▶ 0:19:05Committee will come to order without objection the chair is authorized to clear recess at any time. We welcome everyone to today's hearing on the Southern Poverty Law Center. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Neals, to lead us all in the Pledge of Allegiance. Please stand and join me in honoring our nation's flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
▶ 0:19:36Thank you. Thank the sheriff for leading us um We'll begin with opening statements. The chair is recognized for an opening statement. They called them field sources, individuals the Southern Poverty Law Center paid to gin up hate, the very hate they told their supporters that they were fighting. Field source number 37, F-37, coordinated transportation and attended the 2017 rally in Charlottesville.
▶ 0:20:04The Southern Poverty Law Center paid him $270,000 to the guy who helped put together the event where a young lady was killed. Field source number nine, he got $1 million over nine years. F unknown, we don't know what number this guy was, but we do know he was the Imperial Wizard of the Klan, whatever that means, and he was on the Southern Poverty Law Center payroll.
▶ 0:20:31F-27, Southern Poverty Law Center paid him in six years, and what did he do? He ran the Aryan Nation motorcycle club. F-43, he was president of some crazy group, and he was previously convicted of cross burning, but the Southern Poverty Law Center thought he was worth of their donors' money. All told, $3 million.
▶ 0:21:01$3 million. $3 million to manufacture hate. Remember when Rahm Emanuel said, "Never let a crisis go to waste?" The SPLC took it a step further. They went one better. They said, "We're going to create the crisis. We're going to manufacture the crisis." And by so doing, they became the standard, the source for determining who's a hate group and who isn't.
▶ 0:21:25And of course, they labeled good pro-family organizations, conservative organizations hate groups like the Family Research Council that's with us today, like Moms for Liberty, like Turning Point USA. Even the Alliance Defending Freedom has argued numerous cases, won numerous cases in front of the Supreme Court. They labeled them all hate groups. But not Jane's Revenge. Nope.
▶ 0:21:48Even though Jane's Revenge firebombed and vandalized churches, crisis pregnancy centers in the aftermath of the Dobbs decision, they never made the Southern Poverty Law Center's list. And the Biden administration, they helped make the SPLC the standard. They consulted with the Southern Poverty Law Center. They had quarterly meetings with them.
▶ 0:22:11Lisa Monaco, the Deputy Attorney General, the lady who runs the Justice Department during the Biden administrations, had quarterly meetings with the Southern Poverty Law Center. They gave the SPLC first look at FBI data, and they used them to train their prosecutors. And it all paid off. It all paid off. Just ask Mark Houck what happens when you train the prosecutors. They kicked in his door at 6:00 in the morning in front of him and his seven kids, arrested him. Of course, the jury found him not guilty.
▶ 0:22:42They couldn't just go talk to him, even though his lawyer said, "He'll He'll He'll meet you wherever. Come We'll meet you at the court." Nope. Kick in his door, harass him in front of his wife and family. January 23rd, 2023, the now famous memo- memorandum from the Richmond FBI field office.
▶ 0:23:02We know how it paid off cuz in that memorandum they cite the Southern Poverty Law Center as the And of course that memo says if you're a pro-life Catholic, well, you're an extremist. You're dangerous. Yeah, the SPLC became part of the weaponized effort of the Garland Biden Justice Department against the American people. Now, here's what's interesting. The Biden DOJ knew all about it. They had opened an investigation.
▶ 0:23:33They were looking into this group. They knew the Southern Poverty Law Center was running a scam, but they dropped the case. They dropped the case because when you meet with them, consult with them, have them train your prosecutors, well, guess what? You're not going to prosecute Nope, you're not going to prosecute them. They're too valuable politically. You got to use them for your political advantage, and that's exactly what the Biden administration did. And here's the scariest part of all. It worked.
▶ 0:24:03Field source 37, again, he was the first one I mentioned. He was part of the planning group for the Charlottesville rally. He was paid to coordinate transportation. He was paid to attend. After the event, again, after the event where a young lady is killed, the Southern Poverty Law Center almost tripled their income. It all worked. They went from 51 million annual income to 133 million dollars. Turned out for them creating hate was more profitable than fighting it. That's exactly what they did.
▶ 0:24:34They ran a scam. They became the standard. They didn't get prosecuted, and they made a ton of money. Made a ton of money. They're sitting on 800 million in assets, 700 million dollar endowment fund. Such a deal. Such a deal. But here's the good news cuz there is some good news. Here's the good news. President Trump got elected. Todd Blanche is Attorney General. Casper tells FBI Director, and guess what?
▶ 0:24:57They're prosecuting these guys for running a scam, ripping off their donors, falsely labeling all kinds of good organizations like the Family Research Council, Moms for Liberty Alliance, Defending Freedom, falsely labeling them hate groups. They got caught. Thank goodness they did. So, I want to commend the Attorney General and the work he's done, the FBI, most importantly, President Trump for being the guy who put these guys in those positions. We look forward to hearing from our witnesses today.
▶ 0:25:26This is something that we're And we look to bringing in the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center. We're in the We're in discussions with them about having We wanted him here today, couldn't make it. We're working on it, and we will do whatever it takes to get him on that witness stand to answer our questions about the scam they run, the lies they told, the things they did. With that, I yield to the ranking member. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to all of our witnesses.
▶ 0:25:53For decades, the Southern Poverty Law Center uh shared information about racist terror plots with the FBI gleaned from their informant program. The FBI was happy to receive it, and this practice frequently led to the disruption of dangerous conspiracies by the KKK and neo-Nazi groups to commit violence against synagogues, churches, African Americans, Jews, and other targeted minorities. So, why is the Department of Justice under Trump and Todd Blanche now prosecuting the Southern Poverty Law Center?
▶ 0:26:23The DOJ says that the SPLC defrauded its donors by paying undercover informants to infiltrate and collect intelligence on these racist But where are all the donors complaining about having been defrauded? is the evidence of the fraud? Where are the civil lawsuits that always follow in the wake of a fraud, a scam, or a rip-off?
▶ 0:26:48DOJ has offered no evidence that If was actually deceived or defrauded by this perfectly lawful, well-known, and accepted practice that the FBI itself approved for many years, using informants and undercover agents was indeed the basis for the FBI's own efforts to investigate racist extremist groups when that was a priority before the targets of the FBI became instead the perceived political foes of Donald In fact, what its donors love about the Southern Poverty Law Center
▶ 0:27:18is how effective it's been getting on the inside of extremely dangerous racial terrorist groups to find out what's going on, to try to stop the reign of terror of bombings, assaults, lynching, and arson. The violent price of white supremacy that goes back centuries in our country. Why are there no civil fraud lawsuits? Why has no one sued the Southern Poverty Law Center?
▶ 0:27:42From my experience as a former state assistant attorney general and a congressman who deals with constituents who get defrauded frequently, and now I'm the co-chair of the bipartisan Stop the Scams Caucus, I can assure you that victims of fraud are usually enraged after a period of being embarrassed, and they come forward to complain and to sue the fraudsters. What does a real fraud case look like? And how do the victims respond?
▶ 0:28:09Well, let's take this well-known, long-running fraud case called Trump University, which was shut down by the New York Attorney General's office when it determined that Trump University was systematically deceiving and ripping off its students and cheating them of a real education they paid for. Over 8,000 swindled students brought three different class action lawsuits that were certified by the courts against Trump.
▶ 0:28:38They tried for years to recover the lost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition for a completely bogus education, and they finally won a massive settlement for $25 million. So, that was more than 8,000 desperate young people who told their stories to the world. So far to my knowledge, there's not a single donor to the Southern Poverty Law Center who's come forward to say that he or she was defrauded, much less thousands of them.
▶ 0:29:07And they have many thousands of donors. Everybody can see what's happening with this outrageous, scandalous prosecution in Alabama, an outrageous, scandalous persecution here on Capitol Hill. If anyone has flipped sides to join the racist extremists, it's not the SPLC, it is the FBI itself. And if a fraud is being perpetrated on the public right now, it's not an SPLC fraud. SPLC's been an enemy of the clan and neo-Nazi groups for more than a half century.
▶ 0:29:38It's been unswerving and steadfast, which is why their offices were bombed, and why they get an unending unending stream of violent death threats, something which makes this prosecution and persecution all the more appalling. No, what we're witnessing is a Trump administration fraud on a vast and shocking scale. President Trump has coddled and cultivated the extreme right for as long as he's been in politics.
▶ 0:30:02After the infamous Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in August of 2017, when neo-Nazis marched on a synagogue and the University of Virginia chanting Jews will not replace us, when a homicidal extremist drove his car into peaceful counter-protesters and killed Heather Heyer, Trump could only bring himself to say that there were some very fine people on both sides.
▶ 0:30:27In 2020, when he was directly asked in a nationally televised presidential debate to condemn white supremacists, he told the Proud to stand back and stand by, which they immediately adopted as their official motto and emblazoned on their t-shirts.
▶ 0:30:44In office, the Trump administration has dismantled the anti-domestic terror infrastructure at the FBI, at DOJ, at the Department of Homeland Security, constantly shifting resources away from monitoring racially motivated violent extremism into immigration enforcement.
▶ 0:31:01He's gutted the Civil Rights Division, which is charged with prosecuting hate crimes, defunded the Center for Prevention Programs and Partnerships, which had helped prevent more than a thousand violent terror plots since 2020, and installed a 22-year-old with zero national security experience except for Model United Nations his junior year of college to run what remains of our terrorism prevention office.
▶ 0:31:27He's redirected the Civil Rights Division to focus on so-called anti-white discrimination instead of the actual hate crimes devastating communities across America. He fired the federal prosecutors and FBI agents who investigated and convicted the extremists who attacked the Capitol on January 6, 2021. And just this month, the Trump administration released a new national counterterrorism strategy that literally erases right-wing violent extremism from the record.
▶ 0:31:53The strategy identifies drug cartels, Islamist terror, and violent left-wing extremists as the nation's top threats, but makes no mention whatsoever of far-right extremist white supremacist violence, or domestic neo-Nazi terror.
▶ 0:32:07This despite a decade of data from the non-partisan Center for Strategic and International Studies showing that right-wing extremists carried out 152 attacks in the United States and killed 112 Americans compared with 35 attacks and 13 deaths attributed to left-wing extremists. Again, he just blames his enemies for what his side is doing.
▶ 0:32:31Trump's real relationship to the extreme right was on full display January 6, 2021 when the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, and 3%ers, all in Roger Stone's sphere of influence, led the violent assault on the Capitol and our police force, as Trump exhorted a crowd of thousands to go out and fight and fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore.
▶ 0:32:51That mob not only chanted hang Mike Pence, referring to Donald Trump's then Vice President, and tried to shut down the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in American history, but brutally assaulted our police, wounding, injuring, and disabling more than 150 officers, terminating many careers in the process.
▶ 0:33:13But, what has President Trump done to support, praise, or even just thank the police officers who saved members of the House and Senate and his own Vice President from the rampaging mob he had incited? Nothing. What's he done to help Sergeant Gonell, whose brutal injuries forced him to retire from the Capitol Force? Nothing. What's he done to help Officer Harry Dunn, who was taunted with racial slurs throughout the day on January 6th? Nothing.
▶ 0:33:38Officer Michael Fanone, who wasn't even on duty, but came down to join his brothers and sisters in the blue to defend our democracy and was nearly ripped to shreds by the mob and had a heart attack. What's he done for him and his family? Nothing. No, Trump praises the J6 criminals, calling them heroes, martyrs, patriots, even hostages.
▶ 0:34:00He pardoned and commuted the sentences of more than 1,500 of them on his first day in office, both the violent felons who attacked our officers with Confederate battle flags, baseball bats, and steel pipes, and the organizers behind the scenes who were convicted of seditious conspiracy, the deliberate and coordinated effort to put down and overthrow the government of the United States.
▶ 0:34:22Trump wasn't interested in the specific criminal backgrounds of any of the criminals he pardoned, whether they were child abusers, arm robbers, or drug traffickers. Nor was he interested in whether they'd shown any contrition or remorse for the worst mob attack on the capital and the police in the history of the capital city. Nor was he interested in whether they paid off their fines or restitution for the millions of dollars in damages inflicted.
▶ 0:34:47He just pardoned them all en masse, overriding the pardon attorney in the DOJ, and liberating his private militia from jail. Many of these pardoned convicts have already gone out to commit more crimes since Trump let them out. Take for example Andrew Paul Johnson, who Trump let out of jail and then promptly went out and sexually attacked and molested two 12-year-old children, one boy and one girl.
▶ 0:35:12He is now back in prison for life, but Trump's stupid blundering decision-making forever altered the lives of those children. Oh, and by the way, last year Andrew Paul Johnson, in a desperate bid to get these children not to turn him in to the police, told them that because he had stormed the capital on January 6th, he was going to be, quote, awarded $10 for his work and would be able to split the money with them if they agreed not to talk to the police.
▶ 0:35:39Now, that brings us to the real fraud underway this week. Donald Trump has withdrawn his bogus $10 million lawsuit against the IRS because the judge in the case, Kathleen Williams, doubted there was even a case or controversy and whether Trump had proper standing to bring it. And there was clearly no adverse relationship between Trump and the IRS. In any event, he withdrew it. He knew he was going to lose. Now, Trump is claiming that he and the IRS have a so-called settlement, which is not possible because the case was dismissed.
▶ 0:36:09This fraudulent settlement involves not only an agreement by the IRS and the DOJ not to investigate or prosecute Kim, his family, and his businesses forever for tax frauds that he may have committed in the past, but the establishment of a billion dollar slush fund in the DOJ called the anti-weaponization fund that will be used to reward his friends and foot soldiers. This is lawless.
▶ 0:36:37To begin with, Trump doesn't establish federal programs and appropriate money for them. We do that. That's the power of the purse, which belongs exclusively to Congress. We never set up this political slush fund to be run out of the DOJ and we never would. We have a judicial system to hear authentic cases and controversies. Not a single J6er has had charges thrown out because of a false, malicious, or retaliatory prosecution.
▶ 0:37:02Not a single one has had their criminal conviction reversed on appeal because of a false, malicious, or retaliatory prosecution. The idea that they were falsely or maliciously prosecuted has not been found by a single judge, Republican, Democratic, or independent appointee. And this is a defamatory slur on law enforcement and the serious civil servants at the DOJ have been under attack since this nightmare of mega weaponization began in January of last year.
▶ 0:37:30False, malicious, and retaliatory pros- prosecutions are how Donald Trump and his DOJ operate, not real law enforcement, not real prosecutors. We would never set up a political slush fund to compensate the J6ers for their imaginary injuries because it's blatantly unconstitutional.
▶ 0:37:46Section 4 of the 14th Amendment, which I commend to all of my colleagues, it's in the Constitution, provides that the United States shall not assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States. All such debts, obligations, and claims shall be held illegal and void.
▶ 0:38:08So, everybody who thinks they're getting a big payoff this week, a million dollars per J6er is the word on the street, should understand Uh this payment is illegal and void, meaning that the money belongs only to the taxpayers of America, the people of the United States, and we will get that money back if any insurrectionist gets any. My friends, the Southern Poverty Law Center is not perpetuating a fraud.
▶ 0:38:36Today, the Trump administration is perpetuating a fraud against America by taking nearly $1.8 billion of our money from the US Judgment Fund for the payment of actual court judgments and damages and without any legal authorization from Congress purporting to use it to pay off his once and future private militia.
▶ 0:38:58No one is fooled by all the counterfeit outrage about the SPLC and finger pointing at the people who've actually been combating violent racism in America. Mr. Chairman, the threat is not the SPLC. The real fraud is coming from the White House.
▶ 0:39:16Just yesterday, the New York Times reported that the career lawyers in the IRS Chief Counsel's office believe that Donald Trump's lawsuit is deeply flawed and could be easily defeated and they drafted a memo advising the DOJ to dismiss it. Of course, instead the DOJ entered into the $1.8 billion settlement instead. The General Counsel for the Treasury Department, Brian Morrissey, the top lawyer, resigned on the same day this settlement was announced.
▶ 0:39:42We've got many questions for everybody involved in this brazen and corrupt transaction. Mr. Chair, pursuant to clause 2K6 of Rule 11, I move that the committee now immediately subpoena those involved in the creation or execution of the nearly $1.8 billion slush fund, Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, Associate Attorney General Stanley Woodward, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, IRS Chief Executive Officer Frank Bizignano, and Treasury Department General Counsel
▶ 0:40:12Brian Morrissey. Mr. Blanche orchestrated this outrageous slush fund as part of the settlement with Donald Trump, which was also signed by Mr. Woodward and Mr. Bessette will oversee the payout of these funds. Mr. Bisignano signed off on the settlement for the IRS and Brian Morrissey remarkably resigned as this deal was being announced.
▶ 0:40:34These individuals all possess critical insights into Trump's self-dealing scheme with his own agencies to create this fund and reward his supporters and friends. So, I move that they be subpoenaed right now. I second. The gentleman has not been recognized for that purpose. We will hold any motions to subpoena in abeyance until the conclusion of today's hearing. We will without objection all of their opening statements will be included in the record. We will introduce today's Please to have with us Dr. Carol Swain. Mr. Chairman, I just want to request a recorded vote on that if that's all right.
▶ 0:41:04Well, we'll do that when when it's time for that, but that's not time for that now. We're holding it in Dr. Swain is author and former professor of Princeton University and Vanderbilt University. She has served on various government commissions, including the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Tennessee Advisory Committee to the US Civil Rights Commission. She graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Roanoke College and received a master's degree from Yale and her PhD from North Carolina. Mr. Tyler O'Neil is a senior editor at The Daily Signal, where his reporting focuses on nonprofit organizations.
▶ 0:41:34He previously was an editor at PJ Media and Fox News and is the author of two books. Mr. Tony Perkins is the president of the Family Research Council, a nonprofit organization that advocates for family-centered policies. He's an ordained minister and previously served as the chair and vice chair of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom. Mr. Perkins has also previously served as a member of the Louisiana House of Representatives. And Ms. Maya Wiley is the president and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights.
▶ 0:42:02She previously served in the Civil Division of the US Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York and worked at the ACLU and the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Educational Fund. We welcome our today's witnesses and thank them for appearing today. And if you all please stand, we will begin by swearing you in. Raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
▶ 0:42:33Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. Thank you and you can be seated. Please know that your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony in 5 minutes and we will start with Dr. Just make sure you hit the microphone. You hit that button. try to stay as close to five as you can, although I won't cut you off right at five. After all, we gave Mr. Raskin 15, so Good morning.
▶ 0:43:00Chairman Rankin, member, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify today on this very important subject. I am Dr. Carol M. Swain, a former tenured professor of political science and law at Vanderbilt, and I was also tenured at Princeton.
▶ 0:43:20I am a woman who rose from rural poverty in Southwest Virginia, earned five degrees, and built a career as a scholar of race, politics, and representation. My 1993 book, Black Faces, Black Interests, won three national awards and was cited by the US Supreme starting in 2009, I became the target of a sustained smear campaign by the Southern Poverty Law Center,
▶ 0:43:50an organization once respected for fighting real hate, but which I believe has become a weapon against conservatives, Christians, and dissenting voices. In September 2009, I found myself in the SPLC's crosshairs after I published an article in the Huffington Post titled Mission Creep and the Southern Poverty Law Center's misguided focus.
▶ 0:44:17I argued that the SPLC had drifted from its original mission of monitoring genuine genuine hate groups such as the KKK and the neo-Nazis towards targeting mainstream conservatives, immigration reformers, and anyone challenging progressive ideas on race and race and I specifically criticized the SPLC's attacks on figures like Lou Dobbs and organizations
▶ 0:44:48like the Center for Immigration Studies. I concluded my article with the line, "Rather than monitoring hate groups, the Southern Poverty Law Center has become Within weeks of my article, the Southern Poverty Law Center retaliated.
▶ 0:45:06In October 2009, SPLC spokesman Mark Potok publicly labeled me as an apologist for white This stemmed from my endorsement of a documentary film, A Conversation About Race, directed by Craig Boddyker, which I recommended for classroom use because it offered perspectives rarely heard on university campuses. This attack on me was not an isolated incident.
▶ 0:45:36The Southern Poverty Law Center has used guilt by association, cherry-picked picked quotes, and fabrications to damage and destroy reputations and organizations. There was long-term professional harm to Offers from other universities dried up, speaking opportunities declined, I became kryptonite in certain academic and media circles.
▶ 0:46:05My experiences with the Southern Poverty Law Center exposed a powerful tax-exempt organization with enormous influence over media corporations, law enforcement, and government that can chill speech and academic freedom without any meaningful accountability.
▶ 0:46:25These Southern Poverty Law Center's tactics, the mission creep creep because it's lost sight of its original purpose, guilt by association, weaponized hate labels have broader consequences. They distort public discourse and equate disagreements with bigotry. They influence tech companies, public and private schools, and federal agencies in ways that marginalize conservative and religious voices.
▶ 0:46:54Their smear tactics undermine individuals and organizations that are fighting for the public good. I urge this committee to examine the Southern Poverty Law Center's practices, its financial operations, its influence on government partnerships, the and it and the lack of transparency and accountability surrounding its hate group designation.
▶ 0:47:21Real civil rights work, real civil rights work, real civil rights work requires truth-telling, not retaliation against scholars who challenge orthodoxies, and certainly not the alleged financing of the hate the organization claims to fight. I hope Congress will deal with the Southern Poverty Law Center appropriately. Both political parties need to address this. This is a bipartisan issue.
▶ 0:47:51They should use all available means to hold this comp- organization accountable as you do or as you proclaim to do with other organizations. Let's hold everyone to the same standard. Thank you for your time and I will be ready to answer questions at the appropriate time. Thank you, doctor. Mr. Perkins, you're now recognized for 5 Chairman Jordan, ranking member Raskin, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
▶ 0:48:21I'm Tony Perkins. I've served as the president of the Family Research Council here in Washington since 2003. Americans once associated Southern Poverty Law Center with fighting the Ku Klux Klan during the Civil Rights era. That reputation gave the SPLC enormous moral credibility. But in November of 2010, SPLC shifted its focus beyond violent groups and began targeting Christian organizations opposing efforts to redefine marriage and human sexuality.
▶ 0:48:52Family Research Council was among the most prominent of that first wave. In August of 2012, FRC joined Governor Mike Huckabee in supporting Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day after the company was boycotted because its leadership publicly affirmed traditional marriage.
▶ 0:49:08Two weeks later, on August 15th, LGBT activist Floyd Corkins entered FRC headquarters carrying a 9-mm pistol, 50 rounds of ammunition, and 15 Chick-fil-A According to his later confession, his intent was to kill as many as possible and stuff the sandwiches into our As he entered the building and pulled the gun out of his backpack, our building manager, Leo Johnson, confronted him.
▶ 0:49:35Though seriously wounded, Leo stopped the attacker and prevented a mass casualty event. After multiple surgeries and months of rehabilitation, Leo returned to work and remains today affectionately known as Leo the hero, and he's here with us today. Leo, thank you.
▶ 0:50:03The following day investigators Corkins confessed to selecting FRC because of SLP SL SPLC's website and hate map. Following the attack, FRC appealed publicly, privately to SPLC to remove mainstream Christian organizations from its inflammatory classifications. Those requests were rejected.
▶ 0:50:29The attack has cost FRC more than $6 million in security-related cost. But the cost extend way beyond one act of violence. SPLC's intelligence project and associated associated labels became deeply influential on banks, payment processors, and technology companies increasingly relied on SPLC classifications to decide which organizations could maintain accounts, process transactions, and operate
▶ 0:51:00Around 2016, the SPLC began pressuring financial corporations and technology companies to deplatform and defund organizations that it labeled extremist. Then came Charlottesville. According to the recent federal indictment, a member of the online leadership that planned the Unite the Right rally at the direction of the SPLC and helped coordinate transportation for attendees was bankrolled by SPLC. Charlottesville, don't miss this. Charlottesville was a catalytic event for SPLC.
▶ 0:51:30As major corporations like Apple, JP Morgan Chase aligned with SPLC contributing millions of dollars. Shortly afterwards, the coalition known as Change the Terms was formed led by SPLC and the Center for American Progress. Establishing standards that would encourage companies to deny digital access and financial infrastructure to organizations that SPLC labeled.
▶ 0:51:57The timeline of change the terms closely parallels the acceleration of the efforts to de-bank and de-platform conservatives. FRC experiences from Truist Truist Financial, BB&T BB&T, Fidelity Investments, GuideStar, Mobile Cause, and other technology-related companies. And SPLC officials openly acknowledge this strategy before Congress.
▶ 0:52:23In January of 2020, SPLC official LaShawn Brooks stated this, quote, "We have lobbied internet companies one by one. A key part of this strategy has been to target these organizations' funding." Brooks continued to describe the coordinated effort to pressure technology companies and financial institutions to restrict access access for organizations SPLC opposed.
▶ 0:52:49This committee The issue before this committee is larger than SPLC fraud. SPLC was the hub, but there are many spokes that made up this wheel designed to crush Christians and conservatives. The congressional should not stop with SPLC.
▶ 0:53:07In America, citizens should not lose banking services, digital platforms, public credibility, and a sense of safety because they believe in biblical marriage and sexuality.
▶ 0:53:22When government-related or regulated can apply ideological labels in a coordinated fashion to silence, isolate, and financially opponents, we have political targeting by proxy, and freedom is at risk. Uh thank you, Mr. Perkins, for that testimony. Leo the hero, thank you for your for your courage. Um we'll now go to Mr. O'Neal.
▶ 0:53:52Chairman Jordan, Ranking Member Raskin, members of the committee, I'm honored to testify before you today. I will argue that the Southern Poverty Law Center does not merely track hate. It systematically inflates it, profits from it, and according to a federal indictment, may even have helped create The first thing to know about the SPLC is that it has nothing to do with The poverty palace has an endowment
▶ 0:54:22as assets of 822 million dollars. That's more than three times the assets of the national YMCA and almost twice the sum of Planned That's why former employees have suggested mocking mottos for the SPLC, such as making hate pay. How did the SPLC become so wealthy?
▶ 0:54:51Co-founder Morris Dees set up a lucrative fundraising engine by suing the Ku Klux Klan into bankruptcy. When the SPLC ran out of grand dragons to slay, the center needed to find more hate to justify the fundraising. It has a financial incentive to juice the numbers.
▶ 0:55:13The SPLC began to publish a hate map that plots mainstream conservative and Christian groups alongside Klan The map includes Moms for Liberty, PragerU, Turning Point USA, and even Focus on the Family. The SPLC says the map reveals the infrastructure upholding white This hate map kills two birds with one stone.
▶ 0:55:42It silences conservative descent from the left's and the SPLC's agenda, and it exaggerates hate to keep the money flowing. The map also includes groups that barely exist, like a Confederate memorabilia shop and a convent. In 2023, I analyzed the map and found that it exaggerated hate by at least 267%.
▶ 0:56:10By including mainstream conservatives, double counting groups, and mentioning defunct organizations. Given this track record, is it really so far-fetched to think the SPLC might be propping up some of the very white supremacist groups it claims it exists to oppose? A federal grand jury indicted the SPLC on fraud charges because it had funneled $3 million to members of the Klan.
▶ 0:56:40The SPLC didn't deny the payments, but said it was funding informants who had tipped the center off to violent threats before they happened. But, that's not what allegedly happened in Charlottesville in 2017. According to the indictment, the SPLC paid an organizer and directed this person's racist postings. The indictment suggests the SPLC's involvement made Charlottesville larger than it otherwise would have been.
▶ 0:57:11After Charlottesville, the SPLC's annual fundraising doubled. Social media companies volunteered to start silencing hate groups. CNN plastered the hate map on its Charlottesville was a payday for the And this so-called informant may have been the SPLC's most cunning investment.
▶ 0:57:37Of course, if it became known that the SPLC had paid a Charlottesville organizer, that would be a massive No wonder the SPLC allegedly lied to a bank setting up shell companies to fund these informants. Why does this matter? SPLC staff have briefed DOJ prosecutors. Big tech companies have used the SPLC to blacklist conservative nonprofits.
▶ 0:58:06School districts across the country have adopted the SPLC's curriculum. Hundreds of companies systematically exclude conservatives from their charity programs because of the SPLC. The SPLC also has have offshoots that engage in similar efforts against conservatives. The Change the Terms Coalition banded together to pressure Big Tech to deplatform conservatives.
▶ 0:58:33And former SPLC staff have founded the Global Project against Hate and If an organization can inflate threats, influence federal policy, and conceal its role in allegedly fueling the very extremism it condemns, then Congress has a duty to investigate it and its Thank you, Mr. O'Neal. Ms. Wiley, you're recognized for 5 minutes.
▶ 0:59:01Thank you, Chairman Jordan and Ranking Member Raskin, and to the entire committee for having me here today. I'd like to get right to the point. The attack on SPLC is nothing more than part of a larger, broader, coordinated attack on civil rights organizations, ones that work to ensure voters can that children can learn, and people can live without fear.
▶ 0:59:32Multiracial democracy is something Americans value, but as the administration has gutted civil rights enforcement and the Supreme Court has gutted the Voting Rights Act, it is in Civil rights organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center are fighting to protect all of our rights. It has done so for more than five decades. It helped bankrupt violent white supremacist organizations including the United Klans of America.
▶ 1:00:00It has brought major voting rights cases including to secure fair representation for black voters in Alabama. And it educates the public on threats from extremist movements before those threats turn to Sadly, this work is critical. A San Diego mosque and the families of three brave fathers are mourning the hate apparently hate-motivated killings from just Monday.
▶ 1:00:30No one should fear violence in a place of worship or anywhere else. SPLC has been targeted by extremists and their supporters for years, not because it is dangerous, but because it is effective. Today, it is SPLC. But in a sense, we are all SPLC. I won't spend much time picking apart the preposterous criminal charges because I have complete confidence in SPLC's ability to do so in court.
▶ 1:00:59But all Americans, no matter our party or beliefs, should uh um not should not sleep on this hearing and what is Because Monday's murders at a mosque appears to be from two young people apparently espousing neo-Nazi and white supremacist hate, and they took up arms.
▶ 1:01:22We need to discuss hate ideologies and the groups that spread them to understand how we can prevent the kind of violence that happened on Monday. Trying to distort SPLC's use of informants into some claim that engaged in manufacturing hate is not only it's an effort to deny that hate exists.
▶ 1:01:45Prosecution should never be tolerated as a weapon to silence disagreement or stop lawful activities that this administration dislikes. In the past year we've seen countless examples of weaponization against law firms, universities, media companies, advocates of basic rights branded as domestic terrorists, important nonprofits that had their grants cut off, protesters who faced violence.
▶ 1:02:13The use of criminal prosecutions is consistent with this pattern. And our concern is that no organization seen as dissenting from any administration's policy, large or small, should ultimately face this kind of abuse of We are also concerned that some private financial companies, namely Schwab, Fidelity, and Vanguard, have joined in the administration's efforts to cut off funds that donors have asked be sent to Southern Poverty Law
▶ 1:02:43Center. In this case, it doesn't appear that conviction is the goal. Starving the SPLC of resources, tarnishing its reputation, and ultimately bullying it into compliance is more likely the Luckily, SPLC and civil rights organizations will not be intimidated. SPLC is continuing to fight against hate and to stand up for people's rights.
▶ 1:03:08It just sued the Defense League for anti-Semitic and racist harassment of Jewish and black residents in Nashville. It has sued to ensure that voters in Cobb County, Georgia are getting their absentee ballots on time. And it continues to educate us about the growth of hate and extremism in this country, which even federal data has shown has doubled since 2015. It is real.
▶ 1:03:35The SPLC is far too busy fighting hate to manufacture it. You don't have to like or agree with all of its strategies. I wouldn't ask that. But the fact that SPLC is being criminally charged for its work only shows how much work it has to do. Thank you. Uh that concludes opening statements. Before going to 5-minute questions, the chair recognizes the ranking member for for some comments. Uh Mr. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for this.
▶ 1:04:02I just wanted to note the very uh sad occasion of the passing of a distinguished uh former member of the House of Representatives, Barney Frank, um who succumbed to his illness and died just moments ago. And so, I wanted to make sure that all members knew about the passing of this great champion of civil rights and civil liberties. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll yield back to you. Mr. Chairman, if I could just add, I mean, Rep.
▶ 1:04:27Frank was obviously a huge advocate for civil rights, particularly LGBTQ rights, and uh a big advocate for finance reform across our uh economic structures. So, his his voice will certainly be missed. Thank you. I would just relate what I remember about one of the things I remember about Representative Frank was um when I first got here, this was back when the motion to recommit was actually a debate. Some of you may remember. It's a 5-minute debate.
▶ 1:04:55And I was a freshman, and for some reason, leadership asked me to do the motion to recommit. Said, "Would I be willing to do the motion to recommit on a bill sponsored by Barney And I said, "No, are you crazy? I I I don't know It was It was a financial services bill, but I said, "I don't know the subject. Plus, I've seen the guy debate. I'd I'd rather not do that particularly as a freshman. Uh so, he was very good at holding his own in any type of discussion or debate, uh and I think we all have uh those those memories of uh the late
▶ 1:05:25Mr. Chairman. Mr. Nadler is recognized. Barney was a great champion of all kinds of civil rights and civil liberties. I particularly the day in 2008 when he became the first member to offer a motion uh to legal- to legalize transgender uh uh to recognize transgender people. Chairman, I'll recognize
▶ 1:05:54Gentleman from California.
▶ 1:05:56At the risk of piling on, we all have uh that served with Barney have uh some fond memories. I'll just close out mine by saying from the time I was a freshman, he was very good at coming up to me and saying, now you're probably not going to be for this, but you should be." and or or some similar ones. And on occasions, it was true.
▶ 1:06:23And uh that was the thing about uh incredibly uh if you will happy warrior at times. Uh he wasn't always happy, but when he was and on this committee where I served with him, uh he was he was happiest when there was real debate, when uh he could use his wit uh to either change minds or at least embarrass those who had come half prepared. So, yes, he will be missed, and I thank the gentleman. We'll now move to 5-minute questions.
▶ 1:06:53The gentleman from Arizona is recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And uh Ms. Wiley, the SPLC labeled a brilliant black conservative, the woman sitting to your left, Dr. Carol Swain, a {quote} "apologist for white close quote, simply for daring to disagree with them. Do you personally think Dr. Swain is a I don't know Dr. Swain. What I will say is what's important about the Southern Poverty Law Center's
▶ 1:07:21you. I'm asking you. You're choosing not to answer. I'm asking you. You're choosing not to answer. Okay, you don't know her. You Have you read any of her writings? I have not. Okay. So, Dr. Swain, what was the impact of SPLC's radical just uh unnecessary uh attack on you? What What was the result of that? It actually set in motion a series of events that uh led to my retiring in 2017.
▶ 1:07:51Now, there are more things that happened, but once the Southern Poverty Law Center labels uh a a black conservative as a an apologist for white supremacist, then uh people don't know how to process that. But, I can tell you that James Taranto of The Wall Street Journal wrote a 2,000-word article uh in defense of Carol Swain. That's the title of the article, In Defense of Carol Swain.
▶ 1:08:18That helped a lot, but I think that it hurt the Southern Poverty Law Center uh as well because people knew that if they went after the author of a book on white nationalism uh published with Cambridge Press in in 2002, a book The New White Nationalism in America is challenged integration, uh they went after me. Uh and so, I was It It You You're a You were a tenured um Vanderbilt and Princeton Yes.
▶ 1:08:48and it impacted your career. It definitely impacted my career. Thank you Thank you for that information. So, let's just uh let's just cut to the chase here. SPLC's closing in on a $800 million nest egg. I'm happy I happen to have their 990 employees and how much they get paid, the president CEO from this filing from 2024, $466, is the base salary.
▶ 1:09:13Total with perks, 522,000 and you go on down the list and there when the list closed for me, I didn't see anybody making less than per year from them. And there's a reason that the Charity Watch gives SPLC an F as a charity.
▶ 1:09:33The organization's recent federal indictment for wire fraud alleged that it secretly took some of that money for over $3 million in donor funds to informants tied to extremist groups like the KKK, Aryan Nations. And it only confirms what Mass Resistance has warned about for years that the SPLC was never fighting hate, was manufacturing it to justify existence. Mr.
▶ 1:09:55O'Neal was talking about Eisen who actually was one of the who was attacking the KKK and then actually had to had to shift when they put them out of business because they needed money. And so then it became this this mission to attack people and and falsely label them and basically gin up the the the basic uh uh money machine that they were doing. And I want to ask you, Mr.
▶ 1:10:21Perkins, they your your team was specifically targeted by SPLC. And as a result of their targeting you for having espousing traditional American and biblical values, they there was actually uh an attempt at mass violence. Can you describe that a little bit and and talk about our our hero Leo the hero just a a little bit more?
▶ 1:10:51Uh the the gunman who's now serving prison for domestic terrorism came into the building with a gun. Leo, who is the building manager, was actually standing at the front asking what he needed. He pulled the the revolver pulled the semi-automatic pistol out of the backpack. Uh he began shooting. The first round hit uh Leo in the arm shattering his arm. He was still able to take him down. More shots were fired. The bullet holes remained in the walls of our building.
▶ 1:11:21Uh Leo was able to disarm him and take him down and even even recover the weapon and and and in following that watching the footage with the FBI agents who were surveilling it "Why did he not He was bleeding out. Why didn't he fire the round into Corkins to make sure that he could not come back at And I didn't know the answer. As a former police officer, I would have just as the FBI said, I would have defended myself not knowing if I was going to pass out.
▶ 1:11:49So, I asked Leo when he came out of surgery that night. I went to the hospital about midnight. He came out of the hospital and uh my first question was, "Leo, why didn't you shoot him?" And he said, "Because God told me not We're not here for revenge. We're here for justice. And what they have inspired not just to us, but to thousands of Americans who love this country and happen to believe the Bible as a definitive way to live. They want to silence us.
▶ 1:12:18And I And I I stood on the street the day after the shooting and I'll say it again. We will not be silent. We will not shrink back. We will not apologize for biblical truth. We will continue to stand for it. The gentleman is chiming in. You bet. Uh thank you. Uh Mr. Nadler, recognize gentleman from New York is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, we've heard a lot of over the last few days about so-called weaponization.
▶ 1:12:44As Donald Trump rolled out his settlement slush fund to reward his friends and allies, including insurrectionists, white supremacists, and others within the mega faithful. But this hearing is among the worst kinds of weaponization. Using the power of the Judiciary Committee to further Donald Trump's personal vendetta against those who seek to hold him and his allies accountable.
▶ 1:13:06He has weaponized the Department of Justice to stifle dissent, attacking law firms, universities, and members of civil society that dare challenge him. And to now this committee is being pressed into service to join in his petty campaign of retribution. That is because the dignity of that is beneath the dignity of this committee, and which I have been proud to serve my entire career in Congress.
▶ 1:13:31But since we have been called here, I want to talk about the important work that the Southern Poverty Law Center does to take on one of the most malign forces in our society, and that is Unfortunately, anti-Semitism in America is not a relic of the past. It is a present and growing threat. The FBI has documented Jewish Americans as the most targeted religious group for hate crimes year after year.
▶ 1:13:57We have seen it erupt into mass violence, from the massacre at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh to the attack on Poway, Poway, California. We have seen it spread through online And we have seen it increasingly seep into mainstream right-wing politics, in conspiracy theories about Jewish financiers, in Holocaust analogies deployed as political weapons, and then figures with well-documented ties to white supremacists ascending to positions of influence.
▶ 1:14:27The Southern Poverty Law Center is on the front lines fighting anti-Semitism. In 2019, the SPLC won a $14 million judgment against the founder of the neo-Nazi website Daily Stormer, who orchestrated a full-blown doxing and harassment campaign against a local Jewish woman. She ended up getting more than 700 gruesome threats online. Like being told that she should have died in a concentration camp and that she was quote easy to find.
▶ 1:14:56Someone even posted an image of her and her 12-year-old son and their rabbi imposed on photos of the gates of One of our witnesses, Mr. O'Neal, has accused the SPLC of exaggerating hate.
▶ 1:15:10I wonder if he thinks that the hate against this woman was exaggerated or Last year, the Southern Poverty Law Center filed suit against the white supremacist extremist group Guy Ailes Defense League, an openly anti-Semitic group that calls for the return of the Nazi Party.
▶ 1:15:28SPLC sued because in 2024, the GDL launched a coordinated campaign against black and Jewish communities during a July 2024 hate tour, in quotes, in Nashville. These neo-Nazis were marching across the city, assaulting people they believed to be Jewish, harassing groups of young black children, and waving swastika Another one of our witnesses, Mr. Perkins, has called the SPLC quote a partisan smear machine.
▶ 1:15:59I certainly hope he does not believe that it is a partisan smear to call out neo-Nazis and to make them pay for assaulting Jews and harassing black Fighting against neo-Nazis, neo-fascists, and white supremacists is not a partisan issue. It should be very simple to reject these tenets. So, why is it so hard for Republicans to call out the anti-Semitism we see within the current administration?
▶ 1:16:25President Trump has not only hosted, but also refused to condemn Nick Fuentes, a Holocaust denier and white nationalist. Meanwhile, Republicans have remained silent as the administration attempted to implement political litmus tests in order for synagogues to be deemed eligible to receive security grants, hired known anti-semite anti-semites like Kingsley Wilson, Ed Martin, and Sebastian Gorka, and gutted the agencies charged with preventing domestic terrorism.
▶ 1:16:53Lip service about fighting anti-semitism rings hollow when you staff your government with people who embrace it, no matter how many task forces or advisory committees you form. And now they are coming after an organization on the front lines of fighting anti-semitism and racism in all its pernicious forms. Mr. Wile, in the time we have left, I want to turn to you.
▶ 1:17:12What harm does it do to the Jewish community or any targeted community when Republicans spread false information against one of the few organizations actively fighting hate crimes and tracking extremist groups? Representative Nadler, you actually shared one of the examples I would share, which is the Defense League lawsuit.
▶ 1:17:32Um, this is incredibly important for the Jewish community because anti-semitism and the great replacement theory that we're seeing in so many of these ideologies that SPLC is identifying actually comes for all of us. Comes for people who are black, comes from people who are transgender, uh, comes from people who are Jewish. And one of the things in the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights was co-founded with Jewish organizations and leaders. It is part of our roots and history as a civil rights coalition.
▶ 1:18:00And we have several of our Jewish groups have signed a letter that has been released today and sent supporting the Southern Poverty Law Center because it even modeled some of the ways that more elevation of anti-semitism could happen. One last thing I'll point out because the FBI was well aware of this despite the claim in the indictment.
▶ 1:18:22The Southern Poverty Law Center gave a event threat memo to the FBI before the Unite the Right rally because of the program we're talking about today, and identifying that there would be people there who were armed and as we saw in what turned out in that rally it was critically important. Thank you and I yield back. He yields back. Mr. O'Neal, they had an extremist file webpage, didn't they? Yes.
▶ 1:18:49And they would on this webpage they would they would pick out some crazy hate guy and they would you know some bad guy and he was like the extremist of the month they'd highlight him and they would say send us money to stop so-and-so. Is that right? Exactly. And F42 was one of the field sources number 42 chair of some crazy hate group Southern Poverty Law Center highlighted him on their webpage. He's bad, he's evil, send us money. Is that right? Yes. Did they tell their prospective donors they were paying this guy? No.
▶ 1:19:17They didn't tell them did they did they tell them they were paying him No, not to my knowledge.
▶ 1:19:24So they said let's stop the racist even though we're paying him to be racist. That was their pitch. But they didn't tell them that, did they? No, they did
▶ 1:19:31appropriate, Ms. Wylie? Uh I'm sorry, which which part? Sorry.
▶ 1:19:37All of that. Is that appropriate to say or tell your donors this is the extremist of the month this hateful racist guy is really bad send us money but not tell those donors who you're taking their money from that we're paying this guy $140,000. Is that
▶ 1:19:51Well, we have public reporting that it over a dozen donors actually said that they spent the money
▶ 1:19:56source field source 42 got 140 grand from the Southern Poverty Law Center was featured on their webpage as extremist of the year or month or whatever they call these bad guys and they were paying him and they were getting money. Is that appropriate? Simple question.
▶ 1:20:13And donors have supported it and they keep trying to send more money to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
▶ 1:20:18it is that technique appropriate? That's what I'm asking.
▶ 1:20:21That is not unlawful to say that people have done
▶ 1:20:26or unlawful as you said earlier in your testimony the court's going to determine that when they go to when they when when they go to trial. What I'm asking you is it appropriate? As I said, the donors have spoken. And in fact, they're trying to send more money now and their financial institutions refusing to send the money. Is the Alliance Defending Freedom, is that a hate group? I don't know. I don't do designations. Well, they they've uh argued 16 cases before the Supreme Court, won 16 cases before the Supreme Court. They stand for traditional values.
▶ 1:20:54Southern Poverty Law Center labeled them a hate group. Are they a hate group? I don't know them and I don't work on the designation.
▶ 1:21:01Let me ask you this. Is James Revenge, is that a hate group? Cuz the ADF, they didn't firebomb anybody, but James Revenge did. ADF is labeled a hate group. James Revenge isn't. I want to know how you would how you would label. I I'm not here as a person who designates groups. I'm here to talk about the impact on civil rights. Okay. Mr. O'Neal, is you think any of these field sources were double dipping?
▶ 1:21:25I mean, during the during the Wray Garland administration, the Justice Department paid a bunch of confidential human sources. A bunch of them. Uh we know a bunch of them were at at the Capitol on January 6th. Four went in the Capitol.
▶ 1:21:43And I'm just wondering if the same entity, the Justice Department under President Biden paying these confidential human sources who was working with the Southern Poverty Law Center, having quarterly meetings with them, consulting with them, giving them FBI data before anyone else could see it, having them train their prosecutors. I'm just wondering, do you think it was out of the realm of possibility that the Justice Department was paying the same sources the SPLC was paying? I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.
▶ 1:22:10I have no information or knowledge that they were double dipping. I would say that Steven J. Ross, who is author of The Secret War Against Hate, which is about the history of informants that Jewish groups had placed in some of these violent groups back, you know, decades and decades before the SPLC ever existed.
▶ 1:22:30He said that neither the ADL nor the American Jewish Committee nor the Anti-Nazi League did anything like highlighting informants online as in extremist profiles while also funding
▶ 1:22:43Yeah. Last question, I'll come to you, Mr. Mr. Perkins. In your opening statement, you talked about how it was just worse than the SPLC because how they've they've put themselves out there or become the standard at help from the government, I think, in becoming the source of the standard on evaluating and determining what groups are hate groups or what what groups aren't. Um but it's bigger and broader. It has things. But I think the real thing here is how closely how closely they worked with the government to carry out what they were trying to do.
▶ 1:23:13And the reason the Biden administration embraced them, I think, so fully was politics, simple politics. You agree?
▶ 1:23:20Well, there are members of this committee that were endorsed by SPLC. Uh they were they had a C4 was involved in elections. So, they were they were not just an umpire. They were a player on the field as well. So, how how can they be objective in determining who is uh a purveyor of hate and who is not? I mean, they had a they had a They had a stake in this.
▶ 1:23:44But to to your point about their engagement with government, it goes much further than the federal government and the FBI and the Department of Justice and the Department of Defense, which their material was in briefing to uh the the members of the military. But they also continue to have their learning for justice, which is about 500,000 educators across America and bulletins to local law enforcement.
▶ 1:24:07Uh and I happen to know because the agency I was with, the chair of called me and said, "Hey, we got a bulletin that says you're uh a part of a hate group." Yep. And he was laughing. Yep. And but that is the the reach that they've had. This is the hub. They're the hub, but there's spokes that go out and No, I think that's a appropriate metaphor. Uh my time is expired with that. I recognize the gentleman from Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr.
▶ 1:24:33O'Neal, uh have you ever heard the name Michael I I have, yes. I'm very familiar with the case.
▶ 1:24:41How about you, uh Mr. Perkins? You don't know? Never heard of him? How about you, Dr. Swain? You've never heard of Michael Donald You can cut your mic on. I'm not sure, but maybe if you give a
▶ 1:25:02Well, he was the He was the 19-year-old African-American black boy down in Mobile, Alabama. He's the uh son of uh Beulah Mae and um David Donald, the youngest of six He was um community college at the time while working part-time for a local
▶ 1:25:32And um on March 21st of 1981, he was lynched. You've never heard of that before? No, I have not.
▶ 1:25:47you did not know then that the SPLC uh was responsible for filing a lawsuit uh against the United Klans of America, which was whose members were responsible for lynching Michael Donald. You did not know that the SPLC had sued along with uh Beulah Mae Donald I have probably
▶ 1:26:11and uh received or obtained a judgment that ran the United Klans of America out of business. You weren't aware of that?
▶ 1:26:20I was totally aware of it. In fact, I used to say that.
▶ 1:26:22you this then. Let me ask you this. If you were aware of that, you know that they have been effective since then in running a number of Ku Klux Klan organizations out of business through lawsuits, correct? In my two You're aware of it, Mr. O'Neill, aren't you?
▶ 1:26:41Yes, I'm actually very aware of that case because the SPLC had a lot of McDonald's and wanted to make a video about it. Well, I didn't get to finish my Hold on now. Hold on now. You said that Charlottesville was a catalytic moment or a fundraising moment, both of you all have said for the Southern Poverty Law Center.
▶ 1:27:04You're aware of the fact that the Southern Poverty Law Center actually forwarded to the FBI information about Charlottesville before it even happened. Before Donald Trump said that the Ku Klux Klansmen down there and the anti-Jewish folks, anti-Semites were good people.
▶ 1:27:28You were aware of the fact that SPLC provided information to the FBI about that. Isn't that correct, Ms. That is correct. And they have been very effective at suing They have been a thorn in the side of the racist who, I'm sure, sat up in their graves, Robert E.
▶ 1:27:57Lee, Nathan Bedford Forrest, the former Confederate General, founder of the Ku Klux Klan, and others, Stonewall Jackson. I'm sure that they stood up in their graves and saluted when Trump was elected and when he took office because on the first day he eliminated all federal efforts to remedy the impact of slavery and
▶ 1:28:27racism in America. They call it DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Trump has tried to stop that and the United States Supreme Court
▶ 1:28:39has gone along with him in uh ending enforcement of the uh or the ability to enforce the Voting Rights Act, which is one of the ways that you, Ms. Dr. Swain, were able to get the right to vote. I don't understand it. Why is that?
▶ 1:28:55Can you tell me why it is that folks today claiming that we have no racism in America and the only extremism we have is through left-wing groups like the SPLC and they're targeting the SPLC. Can you tell us why?
▶ 1:29:16We've just seen an outright attack on all the gains of the civil rights movement for the past 60 years and I can only say that I will never be able to explain it, but at a time when hate crimes have doubled in this country, gone up 100% since 2015, where the rise in anti-Semitism, the rise in hate against transgender people, black people still remain the number one largest racial group subject to hate crimes, that we have to talk
▶ 1:29:47about racism, transphobia, all of the violence that too many of our communities are experiencing and no one in including any of the groups here should experience
▶ 1:29:57And Trump
▶ 1:29:58I think uh the gentleman's time the gentleman's time has expired. With that, we go to the gentleman from California, Mr. McClintock. I think the gentleman Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Eric Hoffer famously observed that every great cause becomes a movement that becomes a that becomes a racket. And I think that sums up precisely the matter before us today. SPLC is a private organization. They have a right to speak and influence the public policy discussion.
▶ 1:30:28No one questions that. Um what they do to malign innocent groups like Turning Point USA and Family Research Council and others is despicable and hateful, but that's freedom of speech. But freedom of speech does not include the right to defraud donors. It does not include the right to commit bank fraud. Uh those are the allegations in the grand jury indictment. We've got a legal system that I trust will sort those charges out.
▶ 1:30:56And it also doesn't include the right to slander, and we have good laws and civil courts to to hold them accountable for defamation. So, that leaves two legislative concerns. First is this. The civil rights movement, of which SPLC was once a part, had made great progress in uniting our country and marginalizing racist ideology and dramatically reducing racial strife between the 1950s and the But over the past several decades, that progress seems to have reversed.
▶ 1:31:26In recent years, we've watched our country torn apart by growing racial strife. And the allegation at the heart of this matter is that the SPLC was covertly fanning these flames for their own financial gain. Uh a significant flashpoint, of course, was the Charlottesville riots, which had fatal results.
▶ 1:31:46And I I do need to call out the ranking member for deliberately perpetuating the Democrats' dishonest claim that Donald Trump praised the Nazis at Charlottesville when he said there were, quote, very fine people on both sides. What the ranking member knows, but chose to leave out, is that Trump then said, "I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalist because they should be condemned totally." Unquote. Ranking member knows this and the fact that he perpetuated that today speaks for itself.
▶ 1:32:16Mr. Chairman, I ask that the gentleman's words are taken
▶ 1:32:20will suspend. The gentleman will What purpose does the gentleman interrupt? I ask that the gentleman's words be taken down. Which words Which words are Which words are you referring to?
▶ 1:32:32Well, he mentioned twice that uh the uh uh ranking member misled, deceived, and lied to this committee. The gentleman
▶ 1:32:43I didn't use the word deceive. I didn't use the word lie.
▶ 1:32:47He has a The gentleman Will both gentlemen please suspend? Will the recording clerk read back verbatim the that passage is being referred to? Both times. It's only one chair here. I'll take just one of them. It'll be fine. I I think we need
▶ 1:33:10will suspend. To put it in context, Mr. We got to have both both utterances.
▶ 1:33:17will suspend. I do need to call out the ranking member Uh Could you We can't hear you. Sorry. Okay, just as loud as you could, please.
▶ 1:33:47I need to call out the ranking member for delivering a lecture. I need to call out Go ahead. Album. deliberately perpetuating deliberately
▶ 1:34:19deliberately perpetuating the Democrats dishonest claim that Donald Trump praised the neo-Nazis
▶ 1:34:30Thank you. Thank you. Is that the passage or one of the two times that you're referring to? That's the first passage. Just one moment then, please. The chairman's prepared to rule.
▶ 1:34:55Although we would prefer that all people speak only to the facts and not to the previous statements of either side, it does not violate the rules of decorum to have an opinion as to the veracity of the other person's statement. With that, I thank the gentleman, but I will not take down Mr. Chairman, the second statement is the one that that I asked then that the words be taken down.
▶ 1:35:24It's It's only It's proper that we hear the second If the gentleman will suspend, I'll be patient. Could you please read or please read the second one and tell me is there a difference? What the ranking member knows but chose to leave out.
▶ 1:35:55Is that Trump then said I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis. Or white nationalist. Because they should be condemned totally. Thank you. Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:36:09The the the gentleman the gentleman will Having heard both of these and understanding them in context, they meet the requirement of the within decorum. Again, the chair would caution individuals to whenever possible to refer to the specifics and not to the testimony or the statements of either side. However, in context, it was not a violation for which the words may be taken down. And with that, the gentleman from California may
▶ 1:36:40Mr. Chairman. It is the gentleman from California inquire. It is the gentleman's time. I will hear your parliamentary question after the conclusion of his Point of order, Mr. Chairman. The gentleman will continue Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Point of The gentleman will state his point of Is it within the rules
▶ 1:37:01That is not how you state a point of order. State your point of order. My point of order is it's it's incorrect for the chair of the committee to not hear argument on a uh uh on a motion
▶ 1:37:18they if if you're considering it a point of order, in answer to the point of in answer to the point of order, a motion to have words taken down, the words speak for themselves. The had them heard. I am aware of what they were, and I've made my ruling. The gentleman, I thank him for his point of order. We now go to the gentleman from California, and I would ask that it be reset uh back to 2 minutes, and we'll conclude with 3 minutes or 3 minutes
▶ 1:37:49Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm reminded of that old movie line, "A gentleman can't handle the truth." Now we have the revelation that the SPLC paid the chief organizer of this Unite the Right riot was he while he was recruiting agitators and posting inflammatory rhetoric. And to learn that this was part of more than $3 million in dollars in such payments to such extremist groups
▶ 1:38:20uh begs the question of whether the SPLC was financing the very extremist groups it was assuring donors was fighting with their contributions.
▶ 1:38:30Uh the terrible attack on the mosque in San Diego on Monday was inspired by neo-Nazi propaganda. Was this surreptitiously financed by the SPLC or similar NGOs or perhaps even foreign governments?
▶ 1:38:43That's a legitimate concern and one that we need to fully The second legislative concern is that during the Biden administration, the Attorney General and the FBI director told this committee that white supremacist groups were the greatest single threat that our country The SPLC was one of the primary sources of this testimony. Was this an attempt to mislead Congress?
▶ 1:39:07And were the officials responsible for this testimony victims of misinformation by the SPLC or were they active participants in this deception? I think we need to get to the bottom of that as Now, Dr. Swain, you uh detailed the smear campaign against you that obviously caused you reputational damage and financial loss. And Mr. Perkins, your organization suffered both financial loss and actual violence. Um why haven't you sued the SPLC?
▶ 1:39:38Partly because information was not available as is now coming forth. Uh we did in we did talk to some attorneys initially about the uh the violence that was perpetrated, but because of really the the there were other suits that were brought against the SPLC, but their image was so strong until now that it was very difficult. We we had suits that were brought in court that did not succeed.
▶ 1:40:09I think it's a different day now and I think you may see some civil actions.
▶ 1:40:13I would certainly hope so. Uh Mr. O'Neil, is it possible the SPLC is not the only source of funds going to these extremist groups? Is it possible they're financed by other NGOs or even foreign governments? What what reforms would you recommend? Uh it is possible, but I have no knowledge of that.
▶ 1:40:30What I know are the allegations claimed in the indictment, but I would highly uh encourage Congress to consider adding to any writer of financial uh disbursements that no taxpayer funds be directed to an organization that systematically slanders and defames mainstream conservatives and Christians or frankly those on the other side of the aisle in the way that the SPLC does.
▶ 1:41:00Thank you. May I answer the question about why I haven't sued the Southern Poverty Law Center? If that's a question I'll allow you briefly answer if you would. Uh because I didn't have the financial resources. There's no way I could go up against an organization that had the types of resources as the Southern Poverty Law Center. The gentleman yields back. We now go to the ranking member of the full committee, gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Raskin for his questions.
▶ 1:41:30Um thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Just a footnote to that recent contretemps, I uh was not remotely offended by what the gentleman from California said because I'm used to having all of my points misstated by him regularly. It was interesting he said that I had accused the president of praising the Ku Klux Klan and the neo-Nazis. I never said that. I said he just made himself perfectly clear when he said there were very fine people on both sides. The fact that you can find him contradicting himself immediately thereafter and in other subsequent statements is just a reflection of how Donald Trump speaks.
▶ 1:42:01Sometimes China is his biggest enemy in the world and he was over in China then he loved a President Xi and he adored him and they're great friends and so on. So, that's Donald Trump. But I can't imagine any other president in American history finding very fine people on both sides of an anti-Semitic race attack like the one that led to the death of Heather Heyer. So, I I stand completely by what I said before and I reject completely your insinuation that I've misrepresented the reality.
▶ 1:42:29All I did was quote Donald Trump's own words. Ms. Oh, and I'll say one other thing. Very fine people on both sides, you know, to people in Charlottesville, that that was a very painful thing. My sister and her family happen to live in Charlottesville. The The Ku Klux Klan and the neo-Nazis gathered at the local synagogue. That's where they kicked off their attack on Jews and in Charlottesville.
▶ 1:42:56So, some people might be able to roll their eyes at that and say, "Oh, well, later he read a statement that his staff wrote for him saying that he he denounces racist violence." But he made himself perfectly clear. Ms. Wiley, have you heard any of these witnesses cite any evidence that anybody was deceived or defrauded by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which is the whole heart of this attack on them? Did you hear one iota of evidence being offered that anybody was deceived or defrauded?
▶ 1:43:27I have not, and we know as a matter of fact that donors continue to try to send money to the Southern Poverty Law Center and being blocked by sure
▶ 1:43:35In fact, haven't dozens of them stood up to say, uh, "No, they weren't defrauded in any way." That's why they're supporting the Southern Poverty Law Center because they've been so effective in going undercover to to, uh, blow the cover on these racist antisemitic plots.
▶ 1:43:50Yes, and I I just want to note that and because there was a representation made uh, about the SPLC that it worked with the Donald Trump Department of Justice providing information from its employ informant program in the first Trump administration. So, that's why we were so concerned to hear, uh, that denial that they had knowledge that the acting attorney general had to retract.
▶ 1:44:16This is something that should concern all Americans because no Department Justice should be behaving this way. Yeah, um, you know the not-for-profit sector very well. It seems like, uh, now one of the lines of attack against the SPLC is that the people who work there make too much money.
▶ 1:44:35Um, I just went online and checked out some of the, uh, the the salaried executives of the the right-wing groups that we're not having a hearing about today like, uh, the NRA, Wayne LaPierre was making 1.2 million dollars, uh, when he was there. Um, you could look at, uh, the Heritage Foundation, which in 2023 paid its president 953,000 dollars, I think three times what they're talking about there.
▶ 1:45:02I imagine being the CEO of the Southern Poverty Law Center is a lot more dangerous than being the president of the Heritage Foundation. Um, just very quickly on that, is there anything, um, to this, the idea that the the work of the Southern Poverty Law Center should be trashed and derided and dismissed because the people who go to work there in Alabama are being paid too much Well, certainly not and I think the point is the way in which the Southern Poverty Law Center is providing free legal services,
▶ 1:45:32for example, to a black community that it has developers coming for land and they won't benefit from the land, for food assistance programs, to make sure that a mother who has a disabled child 5 years old is getting the disability services the law requires. That is what is happening with donations as well and we are not talking enough about the work that civil rights organizations do, including SPLC.
▶ 1:45:59They're Well, let's let's talk about that because to listen to some of your co-panelists there, you'd think that there is no extremist hate violence taking place. What about the AME Church in Charleston, South Carolina where Dylann Roof, who was charged up on white supremacy, went out and killed nine How about the Tree of Life synagogue, the worst anti-Semitic attack in American history, where Robert Bowers, who was consumed with white genocide replacement theory, which we hear from even more mainstream conservative
▶ 1:46:29groups, killed 11 people? Is racist violence in fact some kind of myth made up by the Southern Poverty Law Center? No, and the government's own data demonstrates that. But also, if you look at The gentlewoman can answer the question, but not go on beyond that. The gentleman's time is expired. Thank you. Thank you. We now have to go to the gentleman from Virginia, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate you holding this hearing.
▶ 1:46:55The information that has come out in this indictment is truly disturbing. my district is adjacent to the district that include Charlottesville. Many of my constituents have family in Charlottesville. Many of my constituents work in Charlottesville. And to see that Let me ask you, Mr. O'Neal.
▶ 1:47:26The SPLC explicitly stated that they sought donations under the auspices that donor money would be used to help dismantle violent extremist F9, no, F37 who was a member of the online leadership chat group that planned at the 2017 Unite the Right event in Charlottesville and attended the event at the direction of the SPLC.
▶ 1:47:51Is that helping to dismantle these I would say the SPLC in subsequent did mention two cases where they claim information from don- from these informants, these field sources, led to federal prosecutions. So, I think that is important context to add. Thank you.
▶ 1:48:18I want to continue to inquire about this this Given the SPLC's track record of partisanship and its direct link to real-world violence, why did the FBI and DOJ during the Biden-Harris administration maintain a close relationship with the SPLC?
▶ 1:48:39Yeah, my understanding is that the SPLC's bias and targeting of mainstream conservative and Christian groups aligned very strongly with the Biden DOJ and the Biden White House's preferences.
▶ 1:48:55And that's why in my second book, The Woketopuss, I go through all of the ways in which the Biden administration solicited information on the domestic terror threat from the Southern Poverty Law Center, how we have this alignment with demonizing concerned moms and dads that happened consistently.
▶ 1:49:16And of course, when the SPLC released the hate map that included chapters of Moms for Liberty for the very first time, putting moms and dads who are concerned about their kids' education on a map with the Klan, they first gave an embargoed copy to their allies at the Civil Rights Division in the DOJ.
▶ 1:49:35So, the SPLC got special treatment, direct access to high-ranking officials in the Civil Rights Division, early access to FBI hate crime data, and invitations to exclusive events with DOJ leadership during the Biden and Harris Correct. In fact, uh they had one of their staffers by the name of R.G. Cravens, who uh spoke before DOJ prosecutors.
▶ 1:49:58This is the same man who when the Southern Poverty Law Center put Focus on the Family on the hate map last year, he defended putting Focus on the Family on the hate map by saying that it is both false and dangerous for conservative Christians to hold to biblical morality against uh the claims of the LGBTQ movement. And in October of this year, FD FBI Director Patel terminated the FBI's relationship with the SPLC.
▶ 1:50:25What was the the nature of the relationship prior to the termination? You You discussed that. Isn't it true that the FBI relied on the SPLC's hate group designation when determining which extremist groups to Yes. Uh specifically in the notorious memo from the FBI's Richmond office, which was coordinated with other FBI offices, they cited the SPLC's list of radical traditional Catholic hate groups.
▶ 1:50:53Interestingly, that's where my anecdote about a convent comes from, and one of those organizations on that list no longer existed and didn't exist at the time. Can you talk a little bit more about that FBI memo related to the Catholics in Richmond? Yes. So, this memo was released by whistleblowers.
▶ 1:51:14It was not meant to be publicly disseminated and only after a whistleblower released the memo, did the FBI, the national office, publicly come out and say that it didn't meet the FBI's standards. I'd say that's an understatement. It just took the SPLC's list of radical traditional Catholic hate groups verbatim and put it into the FBI's language in the memo.
▶ 1:51:38For for background, this is a list of radical traditional Catholic groups that is extremely outdated, according to my sources, and that was developed by Heidi Beirich, who now is leading the global project against hate and extremism. She's no longer even at the SPLC. It's truly shocking. Thank you for being here. I yield back. Gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:52:05I know there's talk of the Department of Justice's being vindictive prosecutions of SPLC. I just want to remind us all of something else that the Trump DOJ just did. On April 14th this year, exactly a week before it targeted SPLC, DOJ asked a federal court to vacate the convictions, convictions, of dozens of leaders of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers.
▶ 1:52:34Now, who are the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers? Both are far-right organizations that uh spout Islamophobic, mis- uh misogynistic, and white nationalist ideologies, and both happen to be on SPLC's watchlist. Both groups and others like them took up arms for Donald Trump and attacked the Capitol on January 6th.
▶ 1:52:57I thought I'd ask unanimous consent to put into the record two articles about the January 6th rioters and their later um Jim. crimes. People forget what happened in the weeks before January 6th in December of 2020 at yet another pro-Trump rally, uh they rioted in the streets of DC, vandalized historically black churches.
▶ 1:53:20White nationalists supporting Donald Trump uh vandalizing African-American places of worship right here in the Uh for their crimes leading up to and on January 6th, these individuals including Enrique Tarrio, Stewart Rhodes, and many others were convicted of seditious conspiracy and other felonies and sentenced to more than 100 years in prison collectively.
▶ 1:53:44Now, Donald Trump unleashed unleashed uh over 1,500 criminals on our streets, some of who have gone on to commit kidnapping, sexual assault, burglary, death threats against elected officials, and now the department is trying to erase their guilt permanently and ensure they cannot be re-charged. SPLC has been tracking these groups for years, long before January 6th, and designated them and others like them as hate groups.
▶ 1:54:14Uh SPLC has continued to call out these groups for the danger they pose to our communities and our democracy. Uh the label has upset these groups so much that Gavin McInnes, the founder of Proud Boys, who describes himself as a Western chauvinist and said Muslims are stupid, sued the SPLC in 2019 for defamation for designating them as a hate group, and that lawsuit failed. Ms.
▶ 1:54:41Walli, you've described the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers as the foot soldiers of January 6th. In your opinion, is documenting and naming these groups part of the reason why SPLC is now being punished by the Trump administration?
▶ 1:54:57Sadly, because of the pattern of behavior and weaponization that we have seen, it's hard not to conclude that a and particularly because [clears throat] of exactly the point you just raised representative Lofgren, that we're seeing pardoning of violence and violent insurrection from January 6th.
▶ 1:55:17Now, what does it say about this administration that is prosecuting the group that helped end the Klan, but apparently intending to give taxpayer money to violent white nationalist who vandalized black churches in the capital alike through this so-called settlement fund on a lawsuit that was bogus and barred by the statute of limitations.
▶ 1:55:40That's what this administration is, Donald Trump rewarding his foot soldiers for assaulting and beating up law enforcement in his name to the tune of billions of dollars and punishing their common enemy, the organization that monitors and calls out their crime.
▶ 1:55:59I'd I'd like to note that this isn't about just coddling the criminals who tried to overthrow the government and who attacked police officers viciously and I would add were convicted in courts of law by juries of their peers as as the Constitution provides, but also an effort perhaps to make sure that when a call goes out to violent extremists to overturn the government, to
▶ 1:56:29attack violently the government again, that those extremists will know a couple of things. One, that the president will pardon them for their crimes and two, that the president will reward them monetarily with taxpayer dollars for their violence and for their treason. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Gentlewoman yields back. Before recognizing the gentleman from North Carolina, I do have to step out for a minute.
▶ 1:56:55I want to just tell our witnesses that we'll be back shortly and I do think we have votes at about 12:30. So, there may be a little break and I should have mentioned at the outset if any of you need a break at any time, you know, uh you've been there almost 2 hours. I've stepped out a few times. So, if you need a break, just please let us know. Real quick, you you see? Yes, yes, Mr. Chairman. I have a series of letters uh from Moms for Liberty. Quickly. Yes. um Tina Descovich. Julie Mock.
▶ 1:57:27Uh and then a whole series of additional letters from Moms for Liberty. Then I also have Without objection. Thank you. Southern Poverty Law Center education material surprisingly common in red Without objection. Arizona school research directed teachers to condemn Moms for Liberty Turning Point USA in the class. Without objection. SPLC curriculum in K-12 learning for justice. Without objection. SPLC curriculum in Arizona document. Okay.
▶ 1:57:51Uh additionally, federal grand jury charges Southern Poverty Law Center for wire fraud, about false statements, and conspiracy to commit money laundering. Without objection. Southern Poverty Law Center is a scam, not an arbiter of justice. Without objection. SPLC is a hedge fund with a dumb anti-racism newsletter. Without objection. Exposing the SPLC and celebrating their future demise. Without objection. Biden DOJ was in cahoots with SPLC as it funded extremist groups. Without objection. SPLC's wealth raises questions despite controversial activities. Without objection.
▶ 1:58:20990 filed in October of 2024 by SPLC. Objection. And America First Legal reveals explosive documents exposing Biden Department of Justice's partnership and coordinated campaign with the Southern Poverty Law Center to weaponize civil rights enforcement. Without objection. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Harris is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Chairman, I'd also like to submit into the record a letter from Awake Illinois to the House Judiciary Without objection. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 1:58:46Uh I'm so grateful for all of you witnesses for being here today and I want to take just a few moments to talk about the shooting that took place at Family Research Council headquarters in 2012. That obviously hits home for me because I have followed and admired the great work of FRC as both a pastor involved for a number of years and now as a a member of Congress.
▶ 1:59:09In 2010, the SPLC, as we've talked about today, designated Family Research Council as an anti-LGBTQ hate group and placed it on its so-called hate map. And as I stated in our hearing last regarding the SPLC, there's nothing hateful about the Family Research Council. Family Research Council's a pro-family, pro-life group that promotes the Christian values held by many, many Americans.
▶ 1:59:37But that didn't stop the SPLC from placing FRC on this map. Um what was clearly a politically motivated designation was intended to harm FRC, and it had dire consequences. We mentioned it today. On August 15th, 2012, Floyd Lee Corkins the second entered Family Research Council's headquarters in Washington, D.C. and opened fire.
▶ 2:00:03It was FRC security guard Leo Johnson who heroically uh tackled Corkins to the ground and wrestled the gun out of his hand despite being shot in the arm. And thankfully, no one was killed, and Corkins was sent to prison for a period of time. However, I want to bring attention today to what Corkins told the police, which we happen to have on video right here. And I would call your attention to Corkins' video.
▶ 2:00:34So, how did you this building, this organization? Did you Did you How did you find it? Did you like look up online or how did you know it?
▶ 2:00:40Well, they uh Southern Poverty Law lists uh anti-gay groups. I found them online.
▶ 2:00:48to research what's their website and stuff like that. Okay. I did a little bit of research. And guess where he landed. There's no speculation here, you know? There's no need for interpretation at this. The convicted shooter specifically cited SPLC as his source for finding out about Family Research Council. Speaks for itself. Mr.
▶ 2:01:18Perkins, what was your immediate reaction when you found out that the shooter learned about FRC through this SPLC hate map? Uh, Congressman Harris, I actually anticipated that was the case. In fact, the day after before the FBI acknowledged it, I stood before dozens of TV cameras on the street in front of FRC and said that FRC may not have pulled the trigger, but they inspired the gunman.
▶ 2:01:47I was mocked by the media, but then the testimony, the confession came out. And I I asked at that point for SPLC take Christian groups from this list. They didn't, and the consequences have been in 2017, one of your colleagues, one of my former colleague, Steve Scalise, was shot. He was targeted by the SPLC. And then, of course, last year, Charlie Kirk, who also was targeted by SPLC, was assassinated.
▶ 2:02:15So, there is culpability in knowing that this list, this ideological labeling leads to violence. No doubt. And as of yesterday, when I looked up FRC on SPLC's hate map, your organization is still listed despite this attack in 2012. So, what impact has this continued designation on the or has it had on the organization and your staff?
▶ 2:02:43Well, fortunately, we were large enough that we could sustain SPLC and their blood money that they've been raising to target conservative groups. It has hurt us. We spent $6 million just to enhance our security. We've had It's funny. They're crying now that they're getting their own medicine that Fidelity is not giving money to How about the thousands of conservative groups that were denied donor-driven funds because SPLC's labeling?
▶ 2:03:13Is there fairness in that? I think not. And and I will say, this may seem like a silly question, but following the 2012 attack on your headquarters, did SPLC ever reach out to apologize? Well, I think it's disgraceful that FRC has put such a hate map to begin with in place.
▶ 2:03:37They SPLC does not need to agree with everything that FRC says, does, or stands for. However, their actions of placing this organization on a hate map is clearly an attempt to and socially ostracize a conservative organization, and it can- cannot be allowed again and again. Uh with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:04:01The gentleman yields back. We now go to the gentlelady from Pennsylvania. Is I see next Then the gentlewoman from Washington I'm looking with and seeing you came back. So, we are thrilled to have you with us. The gentlelady is recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Uh it is really a rich irony that Republicans want to argue that Donald Trump or this DOJ care about stopping hate, and that's why they're going after the Southern Poverty Law Center.
▶ 2:04:31Donald Trump just set up an illegal $1.8 billion dollar fund of US taxpayer dollars to pardon convicted insurrectionists who are tied to white supremacists from the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, Nazi supremacists. Oh, yes, and prohibit any action against his violations or his family's violations of tax law. You want to argue that Trump's DOJ is trying to stop hate?
▶ 2:05:01Give me a break. Trump ran his campaigns and these administrations on stoking fear and racism against communities of color and promoting hate. Enacted Muslim bans, kidnapped and disappeared immigrants of all immigration statuses, including US citizens. Forced universities to roll back their diversity, equity, inclusion efforts. Stripped voting rights from black and brown voters, disenfranchising women and rural voters with the Save Act that he wants to pass.
▶ 2:05:32It's all a shameless plan to return America to single-party control by a Republican Party who, unable to win on any sort of policy merits, turns to an old racist playbook that restricts the power of black, brown, and working-class voters and goes after any political foes just to hold on to power. That's what's happening.
▶ 2:05:57For decades, the Southern Poverty Law Center has sued and won jury verdicts against hate groups who conspire and facilitate violence against black and brown people. The center secured a verdict against the planners of the 2017 Charlottesville rally. The same rally that drew participants whom Donald Trump called very fine people on both sides, and yes, I know what he said after that to try and defend it, but the entire rally was organized by white nationalists.
▶ 2:06:26And even after images and videos revealed that these participants put up their arms in Nazi salutes and violently injured counter protesters and cheered on the former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, he stuck by that. SPLC has been winning. That's why Donald Trump wants to target them. That's the problem.
▶ 2:06:47Stephen Miller, angry that SPLC called him out back in 2016 for promoting white nationalism and right-wing extremist ideas, has decided to take revenge with an outrageous indictment that is replete with mistakes of fact and law. It is a complete fabrication that any crime has been committed at all. In the words of one former prosecutor, DOJ falls {quote} egregiously short on alleging a crime.
▶ 2:07:17So, Ms. Wiley, the indictment and this entire hearing is premised on the theory that SPLC somehow manufactured hate by paying confidential informants. So, I want to set the record straight about these informants. Based on what we know from public reporting, did one of the center's informants produce information that successfully prevented a white supremacist group's planned terrorist attacks against a synagogue and gay bar in Las Vegas? Yes.
▶ 2:07:45Um Atomwaffen Division is the name of the extremist group. Uh and I should say that in addition to the work that SPLC did um it that prevented the violence. In fact, it was in 2019. So, it was information it turned on to the Department of Justice during the Trump administration.
▶ 2:08:07So, the suggestion that somehow SPLC only works with an administration based on the party is undermined by this very important fact. And what the FBI found was that this person had already bought the supplies for the attack on a synagogue and a bar where a lot of LGBTQ people frequented.
▶ 2:08:30Thank you. I'm going to go through a series of these, so just a yes or no would be great. Did another informant produce information that led to the arrest of a neo-Nazi individual who sought a national security clearance in Philadelphia Navy Yard? Yes. Did an informant produce information that the center used to tip off the FBI about the 2017 Charlottesville rally? Yes. So, the center was using informants to root out hate and help the FBI prosecute that hate, not manufacture it. Is that correct? Yes.
▶ 2:08:57And I want to ask you you know, there the charges are also premised on the idea that donors were misled and they didn't know what the funds were being used for, but the New York Times publicly reported there's no donor that's come forward as Mr. Raskin said. Um based on your experience, is there anything different about how SPLC is operating than any other nonprofit? Not that I'm aware of. Thank you, Ms. Wiley.
▶ 2:09:21This seems to be a trumped-up case, literally, just to continue to prosecute people who don't agree. I yield back. The gentlelady yields back. We now go to I just want to use the request. Of course. Thank you very much. Um the first one is The Intercept. We knew they were paying informants. SPLC donors rejects Trump DOJ.
▶ 2:09:41Without objection. The second one is a letter from the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights nonprofits together in Florida and 42 civil rights rejecting the criminal charges. And finally, uh unanimous consent to introduce a statement from Trevor Potter, president of Campaign Legal Center, former Republican chair of the Without objection, so ordered. We now go to Mr. Hunt for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:10:10The talking point for the Democrat hive brain today is that uh Jim Crow is alive and well in America and I am sure that some of the SPLC's actions have helped them make this argument. My first question is for you, Ms. Swaine. In the 2024 presidential election, were you required to pay a poll tax before you voted? No. I have another question for you. When you went to vote at the voting locations, were you intimidated in any way with baseball bats, fire hoses, or dogs?
▶ 2:10:39The only thing that intimidated me is that in my state that you go in if you um you have to ask for a Republican ballot or a Democrat ballot. And if you are in a precinct that's predominantly Democrat, I think you would have a lot of fear. Thank you, Ms. Swaine.
▶ 2:10:59Now question, For my Democrat colleagues and everyone on the left screaming Jim Crow 2.0 like I hear ad ad infinitum, let's take a moment to revisit what actual Jim Crow was. Jim Crow was a time when black Americans could not sit in classrooms with white Americans. It was colored only water fountains. It was beatings in the streets. It was lynchings. It was fear. It was public humiliation.
▶ 2:11:25My own father, who grew up in a segregated South in New Orleans, had to walk around to the back of a restaurant just to order a sandwich in the French Quarters of New Orleans because of the color of his skin. That was Jim Crow. And that is precisely why it is so offensive to compare that era of legalized discrimination and racial terror to showing a photo ID in a voting booth.
▶ 2:11:50And it's just as offensive when groups and organizations like these manufacture faux hate and racial tension. Requiring identification to vote is not oppression. It is not segregation. It is not racism. It is a basic standard that applies equally to every single American citizen regardless of what you look like. You need an ID to board a plane. You need an ID to cash a check. You need an ID to buy alcohol.
▶ 2:12:18You need an ID to enter these very federal buildings. And by the way, attaining an ID in this country is an extremely low bar. But somehow showing an ID to vote in America is now considered to be Jim Crow 2.0. This is not about civil rights. This is about political theater. And the Democrat Party survives on manufacturing grievance. Democrats invoke the pain of the past because they have nothing to offer for the present.
▶ 2:12:49They don't want an honest debate. They don't They want emotional manipulation. They want outrage. They want division. As evidenced by our discussion in this very hearing today. They want Americans to fight each other because chaos is politically useful to them. Words like and white supremacy and Jim Crow 2.0. For the purposes of elucidating my colleagues on on the other side of aisle, let's take a hard look at what real Jim Crow was.
▶ 2:13:20Check out this one behind me. You see, is Jim Crow. This is what Democrats call Jim Crow. Next slide, please. See See See is Jim Crow. For whatever reason, this is what Democrats call Jim Crow. Next slide, please. is Jim Crow.
▶ 2:13:50is what Democrats call Jim Crow. I know that some of these images can seem to be very jarring to many of us that haven't experienced that over the course of the past 40 years of my lifetime. I never saw these things. I never experienced them personally. But I have family members who have and who did. And that's why it is extraordinarily important for us to be very, very careful with what we compare to Jim Crow because this country has come a very, very long way.
▶ 2:14:21I keep saying this over and over and over and over again till I am blue in the face. I represent a white majority district along with three of my other black colleagues here in Congress. And you know what? Nobody cares about what we look like. We are being judged not by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character because we've come a long way from this. I don't want to go back to that. In fact, I want to continue on the path that America has set forth in the name of Jesus Christ.
▶ 2:14:51And I want to I want to let people know that we don't need to be angry. We don't need to be divided. We want equality for everyone. Let me be crystal clear. This is not 1960 anymore. It's 2026. And the fact that that groups like these are willing to stroke the flames of hate by funding the KKK is absurd. With that, I yield back the remainder of my time. Thank you for being here.
▶ 2:15:21Thank you. The gentleman yields back. We now go to the gentlewoman from Pennsylvania, Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As we heard earlier, in July 1983, the Ku Klux Klan firebombed the Southern Poverty Law Center's offices in Montgomery, Alabama.
▶ 2:15:38The Klan carried out its violent attack because the SPLC had stood up against it and has continued to stand up against hate in the following decades, whether it's racial and religious hate, hatred of immigrants, or the LGBTQ community. This melted clock, which was frozen in time by the KKK firebombing, still hangs in SPLC's headquarters as a reminder of the very real dangers of defending American civil liberties from hate.
▶ 2:16:09So, how grotesque is it, given that history, that the majority has chosen to frame this hearing as an accusation that the Southern Poverty Law Center itself is in the business of manufacturing hate? But, with the increasing shamelessness of the Trump administration and its congressional allies, none of us should be surprised that they are desperately trying to manufacture a reason to attack one of the organizations standing up to their assault on American civil rights.
▶ 2:16:39They're trying to turn back the clock and drag America backwards into some of the darkest days of our past. What has changed is not the Southern Poverty Law Center, but the way that this administration, with its embrace of white nationalist rhetoric and groups, has decided to rewrite facts and history. In the past year, we've seen pardons of Proud Boys and Oath Keepers who orchestrated the violent January 6th attack.
▶ 2:17:04The DOJ hiding from the public government research confirming that right-wing extremism poses the biggest domestic terrorism threat to our nation. The White House issuing NSPM 7, a directive that the Department of Justice and IRS target left-leaning groups that the White House has declared, without evidence, are a threat to our national security.
▶ 2:17:26And members of the administration making repeated statements that they intend to destroy nonprofit groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center that are a threat to their extremist agenda. This White House has engaged in a concerted attack on the pillars of civil society that would ordinarily hold it accountable, going after law firms, the courts, legacy media, universities, organized religion, and even the Pope.
▶ 2:17:51We can all see a corrupt DOJ leveraging its power to attack the president's perceived enemies and protect his allies, prosecuting those who've tried to hold the administration accountable, stealing taxpayer dollars to create a $1.8 billion slush fund to make payoffs to Trump loyalists who've been convicted of serious crimes, and giving Trump and his family a gold-plated get-out-of-jail-free card with the settlement agreement that the president's lawyer just signed.
▶ 2:18:20The Department of Justice's blatantly political prosecution and this committee's attacks against the Southern Poverty Law Center signal the revival of an old authoritarian playbook to vilify and discredit those working to combat hate and protect people from oppression. And it's part of this administration's whole-of-government attempt to shut down opposition to its lawless behavior.
▶ 2:18:43This administration and its MAGA allies are trying to rewrite facts and history just as they've tried to whitewash the violent January 6th assault on our capital and our Constitution, but facts have a way of being sticky. They get in the way of lies. Americans have always sought to bend the arc of history towards justice, to hold those in power accountable, and to spur our country towards a more inclusive and perfect union. And we're not going to stop now.
▶ 2:19:10We are not going to allow extremists and charlatans to turn back the clock and take our civil rights and repression and put them asunder with hate. So, Ms. Wiley, the DOJ's indictment targets SPLC itself rather than individuals. Is the administration's goal to take out the organization and why? Well, I certainly can't speak for the administration.
▶ 2:19:35I think that what is so concerning to us as a civil rights community is that the Southern Poverty Law Center has been attacked because it does work to ensure that black voters can vote, because it does work to show and ensure that fair maps are drawn for places like Alabama and Louisiana where yes, because we still have racial segregation in this country, black people have to be packed or cracked to take away the opportunity for them to decide
▶ 2:20:05who can represent them that will actually be accountable to them. These are incredibly important for civil rights, but it's also incredibly important for people's ability to have voice and power including to dissent and disagree with the policies of this Do you think that Turning Point USA might have been targeted because it published emails by Steven Miller that were expressing white nationalist
▶ 2:20:31lady may answer briefly. Possibly, yes. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you. I now recognize myself. Ms. Wiley, would you agree with the statement that Charlie Kirk was a dangerous extremist? I can't answer the question that way. I can certainly say that No, no.
▶ 2:20:58statements that I am aware of that Mr. Kirk made were ones that I would consider to be dangerous. And would those be the ones that he took directly from the Bible repeatedly? I'm referring to the ones that he made about black women and black communities, the stereotyping that stereotyped whole group of people.
▶ 2:21:20So, you would put him on a a list of dangerous people that should as the Southern Poverty I I don't I don't designate groups. I'm just
▶ 2:21:30Well, you've had opinions on everything the Democrats asked for. I just thought you might have an opinion on that.
▶ 2:21:34I shared my opinion about some of the things I heard he said, yes.
▶ 2:21:37Okay. Uh would you agree that a group could be have a great mission, do a lot of good things, but also uh commit crimes? Well, I mean, anything is possible. I think what we're talking about today is a specific organization. It's a specific organization we're talking about though, which is Southern Poverty Law Center. So, your your your your opinion is they can't commit crimes cuz they do good?
▶ 2:22:05My opinion is that we see a prosecution where we know that the Southern Poverty Law Center offered evidence and is asking for accountability about whether that exculpatory evidence was shown to a grand jury. That should concern all Americans. Mr. O'Neal, I'll ask you essentially the same question. would you say that Southern Poverty Law Center does some good work at least historically? Yes.
▶ 2:22:31And having looked at the evidence, would you say that it appears to be overwhelmingly evidence of a criminal activity? Uh I would direct audiences to page 10 of the indictment, uh where there's a direct quote from an employee saying, I certify that I am the sole owner of the above-named proprietorship. This is his statement to a bank in December of 2016.
▶ 2:22:58And then the statement uh from then Chief Executive Officer of the SPLC, Margaret Huang, who said that the accounts below listed were opened for the benefit of the Southern Poverty Law Center operations and operated under the center's authority. Okay. So, what you have is actual evidence of bank fraud. I'd say it's black and white. Okay. So long as the quotes from the indictment are accurate, I have not seen the
▶ 2:23:23will go to jail if those uh if those if it turns out that you know, that in fact it was true, but they've indicted them. So, you know, both sides are playing high risk, but it appears as though the evidence is M- Ms. Wally, did you ever hear of the Jewish Defense League? Are you familiar with them? I I'm not familiar with them. Okay. Anyone else familiar with them? You are. Mr. O'Neal, you're familiar with them.
▶ 2:23:51They go back to the days of New York City and going after basically white supremacist groups, anti-Semitic groups. Yes. Would it surprise you to know that Irv Rubin and Earl Kruger both went to prison for attempting to blow up my office in 2001? I was not aware of this, but it wouldn't surprise me. Uh Earl Kruger later died in prison.
▶ 2:24:16uh Earl Earl died or Irv died before being tried, but the other was convicted and eventually actually confessed. So
▶ 2:24:27to hear that.
▶ 2:24:28Here's Here's a group you know of. They have a history of fighting anti-Semitism, something that's been mentioned on the other side, and that obviously still exists in this country as does racism. So you can be a good group, and yet you can have criminal activity and activity that flies in the face of what you say you stand for. Ms. Wiley, I asked you that question for a reason. Dr.
▶ 2:24:56Swan here has in fact a history of being falsely accused, a history of being gone after. Mr. Perkins has given these examples. The other side has spent a lot of time here today trying to tell us that it's that it's all motivated because somehow we're persecuting people in this administration. Do you have any evidence, not anecdotally, that oh, they picked them?
▶ 2:25:24Do you have any evidence that in fact Southern Poverty did not in fact commit these crimes? Do you have any firsthand evidence of that? Yes or no, please. Well, the Southern Poverty Law Center has a motion before the court right now, which actually says that the Department of Justice admitted that they knew that the banks knew Southern Poverty Law Center only accounts. That is evidence in the public record that will be tried in court.
▶ 2:25:54look forward to that in trial and I want to thank all the witnesses today for bringing out the fact that we should in fact this committee should be looking at these not for profits and whether in fact they have deviated from their mission. And with that we have you have another gentleman.
▶ 2:26:11couple of you see yet this is Gentleman's recognized. Thank you kindly Mr. Chairman. The Guardian US lawmakers say DOJ rushed Southern Poverty Law Center indictment citing whistleblowers. Without objection. Without objection. House Judiciary Democrats letter read the targeting of Southern Poverty Law to Deputy Attorney General Akashi Singh.
▶ 2:26:30Without objection. Um and that's it for Thank you. We go now go to the lady from general lady from Georgia for 5 minutes. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you for our witnesses being here today. Um my father was the president of the Illinois chapter of the NAACP for many many years. As a child I learned how to fight for my rights before I even learned how to I marched in protest, sat in meetings and helped to organize.
▶ 2:27:00I want everyone in this room to understand what is happening right now. The Republican Party has launched an all-out assault against civil rights organizations founded to ensure the end of Jim Crow.
▶ 2:27:15But that's just one part of this Three weeks ago the Supreme Court gutted Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act in Louisiana versus Calais saying that and I'm going to quote race neutral considerations that it could employ race neutral considerations in quote in redistricting.
▶ 2:27:35And within days Southern legislatures, they rushed to wipe out black representation in Tennessee caught an emergency session to repeal its own law against mid-decade redistricting. It then splintered Memphis, a city that is 60% black, into three districts to dilute the voices of the black voters there.
▶ 2:27:59The state's black legislators protested and in response, the speaker stripped every single one of them of their committee Tennessee is not alone in silencing black voices. Alabama moved to reinstate maps a court previously struck down for intentional racial discrimination. Florida passed new racially gerrymandered maps and we're waiting in my home state of Georgia to see what happens with us on June 17th.
▶ 2:28:30Ms. Wiley, and you can just answer yes or no. Have you ever seen five states move to dismantle black representation in Congress in such a very rapid short And while this administration demands attacks on black Americans' voices with phone calls to governors, it is fighting hard for the right-wing extremist groups who stormed the Capitol on January 6th.
▶ 2:29:00Groups whose members are not all white supremacists, but doesn't seem to mind white supremacists. Trump's DOJ has given $1.8 billion of a slush fund taken from taxpayers to pay off the 1,600 right-wing rioters who tried to steal the election for him. That's $1 million for each rioter with $100 million left over. Ms.
▶ 2:29:27Wiley, what message does this send to the country that this administration is prosecuting the organization that takes down white supremacists while stealing taxpayer money to give to white I wish I had a word and I don't have a word for that except to say that the American public should be outraged.
▶ 2:29:56Southern states are tripping over themselves to eliminate black representation in Congress. The president is doling out reparations to white supremacists. And DOJ has indicted the Southern Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization built to defend the rights of Americans on charges so flimsy that it would make Bull Connor and George Wallace blush.
▶ 2:30:25Americans deserve a voice in our democracy, representation of their interests, and should not have to fight for their basic civil rights again and again and again. Race should not be a factor.
▶ 2:30:39This is an attempt to roll back the progress made through the civil rights movement and strip black Americans of their voice in public life using the same tactics as Southern segregationist states following the death of reconstruction for the very same goal. I am a child of the civil rights We have seen this before.
▶ 2:31:06If we needed a reminder or a wake-up call that Jim Crow is alive and evolved these legislatures made sure that we got the notice. Ms. Wiley, would you like to expand on any previous questions or statements that you weren't able to complete?
▶ 2:31:26I just want to remind us that the F- federal agencies, FBI, DEA, AFT, spent over $548 [clears throat] for a reason. Because they thought it was going to help them keep people safe. We're talking about this attack on SPLC at a time when we're are facing an administration that cut funds to prevent gun violence. That cut funds to track where and how we might have violent white supremacist neo-Nazi attacks.
▶ 2:31:56That cut funds that was going to support public safety. All at a time when we've seen a White House directing Department of Justice about who it wants to prosecute. And as someone used to work for the Department of Justice, that is unheard of. Thank you, and I yield. Gentlelady yields back. The gentleman from Wisconsin is recognized. Yeah, just a a couple of comments later.
▶ 2:32:20First of all, I'd like to thank Congressman Hunt for his pictures up here um showing what it was like in the days in which the Democrat Party just rode roughshod over the South. I'd like to point out that the criticisms of Stephen Miller, to believe I to this day, are because the role he took in exposing the Duke lacrosse player hoax in which three people almost were sent to prison for life.
▶ 2:32:49And Steve had the bravery to stand up to the politically correct. And eventually those three people were found innocent after going through absolute hell. I also want to point out a book by Christopher Rufo called uh America's Cultural Revolution, How the Radical Left Conquered Everything.
▶ 2:33:08And in that book, he clearly describes how a goal of the hardcore left, I think some members of this committee are are members of the hardcore left, uh the degree to which they try to racialize everything. Uh not just racialize black Americans, but Hispanic, Asian Americans, everything. That their ultimate goal is the end of the United States as as we have it break down. And it should be mandatory reading.
▶ 2:33:34And I think when you talk about Joe Biden screaming about white supremacy all the time, I think a lot of us must wonder what in the world is he talking about. But what he's talking about is he's trying to divide America on racial lines, which is really just a a horrible thing. And finally, I don't have time to look into it. I I know if you Google Ann Coulter and Proud Boys, and Ann Coulter is a many times New York Times bestseller.
▶ 2:34:00Uh, you may get a a different version of the narrative we'd had today on uh on the Proud Boys. Okay, now we're going to start off with Mr. O'Neal. given the SPLC's long documented pattern of partisan activism, financial misconduct, and by the way, the financial misconduct by itself is enough that nobody should ever be citing them for anything.
▶ 2:34:24And its recent federal indictment for secretly funneling millions of dollars to individuals tied to extremist groups, how do you explain the continued willingness of major press outlets to cite the SPLC as an authoritative source?
▶ 2:34:41And by the way, I think 12 years ago, 13 years ago, any reasonably well um educated American would have known the SPLC was just a a a disgusting made-up group. Uh, but but and and I would think that any uh newspaper, magazine, online magazine that cites them should be considered totally discredited. Anybody who's done it the last 12 years. But how how do you, Mr.
▶ 2:35:09O'Neal, uh explain why so-called major press outlets, at one time prestigious outlets, still cite SPLC as an authoritative source. I think it's because the SPLC positions itself as a weapon of the left by demonizing the sorts of conservatives that many in the mainstream left want to render irrelevant, and therefore it is a weapon, a reputational weapon
▶ 2:35:40against people who are inconvenient for the left's narrative. Go ahead, Mr. Perkins. Well, they leverage their relationship with government to be able to do that with the media, and then they leverage the relationship with the government with the corporations, and that's how they were able to get the corporations to de-bank and de-platform conservatives because of that relationship. But I go back to the illustration of the hub. They're at the center of it, but they're not alone.
▶ 2:36:11I would also say that they leverage their relationship with universities, especially law schools, because a lot of their the law students will go and intern with the Southern Poverty Law Uh very good. It's just still bugs me that they go after Stephen Miller for finding those three LaCrosse guys, isn't it? Doesn't it just bug you? And you know that's what it's all about. Um we'll we'll go to Tony Perkins. Your organization's falsely been labeled a hate group.
▶ 2:36:39I mean, to me you're about the most wholesome organization in the country, uh by SPLC for holding mainstream pro-life pro-family positions. Man, they hate those pro-lifers. Given that uh that this designation was cited by the perpetrator of the 2012 attack, how do you assess the responsibility of these sort of Well, again, we warned them to take down that label, and we've had subsequent attacks on people who have been labeled by them, including the latest Charlie Kirk who was assassinated.
▶ 2:37:08There is culpability here. And and I think that we need to look at the going back to that government leverage that they've been using, they should never have a relationship with a government entity Right. They just hate Christianity, don't they? Just hate it. Dr. Swain, do you want to comment on that? Would you like to comment? Time Oh, I'm sorry. Time of the gentleman has expired.
▶ 2:37:37The chair now recognizes the gentlewoman from Carolina, North Carolina. Thank you so much, uh Mr. Chairman. Uh just reminding people that many of the roots of anti-racism and civil rights in the South came from the churches, very Christian people.
▶ 2:37:56I suppose I need to remind some members of this committee of the long and blood-soaked history of the Ku Klux Klan in North Carolina, maybe even some of our witnesses. During Reconstruction, the Klan lynched and assassinated countless black and white leaders who opposed them.
▶ 2:38:18In the '60s, the Klan grew to more than 10,000 members in North Carolina, more than any other Southern state combined. And they earned the nickname in North Carolina earned the nickname Clansville, Klan members in North Carolina carried out coordinated terror campaigns culminating in the 1979 Greensboro Massacre, where the Klan and their neo-Nazi allies shot and killed
▶ 2:38:49five people who were protesting against But the story doesn't end there. Only because of the bravery of those who fought back against the Klan, like so many of our Christian ministers and the Southern Poverty Law Center did we see some In the 1980s, the Southern Poverty Law Center launched Klanwatch to monitor,
▶ 2:39:19track, and expose the activities of the In 1987, the Southern Poverty Law Center won a groundbreaking lawsuit securing $7 million in a judgment against the United Klans of America after their members lynched 19-year-old student Michael Donald in Mobile 6 years earlier, and I know that Mr. Johnson talked about that.
▶ 2:39:47the judgment bankrupt the United Klan of This verdict greatly weakened the Klan and sent them scurrying underground, though of course we're seeing many of them today.
▶ 2:40:02But it didn't stamp out the last rotten remnants of the Klan throughout the And those remnants have been planting seeds that have been cultivated by this That's why the continued work of the Southern Poverty Law Center and its allies is so essential. Now, Ms.
▶ 2:40:28Wiley, is paying for informants to disrupt a violent white supremacist organization like the Klan the same thing as supporting these No, and that's why I was citing the FBI's own use of informants. And um actually was there a book written about an undercover agent by an undercover agent who infiltrated the Klan like maybe called Black Klansman? Could you tell us about that?
▶ 2:40:57I haven't read the book, but it's a great movie. It's a great movie. Um, so given that the SPLC's incredibly successful history of fighting the clan and other extremist groups, do you think that the people who have been consistently donating to the SPLC were surprised that the SPLC was paying informants to monitor, report, and expose the violent activities?
▶ 2:41:23Well, the only things we've heard in public sphere is donors saying that the SPLC did what they had hoped donors would do. And we know from the public record that they're continuing to try to give money to the SPLC to continue its work. I kind of hope this lawsuit, this specious lawsuit, results in more contributions to the SPLC. Might be a silver lining to the lawsuit and this ridiculous hearing.
▶ 2:41:53Even the amateur amateur hour Trump lackeys at DOJ know that this is a specious lawsuit. They don't believe these cynical They know it's wrong. The SPLC is not funding the KKK or far-right groups. The SPLC is taking them down.
▶ 2:42:19But at the same time the president of the United States is trying to use taxpayer money to fund people who have assaulted police and tried to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. We have to speak truth. We have got to tell the American people what is going on. And that might be the only good thing that comes out of this ridiculous hearing. Thank you, and I yield back.
▶ 2:42:47I'm not sure Miss I'm not sure Leo thinks the hearing is ridiculous, but I actually I'm I'm pretty sure he thinks it doesn't. Um The gentlelady
▶ 2:42:56from Georgia is recognized. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. I have um a unanimous consent request. I request unanimous consent to enter into the record an article from April 15th, 2026, titled Justice Department moves to toss seditious conspiracy convictions of Oath Keepers and Proud Boys. Objection. And the second one I have is several Tennessee House Democrats stripped from committees after last week's special session. Objection.
▶ 2:43:26Thank you. The gentleman from New Jersey's recognized. Thank you, Chairman. I'm going to take the gentle lady from North Carolina's advice and get to what I believe is the truth here. And I'm going to get a little historic on you. Anybody ever hear of Machiavelli? Remember that when you learned that in school? You know, when you can debate the exact wording of what it means, you can debate the exact origin, but the meaning is basic and it's simple, and it's as old as politics itself.
▶ 2:43:51And if you believe, according to Machiavelli, that your cause is important enough, that it's righteous enough, that you want to obtain certain goals, that it's urgent enough, there are no rules, no morals, and no ethics. Truth becomes flexible, and there are no standards anymore. And people start telling themselves that anything is acceptable if they can win, if the outcome is important enough to them. This is about winning. This is about the left wing.
▶ 2:44:19I'm sorry, but it's about the left wing Democratic Party wanting to win and using the SPLC, using each other as tools to make sure that they win elections and put out And we have to ask, when did it become part of the philosophy? Well, in the last administration, we remember, we saw a lot of things.
▶ 2:44:38An FBI of lies, an FBI of untruths, an FBI of injustice, an FBI that Joe Biden was willing to rely on politically tainted information, some of which came from the SPLC. Bad information. We know now that it was wrong, that it wasn't true at multiple levels. Garland's hold the AG told that us that the greatest threat facing the entire country was domestic violent extremists.
▶ 2:45:05But the real threat, the great threat, a great threat to freedom was his own Department of Justice and his own FBI back then. It was scary. If you had a different opinion, guess what folks? And I'm not trying to address this You miss Wylie, I have a right to be conservative. I have a right to a different viewpoint, but there's not one human being up here that supports the Ku Klux Klan. None of us like it. I bet you there's nobody in this whole damn room that supports the Ku Klux Klan.
▶ 2:45:36Catholics saw the clearest example of this. It was hateful. It was hurtful. They went after Roman Catholic churches. They were going to have undercover agents. Thank God we found the information. It would have been going on. They went after Hindus in my own state of New Jersey. Good, faithful, peaceful, loving people. The FBI went in with guns drawn from bad information that they got. SPLC supplied a lot of this. The FBI painted them as domestic terrorists.
▶ 2:46:04The same thing with parents in school board meetings that were worried about the stuff their own biological children were be being taught to them. It is wrong. Catholics aren't extremists. Concerned parents aren't extremists. Hindus aren't extremists. But we've seen the pattern before over and over again. We saw it in the abuse of FISA. We saw it when by the way, tax dollars, questionable sources, FBI, Igor Danchenko. Remember that?
▶ 2:46:30Hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to him for bad information. We also got bad information from the Southern Poverty Law Center. All for politics to go after Republicans. That's the elephant in the room. That's what people don't want to talk about, but that's the real deal. If you were conservative and no, Charlie Kirk was not a terrorist. If you just sat and listened to what he said, you might not agree with it. He was just a very faithful conservative person. It's his right.
▶ 2:47:02And now, the worst of all of this is we find the Southern Poverty Law Center is just one more tool. I think it started out good. I think they wanted to do good things. I think there are still people in there that want to do good things, but it's been used in a way that is perverse and awful to get a political goals of a political party accomplished. Machiavellian through and through. It's pretty damn amazing.
▶ 2:47:29People donated money believing they were helping good causes, helping vulnerable people, and in the beginning they were. Nobody wants racism. Nobody up here in this room wants racism. Nobody wants to hurt anybody. Nobody wants to hate anybody. But, the Southern Poverty Law Center and the work that they've done in recent times has actually caused more hate, more hurt, and more problems. They gave money to the KKK.
▶ 2:47:56I don't give a how how you approach it, what you say about it, it's a bad thing. I just got some real quick questions cuz I know I'm running out of time. Mr. Perkins, should the Southern Poverty Law Center have had such a high level of influence in federal agencies? No. No. Mr. O'Neal. No. In fact, with the FBI memo, uh the SPLC has suggested that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is itself a hateful
▶ 2:48:24I'm a Roman Catholic. I resent that, Ms. I'm not a hateful person. I would never hurt anybody. I resent that. And so do a lot of Catholics, and so do a lot of people of faith. They have a right to
▶ 2:48:38Mr. Chairman, if we're going to run over time, can we talk about the president's attack on the Pope? Is that part of your presentation? and I'm the gentleman from New Jersey controls the time. Gentleman from North Carolina has his last question. I'm losing my time here, but how does an organization maintain credibility as an authority on extremism as in if there's serious concerns being raised about its own extremism, its own judgment, and its own activities? Real quick, Mr. O'Neal, Mr. Perkins. And Miss Dr. Swain, how do you go?
▶ 2:49:08I can say that they did by 2009 they had already deviated and started targeting conservatives and I would say that they were so effective at eliminating hate groups that they had to find new people to label, new organizations. That's the
▶ 2:49:26You're right. Go back to your original
▶ 2:49:28Mr. Perkins, do you see UC's? Okay. Do you see them like this? Mr. Chairman, point of order, just so we're clear, that was 1 minute over as we move into Ms. Balint's time.
▶ 2:49:35very lenient with the time. I just want to make sure we're we're doing it equally. That's all. Equal rights. That's all. Moving to I see UC's from Mr. Van Drew, UC's from the gentleman from Pennsylvania, and then we're actually going to go vote, and then we will come back once votes are completed. Gentleman from New Jersey, UC.
▶ 2:49:50I have a UC from Moms for Liberty, uh, and it is entitled the Justice Department announced indictment against Southern Poverty Law Center, a UC from Tyler O'Neil, uh, on 2026 Democrats backpedal themselves by defending SPLC, another one from Mr. O'Neil, however bad you think Biden's DOJ was, new documents show it was even worse. Thank you, Chairman. Gentleman from New Jersey back to the gentleman from Pennsylvania is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:50:16I have a unanimous consent request to introduce an article from The Hill dated September 17th, 2025, DOJ quietly removed studies showing right-wing attacks outpace those by the left. Objection. Uh, an article from The Washington Post, November 13th, 2019, leaked Stephen Miller email showed Trump's point man on immigration promoted white nationalism, SPLC Dodd objection.
▶ 2:50:41Uh White House issued the National Security Presidential Memorandum 7 in September 2025. Dodd objection. And the an article from the New Republic, April 2026, the Justice Department sides with the Ku Klux Klan. Dodd objection. And I I have two here, massacre at Pittsburgh synagogue tied to anti-refugee sentiment. And grand Dodd objection. Buffalo shooter's manifesto promotes great replacement theory anti-Semitism. Dodd objection. Can I go?
▶ 2:51:11Uh the committee will be in recess for a short period of time. I The reason we have to leave now is I do know that there's one 15-minute vote and then the the the next five votes I think are two-minute votes. I don't want to I don't want to miss that. Um so we're going to we're going to recess. Uh there's some lunch for you in the back uh and uh then we'll be back as quick as we can. Committee stands in recess.
▶ 4:01:24Committee will come to order. The gentle lady from the great state of California is recognized for 5 minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I previously asked in this committee why the DOJ took down the NIJ's journal dedicated to domestic radicalization, violent extremism, and terrorism.
▶ 4:01:45In that journal, the DOJ research found that since 1990, far-right extremists have committed far more ideologically motivated homicides than far-left or radical Islamist extremists. And in spite [snorts] of those facts, we held two hearings in this committee committed to Islamophobia, and not a week later, yet another act of deadly violence from the right occurred at a mosque in my home state.
▶ 4:02:12So, before I begin, I'd like to respectfully ask our chairman, Mr. Chairman, will you commit to holding a hearing on the white nationalists who violently shot at the mosque this week in San Diego? Uh we will take that under consideration. We have a number of hearings scheduled and markups scheduled coming up here in the next week. We're looking to do something on ActBlue. We're looking to get the CEO
▶ 4:02:36Mr. Chairman, I'm going to reclaim my time. But he wouldn't he wouldn't agree to come yet, so we're working on
▶ 4:02:42from you, um and hope that that long thing turns into a yes. Um but now I would like to talk about an organization which is and has been historically dedicated to stopping violence, the Southern Poverty Law Center, whose informant program has helped stop real acts of violence in this country. SPLC shared intelligence gathered from informants directly with law enforcement agencies, including the FBI and DOJ.
▶ 4:03:09That information helped stop a neo-Nazi from obtaining a security clearance and helped thwart a planned terrorist attack targeting a synagogue and an LGBTQ bar in Las Vegas. So, Mr. Tyler, if an organization helped stop a bomb attack, is that good or bad? Well, of course it's good.
▶ 4:03:30Okay, thank you. No, cuz I don't have a lot of time. Mr. Tyler, do you believe that law enforcement should should ignore credible intelligence about violent extremist threats? Yes or no? Okay, And the witness's name is Mr. O'Neal. Oh, I apologize.
▶ 4:03:46Thank you. Because from where I sit, those answers sound like public safety work. Yet Republicans applauded when Kash Patel severed the FBI's information sharing relationship with SPLC. And I cannot find a single instance where SPLC's cooperation with law enforcement made Americans last safe less safe.
▶ 4:04:09Maybe the real issue is simply SPLC has been effective at exposing white supremacists and extremist organizations for decades, organizations that Republicans either condone or deny exist at all. SPLC was founded during the Civil Rights Movement to fight racial terror and organized hate in the South, and for over 50 years it has sued violent white supremacist organizations, monitored extremist groups, protected voting rights, and defended vulnerable communities.
▶ 4:04:39SPLC bankrupted factions of the KKK and fought racial intimidation campaigns. And recently they exposed abusive living conditions in juvenile detention centers and filed suit against school districts that failed to provide individualized services and reasonable accommodations for disabled students. How is that bad? And let's talk about transparency for a moment.
▶ 4:05:03Republicans are accusing SPLC of wrongdoing because it did not publicly disclose donor-by-donor payout maps tied to confidential informants. But nonprofits do not operate that way. Are Turning Point USA or Moms for Liberty publishing donor-by-donor payout audits? Cuz I can't seem to find them. And somehow Republicans want a completely different standard applied here.
▶ 4:05:28And the hypocrisy becomes even more obvious when you look at acting Attorney General Todd Blanche. Mr. Blanche publicly attacked SPLC over its confidential informant program while refusing to rule out taxpayer-funded payouts to January 6 rioters, including individuals convicted of assaulting police officers.
▶ 4:05:50So, why is secrecy suddenly unacceptable when a civil rights organization uses confidential informants to stop violent extremism, but perfectly acceptable when this administration creates a $1.8 billion taxpayer-funded white reparations slush fund? Why are Republicans attacking SPLC while refusing to provide transparency about who could receive taxpayer-funded payouts tied to January 6 insurrectionists?
▶ 4:06:18This hearing has nothing to do with oversight and nothing to do with public safety. It is about intimidating organizations that challenge white supremacy, defend civil rights, and refuse to bend the knee to this administration. And Mr. Chair, as you know me, I have some You seek
▶ 4:06:36And here we go, my friend. The gentle lady is recognized for unanimous consent
▶ 4:06:41Thank you. The first one is the acting Attorney General is facing bipartisan criticism about the DOJ's so-called anti-weaponization fund, 5/19/26 I ask unanimous consent.
▶ 4:06:54Without Without objection. What we know about the San Diego mosque shooting victims, suspects, possible motive, and Without objection. Multiple Republicans in Congress post openly anti-Muslim Without objection. The second wave return of the militias. Without Pentagon tightens ban on supremacist activity after years of denying problem. Without objection.
▶ 4:07:20SPLC DOJ lawsuit a wake-up call to end Mississippi school-to-prison pipeline. Without objection. SPLC report reveals the high price of Florida's incarceration of black children. Without objection. Fifth Circuit rules against unlawful debt collections targeting Hurricane Katrina
▶ 4:07:39Without objection. SPLC report overcoming the unprecedented southern voters battle against voter suppression, intimidation, and a virus. Without objection. SPLC announces new campaign poverty is not a line during poverty awareness month. Okay, without objection. How the threat of political violence is transforming America. Okay, without objection.
▶ 4:08:02and the last one, right-wing extremist violence is more frequent and deadly than left-wing violence. Without objection. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I am looking forward to getting additional information on when that possible hearing is.
▶ 4:08:14just for the record, Republicans aren't upset when the Southern Poverty Law Center labels racist organizations racist. We're upset when they label non-racist organizations, conservative organizations racist, and we're upset when they pay racist. That's why we're having the hearing. The gentleman from South The gentle lady is recognized and the gentleman from South Carolina. Thank you.
▶ 4:08:35Uh the 11-count indictment of the Southern Poverty Law Center over wire fraud, false statements, and conspiracy to commit money laundering states that between 2014 and 2023, the SPLC covertly funneled more than $3 million in donated funds to individuals who were associated with several violent extremist groups including the KKK, the National Socialist Movement, and the National Socialist Party of America.
▶ 4:08:59Because the SPLC was instigating rather than infiltrating these hate groups, donor money was seemingly being used to create and prop up the very hate that SPLC claimed to be fighting against. More hate means more money for the SPLC, and this led to a transformation of this corrupt and divisive group moving towards a creator of hate within America.
▶ 4:09:23There is a fundamental difference between federal law enforcement using paid informants and a nonprofit organization lying to financial institutions to compensate people to foment hate, racism, and The SPLC's field sources were doing much more than gathering information.
▶ 4:09:42For example, the indictment notes that one field source, quote, made racist postings under the supervision of the SPLC and helped coordinate transportation to the Charlottesville event for several attendees, end quote. Mr. O'Neal, do you believe that SPLC's conduct crossed the line from infiltrator to instigator? Yes, based on the information in the indictment.
▶ 4:10:08So, in response to the indictment, the SP We also found out that the the SPLC was sharing information with law enforcement. I've got concerns about that because of the how biased the SPLC obviously is, and the information that they were sharing with law enforcement was also biased. I think that you can tell that by the questioning or at least the the accusations that were just recently made and even some of the articles that were identified by the the woman from California.
▶ 4:10:36Uh, the the articles themselves even accusing the the folks this week of the horrible act at the mosque out in San Diego. Uh, their own writings defy and and disagree with what she was alleging over there. Individuals on the right and left have long recognized that the SPLC is no longer the group that it was founded to be. Mr. O'Neal, shouldn't we be concerned that our government and law enforcement are accepting information from knowingly biased sources?
▶ 4:11:06Yes, we should be concerned that they were receiving information specifically from a group that systematically demonizes concerned parents, conservative Christian groups, and even groups of LGBT people who oppose the sexualization of children. So, if the SPLC were instigating criminal action and then reporting such information to law enforcement, would that raise not would that not raise even more legally dubious conflicts, Mr. Perkins?
▶ 4:11:36It would. SPLC was kind of it was like they were hiring an arsonist to create a fire, then they were calling the fire department and ratting out the arsonist that they hired. Uh Or accusing someone else or accusing someone else of setting the fire.
▶ 4:11:52Well, but they also wanted to get citizen of the year award by calling in and turning in the arsonist that they paid. Uh this is a it's a conspiracy that goes way beyond just money. Th- This was about trying to demonize, silence, and completely eliminate any opposition to the left when it came to their agenda. And that's what's played out, I think, today with the the questioning in your testimony.
▶ 4:12:18But now we're finding out that the SPLC was not only engaged in this kind of behavior, but we have schools across the country that have included SPLC information in their curriculum. Dr. Swain, what are the concerns that you have in that regard?
▶ 4:12:33I have concerns that the SPLC's program teaching tolerance is really intolerant, and many of the public and private schools use their materials, and because they have so many so much so many resources, uh they are able to get into the schools in a way that I think is very dangerous because they're all about indoctrination a very progressive agenda, and and so that is my concern.
▶ 4:13:03Okay. I appreciate that. Uh I believe that this program that it's the Learning for Justice is the community education program that I am referring to. Mr. O'Neal, do you have concerns about that program as well? Yes. So, it's very telling in my mind that the program that was long known as Teaching Tolerance, apparently the SPLC has become too woke for tolerance, so they changed the name to nix the tolerance and just go with Learning for Justice. Okay. All right, interesting.
▶ 4:13:33Well, I'm just about out of time. I also have a unanimous consent.
▶ 4:13:37The gentle lady is recognized. This is an article from April 30th, 2026 from LifeSiteNews. The both sides political violence narrative completely debunked, they cooked the books. An example being that all claims of anti-Semitism, they claim are right-wing or conservative attacks when we know that is absolutely not the case. They do not count what happened on 9/11.
▶ 4:13:58Uh and there are many other examples in this particular where they have absolutely cooked the books that they claimed left-wing violence is right-wing when we know that that isn't true. So, they're even lying about that as well. So, thank you and I yield back. Objection. Uh the gentle lady also yields back. Uh the chair now recognizes the gentle lady from Vermont. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This president and his supporters in Congress want to turn the clock back.
▶ 4:14:26They're trying to undo the progress of the civil rights movement. That's what this is all about. This is about white nationalism and a direct attack on black Americans in this country, and it comes from the very top. That's why we need groups like SPLC because the president is systematically taking us back to the darkest chapters of American history.
▶ 4:14:52Rather than face accountability from the voters, he is fully embracing authoritarianism. Sham indictments against nonprofits are just one part of this plan. President Trump, his captured Supreme Court, and Republicans in this very room have supported attacks on law firms involved in civil rights litigation, dismantling the federal civil rights offices, weaponizing the DOJ to basically attack the president's enemies, gutting
▶ 4:15:22the Voting Rights Act. This is an effort to criminalize We're witnessing an intentional effort to intimidate any institution who will stand up for our rights, the rights of Americans. It's an intentional effort to silence black voices and to undo our multiracial democracy. And the majority claims that the SPLC manufactures hate. Here's the hard truth.
▶ 4:15:50There is no reason that the SPLC has to manufacture hate in this country because the Trump era has supplied plenty of it. White supremacy, Christian nationalism, violence against women, right-wing extremism, and bigotry against the LGBTQ community is flourishing. And the president just set up a corrupt slush fund to pay people who took up arms against our own government.
▶ 4:16:14Right now, hate is being cultivated, rewarded, and reinforced by those in power. Ms. Wiley, thank you for being here. How do these attacks on SPLC, the Justice Department, and the civil rights of black Americans in in force civil rights enforcement affect the civil rights of black Americans?
▶ 4:16:37And I just want to share one story we haven't talked about because the reality is Charles Morrell III, a black man in Boston in 2022, was just walking down the street. The Patriot Front attacked him. The Patriot Front is listed on SPLC's heat map as a hate and extremist group.
▶ 4:17:02The importance of calling it out is so that Charles Murray III can walk down the street and be safe. And at a time when we're talking about schools and education and children and what happens within them, we see a broadside attack on even teaching history of slavery, history of the civil rights movement that took permission away from hate and extremism and said this country, no matter your viewpoint, no matter your religion, no matter who you vote
▶ 4:17:32for, and no matter what you believe is your country. That matters for all of us, and I say every American should be concerned, no matter who you are, if we whitewash hate. I I couldn't agree more because we see every day when we turn on the news and we watch this president at press conferences, the bigotry and the hatred is coming from the top. It's a strategy. It's an electoral strategy, but it's also a cultural one.
▶ 4:17:58The way President Trump has routinely insulted and demeaned women and people of color has permeated this country. When he casually calls women reporters piggy and stupid and mouths the word at a black When he calls Haiti and African countries nations. When he repeatedly and relentlessly spreads falsehoods about President Obama's birth certificate, it spreads the hate.
▶ 4:18:29As a former history teacher, I know there's going to be a reckoning. There will. And our children and our grandchildren will ask us where we stood.
▶ 4:18:44What we said, what we did when we had these microphones, when we had these They will ask us if we bowed down to a tyrant, to a bigot, to a man who spreads hate through his social media post, through his appearances at press conferences. They will ask us this, and I will tell you I know where I am. I'm standing with the people, and I'm standing with the I yield back.
▶ 4:19:13The gentlelady yields back. The gentleman from South Carolina is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um hey guys, I have a great idea. we we raised $51 million. That's really Um but I think we can do better, right? I think we can do just a little bit if we just invest in the same thing that we're perpetuating and we're if we perpetuate the same thing that we're fighting against. So, let's let's Mr. O'Neal, $3 million.
▶ 4:19:42Does that Does that sound about right? If we take that little bit of money and send it to informants in white nationalist groups, I think we can two and a half like I think we can double our money. Does that sound like a good business model?
▶ 4:19:57for you. I think it's only 270 to that particular Charlottesville informant.
▶ 4:20:03Right. It's So So, let's I think that's a good investment. Don't you? I don't think if a year from now a year from now in 2017, I think we'll see the fruits of our labor. Is that kind of what happened? According to the indictment, and I I do need to preface according to the indictment because I haven't seen the underlying evidence, and of course this will work out in court.
▶ 4:20:26But according to the indictment, that's exactly what So, So, we take this organization, the Southern Poverty Law Center, that has had I'd say tremendous success decades ago in eliminating racism in our country and fixing laws and seeing really a societal change in the way that we approach race in the way that we deal with race. and they were doing pretty good in 2016 and even before. But isn't that just crazy? I mean, Ms.
▶ 4:20:55Heageman talked about this a second ago, but we're sitting in we're perpetuating the problem and funding the problem that we're eliminating, right? I mean, this is this is a division for dollars racket. Is that fair characterization at least according to the indictment? Well, and that's what I That's why I wrote this book in 2020, years before the indictment, because I saw it when they put good people like Tony Perkins' organization, Family Research Council, on the hate map.
▶ 4:21:25I've been screaming from the rooftops about this for years. So, when the indictment comes out, I say, "Yeah, that That makes a lot of sense to me." And I want to set a few if if you don't mind, I want to set a few things straight. Southern Poverty Law Center wasn't founded until 1971. A lot of people in this room have been saying that it's a civil rights organization started in the middle of the civil rights movement. It was started toward the end of it. They were almost ambulance chasing.
▶ 4:21:52I mean, and forgive me on this, but when they sued the Klan, their own lawyers said that suing the Klan was like shooting fish in a barrel. And their own lawyers quit because they said Morris Dees was so focused on suing the Klan to make money by going to donors because he knew donors cared about this that they were drifting away from their original mission, which by the way wasn't fighting white supremacy, but was representing poor people in the South
▶ 4:22:23with legal representation, which is a noble mission, and I pray to God that they turn every effort that they demonizing conservatives toward that effort, because that effort is noble. And by the way, groups on the hate map, good conservative groups that provide legal representation to people who can't afford it are demonized by the SPLC for doing exactly what the SPLC
▶ 4:22:47So So, Mr. Mr. Perkins, real quick, if if the SPLC puts on their hate map uh neo-Nazi group, that's kind of their mission, right? There's no objection to that, probably not. Uh the transparency, I think, actually helps to eliminate groups like that. Would you agree? Yes. So, you're on the same list as a neo-Nazi group. And that's not really a fair characterization, is it? They need
▶ 4:23:13for Liberty, too. I mean, they their only crime, I think, is being involved in their child's education, right?
▶ 4:23:17Right, being moms. Being moms. Yeah. So, what they need
▶ 4:23:21a white supremacist thing, right? Like I I don't understand this logic, but we we are taking an entity and using an idea that we're going to go grow our influence. In the Biden administration and government, they're going to meet with us on a quarterly basis. We're going to go after people.
▶ 4:23:42It It became, I think, and and maybe this is fair to characterize, but the SPLC went from maybe an altruistic entity at its inception at on a good on a good day really a racket of let's go grow our influence, let's balloon our fundraising. I mean, what's their foundation right now? $700 million? Is it fair to characterize the mission creep of the SPLC in that way, sir?
▶ 4:24:07Congressman Fry, it's more insidious than that. They needed the the the the white supremacist group so that they could marginalize and demonize moms and groups that adhere to biblical teaching. They needed those groups. That's why they're propping them up. This was not about money.
▶ 4:24:25This was about Charlottesville was about coalescing corporations behind their initiative to marginalize and demonize conservatives so the left could march forward. It's much more insidious than what this is like Al Capone. Does anybody believe that it was just tax evasion? Come on, he was a criminal. He killed. He murdered. And you use that to justify your existence. Matt That, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Gentleman yields back.
▶ 4:24:54Gentleman from Florida's Which way are we going? No, I was just going to note they were 30 6 seconds over and I think it means Crockett needs to catch an airplane so she can go
▶ 4:25:02then we'll come to the gentleman from Well, well, well. Um I you know it is so hard to sit here and listen to this. That's one reason I watched the majority of this um and didn't actually sit in this room because I'm sure my face is what it told um everything that I was thinking. is there anyone that finds it odd? Well, can we start here? I'm going to start with the entire panel.
▶ 4:25:31Are the Proud Boys a white supremacist organization? Yes or no? Starting with Ms. Wild. It is my view they are. It depends on how you define it. I have a book
▶ 4:25:48Okay, never mind. Next.
▶ 4:25:50on how you define it.
▶ 4:25:51or no? Proud Boys, how they define themselves. Are they white supremacists? Yes or no? I have not read a description of how they define themselves. I'm not on their mailing list. I don't So, are you only on the mailing list of I'm not like the SPLC. I don't fund organizations that I'm against.
▶ 4:26:10Oh, it just seemed like you were saying because you haven't received their mail, you only receive the mail of white supremacists. But, go ahead. Last witness. No, they're not white supremacists. And you know what? I do believe that y'all believe that. Let's try another one. Neo-Nazis. Ms. Wild. Well, yes. See, what?
▶ 4:26:29Neo-Nazis. Nazis is in their name. Neo-Nazis, Dr. Swein. Is the question still about the Proud Boys, or is it about the uh Neo-Nazis. We have moved on. Neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazis are hate groups, and I have a book,
▶ 4:26:46you so much. So, we're going to So, that I suggest that you all read.
▶ 4:26:50I'm reclaiming my time. I'm reclaiming my time. Neo-Nazis. The Are they white are they white supremacists? Yes or no? What's that? Yes or no? They're certainly anti-Semitic, which I would join with any member of the Democratic Party. Mr. Nadler earlier was talking about standing up for the Jewish people.
▶ 4:27:13my time. Yes, they're white supremacists. Oh, thank god. Uh Jesus Christ, I didn't think we were going to get there. Oh my gosh, let me be clear. Proud Boys are freaking white supremacists. Neo-Nazis are, too. And this president, who loves to cuddle white supremacists, has decided that they should be given checks. The reasons that I pointed to those particular organizations is because you can go and read, I don't know how many articles as Dr. Swein wants people to read up. I'm going to be clear. I I've read my fair share of books.
▶ 4:27:43I do have my fair share of It is clear that Neo-Nazis, as well as Proud Boys, joined in on January 6th. Yet, the slush fund that they keep talking about is specifically to give them money. So, how dare this majority sit here and try to try to lecture this organization about money.
▶ 4:28:10Now, we're not talking about tax-paying as we are in that slush fund. But, you're telling me that $2 billion in the same country that I'm sure some of y'all would struggle with whether or not the enslavement of black people was good or bad. I'm not even going to go there and ask y'all the question cuz y'all struggle with defining that these people were white supremacists.
▶ 4:28:33But this country still hasn't thought that reparations made sense for black folk in this country, but at the same time they've decided that people that are in organizations that are absolutely white supremacy organizations should get our tax dollars because they decided to tear apart or attempt to tear apart our democracy. They are being rewarded. These are people that went through our criminal justice system.
▶ 4:28:58When people on that side of the aisle claim that they love law and order, they went through it. They either entered pleas of guilty or they were found guilty. And this president on day one his priority was not around racism. It was around doing things like letting them go and now putting money in their pockets.
▶ 4:29:17We haven't had one hearing on white Yet when we look at things like the killing of Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, the nine worshipers who were murdered at the Mother Emanuel AME Church, the 23 people murdered in 2019 during the shooting at Walmart in El Paso, the 10 people murdered during the 2022 shooting at a grocery store in Buffalo, New York. All of these were murdered by white supremacists who are empowered by the Republican Party's racist rhetoric and policies.
▶ 4:29:48This is the same party that wants to drag us back to the Jim Crow era. Some say that there aren't poll taxes and I guess it's because they're not listing the amount of money, but when you tell somebody that they've got to go and pay for something say like a passport that costs over $100 in order to be able to vote, that looks like a poll tax to me.
▶ 4:30:07Some of y'all need to read up on your history books the very same ones that the Republicans have decided that people should not hear about cuz you don't want real history taught in our schools because you're afraid that it's going to hurt people's feelings to know that their ancestors were so savage that they would enslave black folk. You don't want them to understand why the 14th Amendment mattered then and it matters today.
▶ 4:30:31You don't want them to understand that when they draw these racist lines and tell black folk that they shouldn't have representation in this country that it is against the Constitution.
▶ 4:30:41Time of the gentle lady has expired. Time of the gentle lady has expired. Well, you can't yield cuz you done run out of time. But uh it looks like the ranking member wants to make a uh unanimous consent request.
▶ 4:30:57Mr. Chairman, thank you. Uh Walmart gunman attacked El Paso because that's what his president was telling him, his defense attorney says. I'd like to introduce that for the record. No Democrats have talked about a slush fund. I would just point out, was it a slush fund when Peter Strzok got 1.2 million dollars from the Garland Justice Was it a slush fund when Lisa Page got 800,000? You know, Peter Strzok's the guy that said, "I'm in the Northern Virginia Walmart.
▶ 4:31:25I can smell the Trump supporters." And the Biden Justice Department gave him 1.2 million dollars. Gentleman from North Carolina is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Wiley, I want to talk to you about the Charles Morrell case that you mentioned earlier. You said it happened where? Boston. In Boston? Yes, sir. And he was attacked by whom? The Patriot Front. The Patriot Front?
▶ 4:31:51Um the SPLC did not give the Patriot Front any money, is that correct? Uh I don't know. You don't know? No. Um and how was he attacked? And pardon me, I I'm just not familiar with this case. Uh the Patriot Front was um had a a march that they were engaged in without a permit and he was attacked on the street.
▶ 4:32:14Was he killed or just assaulted or I don't know that it matters if we're talking about a hate crime, which is what we're talking about.
▶ 4:32:22trying to get the details, ma'am, and I'm leading up to this. Would you be willing to condemn the local leaders' efforts to defund the police cuz I agree with you. We should have safe streets. I'm sorry. I'm not quite sure what
▶ 4:32:35Will you condemn Boston's local leaders from trying to defund the police? They did that in their recent budget proposal.
▶ 4:32:42I This is I don't live in Boston. What I will say is this was a hate crime
▶ 4:32:48the police helps or hurts public safety?
▶ 4:32:51I think that I was asked to come speak to was the rise of hate and the critical importance of us addressing and protecting civil rights.
▶ 4:33:00Well, you said earlier that you respect Mr. Murrell's right to a free street. So, I'm asking you, will you condemn the local leaders' efforts to defund the police? I will not make any comment about local decisions.
▶ 4:33:13What about Mayor Wu's policy of offering sanctuary to people here illegally regardless of their criminal history? Will you condemn that? No. So, it seems like your qualification on public safety is very limited. Correct? No, I'm just I'm just here on a hate
▶ 4:33:31let's talk about the hate crimes. In terms of the neo-Nazis, I actually agree with just about every word that Jerry Nadler said. I'm working on a bill to to promote safe places of worship, increase penalties for attacks on worshipers. And neo-Nazis neo-Naziism is certainly on the rise. You would agree with that.
▶ 4:33:48I would. Anti-Semitism, attacks against Jews, Christians, members of other faiths is on the rise. It is. Um do you know why it's on the rise? Well, I think that's why we've been so concerned about the cuts to grants and programs that are helping us understand the rise and exactly why we have young men like we saw in San Diego Yep.
▶ 4:34:11murdered three men at a mosque.
▶ 4:34:13Are you concerned at all
▶ 4:34:14concerned about the attacks on the Southern Poverty Law Center, which is also seeking to help us better understand and
▶ 4:34:20it at all problematic that one of the leading candidates for United States proudly commissioned and displayed a Nazi tattoo on his chest for almost 20 years. Does that concern you? I I don't know who you're referring to. I would only say that anti-Semitism, neo-Nazism, hate always concerns me.
▶ 4:34:40Would you condemn that? And that candidate.
▶ 4:34:43Condemn He's a United States Senate candidate who proudly wore a Nazi tattoo right on his chest. Well, certainly I agree with any support of neo-Nazism. Now, I'm detecting a little bit of uh it seems like viewpoint and partisan bias from the SPLC. Uh Mr. Perkins, I want to talk to you a little bit about this.
▶ 4:35:07Do you know why there is such fervent um resistance or I would say fervent hatred for traditional viewpoints, for Christians, for people like yourself? I do because we have a fixed view of marriage, of human sexuality, and that stands in the way of the left's ideological push to transgender our children, and to redefine marriage.
▶ 4:35:31And so, in order to shut us up, knock us off the media, defund us, they have to label us alongside of these racist groups. Right. Ms. Wylie, do you think that biblical values are extreme? I can't that I don't know if I can understand the question, I'm sorry. I'm
▶ 4:35:49do you believe that biblical values are I believe that people have the right
▶ 4:35:54Sure. to have their beliefs, including their interpretations of religion, whatever their religion is. Is Mr. Perkins' belief in traditional biblical values what brought him to the forefront of the SPLC's hate group map?
▶ 4:36:07I can't speak for the SPLC's
▶ 4:36:09You are today. I am here to speak about hate and bias and what I am here to say
▶ 4:36:15biblical values promotes hate and bias? That is way too broad a question to answer. What I'm What I'm very clear on is that we have a constitution that protects first amendment rights including freedom of religion. We support that as a civil rights community that includes almost every faith and and an interfaith alliance.
▶ 4:36:32know that let me let me stop you there. You know, I know Dr. Swain well. She's a scholar. She's independent. She's very well thought out. Why was she listed as someone to be concerned about? I'm here because we're talking about hate. I did do not engage in the
▶ 4:36:49I don't know her. You're on behalf of the SPLC. I'm on behalf of civil rights, the Leadership
▶ 4:36:54anti-civil rights? I don't know her. Well, I'm over my time, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, could we just clarify Ms. Wiley's organizational identification? I think there's some confusion here. Yeah. I am the president and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, which is the nation's oldest and largest civil rights coalition of almost 250 national organizations. Gentleman from Florida is recognized. Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 4:37:24I want to go back really quick to uh the questioning uh by Ms. Crockett just cuz I thought it was actually an easy line of questioning and I want to give everyone an opportunity just to clarify. Ms. Swain, the the neo-Nazis are a supremacist group, right? I know you talked about your book, but neo-Nazis are a supremacist group.
▶ 4:37:43May I define a white supremacist because I did a Cambridge University Press book and when I did my research at Cambridge I know Ms. Swain, you're I got to ask you. You're doing what the You're doing what the university professors did with Elise Stefanik. No, I'm giving you
▶ 4:37:57well, what's the definition of this and what's the you all don't have one. The neo-Nazis are supremacist group. They believe they're supreme. Right? That's why they wanted to put people in camps that they believed were not pure. Neo-Nazis are supremacist group, right? I mean this this does not this is not a trick question, Ms. Swan. I'm I'm not trying to trip you up in the fact that
▶ 4:38:20like to define a white supremacist and when I did my research it was white people who believed that because of their race they were superior to other groups. But the left redefined white supremacists so that it could include any white person in this Ms. Swan Ms. Swan that's hold on. That's a wonderful speech and a filibuster. Are neo-Nazis It depends on which ones. They are they are they are individuals. Some of them are I didn't ask you which ones. Ms.
▶ 4:38:50Swan listen, I'm not reading your book if you literally can't answer this question. Are neo-Nazis supremacists? They're individuals. Some are and some may be just plain old anti-Semites. No no neo-Nazis are anti-Semites, okay? We're going to agree there. But they're also supremacists, Ms. Swan. Okay, if you if you are No no no. You don't have to take my word for it. Right? Like they are it's the whole that's the whole reason they exist because they believe they are supreme.
▶ 4:39:18You all don't seem to understand THAT A WHITE SUPREMACIST I'M NOT A NEO-NAZI. Who's they all? I'm a regular person asking another regular
▶ 4:39:26Okay, I will agree that neo-Nazis are supremacists. Okay, I didn't I don't want you to be forced into it.
▶ 4:39:33agree with you but I suggest you all take the time and read my Cambridge University Press Listen, Ms. Swan listen, Dr. Swan I can promise you there's no freaking way I'm buying your book. When when it took 2 minutes for you to look at me and not and and had to convince you that neo-Nazi listen Because I don't like the talking points the left is This is
▶ 4:39:52a talking point. This is 100 years of history. Watch this. I'm going to show you how easy it is. Mr. Perkins, are neo-Nazis supremacists? They are supremacists. Thank you, sir. Mr. O'Neal, Yes. Dr. Swan, that wasn't a trick question for them. I wasn't trying to trip them up. I wasn't using DNC talking points. This is part of the problem. And I and I I didn't even want to do this, quite frankly, cuz I don't want I'm not interested in making this stuff political. Right?
▶ 4:40:18I got I got Democratic candidates in in Texas coming out yesterday and saying that Jews belong in concentration camps again. It's terrible.
▶ 4:40:27Like we're we're in real we're in real bad times.
▶ 4:40:31And so, if we put all this if we put these hateful conversations in our political and we do the whataboutism, we're this is just going to continue to spread hate.
▶ 4:40:44I agree with 100%. We agree on it.
▶ 4:40:46Right. But and and and that's why that's why we we got to be able to at least agree to a simple set of facts that neo-Nazis are supremacists. Right? Okay. We've moved on we've moved on. We are you're there. But you all use white supremacist as a broad statement. It doesn't apply I didn't I didn't Listen, I didn't I didn't say anything other than they're supremacists. Okay.
▶ 4:41:05And they are. I apologize to you, sir.
▶ 4:41:07Okay. Now, you don't have to apologize to me. I just I just want you to understand like if we can't agree on a simple set of facts, then we can't solve real problems. So, you know, Mr. Chairman, you know, this obviously was a specific topic that you had scheduled a couple weeks ago and invited these witnesses in, but I got to be honest like the last the amount of anti-Semitic messages, voicemails, text messages I have gotten, stuff on my social media,
▶ 4:41:38an assassination plot, you know, a couple months ago someone serving 25 years in in jail. and now watching someone running for office trying to join the greatest deliberative body ever created on this planet who thinks the way forward for America is to look at 1940s Germany. Okay, my grandmother was part of the Kindertransport out of Germany. Her parents died at Auschwitz. My kids are not going to an internment camp. I can assure you.
▶ 4:42:09and it's becoming so normalized. It It is You know, we we've gone from, you know, like, oh, there's there's Americans who donate to elected officials, you know, that are AIPAC, and then it's, you know, okay, Netanyahu, and then it's, you know, okay, you know, maybe we shouldn't support foreign money, and then, okay, now we're going to call all these people Zionists, and now we're at concentration camps. By the way, we got the concentration camps much faster than I thought we would get, but here we are.
▶ 4:42:39and it's real scary. The people are scared. Peo- People don't want to show their Jewish stars anymore. They're moving into neighborhoods just to be around other other Jews because they're concerned. And one of the my Republican colleagues now I know I'm over, Mr. Chairman, I'm going to wrap it up. One of my Republican colleagues asked, like, do we know why it's spreading hate, all sorts of hate, not just an- anti-Semitism. Why is This is why it's spreading. It's all here. It's really here. Go Go poll young kids versus seniors.
▶ 4:43:09It's a dramatic difference in the amount of hate young kids have versus seniors. This is the difference. You're seeing it in voting patterns, you're seeing it in belief systems. We've let foreign governments and bots just totally weaponize this. Getting No No countries can beat us militarily. We're stronger than everyone combined, but they have They are gotten us fighting amongst ourselves, dividing us, at each other's throats.
▶ 4:43:35So, if you you ask me why things are so bad, I mean, just just spend a couple minutes. Go to my Go look at some happy things like a happy Veterans Day or happy Memorial Day that I posted. Look at the hate I get. You know, it is out of control. So, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate you doing this hearing in general. hate and hate real hate is spreading in this country in ways that my grandparents they're gone.
▶ 4:44:05But, I I can't imagine if they were alive to see what was going on here. All right, you're back. Thank you for the extra time, Mr. Chairman. Well, I appreciate what the gentleman said and one of the things I have personally made a commitment to do is keep it out of keep it out of our part the the party I belong to and I know you are doing unbelievable amount of work trying to keep it out of your party. The once great party of FDR and JFK is we're seeing things there that are just not healthy for this great nation.
▶ 4:44:33Um and I'm committed to doing everything I can to make sure it doesn't get involved in the Republican Party. Um and I appreciate your words cuz it is it is scary, very scary. The gentleman from Missouri is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have to say I agree with a lot of what um my colleague Mr.
▶ 4:44:52Moskowitz just said and I think it is a lot of the hatred and division is driven by the by social media by by this, especially since COVID and I believe our foreign adversaries and many times are intervening and I believe the algorithms are driving our young people particularly into more and more extreme views and that's sowing social division and that is not good for anyone other than our foreign Um but, Mr.
▶ 4:45:22Chairman, thank you for holding this committee. It is truly astounding to me the lengths to which the Southern Poverty Law Center has gone to preserve its relevance. And I think it's telling that at this our second hearing about the Southern Poverty Law Center, my Democrat colleagues have not called someone from to to defend themselves.
▶ 4:45:45In fact, the previous Democrat witness, very similar to the witness today, just over and over again, well, I don't speak for the SPLC. Well, why are you here then? Look, an organization that was ostensibly committed to advancing civil rights should strive to make its own intervention less necessary by encouraging productive dialogue and fostering equal treatment under the law, rather than continually continually framing disagreements through the lens of racial animosity.
▶ 4:46:16If the SPLC were serious about dismantling hate, it would not be funding it, nor would it be engaging in conduct that promotes division for institutional or political gain. Mr. O'Neal, is it a common practice? You've written a lot about nonprofit organizations or NGOs. Is it a common practice for NGOs to channel money through intermediaries, entities in ways that obscure the ultimate recipient or purpose of those funds?
▶ 4:46:46Yes, to some degree. There is dark money through and and this happens on both the right and the left. You have groups like 1630 Fund and the Tides Foundation that purpose that seems set up to hide which donors are funding which projects. Okay. And are are there legal or ethical issues with This I don't know, money laundering if you will.
▶ 4:47:15That's a complicated question. It is not money laundering. There is a very important First Amendment right established and and upheld through NAACP v. Alabama and most recently AFP v. Bonta that Americans have the right to give to causes they believe in. Yeah. That said, you know, there there are questions about this cloaking of dark money.
▶ 4:47:41What is not covered in this is lying to a bank by saying you established an account for one purpose and then using it for another.
▶ 4:47:49Yes. Okay. And do does does the SPLC reveal what the criteria or metrics are to determine which organizations or individuals uh are included in their hate map? They claim to, yes. They have they have Because uh when I
▶ 4:48:06very weaselly language. They say, "When a group vilifies other people, typically by their immutable characteristics." But they use the word typically because they have anti-immigrant hate groups. And so, your immigration status is not an immutable
▶ 4:48:22So, FAIR Center for Immigration Studies, I've I've studied their their work quite a bit, and all I see is a desire to enforce federal immigration law, but somehow that makes you a hate group. Well, let's go to let's let's go to someone right here, um uh Dr. Swain. Are you an apologist for white supremacists? I don't think so. I try to stand up for all Americans.
▶ 4:48:51I believe in the Civil Rights Act and the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. It applies to all races. And in America, we should not be discriminating for or against any So, you have a dream that someday your young children would be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the quality of their character. I don't know. I think if someone says something like that, they would be labeled a hate group by the SPLC, maybe.
▶ 4:49:23Um and um I think you said it you said it very very well, Dr. Swain, um that rather than monitoring hate groups, the Southern Poverty Law Center has become And that was 2009. And I I had been a Democrat all of my life, and so well, at that time I was about ready to make a transition, but So, that was 2009. In the last 17 years, has anything changed your mind about SPLC?
▶ 4:49:53I was I was ahead of my time. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Yields back, gentleman from New York. Oh, okay, sure. We'll go to the gentleman from Wisconsin. Thank you, Chairman. Mr.
▶ 4:50:11O'Neal, I I wanted to talk a little bit about this uh the hate map concept, isn't it true Southern Poverty Law Center began began as a public interest law firm? Correct. And uh it actually as a member of the state legislature, we had some issues in which Southern Poverty Law Center had weighed in on.
▶ 4:50:37So, I was familiar with the group before this latest uh set of of uh issues made us kind of more aware uh what's going on internally. But, um when did the organization start to kind of stray from that original mission or that original course? So, it strayed from that course in at least two ways and two time periods.
▶ 4:51:04The first was in the 1980s when the lawyers all quit because they said that Morris Dees took the organization in a direction of fighting the Klan instead of representing poor people in the South. And then the more recent time was really starting in the late 1990s, but ramping up by you know, 1,000% in 2010 when they had their hate map and they started going after conservative organizations. So, let's talk about the hate map.
▶ 4:51:33So, first of all, can you explain the hate map? Yes, this is a map. The SPLC is best known for suing clan groups into bankruptcy. And so, they had a program called clan watch. They expanded it to hate watch because they ran out of grand dragons to slay and not to say that white supremacy doesn't exist anymore in America. There are some isolated groups, but by and large not enough to justify the sort of money that the SPLC gets.
▶ 4:52:02And they have this map that's supposed to and in their words, they say it reveals the infrastructure upholding white supremacy in America today. And this map now includes social conservative organizations like the Family Research Council, Moms for Liberty. It includes now Turning Point USA, PragerU. It includes Alliance Defending Freedom. It includes the Center for Immigration Studies, the Federation for American Immigration.
▶ 4:52:28I mean, I could just go down the list and it also includes a group of LGB people who oppose sexualized lessons for children in So, is
▶ 4:52:38call that group an anti-LGBTQ hate group. So, is it too far to say there's no left-wing groups on the hate map? There are a few left-leaning groups on the hate map, but nowhere near like the overall bias is very clear against the right. They don't have antifa. They don't have Jane's Revenge. They do have the New Black Panther Party, I believe, which they always reference when they're asked this question.
▶ 4:53:04But by and large, the hate map is solely well, not solely, but by and large targeted on conservative organizations. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Perkins. Um, do you think the Southern Poverty Law Center is intentionally trying to draw a distinction between you and these kind of legitimate hate groups? Do you think they're trying to maybe They're trying to conflate.
▶ 4:53:29They use those organizations to marginalize and demean legitimate conservative Christian organizations.
▶ 4:53:36think they're purposely diverting money from your organization and reducing your operations or do you think that's a
▶ 4:53:43That was a part of their their broader conspiracy with financial platforms and and banks to debank us and other organizations to keep us from being able to get funds from donor advised funds. Yes. So they're they're trying to to bankrupt conservative groups. Can I ask you further, did they have any success in that adventure launch? Okay. Okay.
▶ 4:54:05Um, the last thing I would say is do they you have relationship with if there for with corporate donations, is there any linkage between kind of what they were doing to suppress further corporate donations to their organization? Or to you? Either way.
▶ 4:54:26I think most of the work was corporations that had platforms or financial corporations that like PayPal that would facilitate funding to conservative groups. Most corporations were not giving to conservative groups directly. So it was they were intermediates. They were the vehicles through which people would donate to conservative organizations.
▶ 4:54:48Yeah, so it wasn't about the ideology of the corporation. It was more about how they facilitated the actual movement of
▶ 4:54:55Well, I would say some of them willingly went along. Others were pressured by the SPLC using their government connections and I think some some in the tech world have suggested that there were threats about regulate regulators Uh, like in the banking industry. Yeah. So I think they use threats and bullying tactics. Thank you very much, Chairman. I yield back. Uh, you see. Gentleman yields back. Gentleman of Pennsylvania is recognized.
▶ 4:55:20Yes, I seek unanimous consent to introduce an article from May 8th, 2026, um, from The Intercept, which is entitled Big Finance might be dooming the SPLC even before its day in court, describing how uh, some of these uh, larger financial institutions have been blocking donor-advised fund donations to the SPLC. Objection. Thank you.
▶ 4:55:42Gentleman from New York is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, the hate map, uh, you don't like it. I get it. but the SPLC is not a government And we have the First Amendment.
▶ 4:55:55So, they're free to put what they want, and all of you, are free to speak out against it and to explain why they're wrong, but as I think of my Republican colleagues, we believe in the First Amendment, except, I guess, when it's critical of far-right groups or conservative groups who support these Republicans.
▶ 4:56:18But, you are not free to use the government to criminally a organization based on a completely bogus charge. And I want to dig into this indictment. On April 21st, hours after Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche and the FBI Director Kash Patel announced this indictment, Mr. Blanche went on Fox and said this.
▶ 4:56:47No information that we have that suggests that the money that they were paying to these informants and these members of these organizations, they then turned around and shared what they learned with law enforcement. To the contrary, or else we would have known from their own words that they had given this money to uh, to these guys, and we didn't know it. they had no idea that the SPLC was using uh and providing information to the government. Five days later, Mr.
▶ 4:57:15Blanck was forced to acknowledge that that was a false statement. In fact, it was in a document filed by the Department of Justice where he said, "It is true." He went on TV and said, "It is true that over the years they have selectively shared information with law enforcement. That's well documented and no dispute." But they aren't charged with any of that conduct. What the hell does that mean they aren't charged with any of that conduct?
▶ 4:57:41The entire premise of this fraud scheme is that SPLC was actually using the money given by the donors to support the hate groups, not to dismantle them as they represented. So, any knowledge by the government that the SPLC shared information with them to dismantle these groups completely undermines and defeats the fraud claim.
▶ 4:58:07But there's plenty of evidence that the FBI knew that the information provided to them by the SPLC to help the FBI dismantle these groups came from informants. In fact, 2 weeks before the indictment, the SPLC presented the US Attorney's Office with evidence that showed that they had been sharing information from informants with the FBI dating back to 2018.
▶ 4:58:35And even Blanck's statement that none of the information shared with the FBI was charged in the indictment is false. It doesn't matter because that's not what the fraud claim is, but it is false because the Charlottesville Unite the Right movement is specifically mentioned in the indictment.
▶ 4:58:55But the indictment does not mention the 45-page report that the SPLC sent to multiple FBI offices before the Unite the Right event that included information from their we've established that. Now we know this fraud claim is completely bogus, but it gets worse. Because it's not even part of the allegations.
▶ 4:59:24In paragraph 19 of the indictment, it explains the fraud scheme. It says that the SPLC represented to the victim donors that their money would be used to help dismantle violent extremist groups, but that they did not tell those donors exactly how they would do that. So, it actually charges fraud by omission, not representation misrepresentation.
▶ 4:59:49But in order to have fraud by omission, you must prove that the omission was material to the victims such that they would have acted differently if they had known about it. But there isn't a single allegation in the indictment that any donor would not have donated if they knew about the payments to informants. In fact, everything we know is the opposite. Ms. Wiley has pointed out repeatedly about how donors are trying to continue to give.
▶ 5:00:18And that Intercept article that Ranking Member Raskin introduced sites 20 donors who now say that they either knew about the paid informants or they would have made their donations anyway. And so, what is this really about?
▶ 5:00:34It is weaponizing and politicizing the Department of Justice, not any of your groups, to quash and squash free speech, to muzzle people that because you are trying to protect far-right investigations who are huge supporters of the Republican Party.
▶ 5:00:55They may not do any oversight over this indictment, but I guarantee you when we take the majority back in January, we will be doing that oversight and they will be held accountable. I yield back. Chairman yields back. Gentleman from Texas is recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for holding this hearing and thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to be here um and testify before us. We certainly um really appreciate that um and appreciate your expertise.
▶ 5:01:26Um Miss Miss Wiley, I have a couple questions for you. Do you still believe in defunding the police? I believe in public safety and that means driving dollars to where we're most likely to prevent crimes from happening and ensure that we have responsive law enforcement that doesn't violate people's rights and it prevents
▶ 5:01:46Does that mean driving dollars away from law enforcement? It means making sure we're driving dollars to the things that support public safety and that's a variety of things.
▶ 5:01:57So possibly away from law enforcement. Well, I think we have law enforcement. We have talked about the need for law enforcement particularly when we're fighting hate and bias crimes which have more than doubled in this country since 2015. So I think that's important.
▶ 5:02:14During your your mayoral race a few years ago, you said quote, "I'm going to take a billion dollars from New York City Police Department." Do you still think that's a good idea? Well, I'm here to talk about hate crimes, not my run for mayor of the city. I I stand by my run for mayor and I appreciate the opportunity to to try to drive dollars to public
▶ 5:02:35cut the police budget and change what we mean by policing. Do you still stand by that statement as well? I stand by the need to invest in community safety to ensure that we have a vibrant civil rights community that is able to participate in creating
▶ 5:02:52to be clear that you believe in investing in community safety by defunding the police.
▶ 5:02:58I am here to say that I'm really grateful we have the Southern Poverty Law Center because it is doing work including with law enforcement
▶ 5:03:06defunding the police makes our communities safer. Okay, I've got I've got another question for you. What what is a black job? You'd have to ask Donald Trump. I'm I'm not sure what that means. I'm I'm referring to a statement that you made a year ago on your LinkedIn. I was so honored and proud to be a New York State delegate for our next president with Vice President Kamala Harris ascending to her black job.
▶ 5:03:30Donald Trump made a comment that was very stereotypical about black people and it was a joke about his stereotypical statement about
▶ 5:03:39a black job? You'll have to ask Donald Trump. To ask well, Donald Trump's not on the witness stand.
▶ 5:03:44Well, and I'm I'm here to talk about hate crime which I hope you want to talk about as well. Will the gentleman yield? Will you yield I can clarify that?
▶ 5:03:51No, I I'd like to hear from the witness but I I appreciate it. Could Could Hillary Clinton have filled that black job? You'd have to ask Donald Trump. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate it. Dr. Swain I'd like got a couple questions for you. And thank you again for for being here. In your book The New White Nationalism which is which is excellent you wrote that in 2002 there were approximately 2,000 KKK members in the entire nation.
▶ 5:04:21Sounds like you believe a large portion of them were paid informants. Do you think that the SPLC was involved back in 2002? Can you turn the mic on please? There was a scholar named Laird Wilcox that I referenced and he did research and he was very critical of the Southern Poverty Law Center and he said at one point that there were more paid informants than actually KKK members.
▶ 5:04:49And I will concede that the Southern Poverty Law Center was very successful as far as bankrupting the neo-Nazis and the southern and the KKK. So, I will concede that, but I will also argue that as early as 2009, when I wrote the the article that triggered the Southern Poverty Law Center, at that time the New Black Panther Party was patrolling the polls, I think
▶ 5:05:19in Philadelphia, and they were intimidating white people and they had sticks in their hands, and the Southern Poverty Law Center had not labeled them as a hate group. And so, in the blog where I ended with instead of monitoring hate groups, the Southern Poverty Law Center has become one.
▶ 5:05:37Instead of labeling or or listing the New Black Panther Party, what they did, they went after Lou Dobbs, and they went after the Center for Immigration Studies, and anyone who questioned liberal immigration policies. Mhm. And and we've got about 15-20 seconds left. Can you just to to sort of close this out? What what are the dangers of of paying for these informants in extremist groups like the KKK?
▶ 5:06:06You you get biased information if you're paying people for information. And one of the dangers for our society is that the Southern Poverty Law Center has pretty much become an arm of the Democratic Party. They are very partisan. They should not have that 501c3 status if they're going to take a side in um if they're going to be biased in how they monitor groups and how they destroy individuals like me. Thank you, Dr. Swain. Gentleman yields back. Gentleman from New York is recognized.
▶ 5:06:36Mr. Chairman, can I just do one UC? That's what I'm doing. I think they both want to. Okay. So, sorry. This is in direct answer to the gentleman from Texas question. New York Times what's a black job Trump's anti-immigration remarks are met with derision. Trump accused immigrants of stealing black jobs during Thursday's debate prompting criticism from Democrats and other social media users. So I'm glad to see that the gentleman's on our side. Thank you very much. Gentleman from New York is recognized.
▶ 5:07:02I have another unanimous consent motion to enter into the record an April 17th letter from the attorneys for the SPLC 4 days before the indictment where the organization reminded him of his obligation as a federal prosecutor to inform the grand jury of information that negates evidence of wrongdoing by SPLC of which there is much. Over. No objection.
▶ 5:07:27Chair now recognizes gentleman from Well, thank you Mr. Chair and our distinguished uh You know, I don't know what happened to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
▶ 5:07:49Uh I know growing up in the Inland Northwest in in Eastern Washington, I had some fun these favorable memories towards the Southern Poverty Law Center when we had a Aryan Nations compound in uh the Coeur d'Alene area and it resonated with me that the SPLC had had played a role in getting those folks out of our communities and it was generally viewed upon favorably.
▶ 5:08:19So I don't know how it went from that organization to what I think today could be accurately described is an almost militant weaponized arm of a progressive Marxist political project here in the United States. So I guess you know, Mr.
▶ 5:08:38O'Neal, I'm sure you're familiar with the uh the uh the the the phrase jump the shark in Happy Days when when uh Fonzie jumped over the shark and it certainly this show went downhill from there. Yeah.
▶ 5:08:53Uh it and you spoke about the quest to start to focus on raising money from SPLC, but how did this organization again go from uh doing some good work uh against uh real racists like the Aryan Nations to suddenly targeting people trying to exercise their First Amendment rights and care about kids like Moms for Liberty? What Where is that process?
▶ 5:09:15Yeah, there the answer to that question is long and complicated and that's what my book was trying to do, but the uh the main So, first there was Morris Dees, who was a consummate fundraiser, and he decided to take the SPLC in that suing the Klan direction. And the lawyers said it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
▶ 5:09:37But, I think the the real answer to the your question, the substantive answer, is that we've seen on the left this ideological drift where it used to be that they would stand for your right to disagree and speak openly, and now it is as though if you disagree with anything that the left says, you must be a vile racist hater. Like this this is always been a little bit of the rhetoric, but it got supercharged after 2020.
▶ 5:10:06And one of the reasons why Moms for Liberty is on the hate map is because they people many people on the left seem to work themselves into a lather and think that America is still systemically racist.
▶ 5:10:20And critical race theory is so deeply you know, their idea of critical race theory is that white supremacy is so deeply embedded in our institutions that you have to have a fundamental revolution on a systemic basis, otherwise you are supporting white supremacy. And that's the main reason I think why the SPLC justifies calling conservatives the infrastructure upholding white supremacy. Do you think the SPLC is interested in racism being
▶ 5:10:53I don't have expertise on that particularly. I think I wish I could say that I do believe that, but I I don't know. You know, they our colleague from Florida I think spoke very passionately Congressman Moskowitz about really concerning rise on on anti-Semitism and you know, when we see these issues of hate that can manifest themselves online and the social media sphere often with foreign actors.
▶ 5:11:23You know, the area that I'm really concerned about is the conspiracy theory mindset and this kind of derangement in the fever swamps of the internet that can play upon these things and that's one of the reasons why what's happened to SPLC is so concerning because not only does their own activities of of funding these informants so-called informants using donations to fund racism itself, but just this whole project it certainly is laden with fervor for conspiracy theories
▶ 5:11:53and we really do need some good think tank work, NGO work and other work to focus on this issue across the board of fighting conspiracy theory and you know, however it did happen this this jumping of the heart of the shark for SPLC really did some some probably lost here. I think really did was a detriment to society as a whole. I'll just close by saying thank you to all the panelists, but for all the good work you do Ms. Swain, Mr.
▶ 5:12:23Perkins, Mr. Neill and and Wiley and with that uh, Mr. Chairman, I'll yield back. Gentleman yields his back. The, um, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today for their great testimony. And I want to thank the those members of the audience who were here with us for the entire hearing. Particularly Leo, thank you. Uh, but we appreciate you all being here and what, uh, what the committee was able to gather from, uh, from your fine, uh, your fine testimony. And you can, uh, the witnesses are excused. Mr.
▶ 5:12:50Chair, I'd like to offer an, uh, unanimous consent. Gentlewoman is, is, uh, recognized. Thank you all again. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have two I'd like to, uh, enter into the record. The first is
▶ 5:13:02Gentlewoman is recognized. from the, thank you. From the Center for Economic and Policy Research, January 26th, the black jobs deficit cost black Americans $87 billion in 2025 because of strong anti-black bias in hiring. Objection. And I would like to enter into the record, uh, June of 24th, four months of black Americans respond to Trump's notion of black jobs. Objection. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
▶ 5:13:30Gentlewoman, the ranking member is recognized for a motion, I understand. Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Pursuing the clause 2K6 of rule 11, I hereby move to subpoena Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, Associate Attorney General Stanley Woodward, Treasury Secretary Scott Besent, IRS Chief Executive Officer Frank Bisignano, Treasury Department General Counsel Brian Morrissey to testify before the committee to hearing on Donald Trump's nearly $1.8 billion slush fund to reward insurrectionist writers and other alleged victims of
▶ 5:14:01weaponization.
▶ 5:14:01Ranking member has made a motion. Gentleman from California is recognized.
▶ 5:14:04I have a motion on the table. Motion has been moved. There's been a motion to move, uh, and put the, uh, lay the, motion on the table. Motion is non-debatable. Those, uh, the question occurs on the motion to table. Those in favor say I. I. Those opposed, no. No. Opinion of the chair, the eyes have it and the motion is
▶ 5:14:21a recorded vote, please, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 5:14:23Uh request for a recorded vote being uh, asked for a recorded vote is requested. The clerk will call the roll. Mr. Jordan. Yes. Mr. Jordan votes yes. Mr. Issa. Mr. Biggs. Mr. McClintock. Mr. McClintock votes aye. Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Massie. Mr. Roy. Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Fitzgerald votes aye. Mr. Cline. Mr. Cline votes aye. Mr.
▶ 5:14:53Gooden. Mr. Gooden votes aye. Mr. Van Drew. Mr. Nehls. Mr. Moore. Mr. Moore votes aye. Ms. Ms. Hageman votes aye. Ms. Lee. Mr. Hunt. Mr. Fry. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly votes no. Mr. Grothman. Mr. Grothman votes aye. Mr. Kustoff. Mr. Kustoff votes aye. Mr. Harris. Mr.
▶ 5:15:23Harris votes aye. Mr. Aderholt. Mr. Aderholt votes aye. Mr. Smith. Mr. Cole. Mr. Cole votes aye. Mr. Comer. Mr. Comer votes aye. Mr. Raskin. Mr. Raskin votes no. Mr. Nadler. Ms. Lofgren. No. Ms. Lofgren votes no. Mr. Cohen. Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson votes no. Mr. Lieu. Mr. Lieu votes no. Ms. Jayapal. Ms.
▶ 5:15:52Jayapal votes no. Mr. Correa. Ms. Scanlon. No. Ms. Scanlon votes no. Mr. Neguse. Mr. Neguse votes no. Ms. McBath. Ms. Ross. Ms. Ross votes no. Ms. Balint. Ms. Balint votes no. Mr. Garcia. Ms. Kamlager-Dove. No. Ms. Kamlager-Dove votes no. Mr. Moskowitz. Mr. Goldman. No. Mr. Goldman votes no. Ms. Crockett.
▶ 5:16:28Mr. Nadler. Mr. Nadler votes no. How am I recorded? Biggs. Mr. Biggs, you're not recorded. Aye. Mr. Biggs votes aye. Ms. McBath. Ms. McBath votes no.
▶ 5:17:00Mr. Garcia. Mr. Garcia. Mr. Garcia votes no. Mr. Correa. Mr. Correa votes no. Moskowitz. Mr. How do you vote? Mr. Mr. Moskowitz votes no.
▶ 5:18:52Mr. Schmidt. You're not recorded. Mr. Schmidt votes aye. Mr. Riser.
▶ 5:19:23I vote yes. Mr. Riser votes yes.
▶ 5:23:39Mr. Vandrew. Yes. Mr. Vandrewitz, yes.
▶ 5:26:11Mr. Fry, you're not recorded. Mr. Fry, what's I? Clerk, will you report?
▶ 5:26:32Mr. Chairman, there are 18 eyes and 17 no's. The motion is tabled. That concludes today's hearing. We thank our witnesses for Well, the witnesses who are left, we thank them now again. Uh without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses or additional materials for the record. Without objection, the hearing is