▶ 0:16:24The chair recognizes himself for an opening statement. Uh, good afternoon and welcome to today's hearing. We are here to consider several bills that address important issues facing our nation's communications ecosystem. These range from securing our networks, from foreign threats and robocalls, to improving how we connect our rural constituents. We all know the frustration of receiving unwanted robocalls. Americans received an estimated 4.3 billion robocalls last month alone.
▶ 0:16:52Although some of these calls are legal. Calls that the recipient has consented to receiving, such as from a school or pharmacy. Illegal robocalls continue to be a problem. In fact, fraud perpetrated against americans by illegal robocalls costs an average of $22 billion annually, primarily affecting those who cannot afford such losses.
▶ 0:17:16Additionally, fraudulent robocalls make us distrustful of legitimate callers, causing us to ignore calls from unknown numbers and often miss important calls. Congress has taken steps to address this problem. In 2019, we enacted the john thune traced act. This law took important steps to reduce illegal robocalls by requiring providers to implement call authentication.
▶ 0:17:40Increased fines for intentional violations of the telephone consumer protection act, authorized traceback efforts, and established a federal interagency working group to combat illegal robocalls. The fcc has also taken important steps to reduce illegal robocalls, both in implementing the traced act and by working to block these calls from reaching our networks in the first place. Unfortunately, however, more still needs to be done.
▶ 0:18:04Bad actors continue to develop new ways to enter our networks, and many of these culprits are based abroad, making them hard to track down. One of the bills we're considering today will improve our efforts to identify and catch these foreign bad actors, and make it harder for their calls to enter our networks. These are meaningful steps. I want to make clear that I'm well aware of the difficulties that congress and the federal government face when trying to address this problem.
▶ 0:18:32Fraudsters do not allow do not follow the law, and we must be mindful of imposing new requirements that will only burden legitimate callers while doing nothing to reduce illegal calls that harm us. We're also considering legislation to improve our efforts to connect our unserved and underserved rural constituents. Closing the digital divide has long been a priority for this congress, but our efforts to accomplish this goal has created a web of overlapping and duplicative programs.
▶ 0:19:00In 2022, the government accountability office found that the federal government runs over 130 broadband programs across 15 different agencies. This fragmented approach has led to overbuilding and waste, not to mention confusion caused by conflicting requirements and obligations. Gao has recommended a government wide strategy to better coordinate and align these programs, and I am pleased we're considering legislation to do that.
▶ 0:19:26One helpful development in our efforts to deploy broadband is the fcc's broadband map. Although not perfect, this map has significantly improved our ability to identify who has broadband and who does not. We can improve this map, and today we're considering a bill that will help us identify agricultural areas so we can ensure farmers have the connectivity they need for things like precision agriculture and other modern technologies. I know full well the immense importance of connecting unserved americans.
▶ 0:19:57I'm a proud member of the bipartisan, bicameral universal service fund working group, and I'm continuing to work with this group on reforms to ensure the usf is sustainable for future generations. Usf is an important tool in our efforts to ensure universal connectivity, and I hope we can reach an agreement very soon. As we continue to deploy and upgrade communications infrastructure nationwide, we need the most advanced technology to ensure their efficient, resilient and secure.
▶ 0:20:28To accomplish this, we can turn to our favorite buzzword artificial intelligence ai. At a time when threats to our network are an all time high, ai is a crucial tool to fight fire with fire and ensure one of our most critical systems is protected. Although ai is already deployed throughout our networks in certain capacities, we can always benefit from a greater understanding of how it can be implemented to maximize security.
▶ 0:20:53We have a lot of talk to talk about today, so thank you to our witnesses for being here. Um, I look forward to this discussion. And I now recognize the ranking member, the gentlelady from california, for her opening statement. Speaker 2: thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I'm glad we're holding this hearing to address two basic needs affordable broadband for every american and secure networks people can trust.
▶ 0:21:17Reliable communications connect students to classrooms, patients to healthcare and communities, to life saving emergency services. In the sacramento region, we see both the promise of connectivity and the consequences when it falls short.
▶ 0:21:31The family can live only 20 minutes from downtown sacramento and still lack the connection needed for work, telehealth and online learning, and for families in the california delta, broadband is also essential for monitoring irrigation, tracking, changing weather, and getting crops to market. That's why accurate data matters. We cannot connect the right places when our maps fail to show where service is actually needed.
▶ 0:21:57It's great that we're looking at ways to improve our broadband maps and provide a clearer picture of connectivity across agricultural areas, but infrastructure alone will not close the digital divide. A connection does little good when a family cannot afford service or lacks a device or skills to use it. That's why I co-lead the bipartisan, bicameral universal service fund working group with chairman hudson.
▶ 0:22:24We are working to preserve and modernize the programs that connect rural communities, schools, libraries, health care providers, and low income families. It is also why I introduced the digital opportunity foundation act. This legislation will bring public and private partners together to expand digital skills, device access and broadband adoption.
▶ 0:22:47We must ensure the infrastructure we build actually improves lives, and that every person has the skills and tools to make full use of it. We must also secure these networks communications network, connect sacramento's hospitals, utilities, schools and businesses. The cyber attack can interrupt medical care, classroom instruction, electricity and emergency response.
▶ 0:23:15I've long worked to protect our communications networks from untrusted equipment and support more secure technology made here at home. I've also pushed to strengthen cybersecurity protections for our schools and libraries. That effort helped build momentum for the fcc's $200 million cybersecurity pilot program. But our schools and libraries need sustained support to protect their networks and the people who depend on them.
▶ 0:23:44That's why I'll keep fighting to secure long term funding, including through the universal service fund. The bills before us also take important steps, such as studying how ai can help identify malware and cyber threats and real time. But ai can also create new security risks. We need strong guardrails for both open source and proprietary ai models, especially when they are used in our communications network and other critical systems.
▶ 0:24:16That means rigorous testing, strong cybersecurity standards, transparency, and clear accountability when systems fail or are misused. Finally, we need stronger protection from scams. Last year, americans lost $3.5 billion to imposter scams.
▶ 0:24:34This includes scams that lure consumers through text and phone, and ai now allows criminals to clone a loved one's voice, impersonate a government official, or create a convincing false emergency. The bills we are considering at this hearing takes important steps toward protecting consumers from illegal robocalls, but we have more work to do.
▶ 0:24:56That is why I'm working on legislation to prohibit fraudulent ai impersonations and improve coordination among enforcement agencies. Scammers should not escape accountability because they're exploiting new technologies and targeting our most vulnerable communities. I look forward to working with my colleagues to strengthen the bills before us today, and keep every community connected and secure. And with that, Mr. chairman, I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you.
▶ 0:25:23And before I recognize the chairman of the full committee, just for the record, during the ranking members remarks, I received a robocall and it said, hi, my name is reginald, and I'm giving you a call about your installment loan application. I want to reach out personally because you've been pre-approved for $45,000, blah, blah, blah. Just pretty timely. The chair now recognizes the chairman of the full committee, Mr. guthrie, for five minutes for your opening statement. Speaker 3: thank you, thank you. You're pre-approved for 45,000.
▶ 0:25:55That's good. So good afternoon. And I thank chairman hudson. I appreciate you for holding this legislative hearing on these very important topics, securing our communications system from bad actors has been a longstanding and bipartisan priority for this committee. Ranking member pallone, then chairman walden, representative matsui and I led this committee's effort to rip and replace untrusted vendor equipment from our mobile networks by passing the secure and trusted communications network act in 2019.
▶ 0:26:22Since then, this committee has worked to ban chinese manufactured drones by passing the countering ccp drones act. Just last year, we passed representative ladas routers act to examine the threat of routers made in or by countries of concern, including china. That said, we remain vigilant to threats posed by adversaries like china and are committed to protecting our critical infrastructure and safeguarding americans data.
▶ 0:26:51Recent reports of a china linked plot to cripple new york's communications networks serve as a stark reminder that these threats are real and ongoing, and shows the lengths to which our adversaries will go to undermine our interests and threaten our homeland. Given those risks, any legislation effort to amend the covered list administered by the fcc warrants careful consideration by the committee.
▶ 0:27:15That's why today, we'll be considering the guard act legislation that would add humanoid and quadruped robots linked with certain ccp linked robotics companies to the covered list. I appreciate the work of the sponsors of the bill and the opportunity to examine this threat today to better understand why americans should be concerned about humanoid and quadruped robots from adversaries.
▶ 0:27:39We will also spend time learning about other attack vectors from adversaries such as malicious illegal robocalls that are fraudulently attacking americans. I don't know if yours is fraud. You might be able to afford a $45,000 loan. I'm not sure. Uh, but tacky. But it's it's interesting that happened right as we're sitting here, isn't it? And finally, legislation to ensure that federal broadband dollars are going to areas most in need. Yeah, I get the ones. Kentucky doesn't have a dmv.
▶ 0:28:07We call ours the transportation cabinet. So we just call the transportation. So I keep getting the kentucky dmv needs you to call and give your money for tolls you haven't paid. And one, we don't have hardly any toll roads. And second of all, we don't have a dmv. But anyway, hopefully whoever's sending me that doesn't figure out we don't have a dmv because I know it's wrong and I don't know any tolls. So but so that's we're all affected and we and we hear, I hear about this as much as anything from constituents back home.
▶ 0:28:35I went to visit a friend of mine who I knew from early days in politics, who's now 87. And as we sit and talk for an hour, he has a home line. I bet he answered at least 6 or 7 phone calls in an hour that were spam. So we need to deal with this, and I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you. And chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey, the ranking member of the full committee, for five minutes for his opening statement. Speaker 4: thank you, chairman hudson.
▶ 0:29:00And today we are examining legislation across a number of important areas within the subcommittee's jurisdiction. Network security continues to be a top priority for me and the subcommittee, and we must stay on top of new and emerging threats that use increasingly sophisticated capabilities to compromise critical infrastructure.
▶ 0:29:18We've watched closely as advancements in the tech space, like ai powered coding and other recent innovations, have significantly reduced the time and labor costs for network engineering and coding tasks.
▶ 0:29:30Positive applications would be difficult to quantify, but it's clear that widely available ai tools are empowering individuals to build out applications, systems, and even entire business virtually overnight without the need for huge upfront capital investments and fewer barriers to entry for startups and small businesses could or should open the door to more competition and choice for consumers.
▶ 0:29:54But using history as a guide, we know that each innovation or new capability that helps the good guys is also a tool that can be used by bad actors for nefarious purposes, whether it's cyber criminals working alone or teams of military or civilian personnel supported by adversarial nations, our enemies can use the same capabilities to more efficiently breach and sabotage american networks. We have to ensure that our network defenses stay ahead of the curve.
▶ 0:30:23With that in mind, I look forward to today's discussion of the ai for secure networks act, led by representatives menendez and pfluger, and to hear more about the ways we can proactively employ ai to better defend our communications networks from bad actors. I'm also interested to hear from witnesses about how the guard act, led by representatives mcclellan and molinaro, can apply the framework of my secure and trusted communications networks act to the rapidly growing market for humanoid and other robotics.
▶ 0:30:53Now is the time to act to prevent untrusted suppliers with ties to our adversaries from flooding the us market with robotics and other advanced technology and services. There's also plenty of work to be done to address the incessant robocalls and phone scams that still plague consumers on a daily basis. Despite all of our work on this issue in the past, at best, robocalls and scams are a nuisance at worst.
▶ 0:31:18If executed successfully, they can upend people's lives and cost thousands of dollars that are seldom recovered from bad actors who seek out and prey on seniors, especially in spite of bipartisan efforts by congress, the federal communications commission and the federal trade commission both worked with carriers to weed out scam calls.
▶ 0:31:38But my constituents continue to raise this issue as one in need of our continued attention, and I hope today's discussion can shed light on what obstacles are still preventing regulators and law enforcement from stopping or reducing robocalls, and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about how legislation like the quiet act and the foreign robocall elimination act can help in these efforts.
▶ 0:32:02We'll also consider two pieces of legislation that aim to build on the subcommittee's work to deploy broadband infrastructure across the country, so that every american can access affordable and reliable high speed internet service.
▶ 0:32:15In particular, I hope to hear our witnesses perspectives on how the plan for broadband act, led by representatives peters and walberg, and the data bridge act, led by representatives kelly soho, I mean soto and haochen can improve how we manage, track and carry out federal broadband deployment initiatives as efficiently as possible. So a lot to discuss, mister chairman. I yield back the balance of my time. Speaker 1: I thank the gentleman.
▶ 0:32:45I was distracted because reginald called again during your report, and apparently I've been approved for another $45,000 loan. So this is this is amazing. This is incredible. I mean, this is not that unusual, but I've gotten two robocalls since we've started this hearing. Uh, yeah. Mr. allen wants to know what the interest rate is. Um, listen, we've now concluded with member opening statements. The chair reminds members that pursuant to the committee rules, all members opening statements will be made part of the record.
▶ 0:33:11Uh, we'd like to thank our witnesses for being here today, uh, to testify before this subcommittee. Uh, our witnesses will have five minutes to provide an opening statement, which will be followed by a round of questions from our members. Uh, the witnesses here before us today are michael robbins, president and ceo of the association for uncrewed vehicle systems international. Thank you. Um, kevin ruby, partner with wiley. Ryan, thank you for being here.
▶ 0:33:38Uh, andrew vaughn, director, physical infrastructure, government accountability office thank you. And lindsay gorman, former senior policy advisor for technology strategy in the biden white house. Thank you for being here with us. Uh, Mr. robbins, you are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. Speaker 5: thank you, chairman hudson and ranking member matsui and distinguished members of the committee. It is an honor to be with you today. I am michael robbins, president and ceo of auvsi.
▶ 0:34:04We are the trade association for the autonomy, robotics and drones industry. Our members are at the leading edge of transformation where artificial intelligence, robotics and autonomy are converging to create a new frontier of cyber physical systems. Before I turn to the guard act, a brief personal word because this hearing is very special for me. We are meeting in the john d dingell room.
▶ 0:34:29I went to work for the late john dingell in 2002, when I was just 19 years old, and from 2006 through 2011, I had the privilege of serving as his chief of staff. He was my boss, my mentor, and my friend. And much of what I know about serving the public, including my commission in the united states navy, I learned from him. Uh, with me today is my son. I like this room. He is named in the congressman's honor. Uh, referencing chairman dingell's family nickname of jack.
▶ 0:34:57Chairman dingell used the jurisdiction of this committee to defend american workers and consumers and to keep our industrial strength equal to our security. And that is the argument I bring with you today. Avci stands in strong support of the guard act, and our backing is informed by history and lessons from previous policy failures in the drone industry. Drone technology was invented in america. The scaling, however, took place in china over a decade.
▶ 0:35:23Prc manufacturers came to dominate american skies. The prc, the people's republic of china leveraged massive state subsidies, ip theft, and deliberate market dumping to drive many american drone manufacturers out of business or keeping their market share small. By flooding the global market with artificially cheap systems that was market share engineered in beijing, not fairly earned in the market, and this also injected considerable national security risks into the united states.
▶ 0:35:53A chinese drone is a flying sensor built by companies that the prc can compel to share data that is collected back with the prc. And that is why cisa and the fbi have warned that chinese drones put american critical infrastructure at risk.
▶ 0:36:07By the time congress took action to address the risk and and the market imbalance, many american operators had built their operations around a single foreign supplier, and therefore, every policy option was costly and often faced with fierce opposition from those who had become dependent on chinese technology. Nevertheless, we appreciate the courage of this committee for moving forward.
▶ 0:36:29The cost of restricting an adversary's technology is a function of its installed base, and the installed base only grows as the prc executes on its deliberate strategy to subsidize its companies and dump its products into the united states to create strategic dependance. Accordingly, every year of delay on robotics turns an easier decision into an expensive and more complex one. Because the same prc playbook used for drones is now armed. Now aimed at robotics, the humanoid and quadruped market is still relatively new.
▶ 0:36:58Only a few tens of thousands of units shipped worldwide last year, but the capture dynamics are already visible. Chinese firms already account for roughly 90% of the global humanoid shipments, and our research universities, where american robots once led labs have shifted to subsidized, artificially low cost chinese systems in just the last 12 to 18 months in public safety, police departments are adopting chinese robot dogs in the same pattern that entrenched chinese drones over the last decade.
▶ 0:37:28And like with drones, this is not merely an economic contest. It's also a national security one. A compromised laptop can expose data, compromised robot can expose data and also move, surveil and act physically inside a factory or a hospital or a power plant or on a military base. And like with drones, under china's national intelligence law, the companies that build these systems can be compelled to serve state intelligence in secret. Every such system is therefore a trojan horse on american soil.
▶ 0:37:57The guard act meets the moment because it is action. While the installed base robotics is still small, it protects our nato and non major non major non-nato allies. It covers finished systems and their software, not the components of american manufacturer sourced globally. And it pairs a security review with a deadline that has consequences. Auvsi supports the guard act because it is important to note that avci supports the guard act, but it is important to note that it is just one half of a two pronged strategy.
▶ 0:38:27It's the defense restrictions. By time, they do not win the entire competition. The other half is offense. A national robotics strategy. Like congressman obernolte has introduced secure supply chains for critical inputs like rare earth magnets, investment into U.S. research and manufacturing, and federal demand for trusted systems. We must protect and we must promote. Chairman dingell spent his career getting ahead of problems, so the families he represented would not pay for washington's delay.
▶ 0:38:53When chinese drones first arrived, no one warned this committee where it would end because it had not yet happened. This time with robotics, we can see it coming and we can act while it's still inexpensive to do so. For my son's generation and for the american workers and companies who will build these machines, I hope we will. Abc urges you to advance the guard act. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. ruby. You're recognized for five minutes for an opening statement. Speaker 6: chairman hudson, vice chairman allen, ranking member. Matsui, chairman guthrie, ranking member.
▶ 0:39:24Pallone, members of the subcommittee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is kevin ruby, and I am a partner in the telecommunications, media and technology practice at wiley rein llp, and I'm here today. My own personal capacity. All views expressed in this testimony are my own.
▶ 0:39:46I have worked to combat illegal robocalls and fraud since 2012, including helping establish and oversee the industry. Traceback group, which has been the fcc's designated traceback consortium since july 2020.
▶ 0:40:02I also serve on the board of the communications fraud control association and represent clients and efforts to combat illegal robocalls and brand impersonation scams. I share the subcommittee's concerns about illegal robocalls, consumer fraud, including illegal robocall schemes, is no longer dominated by opportunistic scam artists.
▶ 0:40:33Increasingly, it is carried out by sophisticated criminal enterprises, including transnational criminal organizations, drug cartels and hostile foreign actors operating at industrial scale. As such, this issue raises serious consumer protection and national security concerns, which is why the subcommittee is right to focus on it. I would like to make three points today.
▶ 0:41:01First, enforcement works, especially when it is powered by sophisticated tools, including traceback, federal, state, and private civil enforcement actions demonstrated real success in disrupting fraudulent schemes. Building on these successes, the government should prioritize targeted and meaningful enforcement actions.
▶ 0:41:27As scams become increasingly tied to sophisticated criminal enterprises, federal agencies should fully deploy their criminal enforcement authorities to combat this rumor, protection and national security threat, according to a recent gallup survey, americans lost an estimated $68 billion to scams in 2025 alone across multiple channels, a level of consumer harm that demands an
▶ 0:41:58Equally aggressive criminal enforcement response. Second, because fraud is highly dynamic, industry needs flexible frameworks to adapt to evolving threats and respond in real time. Fraud is most effective, fraud prevention is most effective when government and industry play to their strengths. Government sets the general rules of the road while industry responds quickly to emerging threats.
▶ 0:42:26Accordingly, policy frameworks should preserve the flexibility necessary for industry to innovate and respond as threats evolve. To this end, I urge congress not to look to complicated compliance frameworks like the tcpa as a solution to the illegal robocall problem.
▶ 0:42:48The tcpa is an incredibly complex statute already, and its core purpose is to establish compliance guidelines for legitimate callers. Additional compliance mandates will primarily burden legitimate callers, not the scammers who routinely disregard the rules.
▶ 0:43:07I encourage congress to focus on legislation aimed directly at fraudsters and criminal enterprises, rather than retrofitting a compliance statute that bad actors will simply ignore. Third, to keep pressure on illegal robocallers, industry and government must strengthen collaboration and information sharing. Fraudsters regularly collaborate across sectors. Defenders should too.
▶ 0:43:37This collaboration is already occurring on multiple fronts and is having meaningful results, information sharing and coordinated action across telecom, financial, technology and government sectors can accelerate threat detection, disrupt fraud and better protect consumers from increasingly sophisticated fraud schemes. No single sector can combat fraud alone.
▶ 0:44:03Staying ahead of evolving threats requires sustained information sharing and coordinated action. I look forward to discussing these issues with you today. Speaker 1: thank you, Mr. vaughn. You are recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. Speaker 7: chairman hudson, vice chairman allen, ranking member matsui, and members of the subcommittee.
▶ 0:44:24I'm pleased to be here today to discuss our work on federal broadband efforts as the committee considers potential legislation expanding and improving access to broadband across the country has been a vexing and time consuming task. Questions about where to build, which technologies to support, and at what cost to the taxpayer and price point for the consumer have proven difficult to answer.
▶ 0:44:46Even then, other challenges have presented themselves, including difficulties in interagency coordination, collecting accurate data for mapping and ensuring the viability of the networks we are investing in, among other things, in response to these many challenges, the plan for broadband act being discussed today directs the development of a national broadband strategy that focuses on improving interagency coordination, reducing administrative barriers and ensuring funding is used efficiently and responsibly.
▶ 0:45:10In may of 2022, we recommended the executive office of the president develop and implement a national broadband strategy to help agencies manage existing fragmentation and overlap. Of the hundreds of broadband programs we identified, focus federal efforts on a common goal and mitigate the risk of potentially wasteful, duplicative efforts.
▶ 0:45:29At that time, congress had created several new broadband programs and increased funding for others in response to the pandemic, which had underscored the importance of access to broadband. Ultimately, for agencies, fcc, ntia and the departments of agriculture and treasury administered the bulk of broadband funding and have been executing programs to deploy and support broadband.
▶ 0:45:53Fast forward to today, and we are at a moment where ntia bead program, the largest broadband deployment program, is starting to roll out funding to states and territories, with the aim of connecting every remaining location in the country. At the same time, the dozen or so other broadband deployment programs administered by these agencies are all in the middle of building out their projects as well. The question for a national strategy today may be more about what comes next. As we approach universal access over the next several years, with or without a strategy.
▶ 0:46:23Having many overlapping programs creates the necessity for federal agencies to effectively collaborate, to ensure they avoid unnecessary duplication and meet the needs of unserved and underserved communities. In april 2025, we reported that while the agencies have some processes in place, opportunities exist to improve their efforts.
▶ 0:46:40For example, clearly defining, agreeing upon and documenting each agency's responsibilities related to sharing the deployment data and avoiding duplication would improve existing maps and better position the agencies to sustain their collaborative efforts, especially in the event of leadership or staff changes. Furthermore, we found that the agency's collaborative efforts did not fully identify common outcomes or clearly establish agency roles and responsibilities, including leadership roles.
▶ 0:47:06To that end, the strategy called for in the plan for broadband act calls for agencies to establish those clear roles and responsibilities, as well as goals and measures for their efforts. Other work we have conducted has highlighted risks to maintaining the broadband services deployed using federal funds. Another factor that could be considered in the creation of a national broadband strategy.
▶ 0:47:26For example, in reporting on ntia tribal broadband program, we found that recipients were often relying on funding that was no longer available in order to support subscribers, without ensuring whether recipients can afford to operate their networks. Ntia risks the long term viability of its investment.
▶ 0:47:43We have ongoing work that we expect to issue later this year, which will discuss how agencies have addressed challenges recipients face in maintaining broadband service, ensuring funding is targeted to areas of greatest need also requires accurate data on where broadband is available and where it is lacking. The data bridge act being discussed today also directs fcc to further refine its maps to identify rural and geographically essential areas where broadband deployment may be prioritized.
▶ 0:48:07Our work has highlighted the importance of accurate maps and agency coordination efforts, and in the targeting of federal funding. Challenges to fcc data have frequently been successful, creating questions about the overall accuracy of these maps. While fcc takes steps to ensure the quality of its maps data, it has not assessed how well those efforts are working. And in response to our audit work and recommendations, fcc has taken some steps to address issues related to data accuracy.
▶ 0:48:35Although our recommendations remain open to sum up, as broadband deployment programs are in full swing, our work suggests federal agencies must continue to effectively coordinate their efforts and improve the broadband availability data they rely on to mitigate the risks of overlap and duplication and risks that area of the country remain underserved. This concludes my statement. I look forward to any questions. Speaker 1: thank you, miss gorman. You're recognized for five minutes for your opening statement.
▶ 0:49:02Make sure your mics on there. Speaker 8: chairman hudson, ranking member matsui, chairman guthrie, ranking member pallone and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is lindsay gorman, and I come from a background as an ai and cybersecurity engineer with start up companies, as a builder with technology focused venture firms, as a researcher of us-china technology and ai competition, and as a former white house advisor on technology.
▶ 0:49:31Two years ago, I had the honor to testify before this subcommittee on the future internet and the risks of cyber warfare from the people's republic of china. I argued then that democratic allies needed trusted supply chains for projected $500 billion internet of things market, and that applications such as in healthcare and connected vehicles, introduce new risks around dependencies, building espionage and intellectual property theft.
▶ 0:49:58Today, those risks have grown immeasurably, and they have also transformed in character. With the rapid adoption and diffusion of generative artificial intelligence. Yet the us policy response has not kept pace. I focus my testimony on three dimensions of this challenge the new cyber attack surface posed by ai models, agents and applications.
▶ 0:50:21The competition with the prc and consideration of open versus closed ai, and advances in six g telecommunications networks as ai native. First, ai is massively expanding the cyber attack surface and risks tipping the offense defense balance in favor of the attacker. Ai systems are becoming increasingly capable hackers. In april, the uk's ai security institute assessed that claude's mythos preview was capable of autonomous intrusions.
▶ 0:50:49Just yesterday, openai announced that during a benchmark cyber test, its models escaped their test environment, exploited a vulnerability to access the internet, and breached fellow ai company hugging face to steal the test results. Models and agents also create new cyber access points for intruders, such as through prompt injection and data poisoning attacks.
▶ 0:51:11Ai shows promise in defending against cyber intrusions, but the barriers to closing vulnerabilities are often less technical and more organizational. Moreover, as ai development moves from chatbots into the real world, this attack surface will only grow. One movement in ai community is the development of world models. In order to realize the true superhuman intelligence its adherents argue, ai needs to understand the physical three dimensional world.
▶ 0:51:39The potential is extraordinary, from humanoid robots that can diffuse explosive devices on the battlefield to those that fold laundry at home. Just as with large language models, enormous quantities of real world data will be required to train these world models, such as videos of janitors, cleaning office buildings, soldiers conducting reconnaissance missions, factory workers assessing complex assembling complex machinery or basketball players shooting free throws.
▶ 0:52:09Once developed and deployed, these systems will collect data continuously on their environments to refine their models. A cybersecurity framework addressing covered adversarial providers must contemplate this future. Second, the united states and its allies can benefit from leading open source ai infrastructure, but today it is the prc driving this approach. Historically, the united states has enjoyed the benefits of open source leadership.
▶ 0:52:35When software engineers the world over today write code, for example, they do so in english. The us holds a small lead in frontier ai, but its infrastructural foundations are unfolding behind closed doors. By contrast, prc players are releasing open weight models that are free to use but harder to spot bugs. While analysts assess that this approach carries is a short term strategy.
▶ 0:53:02While china lags behind the us, it carries long term risks that third countries adopt prc ai systems now due to cost. Some U.S. companies already are. The us needs lower cost alternatives for export and a vibrant open source ai ecosystem at home. Finally, six g telecom networks will merge computing and communications.
▶ 0:53:24In an ai native architecture, the us must lead a coalition of democratic allies to deploy secure six g as foundational to secure global ai. In my written testimony, I provide recommendations to congress to modernize us cybersecurity oversight for the ai era, secure ai models and applications against foreign adversarial suppliers. Accelerate six g adoption and security.
▶ 0:53:49Secure and compete on open source ai, and rebuild tech trust with allies and partners. The ai landscape is changing day by day and week by week. Protecting our networks and our leadership is vital for america's future. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. Speaker 1: thank you. We'll now begin questioning, and I'll recognize myself for five minutes. Um, Mr. ruby, uh, I'm tired of receiving illegal robocalls. I got two while we were sitting here.
▶ 0:54:16Uh, my constituents are sick of getting these calls. Um, many of these calls come from abroad. So what can we do to find these perpetrators, and how can we stop these calls from entering our network in the first place? Speaker 6: chairman hudson, um, I share your frustration and it is a huge issue.
▶ 0:54:34And, you know, I think based on, you know, what I discussed in my testimony, I do believe we need more enforcement, uh, and in particular criminal enforcement. We need to find the bad actors behind this and put them in jail. And the fact of the matter is, we can do that.
▶ 0:54:53We have powerful tools, uh, that thanks to the traced act, develop things like, um, the industry traceback group, the traceback consortium, uh, stir shaken call authentication. So what I think, um, we should be focusing on is directing our efforts at identifying these bad actors and putting them in jail, especially given the changing nature of this fraud.
▶ 0:55:22It's no longer people operating boiler rooms. It's drug cartels, transnational corporations. And the numbers are just staggering. It's a national security issue and criminal enforcement warrants it. Speaker 1: I agree. Um, so you mentioned in your testimony, um, about some of the consequences of if we get the regulation wrong on this and, uh, and imposing too many burdens on legitimate companies, um, what can you expand on that a little bit more?
▶ 0:55:51Um, and why wouldn't you know, what, what is the harm that we want to avoid? Uh, by doing that? Speaker 6: absolutely. Chairman hudson um, I like the way I think about this is where can we get the most bang for the buck? Um, and when I look at the tcpa in particular has a role to play, right? It sets compliance frameworks for, uh, legitimate callers who are trying to communicate with consumers.
▶ 0:56:20But at the end of the day, organizations like the jalisco drug cartel and the sinaloa drug cartel, they're not going to play by those rules. And the fact of the matter is, the jalisco drug cartel was engaging in telemarketing. Um, so I think, you know, what we would be doing instead of using a compliance statute to address this problem.
▶ 0:56:47This is a criminal national security problem. And we need to use existing criminal statutes to address it. Speaker 1: thank you for that. Um, Mr. van van, um, it's been a few years since gao released its report on the need for broadband strategy to improve the coordination of federal broadband programs. Uh, have things improved over the last four years? Speaker 7: yes. I think things have improved.
▶ 0:57:13We've seen programs get on track and begin, uh, putting money out into, uh, to, to provide to carriers and others to build infrastructure. So we have seen that we've seen improvements in agency coordination as well. Um, better ability to sort of de-duplicate or avoid duplication of effort where they have overlapping service areas and things of that nature. So yes, absolutely. Speaker 1: that's good news.
▶ 0:57:38Um, with the b program finally connecting homes, uh, do we still need 130 different government programs, uh, doing broadband? Uh, did we ever need that many? Speaker 7: uh, well, that's the question that we're asking today with a, with a strategy, I would say that we probably don't need 130 programs. Uh, and bede's goal is ultimately to connect every location that's in the map.
▶ 0:58:03Um, so what, what happens going forward, I think is sort of the next question for what we think of as a national broadband strategy. What are the, what are the existing needs in a post speed world? Speaker 1: yeah. Well, I agree with you on that. Um, Mr. ruby, um, we've talked about how ai can be used to secure our communications networks from bad actors. Um, how are providers using ai to combat illegal robocalls? Speaker 6: thank you, chairman hudson. Um, basically think of it as an ecosystem.
▶ 0:58:33So we have voice providers, we have partnering analytics providers. Um, and then obviously we have the bad actors. Um, what, what I'm seeing in the industry right now is that these analytics providers are using ai, uh, they're using ai to make those algorithms that they use to identify these calls more accurate. They're using ai to identify ai generated calls.
▶ 0:59:02Um, and, you know, at the end of the day, this is a bit of an arms race. I mean, the, the good guys are using ai and the bad guys are using ai. Um, but at the end, you know, basically industry is leveraging these tools because they're essential, particularly in this space. Speaker 1: well, I appreciate that. That's just one more reason we've got to win the race to develop ai. You know, we, we've, we've got to we've got to be the ones with the best systems. Um, thank you for that testimony.
▶ 0:59:32My time has expired. Uh, I now recognize the ranking member gentlelady from california for five minutes to ask her questions. Speaker 2: thank you, Mr. chairman. Um. Cyber attacks are increasing in frequency and severity, and ai models have increased the capacity for bad actors to attack critical infrastructure. We need a clear strategy to protect the communication systems that americans rely on every single day.
▶ 0:59:56Miss gorman, many critical infrastructure providers rely on complex networks with software from multiple vendors. How could a trusted software catalog automated punching, patching, and continuous monitoring help them close security gaps? Speaker 8: thanks for the question.
▶ 1:00:17As as I mentioned in my testimony, ai is also creating this incredible threat surface, but also can provide some defensive tools, some of which you've mentioned in automated threat detection, vulnerability patching. Uh, what I would urge congress to do is we really need to have some minimum security standards when we're rolling out networks, when we're using ai within our networks, we need to be sure that they are not subject to adversarial incursion.
▶ 1:00:45And that can be they can be leveraged for these, these benefits. Speaker 2: okay. Um, can you suggest other tools that congress should support to help critical infrastructure providers find and fix vulnerabilities faster? Speaker 8: I think ultimately some things, some of these things just have to be required. Um, we can let the private sector and collaborate with the, with the private sector, um, do some of this on its own.
▶ 1:01:13But when it comes to critical infrastructure, if ai systems are going to be discovering vulnerabilities for the attacker, I think we need to require that there are also going to be discovering vulnerabilities for the defenders. Speaker 2: okay, open source ai supports innovation, competition and lower costs. However, they could carry, as we know, significant risk if adopted without a clear understanding of their origins or security limitations.
▶ 1:01:39Um, miss gorman, how can congress protect against unsafe ai models while still allowing allowing open source researchers and companies to innovate? Speaker 8: there are two dimensions of the risk here. One is models coming from adversarial actors, such as the people's republic of china, which tend to be open weight. And two is this question of can you audit the source code?
▶ 1:02:07Can you understand what a model is doing right now? Those two questions are kind of aligned because the prc is putting forward these open weight models, which unlike open source software, traditionally where you can inspect the source code, you can see understand if there are bugs in there with open weight models, that's not really the case.
▶ 1:02:26So with the united states needs to do is one come up with competitors to these low cost models that the prc is putting forward? And two, support a vibrant open source, not just open weight but open source ecosystem for ai infrastructure.
▶ 1:02:44Things like the national ai research resource could be codified in statute tools to develop the infrastructure behind ai so that researchers across the country can build on open source architectures for their own models. Speaker 2: okay, now, miss garman, we know china is making advanced ai models cheaper and easier to adopt.
▶ 1:03:06Um, what investments does the united states need to ensure that secure american and allied alternatives remain affordable and competitive? Well, one. Speaker 8: one way we could do this is right now we have an american ai exports program where consortia of ai providers and industry are coming together.
▶ 1:03:30And the idea is they'll receive preferential financing, maybe some tax credits, investments, and also promotion from from the state department around the world. We need to make sure that there is a cost competitive track of that potentially open source, potentially even open weight, so that our systems can also be in the global marketplace as competing directly with the prc.
▶ 1:03:57Not not only do we need to make the best frontier models, which the united states is still doing, um, but we also need to be providing some lower cost alternatives to meet the world, I think, where it is. Speaker 2: okay. All right. Well, thank you very much, Mr. chairman, I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you. Chair. Now, recognize the chairman of the full committee. Mr. guthrie, five minutes for your questions. Speaker 3: thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I'm kind of focused on the humanoid robotics industry. So Mr.
▶ 1:04:24Robbins, who currently has the competitive edge in the humanoid humanoid quadruped robotics industry, the us or china. Speaker 5: I would say the us is leading innovation and china is leading an actual deployment. Speaker 3: okay. Can you speak more about why you think congress needs to act swiftly? Speaker 5: yeah, the congress needs to act swiftly because we've seen the exact playbook that china is using right now with humanoid and quadruped.
▶ 1:04:49Robotics and robotics broadly, uh, work very effectively in other industries like, uh, like drones, for example, which is an industry we also represent. And the longer we wait, the more the installed base grows in the united states, and the more difficult it is then to make a policy change later, the more costly that policy decision is to people who have installed, uh, chinese robots and built that base. We saw that with, with drones.
▶ 1:05:13Uh, when this committee passed the, the protecting from ccp drone act, um, there was a lot of opposition from people who had made significant investments in chinese drones thinking that was okay. They didn't understand the national security risk. Speaker 3: so what do you think are the concerns with having these robots from china? Speaker 5: yeah, there's there's a couple of big concerns. First, um, data exfiltration, uh, the, the connected systems are, are, you know, known to be directing data directly back to the prc.
▶ 1:05:42So when research is being done, um, that research in american institution is also being shared with chinese institutions. Uh, so all of that, that leakage is occurring further. There's the, these are mapping and surveilling and audio sensors on all of these robots. So whatever operation they're in, whether it's a factory or a hospital or a military base, they're creating 3d models of the world around them. They're listening to the world around them. And again, all of that data can be leaked back to china.
▶ 1:06:09And the scariest version is, uh, through a data update, a remote sensing remote access. Uh, they could actually be used to physically disrupt the environment that they're in as well. Speaker 3: yeah. This committee, uh, worked on the ban for chinese cars and that's the same, same issues with cars as well. So, so also. Mr. robin, so prior to the guard act's introduction, we work with sponsors to add in a rule of construction to carve out partner and ally countries from being included in any additions to the covered list. Can you talk more about the importance of collaborating with like minded partners, specifically in the robotics industry?
▶ 1:06:41Speaker 5: absolutely, yeah. Speaker 3: and if we didn't have outside help, I mean, outside connections not help, but connections. Speaker 5: yeah. The robotics industry is a very global industry and we have a very strong partnership in the united states with many democratic allied countries, uh, korea, japan, taiwan, throughout europe, israel, australia. And we are much stronger when working together, taking on china's authoritarian scale than when any single democratic nation trying to take on china's authoritarian scale alone. Speaker 3: okay. So, uh, also, as Mr.
▶ 1:07:09Robbins, the, the secure and trusted communications networks act, uh, referenced earlier, we call rip and replace was signed into law in 2020. Since then, foreign made this is the routers act. Far made routers and drones have been added to the cover list. Okay I guess that wrong. So since then the foreign made routers and drones have to the cover. Are there any lessons learned that we should be considering as the guard act goes through the legislative process?
▶ 1:07:33And for example, how should we think about balancing naming specific entities of concern versus entire categories of products and services? Speaker 5: yeah. Great question sir. So when the fcc took action on drones, uh, they did both. They named an entire category of products, drones, but they also named two particular companies, dji and alto robotics as particular entities, uh, companies of concern due to national security findings.
▶ 1:07:57So both work, uh, in this case in the robotics space, the leading chinese robotics company, unitary robotics, has already had a national security funding from the department of war. They've been placed in the 1268 list, which is the people's republic of china, pla military, uh, linked companies. Um, so I think doing both would, would make sense in this case as well.
▶ 1:08:19I think another lesson learned from, from drones that is a cautionary tale is, uh, with drones, the, the focus was on all drones, not just on, uh, adversarial platforms. Uh, the guard act is written in a way that targets verified national security risk with adversarial and does not sweep in our trusted, uh, nato and major non-nato allies. Um, additionally, the guard act also does not cover components.
▶ 1:08:45Um, it instead has a study on components for potential future fcc action, allowing there to be more of a transition time for us industry. Speaker 3: okay. I, my time is about to expire. All my questions I yield back. Appreciate it. Speaker 5: thank you, Mr. chairman. Speaker 1: thank you. Chairman. Chair now recognizes the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. pallone, for five minutes for your question. Speaker 4: thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:09:05I believe my secure and trusted communications networks act provided a helpful framework for how the fcc should work with our national security agencies to determine if certain communications equipment or services pose a threat to society. And under that framework, the fcc must place the equipment or services that have been deemed a national security threat on its covered list, which effectively removes them from our country's supply chains.
▶ 1:09:32But given these stakes, it's important for this committee to have oversight over the way the fcc is implementing the framework and ensure the fcc's decisions are the result of a rigorous and detailed national security analyst. So I have three questions of, uh, miss gorman. Uh, and then I'm going to go to one of Mr. rupy.
▶ 1:09:51So, miss gorman, is it important for the fcc to work with our national security agencies to evaluate the security threats posed by communications equipment and services. Speaker 8: that the fcc doesn't have a full picture on its own of national security threats. Speaker 4: okay. And should we build upon this framework to ensure that the fcc provides more transparency to this committee before placing equipment or services on the covered list? And if so, why? Speaker 8: I believe we should.
▶ 1:10:21We need a well articulated strategy, which the fcc should work with this committee, with congress to develop so that the full spectrum of U.S. national security risks, as well as economic objectives, are considered in these decisions, and that the biggest risk can be mitigated with broad bipartisan support so that ultimately they stick. Speaker 4: okay.
▶ 1:10:41And then my third question is also, how else can we improve the secure and trusted framework, especially given increasing capabilities of drones of robots and ai? Speaker 8: I think we need to really clearly spell out what risks we actually want to guard against when it comes to securing our networks.
▶ 1:11:02We're about to be confronted with a huge panoply of prc made devices, robots, um, ai models, the systems using ai models. And we need to make decisions about what risks is it espionage? Is it dependance building? Is it intellectual property theft. Is it the pure cybersecurity risk that we want to guard against with these these kinds of devices?
▶ 1:11:29And spell that out in a clear that looks to the future, that builds in both the network security and also the applications that are sitting on top of these networks. We're going to be using ai within the networks themselves. We're going to be training ai models on the network. So it's not enough to think about the applications and the networks as two separate pieces.
▶ 1:11:55But if we're going to be using ai to monitor network traffic for vulnerabilities, for malicious behavior, what are the guardrails we want to put on those systems? I think that's what this an updated framework should get at. Speaker 4: all right. Thank you. I wanted to go to Mr. ruby. We all know dangerous and unwanted calls and texts continue to bombard americans.
▶ 1:12:20The traced act, which I authored, required, among other things, the creation of the industry traceback group. It's a public private partnership to trace and stop illegal calls. While the itg has helped to reduce the amount of unwanted robocalls, there's a lot more work in congress for congress and the industry to do here. So let me ask you first. Thank you for your past efforts to stand up the itg.
▶ 1:12:43And with your experience, how else should the federal government and industry collaborate to further protect consumers from dangerous robocalls and robo texts, if you will? Speaker 6: thank you for that question. Uh, ranking member pallone and I applaud your leadership on the passage of the traced act. When I think about the traced act, and I remember the run up and the passage of it, that's exactly the type of legislation that we need to be thinking about, um, and how to approach this.
▶ 1:13:12You know, one of the big things that has changed since, you know, just prior to the troy act and now is this involvement with criminal elements, national security threats, like it really has morphed, um, in recent years from my perspective.
▶ 1:13:32But I think, you know, to your point, the traced act established the trace back consortium, the itg and the fcc, federal, other federal and state agencies have used that data. Itg data fuels enforcement. And as an example, there was a case, the fcc, some co panama, where once the fcc acted based on traceback data, those calls fell off a cliff.
▶ 1:14:04And I think what's what's missing is the individuals behind those calls. We need to bring criminal enforcement to this problem. I mean, the numbers are just staggering, particularly, particularly in terms of financial loss. So I think that's a key element. And collaboration is happening and it works. Speaker 4: all right. Thanks. Thanks again. Thank you, Mr. chairman. Speaker 9: the ranking member yields.
▶ 1:14:34And uh, now, uh, ask my questions here for the next five minutes. Uh, I want to thank chairman hudson for holding this important hearing, and I want to thank the witnesses for being here to testify. Uh, and we keep talking about robocalls.
▶ 1:14:49Um, I've had my experience with those and, uh, and in fact, this one call I got, I mean, uh, I told the guy says, you know, I'm a member of congress and I'm going to have the fbi investigate you. And, uh, he kept trying to get me to go buy this card at the. And I finally said, did you hear what I said?
▶ 1:15:15And, you know, so I don't know, but, uh, but like I said, it's it it sounds like a game of whack a mole as far as these harassing calls. Uh, and they remain a nationwide problem and it's getting really more serious and more serious.
▶ 1:15:29And I don't know where they come up with all these ideas, but, uh, uh, but obviously we talked about some of the things that, that, that, that are working, but, um, you know, and we talked about the, the, the trace legislation where we can, so we can, we can trace these calls. We have the ability to trace these calls back to the originator. Speaker 6: that's correct. Speaker 9: okay.
▶ 1:15:57Speaker 6: um, and one thing I want to emphasize about that is prior to trace back, it would take months, like six, seven, eight months for law enforcement to do that. We it can be done now in 24 hours. Okay. Sometimes less. Speaker 9: so as far as convicting these people, where is the hold up? Is it in the court system or is it, uh, it is law enforcement able to do what they need to do?
▶ 1:16:25Uh, or is doj involved? How does that the court system work and the fines and things like that? Speaker 6: so. Speaker 5: uh. Speaker 6: I think it's a resource issue. I think it's a resource and prioritization issue. Okay. And, you know, in my opinion, I think what often happens, whether it's a us attorney's office, the doj, whomever they see robo calls and they think, you know, this, this isn't a big deal, right?
▶ 1:16:56Um, it's just robo calls. Yeah. But given the changing nature of this fraud and who is involved, um, I think there needs to be a prioritization on, on criminal enforcement, civil enforcement works. It disrupts it. It knocks them off their game. But I believe we need to put people behind bars. Speaker 9: um, how about the, uh, the carriers and the equipment suppliers?
▶ 1:17:23What are they doing to try to eliminate this problem? Speaker 6: so there are various things that are happening, both, you know, on the handset side, on the carrier side, um, carriers work very closely with various vendors that are providing more and more powerful tools to consumers to identify these calls.
▶ 1:17:45Um, you know, traditionally these calls were being labeled with scam likely spam likely, uh, but as the fraud evolves, the tools evolve. And so now we're moving to solutions like branded calling solutions that, you know, will literally show verified number and logo right on the device. And carriers also work closely with the I, t, g and identifying these folks.
▶ 1:18:15Speaker 9: and so I'm listening to you. The federal government needs to do more to deal with this, obviously. And, uh, in identifying these, these, particularly these, uh, uh, enforcing the laws outside U.S. jurisdiction because I'm pretty sure this robo call I got was from some other country. I could barely understand the, the person. So, uh, well, thank you, uh, for your work on behalf of that problem. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:18:45Von, uh, in my district, many communities don't care which federal program bills broadband. They simply want reliable service. How can we make the federal process easier for local providers, from electric cooperatives to local telephone companies? And in our communities that are just simply trying to get connected? Uh, gao found that more than 130 broadband programs spread across. And I think the chairman mentioned this 15 something agencies.
▶ 1:19:12From your perspective perspective, what is the single biggest coordination problem that congress should be focused on fixing and getting this done? Speaker 7: so I think from our work, uh, vice chairman allen, I would say that it's, it's making sure that the roles and responsibilities amongst the agencies are clear. Um, we have, uh, seen a lot of positive things from coordination. We've seen them focus on avoiding duplication and being largely successful in doing so less.
▶ 1:19:40So are they sort of considering a more strategic kinds of issues, whether that that service is going to be sustainable over the long term, whether that's going to be, um, you know, have the kind of subscribership that's going to sustain that going forward. And so we would like to see sort of, you know, what happens next with federal agency coordination in those in those areas. Speaker 9: yeah. Thank you. Well, I'm out of time. I'm overtime actually. Okay. Uh, I'll now call on representative soto for his five minutes of questioning.
▶ 1:20:10Speaker 10: thank you. Chairman. Technology is moving at an incredibly rapid pace, and this committee needs to keep up to help boost jobs, to lower costs and protect our constituents. And so we have a wonderful hearing today on a whole range of issues from technology and telecommunications. Uh, first, continuing the battle against annoying and sometimes fraudulent robocalls. I feel like this is like the 19th chapter of that.
▶ 1:20:38Uh, but this time foreign calls and, uh, ai generated voice calls are now on the, on the menu finally as well. Uh, secondly, uh, ai can be used to help, uh, as well, uh, in improving security and resiliency in our telecom network. I've seen that even in our local roads, uh, back home. So I'm interested to see those efficiencies, uh, and then stopping the flood of chinese robotics.
▶ 1:21:07We know, uh, from our rip and replace, uh, issues with telecom from huawei that chinese companies have spied on us. Uh, they've used communist principles to help corner markets. Uh, we need to boost domestic production and, uh, make sure that we are, uh, these are trustworthy, uh, machines. Everybody wants a better cell phone service and internet connections.
▶ 1:21:34And so I know that, uh, when we're dealing with the ai telecom network bill, uh, that's going to be important. I'm particularly excited about the data bridge act, adding agriculture areas, uh, to national broadband maps. Uh, proud to represent cattle and citrus country. They are using precision agriculture. They're tracking livestock, receiving and analyzing large amounts of data to improve yields. And so that connectivity is so important. Uh, first, uh, Mr.
▶ 1:22:04Von, in relation to the data bridge act, I gotta ask, why were ag areas not included in the original national broadband map? Do you happen to know. Speaker 7: uh, they were included in the sense that there if there's a broadband serviceable location, um, it would be included in the map. So for example, if there was a, a farmhouse that would be a broadband serviceable location, but it wouldn't necessarily show the entire area that might need broadband coverage. Speaker 10: sure.
▶ 1:22:32And when a lot of these farms and ranchers there so vast that they're going to need different stations for both, uh, internet connections and for wi-fi on the bead program, we finally got testimony that two states, after a year and a half into this administration, finally are getting broadband. Do you see a is the speed picking up finally, again on on some of the bead? Because I know, uh, floridians, especially in these rural areas, are really, really waiting on this.
▶ 1:23:02Speaker 7: uh, from all indications, it looks like funding is starting to go out. Um, nearly all of the state plans have been approved. And as you mentioned, there's funding going out the door to to various states and they're beginning to execute their plans. Speaker 10: thank you so much, Mr. robbins. Uh, and no, under the guard act, we would help boost domestic production and also with our allies. So I guess my question is, would we be ready to meet the need or at least get close to meeting the need on day one?
▶ 1:23:28What would that look like as far as, uh, having the means of production to be able to meet the demand for all these robotics that are, uh, are needed for our daily lives? Speaker 5: yeah. Thank you for that question, congressman. Um, american robotics companies are actively working to, uh, to scale manufacturing in the us now and working with, with partners from allied nations as well. Uh, the challenge at the moment is, uh, it's hard to scale when you don't have consistent demand.
▶ 1:23:55And it's hard to raise money when investors look at the marketplace and look at other markets where china has come in and, uh, and dumped subsidized products into the market and drove american companies out of business. So right now, investors are standing on the sidelines more than we'd like them to, uh, you know, private capital is sort of learned lessons from the drone industry and solar panels and others and said, you know, until the us actually does something about this chinese dumping, this might not be a safe bet. So, uh, addressing this now with the guard act would certainly help spur U.S.
▶ 1:24:25Manufacturing as, as we're seeing now in the drone industry, where there are literally hundreds of millions of square feet of, of drone manufacturing production under construction in america today. Speaker 10: so we saw what telecommunications we had to rip and replace because it was already in there, right? It was already too late. And we had to pull all this huawei equipment back.
▶ 1:24:44Uh, is there any other sort of economic development aspects we could help you with to boost production beyond sort of stopping, uh, the, the dumping of, of chinese robotics and drones? Speaker 5: yeah, that's a great question, congressman. And you're absolutely right. The guard act is a defensive mechanism. And we need we need some offense as well. Uh, what china does really well is they, uh, they both support the companies that are manufacturing the robots, but they also support the companies that are acquiring the robots domestically in china.
▶ 1:25:14Um, they create a demand so the federal government can be a better customer first and foremost, uh, in national labs, on the military bases and other places, but also can, can create incentives for U.S. manufacturing to purchase american made robots and install them in the factories.
▶ 1:25:32We have about over 500,000 manufacturing jobs shortfall in america right now, and american robotics can help enhance american manufacturing efficiency and us gdp by helping, uh, to to enhance manufacturing efficiency. Speaker 10: thank you, I yield back. Speaker 5: thank you sir. Speaker 1: thank you. Chair now recognizes the gentleman from ohio. Mr. speaker 11: thank you, Mr. chairman, and thanks to our witnesses for being with us today. Uh, this this hearing is very, very important. And if I could start with you. Mr.
▶ 1:25:58Just I know this subcommittee for a good number of years and chaired it. But, you know, when we talk about having 130 broadband programs across 15 different departments and agencies, and the question always comes up how much, you know, how many we really need? We don't need that many. I know we don't. And the question, I guess, is jio done a report as the cost of having that many different programs across that many departments and agencies.
▶ 1:26:25Speaker 7: we haven't delved into the costs in terms of whether they're sort of like, you know, a duplicative effort across the the agencies. We haven't honed in on the exact cost of that, but certainly there's overhead in each agency to execute those programs. Um, so if you've got sort of repetitive and duplicative overhead. Speaker 11: well, let me ask, is that something that this committee, the subcommittee could ask of you at gao to do a cost estimate on that? Speaker 7: well, we can certainly discuss that, certainly with your staff.
▶ 1:26:56Speaker 11: okay. Well thank you. Uh, miss gorman, I could ask a quick question for you because so short on time. We only have five minutes on so many questions in the last, uh, bullet point in your testimony, you have your rebuild tech trust with U.S. allies and partners, and you talk about, you know, about the U.S. leadership that's been out there and that we need to be back out in front.
▶ 1:27:24So we've been talking about huawei and zte. You know, we did a $4.8 billion rip and replace in this country because they're not a trusted network. And we know that these a lot of countries out there get it because quote unquote cheap. But, you know, you sometimes you end up selling your soul to get the get with huawei and zte is giving. How do we regain that trust when. Because when everybody knows this is not trusted equipment that the chinese are putting out there.
▶ 1:27:56Speaker 8: I very much agree. And in fact, I think we for our allies and partners, we should be continuously pointing out the risks, not just to us, not just to someone else, but actually to them of using these these vendors, the intellectual property theft, the displacement of their own industries, um, that are, that are at risk.
▶ 1:28:17Um, I think some countries, uh, you know, also and some parts, particularly in europe, look at the us and say, well, we want to, we want to move towards our own sovereign approaches. Uh, and I think that would be, that would be much more difficult than if we come up with an allied, uh, an allied strategic approach where we can use trusted vendors across our allies and partners.
▶ 1:28:43Uh, and so that's the kind of trust, um, in the united states, in our, our ecosystem of allies and partners that I think is critical to ensuring that we don't make choices in this country and in our closest allies and partners, uh, about using some of these untrusted vendors like huawei and zte. Speaker 11: thank you. Uh, Mr.
▶ 1:29:05Robbins, you know, you've talked about the, the, especially in your testimony that, uh, 96% of the uncrewed aircraft in the united states is coming from one source from the prc. And that's, that's truly unacceptable. We know we've been trying to get something done about that, but we all know that the absolute risk of having these drones flying around the united states collecting information on us law enforcement has said, oh, we really like the technology. And we how do we say that?
▶ 1:29:35You know, folks, it might be time to turn those things off, put them in the closet and leave them there. Has there been a lot of discussion out there that tell people they better not be used? Because I know when I'm out and I'm asked, I said, don't use them. Speaker 5: yeah, I appreciate that, congressman. And I think the conversation has evolved a lot.
▶ 1:29:54Um, the, the education work done by congress, uh, by agencies like cisa and the fbi, uh, have really put out a lot of good information on the risk of using chinese drones and the national security implications of that. But we also have to recognize that that, you know, local law enforcement, public safety agencies, um, they typically have very, very tight budgets. And they've made, uh, in some cases, very significant investments in their chinese drone fleets. And it's not an easy switch for them to just turn those off and go back to not having drones because they are a life saving tool.
▶ 1:30:23It's also not easy for them to, to go out into the market and find new dollars to, to, to buy replacement drones. Uh, congress did have a rip and replace program as we talked about, uh, for the telecommunication network when, uh, there was a clear national security risk with zte and huawei. Uh, we would very much like to see a similar rip and replace program for drones. There are a few grant programs out there now that are helping communities.
▶ 1:30:48Doj grants, dhs grants, fema grants, um, acquire non-chinese drone technology as the chinese drone technology is being faded out because of the fcc rule ruling. Um, but it's not a lot of money right now. And that's certainly an opportunity for congress to, to, to step in and help, uh, local public safety agencies, uh, make this transition faster. Speaker 11: well, thank you very much. My time is expired. Now submit questions, uh, that I didn't have time to ask to the witnesses.
▶ 1:31:17Thank you very much, Mr. chairman. I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you. Chair. Now, recognize the gentleman from california, Mr. peters, for five minutes for your questions. Speaker 12: thank you, Mr. chairman. Thanks for calling this important hearing. Uh, we've discussed many times on this subcommittee just how critical broadband connectivity is in our increasingly online world. And in an age of technology, it's more important than ever for my constituents in san diego and americans across the country to get connected as quickly as possible so they can access employment opportunities, education, telehealth care, and more.
▶ 1:31:46In 2022, the government accounting office, or gao, released a broadband study on, uh, the, quote, national strategy needed to guide federal efforts to reduce the digital divide. And in this study, gao identified the over 130 federal programs to expand broadband access administered by 15 different federal agencies. Um, the amount of investment shows that the, um, federal government surely understands the importance of connectivity.
▶ 1:32:16The study found that this vast number of programs spread across agencies has led to a fragmented, confusing, overlapping patchwork of funding. I'm concerned that the communities with the most limited resources may be the most affected by this fragmentation. Following the publication of the gao report, I introduced the plan for broadband act with my colleague, representative walberg.
▶ 1:32:38The plan for broadband act directly mirrors, mirrors gao recommendation in this study to synchronize federal efforts with the national broadband strategy. Mr. von uh, what is at stake with regards to this federal program? Fragmentation? And which communities do you think are being harmed most? Speaker 7: um, thank you for the question, representative peters.
▶ 1:33:02Uh, so going forward right now, there's, you know, all these programs are underway in terms of trying to build out their, their broadband, broadband projects. Um, and so what's key now is sort of what areas might be missed, uh, after those projects are completed. Um, you know, will we get all of the areas covered that we want to have covered? Will there be sufficient coverage?
▶ 1:33:27Are there going to be those some carriers who drop out of these programs or default on their requirements, whether, um, what their have promised to do over in these programs? And then it's sort of what do we do at that point? And that's kind of where we are at this point. So in terms of the 130 programs, it's really boiled down to about a dozen programs, programs or so that are focused on broadband deployment currently. And they're all underway, right.
▶ 1:33:56Speaker 12: um, so you're not particularly concerned about the fragmentation or is there something you recommend we do about that? Speaker 7: I'm still concerned about the fragmentation, of course. And I and what we've recommended to agencies is the importance of interagency collaboration on knowing what each agency is doing, where they're deploying broadband, whether they're trying to leverage those resources to basically bring communities up to speed. Speaker 12: okay.
▶ 1:34:18I'm happy to see the plan for broadband act included in today's hearing, after it was reported out of the senate commerce committee last spring, and hope this bipartisan proposal, we can see it through the committee to the floor soon. Uh, today, we're also discussing legislation to crack down on robocalls. There's been a lot of discussion about that.
▶ 1:34:34I consistently hear from my constituents about the harm robocalls caused, and just recently heard from a senior citizen who resorted to changing his phone number to stop the approximately 2020 scam calls he receives every single day. Uh, for many people, phone calls are the only way to stay in touch with loved ones or to receive important medical information. But thanks to the constant flood of scam robocalls, answering the phone can feel like taking a gamble as if the scammers have taken over the whole system. So, Mr.
▶ 1:35:05Ruby, can you talk about how ai is changing the landscape for robocalls, scammers, and how we can, as congress can best protect our constituents from the scams that are becoming increasingly convincing? Speaker 6: thank you, congressman. And yes, um, you know, it is an evolving landscape and ai is certainly a tool that the scammers are using to, uh, make their fraud schemes seem more authentic, uh, make them more convincing.
▶ 1:35:32Um, and at the same time, like those same tools are being used by industry to counteract those. Um, there are challenges, uh, at times with, you know, in the example you gave, you know, certain networks, ip networks versus tdm networks, um, may be more capable of handling some of these tools.
▶ 1:36:01Um, but at the end of the day, um, you know, industry is doing everything they can to, you know, deploy these tools, deploy ai to counteract these. Um, but it's an ongoing process. And I do believe that, you know, a criminal enforcement element is, is needed. Speaker 12: I mentioned that that's something obviously we could add here. Thank you all for your testimony. Um, glad to see the committee responding to these threats. And, Mr. chairman, I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you.
▶ 1:36:30The chair now recognizes the gentleman from virginia, Mr. griffith, for five minutes for your. Speaker 13: thank you, Mr. chairman. I appreciate Mr. rubio. I appreciate your testimony. And I have gotten one. I'm not as popular as the chairman. I've only gotten one, uh, spam call while we've been sitting here. And and I am curious though, uh, because my constituents get these all the time too, but they, a lot of them in my district.
▶ 1:36:54And the complaints I get are people calling up on medicare, medicare advantage type programs. Uh, but like the chairman, I don't get those now. He's too young to get them, but I don't get those. I get the ones that want to lend me money. Um, so how do they, how, what algorithm are they using to decide to call, uh, based on, uh, lending money or medicare advantage oftentimes. Speaker 6: and thank you for that question, congressman.
▶ 1:37:24Oftentimes these scams, um, they obviously vary. They come in different flavors. Um, but oftentimes the scammers will gain access to what are called lead lists, uh, where, you know, because of something, whether it's a cyber hack where that information was obtained, where they can find identifiable information about that particular consumer, you know, they're on medicare, they're on medicaid. They. Speaker 13: they need to borrow money.
▶ 1:37:53Speaker 6: they need to borrow money. Um, you know, that gets sold on the internet as a, a full package lead list. And they'll start making those calls. And it, it can fluctuate. I used to get a lot of robocalls. Um, and even though I answer them, uh, fewer now it seems to me, but to your point, it's a very dynamic space and there is access to information that enables them to target individuals and.
▶ 1:38:23Speaker 13: and, and then I love the ones, and I don't know whether anybody else has gotten these, but I love the ones that where it says, I'm calling myself, I get a call from me. Speaker 6: where your phone number. Speaker 13: is, my phone number that's calling me to tell me about whatever it is they want to sell me. Speaker 6: yeah. Right. And that's they're, they're spoofing your caller id. Exactly. Speaker 13: and I and, and I'm, I know that has happened to constituents because they've told me that. So we're hearing all these complaints and I'm glad we're holding the hearing today to talk about h.r.
▶ 1:38:506152, which I am a co-sponsor of. But it seems to me that you got these organized, uh, scam rings that are operating overseas to do this. And isn't that what the fcc robocall mitigation database is supposed to block? Uh, and how come it didn't work in and how is it supposed to work? Speaker 6: so I will say this. I think the fcc robocall mitigation database plays a very important role.
▶ 1:39:20Um, and, you know, at a very high level, the way it functions, if you're not in the database, no provider can accept your traffic, right? So if a provider tries to go to, say, verizon or at&t and verizon and at&t sees they're not in the database, they can't send or originate calls.
▶ 1:39:43Um, I think the biggest challenge with the fcc s rmd is the quality of many of the entries. There are just, um, fraudulent organizations, voip providers that are registered in the database. Um, and the fcc, to its credit, has thrown done a lot to throw these providers out. They removed about 1400 providers last year from the rmd.
▶ 1:40:12But I think, you know, the big issue is we need to catch them on the front end before they get in the database, because once they're in the database, they can make phone calls. Speaker 13: and does the foreign robocall elimination act incentivize tracking down the bad actors? Um. Speaker 6: I believe it does, congressman.
▶ 1:40:32And, you know, I think there's a lot of good things, um, in the bill, uh, among other things, the, the task force that is formed, I'm a big believer that, you know, good data informs good policy, and the task force strives to do that.
▶ 1:40:49Uh, on the traceback front, I think it is a great idea that we are moving that renewal process from one year to three, because all that is, is a paperwork exercise for fcc enforcement bureau staff and the traceback consortium. So let's reduce the paperwork so they can focus on enforcement and traceback. Um, and I, I do acknowledge that, you know, the rmd has a lot of issues.
▶ 1:41:16And, you know, that's something that just today the fcc adopted a rulemaking on, they've initiated a rulemaking proceeding to see how best to tighten up the r&d. Speaker 13: all right, I appreciate it. I yield back, Mr. chairman. Probably have questions for the record. Thank you. Speaker 1: thank you. Chair. Now, recognize representative from illinois representative kelly for five minutes for your question. Speaker 14: thank you, Mr. chairman and ranking member for holding today's hearing. And thank you to our witnesses for being here.
▶ 1:41:45Reliable broadband is essential infrastructure. It connects families to health care, students to educational opportunities, and small businesses to customers around the world. It is critical to the success of american farmers and rural communities, who increasingly rely on precision agriculture and other connected technologies to remain competitive.
▶ 1:42:07As a proud democratic co-lead of the bipartisan data bridge act, I believe one of the most important steps we can take to ensure that we are making decisions based on accurate, complete data. If our maps fail to identify agricultural areas, we risk overlooking farmers who depend on reliable connectivity to support food production and drive innovation.
▶ 1:42:29This legislation simply gives policy makers better information by incorporating usda cultivated land maps into broadband maps, so that broadband investments can be targeted where they're needed most. Improvements to the national broadband map will lead to better decisions, better stewardship of taxpayer dollars and ultimately better outcomes for rural america. Mr.
▶ 1:42:55Bonner, can you explain why incorporating agricultural land into fcc's broadband maps would improve federal broadband plan planning and deployment decisions? Speaker 7: absolutely. Thank you for the question, representative kelly. Our work over the last several years has continuously shown that the better, accurate, more accurate data we have in maps, the better we can target our investments.
▶ 1:43:18Um, that's been true going back to when fcc used census blocks to sort of identify where, where broadband was or wasn't the more refined and more accurate data that we can get, the better we can target those investments. Speaker 14: thank you. And as farms increasingly rely on precision agriculture, connected equipment and real time data, what are the potential consequences to federal broadband funding if these agricultural areas continue to be underrepresented in our mapping efforts?
▶ 1:43:48Speaker 7: I think the answer is fairly simple that they may not get the investment necessary to support those kinds of activities. Speaker 14: and that affects our farmers and economic development. Our district is urban, suburban and rural, and I have 4500 farms in my district, so they are definitely very interested in this. Well thank you. And we must ensure greater access to broadband for all americans. And that includes our farmers and rural communities who feel left out far too often. Thank you. And I yield back.
▶ 1:44:18Speaker 1: thank you. The chair now recognizes the representative from texas, representative pfluger, for five minutes for your questions. Yeah, thank you, chairman. Thanks for for holding this hearing. And to our witnesses, we appreciate your your testimony as we look through these issues. Um, every phone call, every text and transaction that americans make travel across networks that are under growing attack. And I think we can you've mentioned that today, but recent reporting showed millions of attacks launched against U.S. telecom providers in a single year.
▶ 1:44:45And those that obviously has a cost associated with it, billions of dollars, in fact. And ai has given our adversaries a powerful new tool to launch these attacks at a scale that we have not seen, um, maybe ever. And it should also be one of our best tools to stop them. Ai should be that tool that we can help leverage and stop. And I think that's important.
▶ 1:45:10And that's why congressman menendez and I introduced the bipartisan ai for secure networks act, which directs the department of commerce, to examine how ai can be responsibly used to strengthen the security and resilience of telecommunications networks. So, Mr. gorman, I'll start with you. You've said that ai risk tipping the offense defense balance in the attacker's favor, even as it shows real promise for automated threat detection.
▶ 1:45:34Can you maybe expand a little bit on where is ai based network defense mature enough to deploy right now? Um, and then on the other side of that coin, where does it still need to grow? Speaker 8: yeah. Thank you, congressman, for the question. And I think this is a, the offense defense battle balance, um, is, is evolving when these technologies are evolving so rapidly, um, that every week there's a new, a new development.
▶ 1:46:03And, but I agree, and I agree with the, the premise of the ai for secure networks act that we need to be leveraging these technologies, um, for, for defense, um, where I think these technologies are increasingly mature is in finding vulnerabilities that we might not be able to find with other means. That's incredibly powerful for both attackers.
▶ 1:46:27And of course, also for defenders, where I think there's still work to be done is exactly in this question of what kinds of models and what cybersecurity standards of the models of themselves are we going to allow into our networks to monitor the traffic on networks, to find vulnerabilities, to monitor for suspicious behavior? Right now, we don't have any requirements on cybersecurity standards of the models themselves. They're they're subject to data poisoning. They're subject to prompt injection attacks.
▶ 1:46:56Um, they could be using adversarial models. So I think that's really the biggest barrier to fully integrating these, these ai models into network defense. Speaker 1: thank you. Um, Mr. robbins, you've made the case that the connected storage devices pose a risk whether the robots are network or equipment or otherwise. And I agree with that. Does the same logic apply to how we think about deploying ai enabled monitoring tools across, um, telecom networks?
▶ 1:47:28Speaker 5: yes. Thank you for that question, congressman. Um, we see robots as the physical manifestation of ai. It is embodied ai. So yes, that logic absolutely is, uh, is sound. Speaker 1: um, I want to talk robocalls and I know that this has been discussed, but it's obviously one of the top complaints that we hear.
▶ 1:47:48Um, and assuming most of my colleagues are also getting the same, but according to the fcc, illegal and spoofed robocalls remain its top, top consumer protection priority. And a large share of that traffic is originating in foreign locations with foreign based robocallers. And it's a huge problem and a challenge. Um, the traced act, signed into law in 2019, directed the fcc to designate a single consortium to run private lead traceback efforts.
▶ 1:48:17Um, and they've redesignated industry traceback group every year since 2020. Mr. ruby, you helped build the itg from scratch. And, uh, how would extending that consortium's designation from one year to three years, say, um, affect its ability to actually go after robocallers and have a higher effective rate? Speaker 6: thank you. Congressman, I, I think that extension makes great sense.
▶ 1:48:43And, you know, the main reasons are, um, I think it's prudent that the traced act established a review period for the designated traceback consortium, but it's sort of a goldilocks scenario, right? Like one year is a little too short. Three years is an ideal period because each and every year the fcc has to go through an administrative process. If a competing application is filed, the the trace back consortium has to respond.
▶ 1:49:12So in my mind, it's a more efficient process that enables both the enforcement bureau and the traceback consortium to do what they do best, which is find bad guys and target them. Speaker 1: thank you. Five minutes is hard to get everything solved, but I appreciate that. Yield back, chairman. Thank you. The chair now recognize representative from california, representative barragan for five minutes for her question. Speaker 15: thank you, Mr. chairman. Last year, seniors lost $7.7 billion to scammers, up to 59% from the year before.
▶ 1:49:42And part of that came from what the fbi calls the distress scams, where the ai voice cloning tools mimic a grandchild's voice to fake an emergency. Mr. ruby, these scams are already happening today. In addition to the quiet act, what else can congress do to stop that call before it ever reaches someone?
▶ 1:50:02Speaker 6: thank you, congresswoman, and, um, you know, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I do believe that, you know, in my mind, we can find the individuals originating these calls. We can find them, we can locate them, and we can find the organizations that are, you know, managing that process. And that is a heartbreaking scam. It's terrible. My own 90 year old mother received a call like that.
▶ 1:50:31Um, but that is why I, I really think we need to start focusing on criminal enforcement. I think too often people think about robocalls as a nuisance, a bother. Uh, it's no longer that this is, you know, as I noted in my opening testimony, it's not only a major consumer harm issue. It's it's national security. Speaker 15: is there anything in the current law now that would stop the call before it connects?
▶ 1:51:03Speaker 6: I think the closest thing that would stop a call before it connects is removal from the fcc robocall mitigation database. In other words, you know, whoever that provider is that is originating those calls, once they are taken out of the database, they can't do that anymore. And the fcc has done that. They've, you know, removed 1400 last year from the r and d. Speaker 15: thank you.
▶ 1:51:29One more on this is a lot of my constituents speak spanish or another language at home first. And scam operations already run calls in multiple languages. Does a disclosure rule like the quiet act protect someone if the scam isn't happening in english or non-english speakers more exposed and less protected than any than everyone else? Speaker 6: thank you. Congressman.
▶ 1:51:51In my opinion, I don't I don't think that, um, imposing compliance mandates will lower the prevalence of those calls or reduce those calls, because at the end of the day, the bad actors behind those calls, they don't they don't care about compliance. They don't observe, do not call mandates. They do not disclose their actual identities. And you know, it.
▶ 1:52:18It's not going to have the downward pressure on illegal robo calls that we all want, in my opinion. Speaker 15: is there any kind of tracking of whether these scams are disproportionately target non-english speakers, or is that data we don't have? Speaker 6: there are there are certainly vendors out there and, um, you know, potentially some carriers that have that information, they can see where these scams are occurring geographically.
▶ 1:52:47So companies like youmail, nomorobo and others, they can see that data. Speaker 15: great. Thanks. Mr. vaughn. I, um, a 2023 report that you authored found that nearly a third of families without broadband said the reason was cost, and a quarter of families who already had it struggled to afford it. Now those same families are paying up to $30 or more, a $30 a month more, um, which is almost $350 a year.
▶ 1:53:17Since the affordable connectivity program ended, does gao still consider the single biggest barrier between families? Um, does it does gao still consider cost the single biggest barrier between families and affordable broadband? Speaker 7: uh, if it's, uh, certainly one of the key issues, if not the most critical one. Yes. Speaker 15: it's not the most critical cost. It's not the most critical.
▶ 1:53:44Speaker 7: no, it's certainly it certainly is one of the most critical. Yes. Speaker 15: it is one of the most critical. Um, because I saw a report that jio had and it mentioned, um, a number of programs that were important and that the affordable connectivity program was one of them. Right. Um. Do you think that help people afford access to broadband?
▶ 1:54:12Speaker 7: uh, while that program was going on it, there were some 24, 23 million subscribers to that program that benefited from that particular program. Um, after it was, after it ran out of money. Um, I think that there were sort of estimates that some 5 million or so subscribers, um, discontinued their service and some 8 million more perhaps, um, you know, would either downgraded their service or went to try to find some lower cost options.
▶ 1:54:41Speaker 15: so, so millions of people lost access to broadband when that program went away. Speaker 7: they some, some did lose access to broadband. And then what we understand more recently is that they're trying to find ways to get broadband back. So they're trying to find cheaper, lower cost options. Speaker 15: well, any democrats back in power to do that I yield back. Speaker 1: uh, the chair recognizes the gentleman from louisiana, Mr. carter, for five minutes for your questions. Speaker 16: thank you, Mr. chairman. And thank the witnesses for being here. We appreciate your time and expertise.
▶ 1:55:11Um, broadband is the critical infrastructure that connects our communities and enables people to fully participate in the modern economy. It powers nearly every sector of our society. And as artificial intelligence continues to evolve, reliable high speed connectivity will not only become more essential, but will be more needed in areas than ever before.
▶ 1:55:34Uh, if the united states wants to remain a global leader in innovation and compete with other nations, we cannot afford to leave people behind because the lack of reliable connectivity. That's why the broadband equity access and deployment or bid program is so important.
▶ 1:55:53This historic investment was intended to fully to finally connect rural and underserved communities to high speed internet, unnecessary deployment delays only widen the digital divide and postpone economic opportunity. We know that broadband is the backbone of telehealth, allows patients, especially in rural areas, to access quality health care without traveling long distances, but without reliable infrastructure. Broadband infrastructure.
▶ 1:56:22Telehealth simply is not an option for those who need it most, and our technology continues to evolve. We must continue investing in communication technology and networks to connect everyone, regardless of their zip code. Mr. gorman, why is resilient broadband infrastructure an essential component for consumers to fully leverage artificial intelligence? Speaker 8: thanks for the question. I think a few reasons.
▶ 1:56:51Uh, first, that throughout we're in a global competition to develop ai, to deploy ai, and we need the best and brightest from this country to be part of, of that race and that contest. And right now, if, if students around the country are unable to access artificial intelligence or unable to build their own tools because of lack of access to broadband, um, we may not get the best.
▶ 1:57:18And the brightest is part of this geopolitical competition. Um, additionally, you mentioned the rural and underserved communities, telehealth. I actually think some of the most innovative applications of artificial intelligence are exactly in these fields. Um, taking a global example, uh, in india, ai helped farmers massively increase yields, productivity, decrease the amount of pests in, in crops.
▶ 1:57:48Uh, I think we can do the same thing in many, many farming communities across the united states. And similarly, telehealth, uh, is an area where throughout the country, I think we've all had the experience of being plagued by wait times, high costs, and there's real room for ai disruption and innovation. And I agree that that's only possible with connectivity and broadband throughout. Speaker 16: thank you, Mr. menon.
▶ 1:58:12How can communities be harmed when high speed, reliable internet isn't available, especially when it comes to health care outcomes? Speaker 7: thank you for the question, representative carter. I mean, in general, they forego the benefits of being able to participate in the internet economy, right? Which could mean things like job opportunities or business opportunities, speaker 16: health when health care clinics are closing down because of drastic cuts to medicaid.
▶ 1:58:40And we're seeing clinics and critical care units going away, and in some cases, rural hospitals, the only access they have will be through telehealth, right? Speaker 7: and so they would also forego the benefits of, you know, opportunities or information available on their on from in the health care setting. Speaker 16: Mr.
▶ 1:58:59Rupee, you, you indicated that we know where the bad actors are, those who are perpetuating these, um, erroneous phone calls that are scamming, telling the chairman that he's got $45,000 waiting to just pick up or calling to say, we'd like to buy a property that you own or calling to say that I'm stuck in on some foreign island and I lost my credentials and I need, uh, $1,000 just to get home. These happen all the time.
▶ 1:59:28Uh, our aged communities are finding themselves more and more vulnerable to these bad actors who call what appears to be legitimate phone calls with people with distress. You indicated that we could find them. How successful are we in actually finding them and bringing them to justice? Speaker 6: well, I think we're very successful at identifying these parties.
▶ 1:59:52I mean, it the way traceback works, the traceback goes from the point of termination to who made the call. Um, I think the, the challenge we have here is, you know, the will to, to go to that next step to pursue meaningful enforcement actions. Um, you know, the fcc and the ftc and state ags have undertaken a number of civil enforcement actions.
▶ 2:00:19But again, I think, you know, in that instance you're talking about, I, you know, I believe that we need criminal enforcement action. Speaker 16: got a ton of more questions. What time is exhausted? So, Mr. chairman, I yield. Speaker 1: thank the gentleman. The chair now recognizes. The representative from indiana. Representative houchen. Speaker 17: sorry, Mr. menendez, thank you, Mr.
▶ 2:00:49Chairman and ranking member matsui, for holding this hearing. And thank you to the witnesses. Uh, two things on today's agenda matter a great deal to the people back home in indiana getting reliable internet service to the places that still don't have it, and stopping a flood of scam calls from hitting their phones on scam calls. This is one of the biggest issues I hear about from constituents. They're getting them every day, sometimes all day, every day.
▶ 2:01:15And the people running these are increasingly organized criminal operations overseas. I appreciate the work that my colleagues have done on the foreign robocall elimination act, as well as the quiet act, and I look forward to seeing more activity on this topic. Lord knows we could all use quieter phones, less scam texts, and less scam calls. But on broadband, I'm pleased to see that h.r. 4950, the data bridge act, is included in today's hearing.
▶ 2:01:45I want to thank my colleague miss kelly for co-leading the bill with me and Mr. soto and Mr. landsman for their support as co-sponsors. The fcc keeps a national broadband map that shows where internet service is available, and the federal government uses it to decide where to send broadband funding. But the map is built around homes and businesses. It is not show farmland.
▶ 2:02:08That's a problem because farming today runs on connectivity out in the field, on guidance systems, sensors, monitors and equipment that has to talk to a network. A farm can be counted as covered on the traditional broadband map at the farm house, while the acres where the actual work happens have no service.
▶ 2:02:29The data bridge act aims to solve that problem by directing the fcc to place data that the usda already collects. Uh, on the broadband map onto the broadband map. Right now, the fcc has a map showing where service is available. There's a separate federal map showing where agencies are funding deployment. Mr.
▶ 2:02:52Van ark, is it fair to say that improving the broadband maps is one of the highest return, lowest cost things congress can do to address broadband deployment? Speaker 7: uh, thank you for that question. It's certainly, um, improving the accuracy of the maps goes a long way to better targeting federal investment. Speaker 17: and it helps prevent us from overbuilding. It might also help us, um, in these, uh, dead zones.
▶ 2:03:20Uh, according to the map, it looks like they are covered, but they're actually dead zones. Might help us spur some federal investment to finally get those. What we consider the final miles covered with access. Is that correct? Speaker 7: that's correct. Speaker 17: are you are the usda, the ntia and treasury sitting on their own data, or are they submitting that data to the fcc for maps?
▶ 2:03:46Speaker 7: so the agencies have some agreements in place on the data they share about their deployments. Um, we have made some recommendations about them agreeing to the time frames and the kinds of data that they send to those maps, because we see certainly a lag in, um, those maps when a deployment has been made and whether it shows up on the map or when it shows up on a map. Speaker 17: so should the fcc's broadband map be the unified source of truth for federal broadband decisions on these dollars?
▶ 2:04:17Speaker 7: uh, at this point, it's our best option, although there are and I think the agencies do refer to other sources when they're coordinating to avoid duplicative effort. Speaker 17: thank you. A principle that runs through the gao's work is that agencies should use the data that the government has already collected before devising anything new is putting an existing federal data set onto an existing federal map. Exactly that principle in practice. Speaker 7: yeah.
▶ 2:04:43Our work would suggest that we want to make sure that the data that we add would be accurate, right? So we did notice in the legislation this notion that it would be developed in concert with agriculture, um, data, existing data. And so that certainly is an important piece of it. Speaker 17: we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Do you see other opportunities where the data the federal government already holds could be useful in making the map more accurate?
▶ 2:05:08Speaker 7: um, we have recommendations again for the agencies to sort of continue to feed data to the map and, and to do it in a more uniform and timely manner. And so that's what we would like to see. Speaker 17: well, whether it's stopping scam calls or closing this digital divide, the through line today with this hearing is clear. The federal government works best when it's coordinated and working from good information.
▶ 2:05:31Uh, the data bridge act delivers on that by providing a more complete broadband map built from the data the government already collects at no new cost. I urge my colleagues to support h.r. 4950 as it moves through the committee process. I thank the witnesses. Thank you, Mr. von. Uh, and I yield back. Speaker 1: thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from new jersey, Mr. menendez, for your questions. Speaker 18: thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:05:58Our district our district sits at the heart of america's critical infrastructure. The corridor between newark airport and the port of elizabeth has been called the most dangerous two miles in america. Because of the particular risk to our transportation, energy, communications and commercial infrastructure. A disruption here wouldn't just affect new jersey, it would have cascading consequences for communities and businesses across the country. For our communities, secure and reliable communications networks are essential.
▶ 2:06:25They link families to emergency services, banks, hospitals and schools and ensure quick, effective response in the event of an attack against our infrastructure. A cyber cyber threats grow more sophisticated. We need the strongest tools available to defend these networks. Ai can help providers protect our communities from disrupted communications networks. Use responsibly. Ai can help identify vulnerabilities and respond to threats more quickly, but use maliciously.
▶ 2:06:52It can make cyber attacks more damaging and harder to stop. Congress has a responsibility to address both realities. That is why congressman pfluger and I introduced the bipartisan ai for secure networks act. Our bill would promote the responsible use of ai to strengthen the cybersecurity of america's communications networks, while confronting the risks posed by its misuse.
▶ 2:07:13We cannot afford to stand by as threats to the networks american families rely on every day continue to grow in scale, sophistication and severity. As cyber attacks become more frequent and sophisticated, congress must act to protect these systems and the communities they serve. Mr. gorman, just briefly, given the concentration of critical infrastructure in and around new jersey, would you agree that a cyber attack on our networks could have far reaching consequences for both our communities and the nation?
▶ 2:07:43Speaker 8: they could be among the most disruptive attacks. Speaker 18: I agree. Um, Mr. ruby, just briefly, how does ai powered threat detection and response help prevent these attacks and protect the families, hospitals, first responders, and airports that depend on reliable communications networks? That was for you, Mr. ruby. Speaker 6: um, I think thank you, congressman. I think, um, you know, communications companies are leveraging ai to protect the networks.
▶ 2:08:11Um, because as you noted, adversaries are likewise deploying it. So it's a bit of an arms race. Speaker 18: yeah, it's on both the offensive and defensive capabilities. And so being prepared for both while ai offers opportunities for innovation and security, we also know that bad actors are also using this technology to exploit our vulnerabilities and improve cyber attack capabilities. Mr.
▶ 2:08:34Gorman, as bad actors increasingly use ai to launch more advanced attacks, how could the ai for secure networks act? Help network providers and federal agencies better understand and keep pace with these evolving risks? Speaker 8: thank you, congressman, for the question.
▶ 2:08:52Generally, when such a breach happens, one of three things has occurred either a known vulnerability that was unpatched gets exploited, an unknown vulnerability gets exploited, or there was some kind of a human error. Someone clicked on a phishing link. Someone had an insecure password. Ai can be helpful with all three of these tools.
▶ 2:09:13And that and all three of these types of exploits, finding vulnerabilities that we don't know about, automatically patching vulnerabilities that we should know about, and also flagging potential phishing attacks for the humans so we don't make those errors. That's why I think this the secure networks ai for secure networks bill can be so vital to figure out which are the threats that are actually coming from ai into our networks, which are causing us the most harm, and what can we actually be deploying to to combat that?
▶ 2:09:44And this technology is moving so quickly that this needs to be more than just a one time, a one more than just a one time thing. We need continuously updating our understanding. And I think this, this act, um, is a great start to provide this information across the federal government. Speaker 18: I appreciate that because american families should not have to worry that a cyber attack could cut them off from emergency services or the people they love. Our networks are too important, and the stakes are simply too high for congress not to act.
▶ 2:10:13I'm proud that this committee is advancing bipartisan solutions to strengthen these systems, protect families, and keep communities across the country connected. Thank you, chairman, and I yield back. Speaker 9: gentleman yields. Now call on representative mcclellan for your five minutes. Speaker 19: thank you, Mr. chairman. Us households have on average 21 devices connected to the internet.
▶ 2:10:37I expect this is only going to grow as ai, robotics and other smart internet of things devices become more integrated into our daily lives. This makes reliable and secure communication networks more important than ever. And at the same time, we have seen what happens when we do not act fast enough to address the growing cyber and national security threats early. We must learn from the past to inform the future.
▶ 2:11:03The stakes are too high to do otherwise, and that's why I am proud to work with chairman molenaar on the bipartisan guard act, which takes a proactive approach to evaluating the national security risk posed by connected robotics before those technologies become deeply embedded in our economy and critical infrastructure. And with that, I want to start with you, Mr. robbins.
▶ 2:11:25I think we can all agree that we should not repeat the mistakes that left the united states scrambling to remove hui and zte equipment only after it had already been become embedded in our communications networks and posed a significant national security risk.
▶ 2:11:42In your view, what makes the covered list an effective national security tool, and are there other tools or authorities that congress should consider to ensure that the us maintains pace with china's rapid deployment of robotics? Speaker 5: yeah, thank you for that question, congresswoman, and thank you for your leadership on the guard act. It is very much sincerely appreciate it. So first of all, the covered list is a good source of, uh, of action.
▶ 2:12:07Uh, with the guard guard act directs the fcc to take action because the fcc has the authority to, um, take care of this proactively. Um, they can, as they've done with drones and internet routers, uh, restricted the import of future models, which doesn't necessarily impact the models that are already here. Um, that ensures that there's a cut off point.
▶ 2:12:32Uh, it gives investors certainty that the market's not going to continue to be flooded with subsidized, uh, chinese robots or drones. Um, and further injecting national security risk into the speaker 15: the united states. The fcc also has a lot of agility in their ability to act. So when a company takes an action like sets up a fake subsidiary, uh, white label company to then continue to try and do operations in the united states, the fcc has the ability to quickly take action and ban that subsidiary.
▶ 2:13:00And in fact, they just did so this week with 9 or 10 fake companies that were operating as a white label subsidiaries of a chinese drone company, dji. Speaker 11: and what is the worst case scenario? If we wait too long to confront the potential threats posed by chinese made communications equipment, technology and services, and advanced robotics? Speaker 15: yeah. The risk is that they become embedded in society like chinese drones did.
▶ 2:13:26And then the cost of rolling that back is, is significantly greater to, to the american people while we're also exporting, uh, the data that the robots are collecting right back to china, uh, powering their innovation, powering their research. Um, you know, research labs, universities that are doing research today primarily on artificial intelligence with chinese robots. All that debt is going right back to china, where we're handing this a gift to them.
▶ 2:13:54Uh, so, you know, they're they're flooding the us market with subsidized robots is strategic. Speaker 11: and what's at stake for american startups and our robotics research and development ecosystem. If chinese made robotic and communication technologies continue to undercut us innovation. Speaker 15: yeah, it's going to be very challenging for companies to, to, to be able to compete. I think us innovation will continue to lead the world, but it's very challenging for companies to scale manufacturing. It's very hard for them to raise the money to hire the workforce and build out the floor plan.
▶ 2:14:24When investors see what's happened in other industries where china has come in and flooded the market and drove companies either out of business or kept their market share small because they have artificially low prices. Speaker 11: and so you'd agree it's important that congress act now to ensure that american companies compete on a level playing field, and that the united states remains a global leader in these critical technologies? Speaker 15: absolutely. Congress should act now. Speaker 11: okay. And, um, I may not have time to get an answer to this, so I'll ask you all to respond in on the record.
▶ 2:14:56But, you know, miss gorman, you've seen and I'm sure we've talked about all the news that during the testing phase of openai's gpt 5.6 and more powerful unreleased models, their ability to to, you know, break out and go rogue. Um, this is an unprecedented event in which ai acts outside of its directives and could become more commonplace.
▶ 2:15:19So what safeguards should we be looking at so that the very technology that we're using to protect our critical infrastructure works for us and not against us? Speaker 18: happy to happy to answer more fully. But essentially, this is the question of model alignment and making sure that we assess models for alignment before deploying them in critical infrastructure is vital. Speaker 11: thank you, I yield back. Speaker 19: the gentlelady yields. And now I'll call on doctor joyce for your five minutes of questioning.
▶ 2:15:51Speaker 5: thank you, Mr. chairman, for allowing me to join. Speaker 4: in this important hearing. Speaker 14: bridging the. Speaker 5: digital divide and. Improving connectivity is. Speaker 4: a top priority for. Speaker 5: my constituents. Speaker 4: representing rural south, central and southwestern pennsylvania. I am keenly aware of the unique challenges that rural agricultural communities face when it comes to getting connected. Rural communities consistently fall behind the rest of the country, seeing technology continue to advance.
▶ 2:16:21While many state and federal programs exist to help bridge this gap, that divide is still very wide. These communities are strong. They're hard working. They contribute to our nation, and without them, we wouldn't have food on our tables tonight for dinner. They deserve our unwavering support. The subcommittee has done extensive work in examining the unique roles and. Speaker 5: needs of our rural communities, and diligently working to solve these problems.
▶ 2:16:49But there's still work to be done, and there's still broadband to deploy. Having reliable data to drive that deployment is necessary as we seek to ensure universal broadband availability for each and every american. Accurate broadband mapping is critical to the efficient use of taxpayer dollars for the administration of federal broadband programs that aim to deliver necessary telecommunications infrastructure to rural communities, Mr.
▶ 2:17:17Vaughan a current data can sometimes be unreliable. I think we can agree on that. Can you speak about your recommendations for improving the fcc's mapping strategy and how this can be achieved in a way that improves specifically broadband broadband deployment in the underserved rural areas? Speaker 17: thank you for that question, representative joyce.
▶ 2:17:40Our recommendations have been around getting federal agencies to be more uniform in their reporting of their deployment data to the to the maps, so that we understand where there are federal obligations for a build out and where where there still is lack service lacking. Um, so we have those open recommendations. We're working with the agencies to close them and to get sort of agreement amongst them all. But that's, that's where our recommendations are led. Speaker 5: by congresswoman hawken, who just spoke to you.
▶ 2:18:11H.r. 4950. The data bridge act seeks to improve the fcc's existing national broadband map to include a layer specifically for agricultural areas representing rural pennsylvania. I am grateful to congresswoman hawken for leading this legislative effort, and I'm proud to join in and co-sponsor of that legislation. Mr.
▶ 2:18:31Vaughn, oh, in your opinion, how would this mapping addition create the opportunity for more federal grant dollars to reach these areas, that the coverage is needed and so desperately? Speaker 17: I think our work has shown, again, more specific and more accurate data in the maps will help spur investment into those areas, to those areas that are of greatest need. Speaker 5: do you have Mr. van? Do you have any other suggestions for this subcommittee as we continue to work towards closing that digital divide completely?
▶ 2:19:04Speaker 17: I think what's important going forward is once these programs that are all actively deploying broadband infrastructure, uh, sort of get to an end point, how are those, uh, networks going to be sustained over time and maintained over time? And I think that's sort of the question going forward for what a national broadband strategy would look like in the future. Speaker 5: and those next steps need to be addressed right now. So thank you for bringing that into the discussion.
▶ 2:19:28We recognize that critical resources for rural communities such as precision agriculture, telemedicine, and even the ability to call 911 require dependable and reliable connectivity. Hard working families in rural america built this nation. Their way of life must be preserved and supported by the modern technology that is available to so many americans.
▶ 2:19:53And as we continue to seek ways to provide this infrastructure to every corner of our great country, I'm proud to support congresswoman hawkins data bridge act. It makes a strong step forward on the path to finally bridging the digital divide and ensuring the universal broadband availability reaches each and every corner of america. Thank you, Mr. chairman, for allowing me to participate in this, and I yield back the remainder of my time.
▶ 2:20:23Speaker 19: the gentleman yields. I believe we have one more member on the way. We just got a notification. He's on his way in. Okay. Bear with us a moment.
▶ 2:21:14Okay. All right. Well, I'm sorry, Mr. is not going to be able each. He helps me a lot with all these kinds of things. He's really good with this. But seeing there are no further members wishing to be recognized, I'd like to thank our witnesses for being here today. You point a lot. Pointed out a lot of things. We gotta we gotta get done. We gotta get to work on. And I, and I thank you for sharing that with us.
▶ 2:21:41And, uh, and then helping us to, uh, to deal with these many issues that we have with technology and communications and everything else. I ask unanimous consent to insert in the record the documents included on the staff hearing documents list without objection. So ordered. I remind members that have ten business days to submit questions for the record, and I ask the witnesses to respond to those questions promptly.
▶ 2:22:07Members should submit their questions by the close of business on august 5th, 2026, and without objection, the subcommittee is adjourned. Thank you.