▶ 0:14:43Chair Moran: The subcommittee on aviation and space, the united states subcommittee on commerce convenes today for what I consider a very important hearing. 57 days ago our nation witnessed the first major U.S. commercial passenger fight crash in nearly 16 years.
▶ 0:15:14Chair Moran: Families had their loved ones taken from them in an instant. Children lost their parents, husbands lost their wives, a kansas couple lost their daughter, and a rural community in our state lost a husband-and-wife pillar of the community who were traveling to visit their daughter in college. I've taken that american flight before.
▶ 0:15:39Chair Moran: There were many kansans on that flight, and several members of this committee last constituents on the american airlines flight 5342 and the army's black hawk helicopter.
▶ 0:15:55Chair Moran: In addition to the families who are grieving, our first responders made heroic efforts to find survivors and save lives, and the investigators have spent nearly two months searching the potomac river and working to reconstruct wreckage to find answers. It has been a difficult 57 days.
▶ 0:16:19Chair Moran: 67 lives that were lost on january 29 were taken prematurely in an accident that by all indications should have been avoided. Now, the families of these victims, the federal aviation administration, transportation safety board, U.S. army, and congress are tasked without a best honor the memory and make certain that accidents like this never happened again.
▶ 0:16:47Chair Moran: I want to highlight ntsb chair jennifer homendy and ntsb board for their diligence and transparency throughout the investigations. That job obviously is not an easy one, but it has been done with professionalism and care. It is there work that we -- that brings us here today to review.
▶ 0:17:13Chair Moran: Ntsb's polemic area report into the midair collision provides insight into january 29, but in my view many questions still need to be answered. Not only by the ntsb's investigation, but by our nation's safety regulator and by the army.
▶ 0:17:31Chair Moran: The preliminary report provides alarming statistics in using existing faa data on the risks at dcaa to aviation safety -- dca to aviation safety. Ntsb provides these numbers.
▶ 0:17:52Chair Moran: In a 13-year period, not a single month went by without at least one "close call" between a helicopter and commercial jet operating at dca. Between october 21 and december 24, there were 85 incidents where the lateral separation between a commercial jet and helicopter was less than 1500 feet, and the vertical separation was less than 200 feet.
▶ 0:18:24Chair Moran: During that same timeframe there were more than 15,000 "close proximity events" between a helicopter and a commercial airplane. The ntsb findings, that it is possible for a helicopter on route 4 to have as little as 75 feet of vertical separation from airplanes on approach to runway 33.
▶ 0:18:50Chair Moran: I commend the ntsb for issuing urgent safety recommendations and commend the faa in acting to implement them, particularly the permit restriction of non-essential helicopter operations at dca. However, I want to know how, with these statistics in the faa files, why, prior to january 29, the agency failed to improve safety protocols at reagan national this committee worked tirelessly to pass an faa
▶ 0:19:25Chair Moran: Reauthorization bill that prioritized safety. To innovate and equip the faa with the resources necessary to keep our skies safe. We need a permanent, confirmed faa administrator to implement this important framework for the future of the industry. President trump recently nominated ryan bedford to leave the faa and I look forward to his testimony before this committee in the near future. I commend secretary duffy for his push to modernize airspace.
▶ 0:19:55Chair Moran: I look forward to this subcommittee working together to keep america's traveling public safe and improve public trust in our air travel system. Demand for commercial aviation is expected to grow 4% each year over the next two decades, along with new technology and commercial spacecraft entering our airspace, further placing demands upon our airspace and require the tools and guidelines to assure safe airspace.
▶ 0:20:24Chair Moran: American airlines flight 5342 and priority air transport 25 carried innocent civilians, selfless service members, talented figure skaters, fathers and mothers, husbands and wives, sons and daughters.
▶ 0:20:41Chair Moran: While congress responce -- while congress's response should be deliberate and not in knee-jerk fashion, we must make certain that this loss of life never happens again. In this early investigation we have many unresolved questions.
▶ 0:21:01Chair Moran: Among those for me is, why was it not transmitting on the black hawk? Was it turned off or malfunctioning? The statistics that I just described. What is the severity of this issue at other airports where combined traffic is also there.
▶ 0:21:33Chair Moran: What explains the discrepancy between the altitude readings of the crew of the black hawk? Why did the black hawk's invalid pressure altitude data influence other systems that utilize this source? How can we use -- how the use of nightvision goggles may have impacted the black hawk helicopter pilot's line of vision. How should the faa evaluate combining duties of air traffic controllers? I am appreciative for our witnesses being here today.
▶ 0:22:02Chair Moran: I know that they each take this circumstance seriously. I'm anxious to hear the discussion that they have with this committee, and the end result should be a better understanding as well as working to identify and prevent tragedies today and into the future. I know recognize the ranking member of this subcommittee, senator duckworth from illinois, for her opening remarks.
▶ 0:22:32Sen. Duckworth: Thank you for your continued partnership on aviation safety issues, I enjoy being your partner on the subcommittee. I want to thank both the chairman of the commerce committee and ranking member for your work with us as well. I want to extend first and foremost my condolences to the family members of the victims, some of whom are here today, both on the commercial airliner as well as the family members who lost the brave soldiers in the black hawk helicopter.
▶ 0:23:03Sen. Duckworth: These are folks who put on the colors of this great nation, committed themselves to defending this great nation, and were at their duty stations training to protect and defend us as they lost their lives. I want to thank the first responders and everyone at ntsb for their tireless work to get us the answers that we are all looking for. There is a saying that many of you have heard, safety regulations are written in blood. We have an obligation to the victims to learn what went wrong and prevent a collision like this from ever happening again.
▶ 0:23:34Sen. Duckworth: As a former blackhawk pilot myself, and I have flown helicopters out of very congested aircraft at midway airport. I commanded the midway unit for a number of years. I know how challenging this type of mixed-use airspace can be. A challenging airspace is no excuse. This collision was horrendous and heartbreaking, but it was not a surprise. Alarm bells about potential collisions had been ringing for years.
▶ 0:24:01Sen. Duckworth: Coming out of the pandemic we saw a frightening rise in close calls and erosion of our aviation systems' margin of safety. We've known for years that we need more air traffic controllers and more safety technology. The warnings have been clear and in some cases right here within this committee in a bipartisan consensus on the need to upgrade the equipment and the need to train more air traffic controllers. In november of 2023 we held a hearing on close calls.
▶ 0:24:29Sen. Duckworth: The ntsb chair testified citing staffing shortages, fatigue, distraction, deviation from regulation, and a lack of runway safety technology and she warned, I quote, the concerning uptick in such incidents is a clear warning sign that the U.S. aviation system is sharply strained. We cannot wai until a fatal accident forces action. Chairwoman, sadly predicted what would happen. You said that in 2023.
▶ 0:25:00Sen. Duckworth: At the same hearing the air traffic controller association president told the shortages were so bad that many air traffic controllers were working mandatory overtime, six day weeks, 10 hour days. He warned that over the long term this will continue to introduce unnecessary risks into the system. We passed in a bipartisan way faa reauthorization bill last year to help rebuild our aviation workforce and make critical investments in safety.
▶ 0:25:28Sen. Duckworth: The faa is still implementing that new law, but clearly congress has more work to do to show up aviation safety in this great nation. In december 2024, we held another hearing. The gao told us more than 75% of our aging air traffic control systems are unsustainable or potentially unsustainable. The deadly collision at dca is not the only incident so far this year.
▶ 0:25:51Sen. Duckworth: We have seen deadly crashes in philadelphia and alaska, crash landing in toronto that miraculously everyone survived even after the aircraft flipped upside down, earlier this month we saw passengers standing on the wing of a 737 aircraft in denver to escape a fire. Near misses keep happening. In february a southwest flight almost collided at midway airport.
▶ 0:26:17Sen. Duckworth: As such a dangerous time for aviation safety, when we need to bolster our workforce and invest in technology, the last thing we need to do is make cuts to the faa. Yet it two weeks after the dca crash the trump administration began hiring hundreds of faa employees. I say all of this because it is important context. We need to keep in mind during today's hearing, we need to understand what happened at dca but also understand how this fits into a much larger threat to aviation safety.
▶ 0:26:47Sen. Duckworth: According to the ntsb, many close calls in recent years between october 2021 and december 2020 four. As the chairman has said, there were more than 15,000 incidences of commercial aircraft coming close to rotary wing aircraft. 85 had a vertical separation of less than 200 feet. Last year, there were two high-profile runway post calls at dca.
▶ 0:27:11Sen. Duckworth: The ntsb preliminary report raises several questions, notably how to the faa allow helicopter route to come within 75 feet of a runway approach? The dca is not the only airport in the country where helicopters and airplanes share congested airspace. Thankfully faa is evaluating eight cities where this may also be an issue, including chicago.
▶ 0:27:37Sen. Duckworth: We also need to know more about what helicopter pilots knew about their altitude, was the equipment working properly, the pilot and instructor pilot indicated different altitudes as they approached the key bridge and ntsb determine some of the altitude information was invalid. There are questions about why was the helicopter not transmitting out. How come so many helicopters are allowed exemptions from the ads be out requirement?
▶ 0:28:11Chair Moran: Thank you very much for your opening statement. She almost called me the ranking member. There is no reason to apologize, senator duckworth. The previous chairman of the subcommittee, I had a great opportunity to work with her as the ranking member and I would indicate to senator duckworth than those in the audience, this is the subcommittee that will set partisanship aside and continue to work closely to find the answers that we are looking
▶ 0:28:41Chair Moran: For today and making sure changes are made to prevent this tragedy. We are joined by the chairman of the full committee, senator cruz. I appreciate his presence and leadership on this issue from the beginning and I recognize him for his opening statement.
▶ 0:29:01Sen. Cruz: Thank, Mr. chairman, thank you to the ranking member as well. I want to thank each of the witnesses for being here today, and I want to extend a particular welcome to the family members of the 67 crash victims who are here today for this hearing. I have met with many of you since the crash. Each of you have my deepest condolences for your unimaginable loss.
▶ 0:29:28Sen. Cruz: The crash involving american airlines flight 5342 and the army black hawk helicopter was preventable. It didn't have to happen. I want you know that I am committed to using the power of this committee to determine if any policy failures led to this crash, and making certain that congress acts to correct them.
▶ 0:29:56Sen. Cruz: This accident marks the first time a commercial crash in the united states has led to mass fatalities in over 15 years. While america's national airspace system has kept americans safe for decades, this critical juncture shows that more action must take place to enhance the safety of our system. The hearing today will examine the factors leading up to the midair collision 300 feet above the potomac river.
▶ 0:30:26Sen. Cruz: Whether the army's practice of disabling ads-b out is a glaring safety concern. If the faa missed warning signs with thousands of instances where helicopters and commercial air -- aircraft came too close to colliding. Whether the communications between the air traffic controller and both of the pilots of the american airlines flight and the black hawk helicopter was inadequate.
▶ 0:30:59Sen. Cruz: The families of the american airlines flight 5342 victims deserve answers. Congress deserves answers. The american flying public deserves answers to these important questions. The ntsb does terrific work. And I'm grateful to chairman jennifer homendy and her team for their thorough investigation of this accident. The preliminary report being discussed today is factual.
▶ 0:31:28Sen. Cruz: It doesn't include analysis nor does it include findings, it is just one step in what will be a long and ongoing investigation. This committee will closely follow how that investigation proceeds and look forward to the ntsb's full findings. Some actions, however, cannot wait. Aviation safety is dependent on what is called the swiss cheese model. Each layer of cheese represents a defense against an identified risk.
▶ 0:32:00Sen. Cruz: Building redundancy into the system to plug holes and prevent accidents. After decades of advancements, the U.S. aviation system has been held up worldwide as the gold standard of safety. The faa's air traffic organization depends on thousands of talented air traffic controllers. Hundreds of millions of dollars in annual investments to sustain technologies used to operate the air system. Billions more invested in technologies and facilities across the system.
▶ 0:32:32Sen. Cruz: Even with these significant investments, the air traffic system is failing. Facilities, which are falling apart, are shortstaffed, and projections show the shortages will last for years. Over the weekend, the note him system broke down for a third time in just two years.
▶ 0:33:02Sen. Cruz: Congress provided tens of millions of dollars in two years to modify -- to modernize the notam system and it has already broken down twice this calendar year. President trump and secretary duffy have pledged to take action to improve the air traffic control system. I plan to lead this committee and passing legislation to do the same.
▶ 0:33:27Sen. Cruz: We must provide resources for the needed short, medium, long term that chart the path to success and sustainment for the air traffic system. Earlier this week, I issued a call to aviation stakeholders for specific ideas to improve the air traffic system.
▶ 0:33:47Sen. Cruz: I asked for concrete proposals, taking nothing off the table prematurely to make sure that whatever resources and authorities congress provides to the administration will make a lasting difference. My proposal will complement the trump administration's forthcoming plan. What the tragedy of flight 5342 shows us is that it is never too early to act to improve aviation safety.
▶ 0:34:16Sen. Cruz: I want to thank the families of the victims for taking your enormous grief and channeling it into energy, into advocacy, into standing up and speaking out for other families flying on other flights. Fighting for them so they don't have to endure the grief and loss that each of you has endured.
▶ 0:34:44Sen. Cruz: It is my hope that we can spend the coming months in the wake of this tragedy working seriously to plug safety gaps and ensure that an accident of this magnitude never happens again.
▶ 0:34:58Chair Moran: Thank you for your opening remarks come your leadership today under leadership into the future. We recognize the ranking member of the full committee, the senator from washington state.
▶ 0:35:13Sen. Cantwell: Thank you. We are here today to examine one of the most devastating accidents in U.S. history. With 67 lives lost on january 29, we have a responsibility to not only understand what happened but fix it so that it never happens again.
▶ 0:35:34Sen. Cantwell: I want to recognize the families who are here with us today and express my condolences, but also my appreciation for the diligence that you now are demonstrating by being here today. Too much of aviation safety in the last several years has been left to the advocacy's of families. We shouldn't have to rely on you. You should be able to mourn your losses. But we need you to continue to advocate for these important policies.
▶ 0:36:04Sen. Cantwell: I welcome the ntsb chair jennifer homendy, acting administrator chris rocheleau, and brigadier general matthew braman. You are here to provide an update on this collision and why a black hawk helicopter on a training flight collided with this american airlines flight. As we seek answers, the ntsb's preliminary report has alarming facts.
▶ 0:36:34Sen. Cantwell: First, in the three years leading up to the collision, commercial airplane and helicopters got within 400 feet of each other on 15,214 occasions. Within 200 feet on 85 occasions. The faa air traffic managers approve helicopter route charts annually so that the data raised questions about the safety of this route.
▶ 0:37:06Sen. Cantwell: The ball clearly falls into the faa's court on whether to act on this data or make changes where the helicopters can fly in dca. A helicopter at 200 feet would only have 75 vertical feet separation from an airplane approaching on runway 33. These findings revealed a very systemic issue that demands answers from our witnesses today.
▶ 0:37:27Sen. Cantwell: Acting administrator chris rocheleau, why did the faa not act on 15,000 reports of dangerous proximity? How are these helicopter routes allowed to remain when alarm bells were literally going off in the towers? This lack of oversight must change.
▶ 0:37:50Sen. Cantwell: The army black hawk helicopter was not transmitting what is known as an ads-b out signal, although we don't know why. We know that the military told our colleagues, house delegate eleanor holmes norton in 2020 three, that the military operates 100% of its flights in the national capital region without this safety technology. 100% of the time.
▶ 0:38:17Sen. Cantwell: On march 7, I wrote secretary hegseth about this issue for a response, asking to respond by march 21 and I've still heard nothing back. I don't like the silence. It is deafening. Mr. braman, I have questions about the 2019 rules stating the deactivation of the ads-b out technology pursuant to an exemption was not to be routine.
▶ 0:38:45Sen. Cantwell: The holmes letter says not only was it far from routine 100% of the time operated with this exemption. Acting administrator chris rocheleau, you gave the government a loophole. We want to know why this was allowed to continue if we have this data and information. Are there any other agencies that are acting with ads-b out that we have not addressed yet? The faa rule needs to change.
▶ 0:39:19Sen. Cantwell: Chair jennifer homendy I will be asking you about ads-b requirements. In 2020 faa said that it was premature to require this kind of equipment on operators. Yet, at the same time, just two years earlier you wrote a letter saying, disagreeing with them, saying that the conclusion stating the "equip each of aircraft with ads-b out and capacity will provide for an
▶ 0:39:51Sen. Cantwell: Immediate, substantial contribution to safety, especially during operations in and around airports." why did we not listen? 15 years later commercial aircraft are still not operating with this. If american airlines regional jet had been equipped with this ads-b, it would have been able to receive the blackhawk's transmission, giving it better intelligence on positioning.
▶ 0:40:18Sen. Cantwell: Similarly, the father of the pilot -- tim lily, the father of the pilot of the commercial craft was also a black hawk helicopter pilot, and his wife, spent many years working at gulfstream. They gave me a list of actions that they hope the congress can take to improve safety. Mr. chairman, we all need to work together on this critical safety legislation.
▶ 0:40:43Sen. Cantwell: Legislation to close the ads-b out loophole, require more commercial jets to have ads-b in capacity when operating near our nation's busiest airports, and have stronger information sharing between our military and civilian authorities. This isn't just about policy, it's about saving lives.
▶ 0:41:05Sen. Cantwell: To my colleagues, I hope that we can work together in a bipartisan fashion since the faa reauthorization act required and completion by 2025. -- nextgen completion by 2025. Authorize $17 billion through 2028 to modernize and replace the faa atc systems and infrastructure.
▶ 0:41:36Sen. Cantwell: I don't believe in cutting the services, benefits, or training of our air traffic controllers. We need them and we need them to do their job. I supported senator cruz's efforts to advance more training centers to get more air traffic controllers trained. Now, we need to learn this painful lesson. We need to make sure we are preventing future accidents from happening. We must be unwavering in this effort. Thank you, Mr.
▶ 0:42:06Sen. Cantwell: Chairman I yield back.
▶ 0:42:14Chair Moran: Ranking member cantwell, thank you for your opening statement. I will now introduce our panelists who are here to testify. First -- I should put a title before you. Our first witness is chairman jennifer homendy of the national transportation safety board. The ntsb is an independent federal agency that investigates every civil aviation accident in the united states and significant events and other modes of transportation like rail, transit, road, and pipeline. She has served as the chairwoman since 2020 one and is a member of the ntsb board since 2018.
▶ 0:42:45Chair Moran: Our second witness is Mr. chris rocheleau, acting administrator to the federal aviation administration. Mr. rocheleau served at the fda for more than 20 years multiple roles, including deputy associate administrator for aviation safety. Our third witness is brigadier general matthew braman, the director of army aviation for the headquarters of the department of the army.
▶ 0:43:14Chair Moran: Throughout his service, general matthew braman has supported overseas contingency operations. I thank you, general, for your service. I now recognize chairman jennifer homendy to deliver her opening statement. Ms. homendy thank you for the opportunity to provide you with an update on our investigation of the midair collision that occurred over the potomac river near reagan national airport on january 29.
▶ 0:43:45Chair Moran: The ntsb knows tragedy all too well. We experience it every day. Which is why we fight so hard for safety. Yesterday we remembered the six lives lost during the collapse of the key bridge in baltimore a year ago. Today, we once again more than 67 lives lost at dca, the seven in philadelphia, 10 in nome, alaska. We often talk about safety in terms of numbers. Accidents, fatalities, did they go up or down?
▶ 0:44:17Chair Moran: It is important that we remember those who died at dca and other accidents that we investigate are not numbers. As you said, these are mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, wives, husbands, cousins, best friends who will not be there with their loved ones for easter egg hunts, passover, the end of ramadan, mother's day, father's day, graduation, all of life's celebrations.
▶ 0:44:44Chair Moran: Their family and friends, in person or online, are here today. I can only imagine what they are going through, and I want to take a moment to again express our deepest into these to each of them. Please know that we keep you in our hearts as we diligently work to determine how this tragedy happened so that no one, no one, experiences the deeply significant loss that you must feel today.
▶ 0:45:13Chair Moran: Ntsb was on the scene that night within an hour of the collision and we remained there for over a month. Work continues to this day, including diving operations to recover personal effects and any remaining portions of the wreckage. On march 11, we released our preliminary report which contained only factual information that we've gathered in the first few weeks. All of which can change throughout the course of the investigation.
▶ 0:45:42Chair Moran: And doesn't include analysis or findings, nor does it determine probable cause. Those will be in our final report. We don't wait for a final report to take action. If we uncover critical safety issues that require immediate attention. Which is why in conjunction with the release of our preliminary report we issued an urgent safety recommendations to the faa.
▶ 0:46:08Chair Moran: In both reports, we cited faa surveillance data that showed between october 2021 and december 2024 there were over 15000 and it events between commercial aircraft and helicopters at dca.
▶ 0:46:26Chair Moran: In reviewing that and other data, including airport operations, and established helicopter routes, we determined that the separation distances between helicopter traffic operating on route 4 and aircraft using runways 15 and 33 are insufficient posing an intolerable risk to safety.
▶ 0:46:49Chair Moran: We recommended that the faa prohibit operations on helicopter route 4 between haynes pointe and wilson bridge when the runways are being used for departures and arrivals. We recommended that the faa designate an alternative helicopter route that can be used to facilitate travel between haynes pointe and the wilson bridge when that segment of route4 is closed. I want to commend secretary duffy for his swift acceptance of our recommendations.
▶ 0:47:21Chair Moran: They have been tremendous partners throughout the course of this investigation and I want to thank them for their commitment to safety. I know that we are all searching for answers. The right safety solutions. The ntsb is the gold standard for accident investigations for a reason. We are thorough and fact-based. We leave no stone unturned and we let the evidence guide us. Investigations take time.
▶ 0:47:52Chair Moran: We have a lot of work to do in this investigation, from interviews, two analyses of large volumes of document and data, to air carrier operations that we have to review, helicopter operations, air traffic control human performance, helicopter airworthiness, flight recorders, and more.
▶ 0:48:16Chair Moran: In total, we have about 40 ntsb experts who are leading this investigation in collaboration with the parties and others, and we are aiming to complete this investigation within one year, of course, barring any unforeseen circumstances. I want to close by thanking you for your steadfast support of the ntsb and I look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 0:48:40Chair Moran: Thank you, chairwoman. I now recognize the acting administrator, chris rocheleau, of the faa, for five minutes.
▶ 0:48:51Mr. Rocheleau: Thank you chairman moran, ranking member duckworth, chairman cruz, ranking member cantwell. The midair collision report of american airlines 5342 and the black hawk helicopter that occurred at dca.
▶ 0:49:16Mr. Rocheleau: I would like to begin by offering my sincere sympathies to the families and loved ones of those who perished in recent aviation accidents, particularly the accident near dca. The faa continues to support the ongoing ntsb investigations and our work with the ntsb will help us understand the factors that contributed to these accidents and we will use the data to inform future faa actions. Aviation safety is the faa's number one priority.
▶ 0:49:46Mr. Rocheleau: Let me repeat, the faa safety is the faa's number one priority. While flying remains the safest mode of transportation, aviation safety is not static. There is always room for improvement. The professionals that the faa take their jobs very seriously, and strive to ensure safety every day. The fact of the matter is, we have to do better.
▶ 0:50:11Mr. Rocheleau: We have to identify trends, we have to get smarter on how we use data, and when we put corrective actions in place, we must implement them with diligence. I want to thank chair jennifer homendy and the entire team for their dedication and the ongoing investigation. Earlier, the ntsb issued an initial report and two urgent safety recommendations.
▶ 0:50:38Mr. Rocheleau: The recommendations aligned with the actions that the faa took under secretary duffy's leadership immediately following the accident to restrict helicopter operations around dca, eliminating mixed helicopter and fixed wing traffic, and carefully developing alternative routes. Following the ntsb recommendations, the faa took action to make these restrictions permanent.
▶ 0:51:01Mr. Rocheleau: When a central helicopter operations like life-saving medical, active law enforcement, active air defense, or presidential transport must operate in the flight-restricted airspace, fixed wing aircraft are not allowed in that airspace. We are also continuing to analyze other airports that have established helicopter routes and the nearby airplane traffic. The faa is also carefully reviewing offshore helicopter operations.
▶ 0:51:28Mr. Rocheleau: As part of this analysis, we are using machine learning and language modeling to scan incident reports and explore multiple data sources defined themes and areas of concern. We will take immediate action if needed to mitigate any identified safety risks. Additionally, I will establish a safety risk management panel and engage with stakeholders to identify additional hazard areas in looting helicopter and fixed-wing interactions.
▶ 0:51:56Mr. Rocheleau: All aircraft operating in dca class e air -- class b airspace will be required to broadcast ads-b out with very limited exceptions. Air traffic control staffing is a top priority, as air traffic controllers play a critical role in keeping the american people safe. Right now, we have over 10,750 controllers on the job with over 3000 in training.
▶ 0:52:27Mr. Rocheleau: We intend to hire another 2000 controllers this year. We have streamlined the hiring process and incentivize tiring with a 30% increase in the salary of those who qualify to attend the faa's academy. We are already seeing positive results from these improvements. During the hiring surge that closed last week, we received over 10,000 applications and more than 8000 were referred to testing.
▶ 0:52:53Mr. Rocheleau: We also continue to maintain rigorous oversight of bowing to ensure the safety and compliance of its aircraft designs and operations. This oversight extends to the ongoing monitoring of boeing practices and software updates. We are working closely with boeing to address safety concerns and ensure that all required modifications and improvements are made to meet the highest safety standards.
▶ 0:53:20Mr. Rocheleau: We have a strong foundation at the faa, and we are going to make our agency even stronger. We are refocusing our energy and directing all of our resources to safety. We will continue to recruit, train, retain the best and brightest for the faa team. I thank you for the opportunity to testify today and I also thank president trump and secretary duffy for putting their faith in me to lead the faa during this time. The work that we do at the faa is not easy, but it is vitally important to the american people.
▶ 0:53:51Mr. Rocheleau: I am proud to once again be part of the faa team. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:53:55Chair Moran: Thank you, sir. I recognize brigadier general matthew braman for his testimony.
▶ 0:54:03Brig. Gen. Braman: Thank you, chairman moran ranking member duckworth, chairman cruz, ranking member cantwell, members of the committee, for the opportunity to speak about the midair collision that occurred between an army black hawk helicopter and american airlines flight 5342.
▶ 0:54:26Brig. Gen. Braman: First and foremost, on behalf of army senior leaders and all of our soldiers, I want to pass my continued condolences to all of those who are affected by this tragedy. I want to thank the professional work of our first responders in the federal, state, and local agencies that responded within minutes to the crash site and aided in recovery.
▶ 0:54:48Brig. Gen. Braman: I want to thank chairman jennifer homendy and the ntsb for conducting a thorough investigation and facilitating a close and transparent relationship with the army as we conduct our parallel investigations. The ntsb is leading the investigation. I cannot offer facts and recommendations at this time. I can offer an army perspective on the plumbing area report and provide clarifying information on army helicopter operations.
▶ 0:55:16Brig. Gen. Braman: I can certainly do that here in the washington, D.C. area. For context, the 12th aviation battalion falls under the army aviation brigade that we refer to as the tab with the mission to provide continuous, responsive aviation support to senior military and government leaders to enable the continuity of government operations and defense support to civil authorities. The tab is one of dozens of organizations, civilian and military, that operates helicopters and the D.C. area.
▶ 0:55:48Brig. Gen. Braman: Our aircraft continue to meet all requirements to operate in the national airspace in the helicopter routes in washington, D.C.. They operate under positive control of flight services within 30 nautical miles of dca. Pat 25 was operating out of fort belvoir. The crew of three were fully qualified to fly in the local area. The pilot in command was an instructor pilot.
▶ 0:56:20Brig. Gen. Braman: The copilot rebecca lobach was a qualified pilot in command as well. The crew chief, ryan o'hara, was a standardization of flight instructor. The night of the 29th of january, pat 25 was conducting an efficiency or readiness test. As part of that flight it was approved to operate in contingency locations related to their mission leading to questions whether pat 25 was transmitting ads-b out.
▶ 0:56:49Brig. Gen. Braman: The specific status of both its operation and functionality is something that is under the investigation of the ntsb. The crew was approved to operate with that capability off in accordance with government policy. The aircraft transponder was however active, with mode three alpha charlie and mode as within the class b airspace and was emitting all of the required information to allow air traffic services and traffic collision avoidance systems to detect and track the aircraft.
▶ 0:57:17Brig. Gen. Braman: Army policy doesn't permit transponder off operations. There is no shortage of speculation on potential causes of the accident. I understand well the desire for answers. As the director of army aviation and senior army aviator, there is nothing more important to me than the capability, proficiency, and safety of our aircrews, and those who transport and defense in support of this nation.
▶ 0:57:47Brig. Gen. Braman: And personally invested in the safety of our commercial aviation enterprise as I live with an airline pilot. Her safety and the safety of her passengers is paramount to me as well. Which is why it is essential that we see this investigation through to its fruition so that we can have well-informed fact-based conclusions to make desire change when needed. We are prudent that the army is not waiting to take action.
▶ 0:58:14Brig. Gen. Braman: Immediately after the accident, the 12th aviation for -- aviation battalion paused all operations and only recently resumed flights and only out of the seven nautical radius of dca with flights directly supporting the secretary of defense and the chairman of the joint chiefs. That remains true today. The army continues to fully comply with all faa restrictions on helicopter traffic over the potomac river near dca.
▶ 0:58:38Brig. Gen. Braman: The army is actively participating along with other military services and agencies with an faa-led working group to redesign the route four helicopter core door as recommended by the ntsb and his plumber neri report. We have also issued interim guidance to operate ads-b off. The army is fully committed to a transparent, collaborative review of the events of 29 january and of all of the operations in dca.
▶ 0:59:08Brig. Gen. Braman: We support any and all efforts to ensure that a tragedy such as this never occurs again. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee and I look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 0:59:18Chair Moran: Thank you. Let me begin by asking witnesses questions, and then we will rotate, alternate, between republicans and democrats based upon the time of the leadership of the committee. Ms. homendy, let me begin with you.
▶ 0:59:38Chair Moran: First of all, I am interested in learning about the occurrences that have been described, that I described in my opening statement, about near misses and occurrences advisories that occurred in numerous occasions over a long period of time.
▶ 0:59:59Chair Moran: What I hope you and I will ask the administrator of the faa these questions, but I would like to know what did people know, when did they know it, and why didn't someone do something about it?
▶ 1:00:19Chair Moran: In asking you about this topic, is the information that is collected by the faa, where these statistics that we've mentioned, where they come from, is it true?
▶ 1:00:30Ms. Homendy: There were different sources of information. Some were faa, some of which are voluntary safety reporting programs.
▶ 1:00:41Chair Moran: Do the voluntary safety reporting programs, voluntary reporting to the faa?
▶ 1:00:47Ms. Homendy: Yes.
▶ 1:00:49Chair Moran: Yes, so the information that has been described here about those events over a long period of time is housed and utilized by you but housed at the faa?
▶ 1:01:03Ms. Homendy: I believe through a contractor, but yes. Do
▶ 1:01:08Dchair Moran: Do you know if that information was reviewed in a regular manner? Have you investigated why information seems so important didn't result in changes in policy, rules, or regulations?
▶ 1:01:25Ms. Homendy: I don't know why. What I will say is, this was a data request, came from a data request from the ntsb. We made that with the faa and received information from the aviation safety action program, from air traffic control, from mandatory occurrence reports, and information from the faa surveillance data, from radar, but this was a request from us.
▶ 1:01:58Ms. Homendy: That resulted in our evaluation of that data and our urgent safety recommendations. I don't know if the faa pulled that data themselves at any point. I would have to defer to the acting administrator.
▶ 1:02:12Chair Moran: That information was so valuable, important, and critical, that is the recently asked for the immediate changes in safety regulations. True?
▶ 1:02:23Ms. Homendy: Yes. There does seem to be an issue with identifying emerging trends. There is a lot of data going to faa. Taking that data and looking at trends and not specific issues is something that not only the ig has raised, but the acting administrator has raised, about having to do a better job with analyzing those trends. It's key.
▶ 1:02:55Ms. Homendy: If we can get it after an accident occurs, what is key is getting it before and preventing it.
▶ 1:03:01Chair Moran: This is the wake-up call that changes need to be made?
▶ 1:03:04Ms. Homendy: Correct.
▶ 1:03:06Chair Moran: Administrator, I'm interested in asking you the same series of questions. What did the faa know prior to the accident, when did they know it, and why wasn't some action taken to encourage and increase the safety? Particularly at an airport like dca, and maybe others, and the proximity between helicopter and commercial air service traffic?
▶ 1:03:32Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, sir. I'm very concerned about what we've learned in the subsequent investigation from the ntsb and our own reviews that we immediately took. Clearly, something was missed. I would say immediately after the event we took the action, and again I referenced earlier under secretary duffy's leadership, to restrict air traffic in the area to ensure that there was no helicopter traffic as well as fixed-wing.
▶ 1:04:02Chair Moran: My question is, what didn't happen at the faa that would have highlighted this problem earlier at the time at which the information is acquired by the faa but not looked at until the accident?
▶ 1:04:20Mr. Rocheleau: The actual process -- there is an ongoing review all the time of the data that's available. As the chair mentioned, there are millions of pieces of data that come in. I will tell you, we have verified every single near midair collision was investigated, but there are certainly those instances where the information itself wasn't identified.
▶ 1:04:47Mr. Rocheleau: That is why we put artificial intelligence and machine learning in place to ensure that we are able to go through millions, tens of millions other pieces of data to identify those trends and act quickly to mitigate those risks.
▶ 1:05:00Chair Moran: There is no question had this information been utilized by the faa or others that steps could have been taken to make certain that flying in the circumstance of helicopters and commercial aviation at a place like reagan national airport, there would have been an opportunity to do something had that information been known and acted on?
▶ 1:05:25Mr. Rocheleau: That is correct.
▶ 1:05:27Chair Moran: Senator duckworth.
▶ 1:05:29Sen. Duckworth: Following up on the chairman's questions, it is also my first question. Mr. rush low, can you tell me if this new methodology using ai or whatever methodology you are using to look at the aggregate data, is being applied to other airports where there is close helicopter traffic and proximity to landing aircraft?
▶ 1:05:51Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, it is. We have 10 locations around the united states including anchorage, alaska that we are looking through now I'm a what we are referring to as hotspots. To look at similar trends and activities as it relates to fixed-wing and helicopter operations.
▶ 1:06:07Sen. Duckworth: Is this methodology of reviewing aggregate data going to be applied nationwide and not just this particular area, but to look at the overall trends of near misses at other airports and not just between fixed wing and rotary wing?
▶ 1:06:19Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, ma'am. There are three activities. First, the hotspots. Second is a nationwide use of this review and use of this new capability that we've just admitted. Of course, the ongoing analysis. How we are doing that with our industry partners as well as the military.
▶ 1:06:39Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. According to ntsb, between october 2020 one and december 2024 there were 15,000 incidences of commercial aircraft coming close to helicopters and 85 had a vertical separation of less than 200 feet. You know how many of those 85 involved army helicopters?
▶ 1:07:00Brig. Gen. Braman: We do not.
▶ 1:07:02Sen. Duckworth: Will you tell me why that is?
▶ 1:07:05Brig. Gen. Braman: That data in those databases is currently not shared. Certainly, the army is interested in becoming part of an opportunity to share data, because that's relative to our safety as well.
▶ 1:07:20Sen. Duckworth: We'll the faa commit to sharing that data with the army?
▶ 1:07:22Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, ma'am.
▶ 1:07:23Ms. Homendy: We have also asked for that information and will share it with all parties.
▶ 1:07:28Sen. Duckworth: I think this needs to be ongoing into the future, especially military aircraft flying rotary wing in close vicinity. These folks should be getting this data and we can do that moving forward. Can you explain the army's rationale for the policy that gives commanders the discretion to determine how many crew chiefs are needed for a particular mission?
▶ 1:07:52Sen. Duckworth: I think it's important -- I don't think that the civilian population understands the extent to which the army does risk assessment and risk mitigation and risk analysis. That process I think will be important. How will you be implementing that process moving forward?
▶ 1:08:08Brig. Gen. Braman: Thank you, ranking member duckworth. I realize that I have broad authority as the army aviation regulation proponent to direct how every aircraft and operator conducts their mission.
▶ 1:08:23Brig. Gen. Braman: The reality is, and I'm not afraid to use that authority when appropriate, the reality is the best individuals we have to assess the risk of a recent flight are our unit commanders, because we hold them responsible.
▶ 1:08:39Brig. Gen. Braman: They have the authority, the responsibility, and we hold them responsible to take any mission that they authorize, to look at the factors involved, to understand the people assigned to their organization, and to adopt that crew to meet those requirements. That's certainly something that will be looked at in this investigation. Did we do that? We will hold commanders accountable if they fail to uphold that responsibility.
▶ 1:09:05Sen. Duckworth: Can you speak to if a risk assessment comes in at a medium risk or high-risk how the approval authority changes? You mentioned approval authority for the D.C. area has been raised higher for ads-b out, correct?
▶ 1:09:19Brig. Gen. Braman: All missions go through an initial approval. A commander has to authorize a reason for an aircraft fly. After the completion of that authorization the crew assesses all of the risks associated, known and expected risks associated with the mission they have been tasked to do that escutcheon involves a third-party, senior aviator within the organization who then assesses the risk, and then directs the crew to make any changes to mitigate anything that either that ranking officer understands based on their
▶ 1:09:51Brig. Gen. Braman: Experience. When those things are implemented, it goes back to a commander who must authorize every single flight. So, in the occurrence of things like ads-b out operations, that authority resides with a medium risk authority. A battalion commander must prove that mission in particular. In this case, the policy allowed that to be delegated down to a company commander. They must prove that, that it meets the standards of the policy completely.
▶ 1:10:19Brig. Gen. Braman: We have elevated that the high risk requiring a commander to approve any mission that is ads-b off.
▶ 1:10:29Sen. Duckworth: I will ask for your indulgence for the next 30 seconds because I think my next question applies to all here and you will be interested. Thank you. This is for the faa. I'm hearing that there is a backlog of air traffic controllers who are waiting to get their faa medicals approved so that they can return to duty. We have an air traffic controller shortage right now. In the chicagoland area, there are about a dozen air traffic controllers who are waiting.
▶ 1:10:58Sen. Duckworth: They are waiting as long as 12-18 months to get an appointment or get a ruling from the faa medical office so that they can actually get back on the job. They're sitting there and not able to do their job. I think that this is a problem at all of the major airports around the country. I'm sure that every one of us has air traffic controllers who are waiting to be put back onto duty and they cannot because of the backlog with the faa medical system. Can you speak to that?
▶ 1:11:27Sen. Duckworth: If I give you a list of my air traffic controllers who have been waiting, will you look at those folks and make sure that their medical issues are addressed so that we can get them back on the job?
▶ 1:11:37Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, senator. I commit to that.
▶ 1:11:41Chair Moran: Chairman cruz.
▶ 1:11:43Sen. Cruz: Thank you, Mr. chairman. On march 1, multiple commercial aircraft landing at dca reported receiving a traffic alert, collision avoidance system, a tcas advisory, advising pilots of an impending threat from above. In some cases, directing the crews to take evasive action by descending.
▶ 1:12:08Sen. Cruz: I think that we were all alarmed that just a few weeks after the tragedy commercial pilots were being told that they were at eminent risk of a deadly midair collision. It has come to my attention that the warnings were caused by the secret service and the U.S. navy improperly testing counter drone technology at dca.
▶ 1:12:31Sen. Cruz: -- apparently the navy was using the same spectrum band, causing the interference and spectrum advisories. Even though the faa had previously warned the navy and secret service against using that specific spectrum band due to interference risks. Acting administrator, is that correct?
▶ 1:12:51Mr. Rocheleau: That's correct, sir.
▶ 1:12:54Sen. Cruz: Let me just say that this is deeply disturbing that just a month after 67 people died on an approach to dcaa, the secret service and the pentagon would inadvertently cause multiple flights to receive urgent cockpit alerts recommending evasive action. It's inappropriate for such testing to occur at dcaa, given the facts of what occurred.
▶ 1:13:23Sen. Cruz: I expect this committee to investigate why, precisely, that happened. General, I want to turn to your testimony. Chairman moran and I sent you a letter asking a series of specific questions on the 11th of march. This week, the army responded with a one page information paper. There were however specific questions in the letter that were not answered.
▶ 1:14:00Sen. Cruz: How frequently does the army turn off adsb after transmission?
▶ 1:14:05Gen. Braman: Chairman cruz, as I stated in the discussion, it must have national security information, to be able to do that.
▶ 1:14:22Sen. Cruz: You are not answering my question. My question is how frequently is adsb ads-b out turned off?
▶ 1:14:36Gen. Braman: I can tell you that the majority of the missions that they fly are associated with national security.
▶ 1:14:42Sen. Cruz: Is it accurate that ads-b out this turned out for 100% of missions?
▶ 1:14:58Gen. Braman: You are referring to the june 8 letter. In the context of missions, meaning the operations that the 12 aviation supports in their requirements, I would call that accurate. I would not say it's accurate of 100% of the flights being flown by the organization.
▶ 1:15:19Sen. Cruz: I want to understand what you mean by missions. Does missions capture training flights?
▶ 1:15:26Gen. Braman: Only training flights that would have been operating in a location that is sensitive as part of the governing operations.
▶ 1:15:35Sen. Cruz: That would be all of them around dcaa, correct?
▶ 1:15:39Gen. Braman: Only specific sites.
▶ 1:15:42Sen. Cruz: And one page where you said 75% of the flights our mission rehearsal readiness flights, are those operated with ads-b out off?
▶ 1:16:00Gen. Braman: They are.
▶ 1:16:01Sen. Cruz: Right now the army is flying helicopters around dca airport with ads-b out off, correct?
▶ 1:16:10Gen. Braman: With northcom, that is correct.
▶ 1:16:13Sen. Cruz: I have to say I find that shocking. And deeply unacceptable. I want to encourage the army right now to revisit that policy and revisit that policy today. I can tell you, if the army chooses not to, I have a high level of confidence that congress will pass legislation mandating revisiting the policy.
▶ 1:16:41Sen. Cruz: If today another accident occurs over dca with another helicopter that had ads-b out turned off, the army will have very direct responsibility for that. I am at a loss to come up with any justification for risking the lives of the traveling public with that decision. You can't change the decisions made yesterday. You can change the decisions going forward.
▶ 1:17:10Sen. Cruz: It is my understanding that the army has a memo, august 9 of 2024, entitled ads-b out off operations in the national airspace. My staff requested the memo from you and my understanding is your team declined to provide it. That is also unacceptable. I want to ask you at this hearing, will you commit to providing that memo to this committee?
▶ 1:17:33Gen. Braman: I will commit to reviewing the information and getting what we can to you, absolutely.
▶ 1:17:38Sen. Cruz: That answer needs to be yes. That you will provide the memo to this committee.
▶ 1:17:47Gen. Braman: Senator, I will review that and we will look at the ability to get it to the committee.
▶ 1:17:53Sen. Cruz: If it is not provided within 24 hours, I am confident you will have a senior commanding officer give you a direct order to provide that memo to this committee. I just want to underscore that there is no reason the army has to wait for the conclusion of the ntsb report to revisit your policy on ads-b out. You can do so right now.
▶ 1:18:24Sen. Cruz: I've got to tell you, I spent this morning looking in the eyes of family members who lost family members. I don't know how I would do it tomorrow to another room of family members who lost loved ones because yet another helicopter was flying with ads-b out. I cannot urge you more strongly, change that policy right now.
▶ 1:18:46Chair Moran: Senator cantwell?
▶ 1:18:51Senator Cantwell: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I would ask for the same memo. You might want to follow along the same line as senator cruz. I would also like to associate myself with the information being requested on spectrum interference. It's one of the reasons I think spectrum fights are so important . I think the agencies with adjacency had issues, we can't leave it up to the flying public. But I want to go back.
▶ 1:19:21Senator Cantwell: Brigadier general, in your testimony you mentioned that we have the additive dialogue that we just heard, you said it's not allowed. You are saying it's not allowed. Ads-b out is not allowed, that's what you said earlier in your testimony. In addition to the homes letter, you basically stated that using ads-b out, it's not like it was not allowed.
▶ 1:19:49Gen. Braman: Army policy is that ads-b out is not to be used for routine.
▶ 1:19:55Sen. Cantwell: Acting administrator, did you know this? Did the faa know, did they know and understand and absorb this? Allowing a flight to go within 75 feet of each other and there was no signaling message already identified as a safety measure, that being something we have had as a requirement?
▶ 1:20:20Mr. Rocheleau: My understanding is that we had an agreement with the department of defense.
▶ 1:20:28Sen. Cantwell: The brigadier general was pretty clear this morning, we don't allow it. I'm pretty sure that their attitude is going to be that we don't allow it. He's going to say that they would rather have a route somewhere where they can fly without it. That's what he's going to say. That's a separate issue over here.
▶ 1:20:55Sen. Cantwell: In their application, he kind of made it sound like it's not going to be that routine, but he is very clear, they are never turning it on if they don't have to. They are never turning it on. What I don't understand is why the faa didn't understand that. Why you would allow this design, this is the wrong design.
▶ 1:21:18Sen. Cantwell: Whoever said you could fly in this airspace this close together without a safety feature that was already being required by the faa and then giving them an exemption makes no sense. So, why did you allow it to happen?
▶ 1:21:31Mr. Rocheleau: I can't speak to by the previous administration may have allowed for that memorandum of agreement, which is why we effective today will require in any class b airspace ads-b out to be turned on except in very limited circumstances.
▶ 1:21:49Sen. Cantwell: What are they? Other agencies? Are there other agencies doing this? Mr. rocheleau: we have 46 helicopter operators within the region and they will not require ads-b out ads-b oun to be out.
▶ 1:22:10Sen. Cantwell: What other agencies are operating this way?
▶ 1:22:16Sen. Cantwell: A number of --
▶ 1:22:19Mr. Rocheleau: A number of military units, local law enforcement's, department of justice, fbi, the park police, a number of different agencies. Those are the entities we are working closely with now to make sure, first and foremost, they understand the new restrictions.
▶ 1:22:39Sen. Cantwell: Two they have exemptions?
▶ 1:22:41Mr. Rocheleau: Some of them do.
▶ 1:22:43Sen. Cantwell: Are you concerned about this?
▶ 1:22:46Mr. Rocheleau: Absolutely, that's why we immediately put in place that requirement.
▶ 1:22:54Sen. Cantwell: You think that homeland security is operating that way?
▶ 1:22:58Mr. Rocheleau: They are operating, effective today.
▶ 1:23:03Sen. Cantwell: Effective today?
▶ 1:23:05Mr. Rocheleau: Yes.
▶ 1:23:07Sen. Cantwell: For the last month, you have known, as I am submitting for the record it says under the federal aviation waiver that all U.S. custom border protection air and marine operations in the capital region basically have this exemption as well? I want to understand, if people were still flying in this airspace, we all fly in and out of this airspace.
▶ 1:23:36Sen. Cantwell: Do we now have to worry about other operators in this airspace that may be doing the same thing that happened with the military? Now you are telling me I'm taking action today?
▶ 1:23:48Mr. Rocheleau: Immediately afterwards to put the restrictions in place. It's in the same airspace. Today we are requiring ads-b out to be on. Previous to today, the fixed wing helicopters were not allowed in the airspace.
▶ 1:24:09Sen. Cantwell: Now today you are going to say to homeland security that you have to have ads-b o, basically the automatic surveillance broadcast system on, you are today?
▶ 1:24:26Mr. Rocheleau: That's correct. For any of the class b airspace that you can see in the graphic, in the red airspace, that's required.
▶ 1:24:36Sen. Cantwell: Acting administrator, you are not building faith in this system of oversight in the faa if you are telling me that we now have a bunch of other operators in this airspace that you have now said after the accident were prohibited but now you are going to turn it back on and if they meet this requirement, we have letters from them thinking they are exempted. I want to see this rule. This would have been a great debate with Mr. bradberry before the committee.
▶ 1:25:04Sen. Cantwell: The american people, these poor families, have lost loved ones. This is not their day job. It is your day job. It is the day job of the faa not to allow these exemptions to become prolific and everybody uses them and then us have to sit here and figure out how to do our oversight job of you to make sure that these details are exposed when we can't even get a memo from some of these agencies . Mr. chairman, I know my time has expired, but I will come for a second round with, live the.
▶ 1:25:41Sen. Cantwell: The ntsb has been clear on the requirements and its $40,000 to assist one planes. You could probably equip the whole fleet from $100 million. I guarantee that the family lives are worth that. Thank you.
▶ 1:26:05Chair Moran: Before recognizing senator budd, does the faa have the authority to supersede the operations of the army and these other agencies in the airspace around airports? We haven't gotten the army to say they are going to do this with their own policy, but you say they are mandating it. Do the army and others have to follow your mandate?
▶ 1:26:31Mr. Rocheleau: Sir, they do, yes.
▶ 1:26:34Sen. Budd: First and foremost, I want to offer my condolences and prayers to all the families who are here today. I am saddened that so many north carolinians were lost in this accident, including the captain and the four members of the 53 42 charlotte base flight crew.
▶ 1:26:58Sen. Budd: Samuel lilley, jonathan campos, I'm sorry for the loss of so many kansans as well. Thank you for organizing this hearing. Thank you for your work so far. On page nine it states that the multipurpose flight recorders are bringing altitude conflicted with other altitude readings.
▶ 1:27:25Sen. Budd: Ultimately, this conflict let your team to a pressure altitude reading. Can you provide any details on the differing altitude readings? Do you have any update on whether this conflicting data was limited as it was provided to the flight crew and was perhaps a confusing factor?
▶ 1:27:46Ms. Homendy: We are still looking into that in doing some testing. I will say that the pressure altitude was determined invalid on the black hawk, because we would expect that to be somewhat similar to the cr j. But it was much lower, so we determined it was invalid and it couldn't be used to calculate the barometric altitude.
▶ 1:28:13Ms. Homendy: We would need two sets of data, pressure altitude and barometric pressure setting. We had the pressure setting. We don't have the pressure, sorry, pressure altitude data for that. So, we can't, we were not able to determine from that what the barometric altitude was of the black hawk. However, we are looking at other data.
▶ 1:28:47Sen. Budd: Thank you. General braman, they were operating pilot standardization at the time of the mission. How vital are the missions to readiness for government operations?
▶ 1:29:12Gen. Braman: 75% of the missions flown are under continuity of government exercises and making sure crews can get that accomplished.
▶ 1:29:29Sen. Budd: Can the army continue to fulfill transformations without access?
▶ 1:29:40Gen. Braman: In the working groups it will help us continue routing in the missions and I'm confident we can continue to do that.
▶ 1:29:52Sen. Budd: Is the permanent closure of route 4 around dca?
▶ 1:29:58Ms. Homendy: In the permanent closure, when runways five and three are in use, that was our recommendation to the faa Sen.
▶ 1:30:10Budd: . Thank you. The aviation investigation report from ntsb shows the separation would have a mere 75 separation on route four, hugging the shoreline of the potomac prior to the 29th where
▶ 1:30:42Budd: They were relying solely on the tower?
▶ 1:30:44Mr. Rocheleau: The faa was aware of the design of that airspace. As of december 29. I would say that's one of the reasons we immediately restricted that airspace after the incident, to review the circumstances around the airspace itself.
▶ 1:31:05Mr. Rocheleau: In addition to that, it's one of the reasons we are looking at hotspots or mixed traffic areas around the nation, whether that is boston, dallas, los angeles, and anchorage.
▶ 1:31:17Sen. Budd: Thank you.
▶ 1:31:19Ms. Homendy: There is a D.C. helicopter working group that we have been trying to figure out who is part of the working group and get minutes and documents from that working group to see what information was shared and what was discussed over the years. We have not been able to obtain that yet.
▶ 1:31:42Sen. Budd: Are you a part of Ms.
▶ 1:31:46Homendy: The working group?
▶ 1:31:46Ms. Homendy: We are not.
▶ 1:31:47Sen. Budd: And they are willing to provide what they find?
▶ 1:31:49Ms. Homendy: We have requested information and have not been able to identify who is a part of the working group. Firmly. And get documents as a part of the working group. We have requested all of that information, we do want to evaluate what was the. We want to faa cartographers.
▶ 1:32:18Ms. Homendy: It's the maximum for the commercial aircraft.
▶ 1:32:30Sen. Budd: Thank you.
▶ 1:32:32Chair Moran: Let me see if I can help.
▶ 1:32:34Ms. Homendy: That's a hard job.
▶ 1:32:37Chair Moran: You are very good at public relations with senators and we recognize the challenges you face. Do either one of you belong to this working group? Does the army or faa participate? Can you answer that?
▶ 1:32:53Ms. Homendy: It is the faa working group. What's the problem?
▶ 1:33:03Mr. Rocheleau: I'm happy to work on this investigation and work with the chair to make sure they receive the information and follow up on it.
▶ 1:33:17Chair Moran: Is there a reason ntsb can't share that information?
▶ 1:33:21Mr. Rocheleau: I will talk to my folks when we get back.
▶ 1:33:24Chair Moran: Thank you.
▶ 1:33:27Chair Moran: Is the army part of this working group as well?
▶ 1:33:31Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, senator.
▶ 1:33:33Ms. Homendy: There are apparently 17 entities a part of the working group, we just haven't been able to verify who all the entities are.
▶ 1:33:42Chair Moran: Surely the faa is in charge and they can help you.
▶ 1:33:48Mr. Rocheleau: I would have been happy to understand that before today.
▶ 1:33:52Chair Moran: Is there a reason the working group efforts can't be known by ntsb?
▶ 1:33:57Gen. Braman: Absolutely not.
▶ 1:33:59Chair Moran: Let me follow-up. Mr. rocheleau indicated that the faa has the authority to require ads-b out. Do you agree with that assessment, that the faa can make this decision and if you don't follow the faa policies, then you are precluded from the airspace?
▶ 1:34:20Gen. Braman: The army operates 100% under faa authority.
▶ 1:34:25Chair Moran: Very good. Let me turn to, to perhaps the next steps or new information. For this I will go to chair how many. Since the report we are discussing is two weeks old, what has transpired, if anything , in those two weeks? Have you discovered any new or relevant information you can share with us?
▶ 1:34:53Ms. Homendy: Where would you like me to begin? One thing I can say on ads-b out off, that's a policy of the army. But we are also still looking at installation programming and potential for equipment malfunction.
▶ 1:35:13Ms. Homendy: The reason I mention this is because the accident helicopter, for this accident helicopter no ads-b out ads-b o data had been received r 730 days prior to the accident. That was abnormal. So, we began looking at the fleet for the battalion. The battalion had 25 helicopters. That includes this particular helicopter.
▶ 1:35:42Ms. Homendy: Nine of them were night models and all were transmitting ads-b out when they were turned on because we have to verify that it's working. There were 16 lemurs, including the accident helicopter, which we are still looking at, but seven were transmitting when ads-b out was turned on. Eight were not. Stopped doing so sometime between may and november of 2023. We don't know why.
▶ 1:36:13Ms. Homendy: Five of those started transmitting since the issue was identified and began working with the army to try to isolate the reason. I just want to let you know that you can have ads-b out on, but you also have to make sure that it is working.
▶ 1:36:29Chair Moran: You indicated working with the army, but there are other participants in the arena. Were you narrowing it to the army as if something is necessarily wrong there, or more broadly is there a problem in receiving the information?
▶ 1:36:47Ms. Homendy: For this we wanted to look at the fleet for the battalion to see if whether general braman -- to see if whether ads-b out when turned on was transmitting data, because we thought it was abnormal for the helicopter involved to not transmit data for so long.
▶ 1:37:07Chair Moran: Any explanation, general?
▶ 1:37:10Gen. Braman: This is exactly the value of the investigation. Things that you would not normally look at that are being determined here and that will help us with any policy changes that we need as a result of the investigation and certainly the ntsb has the end -- the expertise to do that.
▶ 1:37:30Chair Moran: What we are hearing from Ms. homendy is that it may be transmitting and on, but no receipt, a technical problem, it's not providing the information it is supposed to provide?
▶ 1:37:43Gen. Braman: Obviously, the functionality of any army equipment is important to me. If we are discovering a challenge there, we will take direct action, absolutely.
▶ 1:37:56Chair Moran: This is not inconsequential.
▶ 1:37:59Ms. Homendy: It's not. For the public watching, as ads-b out broadcasts once per second, once for second as opposed to four seconds to six seconds for radar, which is significant when you have converging aircraft.
▶ 1:38:19Chair Moran: Mr. rocheleau, you indicated that as of today there's been a change in policy at faa. I would be interested to know if it's only related to dca airspace, or if you are making those requirements, putting those requirements in place for other airports.
▶ 1:38:38Mr. Rocheleau: Thank you, senator. The requirements announced today are affected for the D.C. class b airspace immediately. Part of our ongoing work, as I related earlier with respect to hotspots and mixed traffic that we have seen that could be problematic, those are areas where we are looking at kind of adding that requirement in.
▶ 1:39:02Mr. Rocheleau: It seems premature along the lines of the way airspace is structured in different locations that we need to focus before acting too quickly. So, we want to make sure that as we are looking at the different air spaces and how they are constructed that we are taking kind of intentional careful action.
▶ 1:39:24Chair Moran: And that intentional action is underway?
▶ 1:39:29Mr. Rocheleau: Absolutely. Wherever we find a risk, we will mitigate it immediately.
▶ 1:39:37Chair Moran: It sounds like your answer would be lengthy about what you have learned and I will come back to you after recognizing the two senators to my left.
▶ 1:39:51Senator Duckworth: Thank you. I want to follow up on what the chairman was talking about, ads-b out and whether it was transmitting data because it wasn't received. Will we be able to check that with all the other rotary wing operators in the region as well? Is that something that the faa should be mandating? Can they do that? The other operators are not a part of this accident, correct? And my question for Mr.
▶ 1:40:16Senator Duckworth: Rocheleau, will you be, will the faa be directing all of the other helicopter operators, homeland security, local law enforcement, have this exemption, will you be directing that they test their equipment to make sure it is actually transmitting the receivable data?
▶ 1:40:34Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, that's a part of our ongoing work in the collaboration between operators and how we make sure that they understand the requirement that their equipment is functional.
▶ 1:40:47Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. I wanted to follow-up on my earlier questioning about the faa air traffic controller workforce. You had committed to looking at the list of names I gave you and would be giving you for the air traffic controllers who are waiting for medical review.
▶ 1:41:05Sen. Duckworth: I would like for you to commit to reporting back to me in writing about how many controllers around the country are waiting for medical clearances so that they can return to work and what the faa is doing to make sure that these reviews are happening in a timely manner.
▶ 1:41:19Mr. Rocheleau: I will commit to that.
▶ 1:41:23Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. In the race for higher air traffic controllers, the staffing was adequate on that, but we could have used more, obviously. In the race, I want to make sure that the faa does not lower your long-standing high standards for air traffic controllers. There could be a temptation to sacrifice effectiveness for efficiency, but the faa must stick to stringent standards to protect safety.
▶ 1:41:51Sen. Duckworth: Can you assure this committee that as the administration works to hire more controllers that you will not lower the high standards currently required of individuals to become certified? Plenty of places, many in kansas, have the expertise to help us train the controllers as long as we keep the high standards.
▶ 1:42:10Mr. Rocheleau: 100%. Part of our ongoing activity is to look for the best and brightest are going to continue to do.
▶ 1:42:21Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. I go back.
▶ 1:42:24Chair Moran: To follow walk on -- follow up on the senator, you should look to kansas. I am going to turn to senator schmitt in just one second. The senator from illinois was asking about routine maintenance in determining whether equipment is working. Do you have a standard in place around what the chairwoman said?
▶ 1:42:50Chair Moran: It doesn't make sense to me, that you wouldn't know that there were problems with the transmission or the equipment. Is there a protocol in place to get that equipment it inspected on a continuing basis?
▶ 1:43:03Gen. Braman: Certainly with general aviation operations we have protocol for status of aircraft. I will have to get back to you on for the protocol is to make sure that ads-b out transmissions outside the aircraft are being received. I will have to look at how we are doing that.
▶ 1:43:21Chair Moran: And if the protocol is being followed?
▶ 1:43:23Gen. Braman: Absolutely.
▶ 1:43:25Sen. Schmitt: Thank you, Mr. chairman. My friend from illinois would agree, I certainly don't want to see us reduce standards. I guess following in that same spirit, with Mr. -- with Mr. rocheleau, can you commit that no hiring decisions will be made based on race?
▶ 1:43:48Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, sir. Again, we are looking for the best and brightest and are prioritizing those who are best qualified.
▶ 1:43:58Sen. Schmitt: As you know, there is a lawsuit by 1000 folks claiming they didn't get a job because of the race.
▶ 1:44:05Mr. Rocheleau: We are all about making sure the best in the brightest are there.
▶ 1:44:09Sen. Schmitt: Great to hear. I did want to ask, general, I apologize if this has been asked before, they are running us in and out of here to different committee hearings, armed services. I did want to ask, this was a very strong crew. In the blackhawk.
▶ 1:44:35Sen. Schmitt: Is it -- is it typical -- I guess, is it a problem, is it typical and is it a problem to have someone who is a lower rank , this is my understanding, that the evaluator was a lower rank than the pilot? Is that a typical situation? Is it problematic? Not a pilot -- not a problem? Do you think it contributed?
▶ 1:44:56Gen. Braman: Thank you for the question. It is extremely typical because of the preponderance of our force are warned officers. Professional aviators, that is what they do for their career. Instructor pilots, test pilots, safety officers, commissioned officers, all filling roles of leadership in the organization. It's very routine to have a senior member being evaluated by a junior member.
▶ 1:45:23Sen. Schmitt: I'm sure that you have gone through this analysis. In the spirit of making sure that we are getting this right in moving forward, you don't think there is a systemic problem associated with someone with a lower rank saying someone does something to someone of a higher rank in those kinds of situations? You've gone through that analysis, I'm assuming?
▶ 1:45:44Gen. Braman: Absolutely. The personalities and capabilities of crew members are considered in that risk process for every single flight. Is it the right crew? Are they mixed properly? Commanders would know if there are issues as simple as they don't get along and commanders take that into account before approving a flight.
▶ 1:46:04Sen. Schmitt: I guess for the faa, maybe you have been asked this before, but clearly in the opening statement from the chairman, a number of the committee members, just of the report on the statistics on the number of near misses between helicopters and aircraft landing at dca, that you know, those operations have now been halted.
▶ 1:46:32Sen. Schmitt: Can you just explain to the american people why that didn't happen before?
▶ 1:46:39Mr. Rocheleau: Again, I will say that the reports that were coming in previously were certainly analyzed. But something was missed. Since that time, we have been using new tools available to us, artificial intelligence, machine learning, to be able to scan the tense end of millions of data points to be able to do that analysis in a more proactive and
▶ 1:47:11Mr. Rocheleau: Ideally at some point predictive way to head off and identify risk earlier and mitigate that risk.
▶ 1:47:17Sen. Schmitt: But this wasn't a new issue at dca? Right? This is an issue that had been a long-standing concern. Is that accurate?
▶ 1:47:26Mr. Rocheleau: It's accurate that a number of reports came in and as I said earlier, we investigate every single near midair collision and even as we talk about spectrum, as the chairman mentioned, we have teams that go out and assess the air space itself to make sure we are working with partners, on counter U.S. technology, to make sure the airspace is clear from interference.
▶ 1:47:54Sen. Schmitt: Moving forward as an obvious response to the tragedy that happened, I would be remiss not to express my condolences to the families who are here. I know everyone has. It's devastating for each and every one of you, including the folks back home. Advocacy matters. It will carry beyond today, right? This is important. I ask in the spirit of that, moving forward is that how you see things? That the state of play as it currently is now will continue?
▶ 1:48:24Mr. Rocheleau: Sir, we will continue to use our latest tools to be able to assess the data and work within the aviation ecosystem, if you will, to identify the risk early and mitigate the risk immediately.
▶ 1:48:37Sen. Schmitt: Thank you.
▶ 1:48:39Chair Moran: Mr. rocheleau:
▶ 1:48:43Chair Moran: Mr. rocheleau, at the moment, whether it is on or off is irrelevant, because there are no flights. You are announcing something that doesn't at the moment matter, because you have not lifted the ban on the flights. Is that true?
▶ 1:48:56Mr. Rocheleau: It's helpful to, if I can just point to the graphic, in the graphic I can explain that in the yellow section, that is where there is no mixed traffic. No helicopters, no fixed wing, except for those very few circumstances where we have emergency national security type traffic.
▶ 1:49:21Mr. Rocheleau: In the red section and in the red airspace is where ads-b out is now required. You will also notice where based on recommendations, where we have eliminated group four, down going north to south on the potomac, as well as route six, which you can see on the left side of the graphic, it was in effect from the west to the
▶ 1:49:54Mr. Rocheleau: East, where bowling air force base is.
▶ 1:49:55Chair Moran: I would like to think about that.
▶ 1:50:00Senator: If I could, for the record, I see we have several colleagues, to clarify on your point, acting administrator, we still have a rule that says they have an exemption. I know you are making a declaration today, but I don't think it supersedes the rule.
▶ 1:50:20Senator: Maybe the president will call all of these agencies and tell them to stand down, but legally, whenever the faa is doing today, it doesn't take precedent over that rule. When I come back for a second round?
▶ 1:50:36Ms. Homendy: I believe the faa can say --
▶ 1:50:40Sen. Cantwell: They can shut it down but I think that when it comes to the rule, his decision to say that the rule gave them exemption --
▶ 1:50:51Senator Duckworth: I think they can have an emergency directive, correct?
▶ 1:50:53Mr. Rocheleau: The agreement that we have in place with the helicopter operations that fly without it out isn't an actual memorandum of agreement, not a formal rule. It's an agreement that we have with the department of defense and other helicopter operators in the area.
▶ 1:51:13Sen. Cantwell: And we can get a copy of that?
▶ 1:51:16Mr. Rocheleau: Yes.
▶ 1:51:17Sen. Cantwell: Thank you.
▶ 1:51:19Chair Moran: Senator hickenlooper?
▶ 1:51:23Senator Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. chair. Earlier you testified that you looked at the places, the airports with higher volumes of mixed traffic. I think you mentioned boston, dallas, anchorage. That assessment, does that mean you have gone through all the airports? Other airports in large cities where we have a fair amount of mixed traffic, they are ok?
▶ 1:51:49Mr. Rocheleau: So, we have 10 locations, a total of 21 airports. We are doing this hot spot mixed traffic review across the nation , including in the anchorage area. We are reviewing all of the airspace designs to see where we may have this indicator of risk with mixed traffic. So, helicopter operations and fixed wing.
▶ 1:52:15Sen. Hickenlooper: So, that's not the full list I assume?
▶ 1:52:20Mr. Rocheleau: That's correct.
▶ 1:52:22Sen. Hickenlooper: So, when will this be done?
▶ 1:52:25Mr. Rocheleau: Obviously, 21 locations, I am receiving regular updates. I anticipate that being -- let's see -- I anticipate that activity being concluded in the next couple of weeks. I will tell you that our teams are being very intentional about how they go through that airspace. It's been built over time as it relates to helicopter routes and other approaching departure routes.
▶ 1:52:53Mr. Rocheleau: We are being very intentional and careful. We don't want to quickly with inducing additional risk.
▶ 1:52:59Sen. Hickenlooper: I understand that, but obviously time is of the essence in a situation like this. Even given a preliminary warning as a part of that assessment, that would be valuable.
▶ 1:53:11Mr. Rocheleau: Any indicator of emerging risk, we would take immediate action.
▶ 1:53:17Sen. Hickenlooper: Ms. homendy, in the past you have talked about workforce, making sure you are properly staffed. I think that this is a direct follow-up on that. Do we -- are we fully staffed? You are going to look at this entire incident. It's going to take the typical year and a half, two years, which drives a lot of my constituents crazy.
▶ 1:53:42Sen. Hickenlooper: Do you have a timeline for when you will finish the full incident report or whatever the legal description is? When that will happen?
▶ 1:53:51Ms. Homendy: We have committed to one year, barring unforeseen wert -- circumstances.
▶ 1:53:57Sen. Hickenlooper: And you have enough staffing?
▶ 1:54:00Ms. Homendy: We have 40 experts currently leading the investigation. It's a high workload, it's not their only investigation they are focused on, but they are very committed to this, we have an entire agency supporting them.
▶ 1:54:15Sen. Hickenlooper: We have an array of past reports, it varies dramatically, and I appreciate the fact that you are trying to accelerate this. I think it frustrates a lot of people that it takes so long -- how long does it take to gather the facts?
▶ 1:54:29Ms. Homendy: It is a complex investigation. Our investigations are very broad. There's a lot of information that can change over time. We are very fact-based, following the evidence. So, that's our credibility. We want to be exact when we issue something. I do have to congratulate our workforce.
▶ 1:54:53Ms. Homendy: When I came on as chair, we had well over 400, close to 500 reports that were 2, 3, four years old, they are now below two. That is significant. The complexity of the investigations and the fact that some things we don't have control over, like if we can't get access to evidence because a district attorney or law enforcement is prohibiting us in a certain situation, like with a highway crash, that can extend the timeline.
▶ 1:55:22Sen. Hickenlooper: Sure, I've seen that, but something like this were time is of the essence, I'm glad to hear that you have the workforce. Mr. rocheleau, in your testimony you highlighted some of the recent changes in hiring. Also especially in the training processes, to make sure that we have more qualified air traffic controllers in a full workforce.
▶ 1:55:51Sen. Hickenlooper: I know you are working with local colleges all over the country on that. Is that effective? Is that working? If we can accelerate that, we have a place in denver where we are turning out some of these members. Is that something you can ramp up?
▶ 1:56:07Mr. Rocheleau: I'm very interested in the sec. Has been clear with the public and myself that we need to surge the hiring and do it well. Back to the testing, the surge, bringing people in. As it relates to additional college initiatives, we have enhanced college training initiatives that we are using in, I believe, four universities right now.
▶ 1:56:32Mr. Rocheleau: We are working with them, with respect to advanced simulators and the like, to make sure that we can get more what we would call throughput, but more controllers through those schools and get them out to the local facilities, centers, towers.
▶ 1:56:49Sen. Hickenlooper: Right. I'm out of time. You'll back.
▶ 1:56:54And If You All: Let me start by saying that my heart goes out to the families and loved ones of the victims lost in the american airlines flight 5342 disaster at eca. And not long after that, unfortunately as well, the bearing air crash in alaska, flying over the norton sound area.
▶ 1:57:22And If You All: I am thankful to the chairman for holding this hearing and appreciate the,, faa, and dod focusing on the after action so that this doesn't happen again either here in D.C. or in my state. I do want to focus a bit on my state. The great state of alaska.
▶ 1:57:46And If You All: As I think all three of you know, we have very high rates of airplane crashes, highest in the country in airplane crash fatalities, which is why we launched with the ntsb's good work in 2020 and the faa's good work in 2020, the faa alaska safety initiative.
▶ 1:58:12And If You All: Last year in the faa reauthorization, I was able to include a number of provisions with the goal of reducing the rate of fatal aircraft accidents by 90%. That's a very ambitious goal and it requires the faa to maintain maintenance of weather equipment. So, Mr. administrator, I want to get to that topic. I was just home. It came up a lot.
▶ 1:58:43And If You All: There might be cancellations because of the weather. Operations and infrastructure reporting, it makes zero sense to me. I hope the federal government is not doing that. One of the things I was able to include in the bill were requirements for systematic improvements to the maintenance of our weather systems and advancing new technologies, including a mandate for the faa to take necessary actions to restore full connectivity of systems that are not able to disseminate information due to a
▶ 1:59:15And If You All: Telecommunications failure. We have telecommunications challenges in a state the size of mine. Can you talk to that, administrator? And then I would like to get an update, from your perspective, of where we are on the fawzi initiative. As you know, the secretary of transportation in our press conference that we all did together, and I appreciate your participating in that, has made this a very top priority of his.
▶ 1:59:45And If You All: Yet as we saw in alaska, we had a fatal crash that, hopefully, we are going to learn from. Can I ask you about the datalink telecoms weather reporting, which is a big deal for my state? I appreciate that -- Mr.
▶ 2:00:03Rocheleau: I appreciate that and the opportunity to talk more based on our previous conversation, your leadership, I traveled recently to alaska to go and understand more. I met with the lead investigator, along with my investigators, as they related to the bearing air tragedy.
▶ 2:00:21Sen. Sullivan: Thank you both for coming. I know it's not the easiest or closest state to get to from D.C., but it is important that you are showing my constituents that it matters.
▶ 2:00:32Mr. Rocheleau: I agree, sir, it's very important, and I understand having been there a number of times, the unique nature of alaska, the typography and the need for safe aviation operations.
▶ 2:00:47Mr. Rocheleau: So, related to, again, reauthorization and the commitment to work, to have better communications throughout alaska, one of the initiatives, one of the reasons I went to anchorage was to understand more about how the maintenance issues and connectivity issues, whether that is on the telco side or satellite, one of the things we are doing now, and I met with our own technical operations people in the area, to test star
▶ 2:01:18Mr. Rocheleau: Link. So, satellite. Because of the unique nature of it, and the difficulty with telco, we needed another solution. One of the ways that we believed we could do that was using satellite-based technology, so that is what we are experimenting with right now.
▶ 2:01:36Sen. Sullivan: By the way, I appreciate it. The press went kind of crazy. Star link, that's actually really helpful for us. We appreciate that the secretary called to say that they would be connecting some of these terminals through star link because it was the most effective way to do it. I appreciated it, I appreciated that you guys were working at. Can you or the madam chair give me an update on the fawzi initiative?
▶ 2:02:04Sen. Sullivan: In any preliminary findings you are finding from the ntsb preliminary report on the bearing air crash?
▶ 2:02:14Chair Moran: Senator, this needs to be your last question.
▶ 2:02:17Sen. Sullivan: It, Mr. chairman.
▶ 2:02:19Ms. Homendy: We are still working on that investigation, of course. The preliminary report was issued and did fine, the aircraft was over 1000 pounds overweight. We are also going to be looking at the center of gravity on that airplane and the sea how that factored in. We are really focused in on whether that test of whether that day as well.
▶ 2:02:48Ms. Homendy: As you noted, the weather infrastructure is critical for alaska and we have a number of recommendations, as well as the importance of pilot reports and air traffic control and weather conditions to pass the information along to other pilots in the area and we are looking at that as a part of this investigation in particular.
▶ 2:03:16Sen. Sullivan: Thank you.
▶ 2:03:17Chair Moran: I don't want to diminish the circumstances of alaskans and the circumstances thank you as the senator represent. We are trying to get everybody's questions in before the vote closes.
▶ 2:03:36Senator: Thank you, Mr. chairman. I know that there -- there are those watching at home, including those of the family of wendy jo shaffer, mom of two little kids, her husband, we lost her. Thank you for your work, I know how complicated these are, these investigations.
▶ 2:03:58Senator: Can you talk about any open recommendations on communications that don't come out of this that the ntsb, I know you have over 1000 open safety recommendations. While the investigation is ongoing, just open recommendations related to technology and anything that would improve communication?
▶ 2:04:20Ms. Homendy: Related to the investigation?
▶ 2:04:23Sen. Klobuchar: Not related.
▶ 2:04:24Ms. Homendy: Ok. We have a number that remain open, including recommendations that were issued to the faa on communications in particular. I mean, one thing I will mention that we haven't talked about that we are looking at as a part of this investigation is, are, is our long-standing belief that ads-b out ads-b o in needs to be mandated by the faa.
▶ 2:04:54Ms. Homendy: We don't know what relevance that has two investigation, yet, however, it is a long-standing position of the ntsb. It will provide key information to pilots. In 2008 in our comments for notice of proposed rulemaking to the faa where they decided not to requirement, we we said that it would provide an immediate and substantial contribution to safety.
▶ 2:05:22Ms. Homendy: Just a couple of years ago, and we t a couple of years ago, and we just ouple of years ago, and we just talked f years ago, and we just talked aboutrs ago, and we just talked about s ago, and we just talked about alaska and we just talked about alaska, nd we just talked about alaska, we investigated a midair collision in ketchikan. We reiterated -- this is the statement -- that ntsb remains concerned that without a requirement to install and use ads be supported airport traffic advisories, midair collisions will continue to occur. That was in 2019.
▶ 2:05:52Ms. Homendy: So, we will look at that as a part of this investigation.
▶ 2:05:55Sen. Klobuchar: Thank you. We all know that full funding of the faa couldn't be more important. Last year we passed the bipartisan faa bill to improve aviation workforce training. And actually, senator braun, no governor, and I, had the bill to require the faa to conduct maximum hiring of traffic controllers at the academy. I guess I would ask you, as acting director, Mr.
▶ 2:06:22Sen. Klobuchar: Rocheleau, you discussed in your testimony the efforts that secretary duffy has taken to bolster the air traffic workforce. I think that 91% of air traffic control facilities operate below recommended staffing levels. I think they are some 3000 short . This is the number I got from some of the people who do this work. Can you talk to the current state of staffing and how you plan to maintain recruiting levels?
▶ 2:06:53Sen. Klobuchar: I believe we had an increase last year.
▶ 2:06:55Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, thank you for the question. It's an important issue for the secretary and myself as we look at the safety of the national aerospace system in general, but certainly as we are looking to bring in the best and brightest controllers into the airspace system to make sure that providing that safety for americans as they travel through the air, I would say that as a result of this surge, we had over 10,000 applications.
▶ 2:07:27Mr. Rocheleau: Over 8000 of them have now been referred to testing. We have streamlined the process and cut roughly five months off of it. Going forward, we intend to have upcoming D.C. academy classes. I would also say that we expect our partnerships with other universities, schools and universities, to be able to be more people into the career field itself. It's an exciting career.
▶ 2:07:54Mr. Rocheleau: Even incentivizing students to come to oklahoma city with an additional 30%. We have put all of our focus on this effort, in addition to the many other things we have going on. Controller hiring is of paramount importance.
▶ 2:08:07Sen. Klobuchar: Very good. As you know, we have very active airports in minnesota, major hub. I would ask you to look at the duluth air traffic control tower as it's the oldest in the nation, secretary duffy is aware of it, it's a major air base up there as well. The representative and I have been working together on that. Anyway, last question, the importance of pulling funding the faa, quickly.
▶ 2:08:40Ms. Homendy: I can talk about fully funding the ntsb. I mean, you are important, but we did get an increase in funding that I do want to thank you for, 100 and 45, and anomaly. Fully staffing the ntsb. Right now we are at 400 27. We went down in the last couple of months because people left. We will be able to go up to 450.
▶ 2:09:07Ms. Homendy: Fully staffing the ntsb to accomplish our mission would be requiring -- would be having 485 and 500 personnel, which requires resources, so as you consider the fy 26, that would be helpful.
▶ 2:09:21Sen. Klobuchar: It is.
▶ 2:09:22Mr. Rocheleau: It's fully critical for the workforce and for our facilities and equipment. The situation is quite concerning to me, as I review over 30% of our facilities being unsustainable going forward. We have to invest in the infrastructure going forward.
▶ 2:09:41Sen. Klobuchar: I know it is no solace to the families, but knowing that you are stepping back to look at all of this right now, other tragedies can be avoided, so thank you very much.
▶ 2:09:58Chair Moran: Gives me the opportunity to editorialize, we need to pass bills and not to continue using continuing resolutions. Directed not necessarily at my colleagues, but my colleagues generally. Senator duckworth?
▶ 2:10:15Senator Duckworth: I agree with your last payment. Two quick questions. General braman, I've never had a warrant officer tell me when I am doing something wrong. Speaking to crew resource management and how it works in an air, especially if it was speaking about senator schmitt, not just the two pilots, but the role of the crew chief, do they have the ability to speak up as well?
▶ 2:10:43Gen. Braman: There is nothing more important in an air crew than resource management and that is taught from day one. Everyone has a voice. Obviously, the pilot in command is the one designated with the authority to command the aircraft, but I have never been in an aircraft that was ever in an environment where all members want a valuable member of the team and we rely on them all to accomplish our missions.
▶ 2:11:08Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. I'm wrapping up by saying how important it is to fund and resource the ntsb. You guys do amazing work. You yourself, chairwoman, often I will call you after something happens and you are already on the ground there. You need the resources to do your work. We are seeing from this investigation how critical it is to find out what happened in order to prevent future accidents. I can't agree more that we should be funding.
▶ 2:11:38Sen. Duckworth: I also think we need to look at the facilities at the faa and talk to that. I would love to get your commitment to come out and tour the facilities in the chicagoland area and see the condition of the repair they are in.
▶ 2:11:49Mr. Rocheleau: I can commit to that.
▶ 2:11:51Sen. Duckworth: With that, I'm turning it back over to the chairman, who has been generous.
▶ 2:11:57Chair Moran: Thank you. I'm going to ask a couple of tidbits and I hope they are important questions. I hope they will be short so that I can go vote. I think that senator duckworth will close out the hearing in my absence. First of all, the fact that ads-b out, there is evidence that transmissions were not received. Apparently, the army doesn't know if they were received.
▶ 2:12:26Chair Moran: Why doesn't the faa know if they were received?
▶ 2:12:30Mr. Rocheleau: I'm not aware of that. I know it's a part of the ongoing investigation. I don't believe that we receive any helicopter information from the army.
▶ 2:12:41Chair Moran: But somebody has to be reporting that they were sent to not received, reported to you?
▶ 2:12:47Mr. Rocheleau: That's part of the investigation. My assumption would be the army.
▶ 2:12:55Sen. Duckworth: The army could have it turned on, but I think the chairman's saying that the receiving station got no data, the army got it turned on and they don't know it's not receiving. This is about communication between the agencies.
▶ 2:13:10Chair Moran: The senator said it exactly right.
▶ 2:13:17Sen. Duckworth: On my behalf. I said that you were generous.
▶ 2:13:18Chair Moran: I think that my concluding question, and then I recognize senator markey, the current state, what is the current state of operations at tca? How are they different today than they were on january the 29th.
▶ 2:13:42Mr. Rocheleau: Immediately afterwards, we restricted the air space in the previous graphic. It was for mixed traffic. No helicopters or fixed wing will be in that the box, if you will. The yellow boxes. In the red section --
▶ 2:14:02Chair Moran: That is still true today?
▶ 2:14:04Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, and that's permanent. We have eliminated groups four and six, the crossing going over to bowling air force base.
▶ 2:14:14Chair Moran: Any other changes? I would ask about number of flights. It appears that there are fewer flights utilizing reagan national airport?
▶ 2:14:31Mr. Rocheleau: Yes, sir. A lot of that was to run it at what we would call a 30 rate. 30 arrivals per hour. We are doing that largely in partnership -- I mean, we received great information from the ntsb regarding some of their feedback that they received during their preliminary investigation regarding the workload on the controllers themselves. Obviously, a tragic event has an effect.
▶ 2:15:01Mr. Rocheleau: These people come to work every day and care about what they do. We reduced the rate down to 26 and we slowly moved back to 30.
▶ 2:15:10Chair Moran: Will that stay constant or change in the future?
▶ 2:15:14Mr. Rocheleau: Right now, that is constant.
▶ 2:15:17Chair Moran: For the foreseeable future. Is it 30, 32?
▶ 2:15:24Mr. Rocheleau: We plan to maintain that at 30 until we can assess the safety of going to a higher rate.
▶ 2:15:31Chair Moran: Senator markey, are you ok if I continue just a moment? I often, almost without exception when sharing a hearing, ask the witnesses at the end the conclusion of the hearing. Is there anything you want to correct that you didn't say, as you wish to say it? Something you want to make sure that we hear? Then it will turn the conducting of the hearing over the senator duckworth.
▶ 2:15:59Ms. Homendy: That's when my staff cringed to chime in. I know there's a lot of focus on the faa. I know they are very focused on safety. We have been in communication constantly since the accident.
▶ 2:16:20Ms. Homendy: I would say that one area we are really looking at also is how the army evaluates when there is a reporting of close calls. Do they get those reports, the army? How do they communicate? At the battalion level, how do they communicate and talk about safety? How do they evaluate safety? Are they getting reports?
▶ 2:16:47Ms. Homendy: Are they monitoring their own helicopters that might exceed altitude levels? So far we have found that a lot of the conversation around safety discussions at the battalion level are focused on slips, trips, and falls. There is a disconnect on some of the discussion around safety and safety assurance from the army as a whole versus the battalion levels. So, we are really looking at that.
▶ 2:17:16Chair Moran: Please answer this question, but in my absence.
▶ 2:17:20Mr. Rocheleau: Sir, I appreciate the opportunity. I want to make it crystal clear that something was missed with the dca crash. I take that seriously. I take that upon myself. I returned to the faa just two months ago because I care about the national aerospace system safety and workforce and I'm dedicated to continuing that work.
▶ 2:17:44Mr. Rocheleau: I will continue to review what I mentioned before, with respect to the hot spots working closely with ntsb to learn what happened and make sure it never happens again.
▶ 2:17:58Sen. Duckworth: Mr. markey will ask the next question, he will miss his roll call vote if he doesn't. Mr. markey?
▶ 2:18:11This -- Senator Markey: Thank you. I want to take a moment to express my deepest condolences to the families who lost loved ones in the tragic crash in january. Your pain is unimaginable. Your presence here today is a powerful reminder of the lives that were so suddenly and unfairly taken. I want to specifically note the individuals from the skating club of boston who passed away in this crash.
▶ 2:18:43This -- Senator Markey: Spencer lane, christine lane, jinna han, jin han, we had a similar plane crash in boston that devastated the city. The trauma to the city and your families is great.
▶ 2:19:13This -- Senator Markey: Please know that we agree with you and are committed to finding answers and accountability in honor of those who you have lost. Ms. homendy, thank you in the entire ntsb team for your work in investigating this crash. I want to discuss the altitude of the black hawk helicopter noted in the preliminary report.
▶ 2:19:37This -- Senator Markey: A few minutes before the crash it was indicated that the helicopter flew at an altitude of 300 feet while the -- other pilot said it was at 400 feet. The report also found helicopters may have been above the altitude restriction in over half of the near misses triggering an advisory on the traffic alert and collision avoidance systems.
▶ 2:19:59This -- Senator Markey: In your experience, are altitude discrepancies like this common and are you concerned that blackhawk alternators may have a systemic problem?
▶ 2:20:09Ms. Homendy: This barometric altimeter, we have done substantial examination on it. We don't think we are going to get much from this altimeter, because there was such damage. We will have to look at other data. But I think it is too early to really say what the discrepancy was, or whether it was a discrepancy.
▶ 2:20:33Ms. Homendy: There was no information, other than 1.1 nautical miles west of the key bridge, when the pilot flying said I'm at 300 and the pilot instructor said I have you at four. There was no further discussion of why. There is a lot of work that still has to be done.
▶ 2:20:52Sen. Markey: Mr. rocheleau, on a related issue, elon musk recently made alarmist claims about the faa air traffic control communication systems. He said that the faa assessment is single digit months to catastrophic failure, putting air traffic safety at serious risk. The situation is extremely dire.
▶ 2:21:19Sen. Markey: Elon musk is in charge of all of the investigations into every single federal agency. That's scary. This is, at the same time, that he may be pushing for star link, his own company, to take over the contract, to upgrade the communications system. One month ago, the faa announced it was deploying multiple starling terminals across the country.
▶ 2:21:51Sen. Markey: Give these system critical importance is to our aviation system, these developments raise serious questions about aviation safety. I would like you to set the record straight on this issue of he said basically that we have single digit months until catastrophic failure. Putting air traffic safety at serious risk. Is that tweet accurate?
▶ 2:22:18Mr. Rocheleau: I would say the circumstances around our air traffic system are in great need of renewal.
▶ 2:22:26Sen. Duckworth: I didn't ask you. -- Sen. markey: I didn't ask you that. The public needs to hear this. Are we within single-digit months to catastrophic failure with a traffic safety?
▶ 2:22:38Mr. Rocheleau: I know we need new air traffic control facilities. I know we need that.
▶ 2:22:43Sen. Duckworth: You are saying we are at risk? Are you agreeing with him?
▶ 2:22:49Mr. Rocheleau: I'm saying that the air traffic system needs modernization as soon as possible.
▶ 2:22:54Sen. Duckworth: You understand we can't have people hand -- heading for the airports right now with elon musk saying we are within single-digit months of catastrophic failure. Can you are sure people it's not the case?
▶ 2:23:09Mr. Rocheleau: I can assure the flying public that to fly is safe. We have the safest most complex system in the world and it's safe to fly. I would also say that the air traffic system is in dire need of upgrade and it is something that the secretary and I have been working on intensely.
▶ 2:23:26Sen. Duckworth: You are saying that we are not within months of catastrophic failure? I don't think anyone wants to put a family member on a plane right now with this kind of assessment. Have youade the assessment that we are within single-digit months of catastrophic failure?
▶ 2:23:41Mr. Rocheleau: I have reviewed assessments in the last two months and understand that our equipment needs to be upgraded.
▶ 2:23:48Sen. Duckworth: I didn't ask you that. Is the existing equipment safe? Is the existing equipment putting traveler safety at serious risk? Yes or no.
▶ 2:23:59Sen. Duckworth: The existing
▶ 2:24:01Since -- Mr. Rocheleau: The existing system is safe.
▶ 2:24:04Sen. Duckworth: Ok. We need to know that. Are any spacex employees serving as special contractors that the faa right now?
▶ 2:24:13Mr. Rocheleau: We had three special employees from spacex. We are only in contact with one at this point. I would make it very clear, they did not do any air traffic, they didn't plug it into any of the equipment, they came in to observe and provide expertise along the lines of software and computer systems.
▶ 2:24:34Sen. Duckworth: Did any employee have any involvement in the decision of the faa to deploy starling terminals?
▶ 2:24:42Mr. Rocheleau: I'm sorry, could you repeat that?
▶ 2:24:46Sen. Duckworth: Did any of those doge employees have any involvement in the faa decision to deploy starling terminals in february?
▶ 2:24:55Mr. Rocheleau: There were no doge employees involved. It's been tested without being plugged into any systems.
▶ 2:25:04Sen. Duckworth: -- Sen. markey: are any of them involved in the deployment of additional terminals?
▶ 2:25:11Mr. Rocheleau: No, sir.
▶ 2:25:13Sen. Markey: I recognize that star link might be effective in communications, I'm sure that starling engineers think highly of that potential, but we need to be extremely careful that they are making these life-and-death decisions not based on any pre-existing professional biases or conflicts. You've got to make sure that this is the way that we operate. We will be having hearings on this. This year and next year. Thank you.
▶ 2:25:43Sen. Markey: Thank you, madam chair.
▶ 2:25:44Sen. Duckworth: Let's return to the general so that he can conclude his remarks.
▶ 2:25:49Gen. Braman: I want to clarify two quick points. On the numbers requested by both chairman, they can be made available, but that is a part of the investigation, the units memo that discusses how they utilize it, it's the policy letter in the purview of the investigation, that's why it's not currently releasable.
▶ 2:26:11Gen. Braman: Certainly when the other investigations have done their due diligence, we can look to make it available.
▶ 2:26:19Ms. Homendy: If the policy existed prior to the collision that can be provided, it can be provided.
▶ 2:26:26Sen. Duckworth: Thank you.
▶ 2:26:28Gen. Braman: Second question, talking about whether we are willing to change the army policy, the army is always willing to review policy. Am I prepared to make a decision on ads-b out right now? No, senator, but I want to do it informed by the facts of the investigation. That will drive policy changes. That's not army policy, that is dod policy. The army has a vested interest in getting it right.
▶ 2:26:58Gen. Braman: At the end of the day I most concerned about the rigid application of the policy being done correctly and not being abused. That's a part of the investigation as well.
▶ 2:27:08Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. Senator cantwell?
▶ 2:27:11Sen. Cantwell: Thank you. I wanted to just go back to this process and how it is set up and how we rectify these issues in the future. Ms. homendy, I think that you said in your earlier testimony that even if the black hawk helicopter had hugged the shoreline as originally described, that even that route that's outlined is insufficient?
▶ 2:27:44Sen. Cantwell: Your investigation showed that even that is insufficient? How do we get to a point when we have a route allowed in math military is flying that is interfacing with commercial aviation. As by the definition.
▶ 2:28:12Sen. Cantwell: That even if they flew the incorrect path, it's intolerable risk. That even if the difference in separation was too small, it was too small.
▶ 2:28:21Ms. Homendy: There is virtually no margin of error.
▶ 2:28:24Sen. Cantwell: How are you defining margin of error?
▶ 2:28:28Ms. Homendy: Just looking at this, I think you have to print out in front of you. I hope that they have what was provided. This isn't for the public, it's in the preliminary report behind me, the chart. When we look at the glide, when we mapped the glide slope and looked at the helicopter route, which has no lateral boundaries, it's 75 feet, max, if you are hugging the shoreline.
▶ 2:28:58Ms. Homendy: The collision actually occurred to the right and slightly above the dash line right here. Commercial pilots run -- on runway 33 don't have to be on this dash line, they could be above or below.
▶ 2:29:19Sen. Cantwell: You are saying --
▶ 2:29:21Ms. Homendy: They were not on this route, they were slightly over.
▶ 2:29:25Sen. Cantwell: You are saying that on this route they could have been above or below this line, but now you are saying that 75 feet is not enough separation?
▶ 2:29:33Ms. Homendy: 75 feet is the max. Because there is no lateral boundary on the route, it goes down as you come over. So, helicopters are not always on that eastern shoreline, which is where the 75 feet is marked. In this situation, they were actually to the right of this gray shaded area, which indicates the route that has no boundaries.
▶ 2:30:00Sen. Cantwell: In your analysis, even if they were on that route, it's still an intolerable risk?
▶ 2:30:06Ms. Homendy: Correct. It's very small.
▶ 2:30:09Sen. Cantwell: How did we get to this point, that's my question. How did we get to this point? It is a series of errors, here. A series of errors. Acting administrator, I'm trying to understand what office is responsible for this. What office is responsible for the exemption to the rule that made it worse?
▶ 2:30:29Sen. Cantwell: What office said that this is a safe pathway when the ntsb told us today that it never really was safe, it wasn't, it was intolerable risk.
▶ 2:30:40Mr. Rocheleau: I understand that today and even after the preliminary report, it was the assessment. And I can tell you that I'm sure that over time we will learn more about how the airspace was redesigned and that as a result of previous incidents that we discussed today, there were changes over time with respect to that airspace, but it is one of the reasons we immediately terminated those types of operations after the event.
▶ 2:31:09Mr. Rocheleau: Route four, route six, no mixed traffic into the airspace. Those are the things that we put in place immediately. I think that when you talk about how we got there, I think we are going to learn more of that through the investigation.
▶ 2:31:23Mr. Rocheleau: Again, I can confidently say, without knowing specifically what is in the investigation, that over time those routes, that airspace was designed, it's one of the reasons we went back to the hot spots around the nation, to understand the circumstances by which we move traffic safely and efficiently.
▶ 2:31:43Sen. Cantwell: What faa office has oversight over this issue as it relates to this area?
▶ 2:31:53Mr. Rocheleau: So, the air traffic aviation safety office reports directly to me and it oversees the air traffic organization.
▶ 2:32:03Sen. Cantwell: Did that office ever bring up any of this data, this information, or have input from anybody who said we don't like this scenario, there are too many close calls, too much interface, too complex, too hard to deal with?
▶ 2:32:20Mr. Rocheleau: On this specific route, I'm not aware of that. When presented with it, that's how airspace changes, when we are presented with those circumstances, we investigate them and we put mitigations in place.
▶ 2:32:36Sen. Cantwell: I'm questioning whether anyone was investigating. That's the issue. You had an alarm going off once a month. You had the data. You are saying that people weren't looking at it. While I get that ai is this new and interesting technology, it's no substitute for the faa having oversight over this level of traffic.
▶ 2:32:59Sen. Cantwell: As my colleague, the chair of this hearing, mentioned, now we want to know if we have other problems in other air spaces. We are very focused on dca, but now we want to know, we have big military complexes, 10 military installations in the state of washington. I'm sure chicago has a lot. Do we have to worry about this somewhere else because the faa doesn't have an organization overseeing this information?
▶ 2:33:28Mr. Rocheleau: I agree with you 100%, this is of utmost importance to me not just in the D.C. area, which we have again put measures in place to reduce the risk and to make the airspace less complex. This is one of the reasons we have a task force working on what we are calling hot spots to make sure that we are looking at airspace design wherever we have mixed traffic.
▶ 2:33:55Mr. Rocheleau: 10 locations, I believe it's a total of 20, 21 airports specifically to see where similar traffic like this needs mitigation.
▶ 2:34:04Sen. Cantwell: You say that this office reports directly to you. You say that they oversee these areas in the interface.
▶ 2:34:15Mr. Rocheleau: Let me be clear about that, the office that oversees air traffic reports directly to me. The task force, the group of people looking at these hot spots specifically are multiple parts of the agency. Air traffic, aviation safety, airports. A number of people are a part of that effort to make sure we are looking at the airspace design and if we find risk, we react.
▶ 2:34:39Sen. Cantwell: Well, there was risk for sure. There was risk being sounded in alarm and it wasn't addressed. Now we have to figure out why. There is a lot of information here that says a very high risk. Very high risk. So, why was it ignored? Was no one looking at it? We need an answer.
▶ 2:35:01Sen. Cantwell: This committee did very good work after the columbia accident, in my opinion, setting up more safety offices to make sure we never miss something like that again. I feel that that is the issue we are asking you about today. We need to understand what you think is in place and why, if it was in place, we missed it. Were little pieces of the responsibility delegated and no one had a holistic approach? Or lots of data is being ignored?
▶ 2:35:32Sen. Cantwell: This is a clear, clear, it's clear that this was an unacceptable design, just unacceptable and I don't know how we got there. I want to ask you, are we now supportive of ads-b out supportive of ads-b o in as a requirement? Making sure that carriers like this regional jet, again I mentioned earlier, $20,000 or so per plane, why can't we just say we are going to do this?
▶ 2:36:00Mr. Rocheleau: I understood from the chair earlier that it has been an ongoing recommendation. I have not personally looked into that in the last two months, as to what the expectations are. I know that equip age on aircraft throughout the system can be challenging, but I will certainly take it back to figure out what, specifically, ads-b o in, what would be required to mandate that.
▶ 2:36:30Mr. Rocheleau: Certainly, if congress passes a law --
▶ 2:36:32Sen. Cantwell: Already did, it was called the reauthorization bill. In my opening statement we basically authorized spending on that through the equip age program. You can discuss how this actually gets to floyd, but I'm pretty sure that the consumer ends up paying for it regardless in some way. The point is, ntsb has been recommending this. Is that right, chairwoman? You have recommended this since 2008?
▶ 2:37:02Ms. Homendy: Correct. I have to look at, but I think we have recommendations on ads-b in proceeding that. Those comments, if I may, may I add our 2008 comments to the hearing record?
▶ 2:37:17Sen. Cantwell: Thank you. Acting administrator, I think we need to hear from the department of transportation and the faa that they understand that these recommendations have been on the table and you need to respond to them.
▶ 2:37:34Sen. Cantwell: We don't want to keep doing this , having one organization who has to investigate all the accidents, deal with all the families, deal with the grief and the emotion, and then have the faa getting cozy with industry and gives exemptions. We don't want that. We want you to listen to the ntsb. I know that this is historic. I'm not blaming any administration. It's historic. It's historic.
▶ 2:38:02Sen. Cantwell: It's been there since the beginning of the big crashes we had way before the max, where the faa makes safety recommendations that are then ignored for, I don't know, sometimes a decade, and then people finally say -- ok. But we owe it to these families. We owe it to them now. It's not that hard to get this done. I hope you will take us back to the secretary and have an internal discussion and basically agree that it's time to get this done. Yes?
▶ 2:38:30Ms. Homendy: We are going to look at this as a part of our investigation, to see how it could have factored in, but the sea rj had ads-b out, it did not have ads-b in. We are going to look at what that information could have provided to that flight crew and how it could have made a difference. We have seen that and other investigations, that's why we have them.
▶ 2:39:00Sen. Duckworth: Thank you. I think that a nationwide book is important, why they are looking at the hotspots. Hospitals are all behind them as well. I think that beyond the local, hyper, local look, a national look is important. Thank you all for coming again. My condolences to the family members.
▶ 2:39:30Sen. Duckworth: I want to say thank you again to Ms. homendy, Mr. rocheleau, I know you have only been acting for a couple of months. We have been without an administrator for three years prior to your immediate present -- predecessor. General braman, thank you for being here. Senators will have until the close of business on april 3 to submit questions for the record. Witnesses have until the close of business thursday, april 17 to respond to the questions. This concludes today's hearing. The committee stands adjourned.