▶ 0:13:04Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time. This hearing is titled Examining Local Needs in Disaster Recovery. Without objection, all members will have five legislative days within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for inclusion in the record. I now recognize myself for four minutes for an opening statement.
▶ 0:13:25The topic of this hearing is the role that HUD plays in the disaster recovery through what's called the community development block grant disaster recovery program or CDBGDR is a supplemental disaster recovery assistance program. It is intended to meet long-term disaster needs that remain unmet after other sources of assistance from FEMA and the S SBA have already been deployed. CDBGDR is a very unique program. The program is not authorized in statute.
▶ 0:13:55Instead, funds are typically granted through a supplemental appropriations bill following a natural disaster. Because these funds are directed through the CDBG program and not any standing program with director disaster recovery nexus, HUD must effectively rewrite the rules around how an affected area can utilize the funds for each disaster.
▶ 0:14:19This lack of structure makes this unauthorized program a nightmare for both its administrators at HUD and the local governments that need the funds. A quick look at some topline data demonstrates this point clearly. According to a HUD Office of Inspector General report issued in January of this year, of the 109.8 billion allocated through CDBGDR since its inception, only 64.7 billion has been spent.
▶ 0:14:48In other words, only about 59% of CDBGDR funds have been spent. To be clear, I'm not saying only 59% of the funds were spent last year or in the last 5 years. Only 59% of CDBGDR funds have been spent ever. If you take a look at some individual allocations, the problem looks even more acute. Out of two billion allocated to Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands for the 2018 electrical power outages, only about 4.5% has been spent.
▶ 0:15:17Out of 16.1 billion allocated for mitigation activities from the 2015 to 2018, only about 16 of percent of those funds have been spent. Uh these abysmal statistics stem from both HUD's slow allocation of funds and grantees difficulty in utilizing the funds when they are allocated. Additionally, HUD has struggled to conduct proper oversight to prevent waste, fraud, and abuse after the funds are spent.
▶ 0:15:45To sum it up, we have an unauthorized program for which number one, HUD has difficulty allocating funds quickly. Number two, grantees have difficulty spending these funds effectively. And number three, HUD has difficulty conducting oversight of those funds. That's a dizzying set of problems for a program that has received over 100 billion since its inception. Now that we've discussed the problems with the status quo, let's examine the best path forward for disaster recovery.
▶ 0:16:15There is a proposal out there that would permanently authorize CDBGDR. It takes the current structure of the program and seeks to enshrine it in statute, creating a permanent fund. I don't think that approach is prudent given how things are going. The entire structure of the DR program is one of convenience. Appropriators use it because the allowable uses for CDBG funds most closely resemble long-term recovery needs, not because it's the optimal way to de disperse the funds. And this structure creates some inherent flaws within the program.
▶ 0:16:44For example, the CDBG program has three national objectives. To principally benefit low and moderate income persons, to aid in the prevention or elimination of slums or blight, or to provide an urgent need for the purposes of health and safety. Because CDBGDR exists within the program of CDBG, these funds must meet one of those national objectives. This creates an odd situation.
▶ 0:17:09The intended use of the money, which is to provide recovery dollars in the aftermath of a disaster, must conform with the priorities that have nothing to do with the disaster or the recovery. So, with that, I uh yield back my time. I uh now recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, Mr. Cleer, for four minutes for an opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for calling this hearing. Millions of Americans have faced increasingly catastrophic life-threatening extreme weather events.
▶ 0:17:38In 2024 and 2025 alone, the United States experienced 50 separate billion dollar disasters. Disaster survivors, including in my own home state of Missouri, need assistance today. Disaster management is a multi- agency effort consisting of preparedness, emergency response, and recovery with recovery occurring over the short, intermediate, and long-term.
▶ 0:18:05FEMA, SBA, and HUD formed a core federal disaster recovery system, and many other agencies support recovery in their areas of expertise. FEMA provides emergency and initial recovery assistance. SBA provides disaster loans and HUD through addresses longerterm recovery needs not fully met by FEMA or SBA programs.
▶ 0:18:29HUD has extensive expertise in housing and community development and a longer term recovery often looks like conventional CDBG activity aimed at disaster impacts. Last month, more than 500 national, state, and local organizations wrote Congress urging the codification of the CDBGDR program. They echoed what Congress has been told by HUD, the HUD, OIG, and the GAO.
▶ 0:18:58Codification, including a rulemaking process, would improve core administrative challenges and increase oversight, transparency, and coordination with other agencies. As of May 1, 2026, there were 272 active CDBGDR grants totaling 106 billion dollars operating under the requirements of nearly 98 different federal notices. This has conquer consequences.
▶ 0:19:27Communities have unnecessarily waited months or years for support long after families have relocated, businesses have closed, and economies are have been permanently altered. In California, as many as 100,000 displaced residents remain unable to return home and communities are still awaiting CDBGDR funding and clarity more than 520 days after the fires.
▶ 0:19:56It is a disaster of a disaster management system. FEMA challenges exacerbated by the administration are also well documented and FEMA review council recommended long-term recovery be outside of FEMA. Without objection, Mr. Chairman, I would like to include in the record a letter from the National Association of Realers expressing their views on CDBGR. I look forward to the hearing. Thank you.
▶ 0:20:21Without objection, it's accepted. I now recognize the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Hill, for one minute for an opening statement.
▶ 0:20:28Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate you, and Mr. Clever, having this important hearing. Natural disasters certainly can upend countless lives, leaving families, businesses, and entire communities to face the difficult task of rebuilding. I was involved in that personally, significantly during the post Katrina environment. And when [snorts] disaster strikes, federal assistance programs should deliver timely, transparent, and effective support.
▶ 0:20:54Unfortunately, in my view, HUD's CDBG DR program has fallen short of that high standard. It lacks permanent authorization, clear objectives, and consistent program program rules, and GAO has repeatedly cited inconsistent program requirements as a key driver of delays. And HUD's own inspector general has documented more than $690 million in spending that lacked adequate documentation.
▶ 0:21:22So the CDBG DR's targeting rules compound that problem. I look forward to this hearing looking for solutions and to how to design a program that can actually work. I yield back.
▶ 0:21:32Gentleman yields back. Today we welcome the testimony of Mr. Joseph Josek, an analyst in economic development policy at the Congressional Research Office. Mr. Pat Cave, the senior vice president of policy at Enterprise Community Partners, Miss Heather Lrron, the senior deputy director of the community development and revitalization department at the Texas General Land Office, and Mrs.
▶ 0:21:57Stephanie McGera, the deputy secretary of community revitalization at the North Carolina Department of Commerce. We thank each of you for taking the time to be here today. We each of you will be recognized for five minutes to give an oral presentation of your testimony. Without objection, your written statements will be made part of the record. Mr. Jerosk, you are now recognized for five minutes for your opening oral remarks. Thank you.
▶ 0:22:23Committee Chair Hill, Chair Flood, Vice Chair Dea Cruz, Ranking Member Clever, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. My name is Joe Gerrosk. I'm an analyst in economic development policy with the Congressional Research Service. The role of CRS is to provide objective nonpartisan research and analysis to Congress. CRS takes no position on the desiraability of any specific policy.
▶ 0:22:51Any arguments presented in my written and oral testimony are intended to inform Congress and not to advocate for a particular policy outcome. This CRS testimony will provide an overview of community development block grants for disaster recovery or CDBGDR and related issues. CDBGR is a form of long-term disaster recovery assistance provided at the discretion of Congress through supplemental appropriations.
▶ 0:23:20CDBGDR is a form apologies. These funds are administered by the Department of Housing and Urban Development and are intended to support needs not met by other forms of federal disaster aid. CDBGDR is not a standard federal program with its own standing authorization or regulations.
▶ 0:23:40Instead, the funds are subject to the conventional HUD community development block grant programs statutory authority and regulatory requirements plus any uh established by Congress or HUD. As such, program requirements may vary from grant to grant and allocation to allocation.
▶ 0:24:01Some analysis suggests that the ad hoc nature and block grant structure of CDBGDR has allowed Congress and HUD to adapt grant requirements to the specific needs of disasteraffected communities. Some other analysis appears to indicate that its structure may have also contributed to challenges in grants management, coordination, and prevention or detection of improper payments among other issues.
▶ 0:24:29Both GAO and HUD's Office of Inspector General have recommended broad structural reform to CDBGDR or similar investments as a means to provide long-term disaster recovery assistance for unmet needs. Such recommendations have included calls for formal statutory authorization by Congress and standardized regulatory codification by HUD.
▶ 0:24:54HUD has instituted some measures to standardize CDBGDR processes within the current framework. For example, in 2025, HUD adopted the universal notice, which is a uniform rulemaking document designed to accompany CDBGDR allocations when provided by HUD under congressional authority.
▶ 0:25:15Specifically, the universal notice is intended to provide increased transparency, consistency, and more timely access to CDBGDR funds by grantees to help minimize program delays and accelerate recovery. Some members of Congress have also introduced legislation that would authorize CDBGR or a similar program.
▶ 0:25:40For example, in the 119th Congress, the Reforming Disaster Recovery Act would formalize HUD's role in disaster management by establishing the Office of Disaster Management and Resiliency within HUD, authorizing CDBGR as a standing program, and establishing a dedicated fund in the Treasury for the Natural Disaster Recovery Program Act of 2025 would establish unmet needs assistance authorities
▶ 0:26:10within the Federal Emergency Management Agency or Any authorization of unmet needs assistance may require Congress to consider a range of questions, including but not limited to what agency might be the best fit to administer this program?
▶ 0:26:28What primary objectives would guide the program's design and what, if any, aspects of the current approach might be Congress could also consider expanding predesaster mitigation investments as an alternative alternative or additional approach. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify before you today. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:26:51Thank you very much, Mr. Cave. You are now recognized for five minutes for your oral remarks. Thank you, Chairman Flood, Ranking Member Cleaver, Chairman Hill, and Ranking Member Waters, and the members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on examining local needs in disaster recovery. My name is Pat Cave.
▶ 0:27:15Know that I served Congressman Richard Baker from Louisiana on this subcommittee over 30 years ago, uh, when Rick Lazio chaired the subcommittee. It's an honor to be back to testify. Presently, I'm the senior vice president of policy for Enterprise Community Enterprise is a national nonprofit that exists to make a good home possible for families across the country. We support community development organizations on the ground.
▶ 0:27:46We aggregate and invest capital. We advance housing policy at every level of government and build and manage communities ourselves. Since 1982, we have invested 92 billion dollars and created or preserved over 1 million homes. As a Louisiana, I have a personal understanding of the urgency of disaster recovery.
▶ 0:28:08In 2005, I co-founded a community development nonprofit committed to building sustainable, affordable communities in vulnerable regions after natural disasters. We developed housing for over 460 Louisiana families in the wake of hurricanes Katrina and Rita and built nearly a 100 homes in California after the wildfires and in Florida after hurricanes Irma and Michael. My testimony makes three points.
▶ 0:28:39We should build resilient housing to withstand disasters both before and after storms. We should preserve and retrofit existing housing before the next storm. And we must draw lessons learned when disasters strike so we can expedite recovery.
▶ 0:28:58Through our building resilient futures initiative, Enterprise focuses on advancing cost-effective building practices, showing that resilient efficient housing can be delivered at scale in a practical way. Our enterprise green communities framework, which is used in both new construction, and in rehabilitation, provides a set of standards that promote durability, efficiency, and long-term performance.
▶ 0:29:23And to date, nearly 240,000 homes have been developed or preserved using these approaches, supporting over two million We work at the state and local level and targeted technical assistance. We also work closely with state housing finance agencies to incorporate resilience. For example, in the low-income housing tax credit program. Even as we build stronger homes, a significant portion of recovery happens across the existing housing stock.
▶ 0:29:52For many communities, particularly smaller and rural communities. This is where the greatest need and the most practical opportunity exists. Across the country, much of the housing stock is aging and increasingly vulnerable. In states like Nebraska, for example, nearly half of the state's housing stock was built before 1970, over 66 years ago.
▶ 0:30:15Retrofitting and preserving these homes is a practical riskmanagement approach that reduces repeat losses, shortens recovery timelines, and helps ensure that investments are used more We must draw lessons for future disasters will occur so that we can expedite recovery.
▶ 0:30:37We list those lessons in our written testimony, ranging from focusing on long-term housing from the very beginning to streamlining existing regulations and reducing administrative burden. Also in our written testimony, you'll see several policy recommendations such as providing stable funding to disasterstricken communities, providing flexible financing tools to support nonprofit-led recovery, and employing and improving the delivery of
▶ 0:31:07tools like the low-income housing tax credit program, the new markets tax credit program, as well as the opportunity zone program. At the core, partnerships between FEMA, HUD, state and local governments, and local stakeholders are key to ensuring the success of these efforts.
▶ 0:31:25So, on behalf of Enterprise, I want to thank Chairman Flood, Ranking Member Clever, Chairman Hill, and the members of this subcommittee for your continued attention to these issues and your bipartisan leadership here. and I should add other recent housing legislation, including your recent h home reforms.
▶ 0:31:45When we invest in resilient housing, we retrofit existing homes, we strengthen local capacity, and we streamline recovery programs, we do much for our local communities when disaster strikes. Enterprise looks forward to working with you in this subcommittee to advance common sense solutions. Thank you.
▶ 0:32:07Thank you, Mr. Cave. Miss Lrron, you are now recognized for five minutes for your oral remarks.
▶ 0:32:14Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members. Thank you for having me here today. My name is Heather Lrron, and I work at the Texas General Land Office as senior deputy director of our disaster recovery programs. The Texas General Land Office is the Texas agency tasked by Governor Abbott to administer disaster recovery on behalf of the state of Texas. And I have personally been involved in the program for more than 20 years.
▶ 0:32:38Texas operates the largest CDBGDR program funded by HUD and we have a strong reputation for being very good at what we do. Today, the land office is administering 10 open grants that must follow over 30 different sets of regulations because CDBGR has never been codified.
▶ 0:32:59For more than 20 years, CDBGDR has benefited the state of Texas one grant and one event at a time, where every event comes with its own set of program rules, regulations, and requirements. Texas has used CDBGR funds to repair and replace housing, build public facilities, restore roads and bridges, create flood and drainage systems, update communication warning systems, all to strengthen Texas for the next disaster.
▶ 0:33:27During these constantly changing rules and program requirements, Texas has expended over 10 billion dollars, replacing over 40,000 housing units and supported communities with thousands of infrastructure projects benefiting millions of Texans. Disaster recovery should most definitely be codified into its own program at HUD.
▶ 0:33:49But the new program should not codify a program that has come together over the past 20 years and starts and stops that simply does not work very well. Any program created should allow for every flexibility and local control for the use of what is always limited funding while ensuring needs unrelated to disaster recovery made remain outside program design.
▶ 0:34:15States in need of disaster recovery funds should be granted that maximum flexible flexibility possible with DA disaster recovery as the top priority unlike annually funded programs that start from a sunny skies perspective where grantees have the time necessary to jump through the appropriate bureaucratic hoops. The action plan should simply define the programs being offered and how beneficiaries can access them.
▶ 0:34:43The current process has grantees developing action plans to great detail of events that are certified by the disaster declaration they have been granted from other federal programs. The grantee must then put the action plan out for a month-long public comment period that often yields little to no input, followed by a monthsl long HUD approval and review process that yields also no input.
▶ 0:35:10All which easily add six to eight months to the start of recovery activities simply for the sake of bureaucracy and regulations that m mirror a non-d disaster recovery intent. Disaster recovery eligibility should have one definition across all federal programs. HUD currently calculates a secondarily defined HUD most impacted and distressed subset of eligible counties for CDBGDR programs.
▶ 0:35:40This calculation looks at unmet need in total dollars which skews 80% of disaster recovery funding toward areas of greater population and does disadvantage rural areas. The allocation methodology prioritizes total dollars of losses, favoring larger urban jurisdictions while underestimating the relative impact on smaller communities with fewer local resources, smaller tax bases, and limited capacity to absorb
▶ 0:36:12recovery cost. Considering per capita impacts or similar measures as a part of the allocation formula methodology would give more complete picture of the needs in both rural and urban counties. Even better, HUD simply relying on a presidential declaration established under the Stafford Act would be timelier, more efficient, and fairer without fur without narrowing the eligibility list.
▶ 0:36:41The state of Texas has been a successful participant in CDBGDR funding for a long time and we are very grateful for the benefits that we have received from this program. It is past time for the program to be codified into something that is directly responsive to disaster recovery needs while not adding more regulatory burdens. I appreciate the opportunity to share these perspectives and would be glad to provide any additional information or answer any questions you may have.
▶ 0:37:12Mrs. McGara, you are now recognized for five minutes for your oral remarks.
▶ 0:37:16Thank you, Chairman Flood, Ranking Member Clever, Chairman Hill, and members of the committee. My name is Stephanie McGara, and I'm the deputy secretary of community revitalization for the North Carolina Department of Commerce. I'm responsible for the implementation of North Carolina's community development block grant disaster recovery funds for hurricane Helen recovery.
▶ 0:37:37CDBGDR has been essential to help the state of North Carolina address the unmet needs of low to moderate income families and communities in western North Carolina. And I support the permanent authorization of the CDBGDR program. While CDBGDR is flexible funding that allows states and local governments to respond to the disasters they have experienced, improvements could be made to the program's requirements and processes via permanent authorizing language.
▶ 0:38:06Hurricane Helen hit North Carolina in September of 2024, causing significant damage to the western part of the state with flooding, landslides, high winds that killed 108 North Carolinians and resulted in $60 billion worth of damage to homes and communities. This was by far the most devastating storm to North Carolina by a factor of three.
▶ 0:38:31In January 2025, we were allocated 1.4 4 billion in CDBGDR funds by HUD to address some of this damage inflicted by Helen. And we've made some significant progress in the last 17 months. We've developed and launched rep recovery programs, received 8,000 applications [clears throat] for single family housing repair and completed the construction of now 70 homes with another 950 more underway.
▶ 0:38:58and we've opened application windows for multif family housing and commercial district revitalization with infrastructure soon to follow. While we receive CDBGDR funding more quickly this time in comparison to previous disasters, there are additional pro improvements that can be made to the program that will facilitate faster and more efficient recovery for disaster survivors and communities.
▶ 0:39:23I respectfully propose that the committee consider the following changes to enable CDBGR to be quicker and more responsive. One, promote uh uh permanently authorized CDBGR while promoting flexibility. We waited three and a half months for Hurricane Helen allocations, but in the past, we had to wait a year and a half. and permanent authorization would allow HUD to issue a notice of allocations more quickly and make disaster recovery more reliable and faster.
▶ 0:39:53We do have a great structure for um low to moderate income families, but any additional requirements would reduce our flexibility to meet the survivors needs of survivors and add extra time. We also need flexibility because even within North Carolina, what happens in eastern North Carolina and our recovery there in a flat coastal area is very different than the recovery required in western North Carolina, which is Secondly, we would I would suggest that you
▶ 0:40:23allow states to leverage our action plans that are already in place. Heather talked about this from Texas's perspective. Um, ours process took at least four to five months and I'm regularly talking with citizens in western North Carolina who are sitting in moldy houses. So, the four to five month process could have been greatly Third, make data sharing agreements between federal agencies and CDBGR grantees automatic.
▶ 0:40:51It's important that we get the data from these other federal agencies, but it takes months. Again, we have a lot of distrust of government in western North Carolina. So, we had to knock on 56,000 doors in order to get people to know about this program and to be willing to talk to us to register. We needed the FEMA data to do it. We just needed it a lot faster. Um, fourth, remove overlapping federal, state, and local requirements.
▶ 0:41:18If you're rebuilding houses on the same lots, going through a full federal NEPA compliant environmental reviews is a very timeconsuming process. It took us seven months to get through a tier one environmental review and then for each individual home, we're waiting another 80 to 90 days. So again, whatever we can do to streamline these requirements um would be helpful and it'll make sure that more funds are directed to recovery costs as opposed to administrative expenses.
▶ 0:41:46I would like to express my gratitude and appreciation to the HUD grants management staff who've really helped North Carolina as we set up a new state recovery structure and I appreciate the willingness of this committee to consider permanent authorization of CDBGDR funding to speed recovery for low to moderate income families and communities while maintaining the flexibility of these funds for states and local governments doing the difficult work of recovery. Thank you and I welcome any questions.
▶ 0:42:13Thank you very much. I'll now uh turn to member questions. I recognize myself for five minutes. Miss Lrron, you provide a unique perspective to our conversation today. As a representative from Texas, a state that's seen more than its share of disasters. Uh you've been the subject of several allocations of CBDGDR funds. Uh can you provide us with some useful insight into the problems with the current formation of the program? Here's my question.
▶ 0:42:43uh you said in your testimony that quote simply doesn't work well end quote. Can you describe the most significant challenges your state has with CDBG DR allocations?
▶ 0:42:57Yes, sir. Thank you for that question. Um it it literally just takes too long to get to the funding. um all of the hoops that we have to jump through to get to the funds is what is delaying recovery efforts.
▶ 0:43:13So is there any difference in how the funds uh can be used in a large urban area versus a rural area? Do any of those geographic issues present challenges with the program? There's always limitations in capacity of the governments that we're working with um and their ability to implement the recovery and in some cases that capacity is not necessarily better in an urban area or less in a rural area. But we definitely see capacity issues with those communities.
▶ 0:43:43So a lot of technical assistance um is definitely required for those communities. Have you had an opportunity to review the Senate's uh amended version of the 21st Century Road to Housing Bill?
▶ 0:43:57Yes, sir.
▶ 0:43:58Uh are you familiar with section 501?
▶ 0:44:00Yes, sir.
▶ 0:44:01And this is the section entitled Reforming Disaster Recovery Act. Is that
▶ 0:44:06Uh does does this provision sufficiently address your underlying concerns with the way the program functions?
▶ 0:44:14No, sir. It is codifying the program that we're operating today and it adds a few extra regulations on top of that.
▶ 0:44:22Thank you very much. Next, I'd like to pivot to what some alternative ideas on this matter may be. As I think about what we should prioritize in disaster recovery, I think we need funding that is flexible, works quickly, and prioritizes mitigation and resilience. I appreciated Mr. Cave's comments on that. After all, if we're asking taxpayers to allocate funds for these projects, we want to ensure the area that received federal funds is better prepared in the event of a ne another disaster. Uh Mr.
▶ 0:44:50Cave, Miss Lrron, Miss McGara, Mrs. McGara, you have varying views on the effectiveness of the program. My question for each of you is whether uh you would be open to ideas for disaster recovery that seek to replace the current structure of the program with an alternative operating outside the structure of CDBG. Let's start with you uh Mr. Cave.
▶ 0:45:13Yeah, we would we had a set of policy recommendations in the written testimony. I would say two things. One, um CDBGDR is not enough, right? We we should commit to streamlining the program and we do support CDBGDR and we would invite a conversation about other solutions.
▶ 0:45:35Mr. Lrron,
▶ 0:45:37uh yes sir. Similarly, I would suggest that CDBG is a sunny skies program and shoving a disaster recovery program under a sunny skies program is not working well. So a standalone disaster recovery program would make a lot of sense. And would you keep that at HUD or would you move it to FEMA?
▶ 0:45:56Um, I think I would keep it at HUD. Uh, FEMA's regulations and FEMA's teams, in my opinion, are definitely more in the response of a recovery as opposed to the longer term recovery efforts that come from the CDBG type allocation.
▶ 0:46:15Mrs. McGara,
▶ 0:46:16I would support a CDB I would support a standalone disaster recovery program or the changes that we suggested making the current CDBGDR program more flexible. I agree that it needs to be more flexible and and more certain and I would keep it with FE um HUD. We have not had the best experience with FEMA with the lane.
▶ 0:46:38What has been your experience with FEMA?
▶ 0:46:40Delays. Lots of delays. So here's just a question on the way the program's structured now. Can you build does it pay for resilience or do you have to build what you had?
▶ 0:46:50Uh Mr. uh
▶ 0:46:55uh yes Jerosk yeah
▶ 0:46:57so I can I can speak to that briefly. Uh currently CDBGR can be used for rebuilding above and beyond. Um and also there are now a percentage uh additional funds for CDBG mitigation which can be used even more flexibly for mitigation type uh measures.
▶ 0:47:20Okay, I ran out of time. I yield back. I now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Clever, for his opening uh comments and questions. You're recognized for five
▶ 0:47:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, M. M uh, Mera, um, one of the proposals before this committee is the Reforming Disaster Recovery Act led by, uh, Congressman Al Green. Uh, the bill does many things including requiring federal agencies to share all data to improve coordination of the disaster recovery process.
▶ 0:47:56Uh, as well as increase oversight and data uh and another authorizing the creation of a CDBG DR reserve fund that can quickly disperse initial recovery funding post disaster without waiting for a new congressional action. Also developing a formula to allocate assistance to the most impacted areas.
▶ 0:48:23uh creating a capacity building and technical assistance set aside and a couple other things. Would would these changes that I've just me mentioned uh benefit the families and communities that uh you're serving in North
▶ 0:48:36They would. I'm not as certain about the formula. I haven't I'm not sure how that would play out. And I know the current formula that we have has, as Heather spoke about with Texas, we've had problems in North Carolina as well where it's left out rural areas. North Carolina is the second most rural population in the country behind Texas. So, we would want to make sure that any formula covers both the rural and urban, but the data sharing would be much
▶ 0:49:04Thank you. Uh Mr. Lron, um you testified before uh oversight and investigations subcommittee a few years back, 2018. uh and you said and I quote, "The flexibility of the CDBG program is what makes it really the best uh programs to put these disaster recovery dollars into.
▶ 0:49:30Um and so that you go on to say the CDBG program is the right program for this. I think a permanent regulation keeping all the flexibility possible for the CD CDBGR program would be the absolute answer. Uh your testimony today uh is disaster recovery should most definitely be codified into its own program at HUD.
▶ 0:49:56Uh but the new program should not simply direct what is happening today with more time consuming regulations as has been proposed. Uh can you help me fix that? I mean um your your position today which what I mean can you help me?
▶ 0:50:19Sure. Sure. Thank you for that. So CDBG is definitely one of the most flexible programs in the federal portfolio of grants. Um, but it could be more flexible and after some some time passing and recognizing that those those layers could be peeled back a bit, I think that it would make sense to follow maybe the CDBG program as initiation point from a regulatory perspective but pull back on some of the requirements that are in it
▶ 0:50:49right now. Um, the data sharing issue is definitely something that has come up. Um it we were able in the state of Texas to go to our department of emergency management and get that very same data in a matter of hours before this went into place. Now it takes six nine months to get that data through the federal process and our sister agency, the Department of Emergency Management, has been told they're not allowed to give us that information.
▶ 0:51:18So allowing us to just get the data that we've always had access to as a state would make a whole lot of sense and would move the ball considerably. The new the new um proposed language adds proportional funding for the first time. So you would absolutely have to take a point in time immediately following an event, look at all of the numbers related to the different types of recovery and then impose that over your program for the full term of your program.
▶ 0:51:48So a snapshot in time defining how you're going to prorrate the use of funds, housing, infrastructure, planning, economic development. That's not an ideal way to allocate the funds. you need to be allowed to move the funds where the need is to the best of your ability as the program progresses. The bill right now has the secretary as the only entity allowed to wave that proportionality and waiverss through HUD are quite frankly tough to get.
▶ 0:52:16So that's the f flexibility. That's
▶ 0:52:19correct. Yes, sir.
▶ 0:52:20Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
▶ 0:52:23Thank you, Mr. Clever. The gentleman from Arkansas, Chairman Hill, is now recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Chairman Flood, and again, thank the witnesses for being with us today. There's no doubt that your testimony demonstrates that the disaster recovery program is intended to be good and could be a force for good if it were properly structured.
▶ 0:52:44I think you've made that clear in a number of different However, over the years, the lack of a formal authorization is yet another missed opportunity to create certainty and structure in normal times so that we aren't forced to make new and ad hoc rules every time there's a disaster strikes and appropriation granted to this account.
▶ 0:53:06But I think there are three basic objectives that we need to answer about CDBGR uh before we try to legislate its permanent existence. So, let's talk about those. Mr. Jurassic, let me start with you. Uh, from your study of this program, I'm not sure that HUD has the necessary personnel and the ability to ensure that these dollars are spent efficiently and for the highest need.
▶ 0:53:33Also, by routing the dollars through the CDBG program, DR funding is required not only to have a disaster oriented impact, but also to be a CDBG eligible activity. uh which and meet one of the statutory obligations of the CDBG u program. So is HUD the right agency to do this kind of disaster recovery assistance?
▶ 0:53:58So Congress has definitely considered other options and I can't necessarily say what the right fit would be. I I would note yes that GAO and OIG have consistently raised concerns about staffing capacity at HUD and the time and the guidance provided internally for reviewing CDBGDR uh paperwork and grantee documents.
▶ 0:54:28Uh Miss Lone, you've you testified that you've received more CDBGDR money than anybody else in the country. We don't doubt that Texas is big and they do disasters big and recovery big too. But over your two decades of experience, I mean, both you and our witness from North Carolina just talked about serious uh delays and bureaucracy in the program.
▶ 0:54:53So, if Congress wants disaster funding to really make a difference in helping victims in that disaster context, what should it uh not do to allow you to get, you know, back to uh the most bang for your buck, do you think? In other words, how what what is that feature that we really need to codify to make it work more effectively with our state partners?
▶ 0:55:18I believe that we need to step out of disaster recovery at the federal level and allow as much local control as possible. Um what you see when nationally mandated proportions to different types of programs is communities choosing um their their least priorities in recovery.
▶ 0:55:40When you see a requirement for certain um types of activities, then communities are going to use the funds for those types of activities, though they may not be their best benefit. In Texas, we do get hit by a lot of disasters, and we are always oversubscribed in our programs, and our communities are forced to choose projects or recovery efforts that fit into those requirements that you just listed.
▶ 0:56:06Well, maybe maybe you could compare FEMA's, you know, emergency day one assistance and short-term lending and then the SBA programs and isolate things that relate to housing recovery or housing community development recovery and send us a list of what those priorities are because obviously there's a debate in Congress about granting the states a lot more discretion about customizing the recovery with some federal grant money instead of prescribing.
▶ 0:56:35exactly how it ought to be done and that would be helpful. U Mr. Cave, let me turn to you. Uh using federal grant money to repay federal loans strikes to me as misguided but also a violation and may be prohibited under other federal statutes. Likewise, HUD IG is constantly complained about the misuse and misallocation of this program.
▶ 0:56:59Um, how could we better have better certainty about that the funds granted are actually used for the specific
▶ 0:57:09Well, that's a good question. Um, it it does seem to me a lot of what we read from the inspector general at HUD is um uh we saw in the state of Louisiana, they went back and audited, found 670 million that uh was not tied directly to the um road home grant program. Look, I I think we step back and and echo what Heather is describing, which is uh getting the money to the states as quickly as possible and ensuring
▶ 0:57:38I appreciate that. My time's expired, but anything you want to expand on on the accuracy aspect would be helpful to our work. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 0:57:45Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The gentleoman from California, the ranking member of the full committee, Miss Waters, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:57:53Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, uh and members. Uh I understand uh that uh this hearing is all about looking at the systems and how they work or they don't work. And really uh uh we've been talking about this since Katrina with CDBGR and uh some of the people never got compensated uh down there in New Orleans. But let me tell you, I want to talk about California today.
▶ 0:58:19We have displaced people in California in Pacific Palisades in Aladena. Homes have been burned down, lost everything. And the president of the United States came out there and said that he was going to get emergency funds to get that done, to get the work done. He has done nothing. The cabinet has done nothing. The people are continued to suffer. But look at this.
▶ 0:58:49Why is it we have 30 to 45 billion dollars spent on a war in Iran and we don't even know why we're there? Why is it that the president wants to have the largest arch in the country which cost 100 million that already tearing down what we got to replace it? Why is it we, the president, can find 400 million uh to repair the east wing that he tore down that he didn't even come to the Congress of the United States uh to talk about doing it?
▶ 0:59:20Why is it we can't get this emergency done? Why is it what the president came out to Los Angeles and promised after he blamed everybody uh but you know, human nature, I don't want to talk about the system. I don't want to talk about what HUD has not been done. What are Republicans doing? What is the president of the United States doing to get that money out to California? You're destroying our city. You have people at each other's throats.
▶ 0:59:49You have an election that's in chaos. All about the fact that we don't have the emergency money. That's what I'm all about. And so if I'm a little bit upset about this today, it is because I've just come from another meeting where we're talking about who's to blame for what. The president of the United States of America can find money to do whatever he wants to do with it. But I know one thing that I believe about him. He's punishing my state.
▶ 1:00:19He's punishing my city. He's punishing my county. People are suffering. We're at each other's throats and all of those who are taking the blame in the city are taking the blame for what the president of the United States is not doing. He can provide the leadership on this. He's brazen. He doesn't care about anything or anybody else when he decides to do something. So, what can we say? Don't tell me about what needs to be tickled in the system.
▶ 1:00:48We know that the system is messed up. We've been talking about CDBGR since I got involved with Katrina in New Orleans. I want to know why the president of the United States of America will not give the leadership that is needed for the emergency fund in California, in my city right now. Stop this this meeting and let's talk about California right now.
▶ 1:01:26Does the gentle lady yield back?
▶ 1:01:28My time is not up.
▶ 1:01:30If you want to be silent, that tells a story. But if you want to talk about start the conversation. What do you know, Mr. Chair, about what is happening with emergency needs in California? I'm not blaming you for anything, but if you know something, do you have a relationship with your president? Can you talk with him about it? California wants to have their government of the United States of America do what it's supposed to do in an emergency.
▶ 1:02:01People are homeless. We've been waiting and waiting and Anybody got anything to say today about California, about Los Angeles, about Pacific Palisades, about Aladena? People are on the ground. They're still trying to find um you know, homes to live in. They're asking for help. I've been helping the ministers out there.
▶ 1:02:29We had over 10 ministers who churches and homes had been burned down. And I had friends come all the way from New York with $100,000 to try and help them or to at least get some clothing to go on their back to find some place to stay. And so if I'm being disruptive, that's exactly what I want to be. I want to be disruptive today.
▶ 1:02:51And I want to talk about California and the needs that we have that are not being met and what the president of the United States is not The gentleoman from Texas, Miss Da Cruz, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:03:06Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, uh, for holding this hearing today. And my goodness, uh, my colleague wanted some answers about California, and she asked, "Does anybody have anything to say about California?" I sure do. when it comes to election fraud and the terrible state leadership that has caused the homelessness that my colleague
▶ 1:03:28that's not gerine to this hearing.
▶ 1:03:30Excuse me, but I'm reclaiming my time because this is my time. So, that being said, we're going to talk about another issue that is very important uh besides the terrible leadership that California has and that has caused the homelessness that my colleague wanted to talk about that.
▶ 1:03:48So, I will want to first give a warm welcome to the same people in Texas where we have good state leadership and we're not seeing the homelessness and reck recklessness that we have in
▶ 1:04:02Mr. Chairman, this isn't about
▶ 1:04:04I'm reclaiming my time.
▶ 1:04:06This isn't about a partisan issue.
▶ 1:04:08I'm from Texas and I have a different
▶ 1:04:14Miss Dea Cruz is recognized. I want to give a warm Texas welcome to Miss Heather Lrron with the Texas General Land Office. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for your leadership and I'm thankful to the state of Texas and the state leadership that we have there. We're glad that you are here and we can talk all about the great things that Texas is doing.
▶ 1:04:39So, what we're going to talk about today is um some of the benefits of cottifying the community de development block grant to discovery program and um what that has um what that has led to in our local communities.
▶ 1:04:58As your testimony stated, Miss Lrron, you believe that the disaster recovery program should be codified into its own program at HUD, but highlighted that we could that we should not simply codify a broken system. In your experience, how long does it generally take from the time Congress authorizes funds to the time assistance is in the hands of dis disaster recovery victims?
▶ 1:05:28Is it months or is it years?
▶ 1:05:32Thank you for that. Um, it is more than a year in almost every instance. Well, as Congress looks for a more efficient system, what reforms to the current CDBG DR structure would you want to see before uh codification to ensure that we speed up assistance for the disaster So the state of Texas has done disaster recovery for quite some time like you mentioned, but every
▶ 1:06:02time we have a disaster event, we have to go through a monthslong process to prove that we have the capacity to administer a program. That capacity could be abbreviated greatly by default of a current relationship with the HUD programs. the action plan development that we do could just be about the programs that we're offering to our beneficiaries and not go into a litany of redisussion discussing the event that we've just suffered.
▶ 1:06:33So, um, Miss Lrron, to stay with you just a bit longer, the Senate's version of the 21st Century Road to Housing Act included a proposal to codify the CDBGDR program. I've had extensive outreach on this proposal, including from my largest county, Halago County, um, and the judge in Hoggo County, who highlighted concerns with how that section is currently written.
▶ 1:07:02One of the specific concerns highlighted is the current formula does not treat rural counties fairly. Would you agree with this?
▶ 1:07:11Yes, ma'am. I agree. And as a member representing many rural counties, what would fixing this issue ultim ultimately mean for constituents impacted by If the formula that allocated the funds included a per capita type um disaster per person as opposed to just total dollars, that would make a world of difference.
▶ 1:07:36Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask by unanimous consent that two letters be entered into the record. Uh, one from Halago County Judge Richard Cortez asking me to oppose section 501 of the Senate bill and the second from Commissioner of the Texas General Land Office, Don Buckingham.
▶ 1:08:02Without objection.
▶ 1:08:04Thank you so much. I yield back.
▶ 1:08:06General Lady yields back. The gentleoman from New York, Miss Velasquez, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:08:13Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I am just relieving uh the situation that took place in Puerto Rico under Hurricane Maria. 4,000 people die when disaster natural disaster strikes. The victims are not Republicans or Democrats.
▶ 1:08:43They are And we here in Congress who has the power of the purse and the president whose basic most fundamental responsibility is to show up and assist when Americans are suffering. We must come together and look for So, Mr.
▶ 1:09:08Chairman, I am glad that you referenced the $2 billion allocated to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands because it gives me an opportunity to set the record straight. You want to know why Puerto Rico hasn't been able to adequately spend the money?
▶ 1:09:28Because this president instructed FEMA during his first administration to block the dispersement of any recovery funds for Puerto Rico's recovery. After Maria, I requested an investigation to the IG. The report concluded that the obstructions to the dispersement were And here we are.
▶ 1:09:57Nine years later, still imposing more restrictive requirements on the use of recovery money, like Secretary Num's ridiculous directive to have FEMA approve any contract above which as anyone can imagine has created further roadblocks towards the recovery for an island that continues to suffers from lack lack of
▶ 1:10:28access to essential services like running water and a reliable electric grid. So, I'm glad that I was given this opportunity to set the record straight because we as Americans and as members of the US Congress should be ashamed that we allow for the people of Puerto Rico today not to be ready to face
▶ 1:10:58even a category one hurricane. Shame on us. These are Puerto Rican Americans. They are our problem because we acquired them in 1898 and until the last day that I'm here, I will be fighting to make it right.
▶ 1:11:19So, Miss Leron, I think that we can all agree that funding for disaster recovery should be delivered as quickly as possible. Yet during previous attempts to codify the CDBGDR program, I have maintained that states, localities, and territories need the flexibility to utilize federal resources in ways that best serve their needs.
▶ 1:11:49After all, not every disaster is the same. How do you think we strike that appropriate balance? And I heard you loud and clear when you say that one of the biggest issue that we have is that it takes too long to get to the funds and two capacity issues, technical assistant. Imagine for 3.5 million Puerto Rican Americans who main language is Spanish.
▶ 1:12:19So please
▶ 1:12:22thank you for that. Um, disaster recovery is, like you say, not a one-sizefits-all program, and nor should it be. Um, recovering from a fire is different than recovering on an island than recovering in the state of Texas is. So, again, back to that flexibility that we've been talking about all morning. It being so very critical to how we move the funds forward.
▶ 1:12:45giving the ability to make those decisions on the ground, giving the technical assistance that's necessary from HUD very timely as opposed to waiting for answers or having to do the best that we can with the information that we have. All of those things would definitely move us forward in the ability to respond in a recovery event much more
▶ 1:13:11Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:13:13Gentle lady yields back. The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Rose, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:13:18Thank you, Chairman Flood and and Riking Member Clever for holding this hearing. And thank you to our witnesses uh for being here today. Let me be blunt. The community development block grant disaster recovery, CDBGDR. It's kind of a mouthful program is slow, duplicative, and routinely fails the very people is supposed to help. Communities don't need a second clunkier system layered on top of the first. They need help that actually shows up on time.
▶ 1:13:47That is why it is so baffling to watch our colleagues in the Senate look at this track record and conclude that the answer is more of it. Disaster recovery should be handled in one place by one agency that is built for it. Instead, we have drifted into a fragmented approach that slows everything down.
▶ 1:14:08It is time to end the experiment, consolidate recovery where it belongs at FEMA, and let housing officials focus on housing again. Mr. Cave, if CDBGDR funding is often used for broad recovery efforts beyond housing, what is the justification for keeping it under HUD instead of moving it to FEMA to reduce fragmentation and improve efficiency?
▶ 1:14:37Well, it's a very good question, Congressman. Um, look, I I think culturally from what I've seen in our work in Louisiana and Florida is emergency preparedness personnel are focused on logistics. Um, and they serve a governor in a GOEP office which is really about emergency preparedness and execution. Uh, individual assistance from the get-go. HUD is longer term. It's designed and focused on housing.
▶ 1:15:06So, how do we get uh a an immediate individual assistance focus on principally housing? I think we would say the the the problem is um CDBG doesn't work well. You can create a permanent authorization, but it's really in the rule making where the execution is. And I would bring in emergency personnel. I'd bring in the state housing officials. and I'd rewrite the rules so that money from day one can show up in housing.
▶ 1:15:37Thank you. I completely agree with that approach. Uh Mr. Lrron, you you advocate in your written testimony testimony for a unified disaster recovery eligibility standard. But as long as HUD and FEMA run parallel programs, differing rules are inevitable. Doesn't that contradiction suggest that consolidation at FEMA is the only realistic path to Thank you for that. I agree with Mr.
▶ 1:16:03Cave that um FEMA's current mission is more about that immediate response whereas HUD is more equipped for a long-term operation. We just need to drag HUD a little closer to that response um thought process.
▶ 1:16:19I think you're more optimistic than you should be about the ability for two federal agencies to collaborate on something like this. So, with all due respect, I think the answer is one place or the other. And I think because we are talking about responding to emergencies, FEMA is that place and should be that place. Uh Mr.
▶ 1:16:38Jerasic, given the ad hoc structure of the CBDGR uh CB CDBGDR program, HUD's Office of Inspector General has identified persistent weaknesses in grantee guidance, oversight, and data collection that heighten the risk of improper payments and make it more difficult to detect fraud, uh waste, and abuse. Past examples, including over 690 million in questionable spending in Louisiana's Road Home program and continued GAO warnings, underscore these vulnerabilities.
▶ 1:17:08Could you briefly explain the key oversight gaps in CDBGDR and how they contribute to these risks? And you got about a minute. Thank you for the question. Yes. Um I think part of the issue is the well the lack of authorization can you know create a situation where HUD is essentially standing up a new program each time that Congress provides the funds.
▶ 1:17:33Additionally, o both IG and GIO have identified deficiencies in HUD's internal communication, internal uh guidance on monitoring and assessing grantee uh capacity among other issues.
▶ 1:17:51Um also OIG has pointed to data collection as a key challenge for HUD and uh you know insufficient accounting software tools that HUD uses. These these all kind of can help to contribute to challenges that HUD faces.
▶ 1:18:12Thank you. I see that my time's about to expire. Appreciate your your frank answers and I yield back the balance of my time.
▶ 1:18:18Gentlemen yields back the gentleman. Gentlewoman from Massachusetts, Miss Presley, is now recognized for five
▶ 1:18:25Thank you, Mr. Chair. I represent the the Massachusetts 7th, which is a frontline community. We've experienced and endured all types of natural disasters from hurricanes to blizzards, severe flooding, and with increasing frequency due to climate change, frontline communities throughout the country are witnessing firsthand how natural disasters affect public health, personal finances, mental wellness, and even housing affordability. When a natural disaster hits, housing prices rise. This is the econ the economics of supply and demand.
▶ 1:18:55Homes are destroyed. People have to move. So there is greater need and the costs increase. The cost of housing is already too high. We all can agree on that. So we need policies and budgets that truly help people especially when they are trying to recover from a catastrophic uh disruptive event completely outside their control. That's why HUD's community development block grant for disaster recovery, CDBGDR, is so critical.
▶ 1:19:19These funds can be used to support renters and homeowners alike, following a disaster, prepare homes for mitigation to withstand future disasters, and provide emergency rental payments like HUD provided during the CO 19 pandemic. One recent study actually found that zip codes that had access to HUD's disaster recovery fund saw more stable rent prices compared to zip codes without HUD's funding supports. Mr.
▶ 1:19:45Jeros, can you share CS CRS's work related to the importance of rental support during disaster recovery and the impacts on affordability in the housing Yes, CRS has, you know, monitored the same sort of research that you're pointing to and it a lot of the academic research on CDBGR does point to significant benefits for u you know individuals that live in rental
▶ 1:20:15housing um tend to benefit more from CDBGDR assistance than other um individuals that did not receive CDBGR. our
▶ 1:20:27Okay. Thank you. Um Mrs. McGara, despite the clear benefits of CDBG DR and this this program, it's not permanently signed into law. So, what does that uncertainty mean for places using those funds to support low-income households and renters?
▶ 1:20:45Thank you for the question. It just means that there are a lot of delays and a lot of uncertainty, which are two things you really don't want when you're trying to recover from a disaster. Thank you. Strengthening CDBGDR means more people being able to catch their breath financially after a disaster. When a renter or homeowner, whether they're either of those, CDBGDR program supports entire communities truly. It's the small business owner who wants to continue living in the same city after a disaster. It's the parents who don't want to switch their child to a new school district.
▶ 1:21:15It's the seniors afraid that they'll be priced out of their unit if rental prices increase. So, this supports the whole community. While the Trump administration is working actively to cut this program, I'm going to keep fighting and my Democratic colleagues to support community development block grants because it actually helps people. And I urge my colleagues across the aisle to do the same. I yield uh the balance of my time to ranking member Thank you very much.
▶ 1:21:42Let me just ask all of the members, the witnesses are here today. Do you know how much money the state of California uh puts into the federal taxes, federal government taxes? You know how much? Anybody know? 800 billion in federal taxes.
▶ 1:22:04Do you know that we pay uh 83 billion more than we receive back uh in uh California? Um let me just ask this also. Do you know uh that despite the fact uh that we are paying for everything and everybody along with others?
▶ 1:22:27I understand North Carolina I think your governor is here today for resources and I understand that people are living in molded homes etc etc. Is that true? Uh, Miss McGrath,
▶ 1:22:44yes, we are. We need more resources to recover from Helen and our governor is here today.
▶ 1:22:51Do you know whether or not he is being received by the president of the United States who spends all of our money any way that he'd like to spend it? Do you know that he has an audience?
▶ 1:23:03I'm not aware of his schedule. I'm Did any of you know about the history of Aladena that burned down? Maybe you've heard about Pacific Palisades, but do you heard about Aladena? Do you know what Aladena is? Do you know about the legacy homes there? Well, let me just say this. Let's all join in this fight together so that we can stop this president from picking and choosing. He hates California.
▶ 1:23:34He is absolutely punishing us.
▶ 1:23:37The gentleoman's time
▶ 1:23:38because he does not like us. And whoever said uh indicated that there was some
▶ 1:23:43The gentle woman's time is expired.
▶ 1:23:45The gentleoman's time is
▶ 1:23:46Thank you very much.
▶ 1:23:48The gentleman from Montana for yielding the time.
▶ 1:23:50Mr. Downing is
▶ 1:23:51Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh thank you for holding this chair and thank you to the witnesses for being here. um victims of natural disasters, they expect the deployment of federal assistance to be as seamless as possible with guardrails as appropriate. And like most federal programs, there are inefficiencies that need to be addressed with how the federal government handles disaster recovery.
▶ 1:24:14However, some in Congress have taken this to mean that we must make permanent a new program entirely, one of which has already been shown to be an inefficient complement to traditional disaster aid. So, uh, I'm going to start with Mr. Cave. Do you believe it's appropriate for HUD to have a role in disaster recovery at all when we have
▶ 1:24:37So, I I do and I think the challenge, let me give you an example. Um, post Katrina, we had 100,000 travel trailers as a housing solution, right? Because FEMA at the time moved quickly and for many families that served them well.
▶ 1:24:57But I do think if there were more thought given to the building materials, possibly uh stocking small homes, ADUs prior where HUD who knows housing and building materials could uh design and a competition, we'd stockpile them early, FEMA and HUD could deliver on a better product immediately. So I I do think there's merit.
▶ 1:25:19Thank you. Would it make sense or more sense to reform FEMA assistance so it can be a one-stop shop or um for disaster assistance or it sounds like well just well I I think it's both like we could reform CDBGR by making it more effective for sure and we should instruct FEMA to work with HUD on first day housing needs getting met.
▶ 1:25:46Thank you. Uh Miss Lone, you have anything to add to that? No, sir. I agree with all that.
▶ 1:25:52Excellent. Thank you. Uh uh Mr. Jerich, thank you. Um so I'm going to go on to Miss Lronone here. I I represent Montana's second congressional district, which is one of the most uh rural in the country. We've got really long roads. In your written testimony, you discussed how HUD's uh CDBGR uh CDBGDR calculations can disadvantage disaster stricken rural communities in favor of urban areas.
▶ 1:26:19So, can you describe why that is and more importantly what Congress can do to address it?
▶ 1:26:24Thank you for that. Um yes. So, when HUD does the calculation to decide most impacted and distressed, they look at a total dollar value associated with damage or unmet needs. So obviously the more rooftops that you have to be damaged, the more likely that number goes up. So a county that has two million people has more damage in total dollars than a county that has 15,000
▶ 1:26:52Right. Well, thank you for that. Um, in the interest of time, I'm going to move to Mr. Jerase here. Uh, CDBGDR funding is intended to support unmet needs following a disaster.
▶ 1:27:03Sure. So why are permanent sources of disaster aid frequently leaving needs unmet to where Congress turns to other
▶ 1:27:14Yeah, I think thank you for the question. I think there's a broader question on how CDB well how disaster recovery assistance is provided and what role the federal government plays and and I don't know that I can fully answer that question but but I think there there have been gaps C CDBGR is intended to fill some of those gaps but
▶ 1:27:45with the magnitude of some recent disasters and the costs um CDWBGR cannot fill all gaps. Thanks. So, moving on a little bit here, Congress began providing funding for community development block grant disaster recovery in fiscal year 1993. So, how did the community development block grant disaster recovery program specifically become a popular pot of money to address unmet disaster related
▶ 1:28:09Sure. So this stemmed mostly out of a uh government accountability office recommendation in 1991 after several 1989 disasters where GAO identified some challenges with coordination federally and um gaps in the federal government's provision of assistance for housing and what agency ought to play the primary role in that.
▶ 1:28:38Uh so CDBGDR um subsequently was provided uh and and they utilize CDBG from my general understanding primarily because of its
▶ 1:28:50All right. Thank you. Unfortunately, I've run out of time. So on that, Mr. Chair, I yield.
▶ 1:28:55Gentleman yields back. The gentleoman from Texas, Miss Garcia, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:29:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all the witnesses. First, let me begin by saying that as Paul Harvey used to say, let's hear the other side of the story. I take exception to some of the comments that were made by Mella Cruz because for so many of us, especially myself who comes from the Houston region, uh, which is hit first, hit hardest, and probably has had the most damages, uh, occurring and fatalities and, um, after after so many disasters.
▶ 1:29:29Uh, obviously I've been a county commissioner locally. I've been a state senator and you may have appeared before me when I was in affairs. So I know all of this. It's not just a a talking point. It's not just a sound bite, but I lived it. And in Miss Alcron, it it struck me that you said um that in your opinion, it just takes too long to get funding. That's exactly what we used to say when I was in local government about the slowness of the GLLO.
▶ 1:30:00So, I'm not here to tell you that the um your program is a disaster, but it's certainly lacking. Uh and when we see that in n in 2021 uh after Harvey, Houston, Harris County was slated to get zero funding, that means that the formula is fatally flawed.
▶ 1:30:21If we're the ones that have $150 billion dollars in damages, the pictures you should see on CNN with people on rowboats and and uh uh motorboats helping people, that was my district. But you all were slow as molasses. And I can tell you that even though GLO has gotten money, it has not come to the area that I represent. And I'm trying to understand I mean I grew up in South Texas just like my colleague across the aisle but I've been in local government unlike her.
▶ 1:30:52I can tell you that I believe in making sure rural communities get money too. But when a rural community, as I told um I remember telling um one of the state senators when we were having a debate, they don't even get enough wind to fly a kite, but I've got the plants, the port, buildings, apartments just in devastation. I'm sorry, you go to the foot place where there's most need.
▶ 1:31:19So, I don't understand why you think that per capita helps because a small county like where I grew up uh where you know in my little town it was less than 100 people but in in the Houston area it's about 5 million people. Aren't rural communities still going to get less per capita? Miss Lroom? It's just a yes or no. You don't need an explanation. I need to move on. It does it doesn't really help.
▶ 1:31:48And then when you talk about needing flexibility, what does that really mean? Is it flexibility so that you can vi violate the Civil Right Act? Not only that you all have already done not once but twice and you were you were found to have discriminated based based on race in a lawsuit. The finding was made by HUD and of course one of the first things Trump did when he came into office uh was to do away with it. But is that what you mean by flexibility?
▶ 1:32:18So that you can give money to the Republican uh rural counties and forget the urban centers that have people of color, people who are poor and help and helpless. So I'm sorry. I I just can't get into this whole notion of we just need more flexibility and no and I'm not referring to you, ma'am, because I don't know enough about your state. I'm talking about Texas because it's not in my judgment a model.
▶ 1:32:44And you know, um there was a article recently that said that President Trump has rejected disaster aid for Democratic run states at the highest rate in the 47-year history of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. I know we're talking CTBG. He approved just 23% of disaster funding requests from states with Democratic governor and two Democratic senators. [snorts] And for states with Republican governors with two Republican senators, the opposite, 89%.
▶ 1:33:16Is that the flexibility you want in the state of Texas so that your governor can give the money to the Republican rural states rather than the Democratic urban states? Yes or no?
▶ 1:33:29No, ma'am.
▶ 1:33:30All right. Thank you. With that, I yield to my colleague and friend, the chair, the ranking member.
▶ 1:33:35Thank you very much. Uh there's very little time left, but I would ask any Republican who has um the nerve to request a meeting with the president of the United States today to talk about California and the fact that people are suffering and the fact that he came to California and he promised that he was going to do everything that he could to get the emergency money there.
▶ 1:33:59I know uh that asking Republicans to confront the president is a difficult thing for you to do, but somebody have the nerve to do it. That is my request today. I yield back any time that Do I still have a few minutes? Let me just say,
▶ 1:34:17Mr. Chairman, I'll reclaim my time. And
▶ 1:34:19then if I don't have any more time, you got it back.
▶ 1:34:21There is no more time remaining. We are out of time.
▶ 1:34:23Mr. Chairman, I'd like to be recognized for uh unanimous consent to for two
▶ 1:34:29Without objection.
▶ 1:34:30Thank you.
▶ 1:34:32The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Moore, is now recognized for five
▶ 1:34:36Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would submit to my colleagues that natural disasters do not distinguish between Republicans and [clears throat] Democrats. Uh in western North Carolina, I will tell you communities are still recovering after the devastation of Hurricane Helen. The storm damaged tens of thousands of homes that displaced families, left many communities facing a long and difficult rebuilding process. For many of those families, flood insurance was simply not an option. Uh these were mountain communities, not in traditionally what you would think of in a flood area.
▶ 1:35:06And so, as a result, the federal disaster recovery programs have become one of the few remaining pathways to rebuild. Uh the CDBGR is often the primary source of assistance for these unmet recovery needs after FEMA assistance, SBA loans, and charitable resources have been exhausted. First off, Miss McGara, thank you. Glad to have you here in Washington. Um by the way, you got to stay in North Carolina for the good of barbecue. Just saying. You can't find any good barbecue in Washington. So crab cakes are great though. But no barbecue here.
▶ 1:35:34Uh, North Carolina has administered the CDBGRD funding following multiple major disasters as you as you know that we've had. How is North Carolina how has our state's experience administering those grants after hurricane Helen differed from the experience say with hurricanes Matthew and Florence of course which we know where those areas are, my colleagues don't. Those were on the coast. Helen was in the mountains. What's been the difference in ministering those?
▶ 1:35:59Um, we have had a quicker turnaround in terms of getting our funds. It was around three and a half months for our allocation from HUD after Helen and I think we waited a year and a half after Florence and Matthew.
▶ 1:36:13Okay. And so the major sources delay like if there's any HUD requirements or action plan approvals, duplication of benefit reviews, etc., local capacity constraints or anything else, what what would you say I guess has been the most challenging for North Carolina this I think the length of the process for the action plan that's that's challenging. The environmental reviews have been very time consuming.
▶ 1:36:38I actually spoke with Samaritan's Purse, as you know, is a major nonprofit and they're headquartered in Boone, North Carolina, and they said that areas where they can save time, they get their money a lot faster. They don't have to go through the lengthy procurements that we have to go through. Their environmental processes are more streamlined and um they don't have all the requirements we have. Obviously, some of the requirements we need to have in place, but I think there are ways to be uh to streamline those and save time for our
▶ 1:37:04Yeah, I I believe GAO and and HUD's inspector generals have you they've repeatedly identified some challenges involving data sharing, you know, duplication of benefits, uh and improper payments. And we know unfortunately those things have happened. Uh but your testimony does raise some of the issues that that that are just out there. I actually have a bill that would require HUD to enter into form a formalou with FEMA and the SBA to improve disaster recovery data and information sharing.
▶ 1:37:32Do you think if we had greater coordination among these agencies and improving transparency that would strengthen accountability within the CDBGRD program?
▶ 1:37:40I do. I think data sharing is important and it certainly took us several months to get those in place. So that coordination would help.
▶ 1:37:49And just um in light of where where you are now, how would you describe the the response now with with the grow with grow versus what we had before with the what's called incorrectly on the housing side.
▶ 1:38:03I think we've made um improvements in North Carolina that were much needed.
▶ 1:38:08Very good. the um let me let me switch to Miss Lrron just a moment as well. Do you think that greater transparency into HUD's allocation methodology would provide states with more certainty as they plan recovery efforts?
▶ 1:38:21Yes, sir.
▶ 1:38:23Would this reporting requirement help Congress in fact uh conduct more effective oversight and make better informed decisions when authorizing and funding future disaster recovery
▶ 1:38:33I think y'all would know where the money was going much better. I
▶ 1:38:36think so. You know, the president has repeatedly emphasized that states should leave disaster recovery efforts. Um, and a lot of that principle recognizes a reality and that is that state and local officials are closer to the challenges facing communities than folks in Washington DC. And and I can, you know, I was on the plane with the president when he came to western North Carolina. It just it it it's something that I will never forget that in the same week that President Trump, Mr. chairman that he was that he was sworn into office at the inauguration.
▶ 1:39:04The first trip he took outside of Washington DC was to western North Carolina where he came there and told told our folks the folks I represent and others that that that they would not be forgotten. And I can tell you that what I've seen from this administration, from this president is an absolute commitment to getting relief to western North Carolina. We've had we've got a lot of challenges, a lot of unique challenges because you think of hurricanes, you think of a coast, the water comes up, water goes down. In the mountains, it doesn't work that way.
▶ 1:39:33And so I just it it has posed a lot of challenges. Miss McGar, I appreciate the work you've been doing there at the state and what Incor, excuse me, what NCR is doing. And uh appreciate that and uh glad to hear from him today. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 1:39:46Gentleman yields back. The gentleoman from Michigan, Miss Talib is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:39:51Thank you so much, Chairman. We all know that climate change is increasing the frequency and severity of disasters. Just alone yesterday, there was a tornado uh watch and flood um warnings all throughout my district. Um and in my district, I know devastating rainstorms have increased in their intensity, volume, and regularity. And I know many of my colleagues know here. I even introduced uh fix our flooded basement act uh because FEMA doesn't cover flooded basements.
▶ 1:40:17you know, it's built on, you know, the the coastal, uh, communities, but in Midwest, um, we are now seeing two years after a big flood, you know, toxic mold, um, and so much of, uh, things that you just can't imagine having in your own home. And now it's unsafe for many of my families to live there. But, you know, in the middle of the century in Metro Detroit, we used to consider, I think, what we call the quote 100red-year storms are projected to every what, 16 years.
▶ 1:40:44So any conversation about future of disaster recovery must address the need of climate resilience. They don't want to call it climate. I don't care. I just want them to acknowledge there are more floods than ever. Increasing our climate resilience can save lives and property during a disaster. It can protect our homes. It can strengthen our lo local economies and provide benefits to our communities even on perfect sunny days. In fact, investing in resilience and we know this um actually saves far more money than it cost.
▶ 1:41:12every dollar spent on federal mitigation grants, save $6 on future disaster losses. Um, Miss, uh, McGarry, uh, you know, can you share what you think our nation is doing well in terms of fostering climate resil resilience? And the second question I have is what can we do for families already? Um, you know, they survived the storm, but now their home is unlivable. Well, we're definitely taking the approach of um making sure that we build back safely.
▶ 1:41:42And so in North in western North Carolina, we've struggled with landslides. That's candidly one of the hardest um issues to fix. So we're having to move families in some cases. We're making sure we build outside of the flood planes. The challenge that we have is that Helen moved our rivers. So, um, as as hard as it is to see, we had a very big rain a few weeks ago.
▶ 1:42:05And what was beneficial about that is I think people who thought, "No, this will never happen again started to see, oh, yeah, well, it could happen again." So, we're getting less resistance from folks as we try to make sure that we mitigate and put their and there is mitigation money within CDBGR that we use for those
▶ 1:42:22And, you know, one of the things I mean, I'm trying to get as much people to support changing the FEA guidelines at least to cover basements. Um, have you heard from, you know, advocates and others that work in this area around changing some of the what what FEMA will cover in natural disasters?
▶ 1:42:39I have not spent as much time on that. Maybe others could answer that a little
▶ 1:42:43Anybody else have any indication around that? Well, um, one of the things that we also talk about is the fact that yet often we hear that these measures that we want to put forward are too costly, right? Um but Miss Kev, can you share a little bit about the financial challenge of trying to build resilience in new existing housing and who pays the cost when we forgo that resilience?
▶ 1:43:08Yeah, for you.
▶ 1:43:08I'm sorry. It's okay. I'm sorry I missed who you who you addressed it too. Um I think when you don't build it back then so one of our counties that's in the HUD most impacted and distressed areas for Helen is Haywood County. That's where I'm actually from. My parents live there and along the Pigeon River we had tropical storm Fred and now Hurricane Helen and so we have seen folks just lose their houses three years ago and now and some of them in 2001.
▶ 1:43:38So the cost is is high and now we're seeing small towns um agree to move those people and give them a way to move their houses to a different location which is really tough for people who've been in a location for a long time.
▶ 1:43:52Yeah. But it's important and I think we we must do and mitigate or otherwise we will continue to pay the price.
▶ 1:43:58Miss McGar, you actually mentioned CDBGDR um uh assistance. Could permanently authorizing CDBG DR help address administrative barriers and
▶ 1:44:10Yes, we would not have as many sets of rules. It would just be easier to work with. I think Miss Lrun from Texas mentioned they're working with 30 different sets of allocations. It just makes it easier. Is it delaying months,
▶ 1:44:24Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:44:25How many how long is it delaying not having parentally authorized?
▶ 1:44:29It is easily taking over a year to access the funds by beneficiaries after you all make the allocation.
▶ 1:44:37Yeah, that's just too long. Yeah, I hope my colleagues maybe we can work on that uh permanently authorizing CDBGR. Thank you very much. I yield. [clears throat]
▶ 1:44:48Gentle lady yields back. The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:44:53Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. The purpose of today's hearing is to examine whether the community develop development block grant disaster recovery program is effectively meeting the long-term recovery needs of disasteraffected communities and whether the program's current structures helping or hindering those efforts. Over the last three decades, Congress has appropriated more than 100 billion through CDBGDR. Yet concerns persist about delays, administrative complexity, overlapping responsibility, and oversight challenges.
▶ 1:45:23While CDBGDR is often described as a flexible tool for addressing unmet recovery needs after FEMA, SBA insurance and other assistance have been exhausted, that flexibility comes with trade-offs. Because the program lacks a standing authorization and permanent regulations, each supplemental appropriation can bring a different set of requirements, waiverss, timelines, and reporting obligations. The question before us is whether that approach is producing better outcomes for disaster victims or creating additional barriers to recovery.
▶ 1:45:54Uh Mr. Mr. Uh Jarosk, the Government Accountability Office has repeatedly identified changing program requirements and inconsistent rules across disaster supplements as a contributor to delays in getting assistance to communities. From your analysis of the program, if Congress were to authorize a permanent framework with standardized rules, which specific parts of HUD's allocation and action plan review process account for the greatest delays today?
▶ 1:46:24and uh sorry and where could Congress streamline the process to improve the speed of recovery assistance without sacrificing accountability?
▶ 1:46:32Sure. So there are two things that could happen that could potentially, you know, streamline the process. One is that the the statute would authorize HUD to establish permanent regulations in the code of federal federal regulations that would be more standardized than the current rulemaking process.
▶ 1:46:54Additionally, it would authorize a or stand up a fund within the treasury that would be essentially HUD would be able to draw down on that fund and distribute funds to grantees as soon as enough data were available to assess unmet needs.
▶ 1:47:11Thank you. Uh, one concern we often hear from states and localities is that the complexity of federal disaster programs can consume resources that would otherwise be directed toward recovery efforts on the ground, particularly for smaller jurisdictions, complying with changing federal requirements may require significant staff time and administrative capacity.
▶ 1:47:30Uh, Deputy Secretary McGara, based on your experience administering disaster recovery programs, how much of a burden do the varying requirements associated with different CDBGDR supplemental appropriations place on grantees?
▶ 1:47:45They are burdensome to have different sets of rules for each allocation.
▶ 1:47:50Thank you. As Congress evaluates potential reforms, it is equally important that taxpayer dollars are protected and that recovery funds are used for their intended purposes. HUD's Office of Inspector General has reported instances where documentation and oversight were insufficient to verify the proper use of disaster recovery funds. Uh, Miss Lrron, Texas has administered one of the largest CDBGDR portfolios in the country and has extensive experience managing disaster recovery grants.
▶ 1:48:17Based on that experience, what internal controls, monitoring systems, and accountability measures are most effective at identifying and preventing the misallocation of funds? And are there oversight reforms Congress should consider that would strengthen accountability while avoiding unnecessary delays in delivering assistance to disaster victims?
▶ 1:48:35From our perspective, disaster recovery has all sorts of hoops, environmental and procurement and duplication of benefit and so on and so forth. And being sure that every single application is reviewed for all of those criteria one by one is something that we do on a daily basis in our program. Thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony.
▶ 1:49:00As we consider the future of federal disaster recovery policy, Congress should focus on reforms that improve efficiency, reduce duplication, strengthen accountability, and ensure assistance reaches communities in need as quickly as possible. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 1:49:14Gentleman yields back. the gentleoman from Colorado, Miss Patterson is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:49:19Thank you, Chairman Flood and Ranking Member Clever. I grateful for all of you being here having this very important discussion, especially for my state in Colorado. Across the country, disasters are becoming more severe and frequent and they're more devastating. This especially hurts our mountain and wildland communities and low-income families. And there are areas in my district where insurance companies are pulling coverage entirely out of communities because of the increase in risk.
▶ 1:49:47So we have a responsibility to ensure that federal support both pre and post disaster is easily accessible and available for all of our communities. And since 1992, the community development block grant disaster recovery has been a fixture of that support. So, I feel frustrated with the discussion today uh when some are advocating for completely taking away the supplemental support while also dismantling FEMA.
▶ 1:50:14Uh coming from a state that is facing so many disasters. Recently, President Trump denied multiple requests in appeals for disaster relief to Colorado with no basis or explanation, refusing to sign a disaster declaration that would have opened up federal funding to support That means that communities in Colorado will have fewer resources and options to rebuild.
▶ 1:50:41Even now, Colorado is waiting upwards of $45 million from FEMA's hazard mitigation grant program to support disaster resiliency. So, with these funds stuck, communities are left with cascading impacts to their businesses and to individuals who are living in these communities. And at HUD, the community development block grant funding for disaster recovery can only be given to communities after qualifying for presidential disaster declaration.
▶ 1:51:10So, Miss McGary McGara, I'm curious about your perspective here since you come from a state that has been impacted by this as well. When the president delays or withholds disaster recovery funding like we're seeing right now in Colorado, how does that compound the challenges HUD faces in delivering long-term recovery support? Thank you for your question. Right now, we are delayed in being able to roll out the infrastructure component of CDBGDR.
▶ 1:51:39So we have a number of communities for which the FEMA public assistance will not fully meet their need and CDBGR allows you to build back to what you actually need and make it more resilient. And so we are still waiting on FEMA. Those delays have been extreme and we cannot there's no waiver around this. We just have to wait until those funds are administered.
▶ 1:52:01And do you think that those delays have to do with the massive firings and the withholding of funding? Could that have an impact on delays and communities actually getting their needs met?
▶ 1:52:12What we hear from our communities in western North Carolina is that they are having a lot of turnover in their FEMA staff. So, they're having to reexplain um each time they get a new case manager, they kind of start over and there's quite a bit of frustration with those delays. So, not only are we facing, you know, barriers having to rely on the president to to move forward with funding that's desperately needed, uh, we're also facing significant delays with mass firings.
▶ 1:52:42So, early last year, the Trump administration announced plans to scale back the Office of Community Planning and Development, which plays a central role in long-term disaster recovery. The proposal called for an 84% staffing cut.
▶ 1:52:56And uh for all of us who do this work, we know that government efficiency is not firing everybody who is in charge of overseeing and dispersing the funds and supporting communities when they're going through these difficult times from they reduced the staffing from 930 to about 150. Mr. how have has this reduction of this magnitude affected the timeline for getting recovery funds out to
▶ 1:53:26Sure. I don't have direct insight into this specific uh staffing changes currently. However, historically, GAO and OIG have pointed to staffing capacity as a major challenge um for HUD's ability to both get the funds out uh to the grantees as quickly as possible, but also to conduct appropriate oversight and monitoring of those funds.
▶ 1:53:51It's deeply disturbing to watch what's happening right now and seeing the impacts in my state and the people who are impacted every day. So, thank you all for being here and to the chairman for trying to address how we actually make this system work and be efficient and meet the needs of of our communities. Uh, and shame on the president uh for withholding these funds from from Colorado.
▶ 1:54:18Gentle lady yields back. The gentleman from New York, Mr. Lawler, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:54:23Thank you, chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Uh, Mr. Jerosk in the uh Hudson Valley. We live with the reality that storms don't wait for Washington to sort out its rules. Riverfront towns like Piermont and Stony Point and hamlets like Austining and Peakskill uh need to know before a major storm what recovery will look like.
▶ 1:54:48When the federal uh playbook changes after every disaster, local officials are left guessing at the moment. They need certainty. How does the lack of consistent standing recovery rules affect the predictability and overall effectiveness of long-term recovery efforts nationwide, particularly for communities that face uh repeated flooding?
▶ 1:55:13Thank you for the question. And I guess addition in addition to what Miss McGara, Miss Lrron had mentioned, um there are also challenges with the ability for grantees to ensure that there is they're mitigating against duplication of benefits risk.
▶ 1:55:32Um, with the unpredictability of funding, grantees and states and localities need to begin to plan how they are going to use their funds without potentially clear insight into whether they will receive CDBGR funds. And this could put uh individual households at risk for eventually uh unintentionally establishing a duplication of benefit.
▶ 1:56:00Mr. cave. After disasters, families aren't asking for multi-year planning exercises. They're asking for a safe roof, dry walls, and a path back home. Yet, too often, the dollars meant to stabilize households get diverted into long planning cycles that delay the very help people are counting on. What pressures tend to shift recovery funding away from urgent household level repairs and toward broader planning activities?
▶ 1:56:28and how do those pressures ultimately affect communities trying to rebuild?
▶ 1:56:34Yeah, great question and a big one. Um, if you if you think about FEMA, you know, you they they go into the community, they bring a table, and they've got a stack of debit cards, and they have a list of hurricane victims or disaster victims, and they sign and get a $2,500 benefit, which is individual assistance, which is broad-based, which might repair a roof, might go to food, etc.
▶ 1:57:02Um I think we have this designation that with CDBGDR it is waiting for us to measure unmet needs. But when you stack the temporary nature of the program, you're only adding time to that assessment when you should set it on the front end. The permanent authorization is really just a structure that then shortens that time frame. So as we think about housing, there's immediate assistance, there's transitional, and then there's permanent.
▶ 1:57:31If we can shorten that timeline by setting up a structure, much of this can be improved through rulemaking that gets money to families to serve their home needs.
▶ 1:57:41Miss Lronone, disasters don't distinguish between a dense block in Yoners and a more rural road in Putnham County, but sometimes our federal formulas do. Smaller workingclass and rural communities often face the same damage with fewer staff, fewer resources, and less capacity to navigate complex programs.
▶ 1:58:03What highlevel changes are needed to ensure that all impacted communities, including rural, workingclass, and capacity constrained areas, are treated equitably in long-term recovery programs.
▶ 1:58:16Thank you for that. Um, I think that the formula that allocates the funds in the first place needs to consider exactly that, the resources that exist in the community already for the recovery that it that needs to be covered and the number of people that would have to support that that recovery.
▶ 1:58:35Miss uh, whether it's a hurricane on the Gulf Coast or a flash flood in the Hudson Valley, the same bottlenecks keep showing up. slow approvals, complex reviews, and long waits before families see real help. These delays aren't tied to anyone storm. They're baked into the system. From your vantage point, what systemwide factors most consistently slow long-term recovery for homeowners and small communities regardless of where the disaster occurs?
▶ 1:59:03I think the initial delays in getting the funding and then some of the crosscutting measures um I think we need to re-evaluate whether they're needed in the time of disaster recovery or if there's a way we can still have the same effect without going through the full
▶ 1:59:20Yield back.
▶ 1:59:21Gentleman yields back. The gentleman from California, Mr. Licardo, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 1:59:28Thank you, Mr. Flood. I I just wanted to echo and share my concerns or the the concerns rather expressed by my colleague uh from Colorado that this debate about whether Hutter FEMA should be leading this work. I think that debate is really unproductive. Uh when we have an administration attempting to dismantle FEMA at the same time there's no one objecting to those uh decisions. Uh whether it's FEMA or HUD, uh neither agency will deliver aid effectively if they don't have employees.
▶ 1:59:56Literally, we had a secretary at DHS announce March of last year that we are going to eliminate FEMA, quote unquote. Uh, this is not a productive debate. I think I'd like to shift rather to somewhere that is more productive, which is focusing on how and where we're going to invest these scarce taxpayer dollars. The the big question is, are we going to even have those dollars?
▶ 2:00:19And Miss McGarrett, based on your experience in implementing CDBG recovery funds to deal with the devastation uh after those horrible floods from Hurricane Helen. Um uh you clearly have a recommendation in mind about CDBGDR. Uh first, should it be
▶ 2:00:41I do think it should be authorized. Yes.
▶ 2:00:43Clearly, you want to see some flexibility in the program or more flexibility. Is that fair to say?
▶ 2:00:48It is.
▶ 2:00:49And and that's because local communities uh have very different needs that we simply can't anticipate. Is that fair?
▶ 2:00:55That is also fair. Yes.
▶ 2:00:56I I certainly agree with that sentiment uh as a former mayor and appreciate it very much. Um Mr. Drosk, and forgive me please if I've mispronounced your last
▶ 2:01:08I've heard it all.
▶ 2:01:09Okay, I'll I'll try to avoid that.
▶ 2:01:11No worries. [laughter] Um, you know, we have a program CDBGR CDB CDBGR funding that can be used for disaster recovery. Uh, can it be used for mitigating disasters in the future?
▶ 2:01:28Yes. So, CDBGDR funds could be used for mitigation type activities. Um, also there's a an additional percentage under recent sub supplemental appropriations that is provided specifically for mitigation activities.
▶ 2:01:44But under the current structure in Congress, we only get those current structure of the statute that Congress has established. Those dollars are only appropriated uh if there is a disaster. Fair to say
▶ 2:01:57that's correct. So essentially, we are only offering mitigation to local communities if the disaster's already
▶ 2:02:04Yeah, there are some FEMA uh mitigation programs that are pre- disaster. I'm not as familiar with those, but I have a colleague that covers those,
▶ 2:02:13but not part of CDBG.
▶ 2:02:15And obviously CDBG has very specific purposes that communities may need
▶ 2:02:19for mitigation. Uh so this is a little bit like trying to sell the flood insurance while you're underwater. I can't comment.
▶ 2:02:28Okay. Fair to say that it's not going to mitigate the disaster if the aid is delivered after the disaster.
▶ 2:02:35Sure. I think that that argument could be made that disaster mitigation funds uh may be best served prior to the disaster and I think that is the purpose of some of the FEMA assistance that is intended for that. And is there evidence out there from studies that would establish that mitigation is a good investment of taxpayer dollars?
▶ 2:02:57I can't point to a specific study, but generally I think that's uh discussed. I
▶ 2:03:04I'll suggest a couple. I think the Chamber of Commerce and All State last year did a study that said $1 investment in disaster mitigation saves $23 in future loss economic uh output. Uh I think Noah had a study $1 invested in disaster mitigation saves about $13 in future cost. You're familiar with the general notion I assume. Is that fair? Yes. Okay.
▶ 2:03:28So I I'm uh hoping to soon introduce a bill which is now and I appreciate your assistance uh technical assistance and helping us uh fashion this bill. Uh I'm calling it the ounce of prevention act that would allow flexibility in the use of CDBG funds by states and local communities in high-risisk areas to use CDBG for disaster mitigation uh and to do so in advance of the disaster uh when it's needed. That is with standard CDBG funding.
▶ 2:03:57Um that would be a departure from the current approach which would only allow you to use CDBG funds that is that are allocated after a disaster. Is that is that fair? Yes. And part of the challenge we saw for example in the most recent allocation I think it was the last time we had CDBG MIT funding allocated was 2019. Is that right? Well yes the that specific designation.
▶ 2:04:24However um essentially Congress has moved to a different way manner in which they provide the mitigation funds. Essentially now they direct HUD to add an additional um uh set aside for mitigation purposes.
▶ 2:04:38Gentleman's time is
▶ 2:04:41Thank you. I yield.
▶ 2:04:42Gentleman yields. The gentleoman from Oregon, Miss Binham is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:04:47Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um welcome to our witnesses. I wanted to start with some discreet questions. Um yes or no if you're able to. If your home in your community burns down in a devastating wildfire, would you say that rebuilding your home is an urgent priority? Mr. Jerosk, yes or no?
▶ 2:05:13Okay, Mr. Cave.
▶ 2:05:16Miss Lronone?
▶ 2:05:18Mrs. Macara?
▶ 2:05:20Yes. And I agree with you. Whether it's wildfires like I have in my district or hurricanes and flooding in like some of my colleagues communities, I believe the American people need the support of the federal government to help them rebuild in the wake of a disaster. And I would argue they can't wait for years for that to happen. Now, it should be that the the Department of Housing and Urban Development, HUD, HUD's job is to deliver on that.
▶ 2:05:50And so I have some questions for HUD too. But um respectfully, Mr. Chair, I find it curious that um you know, we didn't really have that offered. And so I'll ask the questions anyway. Um does HUD think it's reasonable for it to take years to deliver HUD uh funding for the victims of wildfires?
▶ 2:06:13And what does HUD recommend a constituent of mine do in the meantime while they wait years for assistance to build their home? Now, unfortunately, this is a reality for thousands of families in Oregon who lost their homes during the devastating 2020 Labor Day fires, which burned over 1 million acres across the state, destroyed over 4,000 homes, and claimed 11 lives.
▶ 2:06:39The cities of Phoenix, Talent, Detroit, Idana, and Gates saw catastrophic damage. And I will argue um even my own family had to escape from the wildfires. And I recall as a tender moment in in mothering, I told the kids to pack up things that they felt were important. And the the kids packed up all of our pictures. And I told them to pack some clothes.
▶ 2:07:06And my daughter, my oldest daughter, I think she was about 17 or 18, she said, "Well, mom, I I packed some clothes, but I also packed a dress just in case we end up in the South and we have to go to church." And it was one of those moments I'll never forget because I never imagined having to escape from wildfires getting close to our home.
▶ 2:07:26So despite the sweeping destruction of those fires across Oregon, Congress didn't appropriate funding to rebuild homes in my district until September 2021, which was over a year later. And after that, HUD had to set requirements for the 422 million of recovery funds designated for my state. And then by the time they finished, the state was able to meet those burden requirements. federal funding didn't begin flowing to Oregon until February 2023.
▶ 2:07:57So 2020, And I think that's unacceptable. My constituents and all Americans impacted by disaster can't afford to wait over two and a half years before the rebuilding process even begins. And because those families who lived in Detroit and Gates didn't come back in large numbers, they couldn't sit around and just wait for the feds hoping that federal funding would come and show up. Now, I'll close with this.
▶ 2:08:28In Oregon, we have ice storms and wildfires, the strangest kinds of disasters. And the one thing I remember from the most recent storm that our family was affected by, I was on the phone with my best friend and I was looking outside and I think we had an ice storm and we have Douglas furs in our backyard and they're 100 foot trees and I remember talking to her watching the tree go down down boom and just barely missed our house by this much.
▶ 2:08:57And we called the city. The city came out within two hours told us what to do. told us we didn't need a permit, told us we could call a couple of companies in the area, and they told us to have a good day. And that was the perfect response for the city. They came when we called within just a couple of hours. They provided the resources we need and they left. And that to me is what the government should be able to do.
▶ 2:09:25come when you when when you call when when they're needed. Give the information, offer the resources, and go away. And that is what we're asking. That's all we're asking. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
▶ 2:09:41Gentle lady yields back. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, is now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 2:09:47Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the ranking member as well. Thank the witnesses for appearing today, especially the witnesses from Texas. Welcome. And I'd like to start with a brief vignette that will not be nearly as soul stirring as the one that Miss Binham gave us. It touched my heart to hear her say that the children selected photographs. Uh they wanted memories. So, thank you for that. Uh my vignette has to do with the necessity to permanently authorize CDBGDR.
▶ 2:10:16Um, I can recall when I was acquiring my first motor vehicle, um, Mr. Clever, and I wanted it to be loaded. I wanted everything. Eight four, four track was out. Eight track was in. It was a new thing. I wanted eight track, diamond in the back, sun rooftop, digging the scene, you know, the rest. Gangster lean.
▶ 2:10:44But um you know wiser persons told me that you really need transportation. Uh you can get a loaded vehicle later but now you need transportation. So we got transportation and today I'm proud to say that I have a fairly decent vehicle. No diamond in the back but it's something that I consider loaded.
▶ 2:11:06My point in making this uh point is I think that we should sort of settle down and let's decide that we will just permanently reauthorize CDBGDR and we can load it later. I I have all of the things that I would like to see in the bill and you've seen many of them. But I think that we can permanently pass it and that gets us on the road to doing many of these other things that we'd like to do. Um, I can say to you that we passed it in the House once.
▶ 2:11:36We passed it in the Senate, but we haven't passed it in the House and the Senate at the same time. Uh, which is a challenge. But I believe that if we would go to a less loaded CDBGDR and make it permanent, I think then that we can revisit a lot of the things that we would like to have in the bill. And the necessity will probably require us to look at many of these other things that we would have in the bill.
▶ 2:12:02Uh I would like to mention Miss Wagner before I finish this siloquy. Uh Miss Wagner has been outstanding. I I want to protect her intellectual property. She brought the idea to me. She and I worked together on this for some years and uh I have had the opportunity to move with it.
▶ 2:12:23But uh she really was the person that introduced me to this concept and uh she should receive an inordinate amount of credit for what she's done. So my hope today is to simply say let's establish um this bill that Mr. Chairman if we do this Mr. Chairman would uh let people know where the jurisdiction really lies.
▶ 2:12:50Uh because as you know there is this this desire to have jurisdiction in various places and it would be in one place if we permanently establish it. HUD would still be in the loop. uh we would not have to reinvent the wheel on every occasion and lose the benefit of the institutional knowledge that some persons had that have long gone and made their lives in other places. This would be a good start.
▶ 2:13:16Now, there are many things that I'd like to see in it, but I'm not going to go through those things because I think that it would spoil the argument that I'm making about making it permanent. Uh I think we can try to find the common ground that we all agree on just to make it permanent. If we can do that, I think we can move forward. And I welcome all of the ideas uh to be on the table. But let's at some point take whatever we can do together and run with that.
▶ 2:13:44Now uh I would ask um persons who would like to respond. I won't pick on anybody, but people from GLO might want to be first.
▶ 2:13:53So what what do you say to uh permanently moving forward with something that we can say it's here now let's improve it?
▶ 2:14:04Could you kindly Yes. Thank you.
▶ 2:14:05Yes sir. I agree with you that a bare bones CDBGDR program that we could then add to over time would make sense at this point.
▶ 2:14:15Okay. Now I'm reminded that the best time to plant a tree is 25 years ago. So let's not 25 years from now is what you and I seem to agree on. 25 years from now say, "God, I wish that we'd planted that tree 25 years ago because we can bicker over this at infinitum, but this is a means by which we can move forward and start the process." Who who else would like to respond? Uh uh the lady is smiling at the end. I can't see your name from here.
▶ 2:14:42Yes, sir. I agree.
▶ 2:14:44Okay. Uh the gentleman is smiling to the left of my GLO representative. Yeah, we agree. And streamlining the program is is important as well.
▶ 2:14:55Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back reluctantly.
▶ 2:14:59The gentleman yields back. I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for your testimony today.
▶ 2:15:03Without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the chair. The questions will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. Witnesses, please respond no later than July 15, 2026. With that, this hearing is adjourned.