▶ 0:19:40Chair Risch: United states senate foreign relations committee will come to order. Good morning. We welcome you here for what we believe to be -- will be an important and informative hearing. We welcome all of you in the audience. The rules are pretty clear. We are glad to have you here. There will be no protesting in here and will be subject to the usual rules and met with zero tolerance.
▶ 0:20:08Chair Risch: Arrests and banning from the committee. There are people suffering from that right now who made that mistake early on and haven't been back since. Like I said, we enjoy having everyone here, but this is business of the united states that needs to be conducted uninterrupted. Today, what we bring to you, the distinguished ranking member and I have worked hard to identify areas that really need to be probed.
▶ 0:20:40Chair Risch: Today, we are going to probe arguably one of the most difficult and frustrating places on the planet. That is africa. Specifically, eastern africa.
▶ 0:20:53Chair Risch: All of us know that the united states has a clear, national security, economic interest in the east, east africa, the horn of africa region the region borders key maritime trade routes through the red sea and the gulf of aden and jose military presence at the base in djibouti. Also conducting robust counterterrorism operations, largely focused on somalia in partnership with kenya and others in the region.
▶ 0:21:20Chair Risch: In recent years, violent conflicts in ethiopia, sudan, and somalia destabilized the region. These conflicts provide fertile ground for violent extremist groups like al-shabaab, isis. They enable malign actors like china, iran, and russia and devastate local populations and U.S. national security alike. Sudan in particular is a crisis that too few americans recognize as the world's deadliest ongoing conflict.
▶ 0:21:50Chair Risch: The sudanese people are enduring atrocities on a staggering scale. Genocide in darfur for, mass displacement, and famine across multiple regions. Sudan is a hotbed of instability and direct threat to U.S. national security interests. There are no good options are easy outcomes, but that only heightens the need for U.S. attention and leadership. Over the last four years come the U.S.
▶ 0:22:16Chair Risch: Reactions to this crisis, and many others on the continent, where fragmented, reactive, and ineffective. President trump and this administration have already acted to protect national security in the region. President trump's first term, his administration engaged in talks with kenya over a potential free-trade agreement, a first for sub-saharan africa. Now, secretary rubio and senior officials have ramped up engagement and confronted threats from al-shabaab and the islamic state.
▶ 0:22:46Chair Risch: These efforts cannot be silent. They must be part of a broad, strategic effort to protect american interests in africa while also protecting the U.S. taxpayer's pocketbook. That means being clear eyed about our potential existing partners -- potential and existing partners in the region. In many cases the governments are not wholly legitimate raising the question if engagement is worth the cost. South sudan.
▶ 0:23:13Chair Risch: It's a government exists on a peace agreement that signatories routinely violate. The U.S. played a central role in the country's creation, a legacy that has carried a financial cost well above 10 billion dollars in assistance since independence in 2011. Yet, the returns on this investment in terms of securing sustainable peace in a functional state are marginal at best, and arguably diminishing.
▶ 0:23:41Chair Risch: Additionally, ethiopia, kenya, uganda face challenges that severely limit what U.S. investment can do. This fact, unfortunately, demands our restraint. Many african nations maintain troubling ties with china, including key national security partners. Last month, president rudo declared kenya a major non-nato ally and china are co-architects of a new world order.
▶ 0:24:10Chair Risch: That isn't just alignment to china come is -- alignment to china, it is allegiance. Relying on leaders who embrace beijing so openly is an error. It is time to reassess our relationship with kenya and others who forge tight bonds with china.
▶ 0:24:30Chair Risch: It isn't just an embracement of china, but also the "new world order." there still countries were meaningful engagement is possible, but only with sober judgment and clear eyed realism. We must stop building U.S. policy in africa around individual leaders, and instead focus on strengthening institutions, expanding private sector ties, and empowering the region's young and dynamic populations.
▶ 0:24:56Chair Risch: We hold this hearing at a moment of profound urgency, but also real opportunity, by tailoring our strategy and spending to align with the potential of partners in the region we can build stronger partnerships that serve africa and U.S. national interests, ultimately making america safer, stronger, and are prosperous. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today. With that, I turn to our distinguished ranking member, senator shaheen.
▶ 0:25:24Sen. Shaheen: Like you, I am delighted that we are able to hold this hearing today. I want to welcome our witnesses. I think that there is a lot of agreement on both sides of the aisle about the importance of africa to the united states and the need to engage more there. The united states has a critical role to play on the continent.
▶ 0:25:52Sen. Shaheen: Last month, rwanda and the democratic republic of congo signed a declaration of principles on ending a brutal 30-year war. It has not quite ended yet, however, it is a positive step and is the result of deliberate, diplomatic work carried out over many years on a bipartisan basis. Unfortunately, this administration's cuts to foreign aid programs have been very damaging when we look at what we need to do on the continent of africa.
▶ 0:26:16Sen. Shaheen: While reports from the state department indicate that life-saving aid continues to flow, what my staff who traveled to africa three weeks ago saw on the ground was very different. We have some pictures that they took from that trip. This is a clinic that was for an hiv-aids prevention site for girls in south africa.
▶ 0:26:44Sen. Shaheen: Sadly come you can see that it has been closed because of all of the prevention activities around hiv-aids on the continent have been shut down. This is a photo, also in south africa, of a clinic for vulnerable children again around addressing hiv-aids. It has also been shut down as the result of the stop in foreign assistance.
▶ 0:27:10Sen. Shaheen: This final picture is a hospital in angola where usaid used to provide ready to use therapeutic foods to address starvation, famine. While there are still cans, those are formula and not the ready to use therapeutic foods. They are totally out of those.
▶ 0:27:30Sen. Shaheen: I hope our witnesses today will talk about the impact that cuts to those life-saving aid programs have on the security of not just the people of africa but of the united states. As we know, what happens there doesn't stay in africa. We see the impact in the united states. Rationing hiv drugs gives the virus a chance to mutate into drug-resistant strains.
▶ 0:28:00Sen. Shaheen: I hope you will talk about the competition for influence in africa between the united states and china. The chairman mentioned that in his remarks and it is something that we are seeing. This is a map that was done in 2023 that shows the influence of china in africa.
▶ 0:28:24Sen. Shaheen: I wish that we had the one that we had in the armed services committee several years ago that compares china's impact in africa to the united states, because they are eating our lunch. You can see the red is where the p.r.c. Has really put a focus on the countries in africa. There is -- you can see the chinese base in djibouti. There it shows the 2000 military troops who are deployed in africa by the chinese.
▶ 0:28:57Sen. Shaheen: 1775 peacekeepers who support four u.n. Peacekeeping operations. Again, chinese. It is significant that we are not competing militarily or diplomatically in africa and now the foreign assistance front.
▶ 0:29:18Sen. Shaheen: One stark example is a U.S.-backed initiative that we've spent years developing and investing in that would create a route for central africa's natural resources to flow east out to the atlantic. Meanwhile, china has a competing railway project in tanzania that would send natural east to the indian ocean. I think that I said that wrong. It would send resources west to the atlantic.
▶ 0:29:45Sen. Shaheen: It is in our interest and of those in the region for the united states to come out on top in the situations. One piece of legislation that has shown its value time and again is the women peace and security act, legislation that passed with bipartisan support in both houses and signed into law by president trump during his first term. Our armed forces have made great use of it, especially in africa. It gives us a real advantage over our chinese competitors.
▶ 0:30:17Sen. Shaheen: Sadly, this is a program that secretary hegseth has decided to discontinue, because he claims it is a d.e.I. Program, which it is not. Where wps authorities allow us to gather intelligence from women and families, we can counter violent extremism and can advance our interest and invest in east africa and the horn.
▶ 0:30:45Sen. Shaheen: As you talk about the opportunities in the region, hope that you will lay out some of the economic and foreign-policy tools that we can use to achieve success. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
▶ 0:31:00Chair Risch: Thank you, senator shaheen. We have two very distinguished witnesses with us today. We will start by hearing from Mr. joshua meservey, a senior fellow at the hudson institute where he focuses on great power competition in africa, african geopolitics, and counterterrorism. He was previously a research fellow forever africa the heritage foundation, worked at the atlantic council africa center for the U.S. army special operations command, and for church world service in nairobi, kenya.
▶ 0:31:29Chair Risch: He is a returning peace corps volunteer who served in zambia and extended his service there to work for the U.S. centers for disease control and prevention. Mr. meservey holds a master of arts in law and diplomacy from the fletcher school at tufts university and a b.a. In history from the templeton honors college at eastern university. Mr. meservey, the floor is yours.
▶ 0:31:53Mr. Meservey: Thank you. Chairman risch, ranking member shaheen, members of the committee, thank you for the honor to testify today and your attention on an important region of the world. I am a senior fellow at the hudson institute. My views are my own and do not represent an official session of hudson.
▶ 0:32:16Mr. Meservey: East africa is important to the prosperity and safety of americans because of its natural resources, large populations, and fast growing economies it has strong potential as an vestment destination, market for american goods, and potential technological breakthroughs. The region's strategic importance is inescapable. It commands an important chokepoint and lane through the red sea which has a dense concentration of submarine cables.
▶ 0:32:44Mr. Meservey: It about saudi arabia and yemen and djibouti hosts american, chinese, and other military bases. The security situation could easily worsen, including sudan, a conflict that is sowing and stability, extracting immense human toll, and providing opportunities for american competitors.
▶ 0:33:05Mr. Meservey: The region could soon host three devastating wars if ethiopia and eritrea start fighting and of south sudan's leaders continue their brinksmanship. Somalia's islamist terrorist group al-shabaab is retaking territory as the government in mogadishu remains mired in corruption and dysfunction. In good news, which the trump administration deserves credit, the detente is proceeding although the progress is incomplete and reversible.
▶ 0:33:35Mr. Meservey: Further instability will heighten the cost of the U.S. economy and the dangers to americans in the region, and make it very hard for washington to seize the opportunities there. Additionally, the U.S.'s primary geopolitical competitors and friendlier, but still challenging, countries are prioritizing the region. In djibouti, china built a military base to host a chinese aircraft carrier or nuclear submarine.
▶ 0:34:00Mr. Meservey: I participating in anti-piracy trolls and the gulf eight income it's vessels have gained experience that can be used against taiwan or the south china sea. It's companies are involved in ports build important government buildings, and senior chinese officials have visited over 100 times since 1960 three. Russia recently reach an agreement to put a logistics center in port sudan.
▶ 0:34:26Mr. Meservey: This follows naval visits to eritrea, a naval agreement with ethiopia, and a flurry of high-level diplomatic agreements between moscow and teeth african -- and teeth african countries. The first iranian president visited africa in over a decade. He visited uganda and kenya. Tehran normalized relations with sudan the same year and started the process with somalia last year.
▶ 0:34:52Mr. Meservey: Iranian weapons are currently helping and previously helped the ethiopian government prevail in the tigre war. Qatar, the uae and saudi arabia have invested in africa and made large loans and involved themselves in different ways and the various conflicts.
▶ 0:35:12Mr. Meservey: The uae has funneled so much material to the rapid support forces in sudan that it is likely the only reason that the rss has been able to sustain the operational tempo that it has. There are many ways for washington to ensure that americans benefit from the opportunities in east africa while protecting against the threats.
▶ 0:35:32These Include: First, an east african strategy integrated into a broader africa and global strategy. Commercial engagement should be at the core of any such strategy. It is critical as well to quickly fill the senior africa focus positions at the state department and in nessie. Number two, conduct sober assessments of washington's ability to positively influence democratic growth and proceed accordingly.
▶ 0:35:58These Include: For instance, state building in somalia is a failed experiment, yet washington has not pivoted from over a decade of trying the same thing over and over. Three, upgrade washington's abilities to support african government and civic institutions and avoid overreliance on personalities. Finally, develop a country-focused framework.
▶ 0:36:24These Include: Washington should concentrate finite resources on countries with a baseline level of competence, strategic importance, and willingness to work with the U.S. the situation in east africa is difficult, yet aggressive and sustained U.S. diplomacy could avert the worst consequences for the U.S. and reap demonstrable benefits for americans. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today, and I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:36:47Chair Risch: Thank you for those thoughtful comments. We will turn to ambassador michelle gavin, the ralph bunche senior fellow for africa on the council of foreign relations. She is the representative to the southern african development community from 2011-2014.
▶ 0:37:11Chair Risch: She was a special assistant to present out obama and the senior director for africa at the national security council, where she led major policy reviews of sudan and somalia. You previously served as the managing director of the africa center in new york and was an international affairs fellow and adjunct fellow for africa on the council of foreign relations. Early in her career, she worked in the U.S.
▶ 0:37:33Chair Risch: Senate where she was the senate foreign relations committee's subcommittee on african affairs.certainly come a distinguished position . She was the director of international policy issues for senator russ feingold and legislative director for senator ken salazar. Ms.
▶ 0:37:52Chair Risch: Gavin received a masters in philosophy and international relations from oxford university, where she was a rhodes scholar and earned her ba from georgetown university's school of foreign service. Ambassador gavin, the floor is yours.
▶ 0:38:09Ms. Gavin: Thank you so much, it is wonderful to have this opportunity to appear before you and discuss the complex and challenging set of issues that the U.S. confront. I want to thank the staff. I know from personal experience how much work goes into preparing for these hearings.
▶ 0:38:29Chair Risch: Yes, you do.
▶ 0:38:31Ms. Gavin: And I'm grateful for that as well. Obviously, the role of congress in africa policy has a really long history. It has often been an oasis of bipartisan cooperation. It is one reason that I enjoyed working on it for so long.
▶ 0:38:51Ms. Gavin: There are numerous historical examples of congress really elevating issues that sometimes a busy executive branch is, perhaps, neglecting. Of course, as has been discussed, the forces pulling the horn of africa apart are gaining strength. They are real, imminent rights to stability and several other east african countries.
▶ 0:39:21Ms. Gavin: Nothing is more searing than sudan's shockingly destructive war which shows no sign of ending. The recent wave of drone attacks on port sudan, along with the rss's sustained pressure, confirm that it is, indeed possible, for this terrible situation, the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, to get even worse. Famine on a scale that the world has not seen in decades remains not just a possibility but a likelihood. We have multiple civil conflicts that are persisting in ethiopia.
▶ 0:39:54Ms. Gavin: The prime minister's mission to gain a presence on the red sea has raised tensions with ethiopia's neighbors. Somalia continues to struggle for a modicum of effective governance while battling al qaeda's largest global affiliate, al-shabaab, and dealing with a chapter of the islamic state.
▶ 0:40:19Ms. Gavin: China, russia, saudi arabia, the uae, qatar, turkey, all of these are active in the region and many are clearly thinking about their relationships in the horn of africa through a long-term strategic linens. They are investing in influence. Because their interests do not always aligned they are engaging in proxy conflict. We see this clearly in sudan.
▶ 0:40:46Ms. Gavin: It is frankly, less clear that the united states has a strategic vision for its relationship with the region. Long-standing problems of understaffed embassies and insufficient prioritization of african issues have joined the immediate shock of these very abrupt changes in foreign assistance and international humanitarian aid delivery to make it very easy for adversaries to paint the united states as an interested and unreliable.
▶ 0:41:14Ms. Gavin: Other anti-american messages capitalize on the fact that the U.S. has been the most powerful country of the world through the post-cold war era and paid washington as the enforcer of a painful, unjust status quo, one reason why there is enthusiasm for the brics group in the region and one reason why I am concerned about cuts to voice of america, which has provided alternatives to global issues.
▶ 0:41:44Ms. Gavin: This widespread perception of disengagement exists despite the fact that the united states, as you rightly noted, have clear, vital interests in this part of the world, not the least the free flow of commerce through the red sea and combating terrorist organizations with very well documented intent, and in many cases experience, track records, of harming americans. Part of the problem is uncertainty about just what the U.S. wishes to see in the region.
▶ 0:42:14Ms. Gavin: What kind of east africa is in the U.S. interest? We would benefit from a region at peace, with capable governments that can be partners in addressing existing and emerging threats. We would benefit from a region with growing economies that can become trading partners, attractive investment destinations, potential collaborators in new enterprises. We would benefit from a region vitally that is not beholden to U.S.
▶ 0:42:41Ms. Gavin: Adversaries or mortgaged to deep-pocketed external actors whose interests do not always align with ours. To pursue this vision, the united states needs to prioritize conflict resolution and prevention.
▶ 0:42:58Ms. Gavin: If these seem expensive, I think that we've seen through this exercise with the houthis in mn that it is more expensive to actually have to turn to military action to protect our interests. The united states should avoid an overreliance on personal relationships with any specific regional leaders.
▶ 0:43:21Ms. Gavin: Of course, the united states cannot simply impose its will on other states, but there can be no delegating responsibility for pursuing U.S. interests to any partner, not in east africa and not in the gulf. I'm a lake of the united states needs to develop and pursue a red sea regional strategy not all a cart deals that transcends our own bureaucratic divisions that put africa in one basket and the middle east and another.
▶ 0:43:51Ms. Gavin: For several years, I have served with other former U.S. officials on the U.S. institute of peace's study group that has advocated for this more copperheads of approach to the region. A successful new security architecture would have to take all relative equities into account. I look forward to the question.
▶ 0:44:10Chair Risch: We will now go through a five-minute question round, five minutes each to each of the senators who wish to participate. I will start. I have to tell you that watching president ruto with the chinese, holding hands, talking about a new world order is stunning after all of the work and the effort that we have put in.
▶ 0:44:41Chair Risch: To see him talking about a new world order -- the new world order was constructed by the united states, democracies, capitalist countries, human rights-loving countries. The new new world order that these countries are talking about is being constructed by the autocracies, the outright communists, socialists, people who have no respect for human rights.
▶ 0:45:11Chair Risch: It is stunning to hear countries talk about wanting to join or promote that world order when the world order that was constructed after world war ii has served us so well. Certainly not perfectly, but then again the world is not a perfect place. But so much better than what you would see if the autocrats took over. It is discouraging to hear that.
▶ 0:45:36Chair Risch: Part of it, I think, is tied to the fact that when we do things in africa they seem to be individual-centric rather than country centric. We don't focus on institutions, we focus on individuals. I don't know why it seems more prevalent in this part of the world than others. If each of you could take a quick run at a very complex question.
▶ 0:46:03Mr. Meservey: Thank you you, chairman. I agree. President ruto's comments were discouraging. They are also not out of the ordinary for the types of comments that african leaders make, especially when they travel to beijing, unfortunately. This is a challenge for the united states. I would suggest that african leaders have not always early thought through the consequences of this different type of world order.
▶ 0:46:32Mr. Meservey: Especially smaller countries, smaller literary or economic powers. The type of world order that china, russia, and iran are advocating for would mean that they would be victimized in many ways. The grievances that african leaders often express are focused on a few key issues.
▶ 0:46:53Mr. Meservey: And then, I think that the larger powers, like china, russia, and iran have co-opted those issues into their broader agenda to confront the united states. The U.S. should make it clear to african leaders that while, of course, they are welcome to have normal relations with these countries, especially if you are a major non-nato ally there are responsibilities associated with that, and I think that the U.S.
▶ 0:47:20Mr. Meservey: Needs to be more aggressive in its messaging to african publics and leadership about the benefits that you laid out of the world order that the united states has underpinned for decades.
▶ 0:47:30Chair Risch: I appreciate that. I think that you hit on something that is probably deserving more thought and attention. That is the fact that this is the kind of thing that they are used to. They are used to it because they see it all over the continent and they don't have the cadre of people who study in the united states like most other continents. China has hundreds of thousands of students here. Europeans are notorious for having lots of people here.
▶ 0:48:01Chair Risch: They are exposed to I think a different kind of government. Ambassador, your thoughts.
▶ 0:48:05Ms. Gavin: Such an interesting last point. I couldn't agree more that bringing more african students to the U.S. would absolutely be in the U.S. interest. We have seen time and again how it can pay dividends down the line, but it is difficult for a lot of africans to do university and graduate students here right now.
▶ 0:48:27Chair Risch: A thing that strikes me is when we deal with leaders, as all of us do, it always amazes me how well -- how good their english is. You asked them why. They studied in the united states. People who are coming up through the other countries are sent by their parents or government to study here. The result is, they take home the view of how important human rights are, how important democracy is. Sorry to interrupt.
▶ 0:48:56Ms. Gavin: No, I agree completely. I do think there is an inflection point in many parts of the continent right now because you have very young populations who are now urbanizing and digitally connected. There is a lot more political volatility.
▶ 0:49:20Ms. Gavin: Part of what I think is happening is a demand-driven desire for an international order that takes african equities into account. This sort of awareness that the bretton woods institutions created before most african countries were independent. That is capitalized on by U.S. adversaries. To distort the message that the U.S. wishes to keep african populations in poverty.
▶ 0:49:48Ms. Gavin: That is more or less the thrust of it. There is also the fact that money talks. For a lot of these african leaders, they are dealing with tremendously constrained physical space. They have big debt burdens. The way that the U.S.
▶ 0:50:05Ms. Gavin: Provides assistance and ways that we can be held accountable to the american taxpayers, it is a little different dealing with the chinese or with some of these gulf actors who have been gaining influence. The last thing that I would say is, I could not agree more that it is important to keep an eye on the internal dynamics in these countries, and for the U.S.
▶ 0:50:33Ms. Gavin: To understand and have strong contacts and relationships with actors outside of government, because leadership changes are going to happen and these investments and 1:1 personal elite relationships will not serve our interests. They will have a sell by date and we will be left in the cold.
▶ 0:50:52Chair Risch: I appreciate the remark of the fact that money talks. We end up with that all over. It is hard to explain to people that there is a real difference between capitalism and socialism.when the government owns all of the money it is easy for them to spread it out in other countries as they deem appropriate. In capitalism, you need the profit motive and free market system to back you up. Senator shaheen?
▶ 0:51:18Sen. Shaheen: Thank you. You both mentioned messaging. Ms. gavin, you mentioned concerns that we're shutting down voice of america and other information ways that we can message into places like the horn of africa. Can you talk about what we lose when we do that? I will ask both of you this question.
▶ 0:51:48Sen. Shaheen: We had a hearing in this committee at the beginning of the year. One of the things that one of the witnesses told us is that the prc is spending over a billion dollars a year on misinformation and disinformation campaigns. Much of that is obviously going into africa.
▶ 0:52:08Sen. Shaheen: What is the impact of that, and what is our alternative if we shut down all of our organizations that allow us to correct inaccurate facts, correct the misinformation campaigns that we are seeing in russia -- we are seeing russia and other adversaries doing?
▶ 0:52:29Ms. Gavin: I think that it's incredibly important. It is not just the prc. You are absolutely right. They have made massive investments in media on the continent, including hiring local reporters who are then delivering state-approved messages and slants on the news. I think the U.S.
▶ 0:52:55Ms. Gavin: Has a role to play in supporting independent media in this part of the world, investigative journalism. This is how one has accountability and more connectivity between populations and their leadership. I think when we are absent it is incredibly easy to caricature the U.S.
▶ 0:53:25Ms. Gavin: As uninterested or worse having a malign interest in the region. I've been looking at african social media discussions pretty intently for several years as part of a book project. You know, the russians, they too have their own influence campaigns that are very popular. The messages are -- you can see why the messages would be appealing.
▶ 0:53:57Ms. Gavin: They are about respect for african lives and sovereignty. They are about addressing the frustration that african countries are rich in resources and yet people cannot find jobs. Having an absence of straight reporting and clear messaging about what the U.S. is trying to achieve, there is just a vacuum. There we are with adversaries quite busily filling it.
▶ 0:54:31Mr. Meservey: Thank you for that question. I would like to see american embassies be more proactive in this space. For donating their messaging -- or maybe, receiving messaging from washington. I'm not sure how it would look. There are moments in the geopolitical calendar where there are real opportunities for the U.S.
▶ 0:54:52Mr. Meservey: To put out a message that is positive about the united states, that there has traditionally been a reticence, or in some cases I would describe it as an embarrassment in some cases to take a really vigorous pro-american, unapologetic stance on the U.S.
▶ 0:55:17Mr. Meservey: Whereas, the russias, chinas, and irans of the world have no problem doing that sort of thing. They are not worried about injustices from the past that they might have been involved in. I think that is one area. Another area that always frustrated me was, we have these extraordinary programs that have saved african lives.
▶ 0:55:44Sen. Shaheen: Past tense.
▶ 0:55:46Mr. Meservey: I'm hopeful that there will be elements continuing, but I understand that that is an ongoing process. As far as I could tell, we got very little credit for that. That's not the only reason to do something, but because this program was funded by american taxpayers it should have rebounded to american taxpayer credit, but they were bad about reminding people about the
▶ 0:56:17Mr. Meservey: Extraordinary impacts that came from american public health interventions and tooting its own horn. I think that we need to move away from that reticence and be much more coordinated and even aggressive in touting the american model and demonstrating our track record.
▶ 0:56:33Sen. Shaheen: I certainly agree with that in terms of being very clear about what we are providing to help in countries. I think that the sad thing at this point is, we don't have those programs anymore because they are gone. They just got eliminated. I agree with you on the embassies. I think that our embassies ought to be very positive about the united states and what we offer to countries.
▶ 0:57:06Sen. Shaheen: Without an apparatus to get that messaging out it is going to be really hard to do that. Especially when we are up against over $1 billion from the prc in providing that kind of information. Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:57:19Chair Risch: Thank you, senator shaheen. I think probably the reason for not getting credit is that we didn't do this to get credit. We did this to actually make a difference and we made a difference. I think we will continue to do so as we go through these programs. I think that is a lesson for us that you ought to give yourself credit for doing good. We did the good and we did not take any credit for it.
▶ 0:57:52Chair Risch: >> a lot of attention has been given to the houthi attacks in the red sea and the impact on global shipping, but there is a deeper and more strategic critical problem developing with regard to the houthi's funding from iran and moving into somalia and establishing relationship ties with elsa -- with al-shabaab.this is something that I think is challenging for the united states.for the first trump administration
▶ 0:58:23Chair Risch: , the maximum pressure effort brought iran's foreign reserves down from $122.5 million to under $14 billion. I'm pleased to see that the trump administration is again putting maximum pressure on iran to cut off the flow of money to terrorist group like the houthis. Needs to happen to put pressure on them. We also need to get the snapback sanctions on iran as well.
▶ 0:58:48Chair Risch: The growing pipeline of drones coming missions, military expertise risks turning the horn of africa into an extension of iran's proxy network. If left unchecked, this could destabilize the region, the shipping lanes, emboldened the you islamic insurgents -- embolden the islamic insurgents. How urgent is this risk that the houthis are moving into somalia?
▶ 0:59:19Chair Risch: Is it a long-term problem? Can you talk about what you see right now and how urgent that is?
▶ 0:59:24Mr. Meservey: Thank you senator. As you laid out, it is a very real problem. The kenyans would say that it is may be their primary national security threat, the prospect of al-shabaab getting advanced drones from the houthis or getting more advanced capabilities.
▶ 0:59:46Mr. Meservey: There is a long history of al-shabaab receiving help from aqap, the al qaeda affiliate in yemen, so those routes are well-established. There are people constantly moving back and forth. It's highly possible that even though the houthis rac though the houthis rare a shia operation they can be quite ecumenical when they are focused on attacking the united states or other adversaries.
▶ 1:00:18Mr. Meservey: It is a very serious concern. I haven't seen, in the open source, any sort of definitive account of exactly what the exchanges look like. Certainly, if it starts to include things like drones or capabilities around ieds, that would be a massive problem within somalia and including neighboring states, like kenya and ethiopia and potentially
▶ 1:00:50Mr. Meservey: Even djibouti.
▶ 1:00:50Sen. Ricketts: What should U.S. congress due to make sure that the horn of africa doesn't become the next step in iran's proxy network against us?
▶ 1:00:58Mr. Meservey: He referenced the maximum pressure campaign. I think that congress should do all that it can to assist such a campaign and remind the administration that the problem extends far beyond iran and the middle east. It extends into places like africa. The houthi-al-shabaab links are not the only presence on the continent.
▶ 1:01:22Mr. Meservey: There is a history of has below receiving funding from west africa and across the continent -- from hezbollah receiving funding from west africa and across the continent. I referenced some of the increased iranian activity in my remarks. Africa should absolutely be part of the maximum pressure campaign, and I think that congress can help the administration do that.
▶ 1:01:43Sen. Ricketts: I'm running out of time. I will switch a little to talk about communist china and their influence on africa, which we already discussed a little. Communist china is establishing a training school in tanzania, essentially trading the people -- training the people interested in politics about authoritarianism and working against multiparty democracy. What should we as the U.S.
▶ 1:02:11Sen. Ricketts: Congress be doing to help push back on what communist china is doing in east africa with regard to how they are trying to undermine the democracies there ?
▶ 1:02:20Mr. Meservey: Yeah, yes, china has a whole of government approach to undermining democratic norms on the continent. They are very pragmatic. They will work with any type of government. They are quite explicitly pushing their own model. Saying that you can enjoy economic prosperity as well as centralized power and even authoritarian power.
▶ 1:02:51Mr. Meservey: Regarding the training school that you referenced, the ccp has long links to liberation movements in southern africa especially. There are constant trainings ongoing between ccp and liberation movements. In south africa the entire governing council has been trained in china. So, I think that the U.S. needs to try a variety of approaches.
▶ 1:03:22Mr. Meservey: One, it needs to unabashedly make the case for democracy, free markets, etc. I think that it should harken back to the history that the united states has of partnering with countries like japan and south korea, germany after world war ii, and demonstrate that with strong american partnership you can really achieve significant gains.
▶ 1:03:45Mr. Meservey: I think that it should heavily focus on supporting civil society organizations, which are often the best check on overweening government power, etc..
▶ 1:03:56Sen. Ricketts: Can I allow Ms. gavin to weigh in on the last question? You are so generous. Thank you. Don't repeat what Mr. meservey said but anything else you observed?
▶ 1:04:11Ms. Gavin: Yes. I think that this relationship between the ccp and the dominant ruling parties on the continent is actually, ultimately going to be a disadvantage for china. The sort of discourse about why these ruling parties should be in charge tends to link back to liberation. Most african societies skew very young.
▶ 1:04:39Ms. Gavin: These are populations that don't remember pre-liberation days and are wondering what their government has done for them lately. I think, continuing to hold -- it would be nice to restore some of the democracy and governance work that the U.S. did that help draw a clear line between party and state, which is also important for combating corruption.
▶ 1:05:06Ms. Gavin: Polling is at the top of african priority lists, so we can align ourselves with these populations that way.
▶ 1:05:14Sen. Coons: Thank you chairman risch and ranking member shaheen for this important for committee . Ambassador and Mr. meservey, thank you for your testimony. I hear more engagement, not less. More of what we have done that works and the abrupt and chaotic closure of a very wide range of our most effective tools for dealing with africa from the mcc to the program puts all of this at risk.
▶ 1:05:47Sen. Coons: Given your opening comments, I would love to work with you on clarifying the U.S.-kenya relationship. There foreign minister and national security advisor were here last week meeting with the president and folks at the white house, and I agree that some of the statements with the p.r.c. Are very concerning given the security relationship that we have with al-shabaab and somalia.
▶ 1:06:11Sen. Coons: He referenced how important it is that there are more students from africa coming to the united states. I have a solution. A 15-year-old program called the young african leaders initiative that has sent 20,000 vetted, promising african students to the united states hear the university of delaware is one of the 20 hosting universities, at a very modest cost, that is about to be shut down. Not a good idea.
▶ 1:06:40Sen. Coons: It brings promising, young african leaders to the united states for a summer to meet with businesses, entrepreneurs, civil society, convene in washington, and then go to 20 states across the country. One of the many things that I don't think that we should shut down.
▶ 1:06:55Sen. Coons: To the point that you made, ambassador gavin, the millennium challenge corporation, mcc, explicitly used corruption and reducing corruption is one of the key indicators for whether or not a country would get a long-term development partnership with united states. It is all but closed. Most of its staff has been laid off. Pep farm is all but closed. It has been trimmed dramatically from its scope.
▶ 1:07:26Sen. Coons: A 25-year-old program, long deserving of bipartisan support. I would be interesting in both of you briefly saying, what does it do to our reputation on a continent of 54 countries, a continent with enormous human potential and natural resources, a country that china and russia see as the continent of the 21st century?
▶ 1:07:50Sen. Coons: What does it do to our place across the continent if we abruptly shut down long-standing demonstrated the effective programs?
▶ 1:08:01Ms. Gavin: Thank you, senator. It's incredibly self-defeating, is my view. I don't understand why we are taking a bunch of tools in our foreign policy toolbox and tossing them into a dumpster.
▶ 1:08:16Sen. Coons: I think that the term is a woodchipper. >> chainsaw.
▶ 1:08:23Sen. Coons: It is tougher to reassemble things put through a wood chipper than things that have gone through a reasoned and considerable review.
▶ 1:08:31Ms. Gavin: Oh, sure.
▶ 1:08:34Sen. Coons: To have this body of congress work with the new administration to say, ok, trim this, reform this, shutter this, expand this. That is not what happened.
▶ 1:08:48Ms. Gavin: No, it is not. And not only have we let our credibility on fire, and you see particularly china making pay on this. The favorite phrase is reliable partner. China is a reliable partner. They won't abruptly pull out the rug from under you. I think that some of the knock-on effects, consider the tens of thousands of health workers in kenya who are out of work now.
▶ 1:09:18Ms. Gavin: These are educated, engaged citizens. The messaging that we want to do about the long relationship with kenya is at odds with their lived experience.
▶ 1:09:33Sen. Coons: I have less than a minute. I do agree that a bright spot is the hard work done under the previous administration continuing under the special advisor. There is a real chance of peace. I can't think of a more concentrated example of the p.r.c.-U.S. competition than the two adjacent bases in djibouti.
▶ 1:09:59Sen. Coons: I introduced with senator ricketts a bill to try to prioritize focusing on denying the p.r.c. More basing opportunities on the continent. What do you think that we ought to make a priority in doing that important work?
▶ 1:10:11Mr. Meservey: Thank you, senator. I'm pleased to hear about the bill and your attention to this problem. I would especially highlight the danger of an atlantic ocean base. We know reliably that china has been pursuing such a base for years. It is not hard to see how problematic that would be for security of the american homeland.
▶ 1:10:35Mr. Meservey: So, I think the -- I mentioned in my original remarks that commercial engagement should be at the heart of strategy. I think that we need to start giving african countries more of what they want and less of what they don't. That seems like an obvious proposition but frequently our strategy doesn't seem to be guided by that principle. The existential crisis that every african government faces is youth unemployment.
▶ 1:11:07Mr. Meservey: Our development assistance and humanitarian assistance, as useful as that is in some contexts, is not going to address those problems.
▶ 1:11:16Sen. Coons: The development finance corporation and mcc really focused on private sector partnerships that fueled growth from the bottom up. To the extent that we can focus our messaging, investments, and partnerships on combating corruption, being a secure and reliable partner, and helping create reliable high-growth jobs, this continent a 4 billion people by the end of the century is a place that we can win in competition with china.
▶ 1:11:45Sen. Coons: If we continue our retreat, we won't. Thank you.
▶ 1:11:52Sen. Cornyn: Thank you for being here. I think that we all agree that africa is an important place and that we are not doing everything that we should or might do in order to influence the direction of that continent.
▶ 1:12:09Sen. Cornyn: I do that exception to some of my colleagues' statements about the previous status quo ante with a lot of money being spent in disjointed, wasteful, unfocused ways by the federal government.
▶ 1:12:29Sen. Cornyn: Obviously, changing that is disruptive, and there are a lot of programs that have been particularly important in africa in terms of our soft power and saving lives and I continue to obviously support that. It seems like we lack a coherent strategy. I know that the administration is working on targeted projects.
▶ 1:12:59Sen. Cornyn: The drc on the critical minerals front and others. My visit to kenya, angola, the drc last august, I was struck by not only the magnitude of the challenge that how we seem to lack any particular strategy to deal with making it any different than it is now.
▶ 1:13:25Sen. Cornyn: Maybe both of you, take it in turn, what would a successful regional strategy in east africa look like for the united states? It doesn't have to all emanate from the white house. Congress can begin that conversation. What would that look like?
▶ 1:13:51Mr. Meservey: It is important to ensure any regional strategy is integrated into our broader continental strategy and then global strategy. As far as the region specifically, the U.S. needs to determine exactly what its interests are, what its goals are, and how it can get there. That seems obvious.
▶ 1:14:13Sen. Cornyn: That seems fundamental. One goal is to stop the russians and the chinese from essentially preempting us and pushing us out in terms of our influence.
▶ 1:14:29Mr. Meservey: I referenced the base in port sudan. We already have the chinese base in djibouti as we have discussed. I am a big believer in commercial engagement. I think the U.S. government and U.S. can help streamline the work of organizations like the dmc and xm bang, make them more fit for purpose. They are too slow and bureaucratic.
▶ 1:14:58Mr. Meservey: And make that -- this commercial engagement the centerpiece of the value proposition united states brings to these countries. I think it should determine which countries it can actually achieve things with. There are some governments on the continent that are so hostile and so, frankly, inept that it is very hard to determine how the U.S. could ever achieve much of anything with them.
▶ 1:15:32Mr. Meservey: Some specific areas, he could talk about critical minerals. The eac does have some. Critical minerals are a cliche but it is a reality.
▶ 1:15:43Sen. Cornyn: It is not just a cliche.
▶ 1:15:45Mr. Meservey: It is real. It will have to be part of the solution for the united states. The U.S. needs to figure out how to support his companies. It should work with the companies have allied countries because we are very few mining companies in this country. The australians have huge mining companies. We look forward to possibly is there.
▶ 1:16:07Mr. Meservey: They should work closely with other allied countries on financing arrangements and take a much more systematic and harmonized approach with allies to these regions to focus on the core interest of the united states, which would be security and some of these economic issues.
▶ 1:16:25Sen. Cornyn: Thank you. >> particularly for the horn, it is really important to integrate what we're are trying to accomplish in africa with the strategy that looks at the other side of the red sea. So this is broadly what we need to do is stop treating africa like an extra credit project in foreign policy and make a part of the core curriculum and integrate it into the way we think about achieving U.S. interests globally.
▶ 1:16:55Sen. Cornyn: And I think more engagement as senator coons said, a focus on peace and conflict prevention because the conflict in africa provide opportunities, particularly to russia and to various criminal networks, terrorists and otherwise, that this is not in our interest. Commercial deals, yes.
▶ 1:17:18Sen. Cornyn: But making sure deals don't just benefit a set of elites at the top but are deals that we can talk about benefiting both sides of the atlantic in a way that addresses some of these job creation issues.
▶ 1:17:34Sen. Cornyn: My time is up.
▶ 1:17:36Chair Risch: Thank you to the witnesses for your helpful testimony. I want to return to the chairman's opening comments where he introduced an article into the record and talked about the recent discussion of the kenyan president in china about this new world order. Let me read from an article I would like to introduce to the record. Can you call for new world order that reflect global south realities and this is from tbc digital come the kenyan broadcasting company, if I could introduce it into the record.
▶ 1:18:07Chair Risch: From april 23. Speaking during a public lecture at peking university in beijing president will -- present ruto emphasized the need of a new world order that takes cognizance of present realities. The president was in china for a state visit. China's welcoming the kenyan president per state visit. The ongoing trade terror force could signal the end of the old world order as it has existed since the end of world war ii.
▶ 1:18:38Chair Risch: And further regarding the relationship between kenya, china congress of the world, marked they are not just trade partners but co-architects have a new world order. His comets are putting the U.S. in the old world order that has not helped the global south. This is what he is asserting, whether or not it is true, how true it is. He is suggesting the trade wars might meet the destruction of the old world order.
▶ 1:19:07Chair Risch: In the creation of a new world order where china and kenya and other nations focus more attention on the global south of how do we get to a place where the president of kenya, where we had this long relationship just two weeks ago, is making those assertions in the middle of a state visit to china?
▶ 1:19:23Chair Risch: I do think comments that have been made by my colleagues, the recent apparent abandonment of pepfar, the defunding of usaid, ned, dfc, mcc, africom is not based in africa and is parentally under resourced, based in germany. Picking a fight with south africa. A pretty important nation.
▶ 1:19:51Chair Risch: And labeling them as committing genocide against africom and farmers, accepting africom refugees what we are shutting off other refugees from africa. Used to work with church world service. Church of world service work on refugees has been curtailed. The church I go to is heavily congolese refugee's who have been resettled. Their work has been curtailed.
▶ 1:20:22Chair Risch: We don't get the benefit of the doubt necessarily and people look at evidence and they interpret it as to what it means. And what they are interpreting, the evidence I have cited and other bits of evidence, the U.S., to put it charitably, uninterested and to put it in charitably, affirmatively disinterested.
▶ 1:20:43Chair Risch: And that leads a present my present ruto to make those kinds of comments, gleefully come almost hoping donald trump's chair for will destroy the world order the U.S. created in the aftermath of world war ii to the benefit not only of the united states but other nations all over. We have got to reverse this. We have to reverse it. I hear this all over latin america as I traveled there. We would rather deal with you than china.
▶ 1:21:12Chair Risch: I think in the americas, there is a closer cultural connection because of migration patterns and family ties. But they are in africa as well. We would rather deal with you than china. You've got to have something on the table. China does and they're not going anywhere. Yet, the conditions may be bad and there may be strings attached, but they have something on the table. What do you have on the table? The things we have on the table are being hollowed out.
▶ 1:21:39Chair Risch: We can wring our hands about that all we want in this committee, but if we keep bringing out the architecture of the law relationships with africa or the parts of the world, china has stuff on the table and they will continue -- I don't know so much about russia. China is going to have staying power. I wanted to ask you, ambassador, you are getting to it with senator cornyn, I thought it was intriguing in your comments, or opening comments about, hey, let's look at least africa in connection with yemen.
▶ 1:22:10Chair Risch: We divide sent, and africom, divide this committee africa. Talk about what a coordinated red sea strategy might look like.
▶ 1:22:23Ms. Gavin: It would require convening both the african side of the red sea and the powers there with these both actors who are clearly intervening to try and stakeout influence and territory and trying to tease out what exactly are the core security concerns that these actors are worried about and what is a more opportunistic
▶ 1:22:55Ms. Gavin: Approach. Ultimately, these two regions are going to need to build an institutional architecture. We can assist with that, but our own thinking about U.S. security in the red sea, the gulf of aden, we need to be thinking much more holistically, bringing the expertise from our different communities to bear. I do recommend U.S.
▶ 1:23:21Ms. Gavin: Aip's work on this.
▶ 1:23:32Chair Risch: There is nothing to yield back.
▶ 1:23:40Sen. Kaine: I will yield back next time.
▶ 1:23:41Chair Risch: Senator. >> I understand you are a pennsylvanian so it is good to have you here today. I want to start with a word on pepfar relief was created when I served during the bush administration. By some estimates come that program has saved 26 million lives in just over 20 years. My question to you is twofold. Number one, how does that program advance U.S.
▶ 1:24:10Chair Risch: National security interest? And second, some countries started to move to their own versions of that program. What is the path to self-reliance and self-sufficiency for that program?
▶ 1:24:32Mr. Meservey: Thank you. And greetings from your home state. I will take the last one first. One of the problems that we had with pepfar, even though it was tremendously successful and was that some host governments were not taking ownership that they needed to -- it was never supposed to be an open-ended program.
▶ 1:24:56Mr. Meservey: So I think that -- I hope elements of this are reconstituted. Public health interventions have been successful on their own merits. If it is reconstituted, I think there needs to be a very clear roadmap for receiving countries to take ownership and it needs to be thoughtful and reasonable of course but one of the dangers of long-running aid programs is eventually they just become an
▶ 1:25:28Mr. Meservey: Entitlement that countries just received as a matter of fact and don't take ownership for. That would be one thing. Regarding cash and then I think probably with some countries, you need to do an assessment of do they all need pepfar? Which ones really need it? Which ones are at greatest risk? I lived at zambia at the height of the hiv pandemic. It was a focus country for very good reason. We need to continue those types of assessments.
▶ 1:25:58Mr. Meservey: And then how does pepfar help national security interests? It does contribute to soft power. It is hard to quantify. I think we were not good enough about getting as much of soft power as we should have from pepfar but it is also undeniable it did help us in that respect. But also mass death in society is fundamentally destabilizing.
▶ 1:26:26Mr. Meservey: It prevented mass death in some cases and allow for much higher quality of life for millions of people even be on the lives it saved --.
▶ 1:26:38Sen. Mccormick: Thank you. Some who is a big support of the program, the initial vision was never that it was perpetual. It was a transition to self-sufficiency. Thank you for that. Ambassador, thank you for being here. We read and hear a lot about the belt and road initiative and growing influence of china and africa and expanding security assistance. What challenge do those activities pose to U.S. counterterrorism efforts?
▶ 1:27:07Sen. Mccormick: In particular, what would you suggest the united states be doing to ensure that an light of that investment or that we are evolving our counterterrorism efforts to be as effective as possible?
▶ 1:27:23Ms. Gavin: Thank you. I think the belt and investments , certainly, some of the digital else and rode investments raise questions, make it difficult for us to engage in intelligence cooperation with some of these partners because of concerns about chinese access. But some of the infrastructure investments, quite frankly, our benefit, too. We are driving on the same road.
▶ 1:27:54Ms. Gavin: That can help us get some things done. I want to flag china is not going to leave africa. Not ever. So learning how to compete effectively will require recognition that african governments are not going to reject all chinese investment and trade.
▶ 1:28:20Ms. Gavin: But on counterterrorism, it is about influence, trust become the kind of elation ships with security establishments that enable meaningful cooperation in any security space.
▶ 1:28:44Ms. Gavin: China is working very hard on establishing those kinds of relationships. Again, I think the U.S. potentially has an advantage if we can work more institutionally rather than personally because of turnover.
▶ 1:29:00Sen. Mccormick: Mr. chairman, I yelled as well.
▶ 1:29:04Chair Risch: I will take it. I have on this site in order of appearance. I know it seems like you were here but they were here before you left and came back. Under the rules, sorry about that, senator rosen.
▶ 1:29:20Sen. Rosen: . Thank you. I'm going to talk about somalia first. A lot of extremist problems. Over the past year, somalia emerged as a key player in the islamic state level financial and operational network. Facilitating the movement of money, foreign fighters, military trainers throughout africa and beyond.
▶ 1:29:55Sen. Rosen: Aggressive efforts to plan and conduct external operations or threat to U.S. citizens everywhere. U.S. forces have taken action to degrade isis similes capability but there is more that must be done. During the last trump administration, the president withdrew almost all of the U.S. troops from somalia. What would be the consequences of the administration doing that again now?
▶ 1:30:23Ms. Gavin: I think consequences would be incredibly dangerous. The situation has evolved even from that period of the first trump and we do have two different terrorist organizations that wish us harm and have a track record of being able to carry out attacks at some distance.
▶ 1:30:53Ms. Gavin: I am sympathetic to the argument that I know my colleague will make that it is very frustrating to have been continuing to try to build somali capacity to combat these threats themselves year after year after year only to have these efforts essentially undermined by poor governance in somalia. The question is, what is the alternative?
▶ 1:31:18Ms. Gavin: Being frustrated and sort of washing her hands of it does not address these very, very real threats.
▶ 1:31:26Sen. Rosen: Research has shown extremism searches during crises. Talking about not good governance and those things. So how are the islamic insurgents in somalia taking advantage of these issues to recruit and what does the administrations cuts to humanitarian aid compound this to what you just mentioning?
▶ 1:31:50Ms. Gavin: A test feed into the messaging about who the enemy is. But it also creates the resource scarcity that leads to desperation people seizing who might not be ideologically -- just looking to survive. You have to sift through these groups in somalia. Some of it is survival, some is sort of hard-core believers, some is simile nationalism.
▶ 1:32:20Ms. Gavin: -- somali nationalism. It certainly is not helping, it is hurting.
▶ 1:32:27Sen. Rosen: I want to stay on africa for a minute because, ambassador, this is a difficult period for everyone residing in east africa, the horn. I want to talk about women's role. We know it is particularly hard for women and for girls. The post-conflict reconstruction in ethiopia. You have thousands of women survivors of conflict related sexual violence struggling justice.
▶ 1:32:56Sen. Rosen: Across the region, women continue to battle with forced marriages, lack of social protections and murder just for being a woman. They struggle to break through economically, politically, and any social norms to gain equality. Ambassador, could you talk about how the U.S. has supported women's and girls advancements in east africa and the horn? And really the importance of doing so? Again, the impact of U.S.
▶ 1:33:25Sen. Rosen: Terminating the these kinds of programs on the region and success of the region. I think women support families. It is critical to family structure and stability as I was, right?
▶ 1:33:35Ms. Gavin: Of course it is essential. In many african societies women are the backbone of what creates peace and stability. You are right about the really jaw-dropping and appalling level of sexual violence we are seeing associated with the conflicts in the horn.
▶ 1:34:01Ms. Gavin: This happened in itgray during a crisis and it is happening in other areas right now. And of course sudan's plight is heartbreaking. When the U.S. is not there to try and provide assistance -- medical assistance and support and critically a voice speaking out about some international norms I think we all are invested.
▶ 1:34:33Sen. Rosen: Violence against women.
▶ 1:34:34Ms. Gavin: We are missing a chance to strengthen the societies we would like to have as peaceful partners going forward.
▶ 1:34:43Sen. Rosen: I will follow the norm and yield back.
▶ 1:34:49Chair Risch: I don't mean this disrespectfully but your criticism about pulling troops out of that area, I think it is important for the record to note when you have troops there, the question always is, who are you going to train and who are you going to fight with? When you have somalia put on somali land, undisputed borders, incredibly entangled tribal issues, who do you stand with?
▶ 1:35:20Chair Risch: Obviously, we fight isis and houthis when we can identify them, ok, but the rest of the staff, this is really a tough question. I appreciate the criticism but there is more to this than just hear the good guys in here are the bad guys. Finding the good guys is really difficult. Anyway, thank you for your thoughts. With that, senator van hollen.
▶ 1:35:44Sen. Van Hollen: Thank you stub thank you for your testimony. I'm going to pick up in sudan. We are now in the third year of a brutal civil war in sudan. When secretary rubio was here for his confirmation hearing, he testified that helping resolve that conflict would be a top priority of the administration. Clearly, that has not happened. In fact, the cuts to U.S.
▶ 1:36:14Sen. Van Hollen: Humanitarian assistance have made a desperate situation in sudan even worse. Master gavin, you wrote a piece for the foreign relations in february entitled "the abandonment of sudan." obviously, we need to look for ways to put pressure on some of the outside parties. I have proposed actually stopping U.S. military assistance to the uae so long as it continues to support their murderous rss. -- rsf.
▶ 1:36:45Sen. Van Hollen: I think I heard you say that the rsf could not continue its operations without outside help. If I could start with you, ambassador. What should we do and should we be using more of our leverage to put pressure on some of the outside parties that are fueling this murderous conflict, including the uae support for the rsf?
▶ 1:37:07Ms. Gavin: I absolutely think we should be using more of our leverage with the uae. Having real conversations. I think emirate officials are aware the rsf is never going to govern all of sudan. They have concerns about what the other side of the coin looks like. And so do we, frankly, or we should.
▶ 1:37:32Ms. Gavin: What we have called the saf for a long time is a coalition of entities and actors, some of which are highly problematic in terms of U.S. interests. I don't think that is likely hold together in a scenario where there could be a military solution. The reality is, there is no military solution.
▶ 1:37:57Ms. Gavin: What needs to happen is a set of talks that involve sudanese actors pressure on these external actors who continue to arm and fuel both antagonist but most importantly really a greater effort to elevate the civilian voices in sudan who have never given up. They continue to be in many parts of the country the only source of medical care, a food -- which is quite scarce.
▶ 1:38:28Ms. Gavin: And they have been organizing to try to come up with some clear principles they would like all parties to agree to. That needs to be raised up and given validation and credibility from the U.S.
▶ 1:38:45Sen. Van Hollen: I am going to turn briefly to ethiopia and eritrea. We all know ethiopia stands at a critical juncture as a grapples with the aftermath of the conflict in tigray. As we speak, we see eritrea, the leader called up troops -- at least their reports to that effect.
▶ 1:39:13Sen. Van Hollen: I guess my question for each of you is, if you are in charge right now of U.S. policy, what practical steps would you take today to try to address the bubbling almost boiling situation with respect to ethiopia and eritrea?
▶ 1:39:32Mr. Meservey: Thank you. I think there are a few key issues here. One is that the eritreans are still inside ethiopian territory in western tigray in violation of the agreement which is what ended the tigray war ostensibly. There has to be a process for having them leave.
▶ 1:40:03Mr. Meservey: But of course their presence is also tied into the internal divisions where they claim the area, tigrayans also claim it. It is a major flashpoint. Right now what the U.S. could do and I believe what he did do along with other partner countries was to unequivocally demonstrate to both sides that we are watching and a conflict would be unacceptable.
▶ 1:40:30Mr. Meservey: And then it should offer its good offices for either convening discussions or trying to mediate around some of these issues. But they are intensely difficult. I am not, frankly, terribly positive about the immediate prospects for resolving.
▶ 1:40:50Ms. Gavin: I would quickly agree and add that mobilizing more of the au member states to insist on actual implementation of the pretoria agreement would be a helpful focal point. This is something everybody has already agreed to but it has not been fully implemented. It is in this strange limbo.
▶ 1:41:18Ms. Gavin: And so I think that getting that getting the kind of regional engagement would be helpful.
▶ 1:41:23Chair Risch: Senator cruz.
▶ 1:41:27Sen. Cruz: Thank you. As we have been discussing, I believe the chinese communist party presents the most significant long-term strategic threat to the united states. I also believe that china is a global threat that has to be confronted globally, including in africa. With a vast range of interest in africa and a complicated security architecture.
▶ 1:41:48Sen. Cruz: Our interests are counterterrorism, trade, critical mineral supply lines, global bio security, permitting illegal immigration, blocking illicit finance of hostile actors, and even, importantly, space development.
▶ 1:42:04Sen. Cruz: Across africa, again and again, the chinese have exploited local political, economic, sometimes even cultural conditions to undermine american national security interests are yet sometimes they do it by securing bilateral and multilateral agreements that block american goals, other times they do it by creating instability. But they are actively doing it. Talk a little bit about the specific tactics that china is using in east africa and the horn and what are the specific conditions they are exploiting?
▶ 1:42:35Mr. Meservey: Thank you for the question. China, first of all, has a long-standing strategy for the continent. That is been a confident -- topic of this conversation. They are highly disciplined about implementing it. That is sort of the foundation of what they are doing. As far specific tactics, they like to engage at a very senior level, the highest possible senior level.
▶ 1:43:05Mr. Meservey: They do that in a variety of ways. Some of it is as open as bribery, but a lot of it is helping leaders, for instance, with infrastructure projects that helps them politically in the domestic space. Or just expressing solidarity. That rhetoric is important. But even then diplomatic exchanges, they engage, as I said come at a high level.
▶ 1:43:36Mr. Meservey: I referenced over 100 visits from senior chinese officials to the area. They engage at a much higher tempo and much more senior level than U.S. diplomats do. Those are some of the specific tactics that they use. But they are not unique to east africa. They use them across the continent to great effect. Easy money loans, very important to their strategy. Investment, trade agreements.
▶ 1:44:03Mr. Meservey: We are seeing more and free trade agreements where the so-called green lanes where preferential access to the chinese market for agricultural goods. It is genuinely a wide array of tactics that are grounded in a long-term strategy.
▶ 1:44:19Sen. Cruz: How is china's involvement impacted the ongoing conflicts in the region?
▶ 1:44:23Mr. Meservey: Yeah, so I think usually china actually prefers stability because that facilitates what they're trying to do in other areas. A generally try to stay out of these types of things. We have seen some sort of I would argue weak diplomatic efforts from the chinese. They have a special envoy for the region who occasionally goes and talks to the various leaders, but I don't think anything substantive comes of it.
▶ 1:44:55Mr. Meservey: And they do contribute to peacekeeping operations, but that is much more -- I would argue -- about them building both diplomatic but also capabilities for an expense of the troops in these types of environments where often put. I think they are not nearly as helpful as they could be. I think with a actively are negative are the chinese weapons that flow through the area.
▶ 1:45:25Mr. Meservey: Back in the original sudan civil war, they armed the omar al-bashir regime which was genociding dafurians. Chinese weapons continue to flood the area. We are seeing chinese bombs and other things probably be exported from you a you show up in sudan.
▶ 1:45:50Sen. Cruz: Many of the agreements china has been locking in our exquisitely military agreements. Since 2017, china has operated a military base in djibouti, ccp beijing is actively working to deepen ties across the region to secure greater access to the red sea and key maritime rounds. Describe the nature of china's specifically military cooperation.
▶ 1:46:13Mr. Meservey: You referenced the flagship, which is the djibouti base. We have seen a very real uptick in military trainings. I think two or three years ago, they inaugurated -- the chinese inaugurated an annual meeting for african defense chiefs create they convey in beijing. That has been ongoing I believe for three years if I remember correctly.
▶ 1:46:41Mr. Meservey: I also referenced in my written testimony the fact that pla navy vessels participate in these antipiracy tasks force in the gulf of aden. They will go all around the continent, both on the indian ocean but also the atlantic ocean side. That is clearly an effort to build so they can project power in the south china sea probably for eventual invasion of taiwan.
▶ 1:47:12Mr. Meservey: Again, the weapons -- weapons trainings, deployment, and I referenced the peacekeeping operations. I was a those of the primary elements.
▶ 1:47:19Chair Risch: Senator booker.
▶ 1:47:23Sen. Booker: Thank you. I just want to start by adding two I think some of the sentiments expressed that we have a colossal problem right now by failing to understand if you look at all of humanity, the future is in so many ways africa. We have one out of every four people on the planet earth and by 2050, on the continent, one out of every three working age people.
▶ 1:47:51Sen. Booker: The continent is indispensable when it comes to the future strength, opportunities, prosperity, health of americans. It is stunning to me that we are lacking a vision for engagement with the continent and are making such colossal mistakes.
▶ 1:48:10Sen. Booker: What the trump administration is doing right now is not only unacceptable, but it is a series of self-inflicted wounds when we cut the kind of programs that have created economic stability and opportunity for american companies and have guided public health and our response to public health because the public health crisis anywhere now is a threat to public health everywhere.
▶ 1:48:30Sen. Booker: We are stopping, especially as we see that tanzania and uganda elections and instabilities, cutting back our resources helping democratic stability at a time that democracies are under retreat all across the globe and the democratic freedoms and ideals that we preach are being undermined by forces that don't share our values.
▶ 1:48:53Sen. Booker: We are in a state of crisis right now when it comes to our relations with the continent, and other competitors of ours from iranians to russians to chinese to people that don't always align with us, emirates and others, are flooding the zone where we are retreating in a stunning way.
▶ 1:49:13Sen. Booker: We are seeing our retreat on public health, economic empowerment, a national security and creating more volatile and dangerous environment where there are forces that want to see the destruction of america. And there's no place to me this is more obvious than just this retreat we have even where our embassies and consulates this administration is slated to close.
▶ 1:49:40Sen. Booker: China has embassies in every single country and we now see a list that consulates and embassies all over the world, six in continent of africa are being shut down. When I travel to africa, the power of our presence there, our ability to combat misinformation and propaganda or our ability to create deep partnerships and connections -- we are truly pursuing a set of policies that are going to undermine america's safety and security and economic
▶ 1:50:11Sen. Booker: Strength in the future and make us be more targeted by forces from the red sea all the way to terrorist attacks here at home based upon the instability and folks were focusing and targeting and trying to undermine america. And so, again, I am stunned. I have already been upset in pest ministrations with the failure to prioritize. What is happening right now is overly stunning.
▶ 1:50:37Sen. Booker: Generations of americans will pay a price for it unless we find a way in a bipartisan way to focus and do more. In my scares remaining time, I want to focus on sudan. You call it, ambassador, rightfully the worst humanitarian crisis on the globe .
▶ 1:50:57Sen. Booker: If you want to talk about ethnic cleansing is administration rolls out the red carpet for some south africans recently, the horrors of what is going on there, the instability it is causing south, chad, the threat to the war in general -- it cannot be overstated.
▶ 1:51:18Sen. Booker: In the time you have before me, can you please help us as a committee understand that the failure of american focus -- there's a bipartisan letter just put forward to get a special envoy.
▶ 1:51:36Sen. Booker: Just the failure of americans to focus on this is not only contributing to greater humanitarian crises, but creating a level of instability in crisis that advantages forces that we are posting like the chinese and the russians.
▶ 1:51:55Ms. Gavin: You are absolutely right. Russia thrives in environments of chaos where they can cut a deal to do regime security, whether the regime is legitimate or not. And get access to resources. Sudan's problem is bigger than sudan.
▶ 1:52:18Ms. Gavin: My concern is that we are going to end up with this belt of testa sizing instability all the way -- a testa sizing across the continent. You have the crisis in the suhau suhail. Things are not looking great in central africa although I am hopeful that some advances will bear fruit. And then you have what is happening in the horn. As these conflicts spill over, they relate to each other.
▶ 1:52:48Ms. Gavin: It gets harder and harder to disentangle the threads. It is hard enough to make peace with two or three parties. Trying to do it was 16 is a very, very tall order. I agree with you. I think a de facto partition does not mean stability. These are fractious armed entities on either side, and I think it is important always to remember that osama bin laden used operate from sudan.
▶ 1:53:20Ms. Gavin: The islamist forces that are a part of that port sudan coalition have a long history of pushing america harm.
▶ 1:53:33Sen. Booker: There is a staggering moral failure here. In our ability to exercise american influence, greater american influence on this crisis. But what is worse than this is I fear that if we don't -- are not successful in addressing the abject lack of attention, focus, and energy from a diplomatic perspective, this crisis will grow worse and have implications on their own national security as our witness indicated.
▶ 1:54:02Sen. Booker: I am hoping we as a committee can take even more actions to try to get the tropic administration to make it a higher priority to solving this crisis and showing some true american leadership.
▶ 1:54:10Chair Risch: Senator, my partner here and I made the decision to hold this hearing for the reasons you have indicated. There are a series of problems here. As you indicated, has been suggested, everything has to be prioritized. The difficulty is as always it is a question of money. The debt is unsustainable.
▶ 1:54:41Chair Risch: Where you put the money? There are things here that absolutely cry out for attention. And the other fact I think that has been underscore here again and again is africa is such a galloping influence on the planet that it really does need our attention, particularly when it is getting such close attention by people who have values that are very different than ours. Democracy and respect for human life.
▶ 1:55:10Sen. Booker: The one thing I would request and I feel the trump administration would listen to you more than me, this does not cost any money to simply nominate ambassadors to key countries in africa. Scarce lack of even them coming forward with putting up leaders as we see them filling posts from european nations and others but in critical areas we are not even getting --.
▶ 1:55:33Chair Risch: Fairpoint. We get that. But this comes back to their only so many hours in the day as you know. Moving ambassadors is very cumbersome job that the founding fathers handed us. Thank you for your thoughts. Senator shaheen.
▶ 1:55:55Sen. Shaheen: I would like to make two points. One is apropos the earlier conversation about pepfar and it not being an entitlement. I would like to point out multiple african countries have in fact increased their to help pay for pepfar and to address hiv/aids so I would hope you will continue to help work in partnership with them on that issue.
▶ 1:56:23Sen. Shaheen: The other thing I would point out with respect to sudan, one of the things that we know from the data is that when women are at the table of negotiations, those negotiations are more likely to last longer term and more likely to be successful.
▶ 1:56:45Sen. Shaheen: It is a mistake we made in afghanistan will be totally left women out of those negotiations for conflict and it is the reason why I have been so supportive of the women peace and security legislation that we passed, that president trump signed in his first term, and now has decided to get rid of because he thinks it is a dei program. It is not a dei program.
▶ 1:57:11Sen. Shaheen: It is a program that recognizes that women make up half of the world and they need to be part of negotiations. And part of ongoing efforts that we make and that we get a benefit from doing that. I just went to put that on the record, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:57:26Chair Risch: Thank you very much. That will conclude the hearing. I want to sincerely thank both of you for what I think has been an eye-opening experience for people who really aren't exposed to this as we are every day on this committee and the lane you work in. Reformation of the members, the record will remain open until the business tomorrow.
▶ 1:57:51Chair Risch: We asked the witnesses if they do get such a question, that they respond as promptly as possible in your response be included in the record. I will enter in the record this feat fee speeches of Dr. william ruto in beijing, china. With that and thanks to the committee, the hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap.org]