▶ 0:17:45Chair Moran: Good morning, everyone. Thank you for your presence, and welcome. We need to consider 15 pieces of legislation sponsored by senators from both sides of the aisle. I'm grateful to the sponsors of the bills on today's agenda for their work and are witnesses for being here to offer their perspectives on these proposals. Before turning to our agenda items, I want to address the recent changes being considered at the v.a. In regard to workforce. I think the v.a. Needs reform.
▶ 0:18:17Chair Moran: The status quo is something this committee spends its time trying to improve on. We had hearings with veterans organizations two weeks ago, last week, in regard to how do we make things work better. If the status quo were working, we would not have spent those two weeks hearing ways the v.a. Need to improve. This is not a political statement. I'm just outlining where I think we are.
▶ 0:18:44Chair Moran: However, changes that affect v.a. Policy and personnel must be thoughtful, transparent, carried out in close coordination with this committee, with our colleagues, and with stakeholders including veterans and the vso's who represent them in washington, D.C. I'm working on legislation that would require the v.a.'s workforce planning to follow that model, because congress must play a significant role in strategically shaping v.a.
▶ 0:19:10Chair Moran: Workforce decisions to achieve the right outcomes for veterans and their families. I have personally conveyed this message to secretary collins. The secretary is committed -- has committed to me that he will testify before this committee about his plans and how he intends to eliminate waste and inefficiency and refocus resources to delivery of health care and benefits to veterans, and I look forward to being able to schedule that hearing. That includes making certain that the v.a.
▶ 0:19:38Chair Moran: Remains well staffed by a quality workforce and that efforts to write-si-- right-size the workforce are done in a responsible manner and treat the men and women who enter public service to care for veterans, many of whom themselves are veterans, with respect and gratitude. Turning to today's agenda, these bills include legislation that I've introduced, the veterans access act that would restore v.a.
▶ 0:20:05Chair Moran: Account ability act, loves live--love lives on act, building on bipartisan successes congress has achieved to expand access to care and benefits for veterans and survivors, remove barriers to lifesaving mental health care, and root out poor performance to strengthen the v.a.'s workforce. I look forward to hearing testimony on these and other bills on today's agenda.
▶ 0:20:30Chair Moran: With that, I yield to senator blumenthal -- it sounded better to call him the vice instead of ranking member. I yield to the vice chairman of the committee for opening remarks.
▶ 0:20:42Sen. Blumenthal: Whatever my title, Mr. chairman, I thank you, and thank you for having this hearing. Thank you to our witnesses today. Most of you are seasoned, experienced, and dedicated civil servants. I respect you greatly for your service. But I want to be very blunt, you are not the ones we should be hearing from today.
▶ 0:21:11Sen. Blumenthal: Seated at that dais should be secretary collins. I've expressed this view to my colleague and friend chairman moran, and I'm glad to hear that he is in formal talks with secretary collins, but he should be where you are right now.
▶ 0:21:34Sen. Blumenthal: We can ask him about the chaos and confusion, the apparent malevolent, cruel, and callous actions that have been taken against the v.a. Workforce, firing 2400 v.a. Employees already, with dire impacts on veterans. 80,000 additional v.a.
▶ 0:22:02Sen. Blumenthal: Employees that the secretary plans to cut. He has affirmed it in recent interviews, but not to this committee. He can talk to the press, but not us. And how this effort will effectively rollback the pact act that we worked so hard on a bipartisan basis to pass.
▶ 0:22:26Sen. Blumenthal: The pact act is a linchpin of modern day protection of veterans, and even as we speak, veterans are asking questions about whether the benefits and care of the pact act will be available to them because of these drastic, draconian cuts. And of course, the cancellations of hundreds of v.a.
▶ 0:22:49Sen. Blumenthal: Contracts, many of them central to patient safety, ending the research grants that in the past have proved breakthrough advancements in care for veterans and for our general population come in cardiac care, in prosthetics, in all kinds of areas where the v.a. Has been the cutting edge of research through these grants.
▶ 0:23:19Sen. Blumenthal: To respond to these kinds of really egregious actions, I will be introducing later this week the putting veterans first act, and I invite my republican colleagues as well as democratic senators to join in this action to protect veterans, protect veterans.
▶ 0:23:47Sen. Blumenthal: Number one, resend all firing -- rescind all firings, all of them, of the veteran that have good so far in any agency or branch of the federal government. Put them all back to work.
▶ 0:24:01Sen. Blumenthal: Number two, all of the employees of the veterans administration, whether or not there veterans-- with or not they are veterans, rescind their firings, put them back to work.
▶ 0:24:21Sen. Blumenthal: Number three, establish a standard for any kind of termination that occurs in the future that is based on performance, not on political rhetoric or bumper slogan musk declarations, or his algorithms, or ai formula.
▶ 0:24:41Sen. Blumenthal: Number three, make sure that veterans who have been offered this fork in the road, that they can terminate their decision to end their employment right up to the day that they would leave the government. Because there is the vast potential for unfairness.
▶ 0:25:00Sen. Blumenthal: And as to any of veterans who may be terminated at any point, give them an appeal process, an effective means of appealing any action as to them. Today's hearing may be welcome. There is good legislation on the table. You will be commenting on them. I read your testimony.
▶ 0:25:25Sen. Blumenthal: But business as usual won't get it at this moment in our history. The v.a. Is in crisis. It is literally a five-alarm fire for the v.a. This legislation may be well-intentioned and may have good effects, but it constitutes rearranging the chairs on the deck of the titanic. Literally.
▶ 0:25:54Sen. Blumenthal: That analogy is often overused, but in this instance it applies perfectly. We are talking about rearranging chairs on the deck of a sinking ship, and it isn't an iceberg that's been hit. It is a torpedo from secretary collins, donald trump, and elon musk that has hit the v.a. And is sinking it, purposefully, relentlessly, dangerously for our veterans.
▶ 0:26:25Sen. Blumenthal: And the effects are already apparent. I'm going to ask Mr. chairman that an article that appeared in "the new york times" over the we can be entered into the record.
▶ 0:26:35Chair Moran: Without objection.
▶ 0:26:37Sen. Blumenthal: This article is factual and hard-hitting. It is an account of the chaos and confusion at the v.a., confirming our urgent cries to stop the bleeding. That is a quote from the vfw commander in chief, "stop the bleeding." I commend the vso's for their leadership and objections to what is happening at the v.a., and I'm going to ask, Mr.
▶ 0:27:07Sen. Blumenthal: Chairman, that accepts from their pastor's be entered into the record.
▶ 0:27:09Chair Moran: Without objection.
▶ 0:27:11Sen. Blumenthal: Veterans have been shortchanged and systematically betrayed by these cruel cuts in staff and critical resources, resulting from the trump-musk-collins anti-vet policies. It is intentional malevolence or benign neglect. Either way, we need to stop it, that should be the purpose of our hearing today.
▶ 0:27:36Sen. Blumenthal: It is the purpose of the legislation that I will introduce to stop the bleeding and sound the alarm and make sure that we preserve veterans' benefits and care as they should be. I hope my colleagues will join me in using this hearing as an opportunity to sound the alarm.
▶ 0:28:02Sen. Blumenthal: We can pretend that the bills before us meet the moment -- we can't attend the bills before us meet the moment. The fact that this administration is actively undermining and rolling back in number of our recent bipartisan accomplishments, canceling or proposing to cancel contracts critical to implementation of the dole act or the deborah samson act or similar firing thousands of -- simply firing thousands of employees critical to the basic functioning of the government, from schedule to connect veterans to care in the
▶ 0:28:33Sen. Blumenthal: Community to claims staff process pact act claims, we cannot ago I the ongoing --we cannot ignore the ongoing ship sinking right before us. And I will press for secretary collins to come before us and answer these questions so that veterans can hear from him directly and so that members of our committee are given the respect that we deserve.
▶ 0:29:03Sen. Blumenthal: To the vso's on the second panel, thank you for being here. I hope your testimony not only takes into consideration the merits of this legislation, but also the development that are so deeply concerning. And I thank you, Mr. chairman, for this opportunity to speak in advance of the testimony.
▶ 0:29:25Chair Moran: I will now introduce the first panel. Testifying from the department of veterans affairs is mark engelbaum, assistant secretary of the office of human resources and administration, operations, security, and preparedness -- there was a longer line than I realized in your title.
▶ 0:29:42Chair Moran: He is accompanied by al montoya, deputy chief of reading officer of the veterans health administration, melissa cohen, acting cavity under secretary of policy and oversight at the veterans benefits administration, can you should britton -- kenesha britton, assistant deputy under secretary of field operations, and kevin friel, executive director of pension and fiduciary service at the veterans benefits administration. Mr.
▶ 0:30:09Chair Moran: Engelbaum, you are now recognized for five minutes.
▶ 0:30:13Mr. Engelbaum: Good morning, chairman moran, vice chairman blumenthal, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting us to present our views on bills affecting veterans benefits. As was mentioned, joining me is Mr. al montoya, deputy chief opening officer, Ms. melissa cohen, acting deputy under secretary of housing oversight, Ms. kenesha britton, assistant deputy under secretary for field operations, and Mr.
▶ 0:30:42Mr. Engelbaum: Kevin friel, executive director of pension and fiduciary service for the veterans benefits administration. We look for to working with a committee to further refine and strengthen it. First, v.a. Supports the restore accountability act of 2025 subject to amendments and availability of appropriations. The department of veterans affairs accountability overflow protection act of 2017 provided the v.a.
▶ 0:31:10Mr. Engelbaum: With additional authorities to take disciplinary actions against senior executives and adverse actions against certain v.a. Employees --
▶ 0:31:17Chair Moran: Mr. engelbaum, would you pull the mic closer --
▶ 0:31:22Mr. Engelbaum: Pardon me. That explains why it was so close to me to begin with.
▶ 0:31:27Chair Moran: It is a compliment, we want to hear what you have to say. Mr. engelbaum, I appreciate that, sir. The act provided the v.a. With additional authority to take disciplinary action against senior executives and adverse actions against certain employees. Unfortunately the v.a.
▶ 0:31:46Chair Moran: Has faced significant legal challenges in limiting the outcome and we welcome the opportunity to address concerns with the restore account ability act to mitigate litigation risk and ensure that the limitation issues of the act do not resurface. V.a. Strongly supports assuring critical care expansions to support service numbers active 2025, or the access act.
▶ 0:32:16Chair Moran: This is critical legislation designed to expand access to services for veterans and it aligns directly with the department's priorities. The bill would enhance v.a.'s ability to provide timely and effective care and provide high-quality v.a. Care in the community and in v.a.'s direct care system. V.a. Also appreciates the committee's interest and focus in helping to improve the scheduling systems. Importantly, this bill put veterans first. V.a.
▶ 0:32:42Chair Moran: Supports the draft external provider scheduling program bill but has concerns with improving the veteran access to care act and would appreciate the opportunity to work with the committee to ensure that inactive legislation does not impede the department's ability to continue ongoing efforts to enhance our scheduling capabilities. V.a. Also supports, with amendments and subject to availability of appropriations, the aviators cancers examination study act, also known as the aces act.
▶ 0:33:14Chair Moran: Representing v.a. With accuracy act, the veterans mental health quality care act, and the vetpac act of 2025, and caring survives act of 2025. The v.a. Looks forward to working with a committee to amend these bills to make sure we are providing the best possible care to veterans, their families, caregivers, and survivors. V.a.
▶ 0:33:37Chair Moran: Also supports the second amendment protection act subject to availability of appropriations, but recommends including language that would clearly exempt an individual deemed incompetent for purposes of the v.a. Fiduciary program from being adjudicated as mentally -- excuse me, as a mental defective as defined by the department of justice without this clarification, veterans were survivors deemed to meet fiduciary purposes face
▶ 0:34:09Chair Moran: Critical liability in possessing a firearm or ammunition. The v.a. Also supports ensuring that's success on campus subject to availability of appropriations, but seeks amendment to v.a. Would like to work with the committee to update the bill to allow counseling on campus to be provided by a v.a. Employee such as public contact or outreach specialist rather than a vocational rehabilitation counselor. V.a.
▶ 0:34:35Chair Moran: Generally supports the servicemembers, saves act of 2025, subject to the availability of probations. The saves act is aligned in many ways with v.a.'s substantial progress towards addressing military sexual trauma, providing support for advocacy and targeted policies and training initiatives. Nevertheless, as written, the proposed language is more limiting than the current regulation which allows the use of alternative evidence.
▶ 0:35:02Chair Moran: Additionally there are several sections of the bill that are duplicate of of the v.a.'s existing efforts. We appreciate the committee's leadership and would welcome the opportunity to collaborate on the bill. Lastly, v.a. Is still reviewing potential impacts from the love lives on act and the veterans claims act of 20 35 and is unable to evaluate these at this time. On behalf of the v.a.
▶ 0:35:23Chair Moran: The veterans reserve, thank you for your support and thank you for the opportunity to address legislation that would service our veterans and service members and families. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer any questions you and the other numbers may have. Mr. chairman, this concludes my statement.
▶ 0:35:41Chair Moran: Mr. engelbaum, thank you for your statement, your testimony, thanks for your presence. I want to talk a little bit about the love lives on act. I don't know if you want to direct this to the person to answer -- I will ask this of you, Mr. engelbaum, and you decide who to answer. Karen law prevents -- current law prevents surviving spouses to maintain that if it's if they remarry before the age of 55.
▶ 0:36:10Chair Moran: Addressing this inequity, it has come to our attention that if a surviving spouse remarries before 55, it is on them, the spouse, to inform the v.a. S they can stopo disbursing benefits to the survivor, and it takes the v.a. Months or years to stop the payments, resulting in debt on the survivor that has to be paid back. Can you expand why this takes so long for the v.a.
▶ 0:36:36Chair Moran: To fix this in your system, and why it is the survivor's fault that the v.a. Is providing them with overpayments? And what outreach is the v.a. Doing to inform survivors of current restrictions in the law if a survivor does choose to remarry before 55? Wasn't who I thought you would choose. >> thank you for the question, senator. As stated, we don't have reviews yet on the act itself.
▶ 0:37:07Chair Moran: As far as the currently existing process, when we receive notification from the spouse, we create a claim that needs to be worked --
▶ 0:37:15Chair Moran: Could you also pull the mic closer? >> thank you. We create a claim that needs to be worked and it goes into our existing inventory. We are working on processes through process improvement, potential for automation of some of these claims, as well as ability to expedite some and make sure faster.
▶ 0:37:39Chair Moran: It goes into the existing backlog and works in conjunction with the other workload that comes in that we have response ability f--responsibility for.
▶ 0:37:51Chair Moran: Let me ask a question, at least f several provisions of the love lives on act -- I know you're not prepared to testify about the act -- but several provisions have been signed into law in the last congress with the passage of the elizabeth dole act. What outreach has the v.a. Done to inform survivors of the needed education benefits they are eligible for if they do remarry?
▶ 0:38:16Chair Moran: Which office within the v.a.'s response over conducting this outreach to survivors in general so they are aware of their benefits and eligibility? We have made some changes in the law. Is anybody may actively making certain that survivors who remarry know that they are eligible for education benefits? >> sir, I'm not from the education -- I don't know what they did as far as outreach.
▶ 0:38:42Chair Moran: As far as within the dic space, when we provide them -- when they are awarded a benefit, we provide them notification that if they remarry, that they need to provide us information. We also provide them with other potential benefits they may be entitled to.
▶ 0:39:00Chair Moran: Additionally, like every eight years we provide for a survivor under age 55, we provide them a notification that whether or not to provide information, whether or not they remarry, and if they have, we will take action. If they haven't, we will wait for the next eight years.
▶ 0:39:17Chair Moran: Let me ask the question this way -- would it be true or untrue that after the passage of the illicit little -- elizabeth dole act, survivors receiving additional information from the v.a. Than they did before? >> within my department, sir --
▶ 0:39:36Chair Moran: How about within your department? >> within my department what we have on the elizabeth dole act, we are not providing any additional information --
▶ 0:39:46Chair Moran: Anybody else on your panel?
▶ 0:39:49Mr. Engelbaum: Mr. trump -- >> >chair moran: Ms. britton?
▶ 0:39:57Ms. Britton: Yes, sir, we have a comprehensive outreach program that includes a survivors element. With the survivors outreach events, we have benefit tables where they talked about education benefits as well as survivor benefits, and that does include those changes.
▶ 0:40:13Chair Moran: Thank you very much. Mr. engelbaum, I appreciate the v.a.'s support for the access act and the department's suggestions for clarifying changes that could make the bill stronger, better. Could you give me your commitment that you will provide -- the v.a. Will provide technical assistance to my office following today's hearing?
▶ 0:40:34Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, absolutely. We truly appreciate the offer to do that and we will take you up on that.
▶ 0:40:40Chair Moran: Thank you very much. Senator blumenthal.
▶ 0:40:43Sen. Blumenthal: Mr. engelbaum, can I count on you to support the putting veterans first act?
▶ 0:40:50Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, I will be happy once we see the legislation to do a the robe review along with the agency, and first and foremost, as the secretary has stated, veterans remain at the forefront of everything we do at the v.a. It is why we exist, it is why we are here --
▶ 0:41:08Sen. Blumenthal: Give me your reactions by the end of the week if I get you a draft?
▶ 0:41:15Mr. Engelbaum: I will give millie look at the draft. I cannot guarantee by the end of the week --
▶ 0:41:20Sen. Blumenthal: You are aware that the secretary has said that the v.a. Is not making decisions to illegally fire -- I emphasize "illegally fire" -- thousands of staff and implement an ongoing hiring freeze without proper analyses. Do you have those written analyses? Can you provide them to us if we ask for them? We have received no response.
▶ 0:41:47Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, absolutely. We are in the process of doing a very thorough analysis, and Mr. chairman, vice chairman, would be happy to brief the committee --
▶ 0:41:57Sen. Blumenthal: Sen. :
▶ 0:42:00Sen. Blumenthal: Senwell, we hae asked for the documents you must have documents.
▶ 0:42:03Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, what is happening right now is a lot of information has come ou in the newst on a one-off news article --
▶ 0:42:14Sen. Blumenthal: I apologize for interrupting but my time is limited. Asking for the analysis, the documents, the metrics, the methodology. There is no apparent methodology or metrics. It is by the seat of your pants. In its illegal. -- and it's illegal. I want to make clear, either way, I'm in favor of improving the v.a. Every organization can be improved.
▶ 0:42:42Sen. Blumenthal: Making it better, to quote the chairman, has to be a common objective. Not with a chainsaw. Not with a meat act. -- meat ax. With a scalpel. I see no indication there are written documents, because we have asked for them, or analyses or metrics are methodology. Can you confirm that you have them?
▶ 0:43:03Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, very clearly yes. What is happening, to be clear, 70,000 or 80,000 is a planning factor. We have just commenced our actual analyses we have an ongoing analysis that is going to take place over the next three to four months that is going to do a down to the microlevel examination of our entire structure, mission, management across the board.
▶ 0:43:30Mr. Engelbaum: That analysis is ongoing, and I reiterate, sir, I would be very happy to come in brief you in detail on what the v.a. Is doing to make sure we refocus our priorities on taking care of the veterans and righting that ship that you rightly said before is a draft. -- adrift.
▶ 0:43:49Sen. Blumenthal: So you fired in 2400 people without doing the analysis?
▶ 0:43:51Mr. Engelbaum: Sir, what happened -- I cannot go into specific details because there is litigation -- we release a 2400 folks out of 40,000 probationary employee's --
▶ 0:44:01Sen. Blumenthal: And you implement it I hiring freeze without any analysis.
▶ 0:44:06Mr. Engelbaum: In order to shape and prepare for what we need to do as an organization, we are preparing the way so that we can rightly reorganize and reform the department as it needs to be done. We still continue to hire 300,000 critical positions that we have identified. They are on the books. We continue to do our mission and focus on taking veterans -- taking care of our veterans every day.
▶ 0:44:30Sen. Blumenthal: None of what you have said just now is a plan. None of it is an analysis, a methodology, a metric. A that isnd-- and that is what we are asking you to do. How many employees have been moved or resigned from the office of general counsel?
▶ 0:44:52Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, I will have to take that for record. I don't have that.
▶ 0:44:56Sen. Blumenthal: Don't have that. How about from the equal employment opportunity staff?
▶ 0:45:02Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, I don't have any specific breakdown by office or specific employees.
▶ 0:45:11Sen. Blumenthal: How many employees have been moved from work on human resources?
▶ 0:45:14Mr. Engelbaum: I don't have a specific breakdown by independent organizations, senator.
▶ 0:45:21Sen. Blumenthal: You have 600 to 800 exempted positions currently backlogged on opm's list, correct?
▶ 0:45:32Mr. Engelbaum: I believe that is around 700 or so, sir.that is my understanding . I'm not sure about that.
▶ 0:45:40Sen. Blumenthal: And yet you are firing 2400 and you have a plan -- that is the word of the secretary -- to fire at least 80,000.
▶ 0:45:49Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, as I mentioned before, we are in the middle of a planning process. We are going to follow the science can we are going to reform this agency to make sure that it is focused on taking care of our veterans. You yourself mentioned we take a look at it. We have 403,000 employees in the department of veterans affairs. We have increased over 80,000 in the last four years. We have increased our budget by 85%. Pact act is really important, sir, we understand that --
▶ 0:46:19Sen. Blumenthal: Well, you're going to decimate the pact act if you don't have the position filled for the people who process the claims. You're are going to have inexcusable delays. You are engaged in indiscriminately decimating that workforce. I don't know why you needed the restore act if you are just willy-nilly firing people without a plan. Your approach seems to be fire them now, plan later.
▶ 0:46:47Mr. Engelbaum: Sir, despite the fact that we've increased by 80 has and a budget has increased by $85,000, our inventory backlog has increased from 275,000 to 935,000. Our claims process has increased, accuracy has decreased. We have hired about 48,000 employees for the pact act.
▶ 0:47:12Mr. Engelbaum: Sitting here today I cannot tell you exactly -- isome areas we do know where they went -- we don't know where all of these employees are we need to restore, you are right, accountability. We need to make sure that the employees we hire are doing the valuable mission they are hired to do, and part of that is putting them in the very areas you mentioned.
▶ 0:47:28Sen. Blumenthal: Failed to provide this committee the documents or analysis that we requested. You failed to do that analysis before you started firing people and freezing hiring and ending contracts, canceling them illegally. I find that response on a simple. --on except about. --I find that response on except wi-- unacceptable.
▶ 0:47:59Chair Moran: Senator tuberville.
▶ 0:48:01Sen. Tuberville: Largest health care system in the world. My god, what a job y'all got when I first got here, we hired 4000 people the trump administration fired because of cause. What did we do? We hired them back and give them backpay. This is about the veterans. This is not about the dang workers. We cherish our workers, but it's the same thing -- my job is to help people. And the same thing as yours.
▶ 0:48:32Sen. Tuberville: I am a proud cosponsor of chairman moran's restore accountability act. Have got to have good people. I know it is hard to hire people. I've dealt with it all my life. But we have to take care of our veterans we could pass a trillion dollar bill today, trillion dollars, give it to the v.a., it would be going in a matter of time, and it would not help anything. It's not about the money, it's about the right efforts of doing the right thing for veterans.
▶ 0:49:02Sen. Tuberville: I've got 500,000 veterans in my state of alabama. And it's going. -- growing. We've got good v.a.'s, we have got some that are not so good. Thank you trying to do this, but again, we got to get good people in there and I understand what we are trying to do. The v.a.'s inspector general highlighted several affairs in the judiciary program dishes fiduciary program such as millions of dollars of benefits being dispersed without oversight. Bad actors have found a way to take advantage of veterans.
▶ 0:49:32Sen. Tuberville: We have to combat fraud. I don't understand why with all this ai now that we don't have companies that can come in and stop a lot of this fraud. Mr. engelbaum, do you agree with that?
▶ 0:49:43Mr. Engelbaum: Yes, senator, one of the things we're doing in our review is looking at what technology and what systems we can actually put in place and reinvest to improve services to veterans, to improve account ability. We are hampered by some of the citizens we have. In the limited time I've been with the v.a., I've been talking to employees and folks about what they need to do the mission effectively. That is a big focus of what we need to do.
▶ 0:50:12Mr. Engelbaum: We are not trying to re-create the past and we are trying to prepare for the future. Part of that is refocusing our efforts, as you riley said, on or veterans -- as you rightly said, on her veterans and getting the focus right on that mission.
▶ 0:50:24Sen. Tuberville: I would hope that we would look at a lot of these companies -- I have had people come to me and say, "coach, we have a program right now that could save the v.a. $20 billion to $30 billion a month, but nobody will talk to us." we need to open up our eyes to this and talk to people who can help organize what the v.a. Is doing and quit doing what we did 50 years ago. This is the 21st century. My god, we got to open our eyes.
▶ 0:50:53Sen. Tuberville: I would hope that we would be more competent on looking at things of the future. Again, anything that we can do to help our veterans. Are there ways that we can improve in competency and determining the process of all this fraud that is coming in that you have seen so far? I know you haven't been there long.
▶ 0:51:17Mr. Engelbaum: Yes, senator, I can also -- but very quickly, from my perspective, absolutely. It's about focus. It's that getting our organization focused on the mission, streamlining it, making sure we are laser focused on what we need to do. Look, I love the v.a., I love our employees. I came out of retirement because I'm passionate about serving our veterans in improving veterans care. We need to do better and we can.
▶ 0:51:49Mr. Engelbaum: You talk about employees, this is a failure of us as leaders to make sure that we organize properly, we are focused, and we drive the mission to accomplish what we set out to do. Did you have comments on that?
▶ 0:52:02Mr. Friel: Part of what the ig report identified 311 individuals, we didn't have the right coverage, the right oversight. That is because we did just that, we migrated from an old legacy system to where we have more insight and control of the data, and in that migration, some of the records were lost because of bad data in the old system.
▶ 0:52:28Mr. Friel: We did review all 311 cases and found no circumstances were anybody had been taken advantage of or the funds had been misused or there was any indication of fraud.
▶ 0:52:37Sen. Tuberville: Thank you. Mr. engelbaum, if I send you the names of these companies that are calling me consistently, would you follow up on that in terms of fraud, trying to get us in the 21st century of this ai that we should be using every day, especially in the v.a.?
▶ 0:53:05Mr. Engelbaum: Absolutely.
▶ 0:53:07Chair Moran: Senator hirono.
▶ 0:53:11Sen. Hirono: Two of the normans are mine and I'm happy to say that v.a. Is in support of two of them, the veterans fraud reimbursement act can which the v.a. Says it needs more time to review even though the v.a. Did testify in support of this act in a house subcommittee. The thing is, Mr. chairman, we can have all of these bills, but if the v.a.
▶ 0:53:37Sen. Hirono: Does not have the manpower, does not have the personnel to implemented the various bills we passed, what are we doing here? I share the vice chair's concerns about what is going on with the v.a. I know that federal employees are being fired across the board in every department, not just in v.a. Thousands of federal employees are being fired, 2400 are being fired from v.a. Mr.
▶ 0:54:06Sen. Hirono: Engelbaum, were these initial firings based on any kind of an analysis of competence? Any performance analysis that led to the firing of 2400 people from the v.a.?
▶ 0:54:25Mr. Engelbaum Senator: , I can't talk to specifics on the actual analysis. One, is I mentioned early on, it is subject to litigation right now --
▶ 0:54:34Sen. Hirono: Excuse me, everybody knows that these firings were across-the-board. And of course it is going to lead to litigation. Do not use litigation as an excuse for coming to tell us that you cannot talk about it. These were across-the-board firings of people on probationary status.
▶ 0:54:53Sen. Hirono: It impacted not just the v.a., and by the way, another 80,000-plus will be getting fired, and yes, those will lead to more litigation. President trump issued something like 26 executive orders on day one of his administration.
▶ 0:55:13Sen. Hirono: I would say that there are probably lawsuits filed as to every single one of these, as expected, because many of these eo's were totally illegal, but we have an administration that doesn't give a rip about the rule of law. So do not come here and tell us you cannot talk about what the basis of these firings were. I think the fact of the matter is they were across-the-board. I don't know how the v.a.
▶ 0:55:39Sen. Hirono: Is supposed to do its job when on the one hand it is firing by the time you are through -- the administration is through, some 85,000 people from the v.a., and at the same time you are trying to hire some 300,000. On the one hand you are letting go of all of these people not based on any performance analysis, and on the other you are trying to hire 300,000 or so people.
▶ 0:56:10Sen. Hirono: Who would want to work for any of our agencies with all this chaos going on? Mr. chairman, much as I support the legislation that we have, I really wonder what is this exercise that we are undergoing here where many of these bills including the three that I introduced all in a bipartisan way, and as I mentioned earlier, this is one of the few committees where we are able to get things done in a bipartisan way, and so I would be very
▶ 0:56:42Sen. Hirono: Supportive, except we have an administration that doesn't seem to have its hands on the levers of control, because we have an administration that is continuing to sow chaos, and litigation abounds.
▶ 0:57:04Sen. Hirono: There are about 70 lawsuits that are ongoing and a numerous judges are saying to the administration you can't do that, and we have to have hearings on whether or not this administration intends to even follow court orders. So, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:57:21Chair Moran: Senator cassidy.
▶ 0:57:24Sen. Cassidy: Thank you all. First, on a lighter note, biography of each of you, Ms. britton, I see you write poetry. I don't know if we have ever had any that in anybody's brief bio that they write poetry. My mother is from south carolina and she loves poetry, so I feel a connection.
▶ 0:57:48Sen. Cassidy: Commenting on the vetpac act, as a member of the senate it is difficult to have an independent analysis of what is being done in the veterans administration. Senator hirono and I have entered this as a response as an invitation, if you will, of what medpac do, giving congress a lot of insights into how medicare and medicaid work. It is patterned after those.
▶ 0:58:14Sen. Cassidy: In your testimony you say that the commission could impede the v.a.'s ability to respond quickly to address veterans' needs if it is requested information or conducting investigations while the v.a. Is attempting to respond to a new problem. Can you give me an example of how -- could you give me this information on how it could impact clinical care the veteran --clinical care of a veteran? >> thanks so much for that question.
▶ 0:58:42Sen. Cassidy: A great example would be the quadrennial review process going on right now, which takes a look at all of our centers across the country and determines --
▶ 0:58:50Sen. Cassidy: Does the quadrennial review in rep patient care --interrupt patient care? >> it goes in conjunction with it.
▶ 0:58:59Sen. Cassidy: The quadrennial review was every four years. Let me ask, it doesn't -- what I just heard, does not interrupt your capacity to address the veterans health care need, so why would an ongoing review looking at specific issues such as medpac disrupt patient care? I don't follow your criticism. You gave me quadrennial review, which is more comprehensive.
▶ 0:59:29Mr. Montoya: I think, bottom line, we do support --
▶ 0:59:34Sen. Cassidy: I was under the impression he thought it might not.
▶ 0:59:37Mr. Montoya: We do support this bill. One of the things we have concerns on is there is a number of other initiatives overlapping with it, so we want to make sure that doesn't interfere at all.
▶ 0:59:49Sen. Cassidy: In our vision, at least, we would be including issues not included in the quadrennial review. For example, the training of health care providers, which is not in the quadrennial review. So I'm glad you like it. When you get the answer you want, you shut up. I yield. [laughter]
▶ 1:00:24Sen. Hassan: Thank you, Mr. chair, thanks to you and senator blumenthal for holding this hearing. Morgan to all of our witnesses. Mr. engelbaum, thank you for testifying today. I kathy give a shout-out to al montoya, who led the manchester v.a. With distention.
▶ 1:00:48Sen. Hassan: This hearing is about legislation, and I want to talk about the pending bills before us, but I, too, want to talk about some of the trump administration's recent actions and how they have impacted the manchester v.a. And the system in general, because look, as you were discussing fraud, I couldn't help but say,, couldn't help but say, gee, the trump administration fired inspector general, the guy in charge of rooting out fraud. As they fired inspector general's across government.
▶ 1:01:19Sen. Hassan: There are 24 arbitrary firings just because people were probationary employees at the v.a., not because there was any analysis of the work they did or why they were hired to do what they did. I talked to a doc from the manchester v.a. Yesterday morning, a know what she had to do in the middle of a really chaotic week in the veterans administration? She had to send elon musk a list of the things she did that week. Talk about bureaucracy.
▶ 1:01:50Sen. Hassan: So there are a lot of reasons we are concerned. I wanted go down on those with you, -- I want to drill down on those with you, Mr. engelbaum, and then get into one piece of legislation. The pact act became law in 2022 and expanded eligibility for care for veterans who were exposed to toxins. More than 200,000 veterans have been enrolled in v.a. Care under the pact act and more than 2.3 million pact act-related benefit claims have been submitted. The v.a.
▶ 1:02:20Sen. Hassan: Hired more than 60,000 new employees to increase to meet the increased demand for benefits. Since president trump has taken office, the v.a. Has fired 2400 employees and is planning to fire 80,000 more. Not only does this contradict the clear intent of congress, it really does a disservice to our veterans. When you fire v.a. Employees, veterans suffer. You fire front desk staff, veterans cannot schedule appointments.
▶ 1:02:51Sen. Hassan: If you fire benefits administration employees, claims get delayed. Mr. engelbaum, can you guarantee that if the v.a. Fire thousands more employees, it will not take longer for veterans to get appointments and receive care?
▶ 1:03:03Mr. Engelbaum: Ma'am, senator, thank you. That is absolutely our objective.
▶ 1:03:09Sen. Hassan: Can you guarantee it? Are you confident that firing people with an arbitrary number out there is going to -- you are not quit impacted their care?-- not going to impact their care?
▶ 1:03:22Mr. Engelbaum: Yes, thank you, senator hassan. We do not have an arbitrary number, as I was try to explain. We have detailed by the four-month process we are undergoing and reviewing the cleat structure in order to do what you are saying to make sure that all of our resources are focused on the veteran and their care.
▶ 1:03:39Sen. Hassan: So I'm going to hold you to this, you are guaranteeing that after you fire tens of thousands of employees, it will not take longer for veterans to get appointments and receive care. Let's go to can you guarantee that if the v.a. Fire thousands more employees, hospitals and equipment, the hospitals in the equipment will remain clean and safe, yes or no?
▶ 1:04:03Mr. Engelbaum: Senator, what I'm guaranteeing is a detailed, methodical, much-needed review of our structure to ensure that our manpower and resources are focused on veterans and their care.
▶ 1:04:14Sen. Hassan: So you are not going to guarantee that. Can you guarantee that if the v.a. Fire thousands more employees, veterans claims going to be delayed?
▶ 1:04:22Mr. Engelbaum: What I guarantee, we will do a detailed, thoughtful review and focus our efforts on improving our service --
▶ 1:04:30Sen. Hassan: But that is not a guarantee because you don't know what is going to happen, but you are naming the number of employees you are going to reduce. We are going to watch what you are doing, and I will echo senator blumenthal's request for the written plan, the metrics you are using, and the reasons you think that this kind of mass firing is going to result in improved efficiency.
▶ 1:04:53Sen. Hassan: As you mauy nkkow, new hampshire does not have a full-service v.a. Hospital. In 2023 then-candidate trump visited new have to and promised state-of-the-art v.a. Hospital, saying we would no longer be without a full-service facility f now it seems if you are building a new full-service hospital, you will have to hire people to provide new services. Is the v.a.
▶ 1:05:19Sen. Hassan: Going to hire contractors and a place to build and work in the new facility president trump promised granite staters, or is the time to cut resources and hope we don't notice?
▶ 1:05:32Mr. Engelbaum: The plan, senator, is to ensure we focus our resources as much as we can on the direct care of the veterans. We have grown exponentially over the past decade or more can we have increased our budget immensely --
▶ 1:05:45Sen. Hassan: Right, because we helping a lot more veterans, and we have to stretch to reach that goal commanders were to be done --to reach that goal, and there is work to be done. I'm with my colleagues, this has been a bipartisan effort, we want the best care possible and the best services possible, and we have work to do. We have to invest in new systems, which, by the way, it has not always been easy to get bipartisan support throughout the federal government to do that.
▶ 1:06:11Sen. Hassan: But being arbitrary, and as the head of vfw said last week, using a meat cleaver instead of a scalpel is not the way to do this. I'm going to hold the president to his promise for a new full- service v.a.
▶ 1:06:26Sen. Hassan: Center in new hampshire, I'm going to insist that it be properly staffed, and I'm looking forward to seeing written documentation and analysis that indicates that things will be better off after you take staffing back to 2019 levels in spite of the new people we are helping with the pact act. I will be looking for that analysis can be because right now it is not adding up. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:06:54Chair Moran: Senator king.
▶ 1:06:58Sen. King: I was struck when the senator cassidy mission poetry, so I asked chatgpt to write a poem about firings at the v.a. "in the land where the ego probably sort shadow cap across the claims as witnesses spoke of recent pains the halls once filled with earnest care no record with the vacant air, for hands that heal and hearts that served found futures tossed, their
▶ 1:07:30Sen. King: Paths unnerved the veterans with stories deep, the guardians on their solace steep, they wondered if the promises made were fading like the evening shade. What of honor, what of trust, when noble missions turn to dust? Yet in the hearts were courage burns, the spirit of the warrior urines. Fo-- warrior yearns. Remind us young and old that some truths are worth more than gold.
▶ 1:07:59Sen. King: So raise a glass to those who stood through every field through fire and blood command may be fined in days ahead the wisdom to restore what's fled." pretty amazing, and I think it captures what is going on here. By the way, firing 80,000 people will reduce the v.a. Budget by 1.2%. I think we are to keep that in mind, because people think we are cutting the budget and saving a lot of money, 1.2%. This is performance.
▶ 1:08:30Sen. King: This is an policy. -- isn't policy. And it is 8000 people -- the memo said to return to our 2019 staff, 80,000 people. I don't know how anybody with a straight face say you will cut that many people and provide the same level of services. He doesn't compute. -- it doesn't compute.
▶ 1:08:58Sen. King: The second piece I want to inquire about and I will ask you this question, what about these contracts? I saw the little video of the secretary the other day proudly saying we have illuminated 600 contracts -- eliminated 600 contracts and we are going to save all this money. I want to know what the contracts are, and we have been asking for a week, and we are getting no answers. What are those 585 contracts for?
▶ 1:09:22Sen. King: Because I fear that they are for mental health counselors, radiology technicians, maintenance. Those contracts are for something. It is an insult to this committee and to the united states senate that we have no transparency whatsoever on what these contracts are. That is a pretty simple ask. Will you take that question back, Mr. engelbaum?
▶ 1:09:48Mr. Engelbaum Senator: , it would be my pleasure. I don't have information on specific contracts, but I will take the back.
▶ 1:09:57Sen. King: Well, somebody knows -- I don't expect you to know, but somebody knows what the contracts are because they made a decision to cut them, and the information should be shared with this committee. It is hard for me to understand what's going on here except a motivation to show that we are cutting the workforce for relatively small returns in terms of the overall budget of the agency.
▶ 1:10:25Sen. King: I thank you use the term meat cleaver. The operative term is chainsaw. That is what that grinning guy is using, a chainsaw, instead of a thoughtful process. I would like to see, as has already been requested, what the plan is for these 82,000 people. How are you going to approach that? Who is going to do it? What is the criteria? Because it's hard for me to believe -- I understand -- you have said we have grown, for s ure.
▶ 1:10:57Sen. King: But seven new bills have been passed with regard to veterans' benefits's since 2019, the biggest being the pact act, which requires a lot of people to administer. I don't know how you're going to resolve those kinds of issues. So I apologize, Mr. chairman, for not speaking to these bills, but these people have had the good luck to be here today. Thank you for your testimony, and we look forward to working with you on these bills.
▶ 1:11:28Sen. King: This is a very bipartisan committee. The pact act cast with the bipartisan majorities in both houses. We want to work on those things, but we need some facts. And I, for one, believe that the agency ought to be providing information.
▶ 1:11:45Mr. Engelbaum: Thank you, senator, and as I stated previously, it would be my pleasure to brief you and the committee on the plan and the thoughtful review undergoing right to get at what the ultimate number will be and what we should look like in the future to better serve our veterans.
▶ 1:12:03Sen. King: Mr. chairman, I will submit my poem for the record. >> thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. engelbaum, is the v.a. Too bureaucratic?
▶ 1:12:17Mr. Engelbaum: I think federal government as a whole is the definition of bureaucracy. >> obviously places where we can create efficiencies and deliver services to veterans better.
▶ 1:12:28Mr. Engelbaum: There absolutely argument any large organization, especially -- look, I'm dedicated to the mission of our veterans, but I know -- after speaking with a lot of folks, many of them employees, veterans, there is a lot of bureaucracy there.
▶ 1:12:45Mr. Engelbaum: We can do better, we will do better can we need to flatline our management and we need to flatline organizations, we need to see my the system, we need system that can do what -- we need to streamline the system, we need system that can do what we need them to do. More and more money is not the answer. Not saying we will not put the money where we need them, but it is not the answer.
▶ 1:13:06Sen. Banks: I agree. How with the restore v.a. Accountability act improve the workforce by giving supervisors more authority?
▶ 1:13:14Mr. Engelbaum: There is nothing more disheartening to our workers themselves than having substandard employees around them. There is nothing, as everybody knows, that brings down an organization whereby having employees that don't do what they need to do and you are unable to remove them, take this whenever action --take disciplinary action, or they become open for that they continue to exist.
▶ 1:13:42Mr. Engelbaum: When we rely more heavily on our top performers in middle performance -- get me wrong, we have so many dedicated employees of the v.a., dedicated veterans, spouses, you name it, the vast majority are hard-working folks that want to do well, but we have folks that don't, and there's nothing that destroys an organization more. Those employees working next to them know who they are. It's a morale issue, it's a performance issue, it is a workload issue. And we want to make sure that we have due process.
▶ 1:14:11Mr. Engelbaum: That is really, really important. But we can't stymie leadership and management. I always remind people, managers are part of that. They are employees, too. You need to hold managers accountable. It is not an us v. It is not an us vs. Them question. It is us as asenator moran has n the agenda to improve community providers.
▶ 1:14:42Mr. Engelbaum: Senator hassan has legislation to improve internal dha can you talk about how those work together and what improvements with veterans trying to get those bills enacted.
▶ 1:14:58Mr. Engelbaum: >> I reflect on my time at three different stations as well as my most recent experience in the working is it reduces the amount of time it takes for a veteran to get an appointment scheduled in the community. Without external provider scheduling it takes roughly 30 minutes for a veteran to get scheduled whereas with eps it is about seven minutes for that to happen.
▶ 1:15:23Mr. Engelbaum: It allows all of our scheduling staff to be more efficient as they are looking at the scheduling grids for other positions in the community. It really helps out in the two work together in collaboration to make sure they are providing the care. >> what problems are you having disciplining veteran benefits claim agents today without any legal authority? >> thank you for that question.
▶ 1:15:55Mr. Engelbaum: One of the concerns we have is you have heard the claim sharks and all of that. Right now the only authority we have is from the office of general counsel. We have no other ramifications outside of that.
▶ 1:16:16Mr. Engelbaum: The ability to prosecute people and take action against people who are basically frogging our veterans -- what are the most common rules that agents or attorneys break? >> one of the major rules is for an initial claim there should not charged.
▶ 1:16:45Mr. Engelbaum: We have these agencies that promise veterans we will help you get a good rating than they charge you on the back end where they take a part of the retroactive payment, part of the changes over the course of the period of time and they take money from our veterans. Who are entitled to that. >> that seems gross and I hope we can do something to crackdown on it. >> thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:17:16Mr. Engelbaum: >> in the spirit of senator king I was trying to write a haiku but I cannot get to the last line. The other area where senator king was talking about one of the areas that has been identified is the natural -- the national center for ptsd.
▶ 1:17:41Mr. Engelbaum: For us who have ptsd this is extremely important because it is an evolving field of research that can help not just us but save us money in the long run and find better treatments for ptsd that are more effective and also cheaper. A contract that was just terminated recently and this is to Mr. montoya, the v.a.
▶ 1:18:02Mr. Engelbaum: Said changes would not negatively affect veteran care or benefits and they were identified through a deliberative multilevel review. I am concerned these terminations will negatively impact their care specifically. Can you explain what safeguards you have in place and how you can restore contracts that were incorrectly terminated.
▶ 1:18:26Mr. Engelbaum: If it is identified through deliberate of multilevel review I have no idea how the natural center for pst 80 -- how that came under the purview of being cut.
▶ 1:18:39Mr. Montaya: Thank you for that question. They have the natural center for ptsd in vermont. There is a deliberate process of looking at the contract review. There is also a process for us to reverse those as have been done in many cases. I would be happy to look at that particular contract you are asking about and see what it entails.
▶ 1:19:13Sen. Gallego: Another contract supports the ability to carry out under the bipartisan act. I lived next to a burn pit for almost one month. The men I served with, some of them have died from toxic exposure, some from very rare cancers at young ages. I'm very concerned some of those reductions when we are trying to finally help these men and women will be impacted and will be sliding backwards.
▶ 1:19:42Sen. Gallego: Since the bill was signed to law nearly 60,000 veterans have viable claims. Mr. engelbaum can you please explain how the cancellation of this contract won't impact those benefits who qualify for the pact act benefits and health care. There are still more men than women jumping onto this -- they're still more men and women jumping onto this.
▶ 1:20:03Mr. Engelbaum: Unfortunately I cannot address that specific contract. I am happy to take that back. As stated, one of the things it is not that we stopped doing something. I do not know if we have a contractor doing something for us we could do internally. There are different things that went into deliberations. We are committed to taking care of our veterans. We will take a look at it that we will tap the focus on our veterans.
▶ 1:20:32Sen. Gallego: My concern is we are treating the v.a. Much like we treat other parts of the government where there needs to be a certain sensitivity. Right now I'm hearing reports of men and women having to do their treatments and their ptsd therapy in cubicles, open air cubicles where essentially some of the therapists are told to get white noise and put ambient music in the background while next door someone could be listening to these veterans
▶ 1:21:05Sen. Gallego: Going through the therapy sessions. Someone who has therapy, you have to expose yourself and let yourself go in order for you to start real therapy. It is not going to be a good environment when these men and women feel like they are not going to have a safe and secure environment to talk about what happens and what they are feeling if they are being forced to speak in this open-air cubicle and that is the problem. You force people back to the office but there's not enough space for these men.
▶ 1:21:36Sen. Gallego: Have you heard of this problem? I am hearing about this across the country now.
▶ 1:21:40Mr. Engelbaum: If there are any specific issues I am happy to look at them as far as our veterans care. As far as back to the office we have a detailed plan in place. We are making sure there are extensions. What we do know is our clinical providers have been showing up day in and day out for years. Mostly the support staff, the administration, they have not been.
▶ 1:22:09Mr. Engelbaum: There were some jobs that lend themselves to being remote, but the vast majority we work better together. We work better together and we collaborate and we are part of a team and we develop just like been part of the army, you are part of a mission. We firmly believe we are more effective and more efficient and better for the most part when we work together and we call people back in. Our providers are there. We hope for them to be there to support them.
▶ 1:22:37Sen. Gallego: I just worry about a situation where you're putting some of these men and women in a compromised situation because we are trying to create a policy that might have some merit but is then creating the system where it is not conducive to ptsd therapy. We will take that into consideration. I yield back.
▶ 1:22:57Chair Moran: Senator sanders?
▶ 1:23:01Sen. Sanders: Mr. chairman, my understanding is that in the fourth quarter of 2024 there were over 30,000 vacancies at the v.a., including 3400 schedulers, 1200 custodians from 1800 social workers, 2400 doctors, 6300 registered nurses. I have heard Mr.
▶ 1:23:28Sen. Sanders: Engelbaum say a propylene enough he wants to do a deep -- appropriately enough he wants to do a detailed review of the process. You think arbitrarily laying off 2500 workers and planning to lay off another 83,000 is a detailed and thoughtful review?
▶ 1:23:47Mr. Engelbaum: Thank you. As mentioned, the initial thing that hit the news about the planning factor is to lead and divorced people to make hard decisions and recommendations. We are in the process. I will brief the committee at your disposal on how we are doing that over the next three to four months and what we will do to make sure.
▶ 1:24:10Sen. Sanders: If we already have -- in white river junction we have a very well-functioning v.a. I've around the state and I talked to veterans and they are proud of what is going on there. I don't think any veteran in this country thinks it makes sense at a time when we already have a significant shortage of workers to arbitrarily lay off 2500 or lay off another 23,000.
▶ 1:24:40Sen. Sanders: Mr. chairman, as I think you are aware -- Mr. chairman? The vfw veterans of foreign wars is stated the other day part of what the statement was. We now call upon v.a.
▶ 1:25:01Sen. Sanders: To reconsider its planned reduction of 83,000 employees and thoroughly review any proposed cuts prior to rolling out further announcements. Mr. chairman, I will introduce a resolution supporting the vfw. I will hope you can support that. They are saying is it makes common sense to make. If you want to make the v.a. More efficient, you are right.
▶ 1:25:30Sen. Sanders: But do it in an intelligent plan with the cooperation of the veterans organizations who are on the ground. Better can tell you you have people who are not working well? To arbitrarily say we will layoff 83,000 people, that makes sense to nobody. I am more provincial point of view, Mr. chairman I will hope we can have bipartisan support here.
▶ 1:26:01Sen. Sanders: We are simply saying let's go forward in a detailed and thoughtful process. Do you believe that health care is right for every veteran in this country?
▶ 1:26:19Mr. Engelbaum: Absolutely.
▶ 1:26:23Sen. Sanders: I agree with you. Do you think we should do a better job in reaching -- one of the problems I've been working on for years is letting veterans know about the benefits in which they are legally entitled. I'm sure we do as good a job is that as we should. Do you think we should do a better job in that area?
▶ 1:26:46Mr. Engelbaum: It is very important to do so. I know we've made strides. Do you want to address that? I think we can always do better.
▶ 1:26:57Sen. Sanders: I don't have a lot of time. Doing a town meeting in bennington, vermont a number of years ago about the prescription drug benefits the veterans are entitled to, a lot of veterans do not even know that.
▶ 1:27:13Sen. Sanders: My point is if you believe every veteran is entitled to the health care we have provided them, if you can do aggressive outreach you will need more staff, not less to take care of our veterans.
▶ 1:27:30Sen. Sanders: On a provincial note we are on the list, whatever that may mean in vermont to get two new state-of-the-art -- are you familiar with that?
▶ 1:27:52Mr. Montoya: Very much so.
▶ 1:27:54Sen. Sanders: Can you help me out. We have two on the list. One in shipman county, one in the southern part of the state. Can you give me a status part?
▶ 1:28:11Mr. Montoya: I don't have it but I will get it for the record and I will talk with your staff members. I think this is very important for our veterans in vermont and new hampshire to get the care. The last I have on that is they were going through the acquisition process but I want to be detailed in my response.
▶ 1:28:26Sen. Sanders: Did you get back to me on that?
▶ 1:28:29Mr. Montoya: 100%.
▶ 1:28:31Sen. Sanders: This is not complicated. I don't think there's anybody who thinks there is not too much bureaucracy at the v.a. Everyone wants to make it more efficient and do what is best for veterans. We all want veterans to take advantage of the programs congress has passed. You do not do it by arbitrarily laying off tens of thousands. You do it by working with veterans organizations, by working with this committee.
▶ 1:29:02Sen. Sanders: Is there anything I said you disagree with?
▶ 1:29:03Mr. Engelbaum: No. I am looking forward to meeting with the committee and I met some of the representatives behind me and invited them for conversations I look forward to discussions to better support our veterans.
▶ 1:29:16Chair Moran: Senator blumenthal has another follow-up which I will recognize and that I will have my follow-up and then we will change panels. We are going to recess at that point in time so senator blumenthal and I can hear the witnesses for the second panel. We have an 11:45 vote so we will run over and restart. Senator blumenthal?
▶ 1:29:42Sen. Blumenthal: Mr. engelbaum, I want to expand on the number given to you by senator sanders as of the end of fiscal year 2024. There were 36,000 vacancies in veterans health care. There were 2751 in the vba.
▶ 1:30:09Sen. Blumenthal: Those health care positions were 1800 social workers, 693 psychologists 2040 292 doctors, 6300 registered nurses, 3400 health care schedulers, and 1200 custodians. Every single one of those positions vital to veterans health care.
▶ 1:30:41Sen. Blumenthal: I would suggest respectfully that rather than focusing on how to fire v.a. Health care workers , which is what the restore act looks to do and what elon musk and donald trump are doing through secretary collins, that you would be better off trying to figure out how to fill those positions.
▶ 1:31:05Sen. Blumenthal: What you're doing right now is going to discourage and deter anybody who wants to be in the health care professional field from joining the v.a.. Why would they your focus is on firing them? Let me also give you an opportunity to correct the record.
▶ 1:31:29Sen. Blumenthal: I think you contended that vba claims processing times have gone up. That is untrue. The average day to complete a pre-pact act claim were 166. The average number of days to complete a claim in january 2025 after the passage of the pack at his 148.
▶ 1:32:00Sen. Blumenthal: -- of the pack at his -- of the pact act is 148. You say you can do better, you were doing better, and now you will do worse. To adopt the analogy I had before, you are sinking the ship, basically. We are talking about rearranging chairs on the deck of that sinking ship.
▶ 1:32:30Sen. Blumenthal: Call of titanic or whatever you wish. We do need bipartisan cooperation to stop the bleeding is the vfw commander-in-chief told us. Finally I want to say I was remiss in specifically mentioning before that we have worked with the professionals who are before us and I know you intend to do good things with eva. -- with the va.
▶ 1:33:01Sen. Blumenthal: I worked with Mr. montoya in connecticut. We want to empower you. I know it is difficult. There are thousands and thousands of dedicated va workers who deserve to be elevated, not trashed and denigrated as elon musk and donald trump are doing. Our veterans are not suckers, they are our heroes. I thank you.
▶ 1:33:28Chair Moran: Thank you. A couple of thoughts and a question from me. Senator blumenthal, I don't think he was diminishing the value of restoring but I want to respond. The restoring accountability act is about providing the best care opportunities for veterans.
▶ 1:33:54Chair Moran: I think it has a side benefit that it is better to work in a place in which you do not allow people who are misbehaving to commit fraud and negligence to the patients to continue to work there or move them to another position as eva has done. I am committed to try to make sure restore act is something we accomplish that is overwhelmingly supported in a bipartisan way.
▶ 1:34:20Chair Moran: In the past it ran into legal and regulatory challenges and we need to work to make sure we get the law all right. Eliminating people at any agency that misbehave is a good thing for the customers they serve at a good thing for the people they work with. A couple of my colleagues, both republican and democrat colleagues mentioned the use of the inspector general.
▶ 1:34:48Chair Moran: I would add for the second time my public voice to the importance of restoring and inspector general to the department of veterans affairs and as we try to figure out how to right size the v.a., the inspector general has been our ally in finding ways to do things better or things that happen at the v.a. That make no sense or are inefficient in the inspector general is hugely important to the efforts you indicate you are trying to accomplish.
▶ 1:35:18Chair Moran: Let me just highlight again the value of the inspector general. And we also -- we the majority, but we have requested information from the department of veterans affairs and some of it has been answered and other components of our inquiries, some of the things you heard from the democratic side of our committee, we are asking for
▶ 1:35:48Chair Moran: That kind of information and I highlight for you to return to the v.a. To encourage the entering of members of congress's questions. That only reiterates my view that this committee will and should have significant opportunities to participate in the decision-making process about workforce at the v.a. Finally, Mr.
▶ 1:36:11Chair Moran: Engelbaum, you've tried several times to finish a sentence that I think is important and you think it is important because you tried to sate a number of times. It has to do with the 83,000 or the 83,000. I think you have tried to explain that is not necessarily the goal. My guess is -- that was certainly reported in the press and maybe was in a memo at the v.a. So I'm not discounting it. Somebody may have come up with this number.
▶ 1:36:41Chair Moran: What is your goal in regard to removal -- is it conceivable you would have the analysis done at the v.a. And determine in certain areas you need more employees, not less? Is the goal to figure out how to get rid of 80,000 people or is it a different goal?
▶ 1:36:58Mr. Engelbaum: It is the former. We want to be efficient and we want to be lean. As I was try to get across, you have to start with something when you start with the planning process. We are talking about 15% is what we are looking about when you talk about over 470,000. I think the secretary will be very clear. We will do our review.
▶ 1:37:23Mr. Engelbaum: We will let the process fallout and ultimately he will make a decision what the final number will be based upon that analysis we are conducting. As you rightly said we probably should plus up in other areas and takedown and other areas. We will also look at what we will stop doing as far as specific mission and flatlining bureaucracies. Numerous things we want to take a look at.
▶ 1:37:47Mr. Engelbaum: If you don't start with a goal or start with some sort of planning factor, aggressive planning factor to force people to think outside of the box and come up with options then you will go nowhere. That is what that is, that coal and planning factor enables us to start our in-depth analysis and bottom-up review we are conducting with the entirety of the vha and of command in order to arrive at a recommendation for the secretary later on.
▶ 1:38:12Chair Moran: I wanted to give you the opportunity to finish your paragraph. I have indicated my concern with a number. The goal ought not to be a number, the goal ought to be to determine what the mission is and how many people in the workforce intends to accomplish that mission in an effective and efficient way. That I think members of this committee are seemingly willing to help the v.a. Accomplish.
▶ 1:38:43Chair Moran: The 80,000 number has created uncertainty and difficulty and criticism that comes from those statements. We look forward to answers to our questions and we look forward to working to figure out how to right size the department of veterans affairs but not in an arbitrary way. Thank you if you report that your superiors.
▶ 1:39:13Chair Moran: If you would report that your colleagues and see about getting answers to our previous questions. Thank you very much. We will recess so senator blumenthal and I can walk across the street and vote. The second panel, you are welcome to stay in your seats so you are ready when we come back so you'll be ready to take your chairs. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you for your presence.
▶ 2:04:40Chair Moran: Thank you for your patience. The committee will come back to order. I want to ask unanimous consent for the veteran second amendment protection act from veterans of foreign wars of the united states, the national rights network, vietnam network of america, gone overs of america. Firearms accountability counsel, mac action, association of american citizens and turning point action.
▶ 2:05:13Chair Moran: This must be the appropriate time to ask that request. It is so ordered. I know welcome our second panel of witnesses to the table. Testifying is cole lyle -- ashland hancock lumen -- ashlynne haycock-lohmann and patrick murray, director of national services of the veterans of foreign wars of the united states.
▶ 2:05:41Chair Moran: Thank you for your continued education of our committee and I yield now to Mr. lyle.
▶ 2:05:47Mr. Lyle: Thank you chairman warren, distinguished members of the committee. On behalf of the national commander and more than 1.6 million dues paying members of the american legion we thank you for the opportunity to offer testimony for the record. In good faith we cannot consider these proposals today without considering the implementation elephant in the room considering the cost and staff demand with recent personnel actions.
▶ 2:06:16Mr. Lyle: This hearing comes at a time of uncertainty and widespread change. The american legion has never shied away from the responsibility of being a voice for veterans and we will not start now. To veterans listening, the legion exists for you. The v.a. Exists for you and we will continue to advocate for an effective v.a. On your behalf.
▶ 2:06:37Mr. Lyle: On march 6, 2025, commander lacoursiere these to statement expressing the sentiment and inviting veterans to share how these changes are impacting their lives. Joining -- during the joint session of the senate and house veterans affairs committee the american legion's leadership pledged to informed members -- they are the result of collaboration. We all have different jobs but the same goal.
▶ 2:07:08Mr. Lyle: To improve the lives of service members, veterans, their families. All of these bills are worthy of continued discussion but the big challenge will be forecasting how the implementation will be successful. The recent policy and personnel actions make it more important than ever for veteran service agents to be part of the legislation of process we look forward to this committee's inclusion of legionnaires voices. The american legion has spoken with secretary collins, senior v.a.
▶ 2:07:33Mr. Lyle: Personnel common legionnaires on the ground about the need for more transparency the methodology of these changes and plans to mitigate impacts. We believe the voice of our membership can provide crucial feedback to ensure no veteran goes without the care they need when they need it to provide veterans the benefits they earned, keep veterans off the street, and keep them from spiraling into a critical mass of despair that drives them to make an irreversible decision. This is the american legion's number one priority for a reason.
▶ 2:08:05Mr. Lyle: The values and habits the military instills do not disappear when we transition out. A percent of companies are led by ceos. Employing 5 million americans. 25% of federal employees of veterans with more than half a million employed by agencies around the world. According to the department of labor veterans make up 10% of emergency medical technicians, 19% of firefighters, 25% of police officers.
▶ 2:08:36Mr. Lyle: Veterans have shown a willingness to aid their time and money to a disaster relief and other committee-based programs. Whether in public service, the private sector, or volunteerism, veterans display unwavering dedication to their families and the country long after they leave the service.
▶ 2:08:53Mr. Lyle: Cultivated during service, veterans unique set of skills pays tangible dividends to the american people but perhaps more importantly service members experience shared adversity in pursuit of common goals from the moment they arrive at boot camp to the day they get out, learning to work together regardless of race or socioeconomic background. They are bound together by a esprit de corps that sheds preconceived notions and biases forcing them to work together as a team.
▶ 2:09:23Mr. Lyle: Without the ability to work together the U.S. military would crumble. Government leaders would do well to emulate this mentality, honoring the services of our nations veterans. America will undoubtedly be better for it. Chairman warren, ranking member blumenthal -- chairman moran, ranking member blumenthal, more detailed responses can be found in my written testimony.
▶ 2:09:45Chair Moran: Is haycock-lohmann, you are recognized?
▶ 2:09:50Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Thank you. The tragedy assistance program for survivors is grateful for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of more than 120,000 surviving families. We strongly support the act and we thank chairman moran and senator warnock in our 22 original cosponsors for introducing one of our top legislative priorities. Under current law surviving spouses must bit late into the age of 55 to remarry or they lose most of their benefits.
▶ 2:10:20Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: The average age of a surviving spouse in this era is between 25 and 35 years old, forcing them to remarry and retain their benefits. Just over 500,000 surviving spouses receive benefits from the v.a. But barely 35,000 are under the age of 55, that is less than 7%. Of those 35,000 surviving spouses only 5% of them have chosen to legally remarry. This is more than just a numbers issue.
▶ 2:10:49Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: The love goes on act is about keeping our promise to our veterans. The service member takes the oath of office they are making the ultimate commitment, signing a black check with their very life. In return our government makes an unbreakable promise that if something happens to them do that service their spouse and children will be taken care of. It was never a caveat the commitment would end. Honor and sacrifice do not come with an expiration date and neither should our nation support.
▶ 2:11:21Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: This is deeply personal to every single widow and widower. This impact survivors like marcy from kansas, who was waiting to remarry but was expelled from her church for living with her fiance, forcing her to choose between financial stability and rebuilding her life.
▶ 2:11:39Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: This impact survivors like keenan from louisiana who did remarry because she wanted her five children to benefit and she chose love over money but is now viewed as her children's fiduciary, not their parent, in the eyes of the law. This impact survivors like rebecca from north carolina who never had the chance to start a family with a rate husband -- with her late husband but chose to remarry because the sanctity of marriage matter to her.
▶ 2:12:06Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: This matters to survivors like linda who married after 55 and was allowed to keep her benefits. These are surviving spouses who have lived through the loss of their soulmate and are choosing a chance at happiness. They are more than just data points. All they're asking for is the right to choose how they move forward and picked up the broken pieces of their lives. Taps strongly supports the caring for survivors act.
▶ 2:12:34Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Raising to 55% of the common saint rate paid will increase the icy by an average of $454 per month and provide long-overdue parity with other federal survivor benefits. Where than half a million survivors -- the current monthly base rate is $1653.
▶ 2:12:58Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: As a surviving spouse states, increasing would allow me to afford groceries and childcare, medical expenses, and home and car maintenance by trying to survive. It is time we fix this inequity. Our surviving families should not be receiving less than their civilian counterparts. Taps strongly supports the senator claims act and thank senator boseman his leadership on this issue.
▶ 2:13:24Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Since the passage of the pact act taps has seen an influx of predatory claims targeting survivors. Increased regulatory oversight is crucial to ensuring these survivors receive adequate representation throughout the v.a. Process. Taps is not an accredited veteran organization because current organizations requires vso to serve any veteran or survivor.
▶ 2:13:52Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Taps mission is dedicated to supporting all of those who lost their loved ones due to military service and would be honored to become accredited and make the process easier. Taps has never and will never charge for our services. As the leading voice for the families who died as a result of illness connected to toxic exposure, taps lead efforts to pass the bipartisan pact act but we know the work is far from done.
▶ 2:14:21Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: We thank senator cotton and kelly for introducing this critical legislation to reduce the prevalence of mortality in cancer in the military aviation community. Taps would like to express our support we thank you for your leadership on both of these important issues. Taps appreciates the opportunity to testify and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 2:14:46Chair Moran: Thank you very much. Mr. murray.
▶ 2:14:53Sen. Murray: On behalf of the vfw and eggs every, I thank you for speaking on the subject. The vfw agrees the secretary should have the ability to remove bad employees from their roles. We do not want to see the authority used arbitrarily remove employees as a cost-cutting measure.
▶ 2:15:16Sen. Murray: Reduction in force effort should not be bluntly used to satisfy an arbitrary quality goal and should be staffed with confident, capable employees to serve the men and women who have earned their health care and benefits. V.a. Has dismissed more than 2400 employees. Nowhere in the messages to these actions explain what warranted them. Members of the committee say v.a. Needs to weed out the bad actors. The dismissal of these employees was not done because it was warranted. It was done because it was easy.
▶ 2:15:47Sen. Murray: Before the committee advances the we believe there should be proper oversight to ensure minimum and who serve our veterans, caregivers and survivors are not arbitrarily removed from their crucial roles. We have to be supports the access act. Since the passage of the mission act, the v.a. Has not have permitted the program consistently across the network. Veterans deserve consistency in care and this is a good step toward providing that. While the proposal does not address v.a.
▶ 2:16:17Sen. Murray: Direct care, we would be remiss not to remind the committee some reasons costs are increasing is because v.a. Cannot provide some of these vital services. Care in the community is v.a. Care. Providing resources for care in the community and not also for v.a. Direct care can lead to a less capable v.a. Which could be detrimental. V.a. Direct care activity care can come from each other and provide a full suite of services for veterans.
▶ 2:16:45Sen. Murray: Often ccn is used to relieve the burden of care but providing resources to only one side of the will exacerbate the problems. We urge the committee to find a community care improvement but also continue to improve the direct care so the pressure release valve is not overused. They vfw supports the draft bills as written.
▶ 2:17:08Sen. Murray: We appreciate the committee's efforts to provide a compromise that provides necessary protections and allows for the expansion of accreditation for individuals who seek to provide claims assistance for a reasonable fee. The bill provides guardrails for preparation and preserves veterans choice when seeking a reasonable free-market alternative to the current process. The vfw has excess red lines regarding a consequence of bill.
▶ 2:17:37Sen. Murray: Better should not have to pay future benefits. Active duty service members should not have to pay for claims assistance prior to transition. No one who prepares a claim should have any financial affiliation with medical examiners who could possibly affect the outcome of that claim. We believe these are commonsense concerns and we insist be in betty -- that we insist begin any bill that is advanced. To the vfw, this has never been about money.
▶ 2:18:08Sen. Murray: Accredited agents and attorneys gimmicky healthy living operating within the ethical confines of the established, non-predatory fee structure. When payment comes from retroactive benefits, it is hard to consider I predatory since the veteran is guaranteed to be able to settle the debt. Putting veterans in debt for accessing their earned benefits is wrong. We are grateful the committee agrees with that. We would also recommend the committee consider a fee cap added to the structure.
▶ 2:18:36Sen. Murray: We don't have a specific amount to suggest but we ask the committee to consider the factors contained within 38 cfr when making that determination. This concludes my testimony. I prepared to answer questions you are the numbers of the committee may have.
▶ 2:19:01Chair Moran: Following our work. I have been working on key provisions of the access act over two congresses. I'm particularly burdened by the v.a.'s classification of mental health residential rehabilitation programs for veterans who require a higher level of mental health and addiction care. It is my view the v.a.
▶ 2:19:21Chair Moran: Should rely on the commission for accreditation rehabilitation facilities and joint commission accredited programs in the community to deliver this critical care closer to veterans homes and closer to their support systems.
▶ 2:19:38Chair Moran: Could any or all of you describe for the committee how the negatively is impacting veterans or your organizations, and by this I mean the v.a.'s position our actions in regard to residential care for those services? Mr. murray.
▶ 2:19:55Mr. Murray: My wife went through this program. About a couple of years ago she was trying to get into one of these facilities she found on her own that provided the exact care she was looking for. Three different times she was referred. The referrals were presented. -- resended.
▶ 2:20:20Mr. Murray: They were all male facilities were for substance abuse or for eating disorders without is not what she was looking for. She found the one but it was outside of optim's network so was denied again. Rtp's are something that can actually save lives. When veterans reach out and ask for that help, they cannot get turned away because they might not come back again.
▶ 2:20:50Mr. Murray: That is why these improvement's are very important.
▶ 2:20:51Chair Moran: Thank you for your answer to the question and your personal experience related to us. I have been broadly interested in community care for a long time. This particular issue strikes me as one in which it is life and death. We have heard and seen in testimony after testimony and stories related to me by veterans and their families how important it is for that residential treatment facility. Yet the v.a.
▶ 2:21:21Chair Moran: Is unwilling to provide that. Either of the other -- either of you want to say more about that?
▶ 2:21:34Mr. Lyle: I would echo pat's comments and yours. This is a crucial piece of the access act that will save lives.
▶ 2:21:44Chair Moran: Thank you.
▶ 2:21:49Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: These are lifesaving measures. At taps we see large numbers who lost a loved ones lost a loved one to suicide. When she went of mental health treatment, she was able to get inpatient fairly easily, even if it was outside of the official providers through dod. It did not save her life but she was able to get that access that she needed when she asked fort.
▶ 2:22:16Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: We know that it is a different system for veterans. Ensuring they have access to that means more people are not coming to us and we do want to have another family who needs to come to us.
▶ 2:22:27Chair Moran: Thank you to all three of you. Mr. lyle, thank you to your for the american legion's support of the veterans access act. I appreciate your acknowledgment that failure to codify the communicating that community care standards leaves them vulnerable to changes that make it difficult for veterans to understand their rights under the mission act.
▶ 2:22:52Chair Moran: In recent times it has been difficult into many instances for veterans to be told their capability of fining or pursuing care in the community. So, under the mission act, you indicate there is potential for adding inconsistent -- inconsistency and v.a. Working on the program. I wanted you to elaborate about how codifying the access standards benefit utterance and make it easier for v.a.
▶ 2:23:21Chair Moran: Staff to understand and deliver the care to the community.
▶ 2:23:30Mr. Lyle: It was regulatory and not defined and not codified in statute. You are right. There is a wide variety of education efforts at those levels to inform veterans of their options. Even if they are informed. Often times veterans can get denied the referral or shortened on the authorization approved time for community care.
▶ 2:23:59Mr. Lyle: It is vital to codify these access standards so that the veterans' decision with their provider is the number one priority in the veteran remains the center of what v.a. Does.
▶ 2:24:08Chair Moran: Thank you. Mr. murray, vfw seems strong in his support for the access act. I am pleased by that. You have a story in your written testimony about a vfw member who gave up on seeking residential care from the v.a. Because the program the veteran needed was not enough v.a. -- in a v.a. Network. If you want to provide more information, we would be glad to be an advocate for that veteran.
▶ 2:24:40Mr. Murray: That was my wife.
▶ 2:24:44Chair Moran: The same story you just described.
▶ 2:24:45Mr. Murray: Provided a referral to a facility and I think the first one was in utah. In the v.a. Network under tri -west. It was denied. She worked with someone at dcba to get a referral to a facility in either arizona or in mexico. Same story. Nowhere could we find anywhere where in-laws said that -- in law it said that.
▶ 2:25:15Mr. Murray: We tried to navigate the system and found somewhere in pennsylvania, but that was after being referred to eating disorder clinics or substance abuse or things like that. That is not what she was looking for.
▶ 2:25:26Chair Moran: Part of the reason the residential programming is so important is for the location to be approximate to where the veteran, his or her family, his or support system lives. None of those laces seem close to maryland.
▶ 2:25:43Mr. Murray: They weren't. What we learned about going through this is some of it -- some facilities are secluded by design. You do not want one right across the street next to union station. That is not the best environment for someone --
▶ 2:26:00Chair Moran: There is a medical reason it is that way.
▶ 2:26:03Mr. Lyle: Yes. When we talk about access standards for the rtp's, they should be thought of different than standard mental health. They are designed to be away from population centers for the healing purposes. The same drive time and wait time standards may not be apples to apples with that same type of mental health care.
▶ 2:26:27Chair Moran: Thank you for educating me in some thing I did not know. I'm sure they told me and it did not register. Finally, in this regard, the vfw recommends access act be amended to prohibit barriers to accessing community programs. Available and commonly tailored to veterans. What are you telling us?
▶ 2:26:54Mr. Murray: Mostly it is falling back to that story. We heard from veterans who have tried to access care and are denied for seemingly, you know, arbitrary reasons. The standards are the standards. That is why we support codifying them. They have been the standard for half a dozen years. We want to make this as easily accessible to veterans as possible so there is transparency.
▶ 2:27:25Mr. Murray: We believe community care is a great supplement to v.a. Care when used consistently and appropriately.
▶ 2:27:33Chair Moran: Excuse me for asking the same questions of the same fax three times. Senator blumenthal.
▶ 2:27:40Sen. Blumenthal: Mr. murray, and all the members of the panel, thank you for your service. Mr. murray, I understand you are making a transition and we will miss you here if in fact you will be going onto another chapter. You have contributed immensely and we thank you for your service on the vfw.
▶ 2:28:12Sen. Blumenthal: Just a follow-up the question you were asked, are you or any of the others in favor of substituting community care for v.a. Health care? Privatizing the v.a.?
▶ 2:28:26Mr. Murray: Thank you. Community care is v.a. Care. V.a. Is supposed to coordinate get. It is a vital tool that the v.a. Can use to ensure we don't have another waitlist scandal echo did and 2014 in phoenix. There are improvements to be made, particularly in scheduling. We hear from veterans who like the care they receive at v.a. Often times it is a one-stop shop for them. They like the care they receive in the community.
▶ 2:28:57Mr. Murray: They are frustrated by the referral and scheduling process. I think is another reason the american legion has supported the access act. A couple of the bills seek to improve that particular capability.
▶ 2:29:07Sen. Blumenthal: They are frustrated by delays and community care, just as they are in v.a. Health care. They should be given quicker care in both, correct?
▶ 2:29:20Mr. Lyle: Across the country there's a common saying we have all heard. You have been one to one v.a., you have been to one v.a. Some have really good community care referral processes. Others don't. Some have the ability to absorb the demand and there catchment area. Others don't and see a higher level of referrals in the community. You are correct. There are improvements to be made about theories and a lot of veterans are happy with both areas.
▶ 2:29:50Sen. Blumenthal: They should become for mentoring.
▶ 2:29:51Mr. Lyle: Absolutely. Dishes served as a relief -- it should serve as a relief valve.
▶ 2:30:02Sen. Blumenthal: Have any of you or your organizations met with secretary collins about the plan to fire 80,000 or more v.a. Workers?
▶ 2:30:17Mr. Lyle: We met with secretary collins prior to the memo being released. Since that time we have been in contact with the secretary's office.
▶ 2:30:25Sen. Blumenthal: You have been in contact?
▶ 2:30:27Mr. Lyle: Yes or. -- sir. We requested during this review process before may, I understand they are supposed to do the full internal review before may. Publish a report in june that recommends the reduction of force by the end of the fiscal year. We absolutely wanted to have the legionnaires' voices heard in the process to ensure there were no cuts in mission-critical capabilities for health or benefits at the v.a.
▶ 2:30:57Mr. Lyle: We expressed our desire to provide that feedback. We were happy to work with this committee on that issue.
▶ 2:31:08Mr. Murray: We saw what some of the impacts on the 2400 that were dismissed in the past few weeks. We are concerned that 80,000 will also have impacts on care and benefits. We expressed that to the secretary. He assured us it will not but we are skeptical because of what we saw already. We know there are ways to improve this by technology.
▶ 2:31:37Mr. Murray: Other ways to make improvements at v.a., but there needs to be a plan in place first. They are going to develop a plan but they already started letting people go. A plan should not be the fourth step in the process. It should probably be the first. That is what you want to see. Transparency. We want to make sure no decisions being made that have unintended consequences. That is what we want to make sure of.
▶ 2:32:07Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: We have not met the secretary yet.
▶ 2:32:10Sen. Blumenthal: Your commander-in-chief was probably the most powerful critic, I have heard, in his testimony and your organization in the statement stopped the bleeding. Use a scalpel to extract the shrapnel. As was done for Mr.
▶ 2:32:38Sen. Blumenthal: Lippert when he was wounded in combat. Don't cut off the arm. We are seeing a chainsaw cutting off the arm. I'm asking both organizations, no matter how you talk to secretary collins, to be as vocal and vociferous as you can be. It is your voices and faces that will make the difference. Not ours.
▶ 2:33:10Sen. Blumenthal: We can be as vehement as can be but at the end of the day it is our veterans who have to say v.a. Health care, v.a. Benefits, the pact act, and unjust telling it straight -- I am just telling it straight. >> if I may follow-up, I wanted to highlight our national commander released a statement.
▶ 2:33:39Sen. Blumenthal: That included a survey to allow legionnaires and veterans of families to provide feedback on any impacts that may have occurred to them or their immediate family as a result of recent policy personnel actions. As of this morning, we have received 4200 approximate responses with a response rate of 60% said no impact. The other 40% at least had minimal impact. We are in the process of sifting through that data.
▶ 2:34:10Sen. Blumenthal: Some of it is hard to frankly tell if it is a result of normal v.a. Issues versus this specific issue. We are happy to follow up and provide that feedback.
▶ 2:34:20Sen. Blumenthal: I would appreciate you following up. I have not omitted my questionnaire yet as a member of the legion but I will make a point of doing so. Let me point out these cuts are literally occurring in real-time. It will be days, maybe weeks before you see an impact. The new york times story is capturing the initial impact. To analogize it to the combat wounds suffered by Mr.
▶ 2:34:49Sen. Blumenthal: Lippert, this is the point in the wound where it has just been inflicted. You have yet to see the shock, the bleeding, and the effects in real life. They are occurring in real time. Your questionnaire may fail to adequately capture the impact, not commission the 80,000 who have not been fired yet.
▶ 2:35:20Sen. Blumenthal: -- not to mention the 80,000 who have not been fired yet. From what I can determine, there is no -- Mr. murray is right. It should be planned first. Fire later. Not fire first and aim later, plan later.
▶ 2:35:43Sen. Blumenthal: Let me ask each of you -- I have described briefly in outline form the legislation I'm introducing putting veterans first. I don't know whether you were here when I outlined it. I will ask for your reaction.
▶ 2:36:07Sen. Blumenthal: Essentially requiring all veterans who were fired from their federal employee -- employment be restored to their position. All veterans, regardless of agency. And all v.a. Employees, whether or not they are veterans. A standard for termination in the future that involves analysis of performance, not just taking the probationary workers and firing them.
▶ 2:36:38Sen. Blumenthal: A standard and a process for appeal. Mental health services. Respect for spouses and survivors. Restore them as well to employment. I think that will be important to your organization. Maybe you can give me some initial reaction.
▶ 2:37:05Mr. Murray: We would be happy to look at that and follow-up with your staff. Hopefully that will let us know who they actually let go and what they all did so we can serve talking about who needs to come back. That is part of the unknowns right now. Who the employees were, what their roles were, and what they're looking at. That would be very helpful.
▶ 2:37:27Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: I echo what pat says. We want to take a look at it and figure out if that gives us access to who was let go and what the impact were, the agencies. That is the piece we have been missing in the process. We hear numbers but we are not seeing the exact data of what departments, with divisions, what agencies, what contracts were terminated. The things we need to see all the information before making a decision.
▶ 2:37:54Sen. Blumenthal: I should make clear the legislation will include military spouses and survivors.
▶ 2:38:03Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Fantastic. Thank you.
▶ 2:38:09Mr. Lyle: I love the name, putting veterans first, but we have to review the legislation to ensure we are aligned on that piece of legislation.
▶ 2:38:18Sen. Blumenthal: I hope for your support. And equally, I hope for your constructive suggestions if you think there are ways to improve it. We are trying to be as comprehensive as possible. There are a lot of different ideas floating around. A lot of different legislation with good sounding names. We want this to be not as good sounding but effective.
▶ 2:38:49Sen. Blumenthal: With that, Mr. chairman, I would like to ask if there is no objection that the series of letters from some of our labor organization partners like the fraternal order of police b samiti to the record. -- be submitted to the record.
▶ 2:39:06Chair Moran: Without objection. I will ask one more question. This time of Ms. haycock-lohmann . Thank you for the work you do. You are a surviving child yourself. Your work is important. I thank you for your help you have provided to me and senator warnock in getting pieces of the love lives on act across the finish line last congress.
▶ 2:39:31Chair Moran: Since its original introduction, can you talk about how many surviving spouses have come forward to speak about why this bill is needed, especially those that have previously been scared to speak out or getting remarried for fear of being penalized?
▶ 2:39:48Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Passage of the act was changing the way survivors felt comfortable speaking about moving forward after their loss. One of the provisions, section 303, allowed -- a surviving spouse had not remarried or held oneself out to be married, which was an arbitrary clause that led to people turning them in her living with another person or sharing a joint bank account or having a child out of wedlock.
▶ 2:40:18Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Anyone could have just turned to the men for whatever reason. Unfortunately, v.a.'s responses to essentially turn off the benefits and open an investigation where they sent people into your home and community. The interview your employer, your children's teachers, your neighbors and tell them you're being investigated for federal fraud. They have so much fear about somebody turning them in for no reason, besides the fact they were living with a new significant other.
▶ 2:40:45Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Passage of section 303 means that nobody is going to be living through these weird witchhunts ever again. They can least be open about their relationship they are in while we wait to pass the rest of the love lives on act and the provisions -- we know so many more surviving spouses will choose remarriage when they pass the financial pieces. We are hearing from surviving spouses who have remarried who are trying to use the education benefits now. They are excited to get their military id cards.
▶ 2:41:18Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: Already a huge impact on the community and they were excited to continue to work and ensure many of the congressional offices whose staff is here have been on the receiving end of emails about the importance of this. We are hearing from thousands of survivors who are very active, very engaged, and are really excited to see the rest of the move. Grateful for the things we have a compass.
▶ 2:41:41Chair Moran: Would you point out or remind me and the committee why there has been pushed back and concern we heard from -- if a survivor remarries, they no longer need to receive certain benefits from the v.a. And dod since their contract with the government has been fulfilled? Who says those kind of things and what is the consequence?
▶ 2:42:08Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: The pushback has been from the armed services committee. They seem to not agree necessarily with the amazing work you guys have done over here. That has been not quite sure why they feel that way but the part they are missing is that surviving spouses are military spouses first. We talk so much about military spouse and unemployment as the biggest problems in the military community. Impacts recruitment and retention. Surviving spouses are military spouses first.
▶ 2:42:38Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: They are making that transition. They have lost their spouse. Many have young children they have to raise. They don't have an established career. All of a sudden they are starting over at 45 years old after raising their children at an entry-level career. They view that military retirement as a family's retirement. Most spouses will never invest in their own retirement. That goes the same for surviving spouses. Survivor benefit plans at dod is a purchase annuity in many cases.
▶ 2:43:07Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: This is something the family bought into but we are breaking a promise by saying, yes, you bought this but we are not you keep it.
▶ 2:43:14Chair Moran: You heard me visit -- questioned the department of veterans affairs officials about the slowness in the debt collection. Anything you want to know why that should matter and it's a valid question?
▶ 2:43:28Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: The biggest problem is that a surviving spouse when they remarry and turn in the paperwork police if they turn the paperwork in, they have done due diligence. We know survivors are uneducated in their own benefits, especially if they have children in the home. There's the spouse's portion in children's portion that is commingled. They believe the v.a. Will stop there portion of the benefits and whatever continues to be sent to them as their children's portion.
▶ 2:43:57Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: They don't ask the right questions because they trust the v.a. Has done the right thing. All of a sudden they get these letters stating we never processed your paperwork or took us two years to process or you never notified us. They trust have done the right thing and a hit -- they get huge debt checks.
▶ 2:44:26Ms. Haycock-Lohmann: There is not a button summit he pushes that they are remarried, click. It canwe have seen cases take tr four years where the survivors had to fight to get them to turn it off. Often times they don't have the money to repay those benefits.
▶ 2:44:41Chair Moran: Senator blumenthal.
▶ 2:44:44Sen. Blumenthal: I don't have a question. I have a thanks again to each of you. I neglected to mention my thanks for your work on military working dogs, service dogs, which has been exemplary and very important to the committee and to me personally. I have work to do. Ms.
▶ 2:45:09Sen. Blumenthal: Haycock-lohmann, you have been at this advocacy for quite a number of years after losing your parents, who I know are still very much in your memory. The issue of veteran suicide still needs to be addressed. I know you are continuing that efficacy. Mr. murray, my thanks for your long-standing service. I want to thank the v.a.
▶ 2:45:36Sen. Blumenthal: Members of the previous panel who have stayed. Mr. engelbaum, thank you for remaining. I want the record to reflect heat and Mr. montoya and others have stayed to listen to you. I hope they will listen to our veterans. Again, I hope our veterans will be vocal in their efficacy. Thank you -- advocacy.
▶ 2:46:06Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you.
▶ 2:46:07Chair Moran: There are no other questions so I want to once again, as senator blumenthal did, thank our second panel of witnesses. The three of you. And for the audience and their presence here as well. It is always nice to see the v.a. Witnesses that stayed to hear the next panel that follows them.
▶ 2:46:27Chair Moran: I too want to express my gratitude and thank you to patrick murray for his significant contribution to the vfw, more broadly to veterans across the country. I hold veterans -- I don't with the level you can have but the highest regard for people who served our country. Maybe there is a slight increase in that respect for veterans who serve other veterans.
▶ 2:46:58Chair Moran: There is absolutely no question you in your career in the things you have been doing for the vfw have been hugely valuable to me and my team, but more importantly, hugely valued to your comrades in arms. Just gratitude and best wishes as the next step occurs.
▶ 2:47:18Sen. Blumenthal: And semper fi.
▶ 2:47:20Chair Moran: Senator blumenthal -- that's a good idea. [applause] I had this contest with the senator from montana about who was got the last word in. Senator blumenthal has picked up his habit.
▶ 2:47:41Sen. Blumenthal: You just got the last word.
▶ 2:47:43Chair Moran: Not if you keep saying that. Again, while we moved to lighter things, I don't want that to take away from the seriousness and complement in the seriousness of the best wishes and the gratitude expressed by everyone in this room. You represent a very important and valuable ally for veterans and for this committee. Thank you for your service. The committee -- let me see if you have the things. -- say a few other things.
▶ 2:48:14Chair Moran: I look for to working with my colleagues in the vso community and v.a. As we try to move the bills forward. Senators who would like to submit questions for the record to today's witnesses or make an additional statement to have a week to do so. Witnesses, please respond to those questions from our colleagues in a timely manner. This is the first legislative hearing we have had in the new administration.
▶ 2:48:43Chair Moran: We had lots of challenges over a long period it quick responses to our colleagues into our request from our staff. Another thing you can take to the v.a. We appreciate timely action on the part of the department. With that, this hearing is adjourned.