there's been some waste or or or even in some cases abuse that's out there to unlock resources to do more of the science and discovery that gets people excited, especially the work that's done at Goddard. I I just hope to get some details further so we can know for these workforce. Thank you.
▶ 3:55:05I yield back. [cough and clears throat]
▶ 3:55:08Representative yields back. Uh representative from New York, Representative Freriedman.
▶ 3:55:17California. I'm sorry. I apologize.
▶ 3:55:19Quite all right. Thank you, Chair Babin, and uh to the administrator Isaacman for being here today. Tell me. Uh I rep I represented JPL when I was in the California legislature and they're just outside of my congressional district. They have over 5,000 scientists uh at that facility, many of whom live in my district. But even more importantly, the work that they do around earth science is crucially important to California.
▶ 3:55:41They do everything from weather monitoring in an area that is very uh susceptible to extreme weather events to to ocean temperature monitoring to looking at the effect of climate change in California to methane monitoring that was instrumental in finding the terrible leak at Aliso Canyon several years ago. Now, we have seen this administration constantly try to roll back JPL's work on those very crucial areas crucial to wildfire resiliency, crucial to the lives of people.
▶ 3:56:10uh not not future people in space but people right here on Earth and that is a huge uh threat to to Californian's safety. Now you have contended that you can that we can cut half of NASA's budget and still retain all of these crucial programs and so I am very curious about how you are intending to do that. Um, I am wondering if you can give me five examples of how we can continue all of those important programs.
▶ 3:56:39All the programs that impact wildfire, all the programs that impact climate, all the programs that impact uh weather predictions, how you can cut half of those budgets and still maintain the full force of those programs. Can you give five examples of the kind of waste, fraud, and abuse that you might be able to find while not cutting those programs for Californians?
▶ 3:57:03Uh, sure, Congresswoman. I I pro, forgive me, I probably can give uh quite a few on on the subject, and believe me, not every I I wouldn't characterize everything as, you know, you fraud, waste, and abuse. There there's certainly some examples you find at time. There's just inefficient use of capital. I mean, for example, we, you know, $2 billion lost on Mars sample return. We spent $200 million keeping Mars sample return, even though the previous administration canceled it in a state of formulation last year.
▶ 3:57:28Most of the reductions that are proposed under the FY27 budget are are reduction of informulation missions, those that have not launched or those that have been up for decades where we we probably have opportunities to consolidate and continue to yield good science at lower cost to fund more of the things we need to do. We are not accepting any gaps in earth sciences.
▶ 3:57:48So uh whether NISAR pace we have on orbit assets for that LANCAT that are up there to do so and we have a plan in the 2030s when those existing assets may uh you know exceed their useful life to make a transition over to commercial industry. We are not giving up on wildfires. I went and and and had a chance to speak to the researchers of that between AS and those contributing at JPL to make sure we can get an uh autonomous wildfire detection leveraging onorbit assets, drones, communications. Like I do care about all these.
▶ 3:58:17As I said, from my perspective, the president's budget request is a challenge to me as the administrator to find where we have inefficient use of resources to focus on the things that we are supposed to be doing as an agency. So speaking of privatization, you know, right now NASA employs scientists that are extremely valuable to us from from a national security perspective, from many other perspectives, but a lot of times this privatization results in layoffs, and we've seen it at JPL with mass layoffs over the last few years. Many of those scientists are leaving the country and going to bring their talents overseas.
▶ 3:58:48Uh how does uh laying off government science scientists help the United States? And how do you prevent when in your privatization efforts from for-profit companies that are not accountable to the public in the same way that public employees are? How are you the good stewards of public money if portions of that are going into the profits of large companies?
▶ 3:59:09Well, I it's interesting you say that first. I to be clear I'm I'm I'm very rarely like a binary black or white thinker. I'm a make nuance great again kind of guy. And it's funny because I'm one once I I'm getting in trouble for insourcing and bringing back a lot of workforce from the private sector and the other areas. And that's because it's it's just not black and white. There are examples where industry has the capabilities that we can procure services at far lower cost when you have thousands of constellation satellites up there for Earth observation. Then there's examples where we should be doing things no one else is capable of doing with you.
▶ 3:59:39And and Congresswoman, I actually agree with you. I had a chance to look at why we uh there were some layoffs which I I would mind you would actually from the prior administration at JPL and it was because we turned off reimburseable the the previous administration had strong views that JPL should not support other government agencies and stopped doing that work and as a result they had to lay off a lot of talent there that could be helping other government agencies on some very exquisite scientific work.
▶ 4:00:05I've turned that back on to prevent those kind of layoffs because that is the kind of thing that NASA expertise should be applied for. Thank you. And I'm glad to hear that. And let me ask one last question. Um, Congress passed on a bipartisan basis a funding package for NASA earlier this year that set specific funding levels for NASA. Will you commit today on the record that you've instructed each of your division directors to spend at their specific division funding levels as set by Congress as it appeared in the appropriations table reports?
▶ 4:00:31And are you e executing the 2026 budget at the funding levels and in the manner Congress intended? And will you apply that same standard with whatever 2027 bill Congress approves?
▶ 4:00:41I you can count on uh me, Congresswoman, that we will always follow the law.
▶ 4:00:45Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 4:00:48Gentleoman yields. Uh [clears throat] this wraps up uh our hearing today. And Mr. Administrator, I want to thank you so very much for for being here and also for suspending while we uh we voted. I think we've uh learned a lot today and uh we will digest this and uh the record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and written questions uh from members. So with that this hearing is adjourned.
▶ 4:01:15Thank you.