▶ 0:17:46Chair Capito: This hearing to order and thank everyone for coming this morning. We receive testimony from david fotouhi the nominee to the environmental protection agency deputy administrator and from aaron szabo to serve as the epa assistant administrator for air and radiation. These are two very important positions in the agency, so I'm looking forward to this productive conversation about how Mr. fotouhi and Mr.
▶ 0:18:15Chair Capito: Szabo will ensure president trump's agenda to get the agency back to its core mission and establish american energy dominance. Mr. fotouhi is a partner where he is representing clients on matters relating to environmental law. He previously served as the acting general counsel, acting deputy counsel, at the epa. No stranger to the epa.
▶ 0:18:39Chair Capito: He has been recognized by multiple national law publications for his work in environmental and energy law and is a leader on those issues. Mr. fotouhi's previous experience at the epa provides a wealth of perspective on the critical role of protecting our nation's air, land, and water in the boundaries of the legal authority congress established. The epa deputy administrator is tasked with overseeing the day-to-day operations of the agency. In this role, Mr.
▶ 0:19:09Chair Capito: Fotouhi will coordinate work of the epa's air, water, chemicals office in addition to the epa regional offices. Research, enforcement, and general counsel teams. Effectively integrating the agency's work will be at the top of Mr. fotouhi's list of responsibilities.
▶ 0:19:29Chair Capito: Facilitating economic growth while protecting public health and the environment requires the agency to establish consistent legally defensible regulations, fairly and clearly enforce those rules, and communicate with states, communities, and entities impacted by these regulations. Mr.
▶ 0:19:48Chair Capito: Szabo, president trumps nominee to serve as the assistant administrator for the office of air and radiation, is currently the senior advisor to the epa administrator after representing a wide variety of clients in the private sector on energy and environmental matters. For more than 10 years, Mr.
▶ 0:20:05Chair Capito: Szabo worked as a career civil servant, first for the nuclear regulatory commission and then the office of information and regulatory affairs, and the department of environmental quality. He was recognized for awards for his excellent performance in the office of nuclear reactor regulation.
▶ 0:20:30Chair Capito: In june of 2016 during his tenure working for the obama administration he received the special achievement award. His nomination will place him in a central role to roll back the attack. Under the by then epa american energy producers were subject to a barrage of legally suspect regulations that were intended to bankrupt oil, gas, coal companies.
▶ 0:21:00Chair Capito: These attacks lead to increased energy costs on american families, reduced electric reliability, and undermine our energy security. In contrast, president trump's agenda will write size regulations within the bounds of the laws passed by this congress and passed congresses -- past congresses and unleash economic growth while protecting the environment.
▶ 0:21:28Chair Capito: As the administrator stated during his confirmation hearing, the epa has far too often exceeded the legal authority congress provided in law. This pattern repeated during the obama and by then administrations, forced american businesses to pay for costly compliance requirements even though the underlying regulation was ultimately struck down by the courts.
▶ 0:21:52Chair Capito: Today's nominee understands the impact of the obama-biden regulatory strategy. They represent a wide range of energy and environmental clients and legal and regulatory proceedings as well as counsel clients on environmental compliance and due diligence.
▶ 0:22:14Chair Capito: While some may suggest that representing regulated entities, particularly ones they don't like or agree with in private practice should bar attorneys like Mr. fotouhi and Mr. szabo from serving in these roles, but I think that misses the value of both of these nominees' public and private experiences.
▶ 0:22:36Chair Capito: It's important for all the epa staff, especially senior leadership, to understand how the agency's use of statutory authority and enforcement tools affect states and regulated entities as well as how that regulatory action can best achieve compliance and maximize positive environmental outcomes. I am confident our witnesses' legal training, government experience, and professional experience will serve them well in the positions for which they have been nominated.
▶ 0:23:06Chair Capito: The epa must get back to what it does best, facilitating the cleanup of polluted sites in communities across america, establishing scientific, sound, achievable regulations, and fulfilling the cooperative federalism model working states to meet national environmental standards. I look over to exploring these issues in more detail with our witnesses and I know recognize ranking member white house for his opening statement.
▶ 0:23:30Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you, chairman. Today is day 45 of the second trump administration. In his first month and a half we have seen attacks on the rule of law, willful disregard for the constitution, a funding freeze threatening to kill jobs and drive up energy costs for families, and, to use project 2025's own words, trauma inflicted on dedicated career staff at various agencies.
▶ 0:24:00Sen. Whitehouse: We on this day is have oversight responsibility for the environmental protection agency, but despite my asking many times, I'm still trying to figure out what is happening behind the walls of 1200 pennsylvania avenue. I have sent reasonable requests to the epa for information and have been met with near total radio silence.
▶ 0:24:20Sen. Whitehouse: On january 31 along with all of the democrats on this day as to the administrator to have him explain his basis for the epa funding freeze that continues to threaten american jobs and jeopardize projects from west virginia to my home state of rhode island. Most of this funding was passed on a bipartisan basis for systems that are the backbone of our nation's economy.
▶ 0:24:52Sen. Whitehouse: On the very sixth I wrote again to the administrator and his counterpart at opm calling out the administration's so-called deferred resignation scam against hard-working civil servants, again asking how the administration could legally promise such a thing without congressional appropriations, promising money that isn't there is called deficiency.
▶ 0:25:12Sen. Whitehouse: On february 24 eyelid all of the epw democrats demanding efforts about the effort to clawback congressionally approved clean energy funding for projects nationwide. The administrator has been gas lighting the american people and manipulating facts to terminate an already obligated congressional authorized program that would lower household energy costs, spur economic development, and reduce pollution.
▶ 0:25:39Sen. Whitehouse: On february 28th, all of the epw democrats wrote to administrator zeldin. The endangerment finding, based on science that greenhouse gases are harmful to human health. Last night, you would never hear any recognition of what fossil fuel emissions are doing to our atmosphere or oceans.
▶ 0:26:07Sen. Whitehouse: Those facts alluded the conversation and we never heard any recognition that 90% of new power coming onto the grid in america is solar and wind and battery. The energy executive order doesn't even define solar and wind as energy, which would be news to energy recipients in texas and wyoming and iowa.
▶ 0:26:33Sen. Whitehouse: The greenhouse gases harm public health was scientific fact when the endangerment finding was issued in 2009. 16 years later the evidence has only gotten stronger and the looming economic harms more dangerous. One obvious way that climate change is harming americans across the country is through spiraling insurance premiums and a looming collapse in property insurance markets. Another is through spiking grocery prices.
▶ 0:26:58Sen. Whitehouse: The only people who benefit from repealing the endangerment finding are the planet's biggest and most careless polluters. In reply to these four letters we received one response that didn't come close to answering questions. My staff have twice requested a briefing on the funding freeze and those have been aggressively met with radio silence.
▶ 0:27:17Sen. Whitehouse: I suspect that is because administrator zeldin knows that he has no legal basis for the funding freezes, clawbacks, or manipulation of science, and yet, because I and my fellow democrats respect the constitution and rule of law, here we are today to consider two additional nominees to the epa. I hope that they will be more forthcoming, transparent, and honest in their answers then was administrator zeldin at his confirmation hearing.
▶ 0:27:44Sen. Whitehouse: David fotouhi, nominated to serve as deputy administrator has held two jobs since graduating law school, one is defending a raft of big polluting interests including chevron and sunoco. Second, epa's counsel during the first trump administration working to repeal environmental regulations meant to protect human health and the environment. It remains difficult for me to understand how someone who has made a career defending the industries that destroy our environment has any business being entrusted to protect it.
▶ 0:28:15Sen. Whitehouse: Aaron szabo has been nominated to serve as the assistant administrator for the office of air and radiation and is contributed by name to project 2025. The extremist billionaire-funded right-wing blueprint for dismantling the federal government that trump is now dutifully implement and.
▶ 0:28:35Sen. Whitehouse: Some environmental highlights from project 2025 is to weaken the clean air act by reversing the endangerment finding, purge the agency and bring trauma to its employees, and in case you are not keeping score at home, administrator zeldin is hard at work on these. Mr.
▶ 0:28:51Sen. Whitehouse: Szabo is an advisor to the america first policy institute, the trump-aligned billionaire-funded think tank funded by big oil interests and he worked as a lobbyist where he pushed the interests of major polluters like the american petroleum institute's members. Is this what we want for the epa? Is this how we want to protect clean air and water?
▶ 0:29:12Sen. Whitehouse: As I said in the consideration for administrator zeldin, I will be watching to see if they can differentiate themselves in any substantive way from the polluter agenda. Forgive me, in light of their client list and lawlessness that has already occurred 45 days into the second trump administration, if I seem skeptical.
▶ 0:29:38Chair Capito: We are very pleased to have one of our fellow senators to introduce one of the nominees. Thank you, senator mullin, for joining us. We miss you on this committee.
▶ 0:29:55Sen. Mullin: It is with a heavy heart I no longer sit on the dais with you guys. It's a privilege of mind today, chairman capito, ranking member whitehouse to introduce a fellow oklahoman. David fotouhi is president trump's nominee to be the deputy administrator for the U.S. environmental protection agency.
▶ 0:30:22Sen. Mullin: David was born in venezuela and immigrated to oklahoma when he was four years old with his parents who are here today. A funny side note, they dearly love each other but I guess that she does not trust him driving so she flew and he drove from oklahoma today. I think that my wife may do that one day. After david graduated from high school in oklahoma city, he attended vanderbilt university, graduating with the highest honors and achieving a law degree from harvard. An impressive guy if you ask me.
▶ 0:30:53Sen. Mullin: And trump's first administration david served at the epa in several senior roles including the printable deputy general counsel and acting general counsel where he led the office of nearly 250 lawyers and staff. David's primary focus during that time included the epa program under the clean water act, clean drinking water act, clean air act, resource conservation recovery act.
▶ 0:31:17Sen. Mullin: In addition with working closely with leaders and multiple agencies like the department of justice, throughout his service at the epa, david prioritized stability, regulation that duly benefited both our environment and the economy, and did so with the highest personal standards of integrity.
▶ 0:31:35Sen. Mullin: Prior to epa, david worked as a partner in an international law firm practicing environmental law where he developed a wide breadth of litigation regulating experience helping clients understanding their legal obligation to reach compliance standards with state and environmental law which led to publications publicly recognizing him for his work.
▶ 0:32:02Sen. Mullin: There is no doubt that he has a talent, experience, and professionalism temperament to work with employees at the epa and steak owners of all kinds as the epa's deputy administrator. I'm proud to introduce a fellow oklahoman this morning, nominated to such a position in the federal government.
▶ 0:32:25Sen. Mullin: I'm confident david will serve the epa deputy administrator with a high personal and professional standard that he is known for throughout his entire career. On a side note, I will say, ma'am, I am deeply saddened that I don't sit on this committee because I would take a great honor today to be able to sit up there seeing david here answering questions and putting the epa back on track of not just serving one side of the
▶ 0:32:56Sen. Mullin: Constituent base, but the entire country, making sure the economy and environment can both thrive. I yelled back.
▶ 0:33:02Chair Capito: I will now turn to senator husted to give his introductory remarks.
▶ 0:33:15Sen. Husted: Thank you, chairman capito. I appreciate the chance to introduce aaron szabo this morning. It is my honor to do so. He is president trump's nominee to be the assistant administrator for air and radiation at the environmental protection agency.
▶ 0:33:42Sen. Husted: Joining him today is his wife pamela and his parents, john and teddy. Welcome, I'm sure you're very proud. I have no doubt that aaron's background will be impressive to the members of this committee, and he will do a great job in this important position.
▶ 0:34:03Sen. Husted: As someone who worked 25 years in state government, I know very well what federal regulations can do to a state's economy. I've seen the epa delay, provide conflicting advice, provide poor customer service at times, and negatively impact ohio businesses and economy. We know that time is money.
▶ 0:34:34Sen. Husted: I also know that we must be important -- that it is important that our state and federal regulators are good stewards of our natural resources. We have seen in an industrial state of ohio about how to strike that balance and we know how to do it right. States are in the best position to be able to do that, because they know what's best for their communities. They know what's best for their environment.
▶ 0:35:04Sen. Husted: They know what's best for business and the people of the state that they represent. We know protecting the environment and growing our economy are not mutually exclusive, and I know -- I believe that my colleagues on this committee understand that the people of their state know what's best and can be great collaborators.
▶ 0:35:30Sen. Husted: In fact, we must, as we consider aaron szabo's nomination to serve at the epa today. I want to note that lee zeldin traveled to east palestine ohio days after he was confirmed to lead that agency, along with vice president vance and senator moreno and I who were there as well.
▶ 0:35:52Sen. Husted: Administrator zeldin made it his first trip in his new role to meet ohioans on the two-year anniversary of the devastating train derailment in east palestine. I spent time on the ground with ohans and was on the ground for many days after the event and I saw the effects firsthand.
▶ 0:36:11Sen. Husted: I can tell you that it matters that this administration remembers us, the people in east palestine, and is working to keep our air clean and economy thriving as we recover -- the people, particularly in that community as I witnessed it, recover from those unthinkable hardships.
▶ 0:36:34Sen. Husted: I am pleased to see the trump epa focused on working with states and not against them in our joint efforts to protect the environment. That is why I look forward to working with aaron to advance our shared mission in ohio and see that the epa works similarly with every state. That partnership working with the states is so very important because they get it, they know what needs to be done. Let me share more about why aaron is here with us today and why he belongs at the epa.
▶ 0:37:04Sen. Husted: Aaron understands how to promote the healthy environment and successful communities firsthand. He followed in his parents' footsteps as a career civil servant. He began his own career as a public servant at the nuclear regulatory commission while he was in law school. Aaron continue to serve in other career positions at the council on environmental quality and the office of information and regulatory affairs.
▶ 0:37:30Sen. Husted: He worked on issues related to the important statutes such as the clean air act, national environment a policy act, and regulations surrounding power plants. That experience will serve him well as an epa assistant administrator. After more than a decade in public service, aaron helped businesses navigate environmental issues as a regulatory affairs attorney.
▶ 0:37:56Sen. Husted: He is highly qualified to fill this role and is motivated by surveys. Aaron understands how to keep americans safe and healthy while empowering the great american comeback. I believe he will lead the epa office of air and radiation with expertise and integrity. And believe me, that is what we all want of the person in charge of air quality. He understands these issues well.
▶ 0:38:24Sen. Husted: The office of air and radiation develops policies and oversees the implementation of core environmental statutes, like the clean air act. Aaron will leverage his extensive experience to navigate complex issues for the american people. I have confidence in his ability and am glad he's here today and willing to take on this responsibility as continued work in public service.
▶ 0:38:52Sen. Husted: Congratulations, aaron, and your wife pamela on your nomination, and thank you for the opportunity to introduce you today. Madam chairwoman, thank you. Ranking member, thank you for the opportunity to share the reasons why we should support the nomination of aaron szabo.
▶ 0:39:10Chair Capito: Thank you very much. I will ask the witnesses to move up to the witness table, but don't sit down. Before we moved opening statements for our nominees I will administer the oath to receive their sworn testimony. If you will raise your right hand, stand, raise your right hand and answer the following question.
▶ 0:39:34Chair Capito: Use where the following testimony were about to give to this committee, the whole truth, so help you god? Let the record show that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative. We will proceed to our opening statements, thank you both and thank you to the families were joining in as well. Mr. fotouhi, you will be recognized first for five minutes for your opening statement.
▶ 0:40:02Chair Capito: >> good morning, chairman capito, ranking member whitehouse, wrecking whitehouse, wre -- whitehouse, members of the committee. I want to thank president trump for the confidence that he has placed in me and administrator zeldin for support of my nomination.
▶ 0:40:25Chair Capito: If confirmed I pledge to work every day for the american people to advance the mission of epa to protect human health and the environment and to support administrator zeldin as he does the same. I want to thank my family, current and former colleagues and close friends for being here to support me, many of whom have traveled great distances. In particular, I want to thank my parents who are both here today for their sacrifices and un-abating support. Epa's mission is deeply personal to me.
▶ 0:40:55Chair Capito: I'm an immigrant to this country. I was born in venezuela and came to the united states as a child with my parents with the hope of a better future. As a naturalized citizen, I have a unique view of our nation's heritage for conservation and strong environmental protections that are not shared by many other countries. The american legacy of stewardship towards our air, water, and land was not my birthright.
▶ 0:41:19Chair Capito: It was not something that I was predestined to enjoy, but thankfully I do get to enjoy it, along with every other american, and we need to look no further than to places like venezuela to understand how differently things can go. From my perspective, I see environmental conservation woven into every fiber of this country at the core of what makes this nation great and prosperous. The epa's human health mission specifically resonates with me in a deeply personal way.
▶ 0:41:48Chair Capito: Like millions of other americans, I am a cancer survivor. The epa plays a critical role in protecting the health of all americans, including by reducing cancer risk through programs addressing air and water quality, along with hazardous-waste and chemical substances across the agency and directly in communities facing the greatest challenges. Professionally, I have devoted my life to environmental law and environmental issues.
▶ 0:42:14Chair Capito: I practiced environmental law for 14 years including my prior service at the epa. In private practice I represented a broad array of clients and spent much of my career helping them understand and achieve compliance with their environmental legal obligations and responsibilities. As mentioned, I served for nearly four years at the epa, culminating in my time as the agency's acting general counsel.
▶ 0:42:40Chair Capito: It was a privilege to work alongside the career lawyers and other professionals at epa, where I found some of the most knowledgeable and dedicated public servants. If confirmed, I will work every day to earn their trust and respect, as I did during my prior tenure at the agency. That tenure also reaffirmed my belief in the importance of the rule of law.
▶ 0:43:02Chair Capito: Indeed, it is critical that epa upholds the rule of law by carrying out its mission based on the enumerated authorities given to it by congress. Epa must also provide necessary clarity and certainty so that every american, obligated by an environmental requirement, knows exactly what is expected of them. If confirmed, I will work every day to earn and keep the public's trust in epa and its actions.
▶ 0:43:30Chair Capito: America has made dramatic environment of progress in my lifetime. More americans now have access to clean drinking water than ever before. Sulfur dioxide air emissions in 2020 three were 94% lower than they were in 1980. Nox emissions were 75% lower. America accomplished this while growing our population and our gdp. Setting an example for the rest of the world. We have much to be proud of but there's more work to be done.
▶ 0:44:00Chair Capito: In 2023, our major cities experienced more days of unhealthy air quality than in any year of president trump's first term. More than 1300 contaminated sites across the country remain on the national priorities list not yet ready to be fully returned to their communities for reuse.
▶ 0:44:19Chair Capito: Drinking water supplies in some communities face challenges from lead and emerging contaminants like pfas, and our climate demands work at home like plummeting the aim act and expediting carbon sequestration permitting and work abroad to include a level global playing field that doesn't disadvantage hard-working americans.
▶ 0:44:42Chair Capito: The epa must work with states, tribes, and local partners and the regulating community and ngos to confront these and other issues. Consistently with the law and while preserving our global economic dominance.
▶ 0:44:55Chair Capito: I am confident that epa, under administrator zeldin's leadership, can make progress through smart, transparent, cost-effective regulatory solutions rooted in science through compliance efforts that achieve real pollution reduction and enforcement efforts for
▶ 0:45:25Chair Capito: Violators who refuse to follow the law, and importantly through unleashing american innovation and our economic growth engine to find tomorrow's solutions for today's challenges. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and I look forward to learn more about your priorities and answering your questions.
▶ 0:45:32Chair Capito: Now, Mr. szabo is recognized for five minutes for your opening statement. Thank you, chairman capito, ranking member whitehouse, members of this committee. Thank you to president trump for nominating me for the office of air and in radiation at the environmental protection agency to help protect america' is air.
▶ 0:45:59Chair Capito: I want to thank administrator zeldin for his trust in my current role and in this nomination. I would like to thank my wife pamela, my parents, in-laws, and friends and colleagues here supporting me today in person and virtually. I wouldn't be here today without them. I sit before you today is the nominee for assistant administrator of the office of air and radiation who suffers from a chronic lung disease. I was diagnosed with cystic fibrosis at six-month-old.
▶ 0:46:31Chair Capito: Throughout my life I have taken hundreds of thousands of pills, spent countless hours using nebulizers, and been hospitalized multiple times. While it hasn't always been easy, unlike many others with cystic fibrosis I am blessed to be alive today. Because of my lung disease I've always been acutely aware of air quality. Growing up, I could feel the impact of poor air quality on my lungs.
▶ 0:46:57Chair Capito: After college, I followed and my parents' footsteps as federal employees and became a career employee at the U.S. nuclear regulatory commission. At the nrc I had the privilege to work with and learn from exceptional, hard-working career staff are 6.5 years. In 2014, I joined the white house and served in the office of information and regulatory affairs.
▶ 0:47:22Chair Capito: At oira I had the opportunity to work with career staff and republican and democratic officials. I saw firsthand the process of translating public -- policy into outcomes consistent with laws and facts.
▶ 0:47:40Chair Capito: During the obama administration I worked as hard as I could to complete the clean power plan, the 2015 ozone national ambient air quality standards, and not -- and the natural gas methane. I considered with that same -- revising the oil and natural gas methane regulations and implementing president trump's two-for-one executive order.
▶ 0:48:05Chair Capito: After over 10 years of federal service, I transition to the private sector, where I learned how regulated entities comply with the federal government's thousands of regulations and policies. I saw firsthand that the people working in these companies want to ensure the environment is properly protected. I rejoined the federal government on inauguration day for the first time as a political appointee. Currently, I serve as the senior advisor for the administrator of epa.
▶ 0:48:34Chair Capito: If I've the honor of being confirmed to be the head of the office of air and radiation, I commit to you and to the american people that all of this experience will guide me in this role. I will give my utmost every day working with a talented career staff and responsible stakeholders to revive the best and most durable air quality solutions for the nation. Since the enactment of the clean air act, the united states has made remarkable progress in reducing air pollution.
▶ 0:49:03Chair Capito: We have seen significant decreases in carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, lead, ground-level ozone, particulate matter, and other hazardous air pollutants come all the while our economy has continued to grow. I believe that all of those who work to improve air quality for the past 50 years, whether it be within or outside the government, deserve appreciation for their successes.
▶ 0:49:27Chair Capito: Congress structured the clean air act around the principle of cooperative federalism and controlling air pollution at its source is the primary responsibility of states and local government. Epa must always work hand in glove with its estate partners to ensure that air quality standards are obtained and maintained. The best environmental results are reached in a collaborative way. This was a wise decision by congress in establishing the clean air act and remains the best approach today.
▶ 0:49:58Chair Capito: One subject area that was not on congress's radar when it enacted the clean air act in 1970 was climate change. I believe the climate is changing. The epa must always carefully analyze all manners before it to make sure that they are squarely grounded in statutory authority, sound policy, and are based on a robust evidentiary record. Finally, if confirmed, I will work to ensure that we are mitigating traditional air pollution.
▶ 0:50:27Chair Capito: As someone with a lung disease, I find it deeply concerning that there are around 140 million people who currently live in non-attainment areas, many of which have been living in those areas for decades. We should prioritize helping these areas achieve compliance and improve air quality. Chairman capito, ranking member whitehouse, members of this committee, thank you again for your time and consideration. I look forward to answering your questions and discussing the issues that matter to constituents.
▶ 0:50:55Chair Capito: Thank you both. I will start with the questions. First, I would like to make a comment that you both have very compelling personal stories, particularly as it regards to your own personal health. I think that is one of the main missions of epa, to help folks who have been afflicted much like you, but also for future generations. Thank you for being so open about those issues. I want to ask my first question on cooperative federalism.
▶ 0:51:23Chair Capito: We talked a little bit, couple of us have already mentioned it, but the environment allows are based on the principle of which states are co-regulatory partners with the federal government. Rather than considering them as partners, the previous administration sort of overlooked and treated states as subordinates. State and local environment of agencies are dedicated to working together with federal regulators and a lot of the times they certainly understand their own personal regions a lot better.
▶ 0:51:53Chair Capito: State agencies are best suited to understand the diversity in their geographic, economic, social elements. Mr. fotouhi, will you commit to engaging with states under the cooperative federalism framework to establish workable rules and implementation strategies, for both of you, to protect public health and the environment?
▶ 0:52:11Mr. Fotouhi: Thank you, senator. Yes, absolutely. The environmental statute broadly speaking is drafted in a way that the federal government, states, tribes, and others work in partnership to achieve results that congress intended when the statutes were promulgated.
▶ 0:52:27Mr. Fotouhi: Doing so in a way that empowers states through cooperative realism, as you mentioned, providing technical assistance that states need to understand the resources best, and also to encourage states and tribes to assume the responsibility for federal permitting programs will be a priority of mine if confirmed.
▶ 0:52:47Chair Capito: Thank you, good. Mr. szabo, same question. Can you describe what you see as the primary benefits? I don't know if you had experience with this in your prior government service.
▶ 0:52:57Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator. I would say that for me it is, as I mentioned in my opening statement and my conversations with you and other senators on both sides of the aisle, the importance of cooperative federalism, as david mentioned, it is important that states have the primary role in regulating. They know what's best for their states. It is something I believe. It is something which the clean air act requires.
▶ 0:53:27Mr. Szabo: States know how to regulate their entities the best, and it's important to allow them to do that under the clean air act. Additionally, it is also important not to punish those states for emissions that are not the fault of their own state. I believe we can work better in a cooperative manner with the states and provide those environmental protections faster.
▶ 0:53:51Chair Capito: Thank you. It's important to note that in the last administration, under one of the provisions the states were asked to do a state implementation plan. When doing that, to the epa for their oversight, they scrapped all of the state plans and said, no, you are going to do the federal plan. To me that doesn't speak of cooperative federalism. Again, we want to keep our eye on the core functions but also what functions the best.
▶ 0:54:20Chair Capito: Want to talk a little bit about electric energy reliability. We know that the clean power plan, you have a lot of experience with this, intentionally designed to impose unattainable requirements for the retirement of oil and gas plants. At the same time prices have skyrocketed and all reliability has been called into question.
▶ 0:54:49Chair Capito: The north american electric reliability forecasts that well over half of the U.S. will face potential electricity shortages and blackout risks. This is largely a result of reduced supply of baseload power. Mr. szabo, I warned your predecessor, Mr. goffman, about his potential to undermine our grid several times and you ignore the warnings.
▶ 0:55:14Chair Capito: As you oversee the clean air act to protect public health and environment, will you ensure that the agency takes into account electric reliability and energy affordability on the impacts on american families?
▶ 0:55:28Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator, for the question. Currently, and if confirmed, we are bound by what is stated in the clean air act, and that includes the consideration of the costs and impacts on the country.
▶ 0:55:42Mr. Szabo: With respect to any action within section 111, that the clean power plan 2.0, whatever you want to call it, was established under, we must follow the law including the consideration of impacts on electricity reliability.
▶ 0:56:01Chair Capito: I would say too, at 1.I remember seeing a chart of where this is number 1, 2, 3, 4. They reordered where the priority should lie in terms of looking at reliability, and I would discourage that. Mr. fotouhi, do you have a comment on the reliability issue?
▶ 0:56:25Mr. Fotouhi: Yes, thank you. I think the agency needs to heed the decision of the supreme court in the west virginia case in particular. It was very clear that epa is not a grid-wide energy regulator. It is not an entity that is responsible for determining whether generation shifting should occur between different sources. Epa should always win and plummeting the clean air act or any other program abide by its statutory authority that congress delegated to it.
▶ 0:56:55Chair Capito: Before I turn to the ranking member I have to slip out here at we have a roll call vote in commerce. I will do that and come back.
▶ 0:57:04Sen. Whitehouse: Mr. szabo, good morning. What affects our carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion having in the earth's atmosphere?
▶ 0:57:16Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator, for that question. I cannot speak to generally what the specific impacts would be from fossil fuels, but carbon dioxide, in combination with other greenhouse gases, can result in heat being trapped in the atmosphere.
▶ 0:57:38Sen. Whitehouse: Can result or are actually resulting?
▶ 0:57:42Mr. Szabo: My understanding is there is some heat trapping that occurs from greenhouse gases.
▶ 0:57:48Sen. Whitehouse: Is it not scientifically established that co2 and methane are greenhouse gases that trap heat in the atmosphere?
▶ 0:57:56Mr. Szabo: That is my understanding.
▶ 0:58:00Sen. Whitehouse: What effect does methane leakage from fossil fuel production and transport have in the atmosphere?
▶ 0:58:06Mr. Szabo: Thank you for the question. As I mentioned previously, I cannot call out with a specific impacts would be from methane from fossil fuels, but methane in general is also a greenhouse gas that can trap heat in the atmosphere.
▶ 0:58:23Sen. Whitehouse: Can trap heat in the atmosphere or actually does trap heat in the atmosphere right now?
▶ 0:58:29Mr. Szabo: It does. I'm not specific to every single molecule of methane. I know in general methane does trap heat, but I am not a scientist and I don't know what the impact of every single molecule of methane may be in the atmosphere?
▶ 0:58:45Sen. Whitehouse: What effect are carbon young set emissions having in the oceans -- carbon dioxide emissions having in the oceans?
▶ 0:58:55Mr. Szabo: In respect to carbon dioxide in general, it does result in the acidification of the ocean, as well as there is heat trapping in the oceans, as you mentioned in your opening statement.
▶ 0:59:07Sen. Whitehouse: How much heat trapping? How would you measure what the oceans are taking up in terms of excess heat from carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion?
▶ 0:59:23Mr. Szabo: As I mentioned, I can't speak to specifically from carbon fuel production, my understanding is I believe noaa has stated 90% of the heat is trapped in the ocean.
▶ 0:59:37Sen. Whitehouse: You have no disagreement with that?
▶ 0:59:40Mr. Szabo: I am not a scientist, so I defer to the scientists.
▶ 0:59:45Sen. Whitehouse: You understand excess heat going into the ocean is measured in an enormous number with 21 zeros?
▶ 0:59:53Mr. Szabo: As I mentioned, I am not a scientist, but if that is the number, I am not aware of the exact number.
▶ 1:00:01Sen. Whitehouse: Have we hit the 1.5 degree climate risk threshold? Why is that important?
▶ 1:00:10Mr. Szabo: My understanding is that we are on a trajectory to hit that threshold according to scientists. The stated importance of that, I believe, is that climate impacts would get worse at that degree temperature.
▶ 1:00:37Mr. Szabo: However, my understanding is that was also a policy decision that was made as part of the u.n. Discussions in the paris climate accord.
▶ 1:00:49Sen. Whitehouse: You used the word stated does that indicate hesitation in believing that?
▶ 1:00:55Mr. Szabo: My understanding is that are very scientific studies on the impact of 1.5 degrees --
▶ 1:01:04Sen. Whitehouse: What do they generally conclude?
▶ 1:01:07Mr. Szabo: It would depend on which -- as I said, I'm not a scientist.
▶ 1:01:14Sen. Whitehouse: What do they generally conclude, the consensus message about 1.5 degrees as a risk threshold?
▶ 1:01:22Mr. Szabo: That it could result in increased climate change based upon that temperature threshold.
▶ 1:01:31Sen. Whitehouse: What are key climate tipping points that you would watch in your position to try to avoid?
▶ 1:01:41Mr. Szabo: Senator, I believe that the climate is changing. I believe that it is important for us to adapt to any change, including those that occur with respect to climate.
▶ 1:01:55Sen. Whitehouse: Not to mitigate or prevent it, just adapt to it even if it is man-made pollution driving it?
▶ 1:02:02Mr. Szabo: I am currently and if confirmed bound by the laws that congress has established, and cannot --
▶ 1:02:11Sen. Whitehouse: Are we now on a pathway to climate safety, or do we need to do more to reduce carbon emissions in order to get on that pathway?
▶ 1:02:21Mr. Szabo: As I mentioned, stated previously, I believe we need to be adapting to all changes, including those to the climate.
▶ 1:02:29Sen. Whitehouse: Thank you.
▶ 1:02:33Chair Capito: Senator whitehouse? No, senator cramer.
▶ 1:02:42Sen. Cramer: As tempting as it is to give senator whitehouse my time, I will take some of it first. I joined the chairwoman and thanking you for your personal testimonies and being so transparent. It is inspirational to say the least. One or both of you have referenced the united states' contribution to the global issue.
▶ 1:03:10Sen. Cramer: We far too often take all the blame for our own excellence compared to the world that is quite mediocre by comparison, in my view. I share chairman capito's affection for cooperative federalism.
▶ 1:03:31Sen. Cramer: For the life of me, I don't know why a state like north dakota, west virginia, or any state of excellence would relinquish that excellence to mediocrity at the federal level. That said, I want to explore with you a little bit about the contribution of the united states' emissions compared to the global's emissions.
▶ 1:04:00Sen. Cramer: As I see a reduction, and one or both have testified to the reduction we have been making as an economy while growing our economy, manufacturing base, and energy sector at a time when their are actual electricity hogs out there waiting for a place for the opportunity to invest.
▶ 1:04:26Sen. Cramer: Why would they seek the united states if we are going to have what I think are actually very noncompetitive regulatory issues? That said, I have been looking -- by the way, I'm not as smart as you guys, but I am fairly nerdy and pretty resourceful. Having been an energy regulator for a long time, the issue of reliability is a big deal.
▶ 1:04:50Sen. Cramer: The issue of availability at a time when -- ai or crypto or the energy hogs, they are looking for places to land and I think that's important. I would like to explore our contribution, our declining contribution in the global state of things. Mr. szabo, maybe you can start with what you may know about various models and data and how the united states measures up?
▶ 1:05:22Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator cramer. This will not be a shock to anyone, but we have significantly decreased both our greenhouse gas and traditional air pollution emissions tremendously, especially over the past 20 years, while other countries, such as china, have significantly increased their greenhouse gas emissions as well as their traditional air pollution emissions over the years.
▶ 1:05:52Mr. Szabo: What we are seeing now is that international emissions, as you mentioned about not talking about some of the other things, traditional air pollution from china impacts states like california due to the transport from the pacific.
▶ 1:06:08Mr. Szabo: Generally, if we shut off all greenhouse gas emissions in this country tomorrow, that would not have any real impact on the increases we've seen from other countries around the world, specifically china.
▶ 1:06:26Sen. Cramer: Anything to add to that?
▶ 1:06:29Mr. Fotouhi: Thank you, senator. I would echo those comments. Something over the past 20 years or so, as Mr. szabo was saying, american greenhouse gas emissions have decreased by something like one million tons per year while china's has increased by six or 7 million tons per year, completely swamping our hard-earned reductions in greenhouse gas emissions.
▶ 1:06:55Mr. Fotouhi: I think to the extent there needs to be work to be done to address that issue, it needs to be done both domestically and internationally.
▶ 1:07:07Sen. Cramer: I have been looking at data in modeling. Would it be an exaggeration to say that the trend, our trend of going down the rest of the world, particularly the big polluters, going up, in terms of nations, that our power sector could be contributing less than .2% of emissions in the future with current trends? Does that sound plausible?
▶ 1:07:36Mr. Szabo: Senator, I would have to look at the exact data, but I'm happy to work with you on those numbers after talking to staff. Make sure that we are working on getting those values.
▶ 1:07:49Sen. Cramer: I would welcome that opportunity and wish you both well.
▶ 1:07:53Chair Capito: Senator padilla.
▶ 1:07:56Sen. Padilla: Thank you to both of the nominees before us for their public service, I especially appreciate the comments that have been made by Mr. szabo especially and even the chairwoman recognizing our collective mission to achieve clean air.
▶ 1:08:19Sen. Padilla: Clean air is possible because of not just the environmental but the health impacts that pollution and contaminants have, and of the recognition that state and local governments have a primary role. Did I get that language correct in your testimony for both of you?
▶ 1:08:36Mr. Fotouhi: Yes.
▶ 1:08:38Mr. Szabo: Yes.
▶ 1:08:39Sen. Padilla: It is in that spirit proudly representing california, which prides itself in policy leadership in so many areas, including and especially when it comes to environmental protection and clean air, and given the special collaborative relationship over the years between the state of california and the federal government, I would like Mr.
▶ 1:09:02Sen. Padilla: Szabo to walk me through the statutory basis for epa's authority to grant california a waiver of federal preemption under the clean air act.
▶ 1:09:12Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator padilla. It was a pleasure talking to you earlier about various issues related to california. The clean air act requires epa to provide a waiver to california, assuming that certain requirements are met with respect to that.
▶ 1:09:39Mr. Szabo: To my knowledge, we currently don't have any waivers in front of epa.
▶ 1:09:45Sen. Padilla: That is not my question. I'm well aware of what was submitted in the prior administration, waivers that were granted, requests that have been withdrawn, and for the record it is from section 209 of the clean air act which allows california to exercise its waiver of opportunity and adopt its own emissions standards if those requests are granted.
▶ 1:10:11Sen. Padilla: In the statute, can you show us, Mr. szabo, under which specific statutory conditions can epa deny a waiver request?
▶ 1:10:22Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator. At this time I cannot recall the exact provisions in 209 and do not want to provide incorrect information, but I'm happy to get back with you.
▶ 1:10:34Sen. Padilla: Red flag number one. Obviously you're up for consideration for critical position for air quality, not just the health impacts that you both shared with the committee. We are talking about the state of california, the most populous state in the nation and home to the largest number of people who live in non-containment levels.
▶ 1:11:03Sen. Padilla: We know the federal government hasn't done as much as they can and should do to improve air quality in california and elsewhere. We know california has taken it upon itself to do more. Given the jurisdictional balance and relationship between state and federal governments, california has been successful through the waiver process to achieve more gains. Yet, you cannot articulate to me the basis for denying a waiver request that will play such a critical role is concerning.
▶ 1:11:29Sen. Padilla: Does the clean air act give the epa discretion to deny a waiver simply because the administrator may disagree with california's policy?
▶ 1:11:39Mr. Szabo: My understanding is, no. It would not be just because of policy goals.
▶ 1:11:48Sen. Padilla: So, the answer is not discretion, then? On behalf of the administrator and agency?
▶ 1:11:56Mr. Szabo: From my regulation there's nothing that would state it would be a policy difference between california and the federal government.
▶ 1:12:05Sen. Padilla: Do you believe that california faces compelling and extraordinary conditions when it comes to air quality?
▶ 1:12:14Mr. Szabo: When it comes to traditional air pollution, I believe that that can be the case.
▶ 1:12:19Sen. Padilla: By traditional air pollution, the epa is tackling pollutants and air quality?
▶ 1:12:27Mr. Szabo: I believe when it comes to national avian air quality standards, that is what -- as well as hazardous air pollutants, that is what I mean by --
▶ 1:12:37Sen. Padilla: To your knowledge has an administrator denied a waiver on the grounds that california doesn't face compelling and extraordinary conditions?
▶ 1:12:48Mr. Szabo: I believe that was part of the justification in the 2020 safe vehicle role part one.
▶ 1:12:56Sen. Padilla: For the record, the answer is no. The epa tried to deny on other grounds but never for the argument that california doesn't face compelling and extraordinary conditions. Mr. szabo, my time is running out so I will end with this. Can you point to where in the clean air act gives the epa the authority to revoke a waiver once it is granted?
▶ 1:13:19Mr. Szabo: I believe that would be within section 209? Of the clean air act?
▶ 1:13:27Sen. Padilla: Actually, no. We know that there will be efforts to do just that, so my time is up. We will end with the recognition, the important distinction between a waiver request, waiver denial, waiver being granted versus rulemaking.
▶ 1:13:47Sen. Padilla: So when there are attempts by congress to undo a waiver that was granted, president has established that it is not appropriate because a waiver is a waiver, not a rule.
▶ 1:14:00Chair Capito: Senator said.
▶ 1:14:03Sen. Husted: Thank you, chairman
▶ 1:14:08Husted: Thank you. Mr. szabo, I want to bring up an issue we talked about briefly, a stone my experience in the east palestine train derailment that happened there.
▶ 1:14:33Husted: Just for the shake of -- sake of sharing something that can hopefully be helpful is that one of the things that happened in that crisis moment is that while we had a team of people on the ground there from the epa who were very versed in the rules and regulations, they were not very versed at crisis management.
▶ 1:14:57Husted: And I just share with you in our conversation that this administration in the course of four years will face one of those moments. It is inevitable that the unexpected will occur, and I just want to share thoughts, and either of you can respond to this about thoughts you have on how we can be better-prepared for a time of crisis.
▶ 1:15:29Mr. Szabo: I'm happy to respond initially. It is a critical function of the agency, its response function. I had the privilege when I worked at the agency during the first trump administration to work with the career civil servants that are housed in that emergency response office within the office of land in emergency management and across epa's general offices.
▶ 1:15:52Mr. Szabo: They are often the ones who planned for natural disasters, things like hurricanes, making sure that industrial sites are prepared so that there are not environmental incidents as a result of a disaster. Similarly they play an important role in responding to issues like the east palestine drammen or fires in los angeles, or floods in western north carolina, and administrators held in in his first month on the job is made the emergency response a critical priority. If confirmed I would support him in that effort.
▶ 1:16:29Sen. Husted: My next question is , in the final data provided administration they imposed a new rule at epa over -- it is called a nuisance rule.
▶ 1:16:51Sen. Husted: It was enacted on january 20, regarding rules on air, dust, grime, things like that. It is unique to ohio. Like, we have our own nuisance rule regulations in ohio that would be adjudicated through the ohio court system.
▶ 1:17:14Sen. Husted: And now we have one state that was identified, physically picked on the epa and the administration to put this new rule in place, and the ohio delegation is united behind eliminating that. But this is what we talk about when we talk about the federal government imposing things on states without the cooperation of those states.
▶ 1:17:45Sen. Husted: And the people who understand what makes sense in those states, and I would ask for your support, in our efforts to overturn this rule, and any comments you have about that, or the partnership between federal and state regulators in general.
▶ 1:18:06Mr. Szabo: Senator, thank you for that question. In my time at epa I've heard about the issues with that action. If confirmed and just in general right now, as I stated in my opening statement and in our conversations, cooperative federalism is key.
▶ 1:18:28Mr. Szabo: That is working with the states, not against them, and I look forward to working with you as well as the state of ohio in resolving these kind of concerns and issues.
▶ 1:18:40Sen. Husted: Thank you. I will close with this thought. The people who run state government, the epa, the governors, the communities that are affected, they care more about their states and communities than anybody else. They know what's best.
▶ 1:19:04Sen. Husted: Please be collaborative with the states of this nation and their regulators and enforcement entities to make sure they can solve environmental issues and do it in a timely manner, but also in the manner that is not heard and send -- burdensome to the people living in operating in those dates. Thank you.
▶ 1:19:23Chair Capito: Thank you.
▶ 1:19:27Sen. Alsobrooks: Congratulations on your nominations. Last week at his cap meeting the president said that administrators alban, I think he said, he thinks he is going to be cutting 65% or so of the budget, the people, he said, from the epa. Administrators alban later clarified that he meant six to 5% of the agencies 8 -- agency's budget.
▶ 1:19:56Sen. Alsobrooks: I just want to be clear and get a direct answer. Do you support cutting the epa's budget by 65%?
▶ 1:20:04Mr. Fotouhi: Senator, thank you for the question. I appreciate the time you took to meet with me earlier in this process. My view is that what administrators old and has referred to publicly on that issue is that the production would relate to the amount of expenditure in 2024, which included a significant amount of ira funding as opposed to a reduction of the base budget, which is up for congress to
▶ 1:20:34Mr. Fotouhi: Determine.
▶ 1:20:34Sen. Alsobrooks: So you agree then that the role of funding levels belongs to congress and not to the administration?
▶ 1:20:44Mr. Fotouhi: Senator, congress sets epa's budget.
▶ 1:20:48Sen. Alsobrooks: So then if you are confirmed will you enforce the law, including appropriations law, and ensure that that function continues to remain one that is a congressional function?
▶ 1:20:59Mr. Fotouhi: Senator, thank you for the question. On the sheet -- on this issue and all issues will always follow the law and advise administrators old and in the same manner. That extends to issues related to appropriations and budget.
▶ 1:21:13Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you. In maryland we are doing really great work during where climate is concerned. And we are also working to reduce ring house gas emissions and air pollutants. There are many actions related to maryland's state implementation for the clean air act that are pending approval at the epa. This is very critical to maryland. It ensures that my constituents have healthy air to breathe and also provides certainty to businesses.
▶ 1:21:44Sen. Alsobrooks: I understand there are similar backlogs in other states, and it is because of the office you have been nominated to lead is understaffed and not over-staff. So the question is, in light of this concern around slashing budgets, how we you achieve the efficiencies that will be needed to ensure we have clean air to breathe and we meet our other goalposts if we are cutting budgets and slashing a workforce?
▶ 1:22:12Mr. Fotouhi: Senator, thank you for the question. It is a priority of mine, if confirmed, to ensure that across the agency we are reducing backlogs for things like state implementation plans under the clean air act, for water quality standards, for states under the clean water act.
▶ 1:22:32Mr. Fotouhi: Others like permit applications and the like, working to ensure with administrators alban that appropriate staffing is put in the right places and we have the expertise needed to process those applications and implementation plans in a timely manner. It would be an area of emphasis with me and I look forward to working with you.
▶ 1:22:57Sen. Alsobrooks: This question I would be asking of Mr. szabo. The cost of homeowners insurance is on the rise. Since 2018 homeowners insurance nonrenewal's have increased by 30% in maryland. This means major homeowners insurance providers are dropping hundreds of thousands of policyholders in response to frequent extreme weather events caused by climate change.
▶ 1:23:21Sen. Alsobrooks: I want to know whether or not you acknowledge that the root cause of climate change, including reducing greenhouse gas emissions, has a very serious connection to what we are seeing in terms of unaffordable insurance premiums and ask what you intend to do about that.
▶ 1:23:39Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator, for that question. In my current role and if confirmed while I believe that it is important that we as americans and humans continue to adapt to all changes, including those with respect to climate, I would not have any regulatory authority over the insurance markets themselves and how those
▶ 1:24:10Mr. Szabo: Insurance companies may or may not react due to changes in the climate, but I am fully supportive of americans and people adapting to any changes in the climate that may be occurring.
▶ 1:24:21Sen. Alsobrooks: I know my time is out, but you agree that the effects of climate change are driving economic hardship for families?
▶ 1:24:28Mr. Szabo: I believe that there are impacts due to climate change.
▶ 1:24:33Chair Capito: Senator curtis.
▶ 1:24:36Sen. Curtis: Great to be with you. Thank you for coming by my office. I think it is important to have this discussion so that everybody, particularly back in utah, can hear our discussion and your thoughts on it. As we discuss, utah's unique geography require a nuanced approach.
▶ 1:25:04Sen. Curtis: Approximately 80% of our ozone -- ozone emitting from earth services are outside the region. We only control 20% of the ozone in the area. Utah's air quality has improved significantly, and that is because our publicly-elected officials, or education, our business leaders have all made commitments, and we have had it -- had great investments in technology.
▶ 1:25:34Sen. Curtis: I'm grateful for the administration's early jump into this and some of the relief we received. Please pass on my gratitude for that. Oil and gas production in the region, where we provide affordable, reliable, and clean energy are burdened by epa standards and don't account for this unique geography we have in utah. Fortunately all of our stakeholders are all committed.
▶ 1:26:02Sen. Curtis: The education community, the political route -- political leaders are all committed to this. Despite the final stretch of the biden administration epa reversed course. They issued a final ruling, redesigning the basin as nonattainment with significant impact economically otherwise for our area. Once again, thank you for your help there.
▶ 1:26:28Sen. Curtis: I would like to ask both of you so folks back home can hear if confirmed, can we count on this flexibility in working with regional administrators to follow their lead in dealing with tough issues, and hopefully have that commitment from both of you? Mr. szabo, if you want to jump in?
▶ 1:26:46Mr. Szabo: It was great talking with you yesterday about these issues as well. In my current role I will commit that we will work with the state of utah as well as all of the states under each state's unique issued.
▶ 1:27:05Mr. Fotouhi: Thank you, senator, and also appreciated the time eating with you. -- meeting with you.
▶ 1:27:23Sen. Curtis: I'm glad you mentioned that. Everybody wants clean air. We just have seen unique geographic features -- some unique geographic features. We have a number of small suppliers, and they struggle to meet the methane regulations. Not out of oil, but simply out of resources. We find that epa sometimes has been overly-restrictive in how they fixed the problem. Rather than defining what they want fixed and letting people get there through technologies.
▶ 1:27:55Sen. Curtis: Once again I would like to ask for your help with regional administrators to get to the end goal and not be so prescriptive on how we get there.
▶ 1:28:05Mr. Fotouhi: Absolutely.
▶ 1:28:06Mr. Szabo: Yes, you have my commitment on that.
▶ 1:28:09Sen. Curtis: Mr. fotouhi, we talked about this chemical problem. I would also like to clarify, the previous administration, we had 0% of chemicals approved within the statutory guideline. Any of these chemicals would replace currently-problematic michael's back for our environment. By not approving them we are harming our environment.
▶ 1:28:34Sen. Curtis: And I would like to just have you share with you my commitment in getting these approved in a timely manner.
▶ 1:28:43Mr. Fotouhi: It is a critical function the agency performs, to review new chemicals, and he needs to do so in its statutory timelines and consideration of the science as well. And, as you said, those chemicals often replace older chemistries and the newer chemicals are often more environmentally friendly.
▶ 1:29:07Mr. Fotouhi: So, you have my commitment to take that as an area of emphasis so that epa gets back on track and is meeting its statutory obligations in its statutory obligations in his new chemicals program.
▶ 1:29:16Sen. Curtis: Thank you. With all of my love and affection for you and your new boss, you will have a honeymoon period, and then I will use this pulpit to be tough on you, as I was your predecessors, if we are not getting those approved. Thank you. I yield my time.
▶ 1:29:30Chair Capito: Senator schiff.
▶ 1:29:34Sen. Schiff: Thank you, madam chair. Mr. szabo, is [indiscernible]
▶ 1:29:42Mr. Szabo: Yes, the climate is changing.
▶ 1:29:45Sen. Curtis: Mr. fotouhi, the same question?
▶ 1:29:48Mr. Fotouhi: Yes.
▶ 1:29:51Sen. Schiff: Would you agree that human activities contribute to climate change?
▶ 1:29:55Mr. Szabo: Senator, I believe there are many things that can create the climate to change and that would include human activities, would it not?
▶ 1:30:07Mr. Szabo: In the aggregate there is a potential impact from human activities on the climate.
▶ 1:30:12Sen. Schiff: And you would agree, Mr. fotouhi, that human activity contributes to changes in the climate?
▶ 1:30:19Mr. Fotouhi: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:30:20Sen. Schiff: And some of those activities include burning oil and gas, Mr. szabo?
▶ 1:30:25Mr. Szabo: I believe there are many activities that can release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. In general.
▶ 1:30:33Sen. Schiff: I'm asking you in particular, burning coal, burning oil, burning gas contributes to climate change, does it not?
▶ 1:30:42Mr. Szabo: Uh, those activities, uh, do release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
▶ 1:30:51Sen. Schiff: Mr. fotouhi, you would agree that earning coal, oil, and gas contributes to climate change?
▶ 1:30:57Mr. Szabo: Senator, and mission of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere has -- plays a role and does contribute to changing climate.
▶ 1:31:04Sen. Schiff: And in particular burning coal, oil, and gas contributes to climate change?
▶ 1:31:10Mr. Fotouhi: Senator, those activities, depending on how they are undertaken, can result in the emission of greenhouse gases, yes, including methane.
▶ 1:31:19Sen. Schiff: And trying to address climate change, would you agree that trying to reduce our reliance on coal, oil, and gas as they are contributors to climate change makes sense, Mr. szabo?
▶ 1:31:32Mr. Szabo: I believe it is important that we adapt to any changes, including with respect to the climate and I believe that the american people can adapt to those changes.
▶ 1:31:46Sen. Schiff: That is a bit of a murky answer. If coal, oil, and gas are contributing to climate change would you agree that one strategy to address climate change would be to reduce our reliance on coal, oil, and gas?
▶ 1:32:00Mr. Szabo: I believe, uh, once again, that we can adapt to the potential impacts from, change without causing potential issues to our reliance on our natural resources within this country.
▶ 1:32:15Sen. Schiff: I'm not sure I understand that answer. If coal, oil, and gas are contribute into climate change wouldn't make sense as part of our strategy to address climate change to reduce our reliance on coal, oil, and gas? Yes or no?
▶ 1:32:29Mr. Szabo: Senator, I think it is important to take, with respect to the potential impacts from those sources of omissions, with respect to the global nature of any -- with climate change and consider that with respect to any policy positions moving forward.
▶ 1:32:48Sen. Schiff: I'm still having trouble understanding your answer. Should we reduce the consumption , the burning of coal, oil, and gas as part of a strategy to mitigate climate change? Yes or no?
▶ 1:33:03Mr. Szabo: Senator, I believe it is important that we follow the law with respect to any actions we take. If congress wishes for us to take a different action on climate change I -- I would leave that into the decision of those in congress about what policies the united states would take with respect to that.
▶ 1:33:28Sen. Schiff: But as a potential top official in the epa you would agree, would you not, that if coal, oil, and gas contribute to climate change and climate change is resulting in her in this fire is like we had in los angeles and stronger hurricanes, and more flooding, that one part of a sensible approach to dealing with climate change would be to reduce our reliance
▶ 1:33:59Sen. Schiff: On fossil fuels contributing to the crisis. Would you agree with that?
▶ 1:34:03Mr. Szabo: I would say the wildfires in california were tragic. There were many reasons as to what the result of -- why those wildfires occurred in and of themselves.
▶ 1:34:14Sen. Schiff: Mr. szabo, do you think the oil industry has a disproportionate impact on our ability, willingness, to speak plainly about climate change? You seem to be having difficulty . Does the oil industry exert too great an influence on our policy dealing with climate change, such that you cannot answer that question?
▶ 1:34:39Mr. Szabo: Uh, no. And I am curious if you are insinuating that I am somehow under the influence of the oil and natural gas industry. I have been consulting with career --
▶ 1:34:56Sen. Schiff: I think this whole congress is under the influence of the oil, coal, and gas industry. That makes it so difficult to answer such a simple question about whether these are contributors to climate change. When a sensible policy be to reduce our reliance on them? There is some explanation for why the question is difficult to answer, and it is not science. I yield back.
▶ 1:35:18Chair Capito: Senator ricketts.
▶ 1:35:20Sen. Ricketts: Great. Thank you, chairman. Thank you, ranking member, for holding this hearing today. Thank you to our witnesses, our nominees, for being willing to serve. I want to hit upon some of the things that have come up in this topic before. First of all, the cooperative federalism. You have states being responsible. But he cares more about our environment than the states. A former governor, that is what we want to do.
▶ 1:35:48Sen. Ricketts: We want clean air, clean water, so we want to work properly with the epa. When the epa throws out state implementation plans it is a disregard for the law and our system of federalism. I think that is one aspect. I also want to hit upon this idea of consensus. Because there was a consensus early in the pandemic -- and I was just introducing the health committee about, we should lock down schools.
▶ 1:36:17Sen. Ricketts: Turns out that consensus was wrong, right? Science is about arguing. It is about research. It is about not everything -- you may have a theory and you tested and you have research and there is going to be research not always agree. So, consensus is meant to be challenged, right? That is what the point of science is. So, we want to make sure we are thinking about those things, and for example when you're talking -- the senator from california was talking about oil and gas.
▶ 1:36:47Sen. Ricketts: Why don't we sequester carbon dioxide if you are worried about that? We can burn coal and the technologies could be out there. We don't have to reduce it, we could sequester the carbon dioxide. So, there are other solutions out there. I don't think we have to run to one size big government solution, and that has been the problem from the last administration, to try to mandate certain solutions like ev's that don't work in a place like nebraska. Let's let american innovation solve these problems. One of the innovations happens to be biofuels.
▶ 1:37:19Sen. Ricketts: The chairman knows I love talking about biofuels. You see how I pulled that altogether? [laughter] so, the good news is, biofuels are safe at the pump and can save consumers money at the pump. They clean up our environment, all of the things the senator from california wants to do, and it is good for our farmers and ranchers. What I want to do is just work on making sure we can do that. E 15 is one of the things we can do.
▶ 1:37:49Sen. Ricketts: The epa has been issuing waivers to do that but this is a very simple question for the both of you. The waiver is an annual emergency thing. To make it permanent, Mr. fotouhi, don't we need to pass a bill on e15? Legislation has to be passed to make you 15 permanent. Is that right?
▶ 1:38:12Mr. Fotouhi: That is my view. When I served in the first term of the trump administration at epa we attempted a regulatory proceeding to allow for the expanded use of e15 and a quart determined the agency lacked statutory standing for that action. That is the congressional intent, then congressional action is returned -- is required for the epa to take that on.
▶ 1:38:39Mr. Fotouhi: Without going through the rvp waiver or emergency waiver process.
▶ 1:38:44Sen. Ricketts: Mr. szabo, same question.
▶ 1:38:47Mr. Szabo: I would echo what david said, and, yes.
▶ 1:38:51Sen. Ricketts: Perfect. Second, additionally timely renewable volume obligations are mandated by the renewable fuels standard. That is a law. To be biofuels priority for the epa. Powerful producers in the fuel markets that need to be published reliably in thoughtful increments and should be reflected in market realities.
▶ 1:39:14Sen. Ricketts: I understand you cannot prejudge the outcome of any industry rulemaking, but, again, because the rvo's are a year late. Do each commit to implementing statutory directives in the renewable fuels standard to publish a timely rulemaking for the renewable volume obligations?
▶ 1:39:38Mr. Fotouhi: Senator, thank you for the question. It is important that we had our statutory timing obligations for setting rvos. When epa set the rv oprah 2020 three half the year had already passed, and that is not the type of clarity and certainty all market participants needed from this program. So, my view is that the timelines are very important.
▶ 1:40:02Mr. Szabo: Senator, I agree with what david said, and commit to making sure we get rvos out in time to provide that certainty.
▶ 1:40:13Sen. Ricketts: Following the law is exactly the right answer from both of you. I look forward to your speedy confirmations.
▶ 1:40:19Chair Capito: Thank you. We may have some others coming. We did commit to have a second round. I have one question, and then I will go to the ranking member, and then senator padilla, do you have a question for the second round? Yeah. Mr. fotouhi, you have served as an attorney who has advised and litigated on behalf of both private clients and the epa for almost 15 years.
▶ 1:40:47Chair Capito: How that experience guide your approach to ensuring the epa rules are consistent with statute and durable for the long term? I think this part of the problem. We have been on this panel for 10 years. The swings in administrations and regulations and viewpoints and other -- reflected really on the question coming from the panelists, from the senators as well.
▶ 1:41:13Chair Capito: I think it is a difficult part of the system, because I don't know how people adjust from a business standpoint, environmental, or municipality. Even a state. How does your past experience would be consistent not just with the statute, but more durable, so we don't have the swings we have seen recently?
▶ 1:41:32Mr. Fotouhi: Thank you for the question, senator. Rule of law is my touchdown. It is extremely important to me as an environmental lawyer, as it was the case when I served at epa. In my role there, advising the administrator on options and legal issues. The critical touchdown has to be in every occasion ensuring that we are following the congressional authorization and statutory language that has been drafted by congress.
▶ 1:42:04Mr. Fotouhi: The supreme court has been very clear on this point, repeatedly. In the biden administration alone the biden epa lost every supreme court case that it had in front of a court over the last four years. We need to restore trust in epa's actions, and part of that is to ensure those actions are done consistently with law and that we are not over reading our statutory authority and exceeding the boundaries that this congress has placed on the agency.
▶ 1:42:31Mr. Fotouhi: With regard to your point about switching and lack of predictability and certainty, I think the waters of the U.S. rule as a prime example of that, where a court has now spoken and the sackett decision, in a very prescriptive manner about what is and is not jurisdictional under the clean water act, and it is incumbent now on the agency to clarify that for the american public so they can understand when they need a permit from the corps of
▶ 1:43:02Mr. Fotouhi: Engineers or epa or their state and when they don't, without hiring a legion of consultants and attorneys to tell them what the law means.
▶ 1:43:08Chair Capito: Senator whitehouse.
▶ 1:43:10Sen. Whitehouse: Mr. szabo, let's go back to your work for project 2025. You were a contributor to that document and were thanked by the author of the chapter on epa, correct?
▶ 1:43:25Mr. Szabo: Yes, that is correct, senator.
▶ 1:43:29Sen. Ricketts: How did you contribute?
▶ 1:43:31Sen. Whitehouse: What precise --
▶ 1:43:33Sen. Whitehouse: How did you contribute? What precise advice did you give?
▶ 1:43:37Mr. Szabo: Think of the question, senator. I provided just general advice and thoughts about -- with respect to policies that -- within the clean air act section, specifically.
▶ 1:43:50Sen. Ricketts: Do you have or did they have any record of the advice you gave?
▶ 1:43:55Mr. Szabo: I am not aware of any records they may have. I was a volunteer and I do not have any records.
▶ 1:44:05Sen. Ricketts: You have no notes, memos, nothing was in writing in all of this?
▶ 1:44:11Mr. Szabo: I have no record, senator.
▶ 1:44:13Sen. Ricketts: Is that because you had records and you have gotten rid of them, or were there never any records?
▶ 1:44:19Mr. Szabo: Senator, I have no records.
▶ 1:44:22Sen. Ricketts: That doesn't answer the question. Is the reason you have no records because you got rid of your records of your engagement with project 2025?
▶ 1:44:30Mr. Szabo: Senator, uh, as a -- as a private organization I'm not sure what their record-keeping policies were or are, but I do not have any records.
▶ 1:44:46Sen. Ricketts: Did you submit anything in writing to them at any point? Did you ever have records? You not them, you. -- you. Not them, you.
▶ 1:44:57Mr. Szabo: Senator, I provided advice to project 2025.
▶ 1:45:02Sen. Ricketts: How? By email, phone, personal conversations, memos?
▶ 1:45:07Mr. Szabo: Senator, I provided them advice in a number of ways.
▶ 1:45:11Sen. Ricketts: Including ways that were in writing?
▶ 1:45:15Mr. Szabo: Uh, senator, that is likely.
▶ 1:45:20Sen. Ricketts: Likely? Isn't that something you would actually know, since it was your advice and you would have written it down? How is that likely? Isn't that yes or no?
▶ 1:45:30Mr. Szabo: Senator, I would have to go back and, as I said, I have no records. I would have to go think more about whether there were --
▶ 1:45:40Sen. Ricketts: I will ask you to think more and also to make this records preservation request and we will follow-up as appropriate. The epa chapter of project 2025 has dedicated five pages to the office of air and radiation, which you intend to lead.
▶ 1:45:59Sen. Ricketts: Do you stand by the policy recommendations in that subsection related to climate change, hfcs, mobile and stationary source permitting, clean air act sections 111 and 112, radiation, and epa personnel?
▶ 1:46:20Mr. Szabo: Senator, thank you for the question. My understanding is these are aspirational ideas that were put out by a nonprofit which are very similar to what other nonprofits have done, including the center for american progress for decades, for potential candidates. I was not involved in any sort of final review or determination as to what went into that chapter or any of the other chapters within project 2025.
▶ 1:46:49Sen. Ricketts: Were you compensated for that work?
▶ 1:46:52Mr. Szabo: No.
▶ 1:46:54Sen. Ricketts: What is your intention -- let me go back a step. What we have seen is everybody from president trump down say, we had nothing to do with project 2025, and that is not our blueprint, and then as we watch things roll out in real life we see that it is the project 2025 print. Over and over again.
▶ 1:47:18Sen. Ricketts: And so my question to you, is it your intent going into this job to implement the recommendations of project 2025 in the office you intend to lead?
▶ 1:47:30Mr. Szabo: Senator, if confirmed, I believe in an open door policy with respect to ideas from all potential stakeholders, whether they be conservative or democratic. I am open to any group's ideas. I believe that is the best way to be a regulator. Is to have an open collaborative relationship with anyone who would like to engage with the federal government.
▶ 1:47:58Sen. Ricketts: Nice in theory, except your career working for america first, which is a fossil fuel-funded organization, doing work for american petroleum institute members, which are by definition fossil fuel corporations, facilitating project 2025, which was run by heritage, a fossil fuel-funded front group, everything in your past shows you a line with the industry that is at the heart of climate pollution, and it makes me wonder how it is possible for you to take an honest look at
▶ 1:48:30Sen. Ricketts: Climate change and the risks it presents to us. My time has expired.
▶ 1:48:36Mr. Szabo: Can answer that?
▶ 1:48:38Chair Capito: You can respond.
▶ 1:48:40Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator. I would also mention I spent over 10 point five years as a career civil servant, including over two of those -- I think two of those -- in the obama white house, implementing many of those policies, and I believe that based on my extensive career civil service that that would --
▶ 1:49:01Sen. Ricketts: Time will tell, won't it?
▶ 1:49:04Chair Capito: Senator kelly.
▶ 1:49:06Sen. Kelly: As we discussed and as I discussed with administrator zeldin during his confirmation hearing, we are facing serious challenges when it comes to ozone nonattainment under the clean air act.
▶ 1:49:30Sen. Kelly: All the data shows the overwhelming source of our ozone pollution does not come from sources within maricopa county. Yet any new development in the region needs to identify offsets to get their permit. Of course, the goal of the clean air act and a goal that I share is to find a pathway to improve air quality without stifling economic development, like arizona's clean air manufacturing industry.
▶ 1:50:01Sen. Kelly: Do you agree that the goal of the clean air act is to improve air quality?
▶ 1:50:05Mr. Szabo: Senator, it was a pleasure talking to you earlier, and, yes, the goal of the clean air act and my goal currently, and if confirmed, is to improve air quality.
▶ 1:50:15Sen. Kelly: As you know, it -- as you know, ozone pollution is a challenge to address. For my colleagues here, can you explain how ozone informs and how regions like phoenix are susceptible to ozone formation?
▶ 1:50:32Mr. Szabo: Thank you, senator, for the question. Nitrous oxides and other forms of emissions interact with the atmosphere, and therefore create ground-level ozone, which is -- can happen in -- creates smog. With respect to the geographic nature of your state, that can increase that potential ground-level ozone.
▶ 1:51:01Mr. Szabo: Especially if those -- especially with potential omissions from outside.
▶ 1:51:05Sen. Kelly: A combination of -- we've got nitrous oxide and we've got volatile organic compounds reacting with sunlight creates ozone. And the problem we have is a lot of this doesn't come from the phoenix area. In fact, somewhere between 80 and 85% of the emissions come from outside the region. Yet when a new permit has to be issued epa requires emissions reductions that generate offsets or credits that can only come from within the region.
▶ 1:51:37Sen. Kelly: Even though the ozone is coming from outside the region. Or, the organic compounds, the nitrous oxide comes from outside. If confirmed, will you commit to making yourself and your staff available to work with my staff, other members of the congressional delegation, and our arizona stakeholders to help us work through nonattainment-related challenges?
▶ 1:52:01Mr. Szabo: Yes.
▶ 1:52:01Sen. Kelly: Without prejudging outcomes will you commit to ensuring that the region nine office and epa headquarters dedicate resources to quickly review any pending new source, review permits in the region? Ideally before we move into serious nonattainment?
▶ 1:52:26Mr. Szabo: I would be happy if confirmed to work with arizona on those issues.
▶ 1:52:31Sen. Kelly: Thank you. Similarly, without prejudging outcomes with you commit to ensuring that ordination between maricopa county region nine and epa headquarters continues to make progress on the two local rules proposed by maricopa county? Spoke about these. Rule 204 and 205.
▶ 1:52:52Mr. Szabo: As I mentioned earlier, I think it is important to follow the clean air act with respect to operative federalism and commit that if confirmed in my current role will work with arizona on those issues.
▶ 1:53:05Sen. Kelly: Will you commit to having epa region nine and epa with -- work with our local officials to ensure our attainment plans can account for pollution from other countries and ensure there is a more streamlined exceptional event process for wildfire smoke?
▶ 1:53:27Mr. Szabo: Senator, yes, I can confirm that.
▶ 1:53:28Sen. Kelly: Thank you. I've got 40 more seconds. I want to talk about staffing issues and cuts. Mr. szabo, I understand you have not been a part of a staffing conversation in your current role. He spoke about that, but if confirmed you think you could reduce the number of staff in the office of air and radiation and still keep the commitments you just made to me?
▶ 1:53:50Mr. Szabo: Senator, yes, I believe we can meet our obligations with the budget provided.
▶ 1:53:56Sen. Kelly: My understanding is you have been working at epa for the past six weeks. Is that correct?
▶ 1:54:02Mr. Szabo: Since january 20, yes.
▶ 1:54:05Sen. Kelly: Has your impression been that the air office is overstaffed or understaffed?
▶ 1:54:10Mr. Szabo: Senator, I believe that both the politicals and the -- and [indiscernible] servants have been doing a great job under the clean air act.
▶ 1:54:21Sen. Kelly: Thank. Madam chair, my apologies for going over by 10 seconds.
▶ 1:54:26Chair Capito: No problem. Senator padilla.
▶ 1:54:30Sen. Padilla: Thank you, madam chairman. Happy I could make it back for the second round of questions. It's picking up where I left off. Before he left I was trying to highlight the difference and distinctions between the rulemaking process and the waiver process. Maybe then let me ask you. If you have a minute here to articulate for the record, your understanding of the difference between the two procedurally.
▶ 1:55:00Sen. Padilla: The waiver process under section 209 versus the rulemaking process under the administrative procedures act.
▶ 1:55:07Mr. Szabo: Senator, thank you for that question. My understanding is that they both go through a common period themselves, and, for instance, the california waiver grant is similar to an approval process.
▶ 1:55:27Sen. Padilla: Is the process identical, pretty much identical? How are they different?
▶ 1:55:34Mr. Szabo: They are both rules and the process is with respect to what the requirements are under the clean air act.
▶ 1:55:46Sen. Padilla: What is a rulemaking process and what is a waiver process? If you are not familiar with the important distinctions, let me move on. Does granting a waiver implement a new epa policy? Or is it simply granting, in my case the state of california, the ability for it to enforce -- enforce its own standards?
▶ 1:56:09Mr. Szabo: Similar to granting a state of limitation plan that would be providing that state, that authority.
▶ 1:56:17Sen. Padilla: Good. That is my understanding as well. When the epa does grant a waiver when does it go into effect?
▶ 1:56:27Mr. Szabo: My understanding is he goes into effect when it is signed.
▶ 1:56:34Sen. Padilla: Automatically, right? As a follow-up you may or may not know the answer to this question. What does the congressional review act say about the timeline for congress to act on a disapproval resolution?
▶ 1:56:49Mr. Szabo: I believe it is within 60 legislative days from the date it is either the later of the publication within the federal register notice or one that has been submitted to congress and gao.
▶ 1:57:04Sen. Padilla: Unless or until that happens the waiver is in effect. Is the granting of a waiver adjudicatory?
▶ 1:57:20Mr. Szabo: It is a rule under the congressional review act.
▶ 1:57:24Sen. Padilla: Are adjudicatory actions cover?
▶ 1:57:30Mr. Szabo: They are a rule under the congressional review act.
▶ 1:57:33Sen. Padilla: The waivers are not rules. That has been established. And for the record, that is why for 50 years, including under the first trump administration the epa has treated waivers, including the attempted revocation of a waiver, as an adjudication and not a rule. That is a fact.
▶ 1:57:55Sen. Padilla: I just want to end by spinning a minute emphasizing, madam chair, why I have been so insistent and precise with my line of questioning. As I mentioned earlier, california has a disproportionate number of people who live in nonattainment areas. Significantly. Several members of this committee, the state and local governments having a primary role in improving air quality.
▶ 1:58:28Sen. Padilla: For multiple reasons. From the environmental protection standpoint and a health standpoint. That is why epa can and should help collaborate. It should. When it may not be willing to it certainly should not hold up states and locals from going above and beyond, if that is what they choose, if that is what their constituents need. And deserve.
▶ 1:58:55Sen. Padilla: So that we can have less californians and less americans in the future, having to suffer from cancer. Or chronic lung disease. In other impacts of the high levels of the emissions pollutions and air contamination in so many communities throughout the country currently suffer from. Thank you, madam chair.
▶ 1:59:18Chair Capito: Thank you both very much. As we conclude here I would like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record letters of support for both nominees, and I did not give you the three standard questions that I should have done at the beginning. I apologize for that.
▶ 1:59:34Chair Capito: So I'm going to ask you now, do you agree if confirmed to appear before this committee and other appropriate committees in this congress to provide information subject to appropriate and necessary security protections with response to your -- with respect to your responsibilities?
▶ 1:59:50Mr. Fotouhi: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:59:52Chair Capito: Do you agree that the documents and other forms of communications of information are provided to this committee and its staff and other appropriate committees in a timely manner -- manner?
▶ 2:00:04Mr. Szabo: Yes.
▶ 2:00:05Chair Capito: Do you know of any matters that -- that you have not disclose that would place you in a conflict of interest if confirmed?
▶ 2:00:13Mr. Szabo: No, senator.
▶ 2:00:14Mr. Fotouhi: No, senator.
▶ 2:00:16Chair Capito: Perfect. I would like to thank the nominees and all of my colleagues for their participation. Senators who wish to submit written questions -- and I believe there are some unanswered questions that we would need you to follow-up on, or further research. You have until 5:00 p.m. This friday to do so. The nominee responses to those questions are due back to the committee no later than 5:00 p.m. On monday, march 10, and will be submitted for the record.
▶ 2:00:44Chair Capito: With that, this hearing is adjourned. Thank you all very much and I'm going to run because I am late for the vote. P --[gavel]