▶ 0:16:28>> I was waiting for the cameras to leave. The senate committee on health, education, labor and pensions will come to order. Secretary kennedy, thank you for coming before the committee. President trump has taken on the mission to reform the federal government, making health care more affordable and making america healthy again. It is clear the status quo does not work. Bureaucratic bloat, regulatory hurdles at the department of health and human services have made it harder to deliver critical services.
▶ 0:16:59Hhs needs to work better for the american people. It means finding ways to speed up approvals for life-saving drugs, improving delivery of health care services so americans who need the benefits can receive them, addressing the high levels of chronic disease, and holding backpackers accountable to lower health care costs for the american people. I am encouraged that a diet -- hhs is always -- already working to address these issues.
▶ 0:17:32I appreciate secretary kennedy for coming to answer our on the fiscal year 2026 budget. People fear change even when it is from worst to better. A clearly defined plan or objective, people assume the worse. Much of the conversation about the hhs agenda has been set by anonymous sources in the media and individuals with a bias against the president.
▶ 0:18:02Americans need direct assurance from the administration, and from you, Mr. secretary that the reforms will make their lives easier, not harder. That's why I invited you. Nobody can make the case better than you. These are questions about how hhs will be able to propose its primary functions and duties under the proposed budget. Many offices and programs potentially seeing changes are essential for implementing bipartisan laws including laws championed and signed into law by president trump.
▶ 0:18:31In 2018, congress worked with president trump to pass the support for patients and communities act, protecting communities, saving lives through increased access to naloxone and prevention and treatment for fentanyl addiction and to provide research into health disparities, addresses the needs of americans with traumatic brain injuries, alzheimer's, lyme disease, support family caregivers and help the moms and babies live healthier lives, programs
▶ 0:19:02Essential to achieving president trump's goal of making america healthy again. The proposed budget office is responsible for overseeing many of the initiatives initiated by president trump will be consolidated or repurposed. I agree with secretary kennedy that hhs needs reform. Over the past several years I have engaged stakeholders and worked with colleagues to identify opportunities to modernize a wide array of hhs agencies and programs.
▶ 0:19:31The department needs an effective plan to fulfill statutory duties in tandem with efforts to increase transparency , accountability, to streamline programs and root out wasteful spending. Congress and the administration should work to a desert to ensure reform strikes the right balance and delivers for all americans. Nobody can set the record straight better than you to explain how the department will maintain its critical duties and implement the changes important to americans health.
▶ 0:20:02By providing the clarity we had congress will be able to advocate for shared priorities in future legislation and you will gain the trust of the american people, putting their minds at ease. I appreciate you being here. I look forward to hearing how the proposed hhs budget will advance president trump's mission. And with that I recognize the senator sanders for his opening statement.
▶ 0:20:28Sen. Sanders: Mr. secretary, thank you for being with us. Let me begin by quoting a sentence that came from your prepared remarks. You state "the united states remains the sickest a developed nation. We spent $4.5 trillion annually on health care, two to three times more per capita than comparable nations.
▶ 0:20:53Sen. Sanders: Clearly, something is structurally wrong with our approach." you are right. At the current health care system is broken. It's widely expensed -- wildly expensive. It's dysfunctional. What do we do, Mr. secretary, to address this?
▶ 0:21:14Sen. Sanders: Maybe, for a start, we do what every other major country on earth does and recognize that health care is a human right, it guaranteed to every man, woman, and child. May be we understand that the function of a rational health care system is not to make hundreds of billions of dollars in profit for insurance companies and drug companies who often engage in stock buybacks
▶ 0:21:45Sen. Sanders: And pay their ceos outrageous compensation packages. There was a guy from one of the major drug companies sitting exactly where you are sitting, last year. The guy makes $50 million a year. Meanwhile, we don't have enough doctors. We don't have enough nurses. We don't have enough dentists. We don't have enough pharmacists. We don't have enough health care workers in general. You are right.
▶ 0:22:14Sen. Sanders: This system is structurally broken. We spent far more. We have a shorter life expectancy than other countries. This is an issue I want to address with you. How, in fact, do we guarantee health care to all people and to do it in an effective way. Let me say a word about prescription drugs.
▶ 0:22:39Sen. Sanders: You and president trump had a press conference earlier this week discussing an executive order that both of you claim would make sure the american people pay the lowest prices in the world for prescription drugs , not the highest. As you mentioned that your press conference,I think you are awar.
▶ 0:23:05Sen. Sanders: But, as president trump and you should know, this executive order, like trump's previous executive orders on the subject, will likely be thrown out by the courts and we will be back to exactly where we are today, paying by far the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. In my view, the way forward is through legislative action.
▶ 0:23:30Sen. Sanders: So, if you and president trump are serious about significantly lowering the outrageous price of prescription drugs in this country, as I hope your, -- you are, I would appreciate both of you working with me and other people on this committee and in the senate on legislation that I will soon be introducing that accomplishes exactly the same goal as you and the president talked about.
▶ 0:23:58Sen. Sanders: Making sure we pay no more for prescription drugs than people in other major countries. If we are serious about that, let's work together and make that happen. In fact, if republicans and democrats come together on this and we prioritize it, we can pass legislation in a couple weeks.
▶ 0:24:18Sen. Sanders: Thirdly, secretary kennedy, all of us want to make the government more efficient and cost-effective and few will deny there is too much bureaucracy. Let me also tell you what we want and what the american people want.
▶ 0:24:37Sen. Sanders: We want the federal government to play a major role in continuing its efforts to combat such terrible diseases as cancer, alzheimer's, diabetes, heart disease, and other terrible illnesses that claimed the lives of millions of americans. In that regard I must tell you I have heard from citizens, patients, and doctors in vermont and all over this country who are deeply concerned that on the leadership of you and Mr.
▶ 0:25:02Sen. Sanders: Musk, the trump administration has terminated at least $13.5 million in health care funding including more than 1600 grants to conduct bio research into cancer prevention, alzheimer's, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease, amid many other medical research investments. For the first three months of the year the national institute of health has been effectively cut by $2.7 billion, a 35% cut reversing over a decade of investment in medical research.
▶ 0:25:33Sen. Sanders: Under your leadership, cancer research has been slashed 31%. Further, under your leadership, you have undermined in the vital role vaccines play in preventing disease during the single largest measles outbreak in 25 euros, which has led to over 1000 cases of measles, over 125 hospitalizations, and three deaths. Let me say a word about usaid.
▶ 0:26:01Sen. Sanders: Elon musk, the richest man on earth, who has led the effort to cut health and nutrition programs for the poorest people on earth, has absurdly suggested that no one has died from the massive cuts to usaid. Mr. musk is 100% wrong.
▶ 0:26:27Sen. Sanders: According to independent researchers, nearly 200,000 people have already died throughout the world as a result of the massive cuts in funding to prevent malaria, tuberculosis, hiv, malnutrition, and other serious diseases. Further, as a result of the elimination of U.S. funding for a global vaccine program it has been estimated over a million children will die because of the cuts that will save taxpayers very little money. Let me conclude by saying this. Of the united states of america is at the wealthiest country on earth.
▶ 0:26:55Sen. Sanders: We should have the best health care system in the world. Not one of the worst. Given our purchasing power, we should be paying the lowest prices on earth for prescription drugs, not the highest. Instead of giving hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the richest people in this country, we should be proudly investing in coming up with cures for cancer, alzheimer's disease, diabetes, and other terrible illnesses. That's what we should be doing.
▶ 0:27:27Sen. Sanders: But I am afraid in too many ways we are doing exactly the opposite. Thank you, Mr..
▶ 0:27:35Sen. Cassidy: Thank you, senator sanders. Now I will introduce the witness. We are joined by the honorable robert f. Kennedy, jr., the 26th secretary of the united states department of health and human services, responsible for overseeing the nation's civilian federal health agencies which serve over 150 million americans. We look forward to hearing from you today, secretary kennedy. Thank you for joining us.
▶ 0:28:02Sec. Kennedy: Thank you, senator sanders. I want to begin by saying, I know how determined president is for us to have the lowest drug prices in the world. That is between europe and of the united states. I know he does not care how we get there. That is where he wants americans to be.
▶ 0:28:29Sec. Kennedy: Yeezy has -- he has said I don't know how many times since I have been involved with him, we should not be able to go to london and by glp for $88 and in this country it costs $1300. I look forward to working with you.
▶ 0:28:52Sen. Sanders: Thank you.
▶ 0:28:53Sec. Kennedy: Thank you, chairman cassidy and senator sanders. I am honored to be before you today to present the department of health and human services fiscal year 2026 budget, debilitating disease, contaminated food, toxic environments, addiction, and mental illness affect americans across every race, class, and political belief.
▶ 0:29:20Sec. Kennedy: When my team and I took the helm at hhs we set out with clear goals. First, to make america healthy again with a special focus on the chronic disease epidemic. Second, we committed to delivering more efficient, responsive, and effective service to over 100 million americans that rely on medicare, medicaid, and other programs. Third, we focused on achieving the goals by cutting costs for taxpayers.
▶ 0:29:50Sec. Kennedy: We had to do a lot more with less. The budget I am presenting today [shouting] >> the witness will suspend. The committee will come to order. Capitol police are asked to remove individuals from the room.
▶ 0:30:16Sec. Kennedy: Members of the audience, are reminded, disruptions will not be tolerated. Members of the audience are reminded, disruptions will not be permitted while the committee conducts its business. Capitol police are asked to remove the individuals from the hearing room.
▶ 0:30:51Sec. Kennedy: That was a made for c-span moment. The secretary will resume. Let's get the doors closed. We thank the capitol police for working with due diligence.
▶ 0:31:23Sec. Kennedy: Mr. secretary, please resume. Will you reset the clock? The clock has been running. Please.
▶ 0:31:38Sec. Kennedy: The budget I am presenting today supports those calls and reflects two enduring american values. Compassion and responsibility. I invite the committee to unite around of these ideals with me. The united states remains the sickest developed nation in the world and we spent $4.5 trillion annually on health care. Two to three times more per capita than comparable nations.
▶ 0:32:08Sec. Kennedy: Clearly, something is structurally and is systemically wrong with this system. Furthermore, health care costs are steadily increasing at a rate of 2% greater than the economy. If we do not stanch this unsustainable hemorrhage, we will ransom our children to bankruptcy, servitude, and disastrous health consequences. Yes, and exploding debt is a social determinants of health.
▶ 0:32:36Sec. Kennedy: We will not solve this problem by throwing more money at it. We must spend smarter. We will shift funding away from bureaucracy and towards direct impact. Some things at hhs will not change. We will preserve legacy programs like medicare, medicaid, and headstart as the foundation of the maha agenda. Vulnerable populations, seniors, and veterans deserve consistent access to care. I will ensure they receive it.
▶ 0:33:08Sec. Kennedy: Today, 83 million americans, urban and rural lack adequate access to primary care physicians. We will prioritize these families. Especially native american and alaskan communities. We will protect ihs funding, streamline its operations, and give the tribes more autonomy in managing their resources. Let me be clear we intended to make the trumpet hhs not addressed at the most effective, but the most compassionate in U.S. history.
▶ 0:33:38Sec. Kennedy: Our official budget statement outlines many prioritiess. I want to highlight a few. First, we will consolidate programs to better tackle mental health and addiction, issues that now rival chronic disease in their impact. Hhs will aggressively combat the opioid crisis, especially the spread of synthetic drugs like fentanyl. We will empower state, local, and tribal leaders to create effective solutions.
▶ 0:34:07Sec. Kennedy: Second, we will address nutrition, physical activity, and healthy lifestyles. The president's budget request $94 billion in discretionary funds to support these priorities including the administration for a healthy america. We will emphasize healthy eating in headstart and ensure the program continues to serve its 750,000 children and parents effectively.
▶ 0:34:34Sec. Kennedy: Third, we will equip the fda to expand its food safety efforts through research, regulation, inspection, to remove harmful chemicals from food and packaging and forth fund cutting edge research at nih while cutting risky or nonessential studies including ending gain of function experiments and research based upon a radical ideologies.
▶ 0:35:02Sec. Kennedy: At the cdc we will return to core missions tracking disease, investigating outbreaks, and sustaining public health infrastructure while cutting waste. Fifth, we will intimate d.e.I. Funding and redirect resources towards real poverty reduction. We will move beyond lip service to communities of color and to take meaningful action to meet their needs. Six, we will strengthen cybersecurity.
▶ 0:35:32Sec. Kennedy: The ai revolution has arrived. We are already using new technology to manage health data more efficiently and securely. Finally, we will rebuild public trust that has eroded through years of industry capture, corruption, waste, and misplaced priorities.
▶ 0:35:52Sec. Kennedy: We will launch a new era of transparency and public service, creating an honest, science driven hhs that answers to the president, congress, and the american people. I look forward to working with congress to pursue this mission together as a bipartisan cause. Let's work side-by-side to make america healthy again. Thank you.
▶ 0:36:13Chair Cassidy: Thank you, Mr. secretary. I will start with questions. Mr. secretary, I appreciate that nih wants to recalibrate its research portfolio to address conditions not previously attended to sufficiently, nutrition, conditions such as viral infections.
▶ 0:36:39Chair Cassidy: This is happening in tandem with reports that hhs is closing the office for a long covert and practice. I was to people for whom long covid is seriously impacting their life. To what extent will hhs continue to support research, data collection, and other programs focused on understanding the ongoing health impacts of long covid.
▶ 0:37:04Sec. Kennedy: I am 100% committed to finding treatments for long covid. I am deeply involved in that personally. I have a son that is dramatically affected by long covid. I have many friends affected by that and by lyme disease, incidentally. Which is also a priority. The covid office was cut by an executive order from the white house.
▶ 0:37:38Sec. Kennedy: But, everybody at nih and the cdc is committed to these kinds of studies. And I can tell you personally I will make sure they happen.
▶ 0:37:49Chair Cassidy: The nih is the largest public funder of biomedical research in the world, giving us an edge over countries like china with whom we are obviously a geopolitical rival. It takes a long time to develop this. Of the rising prevalence of neurodegenerative disease is one area in which we have impending crisis if we do not support the research and advanced cures.
▶ 0:38:13Chair Cassidy: My concern, as a guy from louisiana, if nih funding is substantially reduced, they have folks at my university's tulane and lsu that are doing work on these sorts of things. Knowing the nih budget is getting squeezed and the indirect cost, likewise, how will the nih successfully do more with less? How will we find scientists to compete with geopolitical rivals?
▶ 0:38:41Sec. Kennedy: For one thing, you are talking about neurodegenerative disease.
▶ 0:38:47Chair Cassidy: For example, als or alzheimer's.
▶ 0:38:50Sec. Kennedy: The chinese are not spending a lot of money on d.e.I.. And we are cutting those studies. We are cutting studies on a of function.
▶ 0:39:07Sec. Kennedy: We are cutting grants to foreign scientists from adversarial countries, in particular, the chinese which have the 1000 talents program that is openly trying to exploit U.S. research and take rip. We have -- our ip. We spend more than any country on biomedical research.
▶ 0:39:35Sec. Kennedy: Nih controls about 75% of the global funding on biomedical research. The cuts we have made today are cuts, administrative cuts. As far as we know, we have not fired any working scientist. The working scientists, the people actually doing science. There are some people that are scientists that were doing I.t. Or administration. But, in terms of who did lose their jobs.
▶ 0:40:02Sec. Kennedy: In terms of working scientists, our policy was to make sure none of them were lost and that research continues.
▶ 0:40:09Chair Cassidy: The budget proposes to eliminate several large block grants for hospital and health department emergency preparedness and other core public health capabilities, explaining states are better equipped to fund these activities. I agree frontline public health happens at the local level. But works well in louisiana may not work well in a state like new york.
▶ 0:40:37Chair Cassidy: But rural, under resourced state especially rely upon federal funding to support public health. How do you propose we balance competing interest, returning power to the states because there is a difference in how different states do it, but replace the funding necessary to combat these public health problems?
▶ 0:40:55Sec. Kennedy: I think it is a balance. Mr. chairman, we have a legal obligation. Cdc has a legal obligation to do national pandemic response. We will meet that obligation. We will improve it.
▶ 0:41:18Sec. Kennedy: Particularly if we can get support from this body to refund, re-appropriate the pop up critical for our pandemic response. There are some functions at our -- that our local in nature and in those cases we will support local infrastructure to respond. They know better than we know. We saw this during some hurricane response. The governor desantis response. It was really florida localized.
▶ 0:41:51Sec. Kennedy: There was no death and very little disruption from a hurricane that was as bad as the one that followed that relied on federal response and was really a catastrophe for the state. Experience shows, localities often do better with some functions. Particularly with hospitals and infrastructure. But we aren't relinquishing our responsibility at the cdc to manage national emergencies.
▶ 0:42:20Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Senator sanders.
▶ 0:42:26Sen. Sanders: Going back to prescription drugs. Mr. secretary, did I hear you correctly to state that your goal is to have americans pay the lowest prices in the world, or equivalent to what is paid in other major countries? That is my goal. You are prepared to work with us on legislation to achieve that goal?
▶ 0:42:46Sec. Kennedy: Absolutely.
▶ 0:42:49Sen. Sanders: I believe there is bipartisan support for it. I believe if the leadership here prioritizes that we can do it in a very short period of time and I look forward to that. Let me ask this. As secretary of hhs, we have, in america today, some 85 million americans that are uninsured or underinsured. We spend more per capita than any other country. His health care human right? -- is health care a human right?
▶ 0:43:22Sen. Sanders: Are we making america healthy when so many people can't afford to go to a doctor? Is health care a human right? Will you work with us to guarantee health care to every man, woman, and child in america.
▶ 0:43:35Sec. Kennedy: You are asking two different questions. You are asking a philosophical question about whether it is like a constitutional right. As an attorney, I would say that it's not a right of a kind that we otherwise enshrined in the constitution. Because health care costs your neighbor money. If I smoked cigarettes for 20 years, I make that choice.
▶ 0:44:02Sec. Kennedy: I don't have a lot of time.
▶ 0:44:07Sec. Kennedy: If you are asking me a philosophical question, I have to give you a thoughtful answer.
▶ 0:44:15Sen. Sanders: Within 30 seconds.
▶ 0:44:16Sec. Kennedy: It is unlike freedom of speech.
▶ 0:44:21Sen. Sanders: Every other country, Mr. secretary, every other country guarantees health care as a right. Should we? As americans?
▶ 0:44:28Sec. Kennedy: The objective is to get americans the level of health care they have had if they want the choice that americans want.
▶ 0:44:39Sen. Sanders: They don't want the choice to be uninsured. They don't want the choice to die because they don't get to a doctor.
▶ 0:44:45Sec. Kennedy: Americans prefer private insurance to other insurance sources.
▶ 0:44:53Sen. Sanders: Ok.
▶ 0:44:53Sec. Kennedy: I want to find a solution. I want every american to have insurance. President trump wants every american to have access to health care. The question is, how do we get there? Obama care is not working.
▶ 0:45:11Sen. Sanders: Ok. Sorry to interrupt. The reconciliation.
▶ 0:45:15Sec. Kennedy: My job is to make it work.
▶ 0:45:18Sen. Sanders: I have limited time. The reconciliation bill being worked on in the house will now come to the senate. As it stands now, it cuts to and the affordable care act by more than $715 billion, which the cbo estimated would limit health insurance for 13 point -- 13.7 million americans and raised copayments for millions of others.
▶ 0:45:46Sen. Sanders: It is throwing 13 million americans off of the health care they have, poor and working-class people, keeping america healthy?
▶ 0:45:53Sec. Kennedy: I have not seen that number. I have seen the number 8 million. The cuts are not true cuts. The cuts are eliminations of waste, abuse, and fraud. I can go through. I can go through. One million people.
▶ 0:46:16Sen. Sanders: I have a very limited amount of time.
▶ 0:46:18Sec. Kennedy: If you ask a question I will answer it.
▶ 0:46:23Sen. Sanders: I have a bunch of questions. We talk about austerity, doing more with less. In the same bill being worked on in the house now, there are $235 billion in tax breaks for the top .2%. Do you think that makes sense when the same bill would throw 13 million people off medicaid?
▶ 0:46:51Sen. Sanders: Should we give tax breaks to billionaires and throw kids and others off of medicaid?
▶ 0:46:54Sec. Kennedy: You are conflating the congressional bills with proposals from the president.
▶ 0:47:06Sen. Sanders: I'm talking about the bill. The reconciliation bill.
▶ 0:47:09Sec. Kennedy: The president isn't trying to do tax cuts for billionaires. He is trying to have no tax on tips.
▶ 0:47:16Sen. Sanders: $235 billion. Estate tax.
▶ 0:47:20Sec. Kennedy: How many billionaires you know that are making overtime or tips?
▶ 0:47:26Sen. Sanders: It's a big bill. There are a lot of provisions in it. You can't deny the top .02% will get $235 billion in tax breaks.
▶ 0:47:39Chair Cassidy: Senator paul.
▶ 0:47:43Sen. Paul: I want to commend secretary kennedy and the administration for putting forward less spending. One of the reasons I think we need to look at nih and other grantmaking organizations is if you keep giving them the same amount he will -- amounts you get the same frivolous grants. $660,000 to study the impact of micro aggressions on obesity related eating in latinx americans.
▶ 0:48:11Sen. Paul: Heart disease, diabetes, obesity. But, eating disorders in latinx americans. $49,000 to study if lonely rats seek cocaine more than happy rats. A 600,000 out of grant for lgbtq+ inclusive teen pregnancy prevention for transgender boys.
▶ 0:48:38Sen. Paul: They discovered girls who think they are boys are at least as likely to get pregnant as girlr who think they are girls. But we should agree that it's left-wing ideology, not science. We should study obesity, cancer, and diabetes. I commend you for shifting the balance. I have a specific quote -- specific question about closing down for dietrich recently.
▶ 0:49:04Sen. Paul: A contractor intentionally cut the hazmat suit or the biosafety suit of somebody handling ebola. You were immediately attacked in the press by saying it was antiscience, shutting down science. Was this a serious breach? Is it being investigated?
▶ 0:49:23Sec. Kennedy: We brought in the fbi to investigate it. As you say, it appears like a deliberate criminal act that is equivalent to attempted murder. The kind of microbe, the pathogens they were handling have a very high fatality rate.
▶ 0:49:48Sec. Kennedy: The disturbing thing about it is there are three leaks per week globally from these labs and any of those could be cataclysmic for humanity. As a result, we brought the fbi in to investigate backed and declared the end of gain of function studies again.
▶ 0:50:14Sen. Paul: I commend you for that. I think ultimately legislation will be needed because the next administration could reverse it. There are bipartisan controls for gain of function. As you shut down gain of function you have to decide what it is and look like it.
▶ 0:50:32Sen. Paul: I would suggest at fort dietrich and the lab nearby run by dhs we look at experiments involving ebola, avian flu, marburg virus to determine gain of function and whether the experiments are wise. I am told in public records they are doing experiments or have done experiments to aerosolized ebola at the dh lab nearby for dietrich.
▶ 0:51:01Sen. Paul: My hope is when you investigate whether to do gain of function or what is gain of function, what is being done, that you compile that and at least give us a report in congress. We will ask for it. So there can be public scrutiny of these things. The whole public needs to know how dangerous these things are and whether we should be doing them.
▶ 0:51:22Sen. Paul: The idea of aerosolized thing -- aerosolizing ebola is dangerous and probably goes against of biological weapons convention. I want to hear if you plan on bringing information back to congress or the public.
▶ 0:51:39Sec. Kennedy: We will be absolutely transparent. I have a trip planned it to fort dietrich with kristi noem, the director of dhs and with jay bought a char and other people in my agency who are experts on bio weapons or experts on a gain of function research and we will be absolutely transparent.
▶ 0:52:07Sec. Kennedy: We proposed a methodology for regulating and determining what is dangerous gain of function and what is legitimate. Scientific investigation. And how to bring the public into that debate. Which, as you point out, is absolutely critical. That is where we messed up last time.
▶ 0:52:30Sec. Kennedy: As you know, some of the democrats here are talking about the great science from nih, but we have a major intelligence agency, the fbi, the doe, the state department all agreed that nih research almost certainly lead to the pandemic. That is not the result we should be allowing or enabling. We will end that now.
▶ 0:52:58Sen. Paul: Is possible, the trip to fort dietrich, we would like to be included or invited if possible.
▶ 0:53:05Sec. Kennedy: Absolutely.
▶ 0:53:12Sen. Murphy: -- Sen. murray: one of my constituents, natalie phelps, is a mom of two from iowa state fighting aggressive colorectal cancer for nearly five years now. Her best hope is a clinical trial at the nih clinical center. She flew out to nih a few weeks ago for her first appointment. Her care team there wanted her to come back in four weeks to start treatment.
▶ 0:53:40Sen. Murphy: But, because of the thoughtless mass firing of thousands of critical employees across nih and hhs you carried out, natalie's doctors at that clinical center have told her they have no choice but to delay her treatment by an additional four weeks. An extra four weeks may not sound like a long time. But for stage four cancer patients like natalie, it could mean the difference between life and death.
▶ 0:54:10Sen. Murphy: Secretary kennedy, how many staff have been cut from the nih's clinical center? I want a specific number.
▶ 0:54:18Sec. Kennedy: I can't tell you that now. But I can tell you, if you contact my office tomorrow, I will look specifically into that. Senator murray. That's not excess -- Sen.
▶ 0:54:32Murray: That's not acceptable. She does not have much time and she deserves an answer back.
▶ 0:54:35Sec. Kennedy: Wouldn't you rather get her into the clinical trial as fast as you can? Contact my office tomorrow.
▶ 0:54:44Sen. Murray: You are here to defend your budget. I'm here to ask you questions about the impact of that.
▶ 0:54:50Sec. Kennedy: You asked me about a specific case that I want to help with. I do not think that should happen to anybody.
▶ 0:55:00Sen. Murray: What have you, and I mean you personally, done to assess how the staff cuts are impacting patient care? She's one of many. What have you done to assess that?
▶ 0:55:12Sec. Kennedy: I provided the guidelines that said no clinical trials should be affected by the cuts.
▶ 0:55:26Sen. Murray: They are impacting clinical trials.
▶ 0:55:27Sec. Kennedy: You asked me a question. Do you want me to answer?
▶ 0:55:32Sen. Murray: I want to tell you.
▶ 0:55:33Sec. Kennedy: Do you want me to answer your question?
▶ 0:55:38Sen. Murray: I will answer your question.
▶ 0:55:42Sen. Murray: Natalie is waiting for treatment.
▶ 0:55:43Sec. Kennedy: I'm offering to help her but you don't care about natalie. I offered to help natalie.
▶ 0:55:50Sen. Murray: I am asking you a question that is critical. You are here to defend cutting nih by half. Do you genuinely believe that won't result in more stories like natalie's?
▶ 0:56:01Sec. Kennedy: I think the cuts that are now proposed by the nih -- listen. There is no agency head in the government, like myself, that wants to see their budget cut.
▶ 0:56:22Sen. Murray: Have you personally assessed with this is doing to patients? I'm telling you one story of one person. It's a life or death situation.
▶ 0:56:31Sec. Kennedy: I'm going to answer your question.
▶ 0:56:34Sen. Murray: You did. I will say it's my job to be a voice for people like natalie. And countless other patients like her. You have to fix this. I want a personal update on natalie's case. You offer data. Please give it to me in the next 24 hours. I expect details and transparency about the state of nih clinical care.
▶ 0:56:58Sec. Kennedy: You contact my office, senator. I will do everything in my power to get natalie in.
▶ 0:57:10Sen. Murray: I want to ask you about these cuts. I'm alarmed by your decision to eliminate the national institute for occupational safety and. You have fired 90% of the staff including the staff in my state. At the spokane research lab. These are experts that do essential work to protect minors and firefighters and farmworkers. People that work in dangerous conditions. I am told after backlash you are reinstating some of those, mainly in the west virginia office.
▶ 0:57:41Sen. Murray: Nobody in the western united states. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to how you have made these decisions. How do you explain this to my constituents in spokane that are out of a job and the workers impacted by that?
▶ 0:57:53Sec. Kennedy: The work will not be interrupted. I have brought back 328 workers. Mainly in the cleveland office and the morgan's town office and for the world trade center site. The work will continue. The work on mine safety will continue. The epicenter of that work has been cleveland and morgantown. We understand if this is a critically important function. I did not want to see it end.
▶ 0:58:26Sen. Murray: You can't fire 90% of people and assume the work gets done.
▶ 0:58:28Chair Cassidy: Senator collins.
▶ 0:58:34Sen. Collins: Mr. secretary, nearly 7 million americans are living with alzheimer's disease. And it caring for people with this devastating, chronic disease costs us some $360 billion per year. I'm the author of a law that is now known as the bold act. It takes a public health approach to alzheimer's.
▶ 0:59:03Sen. Collins: It educates providers, promotes earlier diagnosis. It helps caregivers. It promotes lifestyle changes. I have worked hard to make sure hhs has the resources to carry out this law that was recently extended.
▶ 0:59:26Sen. Collins: I'm concerned that the redaction's of the force of approximately 10,000 staff across hhs will completely undermine this act. This act in many ways is consistent with your approach of looking at public health issues for chronic diseases. For example, the healthy aging ranch administers the bold act.
▶ 0:59:57Sen. Collins: It has lost all its staff. How can you ensure the cdc continues to implement the bold act and the alzheimer's programs under it when all the staff responsible for that administration have either been placed on administrative leave or let go?
▶ 1:00:21Sec. Kennedy: I don't know enough about that program. But I know under that division, it has been folded into the agency for healthy america. A lot of the reports and whole divisions have been liquidated. They are divisions that were being reassigned. I am under constraint.
▶ 1:00:54Sec. Kennedy: At 4:00 yesterday afternoon, we were told that a federal judge granted a tro on our case on the reorganization. My attorneys asked me not to talk about any details. On that budget line, I will work with you. I'm committed.
▶ 1:01:24Sec. Kennedy: Alzheimer's has run in my family. As you know, my cousin is deeply involved in it. The nih had a very checkered history studying alzheimer's because of the emma lloyd plaque scandal. Now we have an opportunity to do very good science and find a cure quickly and find out, equally importantly, why so many people are getting alzheimer's in this generation. I want to make that happen.
▶ 1:01:54Sec. Kennedy: I want to work with you, senator, to make sure that happens and that these programs continue.
▶ 1:02:04Sen. Collins: Recently I chaired the first appropriations committee hearing of the year and we focused on biomedical research and how important it is that america not lose its global edge in innovation producing life-saving, life enhancing discoveries.
▶ 1:02:24Sen. Collins: Among the many issues we covered, as you might expect, the hearing explored the 15% arbitrary one-size-fits-all percent cap that nih has imposed on indirect, but still, research related costs for its grams.
▶ 1:02:45Sen. Collins: What we heard is this cap will mean less basic research, fewer clinical trials, and that it will also cause our scientists and researchers to believe the united states and go to other countries. I believe strongly this proposed cap is poorly thought-out out and harmful.
▶ 1:03:09Sen. Collins: I know it violates current law because since 2018, we have included in the appropriations bill specific language that prohibits nih from imposing such a cap. I know that this system needs to be looked at.
▶ 1:03:33Sen. Collins: But are you reviewing how nih is approaching this one-size-fits-all 15% cap on indirect costs and how that would affect laboratories, whether they are private, nonprofit labs, or whether they are in universities, as far as doing a biomedical research.
▶ 1:03:55Sec. Kennedy: Senator, we are and you and I have talked about this issue. I think the impetus for the cap was, there were a lot of private efforts with giant endowments like stanford and harvard that were getting indirect payments of 78%.
▶ 1:04:16Sec. Kennedy: That means if you have a million-dollar grant, nih then has to pay you an extra $780,000 for administrative costs and a lot of the costs weren't even going to anything to do with science. They were going to university budgets. In order to curb that abuse we opted with a 15% industry-standard with the gates foundation or what any other foundation would pay.
▶ 1:04:47Sec. Kennedy: But I understand the university of maine, university of alabama, many other universities, state universities were not abusing it. We lost about $9 billion per year in those kinds of costs. We have a plan for how to address issues like what is happening at the university. Now I am being gaveled out so I will talk to you privately about that.
▶ 1:05:21Sen. Baldwin: You ride a department that touches the lives of almost every american, yet, for this budget hearing, these are the six pages we have gotten in terms of your budget request. We are also seven and a half months into this fiscal year. Yet, you are telling the american public anything about how you are spending the billions in taxpayer dollars right now.
▶ 1:05:52Sen. Baldwin: You had to submit an operating plan to congress. This is just a sample page. 500 30 programs simply have asterisks. Secretary kennedy, this is not about your hiding information from me. This is about your hiding information from the american public.
▶ 1:06:14Sen. Baldwin: If you are going to cut cancer research or get mental health support, at least stand by your work and explain it to the american people. Secretary kennedy, I want to start with what I hope is an easy question for you. Do you think lead poisoning in children is a significant concern?
▶ 1:06:38Sec. Kennedy: It is an extremely significant concern.
▶ 1:06:46Sen. Baldwin: Then, I want to know why your department has effectively shut down the very program to address lead poisoning in children. The city of milwaukee requested assistance from the cdc to help the city respond to lead poisoning cases tied to public schools. Six schools have been closed, displacing more than 1800 school children.
▶ 1:07:14Sen. Baldwin: The request for federal assistance was denied because of lack of staff. The entire childhood lead poisoning branch has been fired. In the words of a milwaukee mom, it really sends the message that you don't matter. I do not know what you would say to parents that must now test their children for lead and to deal with school closures. Do you intended to eliminate this branch at cdc, yes or no?
▶ 1:07:41Sec. Kennedy: No, we do not.
▶ 1:07:46Sabo -- Sen. Baldwin: You can't tell us you want to make america healthy again when you are willfully destroying programs which keep children safe and healthy from lead poisoning. Congress dedicated $51 million in funding for this particular program.
▶ 1:08:04Sabo -- Sen. Baldwin: When a community asks for help to prevent lifelong complications for children, and there is no one there to pick up the phone, and it is not because the program is ineffective, it's because you fired the entire team whose job it is to support communities like milwaukee.
▶ 1:08:23Sec. Kennedy: If that money has been appropriated, we will spend that money if it has been appropriated to milwaukee. I have spent a lot of time in milwaukee.
▶ 1:08:35Sen. Baldwin: The entire staff has been fired. Secretary kennedy, I noted in her opening testimony, though we would not know it from the skinny budget we have, that you plan on funding the head start program. I want to tell you about the ramifications of what has happened to date with regard to headstart.
▶ 1:09:03Sen. Baldwin: I have heard from families across the state, people terrified about the uncertainty and it will her start. Just one week into president trump 's administration headstart programs in wisconsin suddenly could not access grant funding forcing one headstart in waukesha, wisconsin to temporarily close, leaving 250 families without care.
▶ 1:09:32Sen. Baldwin: Over the last four months, hhs provided roughly $1 billion less to headstart programs across the country then during the same period last year. These delays in funding exacerbated uncertainty for programs needing to make payroll. In some instances, like the ones I cited in waukesha, programs have had to shut their doors until the payments came through.
▶ 1:09:58Sen. Baldwin: I do not know what you would say to a patient unable that a parent unable to drop their child off at preschool because you failed to get already appropriated money out the door or maybe I should ask, what would you say to a parent that shows up for child care or headstart and the doors are closed?
▶ 1:10:14Sec. Kennedy: I would be very sad. I have fought very hard to make sure.
▶ 1:10:24Sen. Baldwin: What is causing the delays in headstart funding?
▶ 1:10:26Sec. Kennedy: I fought very hard to make sure headstart gets all of its funding. Next year.
▶ 1:10:34Sen. Baldwin: We need it this year. Why are there delays now?
▶ 1:10:38Sec. Kennedy: I don't know that there are, senator. I should look into it. There should not be any delays. The funding is there. We are spending it. I do not know why there would be those kinds of problems. Within the agency, there were people that wanted to make the trump administration look bad. There were checks held up that should not have been. I will look into that, senator.
▶ 1:11:08Chair Cassidy: Senator murkowski.
▶ 1:11:14Sen. Murkowski: Thank you, chairman. Secretary, good to see you. I want to talk about the hhs reorganization on some of the programs that impact alaska's most vulnerable populations. I sent you a note letting you know just after this hearing I will be chairing a senate community -- committee on indian affairs specifically examining hhs tribal programs outside of ihs.
▶ 1:11:41Sen. Murkowski: I thank you for your early efforts to exempt ihs health care providers from the risk. That was a very important. I have also heard concerns from tribal leaders on the risk to key hhs programs serving their communities. Some other reductions that we are looking at. Within your budget do have significant consequences to a state like mine.
▶ 1:12:11Sen. Murkowski: One is the low income energy assistance. For us it is not a budget line item. In alaska the temperatures can get really tough. This keeps people from freezing to death in their homes. Another program, I know hhs rescinded a number of those employees, great news.
▶ 1:12:32Sen. Murkowski: Employees that received notices for the program were not rescinded in denial -- center for marine health studies a big deal for commercial fishing. It could effectively leave our fishing fleet out of compliance with coast guard safety. We are watching back very carefully. Then, shared focus on making sure our children are as healthy as they possibly can be.
▶ 1:12:59Sen. Murkowski: I want to look for ways we can strengthen, not eliminate, the headstart program.
▶ 1:13:06Sec. Kennedy: You should talk to me about that. As you know, that is something I am deeply concerned with. The commercial fisheries. We should talk about that. Let's work for a solution.
▶ 1:13:39Sen. Murkowski: Domestic violence and sexual assault funding. I am hearing a lot from our domestic violence program operators concerned about the delayed release of fy 25 funding , the absences of notice of funding opportunities as well as proposed cuts or consolidations that might threaten the office of family violence prevention and cdc's division of violence prevention. You are programs there that are very foundational to domestic and sexual violence.
▶ 1:14:10Sen. Murkowski: They have been reauthorized with bipartisan support. I will enter into the record a letter from the national task force. It was sent to you I guess yesterday urging the community -- communication of concrete plans for releasing some of these funds. I will raise the to your level.
▶ 1:14:35Sen. Murkowski: I want to make sure we are sending the right signal to so many on the edge with these community-based services that are helping the most vulnerable of the most vulnerable. -- helping the most vulnerable. Funding is delayed. We need help releasing that.
▶ 1:14:54Sec. Kennedy: Funding for domestic violence was not cut. I specifically asked about that program and was told there was no cuts. I looked into it. So I don't know why people would be experiencing even delays.
▶ 1:15:15Sen. Murkowski: It may be that the risk is with people who are processing these things. Last question for you. The budget proposes, the skinny budget, proposes to eliminate this and says it is unnecessary because states have policies preventing utility disconnection for low income households.
▶ 1:15:44Sen. Murkowski: This benefits states like new york and california, and it is implemented -- I'm telling you we are not in the northeast. We are not in that bucket. We are called. Other places are hot. This is a lifesaver. I did see your statement from yesterday saying that omb was thinking that president trump's energy policy is going to reduce costs dramatically. It may.
▶ 1:16:16Sen. Murkowski: It may be a while. Right now, folks in alaska still need those to keep warm.
▶ 1:16:22Sec. Kennedy: I was on the -- first of all, my family was involved in providing low-cost energy to the poor in new england. There were people in new england who would suffer if energy prices rise.
▶ 1:16:45Sec. Kennedy: I was on the navajo reservation a couple of weeks ago, and the know how president said to me, if we cut the heat, people will die on this reservation. I know the same is true in alaska. The perception behind the budget cuts was not that energy prices would drop dramatically, in which case this would become a subsidy for the oil industry.
▶ 1:17:13Sec. Kennedy: If that does not happen, I would expect congress will spend the appropriate money. I will spend 4 million -- 400 million dollars between january and now to make sure we get this program out to all of the families.
▶ 1:17:34Sen. Murkowski: I think you will find a lot of support in this committee for that.
▶ 1:17:39Sen. Murphy: Want to talk to you about your relationship with this committee and this congress. I want to talk to you about statements he made to the chairman of this committee and members of this committee during your confirmation hearing, about vaccines. You did not tell the truth. I find that to be really dangerous for our relationship.
▶ 1:17:57Sen. Murphy: The chairman, who believes in vaccines and voted for you because he believed what you said about supporting vaccines -- in the hearing, you told us I will not work to impound divert, or otherwise reduce any funding appropriate by congress for the purpose of vaccination programs. That is not the truth. Let me finish my question.
▶ 1:18:18Sec. Kennedy: I'm just asking you to repeat it.
▶ 1:18:27Sen. Murphy: You said to this committee and the finance committee I will not work to reduce funding appropriated by congress for the purpose of vaccination programs. That is not what happened. You have done the opposite. You have withheld $12 billion in grants for the states, including my state, that are used to administer and track vaccines. You promised chairman cassidy. Madame chair, will you let me finish my question? Let me finish my question.
▶ 1:18:55Sec. Kennedy: Just tell me what I did so I can understand the question.
▶ 1:19:02Sen. Murphy: You have canceled $12 billion in public health grants to states, whether you know this or not. That funding was used by the states in part to be able to administer and dispense information about vaccines. Which we -- Mr. secretary, let me give you the full panoply of --
▶ 1:19:22Sec. Kennedy: Of accusations?
▶ 1:19:26Sen. Murphy: Of things you said before this committee that did not turn out to be true. You also promised chairman cassidy that the fda would not change vaccine standards from historical levels. What happened as soon as you were sworn in? You announced new standards for vaccine approvals that you proudly referred to in your own press release as a radical departure from current practice. Experts say that departure will delay approvals.
▶ 1:19:52Sen. Murphy: You also said, specific to the measles vaccine that you support the measles vaccine, but you have consistently been undermining the measles vaccine. You told the public that the vaccine wanes quickly. You went on the Dr. phil show and said the measles vaccine was never fully tested for safety. You said there was fetal debris in the measles vaccine.
▶ 1:20:12Sec. Kennedy: All true. Do you want me to lie to the public?
▶ 1:20:17Sen. Murphy: None of it is true.
▶ 1:20:18Sec. Kennedy: Of course it's true, senator. Senator -- you do not know what you are talking about. [gavel]
▶ 1:20:28Sen. Murkowski: Let's have a little bit of order.
▶ 1:20:31Sen. Murphy: I did not ask for a response. I would like to complete my question before I am interrupted by the witness.
▶ 1:20:38Sen. Murkowski: Go ahead.
▶ 1:20:44Sen. Murphy: You also said you would not recommend your kids get vaccinated for measles. You said you would just lay out the pros and cons. This is the summation of everything that you have said to compromise people's faith in the measles vaccine in particular. It is contrary to what you said before this committee. You said you support the measles vaccine, you have laid out a set of facts that are contested, and I will submit information for the record to contest what you have said about the vaccine.
▶ 1:21:15Sen. Murphy: The result is to undermine faith in the vaccines. Kind of like saying I think you should swim in that lake, but you know the lake is probably toxic and there are a ton of snakes and alligators, what I think you should swim in it. Nobody is going to swim in that. I want to acknowledge that when you say you support the measles vaccine and then go out and repeatedly undermine the vaccine with information that is contested by public health experts, that is not supporting the vaccine.
▶ 1:21:42Sen. Murphy: I guess I have two simple questions. One is, can you clarify what you said? Are you or are you not recommending that families get their children vaccinated? Or are you just giving people the pros and cons? And do you understand that when you say these things about the measles vaccine, what ends up happening is less people get vaccinated.
▶ 1:22:07Sen. Murphy: That may be what you want, but do you understand that the result of const justly questioning the efficacy and safety of the vaccine results in less people getting the vaccine? I don't necessarily want to spend the remaining 20 seconds in an argument over the sence. But do you at least understand that is the consequence of what you are saying? Are you actually still recommending people get the vaccine or are you not?
▶ 1:22:30Sec. Kennedy: If I was in a lake and I knew there were to be alligators, wouldn't you want me to tell you there are alligators?
▶ 1:22:41Sen. Murphy: Are you recommending the measles vaccine or not? It does not sound like you are.
▶ 1:22:45Sec. Kennedy: Are you going to let me answer or are you going to interrupt? I said that I would tell the truth during my confirmation. I have told the truth about everything we know and don't know about vaccines. I'm not going to just tell people everything is safe and effective if I know there is issues. I need to respect people's intelligence.
▶ 1:23:11Sen. Murphy: I think you are answering the question. That is really dangerous for the american public.
▶ 1:23:15Sec. Kennedy: The public faith in this program -- they have been lied to by public officials.
▶ 1:23:24Sen. Murkowski: Senator marshall?
▶ 1:23:26Sec. Kennedy: By the way, I said at the hearing this morning I recommended the measles vaccine. You can go look at the transcript.
▶ 1:23:36Sen. Murkowski: Senator marshall.
▶ 1:23:37Sen. Marshall: Thank you for being here, Mr. secretary. I'm glad you are here. Let's stay on the measles vaccine just for a second. Let me catch my breath after all that. I am an obstetrician. If it 25-year-old pregnant woman asked me if she should take the measles vaccine, I would give the answer no, you shouldn't. What if she was 25 and trying to get pregnant, I would give her different advice.
▶ 1:24:07Sen. Marshall: I have always valued the sanctity of the physician-patient relationship. I went to medical school for 40 years. I delivered thousands of babies. It is my job to give that recommendation. What is the role of the secretary of hhs as far as recommendations of a vaccine?
▶ 1:24:28Sec. Kennedy: Vaccine recommendations, senator, are normally made through an advisory committee. It is an outside consulting committee at cdc. There is another committee which is within fda that actually recommends whether vaccines are licensed or not. That is where recommendations come from. Traditionally, they have not done evidence-based medicine.
▶ 1:25:00Sec. Kennedy: They only adopted evidence-based medicine 12 years ago. What we have said in our administration is we want to have safety studies prior to the licensure and recommendation of vaccines. Vaccines are the only medical product that is exempt from prelicensing safety tests. The only vaccine that has been tested in a full-blown placebo trial was the covid vaccine.
▶ 1:25:28Sec. Kennedy: The other 76 shots that children in this country receive between birth and 18 years old -- none of them have been tested against a placebo, which means we do not understand the risk profile for those products. And that is something that I intend to remedy.
▶ 1:25:54Sen. Marshall: You said earlier you could not talk about the reorganization. Maybe you can at least confirm these facts for me or not. Isn't it true that under joe biden's white house, they added 20,000 employees to hhs? When you were nominated, there was 28 divisions in hhs. 100 communication offices. 40 I.t. Departments.
▶ 1:26:22Sen. Marshall: Is that -- can you answer that question?
▶ 1:26:25Sec. Kennedy: That is correct. There are dozens of I.t. Departments. There are eight senior finance officials. Nine separate offices on women's health. 27 separate offices for hiv. 59 behavioral health programs.
▶ 1:26:47Sec. Kennedy: What we are trying to do is consolidate, streamline, eliminate the redundancies -- the administered of cost for each of those departments. Consolidate them. Make them make sense and make them accountable to the american people.
▶ 1:27:05Sen. Marshall: I suppose all those I.t. Systems communicate with each other.
▶ 1:27:11Sec. Kennedy: There are 40 per chairman to prince with separate computer systems that don't talk to each other -- there are 40 procurement departments with separate computer systems that don't talk to each other. I would say that was great if americans got healthier, but they did not. They got worse.
▶ 1:27:31Sec. Kennedy: What we are trying to do is go back to the pre-covid levels and start making the department function as it would if -- in an actual universe. Use modern ai and telemedicine and all the opportunities we have now.
▶ 1:27:52Sec. Kennedy: These inefficiencies for medical delivery and patient care -- we are not able to take advantage because there is so much chaos and disorganization in this department. Everybody that has gone up against it in the past has thrown their hands up and given up. We are saying let's organize in a way that we can quickly deploy all these opportunities we have to really deliver high-quality health care here.
▶ 1:28:20Sen. Marshall: This was going to be a question. I'm going to make a statement. All the research we do on soil health and nutrition -- that is research on cancer, research on alzheimer's. And we should be spending as much money at the front side of this as we are trying to cure the end of it. We are seeing epidemics of khalil rectal cancer.
▶ 1:28:47Sen. Marshall: I think the research at the front end is going to be as important.
▶ 1:28:52Sec. Kennedy: Senator murphy made a point. The nih had all these extraordinary breakthroughs, particularly with cancer, reducing the mortality for colorectal cancer. My question is, isn't it as important to find out why kids are getting khalil rectal cancer? When you and I were kids, there were zero kids with khalil rectal cancer. It is epidemic now.
▶ 1:29:23Sec. Kennedy: Why don't we figure out what is causing it, and the exposure with all of these? Heart disease. Something is making americans very, very sick. Our response should not just be we will come up with a pharmaceutical fix for it. Let's figure out what it is and get rid of it so we can have healthy kids again.
▶ 1:29:47Sen. Kaine: I want to ask you some questions about staff reduction and the timing of it. You were confirmed by the senate on february 13, so I am assuming things happen before you were confirmed. On january 28, the fork in the road letter came out to people across the federal employment space, widely treated to opm, elon musk, and does.
▶ 1:30:16Sen. Kaine: That was before you were confirmed, so you had nothing to do with it.
▶ 1:30:20Sec. Kennedy: Correct.
▶ 1:30:22Sen. Kaine: On february 14, a day after confirmation, hhs announced 3500 probationary employees were going to be laid off. I know you are a hard worker, but my right to assume that in the one day between your confirmation and the next day, you were not the primary decision-maker about laying off probationary employees?
▶ 1:30:44Sec. Kennedy: I was aware of it.
▶ 1:30:48Sen. Kaine: What you are not the primary decision-maker. Was that a decision that was made by opm or does? It was not just hhs. It was all federal agencies.
▶ 1:30:58Sec. Kennedy: I had a full staff in place before I got there.
▶ 1:31:05Sen. Kaine: But did they make the decision, or was it the white house and does, to lay off probationary employees?
▶ 1:31:12Sec. Kennedy: Doge came in and gave us information we would not otherwise have accessed.
▶ 1:31:19Sen. Kaine: All I ask was -- you answer the question. April 1, hhs, 2000 employees. You have been secretary for about six weeks. A few days after that announcement, hhs staff briefed the senate staff, and basically, here are some highlights. 10,467 staff at the department of children and families.
▶ 1:31:50Sen. Kaine: 273 at the center for disease control. 1000 312 at the national institutes of health. 2519 at the food and drug administration. By now, you have been sec. For six weeks. You were involved in the decision about these 10,000, correct? In tandem with your leadership team?
▶ 1:32:16Sec. Kennedy: I pushed back and canceled some.
▶ 1:32:22Sen. Kaine: Yesterday, it might've been earlier today, you confirmed that 20,000 employees had been let go at hhs. 10,000 were riffed and 10,000 fork. Do you know how many of the 20,000 were veterans? That is a fact that is very easy to determine from some of those personnel files, so I am going to ask that question for the record.
▶ 1:32:52Sen. Kaine: We are finding across the government that veterans are disproportionately being let go. They are a high percentage of the federal workforce and a dramatically higher percentage of probationary employees. They leave military service after 10 or 25 years, and they probationary new employees when they enter the civil service. So I want to find an answer to that question. Where does the rubber meets the road on those 20,000?
▶ 1:33:21Sen. Kaine: And people not getting cancer trials. And state grants being canceled? And virginia losing $425 million in funding for the virginia department of health. There is a small example. All of our offices and casework -- all of them do casework. And we get requests from constituents all the time. Cms is the largest agency in the federal government.
▶ 1:33:52Sen. Kaine: And people who depend on medicaid, medicare -- they really depend on it. And it is most consistent in the top three or four in terms of constituent requests my office. In every administration -- trump one, biden -- I get answers to questions on behalf of constituents. I may not get it as fast as I like. Sometimes I like the answer, and sometimes I don't.
▶ 1:34:25Sen. Kaine: I have omitted the name of the constituent and I have omitted the name of the staffer. This is very recent. A hard-working retiree, a patriotic, taxpaying retiree on medicare, wrote to ask a very simple question. Asked us to reach out. We reached out to the medicare part c congressional office. Here was the answer.
▶ 1:34:55Sen. Kaine: Unfortunately, there is not enough to provide with the recent change in the administration. We are unable to provide any information on matters related to this request. I mean, if you are just an everyday, hard-working american retiree on medicare, and you have a basic question about it, you ought to be able to get an answer.
▶ 1:35:22Sen. Kaine: I'm just going to say I shared this with my colleagues, and many of us are having the same experience, where are constituents cannot get a basic question answered. I yelled back, Mr. chair.
▶ 1:35:37Sen. Husted: Thank you for being with us today. I appreciate the work that you have done on trying to raise awareness about making america healthy again. It relates to our dietary consumption, how food can be medicine or can make us sick. He raised a great deal of awareness.
▶ 1:36:02Sen. Husted: When we talk about public education campaigns, you have done more to shine the light on things than average americans can do to make themselves healthier than almost any secretary I can recall. Thank you for that service. I also have listened to a lot of the conversations today where somehow, we think that spending more is somehow compassionate.
▶ 1:36:33Sen. Husted: Every single program, you have to spend more to do it. Every single person in this congress knows that they are spending borrowed money that our children will have to repay. $106,000 -- their share of the national debt, a child born into this nation right now. Everything you can do to create savings and improve the quality of services that american taxpayers get from your agency, I commend you on it. I encourage you to do so.
▶ 1:37:03Sen. Husted: I want to give you the opportunity to share points you might want to share about how some of the work you are doing in this budget is going to help people become healthier, generate better outcomes for them, and savings that you think can be created that will not harm somebody's health, but actually preserve the fiscal future of this nation, so the children can grow up and have access to the american dream that we all had access to.
▶ 1:37:34Sen. Husted: Just share your thoughts.
▶ 1:37:34Sec. Kennedy: I appreciate you raising that about the debt issue. What I was thinking earlier was that there is no agency head that -- I want as much money and power as I can possibly have. I recognize that president trump in the omb director have a larger duty and a larger vision. We are spending $2 trillion a year, and we are building our children.
▶ 1:38:06Sec. Kennedy: That is a moral deficiency. The morality of universal health care -- there is a good moral argument for that. But there is also a moral argument -- we are spending a trillion dollars a year. Within five years, half of every dollar collected in texas coast to servicing the debt.
▶ 1:38:33Sec. Kennedy: And that is -- that is a social determinant of health. We are trying to reverse that. We're doing it in a way that is not just throwing more money. For 20 years, the democrats have said we need to revise this. We have nine synthetic petroleum-based synthetic dyes in our food.
▶ 1:39:03Sec. Kennedy: For 20 years, the democrats have been saying we should do this. I have done it in 100 days. I am rewriting the dietary guidelines. President biden gave us 453 pages, and it is an industry generated document. The same industry that would have you put froot loops at the top of the food pyramid. We want these things to be locally sourced.
▶ 1:39:32Sec. Kennedy: That will drive the school lunch program. We have called on and inspired governors and legislatures across the country. Soda and candy for snap -- am I getting into your time?
▶ 1:39:56Sen. Husted: Thank you for your work on snap. If you are in the bottom quartile, of income, you are about twice as likely to be obese as if you are in the top quartile, and it is costing people their productivity, their quality of life. It is costing the american taxpayer more money for medicare and medicaid and other health services. I just would say we talked about kids. I want to give you a moment to share a thought.
▶ 1:40:27Sen. Husted: In 2022, we had a shortage of infant formula. When you look at the children now come up with what they should have an infan formula -- you are doing that. Tell us a little bit about that. I will just say, Mr. chairman, thank you for doing that. How about that?
▶ 1:40:57Sen. Husted: >> the secretary made the statement that no vaccines except covid have been evaluated against placebo. That is not true. Some vaccines estimated against -- were tested against previous versions, and norovirus has been tested. For the record.
▶ 1:41:13Sen. Hassan: I would like to start by talking about the current measles outbreak, which I know is a concern for all of us here today. Two children in texas have tragically died from measles this year, first children to die from measles in our country in more than 20 years. Measles is almost completely preventable with the measles vaccine. As you know, it is critical that families here directly and clearly from health care leaders about how they can best protect their children.
▶ 1:41:44Sen. Hassan: Mr. secretary, I would like to give you an opportunity to say clearly here today, to any parents who are watching, that the best way to protect their children from measles is to vaccinate them.
▶ 1:41:53Sen. Kennedy: I have said that. I would say this. We get a measles outbreak every year. We kindled this measles outbreak better than any other nation.
▶ 1:42:10Sen. Hassan: What I am interested in -- what I asked you to do is to say straight to the camera that it is your position that the best way for parents to prevent their kids from getting measles is to vaccinate them. Is that your statement today? That is great. Thank you. Now, you lead the nation's health department, so let me ask you a couple questions. You think hhs should employ anyone who is a danger to healthy children?
▶ 1:42:38Sec. Kennedy: No.
▶ 1:42:40Sen. Hassan: You hired david gile to lead autism research, an individual who fraudulently posed as a doctor and gave dangerous medications and medical tests to children with autism.
▶ 1:42:55Sen. Hassan: According to the state of maryland's investigation, david, who has no medical license or training, gave hormone blocking injections to children with autism who were as young as eight years old, which the maryland board of medicine said poses a substantial risk of harm. Will you fire him?
▶ 1:43:15Sec. Kennedy: First of all, what you are saying is not true. We did not hire david geyer at hhs. You have said some early defamatory things about a person who --
▶ 1:43:32Sen. Hassan: Let me be clear for the record.
▶ 1:43:34Sec. Kennedy: Those charges, I'm going to correct the record on this.
▶ 1:43:38Sen. Hassan: Let me tell you what the record says, and then I will hear from you. Last week when Mr. o'neill was here, in his confirmation hearing, I said minute for the record the charge that the state of maryland laid out. If you would like also for me to submit to the record with unanimous consent today the findings of the state of maryland, which fined him 10,000 dollars for practicing medicine without a license -- he does not have a medical license -- and for providing and giving children hormone blockers.
▶ 1:44:11Sen. Hassan: That is the finding of the state of maryland, its medical licensing board. I will submit that for the record. Unanimous consent.
▶ 1:44:19Sec. Kennedy: I'm assuming you don't know what I'm about to tell you, or you wouldn't say something. You may or may not know that david guyer sued marilyn.
▶ 1:44:35Sen. Hassan: I do know that. That does not change the findings, nor does it change the experience of the parents.
▶ 1:44:40Sec. Kennedy: That finding was reversed by a court and he was awarded $5 million.
▶ 1:44:48Sen. Hassan: That is not true. I want confirmation. David geyer is still at hhs. I wrote you a letter and you have not responded.
▶ 1:44:58Sec. Kennedy: That is our bad. I will respond. But david geyer is not managing autism research.
▶ 1:45:08Sen. Hassan: What is his job at hhs? This is somebody who give parents the impression that he was a doctor, and gave hormone blockers to children as young as eight, telling them that hormone blockers would somehow magically help their kids with autism. His father is a doctor, but he is not. And his father was not in the room, and he faked his father's signature, according to the state board of medicine.
▶ 1:45:34Sec. Kennedy: That ruling was overturned by a court. What you are saying is just wrong. It is just a lie. The court said that the maryland board of physicians was guilty of actual malice and fabricated those charges against him.
▶ 1:45:50Sen. Hassan: We will pursue this, and I will submit for the record --
▶ 1:45:58Sec. Kennedy: It was not to run autism research. In 2002, david -- the cdc runs a vaccine safety database, which is supposed to be vaccine information. For the biggest hmos. They are supposed to have a surveillance system. It is a backstop system.
▶ 1:46:22Sec. Kennedy: The cdc would not let any physicians in there to look at it.
▶ 1:46:28Sen. Hassan: He is neither a scientist nor a physician.
▶ 1:46:30Sec. Kennedy: Congress ordered the cdc to open it to the geye rs, so they are the only scientist to have ever been in there.
▶ 1:46:40Sen. Hassan: Mr. geyer is not a scientist.
▶ 1:46:45Sen. Hawley: Did you have a unanimous consent request that I heard in there?
▶ 1:46:50Sen. Hassan: I did. A unanimous consent request for the printout of the website that shows Dr. geyer --not Dr. geyer. That is his father. Mr. geyer is employed. And unanimous consent request for the finding of the state of maryland.
▶ 1:47:10Sen. Hawley: Without objection. Before we get to my time, if you would like to finish her response?
▶ 1:47:19Sec. Kennedy: David geyer is the only living independent scientist who has seen the inside. There has been a lot of monkey business, including allegations of fraud. He was hired by an independent contractor, not as an hhs employee, but by an independent contractor, to look at the documents that we were getting, to see if they conformed with
▶ 1:47:49Sec. Kennedy: What was requested in 2002 and funny 16. That was the only reason he was brought in. So much information has disappeared from that database. The only way we could find out what information disappeared was because he saw it.
▶ 1:48:05Sen. Hassan: And let the record show he is not a scientist. Thank you.
▶ 1:48:08Sen. Hawley: On a different subject, you and I have talked before -- before this committee and in person -- since the last time you were before the committee and the last time we spoke, there has been a major study by the ethics and public policy center of 800 tuesday 5727 described cases of mifepristone chemical abortions between 2017 and 2023. Have you seen the study? Are you familiar with those?
▶ 1:48:40Sen. Hawley: You will remember that this data shows the biggest study on mifepristone done, I think ever. It showed that nearly 11% of women experience very serious adverse health effects to include sepsis, hemorrhaging, infection, forced emergency room visits. By the way, that is 22 times higher -- that rate is 22 times higher than the fda''s current reference, which says it is 0.5. My question to you is this.
▶ 1:49:10Sen. Hawley: You previously testified at the committee that you would do a top to bottom review of mifepristone. You have said you will do a top to bottom review. Do you continue to stand by that? Don't you think this new data shows that the need to do a review is in fact very pressing?
▶ 1:49:28Sec. Kennedy: First of all, invalidates the cas study, which was previously the most comprehensive data we have seen. And it is alarming, and clearly it indicates that at the very least, the label should be changed. I have asked the director of fda to report back.
▶ 1:49:55Sen. Hawley: Good. Do you have any sense of timeline? It will be a top priority for you? Is that safe to say? You say that it is probably the case the label needs to be changed. Do you think it is also important to consider whether it is necessary to put back in place the long-standing safety protocols that always accompanied mifepristone until the last administration? In person dispensing, doctor visits, screening for ectopic pregnancies?
▶ 1:50:22Sec. Kennedy: I know that marty may carry will make a recommendation. The policy changes will ultimately go through the white house and president trump.
▶ 1:50:35Sen. Hawley: But you will make a recommendation based on the data.
▶ 1:50:37Sec. Kennedy: Yes.
▶ 1:50:40Sen. Hawley: On a different subject, talking about the advertising that is routinely done by pharmaceutical companies, you have been a longtime critic of direct to consumer advertising. You wrote in the wall street journal a little over a year ago about the need to revisit guidelines around pharmaceutical advertising.
▶ 1:50:58Sec. Kennedy: Pharmaceutical advertising is particularly insidious because -- commercial advertising is not political speech. It does not have the strict scrutiny applied to political speech.
▶ 1:51:22Sec. Kennedy: The pharmaceutical advertising is unique because if the company's advertising, for example, coca-cola, the consumer has a choice whether to buy it. And he has got skin in the game. The pharmaceutical advertising, it is usually the most important form. They are usually advertising because they want to bury the existence and availability of generic drugs that are much cheaper.
▶ 1:51:52Sec. Kennedy: And the consumer is spending his own money or our money, taxpayer money. Furthermore, the pharmaceutical add -- we are funding it.
▶ 1:52:09Sen. Hawley: Under current law, pharma companies can deduct advertising spending as a business expense.
▶ 1:52:15Sec. Kennedy: I am working very hard on this issue, and we expect to come out in a policy within the next few weeks.
▶ 1:52:24Sen. Hawley: Let's work together. I am using -- I'm introducing legislation to repeal the tax deductibility of these. It is with senator shaheen and his bicameral with both democrat and republican sponsors in the house of representatives. In my view, it is time to get rid of tech base for these companies and in the practice.
▶ 1:52:46Sec. Kennedy: I one hundred percent support.
▶ 1:52:50Sen. Hawley: Let the record reflect I am giving up 15 seconds.
▶ 1:52:55Sec. Kennedy: I assume senator sanders will also support that.
▶ 1:53:02Sen. Hawley: This is coming out of your time.
▶ 1:53:04Sen. Sanders: The answer is yes.
▶ 1:53:11Sen. Hickenlooper: Senator sanders, finish thought, please.
▶ 1:53:14Sen. Sanders: I think along with new zealand, the only countries on earth that allow for pharmaceutical advertising -- I think it is time we ended that.
▶ 1:53:23Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you. Inc. You for taking the time. I'm not going to try to play gotcha. What it is an opportunity to spend a little bit of philosophical time. My question is, do you think our country spends too much on scientific research?
▶ 1:53:41Sec. Kennedy: No.
▶ 1:53:45Sen. Hickenlooper: You know the nih, in terms of violet -- biomedical research, is the largest in the world. I guess when you look at the level of cuts that we are facing over there -- I recognize that a lot of these cuts were imposed on you -- but there is a gap in basic, fundamental research that is going to have to be filled somehow.
▶ 1:54:08Sen. Hickenlooper: Have you got any ideas of how we can do that, given the scale, the dimension, of the loss we are facing?
▶ 1:54:17Sec. Kennedy: My job is to support the president on this. The reality is that, as I have said, no agency had wants to see cuts to his agency. I love scientific research. I'm going to do as much as possible.
▶ 1:54:34Sec. Kennedy: I think because of the -- we are very, very hesitantly implementing ai, and we brought very high-caliber people from silicon valley. We can shorten clinical trials. We can get rid of animal trials. And we can -- we can now --
▶ 1:55:08Sen. Hickenlooper: I'm talking about basic science.
▶ 1:55:11Sec. Kennedy: Epidemiological studies. I think we can do a lot of that stuff. I will take as much money as you give me, and I will spend it well.
▶ 1:55:23Sen. Hickenlooper: More of that research -- there is a question of science right now within many in the white house -- not everyone, but many in the white house. And senator hawley, I will sign onto that bill as well. The second question I have got -- we have had a lot of issues around wildfires in colorado right now.
▶ 1:55:51Sen. Hickenlooper: This is back tonight -- -- to niosh, the national institute of occupational safety and health. You kept them in cleveland and pennsylvania. Pretty much everyone was laid off in colorado. Everyone was laid off in colorado. The question really -- I figure a couple have been ordered to be reinstated. All of the west is dealing with these.
▶ 1:56:21Sen. Hickenlooper: Thousands -- probably hundreds of thousands of people are fighting fires, risking their lives, walking away from their families every day. And the basic research that needs to be done -- the replacements are new on the job. They are not going to be sufficient to address and make sure the specific health needs of these workers, these outdoor workers, are addressed.
▶ 1:56:49Sen. Hickenlooper: The question is how can we, how can you, make sure that those in colorado, like fire fighters, are able to do their job safely?
▶ 1:56:57Sec. Kennedy: A lot of the cuts we are implementing now are painful cuts, and they are cuts that are going to be difficult. I think the president's position is that we are spending $2 trillion we don't have. We are taking it from our children. We have to protect their rights to prosperity, to enrichment and dignity -- to choice.
▶ 1:57:29Sec. Kennedy: So --
▶ 1:57:32Sen. Hickenlooper: I've heard that argument and I appreciate it. I am a voice of frugality in my office. I try to push it around the senate where it is allowed. But we are looking at a budget that is going to increase the deficit by 4 trillion or $5 trillion. To take things like this, that we know are successful, not just for colorado -- for almost every western state, it is essential.
▶ 1:58:00Sen. Hickenlooper: We are saving such a small amount of money for something that is so important. I hope you can push back on that a little bit. Someone has to take a stand for these things that are minor financial benefits, but significant losses to how we provide safety to workers and our citizens.
▶ 1:58:17Sec. Kennedy: I'm happy to work with you, senator.
▶ 1:58:22Sen. Hickenlooper: I yield back.
▶ 1:58:22Chair Cassidy: The committee may adjourn for five minutes, subject to the call of the chair. [pause]
▶ 2:05:16Chair Cassidy: Senator banks, you are next.
▶ 2:05:18Sec. Kennedy: Can I say one thing? I want to clarify an issue we talked about before. Senator marie had raised the issue of a constituent of hers who she said had been denied a place in a clinical trial in washington, due to the riff. We have been able to run down that case. The patient was medically ineligible for that trial.
▶ 2:05:52Sec. Kennedy: Medically ineligible. It had nothing to do with the riff. Nih had been trying to get her into another clinical trial, but none of her clinical trials were shut down because of the riff. That was a canard.
▶ 2:06:04Chair Cassidy: Thank you for the clarification. Sumner banks.
▶ 2:06:11Sen. Banks: Compassion for americans with autism and their families. There is still so much we do not know about the conditions, and there are many questions to be answered. That is why I was glad that you recently announced an autism research database similar to a registry that you created. The nih has more than 80 registries for different diseases, and they are a critical tool to understand disease progression.
▶ 2:06:37Sen. Banks: It even in spite of all that, you were immediately attacked for privacy violations and accused of ulterior motives. Can you tell us today how will this database handle protected health information, and is it an opt in or opt out database?
▶ 2:06:52Sec. Kennedy: Thank you, senator, for asking. There is actually 190 disease databases at my agency. Almost every important disease has a registry. Arthritis has a registry, for example. Heart disease. Various cancers. The registry is intended to help scientists research what causes the etiology of disease, and what the cures are.
▶ 2:07:23Sec. Kennedy: It is entirely voluntary. Patient privacy is protected. The data is digitalized and depersonalized, so that people can find out -- cannot find out who the patient is. And patients have an absolute right to opt out. It is entirely voluntary. What it is an important tool for scientists to understand how to treat diseases.
▶ 2:07:49Sec. Kennedy: If there is a number of people who have used, for example, chile should therapies, you can look at that. You can see what the outcomes were. Or other kinds of therapies. Micro-biome treatments -- all these other various treatments that physicians and frontline treatment nurses and doctors are using across the country to address disease and find out which ones work and which ones don't.
▶ 2:08:17Sen. Banks: You have also been accused of assuming an environmental cause of autism and rejecting a genetic cause. Can we say that your critics are misrepresenting what you really believe?
▶ 2:08:26Sen. Kennedy: I don't think -- I think if -- rejecting the genetic cause, I think they are correct in the sense that autism is an epidemic, and genes do not cause epidemics. They can contribute a vulnerability. It is like cigarettes and smoking. Smoking cigarettes was killing one in every five of its customers.
▶ 2:08:59Sen. Kennedy: That meant four out of five survived. There is a genetic component to the ones who got lung cancer and died. That is a genetic vulnerability. But you also need an environmental toxin. You cannot have a sudden epidemic without an environmental exposure.
▶ 2:09:18Sen. Banks: Have you halted or redirected funding away from any pre-existing autism research?
▶ 2:09:24Sen. Kennedy: I am told, and I have not done this calculation myself, but I am told that there was a 20 21 research ratio for genetic causes of autism in the last 20 years at nih. If you ask me, I believe they did not want to look at the environmental exposures, because they were scared what they would find.
▶ 2:09:53Sen. Kennedy: I don't think we should be funding that genetic work anymore. I think we know a lot about the genes. The genes that control methylation -- all of these are involved, and we know that. What we really need to do now is to identify the environmental toxins.
▶ 2:10:15Sen. Banks: I appreciate greatly your attention and effort on that. Secretary kennedy, we are now importing a third of our medicines from china. It is a public health risk as well as a national security risk. You and I discussed this in your confirmation hearing. I asked you about reassuring medicine production from china during that hearing. I wonder if you can give us any updates on how that is happening.
▶ 2:10:40Sen. Kennedy: I think there are very exciting things happening. Some of it is a direct result of president trump's tariffs. I have been working through it closely with david riggs and eli lilly. I think they have been the most aggressive of the pharmaceutical companies about addressing president trump's comments to onshore production. They have nine facilities now that are breaking ground.
▶ 2:11:07Sen. Kennedy: One of them they are breaking ground on will be, I believe, the biggest facility in the world. These are active pharmaceutical ingredients. China controls that market right now. This single facility could give us dominance in that market. I am very, very optimistic about what is happening.
▶ 2:11:33Sen. Kennedy: I am very grateful to eli lily, which is not always been a big ally of mine. We have been working very closely with the leadership of eli lily to make sure they get what they need to onshore production. We saw during covid that for essential medicines, we cannot afford to have the ingredients offshore to. -- offshored.
▶ 2:12:01Sen. Markey: Senator, olive been hearing from you today is your defense of and advocacy for brutal cuts to medicaid, brutal cuts to nih research to find cures for alzheimer's and cancer and other diseases, brutal cuts to community health centers, brutal cuts to the cdc, and all to find funding for tax cuts for
▶ 2:12:32Sen. Markey: Billionaires and millionaires. That is all I have been hearing. And it is absolutely unbelievable that the secretary of health and human services would come in front of our committee and do such. For months, I have been hearing from people about the impact that you and donald trump have had on them. For months, I have been sharing their stories. Mr.
▶ 2:12:59Sen. Markey: Chairman, I would like to include my make america sick agenda.
▶ 2:13:04Chair Cassidy: Without objection.
▶ 2:13:08Sen. Markey: This is a set of stories that are being told to me that I would like to relate to you. Janet is from massachusetts. A stage cancer patient. There is no cure for her diagnosis. Her life depends on federal investment in research and clinical trials to continue uninterrupted to find a cure for jennifer, with nih funding. She is right to be worried.
▶ 2:13:37Sen. Markey: I heard from henry in rhode island, who wants continued funding for cancer research where he works. He is worried about getting fired, because the nih grants, under new leadership, are cut. He wants to do cancer research to find the cure for jennifer.
▶ 2:14:01Sen. Markey: You already terminated $1.8 billion in nih funding, which for jennifer -- she is losing hope. You were defending a 40% cut, Mr. secretary, and research for cancer, stroke, diabetes, mental health. They are being slowed. They are being slashed. This is not streamlining.
▶ 2:14:28Sen. Markey: It is a bludgeoning of our health future and a giveaway of our global scientific leadership. And it will be people like jennifer who will pay the price. A man from massachusetts wrote to me about his son who died of an overdose. He said his son, zach, was a loving and loved family member who had the illness of addiction. He wants research to cure this disease, funding for treatment.
▶ 2:14:54Sen. Markey: Support for health workers serving people with addiction, to prevent any other family member from suffering from this. Can you honestly tell us, or tell him, that you can cut $1 billion from the substance abuse and mental health administration , including funding for programs to teach first responders how to use naloxone?
▶ 2:15:22Sen. Markey: Can you guarantee that other parents will not use their children? Can you tell me the cuts for addiction treatment across the country will make anyone healthier? How do you justify this cut to substance abuse and mental health?
▶ 2:15:35Sec. Kennedy: Senator markey, you were not here when I was talking earlier, but one of the things I talked about is that the budget for my agency increased by 38% under the biden administration, and americans got sicker, and more americans died from cancer, and we have now an epidemic of colorectal cancers. And the chronic disease rate has gone up to 60%.
▶ 2:16:06Sec. Kennedy: The autism rate has jumped to one in 37 children. In all the money that was supposed to cure those diseases or avert them -- it is not going to work. We need leadership and a new vision. I'm bringing that through my agency, and I'm realigning my agency.
▶ 2:16:23Sen. Markey: President trump is negotiating with the chinese about keeping fentanyl out of our country. In the meantime, we cannot be cutting the programs for the people who are already suffering from opioid-related diseases. If you cut the program -- yes, it would be great if we could reduce it.
▶ 2:16:45Sen. Markey: While we are waiting for that to happen, why would we cut $1 billion from the programs that go to the families that have the substance abuse issues right now? Why would we cut it now before we get a solution to the problem?
▶ 2:17:02Sec. Kennedy: Most of the programs for addiction, including narcan, methadone, housing -- we operate 500 rehabs that give people access under medicaid. We are keeping those intact.
▶ 2:17:24Sec. Kennedy: President trump, because of his leadership, has dropped the fentanyl imports because of his leadership at the border, by 40%. We are actually doing more with less, and we will continue to do that. What I am doing at my agency is I am really -- realigning these perverse incentives. We have driven up costs and driven down health. I'm realigning so people can make money in this country.
▶ 2:17:52Sen. Markey: 80,000 people died last year. This is not about efficiency. Cutting these programs -- these people are already addicted. These people already need help.
▶ 2:18:04Chair Cassidy: Senator markey?
▶ 2:18:08Sen. Markey: Thank you, Mr. chair. >> thank you for being here. I think it is wonderful that we are doing this hearing. Thank you, Mr. chairman. I think this is the health committee's first hhs budget hearing in more than two decades. I don't think this afternoon has been easy on you, and we are grateful that you are willing to answer the hard questions and have the difficult discussions.
▶ 2:18:36Sen. Markey: If I heard you correctly, 60%, 50% increase in the last five years in your agency, you said, reflected or resulted in people getting sicker and more people dying. And we have to do more than just think throwing money at something is going to solve the problem. I am grateful for everyone that is stepping up in the cabinet and saying I want to do this job in a deliberate way that is going to deliver for the people.
▶ 2:19:08Sen. Markey: That means more than just coming here to washington and throwing money at problems and spending taxpayer money without giving a lot of deliberate forethought to results. And I think that is what you have been trying to say here today. I appreciate you tackling this, because not many people would want to brave this job at this moment in time.
▶ 2:19:27Sen. Markey: And as our nation is spiraling out of control, and more and more debt, and more and more spending, we have got to be responsible for the future stability and success of this country. Thank you. I start there. I also note that in some of the numbers we saw in this proposal, there was not much information in terms of asking for more money. Specifically related to the fda. I wanted to focus on a few things.
▶ 2:19:58Sen. Markey: I believe your approach is probably going to be how can we do better and use the resources we have to do more for the american people without spending more money. One of those ways, I believe, in the fda, would be to tackle chinese illicit vapes. I think 60% of the vaped market that is in no way regulated -- we do not know what are in these chemical written vapes all over the united states, being bought by all of our kids.
▶ 2:20:27Sen. Markey: I would ask that you dig into that and look at that. I know the fda has been backlogged. Excuses kept coming out on why they were not following through and enforcing this. Meanwhile, we have more and more kids that are vaping these chemicals, and we have no idea what is in them. Would you look at that in your department, using the resources you are asking for today?
▶ 2:20:49Sec. Kennedy: Absolutely. We are looking at it right now. During the biden administration, the fda slow walked the approvals for U.S. vaping companies. The U.S. vaping companies, in my view, were acting very responsibly, including chips that would make sure that young people could not use them. They were getting good information about addiction.
▶ 2:21:22Sec. Kennedy: And they had very extensive labels. They really went out of their way not to make it attractive to children. They were slow walked, so they are off the market. In order to fill the vacuum, hundreds of chinese companies came in with these colored, beautifully attractive -- >> watermelon.
▶ 2:21:43Sec. Kennedy: They are targeted to kids. They have video games on the vapes. Quick so you are in tune with that?
▶ 2:21:55Sec. Kennedy: We are going to wipe them out. We are going to get rid of them. Ask on behalf of all moms of teenagers -- we thank you. Using these resources that are given to you, the more deliberate and aggressive in what we're doing with the agency. I think it will make a huge difference. I want to direct your attention to one important issue.
▶ 2:22:16Sec. Kennedy: One of the things that drives me crazy is when nonsense regulations are on the books and they have no benefit whatsoever, and yet they are on the books and businesses are trying to comply with them. Our citrus industry, our orange juice producers -- there is a regulation that requires a certain sugar content. It does not affect quality or nutrition at all. In fact, oranges produced in florida produce slightly less sugar.
▶ 2:22:44Sec. Kennedy: But because of this arbitrary standard, producers of orange juice in florida have had to start importing from foreign nations oranges into our country to mix with our products, to deliver orange juice. This standard does not affect quality.
▶ 2:23:01Sec. Kennedy: To raise the sugar content in the orange juice? >> we want to lower the sugar content in this regulation. Would you look into an interim final rule to save the orange juice industry domestically?
▶ 2:23:15Sec. Kennedy: Why don't you call heather flick? We will act on this as quickly as we can. >> being smarter in our approach, we can do a lot to save a once thriving industry. Thank you.
▶ 2:23:38Sen. Kim: I had a fire captain show up to my town hall, someone who worked at ground zero. He was diagnosed with cancer. He said he is on borrowed time. And he was livid -- absolutely livid, about the administration gutting the world trade center health program. You talk through some of these cuts that have happened before -- some staff cuts, some may be brought back on. I just need to hear from you.
▶ 2:24:10Sen. Kim: I promised this fire captain I would ask him about this. What in the world happened? Why was the staff cut for this program? What are we to expect, going forward? Why was it cut to start with?
▶ 2:24:27Sec. Kennedy: It was -- it was part of the overall budget cuts. Our agency was asked to make very, very serious budget cuts that were going to be painful. Some of them should not have been made. That was one that should not.
▶ 2:24:50Sen. Kim: Were you unaware -- were you aware that the decision to cut niosh staff would cut the world trade center health program?
▶ 2:25:01Sec. Kennedy: My agency is the biggest agency in government. It is twice the size of the pentagon. It represents 20% of the U.S. economy. We have hundreds of institutes and sub agencies. We try to be as careful as we can about what we cut. We made a couple of mistakes. That was one of them.
▶ 2:25:20Sen. Kennedy: -- Sen. kim: I don't think you were being as careful as you could. What we have seen, rushing these decisions --
▶ 2:25:29Sec. Kennedy: I understand that if you look at this from a distance, you would say why don't you just do this surgically and cut one person at a time. This agency has grown so big, so fast, and every person that comes in says I am going to cut it down, and they do not do it. It was an understanding that the longer you wait, the more the inertia kicks in.
▶ 2:25:58Sec. Kennedy: We had to act quickly so that we can do something for the american people that is lasting. We understood that there would be some mistakes made, and that we would go back and reverse them. It was more important to do decisive action quickly that could eliminate the metastasizing of this agency, which was growing, growing, growing, as our health declined.
▶ 2:26:25Sen. Kim: Where is this going to land now? Can you tell us that the world trade center health program will go back to where it was before you became secretary?
▶ 2:26:34Sec. Kennedy: That program will continue. There will be continuity in that program.
▶ 2:26:39Sen. Kim: But at full strength, where it was before you were secretary? The fire captain also raised this issue about the national firefighter cancer registry, also something I promised him I would ask you about. Why was that shut down?
▶ 2:26:57Sec. Kennedy: The answer is I don't know about that.
▶ 2:27:00Sen. Kim: You don't know about this? What I will tell you about this --
▶ 2:27:04Sec. Kennedy: I'm happy to work with you.
▶ 2:27:08Sen. Kim: There is a national firefighter cancer registry. This is something that is part of niosh. Because of the cuts, when I go to the website, it says the information on this page is not currently being updated and access to tool is limited. Firefighters can no longer enroll in the national firefighter registry for cancer. I raise this because this is incredibly important, not just for those at ground zero, but written large across our nation, trained to help our firefighters.
▶ 2:27:36Sen. Kim: Can you promise me that we will work together and try to get this back up and running as soon as possible?
▶ 2:27:40Sec. Kennedy: I will work with you on these issues.
▶ 2:27:44Sen. Kim: I understand what you are saying when it comes to your prioritization, what I have to tell you it is sending an absolutely disastrous message, especially to our firefighters. I hope that on the list of things in this congress that we think are bipartisan or unanimous, it should be about supporting our heroes at the world trade center, especially when we have more firefighters who have died since 9/11 because of medical issues they had working at ground zero and the number of firefighters that died
▶ 2:28:15Sen. Kim: On september 11. So if we cannot even agree on that, if that is not seen as a high enough priority to try to protect, and I am worried about everything else that is more controversial, has less unanimity. Secretary, I will follow up with you on the national registry. And I do want a firm answer on the final staffing at the world trade center health program. With that, I will yield back.
▶ 2:28:39Sec. Kennedy: Thank you, senator.
▶ 2:28:41Chair Cassidy: Senator murray has returned. She has asked for 30 seconds to respond to the secretary. >> take me down to 4:30.
▶ 2:28:58Chair Cassidy: I can give you more. >> you better, thank you.
▶ 2:29:04Sen. Moreno: -- Sen. murray: secretary kennedy said my constituent I spoke about earlier was not delayed by staffing cuts. First off, she is already enrolled in that clinical trial. It is not a question of eligibility. The issue, as I stated clearly, was a delay in care that she got. What you stated, it was not true. I spoke with natalie last night.
▶ 2:29:30Sen. Moreno: She asked her doctor directly why, when she was informed of the delay, and her doctor at nih said very plainly twice that the procurement was delayed because of staffing cuts. It is important for the record to show my staff has put in inquiries with hhs leadership, and they have been unresponsive so far. And to make it clear, this is just one piece of many, but those are the facts.
▶ 2:29:58Chair Cassidy: Senator scott.
▶ 2:30:02Sen. Scott: Thank you for being here with us today. I often hear you say "happy to work with you." you said it to senator kennedy and a person who has asked you to work on a number of topics. When you say happy to work with you, you have been a man of your word. I appreciate that. We talked about sickle cell anemia and research being done. I invited you down to south carolina, and you took me up on my offer and came last month.
▶ 2:30:33Sen. Scott: I appreciate you taking the time to invest the energy to talk about an issue that is critical to so many folks, specifically african-americans. As a guide that is thankful we are working to eliminate diversity, equity, and inclusion in the federal government, I do not want some folks to think that all things racial are somehow d.e.I. Sickle-cell anemia is a classic example of something that has a racial axis, but it is not diversity, equity, or inclusion.
▶ 2:31:02Sen. Scott: It is a basic fact that african americans, 99.9% of the time, are the folks who suffer from sickle-cell anemia. If you go beyond sickle-cell anemia, you find there are diseases that have a consistent presence in minority communities. That end, I think it is really important that we continue to work together, building on issues impacting minority and other communities.
▶ 2:31:29Sen. Scott: I would love, secretary kennedy, as we move through this reorganization you are currently going through -- I would like for you to answer, will you commit that programs involving minority health will continue and not get cut -- not get tied unnecessarily and inappropriately to d.e.I.?
▶ 2:31:46Sec. Kennedy: Absolutely, we will continue. I think one of the minority health programs has been terminated. It was one that was deeply embedded with the d.e.I. Ideology. But there are others that are going to continue. I want to thank you for inviting me to south carolina. That was a wonderful trip. I got to witness a microcosm for how medicine works.
▶ 2:32:14Sec. Kennedy: What you have brought together under your leadership -- hospital systems, pharmaceutical companies, biotech companies that develop this new technology for treating sickle-cell. And patients. And they had all worked together to make it affordable, so that south carolina now has this extraordinary room. In south carolina, you can get 100% funding. I think it is 100%.
▶ 2:32:44Sen. Scott: Very close to. I will ask the questions, the period in her questions. For all the parents of children with sickle-cell, can you please just reassure them that the administration of health will work on sickle-cell and addressing minority issues? A simple yes or no. And will the full budget, when it is released, reflect funding for both the office of minority health and sickle-cell activities that used to be housed in cdc?
▶ 2:33:14Sec. Kennedy: Absolutely. I will make that commitment. I had a company in this morning, meeting with fda, that has a new technology that seems as effective and may be even more economical, and I am very excited. I am excited to show it to you. If it makes it through the trials at fda, absolutely, I am going to continue to make that a priority at the agency.
▶ 2:33:42Sen. Scott: Let me change the topic quickly. I really appreciate the work you are doing, frankly, as it relates to addressing how our food supply continues to chronic diseases, including the phasing out of petroleum based as part of your make america healthy movement. I'm encouraged by the approval of three new natural color additives.
▶ 2:34:09Sen. Scott: During your confirmation hearing, I shared your passion for shaping the food industry. You are doing just what you said you were going to do as relates to food additives. Because of your bold actions regarding petroleum-based food additives, the food industry responded by getting rid of these dies, in favor of natural alternatives. Thank you for your work in bringing healthier food options for our kids.
▶ 2:34:37Sen. Scott: Can you talk about how you will use your position to continue to build on your work eliminating artificial food dyes to further improve the quality of foods sold to americans in our quest to make americans healthy?
▶ 2:34:53Sec. Kennedy: One of the big areas of neglect has been linking specific food additives and food processes to the chronic disease epidemic. Nih has neglected that area of study. It is now the central focus of nih.
▶ 2:35:14Sec. Kennedy: We will be looking at ultra processed foods and sugars, and the 10,000 additives that are in our food and nobody else's food in the world, and looking at the impact so that we can put accurate labeling on. And when they are really dangerous, we can revoke their authorizations.
▶ 2:35:37Sen. Scott: Thank you, sir. >> thank you, chairman cassidy, ranking member sanders. Welcome, Mr. secretary. I have nothing personal against you. I don't even know you. But what I do know as the former deputy secretary of health and social services in delaware, is how important your agency is to the lives of so many people in our country.
▶ 2:36:08Sen. Scott: During the confirmation, your confusion over medicaid versus medicare did not instill a lot of confidence. But today, as you talk about this -- these budget cuts being painful. -- being painful, I'm reminded of delaware ian's who have come up to me and cried and said, please don't let folks take away my medicaid. Individuals with disabilities.
▶ 2:36:35Sen. Scott: Why are you talking about cutting this large, large department -- there are talks about including more things from the department of education. So I am concerned about that. When we met in january, you committed to radical transparency, responding to all congressional inquiries within 30 days. Since then, we have sent dozens of letters, and to my knowledge, like senator hassan, I have not received any responses.
▶ 2:37:07Sen. Scott: Given your stated commitment to transparency and your focus on efficiency, and your opening comments, I think this is a great opportunity to get your commitment that you will respond to the letters from this committee, and also an opportunity to maybe talk about a few of the things that I wrote to you about. So let's begin with this letter. In march, I wrote to you expressing my concern about the delayed meeting of the federal vaccine experts.
▶ 2:37:38Sen. Scott: The meaning of this committee is a key step in getting vaccines to millions of people, and delays can have negative impacts on vaccine accessibility and affordability. While I am doubt -- I'm glad the meeting happen, we are approaching flu season and the committee has still not adopted the recommendations. I can understand the delay, given there is no current cdc director. Given the spirit of radical transparency, I question is, who is the acting cdc director?
▶ 2:38:10Sec. Kennedy: The acting director was susan, but she is now up for permanent director. So she has been replaced by met his oley.
▶ 2:38:36Sec. Kennedy: >> this this person have a medical license or public health expertise? So the fact that the recommendations are kind of stuck, and that you kind of have --
▶ 2:38:50Sen. Kennedy: Can I clarify something? They do not do the flu shot. >> I don't want to get into the specifics of that. My question was more about do we have a cdc director. And then I want to enter into the record information about what harms could be caused until we get one. I would love to shift gears. But this was my question. This is my time.
▶ 2:39:23Sen. Kennedy: We are senators, and so I don't want to have the same exchange that happened before with other people. I just want to ask my questions. I wanted to shift gears. Your proposed compassionate budget would cut funding for multiple maternal and childhood programs. As a new parent, I remember learning that my baby should sleep on their back. The nih safe to sleep campaign, you shuttered.
▶ 2:39:49Sen. Kennedy: After launching this campaign in 1994, the rate of sudden infant deaths dropped by 50%. Many parents in this room may be remember getting their children screen for hearing loss and rare diseases. That program has also been shuttered. You cut programs that collected data on ivf, maternal health, infant mortality -- all while president trump is calling himself the fertilization president. None of these policies are based in compassion.
▶ 2:40:20Sen. Kennedy: My only concern with, following up on senator kim's question, is understanding what goes into gutting a program that has increased the efficacy of parents being able to take care of their children. My time is expired, but I will just say again -- a budget is a reflection of priorities.
▶ 2:40:49Sen. Kennedy: To me, this budget, the cuts to medicaid that are talked about right now in the house of representatives are going to have real, like you said, painful impacts on people's lives. I hope there is some real compassion in the end, and I hope you hear from our constituents as we have heard from them as well. And we will continue to try to fight for them. I yield back.
▶ 2:41:17Sec. Kennedy: I don't have time to respond but I will assure you that I will act with compassion. >> Mr. secretary, I'm over here. I have been sitting through this hearing all day today, and have noted you have been unable in most instances to answer any specific questions related to your agency.
▶ 2:41:39Sec. Kennedy: That's because I have not been given time.
▶ 2:41:44Sen. Alsobrooks: You have been given time. The matter is you have been unable to answer civic questions. You had in this hearing today the unmitigated gall to say at the beginning of your testimony that china is ahead of the united states in health care because china does not have d.e.I.
▶ 2:42:05Sec. Kennedy: I did not say that.
▶ 2:42:09Sen. Alsobrooks: We can roll back the tape. That is absolutely what you said.
▶ 2:42:12Sec. Kennedy: I was talking about science. I did not say -- some forms of science, certainly.
▶ 2:42:19Sen. Alsobrooks: We can rollback the tape. Nonetheless, I'm going to go on with my questions. You just heard about the safe to sleep campaign. You have made cuts. You made it very clear today you have no knowledge whatsoever of the absolutely amazing scientists and researchers who you have callously fired. You know nothing about --
▶ 2:42:40Sen. Kennedy: -- sec. Kennedy: I did not fire any working scientists.
▶ 2:42:47Sen. Alsobrooks: That is not true. The safe to sleep campaign -- can you name which office the safe to sleep campaign operates out of?
▶ 2:42:55Sec. Kennedy: Which campaign?
▶ 2:42:59Sen. Alsobrooks: That is the one the senator ask you about two minutes ago that prevents babies from dying in their sleep. A 30 year program inside your agency.
▶ 2:43:07Sec. Kennedy: I think it is part of nursing. Or acf. They are all within health and human services. The subdivision is acf.
▶ 2:43:21Sen. Alsobrooks: Actually, it is --
▶ 2:43:24Sec. Kennedy: Department of children and families.
▶ 2:43:28Sen. Alsobrooks: It is actually the one that your aunt, eunice kennedy shriver, is the person who it is named after. You noted just a moment ago -- the senator reminded you that although this is a very important agency that prevents babies from dying, he fired every single person in this office as of april 1.
▶ 2:43:50Sec. Kennedy: As I said, there were no working scientists fired.
▶ 2:43:54Sen. Alsobrooks: We can bring you that information later because what you just said is not true. The question also is, in addition to firing the individuals who make sure babies don't die in their sleep, why did you cut funding and staff from the cdc's national center on birth defects and development and disabilities? Is that a mistake? I heard you say you made some mistakes today. Was that also a mistake?
▶ 2:44:21Sec. Kennedy: We switched those programs, the administration for healthy america. They have not been cut.
▶ 2:44:30Sen. Alsobrooks: Well, the funding has been cut. This is the one that oversaw the special olympics. Are you aware of that?
▶ 2:44:38Sec. Kennedy: I cut the special olympics?
▶ 2:44:41Sen. Alsobrooks: You cut the funding and dismantled the department of health and facility -- infertility. You are aware of that, right?
▶ 2:44:50Sec. Kennedy: We have 42 divisions that do maternal health, and we are consolidating them. Mainstream media has portrayed those as cuts. They are not cuts. They are consolidations. It is ridiculous to have 42 divisions that are all supposed to be doing the same thing.
▶ 2:45:15Sen. Alsobrooks: It has been dismantled. That is a fact, that particular division.
▶ 2:45:20Sec. Kennedy: There are 42 agencies of maternal health to be consolidated.
▶ 2:45:25Sen. Alsobrooks: The fact of the matter is you have dismantled as we speak. Are you aware? What does the assistant -- what does assisted reproductive technology mean to you? Are you familiar with that?
▶ 2:45:37Sec. Kennedy: Are you talking about ivf?
▶ 2:45:41Sen. Alsobrooks: It is a division. Do you know what it does?
▶ 2:45:45Sec. Kennedy: Is it part of nih?
▶ 2:45:49Sen. Alsobrooks: No, it is actually part of your agency.
▶ 2:45:53Sec. Kennedy: Nih is part of your agency.
▶ 2:45:59Sen. Alsobrooks: But the cdc is where it is. Let me ask you -- you seem unfamiliar with the programs.
▶ 2:46:09Sec. Kennedy: You are unfamiliar with my agency. These are part of hhs.
▶ 2:46:19Sen. Alsobrooks: Nih is in my county. I was there this weekend. I absolutely know where nih is, sir. I don't need any help from you. Thank you for your time.
▶ 2:46:29Chair Cassidy: Senator, did you have something you wanted on the record? You mentioned something but did not formally asked, and I want to make sure.
▶ 2:46:40Sen. Blunt Rochester: I would like to introduce this into the record. It is -- the cdc has no acting director.
▶ 2:46:50Chair Cassidy: Without objection, that is entered into the record.
▶ 2:46:55Sen. Sanders: I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record letters that raise concerns about the hhs reorganization, budget, and riffs. I also ask unanimous consent that these two articles go into the record.
▶ 2:47:10Chair Cassidy: Without objection. For any senator wishing to ask additional questions, questions for the record will be due in 10 business days, on may 28 at 5:00 p.m. Thank you again, secretary kennedy, for being here. The committee stands adjourned.