▶ 0:24:47Chair Cardin: Senate foreign relations committee order. Let me welcome the deputy secretary of state. Always good to have you here. Before I give my collet -- comments, I want to comment on these elections that work certainly disappointing, to put it mildly. [phone ringing] even the bell rings. The understandings were not met.
▶ 0:25:19Chair Cardin: We knew that going into the elections. The votes are very clear. Opposition won the popular vote, yet maduro is going to hold onto power. I think it's essential that we be very clear that maduro was not elected as president of venezuela.
▶ 0:25:46Chair Cardin: I think we have to work with our partners in the region, particularly binge though -- brazil and columbia to make it clear that maduro was not the winner of this election. Mr. secretary, anything that we can do to assist in that regard, please let us know. We were clear in our comments and we think we need to work with our partners in south america to make it clear that this was not an election where maduro won.
▶ 0:26:21Chair Cardin: The topic for today's hearing is p.r.c.'s global influence. From the construction of a 290 mile railroad in kenya to the sale of armored vehicles, jets, and missiles to venezuela, to their attempt to broker a saudia ram deal.
▶ 0:26:41Chair Cardin: Fake commentators whose pro-beijing writings have been published across space -- asia, latin america, china is competing with the united states for influence in every region of the world. Yet last year xi jinping claimed that china does not seek a sphere of influence and that china will never impose its rules on others. I find that hard to believe given all of the evidence that we have to the contrary.
▶ 0:27:13Chair Cardin: Look at beijing and its economic coercion of other countries who expanded trade relations with taiwan after deploying U.S. missile defense system in response to a threat from north korea. In fact, china is a country with a decades long well documented track record of suppressing fundamental freedoms and abusing human rights.
▶ 0:27:39Chair Cardin: Those of us who value freedom and liberty, human rights and democracy, china is one of the most significant challenges that we face on the global stage today. In a speech outlining the biden administration p.r.c., secretary blinken said -- china is the only country with the intent to reshape international order and increasingly the economic diplomatic military, and technological power to do it.
▶ 0:28:08Chair Cardin: Nato observed just recently that china has enabled the putin war against ukraine. Secretary campbell, thank you for joining us to discuss this important topic. I support the biden harris administration approach to the beijing issue. The administration has short of our relationship with allies. The competition is on. Particularly in the global south .
▶ 0:28:34Chair Cardin: It's not clear to me that we are committing the time, attention, or resources necessary to win the war of ideas. We should be making a compelling case for the kind of world we seek to foster. Secretary campbell, you have been clear eyed about this agenda when it comes to the pursuit of military and security agreements.
▶ 0:28:57Chair Cardin: The economic agreements around the infrastructure projects, the spread of the technologies that enable authoritarians around the world, and the disinformation campaigns. To address these challenges the U.S. should not only invest in our military, but also our diplomatic and economic development tools. That is why every year the biden administration has requested additional resources to outcompete china.
▶ 0:29:25Chair Cardin: The committee has spent a lot of time in this congress talking about that competition. We have had four classified briefings directly related to china or taiwan. We have not yet been able to put this rhetoric into action on passing legislation to fund and modernize the U.S. foreign toolkit. I am willing to work with any willing partner on the others of the aisle to make this happen. It is simply that important.
▶ 0:29:56Chair Cardin: We have a lot of bipartisan legislation written by members of this committee's -- this committee and others that deal with this. The only way we will get to the finish line is if we work together, listen to each other, be willing to compromise and willing to get to the finish line to get the agenda done. That's the only way we will be able to fund and modernize foreign-policy toolkit.
▶ 0:30:20Chair Cardin: I will make it clear that I will sit down with any member to find a common path, I'm willing to compromise, I think it is that important to get to the finish line. We should be providing an alternative to the infrastructure development that the prc offers and offering multilateral financing to provide flexibility and agility to be responsive to the increasing -- increasingly contested strategic environment.
▶ 0:30:49Chair Cardin: I will tell you, members and staff on both sides of the aisle have worked together and come very close to having this modernization to meet these challenges. Let's complete the task, let's get it done. Let's take it to the committee for a business meeting. We should be better resourcing our efforts to secure critical mineral supply chains to power artificial intelligence and facilitate clean energy transition. We should be promoting U.S. values in protecting human rights defenders from transnational aggression.
▶ 0:31:23Chair Cardin: We also need to talk about nominations and have a map behind us to illustrate the point. There are more than 20 countries where china has an ambassador in place and the united states does not. That means we are not playing on a level playing field. It means we are giving up a strategic ability to compete in those countries. The prc does not have to deal with licensing in the senate. We do.
▶ 0:31:50Chair Cardin: But we have to carry out our responsibility. Nonetheless, chinese ambassadors are pressing the flesh, cutting deals, getting their narrative out and the united states is not . We have 25 investment ambassadors pending before the floor waiting for a vote. Most of them have been nominated for missions where strategic competition is most fierce. Most of this -- these are career nominees who are highly qualified experts. This committee works best when we work together.
▶ 0:32:23Chair Cardin: We believe in working together because we know it is the only way we are going to get work done on the floor of the senate. I urge my colleagues, let us come together for the sense of our strategic competition with the prc and are career ambassadors. Let us have hearings and career meetings or ambassadors pending. Secretary campbell, these are important issues and I look forward to your views on where we are cute -- doing well in where we have to do better.
▶ 0:32:53Chair Cardin: With that I turn it over to mike friend and our distinguished ranking member.
▶ 0:32:58Sen. Risch: Thank you. First of all, let me say that regarding the elections in venezuela, I share many of these concerns and we will be responding to it further. Certainly, it's a real concern. Secretary campbell, thank you for being here today.
▶ 0:33:19Sen. Risch: It's obvious to all the chinese ambitions are global and that they are reaping strategically from the chaos in europe. The spy post they have in cuba demonstrates a desire to target the and undermine our efforts to target the resources to compete with them in that said the administration wrongly insists that they are winning the competition with china. It's not so.
▶ 0:33:47Sen. Risch: The balance continues to move in china's favor. Their response to the chinese escalation against the philippines has been limited to verbal assurances with no concrete actions. Talking about a treaty without strong action only encourages china to further test U.S. resolve. In august we had not realized the promise, the bright promise of this partnership.
▶ 0:34:13Sen. Risch: It was supposed to be a game changer but our partnership has been prohibited from moving aggressively into reality. Europe yesterday I published a report that evaluated the policies that strengthened transatlantic unity on china. Across the board, especially on trade and african policy, the administration's record is dismal.
▶ 0:34:41Sen. Risch: China is tightening linkages with adversaries, the administration is doing almost nothing about it. China has provided material support to the russian war effort. Secretary blinken often repeats that 70% of machine tools and 90% of microelectronics used in russian weapons come from china. He's right. But the administration has not acted in proportion to the scale of these sins.
▶ 0:35:07Sen. Risch: Recent actions from some of these companies are ridiculously inadequate. Aggressively targeting china should be the top priority in U.S. sanctions policy. Mr. campbell, in your confirmation hearing, you assured me you understood the risks of inviting china in for the peace process with ukraine. You recall that, I'm sure.
▶ 0:35:32Sen. Risch: Since then, department officials have told us they must be at the table because their presence will somehow create daylight between it and russia. I find this preposterous. So, today I'm going to ask you what is our policy. Do you and the administration really believe that china should have a say in european security affairs? On iran, because of the failure of the administration to curb purchases of oil, new sanctions were placed on china in compliance with the law.
▶ 0:36:02Sen. Risch: To date, we haven't seen much of that. Despite these issues, the president welcomed xi to the united states in november. The biden harris administration agreed, without getting any reciprocal commitments, to facilitate chinese engagement on climate with state and local actors in the united states, even though china clearly uses this subnational diplomacy for their own malign purposes.
▶ 0:36:30Sen. Risch: The administration then supported the events at berkeley, university that has failed to report hundreds of millions in research funding from china. Last year I predicted that china would use new dilate -- dialogues to placate us. They do it by canceling arms control talks again. How did the state department respond? By publishing -- publishing -- our U.S.
▶ 0:36:57Sen. Risch: Nuclear stockpile totals so that xi knows that we are reducing capability while china grows. And of course, reciprocity was to follow but the only thing we did see from china was the usual sought -- spy proceedings to get the size of our U.S. nuclear stockpile. Ridiculous. This is not competing, it's pandering. We can't keep making these mistakes. China must be an american issue, not republican or democrat.
▶ 0:37:29Sen. Risch: Congress has tried for more than a year to negotiate on a bipartisan bill that efforts had failed because the administration and some appear love to talk about tougher policies but only talk and won't act to actually take tech -- actually take tough action.
▶ 0:37:45Sen. Risch: They don't want to limit the prc's money in foreign universities, they don't want to engage in dialogue to give china clear insight into these programs, and they support international energy policies that undermine our partner's economic realities he needs. Time for our government to wake up to the real challenges china presents and start taking concrete action.
▶ 0:38:11Sen. Risch: The days of admiring the problem from afar must be over and congress needs to update the foreign registration act, punished china for abusing diplomats, and advance real economic agendas with partners and oppose the growing cloud of china at the imf, and much more. It is past time to take a tougher line. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:38:34Chair Cardin: Thank you, senator . I noticed that we had a lot of interest for visitors to be in the committee room. We welcome that. This is an extremely important subject, we just cautioned that we cannot tolerate any disruptions of the hearing itself. You are allowed to be here and listen to the debate, but we ask that you respect the process of the committee. With that, let me introduce our witness for today.
▶ 0:39:02Chair Cardin: I have the honor of introducing senator -- secretary campbell. A well-known figure inside of the beltway when it comes to policy in the indo pacific, now serving as the deputy secretary of the department of state.
▶ 0:39:20Chair Cardin: He has served our country in a number of roles, including as assistant secretary for state, east asia pacific affairs from 2009 to 2013, and more recently as deputy us is at the national security council.
▶ 0:39:37Chair Cardin: He played a lead role in conceptualizing in august of the critical trilateral partnership between the U.S., australia, u.k., it has worked to strengthen and deepen relationships between the united states, japan, and south korea. Your full statement will be made a part of the record and you may proceed as you wish. Sec.
▶ 0:40:03Chair Cardin: Campbell chairman, ranking member, first of all let me thank you both and thank the committee for the confidence you have placed when I was firsto the job.
▶ 0:40:24Chair Cardin: I bet at the state department for five months and I thought it would be useful in terms of the context of the discussion today to give you a kind of update on these particular issues that we discussed with respect to global competition as it relates to china and let me do say that I appreciate the work of the committee has been largely bipartisan when it comes to china and the challenge it represents.
▶ 0:40:49Chair Cardin: I also really agree that the most intense regional arena for that is the indo pacific, ineasingly global and not limited to one area, it spans every area of american pursuit, strategic technology, business, military across the board, requiring a full and intense engagement on the part of the united states to match that challenge and I will say that
▶ 0:41:19Chair Cardin: The key ingredient in that is the bipartisan purpose but it is also working with allies and partners and I am proud of the fact I have worked closely across the aisle to build partnerships with key countries. Let me give you a few updates, if I can. First of all, I fully support what you have both said about venezuela. We have been in deep consultations with those countries in the region's.
▶ 0:41:51Chair Cardin: There is deep anxiety in the country and I promise you we will be in close consultation with you as we develop our plans of action in the time we have. A few things I have been directly involved in over the course of the last few months or so. A deep engagement with european partners.
▶ 0:42:08Chair Cardin: I deeply share the concern that the chinese support to russia, the russian defense industrial base, has not only changed the context of the conflict in ukraine, but it will be a long-term security challenge to the indo pacific. I share very much what senator risch said.
▶ 0:42:30Chair Cardin: The steps we have taken with respect to financial institutions, I would offer, I think that those steps are more significant than his widely understood, but the most important thing we need to do is to get our partners in europe behind the effort and I will note that you mentioned this, senator cardin, if you look at the statement of nato, this was the most far-reaching statement of concerns of european partners about what china is doing in
▶ 0:43:00Chair Cardin: Europe and I will tell you that the work we have done, you have done, others, the battle for hearts and minds in europe, the concerns that are rising about china's deeply provocative steps to support russia's war machine are bearing fruit. I also want to underscore that this is a recommendation from senator coons, I've been to africa twice now, two extended trips.
▶ 0:43:26Chair Cardin: This is the place where we need to step up our game substantially, meaning across the board. First and I was able to see the work of our development agencies in usaid.
▶ 0:43:40Chair Cardin: Very impressed by what they are doing on the ground but we need to do more and we have to contest the chinese actions not only in terms of their forward facing strategy, but their desire to go after africa in ways that are critical for our industrial and technological capabilities.
▶ 0:43:59Chair Cardin: I also promised the committee that I would do what I could to step up our diplomatic and overall game in the pacific and I have good news there, I think that by the end of this term we will have advanced substantially the number of diplomatic outposts offering aid and assistance across the pacific and I can go into that in greater detail.
▶ 0:44:23Chair Cardin: I can also just indicate that for me, the greatest vehicle for building a partnership that will be necessary is to advance partnerships around technology, which increasingly is what countries in the world and elsewhere are facing. Lastly, I would simply say that I'm trying to double down on our work in the indo pacific.
▶ 0:44:48Chair Cardin: You will have just seen historic developments in japan, stepping up our bilateral relationship. We have done a number of things in our unofficial relationship with taiwan that I'm happy to discuss.
▶ 0:45:02Chair Cardin: I would also say that I do believe that august is game changing and the number of steps being taken gives me confidence that this will be the most important strategic military engagement between the united states and australia, bringing britain into the context of what we are engaging with in the indo pacific.
▶ 0:45:24Chair Cardin: I would simply say to you guys who are looking for a scorecard, I cannot tell you exactly how to evaluate everything, but I can tell you that this will be never ending. We will have to invest substantial resources, build internal capacities within our government and institutions to contest everywhere.
▶ 0:45:47Chair Cardin: I do believe that the most important ingredient in what the biden administration has done is working with allies and partners in ways that I think our deeply consequential, building bridges between the pacific and europe. I stand by those efforts and hope they will continue and I deeply appreciate the support of this committee. Thank you, senator, sorry to go on longer.
▶ 0:46:12Chair Cardin: Thank, secretary campbell. We will now have five-minute rounds. Let me start, if I might. The way that we conduct our policy is different from china, they do there is based on transactional objectives, not based on values. President biden has made it clear that our foreign policy needs to be wrapped with our values.
▶ 0:46:40Chair Cardin: So, we promote democracy, good governance, respect for human rights. China uses corruption and threats to taiwan to carry out their foreign policy. As we develop our relationship with the prc, how do you balance our commitment to enhance the values that are foreign policy is based in, not just with our direct bilateral negotiations with china but with countries that are competing with china?
▶ 0:47:09Chair Cardin: How do we balance the advancement of our values critical to our national security with the realities we are dealing with, regimes who differ from us and are prepared to do things we find objectionable. Sec.
▶ 0:47:26Chair Cardin: Campbell center, great question, I think you understand the context very well -- senate -- secretary campbell: senator, great question, and you understand the question well. In countries like vietnam, even countries like india, close partners, there are occasionally challenges presented in terms of the conduct of domestic affairs.
▶ 0:47:53Chair Cardin: I think the truth in the united states is that it is just intrinsic that democrats and republicans raise issues of concern in every endeavor. I think that is critical. Most of our partners understand that and appreciate the need to address the issues that we raise.
▶ 0:48:15Chair Cardin: I will simply say that we cannot go back to a period where we play strategic interests at such a premium that we look the other way at egregious acts that cause concern to us. I don't think that has been done.
▶ 0:48:32Chair Cardin: I do think that almost every case the united states has been able to balance has been between strong foreign policy national security interests and our key inherent interests in defending democracy and human rights. Ultimately, what we are looking to do in some of these very challenging circumstances is to bend their trajectory.
▶ 0:48:57Chair Cardin: Sometimes slightly, sometimes transformational late, in directions that support freedom, support democracy, and close associations with like-minded
▶ 0:49:15Chair Cardin: Nations. I appreciate that -- like-minded nations.
▶ 0:49:19Chair Cardin: I appreciate that. We have had a hard time in pursuing these and we have done it with sanctions in which we investigated others that require you to personals actions as well as sectorial sanctions. You were additional ways that we can be helpful to advance global values in our relationships with other because she's.
▶ 0:49:50Chair Cardin: You have to set priorities, we have to set priorities. We have a limited amount of time left in this congress and I want to tell him that's why you to tell me how high of a priority is it for the U.S. senate to confirm these career ambassadors. If we do that it takes more time, committee time, other issues that we need to deal with, how high of a priority is it for you to represent us in the state department and for us to take up and confirm the vacant positions we have now in the state department.
▶ 0:50:20Sec. Campbell: So look, it's a good point and I want to underscore clearly your first issue. When congress, when senators engage internationally, it helps us enormously. To the us -- to the extent we have had any assistance, and it has been modest at best from china, it is largely because of delegations from congress, from the senate, going over, making the case powerfully that this is
▶ 0:50:51Sec. Campbell: Not just an executive branch issue, it's broadly shared with the american people. When senator shaheen was in britain recently engaging the new british government, they were able to hear directly by partisan interests for why the special relationship is so important. We are much more effective when you guys are engaged internationally.
▶ 0:51:17Sec. Campbell: I supported him very much want to see you guys on the playing field, it helps us consequentially. To your very good point, you know, I would say that top -- that politics is a tough game, take it out on us. I work with wonderful professionals and frankly, they deserve to be confirmed. Dorothy shea is in front of your committee now it has been waiting for almost two years.
▶ 0:51:45Sec. Campbell: The place where china is taking it to us is international organization. We have to be able to contest there. I don't like going to a country where we get down with the leader and we don't have an ambassador there and hasn't been one for a couple of years. It's embarrassing, it's antithetical to our strategic interests, so yes, I do believe we should put these folks on the field. Look, no one quarrels with strong military engagement.
▶ 0:52:14Sec. Campbell: We have to do that, we have to invest in the military, but sometimes there is a desire to undermine the importance in the global south of these organizations, particularly when these small countries in africa, they view the ambassador as the representative of the united states. Washington is distant. Getting those people in place is among one of our most important priorities.
▶ 0:52:43Chair Cardin: Sen. risch?
▶ 0:52:47Sen. Risch: . Thank you very much for being here. I always appreciate your understanding of the issues. At your confirmation hearing, we talked about inviting china into the peace process with ukraine. You express your agreement with me that this wasn't a good idea, which was an understatement. Conversations on the committee have been about china needing to be at the table.
▶ 0:53:18Sen. Risch: I'm assuming that like a lot of things that is in complete agreement. How hard are we going to have to push to get this? It seems our european partners get this and for whatever reason, the place where you work doesn't seem to. So, help me out.
▶ 0:53:36Sec. Campbell: Thank you, senator. To be honest, I'm not aware of the consultations you have had and I will generally say that any kind of discussion like that is premature. The dominant arena of engagement is on the battlefield. I see no sign of russians in any way easing up on the brutal offensives with ukraine.
▶ 0:54:01Sec. Campbell: If you signal to early your interest in getting to the negotiating table, I think it sends the wrong message, it's a signal of weakness more generally. Ultimately, I had extensive discussions with your team about this.
▶ 0:54:19Sec. Campbell: Senator, I would say I found those arguments quite persuasive and I am personally troubled by china's actions publicly stating that we are in favor of peace, not taking sides, but privately providing support for their industrial base in ways that will change the balance of military power. Not just in ukraine, senator, but europe for decades to come.
▶ 0:54:49Sec. Campbell: I find them troubling and they need to be accounted for more directly. I believe that the united states with key partners in europe need to play the dominant role if we find ourselves in a situation like we hope for where we can arrive at a just peace with ukraine and russia. We are nowhere near that right now, senator. So, talk about what the nature of the table looks like and who is sitting around it? That's premature.
▶ 0:55:18Sen. Risch: It seems to me that europeans, and the rest of the world, made a huge mistake with russia in recent decades thinking that they were something that they weren't in now the prices being paid for that. The problem is that some people are making the same mistake with china, thinking they are something they are not.
▶ 0:55:40Sen. Risch: Your observation that that mistake could carry consequences goes across generations and I agree 100%. I think that europeans, because of the experience they had with russia, are very reluctant to make the same mistake. And china has now updated their own experience where they have really, really woken up europeans to what they are doing as far as china is concerned.
▶ 0:56:10Sen. Risch: Congress recently passed bipartisan legislation to sanction them for the oil purchases. There was a lot of enthusiasm up here on the hill for that. I'm not seeing the same enthusiasm from the administration, which is surprising, because we, when we talk about sanctions, treasury always pushes back. We appear to be a little bit more ready to draw the weapon and use it. Your thoughts?
▶ 0:56:41Sec. Campbell: We have engaged on this quite a bit and I understand and take your points to heart. I would point out, and you have heard it so many times, the hundreds of other sanctions who taken more directly, I do think, and I will just state clearly that iran is an implacable foe of the united states and must be contested everywhere. Not just in the middle east, not just with respect to these.
▶ 0:57:14Sec. Campbell: Increasingly the role they are also playing on the battlefield in ukraine. So, I take that very seriously and I understand the points. Sanctions policy, as you underscored, is complex. There are often concerns about the steps you might take in a financial arena they could have secondary or tertiary effects.
▶ 0:57:37Sec. Campbell: I don't mean that as an excuse, but I think we have taken consequential steps and I need to take back to the building a specific set of recommendations you carry. I want to point is something you raise that the outset. Europe has had two manger -- two major challenges.
▶ 0:58:03Sec. Campbell: Many of these countries had hoped for a deeper economic and commercial relationship with china and I will tell you that after substantial discussions in my previous job and at this job, europeans understand the risks. They are coming around and we are working much more consequently with them. Not just on russia, but china as well.
▶ 0:58:25Chair Cardin: Senator coons?
▶ 0:58:34Senator Coons: Thank you for investing your time in going to the african continent can see this critical sphere of competition and potential conflict between the U.S. and china. First asking about partners and allies, I think that the biden leadership and responding to russian ukrainian aggression, pulling together and expanding nato, mobilizing 50 countries in the indo pacific to support ukraine, that has been critical.
▶ 0:59:04Senator Coons: How relevant is it to our global competition with china that we continue to support ukraine, that we send a strg and consistent bipartisan message that when we say we are with you ukraine, we mean it.
▶ 0:59:19Sec. Campbell: Thanks, senator, and thank you for your leadership on this. I will simply say that before the state visit, there was an opportunity for them to appear before congress and give them the nature of the address. In surprise people that the number one issue that he raised and asked congress to do was to stand by ukraine, to continue the job.
▶ 0:59:48Sec. Campbell: It does suggest -- we think of these as separate theaters, but we should not. They are strategically aligned. Everyone in the indo pacific is watching how ukraine turns out. The united states, standing firmly with allies and partners, unequivocal in our support for ukraine, gives courage and a sense of determination to our allies and partners.
▶ 1:00:17Senator Coons: In my recent visit to taiwan, I got exactly the same sense. Yes, standing firm with the philippines is critical for the region, but if we step back and inch from supporting ukraine, it sends a stronger message that there is a real risk in the elections this fall the message will go out that we have national leaders that don't support ukraine.
▶ 1:00:42Sec. Campbell: I also wanted to personally thank you for the encouragement to engage directly in africa. I've been on the job five months and been to africa twice and I will go a third time. I will tell you quite directly, it's the part of my job I feel the strongest about and am most committed to. I've asked for the support of this group. I would say that we need more in a couple of different arenas.
▶ 1:01:10Sec. Campbell: More in terms of our ability, more congressional visits. You would be amazed at how much some of these countries appreciate. I've got to just tell you, africa right now, we have 14 nominations waiting for folks across the continent. I would simply say that I think it helps us up in terms of really making the case for americans.
▶ 1:01:37Sen. Coons: Let me pick a relatively obscure one, east what teeny, still maintaining relations with taiwan without the prc, we don't have an ambassador, we haven't had an investor, there've been major challenges around human rights. This is true across a dozen other, 14 to be specific, major countries across the continent. Russia is there, china is there.
▶ 1:02:06Sen. Coons: The scope of the chinese trade with africa has increased tenfold in my time here. Ours is now just 48 billion. How important is the timely reauthorization of the use of the tools in africa?
▶ 1:02:25Sec. Campbell: I think it's critical. There's a lot of gamesmanship about whether or not to wait, but I would get it done.
▶ 1:02:33Sen. Coons: Before I run out of time, we just moved out of the appropriations committee with a strong bipartisan vote that includes investment in the countering p.r.c. Influence fund and significant aid for ukraine for the coming year. Not what they need, but hundreds of millions of dollars. It includes a new fund that allows treasury to leverage the development banks that will unlock more than $400 billion.
▶ 1:03:04Sen. Coons: In your higher standard investment of infrastructure, we can directly compete on the continent and around the world. It invests in our workforce at the u.n. With all of the different entities where the chinese have grown and grown and grown in influence.
▶ 1:03:23Sen. Coons: When we say we need to have it and must have a foreign policy that reflects our values, whether it is in the caribbean, the global south, africa, it's important to stand up for democracy and human rights but it is also important to combat corruption. One of the biggest features of the chinese foreign policy is purchasing and extending their influence through corruption. The average person in the global south sees the resources of their country being stolen to benefit their national leaders.
▶ 1:03:54Sen. Coons: The fight for critical minerals and supply chains is essential and it is one area we cannot neglect.
▶ 1:04:01Sen. Coons: I agree with everything that you have said. I will say that I was in senegal a few weeks ago and was probably able to go to a project site that was just being launched, back by the dnc. For those who don't understand why that is important, most financing projects from china, they bring in their own laborers in don't allow for much training. They are secretive.
▶ 1:04:32Sen. Coons: There is a lot of corruption. This particular project all senegalese based workers, capacity building, everything, this was our partnership with them. We struggle there sometimes to build influence in's -- in french africa for substantial commitment.
▶ 1:05:00Sen. Coons: I want to fully support the ability to leverage financing at the dnc and also do debt backed finance. Incredibly important. This is a very good use of capital and engagement.
▶ 1:05:15Sen. Coons: Thank you.
▶ 1:05:17Chair Cardin: Let me just observe, I think you both for your work on the appropriations issues, but what you have been given, particularly the usaid numbers, there were cuts this year. That's unfortunate. It's just not a large enough pie . Thank you for the work that you do. Senator young?
▶ 1:05:46Senator Young: Thank you, chairman. I wanted to touch on the threat of having ambassadors in place. Unbecoming of a great and inded and inded injurious to our foreign policy.
▶ 1:06:06Senator Young: If we cannot somehow persuade colleagues to, to use the top rank in the existing rules, maybe we need to change the rules. Something that has been discussed for a long amount of time. I would encourage them and others who listening to give this another run as we approach the end of the year and to see if we can improve the situation moving forward. Mr.
▶ 1:06:33Senator Young: Secretary, I am so and in the p.r.c. Continues to be defined as a developing country. Defined by international financial institutions, development banks, hampering our ability of getting china to be able to pay its fair share to multilateral institutions, ensuring their access to the
▶ 1:07:06Senator Young: Generous loans in financial terms from these institutions that they shouldn't have. It presents a normative challenge. They refused to demonstrate the leadership that a global power would. They won all the benefits of being a global power, but they don't want to look for the same sort of work and resources we would expect of a global power. What do we do about this?
▶ 1:07:35Senator Young: How are we trying to deal with the hypocrisy of them not really being a developing country, but they claim that status, and are there steps that we can take here in congress or in the administration that have not yet been exploited to strip them of this developing nation status?
▶ 1:07:55Sec. Campbell: First of all, before I answer the question, I wanted to thank you and commend you, senator. The most important thing we have been able to do is understand that the high ground, the strategic high ground necessary for us to continue to command is in technology and I don't think we would have been able to do this -- you taught me a lot. I tried to extend that not only into what we're doing domestically but internationally with partners.
▶ 1:08:27Sec. Campbell: It's a hugely consequential area that we need to do more on and I just thank you for your leadership on this. You said it perfectly. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot demand to be a great power and then in certain circumstances say I'm just a developing country. We have sought will form certain issues in the banks and financial institutions. We need more help along the road .
▶ 1:08:55Sec. Campbell: My biggest concern, senator, is not the china is not providing resources globally. They do, but they are outside of these institutions. They are doing it in a bilateral contacts where they can extract a quid pro quo. They are doing it outside of the appropriate mechanisms that allow for a degree of transparency that we think is essential.
▶ 1:09:20Sec. Campbell: So, I think that simply making the case more in international financial institutions about the challenges that this presents, the world bank, the ebrd, the asian development bank, it's an essential fight that we need to frankly raise the awareness on more substantially. Well, -- Sen.
▶ 1:09:43Sec. Campbell: Young: well, we have a role to play there, as do all of our diplomats. We will continue to focus on this important area. With respect to technology and green energy, we need critical minerals. I'm glad it's something you brought up in the opening comments.
▶ 1:10:02Sec. Campbell: If we cannot get them through the deep-sea beds by ratifying the law of the sea treaty that looks to be a challenge based on current circumstances, then we should look to africa, which is where the preponderance of these minerals are.
▶ 1:10:17Sec. Campbell: How can we help to foster public-private partnerships in bringing american capital and expertise and standards to africa so that we can keep exploiting -- so that we can -- exploring where we get these minerals.
▶ 1:10:36Sec. Campbell: So, if you look at a balance sheet of the top 40 trace elements and minerals necessary for batteries, or for semi conductors, the vast lions share of those supplies are now controlled by china. We start behind the eight ball.
▶ 1:10:59Sec. Campbell: We have got to -- we were late in understanding that while we were playing a globalized game, the chinese were basically cornering markets. Now, we have responded with a number of arrangements with specific countries. We have a critical minerals agreement with japan and australia and have worked with other countries in africa to help us in this context.
▶ 1:11:24Sec. Campbell: I would simply say that this is a very -- these mines are often dirty, the process is challenging. It will take resourcing. We have to do it more with allies and partners and frankly we have to scour the globe. It won't just be africa. It's mongolia and countries in southeast asia. It will be our intent to continue to prosecute this.
▶ 1:11:52Sen. Young: I did not support the inflation reduction act but the reason that we pursued the chips and science act with a handful of republican colleagues joining me on that effort was in part for purposes of economic resiliency. The inflation reduction act took the opposite approach. We have become far more dependent on these upstream political inputs.
▶ 1:12:19Sen. Young: I think that was never seriously wrestled with before we took the approach here to mitigating climate change. Thank you. >> thank you. Senator murphy?
▶ 1:12:32Senator Murphy: Two pieces I wanted to address. First, chinese strategy and transnational aggression. They have greatly expanded their effort abroad with the chinese diaspora. They have a host of tools, deporting individuals back to china, detaining individuals, spying on dissident, threatening them, blackmailing them.
▶ 1:13:05Senator Murphy: They will execute on that threat as well. What is the state department doing to help nations resist the pressure to detain or deport dissidents and to protect the freedom of speech and assembly here in the united states that china is threatening with chinese diaspora?
▶ 1:13:32Sec. Campbell: Senator merkley, extremely well worded and concise and exact challenge that we are facing. The most important first step that we have sought to do is to help countries understand the nature of the problem. You would be surprised at how may countries until they examined the circumstances inside of their own borders were unaware of some of the challenges.
▶ 1:14:02Sec. Campbell: Even the united states has taken time to fully understand what has taken place and and among chinese language speaking diaspora communities. We worked with a number of countries to understand the nature of this transnational challenge. We have helped countries strengthen a variety of law enforcement and other steps to assist them in contesting the is actions.
▶ 1:14:30Sec. Campbell: We have been very principled and direct in our diplomacy with china. I will simply say that this is a challenge that is not just a few countries. We have seen it in canada, australia, united states, new zealand, australia. The other parts of europe.
▶ 1:14:55Sec. Campbell: The ability to compare notes and strategies about how to contest and identify it has been important.
▶ 1:15:02Sen. Merkley: Thank you. The freedom house documented it in 36 countries so it really is spreading in an effort to shape how they are viewed around the world. A narrow -- another area where china has expanded its influences in the united nations they have proceeded to increase their contributions and increase their support for peace teams from the united nations. Peacekeepers.
▶ 1:15:35Sen. Merkley: They have gotten more chinese nationals into leadership positions. And they are trying to change the dialogue around human rights. In terms of the universal periodic review this last january there was false information about many actions in china.
▶ 1:16:01Sen. Merkley: They blocked independent civil society representatives from providing information and suppressed the mention of political, civil and religious rights in u.n. Resolutions and debates. They are trying to convey philosophy that human rights are country specific and there is no universal human right. Whatever the country decides that is what human rights are.
▶ 1:16:26Sen. Merkley: We have been really a voice in the world to identify and promote the vision of fundamental human rights. This is a contest for ideas and chinese influence in the u.n. Is part of that. What is our strategy?
▶ 1:16:45Sec. Campbell: You have identified it exactly and this is part of a coherent strategy of china redefining what democracy and human rights means. They have done that substantially in international organizations, particularly in places like the united nations. Their ultimate goal I think is to step up the game substantially in the global south. That is where they are playing for advantage.
▶ 1:17:16Sec. Campbell: I would simply say that is the arena if you ask me where do we need to do much more. I am proud and satisfied, the work will never be done but the work that we have done in europe and dominant partners in the indo pacific, I think the partnership with india is robust and critical. I think it is probably one of our most important partnerships for the 21st century. Where we really need to step up our game is the global south.
▶ 1:17:46Sec. Campbell: That means on the field, in these various countries with robust programming, dfc, our diplomats. It also means understanding the nature of the challenge in organizations like the united nations like -- where the action is increasingly not in the security council but the general assembly.
▶ 1:18:11Sec. Campbell: That is where china is manifesting a strategy and we need to understand how important that arena is for us going forward.
▶ 1:18:20Sen. Merkley: Thank you very much. >> thank you senator merkley, senator rubio.
▶ 1:18:26Sen. Rubio: Thank you for being here, one of the issues that make it such a unique competitor and adversary in many ways is that unlike the soviet union they are not just a military and diplomatic adversary they are a technological, industrial, and commercial adversary.
▶ 1:18:47Sen. Rubio: I do think that challenges us in our foreign policy apparatus to combine commerce, trade, and technological matters with geopolitics, which are clearly important. They have always been important the technological and industrial high ground has been a precursor of industrial power.
▶ 1:19:07Sen. Rubio: When you look at what china has achieved they were in none of the cutting edge fields but today they dominate the electrical vehicle market and this is a challenge because they are threatening to dump the cars and even a charade -- eviscerate automakers beyond electric cars outside of china. They are dominant in energy fields, particularly 80% of the global supply chain for solar.
▶ 1:19:36Sen. Rubio: They are technologically a leader in nuclear power in ways that have surpassed our own. And despite the electric cars and nuclear power leadership and are also the world's largest polluter. I think the things that are going to the heart power is they are the world's leading shipbuilder and they are building aircraft carriers and this lead of lng ships and cruise ships.
▶ 1:20:03Sen. Rubio: We understand that shipbuilding is at the core of the ability to project power not just literary but commercial. They are the undisputed king of steel and cement. These do not have netflix miniseries about steel, cement or shipbuilding these are at the core of national power and used to be at the core of our national power. So, how does that fit?
▶ 1:20:28Sen. Rubio: This whole view of the domination that we are establishing within our broader confines of something that is not simply military or diplomatic and how are we melting that into strategy because some will require for us to lean heavily into our assets and make sure that our allies in some sort of consortium fashion are not just protecting domestic injuries but the existence of non-chinese communist party sources of steel, cement and
▶ 1:20:59Sen. Rubio: Shipbuilding. The other field -- and other fields they see domination in. How does that into this broader construction of our strategic approach?
▶ 1:21:10Sec. Campbell: Senator, I accept and deeply support that general worldview that you just laid out. I would add one or two things. There is a huge debate in intellectual foreign policy, whether this is another cold war, right?
▶ 1:21:33Sec. Campbell: The one thing I worry about sometimes about that debate is that when you say cold war it conjures up views of the struggle that we had with the soviet union, which as you described is really monochromatic. It was really in a couple of different sectors. In truth our economies were not inked at all in any way.
▶ 1:21:57Sec. Campbell: One of the biggest challenges for the united states as it constructs a strategy and I will try to answer the second part of your question is that there are very few countries more interdependent than the united states and china. At the same time there are very few countries uncomfortable with that interdependence. We are taking steps to ease and remove elements of that connectivity, financially, and you factoring lines of communication.
▶ 1:22:28Sec. Campbell: That is one of the biggest challenges, how do you take steps that do not hurt your own economy. The point that you make eye could not agree with you more. As I look in government it is just about surveying a list of challenges. How do you figure out what to do about that.
▶ 1:22:46Sec. Campbell: If I would ask that the two things that we really need to get our act together on, naval shipbuilding both surface ships but submarines as well. When I came into the white house I thought and still do believe that the submarine program is the jewel in the crown.
▶ 1:23:10Sec. Campbell: But one of the things that became clear looking at all caps -- aukus and how much more we had to invest in our own industrial base just to get subs back in the water in dry dock -- that are in dry dock. We have to do better. There is a lot of reasons why shipbuilding is challenging.
▶ 1:23:33Sec. Campbell: We have strong shipbuilding in the worth east and we do not have enough workers and we do not have enough capacity. Generally there are 1000 reasons why naval shipbuilding is challenging. I would like us to think that there might be ways to work with allies and partners. It is extremely difficult. A lot of domestic legislation. When I look at the balance sheet, you went through several things.
▶ 1:24:02Sec. Campbell: The one thing you did not mention but you think about it often and I have heard you speak about it. Look at the difference in shipbuilding between the united states and china, we concerning. We have to do better or we will not the great naval power that we need to be for the 21st century. One last thing, the 20 year engagement in the middle east was about ground forces arm -- army and special forces.
▶ 1:24:32Sec. Campbell: We made all of the appropriate investments. A modernized and innovative. Now is the navy and air force. They have to step up and they have to invest more and they have to be more innovative and intrepid and they have to understand that the no pacific arena requires the most capable naval and advanced long-range air capabilities that the united states has ever needed before. That is where we have to put our focus.
▶ 1:25:03Sec. Campbell: I did not mean to go on for so long.
▶ 1:25:05Chair Cardin: Senator schatz.
▶ 1:25:08Sen. Schatz: Thank you for being here and I want to talk about certain valence in the internet of things. As you know that p.r.c. Is exporting facial recognition ai technology, enabling repression from ecuador to kenyatta pakistan. This has he -- to kenya and pakistan.
▶ 1:25:31Sen. Schatz: This is one of the spaces where they are building partnerships for surveillance and controlling the domestic political situation and it is not obvious to me to provide an alternative. It will not be like we say use our company for ai and surveillance and repression. This is an area of expansion economic and political for the prc. I am wondering how you see it and what we should be doing.
▶ 1:25:58Sec. Campbell: Pray while and first of all thank you. I appreciate the question. Pray while there was a big debate does china have a model of development or government -- governance that they are promoting that is comparable to their own. And lots of debates about that for years.
▶ 1:26:21Sec. Campbell: But now it becomes clear that there are certain ingredients to authoritarian leadership that they are promoting in a variety of the countries that you mentioned. I would add the solomons, frankly elements of afghanistan and as part of that is that they often support a vulnerable elite in power.
▶ 1:26:45Sec. Campbell: They provide assistant they provide assistance said that leading group and the people around it, and praetorian support through police and others to be protected from domestic threats. And they provide technological capacities.
▶ 1:27:05Sen. Schatz: The bad news is that is a good value proposition so what do we do about it?
▶ 1:27:10Sec. Campbell: And I will give you that the value proposition is that we have to be purposeful about recognizing how challenging it is to make the argument about why democratic institutions, and free and fair elections and support to governments that emerge through that process. A lot of times and I will give you a classic example.
▶ 1:27:37Sec. Campbell: We have a new legal -- leader in senegal and we are extremely hopeful that he has raised expectations and now we will have to see if we can help meet them as he goes against both forces in his own countries and others that would seek to advance this authoritarian model. And so, I cannot tell you, senator that there is a perfect answer to every situation.
▶ 1:28:06Sec. Campbell: But I will tell you that I have been to many of these countries and that model is often domestically and extremely unpopular. And if we are able to work with key groups in various countries, we can put up an effective challenge.
▶ 1:28:23Sen. Schatz: I think you are right that it is unpopular and a lot of times it is a trap and it takes some time for the leader to figure out that it is a trap and they will be under the thumb of a country overseas. And then they come back to us and they are a little bit more willing to dialogue.
▶ 1:28:41Sec. Campbell: Two things. That is right and I will give you an example. When china negotiates these foreign-baseing, they described them as a little kind of dock here. Before long, local authorities opposed nations are unable to get on the bases. They are not able to actually control their own territory. That is number one.
▶ 1:29:10Sec. Campbell: Number two is that delta and road has-beens -- belt and road has been substantial but many of the processes in terms of financing the bill is coming due. These were not gifts. And some of the concessional loans are substantial and they have real interest payments and the chinese are not interested in renegotiating and we can use that to our advantage.
▶ 1:29:36Sen. Schatz: Just a quick final question. We as a country started to be alert to belt and road, and I think it precipitated a lot of smart foreign policy. On the other hand there is part of me that that what china did was two things, debt trap diplomacy and the things you are talking about and simply overpromising.
▶ 1:30:01Sen. Schatz: We need to get in the habit of not talking about felt and road -- belt and road as not a perfect strategy but an overextension or overreach that we can take advantage of.
▶ 1:30:13Sec. Campbell: I agree with that.
▶ 1:30:15Chair Cardin: Senator shaheen.
▶ 1:30:18Sen. Shaheen: Thank you chairman and deputy secretary for being here today. Senator kaine and I information hearing at the armed services committee on the presentation on the commission on our national defense strategy. They said two things that I think are relevant. First, we are facing the most dangerous global environment at any time since the end of world war ii.
▶ 1:30:44Sen. Shaheen: Second, we need an approach that coordinates all elements of our national power which is part of the discussion that we have heard. And I just want to, at the risk of beating a dead issue, I want to go back to the nominations and I'm sorry that the colleagues on the others of the aisle are not here because china continues to prioritize diplomatic engagement and ambassadors around the world, particularly in the global south.
▶ 1:31:13Sen. Shaheen: And yet we cannot get our ambassadors approved, even the career ambassadors. Not just in africa and south america, but also in places like albania and montenegro and western balkans.
▶ 1:31:33Sen. Shaheen: Many in albania see it as a direct affront that we student -- still do not have an ambassador after they have been willing to take afghans when they needed to evacuate afghanistan, one day we -- and when they were willing to take iranians to help us out. And we still have the career ambassador albania and montenegro being held up on the other of the aisle.
▶ 1:32:00Sen. Shaheen: Senator barrasso I am glad you got here because this is a conversation important to everybody. I would echo what you had to say about dorothy shea who I had the good fortune to work with. She is the reason I believe we were able to get out a new hampshire citizen being held, detained by the lebanese government for months. He got cancer while in detention.
▶ 1:32:28Sen. Shaheen: To have a career ambassador like dorothy shea being held up for partisan political reasons is antithetical to the national security of the united states. So, is this not a concession to the prc that we should never be making?
▶ 1:32:43Sec. Campbell: I could not agree more with that. Let me say it was great to see you in london. I also appreciated meeting your husband. We are going to the celtics game, I am sorry there are only two tickets. That is the way it is going to be. To your question I want to say that the fact -- the effect that it has on the morale of the people that I work with.
▶ 1:33:11Sec. Campbell: You know, if you are in government or kind of walk down the street and you are a military officer, every single person tells you thank you for your service. Almost every week I get a letter from someone who is somewhat surprised that a foreign service officer has helped them in a time of difficulty. When they are ill or something.
▶ 1:33:40Sec. Campbell: They write a note they are like I am surprised by this like I do not know why am. This person went beyond the call to help me and my family in their time of need. And I think there is a tendency not to recognize the unbelievable competence and patriotism of these people. And no one tells them thank you for your service. I think we should do that for the military folks, absolutely.
▶ 1:34:10Sec. Campbell: But we need to recognize that these people are often working in harm's way with lesser resources. You see them the yourself, you are out there traveling. As I tried to say, there are often real issues, take it out on the political people and on me. The career people deserve to be able to serve. When I meet with them and it has been two years I do not have a good answer.
▶ 1:34:38Sec. Campbell: And it makes me feel like I cannot do my job persuading people that I respect to get on with this and move this on. Trust me, there is not one country where we are contesting china and we have a strong ambassador in china does not have someone. They are out there and we need more people.
▶ 1:34:57Sen. Shaheen: I could not agree more. I have a question about china, just with a little bit of time that I have left. As we look at the potential for an expansion of a broader war in the middle east with israel targeting southern lebanon because of the horrible acts of hezbollah, where is china going to come down on this? What role will they play?
▶ 1:35:24Sec. Campbell: So I will say this, senator. This is a horrible tragic war, there were a lot of concerns about how china's influence has grown. Yes, they have played a role between saudi arabia and iran. You will note that since the conflict has begun, tragic and horrible, the country that people called to be engaged directly is the united states. China is largely absent.
▶ 1:35:55Sec. Campbell: Their engagement has been shallow. I would say I do not believe that they do not want to see an enlargement of the war. They are worried about the potential for excavation but at the same -- escalation, but at the same time they have not weighed in with their diplomatic might with the situation with the hutsi, or next -- or expansion to iran they have
▶ 1:36:28Sec. Campbell: Moved in in certain influent -- in certain instances but not with great power. I would expect them to do more and we continue to call on them and other countries to make sure that their voices are failed. I do acknowledge that this is an extremely delicate and worrisome time and secretary blinken is on this long trip through the indo pacific and on the phone every night with the countries in
▶ 1:37:00Sec. Campbell: Latin america to basically figure out our best way forward on venezuela. He is also working the phones in the middle east to prevent an escalation and move us towards a hostage exchange and a better set of circumstances in gaza.
▶ 1:37:16Sen. Shaheen: Thank you.
▶ 1:37:17Chair Cardin: Senator barrasso.
▶ 1:37:20Sen. Barrasso: Thank you for being here today. We had a briefing last week that many attended on who is helping and who is helping russia and what roles there are and I wanted to go along that area of questioning because I am concerned about china's support for our adversaries. It is clear that china is helping russia and iran evade U.S. sanctions.
▶ 1:37:48Sen. Barrasso: Oil revenues are propping up the russian and iranian economies and they get to buy at a discount. I view china using russia as a wrecking ball. Iran is exporting one point 3 million barrels of oil to china every day when there are supposed to be sanctions in place.
▶ 1:38:13Sen. Barrasso: The treasury secretary says he cannot do anything more but "the new york times" pointed out just the sanctions being evaded. The chinese communist party providing the materials and components that russia and iran need to wage wars. It seems that the administration has failed to prevent china from purchasing russian and iranian energy resources. Do you agree.
▶ 1:38:36Sec. Campbell: Let me underscore that I completely accept your proposition. Increasingly we are seeing a group of nations, the nations of actors that are challenging the united states and its partners globally. That includes china, iran, north korea, occasionally others associated with the effort.
▶ 1:39:00Sec. Campbell: My own sense is that the most important arena that we need to contest that frankly is currently in ukraine. You mentioned this but what china has done in supporting the russian defensive industrial base is a subject of deep concern. We have sanctioned hundreds of firms but the most important are around financial institutions.
▶ 1:39:25Sec. Campbell: I would just have you noticed that if you look at the trajectory that europe has traveled in just eight to 10 months, eight to 10 months ago no mention of what china is doing in russia. Look at the nato statements that took place in washington with many senators supporting that effort in being deeply engaged in the 75th anniversary.
▶ 1:39:50Sec. Campbell: Increasingly europe is on side and taking their own steps with respect to sanctions. I believe that this is an arena that our efforts are paying off. I think that it is absolutely clear what you are describing, this association between russia, north korea, china and iran increasingly and purposely challenging us everywhere.
▶ 1:40:20Sec. Campbell: I think that our primary answer, yes we have taken sanctions. But the most important thing that we have done is build a comparable group of allied nations working together. I would simply say not only is nato probably stronger than before. You have to give credit to the previous administration focusing on investing in the military, and we have followed through.
▶ 1:40:49Sec. Campbell: A lot of countries are now at 2%, well over half approaching two thirds. It is deeply important. The connections between the europe and the indo pacific, what countries are supporting ukraine to the hilt. Japan, south korea, australia. This is unprecedented and that is largely through the support and encouragement of the united states.
▶ 1:41:16Sec. Campbell: I would simply say that the best remedy to the challenges that you have described is our ability to work with allies and partners. Earlier we talked about bringing new partners into the fray, countries like india, vietnam and others in southeast asia. I am proud of the work done in the philippines but this is something we have to contest across the board.
▶ 1:41:40Sen. Barrasso: Let me just add because I agree with what we are saying and I agree that china is the puppetmaster pulling the strings in iran and north korea and russia and the concern is that our involvement in the number of locations around the world whether it is in ukraine and israel that this is an effort to ultimately have us engaged in a number of places and make it easier for them to take taiwan which I believe is one of their goals.
▶ 1:42:09Sec. Campbell: I would just say this, the relationship between these authoritarian countries is very complex. And I would only offer to you is do not underestimate russian agency. Putin is a master at playing we can do. He has his -- playing the weak hand. He has his own interests and is good at maneuvering china.
▶ 1:42:37Sec. Campbell: Each are playing and suddenly -- subtly trying to advance their interests. For the united states we need to understand that our associations are people to people, a large consensus of the people that elect the leadership. These countries are animated by leaders who are distrustful, often deeply and subtly maneuvering against each other. I will give you an example.
▶ 1:43:08Sec. Campbell: China and russia are competing for influence in north korea. China is anxious about some of the steps that russia has taken. China is competing with russia in the arctic. It does not mean that there is a division or goals, -- gulf, but it means there is a complex diplomacy among these various countries and we have to keep this in mind as we construct our own diplomacy.
▶ 1:43:38Chair Cardin: Senator murphy.
▶ 1:43:41Sen. Murphy: . Good to see you Mr. secretary. I will ask you one on disinformation and one on china in the middle east. One of the most effective security tools is propaganda and misinformation. Their investment dwarfs the investment that the united states makes. It looks like they are spending $7 billion per year.
▶ 1:44:05Sen. Murphy: The united states does some of this work through the department of defense but inside the department of state -- exists the global engagement center which is founded at $61 million. But in the last decade they have done extraordinary work to track chinese misinformation and to help local actors be able to fight back. Global engagement center is set to expire, the authorization, at the end of this year.
▶ 1:44:35Sen. Murphy: What would be the impact if we lost the capacity to coordinate with allies and fund efforts in and around the chinese theater to combat chinese misinformation if we lost the authorization for the global engagement center?
▶ 1:44:49Sec. Campbell: Let me say that some of the work that the gec has done is deeply innovative and helpful to american purpose. And I commend the work under jamie rubin, the leader of the organization, and others who work underneath him.
▶ 1:45:09Sec. Campbell: I will say that what it has done that has made a difference in a number of places is simply illuminating the strategies, actors, and strategy that both china and russia have undertaken. These countries' ability to manipulate and maneuver is done largely out of public view. When you expose it, it can be quite purposeful and effective.
▶ 1:45:39Sec. Campbell: I would simply say that you are absolutely right, it is a small amount of money with a little bit of dod working but the challenge is enormous. When I was asked to go to the solomons to contest but the chinese were doing, I remember waking up in the morning and getting the local newspaper.
▶ 1:46:00Sec. Campbell: On the cover right after the war had started in ukraine was a long story about the chemical and biological weapons facility is that the united states maintained in ukraine. Clearly effective russia and chinese disinformation. And we have to do a better job contesting this. A first step would be the gec reauthorized.
▶ 1:46:25Sec. Campbell: I think that the gec has done more on russia than china it is stepping up substantially.
▶ 1:46:32Sen. Murphy: In the last year and a half, 22 different reports produced by the gec specifically naming chinese property and up efforts -- propaganda efforts. Let me turn to the gulf.
▶ 1:46:52Sen. Murphy: Obviously, we have had a number of conversations about the administration's conversation to extending a security decree to saudi arabia which would impact our applications towards all of our gulf allies. I want to ask you about the future of goals cooperation -- gulk cooperation -- gulf cooperation with china.
▶ 1:47:17Sen. Murphy: Allies are seeking to have it both ways, playing the united states off again china and there is evidence of that, saudi arabia's massive investment in the leading chinese ai company contrary to national security interests. The ongoing maturation of uae defense relationship with china. I guess I have two simple questions on this portfolio.
▶ 1:47:45Sen. Murphy: One, do you agree that a security treaty with a country like saudi arabia only makes sense if the china policies are aligned and two, is there any reason to be optimistic that the gulf nations are going to do anything other than play the united states and china against each other to get the best deals that they can get an economic investment security relationships and etc..
▶ 1:48:12Sec. Campbell: This is an important question. When we are talking about some of these fundamental decisions security guarantees substantial investments in technology. We often say do not ask countries to choose, but we want them to have choice in certain circumstances where we are putting our stuff on the line whether technology or the commitment to support you, I am
▶ 1:48:42Sec. Campbell: Afraid it is a binary choice and we would have to insist on that going forward. I will say that the middle east is complicated. There was a period not long ago where israel had deep engagements with china and the united states and has chosen to engage directly with united states because they understand the nature of what they were doing have implications for their own security given china's other actions.
▶ 1:49:13Sec. Campbell: I do not want to go through a taxonomy of each country. My guess is that we will have more luck with some than others. Ultimately the process of this all rests on other issues being resolved. And it is enormously challenging. And I do think that we are right to try and contest but we also need to be clear that we have real advantages.
▶ 1:49:42Sec. Campbell: The technology and security guarantee must not be given lightly and we must demand many things in response.
▶ 1:49:48Chair Cardin: Senator kaine.
▶ 1:49:50Sen. Kaine: Secretary campbell good to have you. A comment and two questions. It is in response to an earlier question where you talked about the importance of focusing on the global south and we should, africa and the americas, 32 of the 35 youngest countries in africa and the population growth along with a lot of other factors make it an important area of strategic focus.
▶ 1:50:19Sen. Kaine: And the americas, the challenges at the border and fentanyl and every day american's concerns about the globe are often issues related to the americas and political instability there. And yet we say that a lot but we are not doing it. The article one branch, we have to own the absence of confirmed basset errors, more than 20 openings in the americas and africa.
▶ 1:50:51Sen. Kaine: I just came from the 2022 national defense strategy. It has one paragraph about the entire western hemisphere, not much more about africa. We are actually reducing military investments in africa and south com, and they continually raise that they are under resourced.
▶ 1:51:12Sen. Kaine: We had an opportunity in an area of the world that I am the most familiar with, the americas, we had a real opportunity and could or that throughout a pro china government and we had a chance to be a pro-democracy success story. The previous president said all you have to do is put me in the trade deal and I am the only nation on the pacific coast of the americas that does not have a trade deal with the U.S..
▶ 1:51:40Sen. Kaine: Ecuador did not have one because of the pro china government. We did not do it. We basically, the administration and I strongly support this administration but the view is that trade deals are not good politics. We did not do the one thing that the president was asking us to do and now we have a more complicated situation. The comment I will make is we talk about the global south a lot.
▶ 1:52:07Sen. Kaine: But if you measure by resources and energy or focus, we are going backwards and not for words. And that really troubles me. My question is this. On the fentanyl topic, in november of 2023, president bryden and -- biden and xi met to talk about steps that china might take to help interdict fentanyl by blocking precursors from coming into mexico.
▶ 1:52:37Sen. Kaine: Nine months later what is a report card on whether those commitments by china are being met or not?
▶ 1:52:42Sec. Campbell: Thank you on the first question, when you travel around, you are left with, particularly in the global south with a sense there is -- sense of that there is so much to do and you suggest that we are going in the other direction.
▶ 1:53:04Sec. Campbell: And as a person who has long supported the indo pacific I recognize that we are moving further -- more into capacity there, but we should not be shortchanging our engagements in africa or latin america. It will come back to haunt us. I share those issues and I believe in them as well.
▶ 1:53:30Sec. Campbell: I will also say that we talk about contesting narratives that the chinese and the russians propagate. The dominant one that the chinese and russians use is the idea of american decline. And those views can be pernicious. And, frankly, they can use disinformation and headlines from our own newspapers.
▶ 1:53:59Sec. Campbell: And one of the things that I would suggest is that when we come together in bills and activities that suggest national purpose and a degree of consensus, that is the area where we have been the strongest. I see that more in the indo pacific than I do in the global south.
▶ 1:54:17Sec. Campbell: My hope is that this committee in the future will help us to think about bipartisan approaches that are not just about military but the ability to invest and diplomats across the board. I am probably preaching to the choir. The best grade I could give on the fentanyl I was involved in this diplomacy closely and it would be incomplete. There are modest steps that the chinese have taken.
▶ 1:54:47Sec. Campbell: There are some criminal prosecutions that they have undertaken. They have wrapped up a few of the companies involved. I want to underscore how challenging this is. There are a large number of precursor chemicals and a large number of companies. They are innovative and moving around asia. One of the reasons that china is addressing this issue, not because we have asked but congress has been engaged.
▶ 1:55:16Sec. Campbell: Frankly probably -- probably the visit of senator schumer and the team in advance of that had as much of an impact as anything we have done. I would also say that it is the case that synthetic opioids are not just affecting the united states. Europe and parts of asia and china as well.
▶ 1:55:39Sec. Campbell: This is a global scourge and I think increasingly the chinese recognize that since so much of that is coming from manufacturers in china that they have to take more steps. They have not done so to date, and we need to stay on them. This is a critical national security issue for us. I commend you for raising and focusing on it.
▶ 1:56:03Chair Cardin: Senator booker.
▶ 1:56:05Sen. Booker: I want to pick up on some of the themes that my friend brought up and I am so grateful that you are here. I want to pick up on something because it is a concern about china and its dealings with saudi arabia. Could we be specific? We are in negotiations on a treaty right now, correct?
▶ 1:56:28Sec. Campbell: So I think it would be fair to say that we are in deep negotiations with saudis . The ultimate manifestation that are many parts of it.
▶ 1:56:42Sen. Booker: I do not want to take my time doing that. When I am in the region and I am sitting with leaders, they wants to deal with the united states of america. They want deeper ties and relationships. They know that from technology to economy to the military, we are the dance partner. But when we do not engage they are looking for other dance partners to hedge their bets. That is a fair statement, correct.
▶ 1:57:12Sen. Booker: When it comes to the competition with china if we find a way to move forward we get a lot of advantages by blocking them in the things that benefit us, whether it is china and russia trying to undermine the currency we secure the dollar being used for the trade.
▶ 1:57:31Sen. Booker: While we have a fierce competition going on militarily, we have shown that when we lean into partnerships not only with competitors in russia and china but the competition for military sales with european companies. And then when it comes to the economy, the technology transfers, we have been able to use our partnerships to box out the chinese.
▶ 1:57:53Sen. Booker: And so this is a time that I see that we are really talking about a global competition to pick the partners and further lost in american -- lock in american advantages. Is this the opportunity that we are least seeking in the negotiations?
▶ 1:58:11Sec. Campbell: That is exactly the strategy. I think it has borne the most fruits in the indo pacific. We talked about this, that is the quad and aukus, and the trilateral with japan and south korea. It is printing the philippines and. Working with south east asia, thailand, vietnam and india.
▶ 1:58:36Sec. Campbell: Whether you are talking about --
▶ 1:58:37Sen. Booker: Whether you are talking about india, australia or european allies or africa or south america, people are looking for strong partnerships. When we step up people prefer to deal because china has a really bad reputation in these countries. Is that correct?
▶ 1:58:58Sec. Campbell: Look, I would say that a job like mine, and probably a job like yours there is probably a lot of stuff that can get you down. I will tell you that the thing that is encouraging me everywhere is that the demand signal for american engagement is high.
▶ 1:59:19Sec. Campbell: And even though they have doubts sometimes, I sometimes sense that you walk into the meeting with the leader he is trying to size up our these guys committed and will be there. If you are able to show them you will engage with sincerity and that you are working with other agencies in the U.S. government and partners globally that believe in the things that you are advancing, you could have a real impact on the ground.
▶ 1:59:48Sec. Campbell: I have seen that throughout my confirmation hearing. You asked me and said just do not do the indo pacific and go to africa. I have been twice. I have found that those countries are thirsty for a deeper american engagement and I intend to do everything I can. I do think that we tend to underestimate ourselves and the value proposition is strong, militarily and technologically, education and everything.
▶ 2:00:19Sec. Campbell: The most important thing is to have confidence.
▶ 2:00:20Sen. Booker: My time is running out so it is music to my ears to hear you say that. Two frustrations, one not on you but on us. I have seen the power of great ambassadors in the global south to extend the american influence, connection, and opportunity. If you look at kenya, a great example. The fact that we have so many vacancies is stunning.
▶ 2:00:49Sen. Booker: It is shooting ourselves in the foot in many ways, undermining our ability to compete. It is like stanford trying to take -- trying to play notre dame and benching three or four players. I want to add that.
▶ 2:01:04Sen. Booker: The final point I want to bring up is what is frustrating to me when I do travel to africa is to see how obviously important we see what the military strength and trying to counter what we are seeing and no one can argue with that. The thing that inspires me the most is that when I see the power of U.S.
▶ 2:01:29Sen. Booker: Investments not just the future of pepfar, but business and infrastructure investments. The unbelievable core door --c coridoor investments and counter what china is trying to do and the urgency for that.
▶ 2:01:49Sen. Booker: And so I guess what I just want to have you finish on is something as simple as the development finance corporation which is an incredible tool to compete with and congress will be considering reauthorizing to build act which created the dfc. Can you express the urgent for something like this as well as improvements?
▶ 2:02:14Sec. Campbell: Great questions. Can I build on a point that you made. When you are in a job like mine you go to these embassies and you are evaluating leadership. I was just in gabon, and not a lot of americans go to visit. First time ambassador and one of the most effective young woman and I watched her engage her team.
▶ 2:02:42Sec. Campbell: The state department occasionally can have highly hierarchical -- these guys and young people first tour pitching in and feeling that they can talk in meetings, usually impressed. And a small amount of assistance. But taking it to the maximum. I left there just like when you went to kenya incredibly and unbelievably motivated wanting to do more and realizing that we could get it done.
▶ 2:03:12Sec. Campbell: The dfc is an unusually effective tool. It is incredibly effective. I got to be the person to do the groundbreaking of a major dfc initiative and senegal. It was cessation of -- it was sensational. The chinese projects bring their own people and equipment.
▶ 2:03:32Sen. Booker: I think we have to leave it at that. I would give two effort back -- extra minutes.
▶ 2:03:39Rep. Bergman: I completely some -- sec. Campbell: I completely support this. Dfc what you need to do is to leverage financing. They need more leverage, like all fan -- financial institutions, that would help.
▶ 2:03:53Chair Cardin: Senator van hollen.
▶ 2:03:56Sen. Van Hollen: Thank you for your service and your strong backing for the men and women of the foreign service and entire state department team, we appreciate all you are doing on their behalf. I do want to just second the remarks made by some of my colleagues that you have underscored which is we need all of our players on the playing field. It makes no sense and undermines our interest that we do not have ambassadors on post in places around the world.
▶ 2:04:28Sen. Van Hollen: Over 20 where china has an ambassador and we do not. Distant -- just in general to represent the values and interests of the united states. It is a dereliction of duty that we are not moving these men and women through the process. You mentioned the ambassador in gabon.
▶ 2:04:52Sen. Van Hollen: And just underscore a couple of points that you and my colleagues have made, first borrow of engaging our partners in support of both the efforts to defend ukraine against putin but also to counter china's efforts to support russia, putin and the war machine not with erect arms transfers but supporting the military industrial base.
▶ 2:05:18Sen. Van Hollen: Thank you to your efforts to have a collective initiative with the european partners. I know you are working on that in terms on sanctions of chinese firms. Finally, across the global south you cannot beat something with nothing, as you say. We do not ask everybody to choose between the united eights in china, we asked them to look at what we have the offer.
▶ 2:05:47Sen. Van Hollen: We have a lot to offer in terms of transparency and investment. We are not fully engaging in terms of the economic front. Dfc is a critical tool. I support our military efforts in africa and china, but my view is that we are overweight there and under in other parts of the competition. Some parts of the world do not need our direct public investment.
▶ 2:06:18Sen. Van Hollen: And that includes saudi arabia and some of the gulf countries like uae. I was on a trip that included tops in saudi arabia and the uae and I met with a crown prince. I also met with the administer of communications and he mentioned that he had had a very productive meeting with you.
▶ 2:06:41Sen. Van Hollen: And then in the uae, a lot of interest in moving forward in this partnership between q 42 and microsoft. I want to go back to the question that senator murphy raised and senator bucky -- senator booker alluded to. On the one hand we definitely want to be the players of choice when it comes to investment high-tech.
▶ 2:07:06Sen. Van Hollen: It was very clear both the saudis and folks in the uae want to engage with U.S. companies because of U.S. technological expertise. On the other hand, we do want to make sure that our partners are not transferring important technological secrets to china.
▶ 2:07:30Sen. Van Hollen: Can you look through that lens a little bit, saudi arabia and uae and tele me how we would that -- and tell me how we would balance those interests.
▶ 2:07:45Sec. Campbell: I agree with the value proposition. It really comes down if I can be so direct the nature of negotiation and we need to understand what we are putting on the table in each relationship is extraordinarily valuable. It is the technological prowess which is unmatched in most areas.
▶ 2:08:13Sec. Campbell: We are the leader and will continue to be. There is a huge advantage to work more closely with an american firm. Secondly the security engagement is stabilizing. And important to a number of these countries. And so recognizing that in any set of engagements that are around the future of our relationship, we probably have the ability to be quite direct about what expectations are.
▶ 2:08:45Sec. Campbell: And then follow through. And I am very much of the view to explore and deepen these partnerships. There has been a tendency in the past to basically seek to have it both ways in certain circumstances. When it comes to these fundamental issues that are so important to american strategic purpose we have to be unambiguous. They are going to have to make choices.
▶ 2:09:09Sen. Van Hollen: Thank you Mr. secretary.
▶ 2:09:11Chair Cardin: Senator duckworth.
▶ 2:09:14Sen. Duckworth: Good morning, it is so good to see you again. I really appreciate that over the course of our relationship we have been able to be quite candid with one another. Particularly as I reflect on what I think the united states has missed its mark on the past engagements.
▶ 2:09:36Sen. Duckworth: I would ask you to think critically about where we can improve efforts and I think we can look outside the indo pacific to make these assessments when it comes to assessments. And there are cases in the indo pacific. I just spent -- I just got back from laos and vietnam where I was the first to visit in 15 years and I found a country hungry for U.S. presidents.
▶ 2:10:02Sen. Duckworth: And I found a country littered with debt trap infrastructure projects that they will never be able to pay back. And a crumbling road built with borrowed money to the tunes of billions of dollars that are not generating revenue.
▶ 2:10:17Sen. Duckworth: And I saw so many opportunities, something as simple as a visited an asian development bank project where they help local villages next to major natural resource tourists sites build a whole place where people can go swimming in beautiful lagoons and they get over 500 visitors a day at each of these sites.
▶ 2:10:42Sen. Duckworth: In talking with them they said the only -- when we have problems with tourists getting into swimming problem it is an american tourist pulling them out because they have lifeguard training and first-aid training. It would be great if someone could provide us with lifeguard training and we would pay the young people and they would not have to leave the country or move to the cities. Something as simple as that and trying to find funding for simple U.S. lifeguard training which they would love to have.
▶ 2:11:14Sen. Duckworth: Low-cost, high-impact, really good projects. And so in order for the united states to be seen as a credible and reliable partner and provide an alternate choice to the prc where we do not have a strong track record of relationship we need to be showing up, things with the lifeguard training or some of this. But I also think there was an opportunity for capacity building in public health in particular. Can you tell us something about how the U.S.
▶ 2:11:43Sen. Duckworth: Approach with partner nations in a public health -- public-health space build trust and enhance our presence in the region? We rely too much on security and defense.
▶ 2:11:54Sec. Campbell: Let me just thank you, you have been a voice consistently asking for more engagement in specific countries. I was also grateful that you raised cases of small countries like laos and cambodia. There is a tendency sometimes to think that these countries are in a chinese orbit and that is that.
▶ 2:12:20Sec. Campbell: But the truth is that when we set up the first summit, which you were a key backer of two years ago when we brought all of the leaders of washington, it was difficult to get agreement among all of these nations. The two nations that were quietly some of the strongest voices in having that happen where laos and cambodia because they want options and a deeper relationship. I love the idea of lifeguards.
▶ 2:12:50Sec. Campbell: Anything that you think that we can do that will high-impact and not at all here and I will go back to the building and see what is possible. I will say this, our greatest thing in southeast asia is that we engage as an institution as well as individual countries. I have -- we have done varied -- very well in vietnam and the philippines.
▶ 2:13:19Sec. Campbell: We have engaged in for -- engaged effectively in indonesia but I think we can do more in a number of countries, malaysia and thailand, laos and cambodia. You in particular have pushed us to do more. We have a few more things that we would like to do in this arena as we approach the end of the biden administration. I accept the proposition and I am always looking to do more for our friends and partners.
▶ 2:13:49Sen. Duckworth: I am almost out of time and I would love to meet with you and talk a little bit about these initiatives.
▶ 2:13:55Sec. Campbell: Done.
▶ 2:13:57Sen. Duckworth: The pacific island countries I am glad that congress finally funded and renew the agreement.
▶ 2:14:03Sec. Campbell: You have to give yourselves a bigger pot on the back than that. Let us be clear. In a >> in a > period of unbelievable division one thing got through. After 20 years a negotiation was really hard and it was passed by the senate and house. Huge achievement. It made a big impression on our countries in the pacific. You should not dismiss that.
▶ 2:14:30Sec. Campbell: That was a big active legislative leadership and helped us. We are doing much better in the pacific band we were three years ago largely because of the urging and support of this committee.
▶ 2:14:41Sen. Duckworth: An expansion of more consular activities would be helpful.
▶ 2:14:46Sec. Campbell: We are doing this. Senator risch and his team have urged us. The restrictions on new buildings and how to build stuff is hard and difficult. We have sought exceptions and we are working with other like-minded countries that we can put our diplomats at their facilities and we need to do more. We have moral, historic and strategic reasons.
▶ 2:15:15Sec. Campbell: We are doing more and doing better and working with allies and partners. Ultimately we need to represent ourselves. These island nations are proud and have been with us for decades. They vote with us and we should not take them for granted.
▶ 2:15:29Sen. Duckworth: Thank you.
▶ 2:15:29Chair Cardin: Senator risch.
▶ 2:15:32Sen. Risch: Thank you for the recognition and I agree. This is a huge bipartisan victory and I think probably most americans do not have a full plate -- appreciation of how important the pacific reason -- region is. China is active. I am glad I have been a part of that and that will continue. Two quick things.
▶ 2:16:02Sen. Risch: I was happy to hear your assessment of where the europeans are in terms of china. It has been evolving and fortunately I found that the first friday I had was with the administration and I brought them along and then pushed back. I had real problems with the germans. We had reversed the position. Much to the credit of the belgians.
▶ 2:16:32Sen. Risch: Who came up with really outside of the box ideas of how to handle this. I cannot tell you how appreciative we are of that. We will continue to nurture that and I think we are on the right track and it is a good thing to do.
▶ 2:16:49Sen. Risch: As a last point, I really appreciate your remarks about india and xavier becerra important in our relation -- and how they are important in our relationships.
▶ 2:17:04Sen. Risch: We have the picture of modi hugging putin and that is 24 hours when putin had pulled the trigger on attacking a children's hospital in ukraine and killing a bunch of little kids. And to see them on the front page of the paper in bracing putin, that is a bitter pill to swallow.
▶ 2:17:30Sen. Risch: And I understand that they are in a geographical location and historically but man that is tough. They are an important actor and there is no question about it and that is tough. Your thoughts?
▶ 2:17:43Sec. Campbell: Senator I associate myself with that. I actually believe that it is probably the most important relationship to get right. A huge capacity and wonderful diaspora in the united states that connects the two great countries.
▶ 2:18:03Sec. Campbell: I believe that the vast majority of people want a better relationship that are grateful for the bipartisan attention and they like the work that they have done together in education and technology. We have supported them in intelligence and military along the line of actual control along the indian ocean. We have stepped up in a variety of areas.
▶ 2:18:26Sec. Campbell: That is important and I do believe that we fit india's trajectory in ways that are consequential and to our interests. I will say that one of the hardest things to keep in mind is that india is a great power. It has its own beliefs and interests.
▶ 2:18:45Sec. Campbell: They will never be a formal ally or partner of the united states but it does not meet -- it does not mean that we cannot have the strongest of possible relationships as allied nations on the global stage. You said it effectively about russia and I will not add to that directly. I will say that I think that we are likely hearing news of india engaging more directly in ukraine. I am grateful for that.
▶ 2:19:15Sec. Campbell: I think india wants to play a responsible role globally and there are very few other countries in the world that have such an appeal to the global south. And their ability to engage is unmatched and we are seeking to work with them in africa and elsewhere.
▶ 2:19:42Sec. Campbell: So, if I could just tell you, you have to take comfort in some of these things and recognize fundamentally that in a number of things that we are engaged in, and yet is an active and supportive partner and build on those things. And, over time, hopefully we will have less of those things.
▶ 2:20:03Sen. Duckworth: Thank you.
▶ 2:20:04Chair Cardin: Thank you very much for your service to our country and being here today. Several times you mentioned how china is protect -- portraying information that is different -- dense information and how we use the democratic systems and media availability and comments to use it against us.
▶ 2:20:29Chair Cardin: It just underscores to me the importance for us to invest more in regards to dictation of our values, believes and facts. Senator coons mentioned the work of his mehdi. Ice -- his committee and I strongly admire his leadership. The truth is that we are not investing enough in communications is one area where we are not investing enough.
▶ 2:21:00Chair Cardin: We have to be active globally. That used to be time, radio free europe and that was where the game is. We have to communicate around the world because of disinformation is given. I would urge you in your planning to understand that we recognize that and we have tried to reform the model on communication but we also need to fund it and be more nimble than today to respond to the challenges around the world with
▶ 2:21:32Chair Cardin: Disinformation and china being one of the major purveyors.
▶ 2:21:35Sec. Campbell: If I can just say I fully accept that and underscore that if any member of the committee or any member of the staff needs report or to engage we will get back to them immediately. I want to thank you both. We have worked very closely with your teams, the staff.
▶ 2:22:02Sec. Campbell: And I very much appreciate the work that they have helped us with from aukus to the pacific to issues with taiwan. So rate full for the bipartisan -- grateful for the bipartisan efforts and I will do everything I can to make sure that our partnership is tied.
▶ 2:22:18Chair Cardin: The comments about supporting the career of the state department and beat up on you instead but we did not beat up much on you. The committee record will stay open until close of business tomorrow. We ask that you respond to them quickly and with that this committee will stand adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit