▶ 0:15:34Will now come to order. The chair now recognizes himself for five minutes for an opening statement. Good morning and welcome to today's hearing, titled corrosion collapse and cleanup examining the potomac interceptor collapse. Today's hearing will examine the collapse of D.C. water's potomac interceptor, a 54 mile sanitary sewer system that runs through parts of virginia, maryland and D.C.
▶ 0:15:58The collapse, which occurred on january 19th, resulted in hundreds of gallons of untreated sewage overflowing onto nearby land and down the potomac river. This incident raised serious concerns about the resilience of critical wastewater infrastructure, and the impact that collapse or break like this can have on our communities, including on safe drinking water, public health, the environment, local businesses.
▶ 0:16:27The potomac interceptor is a vital component of the region's critical wastewater infrastructure. When it failed, it caused over 240 million gallons of wastewater to overflow into the potomac river, threatening water quality ecosystems and the health of surrounding communities that rely on this river for recreation, for fish and shellfish harvesting and safe water drinking water once it has been treated.
▶ 0:16:53Fortunately, because of where the collapse happened, the incident did not affect safe drinking water. But if the breakout happened just a few miles upstream, it would have been a completely different story. Still, the collapse had far reaching impacts on the region. From a public health perspective, exposure to untreated wastewater can carry harmful pathogens and pollutants, posing serious health risks to anyone who might be near the affected areas.
▶ 0:17:21Environmentally, wastewater discharge can degrade aquatic habitats, harm wildlife and have impacts on native species. Economically, the effects ripple outward, impacting local businesses, tourism, fisheries, some of which claim they have lost thousands of dollars of revenue due to public perception of the cleanliness of the river following this incident. This incident raises questions about the management and oversight of this critical infrastructure. What led to the collapse?
▶ 0:17:51Was this failure preventable? Were there warning signs that were being ignored or even missed? Did permitting requirements create unnecessary delays in moving forward with needed repairs? Given the age and the condition of the potomac interceptor, what is known about other vulnerabilities in the pipe and what is being done to prevent another break or collapse from eventually or possibly happening?
▶ 0:18:15Equally important is understanding the roles and the responsibilities of other entities as it relates to the potomac interceptor, dc water owns and operates potomac interceptor, but multiple agencies and jurisdictions have roles and responsibilities with respect to permitting and regulatory oversight, or have helped respond to the collapse, including federal partners such as the U.S. environmental protection agency, the U.S.
▶ 0:18:42Army corps of engineers and the national park service, as well as state and regional authorities. Today's hearing is about identifying failures or gaps, strengthening oversight, and ensuring that our infrastructure systems are equipped to protect the public and the environment in face of growing demands and aging assets. We owe it to the american people to fully understand the causes and the consequences of this failure, and to take meaningful steps to prevent similar incidents in the future.
▶ 0:19:12While this hearing will focus on the potomac interceptor, aging wastewater infrastructure is a nationwide problem. A thorough investigation into this led up to this incident, and the response following. It is critical to establish how best to repair similar infrastructure and to prevent another large scale spill. The facts established by this hearing can help us protect the health and the safety of communities that all of us represent. I want to thank our witnesses for being here today.
▶ 0:19:43We look forward to hearing from you to learn more about the incidents and the lessons learned. With that, I now recognize our ranking member of the subcommittee, miss clark, for her opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. On january 19th, part of the potomac interceptor collapsed, releasing more than 200 million gallons of raw sewage into the potomac river, resulting in one of the worst sewage overflows in U.S. history.
▶ 0:20:11Thankfully, D.C. water and federal partners quickly contained the overflow and made emergency repairs to stop the spill. So far, the emergency response appears to have been successful, but there are important lessons that need to be learned to prevent crises like these in our communities. Unfortunately, there appears to have been an avoidable emergency.
▶ 0:20:34It has long been known that segments of the more than 60 year old potomac interceptor was corroding and needed repairs. Like many other water utilities with aging infrastructure, D.C. water was aware that the potomac interceptor needed repairs and had a plan to make those repairs, but it did not get done in time. The potomac interceptor collapsed is not unique. It represents a common problem in america.
▶ 0:21:01Crumbling infrastructure ep a records tens of thousands of sewer overflows each year that release raw sewage into our communities and waterways. Epa does not even count how often sewer backups spill raw sewage into americans homes and businesses.
▶ 0:21:23Any pollution released into the potomac river risks significant local, regional and even national consequences. The coordinated response appears to have been addressed. Have addressed the mess that was caused by the collapse. However, they have ignored the.
▶ 0:21:41The president trump's decision to demolish the east wing of the white house to make way for a golden ballroom and look away as trump dumped the rubble, which contained lead and other toxic metals in a national park surrounded by the potomac river. Republicans have even defended the president's budget request, which proposes enormous cuts.
▶ 0:22:07Cuts to the very epa water programs that have prevented incidents like the potomac interceptor collapse. President trump's pro pollution agenda is creating harmful messes all over the place. We do not have the luxury of ignoring pollution in our communities or our national parks. Whether it is dumped there by the president, the result of sewage spill of a sewage spill, or due to administration giveaways to polluters.
▶ 0:22:37We will not prevent another potomac interceptor collapse or any other sewage spills by cutting the epa programs that help prevent them. And we're not doing enough by having a hearing on this one collapse. We should have we should be having oversight hearings on all the ways that the trump administration is allowing polluters to make our air and water less healthy. And why the president thought it was okay to knock down a third of the white house and dump it in a public park.
▶ 0:23:07This is only the 10th hearing in the oversight and investigation subcommittee. This congress, and this is only the third hearing in this subcommittee this year. With that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> thank you. The gentlelady yields. >> the chair recognizes the chairman of the full committee, Mr. guthrie, for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you. Good morning. Good morning to everyone. And thank you, chairman joyce, for convening this supportive hearing.
▶ 0:23:37Thank you, ranking member clark. We appreciate it. I also want to thank our witnesses for being before us today as we examine the potomac interceptor collapse and its consequences for public health, environmental safety and infrastructure reliability, the collapse of this critical wastewater system was not a minor incident.
▶ 0:23:54It resulted in the release of more than 240 million gallons, the equivalent equivalent of roughly 360 olympic sized swimming pools of untreated sewage into surrounding land and into the potomac river, which is a vital resource for the national capital region. This event raised serious public health concerns, disrupted ecosystems, and highlighted vulnerabilities in aging infrastructure that serve millions of americans.
▶ 0:24:23While emergency actions eventually contain the overflow of wastewater and repaired, the pipe and remediation efforts are still underway, significant questions remain about what was known about the condition of the pipe leading to the collapse, what was being done to address known vulnerabilities to the pipe, and whether there are other, similar or more urgent vulnerabilities in other sections. Of the 50 more 50 mile pipe.
▶ 0:24:47A key question today is whether there are lessons learned that can be applied moving forward to prevent something like this from happening. Happening again. Incidents like this erode public trust. Just as fraud undermines confidence in federal health programs, failures in critical infrastructure undermine confidence in the systems americans rely on every day. When infrastructure fails at this scale, consequences extend far beyond the immediate area.
▶ 0:25:16They can impact public safety, environmental resilience and economic activity. Today's hearing is about oversight, accountability and ensuring good stewardship of essential systems that the public relies on. Doing so ensures that infrastructure systems are properly maintained and risks are addressed proactively. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses and working towards solutions that strengthen oversight and protect our communities. With that, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> thank you. >> the gentleman yields.
▶ 0:25:46The chair recognizes the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. pallone, for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. The january collapse of a segment of the potomac interceptor led to hundreds of millions of gallons of wastewater flowing into the potomac river. And while the collapse did not threaten the capital's drinking water supply, this is yet another reminder of our nation's aging infrastructure and the risks of failing to address it.
▶ 0:26:13This hearing is an opportunity for us to examine what happened here, and how we can work to prevent and address infrastructure failures across the country. The potomac interceptor collapse received lots of attention due to its size and proximity to the nation's capital, but many of our nation's towns and cities continue to experience similar issues as infrastructure ages. Decades of underinvestment in our water systems have created a vicious cycle that plays out beneath our feet and out of sight.
▶ 0:26:41The reality is that addressing aging infrastructure requires resources and attention that it does not always receive. So the epa most recent needs assessment found a massive shortfall. Water utilities need more than $150 billion just to repair aging pipe systems, like the potomac interceptor that transports sewage to waste treatment facilities. And I ask if I could, Mr. chairman, unanimous consent to enter into the record.
▶ 0:27:08The president's 2020 budget request for epa and epa's most recent clean watersheds and drinking water needs survey. >> no objection. >> so ordered. Thank you, Mr. chairman. But despite these clear needs, just last month we watched republicans on this committee nod along as epa administrator zeldin argued for the massive cuts to water infrastructure funding included in trump's 2027 budget request.
▶ 0:27:34That budget request calls for an 86% cut to the drinking water state revolving fund, which helps water systems access low cost financing for needed upgrades like replacing lead service lines and upgrading treatment technology. Trump's budget calls for an even larger 90% cut to the clean water state revolving fund, which provides essential support for wastewater and stormwater projects that protect public health.
▶ 0:27:57Overall, the president's budget requests a 67% cut to epa's office of water, meaning water infrastructure would receive less funding, and communities will continue to grapple with aging infrastructure and contaminants. Now, america's water systems are struggling, and trump's budget proposals would only make that worse.
▶ 0:28:16Epa did good work in helping to address the serious issues created by the potomac interceptor collapse, but an effective emergency response does nothing to prevent future incidents. Unfortunately, massive cuts to epa programs that help prevent water infrastructure from failing would almost guarantee a future with more emergencies, where epa simply lurches from one preventable water crisis to the next. Trump has made crystal clear what his priorities are.
▶ 0:28:43While americans struggle to make ends meet, republicans are planning to give $1 billion in taxpayer dollars to trump for the white house ballroom that he touted would be privately funded. When trump was asked how to. Economic toll on american ways on him, he responded, and I quote, I don't think americans. I don't think about americans financial situation. So his reckless war of choice against iran has now racked up about $30 billion in direct costs, and countless more in damage to our economy and expense to americans at the grocery store and the gas pump.
▶ 0:29:14And now the trump administration has created a $1.8 billion slush fund to pay off trump's friends and followers, potentially including those who stormed the capitol and assaulted capitol police officers. So the president has proven time and time again that his priorities are not in the best interests of the american people. Rather than gutting our water infrastructure programs, we should be investing in them so that incidents like the potomac interceptor collapse are less common than they already are. But that's not what's happening with this president and this administration.
▶ 0:29:44They simply don't care about infrastructure or about the public's financial situation. It's unfortunate, and hopefully we can change that. And with that, I yield back the balance of my time, Mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields. That concludes members opening statements. The chair would like to remind members that pursuant to the committee rules, all members written opening statements will be made part of the record. We want to thank our witnesses for being here today and for taking the time to testify before the subcommittee.
▶ 0:30:11You will have the opportunity to give opening statement, followed by a round of question from members. Our witnesses today are jessica kramer, assistant administrator, office of water, U.S. environmental protection agency. Colonel francis parra, commander, U.S. army corps of engineers, the baltimore district. And edward wensloff, acting superintendent, chesapeake and ohio canal national historic park, national park service, U.S. department of interior.
▶ 0:30:37We appreciate all of you being here today, and I look forward to hearing from you. You are aware that this committee is holding an oversight hearing, and when doing so, has the practice of taking the testimony under oath. Do you have any objection to testifying under oath? Seeing no objection, we'll proceed. The chair advises you that you are entitled to be advised by counsel pursuant to house rules. Do you desire to be to be advised by counsel during your testimony today?
▶ 0:31:06Seeing none, please rise. Raise your right hand. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Seeing the witnesses of all answered in the affirmative, you are now sworn in and under oath, subject to the penalties set forth in title 18, section 1001 of the united states code.
▶ 0:31:33You may be seated. With that, I now recognize assistant administrator kramer for five minutes to give an opening statement. >> good morning, chairman john joyce, ranking member clark and members of the subcommittee. My name is jess kramer, and I'm the assistant administrator for the office of water at the us environmental protection agency. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today about epa's role in leading a successful, coordinated federal response to the potomac interceptor collapse.
▶ 0:32:02On may 6th, the federal government completed its remediation of the potomac interceptor collapse area and fully demobilized its presence on site. The goal of this federal assistance was to expeditiously remediate the collapse site and surrounding area. I'm proud of the work epa, along with our federal partners, did to ensure this was completed in time for the america 250 festivities and deliver on the agency's commitment to restore the potomac to pre collapse conditions.
▶ 0:32:32Throughout this process, epa maintained open and transparent lines of communication with our partners at all levels and with the public. As you are likely aware, several weeks ago, the department of justice on behalf of the epa, also filed a civil complaint in federal court against dc water and the district of columbia for clean water act violations. In keeping with long standing agency practice, epa does not comment on pending litigation.
▶ 0:33:00The potomac interceptor is a sanitary sewer line managed by dc water that conveys up to 60 million gallons of wastewater every day from parts of virginia and maryland to dc waters. Blue plains advanced wastewater treatment plant. On january 19th, 2026, a portion of the pipe, which was 72in in diameter, collapsed, causing an estimated 240 million gallons of raw, untreated sewage to flow into the potomac river.
▶ 0:33:28Following the collapse, epa's mid-atlantic regional office region three performed inspections in coordination with state and local partners and issued a clean water act section 308 information request to dc water. Epa took on a heightened role in coordinating and leading the federal response to the collapse in mid-february, when dc mayor muriel bowser declared a public emergency and requested federal assistance to address the pipe collapse, president trump immediately approved mayor bowser's request, and on
▶ 0:33:58February 21st, 2026, assigned epa as the lead federal agency to respond to the emergency. I was designated as the senior response officer overseeing the effort. Senior officials at epa, including administrator zeldin and myself, have been consistently engaged and on site as appropriate throughout the repair and remediation process.
▶ 0:34:19Epa actively coordinated with partners at all levels to ensure appropriate and expeditious measures were utilized to protect public health and prevent additional overflows. For example, the army corps of engineers installed a wastewater diversion system which allowed crews to remediate the collapse through wet weather while mitigating further contamination from stormwater runoff. Additionally, federal partners led the remediation and rehabilitation of soil impacted by the overflow with soil sampling beginning on march 9th, 2026.
▶ 0:34:51Thanks in part to the coordinated federal actions, on site wastewater flow was returned to the potomac interceptor on march 14th, a full week ahead of projected schedule. This allowed the focus of ongoing work to fully center on the remaining environmental remediation. Epa continued to lead the federal components of that remediation in coordination with fema, the us army corps of engineers, the national park service and other federal partners.
▶ 0:35:17Remediation and rehabilitation activities included water and soil sampling, raking and removing contaminated material, including sewage impacted soils covering disturbed soil with seed mix and erosion control blankets, removing branches, fallen trees, brush and debris, and flushing the cno canal with fresh water from the potomac.
▶ 0:35:39Additionally, on march 16th, epa assumed responsibility for water quality quality sampling previously conducted by the dc department of energy and environment. The daily sample results were processed at epa's environmental science center located at fort meade, maryland. The results for each day sampling were evaluated quality assured, before being posted on publicly. Excuse me, posted publicly on doh east potomac interceptor monitoring web page.
▶ 0:36:05A top priority for epa throughout this response was ensuring continued drinking water safety. Fortunately, the sewage overflow occurred downstream of the washington aqueducts primary drinking water intake. In addition, other than the aqueduct secondary intake, which has been closed since fall of 2025, there are no other drinking water intakes along the potomac river downstream of the overflow site. As a result, the overflow did not significantly threaten safe drinking water.
▶ 0:36:31From the onset of this response, we made clear that epa would be on the ground working at full speed until the potomac interceptor site and surrounding area were fully remediated. Thanks to president trump's decisive action and leadership and a coordinated effort across federal agencies, we kept that promise and restored the potomac river to pre-collapse conditions. Thank you again, chairman joyce, ranking member clark, and members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to discuss this important issue, and I look forward to answering your questions today. >> thank you.
▶ 0:36:59With that, the chair now recognizes colonel para for his five minutes for an opening statement. >> chairman joyce, vice chairman balderson, ranking member clark, and members of the subcommittee. I'm honored to testify before you today on the potomac interceptor collapse and to represent the us army corps of engineers, baltimore district, who, in addition to responding to the collapse, has command responsibility for the washington aqueduct, which has provided safe water to the national capital region for more than 165 years.
▶ 0:37:29I'd like to deliver a clear bottom line reassurance to this committee and to the public. The drinking water supply managed by the washington aqueduct remains completely safe, secure and unaffected as our drinking water system is entirely separate from D.C. water's regional wastewater infrastructure, including the potomac interceptor. The washington aqueduct collects source water from the potomac river at two locations great falls and little falls.
▶ 0:37:55Once collected, this water travels via conduits to our conventional treatment and purification plants before distribution to three wholesale customers dc water, fairfax water and arlington county. The finished water meets or exceeds all epa standards. The spill from the potomac interceptor occurred several miles downstream from our great falls intake and several miles upstream from our little falls intake. Because our little falls intake had been closed since the fall of 2025 due to low seasonal demand.
▶ 0:38:24The source water was being drawn exclusively from our great falls intake and unaffected by the spill. Our operations team confirmed this immediately after notification that a spill had occurred. To ensure the stability of water at our intakes, washington aqueduct personnel sample and test source water at the intakes frequently in any given year. Our epa certified testing lab conducts more than 65,000 individual tests for hundreds of bacterial, organic, and inorganic compounds.
▶ 0:38:54We are fully committed to public safety beyond the normal operations of the washington aqueduct, the corps of engineers remains on the front lines of response to flood and disaster events. On february 20th, the president approved federal support to the district of columbia's emergency declaration. That evening, the corps of engineers activated its emergency operations center on february 21st. We were walking the ground with our technical response team, emergency contractor and D.C. water.
▶ 0:39:21By february 22nd, we designed a stormwater diversion system and had the first components installed. By. That same evening, we completed the full installation. Within a week. This diversion system served two goals. First, it safeguarded the pumping site used to divert wastewater, while emergency repairs and remediation could proceed. Forecasted rain threatened to inundate bypass operations and we were there to prevent that.
▶ 0:39:48Second, it safeguarded the environment by inhibiting further pollution from entering the potomac river. We did this by channeling clean stormwater away from the contaminated soil before it entered the potomac river at a nearby confluence under the leadership of the epa. Through the mission assignment process of fema, corps of engineers facilitated the timely remediation of land impacted by the spill by assuming responsibility for two of the four identified remediation areas.
▶ 0:40:13Those areas were known as areas two and three and focused on the soil underneath rock run culvert and the downstream creek bank areas where the runoff enters the potomac river. With a deference to the ecosystem and to public safety, our crews took an almost surgical approach to removing soil in three inch layers where visual contamination was present. This material was safely transported to an approved offsite disposal facility.
▶ 0:40:37My written testimony contains additional operational details and visual reference of remediation for areas two and three. The baltimore district stands prepared to do what the corps of engineers does best provide world class engineering solutions to our nation's toughest challenges. We look forward to working with the committee on this issue. Thank you, Mr. chairman, and members of this committee. This concludes my statement, and I look forward to answering questions you or the other members may have. Thank you. >> gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes Mr.
▶ 0:41:04Edward henshaw for five minutes for an opening statement. >> chairman. >> ranking member, clerk and members. >> of the. >> subcommittee, thank you for. >> the. >> opportunity to discuss the recent break in the potomac interceptor sanitary sewer system in the department. >> of the army. >> you might want to pull the mic a little closer.
▶ 0:41:26>> the chesapeake and ohio canal national historical park contains, within its legislative boundary, a significant stretch of the potomac interceptor, managed by the district of columbia water and sewer authority, commonly referred to as D.C. water. Constructed in the 1960s, the pipeline ranges up to 92in in diameter and conveys up to 60 million gallons of wastewater per day to the district of columbia's blue plains wastewater treatment facility. The presence of D.C.
▶ 0:41:54Water infrastructure on land administered by the national park service is not unique to the cno canal park. Due to the age of the city's infrastructure, a substantial portion of the system lies beneath park land throughout the district.
▶ 0:42:08The nps has been working closely with dc water on major initiatives, including the now completed anacostia river tunnel project and the clean rivers project, which spans three separate national park units and includes multiple combined sewage overflow projects within rock creek park. On january 19th, 2026, cno canal park staff received notification of an active sewage overflow within park boundaries near the interstate 495 crossing in montgomery county, maryland.
▶ 0:42:40The overflow affected an eastbound lane of the clara barton parkway and flowed through parkland, exiting via the historic rock run masonry culvert and into the potomac river to mitigate further impacts, the nps permitted dc water to use the section of the cno canal to bypass the collapsed pipe and convey wastewater 4/10 of a mile downstream, where it then flowed back into the potomac interceptor.
▶ 0:43:06Dc water started using the canal to bypass the break on january 24th, 2026, dc water completed temporary repairs, removed the bypass pumps, and returned full wastewater flow to the potomac interceptor on march 14th, 2026.
▶ 0:43:24Following the interim repair, the nps, dc water, the us army corps of engineers and the us environmental protection agency initiated remediation across four defined areas stormwater channel, the rock run stream and culvert, the potomac river shoreline, and the canal prism from lock 14 to lock ten. Remediation is complete in the first three areas and continues in the canal.
▶ 0:43:46Prism crews remove contaminated soils in the prism down to the clay liner and deeper in some sections, where additional contamination was visible. Work crews are removing soil with hand tools from within the locks and using soap, water and bristle brushes to scrub and clean the historic masonry.
▶ 0:44:05Once remediation is complete, the nps will work with dc water on long term restoration, including replanting of trees and shrubs and understory vegetation, as well as restoring a threatened plant species for for resources that cannot be restored, the nps can seek response costs and damages under title 54 of the united states code. We will pursue cost recovery under the special use permit for monitoring and response efforts.
▶ 0:44:29The nps will continue coordinating with dc water on long term repair and rehabilitation of the portion proportion of the potomac interceptor, located within the legislative boundaries of the cno canal park. Mr. chairman, this concludes my testimony and I'm happy to answer any questions you or the subcommittee have. >> I thank you all for your testimony and we will now move to questioning. I will begin and recognize myself for five minutes. A question for all three of you.
▶ 0:44:54First of all, please delineate the timeline of when you were first notified of what occurred on january 19th. Assistant administrator kramer, when was the epa notified? >> the epa was notified on january 19th. >> colonel, when was the army corps notified? >> chairman the army corps was notified on january 19th. >> and when was the. Mr. henshaw, when was the national park service notified?
▶ 0:45:25>> national park service was notified on the evening of january 19th. >> so knowing that you were all notified on the day that the actions first were witnessed to occur, what were your first initial inaction actions? Assistant administrator kramer. >> chairman inspectors from our region three office were on site the next day on january 20th. >> colonel, when was the army corps on site? Chairman.
▶ 0:45:51>> our operations department for the washington aqueduct was on site within an hour of notification. Um, our initial look was at the intakes, so we checked two intakes, one at the great falls intake and the second at little falls, just to validate that we had a level of contamination that was either nonexistent or at a treatable level. >> Mr. henshaw, when was the national park service on site?
▶ 0:46:14>> the united states park police were on site around the time of the break, on the 19th and then national park staff from the park went down on the 20th. >> we understand that this crosses many jurisdictions, and that's why we wanted to set the table with discussion with each and every one of you, of what are your involvement and how early that involvement occurred.
▶ 0:46:38Assistant administrator kramer, recognizing these jurisdictional boundaries, what can impact which entitles underlying permitting and oversight and enforcement? What impact do you feel because of the location of that pipe is at issue? Where does each of the entities come into play? >> thank you. Chairman. Um, it is a little bit complex. So I'm going to start with the with the dc water facility, the blue plains facility, because that is in the district of columbia.
▶ 0:47:09Epa is the permitting authority under the clean water act, section 402, which is the authority that we issue. We. Epa issue npdes national pollutant discharge elimination system permits epa issues that npdes permit to dc water. That provision that permit, excuse me, includes limits, uh, to ensure that there are not exceedances of pollutants from discharges, point source discharges to waters of the united states. The.
▶ 0:47:35>> let me interrupt at that point, because you talk about dc water, and they claim that the last overflow to reach the potomac river occurred on february 8th. In march, however, it was determined. And, colonel, I'll ask you to comment on this. It was determined that sampling that contaminated water was leaking out of the culvert that is located underneath the portion of the c and o canal that was being used as part of the bypass system that you referenced to hold and route the wastewater around the collapsed location.
▶ 0:48:02Is that the same culvert under which the unnamed tributary runs through and down the potomac river? >> chairman that is the same, um, that area underneath the culvert is a perennial stream that exits and enters. >> can you speak closer to the microphone? Sorry. >> I'm sorry. Um, chairman, you're correct that, um, that tributary that you're talking about runs underneath rockwall culvert and enters.
▶ 0:48:27It's part of a perennial stream that enters into confluence between that stream and the, and the potomac, um, at the end of it. So short answer is yes. >> am I correct that the us army corps of engineers subsequently installed a sandbag dam and pumping operation to divert the water that was coming from the leak? >> chairman there was already a dam in existence, part of our scope of work. >> did you reinforce that dam? >> we did. Reinforce.
▶ 0:48:57>> what materials did you use to reinforce that? >> so it was we had a poly liner, right, to prevent any of the runoff and to contain it. And then it was held in place by sandbags to prevent vertical control of the. >> did you feel that was successful? >> we did feel that was successful. >> do you feel that it could have been other components that would have made that even more successful from the overflow that you were seeing. >> the overflow that we were trying to control with the original, um, establishment of that dam was really for the cleaning effort of the rock wall culvert.
▶ 0:49:25So that, that goes back to the, the detergent and brushing that Mr. winchell talked about underneath the culvert as part of our scope. Once we determined that there was also a leak coming from the cno canal into that culvert, that a couple of things happened. One, we controlled the water coming from the far side and piped it through the culvert so it didn't run within the culvert and then out to the perennial stream. That was the first measure to control wastewater coming out. The second one was installing a bypass pump.
▶ 0:49:54So once we pretty much collected the water underneath the culvert in that containment poly line system, we pumped it from there back into a contaminated stream within the cno canal. >> do you feel that those measures protected that perennial stream? >> I feel like they did. >> do you feel that additional measures could have even protected it to a greater extent. >> at that point? Chairman, I think that we took the best measures we could based on the environment that was as it existed that day and the tools that we had available.
▶ 0:50:23I'm not sure that there was another option available. >> my time has expired. I now yield to the ranking member, miss clarke, for her five minutes of questioning. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. We cannot ignore the disasters happening in our communities, our national parks or the white house. We do not have the luxury to think small.
▶ 0:50:43We must see the potomac interceptor collapse and place it in the larger context of our country's aging infrastructure and an administration's actions that put polluters over people so that we can act on the lessons learned. Miss kramer, as the senior response officer. And in your testimony, you this morning, you recounted the interagency response in the wake of the sewage spill.
▶ 0:51:10I imagine you can offer a cross-agency perspective and thinking about future recovery efforts, what worked here, and what advice would you give to other local governments or utilities facing a similar situation to the ones we're discussing here today? >> thank you. Um, I'm going to start with the end of your question. First.
▶ 0:51:34I think that everybody that's spoken today, uh, on the dais has mentioned aging infrastructure. Uh, there's no question that we have an aging infrastructure, uh, issue facing our drinking water and wastewater infrastructure across this country. Asset management is more important than ever. We talk about the various funding opportunities that exist, the clean, the safe state revolving funds, the wifia program, various programs that we have that funnel through epa.
▶ 0:52:00Those funds can't address operations and maintenance by law. They're not they're not able to be provided for that. And so it is time for us to look critically across this sector and focus on asset management, which is one of one of the biggest priorities that we have in the office of water right now. Um, I'll pivot to your second question or your first question, I suppose. >> sorry, just what do you mean by asset management?
▶ 0:52:26>> um, physical infrastructure management, assessing, uh, vulnerabilities that exist, uh, earlier and in real time by, by the municipalities that own and operate the infrastructure, um, ensuring that they're so technical, managerial and financial capability, which is a requirement for operation that we as epa look at, uh, across drinking water and wastewater, um, systems, ensuring that that tmf capacity is sufficient to, to be projecting out what action
▶ 0:52:57Should be taken and how do you apply the funds that you have in a way that not only allows for operations and maintenance, which again, can't be provided, can't be covered by those federal funds, but also is, is a real, true forward looking projection of the assets and the physical infrastructure that you have ahead of you so that you are addressing vulnerabilities before something like a collapse happens.
▶ 0:53:20So it's that strategic, holistic look, um, that to be, to be frank, is challenged right now not only because of the aging infrastructure, but also because of the workforce crisis that we have in the drinking water and the wastewater space. You have aging, a workforce that is aging out. You have a wide range of different types of facilities and different workforces that are needed.
▶ 0:53:40And so especially building up that workforce force around that technical, managerial, and financial capability to be able to do these projections and really focus on, on the management of these physical infrastructure pieces that is so vital right now. And so, um, this is this is a critical moment for us to be having that discussion and for us in the office of water at epa to be really focused on that through the training and technical assistance that we provide. >> thank you.
▶ 0:54:09Luck played a large part in keeping dc's drinking water safe. If the potomac interceptor collapse had been further upriver, the capital's water supply could have been contaminated. We're not. We cannot rely on luck. That's why in 2022, congress ordered the army corps of engineers to conduct a feasibility study to identify a secondary water source for the washington, dc area and provided funding for that study in 2024.
▶ 0:54:35Earlier this year, however, the army corps of engineers testified to congress that it was narrowing that feasibility study to only a 12 hour expansion of the existing reservoir to find a quick win that addresses some of the near-term issues. Colonel para if the potomac interceptor collapse had contaminated dc's drinking water, how would 12 more hours of contaminated drinking water been useful to the impacted residents?
▶ 0:55:08>> representative clark, I would agree that the additional 12 hours would be of limited utility. The secondary water source effort that we're looking at right now within the corps of engineers does provide a capacity for additional drinking water. If you think about the fact that we that this has been in existence for 165 years, getting to a point now where we acknowledge the requirement for a secondary source is important, but larger regional solutions will take time to develop and there will be multibillion dollar efforts. What we're doing is two efforts.
▶ 0:55:38In parallel, we're looking at a first federal effort to be able to produce an actionable item that can have some sort of meaningful impact within the short term, and that was what was briefed to you, ma'am. So that is that 12 hours that we gain immediately. In parallel, we are working with federal partners, state partners, nonfederal entities to look at other ways to be able to source a secondary solution outside of what we're doing right now with the federal government.
▶ 0:56:04And that effort is being taken on by the washington suburban sanitary commission and other partners who are in the water space. And what we're doing is we're pairing those efforts, and we're approaching them simultaneously so that as we create that short win, we're also working toward the engineering, designing, and then the funding for that larger effort that's going to take more time to get in place. So I agree that the initial effort that the corps of engineers is approaching is a smaller effort, but it is part of a larger solution. >> very well. I yield back, Mr.
▶ 0:56:35Chairman. >> gentlelady yields. The chair now recognizes chair of the committee, Mr. guthrie, for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chair, and and I'm going to be focused on superintendent if I lunch off if if, uh, my questions be directed at you and and it's with the spirit of we have to figure out what happened and how we fix it going into the future. I actually represent mammoth cave national park and the boyhood and birthplace of president lincoln. So, uh, the national park service is very important in my district and things like this. We want to make sure are done correctly and great respect for.
▶ 0:57:05But I want to start there was an article in the washington post in april that described how concerned. So I quote concerns about the removal of trees and vegetation, along with other environmental impacts. Postpone repairs to the potomac interceptor. The article also notes, however, the D.C. water repeatedly proposed changes to its repair plans, which forced national park service to restart its environmental assessments. And as I said, if you got, you know, cars, so all water goes to the lowest point.
▶ 0:57:36So that's, uh, so we always have to protect mammoth cave, but it gets to the point where you're looking at what we saw as a disastrous, uh, failure versus, and I'm a tree person versus, uh, trees and vegetation. So would you want to talk about that article? And was it fair in saying that there was seemed to be some minor, some some minor environmental concerns seem to delay repair what became a major environmental concern was that to comment on that. That's the way I read it.
▶ 0:58:06>> thank you. Thank you for your question. Um, so we review, uh, applications for projects and the environmental review assessment review timeline begins when we have a clear and complete and well-defined proposal to review, which has a clear goal and can be meaningfully evaluated. >> well, it sounded like the water would propose you would give a permit, give them some change to make a change and restart the process. Is that what happens?
▶ 0:58:32And so it just seemed like, from what I've read and studied, that everybody knew this needed to be fixed. We just could never get to a place to get the permit to fix it. Is that a fair statement of what happened? >> well, the process, the process can accommodate some design changes after it begins. But if there's a wholesale change in the project scope and goals that precludes a meaningful analysis and it creates a new. >> well, we move with speed. Once that happened because we saw the result of not getting the permit. So.
▶ 0:59:01So what changes once there's an emergency declared? >> well, once an emergency is declared, like, uh, the, the collapsed pipe. Right. We were able to, um, we worked with dc water to verbally and via email correspondence to approve their emergency actions, uh, within the short time frame within that first week. So they could return the wastewater flow into the canal prism per their request. >> so obviously the collapse exposed the problem.
▶ 0:59:29I mean, we were looking, you could see it, but it, it seemed like we could have had some kind of reaction quicker based on what was going to happen, what we thought could happen. Did did the park service just kind of look at it and go, well, we don't think this is going to collapse. It did and did. Did dc water say we think this is this is critical? I mean, it gets to the point where it seems we spent a lot of time trying to get a permit, didn't get the permit in time to fix the problem.
▶ 0:59:58The problem happens and it becomes an environmental problem or disaster. I guess we could even use those terms. And so I'm trying to say, what do we need to fix to to say we need to get a permit when we think this is when we think this is going to happen, not after it happens, how do we do it quicker? And would that be the core? Is that through the national park service, I think it's the national park service is what the hangup was. >> yeah.
▶ 1:00:21For for construction permits that are proposed by utilities, those could be from six months to a year for a construction permit, uh, a general request. Uh, there are others that are identified as high priority where there may be an imminent issue or in this case, is. >> this never considered a minute? Was it never considered a minute? I mean, when you were reviewing the permits, was it ever considered an imminent threat to the environment or.
▶ 1:00:49>> I think the specifics of that situation are subject to the litigation, the things before the collapse. >> okay. Well, so so in general, because I understand, I appreciate that is, is that it appears to me or pierces a lot of us that over the want of getting a permit when you're removing and I'm not dismissing moving trees and vegetation, that's important. Mammoth cave is as beautiful above ground as it is below.
▶ 1:01:12Uh, but it gets to a point where you're going to this threats out there, and there needs to be a way to make sure that what we're trying to save doesn't becomes a bigger problem down the road. Environmentally, it was environmental disaster. So we're trying to save vegetation and trees, create an environmental disaster down the road. That's what we're trying to fix. That's what we want to get the answers. What is there any comment that you would like to make on that? >> well, yeah, thank you again.
▶ 1:01:41The park service is focused on resource protection of the natural and cultural resources, and we conduct the legally required compliance that we have to do for historic resources, cultural resources, archeology, uh, tribal consultation, as well as visitor visitor safety. >> I understand if I was going to go build a pipe through mammoth cave, but the pipe was already through there and so they just needed to fix it. That's, that's the problem. And so it gets into all of the well, I know I'm, I'm out of time. But that's the frustration.
▶ 1:02:10Frustration from my perspective is that and your people, I just want to finish. I'm not going to yield back. The people of kentucky, the park service people are fantastic to work with. I found that, uh, so I'll say that, but it just seems frustrating that we got all these processes and here we are, people having to deal with the sewage dumped into the river and they're, you know, affects their drinking water. And it's frustrating for all of us, I yield back. >> gentleman yields chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. pallone, for five minutes for his questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:02:38The potomac interceptor collapse is an unfortunate reminder of our aging water infrastructure, much of which desperately needs increased investment to help pay for repairs and system upgrades. And trump is ignoring these needs and putting our infrastructure at greater risk while prioritizing his ballroom and this latest corrupt slush fund to pay off his followers, including those who stormed the capitol.
▶ 1:03:04His proposed budget would gut the clean water and drinking water state revolving funds that provide water assistance with resources to make necessary repairs and improvements. And our water systems need more support, not less. Otherwise, incidents like the potomac interceptor collapse will only become more common in communities will be left cleaning up the mess.
▶ 1:03:23My question is that miss cramer, epa's last needs assessments, collectively found that more than $1.2 trillion is needed to improve and repair our water systems. Is that correct? >> I believe so, yes. >> and then, um, trump's budget request for the next fiscal year proposes an 86% and 90% cut for the drinking water and clean water state revolving funds. Is that correct?
▶ 1:03:53>> that amount does not include the congressionally delegated spending. And also I think it's important to offer, um, one of the one of the pieces of information that I've learned over the last few weeks is that there is approximately $14.8 billion of excessive uncommitted funds in the both the drinking water and the, the safe drinking water and clean water. Srf and what that means is that the money is getting to the states.
▶ 1:04:20The states aren't getting it out the door, and so excessive uncommitted funds are determined, are categorized as those funds that have been sitting essentially in the state coffers for a year or greater. And so with respect to the amount that we have determined is sitting there, um, that is a huge priority under administrator zeldins leadership that we are going to work with the states to get that money out the door, because it doesn't do any good to get the money to the states. If the states aren't actually getting it out to the communities that need it.
▶ 1:04:50>> all right. Thank you. Now, epa's own assessment found water systems need billions more than they currently get. So how are water systems going to make needed capital investments? If the president's budget nearly eliminates the epa program that helped meet that need? >> so I think exactly what I was just talking about, um, we need to ensure that the money that is in the state coffers and continues to go out to the states actually gets from the state program into the drinking water and wastewater systems hands.
▶ 1:05:20And so we've been doing a robust analysis not only of the clean water and drinking water srf, but also, um, of the lead service line replacement grant dollars that have gone out. Um, we're doing the same kind of assessment for the emerging contaminants small and disadvantaged communities grant program.
▶ 1:05:37Um, and so ensuring that the dollars that are already there, the dollars that are ready and able to go out to those communities get there so that they can not only be making those capital improvements that are necessary, but also ensuring that we're pairing that with the technical assistance, um, initiative that I was, um, that I was referencing when I was speaking with the ranking member before about ensuring that communities have the, the, the technical, managerial and financial capability to understand how to apply those funds. >> well, I appreciate that.
▶ 1:06:06And I'm not suggesting you shouldn't do that, but I still think that we're never going to get to anywhere near this $1.2 trillion that's needed that you said is needed to improve and repair our water systems. And, you know, the problem is that trump's proposals, its cuts go far beyond simply suggesting cuts that actually guts some of these programs.
▶ 1:06:26So like it or not, um, you know, um, if you really want to prevent incidents like the potomac interceptor collapse from happening, uh, you just can't cut infrastructure investments. And I understand you get some of that state money out, I appreciate it, but cutting infrastructure investments, in my opinion, only leads to a future where more of our water systems are at risk and communities are left cleaning up the mess.
▶ 1:06:53Um, and I just think that with what you look when you look at trump's budget, um, it's not only, uh, you know, it goes way beyond, um, whatever money you're going to, you know, get that's already out there. I mean, I think we need more funding if we're ever going to get to address this $1.2 trillion in, uh, in funding that, that you, that you say that, uh, that, that we need.
▶ 1:07:19Um, so again, I, I appreciate everybody's, um, input today. This is certainly an important hearing, but there's a lot more that needs to be done. And providing more funding at the federal level is clearly an important part of that. So thank you, Mr. chairman. I yield back. >> gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the vice president of the committee, the gentleman from ohio, Mr. balson for five. I meant vice chairman, not vice president, as I said, I just promoted him. Motion chairman. Uh. >> thank you. >> Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:07:49Recognized for five minutes. Um. >> good morning everyone. Thank you all for being here. Uh, colonel, I'm going to direct my questions to you first. Uh, your testimony notes that the washington aqueducts regional drinking water supply, which produces drinking water for approximately 1 million people in dc and parts of virginia, remain safe and unaffected since the collapse and spill was fortunately downstream from the washington aqueducts primary water intake at great falls.
▶ 1:08:17To help give folks a sense of the intake sites as compared to where the potomac interceptor collapse was and spill happened. How far upstream is the great falls water intake from where the potomac interceptor collapse occurred? >> vice chairman baldwin it's about 5.8 miles north of where the spill occurred. >> thank you.
▶ 1:08:39And how far downstream from the collapse is the secondary little falls water intake site that was thankfully not in use at the time. >> vice chairman. I believe it's just shy of four miles. >> perfect. Thank you. Colonel. As we know, the potomac interceptor is a 54 mile pipe, much of which runs either along or under portions of the potomac river. How would safe drinking water be impacted if a break in potomac interceptor occurred?
▶ 1:09:07Upstream from the great falls and little falls intake sites? As first question and the follow up is, is there a possibility that the region's drinking water could be impacted? >> vice chairman I think the short answer is there is a possibility that the drinking water could be impacted. However, we have had recent events starting in 2024 when a algae bloom happened around july 3rd.
▶ 1:09:31Uh, that really kind of set in motion a very cooperative, um, level of communication among water utilities along the breath of the potomac river. Um, and as we identify risks to that, what we've learned is that getting the water to a treatable level is a top priority.
▶ 1:09:48When we talk about the amount of time with our water holding, how much time that gives us operationally to one, stop the water before it enters the intakes, make decisions at that point on how we're going to either have the water flow by the great, the great fall intake as it gets to the little fall intake, and then restore the great fall intake, all of those become operational, operational considerations that we can make.
▶ 1:10:13I think for us, this really just kind of pushes to the forefront what ranking member clarke brought up the idea of the secondary water source? Um, this I would not say a doomsday scenario, but it is a realistic scenario that there could be risk to both intakes. And because we haven't had that situation yet, does not mean that it's not possible. And mitigating against that with the secondary sources option is obviously the most direct path.
▶ 1:10:39But for for right now it's about controlling the water at the intake, getting it to a treatable level. That means close coordination with the other utilities, with epa before we start the treatment process, and then also the investment in the washington aqueduct to allow it to move from a conventional treatment process to an advanced treatment process, which allows for an ability to treat more than what it does today through the normal sedimentation, filtration and disinfection process. >> well done. Thank you. I appreciate that answer.
▶ 1:11:08Um, I have a short time left. I'm going to try to get this last question in your testimony. Also, your testimony also notes that the great falls intake site was able to provide all the necessary raw water to require to meet water demand. At the time of the incident, which was approximately 130 million gallons a day. If a break in wastewater overflow happened upstream from the two intake sites, and the intakes needed to be closed throughout the response effort, how much water storage capacity do we have? Is the first question.
▶ 1:11:37And how long would it be to supply the region with its water needs, such as drinking water? Fire suppression for dc, arlington, fairfax and for those two intake sites closed? >> vice chairman balderston? Um, when we talk about the secondary approach that ranking member clarke brought up, that added about 54 acre feet of storage capacity. We're at about 47 acre feet right now in our reservoir.
▶ 1:12:01So we're estimating close to that same 12 hours that we would be getting with that additional expansion of the reservoir. So it's close to about 12 hours right now. Um, there are some control measures that you can put in through communication, strategic communication on, you know, holding off on water use that we can do through our pow platforms. But right now it's about 12 hours. >> okay. Well done. Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I yield back.
▶ 1:12:29>> gentleman yields chair now recognizes gentlelady from colorado, Mr. jet, for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. renshaw, the breach we're talking about occurred on federal land under the control of the national park service. Is that correct? The yes or no will work. >> yes. The break occurred. >> and all three of the witnesses today, including you, uh, were informed of the leak. Uh, on january 19th.
▶ 1:12:57And the federal government was there on january 20th, is that correct? >> yes. For the national park service now. >> so, so, um, um, on february 18th. So, so the, so the, the federal government was there, uh, right away, but on federal february 18th, mayor >> bowser asked for declaration of a federal emergency.
▶ 1:13:26Is that correct? >> I believe that's the case. I yeah, I don't have that specific. >> okay. And on february 20th, that was when president trump approved a federal emergency declaration of emergency. Isn't that correct? >> yes. >> emergency declaration. Now, miss kramer, when that happened, it changed the epa's role from supporting the state efforts to leading the coordinated response. Isn't that correct?
▶ 1:13:58That's correct. Now, um, um, I say this because there's been some confusion about who was in charge. And unfortunately, rather than just saying this is this is federal land, we're going to coordinate it. The president posted that maryland governor wes moore was to blame for this incident. But I want to understand how the federal response was being led.
▶ 1:14:22And I also want to understand what we can do to improve this in the future, because a national event of this significance, which endangers public health, should not be used as a political partizan event. So I want to ask a couple more questions.
▶ 1:14:42Um, miss kramer, you talked about you testified about the aging infrastructure and the needs assessment that we have, the this these built up needs of $1.2 trillion, is that right? Correct. And so I hear what you're saying about that. We need to ensure that money gets out there.
▶ 1:15:03And I hear what you're saying that you're trying to coordinate, that the states get it out, but at some point you just need enough money. Wouldn't that be fair to say you can't do something with nothing. >> if the money is not getting out to the communities, it it really kind of doesn't matter how much money there is, unfortunately. >> you need you need both. You need the money and you need the disbursement, right? If you don't have the money, you can't disburse it. And we.
▶ 1:15:31That's right. >> we do right now. >> okay. And. Mr. Mr. winship, I want to ask you, isn't it true that in 2018, eight years ago, D.C. water requested fast track permits to repair widespread corrosion and detached rebar at the site of the of the rupture. >> we've been working with on this initiative for a while. >> yeah, eight years would do dispute that.
▶ 1:16:02>> the specifics of the pre break are under litigation. >> okay. And in fact, D.C. water warned the corrosion could, quote, result in a catastrophic failure leading to the release of raw sewage into soil, groundwater and waterways. Quote, is that right? Do you know if they said that? >> I'm not familiar with that quote. >> okay. Isn't it true that the permits were delayed due to environmental assessments?
▶ 1:16:32>> again, I that part is pre break is under litigation and I'm not. >> okay. At the time of the pipe rupture those ea still had not been completed. Is that right. >> I defer to my prior answer. >> well I, I know it's under litigation, but you can you can I can tell you at the time of pipe rupture, there were still environmental assessments that were not completed. I know there's litigation.
▶ 1:16:59I'm not asking you to talk about any sensitive information, but and and I'm a lawyer, but that's the fact. And, Mr. chairman, I would like to um I would like to unanimous consent to place in the record an article from the washington post dated april 2nd, 2026, which is entitled catastrophic sewage spill, followed years of delay on repairs, post review. >> findings so ordered. >> thank you.
▶ 1:17:24So let me just say, um, eight years is too long to wait for an environmental assessment. And I say this in a nonpartisan way because over those eight years, we had democratic and republican administrations. And one thing, Mr. chairman, we need to do is we need to figure out how to speed up environmental assessments so that we can make sure we don't have these kinds of ruptures that are endangering public health. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 1:17:55>> gentlelady yields. The chair now recognizes Mr. palmer for his five minutes of questioning. >> for the benefit of the committee. Um, the epa expended $6.2 billion for water and wastewater systems in 2025. Of the 50 plus billion that was in the infrastructure investment act, uh, which brought the total expended up to 31, a little over I think.
▶ 1:18:23Um, miss kramer para, were any of you made aware of the risk potential collapse on the potomac interceptor line prior to the collapse? No. >> no, no. >> so no one talked to you about the that there were potential breaches, uh, that the line had been degraded and that repairs were needed because there was a potential breach.
▶ 1:18:51So you all you all answer no. When did you learn that there was a problem? Was it before or after the breakdown of the line? Miss kramer. >> epa was notified on the evening of january 19th. >> so after after the breach. >> correct, colonel. >> the army corps of engineers via the washington aqueduct was notified on the evening of january 19th by wss. >> Mr. weiskopf.
▶ 1:19:23>> the national park service was advised on the evening of the 19th. To the us park police. >> should you have been informed that there was a potential breach that that that the line was so degraded that there was potential for a breach in the line? Miss kramer. >> I believe that there was a reconstruction plan that had previously been. >> I'm asking you, uh, because you had knowledge of a construction plan that would indicate that you knew there was a potential for a problem.
▶ 1:19:53You said that you didn't know that. So what I'm asking now is because you didn't. You testified you didn't know. Should you have been informed prior to this? >> me personally, probably, yes, colonel.
▶ 1:20:14>> I believe as part of the washington aqueduct, working as part of the water community and working with members of the wholesale customer board, I believe there is a standing understand. There is an understanding that if anything was threatening the water supply, that that. >> was should have been informed. Yes, sir. Mr. weiskopf, this is particularly important with you. Um, you testified that you were not informed.
▶ 1:20:38You were not made aware of potential problems or the potential, uh, breach of the line, should you have been informed prior to the, to, to that happening? >> as I mentioned in my testimony, we've been working on a lot of initiatives with dc water over the last several years. I, I would have to take questions. >> did they tell you that that, that the line was so degraded that, that there was a the potential for a breach.
▶ 1:21:09>> not a potential for breach. We're working on rehabilitation permits. >> okay. I think this is is the famous movie line of failure to communicate because this could have been avoided had everyone been on this panel, been informed and had the opportunity to take some action, either the funding, if funding was necessary. I don't know that funding was needed for this, but action was certainly needed.
▶ 1:21:38Uh, in coordination with, with relevant parties. Uh, but it didn't happen. Uh. Um, administrator kramer, what actions has the epa taken, uh, to respond to the release of sewage from the potomac interceptor, particularly in the, in the river? >> uh, epa itself did a number of actions pursuant to the emergency declaration, epa provided technical assistance on site.
▶ 1:22:07Epa conducted contaminated soil removal. Epa also conducted water quality sampling as well as soil sampling. >> but we still have some problems. Do you have a potential timeline for getting this cleaned up? >> so, uh, the remediation of all areas except for the cno canal itself, which still has some, I believe still has a limited amount of remaining contaminated soil in it. Um, the remainder of the area that was impacted has been fully remediated and federal assets have been fully demobilized.
▶ 1:22:38>> what's your level of satisfaction with the response from state and local partners? Be candid. >> um, I previous to coming and I'm cognizant of your time, but previous to coming to epa, I was the deputy secretary at florida's department of environmental protection. We had a break in a main.
▶ 1:22:58Um, and as deputy secretary, I had deployed my assistant deputy secretary to be on site at the, the break location, uh, almost every day until the bypass was installed and there was no longer raw sewage that was leaking. I felt in my capacity in that position that that was the appropriate amount of tension and detail that needed, was needed in that situation.
▶ 1:23:22I found it very interesting that maryland, given that they have jurisdiction over the clean water act, section 402, specifically, they have primacy. So, uh, any unpermitted discharges into waters of the united states, such as what happened here? Um, I found it interesting that, uh, at least what I was aware of, it was not that level of attention. >> thank you for your responses, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york, Mr.
▶ 1:23:53Tonko, for his five minutes of questioning. Thank you, Mr. chair. Uh, during emergencies, it is critical that the federal government provide accurate and timely information to the public. Unfortunately, this administration has a history of doing the opposite, including after the collapse of a segment of the potomac interceptor. Less than one month after the collapse, president trump took to social media to hurl insults and baseless accusations that his political opponents at the time, D.C.
▶ 1:24:18Water, and its federal partners, were still in the early stages of their response. Mr. chair, I request unanimous consent to enter into the record these february 16th and february 17th of 2026. Truth social posts from president trump. >> so ordered. >> I appreciate that I would like to go through some of what the president thought was important and appropriate to say at this time, and see if your understanding of the facts lines up with his. Mr.
▶ 1:24:42Kramer, you were assigned as epa senior responsible officer for the potomac interceptor collapse a few days after the president's tirade. In his february 17th post, president trump said that, and I quote, this is a radical left caused environmental hazard. Is that epa's position that the radical left caused the 60 year old pipe to collapse?
▶ 1:25:05>> I've spoken a lot about asset management, but I do think what I was just speaking about with respect to maryland and the lack of high level oversight that I was aware of, um, I, I do think that there was a, there was a lapse there of, of awareness and presence by the state of maryland. >> but to blame the radical left for the corrosion or calcification of the collapse.
▶ 1:25:34>> one of the things that we're doing in the office of water right now, and I've spoken a little bit about it, but I will take just a second to get more into it. I've spoken a lot about making sure that the money is getting where it needs to be, out to the communities. Um, one of the other things that I learned coming into this office was that, uh, technical assistance, uh, in, in the prior administration dollars were awarded, uh, and scores were given out for technical assistance providers with an extra set of points given to folks that came in that had never had experience in the process.
▶ 1:26:04And so, um, I think there was a lapse of judgment in the prior administration as well in terms of ensuring that the right people were getting the folks to provide training and technical assistance to these systems that is necessary, uh, to, to. >> conducting my oversight. Yeah, I think it's somewhat of a stretch. Did the president consult with epa or anyone else involved in responding to the potomac interceptor collapse before he started pointing the finger at his political opponents without evidence? >> I'm not aware of conversations that occurred.
▶ 1:26:34>> okay. Thank you. Adam. March 18th press conference. You stated that, and I quote, this has been a coordinated response from the beginning. So could you elaborate on epa's involvement beginning with the time of the collapse? >> absolutely. Uh, so initially, uh, epa received a notification on january 19th that the collapse had occurred. Uh, inspectors and staff from our region three office were on site.
▶ 1:26:57Uh, the next day, january 20th, um, after, uh, and provided kind of the general oversight that epa provides under, even though maryland has primacy over these unpermitted discharges within their jurisdiction to waters of the united states, epa maintains an oversight role. So we were providing, uh, kind of that more traditional oversight after, uh, mayor bowser requested the emergency declaration. And that was granted by the authorized by the president. And I was, uh, designated as senior response officer.
▶ 1:27:26And we started using what is kind of the typical, what I would say is kind of the typical process where fema and colonel parris spoke to it earlier. Fema provides mission assignments. Um, and then, you know, that's how we kind of fulfill and obligate out which, which agencies are doing what, um, scope of work, mission assignment, potential costs, approval. >> process, reclaiming my time because we have very little here. At the same press conference, you stated that I quote, public communication has been critical to transparency and restoring public confidence.
▶ 1:27:56Did the president's post on truth social provide any benefit to the cleanup efforts or restoring public confidence? >> it certainly brought, uh, brought attention to the issue and made clear that the federal government was going to be stepping up to the plate. >> that statement ensured that the federal government would be involved. I thought it was condemnation. Really? How did it show confidence and restore public, uh, support.
▶ 1:28:22>> the the truth social post indicates that it had gotten the attention of the highest levels of government in this country, and there were going to be federal actions that would be, uh, approved. The the emergency declaration requested by mayor bowser would be authorized. >> sorry, my my time. Mr. westhoff, the president called this a sewer line breach in maryland and blamed one of the political rivals, the governor of maryland. But the breach actually occurred on federal land under the control of the national park service. Is that not correct? >> yeah.
▶ 1:28:51The the potomac interceptor is located on national park service land. >> yeah. Well, hurling insults and accusations during an emergency simply don't help anyone or actually fix the problem. It's shameful, I think, that the president repeatedly used emergencies and crises as opportunities to try to score political points, rather than help the people and fulfill the obligations of his office. And with that, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from tennessee, doctor harshbarger, for her five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, Mr.
▶ 1:29:19Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Um, Mr. weiskopf, uh, for any type of infrastructure that traverses mps property, what types of permits are needed to access or interact with this infrastructure and what does the process look like? >> okay. >> the well, some utilities preexist park land, as I mentioned in my testimony, which is the case with the potomac interceptor. >> mhm.
▶ 1:29:49>> um, in general, the, uh, the two types of permits that a utility would have would either be a right of way permit and a special use permit. The right of way permit that is issued generally governs the, um, the footprint of the utility, the size and depth and the area that it takes up on federal land and defines that and permits it for a period of ten years. Okay. Special use permit is issued for construction activities.
▶ 1:30:19Um, and actions that will disturb park resources. Uh, park visitors say traffic disturb the soil, any type of construction activity. >> well, does the process differ depending on what type of infrastructure project it is? Or um, or is this the process most of the time?
▶ 1:30:41>> well the, a general construction permit that's going to involve substantial disturbance to the park would may take 6 to 12 months, but we have, uh, shortened timelines if we have an urgent, high priority urgent matter or an emergency situation. >> it's a permitting process different from an applicant that's already participated in the process before and is submitting a permit for the same site or location.
▶ 1:31:11>> it would be the same process, which with each new proposal or rescoped project. Okay. >> all right. Um, does mps have an internal, uh, expedited or emergency nepa procedure for critical infrastructure on park service land? Like a, an internal expedited or emergency nepa procedure? >> yes.
▶ 1:31:37We in the case of the response, that's that's how we're doing the nepa after the fact. >> so was this expedited or emergency process ever considered with respect to the portion of pipe that collapsed? And if it was, why? And if not, why not? >> it was for the for the collapse. Okay. Yeah. We, uh, we, we verbally authorized their initial remedial actions while we worked on the permit and compliance after the fact that the emergency situation.
▶ 1:32:08>> yeah. Permitting always gets in the way, doesn't it? Um, assistant administrator kramer, how did the issuance of an emergency declaration allow for increased access to resources in a more expedited cleanup process? >> uh, on the resources front, it allowed for, uh, for additional deployment under fema's kind of standard normal process. Again, back to the mission assignments and scope of work and funding and the split of 75% versus 25% cost share.
▶ 1:32:37Um, in terms of, uh, what it allowed us to do on site, it allowed us to, uh, undertake remediation actions concurrently with the emergency repair that was happening with the collapse. Had there not been the access to federal resources, both dollars. And, uh, and, uh, people, um, uh, the, the cleanup was projected to go sequentially as opposed to concurrently. And so we were able to move much more quickly. >> okay. Very good. Well, Mr.
▶ 1:33:08Chairman, I yield back on that. >> gentlelady yields. The chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from new york, miss ocasio-cortez, for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you so much, Mr. chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Um, assistant administrator kramer, you are in charge of the environmental protection agency's office of water, correct? >> correct.
▶ 1:33:31>> um, and in your written testimony, you communicated a value that I think we all appreciate, which is that a top priority for epa is ensuring continued drinking water safety. Right? Correct. And this is a bedrock foundational value of the epa. And it's one of the big reasons why it exists. Um, I, you know, I, I, and I also appreciate your commitment to clean water specifically.
▶ 1:33:59In fact, you said it very well on a maha action call just last month. That quote, when I turned the tap on and when every american turns the tap on, there should be confidence in what's in your drinking water. And I think that's a value that we all share.
▶ 1:34:15Um, I wanted to ask you, uh, while I have you here, if you've been receiving complaints or if you are aware of folks reaching out about data center construction, impact on drinking water quality. >> I am aware. >> you're aware. And what are some of the things that you're seeing and hearing?
▶ 1:34:38>> so one of, I think the biggest concerns, uh, is related to water availability, which is why we recently relaunched the water reuse action plan 2.0 to focus on ensuring that, um, whether it's, it's data centers. >> or anything about water quality, though. >> um, I'm not aware of that. >> okay. Are there any complaints? I mean, are you observing any negative impacts on, uh, data center construction on water quality for americans?
▶ 1:35:09>> I don't think anything like that's been raised to my attention. >> okay. Um, I would like to do so a few weeks ago, uh, while congress was in recess, I visited morgan county, georgia, where meta is building a massive data center campus. They are clear cutting forests and began having construction, including explosive blasting. And families in the area are starting to see not only their water pressure decrease.
▶ 1:35:37To your point about water availability, um, but their appliances are all have all stopped working because it is decimating their water quality. They now rely on bottled water to drink and prepare meals, and nearby residents water bills are expected to increase by 33%. In fact. Um, I have a jar right here. This is the current drinking water in morgan county, georgia.
▶ 1:36:06Uh, right after a data center was constructed, the metadata center was constructed. The only difference between the clean water and this was that data center. I have another one as well. So this wasn't just one. Well, this wasn't just one family's, um, situation. This is what the drinking water now looks like next to that data center.
▶ 1:36:34And I think both of us can agree that neither one of these things are drinkable. These families now have to ship in a rural area, have to ship water to their house in order to cook and, and bathe themselves. Um, now I'm curious if the epa plans any investigations on how data centers are affecting water quality and availability. I understand what you said about the rule, but are there going to be any open investigations on this issue?
▶ 1:37:03>> so as soon as I get back to the office, I will I will be looking into exactly what you've just talked about because anywhere, um, whether it is whether whatever type of construction it is, it is a priority to ensure that water quality standards established by epa, um, are being met. And so we'll be looking into that. Uh, certainly. >> thank you. I, I sincerely appreciate that. Um, because I think this is of utmost importance and we're seeing this happening across the country.
▶ 1:37:28I'd also like to ask about the administration's push to build more data centers by fast tracking construction. Um, because the administration's been issuing executive orders to fast track data center construction. When we know that water quality is encountering major issues. Um, are there any mandates for data centers to do water quality testing prior to construction?
▶ 1:38:01>> of, of like coming from a public water supply, drinking water supply, sampling wells? >> yeah. >> I'm not aware of anything like that. However, it doesn't mean I'm just not aware of it might. Yes, but I'm not. >> of course. Um, you know, I think it's important that, uh, you know, you as an agency official, we have to make sure we're doing these investigations and us on a congressional level.
▶ 1:38:22I'd like to note that I think it's of utmost importance that we also launch, uh, congressional investigations into this matter as well, so that we can partner with the epa and ensure that the drinking water for this country continues to be safe and accessible for the american people. So thank you, administrator. Thank >> gentleman yields back. And I now recognize his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you ma'am. Um, thank you all for being here today.
▶ 1:38:51So, um I'm trying to get caught up on this. What has happened on january the 19th was the failure date. Is that correct? >> correct. >> okay. How long have you all been engaged? We'll start with you, miss kramer. >> so epa was on site. Epa received the notification phone call the evening of january 19th. >> colonel.
▶ 1:39:17>> the washington aqueduct of the baltimore district received the call on the evening of the 19th and responded within the hour. >> same for you all, Mr. winscott. National park service has been engaged since the 19th as well. Okay, so last night there was a town hall meeting last night at 7 p.m. Did any of you all get to attend that? >> no, no. >> so it's it was called and I'm just I'm trying to come up to speed on this. So please don't take exception what I'm asking.
▶ 1:39:47This is dc waters life off their website. So I go back to you, Mr. weiskopf. As you know, the potomac interceptor crosses multiple jurisdictions throughout maryland, virginia and the district of columbia with the maintenance and operational authority vested in dc water. However, the location of the collapse, as you're probably painfully aware of, happened on national park service property. With this in mind, what was your relation working relationship with dc water before the fact and now.
▶ 1:40:21We have an ongoing. >> uh. >> continuing working relationship with dc water both before and continuing now with the current projects and the current remediation for the. >> same, same question to you, colonel, that will come over to her. >> representative. Dc water is a member of our wholesale customer board. So there are three one of three downstream recipients of the water that's produced from the washington aqueduct.
▶ 1:40:44And as a result of that, they weigh in on decisions on investment decisions at the washington aqueduct and are a contributor to the funding of the operations and the capital improvements at the washington aqueduct. >> okay, ma'am. Miss kramer. >> uh, so when it comes to dc waters, blue plains, uh, facility, epa is the npdes permitting authority under the clean water act.
▶ 1:41:08>> are you finding that as you're trying to do, repair routine sections of the pipe in your particular jurisdiction, are you finding that a problem to have that kind of job where you're are you reaching across the aisle, so to speak? Do you just stick in your district, sticking and making routine pipe repairs to who, who handles that job and decides who does what? Okay, we'll go with you, colonel.
▶ 1:41:40>> representative for the for the washington aqueduct. Our relationship with the dc with dc water is limited to the infrastructure of the aqueduct. It doesn't include this sanitary pipeline that's, um, considered to be the potomac interceptor. Um, so for us, that would be between dc water and the washington suburban sanitary commission. >> okay. Um is it win scoffs that you say that. Windshield windshield. That was my next guess sir. >> uh the national park service is the landowner for about 23 miles of where the potomac interceptor lies.
▶ 1:42:09Um, after it crosses the river from virginia. So we have the responsibilities of the land owner for permitting and protecting the national park's resources. >> okay. Thank you. And I'm gonna go back to you, administrator kramer, uh, thanks for your efforts in coordinating a smooth and dynamic environmental response to that collapse. In your experience, would you say that that particular potomac industry sectors collapse and the subsequent contamination of the potomac river?
▶ 1:42:39Uh, would you say that constitutes an environmental disaster? >> yes. >> what's to be done about that? >> I think that we took all remediation actions, uh, for the immediate collapse. Um, I think that forward looking, not just with dc water, but dealing with water infrastructure across this country, there needs to be an increased focus on physical infrastructure management, uh, water systems right now, uh, across this country are facing challenges with, with aging infrastructure.
▶ 1:43:09And so, um, under president trump's leadership, epa is stepping up to the plate in the office of water. We are undertaking actions through our technical assistance programs, uh, to engage with communities and water systems, specifically to start thinking about how they approach asset management, looking forward, ensuring that vulnerabilities that exist are identified and dealt with on a timely basis to ensure that collapses like these don't actually occur. >> had you ever seen a bottle like, uh, representative ocasio-cortez showed you? >> I have, yes.
▶ 1:43:40>> you have seen that. Yes. From that particular facility. >> no, not from that particular facility, from, um, from a different, uh, from my days in, in the state of wisconsin, working for the department of natural resources. I have seen water that looks like that. >> so you were a cheesehead. >> I still am a cheesehead. >> okay, just checking. Colonel, I'm going to come to you real close if I can, real quick. If I can, I thank you and your team for limiting the impacts of that collapse and aiding in the remediation. In your testimony, you highlighted U.S.
▶ 1:44:11Army corps as a response to the emergency declaration in the wake. I want you to in writing because my time's up. Give me an explanation of how the challenges of rapidly constructing a diversion system during the height of winter. If you would respond in writing, Mr. chair, I yield back. >> gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from georgia, Mr. allen, for his five minutes of question. >> uh, colonel, I'll let you answer that question. >> representative allen.
▶ 1:44:39Representative weber, um, there was obviously extreme challenges for us in that diversion system installation. Uh, this was happening at the end of the winter. So you have to imagine that up to that point, everything had been frozen. Uh, on that sunday evening, we were presidential declaration was on the 20th, which was a friday. By sunday night, rain was coming in and rain was the threat, right? That was the threat of inundating the pumping system that was used for the bypass.
▶ 1:45:05So we really had probably about 24 hours to one, identify the scope, identify the materials, and then give our contractor direction to get the system installed. We had to prioritize the action. We had a 12 point system. We prioritized four components of that system that allowed us to get at least those portions of the diversion system in place by the evening of the 22nd. >> wow. Well, thank you, sir.
▶ 1:45:31And, um, again, uh, to go back, I want to thank doctor joyce for holding this important hearing, uh, on this, uh, potomac interceptor collapse. And I'll thank the witnesses for being here today. Uh, assistant administrator kramer, based on epa's observation of the collapse site and the facts that have been shared with it to date, what was the epa's initial assessment as to what may have caused or contributed to this collapse of the potomac
▶ 1:46:01Interceptor? >> unfortunately, due to the ongoing litigation, I am unable to answer that question. >> okay. And so you probably can't answer what you've learned to date, uh, to, uh, since this initial assessment. >> that's correct sir. Okay. Apologies. >> all right. Okay. Um, can you answer this by your estimate, how long will it take to fully rehabilitate the area impacted by this incident?
▶ 1:46:30>> the so from the collapse itself? Yes. I feel confident that with the exception of the minimal soil contaminated soil removal that is still ongoing by dc water in the cno canal, there's a there's an amount of contaminated soil removal that's still ongoing. The remaining area of impact from the overflow has been successfully remediated at this time. >> okay. All right. Good. Thank you. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:46:52Witkoff, uh, uh, what is the chesapeake and ohio canal, also known as the cno canal? And how has it been utilized following this incident? >> can you repeat? Repeat the last part? >> yes, sir. Um, what is the chesapeake and ohio canal, also known as the cno canal. And how has it been utilized following the incident? >> thank you for repeating it.
▶ 1:47:24The cno canal park, uh, the main trail, which is referred to as the towpath, parallels the canal for 184 miles that remained open during the, uh, during this remediation and the emergency response, the we, we had to close the area around the canal prism, the channel that held the wastewater for the bypass, uh, for safety. That area was fenced out. And then the other remediation zones that have been spoken of on the panel were closed.
▶ 1:47:53Um, just for the cleaning of the soil and, and debris. >> okay. >> uh, what type of remediation will be needed to restore the cno, cno canal after this incident. >> that D.C.
▶ 1:48:07Water and their contractors are taking on that work now to remediate the the channel, which has been removal of the contaminated sediment, sewage, contaminated sediment and vegetation, and any of the clay liner that had been impacted, which they'll have to be restoring. And they are working on that. As well as cleaning the historic stone locks. There are four of them. >> uh, another issue that's, uh, that's happened, um, dealing with water pressure.
▶ 1:48:35Uh, there are certain times of day that you cannot take a shower in the dc district, uh, because there's not enough water pressure to pull up the thing to hold. So you shower will produce water. Uh, I probably caught you off guard with that, but, uh, are you aware of that problem, any of you? And what can be done about it? >> I am unaware of that problem.
▶ 1:49:04Uh, but we'll look into it as soon as we leave this hearing today. >> okay, great. Thank you so much, Mr. chairman, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields. Seeing that there are no further members wishing to ask questions, I would like to thank our witnesses again for being here today. We'll take a quick five minute recess to allow the witness table to be set for the second panel.
▶ 1:55:13The committee will come back to order. We want to thank our witnesses for being here today and taking time to testify before the subcommittee. You will have the opportunity to give an opening statement, followed by a round of questions from members. Our witnesses today are david gaddis, chief executive officer and general manager, dc water. Tom neltner, national director of unleaded kids. We appreciate you both being here, and I look forward to hearing from you.
▶ 1:55:40You are aware that the committee is holding an oversight hearing, and when doing so, has the practice of taking the testimony under oath. Do you have any objections to testifying under oath? Seeing no objection, we'll proceed. The chair advises you that you're entitled to be advised by counsel pursuant to house rules. Do you desire to be advised by counsel during your testimony today? Seeing none, please rise. Please raise your right hand.
▶ 1:56:08Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? Seeing the witnesses answered in the affirmative, you are now sworn in under oath, subject to the penalty set forth in title 18, section 1001 of the united states code. With that I will now recognize Mr. david gaddis for five minutes to give an opening statement. >> Mr. chairman and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today.
▶ 1:56:37I am david gaddis, chief executive officer and general manager of dc water, and I appreciate the opportunity to discuss the january 19th collapse of the potomac interceptor and the response that followed. The potomac interceptor collapse was a serious and deeply significant event for our region, our environment, and the communities that we serve.
▶ 1:57:02While this incident does not define dc water's decades long record of environmental stewardship and infrastructure investment, it does demand accountability, reflection and also continued action responsibilities we fully embrace.
▶ 1:57:18From the outset, our commitment has been not only to respond aggressively, but also to communicate transparently, work collaboratively, and learn from this event as we continue strengthening our systems for the future, we understand the public's concern, the frustration and the difficult questions many have asked, including whether this event could have been prevented. Those are critical questions.
▶ 1:57:47And as a and as a leader of this organization, I believe it is my responsibility to ensure we answer them candidly, transparently and with humility. At its core, this incident is about aging infrastructure in america. The 54 mile potomac interceptor was constructed by the federal government in 19. In the 1960s, before the. Many.
▶ 1:58:11Before many of today's construction standards existed, and long before modern inspection technologies were available. Like many utilities across the country, dc water is responsible for maintaining infrastructure built generations ago that remains essential to public health and environmental protection. That reality does not lessen our responsibility. It actually heightens that responsibility.
▶ 1:58:38On january 19th, dc water discovered a significant failure in the interceptor near the potomac river under extremely challenging winter conditions, our teams immediately mobilized to contain the release of and protect the public health and the environment.
▶ 1:58:53Working alongside the epa and nps, the army corps of engineers, fema and numerous state, district and local partners, dc water successfully implemented an emergency bypass system on january 24th that prevented nearly 2 billion additional gallons from entering the river. As engineers gained access to the damaged pipe, we encountered large boulders and debris weighing approximately 18 tons.
▶ 1:59:22That is roughly equivalent to ten full passenger vehicles located in the in a in, in adjacent, and also in impacted the sections of this pipe. These materials obstructed flow within the interceptor and likely contributed to the structural stress on the pipeline over many decades.
▶ 1:59:42I want to personally thank our government partners for the extraordinary, extraordinary, uh, coordination and collaboration throughout this response, particularly epa assistant administrator jessica kramer for her leadership during this incident. I also want to directly address the question of whether dc water was aware of the concerns regarding this section of the pipe prior to the collapse.
▶ 2:00:08The answer is yes, and that is precisely why this section of the interceptor has already been identified, had already been identified for rehabilitation. It had been part of our long range capital improvement planning process for several years, and construction permitting. Discussions were well underway before the collapse occurred.
▶ 2:00:32Since the collapse, extensive water and also sediment testing conducted by dc water and numerous partner agencies and stakeholders has verified that river water quality returned to normal many weeks ago.
▶ 2:00:45Today, dc water is accelerating inspection, monitoring and also rehabilitation efforts along the interceptor going beyond standard standard industry practices, we are prioritizing vulnerable sections of the pipe more aggressively and proactively than ever before. Dc water remains committed to addressing this incident responsibly and continuing the long term.
▶ 2:01:15The long term work required to strengthen the resilience of the systems our communities depend on every day. This hearing is an important part of that accountability, and we welcome it. Our focus remains where it has been since january 19th, protecting public health and the environment, restoring the impacted area, assessing what occurred and ensuring we apply every lesson learned from this event.
▶ 2:01:41Thank you again for the opportunity to testify, and I look forward to answering your questions today. >> thank you, Mr. nellie pou. You're now recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is tom neltner. I'm the national director of unleaded kids, which is a nonprofit dedicated to reducing children's exposure to lead from all sources. I am a chemical engineer and an attorney. I've worked for dow corning and eli lilly making drugs, pesticides, food additives, industrial chemicals.
▶ 2:02:13I was also an assistant commissioner at the indiana department of environmental management focused on pollution prevention, recycling and small business compliance assistance. For the past 25 years, my focus has been on children's health and that included in the in the ots working on trying to reduce sewer overflows back in indiana to protect those children. It's a privilege to talk to you today to examine the conditions that led to the potomac interceptor collapse.
▶ 2:02:38I regularly enjoy the river for recreation, and I appreciate your efforts to get it cleaned up and your oversight. The potomac interceptor collapse that released 240 million gallons of raw sewage was an extraordinary event, but it was not an isolated incident.
▶ 2:02:53Epa estimates that these type of incidents, euphemistically called sanitary sewer overflows, occur 23,000 to 75,000 times each year, resulting in releases of 3 billion to 10 billion gallons of untreated sewage. The vast majority of those are smaller than 100,000 gallons.
▶ 2:03:15But for the small creek where the kids are out looking for tadpoles or for the swimming hole where the families are playing like I used to, the riverside trail where you're taking a stroll, the backyards where the pets roam, or the lake which the community relies on for drinking water in those places. When these overflows occur, the raw sewage can be overwhelming. Everything that's flushed down the toilet shows up on the trees, on the floats, on the water, or shows up on the grass.
▶ 2:03:46It is overwhelming to those communities. These sewage overflows often result from aging infrastructure, similar to what happened in the potomac interceptor collapse. They also occur because these sewer systems were built 50s and 60s, and they're so old that they weren't designed for extreme weather events. And the resulting flooding, while effective, coordinated responses to minimize the impact and control the damage and clean up the damage from sewer overflows are essential.
▶ 2:04:15The priority should be on preventing the events, big and small, from happening to the greatest extent practical. That means strong regulatory oversight. The epa and states, as well as vigilance by the municipal sewage treatment systems. It also means investments in the infrastructure necessary to enable water systems to take actions to prevent overflows.
▶ 2:04:38Congress does that in three ways through wifia, the water infrastructure finance and innovation act, and for other systems, smaller systems and rural systems. You'll see it with the clean water srf, the state revolving loan fund, or the drinking water srf. Those investments help communities address aging infrastructure, meet regulatory requirements, and support economic growth.
▶ 2:05:02Based on epa's most recent clean water sheds need survey communities need $630 billion over the next 20 years, with 110 billion specifically required to repay repair. Aging sewers just like the potomac interceptor, the need is similarly huge for drinking water systems, where systems need 625 billion to ensure communities have safe tap water.
▶ 2:05:27Given the need, I was dismayed to see epa's fy 26 budget proposal last year asking congress to cut those funds by more than 86%. Thank goodness that congress enacted a budget that rejected those cuts. I had hoped that with this potomac interceptor collapse that would serve as a. As a compelling reminder to epa to restore those funding and not to ask for more cuts.
▶ 2:05:51Unfortunately, the agency's fy 27 budget proposal calls for the same cuts that congress rejected the year before. Worse, epa reported only spending only 26% of the wifia funds provided by congress in fy 25. That suggests that staff cutbacks are undermining program success.
▶ 2:06:13Congress needs to increase funding for these critical infrastructure investments and ensure epa has both the people and the resources necessary to enforce the clean water act. To make that happen, congress must provide close oversight to fix breakdowns that occur so the agency so epa can do its job. Thanks again for the opportunity to share ideas and concerns. Thank you. >> I thank you for your. >> testimony. >> and we will now move. >> to questioning. >> I will begin and recognize myself for five minutes.
▶ 2:06:44>> Mr. gaddis, you stated in your opening statement that you became aware that the. A the problem occurred january 19th, that when that breach occurred that you were aware, were you aware prior to that that this was a vulnerable section of the sewage pipe that could face problems? >> thank you very much for the question. Uh, what we were aware of was back in 2018 when we did apply for and work with m. P s.
▶ 2:07:12>> did you recognize the urgency of the vulnerability of this section of the sewage pipe? >> uh, we did not. What made it, what made it what it is today is because of the boulders that fell into the pipe. >> you just stated in your opening statement that those boulders have been there for a prolonged period of time. Were you aware of the dangerous potential of this area of the pipe? >> no, we were not, because the boulders were outside of the pipe. And when inspecting pipe with cctv, uh, and those, what. >> did those inspections show?
▶ 2:07:43Could you see, uh, rebar that was coming through the pipe? Could you see that there were problems within that pipe. >> that the rebar was upstream from where the break occurred? >> and so the pipe that you examined showed it was vulnerable or it was not vulnerable because you said that, yes. You were aware in your opening statement. I'm trying to think when that awareness occurred. >> that awareness occurred in 2018, uh, is when that awareness occurred. >> and was this a priority to repair this pipe? >> yes it was.
▶ 2:08:13>> and so what steps were taken, recognizing that this was a vulnerable portion of pipe. What had you done? Had had you gone through the permitting processes? Walk us through where you were at this point in time, please. >> uh, where we were, where we were at at this point in time was we did work with, with nps. Uh, we did submit our permits, uh, in order for us. >> and when were they submitted, please? >> they were submitted in 2018. >> in 2018.
▶ 2:08:37And so we're talking six years prior to this break. Is this an inordinate amount of time to wait to see that the permitting was in place to begin the repairs? >> uh, actually, congressman, it was eight years, uh, in advance. And, uh, we, we do not control the process. We have to go through the process. We do not. And so as a result of that, we did have.
▶ 2:09:03>> did you raise concerns that there were areas that you wanted to proceed to be able to repair necessary to protect the community? >> yes, sir. >> and who did you make those concerns aware to. >> to mps? >> and what was their response? >> uh, the response was that we had to go through the process, which we did go through the process with them. >> and you felt that eight years was satisfactory to be able to be delayed by that period of time. >> we do not feel that eight years is satisfactory. >> and did you voice that to them? >> we did, and we have. >> and what was their response.
▶ 2:09:34>> that we had to go through the process? >> are there other sections of pipe in the dc water that's been determined to be either equally bad or maybe even worse, that you've addressed so far, and are you waiting for a prolonged period of time for a response to begin the those reparations? >> so what we what we have done, uh, at dc water, uh, to address the rest of the pipe, we have surveyed the 54 miles of the pipe and with, uh, with, uh, cctv and lidar.
▶ 2:10:04And as a result of that, we're also using drones and we're also walking the system. Uh, one of the new things that we're >> doing to detect if there is a rock on top of the pipe is looking at drown. Ground penetrating radar. And so we have done that. But we have surveyed the entire 54. >> with that survey, have you changed. >> the scope. >> of the project that you had initially submitted to the national park? >> we have we have changed.
▶ 2:10:31We have changed our cip program and put other projects ahead of some of the others that we had submitted. But yes. >> and how many projects have you had to advance because of what you found with these surveys? Three and is this because of what occurred on january 19th. >> january like 19th, we had lessons learned. Uh, and so because of january 19th, uh, we feel that there are three projects that we do need to move forward on. >> and how large are these three projects that you've, uh, put to the top of the list?
▶ 2:11:02>> I do not recall. I'm sorry. >> and where are they located? >> uh, I don't, I don't have the. >> you find that. >> that I can, I can find that out and give that to you in our, in a written format. >> and in just the last minute that's remaining. What actions have you taken? You've talked about lessons learned and what actions will you continue to take to ensure that there are no additional failures? As what we witnessed in january? >> well, congressman, thank you very much for that question.
▶ 2:11:29Let me say first, that we we take serious what happens in the river. And we've we've proven that, uh, in the district of columbia with the anacostia river and also with the potomac river, with our deep tunnel project, the actions that we have continued to take and we will continue to take them is to look at the outside of the pipe versus just on the inside of the pipe.
▶ 2:11:48Uh, we feel that the boulders and the rocks that I talked about at the, in my opening statement did contribute to the dam that built up inside the pipe and did not allow the flow to continue to blue plains for that, uh, sewer, sewage water to be processed. >> how confident are you that another collapse like this will not occur?
▶ 2:12:15>> uh, you know, congressman, I think that's a that's sort of a hypothetical. And I. >> that's what I'm asking you hypothetical with the information, with the drones that you've utilized, with the information that you have in hand from your investigation. Uh, how can we tell the public that another imminent situation like january 19th won't be occurring soon? >> well, we're hopeful that that it that we do not have another break like this one. And that is why we're doing all the things that we're doing right now.
▶ 2:12:40Uh, but there, there are no guarantees when dealing with, uh, an aging infrastructure that's more than 60 years old. >> I thank you for your testimony. I yield now to the ranking member, miss clark, for her five minutes of questions. >> thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I thank our panelists for appearing before us today. Um, Mr.
▶ 2:12:59Gaddis, I'd like to better understand the involvement of the federal agencies and the response to the collapse, what federal agencies were involved in the response to the collapse, and when were they first involved? >> um, the federal agencies were all notified, uh, the day of the, the day of the collapse.
▶ 2:13:19Uh, we actually, uh, congresswoman, we actually for about two, two and a half weeks, we, uh, at dc water, uh, continued to, after building the bypass, uh, we built that bypass. Uh, there were no agencies working with us. Uh, approximately two, two and a half weeks later, uh, the agencies did come around and we're happy that we, that we were able to get the help that we, that we needed. >> understood.
▶ 2:13:46But you had to do the initial work, uh, solo, uh, over a two week period of time. >> that is correct. >> I'm thinking about future recovery efforts, what worked in this situation, and what advice would you give to other utilities facing a similar situation? >> I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I'm sorry. >> sure. I'm thinking about future recovery efforts, what worked in this situation, and what advice you would give to other utilities facing similar situations?
▶ 2:14:14You know, across the united states, we're talking about aging infrastructure. I happen to come from new york city, and so I'm always on the lookout. Um, but I'd like to hear from you. You know, what would you say works best here? >> well, this is a great question because I have, uh, since this break, I have been talking to many of my colleagues throughout the country, uh, in different settings.
▶ 2:14:37And one of the things that, that I do speak with them about is continuing the asset management, uh, continuing to use, uh, cctv and, and lidar, but also, uh, ground penetrating radar radar as well. And that is something that is not generally used when inspecting the pipe. The pipe is always looked at from the inside versus the outside.
▶ 2:14:59Uh, and the boulders that were, that were big boulders, uh, as I said earlier, uh, 18 tons, uh, were sitting on top of the pipe. And that did exacerbate the, uh, the, the, uh, blockage inside of the pipe and caused the manholes to overflow. So I would say that, uh, those are the things I think that, uh, are that my colleagues should be looking at throughout the country.
▶ 2:15:25>> let me ask you, you know, there have been a number of, um, sort of extreme weather events. Um, we've even had earthquakes that we've never had before, uh, or in recent times, let's put it that way. Do you think that there has to be new protocols put in place when we are experiencing these events? And do you take that into consideration in terms of your surveillance of the infrastructure? >> well, I think we should take those things into consideration.
▶ 2:15:55I think the other thing that we should take a look at is having redundancy. Uh, and that is something that you do not have on a, on a sewer, on a sewer, on a sewer pipe, water pipe. You can shut the water off. Right, uh, on the sewer. You cannot, you cannot shut it down. So as a result, uh, to have redundancy, uh, I think would be fantastic. It would be expensive, but it is something that should be looked at.
▶ 2:16:17Uh, and then also slip lining pipes in those areas where you can have redundancy as far as concrete pipe and then also slip lining it. And you'll have, you'll have, uh, two types of pipe inside of, of the pipe. And that would give you redundancy as well. So I think those are sort of things that we should be taking a look at in the future. >> very well. Um Mr. nelson, your experience cuts across a few of the issues we've discussed here today. Sewer overflows, pollute pollution remediation.
▶ 2:16:46How are communities impacted when sewer overflows occur and what health risks do they pose? >> they're impacted as they described, by everyday enjoyment of the rivers are lost and the creeks and streams, because literally there's toilet paper hanging from the trees. You just. And it stinks.
▶ 2:17:06But also the sewage contains pathogens in it, and it often contains industrial wastewater that may have chemicals in it that are discharged on the way to the treatment plant to be treated. But when they're released into the environment like that, they can cause a variety of health effects. It all depends on what's upstream, but the bottom line is we need to stop. We need to go do everything we can to prevent these sanitary sewer overflows. >> so our water systems around the country are already struggling to address sewer overflows.
▶ 2:17:34And yet president trump is proposing massive funding cuts to programs that help those systems, our water systems, able to conduct necessary repairs and improvements without the funding that president trump is trying to cut. >> the funding, both wifia and the state revolving funds are just essential to making this happen. Large utilities can often, because of their good credit rating, go out and get their loans.
▶ 2:17:58But for the smaller systems, the rural systems, they just don't have access to these funds, especially as interest rates go up. So we really do need those state revolving loan fund. We also need the wifi to be able to provide access to the resources so that the smaller the middle sized, even some of the larger cities can take advantage of it. >> very well, I yield back. >> Mr. chairman. >> the gentlelady yields. The chair recognizes the vice chair of the committee, Mr. balderson, for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:18:28Thank you both for being here, Mr. gaddis. I'll direct my questions to you, sir. Um, could you please describe the types of assessments that have been done to evaluate the structural integrity of the potomac interceptor? >> thank you very much for that question, congressman. We we at dc water have been using, uh, traditional, uh, assessments, which would which would be cctv, uh, getting inside the pipe and really trying to figure out if there's any degradation within the pipe.
▶ 2:18:57Also, we have used lidar to look at the areas where it is wet. And that helps us from that standpoint. Uh, we're also been using drones as well as, uh, one of the things that, that, uh, it may seem old school, but we walk that pipe. Uh, and so that whole 54 miles we have been walking that to see if there are any sinkholes, any things that, that gives us something that we would not be able to see inside of the pipe. So we have, we have, we have been doing that.
▶ 2:19:26And the new piece that we are doing today is the ground penetration. Uh, to take a look and see if there are any boulders. So we are starting that as well. >> okay. Thank you. Uh, and how often, um, are the assessments done and are they done by staff there? By whom? >> uh, we do have contractors and we do have staff that both work, uh, work on this. Uh, it also depends on what we, what we, if we see an area where we think and we do see degradation, we do keep an eye on that area.
▶ 2:19:54Uh, as we, as we do our inspections. >> okay. Thank you. Um, as this message methods, while they are those methods widely accepted, uh, industry standard for assessing, uh, wastewater infrastructure. So what you're doing is a pattern throughout the country. >> yes, sir. That is correct. >> thank you, Mr. gass. When the first time the portion of the potomac interceptor that collapsed was assessed and had results showing deteriorating conditions.
▶ 2:20:20When was the when was the first time the portion when did you first see indications of, uh, potential deteriorating >> my knowledge is with my knowledge for my knowledge would have been 218 uh, is when we is when, uh, I was, uh, when, when I knew about this or when we knew about this at dc water. Okay. And so that would have been 2017, 2018. >> thank you.
▶ 2:20:46Can you elaborate on the results of, of that assessment and who at dc water was aware of the condition of this section of the potomac interceptor? >> uh, that would that would have been our operations group. I don't know exactly who the individuals names, uh, that would have, that would have been able to assess that. >> thank you. Did dc water conduct additional assessments of the portion of the pipe? First question. And if so, when was the most recent assessment and what did it show? >> yes we did, we did assessments.
▶ 2:21:14Uh, we did four additional assessments of this pipe, uh, after 2018, uh, because of the condition that we, that we saw the pipe in. Uh, so we, we did continue to assess this area. >> thank you. Um, Mr. gaddis, are you satisfied with the current progress of remediation efforts following the potomac interceptor collapse? >> thank you for that question.
▶ 2:21:42I, I am I am satisfied with with what we've done thus far on the remediation. Uh, I think that the, uh, communities are, are very satisfied as well. So we're moving in the right direction. >> when was the most recent assessment done that you inspected the most recent assessment? When was it done? >> uh, we're assessing pipe every single day. >> every single. >> day, every, every single day on this 54 on the 54 mile, uh, pipeline, uh, or the potomac interceptor. >> okay.
▶ 2:22:12Uh, is there anything that could have been done differently to expedite, expedite the emergency repair or cleanup process or streamline operations? >> thank you very much for that question.
▶ 2:22:24We, we, uh, as we look back at this, uh, and lessons learned, I think that we, we, when we, the things that we were able to do, uh, regarding this, uh, this break, uh, were the right things, uh, the only thing that we wish that we could have done would have been have ground penetration, but we did not know that the boulders were there. No one would have known that the boulders were there.
▶ 2:22:46Uh, the clean, clean field should have been put in, and clean field would be boulders or not boulders, but rock that is no larger than three inches in diameter would have been would have been placed back on top of this pipe. Uh, but the boulders that were placed back on top of the pipe, uh, did cause a true problem. And the break was extraordinary, uh, versus other breaks that we've seen. >> okay, I'll try to get one last question here.
▶ 2:23:09Currently, are there any portions along the potomac interceptor that could negatively affect the drinking water of our community if it experienced a collapse or similar, similar incident? You have 10s, sir. Sorry to the best of your ability. >> well, you know, from from my standpoint and and what I've seen, uh, the potomac interceptor does go along the river as a result, a, a another break could cause an issue for the washington aqueduct because of the, their intakes that they
▶ 2:23:40Have along the river. Thank you. >> gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new york, Mr. tonko, for his five minutes of questions. Thank you, Mr. chair. Um, I'll reiterate a point that has been made by others today. Federal funding is critical to enabling water systems to improve their infrastructure, conduct preventative maintenance, and protect public health.
▶ 2:23:59And if those federal resources disappear, as is proposed by president trump's fiscal year 27 budget, we're likely to see more incidents like the potomac interceptor collapse around the country, including in communities that are less equipped to carry out a fast and effective emergency response. Earlier, we heard from, uh, from the witness, uh, Mr.
▶ 2:24:25Kramer, indicating that states need to expend their funds, uh, disperse those funds from the srf. But I think if we don't coterminous, um, address the funding that's required of srf, uh, we're not completing our work. So. But while the potomac interceptor response is behind us, I'd like to focus on a serious active threat to many americans public health. And that's the lead service lines. Um, let me, uh, begin with you, Mr. gaddis.
▶ 2:24:52Uh, dc has one of the nation's leading lead pipe replacement programs. Can you discuss dc water's efforts to proactively manage its infrastructure and get these pipes out of its system? >> yes, sir. Thank you very much for that question. Um, we at dc water, one of the decisions that we made, uh, a few years ago was that we wanted to be proactive. We did not want to wait, uh, for a consent decree to occur regarding lead service lines.
▶ 2:25:20As a result, we stood up a lead free dc, uh, in washington, dc, and it has been very, very successful. There are 42,000 lead service lines in the district of columbia, uh, today. And, uh, we, uh, we have, we are attacking this in two phases. Phase one, uh, we will have 29,000 of these lead service lines replaced by 2030.
▶ 2:25:46Uh, phase two, uh, we will have the other 13,000 replaced by 2037. Uh, we, we, uh, fortunately do have the funding for 2000 and for the first phase, but we are looking for funding for the second phase. Uh, so the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the dollars that you're talking about, they are needed by us in, in washington, dc for us to complete phase two of the lead free dc program.
▶ 2:26:14>> and has dc water received federal resources to support its replacement program. >> that we have? >> yes. You have. Okay. What about the east wing demolition and the debris being deposited? Uh, obviously that might include lead and some other, uh, materials and they're going to deposit that near the river. Is there a risk to that. >> if I am not aware of, of, of that, uh, that fact that you just that you just stated.
▶ 2:26:42So I can, I can research that and then get back to you in writing. That would. >> be appreciated. All 50 states in dc received dedicated lead line replacement money through the infrastructure investment and jobs act fiscal year 25 alone, each state received a minimum of 28.65 million. Mr. neltner, we know that dedicated lead replacement money is expiring, along with supplemental funding for the srf.
▶ 2:27:06While that funding was an important initial down payment, are there still lead lines in need of replacement across our country? >> yes, there are 4 million an estimated 4 million lead service lines that need to be replaced. The goal is to get the vast majority of them out by 2037. Those funds are not enough on their own. It's going to increase rates for people to pay for that, and that's going to increase the affordability challenge for as water rates increase.
▶ 2:27:33And as we talk about sewer, as we don't get those infrastructure investments. >> so those, uh, those dollars from the feds are critical to holding down the bills that people will be paying for for their own systems. >> they are absolutely critical that $15 billion for lead service line replacement has gone a long way to both finding the problem and making a difference. And we need states to spend the money, but we need more to make it happen.
▶ 2:27:59>> now, to the earlier point, if we don't continue the funding for srf for lead replacement, we're not being real about the entire situation. I don't want to downplay the seriousness of the potomac interceptor collapse, but it is a symptom of a larger issue. We have aging infrastructure across our country that needs to be maintained, modernized or replaced, and local governments and water systems simply cannot do it on their own, especially when there are big threats from lead and other dangerous contaminants like pfas that need to be addressed.
▶ 2:28:26We should be working to reauthorize the srf and other water programs at levels that will support critical infrastructure and avoid the next public health emergency, and look forward to the response about the debris deposit along the along the river, and any contamination that they may cause that might cause. So with that, Mr. chair, I thank you and yield back. The gentleman yields. The chair now recognizes the chairman of the full committee, Mr. guthrie, for his five minutes of questioning. >> thank you so thank you, Mr. gaddis.
▶ 2:28:55I'll ask you a couple of questions. One, I want to says D.C. water determined the cause of the collapse, and I know there was a boulder involved, but my understanding is there was a collapse. The boulder had been there for decades, so that didn't cause the collapse. There's a collapse. The boulder fell into the hole. And you can assign appreciate that the boulder caused more damage by that happening. But that wasn't really the cause of the collapse, is my understanding could have y'all determined the actual cause of the collapse. And if not, when do you think you'll be able to determine what that is?
▶ 2:29:26>> uh, congressman, thank you very much for the question. We have not determined the the cause of the collapse. Uh, this is, uh, this is aging infrastructure and it's more than 60 years old. So we, uh, we think that may be part of the cause. Uh, but without a doubt, the boulders did exacerbate this situation. >> the damage or the cause of the actual collapse, just the damage from the collapse. Right. Or do you. >> think it'd be the damage from.
▶ 2:29:53>> it's been sitting there for a while and then, you know, budget proposal that hadn't been enacted this year hasn't caused the problem over the last 60 years. I don't think so. So, so, um, so in 2018, you guys, folks said we need to do repairs here, I think. Right. And you applied for permits through the park service. Is that when that you applied in 2018 for your first. >> that is correct. >> so I quoted earlier, I know you're in the audience from the washington post article that states D.C. water repeatedly proposed changes to repair plans, which forced a new environmental assessments.
▶ 2:30:23So how many times did D.C. water change the design and scope of his repair? That kicked off a necessary being necessary to have another environmental study? >> um, my memory is, is it was two times that we, that we did, uh, add to, uh, the, the plan that we had put forth.
▶ 2:30:46>> so, um, I'm just trying to figure out, did any change make you have an environmental study or did, would the chain have to be such level of significance that it had to do that, that you had to have? Because it seems like it seems when we we've talked before that when we talked about this, is that it just seems the way it was described, it just the permitting process is what's held you from doing the repairs that you needed to do. And I was just wondering why it took so long from 2018 till, well, you didn't get one because it collapsed before you could repair it.
▶ 2:31:16Why it's taken so long to get here. >> um, thank you for the question, congressman. I, I don't know why it took so long. Uh, we we still don't have a permit today. Mhm. We still do not have a permit today. >> but so you but but you you apply for a permit? Yes. Then you go back and ask for changes because you want to do something different. And it requires a new environmental assessment. >> for example, the difference may have been that we said x number of trees and ended up being a different number of trees.
▶ 2:31:44Uh, that was one of the changes. >> yeah. Do an entire new environmental permit for. Yes. That's what we're trying to get. That's what I was trying to get with the superintendent. Understand? He can talk about a lot because it was litigation. I guess that was the the reason. But it was frustrating when you get a little further with him than that. So so when you conduct a repair work on the potomac interceptor, does dc water. Um, well, let me just get it. Do you have to do like maryland and virginia or is it just the national park service you have to get permits from.
▶ 2:32:15>> well, we we have to we have to get permits from the national park service. So we do not have any permits for the, uh, for the entire, uh, segment of, of that pipe. >> okay. But so my question, I guess the permits you were waiting on were park service only. You didn't. >> that is correct. >> you didn't have to deal with it wasn't maryland or virginia or any of this. >> no, sir. >> so so we'll get back. Okay. So we got to fix the permitting process. It absolutely appears that way.
▶ 2:32:44So what steps does dc water taking in the immediate term to mitigate the damage caused by this incident, and while also working to ensure that you have you have 50 more 54 miles of pipe. This pipes are two miles long, right? Yes. So what are you doing now to mitigate and what are you doing now to to we need emergency permits or some kind of action because you think this could happen again? >> yes, sir. Thank you very much for for that question.
▶ 2:33:07We are working and trying to get, uh, the permitting, uh, changed to where we can, we can file for permits and get into, uh, get into make repairs before an incident occurs. And that is the key is. >> what we. >> want is this is for us to identify, as we've done with the additional three areas that we have identified. Uh, and we would like for that permitting process to be to go faster than what it goes today.
▶ 2:33:35So we are working on that to make sure that we don't have to wait eight years, uh, to repair additional areas along the potomac. >> what we want to set up a process that reasonable people can say, let's get this done. It takes 2018. You started, I mean, you're not asking to take out the sherman sequoia tree that everybody goes to visit. And, and, and, and I'm as tree person as anyone.
▶ 2:33:58But when you're looking at, well, this tree versus that, and then end up with sewage in the potomac river, that the economic the environmental disaster is far bigger. What it work into the collapse point. So we, we just have to be better. And we have to figure out how we can help you and help the agencies get these permit correctly, I yield back. >> gentleman yields. The chair recognizes the gentleman from georgia, Mr. allen, for his five minutes of questions.
▶ 2:34:28>> uh, thank you, chair joyce, for holding this important discussion on the potomac interceptor collapse. And I want to thank our witnesses for being here and sharing your expertise today. Um, so, um, obviously we have an infrastructure problem. Um, we have a pipe that's 54 miles long that's been there for 60 years. Um, and all of a sudden we have a, an incident that was tragic.
▶ 2:34:57And so, uh, I guess my question is this, uh, you know, well, let me just say this from a permitting standpoint and I'll say this with, uh, epa here, we can't get any pipelines permitted in this country. I don't care whether it's sewage, gas, you name it. We can't even get you know, if I wanted to exit off my interstate, it takes eight years to get a permit.
▶ 2:35:24But by the time all the environmental studies are done, and then this stuff is just deteriorating in front of our very eyes as we sit here with, you know, we. So why is the question. But I think the bigger the bigger thing here to deal with is, in your opinion, does this pipe need to be replaced? >> thank you very much for the question, councilman. It is not.
▶ 2:35:55The whole 54 miles needs to be replaced. Uh, there are there are segments that we feel need to be repaired. And we've identified three of those segments that does need to that does need to be repaired. Uh, we do, we do agree with you that the, uh, that we could move a little bit or not, we, we hope that national parks can move a little bit faster than what they have in the past. Uh, regarding the permits, I think that's the key. But I think that we will continue to do what we've done thus far.
▶ 2:36:25And that is, uh, to perform proper asset management, uh, and bring to the attention of individuals that there is a replacement that is needed on different needed on different segments of the pipe, uh, to replace the entire 54 miles. Uh, would, would be a, would be herculean. Uh, and it would be the funding would be out, would be very, very expensive. And so, and that would rest on the backs of ratepayers.
▶ 2:36:51Uh, but we are, we are looking at other ways that we can fund these types of projects as well. >> are you getting outside expertise? Uh, do y'all do your engineering internally at dc water, or are you getting outside expertise from engineering and environmental companies on, uh, on how to fix this problem? >> it is a combination of both. So we do have a, a full fledged engineering, uh, part of our operation, but we are working with outside engineers as well. Some of the best that there are, uh, in the industry.
▶ 2:37:20Uh, and I think that was proven, uh, that we do work with the best and that our team is a very good team as well. Uh, as we were able to construct this bypass, uh, within a five day period. >> okay. So, uh, so first step is to, uh, well, have we got those areas that need to be replaced, identified? >> we do have them identified at this time. >> okay. Do we have a cost estimate on what it's going to take to, to, to do that? >> not, not at this point in time.
▶ 2:37:48We are mobilizing, uh, at this point in time, uh, on those, on those three areas. Uh, but I'm not sure that we have a cost estimate as of yet. >> well, we gotta strike while the iron's hot here. I agree, you know, we don't. I mean, we've had a major tragic incident in, uh, and like I said, the way this place works, you you got to make things happen. And, uh, because there's always some reason this delay, that delay, you name it, it just it's unconscionable, really. Uh, I come from the construction world.
▶ 2:38:18Uh, the other issue that we have there was a water water main that broke, uh, just a few weeks ago. And since then, uh, water pressure is an issue. Uh, in, uh, the district. And are you aware of that problem? I mean, we can't even take a shower. And so, uh, because we have inadequate water pressure. Are you aware of that problem? >> I am not aware of that problem, sir, but we do.
▶ 2:38:46If if we could, we will identify where that is at and we'll get back to you and let you know, uh, how we're going to solve the problem because, uh, you should the pressure is important to us. We know that's important to, uh, to the citizens as well in yourself. >> okay, I've got just a few seconds. So, so what we need to do is find out how much it's going to cost, and then we got to get the permit. >> yes, sir. >> and then fix it. Yes, sir. Okay.
▶ 2:39:15Have you any idea like how long it'll take to fix it once we get the permit? >> I don't I don't myself have any idea how long, but we will we will be we will be mobilizing and have that number for you for the cost of the pipe within the next 30 days. >> good. Thank you. And I'm out of time, so I yield back. Thank you sir. >> gentleman yields. The chair recognizes the gentlelady from tennessee, doctor harshberger, for her five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:39:43And thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Mr. gaddis, when an assessment is complete in the section of the potomac interceptors identified as requiring improvements, how does D.C. water ensure those get completed? >> I'm sorry, ma'am, can you repeat that. >> when you have identified improvements in in the interceptor, how does D.C. water ensure that those improvements get completed?
▶ 2:40:11>> well, one of the first things that that we do is we, we, we definitely put a plan together, uh, with our engineering. And also if we need to bring in any partners to help us, uh, construct whatever may be needed in order to make sure, uh, that we're able to, uh, satisfy, not only meet the requirement from a cost standpoint, because that's very, very important since we have ratepayers.
▶ 2:40:38Uh, and so as a result of that, uh, we, we then start the construction, we always try and come in on time and under budget. Uh, whenever we're constructing something. >> um, how long does it take on average for dc water to get to required approval in a contractor to begin work once an issue has been identified? >> it does not take us long from that standpoint because we have, uh, miss, uh, water service agreements with a number of contractors.
▶ 2:41:07And so they are, they are very aware. And so it cuts down on our procurement process where we've already qualified, uh, those contractors and we can put those contractors to work the, that, that same day. >> good. How many contractors are currently working on improvements on the potomac interceptor? Do you know? >> uh, I don't know the exact number, but there, there are a number of partners that we have out working on the potomac interceptor.
▶ 2:41:36>> well, at least you have a process to, to figure out who those contractors are going to be. Are you satisfied with the current progress of the remediation efforts following the collapse? >> yes. Uh, thank you very much for that question. We are satisfied, uh, with with the progress that we've been able to make. Uh, we, we are staying in close contact with the community as well, uh, and making sure that the, uh, that smell and those sort of things are being eliminated.
▶ 2:42:04Uh, we're also continuing to test the water in the river, which is very, very important. Yes it is. And so, uh, in doing that, we've seen the river, uh, really come back and, and rebound very, very well where the numbers are back to normal, uh, within the, within the water columns in the river today. >> is there anything that could have been done differently to, um, expedite the emergency repair or cleanup process or streamline any of those operations.
▶ 2:42:34>> as we, as we, and we will, we will do a, a full fledged investigation on our, on the way that we perform. And we do that all the time when we, when we take a look at projects that we, that we execute, uh, we have not done that as of yet. So we will do that. Uh, what I will say is that we had expected to have the bypass built after the, from the 19th, we expected it to take approximately seven days, uh, 7 to 8 days.
▶ 2:43:01And for us to get that done in 4 to 5 days, uh, was a great effort. Uh, that was that by our contractors and by the, the men and women at dc water. >> yeah. Um, well, what's dc water doing to monitor the remaining portions of potomac interceptor, uh, that are known to high risk to be high risk areas, basically. >> so what, what we are doing, uh, and is we are, we have taken a look at the entire 54 miles of pipe.
▶ 2:43:30And with the 54 miles of pipe, we've cctv that, uh, we've used, uh, leader, uh, from, from that standpoint, we're also using drones. We're walking the walking. >> do you do this on a regular basis? I guess, you know, I'm thinking of what, you know, utilities in my district do it preemptively, like tva or some of these guys or, you know, with pipelines, do you do that on a regular basis before something happens so you can find those issues?
▶ 2:44:00>> we do, uh, and, uh, that is, that is something that we do on a regular basis, especially when we identify a area, uh, that, uh, that, that, that may be prone to whatever it may be that we're seeing something, uh, we always make sure we keep an eye on it and we go back, uh, make sure that the degradation of pipe or whatever it might be, uh, is not advancing. Uh, and so there are this, this pipe is built in a way in which there are dips up and down and, and those sort of things.
▶ 2:44:29And so gases and those sort of things are causing some of the deterioration. So we're keeping an eye on all of those areas as well. Uh, but the three areas that we have identified, we will definitely be keeping an eye on that. But as I stated earlier, we will be mobilizing and executing repairs within the next 30 days. >> well, it's good to always do that after action report, so we'll know what to prepare for next time. Yes. Thank you sir. And with that, I yield back. >> the gentlelady yields. Votes have been called on the floor.
▶ 2:44:59So we will now recess for the floor votes and resume ten minutes after the last vote is called. The committee will now stand in recess.
▶ 3:35:35We will now resume our hearing on the corrosion collapse and cleanup examining the potomac interceptor collapse. We now recognize Mr. weber of texas for his five minutes of questioning. Thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you all both for being here. Mr. gaddis, I'm going to come to you first, please. The potomac interceptor collapse was a significant environmental disaster. I know I'm telling noah about the flood, right.
▶ 3:35:58Point being that it's estimated that 240 million gallons of raw sewage flowed, spilled into the potomac river. In your testimony, you highlighted that D.C. water became aware of that break. The afternoon of january the 19th, 2026. Do you remember that? Okay. Be sure to use your. Yes, sir. All good, all good. However, D.C. mayor muriel bowser did not declare an emergency until february the 18th, 2026.
▶ 3:36:28Uh, essentially a month later. Do you remember that? Yes, sir. Okay. Um, according to. Did you have any interaction with her in that regard with the mayor? Any interaction with the mayor when that happened? If I can. >> my memory and thank you for the question.
▶ 3:36:49From my memory, there was, uh, interaction not directly with the mayor, but with interaction with with her team, uh, but not necessarily regarding that, that, uh, that issue or. >> okay. So according to your estimation, how many gallons during that time frame of raw sewage flowed into the potomac river before the emergency was declared? How many gallons. >> before the emergency?
▶ 3:37:18>> how many gallons of raw sewage flowed into the potomac river before they declared emergency? >> um, approximately 243 million gallons. >> 243 million gallons in one month. >> well, that was over. That was in that was from the, uh, that was from the 19th until we were able to put the bypass in place. That's those are the numbers that I. >> know that. How many days was that, would you reckon. >> that was? About five days. >> five days. Okay. Yes.
▶ 3:37:48Considering dc water's knowledge of the poor state of the interceptor. What was your specific role in advertising the district of columbia government on declaring that same emergency? What was your role in that? >> I did not have a role in that, sir. >> not at all. >> not not that. Not not that I can remember, sir. >> okay. Did any of your staff have a role in it? >> uh, they may have, but not that I can remember. >> not that you remember. Yes. Okay. And I'm going to come stay with you, Mr. gaddis, for a minute.
▶ 3:38:17My district home in texas is home to a significant portion of our nation's energy production infrastructure. Have you been to texas? >> uh, thank you for the question. I actually not only have I been to texas, I attended southern methodist university in dallas, texas. >> okay. Well, then where did you get your education? No, I'm. I'm just teasing you. I'm just teasing you. My district produces consumer gasoline, natural gas, military grade fuel, as well as jet fuel in large quantities.
▶ 3:38:47Uh, most in the country in some instances, as a result of these highly technical and dangerous processes. I will add, I'm deeply aware of the state's steps required to prevent such environmental disasters has just happened. Uh, one major we're talking about, just having one major preventative measure is addressing aging infrastructure.
▶ 3:39:09We keep a close watch on that, considering the potomac interceptors age and criticality to the surrounding area, what measures, in your judgment, were taken to prevent that interceptors collapse? >> thank you very much for the for the question, congressman. You know, we we have, uh, D.C. water. We've supplied more than 4000 documents to the committee. So I'm sure that. >> 40,000 documents. >> yes, sir. Uh, to the committee.
▶ 3:39:36So I'm sure that, uh, a lot of that is in there that you're asking a question about, but there were a number of things that we have done at, at dc water, uh, from 2018 up until the day of the collapse. >> but you don't have in mind any of the preventive maintenance issues that come to your mind today. >> well, we, we, we, we, we did what we call those asset management was one of the things that we do.
▶ 3:40:00Uh, and we've documented that and we've taken, we've taken a look at, uh, from a, a leader standpoint, also cctv, uh, drones, uh, also walking the, the 54 miles and especially that segment of the pipe that we knew there were issues. Uh, the, and we did not see the rocks, uh, are actually the boulders that were above it because that's outside of the pipe.
▶ 3:40:25Uh, but we, we extensively looked inside of the pipe and that's why we were able to put it on our cip list and also alert mp, uh, national parks that this is an area that we wanted to do the repairs on. >> okay. We're con during that time frame. I'm running out of this for you to give me a quick answer later where contractors or federal agencies aware that delays in permitting approvals could result in that collapse. And if you don't mind, respond to my office in writing about that. I'll repeat it real quick.
▶ 3:40:56We're contractors or federal agencies aware that delays in permitting approvals could result in the collapse of this infrastructure, Mr. chairman. Thank you, I yield back. >> seeing that there are no further members wishing. Perfect timing. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from alabama, Mr. palmer, for his five minutes of questioning.
▶ 3:41:39>> thank you, Mr. chairman. Sorry for the delay. I know time is precious for everybody. Um, Mr. gaddis, um, is it true that, uh, D.C. water hired an external engineering party to investigate the collapse? >> I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? I didn't hear you. >> is it true that D.C. water hired an external engineering party to investigate the collapse? Did you hire an external, uh, reserve?
▶ 3:42:07Uh, can you understand what I'm asking? >> yeah, I think that I understand what you're asking. I was I was going to. I was trying to let you finish. I'm sorry. We we we have, we have. We have been working with, uh, external contractors and our contractors. >> so the answer is yes.
▶ 3:42:25Um, so what I would like to know is, um, there's some things in the timeline that, that I wonder about, um, so you had an external engineer do the inspections of the line. Is that correct? Who did the inspections of the lines to determine that the possibility of a breach.
▶ 3:42:56>> that would have been that would have been D.C. water, uh, engineers and also external contractors as well, have taken a look at the lines. >> um, and then his recommendation came back, resulted in, uh, the dc water board approving, um, an emergency contract. Is that is that correct? >> um, I don't, I, I'm not aware of which date you're talking about. >> well, that.
▶ 3:43:24>> would, which board meeting that you're, that you're speaking to. I know. >> that Mr. gaddis you're well aware of this. I mean, you know, this just answer. I mean, for crying out loud. Uh, I have it right here. And it was to address failures of the potomac interceptor, high priority repair, rehabilitation of section of the potomac interceptor address sections that warrant repair in advance of longer term capital projects.
▶ 3:43:50So when you issue an emergency contract, that by definition means you don't go through the regular request for proposal. You know that there's a problem that needs immediate attention that isn't that why the board approved an emergency contract? You would have later gone out with an rfp for for long, longer term capital projects? Uh.
▶ 3:44:20>> congressman, the I assume the emergency contract that you are referencing was a msa. And so it was not necessarily for that segment of the pipe either. It was to become part of a master service agreement. >> I've got it right here. And it says it's for the potomac interceptor. It might not have been that specific site, but but your engineer knew that the line was degraded.
▶ 3:44:45And as a matter of fact, they knew that there were multiple places along the line where a collapse, uh, could have occurred. That's what that's the reason why you had to issue an emergency contract.
▶ 3:45:00Uh, what I don't understand is after the board met and voted for the emergency contract, based on, uh, the recommendations of of your engineer, you didn't execute the contract. >> congressman, first of all, our board does not approve contracts. Our, our, our board, uh, gives us the right to negotiate contracts.
▶ 3:45:26And so we, we negotiate contracts, but our board does not approve contracts. >> it was it was a subcommittee of your board or was it the board? Who. I have the minutes of the meeting. Uh, you did it virtually the meeting. And it was approved almost $45 million contract and. >> was approved for us. It was approved for us to negotiate a contract.
▶ 3:45:55Uh, not not approved by the board for that contract to actually be instituted. So there was a negotiations that had to occur. >> because contract. So it does not say to negotiate a contract says contract. Listen, I'm not trying to go after anybody. I'm trying to make sure this doesn't happen again. In the first panel. That was the whole point of my my line of questions in the first panel was to make sure this doesn't happen again.
▶ 3:46:23And so trying to, to avoid any culpability and or any appearance of, of, of incompetence is not what this is about. It's about making sure this doesn't happen again.
▶ 3:46:41I mean, this is an ecological environmental disaster because you didn't you didn't execute the contract in a timely manner to have someone on site with the ability to mitigate a collapse or a breach. And, you know. That really bothers me.
▶ 3:47:05I just what I'm trying to find out is why the contract wasn't executed and why this, why this was allowed to happen. And there's failures across the board.
▶ 3:47:22This, the, the, uh, the park service, the corps of engineers have all been notified when the inspection showed, uh, certain sections of the line were in imminent, uh, um, possibility of breach or collapse. They should have been informed. This should have been a total team effort.
▶ 3:47:42The one thing that you did right, in my opinion, was you, your engineer, gave a report to the board or members of the board, and they approved an emergency contract. The one thing that you really failed on was to execute the contract. And I'm not done with this. I'm going to continue to look into this because I think this is not this is not a red or blue issue.
▶ 3:48:12This is not liberal or conservative. It's none of that. It's about taking care of people. There was a huge failure to take care of people. Mr. chairman, thank you for your for allowing me to get back. Uh, I yield back. >> the gentleman yields. Seeing that there are no further members wishing to ask questions, I would like to thank our witnesses again for being here today. I ask unanimous consent to insert into the record the documents included on the staff hearing documents list.
▶ 3:48:40Without objection, so ordered pursuant to committee rules, I remind members that they have ten business days to submit additional questions for the record, and I ask the witnesses to submit their responses within ten business days. Upon receipt of the questions, members should submit their questions by the close of business on thursday, june 4th. Without objection, the subcommittee is adjourned.