▶ 0:19:38we give you
▶ 0:20:13order on science, space, and technology. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time. And I would like to now recognize myself uh for five minutes for an opening statement. Good morning and welcome to today's hearing on unleashing the golden age of science examining the priorities of fiscal year 2027 research and technology enterprise. And Director Katzios, welcome back.
▶ 0:20:43Glad to have you here. Last time you sat before this committee, we discussed how Congress could build on President Trump's AI action plan. the role of American innovation and the national security challenges posed by foreign competitors. Six months later, I'm glad to say that both the administration and this committee have taken meaningful action. Last year, President Trump asked you to usher in a golden age of American innovation.
▶ 0:21:12And this is the standard by which this budget should be judged. A golden age is not measured by how much government spends, but how about by but but whether taxpayer dollars are being focused on the right priorities and producing results that strengthen America's leadership in science and technology. And today's hearing is about just those priorities.
▶ 0:21:35After years in which Washington too often measured success by dollars obligated rather than by results achieved, this administration has begun to refocus the federal research enterprise on excellence, accountability, and on outcomes. I expect today's discussion will include funding levels, indirect cost policies, uniform guidance, and the president's budget request.
▶ 0:22:00Those are important discussions, but finding but funding alone is not a measurement of success. The real question is whether taxpayer dollars are being invested wisely and delivered results for the American people.
▶ 0:22:16This budget directs taxpayer dollars towards technologies that will decide the next century, artificial intelligence, quantum, advanced manufacturing, nuclear, and while ensuring that that the science this government funds meets the highest scientific standards.
▶ 0:22:34The president's executive order on restoring gold standard science reinforces that commitment by requiring federally funded research to be reproducible, transparent, and honest about Agencies will submit their first annual reports under that executive order this September, and this committee will be reading them. Scientific leadership also requires protecting the research that we fund.
▶ 0:23:01Congress has strengthened research security on a bipartisan basis and American taxpayers should never subsidize the transfer of cutting edge research to our foreign adversaries. America enters this competition from a position of strength.
▶ 0:23:18According to Stanford's AI 2026 index, private investment in American AI companies reached nearly $286 billion last year, more than 23 times China's and more than the rest of the world combined. But we should be cleareyed about this competition. The Chinese Communist Party has made artificial intelligence a national priority and is spending accordingly.
▶ 0:23:47China Chinese frontier models now trail America's by only a few points on leading benchmarks and Beijing continues targeting our universities and our national laboratories to obtain the cutting edge research that we're doing and that is exactly why this budget matters. The administration has laid out a strategy to preserve American leadership and critical technologies.
▶ 0:24:12Executive Order 14409 hardens our systems against AI enabled cyber attacks by partnering with American industry rather than regulating it into the ground. Turn this page. National Security Presidential Memorandum 11 is helping ensure that our war fighters have access to reliable and trustworthy AI capabilities.
▶ 0:24:40And while the Genesis mission is leveraging our national laboratories and supercomputing infrastructure to accelerate scientific discovery, this committee has done its part. Across several markups this Congress, we have reported out the National Quantum Initiative Reauthorization Act, the Noah Weather Radio Modernization Act, the NASA Reauthorization Act, and Weather Act Reauthorization Act, and other bipartisan measures to strengthen American
▶ 0:25:11Science and Technology Enterprise. Just last month, we also approved 10 bipartisan AI bills, including my AI Ready Federal Data Guidelines Act, which implements a recommendation in the AI action plan to make scientific data AI ready.
▶ 0:25:29We also approved the AI security and innovation act authorizing the center for AI standards and innovation at NIST to bolster AI evaluation capabilities essential to both our national security and to American leadership. Director Katzios, we look very much forward to hearing about how this budget advances the administration's priorities, strengthens OSTP, NSF and NIST and implements these gold standard signs.
▶ 0:25:58uh uh qualities and protects the federal research enterprise and ensures the na that the United States remains the world's leaders leader in science and technology. I very much appreciate you being here today and I welcome your testimony and with that I yield back the balance of my time and I would like to now recognize the ranking members opening statement the gentleoman from
▶ 0:26:22Uh thank you Mr. Chairman and good morning Mr. Katzios. The topic of this hearing is unleashing the golden age of science. I think that title is stunningly ironic as this administration has been systematically destroying the US science enterprise while our allies and adversaries alike look on astonished. So let me propose an alternative tile. Unleashing the golden age of science in the People's Republic of China.
▶ 0:26:52Because this administration's actions have only served to strengthen the hand of China while decimating the US research enterprise. As reported earlier this month by the Association of American Universities, major research universities across the nation accepted 15% fewer applicants to PhD programs for fall 2026 compared to fall 2025.
▶ 0:27:19This is on top of decreases recorded in fall 2025 admissions. These decreases were not just in fields disfavored by this administration. They were across the board in STEM fields. Now, international students have long been a lynchpin of US leadership in science and technology. So, none of us should be celebrating their 17% reduction in PhD admissions at US universities.
▶ 0:27:46However, even more shocking given administration rhetoric is the fact that PhD admissions for US students also dropped by 13%. So much for America first. We are harming the seed corn for the future of US science and technology. Meanwhile, China is not only doubling down on their scientific investments, they're also actively recruiting researchers away from the United States.
▶ 0:28:14Big new initiatives and promises mean nothing when agencies act capricciously. Cancelling grants midway, delaying awards for months even after they've been selected through the rigorous merit review process, and blacklisting educational and research institutions. And if anyone has any doubt as to intent, just look at the proposed OM rule effectively codifying all of these regrettable practices. Mr.
▶ 0:28:43Krazios, you are the face of the administration, science, and technology agenda. You appear to have a direct role in some of these uh events, uh but you're accountable for the entirety of it. And I'll focus on just a couple of problematic actions. First, you may claim to be a free market conservative, but um the administration uh is acts like a bunch of communists.
▶ 0:29:10Actually, communism uh means that the government owns the means of production. The administration is bullying American companies into handing over equity stakes in exchange for federal funding so that the federal government owns the means of production. It's unprecedented.
▶ 0:29:31There's zero zero transparency to the public or even to Congress on how uh it's intended to dispose of these shares or what the timeline is, where the profits will go. We're left to our own imagination. Given the widespread corruption of the last 18 months, what I imagine is this administration once again disadvantaging American taxpayers for the benefit of the president's allies.
▶ 0:29:59Next, I want to focus on the National Science Foundation, the crown jewel of our government's support for discovery science across all fields of science and engineering. The president requested a $3 billion cut to NSF for both FY25 and 26. Congress said heck no and funded the agency close to FY24 levels. Yet, the money is not getting out the door.
▶ 0:30:26There are now multiple credible reports of the administration so-called taxing up to 30% of funds for each of NSF's research directorates to apparently create some kind of slush fund for administration priorities. I want to be clear this would be in direct contra uhvention of the funding law that Congress passed in January and would be illegal. Now Mr. Cretios you have a background in venture capital and I come from Silicon Valley myself.
▶ 0:30:54I have a deep appreciation for the ways in which VC has accelerated innovation. But government is not venture capital. There is no Silicon Valley without fundamental research. The kind of government, the kind government funds, the kind that wins Nobel prizes. It's a dangerous game to play and one that is already hollowing out our fundamental research base and our talent pipeline.
▶ 0:31:19From the targeting of major universities to the suppression of inconvenient federal science to the slandering of diversity in our research enterprise, all of it has helped throw American science into crisis. So, [clears throat] director, I hope you're prepared to give serious answers to serious questions about these actions uh and by uh the administration and under OSTP specifically under your watch. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 0:31:50gentle woman yields back if I can find my place. All right. Now, let me introduce our witness. Our witness today is the Honorable Michael Katzios, director of the Office of Science, Technology Policy. And in addition to his current position, Mr.
▶ 0:32:09Pratzio served as the acting under secretary of defense for research and engineering and received the Department of Defense Distinguished Public Service Medal, the highest civilian award conferred by the Department of Defense. Congratulations. And with that, I now recognize Mr. Kratz for five minutes to present his testimony.
▶ 0:32:30Thank you, Chairman Babin and Rank Ranking Member Lofrren for inviting me to speak to you today about the nation science and technology enterprise and this administration's priorities. In this 250th year of American innovation, we have been given the perfect opportunity to renew the material foundations of America's independence, security, and prosperity.
▶ 0:32:53Our economic leadership and technological dominance cannot be taken for granted in a rapidly changing world where the United States no longer stands alone as an industrial and scientific superpower. Unleashing a golden age of American science requires new focus and 81 years ago, President Franklin Roosevelt science adviser Vanderver Bush published a report entitled Science: The Endless Frontier, which organized America's national scientific enterprise for peace time following the Second World War.
▶ 0:33:24Bush's vision established the federal government's role in supporting basic science and was foundational to the broad-based prosperity of the 20th century. But times and technologies have changed. Our moment calls for renewal of Bush's original intentions to use the best tools, organizational theories, and systems thinking at our disposal to ensure that taxpayerup supported science produces the largest returns possible for the benefit of all Americans.
▶ 0:33:52In a new report to President Trump published just yesterday entitled Science: The New Golden Age, I articulate the obstacles American researchers face today and the ways our scientific enterprise has fundamentally transformed since 1945. The report and a corresponding memorandum provide policy guidance for federal agencies to cement American scientific leadership for generations to come.
▶ 0:34:15I look forward to sharing these bipartisan and nonpartisan recommendations with the committee today and finding opportunities to codify them in Congress. First, the US research eos research system should prioritize individual scientists over legacy institutions. Too much of our research enterprise has come to serve itself rather than the scientists within it. By supporting a broader range of performers, including a new generation of missiondriven research organizations, we expand our scientific horizons.
▶ 0:34:45Second, the federal government should reform and refocus how research dollars are allocated, distributed, and assessed. Instead of one-sizefits-all approach, the government can deploy more flexible types of grants, including fasttrack grants, long horizon grants, a new mechanism that allow reviewers to champion radically unconventional proposals. Third, the federal government should set clear scientific goals and build the industrial muscle to translate scientific discovery into technological strength.
▶ 0:35:11Government must mobilize the full force of our enterprise around national challenges, clear the ground for American builders, and reunite the work of discovery and manufacturing across the country. Fourth, the federal government must lead the way in preparing America's research enterprise to fully harness the artificial intelligence revolution. A year ago tomorrow, President Trump published America's AI action plan, laying out a blueprint for America's dominance and technology that increasingly defines our era.
▶ 0:35:41A main motivation in promoting American AI development is a belief that these tools can rapidly accelerate the progress of our scientific enterprise and so open new frontiers for American knowledge, industry, and quality of life. The Genesis mission is the crown jewel of American AI for science and already well underway.
▶ 0:36:00Just this morning in a convening of science teams across the federal branch, the executive branch, my office affirmed that the Genesis mission will be the central hub for the entire federal government to revolutionize the conduct of American science with AI. Joining DOE's ongoing efforts are initiatives from NSF, DOW, HHS, NASA, USDA, NIST, DHS, and DOT, mobilizing more than$5 billion dollars in total commitments to producing the premier AI for science ecosystem in the world.
▶ 0:36:30More than a whole of government project, we hope the Genesis mission will grow into a whole of nation effort driving the partnership of government, academia, and industry. The Genesis mission's grand challenges seek to directly address some of the hardest problems in research priority areas. Moreover, the pursuit of these grand challenges will inspire and test new AI methods and architectures and so advance the capabilities of American AI itself.
▶ 0:36:55Throughout our history, Americans have shown remarkable courage in our willingness to reinvent our institutions when the challenges we faced demanded it. Now, it is our time to build a scientific enterprise that will carry America forward and create a new golden age of science for the 21st century and beyond. I thank the chairman, ranking member for hosting today's hearing, and I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.
▶ 0:37:21Thank you. Thank you very much. Now I'll move into the questions and the uh chair recognizes himself for five minutes. Director Katzios, as I mentioned in my opening statement last year, the president charged you with ushering in a golden age of American innovation. And this budget outlines your plan for how NSF, NIST, NOSTP will help achieve that goal.
▶ 0:37:45In plain terms, what does this budget deliver for the American people that the last administration's budget did not? Thank you so much for that question. I'm very excited to look forward to uh implementing the budget and also the new golden age report that was published just yesterday. We have a real unique and special opportunity today to be able to rethink and reimagine the way that our science ecosystem functions and be able to overcome some of the many challenges that we've had over the years.
▶ 0:38:14It is true, I believe, that there has been actual scientific and technological stagnation over the past few decades. And that's because our scientific ecosystem has calcified. We've essentially been trying to do the same thing and fund science initiatives in the same way for so many years. And right now, because of AI and so many other opportunities, we have a chance and an opportunity to rethink the way that the government does science to be able to first and most importantly back young American scientists.
▶ 0:38:43Everything that we should we do as a science ecosystem driven by the government should focus on scientists themselves and we have lots of different programs and initiatives that are going to be doing that but we somehow have lost our way and those are the most important people in ecosystem we should support.
▶ 0:38:57Absolutely. Thank you. Uh [clears throat] the committee continues to have serious concerns about the integrity and objectivity of the nationalmies of science engineering and medicine or NASA and its work on attribution science despite repeated oversight requests. NASA has failed to fully comply with the committee's request for information prompting a follow-up oversight letter.
▶ 0:39:21And as we work toward a golden age of science, maintaining public trust in the nation's scientific institutions is as important as ever. Given the transparency concerns, do you believe Congress should reconsider NASA's exemption uh from the Federal Advisory Committee Act uh so as that its advisory committees are subject to the same transparency, balance, and conflict of interest standards as other federal uh advisory bodies? And will you commit to working with the committee in this process?
▶ 0:39:49I very much look forward to working with the committee generally on this topic. Um I think it's important that any of our institutions that um conduct science or work on science policy, our um are transparent and honest with American people and I look forward to working with you on this particular issue.
▶ 0:40:05Absolutely. Uh the administration recently proposed accountability measures for federally funded grants and the National Science Foundation's merit review process relies on external reviewers many of whom are from academia. This chart shows the faculty ideology from 1969 to 2022.
▶ 0:40:28If you would observe this, um, under the previous administration, we saw a significant increase in the politization of science big time. Federal grants were used to advance DEI initiatives that violated direct violations of the Civil Rights Act, promote the so-called quote environmental justice agenda, and direct taxpayer dollars towards politically aligned organizations.
▶ 0:40:57How would the proposed revisions to the uniform guidance help restore accountability to the American people and elected officials instead of deferring to a political ideology or an unelected bureaucracy as you can see from this chart that has occurred from 1969 to the present. I think the the most important thing that I think about of the of the era before President Trump was reelected was um I truly believe it was a black eye for the larger scientific ecosystem.
▶ 0:41:27Um the fact that so many taxpayer dollars were diverted to to to projects we clearly did not meet uh the mark for where we as an ecosystem should be funding. Um I think made a lot of people question whether or not um the government was doing the right thing and whether it was funding projects that actually push science forward. Um, so I commend President Trump for taking a strong stand on this when we first came into office to make sure that this type of funding stopped and we returned to gold standard science ones where we can actually fund the most important scientific endeavors of the nation today.
▶ 0:41:56Um, and we have continued to try to promulgate rules which will allow that to to to continue into the future.
▶ 0:42:02Absolutely. You can see that from 69 to the to the present, we should have a middle of the road u probably an average of these of these personnel and it's way way down middle of the road. So, let me ask you one final question. For decades, the Congress has routinely authorized science programs at funding levels that far exceed what will ever be appropriated.
▶ 0:42:27And although these bills often pursue worthwhile goals, they also create unfunded expectations that can dilute agency focus, complicate long-term planning, and strain limited resources. From the America Competes Act to the Chips and Science Act, we've seen this pattern repeated over and over. Uh how does this gap between authorized and appropriated funding affect the long-term health of our science enterprise? And what can Congress do to better align our policy ambitions with fiscal reality?
▶ 0:42:57Yeah, I I I will say I think um obviously these type budgetary decisions are appropriation decisions are made by made by Congress. But I will say in the executive branch having more and definitive clarity around what will be funded and at what time periods I think will allow for much better planning. As this committee knows very well, there are many initiatives that are multi-year in the making. Uh and the more clarity we can have for those, the better.
▶ 0:43:19Absolutely. My time's expired. So, I yield back and I now recognize ranking member Lofram for five minutes to ask her questions.
▶ 0:43:27Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we need to get a few things on the record here today. The National Science Foundation has been without a Senate confirmed director for over a year, but I think we do have evidence uh that political appointees may be finding a way to interfere despite that fact. Now, I have a something I want to put up on the screen. um the staff can make that happen.
▶ 0:43:53Uh on the screen is a slide that the science committee uh democratic staff got um just last week on the AY's program information management system. Now, it may be a little bit hard to read because this was a screenshot taken by uh someone who was at the meeting, but it's helpfully colored in uh bright red.
▶ 0:44:16in a a step that reads coordination with Doge and White House taking place outside the workflow. So, we've been hearing rumors for months. Uh, and this seems to confirm it that the White House is directly interfering with the operations of the National Science Foundation. Um I'm wondering does the White House have involvement similar to this in which NSF proposals receive funding?
▶ 0:44:49Uh the the White House is not involved in which which proposals get get funding at National Science Foundation. I will say and I think this committee knows very well the role of OSTP um and the way it's created in statute is to have an opportunity to work with all of our science agencies to ensure that the president's priorities for science and technology are manifested in the budgets themselves and the way that these these operate operate.
▶ 0:45:12Uh there have been reports in uh the Science magazine and in Nature that I'd ask unanimous consent to put into the record that indicate that uh NSF has held up nearly a billion dollars in money that Congress appropriated to the agency. Um and we've had indications of uh very large discrepancies between the fiscal year 2026 spend plan for NSF and the actual allocations that have been made to directorates.
▶ 0:45:41the public re reporting and actually the rumors indicate that this uh is a portion of the $ 1.5 billion dollar total that will essentially be expropriated from NSF and allocated to I think kind of a secretive initiative led by OSTP. I you know the current system of granting is not perfect.
▶ 0:46:06I'm not going to say that changes aren't required, but you can make extreme changes that will do damage uh to our science enterprise. So, I'd like to know kind of what is going on, Where is the nearly $1 billion that we know is being clawed back from NSF directors uh directors and uh what is the reported $1.5 billion project to quote Nature's reporting uh is a brainchild of the White House OSTB
▶ 0:46:36and if you could be specific is any of the five billion that you announced today for Project Genesis coming from the money appropriated uh to NSF
▶ 0:46:47I'm not familiar with those details. I would refer you to NSF. But uh but I will say something that that we we we have argued from from the White House for a long time and has been been manifested in the or written up in the golden age report that was released yesterday was that as a nation we should be more deliberative and specific about trying to tackle grand challenges.
▶ 0:47:07We as a country have shied away for many years from actually being opinionated about what are the most important scientific and technological endeavors that um our American people deserve a government to be funding. Um and in that report and in the in the budget guidance uh R&D memo that we we produced as well yesterday, I think we list out some of those. Um and the Genesis mission is is one of them. Um and and so is creating a scientifically relevant uh quantum computer that was part of an executive order the president signed.
▶ 0:47:34And I think we as a nation should strive to have these largecale scientific endeavors that only the government can help marshall the full res resources of the nation together to accomplish.
▶ 0:47:44I don't think the committee disagrees on some of the major um initiatives that are important to the country. We just um uh adopted the quantum initiative. We have bipartisan support for uh research into fusion. Um but the concern we have is the process by which uh scientific enterprise is taken.
▶ 0:48:07Obviously science does not happen without scientists but scientists cannot operate uh in a vacuum if they don't have access to labs. If universities are no longer admitting uh doctoral students because they can't figure out a way to pay for their research. There has been tremendous damage that has already been done to the science enterprises of the country.
▶ 0:48:30We know personally of Nobel level scientists who are leaving the United States and going to China because their research can be funded. So I have grave concerns and uh I know that other members of the committee will have an opportunity to follow up. Um with that I yield back. Mr. Chairman,
▶ 0:48:48gentleoman yields back. I'd [clears throat] like to recognize a gentleman from Florida, Mr. Webster for five minutes.
▶ 0:48:55Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr. uh the administration has emphasized American space leadership as part of a golden age of American innovation. Uh include included in that is Artemis leadership, commercial space uh and cooperation with allies and partners.
▶ 0:49:18How is uh OSTP alongside with NASA aligning the commercial space sector and international space science technology partnerships so the United States leads in space and while providing sensitive technologies and strengthening norms for that favor American leadership.
▶ 0:49:44Thank you so much Congressman. The president signed an executive order around space superiority in in December of last year and that actually set the the national vision for for our country in space and I think it set out some some bold goals that this committee is very very familiar with to have American boots on the ground on the moon in 28 to have the the the the first um components of a moon base by 2030 um and to launch in this administration uh a a essentially a nuclear reactor into
▶ 0:50:14space for nuclear propulsion. So these are bold, ambitious goals that um we at the White House are helping coordinate, some of which um require multiple agencies to work together, particularly some of the nuclear initiatives. Um and we have an amazing administrator at NASA uh who's doing a great job in in helping achieve the president's vision.
▶ 0:50:33So, executive order uh uh basically ensuring American space calls for new and upgraded facilities um to support increased launch and re-entrance cadence.
▶ 0:50:53If the administration could use a privately funded federal infrastructure finance corporation at no cost to federal, state, or local taxpayers to supplement existing tools for spaceport cons infrastructure. Would this new financing approach help OSTP uh carry out the executive order which calls for new and upgraded facilities?
▶ 0:51:20I'd have to um think or learn a little bit more about that particular model, but I think um the the overarching view is that we need to find the best possible solutions to be able to upgrade our launch infrastructure. I think again as this committee knows really well the the the cadence of of launches that um that is happening now um is increasing dramatically and our ability to have the facilities to allow um our space economy to achieve its ultimate potential is is going to require new new facilities.
▶ 0:51:52Uh Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to include in the record a copy of my bipartisan Federal Infrastructure Finance Corporation legislation and a one-pager describing it.
▶ 0:52:04Without objection.
▶ 0:52:10So, radio isotope power systems will be vital to uh power US lunar infrastructure. What steps will the administration take to prioritize US companies building this technology, leveraging existing nuclear fuel across the DOE complex and provide the procurement support needed to make US industry competitive globally?
▶ 0:52:38Um, I I defer to my colleagues at at DOE and NASA on that, but I I promise you I can I can look into that and we can find ways to to to progress it forward. I think the key thing is that the president, at least from the White House level, has set the goal that we're going to have SR1 up by by 28. Um, in order to make that a reality, I think a lot of other pieces have to come together and and that very well may be one of them.
▶ 0:53:00Well, my time is out. Uh, would like to yield any time you'd like to about a minute to explain any other thing you'd like to explain.
▶ 0:53:10Thank you so much. I talked about this a little bit in my opening statement, but I I cannot reiterate enough how excited I am about the future of a science and technology enterprise in the United States. We have one of the greatest opportunities in human history to accelerate the pace of scientific discovery today. Artificial intelligence is probably the biggest unlock in human history in our ability to drive scientific discovery.
▶ 0:53:36um what we're able to do through the Genesis mission and through extending um AI for sciencepowered initiatives across all of our federal agencies. I think we'll be able to look back on that in years ahead and think that this was a moment where we actually, you know, really really accelerated the pace of discovery in a way that that no one that no one thought
▶ 0:53:57You back.
▶ 0:53:58Absolutely. Gentleman yields back. Thank you very much. And now I'd like to recognize a gentle lady from Oregon, Miss Bonamichi.
▶ 0:54:04Thank you, Dr. Cra. Excuse me, Director Katzio, thank you for being here. The administration's 2027 research priorities memo promises a golden age of science built on strengthening the US Science Ecosystem and gold standard science grounded in merit-based peerre. Yet, in just the past three months, the president fired the entire National Science Board. OM proposed a rule to defer research funding to the whims of political appointees instead of experts.
▶ 0:54:29And now the administration is moving funds Congress appropriated to NSF and other science agencies without congressional authorization to Genesis which was created without congressional authorization and I think you mentioned about 5 billion dollars that is significant. Uh America's science enterprise has led the world for decades because of our commitment to open research to investing in discovery when the outcomes are unknown to rigorous merit-based innovation and to our US research universities.
▶ 0:54:58Today that enterprise is blinded by firing experts, deafened by legal threats and choked by political hostage taking. So director Katzios past Sunday the president who is not a scientist ordered federal suspension and debarment officials to investigate the nationalmies because of a peer-reviewed report he apparently didn't like. Executive order 14303 requires federally funded science to undergo unbiased peer review.
▶ 0:55:25This national academyy's attribution science report did go through years of peer review. So did OSTP review that report or advise the president before he issued that order? That's just a yes or no
▶ 0:55:38Has OSTP identified a specific factual error in the report's peer-reviewed findings? Yes or no?
▶ 0:55:45I haven't been involved in the National Academyy's report. Uh the National Science Board, which is required by law to advise the president in Congress on science policy, has been vacant for nearly three months because the president dismissed all 22 members. Did the board hold its statutoily required annual meeting in May of this year?
▶ 0:56:05So the the National Science Board has statuto authority to establish the policies of the National Science Foundation and and delegate award authority. Now adding to this and I think you are Mr. committees very well. The challenge is a recent Supreme Court cases have upheld that only principal officers of the executive branch can make certain
▶ 0:56:25I'm going to reclaim my time because my question was did
▶ 0:56:27defer you to the National Science
▶ 0:56:30Has the president nominated a single replacement member since April? Yes or
▶ 0:56:35Not in my not that I'm aware of. No.
▶ 0:56:38So in May, OM proposed a seismic overhaul of the federal grant system. It requires it award reviews by it requires award reviews by political appointees. It allows agencies to subjectively terminate grants and it bars funding that supposedly promotes topic the pres topics the president doesn't like in favor of those that advance his policy priorities. Did OSTP consult with OM in developing this proposed rule?
▶ 0:57:06as this rulem is progressing the you know our office is working closely with OM and OIR to ensure that all of federal research enterprise remains worldclass and is trustworthy and accountable
▶ 0:57:17and did any agencies under OSTP's per purview begin implementing provisions of the rule before the comment period
▶ 0:57:25I can't speak to other agency actions I don't know
▶ 0:57:28you're not aware of any that have u you you know you're you're talking about unleashing American science but you're standing idly by as researchers stop publishing their results out of fear. Political agendas dictate winners and losers and science agencies are bleeding staff, many of whom, as ranking member Lafkan noted, are being recruited by other countries who are aggressively courting our scientists. That's not scientific leadership.
▶ 0:57:52I also wanted to ask you about this um apparently new uh process set up to bypass review panels to earn a so-called fasttrack golden ticket. It's Willy Wonka like to me and this is a serious issue. Uh so who's going to get these FastTrack golden tickets? Um supporters of Donald Trump, people who pay for them, what's the
▶ 0:58:12So we we're very excited about um different methods of awarding grants. What we have seen over the past few decades is um a real decline in the types of grants that want to achieve sort of groundbreaking or out of the box type of ideas because these merit review panels tend to um gravitate towards least common denominator awards. And what's amazing about the golden ticket process or initiative is that it does two things.
▶ 0:58:38One, it encourages scientists to be able to actually propose more interesting, more groundbreaking, more envelope pushing ideas because they have an opportunity actually for them to be awarded. And second, I think most importantly, it actually encourages better and more qualified people to want to be part of these merit review panels.
▶ 0:58:56My time's about to expire. So, will you commit that those reviews will be done based on merit, not based on the supporters? There's a lot of corruption in this administration not based on who is giving money to the president and who are the friends and supporters of the president. They will be re meritbased grants to get a golden ticket. Will you commit to that?
▶ 0:59:14That is how NSF does grant making. It's a merit-based process.
▶ 0:59:18Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 0:59:22Thank you. Uh now I'd like to recognize gentleman from California, Mr.
▶ 0:59:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Director Katzios, thank you for being here today. It's uh good to see you again. As the chairman mentioned in his opening statement several weeks ago, this committee marked up 10 different bills on the topic of AI regulation. And I'm very proud that this committee is leading on that issue.
▶ 0:59:46Amongst those bills was a bill of mine to codify the Center for AI Security and Innovation or NAR or uh I'm sorry Casey and task Casey with many roles including improving and evaluating the security and reliability of advanced AI systems. And as we've seen with yesterday's disclosure of the loss of control at Open AI and the subsequent hacking of Hugging Face, that just underscores the urgency of Casey's mission.
▶ 1:00:15One of the items of disagreement in within the committee was the level of resource to give to Casey. And uh part of the uh controversy was that uh there are elements of Casey's job that fall in the jurisdiction of other policy committees here in the House.
▶ 1:00:34And so, uh, as we work through the process and and, uh, with all of the different policy committees and crafting a federal regulatory framework for AI, it's really not clear until we get done with that what the overall responsibilities of Casey will be. So, let me ask you, based on the responsibilities that we've given Casey so far, is Casey adequately resourced to execute on its mission?
▶ 1:00:56I think Casey could certainly benefit from more resources. It is um you know to begin with forget even this particular topic of of of AI it's very hard to recruit people to work in government layering on the fact that for the particular type of experts that you need to to do the testing evaluation of these models these folks are could could work in the private sector and and make orders of magnitude more more in compensation.
▶ 1:01:20So I think what's important for us is to is to be able to create an organization that can recruit high talented people to come for tours of duty and to be able to do the important work of the testing evaluation of these of these models and and that does require resources.
▶ 1:01:34Right. Well, we that remains an item of discussion here. I think the legislation that we passed which was my bill uh resourced Casey at $25 million a year. Uh I believe that the the amount of resource truly needed when the dust settles here will be closer to hundred million dollars a year. But uh we look forward to partnering with you to figure out what the amount right the amount of resources to enable Casey to execute on its important mission.
▶ 1:01:58One of the other things that we did two weeks ago when we marked up legislation is to codify NAR the national AI research resource uh which is going to be a critical piece of making sure that we democratize access to advanced AI research and allow it to be done uh outside of the setting only in private companies behind closed doors and to allow it to remain to be done in settings like academia and by entrepreneurs.
▶ 1:02:23Um what steps is OSTP taking to ensure that access to resources for AI research and development are democratized and broadly
▶ 1:02:34Yeah, so we we've encouraged NSF to continue to pursue and build out the pilot that they did for for the NAIR. Um one of the core tenants of science new golden age is again reorganizing the scientific enterprise to support the individual scientist.
▶ 1:02:48And what we have seen as this AI revolutionist has taken over is that um the resources that you need in order to do cutting edge AI resource um research um are um are not trivial to acquire and and having pulled resources which the government can help with private sector to to create opportunities for scientists to tap into is really really important and increasingly even more important. So we continue to encourage that and try to find programs both at NSF and and at DOE to make that happen.
▶ 1:03:15Right. So, uh, you and I have had several discussions about the Genesis mission. I'm I find that tremendously exciting. Uh, and I think I I agree with you that it's going to catalyze, uh, a new era of discovery by partnering, uh, advanced research with artificial intelligence to push forward the boundary of human knowledge. Uh, the Genesis mission executive order identified a few priorities for the Genesis mission. Among them were AI and quantum computing.
▶ 1:03:42uh but also among them were uh fusion energy uh which I think you and I share a passion for as chairman of the fusion energy caucus. That's something that we have been very focused on. Uh however, the administration's fiscal year 27 budget included a request for a billion dollars for AI and quantum but no corresponding investment to accelerate commercial fusion deployment. Mhm.
▶ 1:04:07So can you elaborate on what the administration's current federal strategy is on fusion?
▶ 1:04:12Yeah. So you may have seen recently the department of energy released their fusion science and technology roadmap. Um and in the the fiscal year 28 research and development priorities memo that um me and and and uh and director vote released yesterday. Um we talk about uh the importance of national science and technology missions.
▶ 1:04:33um and we list out um four of them and one of them is fusion and our hope is that through the budget process we can establish a way that we can demonstrate commercial fusion power in the US by by the mid 2030s in line with the road map that DOE put out.
▶ 1:04:47Okay. Well, I mean it's going to require partnership between Congress and the administration to get that funded and commercialization is an important part of that of that strategy. So I see my time's expired. I uh I could I could ask a dozen questions but I thank you for your presence. recognize the uh gentleoman from North Carolina, Miss
▶ 1:05:06Thank you so much, Chairman Babin and Ranking Member Lofgrren, for convening this very important hearing. Um, I represent part of the research triangle, so there's nothing more important to my district than the scientific enterprise. Um, I want to discuss the so-called gold standard science this administration is priorit prioritizing. Everything's gold in this administration. There's just something odd about that.
▶ 1:05:36On May 23rd, 2025, President Trump issued Executive Order 14303 entitled Restoring Gold Standard Science. Not silver, not bronze, not red, blue. The executive order directed your office to issue guidance for federal agencies on the implementation of, and I quote, gold standard science. It also directed agencies to submit their implementation plans to your office.
▶ 1:06:05And [snorts] now a year later, OM has proposed a broad policy that would completely upend federal grant funding which will further devastate the scientific community and be subject to the whims of political leadership. And we have seen this in North Carolina in devastating ways to both the scientific enterprise and to our economy. So as I said, I am proud to represent the research triangle.
▶ 1:06:32It's a major center for science and technology, home to some of the world's top research universities and institutions. And the Trump administration has severely disrupted our research and technology sector by restructuring critical agencies, firing experienced scientists, and cutting research funding. All in the haphazard pursuit of gold standard science.
▶ 1:06:58and all to the benefit of our competitors, specifically China and specifically in the area of biotechnology. Sadly, what we've been hearing this morning has been confirming what we know.
▶ 1:07:15Gold standard is frequently And the victories that you're touting are merely cheap, shiny distractions concealing the nation's crumbling scientific infrastructure and the loss of the intellectual capability that we have to China, to Europe, to anybody who can fund their research.
▶ 1:07:41And scientific integrity is being violated every day across government. So, I have a few questions for you um in my two minutes left. Um the gold standard science guidelines say, quote, "Unbiased peerreview is critical for generating trustworthy new knowledge that minimizes bias." Yet a month after OSTP released its guidance, the so-called climate working group at
▶ 1:08:11the Department of Energy published a 151page report that was written by five handpicked climate deniers. This report underwent no independent peer review and was immediately debunked by the scientific community, but DOE has refused to retract the report and continues to stand by it.
▶ 1:08:33Have you evaluated the publication process that the climate working group followed and would will you instruct DOE to retract the report as a violation of the gold standard science peerreview
▶ 1:08:48Um I have not and I and I trust Secretary Wright in in his judgment and putting together that panel and and producing a a report that was uh that was quite important. Well, Secretary Wright was here and let me tell you, didn't do a good job. The OSTP's gold standard science guide guidance is also supposed to uphold scientific integrity throughout the federal government.
▶ 1:09:12At the same time, OM is working to finalize a policy that will explicitly empower political appointees to overrule merit-based scientific decisions. It's a travesty and it's simply incompatible with any kind of commitment to robust scientific research.
▶ 1:09:33Director, how on earth can you claim to support gold standard science while the White House enacts a policy that will make a mockery of it? I believe that you actually are a serious scientist. I you have great credentials. You have But this isn't being implemented in the way that you are saying it should be.
▶ 1:10:01Uh thank you so much. I mean I I I look forward to working closely with with OM to ensure that uh that our enterprise continues to remain world class and trustworthy and accountable.
▶ 1:10:15Gentleoman yields. I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr.
▶ 1:10:20Thank you, Mr. chairman and thank you uh Mr. Casios for being here with us today. I I want to touch on gold standard science as well. Interesting segue. Um as as we all know the the executive order would call for gold standard science that prioritizes transparency, rigorous scientific work. It's reproducibility of the science that's done. U impartial federal science, clear communication of uncertainty, uh that we don't cherrypick certain results and and disc disregard others.
▶ 1:10:49that there are appropriate uh disclosure conflicts of interest. We could spend an entire hearing on examples over the last the previous couple of administrations where that has not been taking place and we can argue that on both sides of the aisle. I would hope that in this what's typically a bipart very bipartisan committee. We would all agree the needs for the things that are spelled out in the executive order. But could you could you comment a little for us?
▶ 1:11:12Uh how is OSTP ensuring that scientific advisory processes and agency research products earn more public confidence and provide reliable evidence for policy makers?
▶ 1:11:22Thank thank you for that question. I think we were very excited and very proud um when the president signed the gold standard science executive order. Um I think it was an important moment um to kind of turn the page on on some of the errors and the and the challenges that that were faced in the previous administration. Um, what the American people deserve and what the scientific community deserves is to have trust in the science that is produced and funded by the federal government.
▶ 1:11:46The core tenants in that executive order are ones that any scientist anywhere in the world um cannot disagree with. That is just the way that you should be pursuing science. Things should be reproducible. Things should be transparent. They should be impartial. Um, you should communicate uncertainty clearly. Um, and these are things that everyone agrees with.
▶ 1:12:04So, um, uh, to to us, I think we're excited to get that out and I think it's something our agencies have taken to heart and they've, um, each produced a set of, uh, implementation memos on how they're going going forward to make sure that that is actually executed in when they do science. So, I'm very excited about about the path ahead and I think this is what the scientific community demands and should demand of the of the US government.
▶ 1:12:24Well, I appreciate that. And when we return from our August recess, I I'll be introducing legislation to codify that. I would hope that that would receive bipartisan support because we all both sides of the aisle should be seriously about pursuing uh integrity in our
▶ 1:12:37Well, if you need anyone to cheerlead it, I'm happy to uh make the rounds.
▶ 1:12:40Roger that. Switching gears to AI. This week marks a year since the White House released the America's AI action plan with more than 90 policy actions across innovation, infrastructure, and international leadership. One year into this, how do you what do you see are the clearest signs that the plan is producing results? I think the clear signs are we continue to lead the world in in next generation AI frontier models. Um it's something that um that that I think we're proud of as a country.
▶ 1:13:05I think we had this this uh mythos moment if you can imagine that we're all very familiar with a few um a few months ago and I think there's lots of ways to think about it but one view on it or easy way to think about it is that you know that was an American model made by an American company in America and that shows that we continue to be sort of the on on on the bleeding edge. Um, another big effort that I think we're very proud of is how we're continuing to accelerate the infrastructure buildout um, necessary for us to succeed in in in this AI world.
▶ 1:13:33Um, the president [snorts] was very forwardleaning in um, in bringing together all of the AI companies and hyperscalers and getting them to agree to what is known as the rateayer protection pledge. And the president asked to them and they signed on to this pledge where they uh, are committing to build, bring or buy all their own power for next generation and and and new data centers. Why that's so important is we have to have the confidence of the American people when we build out all this infrastructure.
▶ 1:13:59And I think this pledge makes it clear to everyone that when a new data center is built, rates are not going to go up. Um and these are the types of actions the president takes I think which um which really instill the confidence necessary to keep to keep leading ahead.
▶ 1:14:10Okay. So those those being positive uh actions so far, where do you see implementation needing to move faster? What areas do we still need to work on the hardest? Well, I will I will say as um the infrastructure buildout is one we could always go faster on.
▶ 1:14:24Um the uh the demand for uh compute is is pretty insatiable and um we as a country uh the the more chips that we get online, the more data centers that we build, I think the more power that we'll have to to keep driving all the next generation discoveries that that we want to make using AI. Um and that is as much as more even so a state and local issue than a federal issue.
▶ 1:14:46Um, so I think we can we can work with all of our all of our states to make sure that we can find reasonable ways where everyday citizens are very comfortable with um with this technology in their backyard. Uh uh and I think it's possible. I do have concern that it feels in the court of public opinion out there. We're losing the messaging battle on AI and really you see it in the form of moratoriums that communities are trying to to to implement. And I as I try to explain to people, you know, we're not going to put AI back in the bottle.
▶ 1:15:13It's a matter of whether we produce the AI and have control over those standards or China does. Do you and we don't have much time, but I'd really be interested maybe later even on your thoughts on what what we can in Congress can we be doing and I know my colleague Chairman or Congressman Obernoli has has been a leader in this area, but we've got to do a better job. Really not much time to
▶ 1:15:33I think the one thing is I think we can continue to emphasize areas where the American people care and are interested and that is particularly in AI for health. If we can show that artificial intelligence can dramatically change and improve the conditions of health care in America, that's something that everyone cares about and it matters for every American family.
▶ 1:15:50Great. Thank you. And chairman, I yield
▶ 1:15:53Gentleman yields. Now, I'd like to recognize the gentle lady from North Carolina, Miss Fushi.
▶ 1:15:59Thank you to the chair and the ranking member for holding this bipartisan hearing today. And thank you, Director Katzios, for your testimony and for appearing before us this morning. In March of this year, the Trump administration, and you just noted, announced the creation of the rateayer protection pledge to protect Americans from the electricity price increases associated with the country's data center buildout.
▶ 1:16:29The announcement came with great fanfare or lofty promises, even a fancy signing ceremony at the White House with you sitting right next to President Trump. This was supposed to be your answer to the worry and the fear felt by so many Americans that data centers would cause energy prices to skyrocket even more in years to come.
▶ 1:16:51Well, that was March and now it's July and Americans are wondering whether the rateayer protection pledge has made a real difference or whether it was just another empty promise from this administration. We already know the answer in North Carolina. Nothing has changed. Duke Energy tried to raise electricity rates on residential customers by 18%. And only after a public backlash did it lower the rate hike.
▶ 1:17:22But rates are still set to increase by more than 3% at a time when people can't afford to pay That's why three of four of the counties in my district have implemented moratoria on data centers development.
▶ 1:17:40That's why the town of Apex in my district rejected a proposed data center and imposed its own moratorum, a local grassroots decision that I proudly Director Katzios, you may not want to admit that the rateayer protection pledge has been a complete failure, but my constituents know the truth. The pledge promise to, and I quote, lower electricity costs for consumers in the long term.
▶ 1:18:11So my question is, are electricity costs for American consumers lower now than they were in March? I think the rape pair protection pledge is um one of the announcement of the president that is probably um the most consequential of of this term when it comes to AI.
▶ 1:18:28Um the idea that um the hyperscalers and the AI companies themselves made a commitment to the American people that um in any community they go into um they commit to um essentially build bring or buy all their own power um ultimately ensuring that um rates do not go up because of what they're building. And the president was very clear with them the American people should not be paying more for electricity because of these data centers.
▶ 1:18:57He was very firm and he was very clear and he got them to agree to do this. This was a big accomplishment and I don't think any other any president could could strongarm some of these the largest technology companies in the world to make such a commitment. Um and I think as as as these companies try to go out into the world and convince Americans that they need to build these data centers. I think because of the pledge um I think Americans can be can be much more confident that
▶ 1:19:20Mr. Chair I want to reclaim my time on that. That's not my question. The pledge promised that companies would quote agree to protect American consumers from price heights due to t data center energy and infrastructure requirements. So has this voluntary pledge stopped energy price hikes on local communities in this country?
▶ 1:19:45Energy price hikes caused from the addition of new data center capacity to the grid. Um yes it has stopped it because of that.
▶ 1:19:58Okay. The pledge made a whole series of promises not binding agreements about what data center companies would do to hold down electricity costs for Americans. It was bill bring or buy as you said earlier new electricity generation pay for all new power delivery infrastructure upgrades required for um their data centers. Um, also voluntary negotiate new separate rate structures with utilities.
▶ 1:20:28Are all new data centers in America complying with the promises of this voluntary pledge? I'm going to ask the question again.
▶ 1:20:38I I I don't know. I don't I don't keep track of that.
▶ 1:20:43Well, let me just say this. Energy prices are still soaring. data centers are still a major driver of it and this administration has done nothing to stop it. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 1:20:58Gentleoman yields back. I'd like [clears throat] to recognize the gentleman from uh California, Mr. Fong.
▶ 1:21:05Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Director Katas, it's great to see you again. Thank you for your uh leadership as you continue to advance America's AI and emerging technology uh leadership. Uh uh this is a very consequential time. Um my first question uh I you know I've read the report uh that came out uh last night. Uh with all the recommendations in this report um how will this accelerate our AI advancements to combat China.
▶ 1:21:31That that is the the the the the consequential question that we have to answer right now at this very moment.
▶ 1:21:37Yeah. I think the biggest one is essentially making the consequential decision that no matter what scientific domain you are pursuing research in, whether you are in material science or in chemistry or in biotechnology, artificial intelligence is an accelerant which everyone should be using as they pursue their next scientific endeavor. Um, what the Genesis mission is able to do is actually to start incorporating AI into all those different scientific areas.
▶ 1:22:07whether you're working at NASA or at Department of War or Department of Energy, um you will find a way to be able to work through a a whole of government approach to integrate that AI into your research. Um and that's what I'm most excited about.
▶ 1:22:19Um in the report, you emphasize um a number of workforce development proposals, innovation hubs, um apprentichip programs, technical education, community colleges, which is extremely important, manufacturing, uh uh technician programs. Um and what role do you envision community colleges and a lot of these other uh um how do you see them play a role in producing a skilled workforce needed for AI cyber security advanced manufacturing?
▶ 1:22:45Totally. I mean we we really have to rebuild the link between discovery and domestic manufacturing. We have to be able to integrate sort of hands-on training, apprenticeships and practitioner pathways broadly into STEM. And I think by doing so we can sort of build these dense regional innovation clusters so that these as these breakthroughs happen we create this broad-based prosperity across across the US. And in order for that to happen we have to leverage the types of institutions you were talking about community colleges and the like.
▶ 1:23:13Oh I I I certainly couldn't agree with you more. Uh that is the reason why we worked with you on the NSF AI education act. Um appreciate uh your guidance on that. Uh the report also points to the Mojave Air and Spaceport as an example of how regulatory flexibility and local leadership uh launched America's commercial space industry. Uh what specific elements of of the Mojave model uh are were most critical to its success and and that you see and how can Congress replicate um those principles in in other emerging technology sectors.
▶ 1:23:43I think whether it's Moavein or I I think the key is you have to the realization or one of the one of the core sort of realizations that led to the to the new report is that we're in a new era in the US today where the interactions of the private sector, the federal government, academia and industry all together are what drive next generation scientific discovery.
▶ 1:24:04And the better pathways you can make and links that you can make between the four parts of the of the science ecosystem, the better, the easier it is for you to move from one ecosystem to another to share ideas to accelerate your your your scientific research progress. That's what we that's what we focus on and and I think the example that you gave is a one where you you create an environment where um the typical players that you would see in a in that domain actually had access to it.
▶ 1:24:30uh you know having a dedicated uh location where companies can rapidly test u iterate fail safely um you do you see congress um uh uh developing um policies or how would you uh encourage similar environments for AI, autonomous systems, advanced aviation, robotics?
▶ 1:24:50Yes, we we need all all the above. I think one of the the the first piece of paper um that I was able that I ever worked on that that the president signed was the creation of the um the IP or the the the the drone pilot program at the Department of Transportation in in 2017. And I think what has always been a a core thesis of the of our administration is that we have to have the opportunity to test new emerging technologies in different environments.
▶ 1:25:17See where they work, where they don't, where um you know the American people are comfortable with them, where they're not, and based on this testing, then you can make the right decisions about how to promulgate them into into the commercial environment. Um so to me, you know, having the best test range as possible and creating environments where Americans can go test their technologies, we have to do as much of that as possible.
▶ 1:25:36And my last question in the time that I have, uh, you you outline in the report these new institutions, XLBs, ARPA style organizations, missiondriven institutes, um, u, you know, curiositydriven research centers. Can you expand on on your vision of how you see all of these integrating together?
▶ 1:25:51Yeah. The truth is now that all of America's great scientists are not in one place. They're spread out all over the place. And what I think one of the great things we worked with SF on was this XLabs initiative. It showed that you can bring together a multid-disciplinary set of scientists to work on a specific scientific endeavor in a set finite period of time to pursue something that you're not necessarily going to see at a university or you won't see it in the private sector.
▶ 1:26:16So what we need the government funding open to are different places where research can be done and that's reality of today. It all doesn't happen just at a university or just in industry. It can happen other places and we need to be able to fund those times.
▶ 1:26:28My times are expired. Thank you for your leadership. Look forward to working with you Mr. Chairman. and I yield back.
▶ 1:26:32Thank you. Thank you very much. I'd like to recognize him from Rhode Island, uh, Representative Amo.
▶ 1:26:38Thank you, Chair Babin, uh, for holding today's hearing. Director Katzios, uh, despite the promises made in your report, you aren't launching us into the golden age of innovation. You're sending us back to the stone age.
▶ 1:26:51Earlier you said we should focus on scientists, but under your watch over 10,000 STEM PhDs left the federal workforce last year and thousands of grants were cancelled because a doge bro found they contain phrases like disadvantaged communities equity or brace yourself orientation. Your administration has taken a hacksaw to the scientific enterprise that's ensured America has developed almost every new technology for a century.
▶ 1:27:21You've allowed the Environmental Protection Agency to close its research arm, the Office of Research and Development, which identifies which chemicals shouldn't be in our air and water because they're toxic. You've let the National Weather Service become a shell of its former self. critically understaffed during hurricane season because Doge drove away 15% of its workforce last year. You've risked reversing generations of science leadership, seeding the 21st century to China.
▶ 1:27:5021 countries, including China, have created recruitment programs to lure away our top scientific talent because you made it pretty easy. Director Katzios, you promised to usher in the golden age of American innovation. I don't think any of those results sound golden. Do they? To you, do they seem innovative? All I see is tarnish and deterioration. I think you're trying to pass off a cheap knockoff as solid gold. So, I'd like to break down how we got here.
▶ 1:28:18The so-called Department of Government efficiency corroded our nation scientific leadership. Doge was supposed to close its doors at the start of this month, but much like a damaging parasite, Doge has lived on, continuing to wreak havoc throughout the government. We saw evidence of this earlier this hearing when ranking member Lofrren showed that a July 16th briefing noted DOA's invol involvement in NSF operations. I asked unanimous consent to enter into the record this Washington Post article on Doge.
▶ 1:28:47It's titled Doge was supposed to be dead. Its remnants are everywhere. Director Katzios, in what capacity has Doge influenced NSF operations? Are they NSF employees? OSTP employees? Tell me where Doge is right
▶ 1:29:04I'll speak for OTP. There are no uh Doge employees at OSTP.
▶ 1:29:08Well, look, I get that that you're trying to pass off the responsibility because they don't exist anymore, but you can't hide from its influence. It's there. It remains. Uh this is not a mystery to anyone. It's it's actually plain as ink on paper. Now does Doge have uh on its organizational chart individuals who were on boarded uh as as members? Does OSTP still have remaining Doge staff on its or chart?
▶ 1:29:37OTP never had Doge staff.
▶ 1:29:39Okay. Look, I want to believe you. Uh but it's pretty hard to believe what this administration has said about Doge. So the challenge here is we you've said one thing and done another uh repeatedly. Now does doge uh members in any part of the government currently lies with OSTP in in any way?
▶ 1:30:00Tim, I I don't think Doge exists anymore. It's pretty clear that
▶ 1:30:04there there's a record that suggests
▶ 1:30:08I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to how to help you. There is a record that suggests that Doge remains a big part of operations across our government.
▶ 1:30:18I can speak to OSTP. We don't have any
▶ 1:30:21Okay. Well, I'm glad that you're on the record there and I I'll continue to follow up with you on that because ultimately this proves to be a losing approach. Uh that hollowing out our nation scientific leadership leaves us weaker, leaves us less prepared to make discoveries in the future. And uh the commitment uh that I hope you're able to make today is that the principles that they left behind of destruction of elimination of our capacity wholesale isn't something that you'll carry on. Is that something that you'd commit to?
▶ 1:30:50I commit to doing everything I can to um deliver on the president's agenda of ushering a golden age of American innovation. And beyond the president of the United States, do you commit to not leaving our scientific apparatus in in shambles because of decisions made by by Doge that linger in our government?
▶ 1:31:08I I don't think, sir, I would be doing my job if I wanted to to leave the scientific enterprise in shambles. So, I I will commit to not do that.
▶ 1:31:16I'm glad we can agree on that. That's a good thing. Now, look, I want to cap off our discussion pretty quickly. Um, the NSF recently announced its intention to dismantle the Ocean Observatories Initiative. This was designed to provide data on our oceans to our scientists, fishermen, emergency managers, and weather forecasters for decades to come. But NSF was going to rip it all up from the ocean floor. Fortunately, after backlash, they reverse course and and I hope that you continue to support a legitimate process as NSF continues the future of OI.
▶ 1:31:46Thank you. I yield back. I'd like to recognize the gentlewoman from South Carolina, Miss Biggs.
▶ 1:31:53Thank you, Chairman Babin, and thank you, Director Croatios, for appearing here today before our committee and for the OSTP's work over the past year. President Trump has set an ambitious goal.
▶ 1:32:08The United States must lead the technologies that will define the 21st Maintaining that position is essential to our economic strength and our national security, especially as we compete with the Chinese Communist Meeting that challenge will depend on abundant, reliable, and affordable energy. South Carolina is well positioned to help lead America's nuclear renaissance.
▶ 1:32:35We have a skilled workforce with decades of experience like those at the Okoni Nuclear Station in my district. Savannah River National Laboratory conducts critical work in nuclear materials, waste processing, and the fusion fuel cycle, which we've already mentioned earlier today.
▶ 1:32:52South Carolina is taking steps toward the nuclear generation, while leaders such as the Pameda Nuclear Coalition are working to keep our state at the forefront of the nuclear Direct Director Croatius, how is OSTP helping to accelerate the deployment of advanced nuclear technologies and what can Congress do to help?
▶ 1:33:16So, President Trump, I think, made one of the most transformational decisions for civil nuclear power since President Eisenhower announced Adams for peace in 1953 with his executive order last year. Um, you know, prior to President Trump's actions, you know, we weren't testing new reactors. We were shutting down perfectly good reactors and we were totally dependent on on other countries for fuel. Um, if you guys remember the the average NRC review time, I think for licensing took more than 20,000 hours.
▶ 1:33:44Um, and and I think we've done a tremendous job in in lowering that and in finding an opportunity to dramatically accelerate kind of advanced advanced nuclear. I think one of the things that I'm most excited about is um the president set this ambitious goal for the Department of Energy reactor pilot program to have at least three reactors that would achieve criticality by the 4th of July of this year. Um and I think I'm excited and very thrilled to say that we surpassed that goal.
▶ 1:34:11We actually had four test reactors reach criticality in the last three month a few few months. Um, and this is something that, you know, I personally went out to visit at at Idaho National Lab a few a few months ago, and I think it just shows that if if you set bold, ambitious goals for Americans and you set the regulatory structure in a right way that um that there is confidence and understanding from our innovators on what they're responsible for, we can achieve truly truly great things.
▶ 1:34:36And I'm very grateful for those efforts. So the Genesis mission is another important part of maintaining America's technological edge by bringing together our national laboratories, leading researchers, and advanced AI The mission has the potential to accelerate scientific discovery across a wide range of fields and ensure that the technologies of the future are developed here in the United States, not in China.
▶ 1:35:05So, director, how is OSTP helping advance the Genesis mission? And what could this initiative mean for America's long-term technological leadership and our competition with China?
▶ 1:35:18Yeah, I think this will be probably one of the most consequential um scientific programs uh in in American history. And I don't I don't say that lightly. Um what we do from OTP is coordinate the efforts across multiple agencies. Um when the president launched the initiative, DOE was the um was the first agency to get started with it. They're building the actual platform itself.
▶ 1:35:38Um, and as I mentioned in my opening opening remarks, um, we're very thrilled that today at the at the Genesis uh, summit where I where I was before I came here to this to to this hearing, we're able to announce a $5 billion in commitment in new federal commitments with more than 15 different agencies involved, each with their own grand challenges relating to to AI and discovery. Um, and and and to me, I think that's something amazing to see. You had health related ones from from HHS and NIH.
▶ 1:36:07You had very interesting related ones to to to construction that were done out of Department of Trans transportation and so many others. And I think our function at OSTP is to help coordinate those efforts across the across the across the USG um and make sure that the the right programs are being tied into the right programs at at DOE.
▶ 1:36:24That's exciting. I have a background in healthcare and also connection with the military. So, um, I'll I look at that as a a bright future and hopeful that we'll [clears throat] see those changes take place very soon. Um, I have more questions about the research security around the Genesis mission, but my time is expiring, so hopefully I can submit that to you to get your feedback.
▶ 1:36:49Absolutely. And we'll we'll send you a list of all the initiatives or great new ones from the VA and also from DO I think touch on some of your interests.
▶ 1:36:56I look forward to it. Thank you and I yield back.
▶ 1:36:58Thank you. Representative yields back. I'd like to re recognize the uh Representative Superman from Virginia. Five minutes.
▶ 1:37:07Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh thank you, Mr. Katzios, for for being here and for coming back. Uh I um I want to thank you for um releasing your report. Uh I think I had to zoom through it this morning. It's pretty lengthy, but I appreciate you putting in that work into it. I I I know a lot of people have uh um asked about different aspects of science and technology and you have a pretty broad portfolio. Uh I wanted to talk about AI uh specifically though.
▶ 1:37:32Um on May 21st, uh the president was going to put out a an executive order on artificial intelligence and a lot of it was going to be around um regulating frontier models and there was going to be some uh looked like mandatory standards when it came to AI models, but then that executive order was withdrawn uh and then something else came out a while later that talked about voluntary standards.
▶ 1:37:55Um could you talk about what went into that decision to withdraw uh that executive order and why um subsequently a less um uh stringent policy was released. I can't speak to those details but I am familiar with the the the executive order that that was released and I think it was something that um very clear articulated the importance of having voluntary commitments from the the frontier labs to share their models um in advance of of release with the US government.
▶ 1:38:25um and leverage the the talents and skills at KC and at NSA to to do evaluations relating to to cyber capabilities um and and make sure that when the models are put out to to to the public, the appropriate guard rails and protections are in place.
▶ 1:38:40So, were you a part of the decision-m to um withdraw that initial executive
▶ 1:38:45Um in my role at the White House, I'm part of the broader decision-m process on on AI policy. And do you think these uh legal these safety requirements should be mandatory or do you think they should stay voluntary?
▶ 1:38:57The president's executive order um uh called for voluntary commitments. Um and I think at this time that's the appropriate policy action.
▶ 1:39:04And so what what's to prevent uh someone from coming up with an AI model that could be dangerous and they decide not to comply uh and they decide to just unleash it and it creates a lot of havoc. I think as as you and I this committee knows very well, the the number of um players that have the resources to train a frontier model with the capabilities that would pose a risk are quite limited and quite few.
▶ 1:39:30Um and we've uh were able to get voluntary commitments from from all of those that have that capability.
▶ 1:39:36And the the final executive order that went out, it cut the government's review time from 90 days to 30 days. Was there a reason for that? Um the final one did say 30 days and we we believe that that is um sufficient time to be able to um work voluntarily with the companies.
▶ 1:39:54Uh again none of these companies are required to to share their models with the USG but I think what we have seen is that the that the industry is interested in in uh in having the expertise of KC and NSA weigh in and help them do an even better job in building their guardrails.
▶ 1:40:09Great. And I'm going to switch subjects. uh on chips. Um we have heard about how you know auto manufacturers are increasingly relying on uh advanced chips. Uh but obviously uh you know so does um a lot of other things a lot of other components and um one concern I think people are starting to have is is the sourcing of chips because right now we want people to source them from the United States and US chip makers. We passed the chips act.
▶ 1:40:38Um, but there's a lot of companies who are now trying clamoring to try to source them from suppliers from China like uh CXMT, YMTC. And uh I'm just um I would love to know the administration's position on whether you think um we should allow American companies to to source from these
▶ 1:40:58Well, the our Trump administration policies are are bringing back um advanced chip manufacturing here United States. I think um you may have seen that um this month uh we're able to secure another hundred billion dollar commitment from uh TSMC for further semiconductor manufacturing investments in in the US bringing their total to to 265 billion. Um Micron themselves just broke ground on a on a hundred billion dollar um New York semiconductor
▶ 1:41:25I I know that. I just I'm trying to ask um do you think it's okay for American companies to buy from CXMT or YMTC? I want to know the administration's position on that. I think the most important thing is we build domestic capacity to be able to in the long term provide the you know have the chips um developed here in the United States that um can meet um meet the needs of of our American companies.
▶ 1:41:48I didn't get a yes or no on that. Could could you give us at least where the the administration is right now on sourcing that because they've been listed as a significant threat to US national security and so I would assume the answer would be no right now. Right. But do you think that might change in the future? I think the most important thing is we have to build capacity here. We obviously don't want to be uh in, you know, doing business with anyone that's on the entity list. Um and uh and and that's something that that is clear and in law.
▶ 1:42:14I I yield back. Thank you.
▶ 1:42:16Gentleman yields. Uh like to recognize the representative from Georgia, Dr.
▶ 1:42:23Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. Glad to have you here today. I I was curious, you know, when we talk about research and actually uh keeping people from investing in waste, fraud, abuse, espionage, having foreign actors come to the United States, learn and then apply uh what they learn here against us when they go back to their own countries.
▶ 1:42:44How do we find that balance between investing in a workforce and development uh that's that's truly homegrown and protected versus collaborating with countries that actually can benefit us? Uh what do you do to balance that? I it's one of the the toughest challenges in the in the science ecosystem. Um I think for for many many years the United States has has been um uh the the home for for scientists from all around the world to come and and research.
▶ 1:43:11And what we have seen over over the last decade or so is that um not all scientists come here with the intent just to help you know pursue great new scientific endeavors. they come here to try to um commit espionage to figure out what we're working on and share it back with um uh with with adversarial power. So to us, I think what we need to do is be able to strike a balance and and create actually kind of a riskbased approach to to monitoring the efforts across our science ecosystem.
▶ 1:43:37It begins at the federal level with our national labs that we control and also DOW labs. But I think there's a lot of lessons learned that have to go out to our academic institutions to get them a little more aware that this problem exists. Um, you know, universities were not set up to do, you know, large-scale background checks on everybody who was in their university. Um, yet so much so much of the of the stuff that we're concerned about happens there. So, what's important is that we can share the resources of the federal government with them to to kind of minimize the risk
▶ 1:44:06So, I'm super concerned just considering that we have about a million students in our advanced educational system. Uh, over a quarter million of those are from China, a direct competitor of ours. and they've been trying to push and the president's actually talked about getting it up to 600,000 students per year just from China alone which very much concerns me. So I'll be looking more into that and what we're doing to protect ourselves from that.
▶ 1:44:28Uh America's biotechnology leadership depends on having workforce with the skills to turn scientific discoveries into products and manufacturing here at home. Uh that's why I've introduced a biotechnology workforce alignment act to better align workforce training with industry needs. How have you worked to strengthen biotechnology workforce and where can Congress be most most helpful in developing that specific talent?
▶ 1:44:54Yeah, biotech has been um an important uh priority for for the administration if you think about kind of what the waterfall effects are for this big AI push is these models can start being applied to a lot of the biological sciences and and I think it's something that we're encouraging um NIH and other relevant agencies to to focus their funding on.
▶ 1:45:12I think through those funding opportunities, I think we have a great a great chance to to do the the the workforce programs that you're talking about and make sure that our grant and fellowships programs are are aligned with sort of biotech as a as a
▶ 1:45:25Great. Two universities huge in in technology and development, of course, University of Georgia and Georgia Tech, my alma mater. Uh both of them doing amazing things right now. at University of Georgia was recognized for the fourth straight year as the nation's leader in bringing university research market through industry partnerships which is exactly the kind of innovation ecosystem we need if we're going to lead in e AI advanced manufacturing and other critical technology.
▶ 1:45:53How are you working to strengthen partnerships between research universities and industries so we build regional talent pipelines for the next generation of scientists, engineers, and entrepreneurs?
▶ 1:46:03Yeah, you're you're so right. the um the indust the private industry now funds about 700 billion dollars in R&D annually and that's far more than the government and academia combined. So we as a as a government need to think very carefully around the exact problem that you mentioned. How can you build stronger bridges between the between industry and academia? And what's interesting about it is every time I talk to any university presidents, that is one of the top things on their list.
▶ 1:46:32They recognize that the amount of money being spent on reach and development outside of academia and in industry is something that they need to be part of. And I think those are the types of relationships that ultimately build those ecosystems that you talk about. I love that that private federal uh relationship that we kind of protect right now and it's really the future of America when we talk about developing the future technologies.
▶ 1:46:53Uh likewise advanced manufacturing pilot facility at Georgia Tech has helped companies commercialize new technologies and adopt AI enabled manufacturing and train workforce needed to support them. Uh I'm really qu short on time so I'll I'll respect that m Mr. Speaker but uh or Mr. Chair sorry that I'm ahead of myself aren't I?
▶ 1:47:14uh is a basically I I'll just basically submit this this question, but basically I'm looking for ways to re-industrialize America and how we can partnership and I'll leave that to our question we submit. Thank you.
▶ 1:47:24Thank you.
▶ 1:47:26Gentleman yields back. I'd like to recognize uh Representative McBride of Delaware. Five minutes.
▶ 1:47:32Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and uh ranking member Lorren for holding this hearing. Director Katzios, it's good to have you back before the committee. Um, it is critical that small and medium-sized manufacturers are able to adopt technologies into their processes. This keeps American manufacturing competitive and at the cutting edge. Yesterday, you released a report in which you highlighted bipartisan manufacturing programs and you specifically mentioned the manufacturing extension partnership program as essential to this process.
▶ 1:48:02Meanwhile, the president's budget has proposed slashing the manufacturing extension partnership program for two years in a row. So, I'm curious, is the administration reversing its position on
▶ 1:48:16Um, it's something that we talk about certainly in the Golden Age report as philosophically something that um very much aligns with the tenants of the report. I look forward to going into the the 28 budget cycle and working with OM and with NIS to try to find ways that um those types of programs um do do find some funding because I think it's it's critically important for for the future of of manufacturing. Well, I'm I'm glad to hear your commitment and interest in that.
▶ 1:48:40And certainly, I hope we can continue to all work in a bipartisan fashion in support of programs like the Manufacturing Extension Partnership that have brought economic activity and jobs to Delaware and to states across the country. Um, last time you sat in that chair, we discussed the impact that rapidly expanding data centers have on our communities, including increased energy and water demand.
▶ 1:49:03This fear is not theoretical and Delaware families are paying $18.79 per kilowatt hour today, up from $17.97 last year, squeezing budgets and forcing Americans to make hard decisions. That day, you said President Trump supports the idea that technology companies should pay the costs that come with data centers they bring online. You also said you hope data center operators and semiconductor manufacturers would be incentivized by the free market to become more efficient.
▶ 1:49:31Since then, uh, you have said that quote, "American AI leadership should never come at the cost of Americans ability to pay their electricity bills." I agree. And President Trump also touted the rateayer protection pledge of voluntary agreement for companies to build, bring, or buy energy for their data centers.
▶ 1:49:47Now, I know you uh answered some questions earlier on this particular topic, but you mentioned before in one of my colleagues questions uh in one of your answers to one of my colleagues questions that you don't keep track of compliance when it comes to the rateayer protection pledge. Who does?
▶ 1:50:05Um I'll have to get back to you on that. I think the National Energy Dominance Council of the White House is a primary sort of hub for our our energy efforts at the White House. And I I'd like a little bit more clarity on how the administration's going to or is already holding companies accountable if they violate the the pledge. Obviously, it's voluntary, but we want to see adoption of it. What will the administration do? Is the president going to dictate and strong strongarm companies into compliance like like China does?
▶ 1:50:35I think what we're seeing is that most of these companies um are extremely incentivized to not only you know follow the letter of the pledge but do even more. I think for them to be able to get the support of the local communities in order to actually build them really sort of substantial commitments have to be made.
▶ 1:50:55I mean, we we've seen in in communities across the country where data center operators have agreed essentially to to cover property tax for five or six years in order for the data center to be built, we've seen sort of dramatic commitments on sort of education spending and teacher salary increases. Um, so to me, I I I think, you know, I almost see, you know, it's almost like what the rateayer protection pledge is is table stakes because I think a lot of these communities require even more and uh and that's what they're looking for from these these data center providers.
▶ 1:51:25But what happens if they aren't abiding by what the community wants or what frankly local jurisdictions or state governments require, what the pledge seeks to facilitate and and and push for? What happens if they don't? you know, as you know, as a as a tech policy coordination officer at the White House. I'm not a sort of a an enforcement body, but I I kind of do go back to what I said said before.
▶ 1:51:50I think I think those business models are not sustainable if the communities themselves um don't want them there. And I think what we're seeing is that um in order for these data centers to be built, the um pretty significant and material concessions have to be made to the citizens of that area. And I think many times is to the great benefit of them. I think is as I mentioned, I mean there's communities out there where where literally people don't pay properly.
▶ 1:52:15Just one quick quick follow-up question. Um, one thing we talked about last time was the opportunities with technologies to diminish the energy and water needs, liquid cooling technologies. Do you have an update on the administration's approach to investing in those types of
▶ 1:52:29I'll I'll have to get back to you on that, but I I agree with you yet a second time that that we should be doing that. Great.
▶ 1:52:34Gentleman's time's expired. Thank you. Um, I'd like to recognize the uh gentleman from uh Utah, Dr. Kennedy.
▶ 1:52:43Chair Babin, thank you for the time. And Director Casios, thanks again for coming back to our committee. Appreciate that opportunity and to see you advancing the Trump administration's efforts to put the United States at the forefront of scientific discovery as well as achievement. From AI and nuclear fusion to exploring further and farther into space, America is leading. But we all know China is not far behind.
▶ 1:53:04We all need to remain vigilant and committed and you Utah is happy to play an important part as we seek to advance the mission by investing in artificial intelligence, critical minerals as well as energy development. So, as I am the sponsor of the Genesis Act, I'm working to codify the great work the administration is doing to harness the power of new technology to supercharge innovation. Utah has a major role in fusion energy commercialization since burillium, a critical mineral mind in my district, is essential to that process.
▶ 1:53:33At his recent hearing, I asked Energy Secretary Wright about fusion commercialization, and he responded that quote, "We're all in," unquote, on supporting fusion commercialization. The Genesis mission integrates AI into our R&D infrastructure, and your Genesis mission, EO, specifically highlights the importance of fusion and quantum computing. Do you agree that AI will help accelerate fusion development and that fusion will help power AI?
▶ 1:53:57Yes, I couldn't agree more and I think that's uh we lay out that in a lot of detail in the um DOE's fusion science and technology roadmap that came out a few months ago and um and I think it's something that um we have prioritized specifically in the FY28 R&D priorities memo that I wrote with director vote that got got published yesterday.
▶ 1:54:15Grateful for that work. Excellent. And I recently introduced the power in the future of American space dominance act which would codify NASA's space nuclear priorities and deployment timelines recently established by NASA and OSTP. Meeting those timelines will require access to domestic nuclear material particularly emissium currently held within the DOE complex. How will OSTP work with NASA and DOE to ensure this material is available by 2028 to secure the supply chain and meet our national space objectives?
▶ 1:54:44So, we put out a an N an a national science technology memorandum kind of laying out the the space nuclear goals and I think um we as a White House uh have the opportunity to be able to to do the policy coordination and and bring both of those entities to the table together to make sure that it happens. Um it's a presidential priority. It was in the EO and it's something that we're we're working towards achieving.
▶ 1:55:05Thank you. My final question is uh the Genesis mission executive order directs the incorporation of data sets from federally funded research beyond the national labs. What progress has been made on that directive and what are the main obstacles to getting that data into the American science cloud platform?
▶ 1:55:20Yeah, good good progress. Today, as I think I mentioned before in the hearing, was a a big announcement where we've essentially taken Genesis a whole of government. Um, we had 15 different agencies announce commitments to Genesis mission to the tune of of about $5 billion worth of R&D spending. But part of that was a commitment to do data data set sharing with the with the instrument that's being built at at DOE. Um, and I look forward to those agencies pursuing it and and anything that we can do from the White House level to help um to help with facilitation of the coordination between agencies, we're going to be all
▶ 1:55:50Thank you, director, for your time and we stand with you to help support those efforts. And Mr. Chair, with that, I yield back.
▶ 1:55:56Thank you.
▶ 1:55:57Representative yields back. Uh, now I'd like to represent uh recognize the gentleman from California, Mr.
▶ 1:56:05Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, at our last oversight hearing, I showed a chart of NSF grants awarded down more than half from two years ago. A colleague of mine on the other side wanted to make sure we were also looking at dispersements. So, today I bro brought both charts. Here they are. You can also look behind you. It may be easier to see. Uh, in the first chart we see that NSF has awarded 55% less grants at this point this year than at the same point in 2024.
▶ 1:56:33You can see that the little [snorts] line that says today, the red line way at the bottom is this year. And then the cluster of lines is uh under the previous administration. The yellow line is what happened last year. If you go to the next slide, [snorts] this goes to dispersements. Uh you can see at this point in 2024, $4.3 billion had been awarded and this year at the same point in time only three billion. That's $1.3 billion less, a 30% cut.
▶ 1:57:03the lowest level in six years. And as [snorts] my first chart showed, that smaller pot is going to half as many researchers. When awards concentrate into fewer, bigger grants, the researchers who lose out are the first are the early career applicants in the smaller labs in our research community. And Mr. Director, you said in your opening remarks that you thought we must prioritize young American scientists. Yeah, I believe these are exactly the scientists who are hurt most by the drastic reduction in the number of research grants and the slow rolling of dispersements.
▶ 1:57:34So, can you explain to this committee and to the researchers watching why this is happening? Why is NSF slow rolling both grant money and radically cutting the total number of grants?
▶ 1:57:44Again, I would refer you to to to NSF. I I'm an OSTP, but um I'm happy to look into that and and certainly come back with an answer. I think
▶ 1:57:51I think that's an unacceptable answer. You're the president's science adviser. Why is this happening? You know why this is happening? Explain to the American people why this is happening.
▶ 1:58:00I think the most important thing to consider as as we disperse grants is that we have to make sure that um the the the process by which we do these selections and ultimately lay them out are aligned with the the president's budget. And I think from all of our agencies, whether it's NSF or NIST or DOE, what we attempt to do is is run through a process where um we put out NOFOs, we get solicitations come in and applications come in and and the assessments happen.
▶ 1:58:28Um and to me, I think the pace and the speed at which we do that has to be responsible. And I do see these charts and and nothing would would make me happier to to make sure that we are we are getting closer to where we were in previous years. So, I'll do everything that I possibly can to to to help move that line because I think it's important for us to get these appropriate dollars out to scientists.
▶ 1:58:47Okay. You are going in the wrong direction as you can see between 25 and 26. Um, so this is hurting American researchers. Now, earlier you testified that um NSF grant approvals have uh not been reviewed by political officials at OSTP or officials. At least I think that's what you said. But I want to give you the chance to make sure that that's what you wanted to testify because we've been directly informed this is not true.
▶ 1:59:12Is it still your testimony today that no one at OSTP is playing any role in individual NSF grant approvals?
▶ 1:59:21I am not personally involved in any individual grant.
▶ 1:59:24That is a different answer to what I
▶ 1:59:25I am not aware of anyone at NS at OSTP that is working on individual grant approvals. I have never asked for that and I would never condone that and I don't think any of us are.
▶ 1:59:35Okay. for the records of felony to testify falsely before Congress.
▶ 1:59:40I'm well aware of that and I'm also well aware that no one at OSTP is involved in individual grant level decisions.
▶ 1:59:48Is anyone at OSTP involved at some kind of grouping of of grant decisions?
▶ 1:59:54I'm not familiar with what a grouping of a grant decision is, but when an individual grant for for a particular research project is made, we're certainly not involved in that.
▶ 2:00:02Okay. Sounds a little squishy to me. Um, I want to just close with this comment. The administration says that dollars should not be the measure of success when it comes to science, but it says exactly the opposite when it comes to our defense department. As a member of the Armed Services Committee, I'm deeply familiar with the administration's $ 1.5 trillion defense goal for the next fiscal year, roughly 50% more than last year. The administration has stated that that money is necessary to our national defense, while it proposes cuts to American science of roughly 50%.
▶ 2:00:30No one, I think, Democrat or Republican, would say that cutting the Department of Defense would enable the continuation of American leadership in national security. That yet that is exactly what the administration is proposing when it comes to science. It's as ridiculous in science as it would be for our defense department. Do you think, Mr. Director, that it would be possible to maintain American leadership in national security while cutting the budget for the Department of Defense by 50%.
▶ 2:00:53Well, with the budget proposal,
▶ 2:00:54it's really yes or no.
▶ 2:00:55The president proposing the largest R&D budget in the history of the country. Yeah. So, I'm going to take that as a no. Thanks. And I yield back.
▶ 2:01:05Representative yields back. I'd like to recognize the U. Representative from Alaska, Mr. Begage.
▶ 2:01:12Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, director. The Department of Energy's Climate Working Group was disbanded after lawsuits alleged it violated the Federal Advisories Committee Act or Faka. Congress exempted the nationalmies from FACA decades ago.
▶ 2:01:28In your view, should the federal government treat the national academyy's study as a gold standard for policymaking when it is not subject to the same requirements that apply to most other federal advisory bodies while receiving significant funding from private donors with clear policy interests.
▶ 2:01:46I think it's something that we should certainly look into and I applaud the committee for for asking those those important questions. I think whether it's uh themies or anyone else that's involved in in these scientific um analyses for for that lead to policy decisions, I think it's important that that they follow the same transparency that everyone else does.
▶ 2:02:03I completely agree with you. Um shifting gears, the the budget shifts resources away from legacy institutional funding models toward direct support for AI, quantum, and biotechnology research. Can you speak to how this restructuring strengthens America's position against Chinese Communist Party investment in these same technologies?
▶ 2:02:24I think what's important as as an administration is to be opinionated about what the most important priorities are for America and the American people. Um, taking no position and saying we should just fund everything kind of peanut butter is not is not the way that you uh achieve and maintain leadership and the technologies are most critical for our future. Um, and we've taken the position that there there are some like AI for science, like quantum, like fusion, like space that that we have to win on.
▶ 2:02:50And as you mentioned uh in your previous testimony, the private sector is doing a tremendous amount of R&D, right? And they do a far greater share of R&D than the federal government does. And so when the federal government is making uh prioritization decisions around research and development,
▶ 2:03:08it makes sense that we would be prioritizing areas where uh there may be less current incentive for R&D in the private sector. Is that true?
▶ 2:03:17You're precisely correct. And I think a great example that um that we grapple with a lot is in in artificial intelligence. Right now tens and tens of billions of dollars are being invested in in AI R&D in the private sector. Um the question is for us administration and as a government what are the areas of R&D and AI that remain underfunded in areas where we can make an impact and a great example of that is sort of metrology or measurement science at at NIST that you know only we as a government are kind of best equipped to work on that and that will pay
▶ 2:03:47dividends across uh across an industry that itself is is spending hundreds of billions.
▶ 2:03:52I think alignment with R&D spending is is so important. There's there are not unlimited dollars uh to be invested where we choose to invest. It needs to be in areas where really only uh an entity the size of the US federal government can provide a step function change in what we would expect from the private sector with respect to those uh those portions of scientific R&D. One final question.
▶ 2:04:17The Genesis mission now spans nine federal agencies and over5 billion in commitments. what mechanisms are in place to make sure that this becomes a genuine force multiplier for American science uh rather than another layer of federal bureaucracy.
▶ 2:04:33Yeah, so under the under the OSTP, there's something called the National Science and uh and Technology Council or NSTC and there's a specific NSC committee that that works to coordinate genesis activities across across the government. What we want to be is a facilitator for the important conversations between DOE and all the counterpart agencies uh and do it in the most lightweight way that just allows um connections to to the instrument that DOE is building while also not creating a lot of a lot of bureaucracy. Um and I think we're we're going to hit the mark
▶ 2:05:01And and just because I see I've still got some additional time here. Um one more question. uh how does how does your team uh think about milestonebased research and uh and prize competitions as a way to drive uh outcomes.
▶ 2:05:19Thank you for asking that. I think in in science a new golden age that that that I published yesterday, prize and challenges and milestone based um endeavors are are very much highlighted as things we should be doing more of. Um being able to set ambitious goals and reward people for performance I think is something that we should do more of and that's what what prize and challenges can do.
▶ 2:05:38Um milestonebased scientific pursuits allow us to have a much larger top of funnel where more um participants can begin the journey on making that discovery and as progression happens um we can start concentrating capital on those that are making the best progress. So I think both of those are are critically important to to achieving accelerated discovery. I love the way that you're rethinking uh R&D and the R&D investment of the American taxpayer. I think it makes all kinds of sense and it will drive better outcomes uh for America moving forward.
▶ 2:06:08And with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:06:10Thank you.
▶ 2:06:11Representative yields back. I'd like to recognize uh the Representative Freriedman from California. Five
▶ 2:06:18Thank you, Chair Babin, and to Director uh Katios for coming here today. Uh, director, the administration's national policy framework for AI recognizes the need for federal protections against AI generated deep fakes of Americans voices and likely likelihoods. That's a very important step, but it's not everything when it comes to AI.
▶ 2:06:41As the representative of nearly every Hollywood film and television studio in Congress, I can tell you that AI is of critical concern to my constituents. Absolutely critical. And I hear from creators every day, from photographers, actors, directors, writers, journalists about how they are worried that AI won't just illegally replicate their voice in likelihood, it'll also eliminate the need for their jobs.
▶ 2:07:09It's musicians, it's singers, it's so many more Americans. And that's why I'm supporting legislation like the No Fakes Act. Director, as the person who oversees the development and execution of the nation's science and technology policy agenda, will you commit to working with me and with all sides of the aisle on this bill and about the issue of AI replicating an individual's voice and likeliness without their permission?
▶ 2:07:35I certainly commit to working through on this particular topic. Um, the White House put out a a set of legislative priorities around AI and one of them was precisely on this topic. um you know, we need to protect American uh creators and find and find the right legislative pathway to make that a reality and and uh I would love to work with you and and and your colleagues on this topic.
▶ 2:07:56That would be great. Um because this is something that we need to get ahead of. We can't wait until we see tens of thousands of American workers displaced out of the industry that that I am concerned about here and also about losing our creative edge, right? Uh, so how do you believe that federal AI policy should balance innovation with protecting artists and other workers whose livelihoods depend on their intellectual property and their
▶ 2:08:24I think again back to what we were talking about. If we can, it was something we had in our legislative proposal that we want to see sort of Congress take take action on. um to us, I mean, we want to find a way for um our greatest creators, whether they're in in film and music or anything else, to um to be able to um you know, not not have their uh uh their their own, I guess, IP being used in uh for AI purposes without um without their consent.
▶ 2:08:51And I think it's something that um you know, we can work through a a legal solution that works well and and it's going to require cooperation between between Congress and and the administration,
▶ 2:08:59right? So it seems a little bit easier or clear-cut if someone's using your image, right? Or someone's using your voice. Although we have seen that happen still with a lack of of oversight. But what safeguards do you think is necessary for we can ensure AI complements rather than displaces other kinds of creators like directors, like writers? How do we ensure that we just don't have machines now replacing all of those fields?
▶ 2:09:24How how can you think about that in terms of having the AI work for us and not just replace those who are creating?
▶ 2:09:34Yeah, I I I I think what we've seen over as this as AI has has become more prevalent is that ultimately can serve as a tremendous tool to um empower and actually turbocharge creators in in what they're working on. And um you know I've talked to um uh people at at at studios that have talked about how how AI is is is helping them you know do their job do their job better and faster and easier.
▶ 2:09:58And I think again it's sort of it it's about striking that balance and and I think we're still in early days where the actual use cases are still being tested out and seeing which ones can make the biggest impact or the biggest help to some of these folks in the industry. Um so my biggest advocacy to everything is um adoption is key. getting a sense of of where these tools can actually help drive sort of the the creative spirit that all of us are excited about in in in kind of the types of of communities that you work with.
▶ 2:10:27Well, do you think that if AIS are training themselves using people's copyrighted materials that and then they're now able to make works like that because of that training that those copyright owners should have some way of sharing in that value.
▶ 2:10:43Um I think there there there are multiple models that have been sort of proposed and analyzed and I I don't the administration has taken taken a a specific position on that that the president in his um speech at the um launch of the AI action plan a year ago did talk about sort of publicly available materials um should be allowed for um the the training of models to the training of models and and that's that's generally um the one area where where we do have an admin position.
▶ 2:11:13Well, I do think that those people have a right then if they're using their materials to then reap the benefits that they should have a way of of being compensated for that because otherwise the AAS would not be successful. Uh so I thank you so much for the dialogue and I do look forward to working with you on
▶ 2:11:28Thank you.
▶ 2:11:30Representative yields back. I'd like to recognize uh Representative Iso of California for five minutes.
▶ 2:11:36Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Director, uh I'm going to stay on AI for a moment. Uh but a little tangental part of it. Uh over the weekend, uh New York Governor Kathy Hogle uh decided that she was going to prohibit and shut down new data centers.
▶ 2:11:55Uh now in a spirit of of talking about AI, it's easy to say well these are large huge ones that serve the purpose of crunching for answering your Siri questions or your other uh AI questions.
▶ 2:12:13But isn't it true that large data centers are the backbone of the research that you look at that is being done around and that in fact the internet was created to support research and that if New York shuts that down are they either a going to be the lites of the past and not do research and shut down their great institutions or are they simply going to poach from other states and expect them to provide that? How do you see that panning out?
▶ 2:12:43Yeah, I I mean the the the president said last week after that announcement that New York's ban on data centers was was terrible. Um and instead of of banning them, states should be leveraging them to improve their their grid resilience and lowering prices. And um you know, I think New York has a has a ve very vibrant uh research ecosystem um in in a wide variety of cities across the state.
▶ 2:13:04And I think it's a it's a shame that um that the compute capacity that a lot of the scientists and technologists that want to do great science over the next few years will be limited in in access to to compute and
▶ 2:13:17Yeah. Perhaps it's a follow up on their banning fracking so they don't have enough natural gas to get clean affordable centers. But staying in that uh that vein, uh I was honored to be at the White House when I saw all of the major uh you know, data center producers, the the the megas pledged to have a net uh production of electricity or greater. In other words, add to the grid, not take away from the grid.
▶ 2:13:45Isn't that essentially what the president was reminding us of when he said that data centers can add to to uh grid
▶ 2:13:54Exactly. I think the president earlier as the campaign was um was talking about how important it was for um to win the AI race to have a lot of these AI companies become even energy producers themselves and ultimately if you um we change the rules to allow for behind the meter energy to these data centers and and you know if it goes as planned what you'll see is you could you'll have sort of excess capacity that can be put into the grid to ultimately lower lower prices. Um, I just have one humorous question.
▶ 2:14:23Uh, putting your science hat on, uh, latency.
▶ 2:14:28If the New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ are in New York and [snorts] they decide they don't want to have large computing and they're going to lower prices by shutting them all down, does that mean that uh, in fact the time delta increases and the gaming of uh, of real stock events would actually increase?
▶ 2:14:49uh you know I'd have to do a little more digging into into some of those latency numbers but uh but you know you you you would hope that um for such um systemically relevant institutions they have the the compute capacity at the appropriate latencies. So following up in one final close on it and not trying to be humorous, but isn't driving down latency one of the keys to all the modern advancements?
▶ 2:15:15And we'll just take for example the autonomous uh vehicle, the autonomous aircraft, enhanced ability to control things in the air. Every bit of that depends on the accuracy of of space location, the speed with which you up refresh.
▶ 2:15:34So anyone who wants to not promote the power necessary to enhance uh localized ability, aren't they inherently giving themselves less safety rather than more?
▶ 2:15:47Yeah, I I think latency is key. I mean the most sort of basic sense you think about it even even sort of sort of cell phone speeds and the and the dramatic change in in what we can do with these technologies once the latency went down. Um I do think from a a technological standpoint what's interesting to see is how much kind of edge computing is going to be happening um in the future. I mean now a lot of the the AI workloads have to be sent back to a data center in order to get the result in.
▶ 2:16:12And I think there's great work being done by a lot of our chip developers to see how it's possible to house some of these models locally. Um so we'll see where the technology pans out. But at at the end for for at the end of the day sort of larger um sort of compute questions are always going to have to go back to to to data centers.
▶ 2:16:29Well, I look forward to Qualcomm Snapdragon having more and more AI in it. As a San Diego, I'm rooting for them to win 6G and that localized AI. And with that, I yield back.
▶ 2:16:41Gentlemen yields. I'd like to recognize uh the representative Meny from Texas. Five minutes.
▶ 2:16:47Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Director, President Trump publicly said that companies wouldn't qualify for CHIPS funding unless they were run by transgender people. My staff has reviewed the law. We've reviewed the relevant contracts, and that requirement does not exist anywhere in the law or in those contracts. Did you advise President Trump that he was wrong before he said that publicly? Yes or no?
▶ 2:17:13I'm not familiar with that,
▶ 2:17:15You're not familiar with the president publicly stating a requirement that before companies can qualify for CHIPS funding that they had to be run by trans
▶ 2:17:26I'm I'm not familiar with
▶ 2:17:27I I see the shock in your face. It's because it's absurd. And so I would advise you to address that with the president. Um you've known for weeks that you were coming to testify before this committee, correct?
▶ 2:17:38Uh I do believe it was scheduled weeks ago. Yes, sir.
▶ 2:17:41Last night at 6 p.m. you released a 100page report entitled Science, a new golden age. Um, our first time becoming familiar as a committee with this report was last night. Is there a reason that you chose to release this the night before you came to testify before the body that authorizes and funds all the agencies that do the work with you all?
▶ 2:18:05Um, no. I think that that report has been given the length as you can imagine that's been uh a labor of love for our office for quite some time and in the moment that we were able to get full clearance and sign off we were very excited to get it out.
▶ 2:18:18Will you commit right now before Congress and before the public that you will come back after we've had time to review and digest this report and testify again before this committee?
▶ 2:18:27I certainly look forward to answering any questions you may have on the Will you commit right now to coming back after we've had time to review and digest this report to testify before
▶ 2:18:36I come to testify all the time. So when I test come again, I will certainly answer any questions you have on the
▶ 2:18:43Let's go back to the president's comments on a trans requirement that didn't exist. The president was spreading misinformation to the public about a 52 billion dollar program that Texas businesses, and I'm from Texas, are eligible for. And while the president was inventing those fake DI requirements, administration officials were behind closed doors renegotiating chips agreements for companies that are connected to the administration.
▶ 2:19:09A lawsuit from Intel shareholders alleged that a commerce department official told Intel that that was not a negotiation and Intel should consider the benefits of having a friend in the administration. That is extortion at best and corruption at worst.
▶ 2:19:26So my question to you is, are you familiar with the Department of Commerce holding a negotiation with a company to get a stake into that company uh while at the same time extorting them and telling them that they should be aware of having a friend in the administration?
▶ 2:19:45No, I'm not familiar with that. Last June, you told CSIS that startups need to be able to innovate in AI without being scared of state laws. A study by the Houston Advanced Research Center found that Texas data centers will use 30 399 billion gallons of water by 2030. Lake Travis in Texas just reached its full capacity for the first time in 70 years.
▶ 2:20:11So that 399 billion gallons of water would be enough to fully deplete that lake. Um, meanwhile, Americans have paid nearly 10% more for electricity in 2025 compared to 2024. So, my question to you is, when a data center near Harris County, which encompasses the Houston area, drains local water supplies and drives up electricity bills from my constituents, what state law are they supposed to use to protect themselves if your administration is preempting those state laws?
▶ 2:20:39Um, as I don't think our administration is preempting any state laws relating to water usage of data
▶ 2:20:46What state laws is the administration preempting related to data centers?
▶ 2:20:50Well, we can't really preempt any of those. I think that's I think there was a big legislative push over the last year and and a lot of discussion around how to make sure that we can generally preempt some AI related state laws to provide um clarity and and ease of access to a lot of AI startups. Um, if there's a patchwork of AI regulations across 50 states, it becomes increasingly challenging for a lot of young entrepreneurs to successfully run AI businesses.
▶ 2:21:17And finding a a legislative pathway that can um allow tailored preeemption that can benefit the American entrepreneur has has been a priority of the White House for some time now.
▶ 2:21:27So, we commit right here publicly to ensuring that we are uh doing the best we can to strengthen and uphold state laws that relate to data centers and water usage and driving up electricity I I would certainly oppose any any rules that drove up electricity prices. Yeah.
▶ 2:21:43And and water usage as well. You you are opposed to any type of federal preeemption that relates to water usage.
▶ 2:21:48I think I'm going to stick with my domain which is science and technology and and I refer you to all of my colleagues who work on on sort of zoning related rules of of data centers, folks at at EPA.
▶ 2:22:00Gentleman's time's expired.
▶ 2:22:01Go [clears throat] back.
▶ 2:22:03Gentleman yields back. I'd like to recognize Representative Herodopoulos from Florida.
▶ 2:22:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, first of all, I want to say it's been a great year for science. I mean, what a year with with the incredible success with NASA, record funding for NASA, over $24 billion in last year's budget, an additional $10 billion. Of course, the Aremis 10 10day mission around the moon for the first time since 1972 and better things to come. 192 launches uh last year.
▶ 2:22:32Uh it's been a banner year for science and we have a $500 billion investment uh in AI, another $92 billion investment in uh in Pennsylvania and and it's I think it's been a banner year and I appreciate all the work you're doing.
▶ 2:22:46we it's really gold science the the highest standard and I could not be more excited about it and I'm I'm I'm I'm almost amused by the historical amnesia that exists sometimes when I when I come to committee uh on January 14th 2025 6 days before President Trump took office the Biden administration pushed the idea that we should have the development of data centers suddenly we don't want more energy in America to make sure we win the AI race let alone the space race.
▶ 2:23:16And so this uh historical amnesia is always interesting to hear in committee and it's much like their historical amnesia on affordability when you have a 9% inflation rate and has come down dramatically. Uh we have we saw interest rates go from less than 3% to 8% and suddenly uh they point the finger at a at a new administration. And so uh uh it's disappointing to see some of those comments. Also, I heard today which was interesting was this idea about um how the EPA or or some of the science funding has been put out there.
▶ 2:23:46In the previous administration, the greenhouse reduction fund was a 27 billion program. 27 billion. That's a lot of money. And they and they banked or put in the banks 20 billion to to make sure that some of their political friends got and that's been well documented now. So, I wish we'd focus on science like you all are doing right now at the White House and make sure that the this oversight that is so necessary is there.
▶ 2:24:13And and and look, I want to win the the AI race and and reality is you need to do it with data centers. And I love the investment we're making. For example, in Pennsylvania, they're maximizing that natural gas that's found in Pennsylvania to maximize it. And so, and we're bringing on this this new technology to make sure we have the energy necessary to win the AI race.
▶ 2:24:32And so, uh, I would just ask you if this, if you don't mind, uh, getting into the these gold standards, uh, science that you talk about, there's nine tenants that you have, could you walk us through, um, what why we need to return to this gold standard as opposed to the political game sometimes people play in committee?
▶ 2:24:53Yeah, I think this is a an obligation I think we have um as stewards of taxpayer dollars to ensure that the money that is going out to science is done so in a way that respects the scientific method and scientific progress. Um there is no scientist in the ecosystem that doesn't believe that their own scientific project should hold up to the standards of gold standard science laid out in that executive order.
▶ 2:25:18Um, and to me I found I I found, you know, the the response to it from uh from the left actually quite quite amusing. To me, I thought this would be a giveaway that was a very bipartisan uh thing that that everyone could agree with. Um, and to me, I think it's it's very telling that um the opposition is there because I think I think they don't actually believe in gold standard science. I think they only they want to find pathways to to fund projects which don't meet that standard.
▶ 2:25:44So, I think we're very excited to to to push this initiative forward and make sure that all of the dollars that go out to to support our scientists around the country u meet that very behind bar.
▶ 2:25:54Yeah. And just to build on what you'd mentioned, I mean, for years is when I grew up, the left always believed in the idea of electric cars. Last week I was in Georgetown, they're protesting in front of Tesla. I I just don't understand that disconnect sometimes. But but that said, I I want to bring up the one one issue that that really uh causes a lot of concerns.
▶ 2:26:12How did a six-month-old nonprofit linked to Stacy Abrams called Power, I'm sorry, Power Forward Communities, with just a $100 in revenue, founded in late 2023, land a $2 billion EPA grant under the pre previous administration. Is this typical? Will you invest $2 billion in a company has a $100 in revenue? Is this typical?
▶ 2:26:37It's very disappointing to see it. Uh, I guess it's not surprising, but it's very sad as as someone that works on these types of projects to to see that someone would do something like that.
▶ 2:26:45Well, I appreciate it. And again, I I like the idea that I actually like the Doge idea because it's how we found so much wasteful spending. It's why we put the the microscope and some of the fraud that we've seen in states like Minnesota and California. And we make sure that the the the dollars are being spent. I mean, when I talked about that $500 billion, that's not federal dollar. That's not taxpayer dollars or that $92 billion. These are private sector investments that benefit everyone.
▶ 2:27:11So, we have the electrical grid uh and the grid resilience necessary to win the AI race. And that's why I'm excited about the chairman's leadership here. We're focusing on science tonight, politics. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield
▶ 2:27:23Gentlemen's time is expired. Thank you very [clears throat] much. And I'd like to recognize uh Representative Foster from Illinois.
▶ 2:27:30Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to our witnesses. Um let's say I maybe I'll start talking about maybe the most important issue you're dealing with which is recursive self-improvement. You know the sort of the balance of opinion seems to be that sometime between maybe the end of this year and a few years from now you're going to have AIs that will be able to make improved versions of themselves that are you know 15% smarter 15% faster every single night.
▶ 2:27:56at which point um you're going to just see this thing take off faster than exponentially. So how big a team do you have uh planning what first off what is your for your internal planning? What is the dates the range of dates you're assuming for recursive self-improvement? What is your plan to deal with this?
▶ 2:28:14Um I think that is uh one of the many topics that we think about as we plan for um the types of policy or or the types of um systems we have in place to ingest pre-eployment models and do reviews of them. Um currently as state in the executive order um two agencies have a role in that. So Casey and
▶ 2:28:36how big a I mean what I'm concerned about is that you know it's a very small group of people that seems to be steering the boat these days and it's small and frankly shrinking a set of people that that you're and and the administration is is looking to and the problem is enormous. You know, in the case of the scientific advisory committees, you in the office of science, they've just thrown out all of the detailed advisory committees with the real experts and have this one Uber committee on which maybe you'll have one expert on all of fusion and this sort of stuff.
▶ 2:29:05You're going on the opposite direction of actually trying to use the accumulated wisdom of the scientific community. But just back to AI, um, you know, I was very concerned. Do you uh we read the information the document the information It's a it's a um sort of it's the Silicon Valley trade rag
▶ 2:29:25of information. I'm familiar with it.
▶ 2:29:27Yeah. Okay. And so you're probably on the news this last actually if I could introduce for the record um there was last weekend um uh they put out an article called uh Trump's AI agenda collides with reality. How staff turnover, turf battles, and clashing views have upended the administration's anti-regulation uh vision. And I urge my members, other members to um actually take a time and and understand this. Um are you familiar with that particular
▶ 2:29:56I'm not. No, sir.
▶ 2:29:56You're not? Okay. Well, if you if you have any reactions to it, I assume it's it's good reporting, but it had some concerning things. You know, it said, for example, that um when you had to react to mythos, which is the the very capable AI that was uh capable of really scary cyber exploits and and finding bugs and codes that everyone thought was safe.
▶ 2:30:20Uh that the lead inside the White House on responding to that was someone whose main credential was that they were the lawyer for the RNC. Is that actually correct? that that that was you know that was how it was organized.
▶ 2:30:35Uh I think we worked as a team to uh ensure that we uh took the appropriate actions after a methos was disclosed to to the US government.
▶ 2:30:46Okay. But it was the well I urge everyone to read that and if you find things that are not correct please let us know because it was it was very concerning. You know, I've I also look at um things like um uh you know, you've you've attempted, you know, initially when the administration came in, they were not nice to NIST, which is, you know, one of the few agencies, one of the only agencies, I guess, NIST and the Federal Reserve that actually retains any international credibility in this in this administration.
▶ 2:31:15And that there were, you know, massive Doge cuts to it that were not useful. And in particular the the center for um AI we used to be um safety now it's security and you know that was um you know basically renamed and and gutted and a lot of a lot of the people left and that's there isn't a more important um agency or subsection of an agency um and then you um you assigned a new leader for that which is good and then within you know 3
▶ 2:31:45months he quit and this you know and this appears to be the pattern over and over again that you you bring into the administration uh someone with plausible credentials to do something and then they either quit or or or leave and and and this is a problem. You know, [clears throat] when I when I look at other members of Congress, you know, we're all very friendly with each other, but you get a very interesting measurement of their of their quality when you look at staff turnover.
▶ 2:32:13That's something I look at very carefully and it's concerning when I see the amount of staff turnover in your AI enterprise in the in the White House because as I said there is not a more important issue uh to deal with. So um I urge you to just you know do the best you can to recruit a broad spectrum of people not not put them through an ideological litmus test because you throw away a lot of good talent and you already have. So thank you and yield back.
▶ 2:32:40Gentleman's time's expired. Thank you. [clears throat] I'll recognize Representative Van Eps, Tennessee.
▶ 2:32:47Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Director Katzios, for being here today. In March 2025, President Trump charted out a clear vision for scientific progress and technological innovation to position America to maintain leadership in emerging technologies like AI, quantum, and nuclear to revitalize American scientific research and ensure that the growth of science and technology stimulate economic growth. Director Katzios and OSTP have delivered by supporting these goals.
▶ 2:33:15The National AI legislative framework provided clear direction on how Congress should act to spur on AI innovation that serves Americans. In an executive order signed by the president last month to accelerate US innovation in quantum technologies to strengthen our national security. One year after executive orders on nuclear energy, we are seeing real real world results. The president's bold goal of three advanced test reactors achieving criticality before the 4th of July was not only met but exceeded by four reactors achieving criticality.
▶ 2:33:46Just yesterday, Director Kratzios published a report establishing a blueprint for renewing American scientific leadership for the 21st century. After the Biden administration floundered to position America for technology leadership and energy dominance, we are seeing tangible results from the Trump administration with OSTP providing critical support. We must maintain the lead across the board when it comes to AI.
▶ 2:34:10Microsoft's AI forgood lab found that DeepS seeks free open- source models have driven AI adoption across the developing world. Recently, the Chinese company Moonshot released a new a new openweight model that performs competitively with American frontier models. US companies are turning toward open- source and openweight models as they are cheaper, customizable, and have and have less guard rails.
▶ 2:34:33Uh just earlier this morning, director your team posted uh that Moonshot AI conducted large-scale covert distillation to develop their newest K3 model. And so a few questions here. How do we balance an open innovation ecosystem while protecting American technology from IP threat? And how is OSTP responding to the threat to American AI leadership posed by Chinese open source and openweight models?
▶ 2:34:59I think there's for starters an important distinction to be made between um open- source models and um largecale uh industrial covert distillation of American models. Um and I think uh what was uh uh made public today was uh exactly that the convert industrial um distillation of of of American technology.
▶ 2:35:27Um the administration deeply believes that um the future of American leadership in AI is contingent upon having a a vibrant open and closed source um set of models for Americans and the world to use. Um I think on the first or second page of the AI action plan the president released last year, we emphasized very strongly that um the US must lead in in open source.
▶ 2:35:53Um, so for us, we're doing everything we can to to kind of push the open source community ahead in the US and um and provide lots of alternatives for all of our entrepreneurs.
▶ 2:36:03Great. Thanks, director. Modern research and AI model training runs on data such as biological databases and materials data. American leadership in these fields depends on the quality and accessibility of that underlying data infrastructure. That's why I introduced the Web of Biological Data Act of 2026, which would establish a single point of entry for researchers to access high-quality biological data for use in research and development.
▶ 2:36:29Director, what what role does access to high-quality data play in America's science and AI ecosystem? And how would a single point of entry for standardized data sets impact the pace of innovation? uh the the access to data is critically important and I think one of um one of the reasons why the Genesis mission was launched to begin with was an understanding that there was a great deal of scientific data available to national labs that if we could leverage that for AI it could pay huge huge dividends.
▶ 2:36:57So, um I'd love to learn more about about your bill and and kind of see if um how we can how we can get something um in in that neighborhood of work work through because I think I think none [snorts] of this stuff works unless you have unless you have the data underlying it uh to train the models.
▶ 2:37:11Great. Thank thanks director. Thanks for your leadership and m Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
▶ 2:37:16Representative yields back. I'd like to recognize Representative Riley from New York for five minutes.
▶ 2:37:22Thank you, Chairman, and uh thanks director for for being here. I think I saw Did I see an interview that you did a year ago that you're a new dad or a relatively new dad? Is that right? Or am
▶ 2:37:31I You're exactly right. My uh my son Odysius turned one on July 3rd.
▶ 2:37:36Congratulations. Thank you.
▶ 2:37:37Um mine are six and three. Are you sleeping at all? Are you guys getting any sleep?
▶ 2:37:41I I'm trying my best. I got to get my rest for
▶ 2:37:44They say sleep when the baby's sleeping. My my three-year-old for the last year uh every single night gets in bed with my wife and me. So, uh sleep when sleep when the baby's sleeping. Um, I raise I I raise that because um I'm I represent a very rural district in upstate New York. And one of the best things about living in the Fingerlakes is you're always out in uh nature. We go hiking through the the waterfalls and the gorges that are there. Uh just last weekend, my wife and I took the kiddos out to do blueberry picking.
▶ 2:38:12The weekend before that it was Maragold uh picking in Trumanburg. Uh and um and the kids are learning to swim uh at Tagonic Park. Um, so those of us who are raising our families in in Tomkins County, we really care a lot about the environment and about protecting it. Um, but what we have happening in our community, there's this big corporation called Terowolf. Uh, you might be familiar with them, big tech corporation. Uh, they used to do Bitcoin mining. Uh, now they're trying to build a data center on the lake.
▶ 2:38:42And, uh, it's a 400 megawatt AI data center where my neighbors and I are are raising our families. And uh they're threatening to clear dozens of acres of uh forest land on the hillside, blast into the bedrock, run PR power transmission lines through the wetlands, uh threatening to increase the soil erosion, which is a big deal uh for our for our farmland. Um they've said that they're not going to use any uh water from the lake. Turns out they're probably going to need hundreds of thousands of gallons a day.
▶ 2:39:11And so, uh, over tens of thousands of folks in Tomkins County have, uh, come together to oppose this project, at least until appropriate protections are in place. And I'm I support them in that effort. I just want to submit for the record a petition that's been signed by over 22,000 people. I'm signing on to this petition as well um to stop that
▶ 2:39:33Objection. Um the other concern and this is what I wanted to raise with you is that these data centers are going to have a huge impact on the NYG bills, the utility bills, uh which are already unaffordable. Um what's happening is nice, our utility monopoly. They keep coming back and asking for rate hikes. They say they need it to improve the grid. Uh but what they're actually doing is sending that money to their corporate overlords in Spain. And I spent a lot of last week on the phone with constituents whose power was out because the wind blew.
▶ 2:40:01And the last thing we need are these big tech corporations coming in building these data centers uh either overwhelming the grid even more or sticking my neighbors uh with the bills. Um do you agree that's a valid concern?
▶ 2:40:16Yeah, I think the administration's been very clear that um the last thing we would ever want to see is for new data center construction to increase the um electricity cost for Americans. Um, the whole idea behind the rateayer protection pledge was to really force these companies to make a very public commitment to the nation, to the world, and the communities that they're that they're claiming they want to support that they won't be raising
▶ 2:40:40prices. Yeah. And so, I came here uh to find common ground across the aisle, get stuff done. Um, I think we both share this concern. I always, you know, try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt. Um, the issue I have with the the uh protection pledge and the EO is that first of all, I think fewer than a dozen corporations have signed on to it. And second, um, it doesn't have teeth to it, at least as I understand it.
▶ 2:41:07And I am not willing to accept a pinky swear from these big corporations that they're going to do the right thing. I think we need enforcable rules, real accountability uh on this uh so that my neighbors who are already really struggling with these utility bills uh don't have to pick up the tab for these massively profitable uh corporations. So, building in some ways on the framework that you and the administration have done with the that rateayer protection pledge, uh I introduced a bipartisan bill across the aisle. It's called the Fair Data Act.
▶ 2:41:37And what it says is any costs associated with these data center projects have to be paid entirely by these big uh big tech corporations that are driving the costs and not by upstate New Yorkers and small businesses. Um, is this something you think we could work on together on a bipartisan basis? I can send it to you. Give me your thoughts and we can try to get this done to protect upstate New Yorkers from increased uh utility bills.
▶ 2:42:00I think we would be very supportive of enshrining into law a rate payer protection pledge. So to the extent we can work together on that, I I would love to. I think this is important and Americans deserve it.
▶ 2:42:08Terrific. I will follow up uh with you on that and um congratulations again on on being a new dad.
▶ 2:42:14Thank you.
▶ 2:42:16And I'll yield back, Mr. Chairman.
▶ 2:42:17Gentleman yields back. Thank you. I'd like to recognize Representative Baird from Indiana. Five minutes.
▶ 2:42:24Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member and Director Cret. We appreciate you being here as well. My question deals with biotechnology. uh you know in 2025 in the action plan the national security commission on emerging biotechnology warned us that China is deeply embedded in our biotechnology supply chains and to that point where we are dangerously reliant on Chinese-based suppliers for chemicals for medicines and pharmaceuticals
▶ 2:42:54so that's why I introduced the bill HR7936 the bioindustrial scale up for supply chains and energy Resiliency Act of 2026, which would direct the development of a network of Department of Energy facilities that innovators can use to prove that their bio uh industrial ideas and research uh can be commercialized and can can be scaled up. So, I guess I'm not asking for support for the bill.
▶ 2:43:23I'm really just trying to lay the groundwork so that I'd like to have your opinion and what you're thinking about incentivizing onshore chemical and bio-industrial manufacturing here in the US and then what federal tools do you see that are most effective in reshoring some of this capacity?
▶ 2:43:41No, I I think this is um it very important. I I served in the in the first Trump administration as well and um was part of of a lot of the efforts relating to the to the co 19 um response. And I think one of the first things or the biggest things that we as a country learned was that um our supply chains for a lot of the the the critical um materials and and products that that Americans need were just not as resilient as as we thought they were.
▶ 2:44:07So, um, to to the extent that, um, I can be helpful, uh, in in in the in the things that you're focused on there, um, I'll do everything I can in my office to to to help make that make that better.
▶ 2:44:19I was interested
▶ 2:44:21I was interested to find out here a year or so ago about China having control of 80 to 90 or 90% of the uh, API, the active pharmaceutical ingredients, which is basis for our medicine. So I I am glad to hear and you know then when you conduct basic research uh and talk about the expense of trying to scale some some idea up.
▶ 2:44:44It's uh it's expensive and so having access to to making sure that process works and to scale it up uh is important. So I'm glad to hear your answer there. One other area that I'm interested in u you know when people think about and we had a lot of conversation here about artificial intelligence but they don't often think about agriculture but one of the most informative and transformative applications is happening right out on the farm and AI powered precision agriculture
▶ 2:45:14is helping farmers supply fertilizer pesticides and water more efficiently while increasing yields at the same time. So, as we compete with countries like China, how should the federal government prioritize AI research and development in agriculture to ensure American farmers remain the most productive and competitive in the
▶ 2:45:33No, it's such a great example and uh and and we believe it is is a priority. I think um today there was actually announcement of a of a $2 million commitment from from USDA on Genesis sort of AI for science related initiatives um from from a so to us I think that's kind of is very important. I think if you if you think about kind of how a lot of these priorities manifest themselves, we want to make sure that individual regions of the country that had expertise in particular industries are the ones that are pursuing these scientific endeavors.
▶ 2:46:02Um so it applies to agriculture, it applies to shipping, it applies to oil and gas, whatever it may be. Um and and for us it's sort of applying this this AI for scientific discovery to particular particular industrial areas. You know, you make a comment there I think is very good because I'm on the egg committee as well, but the science in the science committee is also applicable to agriculture and vice versa. Some of the things we learn in agriculture are very relevant to what we're doing in science.
▶ 2:46:31So, uh, with that, uh, I appreciate your answers very much and I yield back.
▶ 2:46:38Gentleman yields. Uh, I'd like to recognize uh, Representative Mlan Delaney from great state of Maryland.
▶ 2:46:46Uh, thank you to our chair and ranking member and um, I really think this is a very important hearing and so thank you director uh, Katzios for joining us today. Um I represent Maryland's sixth congressional district and we are home to many research agencies like NIST, NIH, National Cancer Institute, Fort Dietrich um but across Maryland including um NASA GDDARD Noah's headquarters and USDA's Beltzville Agricultural Research Center and kudos to my colleague here who is uplifting a research um which isn't sadly being gutted there.
▶ 2:47:16Um this committee has traditionally been a forum for bipartisanship. Just yesterday we um favorably reported out four bills including my scale biology act about bio uh bio uh metrology and it would I really think it's been amazing that we on this committee on a historical basis have worked together on difficult issues to advance US innovation um competitiveness and leadership on the global stage.
▶ 2:47:41However, I was very disappointed that your report was released less than 24 hours ahead of this hearing because I think that threatens our bipartisan progress that we make here. Our agencies, civil servants, researchers, and companies cannot thrive in an environment where it's ever changing and the rules and administration policies are unclear. We need a steady hand at the wheel.
▶ 2:48:04American scientific leadership has been built on the backs of our university researchers and our expert research agencies and our ecosystem of federally supported fundamental research has resulted in groundbreaking technologies, products and a lot of companies along our I270 corridor. Federally supported research has driven economic development and improved the lives of people globally. You know this, that's why you're here.
▶ 2:48:30Your report calls on agencies to refocus on the individual scientist, putting the working researcher at the back and center of American scientific enterprise. However, when coupled with the administration's massive proposed cuts to our research agencies and OM's proposed changes to the uniform guidance, your report represents a massive threat to the ecosystem that has built our modern age.
▶ 2:48:57And this administration calls for a golden age of science, but it's been gutting the programs, regulations, institutions that have been the biggest advances in science and technology. We must ensure that grants are are awarded in a nonpartisan expert peer review without any influence from political appointees or third parties seeking to influence the process for gain.
▶ 2:49:21Individual researchers cannot carry the burden of facilities and equipment costs and the federal government doesn't carry all those expenses. Universities, and I know this because I've served on several boards, step in to fill gaps with shared resources that support multiple projects simultaneously. We cannot operate in silos and innovate in silos. And our universities are brain trusts where researchers cross collaborate, discuss challenges, and make new decisions togethers.
▶ 2:49:50and often they need it with private philanthropy. So, director, I am really curious how will deprioritizing funding for our research institutions, agencies, and universities unlock a golden age because this is a little chaotic. And when it comes to funding to the oversight of the NSF, is OSTP reviewing and editing NOFOs for programs that support individual researchers and projects? And if so, what is the criteria?
▶ 2:50:20I think on your your main question about how how we think about revitalizing the the science and technology ecosystem, I think I think the one thing that you know hasn't really been mentioned enough um that I think bears you know bears mention is that you know our ability to make transformational breakthroughs um here in the United States has slowed over the years. um the the the breakthrough rates that our scientific enterprise is accomplishing um are slower than they've ever been.
▶ 2:50:49I think they're very obvious examples. We're flying slower than we were
▶ 2:50:53heads on the sectors. I think
▶ 2:50:54it it it does. I agree. But I think, you know, even in areas where we've we've spent a tremendous amount of money, particularly in sort of the life sciences, the amount of money that it takes now to produce a new drug that can impact an American versus how it was 20 or 30 years ago, um is dramatically higher. So we need far more inputs in order to get the same outputs. These are all signs that um maybe we should be trying other things. Maybe we should be testing other ways to make breakthroughs than what we've been doing for so many years.
▶ 2:51:23And that is what new golden age tries to discuss and I think
▶ 2:51:27but very rapidly in a way in which is very difficult to do um and gutting in a very rapid way as opposed to a transitional way. I think what what we're trying to do here is start laying the groundwork for new methods of doing science and figuring out which ones can produce the greatest output for the American scientific community. And to me, I'm excited about to test some of these ideas, see what works, see what doesn't.
▶ 2:51:50But broadly speaking, just doing the status quo the same and having arguments over how much money you put into a system that's just doing the same thing, I don't think is how we're going to achieve the breakthroughs that we would like. So, I have several more questions. I'll submit them for the record, but I still would like to know about the OSTP's role. Gentleoman's time. I yield back.
▶ 2:52:10Thank you. Uh, I'd like to recognize gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Fleman.
▶ 2:52:15Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Director Katzios. Thank you for your service in Trump 45 and of course your great role right now. Um, I was not here earlier, so I didn't get to hear all of your comments. My day job is I'm chairman of the Endrogen Water Subcommittee of Appropriations. Uh that obviously is my heart. We've been on a full appropriations committee this morning.
▶ 2:52:38Um we fund the office of science and and let me just say this to you, to the administration, to Secretary Wright Danley and his whole team. Thank you for your commitment to science. It has been really inspirational. Uh, I see America leading again in so many different ways.
▶ 2:52:59So, I want to start with what sounds like a softball question, but uh, I want to get your thoughts about our great office of science under the Department of Energy, what we're doing, how we're doing it, and how critically important those funds as we as appropriators or as authorizers vote on these measures. I I think the office of science is one of the most important um uh hubs for scientific innovation in the federal government that exists.
▶ 2:53:27Uh to me what what makes me so excited about Department of Energy right now is from the secretary to the deputy to under secretary Gil you have a team that is committed in a way that I don't think has existed at DOE in decades in pushing the envelope in the way that that office can be used to drive scientific discovery and Genesis mission is front and center in that and the president laid out a bold vision in creating a whole of government effort to accelerate scientific discover discovery
▶ 2:53:57using AI when he signed the Genesis mission executive order and I think we have a tremendous opportunity to fund the Genesis mission in the next budget cycle and to start actually growing that program into what it deserves. Um, I totally agree with you and and I thank you again for your commitment. Uh, to go a little further. Uh, our national labs in my view are national treasure. There's 17. I have a strong bias in favor of the Oakidge National Lab. Uh, it is truly phenomenal.
▶ 2:54:27Everything a national lab does, OL does and they partner with the others. So, but they're all excellent. Having said that, could you talk a little bit about how important that is or they are as an institution in terms of our competitiveness especially globally?
▶ 2:54:46Oh, it it's huge. I mean, just a few months ago, I was at um Idaho National Lab to see the work that they were doing on on SMRs. And um there's a reason why we dominate the world and lead in some of these domains because we have the facilities, the intellectual capital and the institutions that can partner with industry and entrepreneurs to make these breakthroughs happen at a pace which no one could even imagine.
▶ 2:55:11Um you know every country in the world that attempts to even come close to what we're doing in our science enterprise uses the labs as a model. the first thing they do is try to build a national lab and they model it after one of ours. Um, and I think it's so special from the the nuclear work that's being done at Idaho to all of the supercomputing at places like Oakidge and Liverour. Um, it's truly truly special.
▶ 2:55:32Thank you. And I will close by saying this is I've always believed in being very honest and transparent. I'm a big fan of the presidents and have been uh but please convey this back. The executive orders that President Trump has signed in my view and I'd like your thoughts have really given us a great structure whether it's with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in scientific endeavors in nuclear it's given us a framework from which to work so that the administration can work handinhand
▶ 2:56:03with Congress and the American people. Your
▶ 2:56:06You're you're totally right. Right. I think I think what um we grapple with with an office and to be honest I think that's why this office was even created or put in statute was because a lot of the science and technology priorities or policy actions are multi- agency by definition. If you want to create a new American civil nuclear renaissance it's just not one agency that needs to work on it. You have to get NRC doing the right thing. You have to get you know department of energy of doing the right thing. You have to get EPA aligned with their permits and whatnot.
▶ 2:56:35So I think what these executive boards are able to do is to essentially corral multiple agencies to work together to drive an important national mission and I think we're executing quite impressively.
▶ 2:56:44Thank you. I appreciate everything you're doing and I yield back.
▶ 2:56:48Gentleman yields back. I'd like to recognize uh Mr. Gallagher. Five minutes from California.
▶ 2:56:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um maybe following up on uh Congressman Bar's questioning on and with regard to agriculture, I represent a you know very large agricultural district and and uh you know the the technology that we now have uh and that is being brought to bear uh with AI um we think is very promising. Uh and as I understand it, you know, NSF is partnering with the USDA.
▶ 2:57:21I think you mentioned that um to set up AI coordination hubs in every state uh reaching farmers and ranchers through the land grant and the cooperative extension uh system. So couple questions there you know one is you know what's the role in the federal research uh in making these tools even more accurate you know so that we can you know irrigate better we can make sure that we're not wasting water for for instance um and then um how can we get these tools you know better into the hands of of farmers
▶ 2:57:51and ranchers. Yeah, I think I think one setting out those those that R&D roadmap for um for some of these these AI applications uh by by the ad community is is a big priority for USDA and we look forward to working with them with them on that. I do think some of these some of these programs that you mentioned where NSF is is able to establish these relationships in every state, those are the types of places where you can actually, you know, connect directly with those with um with those farmers and get and get those tools out out into the field.
▶ 2:58:21So yeah, just working directly with the with the UC cooperatives and and others. Is that is that kind of the best?
▶ 2:58:28Yeah, I I think so. I think you have to try to find and you probably know the community far better than I do. You have to find places on the ground where the community you're trying to target already is is going to and and try to integrate some of these some of these technologies into there. And then on the issue of wildfire, um, uh, NS, NIST, uh, the National Institute of Standards and Technology Fire Research Division conducted the definitive investigation of the 2018 campfire, which occurred in my district in in B County, California.
▶ 2:58:58Uh, this is the fire that destroyed the the town of Paradise uh, and killed 85 people. Uh NIST then turned it into their escape guidance uh that emergency managers and first responders now use for evacuation planning.
▶ 2:59:12Uh NSF funds uh wildfire work on the other end of the problem, predicting where a fire will spread from camera, weather, and terrain data. Uh so my question to you is how how is the administration supporting technological improvements in detection and fire spread prediction uh modeling or uh real time monitoring that would buy communities like mine more time you know in the event of a catastrophic wildfire.
▶ 2:59:39Yeah. I mean I think I remember we started working on this problem in the in the first Trump administration of trying to think about the ways that AI could be used for better fire prediction. one determining where it's most likely a fire could potentially happen. And I think the second is as quickly and as real time as possible be able to predict using weather data and other data where a fire will go once it started um to be able to make sure that that firefighters and the relevant folks are dispatched to the right areas.
▶ 3:00:05Um this has kind of been uh actually hosted kind of a a whole of government meeting at the White House to discuss this and it showed kind of back to an answer I gave to the previous question of of how multi- agency it is. You know, there's a ton of data that the Department of Interior has to kind of help with this stuff. There's research funds that come out of NSF and other relevant agencies and and I think we're going to continue to to work on it. And any thoughts that you have or places that we could be doing better?
▶ 3:00:28I would love your advice because I do think this is a this is an area where I think with with the appropriate um emphasis and and use of AI, we can we can make a big impact. Yeah, I definitely would uh like to work with you and I may get your your contact information after this and uh and we'll definitely stay in touch.
▶ 3:00:44I think on both of these areas where in agriculture and in wildfire are areas where you know using the latest technology and the promise of AI and other technologies um you know can be really helpful uh to rural communities like mine um you know that you know one are trying to you know uh in a time of high cost um you know uh and use that real-time data to lower their overall costs right uh input costs and then also on the wildfire front to really
▶ 3:01:14get on top of that and be in front of that issue. Biggest thing we need to do right now is reduce fuel loads uh in our forested lands and that's another area that that we're working on. But certainly would love to work with the administration on utilizing uh this technology and then maybe I will just you know add to uh uh you know some of the previous questioning. I think diversifying our energy portfolio and nuclear I think is one of those uh you know geothermal I think is another one uh that will lead to more affordable energy.
▶ 3:01:44Another you know big problem that you I think you've heard a lot today is communities are having their their electricity prices go up and up and up and again that's where technology and new uh you know new energy sources I think can play a big role in lowering those costs uh for our constituents. Thank you. Gentleman's time's expired [clears throat] and I think this is going to conclude uh our hearing and I want to thank you Director Cratzios [clears throat] for being here today and your valuable testimony.
▶ 3:02:14I wish you a very very good fortune and good luck with your one-year-old. Uh I have 17 grandkids. We raised five of our own and so I can appreciate what you and uh some of the other folks here with young children have. want to thank the witness for your valuable testimony. The record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments uh with written questions from members if you have them.
▶ 3:02:38And I'm looking very much forward to a uh a true gold standard and gold uh golden age of science. Let's let's put it like that. Thank you for your service.
▶ 3:02:51Thank you, sir.
▶ 3:02:52We are adjourned.