▶ 0:18:09Chair Grassley: We welcome everyone for this very important hearing. Obviously, it is on fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances. Before I begin, I want to take a moment to welcome members in the audience.
▶ 0:18:25Chair Grassley: We have about 30 guests, including parents of kids who tragically died from fentanyl poisoning as well as law enforcement officers who have a strong interest in this issue. We thank you all very much for your support for this hearing by being here. Fentanyl accounts for a vast majority of drug overdose deaths in the united states every year.
▶ 0:18:57Chair Grassley: In the last four years from which we have data, two years ago around 75,000 lives were lost to fentanyl alone. That happens to work out to be about 200 people dying every day. We titled this hearing "the poisoning of america," because most americans don't know that they are taking fentanyl.
▶ 0:19:27Chair Grassley: Many are children who think they are taking something else that turns out to be laced with fentanyl. There are countless families with tragic stories. One family in iowa, lisbon, iowa, lorie sent us a letter that I would like to introduce into the record. I will do that without objection.
▶ 0:19:59Chair Grassley: Lori's youngest son bailey was taken april 5, 2022 at 22 years old. He was not a drug addict. He did not think that he was taking fentanyl, but the pill that he took was laced with it.
▶ 0:20:16Chair Grassley: Lori wrote, "fentanyl stole our son's future and the joy of watching bailey married the love of his life, having mother-son dance, watching him by his first home, watch it can become a loving father, and the joy of having more grandchildren.
▶ 0:20:43Chair Grassley: We will never know if any of his children, our grandchildren, would have bailey's curly hair, his cute smirking smile or his twinkling blue eyes. There will always be an empty chair at our family gathering, whether it be inks giving, christmas, easter, birthday dinner parties.
▶ 0:21:06Chair Grassley: His voice and laughter will be forever silenced." maybe the saddest part of the fentanyl crisis is that so many parents can tell a similar story of loss. In fact, we have many of them with us here today, including two of our witnesses. I want to tell the parents in the audience today, thank you for being here.
▶ 0:21:35Chair Grassley: Thank you for making your voices heard. Thank you for doing what you can do to keep other parents from going through what they've gone through. How long do we have to keep suffering through this attack on our children? This is not an easy problem to solve, but there are certain parts of the problem that are simple to address.
▶ 0:22:02Chair Grassley: For one thing, common sense border patrol will help stem the flow of fentanyl. We have no idea how many pounds of fentanyl were carried in the got aways that will never show up in any statistics.
▶ 0:22:20Chair Grassley: We also have no money we also have no mo -- no idea of how many searches of illegal immigrants have been used by cartels as a distraction to push through drugs through understaffed points of entry. Thankfully the trump administration has taken this threat seriously. Another thing to address is fentanyl knockoffs.
▶ 0:22:46Chair Grassley: Fentanyl is a substance that is easily changed by drug cartels to bypass the legal scheduling while becoming even more deadly. That is why, in 2018, the drug enforcement administration scheduled fentanyl drug offs as a class using a formula created by an emergency room doctor. He is here today. Thank you for coming.
▶ 0:23:15Chair Grassley: He will tell us about that problem. Congress temporarily extended the scheduling over and over. We played this game for too long. It is time to make this temporary scheduling permanent. So that the drug cartels will not have the opportunity to flood our country with even deadlier versions of fentanyl. Last week, senator cassidy and I introduced a bipartisan bill to do just that.
▶ 0:23:47Chair Grassley: Seven democratic senators cosponsored it. We should pass that bill quickly and -- quickly because of the temporary scheduling we last passed expires again on march 31. We must get this done. We must also support president trump's attempt to secure the border and deal with the mexican drug cartel. America's children need us to act.
▶ 0:24:17Chair Grassley: I am glad to have senator durbin speaking out, but also glad that he is sympathetic to what we are trying to do, because I only know it's a problem.
▶ 0:24:26Sen. Durbin: Certainly do, chairman grassley. This is a bipartisan issue, as it should be, to discuss fentanyl and the devastating impact that opioid addiction has on america. In a decade this synthetic opioid has emerged as the deadliest drug in american history. All it takes is two milligrams. That is a fraction of the size of a penny to cause an overdose.
▶ 0:24:55Sen. Durbin: It is so cheap that dealers are lacing lethal amounts in street drugs like cocaine and heroin and their buyers are none the wiser. We have learned the evidence-based solutions reduce death. In 2023 overdose deaths actually decreased for the first time since 2018, going down by more than 10%.
▶ 0:25:22Sen. Durbin: We need to look at every factor that contributes to the distribution, counseling and treatment, training for first responders, naloxone hardest hit communities. They all make a difference. We must address how this poison gets into the hands of the most vulnerable people in america, our kids. Too often fentanyl is peddled in the open on some of the world's largest social.
▶ 0:25:51Sen. Durbin: Last congress, the judiciary committee advanced to several bipartisan bills that would finally hold these companies accountable and demand safeguards be put into place to protect our children. One of the bills is the cooper-davis act. Cooper is a 16-year-old kansas teenager who tragically lost his life to a fentanyl-laced pill that he bought through snapchat. This bill would require big tech companies to take a more proactive role in stopping drug dealers from using their platforms.
▶ 0:26:22Sen. Durbin: Sadly, cooper is not the only teen who has lost his life to drugs peddled on social media. Bridgette norring is here to testify today. Her son devin tragically died after taking a fentanyl-laced pill that he thought was percocet that he purchased over snapchat. There is a lawsuit that she will tell us about from the parents of those victims through snapchat.
▶ 0:26:49Sen. Durbin: In the coming days, I will join senators marshall, shaheen, and others to reintroduce what we call cooper davis and devon during --devin norring act. I hope congress will finally allow these companies to be sued by their victim's family so that they can be held accountable in the court of law. Enough teens have died due to big tech's deliberate indifference. We must also acknowledge the role that the U.S.
▶ 0:27:18Sen. Durbin: Has played in arming cartels to the teeth. We send hundreds of thousands of firearms south of our border in an iron river and the cartels cash them in facilitating violence to traffic fentanyl into the united states. State and federal law enforcement agencies are in the front lines of protecting our communities from fentanyl and other opioids, but detection is getting more difficult.
▶ 0:27:47Sen. Durbin: Fentanyl is so potent and moved in quantity so small that high-value shipments can easily be hidden. As a result, law enforcement need access to technology and resources to quickly and efficiently detect these drugs. This includes expanding nonintrusive inspection capabilities, making life-saving the locks available, and adequately funding state and local law enforcement.
▶ 0:28:13Sen. Durbin: The funding freeze, if it is going to stop the efforts of law enforcement to combat fentanyl, is a bad idea. The same is true of diverting federal law enforcement agents including from the dea and atf away from combating fentanyl and firearms traffic by cartels and instead working on a mass deportation effort. As a reminder, the vast majority of fentanyl and legal drugs into the U.S.
▶ 0:28:41Sen. Durbin: And are smuggled by american citizens through legal ports of entry. I am also gravely concerned about the negative impact of mass removals of senior career law enforcement at the department of justice and fbi may limit our ability to hold traffickers accountable to cut off the supply fentanyl.
▶ 0:29:04Sen. Durbin: The recent actions we've seen distract us from the need to take a comprehensive, bipartisan approach to tackling this crisis, including investing in addiction prevention and treatment, enforcing and strengthening our gun laws, giving federal, state, and local law enforcement the resources that they need to do their jobs effectively, getting fentanyl off the streets is a herculean task that will require all of us to come together and work across the aisle to make the country healthier and safer.
▶ 0:29:35Sen. Durbin: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:29:37Chair Grassley: I will introduce the majority witnesses and senator durbin will introduce his witnesses. Then I wanted to announce that at approximately seven or eight minutes until 11:00 I will leave the committee meeting to open the senate. Senator cornyn will act as chairman while I am gone. The first witness is a U.S.
▶ 0:30:04Chair Grassley: Marine corps veteran, president of an organization, victims of illicit drugs, and that goes by the acronym v.o.I.d. For short, which is an organization that he founded after he lost his six-year-old son daniel to fentanyl. V.o.I.d. Is a nonprofit devoted to educating parents and children about drug use and social media platforms. Mr.
▶ 0:30:31Chair Grassley: Puerta, I think I speaker everyone on this committee when I say that we are deeply sorry for the loss of your son. Next, Mr. westlake is a driving force behind the class scheduling policy it has fought against the drug epidemic for over 30 years. He is a full-time emergency room physician and part-time medical regulator in wisconsin.
▶ 0:30:59Chair Grassley: He also provides medical direction for a state-wide peer to peer drug recovery program. In the past, Dr. westlake has served as chairman of the wisconsin medical examining board and was formally a member of wisconsin's controlled substance board.
▶ 0:31:21Chair Grassley: Sheriff don barnes is the sheriff-coroner of orange county, california leading 44,000 employees operating one of the nation's largest county jail systems, and manages the orange county crime lab.
▶ 0:31:41Chair Grassley: Sheriff barnes serves as the major county sheriffs for america's vice president for homeland security and as their chairman of the intelligence commander group. Thank you again for being here today. I will turn it over to ranking member durbin to introduce.
▶ 0:32:05Sen. Durbin: I want to welcome Dr. cecilia farfan-mendez, a researcher with the institute of global conflict and cooperation at the university of san diego.
▶ 0:32:23Sen. Durbin: She cofounded the mexico violence research project, which provides information and analysis, resources, for understanding violent crime in mexico. Bridgette norring is a survivor parent to her son devon I and a social media reform advocate. Ms. norring founded the devin norring foundation to raise awareness and educate parents, children, caregivers in the community about the dangers of illicit drugs.
▶ 0:32:52Sen. Durbin: She's a member of parents for safe online spaces advocating for online safety for kids. Ms. norring, I read your testimony and the loss of your son was so graphic and so touching.thank you for sharing . Mr. puerta, I read yours as well. It is heartbreaking as you described as five or six days in the hospital before you lost your son. Any of us who have lost a child know exactly what you went through. I will never forget it. Thank you to all of the witnesses for being with us today.
▶ 0:33:35Sen. Cornyn: Ranking member durbin, I believe that you are up first. Let's go ahead and hear from the witnesses. Mr. puerta, will you have an opening statement for the committee, please?
▶ 0:33:51Mr. Puerta: I am jaime puerta, the cofounder and president of victims of illicit drugs. Joining me is a retired police officer and secretary-treasurer of v.o.I.d., as well as Ms. gretchen peters, ceo of alliance counter crimes online and other family members who have endured the profound loss of a loved one due to illicit fentanyl.
▶ 0:34:23Mr. Puerta: V.o.I.d., a california-based, was established to advocate and raise public awareness about the devastating dangers of fentanyl and other synthetic analogues. I stand before you today to give voice to the countless lives lost. Including my own son. Daniel puerta-johnson.
▶ 0:34:46Mr. Puerta: My son was not a habitual drug use or by any sense of the word nor had he been diagnosed with substance use disorder, but he was diagnosed with adhd and depression. April 1, 20 20 at the beginning of the pandemic I walked into my son's room and found him practically lifeless in his bed. In shock and panic, I first called 911 and then his mother. Emergency services arrived and immediately began cpr and naloxone was administered.
▶ 0:35:15Mr. Puerta: He was transported to los angeles children's hospital where a team of specialty doctors did everything that they could to bring our son back, but were unfortunately unsuccessful in bringing him out of his catatonic state. His health had become much worse from the day that he had been admitted. All they could do was keep him comfortable until his mother, denise, and I made the agonizing decision to discontinue life support. -- all support efforts. On april 6, 2020 at 3:45 p.m.
▶ 0:35:48Mr. Puerta: All life support was discontinued. His mother, denise, got into his hospital bed and laid next to him, gently stroking his beautiful head of dark brown hair and I was holding his right hand when he drew his last breath at exactly 5:08 p.m. Of that april 6 when he quietly passed away.
▶ 0:36:12Mr. Puerta: I kissed the bridge of his nose like I did most nights when saying good night, and I left the hospital to go home without my son, utterly broken, devastated, angry, and confused. After my son's passing I was contacted by the los angeles county sheriff's office and was told that my son died due to an overdose. Have of the blue pill which I later found out looked exactly like a pharmaceutical grade blue m30 oxycodone pill that was found on his dresser.
▶ 0:36:43Mr. Puerta: It was sent to the laboratory for analysis and it was found that the pill that took my son's life was illicit fentanyl. My son consumed what he thought was a blue m30 oxycodone pill, but in fact had unknowingly, I repeat unknowingly, ingested an illicitly manufactured counterfeit opioid made of nothing more than a filler, binding agent, and illicit fentanyl.
▶ 0:37:10Mr. Puerta: This was deceptively made to look exactly like a pharmaceutical-grade oxycodone pill and it killed him. I've shared daniel's story countless times. Yet, the problem worsens. Illicit fentanyl remains an insidious threat. What can we do? Our organization believes that knowledge saves lives, but we need legislative action. The halt fentanyl act currently under consideration is a vital tool in the fight.
▶ 0:37:37Mr. Puerta: Illicit fentanyl has no medical use and is highly addictive, warranting its classification as a schedule one substance under the controlled substances act. For too long, this legislation has stalled, despite clear evidence of its necessity. My son daniel's death is one of countless tragedies caused by this epidemic. His story is one of hope extinguished. Of a family left broken.
▶ 0:38:09Mr. Puerta: But it is also a call to action. No family, no family should have to endure the pain that we have suffered. We have the tools to address these crises. What we need now is the will to act.
▶ 0:38:25Mr. Puerta: I urge you, I beg you to act decisively and combat this crisis. Thank you for inviting me and my fellow bereaved parents to this esteemed committee.
▶ 0:38:45Sen. Cornyn: Ms. norring?
▶ 0:38:49Ms. Norring: My name is bridgette norring and I am the wife, mother, grandmother, advocate, founder of the devin j. Norring foundation, foundation I wish didn't have to be in existence. Today marks another month that my son devin joseph norring was taken from my family at the age of 19, well before he got the chance to really begin life. Senators, that is how parents like myself measure time. It goes by the weeks, months, or years since their children lost their lives.
▶ 0:39:21Ms. Norring: Devin was your average teenager with a passion for football, skateboarding, bmx, and music. He was smart when it came to anything mathematical. He was his siblings' biggest protector. He had plans to go to california in the summer 2022 to look into schools to continue his music education and become the musician he wanted to be. He unfortunately never made it. He had been suffering from blackout migraines and dental pain that he had been under a doctor's care for.
▶ 0:39:50Ms. Norring: At the height of the pandemic the appointments were canceled and we believe that devin was desperate to treat the pain. The morning after devin and an acquaintance went on to snapchat and connected with the drug dealer, he was found unresponsive in his bedroom by his then 14-year-old brother. His bedroom should have been the safest place in the world.as I held him one last time, I promised my son that I would do something. We later learned that devin was poisoned by fentanyl, a single pill with enough fentanyl to kill multiple people.
▶ 0:40:24Ms. Norring: I now know that social media platforms are one of the primary sources which unsuspecting teens by all kinds of drugs with the majority containing fentanyl. This crisis has many facets and each should be addressed with care and encouraged education, supply and demand issues, lack of accessible mental health recovery programs, and holding drug dealers and traffickers accountable for the devastating loss of life are all important issues to address, but we must do more.
▶ 0:40:54Ms. Norring: It is critical that we address social media platforms that facilitate drug peddling to children. Platforms which make these connections, as a matter of design, and then profit from them. We cannot say that we are protecting our children until we have passed legislation to stop it. In the spring of 2021, myself and several families were invited to meet with executives from snapchat. Today,hat meeting drives my fuel for social media reform.
▶ 0:41:25Ms. Norring: Snapchat's executives claimed they had no idea this was happening even though snapchat and other platforms have been used for drug sales for years and this has been widely reported by the media. They blamed us, as parents, and told us that due to section 230 we had no power to hold them accountable in court. If someone opened a brick-and-mortar store and use that to sell drugs to children we would be shut down so fast.
▶ 0:41:53Ms. Norring: Why don't the same rules apply to social media? Since losing devin we have watched drug dealers operate on snapchat. While we got zero justice for devin's death we aided in the indictments of individuals with ties to a cartel in minneapolis. I believe that there were 19 members of that indictment. I am grateful to the hastings police department and dakota county drug tax -- task force for their work on the case.
▶ 0:42:22Ms. Norring: Speaking with devin's story, the toll that snapchat takes on the mental health and how they are spending 26 plus hours a week on these platforms on average. That is why my family and others fight hard to support the kids online safety act. I think senators blumenthal and blackburn for spearheading this vital legislation on behalf of our children. The crucial foundation for social media reform.
▶ 0:42:47Ms. Norring: I am blessed to work with my congressional representative, senator amy klobuchar, and representative angie craig. I want to thank congresswoman craig for introducing the cooper davis and devon norming act and for senator klobuchar for acting on her promise to help parents achieve accountability for victims. Parents like me, Mr. puerta, steve filson, and thousands of others who cannot do this alone.
▶ 0:43:13Ms. Norring: We look to you to pass kosa and the cooper davidson devon norming act. We need you to stand with us and enact these pieces of legislation so that our country's kids have a fighting chance. I'm honored to be here and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:43:34Dr. Westlake: Distinguish members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify and for your leadership. Before I talk science I wanted to tell you the last time that I used narcan. It was days ago.
▶ 0:43:51Dr. Westlake: A quiet night shift in the emergency department and I was mulling over my testimony for this hearing when I had to rush out to a cart driven by the girlfriend of a patient who took what he thought was a percocet and it was a lethal dose of fentanyl. He wasn't breathing and was about to go into cardiac arrest. We pulled him out and resuscitated him with narcan. In a minute he went from being blue and pulse-less to being wide awake. He went home with his family that night. He was lucky this time.
▶ 0:44:20Dr. Westlake: This is my reality and the reality of so many emergency physicians across america. We have a problem in this country requiring all of us to work together to solve it. I would like to clarify what fentanyl related substances are and why permanently scheduling them as a class is a critical policy tool.
▶ 0:44:55Dr. Westlake: Frs's are highly active opioids almost identical to fentanyl except for a tiny difference in their chemical structure created by changing a single ingredient during synthesis. The result is a new, potent opioid with the same deadly effects as fentanyl and without class scheduling would be legal until it caused deaths. Fentanyls are so toxic and lethal they can be classified and have been used as chemical weapons. The lethal dose is two milligrams, five grains of sand. Meaning that one teaspoon can kill 2000 people. That is what is in this packet of sugar. You could kill 2000 people if this were fentanyl.
▶ 0:45:19Dr. Westlake: Telling parents, tragically on more than one occasion, even friends of mine, that their child will never come home is the worst part of my job. In fact, the inspiration for frs class scheduling arose out of the tragedy of my friend's son archie. Archie was an altar server with my daughters. He started with prescription opioids and then to heroin and unknowingly fentanyl. I resuscitated archie on his second to last overdose.
▶ 0:45:49Dr. Westlake: At that time I pulled out a body bag, laid it next to him, and warned him that is where he would end up if he didn't seek help. He was clean for six months until illicit fentanyl entered his life. One of the last things my friend saw of her son was him being zipped into a body bag. Motivated to act by hundreds of such a deaths, frs scheduling legislation came together quickly and was enacted unanimously in wisconsin legislature in 2017.
▶ 0:46:18Dr. Westlake: Dea adopted as national policy shortly thereafter, but only congress can make it permanent. Some who oppose illicit fentanyl as proof that it doesn't work, but this is a misunderstanding of the facts. Frs scheduling doesn't address illicit fentanyl and it was never designed to do so. It only removes the incentive for legal chemical companies to create new frs's stopping them from existing in the first place.
▶ 0:46:43Dr. Westlake: There's no quick and easy solution to the scourge of illicit fentanyl, but the solution to frs's is a simple legislative fix, one that you have before you right now. At its core, frs scheduling isn't an extension of the war on drugs or law enforcement strategy designed to incarcerate. There have been a total of eight federal prosecutions under the language as of 2021. Half of which had already been known to have ties to drug cartels.
▶ 0:47:09Dr. Westlake: As well, there has never been a prosecution for a non-bioactive frs, because there are none. All fentanyl-related substances encountered today have been found to have potent opioid activity, one is 7000 more times potent than morphine. If schedule one penalties were removed for frs trafficking it would re-incentivize their creation and significantly weaken the law's most preventative effects.
▶ 0:47:37Dr. Westlake: There is a time and place for criminal justice reform, but frs scheduling isn't it. Some suggest frs scheduling would have a negative impact on research while theoretical it has been addressed with stakeholder input and supported by the very agencies and organizations representing academic scientific research, including the nih, hhs, fda, and the national institute of drug abuse.
▶ 0:48:02Dr. Westlake: The halt fentanyl act would significantly loosen restrictions into studying all schedule one substances, not just frs's and open promising areas of substance abuse research. In conclusion, for the past six years frs scheduling has been federal policy as the primary architect of the wisconsin law I couldn't be more pleased. In a few short years, the creation and distribution of new frs's has ground to a halt.
▶ 0:48:26Dr. Westlake: In our battle against fentanyl, the elimination of related substances that previously escaped our scheduling and devastated communities across the nation is surely one bright spot. Congress must take action and permanently close the spigot of frs's. You cannot die from ingesting something never created, nor can you be incarcerated for trafficking something that doesn't exist. That is the beauty and simplicity of frs scheduling. I look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 0:48:56Sen. Cornyn: I will introduce you but I don't want to get your last name mispronounced. Is it farfan? Good, I guessed correctly. I'm happy to hear your opening statement.
▶ 0:49:11Dr. Farfan: Members of the committee, thank you for conducting this hearing and the opportunity to explain why saving lives in north america requires productive engagement with mexico. I appreciate the invitation to participate. I am an expert on organized crime and usi the mexico cooperation. As an alumna of the fulbright program I'm convinced that transnational problems require transnational solutions. To the families who testified today, I acknowledge your grief.
▶ 0:49:40Dr. Farfan: There are no actions that can reverse the tragedies you've experienced. My testimony doesn't seek to invalidate yours. On the contrary, it is because I have witnessed and collaborated with families on both sides of the border who have lost loved ones to overdoses, homicides, disappearances that I'm here to offer what I believe is a more helpful, sustainable path forward. On january 27, secretary rubio stated america's foreign policy must be justified by three simple questions. Does it make america safer?
▶ 0:50:11Dr. Farfan: Does it make america safer? Does it make america more prosperous? As a scholar who dedicated her professional career to studying and working towards constructive U.S.-mexico relations, it is my strong professional opinion that the united states can only be safer, stronger, and more prosperous if its neighbors are afforded the same opportunity. Suffering on both sides of the border is inextricably linked. The U.S.
▶ 0:50:36Dr. Farfan: Is facing one of its worst public health crises due to the fentanyl and mexico faces its own epidemic with 70% homicides perpetrated by a firearm. More than 40% of americans know someone who has died from an opioid overdose. Homicide is the leading cause of death for men ages 25-40 four and the second cause of death for women ages 15-24 in mexico.
▶ 0:51:03Dr. Farfan: Worryingly, the urgency to save lives is reviving the worst policy failures of the war on drugs. With thousands of lives at risk on both sides of the border, it's urgent that the U.S. and mexico implement policies based on facts. Through the public sectors, civil society, and academia, both have developed robust evidence on how to maintain the health and safety of our communities. Fentanyl and firearms trafficking has changed the dynamics and criminal markets.
▶ 0:51:30Dr. Farfan: These changes are not as simple as prevailing narratives of organized crimes. Even places that have been portrayed as a shangri-la for criminality, drug trafficking is not masterminded by three men hiding in the mountains. There is no special narco highway connecting the highlands to the streets of l.a. Or philadelphia. Actors in mexico and the U.S.
▶ 0:51:56Dr. Farfan: Who take advantage of legal economies for the advancement of illicit activities.for example , the most recent data from the U.S. sentencing commission shows that for fiscal year 2020 3, 86 point 4% of people sentenced for fentanyl trafficking are U.S. citizens. Serious policy conversations and addressing mortality caused by synthetic drugs can't be separated from firearms trafficking.
▶ 0:52:21Dr. Farfan: Low production costs are often cited as a key reason why suppliers moved to synthetic opioids like fentanyl. This is the same thing with firearms and ammunition. The ease of acquiring firearms from the U.S. lowered the cost of perpetrating violence for criminal groups in mexico. Even though there are significant variations as to the frequency in ways that criminal groups use violence, they must all issue credible threats under the ability to perpetrate this violence. Their businesses depend on it.
▶ 0:52:52Dr. Farfan: The newer and more sophisticated the armament is, the more credible these threats become. Why intimidate potential victims with a rifle left over from the mexican revolution when your arsenal can include 50 caliber weapons? This strategy has made up for organized crime, including those involved in fentanyl trafficking. According to data released by the atf, of the firearms recovered in mexico submitted for tracing, more than two thirds were sourced from the U.S.
▶ 0:53:20Dr. Farfan: Today, 74% of mexicans believe that criminal groups have more and better weapons than the armed forces. Access to illegally trafficked weapons from the U.S. allowed mexican criminal groups to amass tremendous capacity for violence in a troubling capacity to intimidate. Simply stated, by failing to address firearms trafficking to mexico, the U.S. is subsidizing the operating costs of criminal groups.
▶ 0:53:48Dr. Farfan: It is as if cartels receive an annual aid package with state-of-the-art technology to carry out the crimes this congress wants to stop. Our shared tragedies are two sides of the same coin. The silver lining is that there is no secret solution waiting to be discovered. Actions available to congress, like the stop arming cartels act, can contribute to stemming the devastating effects of this public health crisis and must be implement it through U.S.-mexico security cooperation. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:54:17Chair Cornyn: Sheriff barnes.
▶ 0:54:21Mr. Barnes: Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I am representing the major county sheriffs of america, a professional law enforcement association of the 100 largest sheriffs of the nation serving one third of our nation's population. As the sheriff of orange county, I lead an agency of more than 4000 men and women serving 3.1 million residents. Orange county consistently ranks as one of the safest in the nation.
▶ 0:54:52Mr. Barnes: Like every community, we have felt the devastating impacts of the fentanyl crisis. The fentanyl epidemic is one of the most pressing public safety and public health crises to impact our nation. In just a few short years, nationwide drug have and related deaths have tripled, a direct correlation to the prevalence of fentanyl. While we saw a slight decrease in nationwide fatalities in 2023, the numbers remain alarmingly high with annual deaths still approaching 100,000 annually.
▶ 0:55:21Mr. Barnes: In california, we sell fentanyl deaths increase from 239 in 2016 to 7000 in 2023. Mexico-based cartels taking advantage of the crisis at the border have flooded our communities with deadly fentanyl. This is evident by the drug seizures made by my department's investigative teams.
▶ 0:55:41Mr. Barnes: Over the past four years these teams seized 1500 51,00 fentanyl powder. What is more alarming than the sheer volume is the dramatic increase in seizures during the same time period. Since 20 21, my investigative teams seized 16,278 pills. In 2024 the number skyrocketed to over 2 million. That is my agency alone.
▶ 0:56:10Mr. Barnes: The fight against the fentanyl epidemic in california is incredibly challenging given our close proximity to the border, national drug trends, and our state's premise of drug laws. Proposition 47 passed in 2014 largely decriminalized most drug and property crimes. Our tems to seek action by the state legislature largely fell on deaf years.
▶ 0:56:33Mr. Barnes: When we first saw the signs of fentanyl in 20 25, we propose legislation enhancing penalties for trafficking fentanyl similar to cocaine and heroin. The bill failed year after year after year while deaths continue to increase. Sadly, in some instances the proposal was met with ridicule by those too devoted to extreme incarceration policies.
▶ 0:57:00Mr. Barnes: Think schaeuble's limits can medication with federal partners -- sanctuary laws limit communication with federal partners. This progress is a result of our ongoing multi-faceted strategy that focuses on supply and demand for illicit drugs. The strategy includes investigating dollars in narcotics teams and resources, working with the U.S.
▶ 0:57:30Mr. Barnes: Process individuals who sell drugs that result in the death of another, innovative drug education programs taught in our schools. Since 2016, deputies who carried naloxone resulted in over 600 lives saved in our community. In our jails we have step down units and have medication-assisted programs. Congress can help this progress by moving forward many of the initiatives authored and supported by members of this committee.
▶ 0:58:02Mr. Barnes: First, we must firmly schedule fentanyl analogs as a schedule one drug. The house has taken of the halt fentanyl act this week. I want to thank chairman grassley and this committee for leading the senate. Funding increases would be a help. Funding has remained static for the last 10 years.
▶ 0:58:21Mr. Barnes: Mcsa is grateful that members of this committee are prioritizing the reauthorization of haida appeared we look forward to advance acts that would reauthorize the haida program at 330 $3 million annually. We need to reinforce law enforcement tools. Strongly opposing legislation that would restrict or eliminate access to data to investigate fentanyl trafficking organizations.
▶ 0:58:48Mr. Barnes: We advocate for providing law enforcement with lawful access to encrypted devices, which is crucial for identifying those responsible for distributing lethal fentanyl. Lastly, mcsa supports bipartisan legislation crucial for addressing the criminal justice system focusing on continuing care, successful reintegration, and sustained sobriety post-release from our jails. I am honored to be here today and look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 0:59:18Chair Cornyn: Thank you, sheriff. I will start by a round of questions and then we will turn to senator durbin. I believe that it's only appropriate that we should express our condolences for your loss.
▶ 0:59:35Chair Cornyn: When things like this happen I usually try to figure out, is there any way that we can take something terrible and tragic and hopefully learn lessons and make things better and save lives in the future? Thank you for being courageous and telling your story. I know it is not easy, but it is important for people across this country to understand how this can happen to them and their family.
▶ 1:00:04Chair Cornyn: Having visited with the number of families in texas at various school districts, I have come to believe that this requires a layered approach, may be at the kitchen table with awareness of our children to the threat. None of them take these counterfeit drugs knowingly, at least knowing that they are able to take their lives. That it contains contaminated fentanyl.
▶ 1:00:28Chair Cornyn: I believe it will require all of us from parents, families, school districts, local law enforcement, the state, local law enforcement, and border security. Sheriff barnes, it is my understanding that most of the chemicals that go into fentanyl have basically been traced back to china? Is that your understanding as well?
▶ 1:00:59Mr. Barnes: Yes, senator. There is an issue with precursor chemicals for transitive from china through our ports.
▶ 1:01:09Chair Cornyn: Announcements related to the tariffs that president trump has announced come his administration said that this isn't so much a trade policy as it is an anti-fentanyl policy, to finally get the chinese government's attention to do something about the precursors that emanate from that country.
▶ 1:01:28Chair Cornyn: As you point out, they make their way to mexico, where the cartels are putting them into pill presses and making them look like relatively innocuous drugs, only to turn out to be contaminated with fentanyl and take the lives of people unbeknownst to them. Do you believe that with improved border security we can begin to stop some of the flow of the illicit drugs coming across the border, including fentanyl?
▶ 1:01:58Mr. Barnes: Yes, senator. What you described is a complex system of almost a supply chain that starts in china using transit going to mexico, the pill presses. It is not just one thing it is 12 things simultaneously. I believe addressing this issue is more complicated than any one thing. The halt act is a great start. When you look at the pill presses pressing pills, that is one issue.
▶ 1:02:24Mr. Barnes: The border is obviously going to be the most significant issue as we shut down the border and the pathway for illicit fentanyl to make its way back into the united states. But it is that and many other things that have to take place.
▶ 1:02:47Chair Cornyn: I heard senator durbin's statement, which I disagree with, that says that the vast majority of the fentanyl comes across the ports of intrigue transported by american citizens. Is there anyone on the panel who subscribes to that point of view? Dr. farfan, do you think any one of the 1.7 million got aways in the last four years have been transporting fentanyl?
▶ 1:03:11Dr. Farfan: 1.7 million of?
▶ 1:03:14Chair Cornyn: During the biden administration, out of the millions of people welcomed into the country and released, there were one .7 million who appeared on various sensors, cameras and things like that, who evaded law enforcement and made their way into the interior of the united states. Do you think any one of those 1.7 million individuals evading law enforcement were transporting fentanyl?
▶ 1:03:40Dr. Farfan: I will restate what I mentioned in my testimony. Data shows that 86.4 people sentence for fentanyl trafficking in fiscal year 2023 were U.S. citizens.
▶ 1:03:54Chair Cornyn: My question is about the people who evaded law enforcement. Is it possible that some of them or maybe many of them were transporting illicit drugs, including fentanyl?
▶ 1:04:05Dr. Farfan: As someone who studies organized crime, that would be a really bad business decision. Drug traffickers --
▶ 1:04:14Chair Cornyn: It sounds like a very profitable decision on the part of the cartels to evade law enforcement and be able to deliver your drugs, your load into the united states only to make a lot of money from it. Why is that a bad business decision?
▶ 1:04:34Dr. Farfan: From a business point of view you would prefer smugglers with a legal right to entry in the united states than an immigrant where it is uncertain if he or she will cross into the united states. If you're looking at it from the point of view of, will we turn a profit or not in this particular shipment, putting your shipment into the hands of an immigrant who doesn't have a legal right to entry into the U.S. it is actually a bad business decision.
▶ 1:04:55Chair Cornyn: Sheriff barnes, do you agree?
▶ 1:04:58Mr. Barnes: I do not. There are two facets. You have the trafficking of the narcotic which is often in large bulk. In our experience, those are often residents of mexico. The distribution of that or sales, I think to Dr. farfan's point, might be carried out by U.S. citizens in the drug trafficking market. It is a combination of both.
▶ 1:05:26Mr. Barnes: The vast majority of the large quantities coming across in my experience are being conducted by mexican nationals. The distribution and sales inside the united states has often been carried out by U.S. citizens.
▶ 1:05:37Chair Cornyn: Thank you. Senator durbin.
▶ 1:05:41Sen. Durbin: Thank you for being here. How many of you would this be your first time to see the senate judiciary committee? Would you raise your hand? A few of our witnesses and others, first time. This is an interesting committee. It represents the spectrum of politics in the united states senate. We have the most republican republicans and most democratic democrats on this committee.
▶ 1:06:10Sen. Durbin: You won't be surprised that many times we disagree. That disagreement sometimes leads to good speeches but very few laws. There is an exception. Two years ago we took up this issue and started talking about what we could do to stop the spread of fentanyl and the deadly impact it is having on america.
▶ 1:06:34Sen. Durbin: We actually voted in this committee on a bipartisan basis unanimously for five measures that dealt with social media. Your point, Ms. norring, if snapchat was a store on the corner selling fentanyl-laden percocets, and it happened one time and they could be sued, that would be the end of the story. They would learn through section 230 that social media gets off the hook. Ms.
▶ 1:07:02Sen. Durbin: Norring, you are joining families, I understand, trying to hold him responsible for your son's death and other deaths as well. I could not support you more. What happened, we passed bills in this committee holding big tech and social media responsible. Unanimously. There were four or five new members to the committee, but every member last year voted for it.
▶ 1:07:32Sen. Durbin: Democratic and republican, conservative and liberal all voted for the measure. What happened as a result of that combined bipartisan effort? Nothing. Nothing! Speeches. That is what happened. We failed as democrats in the majority in the senate and republicans failed as the majority in the house to pass any measure. There I said it. Democrats bear responsibility and republicans as well. We have to be honest. Why?
▶ 1:08:03Sen. Durbin: Why would something as popular and obvious as that fail before the congress? Because there were powerful forces that have a lot of money at stake and don't want liability who would piously and publicly say that they love this measure and it makes all of the sense in the world. When the doors close and they speak with members individually, they take the opposite position and nothing happens. Chuck grassley is my friend. I got him in trouble for that, but I am proud of it.
▶ 1:08:34Sen. Durbin: We go back a long ways. I went to him yesterday and I said this time you are the chairman. I am the ranking democrat. I am here to help you pass legislation to do something. I'm sick and tired of excuses being made and people dying as a result of it. It is time on a bipartisan basis to find things we agree with. I don't know where the services are. I think Dr. farfan makes a valid argument.
▶ 1:09:02Sen. Durbin: Sheriff barnes, I respect very much your responsibility with law enforcement, but I have a different point of view. We may never resolve that question, but I think we can resolve we don't care where it is coming from, we want it to stop. We want to stop it in china, we want to stop it in mexico, and we want to stop it in our backyards and however it is getting into the united states. For those familiar with this committee, this is where it has to start.
▶ 1:09:32Sen. Durbin: We won't agree on every aspect of everything as result of it, but we can agree on basics that make a difference. Ms. norring, you have testified before about your son and the loss of his life. Senator klobuchar told me that. I would like to ask you what the families are doing that you have gathered with the hold snapchat and others liable?
▶ 1:09:52Ms. Norring: The families and I, we filed suit against snapchat. We are in the process of making it through the court as we speak. There are, how many? They have hundreds of cases behind ours. For a while it was looking pretty grim. Snapchat has been immune for so long.
▶ 1:10:22Ms. Norring: It is now making its way through. We just got word that we are going into discovery.
▶ 1:10:28Mr. Puerta: Yes, sir. It passed on january 4 of 2023, I believe. Accepted the lawsuit -- sorry, 2024. Not on the basis of free speech but on the basis of product design. That went on to the appellate court in california. The appellate court favored -- ruled in our favor for the lawsuit to go forward. Right now, we are in discovery.
▶ 1:11:00Mr. Puerta: No other lawsuit against any major social media company has gotten nascar's hours. -- has gotten as far as ours.
▶ 1:11:08Sen. Durbin: I wish you well. We are dealing with fentanyl and we are also dealing with the sexual exploitation of children. Members of this committee have shown real leadership. Senator blackburn and senator blumenthal especially. We can do this. Don't just come and leave and think that nothing is going to happen. It is our job to make sure that it does happen and to the right thing for you and your families.
▶ 1:11:38Chair Cornyn: I thank senator durbin for bringing up our conversation that we had yesterday. I suggested to him then, but I want the staff, our staff to see what can be worked out. I will ask questions and then I will call on klobuchar. Leading up to this hearing, my office received 58 letters from grieving families who lost loved ones to fentanyl.
▶ 1:12:09Chair Cornyn: I want to offer those letters into the record. Thank the families for writing them. Without objection, that will be done. One mother wrote, "families like mine have been sharing our stories of loss to this poison since 2018, hoping to ignite action among our leaders.
▶ 1:12:33Chair Cornyn: Tragically, despite hundreds of thousands of stories like mine over countless years we have yet to see a unified effort necessary to stop this poisoning of our generation." many of these letters urge congress to pass the legislation that goes by the acronym halt fentanyl act, which would make the class scheduling a fentanyl's related substances very permanent.
▶ 1:13:05Chair Cornyn: Mr. puerta, Dr. westlake, sheriff barnes, in that order, could you briefly explain why a permanent class scheduling is important to tackling this crisis?
▶ 1:13:16Mr. Puerta: I believe that it will increase penalties for trafficking and distribution. It will also streamline prosecution by removing the burden of proving whether a particular fentanyl analog is harmful. It would be illegal by default. It would give authorities greater flexibility as well to target emergency fentanyl analogs before they flood the market.
▶ 1:13:40Chair Grassley: Dr. westlake.
▶ 1:13:42Dr. Westlake: It goes back to the point of me coming up with this idea to stop the creation of these. It stops them from existing to begin with. You look at all of the possible bioactive modifications to the fentanyl molecule and surgically scheduled those modifications. So, what it has done and has proven to do so is it stops it from existing in the first place. No one is going to jail from them or dying from them because they don't exist.
▶ 1:14:12Dr. Westlake: It is the perfect form of prevention. The best place to hit a disease is at the beginning. If you can stop a diabetic from becoming a diabetic, they won't have the problems of having their leg amputated or being on dialysis later. It is one spigot. Illicit fentanyl is a huge fire
▶ 1:14:35Chair Grassley: Sheriff barnes? >> with the controlled substances act, we saw this happen with methamphetamines back in the 1990's where there were analog knockoffs. Most of our laws are tied to the controlled substances act so it would eliminate the ability of prosecuting someone for it.
▶ 1:15:03Chair Grassley: If we include these now, it will just incentivize the knockoffs because they will be included which will solve the previous problem of prosecutions at the state level. >> sheriff barnes, at the -- the centers for disease control reported that 100,000 americans die each year from drug overdoses.
▶ 1:15:30Chair Grassley: 75,000's of those related to fentanyl. We have only recently seen a decline. Do you think we have a handle on the emergency drug threats and what do we need to do better? >> I do not believe we have a handle on it. The cdc first reported back in 2014 4% of the nation's drug deaths were attributed to fentanyl.
▶ 1:16:01Chair Grassley: Five years later it increased to 40%. It almost doubled all over again in five years. We have seen this coming and we have not responded. We have seen an emerging trend. We have been playing defense. As I shared earlier, I believe it is not doing any one thing, it is doing one doesn't think simultaneously that will put us in a better position.
▶ 1:16:25Chair Grassley: As much as people do not want to recognize it, we have to deal with the demand side of this issue north of the border with our addiction crisis in this country to get people to sobriety's. We will deal with the narcotics on the supply same child by eliminating the need for the narcotics north of the border. That is the most important thing we can do as a country.
▶ 1:16:45Chair Grassley: My last question will have to be to Mr. puerta. Thank you for sharing your son's story. Some folks have said that scheduling fentanyl related to substances as a class will over criminalize drug crimes. What is your response to that?
▶ 1:17:07Mr. Puerta: I am hispanic american. I am colombian american. I believe that a lot, if not, the majority of children dying today, the new england journal of medicine came out with a report in 2024 that concluded that in 2020 we were losing 20 two nonaddictive children in the united states of america per week between the ages of 14 and 18 years of age mostly driven by
▶ 1:17:39Mr. Puerta: Illicit fentanyl pills that were deceptively sold to them. Are we not to do anything because we will over criminalize this? Every time I get up in the mirror, I see a brown man but I see an american man as well and I see that the injustice, also this crises is decimating minorities as well. This does not discriminate on your age. It does not discriminate your race.
▶ 1:18:08Mr. Puerta: It does not discriminate your religion, your socioeconomic status. It is taking everyone by storm. We as a nation have to come together and we have to do something to stop this. In 2020 with covid-19 we knew we had to stand six feet away from each other, wash our hands and wear a mask. Why does the american public not know about this crisis that is a national security crisis as well?
▶ 1:18:37Mr. Puerta: We have a lot to do but this is taking everyone by storm and something has to be done. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Ms. norring, everyone was touched by your bravery by coming forward. Thank you for everything that you have done. As you said, all the hopes and dreams that we had for devon were erased in the blink of an I and no mom should have to bury their kid.
▶ 1:19:07Mr. Puerta: Those were your words and I know the words of all of your friends there who support you and have had their all pain -- their own pain. He thought it was a percocet. You were there for that testimony with the tech executives and those of us here have had battle wounds going after them when we want sensible rules or getting rid of the legal protections that they had that other companies do not have as you so well pointed out.
▶ 1:19:40Mr. Puerta: We heard their testimony back then in january 2024. Do you think the social media company is doing enough to stop the sale of drugs to kids online?
▶ 1:19:48Ms. Norring: I do not think they are doing enough. It is still continuing. I was introduced to two new families just last week both victimized by their children passing.
▶ 1:20:11Ms. Norring: I must ask, if you are in such support of this act, all these companies are in support of the kids online safety act, why aren't they implementing those features and doing the job now? Why do we have to come before congress and have you make them do that? >> good point. Mr. puerta, should we reform section 230 in some way to make this clear?
▶ 1:20:42Mr. Puerta: Absolutely. This body came up with the section of the communication act. There cannot be free speech when you have a drug dealer selling illicit fentanyl to unsuspecting children. That is not free speech. Or a grown man sending unwarranted pictures to young ladies. Sexual exploitation. That is not.
▶ 1:21:10Mr. Puerta: Free speech if it is a criminal act in the real world, then it should be in the social world. >> you are looking for that reform and I appreciate you bringing it up. There are a number of other bills involving pornography as well. Sheriff barnes, do you agree, thank you for your testimony.
▶ 1:21:32Mr. Puerta: Funding as we look into this next year, funding for law enforcement, do you think that is important to take on this fentanyl crisis as well as the program that helps deputies get fentanyl off the street?
▶ 1:21:44Mr. Barnes: Thank you for the question. The height of funding has been stagnant for the last 10 years. It is a one third reduction over the last 10 years and our costs have done up -- gone up. It is not a fully funded program. It is funded at about 16 of the cost that we put into it and we will see subsidized through my investment as well as other agencies.
▶ 1:22:13Mr. Barnes: I think it is the nation's worst time in history. We have to reinvest those moneys. I think we have to look at what I call the essentials and stop as many of those drugs as you can before they make it into the united states. >> thank you. Dr. westlake why does this class reduce the incentive?
▶ 1:22:45Dr. Westlake: Under the normal controlled substances act, they were legal. It is a legal substance. I was on the controlled subtances board. We had nine different fentanyl we had nine different fentany variants. When you make them illegal, there is no incentive for them to be created. There is a book of changes that you can easily look up the research to find what different chemicals to use.
▶ 1:23:16Dr. Westlake: It stops the incentive. It does not stop illicit fentanyl incentive. >> one last point Ms. norring and we will talk more. I am so pleased that senator grassley and senator durbin will lead this together on some of the social media issues that go beyond the ones we have talked about now. You have also embarked on education campaigns along with a lot of our sheriffs in minnesota that I think has been pretty effective going back in the schools with one pill can kill.
▶ 1:23:46Dr. Westlake: 10 seconds on that and I'm out of time.
▶ 1:23:49Ms. Norring: We have to do it because nobody else is doing it. If we sit back and do nothing, children will continue to die. It is our obligation to educate our community and the children because as it was mentioned, the conversation really begins at home. It really has to begin at home. Thank you.
▶ 1:24:13Chair Grassley: Senator lee.
▶ 1:24:17Sen. Lee: Thank you for sharing your insights today. The fentanyl crisis has infiltrated our homes, our schools and our workplaces, taking and destroying lives at an unprecedented rate. In utah fentanyl related deaths are rising and they have become a devastating reality for too many families.
▶ 1:24:42Sen. Lee: It seems everyone knows someone and in utah, in many cases almost everyone is related to someone who has been impacted adversely, if not, lost her life due to this crisis. From 2014 to 2023, deaths involving fentanyl surged by a staggering 100 15%.
▶ 1:25:08Sen. Lee: In 2023 alone over 600 times in utah somebody came home to find their son, their daughter, sibling or parent who has lost their life due to a traffic -- tragic opioid overdose. This marks a dramatic increase from just 23 deaths in 2014.
▶ 1:25:37Sen. Lee: Utah held the record for the most fentanyl pills seized in a year. By the very next year, by july of 2024, the d.a. Rocking out in field division had already confiscated well in excess of that, close to 800 thousand pills suppressing the entire year record-breaking year of 2023, which recorded over 600,000 pills in just six months.
▶ 1:26:07Sen. Lee: The sharp increase in fentanyl related deaths has outpaced the decline that we have seen in deaths from prescription opioids. We took all of these steps as the crisis emerged in roughly a decade or so and then all of a sudden we have seen the number of deaths from the nonprescription related drugs exceeding those.
▶ 1:26:33Sen. Lee: The number of fentanyl-related deaths more than doubled between 2019 and 2020 and the trend has only gotten worse since then. The victims of this deadly scourge include our loved ones, our neighbors, our friends. Mr. puerta and Ms. norring, thank you for being with us today and sharing your testimonies. I am deeply sorry for your loss. No.
▶ 1:27:00Sen. Lee: Should ever -- no parent should ever have to face the heartbreak that you have. President trump has prioritized securing our borders and prosecuting violent gang members who traffic fentanyl into our country and throughout our communities. In congress I hope we stand with him to make america safe again.
▶ 1:27:24Sen. Lee: Sheriff barnes, from october 2023 to 2024 officials seized 22,000 pounds of fentanyl at U.S. sports. Equaling nearly 1.1 million doses. According to the dea just two milligrams of fentanyl can be fatal. Officials estimate that 10% of fentanyl crossing from mexico is actually caught.
▶ 1:27:52Sen. Lee: Do you believe the biden administration's open border policies contributed to that rapid decrease -- rapid increase of fentanyl into the united states illegally and what can be done to reverse that now?
▶ 1:28:08Mr. Barnes: Unequivocally the crisis at the border that allowed the cartels opened a gateway and they expose our weaknesses and use that against us. Yes, the open border policy undoubtedly resulted in harm to this country, to the trafficking of not just fentanyl but other things that put us at risk.
▶ 1:28:32Mr. Barnes: Not to mention the 1.8 million gotaways that we do not know who they are. >> I appreciate what you have done in orange county. It's part of the creation of names that are flattering of your county in essence that you have undertaken there suggesting that when people cross into your county, they are shocked to learn the extent at which you are willing to enforce the law.
▶ 1:28:59Mr. Barnes: California law has impeded your ability to enforce the law and make california safer. What can you tell us about that and how sanctuary jurisdictions are adversely affecting your work?
▶ 1:29:11Mr. Barnes: In 2014 we had 27 passed. Prop 36 reverse a lot of the prop 27 impacts. We have seen incarcerations go up so we are seeing positive results with accountability being restored back into california. Regarding the issues, your second question was specific to immigration -- I can speak for myself.
▶ 1:29:39Mr. Barnes: I cooperate with federal partners to the extent allowable by law. I believe those are creating harms by restricting the ability to communicate. I have to release people back into our communities who reoffend and come right back. I do not believe they should be allowed to do that. I would support challenging that law and give us the ability to cooperate with federal partners.
▶ 1:29:58Chair Grassley: Senator blumenthal. >> Sen. blumenthal: thank you, Mr. chairman. I want to thank you for having his hearing and the ranking member as well. This should unite us across the aisle. Today's hearing reflects that kind of bipartisan support for stronger measures to stop social media from spreading and setting -- selling and distributing fentanyl and other toxic chemicals.
▶ 1:30:28Chair Grassley: I am pleased to work with senator blackburn on that safety bill which would dramatically and significantly reduce the threat of these drugs. We will be reintroducing that bill I hope again with the kind of support that was reflected in the 91-3 vote in the senate supporting that bill.
▶ 1:30:47Chair Grassley: I am pleased to work with senator cruz and senator graham on measures that would reduce that threat of social and others on the committee, the ranking member and yourself. I want to raise an issue first that I think is tremendously relevant to this topic because it indicates an undercutting of law enforcement which is the mass purchase that is taking place among the ranks of our fbi.
▶ 1:31:20Chair Grassley: There is no denying that fbi agents have been fired, have been suspended and otherwise disciplined for assignments that they took on orders in connection with certain investigations. Those massive purchases are in contrary to the assurances we were given by kash patel.
▶ 1:31:52Chair Grassley: He said to us directly when I asked them, all fbi employees will be protected against political retribution. This retribution undermines enforcement by the fbi of drug cases and terrorism and other criminal cases. I ask that we call back kash patel to explain how he could deny that there would be political retribution when the next day these massive purchases began.
▶ 1:32:23Chair Grassley: I am asking questions about the reassignment apparently of ausa 's from drug cases to immigration cases. We need them on the front lines prosecuting drug cases. We need fbi agents on the front lines. We can all agree on a bipartisan basis that assistant U.S.
▶ 1:32:49Chair Grassley: Attorneys and other federal prosecutors should be at the tip of thes of the spear and that this reassignment poses a threat to law enforcement and the dangers of the prohibitions this is bringing here today. I hope we can unite around that cause. Bring back kash patel for a second hearing and jointly do our oversight which we are mandated to do on this topic. I want to thank our witnesses.
▶ 1:33:19Chair Grassley: Mr. puerta, Ms. norring, who have suffered losses that are unspeakable. All of are so deeply engaged with the story about the body bag, I will always remember . I would like to ask Ms. norring and Mr.
▶ 1:33:43Chair Grassley: Puerta whether you believe that our leadership in the senate and in the house was was responsible for stopping after the 91-3 vote, should support this legislation, the kids online safety act which had strong bipartisan backing. Should the house leadership support it?
▶ 1:34:12Ms. Norring: Thank you for that question. I believe the house should support it. 91-3 coming from this body is unheard of and it happened on my birthday last year. It was the first time in years I ever felt some sort of peace.
▶ 1:34:29Ms. Norring: I finally felt hopeful that something would be done to protect our children and to see it fail in the house, not even get out of the committee, is absurd because it is putting more children at harm not just from fentanyl but all the other harms out there. Thank you for your support on this bill. >> thank you. Mr. puerta?
▶ 1:34:52Mr. Puerta: A lot of these social media companies are driving these harmful algorithms to our children and many nefarious actors are taking advantage of that. They act as exactly that. The kids online safety act is to protect them from this nefarious activity and these harmful algorithms that are reaching them on a daily basis. Yes, I absolutely back that bill and you and anything we can do to get it over the finish line.
▶ 1:35:19Chair Grassley: Before I call senator cruz, he is done, I will leave for another meeting. He will take over so if you come over here now, I would appreciate it. Senator cruz?
▶ 1:35:36Sen. Cruz: Thank you for hosting this very important debate and this very important hearing. The american people in november issued a clear mandate. The open borders we have had must be closed. We can no longer allow criminals and gang members and drugs to stream across the border. President trump has been working every day since he was sworn in to keep his.
▶ 1:36:06Sen. Cruz: Promise to secure the border he declared a national emergency on the southern border. He reinstated the remain in the mexico policy. Just yesterday president trump negotiated that mexico will station 10,000 troops at the southern border to help stop the flow of fentanyl into the united states. President trump is doing his part to meet the mandate from the voters. We also must do our part to meet that mandate.
▶ 1:36:36Sen. Cruz: That is why I hope this committee supports the halt fentanyl act, it permanently classifies fentanyl-related substances as schedule one substances. Fentanyl and its allies are extraordinarily powerful. Congress does not talk about its dangerousness. I want to talk a little bit about that. Dr.
▶ 1:37:02Sen. Cruz: Westlake, you are an emergency room physician. How much fentanyl does it take to kill an adult human being?
▶ 1:37:10Dr. Westlake: Four to five grains is a lethal dose. >> two milligrams is what it takes. You can see on this photograph, a penny. We all know the size of a penny. Those couple of flakes are enough to kill an adult human being. Dr.
▶ 1:37:32Dr. Westlake: Westlake, last year how many people died due to fentanyl overdoses?
▶ 1:37:40Dr. Westlake: I believe it was around 70,000. >> this means 6250 people died every single month to defend every single month to d duties fentanyl -- due to fentanyl. As a law enforcement professional on the front lines of the battle with fentanyl how many, pounds were seized by customs and border patrol at the border last year?
▶ 1:38:10Dr. Westlake: >> I cannot answer that but I know it was a lot. >> 22050 pounds of fentanyl. An astronomical figure. I want to put this into context. This packet of sweet n low. If it were full of fentanyl, it could kill 500 people.
▶ 1:38:40Dr. Westlake: Take a look at this container. It is a container we are familiar with. If this were full of fentanyl, it could kill 368,500 people. More than the entire population of corpus christi, texas. Let's look at another packet. Something we all will likely have in our kitchen.
▶ 1:39:12Dr. Westlake: This single bag of sugar, if it were filled with fentanyl, could kill 905 thousand people. Almost one million people. This single bag could take out the entire population of austin, texas, the capital of my home state. Imagine 562 of these bags.
▶ 1:39:43Dr. Westlake: That is how much fentanyl came into the united states of america in a single month. How many lethal doses of fentanyl is in 562 bags? 510 million lethal doses in one month.
▶ 1:40:11Dr. Westlake: More fentanyl came into america than would be needed to kill every single man, woman and child in the united states. This is a crisis we have to solve. Mr. puerta, Ms. norring, thank you for being here. Thank you for your courage. As the father of two teenage girls, you have lived a nightmare that every parent is terrified of. What I would ask is what would you say to parents at home?
▶ 1:40:43Dr. Westlake: What do parents at home need to know about this? What do teenagers and kids at home need to know about the dangers of fentanyl?
▶ 1:40:49Mr. Puerta: If you don't think this can happen to you, but you are still really mistaken. This is taking everybody by storm. That is what I would tell every single parent. Most people think this could not affect their family because either they don't have someone who is addicted to drugs in their family or someone who is using drugs in a recreational basis. Children make mistakes.
▶ 1:41:17Mr. Puerta: I do not condone my son daniel wanted to self medicate during the height of the pandemic for whatever was happening in his head. I do not condone it. He made a mistake and the price that he paid with his life. Children are supposed to make mistakes but not die from them. That is what is happening every single day, 22 times per week in the united states of america. We have to stop this.
▶ 1:41:45Ms. Norring: I echo the same thing. The saying, not my kid. Take that out of your vocabulary because it could be your kid. We had every conversation with their children about addiction because on both sides of our family, we had members who suffered. But nobody at the time was talking about this crisis so I feel robbed of the conversation I could have had with my son that could have saved his life.
▶ 1:42:15Ms. Norring: Take that out of your vocabulary. This very well could have been and it could very well happen. These dealers are on snapchat and all platforms. Every single one of them. The majority of the time, it comes back as this does not violate our standards. Monitor your children's social media accounts. Have the conversation. It could save a child's life. >> thank you. >> Mr. shift.
▶ 1:42:50Sen. Schiff: Thank you for being here. I want to express my heartbreak at hearing about the loss of your sons. I cannot imagine what you have gone through and like every parent of college-age kids or high school-aged kids, I've had those conversations with my kids .
▶ 1:43:16Sen. Schiff: I'm grateful that you are here will be willing to share your experience that is so important for us to hear. Doctor I want to ask you. One of the concerns I heard about the bill was the concern that it could inhibit research. You made a comment that was too quick for me to catch about nih's view or others.
▶ 1:43:41Sen. Schiff: Is there a need to have language to make sure the research can go on or do you feel it is a nonissue?
▶ 1:43:49Dr. Westlake: This is a compromise bill. The initial language was pure scheduling language. There was concern it could impact research negatively. The research component was added and supported through the first trump ondcp. The research accommodations that were reached opened up all schedule on research, not just into fentanyl-related substances.
▶ 1:44:16Dr. Westlake: >> so that has been incorporated into a new version of the bill?
▶ 1:44:21Dr. Westlake: Correct.
▶ 1:44:25Sen. Schiff: Thank you. It is very helpful. If I could ask you Ms. norring and Mr. puerta. What do you think is working in terms of trying to educate families, young people and what more do we need to do?
▶ 1:44:49Sen. Schiff: I fully agree with the need to we need to make sure that companies using platforms are allowing them to be used and there should be held liable. What do you think is working in terms of educating families, schools and others about how they should incorporate this into their teaching and have the supplies on hand necessary to deal with emergencies?
▶ 1:45:16Mr. Puerta: We have a documentary called "dead on arrival." you can find it at stoptheavoid ductwork. It is a documentary that we use in california, orange county high schools have done it. Education awareness is key in evading these senseless deaths.
▶ 1:45:47Mr. Puerta: These kids do not know what they are ingesting. They are dying because they have been effectively sold a counterfeit bill that they think is a pharmacy great oxycodone and it turns out that they end up getting a fake and they end up dying. We need to do this nationwide. Steve hilson says it all the time. With covid-19, we needed to have a mask and wash your hands.
▶ 1:46:14Mr. Puerta: Why on a federal level have we not had a campaign of sorts warning, parents and children of the danger of recreational drug use? That is very key because due to the stigma of addition -- addiction, most people don't understand the problem of what it is. As well as naloxone. It was a three-pronged approach.
▶ 1:46:46Mr. Puerta: Naloxone is widely available on college campuses and high schools is helping the situation a little bit but we need to do more.
▶ 1:46:56Ms. Norring: The education and awareness piece is huge but we face roadblocks all the time of schools who don't want us to come into their schools because they feel that we may in a sense give kids the idea that it is ok to go to these drugs and it is so ridiculous. We have shown "dead on arrival." we do that often times.
▶ 1:47:21Ms. Norring: We also show the "come back home" films that was produced which is told from the youth preventative side of things. When you hear from the youth directly on this crisis, that is so impactful. We pride ourselves on going into the community, doing community events, bringing the community together, doing naloxone trainings, getting the information out there, reducing the stigma of this crisis.
▶ 1:47:51Ms. Norring: I say poisoning while so many say overdose. You will never hear me say that my son overdosed because my son was poisoned. I know that if my son knew that that pill was going to take his life, he would have never taken it. Mike senator klobuchar said, all of my hopes and dreams for his future are gone. Not only that, his dreams were erased in the blink of an eye. I mirror your sentiment. Our government really needs to step up and start taking the handle on this.
▶ 1:48:25Ms. Norring: We are parents spending a lot of money out of our pockets. Most of us do not qualify for public grants or anything like that. Why don't we have the campaign? Kids are dying. You would think that would be a priority and yet it is us out there doing work and we will do it because that means potentially a child's life is saved.
▶ 1:48:48Sen. Schiff: Thank you for your testimony and to all the parents who are here representing their children. I want to thank you for your advocacy. It is really important for us to see you and to hear you. Thank you for your testimony. >> I could not agree more. I would like to enter into the record a letter of support from nine organizations that represent the medical community led by the american society of neurosurgeons.
▶ 1:49:16Sen. Schiff: Their letter commands are bipartisan leadership in addressing the fentanyl epidemic and notes that the temporary schedule classification is not sustainable. They note that "continually revisiting the classification creates confusion about the dangers of these substitutes -- substances and hampers efforts to address the crisis comprehensive lee." I asked consent to the entirety of the record be entered into the record. Thank you. Senator hawley.
▶ 1:49:47Sen. Hawley: Thank you. Thank you for the witnesses for being here. Thank you to the parents who are in the room today. You have highlighted the true crisis that we are facing. In my home state of missouri in 2022 alone, child fatalities from fentanyl doubled in 2022. Deaths for children under the age of five increased by more than 500%.
▶ 1:50:15Sen. Hawley: Fentanyl is a leading cause of death in the state of missouri. The fate of your family is being replicated all over my state as well. That is a wake-up call. We need to seal the border against those who would traffic illicit drugs into this country and prosecute those who are doing it. I want to zeroing in on something that you both talked about.
▶ 1:50:40Sen. Hawley: Where your own child was exposed to these illegal drugs, snapchat and social media platforms, you said a second ago that you have repeatedly reported drug dealers and other illicit posts on social media platforms using the platform reporting rules. You said most of the time, the vast majority of the time, the answer you get is this is a valid account and we cannot do anything. Is that correct?
▶ 1:51:09Ms. Norring: That is correct. >> I see parents behind you who are nodding. You were out there reporting. I have read your testimony. You had a meeting with snapchat executives in the spring of 2021. They told you. Just walk us through that.
▶ 1:51:36Ms. Norring: You reported to them what was going on on their own platform and they told you what exactly?
▶ 1:51:41Ms. Norring: The first three things out of their mouth was we had no idea this was happening on our platform. You cannot sue us because we are protected under section 230. As parents, you should have been monitoring your children better. My son was 19 when he died. How do you monitor an adult?
▶ 1:52:03Ms. Norring: How do you monitor a child on an app in which the whole allure to these kids is the fact that the messages disappear? That is something I brought to their attention. They had no response. They don't care.
▶ 1:52:19Sen. Hawley: They don't care and it is interesting they pointed out to you that you cannot sue them. What do you think one of the reasons is that they don't really change? You are meeting with them, reporting these incidents. They are not doing anything. Do you have a guess as to why they don't change?
▶ 1:52:40Ms. Norring: There is no incentive to. Anyone with the reporting feature, that was something we were pointed out to. We should have known this existed. He had no idea this existed. After my son passed, multiple teens in my town report of the dealers that allegedly harmed my son and all that would happen is they would take down the account. These dealers would go and get a new burner phone, set up a new account.
▶ 1:53:10Ms. Norring: Snapshot -- snapchat says we have ip blockers that recognize the devices. They are buying burner phones. They are going to a coffee shop, the school, the library and setting up a new account. The dealers in my community left at snapchat. We are back, baby. Seriously.
▶ 1:53:32Sen. Hawley: I want to highlight what you said. Everyone who is watching this and every member of this committee needs to understand what you said which is that the social media platforms don't change because they have no incentive which is a polite way of saying there is no hammer on these people. They do whatever they want because nobody can hold them accountable. They let their mask slipped when you walked into their offices and told them that they participated in killing their children because that is what happened.
▶ 1:54:02Sen. Hawley: They make money off of it because they are making billions of dollars on their social media platforms. They are killing our kids, exposing them to all kinds of ungodly material and they won't do anything because we can hold them accountable. I want to say to members of this body, that has to change. It is time to give parents the right to sue these platforms. No company in america has the liability shield that these companies have. They can do whatever they want to our kids and we can do anything about it.
▶ 1:54:31Sen. Hawley: I say that as a father of three children. I am terrified of what my kids might find on social media for the reasons you have given today. As a parent, I cannot do anything about it if these companies split my children. It is time for that to change. We know how to change it. The way to change it is to give the parents in this country the right to get into court to allow them to sue these companies. It is time.
▶ 1:54:59Sen. Hawley: Until this body take that action, I have to say almost nothing else we do is serious. You can fine them. They don't care. Until plaintiffs can get into court, nothing will change. I will introduce legislation to this country -- congress to allow parents to go to court and sue these companies and I call on every member of this committee and every member to support this effort to get justice for your children. Thank you for being here today. >> senator padilla.
▶ 1:55:32Sen. Padilla: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to focus on this crisis today with one caveat. It is a little disappointing to continue to stick to an inaccurate narrative that the fentanyl crisis crisis in america is an immigration problem. The fentanyl crisis in america is a health crisis.
▶ 1:56:04Sen. Padilla: It is a public safety crisis. As we have heard from testimonies today, it is a life and death crisis. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of fentanyl that is smuggled into the united states is brought in through legal ports of entry by primarily united states citizens. Do not just take my word for it.
▶ 1:56:35Sen. Padilla: Look atc pb look atc cpb data. I know the accuracy has been called into question. Do not mistake my words in condoning that anybody attempting to come to the united states unlawfully that happens to be carrying fentanyl should be off the hook. I disagree.
▶ 1:57:03Sen. Padilla: If data is important for driving policy decisions and informing strategic actions, let's look at the facts. 80% plus of the fentanyl interceptor that the border is being brought in through ports of entry by united states citizens. Again, folks coming through unlawfully. I am not saying ignore them. But let's not ignore where the concentration of the problem is.
▶ 1:57:34Sen. Padilla: I would ask the witness is today what strategies we should implement through the department of justice, through the department of homeland security and they will have opportunities for other doj officials in the coming days and weeks to do that and we should.
▶ 1:57:49Sen. Padilla: I will suggest colleagues that the recent changes by the administration at the department of justice that have resulted in the shifting of critical resources including from the fbi, including from the d.a., including the atf toward immigration enforcement which, let's be honest with ourselves, is not exclusive to violent criminals. It is everybody.
▶ 1:58:20Sen. Padilla: Minor offenses. People who have not committed any offense other than they came illegally and they are criminals. A horrible way to think about this. It is doing a disservice to our efforts to crack down on fentanyl and other drugs that are hurting so many of our kids.
▶ 1:58:46Sen. Padilla: My first question, can you explain how diverting law enforcement resources can undermine fentanyl investigations and make it harder to disrupt trafficking networks?
▶ 1:59:01Dr. Farfan: The U.S. has a task force made up of several agencies. Department of justice, homeland security and other departments. Putting together investigations to take down trafficking networks is a long process. It takes interagency coordination and international cooperation including with mexico.
▶ 1:59:29Dr. Farfan: When you detract those recourses will be them to another cast -- task, you are undermining long-term efforts to try to precisely bring criminal groups to justice. So in the world that we have of limited resources when you take away from one area, he will impact another. There is definitely a concern of weakening these organized crime enforcement taskforces.
▶ 1:59:58Sen. Padilla: It is ok if you don't know the answer but in case you do, there is only one legal gun store in mexico? >> correct. Mexico only has one legal gun store.
▶ 2:00:15Sen. Padilla: So for all leaders clamping down on the criminal organizations that are arming themselves with weapons treasured from the united states according to atf data, I am not sorry for relying on our own data, up to 500,000 U.S. sourced firearms for traffic into mexico every year with 70% of crimes recovered tracing back to the united states.
▶ 2:00:44Sen. Padilla: The mexican president has stated that president trump agreed to work on reducing the flow of guns into mexico as part of the deal to delay the tariffs. What steps should the U.S. take to uphold that commitment? >> if you could keep your answer short?
▶ 2:01:03Dr. Farfan: When you say that you want to save the lives of american children and americans in general, the fentanyl market is not isolated. In that conversation president trump has to have a conversation about how you prevent criminal groups from having the firepower that make addressing supply on the mexican side difficult.
▶ 2:01:36Dr. Farfan: These are shared tragedies for mexico and the U.S.. Crime is transnational. Should this solution also be transnational? >> thank you. I want to address the argument that U.S. citizens bring the most fentanyl into the united states, not illegal immigrants. It has pointed to some incomplete seizure and arrest statistics that support that argument.
▶ 2:02:01Dr. Farfan: With the open border policies of the biden administration over the last four years, we do not know the full scale of drugs smuggled into this nation. The prosecution statistics only account for individuals that were actually caught, prosecuted and sentenced, not criminals who managed to actually evade detection. The washington post says that federal officials estimate they were only catching five to 10% of fentanyl that is coming from mexico. Do that math.
▶ 2:02:32Dr. Farfan: If that is true, then we are only catching, we are not catching 90% to 95% of the fentanyl coming across the southern border. We have to be honest about that. That should alarm every single one of us. It also shows why border security is an important component to stopping the flow of fentanyl. Senator kennedy.
▶ 2:02:55Sen. Kennedy: Dr. farfan, the president of mexico up until 2024 ways president -- was president and he ran with respect to the cartels on the
▶ 2:03:25Sen. Kennedy: Slogan, "hugs, not bullets." is that right?
▶ 2:03:34Dr. Farfan Mendez: He did not run on that slogan.
▶ 2:03:38Sen. Kennedy: Yes he did. His hand-picked successor is president sheinbaum, is that correct?
▶ 2:03:47Dr. Farfan Mendez: Gloria sheinbaum.
▶ 2:03:51Sen. Kennedy: In my right? Dashcam I write -- am I right?
▶ 2:04:02Dr. Farfan Mendez: Yes.
▶ 2:04:06Sen. Kennedy: I love the country of mexico. Isn't it a big part of the problem that president lopez and then president sheinbaum live in the right front pocket of the mexican drug cartels?
▶ 2:04:22Dr. Farfan Mendez: I disagree with that statement.
▶ 2:04:24Sen. Kennedy: I thought you might. You want more taskforces. Dr. westlake. This represents 400 grams of fentanyl. It can kill every person in providence, rhode island. If you get caught with this, you get 10 years minimum.
▶ 2:05:04Sen. Kennedy: This represents 40 grams of fentanyl. It will kill every single man, woman, and child in culpeper, virginia. If you get caught with this amount as a dealer, you get a five year minimum sentence. This is where it gets special. This represents 10 grams of pcp.
▶ 2:05:38Sen. Kennedy: If you get caught with it, you get five years minimum. Is fentanyl more dangerous than pcp?
▶ 2:05:50Dr. Westlake: Absolutely. Fentanyl can be classified as a lethal weapon.
▶ 2:05:57Sen. Kennedy: This is five grams of meth. That is what this represents. If you get caught with it, your minimum sentence is five years. It is fentanyl -- you get caught with this much fentanyl, 10 years. You get caught with this much fentanyl, five years.
▶ 2:06:27Sen. Kennedy: Get caught with this much, meth. You can hardly see it. You get five years. Does that make sense to you?
▶ 2:06:35Dr. Westlake: No, sir.
▶ 2:06:38Sen. Kennedy: It is like stupid, isn't it? You don't need a task force to see the un-logic. I have a bill that I have reintroduced. The mandatory minimum for 40 grams of fentanyl to two grams of fentanyl. It will lower the 10 year mandatory minimum for 400 grams of fentanyl to 20 grams of fentanyl.
▶ 2:07:10Sen. Kennedy: This bill will not punish addicts. It will help. It is not going to help until president lopez and president sheinbaum get out of the pockets of the drug cartels. But it is a start. This will punish dealers. Thank you madam chair.
▶ 2:07:41Sen. Kennedy: >> senator whitehouse.
▶ 2:07:45Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you. Welcome to the witnesses. We have real problems in this country was and what addiction -- with opioid addiction.
▶ 2:08:02Sen. Whitehouse: I was the lead democrat on the opioid addiction recovery act which both changed the nature of the response to this with a lot more emphasis on recovery and perfection -- prevention. It ended up with significant funding that has flowed through states to help the groups who are helping people through their addiction and recovery.
▶ 2:08:27Sen. Whitehouse: At this point as best I can tell, the trump funding freeze is blocking dollars that would otherwise be flowing to treatment and recovery groups around the country. In some cases, it is not that they are being told no. It is that they cannot get a straight answer.
▶ 2:08:59Sen. Whitehouse: The confusion could be a deliberate fog to obscure the freeze. The lawsuits that will help clarify that. In the meantime it is notable when we are dealing with this issue to understand that the trump administration has unilaterally frozen funds that flow through this problem.
▶ 2:09:28Sen. Whitehouse: Our community health centers are seeing funds similarly either blocked or fogged so that they cannot get an answer and it is through health centers that a lot of people get to treatment to deal with addiction and recovery issues.
▶ 2:09:51Sen. Whitehouse: I hope that we can get this freeze issue resolved now that two courts have found that it is illegal in the same way that the trump administration does not seem to respect the power of the purse in congress and it is not clear that they respect the power of the courts to decide what the law is. We will have to see but we are clearly outside of constitutional bounds.
▶ 2:10:22Sen. Whitehouse: People who count on addiction and recovery services are in the target hairs of this. We have agreed as a committee and we have done some good work together as a committee to try to put pressure on drug sales that have come via the internet and through social media.
▶ 2:10:49Sen. Whitehouse: It is disturbing to me that president trump pardoned an individual who ran a drug selling dark web sight. He also had some murder for hire accusations just to add a little bit of color to what a decent person he was. The place we can make the most progress is with section 230.
▶ 2:11:20Sen. Whitehouse: I applaud the litigation that is going forward. I applaud the lawyers who have negotiated the hurdles that congress has erected to the american system of justice having its role in dealing with these deaths and with these tragedies. I think there is bipartisan support for appealing section 230. I am all for that and the sooner we do that, the better we are.
▶ 2:11:47Sen. Whitehouse: It is simply wrong for these enormously powerful social media entities to have rights to do harm to americans without accountability that no other entity shares. They have blown any excuse to maintain that privilege position with their behavior. Let's go for 230.
▶ 2:12:19Sen. Whitehouse: With respect to enforcement, reassigning fbi, doj and dea agents off of this task is not a good idea. We will find out more about how many were reassigned. Cutting fincen dollars is a big mistake. I will close with a question to Dr. farfan.
▶ 2:12:46Sen. Whitehouse: We put a lot of attention into interdicting just networks for drugs. We put a small effort into introductory the financial return of that money, the hiding of that money into international accounts and dark money banking and covid other systems.
▶ 2:13:01Sen. Whitehouse: What more should we be doing to get after the financing of these cartels and is the gun traffic back to them part of the payment to them for the drugs that we try to interdict? >> we are out of time so keep your response brief.
▶ 2:13:22Sen. Whitehouse: >> customarily it is as long as the witness -- question is asked before the clock runs out, though the witness gets to answer it.
▶ 2:13:36Dr. Farfan Mendez: Because money-laundering takes place across jurisdictions, it also requires cooperation. The best cases we have seen between mexico and the united states of this amount of money-laundering operations has to do with working together between two governments. I understand this is not easily done but these are the most effective cases of money-laundering. Firearms trafficking is part of that.
▶ 2:14:00Dr. Farfan Mendez: There is a clear notion that drugs normally come from the south and firearms and money flow from the united states to mexico. There is a linkage between these two criminal markets. If we want to save lives by tackling the fentanyl supply, we should pay attention to money and firearms.
▶ 2:14:18Sen. Whitehouse: I appreciate your courtesy. >> with regard to social media, I appreciate the work that was done on this committee. Certainly senator blumenthal and senator blackburn and the work they have done to address this. As a mom of a 14 and 15-year-old who knows that snapchat is used to tell people which color uniform they are supposed to wear that day or they use it to figure out where friends are going to meet. You think that this can happen to anyone, anywhere.
▶ 2:14:50Sen. Whitehouse: I am so grateful for you both using your voice to speak up and speak directly to this issue. Thank you. I want to address complaints about the brief pause on grant funding. It is important to note that this was a temporary pause to the extent permitted by law. Law enforcement grants are not handed out during this time of year. Our constituent needs will continue to be taken care of while president trump delivers on the elected him to do.
▶ 2:15:18Sen. Whitehouse: Voters asked him to grow our economy, protect our communities and ensure that taxpayer dollars are used wisely, examining spending as part of that. President has always back to the blue just like chairman grassley and just like myself. One more thing before we move on.
▶ 2:15:37Sen. Whitehouse: I would like to enter into the record a letter of support from 11 law enforcement organizations who halt fentanyl including the national office of narcotics association which is in town for its annual conference. We have several of their members here today as guests of chairman grassley. These organizations represent constituents from each of our states and a significant portion of our nation's federal state and local law enforcement communities.
▶ 2:16:05Sen. Whitehouse: As their letter says for the sake of public safety, we must pass halt fentanyl act. Senator blackburn.
▶ 2:16:14Sen. Blackburn: Thank you so much. I am so sorry for your loss. You said that your son had an adhd diagnosis. I was looking at figures last week from our medicaid program in tennessee. There are over 400,000 children in our state of 7 million people that have an adhd diagnosis.
▶ 2:16:48Sen. Blackburn: I know that we have so many times seen kids that deal with the pain of trying to get something and my heart breaks for you. I hope we take a deeper dive. If confirmed, that robert f. Kennedy, jr. Take a deeper dive into how we mitigate children and work on these issues. Thank you for the good work that you are doing. Ms.
▶ 2:17:15Sen. Blackburn: Norring, thank you for your support. I appreciate that. We share your heartbreak. I stepped out of committee to go speak to a group of children that are here. They are working on this issue. The work that you and other parents have done has encouraged these children to stand up and be a resource to their peers and to help them through this issue.
▶ 2:17:49Sen. Blackburn: I thank you for that good work that you are doing. Sheriff barnes, I want to talk with you. In 2022 we had a number of criminal organizations that were dismantled.
▶ 2:18:07Sen. Blackburn: We had over 8700 kilograms of drugs removed nationally and in tennessee, the tbi director every time he sees me he says we have to reauthorize hida because it is effective. Hida task force in tennessee was responsible for removing $51 million of drugs off of the market.
▶ 2:18:35Sen. Blackburn: Talk for a minute about why it is crucial that hida be reauthorized for law enforcement officers like you.
▶ 2:18:42Mr. Puerta: Thank you, senator blackburn and thank you for the reauthorization of hida. It is very important. I will summarize it this way. This time in our nation's history, the worst time of narcotics. It is not the time to disenfranchise or divest from the hida program. Hida programs are national.
▶ 2:19:11Mr. Puerta: They rely on local law enforcement task force is and contributions. It does not really fully fund the hida program. With our municipal agencies having hiring problems, they are stepping away from the hida programs. Keeping them staffed is difficult.
▶ 2:19:34Sen. Blackburn: I want to stay with you, sheriff. I have talked to some of our law enforcement agency's and they have talked about sanctuary city policies. I know that senator lee brought this up with you.
▶ 2:19:56Sen. Blackburn: It seems that in a sanctuary city, to go after these traffickers, that it is more difficult, that sometimes you have to find workarounds. I would love for you to talk for just a minute about what we can do that would help you all as you try to deal with these sanctuary cities to get these drugs off the streets.
▶ 2:20:21Mr. Puerta: Senator, it is even worse for me in california. There was a law passed that prohibits my dialogue with federal partners on immigration issues. I have the ability to turn high-level offenders into ice which will turn them back into the communities where they will reoffend. I am a supporter of abolishing that sb 54 movement.
▶ 2:20:54Mr. Puerta: We have to cooperate with the federal partners. If we hold these criminals accountable, this is about the general public who is interested -- entrusted.
▶ 2:21:11Sen. Blackburn: So many people will say, when they get back out, when the evade law enforcement in these sanctuary cities, that they really return even more committed to abuse people in those communities where they have been trafficking those drugs to pick up the pace of selling the drugs.
▶ 2:21:42Sen. Blackburn: I think of how difficult it makes your job when you are trying to keep our communities safe and we thank you for the work you are doing. We thank each of you for being here today. Senator blumenthal and I will continue to push to get that foundational law that will allow us to hold social media to account. Thank you all. >> thank you.
▶ 2:22:12Sen. Schmitt: Thank you. Two hearings and you are chairing the committee. It is amazing. Thank you for recognizing me. As a parent of three young children, thank you for being here and sharing your stories.
▶ 2:22:32Sen. Schmitt: I cannot imagine how difficult it is to do this but it is incredibly effective when you show love and you share those stories and humanize this into an issue that can very often become about different things than the actual human impact. From my perspective, I was an attorney general in the state of missouri and I served with senator moody.
▶ 2:23:00Sen. Schmitt: We went down to the border and learned a lot about the activity and how the cartels and it is not just the drugs. The value of the human trafficking alone, and this is a few years ago, was $100 million per week.
▶ 2:23:26Sen. Schmitt: We are not even talking about the value of the drugs they are moving in the zones of influence that they have into the interior of the united states. This is a serious crisis. Obviously it is killing too many of our young men and women in this country and communities across the country. Every state truly is a border state when it comes to this.
▶ 2:23:54Sen. Schmitt: In that vein about the cartels, I want to ask you, in your view, is mexico doing a love -- doing enough from a law enforcement perspective as it relates to the cartels?
▶ 2:24:14Dr. Farfan Mendez: In both countries, they need to do more. >> in mexico. I want to ask specifically. Part of the reason you are here is to speak to that relationship between the U.S. and mexico.
▶ 2:24:27Dr. Farfan Mendez: There is definitely more that can be done. >> what would that be?
▶ 2:24:33Dr. Farfan Mendez: It is working closely with U.S. counterparts. It is also having the diagnosis of this connection between these markets, arms trafficking, drug trafficking to really benefit communities on both sides of the border.
▶ 2:24:49Dr. Farfan Mendez: >> there are some high-profile cases, a new testimony from witnesses who were once members of the cartels that there is widespread corruption at high levels of the mexican government that are preventing them from doing what they should do to crack down on the cartels. Do you share those concerns?
▶ 2:25:23Dr. Farfan-Mendez: I understand there are concerns about corruption within mexico. I understand there are questions about needing to address that. Having said that, general accusations about corruption of the entire government, those are not productive.
▶ 2:25:42Sen. Schmitt: I guess what I am at is there are people and I get the complexities of some testimony. It is not just a one-off example. The concern I have is that there is very little being spent on law enforcement. I do not know that this has been given the attention that it should. Hopefully that dynamic is changing.
▶ 2:26:12Sen. Schmitt: I think the cooperation is really important on this. There is no doubt about that. I will turn my attention to you, sheriff time, you do have sort of one arm tied behind your back I guess with the laws in the state of california, century status, which I don't pretend to understand it at all. It is a mess.
▶ 2:26:38Sen. Schmitt: When I was ag in missouri, we had some unique partnerships where we deputized people in our office and the attorney's office to go after people with a violent crime that at a local level they were not choosing to pursue. If you have your arm tied behind your back, that is a way forward , you have to have more federal agents working with the U.S. attorneys to go after these folks because of the local level, that is harder to do.
▶ 2:27:06Sen. Schmitt: >> so there are two parts to that question. Under california law, I am unable to hold ice detainees in my jails. Regarding the federal tax first or detaining officers or those who are attorneys to prosecute on behalf of the U.S. attorney's office, that is being done in california, not specific to immigration, specific to fentanyl directly.
▶ 2:27:49Sen. Schmitt: Thank you. >> the coalition supports millions of high school and middle school students across the nation and has been effective in reducing youth substance use and abuse. We thank them for their support. Senator hirono.
▶ 2:28:12Sen. Hirono: Thank you. Of course, my sympathies. Obviously, this is a complicated question in the sense that we have disagreements on who is bringing in fentanyl to our country, but we all know that is
▶ 2:28:42Sen. Hirono: Creating basically a havoc, and I particularly was interested in noting how we can prevent people from getting access to fentanyl. At the same time, we need a justice department that is stable.
▶ 2:28:59Sen. Hirono: Right now, there is chaos as this administration tries to eliminate anybody who can stand up to them, and in addition when they want the names of everyone who had anything to do with the january 6 investigations and prosecutions, we are talking about potentially thousands of fbi agent, c can imagine the chaos that is going on in that department.
▶ 2:29:33Sen. Hirono: I know you mentioned dead on arrival as a documentary that is shown. At what age do you think children should be when they are learned to not buy anything on the internet, in terms of prevention?
▶ 2:29:56Sen. Hirono: And the documentary like the one you mentioned. >> it is a documentary we use in high schools. We started with fifth and sixth graders as well. We started in california.
▶ 2:30:24Sen. Hirono: I have a stack of letters from high school students, junior high school students, elementary school students who have seen this documentary that had no idea of the impending and had na and had ng illicit feanyl was as easy as ordering a pizza through snapchat. That is how dangerous it is.
▶ 2:30:45Sen. Hirono: The danger of this drug as they can die on first use.
▶ 2:30:53Mr. Puerta: 22 per week died after first use. 22 a week.
▶ 2:31:02Sen. Hirono: So easy to obtain on the internet, and that is why there are a number of us on this committee who have raised the issue of very dramatically limiting the immunity for social platforms because what parents in particular have to go through just to hold these entities accountable, it should not be that way. There are a number of us on that page.
▶ 2:31:33Sen. Hirono: Miss norring, I believe you mentioned there are schools that do not want to provide this information for fear of something. I want you to go in little bit over why that is. Also, what can we do at the federal level to support the kind of prevention that you both I believe are engaged in?
▶ 2:31:56Ms. Norring: Thank you for that question. I feel that this education needs to be taught as early as elementary school. I believe from my own work done back home, 12 euros is where they are starting so the earlier we can reach them, definitely the better. Back home the schools, it is multiple roadblocks.
▶ 2:32:27Ms. Norring: They don't want it in their schools. There is not enough time in the school year. The stigma that it could create more kids going out there and being exposed to these. We have seen a decline in the dare programs for that reason.
▶ 2:32:39Sen. Hirono: Short of requiring this kind of education to be available, what can we do at the federal level to promote and support your efforts?
▶ 2:32:50Ms. Norring: I know that was a big thing with families like mine wishing to get schools to carry a locked zone. Our legalizing marijuana bill, in the year 2025, schools are required now to provide fentanyl poisoning education.
▶ 2:33:11Ms. Norring: With the legalization of that, it is kind of hypocritical to have that education piece in my opinion because now we are think it is ok to do one drug but these drugs, stay away from these ones. >> most of these nonprofits are made up of bereaved families that would come together and feel like the government did not do enough and we felt like we could not sit idly by and watch these children die on a daily basis.
▶ 2:33:39Ms. Norring: I think one of the things that can really be helpful from the federal government is giving us grants to community organizations like ourselves. Because we don't really fall into a certain category where we can get grants to do this. We are self-funded actually, and it is difficult to do that, especially when traveling across the nation doing the work we do. But we don't charge any money for what we do. We charge zero dollars to go to a school. We take time out of our days and weeks.
▶ 2:34:12Ms. Norring: Up in lake county, california, a full week educating 5000 students on the dangers of in the set fentanyl. Community grants for our specific I guess niche for lack of a better word would be great.
▶ 2:34:24Sen. Hirono: I think that is something we could do provided we have an administration that will not put a hold on all grants to entities such as yours. Thank you very much for your testimony and your suggestion. >> thank you. As has been discussed here today, in 2024, cpb seized approximately 22,000 pounds of fentanyl at U.S.
▶ 2:34:51Sen. Hirono: Ports of entry get on our southern border and our northern border as well as coastal and interior ports. That is nearly 1.1 billion doses. That averages out to approximately three doses for every person residing in the united states.
▶ 2:35:10Sen. Hirono: And perhaps of even greater concern, it has been estimated and mentioned earlier that only 5% to 10% of the fentanyl crossing the border is actually being interdicted. The flow of do drugs across our border is impacting our communities, including in alabama.
▶ 2:35:36Sen. Hirono: An addiction council discussed the alarming increase in fentanyl related overdose deaths and poisonings in alabama between 2018 and 2022. In 2022, alabama seized a total of 8300 grams of fentanyl, which is equivalent to 8.3 million lethal doses, enough to kill everyone in the state of alabama plus 3 million more.
▶ 2:36:02Sen. Hirono: In fy 2024, that number was up to 12,400 grams of fentanyl. So let's be clear, these numbers increasing actually represent more devastated families and more deaths. I have sat across from far too many parents and my short time in the united states senate that are grieving just as you two are. I just want to say again, thank you for sharing your story.
▶ 2:36:33Sen. Hirono: I will have our team clip your testimony, put it together so we can help begin that psa. You are changing lives. You are here today not only to see change in law but to make sure that we save lives so no one else has to go through what you did. So thank you for sharing your story.
▶ 2:36:52Sen. Hirono: I can promise you with every ounce of me, we will do everything we can to elevate it, to ask parents to watch your testimony today, to ask parents to listen to what you are saying so that they do not have to go through the unthinkable you have. And we are just so grateful for your willingness to be here.
▶ 2:37:10Sen. Hirono: What I would like to know, sheriff bargains, you have testified regarding this issue before but can you tell us your perspective from a local law enforcement officer why you think the federal government needs a more effective strategy in place that we have seen over the last four years at our southern border in particular, and what elements of the strategy should look like, and how congress can work with the president to implement these types of things moving forward? >> yes.
▶ 2:37:40Sen. Hirono: Thank you, senator. I have testified to this before. Post 9/11 where we are today, the threat horizon is so much broader than it was years ago. It comes with all of these other crimes, cyber, fentanyl, human trafficking. They are all on the same platform. Specific to fentanyl, we had to work laterally and that means with our federal partners, state partners, and local partners.
▶ 2:38:08Sen. Hirono: Laterally with all the different efforts being put forth on the trafficking entities that are disparately addressed in this issue. I believe we have a problem with communications. If we are going to do a great offense, we have to communicate with our federal partners at the border, finding where the efforts are to pivot around those. In most importantly, be aware of the issues the maritime will face because of the closure at the border.
▶ 2:38:38Sen. Hirono: They will pivot to the waterways.
▶ 2:38:39Sen. Britt: Thank you. Dr. westlake, first I want to thank you for the incredible work you have done as a medical professional and an advocate working to protect americans from the dangers of illicit drugs like fentanyl. In my view, we need to be as bold as possible when it comes to taking steps to protecting american children and families from the scourge of fentanyl. That is one of the reasons I am a cosponsor of the act.
▶ 2:39:09Sen. Britt: Given your work on the issue , can you comment on the impact frs scheduling has had on the enforcement landscape over the last several years and if there are any myths about class scheduling you would like to dispel?
▶ 2:39:27Dr. Westlake: Thank you for the question. The myths that were there was people work incarcerated from it , it is hard to prove that people are not being incarcerated for it for the same reason that people are not dying from it, because it does not exist. I do not envy the job you have up here on the dais of addressing this.
▶ 2:39:53Dr. Westlake: One of the things you address is the scourge but there is no impact that is negative. That saves people's lives. It is a proven strategy. Bipartisan last session. Probably more this session. I encourage that to happen.
▶ 2:40:13Sen. Britt: Thank you. Thank you all for your time today. I am going to recognize senator moody. Also, this is the fastest rise to the top ever. You will be chairing this committee as I go to vote.
▶ 2:40:27Sen. Moody: This is appropriate because this has been one of my priorities as attorney general. If you are a family number that has lost a loved one or lot forstmann official who stood by that family and worked with someone who has lost a loved one, will you stand up? I just wanted this hearing to reflect the power of americans coming together under such tragic loss to get something done.
▶ 2:40:58Sen. Moody: Thank you so much. Thank you, katie britt. This was one of my priorities as attorney general but not because I was the attorney general. It was because I worked alongside so many people who lost loved ones come a lot enforcement. I am a mother of a teenager. I am a wife of a law enforcement officer. This is the number one killer of working and fighting age americans, period.
▶ 2:41:29Sen. Moody: So we have a lot to deal with. A lot on our plates as leaders in this nation. This is the number one killer of working and fighting age americans right now. It has been. And if I sound upset about the fact that we have not moved faster on this, that is justified. I want to commend chairman grassley, who called this hearing.
▶ 2:41:54Sen. Moody: The last four years, this committee has not held one hearing on fentanyl. And again, I will repeat this is the leading killer of working and fighting age americans. Whether you are a lab in china, a cartel in mexico, an organization that is sitting by while your company or your platform is being used to facilitate the trafficking of fentanyl and fentanyl related substances, this is happening on purpose.
▶ 2:42:25Sen. Moody: This is intentional. No one can say it is not. Because things can be done, like I don't know, start with a hearing to talk about fentanyl. Ring family members that have lost loved ones, law enforcement that is working on the front lines. Thank you for taking the time to be here. I am glad this is one of my first hearings. I want to thank chairman grassley for doing this because the last four years we should have had a hearing on this and this committee. And we have not. I am the newest member here.
▶ 2:42:57Sen. Moody: I sit at the kids table if you can see. I am not even attached to the real bench. But we are going to talk about and moving forward, I can assure you that. I just spoke with someone who said when she got here, she pledged to be a squealer on budget issues. I will be a squealer on the loss of life because this weakens us as a nation. Weakens us. I know all of you know that. I want to think a great president who has done a lot in the first two weeks in office.
▶ 2:43:24Sen. Moody: In the last four years I said repeatedly as ag we need to declare the cartels as foreign terrorist organizations pick and he got that done. I said we need to do that so we can send military to the border to secure it. He got that done. By the way, when I pointed out as Dr.
▶ 2:43:42Sen. Moody: Farfan said, transnational problems require transnational solutions, when I pointed out the mexican president at the time said fentanyl is not our problem, I am a mexico first president, fentanyl is an american problem, soon there after our commander-in-chief said mexico was a great partner.
▶ 2:44:04Sen. Moody: I am so that we have a president now that within the first two weeks leveraged tariffs that mexico and canada have pledged resources and bodies to help shut those borders and stop the flow of fentanyl. That is how you get stuff done. It can happen if you have people committed to it. Transnational problems do require transnational effort, and I am glad we have a commander-in-chief holding feet to the fire and getting it done.
▶ 2:44:36Sen. Moody: There has been a 350% increase in fentanyl deaths among our teens in the last three years, four years. I want to just say as a mother I could barely hold it together when I was listening to your testimony. I have a teenager right now.
▶ 2:44:56Sen. Moody: I can't imagine the indescribable, overwhelming, traumatic pain you have suffered, but I want to thank you for being here my sharing your stories, most importantly for sharing your children's stories, so we could not only honor daniel and devon, remember them, but bring meaning to what you have gone through so that other parents -- I want to say I and you and other parents right
▶ 2:45:26Sen. Moody: Now of teenagers are not the first generation of parents having to deal with this mess. We are learning as we go. You are on the front lines of this fight, helping us lead the way, shining a light. We've got your back but we need you showing us where to go and I want to thank you for that. I want to start with you.
▶ 2:45:52Sen. Moody: What platform did your sun at -- son obtained alisa -- aletha dose of fennel? >> snapchat. >> what platform did your son find a counterfeit bill that contained a lethal dose of fennel? >> snapchat. >> snapchat has become a fast online drug market.
▶ 2:46:18Sen. Moody: There is no doubt it facilitates drug sales to vulnerable children, many of whom who think they are buying xanax or adderall when in reality it is a pill that has a lethal dose of fentanyl. Seven out of 10 counterfeit pills now have a lethal -- lethal dose of fentanyl. One of these pills can kill four adults. That is what is out there looking for our children.
▶ 2:46:45Sen. Moody: The national crime prevention council estimates poisoning deaths can be traced to social media. I know if we are talking about snapchat that is what brought tragedy upon your lives, but there are others social media platforms where children, vulnerable populations are obtaining access to drugs.
▶ 2:47:06Sen. Moody: Teens can now get drugs so easily the cartels think of these social media platforms as they are uber eats for quick delivery, right into the hands of our children. I agree with you. The bedroom is where we always thought our children could shut your door and there would be safe, and that is no longer the case. Which presents challenges to parents like we have never seen before.
▶ 2:47:36Sen. Moody: The dea has warned congress that cartels are now targeting young americans through platforms feeling defensible epidemic every week the equivalent of a high school classrooms with students dies from fentanyl overdose deaths. This is an incredible statistic. If we saw this with -- this with any other product there would be federal laws shutting down these products. To make them safe before they could go back on market. We saw this time and time again in the automobile industry.
▶ 2:48:09Sen. Moody: We started losing people to faulty automobiles there was a stop sale order. They had to become safe before they could be sold again. White can something similar be applied to socially platforms? Especially with the death toll is so egregious you can look at some of the deaths from some of these automobiles and that was over years. The pinto was 189 deaths. The too half-empty fast toyota was 823 deaths.
▶ 2:48:41Sen. Moody: We lose way more than that just in kids overdosing from fentanyl every single year. We have got to get going, we have got to get stuff done. I would say this. This is what happens when you are the junior senator and you are last.
▶ 2:48:57Sen. Moody: If you could tell us, congress, after we passed the fentanyl act which deals with the changing the chemical compound to get around the laws, right, after that what is the most we can do to stop the death toll here in the united states? >> how would say passing the kids online safety act, the cooper davis and devon annoying act, the social media reform really needs to take the front line.
▶ 2:49:26Sen. Moody: Section 230 reform needs to be done because you cannot continue having these platforms have that kind of power. And be allowed to kill our children, in a sense.
▶ 2:49:40Mr. Puerta: There is a lot we can do. Deftly have to schedule the fentanyl. Elicit fentanyl as a schedule one drug. I would also say we have to target the supply chain. We have to strengthen border security. We have to crackdown on the chemical supply. We have to destroy the cartel infrastructure. We have to increase intelligence sharing between both countries, support mosquitoes's security forces, expand designations.
▶ 2:50:10Mr. Puerta: We have to cut off their finances. Td bank was caught laundering all of this money from the cartels. Why is nothing happening to the american banks in this country laundering the money? There is so much we can do. I as a parent should not have this information. [laughter] I'm just a small business owner from santa clarita, california. Why do I have this information? Because I had to study this because I don't want more kids today. Have to go after the launderers.
▶ 2:50:40Mr. Puerta: We have to target corrupt officials on both sides of the aisle. In mexico and the united states. We have to also reduce the demand for drugs in the united states. There are a lot of people addicted to drugs here and we have nothing for them. Nothing. We have medical they gives them 30 days of -- 30 days and then they are on their own.
▶ 2:51:07Mr. Puerta: We have to hold mexico accountable, pressured the mexico government to do more, obviously. We have to leverage trade and diplomatic tools. Military intervention is a last resort. Mr. trump, donald trump, our president just designated them as ftos, as a federal to -- as a foreign terrorist organization. I think that is needed, but we have the same problem here in the united states as well.
▶ 2:51:33Mr. Puerta: I think that it has to be bilateral, it has to be bipartisan, and it was a lot that needs to be done. If not, and more kids are going to die. But definitely the first and most important aspect of this is getting this scheduled as a schedule one. We have to do it, because if not more kids are going to continue dying.
▶ 2:52:00Sen. Moody: Thank you for being here. Thank you for advising us. Devon and daniel certainly will be remembered in this committee, and you have made sure of that. Thank you so much. At this time I get the honor of recognizing senator tillis.
▶ 2:52:15Sen. Tillis: What a rise. You are already chair.
▶ 2:52:19Sen. Moody: So they tell me.
▶ 2:52:26Sen. Tillis: I think we would -- I think what we just heard is the road. I have spoken with too many families suffering through what you have suffered through. We have to change things. Ms. farfan, I was here for the opening testimony, and you wanted to focus on the southern migration of weapons. I believe that is a serious concern, but you said something that concerned me.
▶ 2:52:56Sen. Tillis: It had to do with the will of the mexican government. First I should say I do believe we have to hold the social media platforms accountable. But make no mistake about it, these thugs that run the cartels will find another way to get this poison here if we don't do things that reduce the demand and if we don't disrupt the supply. It will just be a different way for the snakes to get this poison into our country.
▶ 2:53:20Sen. Tillis: We need to be smart and not high-five if we do something that gets it off of social media platforms. These disgusting murderers and poisoners will find a way. We have to look at this like a multivariable equation and come up with some solutions. I wanted your perspective on this. I feel like the cartels in mexico are reaching an almost co-equal branch of government in mexico.
▶ 2:53:51Sen. Tillis: I can't reconcile your opening statement with the reality that today the plazas on the more -- on the northern border of mexico are run by the hotels. -- the cartels. The people crossing the border pay a fee. They are making more money off of human trafficking than they are drugs. The senna lower cartel, and drop fentanyl and go back home. The mexican government does not have control over the situation.
▶ 2:54:20Sen. Tillis: There are precursors coming into mexican ports, and they are being transferred to cartels who are manufacturing methamphetamine and fentanyl at scale and finding ways to get it into this country. In many cases with american citizens being the mules coming across the border. I get that. Certainly more american citizens responsible for the distribution to these children and adults of all ages who are dying.
▶ 2:54:49Sen. Tillis: So, it is interesting to me that president trump was criticized for putting a potential tariff on mexico. Everybody said it was going to be horrible. The only thing it did over the course of a few days is prompt the now-current president of mexico to deploy 10,000 troops to the border. If there is no problem, if there is no problem to the difficulties we have at the border why would they do that?
▶ 2:55:17Sen. Tillis: Because they are just afraid of a tariff or are they recognizing your shedding light on a situation at the southern border that they have simply not made a priority? Why would they do that?
▶ 2:55:33Ms. Farfan: I cannot speak on behalf of the mexican government.
▶ 2:55:35Sen. Tillis: You are a smart person. I absolutely reject out of hand that this is -- we have to deal with the illicit trade and guns going across the border. I agree with that. In fact, I got in trouble with some second amendment advocacy groups because I agree we have to fix that problem.
▶ 2:55:57Sen. Tillis: Maybe just for the record you could suggest to me why you think mexico has done everything they have to play their part in preventing this poison from being manufactured? China in plain sight is sending pre-first -- sending precursors. Whoever is running the ports and allowing supply chains to occur or allowing it to occur at scale. Over 100,000 people are dying every year in this country. Many of them as a result of fentanyl or opioids.
▶ 2:56:25Sen. Tillis: More people die in north carolina as a result of the overdoses for fentanyl or opioids then people die on our highways. Most of this, most reasonable people, unless further purposes of q first, you can send the evidence that mexico needs to wake up and be a partner and friend to our south and address this as the problem it is, and it is happening in plain sight among the mexican authorities, and among the cartels who have
▶ 2:56:58Sen. Tillis: Organized plazas at the northern border, and they are running it. There is no way that mexico sends 10,000 troops to their -- to their northern border if they don't think they've got a problem that president trump has illuminated. Thank you all for being here today, but please understand that some of the things you have asked for are all just steps in the right direction. This is far more complicated than any one thing we can do and I look forward to continuing and engaging with you. Thank you. >> senator graham.
▶ 2:57:26Sen. Graham: Sherif barnes, you have been involved in this space for quite a while, right? How would you describe the role of china in the fentanyl problem america faces?
▶ 2:57:37Mr. Barnes: China is the first domino in contributing to the crisis. They are the contributor of the vast majority of the precursor chemicals, and if we deal with that that would be the great first step.
▶ 2:57:53Sen. Graham: When they say they're not they are lying, right? I would say they are lying. There is a 10% tariff on childhood one of the things president trump would like to accomplish is to protect our country from fentanyl poisoning. Sheriff barnes, would you say the dea echoes without china this could not happen? China is an essential ingredient in the poisoning of america by fentanyl?
▶ 2:58:24Sen. Graham: To the chinese communist party? You either change or there will be consequences coming from the trump administration and the congress? We are not going to sit by any longer and watch you in rich yourselves -- different companies in china -- at the expense of america. So, be on notice.
▶ 2:58:50Sen. Graham: You either change your practices regarding supporting drug cartels in mexico, china, or you will pay a heavy price. And that is not too much to ask. Do you agree, sheriff barnes?
▶ 2:59:02Mr. Barnes: I do, senator.
▶ 2:59:04Sen. Graham: Dr. -- how do you say your last name?
▶ 2:59:09Ms. Farfan: Farfan.
▶ 2:59:13Ms. Farfan: You think the drug cartels should be a foreign terrorist organizations?
▶ 2:59:18Ms. Farfan: I'm going to comment on the impact this could have on U.S.-mexico security #Sen.
▶ 2:59:23Graham: I didn't ask that. I asked, do you think they are worthy of the designation? I think they have earned it a thousand times over.
▶ 2:59:40Graham: And to our friends in mexico, we want to work with you but we are not going to sit on the sidelines any longer and watch drug labs right below the southern border manufacture fentanyl and other drugs to kill americans. We want to work with you. Sheriff barnes, do you believe that in many ways mexico has lost sovereignty over this issue?
▶ 3:00:04Mr. Barnes: I believe the mexican laws have failed domestically, and I believe that that has had downrange effects on U.S. lives.
▶ 3:00:15Sen. Graham: To our friends in mexico, we appreciate you sending the soldiers, but that is just a first step. We need to put the drug cartels on notice, you cannot thrive and survive the way you are doing today. Why are they in the drug business? Because the return on investment is large and the risk is small. They will get out of this business when some of them get killed or go to jail. Do you agree with that, sheriff barnes?
▶ 3:00:41Mr. Barnes: I do agree that. I think it is a complex issue but one component is the manufacturers. It is a lack of accountability. Until we address the issues on both sides, the addiction issue, and the supply issue --
▶ 3:00:57Sen. Graham: I'm talking about the drug cartels. It seems to be a good business.
▶ 3:01:01Mr. Barnes: They operate in scale.
▶ 3:01:04Sen. Graham: I cannot say it any better. And they are making money at the expense of us. Two families -- how do you say your last name, sir? Puerta. Cannot roll the r's, that is ok.
▶ 3:01:26Sen. Graham: I have problems speaking at times, but I don't have any problem understanding what you are telling me. Both of you are telling me that your loved ones paid the ultimate price because of failed policies. You both agree with that?
▶ 3:01:42Mr. Puerta: Yes, senator.
▶ 3:01:44Ms. Norring: Yes. Yes.
▶ 3:01:48Sen. Graham: We need to repeal section 230. You need to be able to sue. Snapchat should be sued. All of these companies should be sued because they are fostering an environment that is killing people. They are a dangerous product. It is the only companies I know of in america that there is no government agency really regulating their behavior and you can't sue them and there are really no laws on the books that control their behavior.
▶ 3:02:17Sen. Graham: If you feel hopeless out there as a parent and helpless, there is a reason you feel that way, because there is not a thing you can do about it. That needs to change. I wish you well in your lawsuits and I will and to my last breath here try to repeal section 230. Thank you all very much. >> thank you, senator graham. Senior to me, senator graham. You, a lot can be done besides just allowing people to sue.
▶ 3:02:49Sen. Graham: We as the federal government can enact laws to stop this from happening in our country. It is abhorrent that more has not been done to stop this. And I wanted to touch on a few things I was confused by and hope we can get some enlightenment on that. I'm the wife of our -- of a law-enforcement officer. I was a federal prosecutor myself, going after transnational consumer -- organizations and drug traffickers.
▶ 3:03:16Sen. Graham: And it was not uncommon that those wishing to push poison into our united states were not U.S. citizens. In fact, many actions taken against her members or otherwise were against foreign nationals.
▶ 3:03:33Sen. Graham: In fact, it was confusing to me that I heard a question about dea dissipating in bama trying to help and assist with removing those who are illegally committing crimes, especially those committing drug trafficking crimes while we are in the middle of a drug crisis, why that would be confusing or even suggested that might be a waste of resource when in my experience and certainly in my husband's experience many of his cases, especially involving drug
▶ 3:04:04Sen. Graham: Trafficking, dealt with foreign nationals. It is not surprising to me that they would enlist the drug enforcement administration to assist. I would like to ask sheriff barnes, could you speak to the claim that most prosecutions for fentanyl trafficking is being done against citizens?
▶ 3:04:24Mr. Barnes: Yes. I think the data, first you have to look at this in the population we are dealing with. You have the trafficking component, which is the large-scale bringing a cause -- bringing across the border narcotics. Then you have the distribution and sales part of that. That includes americans on both sides. But those american citizens participating have a direct nexus on behalf of the cartels. They have been compensated by the cartels for their actions and trafficking.
▶ 3:04:56Mr. Barnes: They are not operating independent of that.
▶ 3:05:01Sen. Moody: : once you have the upper echelons of cartels start pushing distribution to the united states and others in the united states that takes multiple people, correct? Thousands, in fact.
▶ 3:05:15Mr. Barnes: Yes. It is a very organized marketing distribution network, but the profits, proceeds, and actors are all tied to the cartels. The drugs coming across her regardless of citizenry. The distribution is at that that has to cartels -- the behest of cartels and laundered domestically to hide that, or are transited back across the border to the prophet of the cartels.
▶ 3:05:42Sen. Moody: Recognizing the extent of the damage inflicted on our nation and our vulnerable populations from this crisis, and recognizing that so little has been done in the last four years, does it surprise you that across eight -- a cross-agency effort to reel back some of the damage is being put into place?
▶ 3:06:04Mr. Barnes: No, I do not think that is surprising. It is necessary to collaborate across not just different agencies, but different layers of government. I think it is also necessary to synergize efforts in a coordinated fashion. Also we are playing waccamaw with the cartels. It is doing 12 things simultaneously in a coordinated fashion that is going to hinder the cartels and start making a difference.
▶ 3:06:28Sen. Moody: In your opinion, the cooperation and partnership of state and local law enforcement is necessary to start having an effect to reel back in some of what has happened over the last four years?
▶ 3:06:43Mr. Barnes: I think even before four years ago and now it is necessary to collaborate and develop partnerships. In a vertical fashion with our state and locals and horizontally across those same planes, federal agency to federal agency, state to state, local to local, and have a more intentional conversation, and quite honestly a collaborative, coordinated effort to be on the offense rather than playing the defense. Have been on the defense too long and responding to cartels.
▶ 3:07:14Mr. Barnes: They are going to pivot around us. They need to be ahead of our next move.
▶ 3:07:20Sen. Moody: A devastating crisis certainly requires strong actions to solve it. When we first started using the term just say no -- I say we, although I was very young at the time. I don't know about y'all. When nancy reagan first said just say no, we were in a crisis of overdose deaths in our nation.
▶ 3:07:47Sen. Moody: We lost a little over 3000 nationwide year. We now lose 110,000 americans every year. And I think it is important when we use the word crisis over and over so we don't become immune to that and we record highs the magnitude of what we are dealing with. That we remember what we used to frame as a crisis is now a national travesty.
▶ 3:08:14Sen. Moody: And if anyone says that this has not need cap to strength of our nation they do not know what they are talking about. And so I want to think again chairman grassley for calling this hearing. Again, just to put it in perspective we are in the 119th congress. This is our first non-nomination hearing in this committee, and it was on fentanyl. The number one killer of working and fighting age americans. You were a part of this.
▶ 3:08:46Sen. Moody: This is a big deal moving forward, and hopefully the energy that not just our witnesses today brought the energy of everyone in this room, especially those that stood up and have felt this for so long and directed that passion, and that emotion towards change in progress, the 119th congress hears you, we see you, and I'm going to be a squealer to make sure they take action and move forward. We appreciate you being here today. We appreciate all of the witnesses for being here today.
▶ 3:09:17Sen. Moody: I used to be a judge before I went into this crazy, chaotic world of politics. I'm feeling back at home. The meeting is adjourned. Thank you so much.