▶ 0:04:29The Subcommittee on Aviation will come to order. I ask unanimous consent that the chairman be authorized to declare recess at any time during today's hearing. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the members on not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions. Without objection, so ordered. And as a reminder, if members wish to insert a document into the record, please email it to documentsti@mail.house.gov. I now recognize myself for the purpose of an opening statement.
▶ 0:04:59Good morning and thank you to our panel of witnesses for being here today. Good to see you. Each of you brings a unique perspective to this important discussion on the state of America's small airports and rural communities access to the national airspace or the NAS. Airports are more than transportation hubs. They are economic engines supporting Americans livelihoods, connecting communities, and enhancing quality of life.
▶ 0:05:26There are nearly 5,000 public use airports and heliports heliports across the United States, and almost 3,300 of these facilities are on the FAA's National Plan of Integrated Airport These numbers are certain to grow as advanced air mobility technologies emerge and become integrated into the aviation system. Yet, all of these facilities, only 64 are large or medium hub airports. Understandably, they get a lot of attention.
▶ 0:05:57But there are another 450 airports providing critical commercial passenger service across the country. While they are well known within their communities, the air these airports deserve greater attention and stronger support from Congress.
▶ 0:06:10For the 46 million Americans living in rural communities, these facilities provide the same critical access to the NAS as larger airports do for urban All of you are here today to help us better highlight the value of these facilities, the role they play in their communities, and the challenges they face in maintaining and expanding According to a recent study by the Airports Council International North America, commercial airports in the United States support over 12.8
▶ 0:06:41million jobs, 600 18 billion in wages, and 1.8 trillion with a T in economic output. Notably, every additional 1,000 employment employments generate nearly in economic output and supports six additional jobs. We should be working together to increase employments at these airports so all Americans can share these economic benefits.
▶ 0:07:08Fortunately, there are strong federal programs designed to support communities maintaining existing service, expanding service, and attracting new carriers, ultimately increasing employments. Essential Air Service is the most well known of these programs.
▶ 0:07:23In the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024, Congress strengthened and reformed EAS to improve accountability, restore fiscal discipline, and better target limited resources to the communities most in The Small Community Air Service Development Program also grant also gives communities the opportunity to identify their own air service needs, recruit carriers, offer revenue guarantees, conduct studies, and market new service.
▶ 0:07:53Importantly, this program encourages local business investment. This skin in the game approach incentivizes services that are more likely to succeed long-term without subsidies. Lastly, the Airport Improvement Program or AIP distributes resources generated by user fees and fuel taxes by formula to all new public use airports in the NPIAS.
▶ 0:08:20I would be remiss not to recognize the significant progress the Trump administration has made in modernizing uh the air traffic control system. Under Secretary Duffey and Administrator Bedford's leadership, more than 2,000 air traffic controllers they were hired last year. More than 12,000 applied to become controllers this year. 612 new radar systems are being deployed. Half of the outdated copper wiring has already been replaced with modern fiber optics.
▶ 0:08:4917 control towers transition from paper flight strips to electronic systems, and 54 airports now have surface awareness systems. Clearly, the future of American aviation is bright. And with that, I again thank our witnesses for traveling here today, and I look forward to your testimony. I will now recognize ranking member Carson for 5-minute opening statement.
▶ 0:09:12Good morning, and thank you, Chairman DeFazio, Chairman Graves, and ranking member Larsen. It is an honor to be here for our first aviation subcommittee hearing this year. Welcome to our witnesses again for joining today's hearing on trends, opportunities, and challenges facing small communities and rural commercial service airports. Air service for small and rural communities is important to many members of this committee.
▶ 0:09:35While Indianapolis International Airport is one of the busiest in the country, there are four airports in Indiana that have essential air service determinations for routes that connect through Chicago O'Hare Airport. The 2024 FAA reauthorization is actively creating a positive economic impact on small and rural communities preservation of EAS programs and raising the per passenger subsidy caps, improving the alternative EAS program, increasing the small community air service development program
▶ 0:10:06annual authorization level from $10 million to $15 million, and while prioritizing applications that restore flights that have been lost or substantially reduced, and boosting airport improvement programs of funding to $4 billion per year and revising apportionment formula which increased annual formula funds for both large and small airports.
▶ 0:10:30Uh finally, we can all agree that airline passengers, regardless of whether they're flying into a major hub or a non-hub airport in their small communities, deserve one level of safety. This means maintaining and improving the similar pilot training requirements, aircraft certification standards, air traffic control staffing and technology, safety data tracking, and other tools that we use to keep the national airspace system safe. Thank you again to our witnesses.
▶ 0:10:59You all play a very critical role in ensuring continued service to small and rural communities, and I yield back.
▶ 0:11:06The gentleman yields. I now recognize the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Graves, for 5.
▶ 0:11:10Thank you, Chairman Nehls, and I want to thank our witnesses for for all being here. Last year, Congress passed and the president signed into law an historic $12.5 billion investment in our nation's aviation infrastructure. Uh accomplishment that uh I was very proud to have led in the uh in the House. That investment is already delivering meaningful results, as has been or pointed out today already.
▶ 0:11:33Deploying new radars, replacing communications infrastructure, deploying airport surveillance systems, and hiring record of air traffic controllers. There's more to be done, and additional investments are needed to complete this modernization effort, and I'm committed to working with the administration and my colleagues to identify the remaining and find a vehicle to secure those resources that are going to be needed to finish the job.
▶ 0:12:00We must continue to build upon the momentum initiated by last year's historic investment and expeditiously roll out the most modern and safest aviation system possible. Whether they support commercial passenger service or provide public accessibility facilities for general aviation pilots, airports are pillars of our community and drive economic growth and improve the quality of life of all of our communities. Critically, small airports are also the primary training ground for pilots.
▶ 0:12:31We must protect and preserve our freedom to fly for everyone, and whether they are operating a personal aircraft or conducting business aviation or traveling as passengers on commercial airlines. That's why I'm proud that this committee worked in a very bipartisan fashion to pass the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024, and we continue to conduct conduct strong oversight of its implementation.
▶ 0:12:56This bipartisan law made important reforms to the aviation sector by addressing workforce challenges, improving passenger experience, establishing the first-ever general aviation title, and increasing financial supports for our airports nationwide. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:13:14The gentleman yields. I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Larsen.
▶ 0:13:18Thank you, Chairman Nells and Ranking Member Carson, for holding today's hearing on connecting rural America to the national airspace system. I thank the witnesses for joining us today, and we have plenty to discuss. So, I look forward to your testimony. Airports are vital economic engines that power our local communities, especially in small and rural ones, and many of the ones I represent. They serve as critical transportation hubs to safely bring people together.
▶ 0:13:42This will be important in the coming weeks as fans travel across the country and from around the world to watch their favorite teams in the World Cup. And we look forward to welcoming them to the Pacific Northwest, where Seattle and Vancouver will be hosting 13 of those Airports also generate good jobs, stimulate local businesses, and attract financial investment. A 2025 Airports Council International North America study found that airports with commercial service support 12.8 million jobs and produce 1.8 trillion dollars of annual output.
▶ 0:14:12In my district, we have a few small airports, ranging from Arlington Municipal Airport in my hometown, which dates to 1934, uh Orcas Island Airport, Lopez Airport, Friday Harbor Airport, Skagit County Regional Airport, uh I don't want to forget Concrete Airport. Um there's a few more as well. They're going to all going to call me and tell me I forgot to name them. But, Congress recognized the importance of small and rural airports when we passed the 2024 FAA Reauthorization.
▶ 0:14:39The law increases funding for airport the Airport Improvement Program to 4 billion dollars annually, of we of a uh which at least 150 million must be spent on airport climate, noise, or other environmental projects. The law also provides improves the lives of neighboring airport communities by requiring the FAA to develop a plan to transition away from leaded fuel in general aviation by 2030.
▶ 0:15:01So, whether connected via regional airlines, charter flights, or general aviation, these small and rural hubs serve as alternatives to overburdened metropolitan airports. Unfortunately, regional and value airlines uh face specific challenges ranging from workforce uh issues to surging fuel Many of you mentioned in your testimony uh that increased demands on the NAS have also increased demand for skilled aviation workforce. Mr.
▶ 0:15:27Collins, you specifically mentioned the need for more aviation maintenance technicians, while other witnesses reference the increased competition for pilots. To meet these needs without decreasing our safety standards, Congress, the FAA, and stakeholders must expand the talent pipeline and improve efforts to recruit, train, and and retain a robust US workforce from every part of our society.
▶ 0:15:50To address this, the 2024 reauthorization invests $60 million annually in aviation workforce development grants to train the next generation of aviation manufacturing workers, airport maintenance technicians, and pilots. In the Northwest and across this country, aviation means jobs that pay well and are key to long-term economic growth, and I encourage the FAA to quickly implement these programs and distribute these grants in a timely Ms.
▶ 0:16:19Black, your testimony also touches upon small aircraft economics and how increased operation costs have led regional carriers to use a larger, more efficient planes. Mr. Collins and Mr. Pecoraro, you both explained that a factor contributing to this trend is the lack of regional jet manufacturing pipelines, just as there aren't many options for new fuel-efficient regional jets. It's a challenge that the Pacific Northwest is up to tackling.
▶ 0:16:45To help meet these regional aircraft needs, the 2024 bill directed the FAA to bring on much-needed expertise in its aircraft certification office. We have to maintain the certification office's institutional knowledge to meet the requirements of the aircraft certification reform law and grow the agency's technical expertise to better assess new designs.
▶ 0:17:05In this way, when new regional aircraft are designed and proposed, staff at the FAA are there to support that Finally, we can't talk about the small and rural connectivity of airports without discussing the president's actions in Iran has spiked fuel prices, specifically jet fuel. In general, fuel expenses account for a larger share of air carrier budgets than most other industries, making them particularly vulnerable to price fluctuations.
▶ 0:17:30Exacerbating this issue, smaller regional and value air carriers have fewer resources than their larger counterpart parts to absorb these rising operational costs. Consequently, the drastic increase in jet fuel prices places a unique burden, financial burden on regional and value airlines, often forcing these carriers to reduce flight frequencies, further eliminate routes, or increase ticket prices. This directly impacts small and rural communities through rising travel costs or a loss of service altogether.
▶ 0:18:00We can't allow this to happen. The president needs to resolve this fuel price crisis of his own making. As this committee considers the future of rural aviation and small community connectivity, we have to continue investing in the airports, in workforce, and in the innovation that keeps our communities connected to the NAS. We can't ignore the economic pressures facing regional carriers, including rising fuel costs that threaten service to the very communities that depend upon it most.
▶ 0:18:25So, I look forward to into the hearing today, and hearing from today's witnesses on how we can help strengthen rural connectivity, uphold our safety standards, and support American aviation and innovation. Thank you.
▶ 0:18:38The gentleman yields.
▶ 0:18:39Briefly, take a moment to explain our lighting. You guys have been here before. We just keep your remarks to 5 minutes, okay? Uh, I ask unanimous consent that the witnesses' full statements be included in the record without objection, so ordered. I also ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing, without objection, so ordered.
▶ 0:19:03I also ask unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing without objection so ordered. And as your written testimony has been made part of the record, the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks again 5 minutes. With that, Ms. Black, you are recognized.
▶ 0:19:24Thank you, Chairman, ranking member, members of the subcommittee. Thanks for holding this hearing today, and thanks for the opportunity to be here. Last year, regional airlines flew one in three departure and served almost all US airports. We fly to communities of all sizes, but for two-thirds of the nation's airports, we provide the only source of scheduled commercial air service. That service connects people to healthcare, colleges, military bases, and loved ones.
▶ 0:19:50It supports $153 billion in yearly economic output and about a million But rural America still doesn't have the air service that it needs. A pilot shortage that predated the pandemic worsened after it, forcing regional airlines to park about a quarter of the fleet, and pushing small community air service into crisis. Today, overall service is up, but passengers don't experience air service in the aggregate. They experience whether their local airport still has the schedules and destinations that meet their needs.
▶ 0:20:21Today, 193 airports have fewer flights than before the pandemic, and the average loss at those airports is 31% of their flights. 35 have lost more than half their flights. 14 airports have gone dark completely, and smalling smaller airports are faring the worst. Several forces are driving this. First, Safety is the foundation of everything we do, and air traffic control modernization is foundational to safety.
▶ 0:20:49I'm a member of the Modern Skies Coalition, and I support its goals. We cannot leave rural airports behind. The focus on DCA is necessary. The families who lost loved ones last year deserve nothing less. That same vigilance belongs everywhere. Each day, our members fly into small airports, contract towers, and non-towered fields with GA, medical, and military flights, and without the situational awareness tools that are standard elsewhere.
▶ 0:21:18We ask Congress to extend risk-based airport safety reviews, equip contract towers with digital tools so controllers don't separate traffic solely by looking out the window, and we ask Congress to require radio communication at non-towered fields where it's recommended today, but not I thank this committee for embracing ACAS X. It's the future of collision avoidance technology. It depends on ADS-B In, which gives pilots a real-time picture of nearby traffic.
▶ 0:21:47We support And we need to be clear-eyed about the timeline. Some suggest ADS-B In is ready fleetwide now, and that only ACAS X is the long-lead technology. That's not accurate. Both need aircraft-specific development, certification, installation, and supply chain carriers don't control. That's why we support a right-now safety bridge through electronic flight bags that are mounted in the flight deck.
▶ 0:22:12They can be used on every flight, fixed in the pilot's line of sight, and an aircraft cannot dispatch without one. EFBs can deliver ADS-B In with traffic awareness and surface awareness and visual and audible alerts as in-panel systems mature. We should not wait years for safety we can deploy almost now. Second, workforce. Communities can't get air service without pilots. Supply is more stable now than before, but the underlying shortage remains.
▶ 0:22:41Earlier this year, mainline hiring again outpaced new pilot certifications, and we haven't yet fully rebuilt lost air service. And more than a quarter of the workforce must retire within a decade. The pipeline is not keeping up, and one reason is cost. Flight education inherently costs more than other degrees, and federal loans fall about $80,000 short on average. Students without wealth are locked out.
▶ 0:23:08Congress can help by aligning federal student aid with the cost of flight training and allowing GI benefits to cover private pilot certificates. We also support raising the pilot retirement age. It was last raised in 2007 with no safety harm, and pilots already undergo frequent, rigorous testing. This won't end the shortage, but it will help, and it's the right thing to do. Safety depends on pilots being prepared for commercial flight. We're pleased the FAA advanced the congressionally directed enhanced qualification program.
▶ 0:23:39Its safety value lies in the quality, relevance, and rigor of the training, and FAA should implement it with clear, standardized guidance. Next, aircraft. Small communities need aircraft sized to their markets. Oversized aircraft reduce frequency and reduce routes. Congress should be aware that scope clauses do restrict the size, weight, and number of aircraft regionals can fly. Finally, federal programs.
▶ 0:24:04EAS preserves service to many rural communities, and it drove $2.3 billion in economic activity per year before the pandemic. We urge full funding, stable contracts, and timely transitions. SCASD is another tool to attract and keep air service, and we support it. We appreciate your focus on rural connectivity, and we hope you see us as a partner in the work ahead. Thank you for holding this hearing and for including me in it. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:24:30Yeah. Uh thank you, Ms. Black, and thank you for bringing up the pilot shortage. No question about it, but we we choose Congress fires people at 65 and can't justify it for any reason whatsoever. There's nothing No reason to justify terminating qualified pilots at 65. Anyway, I'd like to next recognize Mr. Doberstein. You're recognized, sir.
▶ 0:24:50Chairman Nehls, ranking member Carson, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify to today. My name is Shawn Dobberstein and I serve as the executive director of Hector International Airport in Fargo, North Dakota and as vice chair of the American Association of Airport Executives Air Service Committee. I'm here on behalf of airports that depend on reliable rural air service to connect their communities to the national economy, health care, education, and commerce.
▶ 0:25:17Thank you for the committee's dedication to addressing important aviation matters, especially your contributions to the 2024 FAA reauthorization law. This hearing is another example of this committee's commitment to improving aviation in communities both large and small. Thank you for your continued Rural air service remains under Recovery at many small communities lagged after the pandemic and pilot shortages, higher operating costs including fuel, and airline fleet have all made service harder to sustain.
▶ 0:25:48In many markets, airlines are using larger aircraft and offering fewer departures, which means fewer connection options, less schedule flexibility, and greater disruption when flights are delayed or canceled. At the same time, rural airports face a major infrastructure challenge.
▶ 0:26:04The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act provided historic airport funding, but that support ends after fiscal year Without follow-on investment, airports will face a sharp funding drop just as they are trying to modernize facilities, improve safety, and prepare for future demand including new technologies and new entrants into the airspace.
▶ 0:26:27Congress took important steps in the FAA reauthorization Act of 2024 to support small community air service and the modernization of the national airspace The next step is to make sure rural airports and the communities they serve are not left behind as the system To address these challenges and to protect rural connectivity, I would urge Congress to focus on six priorities.
▶ 0:26:51The first, fully fund the essential air EAS remains the core federal program providing access for communities that would otherwise lose commercial service. Second, strengthen the small community air service development program. SCASD helps communities attract and retain but demand continues to outpace available funding.
▶ 0:27:15provide stable airport infrastructure Congress should protect AIP and extend IIJA-style airport investments so smaller airports can address safety, terminal, runway, and tower needs without facing a funding cliff after fiscal year 2026. support contract towers. Contract towers improve safety and access to smaller Fifth, support aviation workforce programs.
▶ 0:27:44Continued investment in pilots, technicians, and controllers is essential to sustaining and growing Sixth, accelerate modernization of the air traffic control system. A safer, more efficient system benefits the entire country, but is especially important for smaller communities, which are often the first to lose service when the system is In conclusion, rural aviation is not a local issue alone.
▶ 0:28:11It is a national connectivity If we want a strong and resilient aviation system, we must ensure rural communities remain connected to it. Thank you for your time and your attention to rural aviation issues. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:28:26Thank you. Mr. Collins, you're
▶ 0:28:30Chairman Nells, ranking member Carson, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss GAO's work related to air service to small communities in the United States. Communities of all sizes seek access to air service as a driver for attracting investment, generating employment, and providing mobility for citizens.
▶ 0:28:51However, the economics of the airline industry has traditionally made it difficult to establish or sustain viable air service in some smaller communities. My remarks will highlight recent trends in air service to small communities, market factors that have contributed to changes in air service to small communities, and their effects on federal air service programs, and suggestions from stakeholders and recent studies to improve air service to small In general, small communities
▶ 0:29:21continue to face declining passenger air service. From 2018 to 2023, on average, small communities had fewer total departures annually and fewer daily departures per Over the same time period, small communities' connectivity, a measure of a passenger's degree of access to the national aviation system, also These trends are more acute at non-hub airports that do not receive essential air service program
▶ 0:29:51support. For example, from 2018 to 2024, over 70% of these airports experienced a decline in average daily departures per Several market factors have affected air service to small communities. First, consumers have shown that they are willing to drive for cheaper flights or better service.
▶ 0:30:13In addition, stakeholders reported that increased airline operating costs made air service to small communities less economically feasible, contributing to reductions in the air service. These costs have also affected federal air service programs targeted at small From 2018 through 2023, increased airline operating costs contributed to a 31% increase in total EAS subsidies for communities in the lower 48 states.
▶ 0:30:43These costs have also affected the small community air service development program by limiting the impact of the grants that communities use to jump-start new air service. Options that selected stakeholders in recent studies identified to improve air service to small communities include increasing the aviation workforce supply and supporting other transportation modes such as bus service or new technology such as electric aircraft.
▶ 0:31:11In addition, stakeholders identified a range of options to change the essential air service program such as focusing assistance on more remote communities or expanding the program to better ensure small airports do not lose air Stakeholders also identified options to modify the small community air service development program including allocating funding to fewer communities per cycle or shifting the focus of the program away from revenue guarantees.
▶ 0:31:42In conclusion, given limited resources, airlines may allocate those resources for the high highest return. Because of the unique circumstances of each small community airport and market factors, a combination of creative approaches will be needed to ensure connectivity for small communities. This concludes my statement. I'll be happy to answer any questions.
▶ 0:32:05Uh thank you, sir. I now recognize Mr. Picallo. 5 minutes.
▶ 0:32:12Thank you, Chairman Nells, Ranking Member Carson, uh and Ranking Member Larsen, members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you on behalf of the National Association of State Aviation Officials. I appreciate your continued commitment to the small to small community air service and from your opening statements, it's clear that this committee gets it. State agencies directly support small and rural air service in many ways, including financially.
▶ 0:32:40Several states uh provide incentive programs to help communities attract and retain scheduled passenger service. These efforts complement federal programs providing locally responsive support shaped by each community's The challenges facing small community air service are bigger than any one federal program. The nation needs a coordinated strategy.
▶ 0:33:02Small and rural communities face long-standing pressures, aging infrastructure, airline economics, security requirements, limited workforce, and the shrinking availability of appropriately sized Unless these are addressed together, communities will continue to lose We need Congress to direct the USDOT and the FAA in coordination with other agencies and state and local governments to develop and implement a national strategy for small community air
▶ 0:33:33That effort should review existing federal programs, identify actionable recommendations, and define clear responsibilities across government. Continued federal support is The EAS program is an important lifeline for many communities, but it has not kept pace with changes in the airline industry and the broader economy. Communities that successfully exited EAS before the pandemic are now unable to sustain service under current conditions.
▶ 0:34:01Yet existing law makes it extremely difficult for them to reenter. Congress should preserve full funding for both EAS and the small community air service development program, and update eligibility rules so communities who have lost service have a realistic path Infrastructure needs are equally Many small community terminals are aging, undersized, and unable to meet current needs.
▶ 0:34:27General aviation airports face similar funding challenges, even though they may provide some of the most practical near-term platforms for emerging aviation technologies and future service Congress should continue robust air improved airport improvement program funding at the full authorized level and examine long-term changes to better support non-primary entitlements and general aviation infrastructure.
▶ 0:34:54The regional aircraft fleet, vital to many small communities, is in decline. Airlines are moving to fewer, larger aircraft with more favorable economics, while many 50-seat regional jets are reaching the end of their useful lives. When right-sized aircraft disappear, access disappears with them.
▶ 0:35:13It becomes harder for smaller markets to maintain frequency, affordability, and reliable connectivity to the national We must identify and repair and fix the barriers preventing new regional aircraft from entering the market.
▶ 0:35:30workforce shortages continue to affect the entire aviation ecosystem, especially pilot recruitment and NASC encourages Congress to continue to support pathways that improve the pilot In closing, the challenges facing small community air service are structural, compounding, and urgent, but not beyond solving.
▶ 0:35:54With a strategic national approach, continued federal assistance, sustained infrastructure investment, support for right-sized aircraft manufacturing, and expanded workforce development, Congress can help ensure that small communities remain connected to the national aviation system. NASC and the states stand ready to work with you to ensure that small and rural communities have access to the NAS. Thank you again for your leadership and your continued attention to this important issue.
▶ 0:36:24I'd be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
▶ 0:36:27Uh thank you, sir. Uh, thank you all for your testimony. We will now, uh, turn to questions from the panel. I'll recognize myself. I think it just for awareness that I think Miss, uh, Black, you brought it up, but the FAA administrator, Brian Bedford, testified last week at the Senate Commerce hearing that any new integrated system, ACAS X or ADS-B In, is 10 years away. 10 years.
▶ 0:36:53The electronic flight bag option that you mentioned, Fay, uh, can be deployed. It can be done immediately. So, just I just wanted to bring that point up. Uh, Miss Black, too, the, uh, in addition to guaranteeing a safely operated national airspace, we have a responsibility to ensure that rural Americans have an accessible national airspace. The necessity of access for regional aircraft is indisputable. Can you describe any obstacles on the horizon for your carriers and how can Congress hurt, we can hurt or help?
▶ 0:37:24Thank you for the question. Um, I think that the obstacles on the horizon are related to workforce. Uh, certainly we need to have pilots to operate the flights and aircraft related. We need to have the aircraft to operate the flights as well. Um, the risks to each, workforce obviously is that is that we don't have enough. We see that that pipeline is thinning. There are things that we can do to fix it, uh, including right-sizing student loans so more people from working-class backgrounds can get into this career.
▶ 0:37:53And with respect to the fleet, it's important that as we advance safety, that we bring it to communities of every size, but we do it in a way that works with the fleet and not against the fleet or in a way that could ground the fleet. So, to your point of the electronic flight bag, that's a way for us right now to create that level of safety, um, while we pursue integrated systems that the supply chain may not keep up with. Those are the, uh, the biggest, uh, I think risks right now.
▶ 0:38:19Fair enough. Do you have an estimate on how many pilots the regionals will lose to the major carriers over the next 12
▶ 0:38:25The next 12 months did you say? I think I actually saw estimates from 7,500 to 8,500 or so. And to put that into context, the pipeline actually produced about that amount last year, a little bit less actually. And using a 12-month rolling average, it looks to produce about 8,000 or 8,300. So, we're already
▶ 0:38:46Sure. So, so what that really means is that the regionals serve 94% of our our commercial airports. 94%. The mainline carriers serve just 36%. So, that means regionals serve 2/3. They're the only mode of transportation 2/3 of our nation's airports. But yet, you're going to lose all these pilots. And we could see that even we're going to lose more service to more smaller airports as a result of the pilot shortage. It must be addressed this year. It's got to be addressed. Mr.
▶ 0:39:15Dobersen, Fargo, haven't been there, haven't been there, has received a few asked that has that grant awards. The program is appealing because it incentivizes local support of new air services that have the potential to continue unsubsidized. How have you been successful and how has the local economy benefited? And you have any suggestions to strengthen the
▶ 0:39:37Thank you for the question. Yeah, we've been the recipient of four SCASD grants dating back to 2005. The first grant was awarded to us and Delta Airlines implemented service to Salt Lake City. That was done in 2006, but unfortunately the service was suspended in 2008 as Delta reallocated aircraft to Seattle and Los Angeles for other competitive reasons. Our second grant was awarded for service to Dallas back in 2011. And that service is thriving today. It's doing extremely extremely well.
▶ 0:40:07Our third grant was for Seattle service working with Alaska Airlines. Fargo had a large population of Microsoft employees in our community that were traveling back and forth to Seattle. Unfortunately, the the pandemic resulted in more virtual use of their time and a less air travel, so we terminated that grant. And currently today we have a grant on the table right now for implementing service to Charlotte and working with American Airlines on that.
▶ 0:40:33Uh my suggestions would be to uh increase the amount of funding for the SCASDP program, maybe reduce the number of recipients to increase the amount of money each recipient would receive due to the higher costs that are in place today with workforce, fuel, and other things.
▶ 0:40:49Thank you. Mr. Collins, we're aware of the ballooning cost EAS. We've lowered the subsidy cap in the FAA reauthorization. It will help. You have talked about the successes of SCASDP where projects with a local match are more competitive. Two questions. Uh would the solvency of EA EAS benefit from the small sort of small local investment? And what else can be done to reduce costs and increase our return on investment in the EAS?
▶ 0:41:14So with with respect to uh EAS costs, we do have ongoing work uh related to uh looking at uh ideas that stakeholders have uh for uh reducing uh those those
▶ 0:41:30Uh I will now recognize Mr. Carson for
▶ 0:41:33Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um I'm curious. I I I oppose the administration's proposal to limit federal student loans for some of the programs that produce the most qualified pilots. Can you talk about the financial costs uh to becoming a commercial pilot and how updating federal student loan eligibility could level the playing field and attract more diverse talent?
▶ 0:41:58I thank you for the question and for the interest. Uh you know, the first step to becoming a professional pilot is the pilot private is a private pilot license. So one thing we can do is actually outside the student loan uh program is allow the GI bill to fund that. Today, the rules exclude that, so that's just a common-sense fix that we can make uh to allow the GI bill, those earned benefits, to cover the full spectrum uh of pilot training.
▶ 0:42:22With respect to student loans, right now uh it can cost, you know, almost $200,000 or so, and flight training's inherently expensive. If you think about it, you've got aircraft, insurance, fuel, specialized instructors, so these are not ordinary college costs, and the federal student loan apparatus was just not designed to support those costs. These are great money good opportunities, they're transformational careers, but you got to be able to get there.
▶ 0:42:48Uh the gulf that the exists between the caps of student loans and the actual cost is upwards of $80,000, and so with families without access to wealth or private capital, that gap is what are the biggest infrastructure needs of small hub and and small airports have? Small airport infrastructure needs evolve because of changes in airline airlines up-gaging from smaller planes [clears throat] to larger planes.
▶ 0:43:21Sorry, the question was to me about the economics of small aircraft?
▶ 0:43:24Yeah. Um I think this is this is a complex um cyclical kind of conversation. Sometimes we hear that uh the reason that these smaller aircraft are not in the market anymore is the economics don't support it. In reality, we had a pilot shortage that absolutely collapsed command. Uh it absolutely collapsed uh capacity. And as a result, the economics changed on those uh smaller uh smaller markets.
▶ 0:43:52You have different pilot compensation costs, and by the way, I think that was a good and valuable investment, but it did change the economics. And you also have network carriers that are trying to parcel limited supply, and so they do that by up-gaging, by seeking to move more passengers at once. The problem is when you up gauge because you have to, because you're trying to, you know, fill a need, not because the demand requires it, you lose destination options and you lose frequency and then even fewer passengers use that route because if they have the option to drive, they might.
▶ 0:44:22Of course, not everybody can drive, but those are the ways that something starting with the pilot shortage can weaken those economics and undermine the market.
▶ 0:44:31And and lastly, um I authored I authored federal requirements for secondary barriers, controversial at first, um in commercial passenger aircraft. Airlines and aircraft manufacturers have been making progress, but in the last few weeks, there have been multiple attempts by unruly passengers uh to try to gain access to the cockpit or other doors. Where are your members Where are your member airlines in installing secondary barriers? Is this Is it still controversial?
▶ 0:45:01Has it been more embraced over the years?
▶ 0:45:05I I think there's no controversy about the requirement. We understand the rule and we intend to comply. Um what you may be referencing is the fact that, and again, this speaks to the supply chain, um in the timeline that was provided to comply with this, our manufacturer came up with a solution, um but the facts are regional aircraft don't look like mainline aircraft. We've got, you know, a different forward lav, different setup, and so installing a door works on a narrow body or a wide body, but you can't install a door on a regional.
▶ 0:45:35So, when that actually came to uh market and was installed, we did find some safety and some occupational issues that we had to be I had to be worked through. And so, that's why you see some of these requests for an additional period of time to comply. Uh but the goal is to get those secondary barriers installed and complete and trained.
▶ 0:45:54Thank you, ma'am. I yield back.
▶ 0:45:56The gentleman yields, and I now recognize Mr. Larsen.
▶ 0:46:03Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um Smallman [clears throat] So, I have a little more time. Yeah, Mr. Um Ferraro I'd like to ask you the same question that was just asked of Ms.
▶ 0:46:23Black about um the cost efficiency fuel efficiency of a 50 to 100 seater and whether or not um whether or not you think that helps us solve the issues. Is that a beneficial beneficial option for regional airports, the smaller airports? Thank you, uh Mr. Larson.
▶ 0:46:44I think, you know, when we think about when we look at the economics of of air travel, I think it's pretty clear that, you know, if you have a large if you have larger aircraft going into a community less frequently what that does it drives people who wanted to travel on a Tuesday, but the aircraft doesn't leave until Wednesday to make the choice to drive 6 or 8 hours or whatever it is to to the next commercial airport that they need to get to.
▶ 0:47:11Um that's going to result in fewer people actually taking that aircraft, so instead of having, you know, reasonably [clears throat] full 50 seat aircraft, you're going to have, you know, a you know, maybe, you know, a third 1/3 full larger aircraft. Um You know, the airlines are going to find that less sustainable. And it creates a cycle where people are going to make the choice that they're going to find other ways to get places.
▶ 0:47:36what that does to the community is it decreases their access to air service, it decreases their access to, you know, business opportunities, economic development, health care delivery services, other professional services, um tourism. And so, it creates a vicious cycle, and so, yeah, I it it's self-defeating in a larger sense.
▶ 0:47:57So, that's why I think that, you know, if if aircraft were available and the market could choose the right size aircraft that were available to fit different communities, uh you know, we'd see much more robust activity in these communities.
▶ 0:48:10All right, thanks. Um Mr. Collins, I noted in your testimony that uh yours you have started or you are studying um high school programs that support aviation maintenance technicians and think about think about the workforce. Are you do do you have a timeline when you expect to finish that?
▶ 0:48:31We hope to have that work completed in 2027. I can reach out to your staff and give you a more direct timeframe.
▶ 0:48:37All right. And related then, have you looked at the uh have we asked you to look at the uh the aviation workforce development grant I noted that uh uh the administration has has come out with a NOFO on it. I'm a little disappointed with the with the NOFO, but have you looked at the grant program that we first created in 2018? I know it's section 25 625 grants.
▶ 0:49:03I'll need to get back with your staff to see if we've had any prior work and then to see if that uh grant program will be a part of any upcoming work.
▶ 0:49:11Yeah, great. Thanks. I appreciate that um very much. Um Ms. Black, [clears throat] can you explain um or no, please explain how this unexpect- unexpected fuel shock um has impacted carriers.
▶ 0:49:24Absolutely. There are two business models that govern govern regional airline uh the way that we bring passengers to larger airlines and through the system. One is capacity purchase agreement. That's where essentially we operate the flight with our aircraft and our crews and maintenance, but the major airline sets this the fare and pays the fuel. So, we're not necessarily directly impacted under those um under those business relationships, but the market dynamics are.
▶ 0:49:52And on a smaller uh smaller flight, again with fewer seats over which to absorb cost in a thin market that's already fragile in terms of margins, those economies can get to upside down pretty quickly and that's why even though we don't necessarily write the checks for the fuel, it can impact the communities that we serve.
▶ 0:50:09Great. And And uh Mr. Dobberstein, have you seen the impact of that experience in the last 12 or 13 weeks on the fuel prices?
▶ 0:50:19Uh definitely. Um you know, certainly increased cost to our passengers in our region has had an impact uh on their financial ability and so forth. But yeah, we definitely have seen an impact on that as well.
▶ 0:50:32Has that meant fewer employments um out of Fargo?
▶ 0:50:35Not necessarily. Um we've we've been fortunate to have record employments so far since January of this year. But uh we do expect it to go up.
▶ 0:50:44More complaints, yes, that's correct,
▶ 0:50:46Roughly, yes, sir. Um Thank you. Um Uh so when we increase the uh sorry, we'll be quick here. When when we increase the AIP to $4 billion annually, we also the uh large portion of the increase went to small smaller airports. Have you been able to take advantage of that particular set of dollars?
▶ 0:51:09Yes, sir. We're in the middle of a major terminal expansion project in Fargo. It's about $110 million and um and we've been working with our congressional delegation and the FAA to obtain those funds, yes.
▶ 0:51:21That's great. I appreciate it. Thanks very much.
▶ 0:51:24Thank you.
▶ 0:51:25Gentlemen, yields. I now recognize Mr.
▶ 0:51:28Thanks, Mr. Chairman, and thank the witnesses for being here. The purpose of this hearing is to highlight some of the issues hindering air service to small communities and look at the federal programs intended to support those unfortunately, I think I I I like to have a discussion about this.
▶ 0:51:46We keep on throwing money after what seems to be economically unfeasible routes and these market interventions have in turn created additional problems that we want to address. But the answer always seems to be throw more money at it and I'm not sure that's the best answer and certainly I don't believe that's the sustainable answer.
▶ 0:52:09It's the inevitable result of a program like EAS and I know each one of you I think has supported it and said that we should actually do more of it. But it does allow the government to choose winners and losers based on all often times political calculations as opposed to actual service needs. The program was created by the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 as a temporary remind everybody temporary program as the industry was deregulated.
▶ 0:52:38It's a perfect example of nothing no government program really being temporary. It's nearly 50 years later and the program remains in place receiving 687 .5 million dollars in FY26.
▶ 0:52:54In recent years the program costs have skyrocketed skyrocketed increasing 31% from 2018 to 2024 and there seems to be little incentive to maximize productivity because the government just pays for it.
▶ 0:53:10These the subsidy does pick winners and losers among airports and communities as neighboring airports compete against that are subsidized by taxpayers at the federal government level for essentially the same market in many cases making matters worse. The DOT has approved subsidies for EAS funded leisure routes creating even more government funded competition for non-EAS airports.
▶ 0:53:35Moreover the AS program as well as SCASP program have created perverse incentive for airlines that damage the ability of non EAS or airports to compete for their subsidized neighbor airports as they're forced into a pay-to-play revenue guarantee scheme just to attract the service.
▶ 0:53:56Now, Congress has acknowledged the unfairness of these subsidies and for neighboring airports when creating the program and it structured it to alleviate the most obvious economic harm created by the issue, which is banning access to EAS subsidies within 70 miles of a medium of medium and large hub airports and placing reasonable restrictions within 175 miles.
▶ 0:54:20Those restrictions have not applied to small hub airports, however, and uh those are the ones that have far more limited financial resources to withstand the competition um and they could actually benefit for from an additional employment.
▶ 0:54:38As a result, the end we end up with absurd outcomes like you have in the district that I'm honored to represent where Harrisburg International Airport is forced to compete with an EAS subsidized airport 32 miles away. I'm not trying to punish that airport. I mean, I'm happy for those folks and I I've landed at the airport. We we're happy that it's there.
▶ 0:55:01But but I have to defend the airport that in the airport system that I Uh this is uh to Mr. Collins, do you think applying the pre-existing restrictions to small hub airports would help foster a more fair environment that doesn't force airports to compete with neighboring funded neighbors that are funded by their own tax dollars?
▶ 0:55:26So, we've not taken a position on that particular issue. Ultimately, those are
▶ 0:55:30I have to take a position on that issue. So, we're here to discuss that and it'd be great if the experts, so to speak, would weigh in with something other than, "Yeah, the situation sucks, but we don't have an answer, so you all figure it out." That's why we're having to discuss like that It's essentially what we're saying here, right? So, can you I mean, you're saying you don't take Does anybody take a position
▶ 0:55:52I What I can say is in our discussions with stakeholders, some have noted that perhaps with EAS, it should be uh targeted to those uh communities that are {quote} "truly remote", uh which again is a a decision for uh Congress to make, but to your point, there are voices that uh understand that the subsidies can create distortions in the market, and you know, ultimately again, it's up to you all to decide
▶ 0:56:23uh which
▶ 0:56:24be good to have some like some information from you folks that live this day in and day out. Look, I'm a fan of airports. I used to fly and land at them. We're not building any new ones, so we want to retain the ones that we have. We all get that, but what market-based reforms do you think that can be made to help these airports grow without throwing, you know, more tax dollars to make them compete against the the very money that they earn uh against their competitors just a few miles away.
▶ 0:56:53And then, like I said, we're not mad at their competitors. We want them to remain, too, but there's got to be some market-based approaches because the government has sought to fix this problem. They haven't fixed the problem, and the answer is to throw more money at it, which tends to make either the problem worse for the for the airport that's not participating or create a whole new problem, which we're not
▶ 0:57:15Gentleman's run out of time. You may have to send them an email.
▶ 0:57:20I now recognize Ms. Shalden for 5
▶ 0:57:23Thank you so much, Chair Neils and uh Ranking Member Carson, for holding this really uh uh, important hearing. The Essential Air Service Program is truly a lifeline in my district and throughout other portions of rural America. Muskegon County Airport is a key connector to West Michigan and since changing EAS providers, the airport and surrounding region has seen incredible growth.
▶ 0:57:49In just 1 year, MKG has seen a increase in passenger activity, uh, through support from the EAS program and enplanement at the airport has increased by nearly 200% putting it on a clear path to return to primary airport status.
▶ 0:58:08Additionally, the airport has made measurable progress in reducing its EAS support from $484 per passenger in 2025 to an expected $300 or less in 2026.
▶ 0:58:23This is significant progress and it's why I'm so concerned about proposed statutory changes to the EAS program outlined in the President's FY2027 The proposed changes would eliminate EAS budget, uh, eligibility for communities within 75 miles of small, medium, or large hub airports.
▶ 0:58:44Additionally, the language would eliminate program eligibility for communities whose per passenger subsidy exceeds $350 in the most recent fiscal year regardless of distance from the hub. If the If the President's proposals were enacted, rural communities, including Muskegon, would be cut off from critical aviation and effectively the rest of the The demands for these services are real and will not simply disappear.
▶ 0:59:11Costs with this Costs will be displaced onto residents and businesses looking to grow their workforce. Uh, Mr. Pecoraro, can you please speak to the economic impacts associated with use of EAS programs, as well as how limiting access to the program would hurt local job growth and tourism.
▶ 0:59:35Thank you, Ms. Shelton. Uh first let me thank you for mentioning Muskegon County Airport. It is a great success story uh in uh Michigan and we're very pleased at how well they're doing there. I would note that in Michigan, in addition to that, uh Michigan DOT's office of aeronautics operates a commercial air service development program providing annual grants to commercial service airports across four areas: capital improvements and equipment, air carrier recruitment and retention, airport marketing, aircraft rescue firefighting
▶ 1:00:06State engagement in these uh in these opportunities is critical for airports and I think that, you know, in Michigan, we're seeing great examples of how that works and, you know, we'd love to see what we'd love to see it when state aviation agencies have the resources to be able to support those types of programs. And I think that that's a great example of what's necessary to to the point of your question, is that you know, we need a holistic approach to solving this problem. That it's it's bigger than any one airport, any one any one federal program, any one state.
▶ 1:00:37You know, there needs to be a larger approach to this to really try and get these whole this whole range of problems in order to make an airport uh ecosystem healthy. And so, that's what we're encouraging and that's what we support
▶ 1:00:49It's absolutely what we're seeing on the ground uh as well. So, thank you for that. Uh uh keeping on with the economic development, uh families across the nation are feeling the pain at the gas pump. As the president continues unauthorized military action in Iran, um we are so proud of the War Powers Resolution that we got passed uh in the House of Representatives yesterday to give the people their their voice over this issue.
▶ 1:01:17In the aviation sector, fuel is a major operating expense. So, increased prices could drive up costs. While higher fuel prices may not always result in a complete loss of service, they can absolutely make it more difficult to operate smaller aircrafts on routes that already have really thin margins. You know I'm coming to you, Ms. Black. You're already nodding. In your written testimony, you touch on the threat of jet fuel prices to small communities.
▶ 1:01:42Can you describe how fuel costs influence decisions about route frequency, aircraft deployment, and service to smaller communities?
▶ 1:01:51I'm going to start with the mechanics of the of the cost because that's the part that we control. And when you deploy a small aircraft, whether that's 50 or 76 seats, you know, you don't amortize the cost, whether it's labor or fuel, the same way that you do over 135, 150, 300 seats, right? So, the math is just very different. And when you're going into small communities, they have fewer passengers traveling. So, these are already fragile markets.
▶ 1:02:18And in that way, it can become unprofitable very quickly. So, it's not just a matter of our costs are lower here, but we're actually in the red. Where those actual deployment decisions lie are with our major airline partners, but we can tell you that when when capacity is extracted from the system, it's typically regional capacity, and it's typically the smaller communities that are impacted first, in part because that inconveniences the fewest amount of travelers. But unfortunately, for those in rural communities, it can be very
▶ 1:02:49I'm Thank you. Same over my time, so I'll yield back. Thanks for the
▶ 1:02:54Mr. Stauber, you're recognized.
▶ 1:02:57Chairman Nells, ranking member Carson, let's get some spice into this meeting. We're talking about rural America, rural airports. Fargo, Duluth, Hibbing, Bemidji, Brainerd, International Falls, they matter. Our rural communities matter. I'm so proud of each and every one of you talking about rural America and rural aviation. Our communities need it. And this is a bipartisan issue.
▶ 1:03:22The vast majority of us support rural America, rural aviation, the connection therefore. We're not taking a backseat. None of you at that dais are taking a backseat, and I'm so proud of you. Mr. Oberstar, $100 million in Fargo. That's spectacular. We have $20 million investment in the third oldest control tower in America, the Duluth air traffic control tower. We're getting a brand new one, 21st century.
▶ 1:03:52I'm excited about these programs, and I'm excited to invest in rural America. We've taken a backseat long enough. I know each and every one of you are proud of your rural airports in They matter to those communities.
▶ 1:04:09We shouldn't have to drive six or eight We shouldn't have the air airlines saying we're going to bring bigger aircraft, 300-seat aircraft, we're not filling them, so we're only going to come every third day or every We need everyday service in our rural communities, and one of the one of the questions that was asked was the the 50-seat passenger aircraft.
▶ 1:04:30Maybe maybe we should talk to the aircraft manufacturers and work on getting more because we our our rural airports serve the metro, the major The value that we the rural aviation brings to our economies and to the United States of America is incredible. You folks are the best spokespersons for that, and I'm proud of you. Mr.
▶ 1:04:54Oberstar, how do federal investments in rural and regional airport infrastructure like the Duluth air traffic control tower help grow surrounding communities and ensure the viability of regional flights for the foreseeable future?
▶ 1:05:09Thank you, Congressman, for the for the question. Well, it's imperative. I I guess my matter has always been that it three entities to support infrastructure investment in rural airports. It's the federal government, it's the state government, as well as the local community. Without those three working together, it'd be impossible to fund airport infrastructure projects of the magnitude that we're doing in Fargo and other small rural communities around the
▶ 1:05:34Yeah, it's it's that it's that partnership. You say local, state, and federal. That's exactly what we did in uh Duluth ATC. Uh Mr. Pecararo, in what ways can programs like the Essential Air Service and the Small Community Air Service Development Program adapt to meet the needs of the community, the specific issues within the communities?
▶ 1:05:56Thank you, uh Mr. Stober. That's a um that's an important uh question. I think that the way that, you know, we'd like to see, you know, both EAS and Small Community Air Service Program work together is to look at the look at the larger needs of these communities and figure out in the in the many years since, you know, these programs have been created, how has the industry changed? And I think that's a critical point to make, you know, the the way that the airline industry operated 40 years ago or more when these programs were created is very different than it is today.
▶ 1:06:27And so, the way we're going to serve these communities and support them is going to be very different than it was back then. And so, that's what's necessary is to bring together, you know, all the stakeholders, including state and local governments, to sit down with uh federal agencies uh to figure out exactly what we need to do to retool these programs, to make them more cost-efficient, to make sure that there is local support for them because we don't expect the federal government to do it all by itself. Um and to make sure that we're able to provide the type of service that all these communities need.
▶ 1:06:57You know, and I I I appreciate that answer. I like uh the ability for our local community regional airports to make some of the decisions themselves, not be tied uh so tight to demands. I I I think you'd agree, allow our local communities have some flexibility in their designer or or passenger experience. Would you agree with that?
▶ 1:07:20Yes, sir. And we also think that, you know, looking to the future that general aviation airports also have an important role to play, particularly as emerging aeronautical technologies provide some new opportunities for people to access the aviation system.
▶ 1:07:34Yeah. Well, listen, I I I'm so excited. I I couldn't wait for this hearing because you are all proponents of what we believe in, rural aviation. We're not going to take a backseat, okay? We're going to be loud and proud supporting our our small rural communities because we matter. Those of us who live in rural America matter, and you guys are in the in the fight with us, and I know that the chairman and ranking member are as well. I yield back.
▶ 1:07:59Love the passion, Pete. I love it. Ms. Gillen, you're recognized.
▶ 1:08:03Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, ranking member, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I am proud to represent New York's fourth congressional district on the South Shore of Long Island, which is the home to TRACON N90, which manages the most complex and congested airspace in our country. As I saw firsthand when I visited, this facility relies on outdated technology, posing a serious safety risk for the region and for our skies across the country.
▶ 1:08:33We must do more to invest in the safety of our airspace and give our controllers the resources that they need. It's equally important that we invest resources in our airport towers, large and small. My district abuts two of the most busy hubs in the country, JFK and LaGuardia Airport, but also smaller airports on the East End of Long and I believe all of these airports deserve our support.
▶ 1:09:00The smaller airports participate in the FAA's contract tower program, which allows the airports to contract out uh operation of their towers to save these systems money and enhance safety. Unfortunately, many of these contract towers lacks lack access to real-time situational awareness tools that are now the standard at the larger airports and that enhance the controllers visibility of aircraft operations.
▶ 1:09:27Last month, my colleague Congressman Begich and I worked together to introduce bipartisan air traffic situational awareness awareness enhancement act, which would help close this gap by requiring the FAA to acquire and install these tools at contract towers and establish a training program to ensure controllers can effectively integrate and use them. I appreciated uh Ms. Black mentioning this important initiative in her testimony. So, Ms.
▶ 1:09:53Black, I'd like to give you a chance to speak a little bit about this important issue and how critical it is that we address the safety gap and move our legislation through Congress.
▶ 1:10:03Thank you, Congressman. And thank you uh very much for your bill. Um when we talk about air traffic control modernization at smaller communities, sometimes that just means doing the basics. And as you recognized, uh some of the towers don't have radar. They don't have ADSB-N in the tower. They don't have that advanced digital situational awareness. And so, they're looking out the window to separate aircraft visually. That is risk in the system and it's something that we can mitigate right now. Your bill would do it.
▶ 1:10:32We're strong supporters um and count on us to help you advance it because it should be passed.
▶ 1:10:38Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And as I mentioned, TRACON and N90, the air traffic control facility for managing the New York airspace, is located in my district. And N90 controllers are responsible for managing air traffic in and out of two of the busiest airports in the world, JFK and LaGuardia, in addition to the smaller regional airports in the region like Republic Airport in Farmingdale and MacArthur Airport in Islip.
▶ 1:11:03Despite their role managing the busiest airspace in the country, the N90 facility is among the most outdated and understaffed. While our aerospace industry continues to innovate and evolve, our controllers at N90 still work with floppy disks and paper strips. Uh Mr. Doberstein, in your testimony, you mentioned the impact of air traffic control constraints on smaller communities like yours. Can you elaborate more on the problems that these smaller communities face today because of our lack of investment?
▶ 1:11:34Well, one example would be the um reduction in our frequencies to Chicago. Earlier this year, one of our carriers announced that they were going to add service to Chicago, additional capacity opportunities for our passengers, and then as the cap came in place between the FAA at Chicago O'Hare, uh those flights were taken out. So, our community is going to miss out on that additional frequencies and opportunities for our traveling public in our region.
▶ 1:11:57Yeah, thank you. Uh Mr. Pecoraro, you spoke in your testimony about the potential of advanced air mobility to transform how people and goods are moved. I've met with AAM companies and I'm excited by the opportunities that their aircraft present to reduce airplane noise and traffic congestion in my community on Long Island and across our country. Can you briefly talk about the potential for these new aircraft and the barriers that smaller airports like Republic and MacArthur may face in supporting their
▶ 1:12:27Sure. Thank you, Ms. Gillen. Yes, uh uh briefly, I'll just say that uh we think that uh while AAM is not a short-term solution, certainly it has tremendous potential in the longer term to provide a great deal of additional access for people in a cleaner and quieter fashion. And we think that's going to certainly important, particularly in uh in your districts like yours where that's a concern of many residents.
▶ 1:12:50We think that one of the most exciting parts in short in the short term shorter term of providing this type of access is for fixed-wing hybrid aircraft to be able to provide, you know, regional aircraft, you know, as we're talking about, you know, access to smaller communities to maybe, you know, sub support or replace some of the, you know, aircraft that, you know, we're talking about earlier that are, you know, phasing out of their life life cycle.
▶ 1:13:20Thank you. I look forward to working with you on this going forward.
▶ 1:13:23Gentlewoman yields and I now recognize Mr. Owens.
▶ 1:13:27Thank you, Mr. Chairman and ranking member. I appreciate today's hearing on connecting rural America to national systems and the chance to look hard at whether our policies are actually delivering for small communities. We rightly tout the safest, most advanced air airspace in the world, but too many of our rural families, the more basic question is whether they can access access it at all. With small town airports lose meaningful service, the only option becomes hours on the road to reach a hub.
▶ 1:13:56That means lost jobs, missed medical appointments, and young people who have simply stayed home instead of chasing opportunity. And small businesses and local economies that depend on these flights feel it immediately. In the 2024 FAA reauthorization, Congress and President Trump laid out a road map for rural aviation, strengthening essential air service and increasing airport improvements funding for airports that keep rural America connected. The FAA now has more authority and resources to support small communities than it has had in years.
▶ 1:14:26And I appreciate the they are who are trying to put these tools to work. But folks back home just assess not by what they just assess by what they see on the departure board, not by what's written on in statute. They see flights disappearing from small and non-hub airports. They see fares that climb faster in smaller markets than big hubs, and they see airlines consolidating services services into a handful of major airports. The message we hear is is simple.
▶ 1:14:55If federal support and subsidies are on the table, they need to translate into real opportunities for rural travelers, not just the good intentions. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today what target steps this subcommittee and the Trump administration should take next to make sure rural Americans get more than just a a few promises on Uh with that, I'll move on with my questions. Uh Ms.
▶ 1:15:18Black, [clears throat] in the rural in rural states like Utah, many small airports never see a regional may never see a regional jet again, but they may reserve res- but they could receive a support advance air mobility and point-to-point connectivity that underserved communities need.
▶ 1:15:36With companies like Beta Technologies already active in Utah ahead of Olympics and DOT DOT leadership, probably public publicly highlighting these opportunities, what does the regional airport industry need to see from Congress to ensure small airports are not left behind as AAM scales? And and are we putting the right infrastructure and certification framework in place to make that happen?
▶ 1:16:03Thank you for the question. We're very excited about AAM technology. Unlike a lot of investments, this is coming to market on the smaller side of capacity on the regional side, so we're excited about it. At the same time, some of these developments are 5-10 years away, so we do still need to have investment in the fleet that can serve markets right now. In terms of helping airports prepare for bringing this technology online, I think some of the support may be financial.
▶ 1:16:27They need to be able to meet the needs of the new aircraft, having charging infrastructure, change the way that we're dealing with propulsion in the maintenance. And so I think in, you know, continuing to look at that will be really important. At the FAA, it's important that they have the ability to certify these new technologies as they come online and help to integrate them into the system safely. Uh Ms. Collins, the GAO has been tracking small community air service for years.
▶ 1:16:52If you look strictly at the data since 2024 FAA reauthorization, including new subsidy uh SCASD increases, and AIP changes, do you see any early signs that these reforms are stabilizing the service at small and non-hub airports, or we're still on the same downward trajectory in terms of departure and connectivity?
▶ 1:17:17Our work has shown that we're still on the same uh downward trajectory. I think one of the challenges with the SCASD grants is um you know, they're facing uh cost pressures and can't always uh provide the uh minimum revenue guarantees that airlines uh are demanding, and uh that makes it difficult for them to uh attract, and then once they've attracted, continue service. Uh Mr.
▶ 1:17:46uh Piccirillo, okay. Uh setting federal policy aside for a moment, what is the most effective thing state aviation agencies can do right now with the tools already in hand to strengthen rural air service? Whether it's that's targeted state grant programs, coordinated marketing, or smart system planning, what does a gold standard state playbook look like in your view?
▶ 1:18:08Um thank you, Mr. Owens. Um Certainly, you know, system planning is always critical. You know, to be able to look ahead and understand what the changing needs of the community are going to be so that we can help those local airports plan for that service is is always critical. Um the second most important thing, I think, is the partnership the state aviation agencies have with the federal with the FAA.
▶ 1:18:30You know, state agencies work closely with the FAA from the headquarters to the regional offices to the you know, airport district offices to make sure that the right funds are flowing to airports in in accordance with that system plan so that we can try and meet the infrastructure needs of those airports. And that's, you know, that's a great deal of what your state uh agencies are concerned with is trying to make sure that the infrastructure is right. Beyond that, and I would say looking to the future, you know, we've got to look to, you know, how we want to develop the airports of the future.
▶ 1:19:00And so, we appreciate this committee in the reauthorization bill, you know, creating planning grants so that uh you know, airports and state aviation agencies are going to be looking at those issues in the near term so that we'll be be prepared for the future.
▶ 1:19:14Thank you. Now, I yield back.
▶ 1:19:15Gentleman yields and I'll recognize Ms.
▶ 1:19:20Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh I represent the first district in Nevada. That's the heart of Southern Nevada, includes Las Vegas. But you also have the Henderson Airport and the Boulder City Airport and the traffic is increasing to both of those. General Aviation as people come in to Las Vegas for all these big events that we are anticipating.
▶ 1:19:42Uh we've got 40 million visitors a year and travel and tourism contribute 86 billion dollars to our economy. So, this is the key to our success and survival. Uh as a member of this committee, I've always had a priority to get uh be sure that everybody has access. We want people to come from everywhere to Las Vegas. So, if it's small town, rural, big city, we want them to have that kind of access that's convenient and affordable.
▶ 1:20:12And we know that their experience in Las Vegas begins the minute they get to the airport or get on the plane. It doesn't start once they get to the to the strip. So, a federal assistance like the Small Community Air Service Let me get this right. Small Community Air Service Development Program has helped people from all kind of different regions.
▶ 1:20:35I think a couple of years ago both Salem, Oregon and Corpus Christi, Texas received some of this funding that supported marketing and revenue sharing for Las Vegas routes. So that can I ask you, Ms. Black, how would you speak to the contribution of regional airlines to travel and tourism?
▶ 1:20:58How does travel and tourism impact your members' decisions of what routes to add and are there any emerging markets that you all are looking at or changing up like Southern
▶ 1:21:12Thank you for the question. Um regional air service to the smallest communities alone, I'll start with the big one, is the economic impact. It drives $153 billion in yearly economic activity. And that's probably a conservative estimate because we weren't able to capture all the downstream that you're talking about that really does generate, but the part that is missing from that equation is the quality of life and the ability to connect to places like Las Vegas from wherever you are.
▶ 1:21:38Uh sometimes we treat driving and flying like it's neutral exchange and it's not. It's actually there's a safety benefit as well uh because last year almost 40,000 people lost their lives on the highways. Flying is much safer, so air transportation is part of a safer transportation system. Um when it comes to the programs that support it, EAS similarly is a force multiplier. It drove 2.3 billion dollars of active uh economic activity uh before the pandemic, supported 17,000 jobs.
▶ 1:22:06These are just some of the ways that air service is extremely valuable and we should continue to to uh keep supporting
▶ 1:22:13Well, thank you. You know, part of this access to is affordability. And so I'd ask you, Mr. Collins, we have seen that domestic airfare from most of the small communities has increased at a higher rate than from the major carriers. Is there a a reason for that for domestically and something we need to be doing to address it to help with that
▶ 1:22:36So, we've not done specific work looking at the changes in airfares. What I can say is that, you know, generally the increased operating costs have having an effect uh uh for all routes within the country.
▶ 1:22:54I I know that's true, but I think there's some statistics that show it's increased more for these small regional airlines than for the the bigger ones. I thought maybe there's a reason for that.
▶ 1:23:06Yeah, we've not done any work to to specify that.
▶ 1:23:09Economies of scale maybe. Okay, well, domestic travel is more important than ever right now because international tourism is down. Uh we certainly see it from Canada and Mexico and Las Vegas and all across the country people aren't coming here. It's it's more expensive, the gas is higher, the rhetoric is negative, the visa process is lengthy and complicated. We're adding fees to national parks.
▶ 1:23:38That's That's not helping with tourism. Adding uh requirements for looking at your social media to get a visa. That's not helpful for tourism. So, the more y'all can do internally uh the better. I would just mention real briefly getting the TIFIA eligibility in the recent move 250 bill seems to be uh something that will will perhaps help you with the infrastructure of your airports. Are y'all involved in that or aware of that or
▶ 1:24:08Uh yes, ma'am. You know, that's certainly a valuable tool that many airports use.
▶ 1:24:13And I would just say if I could, you know, Elko Airport in Nevada, I'm not sure if that's in your district.
▶ 1:24:17Oh, it's not. I'm I'm not aware of it.
▶ 1:24:19That's been one of the the real success stories using the small community air program to restore midday service to the
▶ 1:24:27Great. Then you don't have to drive all that way on the loneliest highway to get from Elko to Reno.
▶ 1:24:32Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:24:32Long way. Thank you very much. I yield back.
▶ 1:24:35The gentle lady yields and I'll recognize Mr. Barr.
▶ 1:24:38Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for your testimony and I think as we look at the nature of what we're discussing today, too often we talk about rural communities like the area that I serve or other small towns and medium-size communities across our country, especially in the Midwest. We call those flyover country. Well, those aren't flyover country. They're areas where people take off and land and go about their business that they need to connect to the national airspace and get to their destination.
▶ 1:25:08You know, I take the flight from Lansing here to Washington D.C. right you know, from my district close to home and can arrive here safely and in time for you know, the responsibilities in the business of the day that I have here as a member of Congress and that's an important thing that I appreciate and other people are on that flight, you know, they're connecting to somewhere else at Washington D.C. or whether they're they have business here connecting our state capital with our nation's capital is an important piece.
▶ 1:25:34Um but that's true of every, you know, regional airport we have throughout our country that it connects people to the places they need to go or to the next stop in their travel ultimately to their final destination. Um Mr. right? Did I say that correctly? I know you were talking to my colleague Ms. Scholten about some of the synergy between the state of Michigan and our aviation office there and some of the federal programs and everything.
▶ 1:26:00I was curious um one of the things we're proud of in in Michigan and Lansing in particular is there's this shared collaboration with Lansing Community College around their maintenance um program they have through Lansing Community College at a municipal airport outside of Lansing that they train students on for aircraft maintenance.
▶ 1:26:22It can be a tremendous career and can help kind of break through some of that shortage that we have now and was curious if you had any thoughts on that or any of the work that's being done through kind of an innovative way that we've seen in in my
▶ 1:26:35Sure. Thank you, Mr. Barrett. I don't know the specific specifics of that particular, you know, relationship, but I do know that as I've traveled around the country, you know, visiting with state aviation agencies and and talking with them, that is not an uncommon relationship and that you find frequently that, you know, state aviation agencies, local airports, um local educational facilities, particularly those who are providing, you know, that type of aeronautical training have developed really valuable partnerships because nowhere
▶ 1:27:05else nowhere more than so than in aviation do people appreciate the tremendous importance of building that pipeline for the workforce early on and trying to bring young people into the industry and and, you know, bring them into these really good paying jobs and keep them in the community doing those jobs.
▶ 1:27:22Yeah, great careers that they can do at a at an affordable tuition rate, close to home. Maybe they can still live at home while they're completing this
▶ 1:27:32It is ranked currently as the best in the Midwest, so that's something we're very proud of and would, you know, encourage anytime you'd like to come visit. We'd love to have you.
▶ 1:27:38Thank you. I'd love that.
▶ 1:27:39See it. Um and appreciate that. Ms. Black, I had a question for you. I know you mentioned earlier in your testimony about the Montgomery GI Bill and some of the limitations around flight training Um I know that we do have an ability right now to use the GI Bill for flight training, but there are annual caps around that.
▶ 1:27:59Uh I happen to also serve on the VA Committee, which of course is not the subject directly of jurisdiction, but uh just um last month we reported a bill favorably out of committee that would increase that cap to where it's not running on an annual basis. It would be a a cap for the entirety of the benefit. With that, it would be a $100,000 lifetime cap more or less that you could take at your own pace to achieve the flight training that you need. Obviously, there are limitations on that.
▶ 1:28:27We want accredited programs so that people are getting real benefit out of that. Would that help resolve the issue that you've described?
▶ 1:28:35Yes, it does help. Anything that starts to right-size the ability to finance the education for the actual cost of the education is very helpful. One of the most important things that can be helpful there though is allowing that GI Bill to be used for the first phase of certification, which is a private pilot certificate. Right now, the rules preclude using it for that and that's the gateway and that can cost 20,000 or more dollars. So, it's prohibitive expense for people to cover out of pocket just to get in. So, that is something that would be very effective.
▶ 1:29:05And if I may, no fly over country. We have built our business around landing at the places where other people fly over. So, thank you for saying that.
▶ 1:29:13Yeah, thank you. Last question uh with the time I have left. I know you mentioned uh some of the issues with ADSB and other things we've taken on a considerable amount of uh effort here after the tragedy that we had here over Washington D.C.'s airport about a year and a half ago.
▶ 1:29:27Um yesterday I had a meeting with some airline pilots in who are from my district who said that ACAS technology could be, you know, considerable number of years away, whereas we've seemed to be taking testimony that it is closer far closer than that, maybe within the next year. Do you have any thoughts on where that stands? If it's a technology gap, if it's a hardware gap, or if it's something that we can integrate more more quickly.
▶ 1:29:51I I would start with saying, you know, that they ACAS X is the end goal. We support it. We thought that the committee looked at the advanced There's a misconception out there that only ACAS X is the long lead technology. In fact, for a lot of the fleet, including almost all of the regional airline fleet, there is not right now a certified product for ADSB in for regional, so we support that.
▶ 1:30:15But what we suggest is a bridge that allows us to get right now those safety improvements rather than waiting until 2031 or in reality likely after that because the supply chain is not positioned to get us there by 2031. Um to use the electronic flight bags as an interim measure that will immediately start providing a safety increase and enormously increase situational awareness compared to where it is now.
▶ 1:30:40Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Apologies for running late.
▶ 1:30:43Gentleman yields. I now recognize Ms.
▶ 1:30:53Thank you. Uh I have been working for years to combat aviation noise in the District of 20 The 20 24 Federal Aviation Administration Reauthorization Law included my provision requiring the Government Accountability Office to conduct study of helicopter noise in the National Capital Region.
▶ 1:31:24The study, which was published in March of this year, recommended that the Army, Navy, Air Force, and the Department of Homeland Security develop and implement awareness and outlaw programs for communities affected by helicopter noise in the National Capital Region. Uh Mr.
▶ 1:31:49Collins, what progress have these agencies made in implementing this recommendation?
▶ 1:31:57So, uh DOD agreed with our recommendations, and they are planning to provide us with a corrective action plan later this month and that plan will outline the steps that each service will take to implement the recommendations. And so we can keep you and your staff apprised once we receive the plan.
▶ 1:32:23Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:32:27General lady yields. I now recognize Mr.
▶ 1:32:31Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This hearing hits home for Pennsylvania's 8th Congressional District. Northeastern Pennsylvania is home to the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton International Airport as well as smaller general aviation hubs like Hazleton Regional, Mount Pocono, Cherry Ridge, Flying Dollar, and Wyoming Valley. Non-airport hubs like AVP don't always make it into national conversations, but are just as critical to the region's connectivity and economic vitality.
▶ 1:33:01Uh NEPA interstate rail service yet has limited intercity bus options, which means aviation isn't just a convenience for my constituents. It is a lifeline. I'm glad the subcommittee is taking the time today to focus on the challenges facing small and rural communities and make sure they are not left behind.
▶ 1:33:22One of the most pressing issues facing AVP, Wilkes-Barre/Scranton International Airport, is the FAA has proposed the decommissioning of the MALSR approach lighting system on popular Runway 4. Ms. Black, regional carriers like Piedmont are the ones actually flying into airports like Uh AVP has shared concerns that the decommissioning of these MALSRs will lead to higher approach minimums, reduced capacity, more cancellations, and ultimately lost service.
▶ 1:33:51From your perspective, how does degraded approach infrastructure or safety infrastructure in general factor into an airline's decision to maintain or reduce service at non-hub airports. And is this a pattern that you're seeing at other small community airports across the
▶ 1:34:10Mr. President, thank you for the question. I'm going to avoid commenting on the specifics of that because I'm I'm not uh very well aware of it, but I will talk generally um having that infrastructure at small airports is critical. And ensuring that we bring not just you know, decommissioning, but we actually bring modernization to airports of all sizes. It's very important. Um small airports that have limited runway size, that impacts the kind of aircraft that you can attract to the airport.
▶ 1:34:38So, we want to make sure that we're moving in the right direction and making investments in our small community
▶ 1:34:44Are you seeing any other airports that uh any of your membership companies operate out of that have seen disruptions because of inadequate upgrades to a specific facility?
▶ 1:34:58Um I'll give you an example of a public-private partnership that developed in in response to exactly that kind of a disruption in Coeur d'Alene, which I believe just has um cargo uh in the specific airport needed to have a tower. And you know, for years they petitioned to get the tower, and then they took matters into their own hands, and the airline and the community came together, and they actually constructed the tower. So, the answer is yes, and there are some examples that show it.
▶ 1:35:23Well, I appreciate it. And I know we're all excited about the massive down payment this committee has made in ATC modernization. Billions of dollars are currently being invested to and we've seen real capacity and efficiency gains where these upgrades have been made. Mr. Doberstein, from your perspective as an airport operator, are non-hub non-hub airports getting their fair share of those investments?
▶ 1:35:49Thank Thank the question, Congressman. I don't believe so. I I think there's more that can be done for the non-hub and small hub airports around the country to invest in that infrastructure. Fargo being one of them. We're coming up on an aging air traffic control facility in our community and are looking for ways to make improvements or replace that control tower just as they are in Duluth, Minnesota right now.
▶ 1:36:11What does the modernization picture look like on the ground at smaller airports? And where do you see the biggest gaps? And what do you think Congress and specifically this committee could be doing a better job to help those small community airports?
▶ 1:36:27In terms of technology, you know, just making certain that the most up-to-date technology is available in terms of radar coverage, the equipment that is in the control towers that the controllers are working with is up-to-date and and the most efficient that can be available for them. Uh, that the training for those controllers is efficient for the size airport that they're working in the airspace that they're responsible for. Um, in terms of things on the ground, you know, we're looking at VMAT as well, the transponders for our vehicles, for aircraft in our tower.
▶ 1:36:58We're working with suppliers right now on trying to implement that yet this summer so that we can become more safe as well. So, anything to improve safety, this committee's done a lot of work to improve safety both the House and the Senate and we certainly appreciate that investment and look forward to more investment in those technologies that can improve safety, whether it's at the tower or on the ground that protect my employees as well as those that are on the aircraft patronizing our airport.
▶ 1:37:22Well, I appreciate the feedback and to all the witnesses, thank you for being here. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield.
▶ 1:37:28Gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr.
▶ 1:37:34Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to circle back on something that my colleague from Nevada had mentioned about airport infrastructure financing. I represent Colorado's third district. It's about half of the state's geographic footprint. Um, it's quite large and airports are a critical part not just for transportation but also they are economic lifelines in western and southern Colorado.
▶ 1:37:54Um, we've heard discussion about the $175 billion infrastructure gap at airports across the country in large cities as well as in communities like those that I represent and I worked with my colleague Mr. Garamendi across the aisle on the Financing Certainty Act and pleased that that was a part of the Build America to 50 Act that we passed out of this committee just a few weeks Um, Mr.
▶ 1:38:20Dobbins, can you talk a little bit about rural airports taking advantage of financing tools such as Um, how how important is this to ensure um, important projects go from ideas to
▶ 1:38:36Well, Congressman, thank you for the question. First of all, thank you and the committee for including TIFIA in the highway bill. That that's very important. Um, I believe and AAA believes that the program needs to be extended. It it's a critical tool for airports to have at their disposal as they look to finance important and critical infrastructure projects at their airport to improve safety and capacity and enhance the the experience for our our traveling public.
▶ 1:39:02um, I do also do believe that possibly more education needs to be provided to airports so that they understand the TIFIA program and what's available to them as this is a tool in their tool kit to finance important projects.
▶ 1:39:13Right, not everyone's aware of it or aware of how it might be used.
▶ 1:39:17Okay, great. We can definitely do a better job in in that regard. Uh, Mr. Pecoraro, uh, next question for you. Workforce development and retention are one of the most critical issues in aviation and uh, rural communities like those that I represent feel that the hardest. Often times pilot workforce are um, forcing communities to see reduced service as a result.
▶ 1:39:39Um, they also have challenges keeping key staff beyond pilots, air traffic controllers, specialist TSA security specialists, um aircraft maintenance is another issue, um gate agents, and so on. Having a strong workforce pipeline is key to ensuring that we have the strong supply of employees needed to support expanded opportunities for passenger I wanted to ask you specifically about a a particular technology that's of interest to us in the West, which is and it could be promising on the air
▶ 1:40:09traffic control front, which is remote towers, which allow air traffic control officials to remotely direct traffic to non-towered rural airports. In my mind, this allows for the extra layer of security and certainty that ATC but also gives some flexibility to rural airports uh to meet their individual needs.
▶ 1:40:31How can Congress leverage innovative technologies like remote air traffic control to better serve small and rural airports like those in Western and Southern Colorado? Thank you very much for that question, Mr. Hurd. We at NASA think that uh that those kind types of towers are a critical part of the future and are going to be very important to aviation safety going forward.
▶ 1:40:53As yeah, as you know, Colorado was a leader in this area and we were very disappointed when you know, the earlier round of uh research into uh into these towers didn't didn't you know, work out with the FAA. Uh there was a great uh facility in Colorado where they were working on it as well as one in Leesburg, Virginia. Both showed tremendous potential. We're glad that it's in the We're glad it's in the reauthorization bill that you all passed.
▶ 1:41:19We're glad that the FAA is moving forward again on relaunching that effort and we think that uh there's a tremendous potential uh for creating safety at a lot of airports that can't afford a regular tower or a contract tower. Uh this can provide uh avenues for uh for aviation safety and uh for you know people to understand what's happening you know on the ground at these airports.
▶ 1:41:42Amen and agreed. We need to keep pushing. Thank you uh very much for that. Uh Ms. Malarkey Black as I mentioned earlier, airports are a gateway to jobs, economic they're an economic lifeline, health care, education, tourism, business opportunities, all those things. they are not only home to regional airline services, but also business aviation operators, air ambulances, agricultural aviation, flight schools, and other users as well.
▶ 1:42:08From your perspective, how does the loss of regional airline service affect the long-term viability of these smaller airports and their economic outlook?
▶ 1:42:17I think you just look at the Thank you for the question. If you look at the headlines from when regional airlines had to park a quarter of our fleet and capacity dropped out, it was communities are in crisis and you saw airport directors that were cra- talking to the press, talking about what a calamity it was. This is not just an economic impact, but it's a real decisive change to the quality of the life that people live there. So, I think it's very harmful um when when there's a uh a problem that with with the regional service and with the air service at the
▶ 1:42:47Great. Thank you very much for that. Uh Mr. Chairman, I see my time is expired.
▶ 1:42:51Yes, sir. Uh Mr. Knight, you're
▶ 1:42:53Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. It's great to be here. This is an important topic and uh I represent sort of the Triangle region of North Carolina and East, which is a uh it's a it's a fertile ground for rural airports. And I have an interesting story. My a number of years ago actually uh came back from World War II and sent a request to Mr. Cessna about how to construct an airport. He had put together various parcels of land and uh Mr.
▶ 1:43:22Cessna wrote him back with a how-to manual. And so, my grandfather contracted all of the necessary components. He he graded the uh the airfield and that airport is still in existence today in eastern Wake County, North Carolina. And it sort of hits on what I want to talk to you all about. Um there are obviously a lot of headwinds for the rural aviation industry. You know, cost is certainly a component, but it's not necessarily the cost of material and labor.
▶ 1:43:49It's the regulatory costs that come with the the delays, the permitting, the frivolous lawsuits, and it's a tragedy whenever a decades-old or even older airport will close because they cannot maintain compliance because of the bureaucratic overhangs or the regulatory uh costs imposed with that. So, um Mr. Dobbs, I want to talk to you first.
▶ 1:44:13What are ways that we in Congress can streamline and can make it more economical to maintain existence as a rural airport? I'm talking about small rural airports.
▶ 1:44:25You know, certainly efficiencies in the environmental process would be very beneficial. Um working with our state agencies, the Department of Health in our state, our local engineers who are experts in those environmental concerns. You know, we all want to be safe in the environment and everything that we do. Uh but certainly trying to expedite the environmental reviews for these important infrastructure projects that we're trying to complete in our airport and other airports across the state and in country uh would be vital for us.
▶ 1:44:55And in regards to the the I would say the challenges that you face currently to maintain your economic um how would you order those in terms of the top three that Congress can help you What are the biggest challenges that you
▶ 1:45:10Uh certainly funding uh is one uh to have available funding. And as I said before, that's a federal, state, and and local community and partnership. relief with those environmental regulations and and policies that we're trying to fight through with with the FAA and and other federal agencies would would be of benefit. And then also just trying to provide extra funds for safety improvements at our airports and airports across the country to make it safe not only for my employees that are out on the airfield, but for those that are arriving departing on aircraft.
▶ 1:45:40And is the funding that you're talking about is it primarily from Washington or are you talking about private funding as
▶ 1:45:47It it could be a combination of both, but but certainly at the federal level I think is most critical. And our state has been very generous at our airports in in North Dakota. We're very fortunate in that regard and their investment through the legislature and their Aeronautics Commission. But but and also with the local community. Mr. Collins, I want to talk to you briefly. I see that that um your group has recommended an increase in the mandatory retirement age from 65 to 67.
▶ 1:46:13Do you know how that calculus was arrived at to go up to 67 as opposed to like say 70, 72?
▶ 1:46:22I'm not aware of us making that
▶ 1:46:26Are you aware of the statutory requirement? I could have misread it.
▶ 1:46:29of the requirement and
▶ 1:46:30Yes. Let me ask you then this angle. How what are your thoughts about that
▶ 1:46:35So um to this point there hasn't been a safety assessment uh behind the requirement. So it might make sense to have an assessment to see if there are any safety effects of having the the age
▶ 1:46:49Do you think that that private businesses, states, or other other bodies are incapable um determining who could be a safe operator of an airplane? I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm just curious. The 65 the 65 age requirement just seems entirely arbitrary to me. I know pilots who have been forced to retire that are perfectly able to continue their career and it's something that again it's just a it's just a question at the top of my mind.
▶ 1:47:18Yeah, I think it's worth researching whether or not it it makes sense and if there are any uh safety considerations behind that. Mr. Piccard, do you have any any thoughts about that?
▶ 1:47:31No, sir. I'm sorry. We don't have a position on that.
▶ 1:47:33Okay. In regards to the the remote towers, I do want to continue that conversation. There are there are numerous airports in my district that are are waiting for tower approvals and to get the FAA on board with with expanding their footprint, and the tower piece is their last uh component. How can we expedite the use of these remote towers to the more up-and-coming airports?
▶ 1:48:00I think lighting a fire under the FAA to move forward with these is the best way to do that. The technology is proven. I saw it in Leesburg, where it worked great. Um I know that they've got other contracts that they're looking at working with right now, different from who are different from the ones who were doing it before, but the tech technology worked 6 years ago when I saw it. It can
▶ 1:48:20since then. Uh the situation that I have is in is a county called Johnson County, and they have one of the busiest airports in the state. The only thing they need is increased tower functionality, and they have the funding for a fraction of the cost of a regular
▶ 1:48:33Exactly. They just can't get the
▶ 1:48:35Yes, sir.
▶ 1:48:36Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. I'm over. I appreciate it.
▶ 1:48:39All right. And I'll recognize Mr.
▶ 1:48:42Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses for being here for this important hearing for rural communities. Reliable air service isn't a convenience. It's essential infrastructure in Arizona. Small airports support our robust tourism industry, as well as connecting residents to health care, education, and the broader national economy.
▶ 1:49:01Take for example Flagstaff Pulliam Airport, the gateway for nearly half a million people in northern Arizona, a key gateway for visitors traveling to the Grand Canyon. Yet, despite strong demand, Flagstaff ranks among the most expensive airports in the contiguous United States. Passengers face fewer flight options, higher fares. They can't just choose different airport. The next closest commercial airport is more than 90 miles away, an hour and a half in a car.
▶ 1:49:29Flagstaff is seeking relief through the small community air service development program, applying for grants to expand connectivity to hubs like Denver and Salt Lake City. Mr. Pecoraro, are there specific changes to the small community air service development program that we should be to improve air service in these communities, particularly those like Flagstaff, which have challenges in generating local financial support to be competitive for federal funding?
▶ 1:49:56I don't have any specific recommendations today. What I would say and what I've as I said earlier is that I think that what's critical is, you know, these programs have been in existence for a long time. Market conditions have changed, economics have conditions on the ground have changed. What we need to do is for the USDOT and FAA to sit down and develop a national strategy on how we're going to retool all this, working with all the stakeholders, as they did recently with the national strategy on advanced air mobility, which is a terrific effort.
▶ 1:50:26And you know, it's going to yield real results and we think an approach like that would really help benefit these types of programs.
▶ 1:50:33Thank you very much. Families in Arizona, as they plan their summer travel, unfortunately the war in Iran and the closure of the Strait of Hormuz has sent jet fuel prices through the roof, doubling since the conflict began. That's show up showing up in ticket prices for travelers in metro Phoenix and everywhere. And for many in rural communities, limited air service and fewer competitive options make those costs especially difficult to avoid. Ms.
▶ 1:50:59Malarkey Black, if higher fuel costs do you anticipate airlines reducing service in certain markets? And if so, are smaller rural communities are to feel those impacts more acutely than larger metropolitan areas.
▶ 1:51:15The economics of small community routes make them uniquely vulnerable to cost increases, whether it's labor or fuel, um simply because of the math. We've got smaller aircraft and fewer passengers traveling. So, while we don't set the fares, uh and we don't set the schedules, we would expect to see those kinds of consequences coming from our mainline partners.
▶ 1:51:32Thank you very much. Um those are all my questions, so I yield back, Mr.
▶ 1:51:36Gentleman yields, I now recognize Mr.
▶ 1:51:40Thank you, Mr. Chairman, uh and ranking member uh for organizing this important hearing, and thank you to the witnesses for your time and your testimony today. In a lot of small communities, missing a flight doesn't just change travel plans, it changes what people can reach and what opportunities reach them. That's because when the nearest major airport is hours away, air service becomes part of the community's lifeline.
▶ 1:52:08And right now, too many of these communities are watching that lifeline fray. Not because they don't matter, but because the economics of aviation don't always treat them like they do. That's exactly why Congress stepped in with the bipartisan 2024 FAA Reauthorization Law, we protected the Essential Air Service Program, the Small Community Air Service Development and Airport Improvement Program funding because safety
▶ 1:52:39and infrastructure shouldn't depend on the size of your tax But a program on paper doesn't mean much if people can't feel it in their daily lives. If flights keep disappearing, if prices keep rising, if workforce shortages keep pushing service away, then we still have work to do.
▶ 1:52:59My hope is today uh that we make sure these programs are doing what Congress intended, keeping small and rural communities connected to opportunity, not cut off from it. Whether you live in a rural community or in a growing suburb of Metro Atlanta, you deserve to be connected.
▶ 1:53:21People just want a fair shot, and that's what they And that's really what this comes down to, making sure that folks in smaller communities aren't treated like an afterthought. These programs exist because Congress made a commitment, and commitments must mean something. I'm looking forward uh to um hearing more from you all in response to uh my questions. I only have a limited amount of time, however, Mr.
▶ 1:53:49Pecararo I would characterize some goals of any small community as growing their demand, investing in their and show they can sustain reliable Most folks would look at that and say that's success. But in your testimony, you said some communities end up penalized for that success when market conditions shift against them. Mr.
▶ 1:54:19Puck Puck Pecararo, can you further explain what it looks like when those market conditions turn, and does that kind of shift end up undoing the progress a community has worked so hard to build?
▶ 1:54:33It certainly can. A great example of that is what happened to a lot of communities, you know, during and after the pandemic when when conditions shifted, people work from home, people traveled less, they weren't able to travel. Um you know, demand dropped significantly, airlines shut down service, pilot was exacerbated. Um and we saw a lot of communities lose service.
▶ 1:54:58And under the current rules of the EAS program, there's there's no there's there's a it's very difficult to get back in and use that program to rebuild successful service that you once had prior to the pandemic. So, one of the things that we're encouraging Congress to do is to look at, you know, you know, some kind of a path for some of those communities to get back in and be able to rebuild that service.
▶ 1:55:21I'd also note along those lines that the Georgia DOT recently completed and used SCASD grant very successfully focused on small community air service development uh to fund marketing, social media campaigns, advertising to try and build that type of service across a wide number of airports in Georgia. The results increased community awareness of local airports and we saw a measurable rise in ticketed passengers at each of the participating airports.
▶ 1:55:50These programs do work when they're applied properly.
▶ 1:55:53Thank you. Ms. Black, you've made it clear in your testimony that what looks like low demand is often really the result of the system pulling back first with fewer departures, fewer destinations, and schedules that no longer work for Ms. Black, where should we begin to stop this pattern of the system pulling back
▶ 1:56:18I think we have to start with two things at once. First is the fleet, making sure that we have the right-sized aircraft to serve smaller communities and equally important, the workforce. We need to have the people to operate the fleets to connect these smaller communities through to the hubs and through them and
▶ 1:56:33Thank you. I'm surprised I've got time to yield back, but I shall do so. Thank
▶ 1:56:37Very well, Hank. Uh I now recognize Mr. McClintock.
▶ 1:56:41Well, thank you, Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for being here to testify before our subcommittee today. Uh Mr. Pecoraro, what would you say are the top two or three challenges that threaten small community air
▶ 1:57:00Pilot shortage. Phasing the the aging out of regional aircraft that are, you know, appropriately sized for those um, and the rising cost of travel.
▶ 1:57:12So, you would say that the Essential Air Service program is vital to rural air connectivity, correct?
▶ 1:57:19So, prior to the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the US government managed the aviation um, and the deregulation changed all of that and introduced an aviation based on the free market. Um, I guess my question for you is, why do you disagree with the criticisms of the EAS program?
▶ 1:57:48I don't know that it's so much that I disagree with the criticisms of the program. It's just that I think that the program, in in the 40 almost 50 years since it was created, hasn't really been been updated. And the airline industry has changed dramatically from what Congress thought it was going to be when it was deregulated. And I think that that's why, you know, you know, and that's why we need to take a hard look at, you know, what the program is accomplishing right now and think about ways to reform it. I'm not saying I think, you know, support continues to be important.
▶ 1:58:18Uh, what that support looks like certainly can change. I think it's, you know, foolish to think that everything remains the same and you don't need to change things and and and modify them, but you I think that's where we are today that we've allowed a certain complacency to exist where we haven't made those difficult changes.
▶ 1:58:35Mr. Black, how did the airline struggle to find pilots impact regional aviation more than the rest of the industry?
▶ 1:58:43Regional airlines are the career entry point. Um, that's normal. You know, we we hire the pilots that are coming from the pipeline. Um, we were in an existing pilot shortage before the pandemic. And after the pandemic, when demand sprang back so much faster than anybody anticipated, our major airline partners hired voraciously and they find the best and brightest working for us. So, um, as a result, we parked about a quarter of our fleet. Um, we didn't have the pilots to fly them.
▶ 1:59:11More specifically, we didn't have the captains to fly them because when a major airline hires, they take a captain and then we can pull a first officer from the pipeline. Not only were there not enough first officers, but we obviously needed to have um, captains. So, as a result, a quarter of the fleet was parked and small communities went into crisis. I mean, the amount of air service that small communities lost was stunning and
▶ 1:59:36To that point, how does the loss of air materially hurt rural areas and
▶ 1:59:43Well, if you think about it from a business perspective, you need to be able to get in and out reasonably. Um, I go and visit small communities as part of my job. I speak at small community air service uh, associations at smaller states with smaller service and it takes a long time to get there. Um, I go there because it's my job. But, if you're a recruiter, if you're somebody that's trying to get parts, if you're trying to see a sick loved one, you need to have uh, schedules and departures and routes that meet your needs.
▶ 2:00:10And when we lose the frequency and we lose the destination options, then suddenly that's not as workable.
▶ 2:00:16So, you argue that declining departures from regional airports can be an imperfect measure to or I guess of consumer preference. Why is that?
▶ 2:00:26Specifically, the decline in seats. You can have a increase in seats, meaning you are actually able to to carry more passengers, but in departures and the options are shrinking because you're moving to bigger airplanes. They take more passengers at once, but they necessarily have to go to fewer places and less often because of the way they're doing it.
▶ 2:00:47Mr. Collins, based on your work at the GAO, do you agree with the other witnesses' statements on the value of the Essential Air Service Program?
▶ 2:00:57The Essential Air Service Program does provide a valuable service in that it it gives a floor of service to that
▶ 2:01:04So, yes.
▶ 2:01:07Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:01:09Gentleman yields. I thank you so much. Any further questions from any members of the subcommittee have not been recognized. I don't see any. Hey, this listen, I appreciate you all being here. This will conclude our hearing today. I thought you all did a hell of a job, great job. Uh the sub All right, we'll get my my dentist friend out of Jersey. All right. Do you need 30 seconds to prepare, Mr. Van Drew, or you set?
▶ 2:01:39He's set.
▶ 2:01:40I'm prepared. Mr. Van Drew, you're up.
▶ 2:01:41Chairman, I'm sorry. I was running around in between committees. And I apologize to all of you, but I'm glad I made it. Uh let me get started. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for recognizing Um as we discuss the future of our rural and small community air service, I wanted to highlight a provision in the Build America 250 Act that will provide a real boost to regional airports and rural airports.
▶ 2:02:07I was happy to work with Representatives Rob Bresnahan and Chris Deluzio on the motor coach employment pilot program. You might be familiar with it. It ensures passengers who begin their trip on an airline operated motor coach connection count as enplanements for an airport funding purposes.
▶ 2:02:26For example, in my airport, Atlantic City International, if you get on a bus there, and you go to Philadelphia Airport, um that counts for Atlantic City, especially with critical funding. For many smaller and regional airports, passenger boarding numbers are critical. They help determine eligibility for federal funding and support the infrastructure investments needed to maintain service.
▶ 2:02:51For airports facing service reductions or airline withdrawals, which we just went through recently as you saw with Spirit um we've got good news though. We just met with Breeze and they're going to fill in the gaps. Motorcoach enplanements will help preserve access to national aviation systems. In my district, Atlantic City International Airport has faced significant challenges following the closure and reduction of service associated, as I mentioned, with Spirit.
▶ 2:03:20Airports across the country are experiencing similar pressures as airlines consolidate service and focus operations on larger larger hubs. The Motorcoach enplanement pilot program will help ensure that smaller communities remain connected, which is so important and uh you saw OP just speak about that a little while ago and it's important for him, Pete Staebler.
▶ 2:03:44It's important for all of us that are in the regional areas, smaller areas, rural areas, economic opportunity, for health care, for education, for tourism, and the broader transportation network. As you all know, and I thank you for your work. Ms. Black, thank you for being here today. Regional airlines continue to face pilot supply constraints and rising operating costs.
▶ 2:04:07To what extent are those pressures still driving service reductions at smaller airports like all of ours? And what policy changes would be most effective to restoring service to underserved communities? Thank you.
▶ 2:04:23Thank you for the question. Right now, what we're seeing is that um we are seeing a slight increase in departures nationwide, um but it's mixed and you can it just shows that you can have good national numbers while the individual communities like Lansing and many, many others are still far, far behind. So, it's not so much a question of if we're still cutting.
▶ 2:04:45Um we've moved up from the nadir of the pilot shortage in 2023, and we are starting to rebuild, but that recovery has not reached communities everywhere, and we still have a long way to go before it does. Our non-hubs and our non-primary airports that serve the smallest rural communities are still down by an enormous amount. We have a lot of work to do to make sure that the pilot pipeline can catch up, and the fleet is there so that we can continue to reconnect those communities.
▶ 2:05:11Yeah, and it's a big issue when we're going to fight with you shoulder to shoulder to do everything we can to connect these communities, cuz it's a big deal, and it's a big chunk of You know, not everybody lives in Philly, New York City. I won't I don't have to go through with you, or Atlanta. Dobersnin, thank you for being here today as well. How will programs that better integrate airports with air carrier-operated ground transportation help smaller airports retain relevance and maintain passenger volumes?
▶ 2:05:42Uh it's critically important. Um we were the recipient of Landline service from Fargo to Minneapolis-Saint Paul, which is about a 4-hour bus ride. It was extremely successful, but then Landline took our bus and moved it to Philadelphia for other opportunities there. I think through American Airlines, but it worked extremely well for us. The traveling public embraced it. Um but I think the ground transportation is an opportunity for other rural communities to connect to the national air transportation system.
▶ 2:06:11I I think it is, too. I think it really can help, and it makes a difference, and it's relatively convenient. You know, it's still easier again, I'll just give my own parochial example, from if you if you have to go to Philly Airport, I'd much rather go out of Atlantic City, but if you have to, um it's certainly you just jump on the bus, everything's prepared, the baggage check, all that, and you go to Philly, and you're done. But, it's a much quicker and easier way to do it. So, and that's throughout the country for these smaller airports.
▶ 2:06:38Mr. Collins, last question. GAO has documented passenger leakage from smaller airports to larger hubs. In your vote in your view in your view has motor coach employments shown promise in helping smaller communities compete and retain travelers? I know you know the answer. I know the answer, but I want to hear it.
▶ 2:07:00That's a definite yes. Um in our work, stakeholders have told us that bus service is um a great opportunity to uh make sure that rural communities are connected to the NAS. Now, it may not fit every rural uh community, but it is a an an option for many.
▶ 2:07:19Thank you and to the great chairman, who I am going to miss a lot when he leaves us in the House of Representatives. Uh I yield back to you, chairman. We appreciate you.
▶ 2:07:28Thank you, sir. I now recognize Mr. Good to see you.
▶ 2:07:38Mr. Shirey should be happy that I showed up, right? He would have been done for.
▶ 2:07:41That's correct.
▶ 2:07:43Uh well, I thank you. Thank you uh uh chairman and uh right the ranking member uh Mr. Carson and I uh are fellow Hoosiers. Uh uh I uh represent uh a part of Indianapolis uh that uh the airport IND is located in. Mr. Carson has a portion of it, too. I think I've got the better portion of IND.
▶ 2:08:08It includes the uh uh FedEx uh air cargo operations, the second largest FedEx air hub in the world. Uh and uh Indiana is the home of Republic Airways. Uh it's uh headquartered uh uh uh there in the metro.
▶ 2:08:26And of course, uh folks here, but uh some of my colleagues may not know that administrator uh Brian's the very recent former CEO of Republic Airways. And so, he brings that subject matter expertise in uh you know, the the regional feeder system to the table at both large airports and of course, mid-size and smaller
▶ 2:08:56ones that that are so important to the passenger infrastructure that we've got in this country. I appreciate the opportunity to parachute back in. This is my third time in the room, and I appreciate our four testimony and what you've shared with all of us today.
▶ 2:09:15I don't want to retrace ground that may well have been covered by my colleagues, but maybe tie it off if I could with just a just a couple of couple of questions or for consideration that any of the any of the four of you might have.
▶ 2:09:36If we stay the course from a funding standpoint, if we do nothing different over the next few what what what is essential air service many of the smaller communities that folks like I represent in Indiana, and I have dozens of public access airport communities like Mr. Stauber passionately spoke to.
▶ 2:10:02If we if we stay the course funding level and otherwise, what does the future look like from your four perspectives, your agency perspectives in particular, Ms. Black or Mr. Procario?
▶ 2:10:18Thank you for the question. I think our environment is not static, and our response to the environment can't be either. Uh And whether that's air traffic control modernization, bringing that to all airports of all sizes including the digital situational awareness tools they need, of the workforce. You mentioned Republic, [clears throat] they've got lift, that's an incredible investment that the private sector is making in the future of our workforce, but making sure that more people from working class backgrounds can afford it through accessible student loans that cover the full cost of flight training.
▶ 2:10:49Making sure that we encourage manufacturing of the fleet that serve these smaller communities, that's a big one. And making sure when we bring safety to airports of all sizes that we do it in a way that works with the fleet so that we can comply and we can continue to preserve those airports.
▶ 2:11:08if we do nothing but leave the funding at the current levels, which is much appreciated of course, I think that you'll see communities to continue to see a decline in service because we won't be attacking the fundamental problems that they face right now. So that's why we're here to urge Congress to develop the you know, encourage the USDOT and the FAA to develop a strategy that can do a better job of providing access to the air system national system.
▶ 2:11:35Is the migration away from the the smaller regional jets the the 135s primarily a function of insufficient numbers of pilots that more than anything else?
▶ 2:11:52understand your question. You're saying the migration away from 135 airports?
▶ 2:11:56Yeah, I I I
▶ 2:11:57Or excuse me, 135 airlines at airports
▶ 2:12:01Yeah, I Ms. Black, I think in your earlier testimony you noted that with there were fewer 50 passenger jets in in service and I'm not sure if it if it that was from you, but is that a function of not enough trained crews and so where you've got pilots, you need to put them behind the stick or the yoke of larger regional jets. Is that Is that what is driving At Purdue Airport, they just landed flagged as United service, and they're operating those 50-seat aircraft.
▶ 2:12:30So, they're still out there, but there are fewer and fewer of them.
▶ 2:12:34There are a few. It's a math question. When you have a limited supply of pilots, the network carriers try to serve as many passengers at once, and that typically means deploying larger aircraft, whether that's larger regionals or in some cases mainline. But of course, not all communities can support a 76-seat jet, let alone an aerobody jet. So, we still need that fleet. Unfortunately, that's the exact gap right now.
▶ 2:12:58We've got some scope clause constraints with that are labor union contracts with the major airlines that actually limit the manufacturing of regional jets because they limit what kind of jets we can deploy, including the weight. So, it's a complicated issue for us, but but yes, that is Those are some of the many constraints that are facing the 50-seat market.
▶ 2:13:20And I will say with respect to part 135 carriers, they do have pilot issues because they are, you know, they they are a source of great experience for pilots to come in, but they attrit very quickly to larger regionals and then move on through the
▶ 2:13:34I appreciate that. My time's expired, but I just want to clarify I was referring to the Embraer 135, not the part 135 with respect to the smaller aircraft. I appreciate the witnesses testimony, and Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the indulgence with the time. Thank you, everyone.
▶ 2:13:49Yes, sir. The gentleman yields. Are there any further questions from members of the subcommittee? Seeing none, this concludes our hearing today. Again, I want to thank each and every one of you for being here. This subcommittee stands adjourned.