▶ 0:16:26The senate committee on health, education, labor, and pensions will please come to order. Congress has not updated labor law for nearly 100 years but clearly the workforce has changed. We need new labor laws, when need new labor laws that work for unions, businesses, making the united states competitive in the 21st century economy. But at hearing decades-old status quo does a disservice to represent families and retreat into ideological corners payment is not the answer pyramid a class is being squeezed.
▶ 0:16:57They need our help. We must listen to everyone as we attempt to move forward. The committee will be hearing from Mr. kaplan who was recently chair of the national labor relations board and served in multiple roles in government designing and implement the labor policy. Ms. greszler is a respected economist and long-time advocate for reform. Mr. o'brien is president of the teachers union for the day more than one million workers nationwide many of whom I suspect voted for president trump. Mr.
▶ 0:17:26O'brien has shown he is willing to put aside traditional partisan labor politics to engage in a productive dialogue even becoming friends with markwayne mullin, which is kind of a testament to them both. This is why president trump invited Mr.
▶ 0:17:43O'brien to speak at the republican national convention to reach working-class americans who otherwise would never consider voting for president trump, but because of the president's leadership we have a coalition of workers, businesses, and unions united in the goal of making the country a better place. The witnesses will not agree with each other on everything but you have to start talking to build consensus. I compare sometimes our political debate to a couple that needs therapy. The therapist will tell you first you need to communicate.
▶ 0:18:13This is about communicating to build trust. Today's discussion will inform us as policymakers to break through the noise and advance important well-designed reforms. Members of this committee including senators holly, scott, paul, marshall have ideas and put forward bills to address challenges in the workplace. Democratic colleagues have proposed legislation as well. I look forward to discussing everyone's ideas in depth. It is important as we start the conversation.
▶ 0:18:42When we say pro-worker, it doesn't mean being prounion or pro-employer. It means empowering workers to exercise the constitutional freedom of association protecting workers rights when violated and supporting the middle-class in their pursuit to achieve the american dreaming for their families. I want to help president trump continue to deliver on his pro worker, profamily record.
▶ 0:19:06Whether you are a union machinist in michigan, an independent gator farm in louisiana, we want to help you compete in 21st century. This hearing is an important step in achieving this goal. With that, senator sanders.
▶ 0:19:19Sen. Sanders: Thank you, Mr. chairman, for calling this important hearing. The issues that I hope we can focus on is why I come in the richest country in the history of the world, 60% of our people are living paycheck-to-paycheck. Why today, Mr. chairman, we have more income wealth inequality that we have ever had in the history of this country.
▶ 0:19:45Sen. Sanders: While, roughly speaking, over the last 50 years, wages for american workers have been stagnant. When I was a kid, one worker in a family, grew up in a working-class family. My dad never made any money but he was able to pay the bills. Now all over the country if you are in the working class, very unusual if we don't have both mom and dad working, worried about childcare and everything else. The people on top are doing phenomenally well.
▶ 0:20:14Sen. Sanders: More wealth and power than ever before. Working-class families struggling. How did that happen? To my mind, one of the reasons is we have seen an attack on the working-class the likes of which we have never seen before. I happen to believe that if the middle class is going to grow in this country, we need a strong union movement. I am proud that I had perhaps the strongest record supporting unions as any member of the united states congress.
▶ 0:20:46Sen. Sanders: But today, jennifer ann abruzzo, former attorney for the nlrb, if you form a union out there and your company says sorry, we don't recognize it, there is no nlrb to go to because the president has fired people, neutered the nlrb.
▶ 0:21:09Sen. Sanders: Right now -- it is not impossible for workers to gather independently, but for the average worker it's very hard. You have some of the richest people in this country, elon musk, jeff bezos who are trying to declare the nlrb unconstitutional. Which gives workers very little support in their effort to form unions.
▶ 0:21:36Sen. Sanders: One of the things I want to focus on is how we make it easier for workers to form a union all over the world. If you have 50% or more of workers in a shop, factory, and they vote to form a union, they get a union. That is not the case in this country. You have to go through all sorts of groups. Mr. cochran and the uaw will be talking about those struggles. Why are we the only major nation on earth not to guarantee paid family and medical leave?
▶ 0:22:06Sen. Sanders: What happens when a kid gets sick at home? The worker has to make a choice, do I lose my job or take care of my kid? Why are we the only major country? The chairman talks about the president pro worker record. When you double health care premiums and a broken system with 20 million workers, that is not being pro worker. You throw 15 million low income people off of the health care roles, that is not pro worker.
▶ 0:22:34Sen. Sanders: When you take away union rights for half a million workers, that is not being pro worker. There is a lot to discuss, Mr. chairman. Thank you for calling this hearing.
▶ 0:22:43Chair Cassidy: We will introduce our witnesses. I will turn to senator hawley to introduce Mr. o'brien.
▶ 0:22:53Sen. Hawley: Thank you. It's a pleasure to introduce my friend sean o'brien as a witness this morning. He is the general president of the international brotherhood of teamsters. Many of you have heard sean testify before this committee in the past but I thought I might say a word or two more about the man more than perhaps his job title conveys. Sean is a fourth-generation teamster. His great grandfather emigrated from ireland, landed in boston, and made deliveries in a horse-drawn wagon.
▶ 0:23:22Sen. Hawley: Sean's family didn't pass the wagon down through the generations but they certainly preserve their great-grandfather's spirit. Sean's father was also a lifelong team spirit, as were his brothers. When he turned 18, sean joined local 25 as a heavy equipment driver, and has kept on working ever since for himself and his fellow working men and women. His dedication I think is undeniable and so is the heart of the teamsters. Approximately 6000 teamster locomotive engineers ratified a new five-year contract with union pacific.
▶ 0:23:54Sen. Hawley: Last month, 160 teamster bus drivers, monitors, mechanics and michigan ratified their first union contract. I could go on all day with examples. The point is, sean o'brien cares about his workers, their lives, their well-being, and he is here to help us understand how we can better serve the american people. I hope it is obvious to everyone on this committee that we have work to do when it comes to the nation's labor market.
▶ 0:24:18Sen. Hawley: Since the covid-19 pandemic, corporate profits are up, employee wages are stagnant, and american workers don't just compete anymore with foreign labor which is bad enough, now they have to contend with a coming for their jobs. We know we have to do more than what we are doing now for our workers and we had to do more to update our labor laws which have not seen significant reform in over 40 years. I am glad sean o'brien is here today to help us talk about this important effort and what we can do to get a revival of the american worker. Thank you for being here, Mr.
▶ 0:24:49Sen. Hawley: O'brien.
▶ 0:24:51Mr. O'Brien: We are already working together. My microphone was not on. Good morning, chairman cassidy, ranking member sanders, members of the committee, my name is sean o'brien. I have the honor to serve as general president of the international brotherhood of teamsters. Thank you for the opportunity to join you today. This is the third time out of your before this committee to talk about our nation's weak, unenforceable labor laws.
▶ 0:25:19Mr. O'Brien: Under both democratic and republican committee chairs, we have identified problems and have the same discussions but have seen zero solutions enacted by congress. I'm hopeful that we can spend the next few hours working together to identify areas of bipartisan agreement on the problems facing american workers and on the policy solutions that have a path toward becoming law. I'm encouraged I've been invited here as a guest of the republican majority. This is a positive change.
▶ 0:25:48Mr. O'Brien: Thank you again to chair cassidy for your open mind. I have enjoyed and valued our recent conversations. For as long as I've been a teamster, neither party has spearheaded an effort to reach bipartisan agreement on labor reform. The democrats have played a political football with massive labor reform bills, republicans have largely reintroduced business friendly bills that make it harder to form unions. I don't like to waste time.
▶ 0:26:15Mr. O'Brien: I was elected to get things done for rank-and-file teamsters, to further solutions and not dwell on problems over the past. Everyone in this room was similarly elected to produce for their own constituents. When I took office, I directed teamster unions's legislative department to confront their own partisan bias. As a result, our union has found new allies on both sides of the aisle. Senator hawley has been essential in that effort.
▶ 0:26:44Mr. O'Brien: Senator hawley's pro worker framework includes pragmatic solutions to problems workers face every day when they form their union. We appreciate that the hawley framework is being introduced as a series of individual bipartisan bills and not as one massive reform package. Thank you. There is a realignment around labor taking place within the republican party.
▶ 0:27:09Mr. O'Brien: The teamsters union wants to encourage that movement by offering multiple paths to support our members and not a single legislative litmus test. After workers go to form their union from many employers delay the negotiation of initial collective bargaining agreement. Nearly half of new units failed to secure a contract within a year of winning an election. After two years, a third are without a contract.
▶ 0:27:32Mr. O'Brien: Senator hawley, senator moreno, senator booker, senator peters have introduced a bipartisan bill called the faster labor contracts act. This bill ensures a first contract can be reached in months, not years. The faster labor contracts act doesn't favor any one party over the other. It simply ensure that bargaining results in a contract rather than a stalemate. This is the first time in recent memory that we have labor reform legislation that is both bipartisan and bicameral.
▶ 0:28:05Mr. O'Brien: This shows a recognition that labor law must work better for the american worker and that both parties have a role to play in this effort. Core well health is michigan's largest state health system. At core well, 10,000 nurses organized with the teamsters union last year, 10,000. It took the hospital system seven months to come to the table and start to negotiate.
▶ 0:28:29Mr. O'Brien: During the few bargaining sessions that I've attended since, core well management have slow walked every issue and avoided speaking about the concerns that drove the nurses to become teamsters in the first place. Breakthrough beverage is another example, one of the largest beverage wholesalers in north america. The company reported over 8.5 billion in annual sales, and september 2024, breakthrough drivers in florida joined the teamsters union. 13 months later, they are still without their first contract.
▶ 0:29:00Mr. O'Brien: At amazon, jfk eight warehouse on staten island, workers voted to unionize in april 2022. More than three years later, still no contract. The reason the faster labor contracts act can be successful is because of how simple it is. This is a rare example of where legislatures of all stripes put forth easily digestible reforms that can immediately improve the lives of the constituents. For organized labor, the bill would resolve one of the biggest problems we encounter on the ground.
▶ 0:29:30Mr. O'Brien: Last week, the teamsters held a special event celebrating the living sea of -- a legacy of organized labor. It was written in the wake of an industrial revolution. It reminds us that humans are not instruments meant to be ground down and discarded. The economy must exist to serve humanity, not the reverse. The teamsters, our members are empowered to build families, receiving wages and benefits needed to support their children and partners.
▶ 0:29:59Mr. O'Brien: As a teamster, you have a stake in sustaining a strong community. You know what it means to buy a home, invest in the future, to pay taxes and dues, and deliver the dignity of knowing you can provide for your loved ones. A dream escape so many americans today. The faster labor contracts act is about restoring that reality. Thank you for your kind attention today. I look forward to answering your questions.
▶ 0:30:22Chair Cassidy: Next we turn to rachel greszler, a research fellow in public finance at the heritage foundation. Before joining heritage, she was a senior economist and staff with a joint economic committee of the congress. She completed her graduate studies in economics and public policy at georgetown and her undergraduate studies at the university of mary washington. She currently serves as the board of visitors.
▶ 0:30:48Ms. Greszler: Chairman cassidy, ranking member sanders, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. Since its inception, america has transformed from an agrarian to industrial to a service is driven economy with technology continually making us more productive in our work easier. Today's workers are more mobile, our jobs are more diverse, and our workplaces are more agile.
▶ 0:31:17Ms. Greszler: The last decade has included massive expansions in things like remote work, flexible schedules and benefits like paid family leave. Online work platforms like up work and instacart have created new income opportunities and expanded the workforce. But one thing has not changed, and that is workers desire for a voice in their personal rights in the workplace.
▶ 0:31:40Ms. Greszler: Yet, most of america's labor laws are 75 years old and were enacted in a male union and manufacturing dominated labor market that does not reflect the realities of today's expanded innovation and merit driven workforce. When considering current labor issues, I want to acknowledge some potential unintended consequences of government dictates and make the case for a worker modernization of labor laws.
▶ 0:32:08Ms. Greszler: First, it's understandable that after voting in a union, workers want quick action. But the faster labor contract act's arbitrary and unrealistic deadlines and its eating of authority over private contracts to unelected government bureaucrats could hurt workers. For example, the act could strip workers of the right to vote on contracts, reduce unions clout in negotiations, limit the effectiveness of workers right to strike, and potentially even lead to slower contracts.
▶ 0:32:40Ms. Greszler: Moreover, the act could face legal challenges because mutual assent is an essential element of a legally enforceable contract. It also does not go unnoticed that this hearing is taking place amidst a government shut down because two parties could not come to an agreement within a designated time period. That is unfortunate but it does not mean that an unelected bureaucrat should be given power over the people's elected representatives.
▶ 0:33:08Ms. Greszler: Next, the warehouse worker protection act seeks to address legitimate safety and wellness concerns insert large warehouses. It does this by regulating some and forbidding other quotas, resurrecting a field and excessively burden economic standard, and implementing a new office within the department of labor. Despite its intent to help workers, this top dictate could end up hurting them. For example, by expediting the pace of automation and eliminating jobs.
▶ 0:33:37Ms. Greszler: After all, robots come with built-in production quotas, they don't require breaks or ergonomic accommodations, and they cannot sue their employer. The warehouse act may also cause discrimination in hiring against individuals who might require more accommodations. Most dangerous is the slippery slope that this would take toward central planning, but the government dictating private companies operations and creating a less efficient economy.
▶ 0:34:05Ms. Greszler: Yes, warehouse workers 4.3% injury rate is higher than the average, but it is lower than many others, including 5.2% in public administration, six percent in hospitals, 8.5% in nursing homes, and 10.9% in performing arts. Passing similar laws for these and other industries would put the U.S. on the road to serfdom.
▶ 0:34:30Ms. Greszler: Instead, workers need laws that put them in control starting with the national right to work act that would allow all workers to choose whether or not to join a union. Next is the employee rights act, a comprehensive pro-worker modernization package that preserve people's rights to work independently, protects pathways to entrepreneurship that are free from corporate control, it ensures secret ballot elections and limits voting to U.S.
▶ 0:34:57Ms. Greszler: Citizens and legally authorized workers, it gives workers the freedom of association, it prevents dei discrimination in union contracts, and requires unions to get permission from their work before using their dues for politics. In addition, a package of bills recently introduced in this help committee would unlock workplace benefits for independent workers and the marker enfranchisement act would create more democratic workplaces. America's workforce is dynamic and resilient and has the potential to become even more so.
▶ 0:35:28Ms. Greszler: Workers core priorities. Job security, upward mobility, personal freedom. Hey have remained steadfast even as technology, demographics, and workplace structures continue to evolve. When addressing concerns, good intentions don't guarantee good outcomes and history shows that when the government replaces collaboration with compulsion, both workers and employers lose.
▶ 0:35:52Ms. Greszler: A better way forward is to modernize labor laws to preserve their freedom, dignity, and opportunity that make american work exceptional. Thank you.
▶ 0:36:01Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Next is Mr. marvin kaplan, principal in the law firm jackson lewis. Prior to joining jackson lewis, Mr. kaplan was chairman of the national labor relations board. Before his more than eight years -- the person who would my script is awkward today. Served as chief counsel of the occupational safety and help review commission.
▶ 0:36:30Chair Cassidy: The workforce policy council to the U.S. house committee on education in the workforce, oversight counsel to the U.S. house committee on oversight and government reform, special assistant in the U.S. department of labor office of labor management standards, associate with the law firm. Mr. cap and received his jd from washington university in st. Louis, bs from cornell.
▶ 0:36:52Mr. Kaplan: Thank, chairman cassidy, ranking member sanders, thank you for this opportunity to participate in the hearing. It's an opportunity -- it's an honor to appear before you. As was mentioned, I just finished my turn on the board. After issuing close to -- more than 900 decisions, I have a unique perspective I think on how the board functions and how it works and does not work.
▶ 0:37:18Mr. Kaplan: I am here today to discuss the first contract, the bargaining under the national labor relations act. The nlrb is not a party to collective bargaining, does not detect the terms of collective bargaining agreements. Instead the nlrb establishes standards and oppose remedies to ensure employees through their chosen representatives and employers bargaining in good faith.
▶ 0:37:39Mr. Kaplan: This framework leaves the terms of the collective bargaining agreement in the hands of those with the best knowledge of the employees needs and the economic conditions of the employer while respecting the section seven rights of employees. Like most things at matter, these negotiations take time. Additionally, the time it takes to reach an agreement depends on a number of factors including the number and complexity of the issues, the parties bargaining experience, and the current state of the business and the economy.
▶ 0:38:08Mr. Kaplan: As such, the success or failure of collective bargaining should not be judged by the time it takes to reach an agreement. There are two methods through which a labor organization becomes the occlusive representative of a punitive employees under the nlra. Recognition and certification. Both recognition and certification bar any challenge of the labor organizations representation for up to 12 months.
▶ 0:38:29Mr. Kaplan: While the bar fundamentally conflicts with the section seven right of employees to choose whether or not to be represented by a labor organization, the period serves the overall goal of the nlra, labor stability. The employer and the certified are recognized labor organizations must bargain in good faith. Regarding the and conditions of employment.
▶ 0:38:52Mr. Kaplan: This obligation persists until the employer has objective evidence that a labor organization has lost majority support in either a collective bargaining agreement is not an effect or has expired. The employer violates section eight a five if it fails to bargain in good faith, the labor organization violates section eight b three if it fails to bargain in good faith. To satisfy the good-faith requirement, the employer and the labor organization must negotiate with a bona fide intent to reach an agreement.
▶ 0:39:23Mr. Kaplan: However, the employer in the labor organization are free to engage in hard bargaining and exert economic pressure including strikes and lockouts. Neither the nlra nor nlrb set the frequency or duration of negotiations or the terms of the agreement. Certain actions have been considered per se refusals to bargain, however, more often, the nlrb considers the totality of the conduct to determine whether the employer or labor organization is acted in bad faith.
▶ 0:39:53Mr. Kaplan: In almost all the cases where the nlrb finds that faith bargaining, the nlrb orders the offending party to cease and desist from abusing to bargain and bargain upon request. The nlrb has also issued bargaining orders mandating a period in which the bargaining must occur in extending the certification or recognition bar.
▶ 0:40:15Mr. Kaplan: In more serious cases, the nlrb may issue a bargaining order from a broad bargaining order that extends the bargaining order to cover all unit employees covered by that labor organization. More tailored remedies including reimbursement of bargaining expenses have been ordered if a party engages in service bargaining. In the event the offending party fails to comply with orders, the nlrb can petition the U.S. court of appeals for judicial order enforcing its decision.
▶ 0:40:43Mr. Kaplan: A part of the does not comply with the courts enforcement order may be held in civil or criminal contempt. In some cases, even when parties bargain in good faith, they may still be unable to reach an agreement. The nlrb defined this moment as impasse. Like bad faith bargaining, impasse is a question of facts evaluated under the totality of circumstances. Impasse merely suspends the duty to bargain until there is a change in circumstances.
▶ 0:41:11Mr. Kaplan: Numerous studies have examined the time between recognition and certification in the signing of the first contract. 2009 study found that 48% reached a first contract within one year. 30% had no contract after three years. 2021 analysis found the average time to contract to be 409 days. While these numbers may appear concerning, they do not indicate that either employers or labor organizations are bargaining in bad faith.
▶ 0:41:40Mr. Kaplan: On the contrary, they are in acknowledgment that good faith bargaining takes time and in approximately 70% of cases and agreement is reached within three years. There are egregious examples of bad faith bargaining. I know because I was on the board when they pick it for us. But the nlrb has effectively dealt with these situations. During my time on the board, I regularly remind myself not to allow bad facts to make bad law. I encourage everyone to consider this before endorsing a significant shift in bargaining procedures under the nlra.
▶ 0:42:12Mr. Kaplan: I will conclude by saying the system works in my opinion. I look forward to answering any questions from the committee, members of the committee. I would just say, tomorrow, you will be voting on new members for the nlrb. The best way through which these issues can be dealt with is by having a form at the born-again.
▶ 0:42:32Chair Cassidy: I recognize senator sanders to introduce the democratic witnesses.
▶ 0:42:37Sen. Sanders: Thank you, Mr. chair. Please do introduce jennifer abruzzo, the senior advisor to the president of america, cwa. Ms. abruzzo spent nearly 30 years at the nlrb and most recently served as the nlrb general counsel, and in my view, served as the most pro-worker general counsel in the modern history of the nlrb. Ms.
▶ 0:43:06Sen. Sanders: Abruzzo, thank you for your years of service and your pro-worker advocacy. Thanks for being with us today.
▶ 0:43:10Ms. Abruzzo: Thank you, chairman cassidy, ranking member sanders, committee members. I did serve the public for almost 30 years at the national labor relations board, ultimately serving as its general counsel before I was fired earlier this year. Before I continue, I would like to thank all the currently furloughed government employees. Please stay strong. We understand you and your families are suffering along with us.
▶ 0:43:39Ms. Abruzzo: We very much appreciate your extraordinary commitment to serving the public. I appreciate the opportunity to speak today about the vital importance of protecting workers rights in this country. That includes addressing nlrb operations as well as shortcomings in the nlra itself. We all know the power dynamics at workplaces are skewed such that corporate power dominates to this day.
▶ 0:44:01Ms. Abruzzo: In enacting the nlra, congress sought to address that power imbalance by trying to level the playing field and give workers the rights to unionize, collectively bargain, and act together to seek better wages and working conditions without fear of retaliation. Congress back then rightly recognized that to have fairness at workplaces meant fostering strength in numbers. Over the course of my tenure, I have unfortunately seen it employers engage in many tactics to squelch workers voices and choices.
▶ 0:44:33Ms. Abruzzo: Despite the hard work of dedicated and talented career staff, the nlrb as a chronically underfunded and understaffed agency remains unable to truly effectuate U.S. policy of encouraging collective bargaining by protecting workers ' full freedom of association. The problems are neither the nlra nor the nlrb are fully empowering workers and protecting them in this country. Here are some solutions.
▶ 0:45:00Ms. Abruzzo: If you are to put working families first come as I believe you must, then you need to make serious investments in the nlrb. For years, it has not been sufficiently funded, and what this means in real terms for working people whose rights have been violated, their cases are languishing. Unfortunately, a corporation can afford to drag on government processes for years but workers cannot. But providing sufficient funding is not enough.
▶ 0:45:26Ms. Abruzzo: Nor is confirming two new board members, although I do believe it's crucially important to have a quorum. For eight months, this administration has deprived the board from issuing decisions, and who is benefiting from that dysfunction? Not workers, but employers, who feel emboldened to violate the law with impunity and retaliate against their workers because there is no functioning board to hold them accountable for their lawbreaking activity.
▶ 0:45:53Ms. Abruzzo: Corporate billionaires and ceos are trying to get rich off of the backs of employees while trying to silence them. They don't need more money or more tax breaks. Workers and their families do. And they need good, affordable health care. Employers should respect and recognize their workers for the value they add. I implore more senators to ensure that corporate interests are not elevated above workers rights.
▶ 0:46:19Ms. Abruzzo: Next, this congress needs to fight to maintain the statutory independence of agencies like the nlrb. This president believes he has the absolute power to ignore statutes passed by you, by congress, to fire people at whim, and to give his campaign donors a blank check to trample upon the rights of workers to unionize and act together to improve their situation.
▶ 0:46:43Ms. Abruzzo: And last, but certainly not least, congress needs to do a major overhaul of the current labor law to address the gaps that sadly just keep widening. The proactive, would among the things, broaden coverage, promote contract bargaining, enable workers to better exercise their power, and would assess reasonable cause for violations, to deter them.
▶ 0:47:10Ms. Abruzzo: I'm all for its passage which could be a floor from which states could elevate, but I don't even think that is enough. If we are serious about promoting collective worker power and workplace democracy, then we should be the expanding our thinking and consider models that have been successfully implemented elsewhere such as sectoral bargaining.
▶ 0:47:30Ms. Abruzzo: If this congress fails to protect workers and their families, whose interest you were elected to represent, that I expect that workers will not only elect different legislators next fall, but will return to the self-help activities predating 1935. That includes widescale protests and strikes in order to retake control of our governance, to gain or regain the benefits that were earned through hard work, and to receive the dignity and respect that is so richly deserved.
▶ 0:48:01Ms. Abruzzo: So let's all do our part so we remain a country of the people, by the people, and for the people. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:48:09Sen. Sanders: Thank you very much, Ms. abruzzo. Steve cochran is a uaw leader in chattanooga, tennessee. He has been working as a skilled trades worker at volkswagen's chattanooga plant for 14 years. After he and his coworkers voted overwhelmingly to join the uaw in what was an historic victory, one of the first major organizing efforts in the south, Mr.
▶ 0:48:36Sen. Sanders: Cochran was elected by his coworkers as cochair of the local 42 bargaining committee to negotiate the first contract between the uaw and volkswagen. Mr. cochran, thank you for being with us and thank you for your great work.
▶ 0:48:48Mr. Cochran: Good morning. Thank you, chairman cassidy, ranking member sanders. The red light is on, yes. Good morning and thank you, chairman cassidy, ranking member sanders, members of the committee, for the opportunity to testify with you today. My name is steve cochran. On a proud automotive worker at the volkswagen in chattanooga, tennessee.
▶ 0:49:15Mr. Cochran: A year and a half ago, I coworkers and I voted three to one to join the united auto workers. A year later, we still don't have a union contract. We are still waiting for the company to agree to a proposal that cynthia affords us a fair share. We are living with health care that force people into bankruptcy. We are living with no protection from inflation. The company has a repeat of the violated labor law to delay us our fair share. They have unlawfully cut jobs at the chattanooga client, they have unlawfully refused to bargain in good faith.
▶ 0:49:47Mr. Cochran: They presented us with a quote on quote final offer that maintains subpar health care, doesn't protect our wages from inflation, makes no commitment to keeping the good jobs in chattanooga there. This is a pattern for volkswagen. Earlier this year, our brothers and sisters at the volkswagen distribution center in new jersey organized with their union. But the company broke the law so extremely and the antiunion behavior, the national labor relations board had to step in.
▶ 0:50:18Mr. Cochran: Last week, the nlrb found merit in the union's allegations and said it was seeking an order requiring the company to recognize their union and to negotiate with the workers. We know this company and many other companies break the law. We know it's possible to enforce the law and force companies to negotiate with their workforce. Why are we not getting support? In tennessee why does volkswagen get to break the law and screw tennessee autoworkers out of their fair contract?
▶ 0:50:46Mr. Cochran: We have had to file federal labor charges against volkswagen over and over again during these negotiations. Volkswagen unlawfully cut jobs during these negotiations without bargaining with workers. That is against the law. Volkswagen has repeated they got because their proposals and bargain in bad faith. That is against the law. They have intimidated voters on a right to strike. The best we can do is pass new laws like the proactive.
▶ 0:51:13Mr. Cochran: At least we can do is enforce the laws that we have on the books them. Your average worker has to fight like hell to win their union against constant illegal activity from their employers. If they overcome that to win your unit, they have to fight like hell to win their union contracts and actually improve their lives. This process can take years. Every year this is a slap in the face of the workers who make these companies profitable. I have worked at volkswagen for 14 years we we show up every day to do our jobs.
▶ 0:51:43Mr. Cochran: We do what our members of congress ask us to do. We make high-quality vehicles in the united states, we follow the rules, every one hour union fair and square with the national labor relations board boat. I am providing for my family and contributing to my community. We are doing our jobs speedily the question is why isn't the federal government doing its job? While we are asking for in chattanooga is a union contract.
▶ 0:52:06Mr. Cochran: We are asking for a fair wage, health care that does not put us into bankruptcy, and basic rights that thousands of autoworkers already enjoy at ford, automakers across the world. Volkswagen made $20 billion in profit last year, and yet, when it comes to doing right by american workers in tennessee, they break the law with impunity. The federal government is painfully slow to act. Members of congress are solid and working-class people in tennessee pay the price. There is no? As in this country need new laws like the pro act.
▶ 0:52:38Mr. Cochran: If the faster labor contracts act were already lost, volkswagen would have a contract. Even if we cannot pass those bills, we can still make the unionbusting stop. We can fully fund the national labor relations board so that it is able to do its job. You can stand with the U.S. workers who are your constituents. When management stops to trout us from voting and exercise our right to negotiate.
▶ 0:53:06Mr. Cochran: You can tell corporation with one voice loud and clear that those rights are already protected by the united states of america. We asked the committee, it is great that we are talking about changing law, but volkswagen understand that and many other fortune 500 companies are breaking the law every day. I do my best to provide for my family, do my best to provide a world-class automobile. I'm doing my best to do by the book. Form a union and when a better life.
▶ 0:53:37Mr. Cochran: When will the federal government do your job and enforce the laws? When the working-class people get their fair shake when they stand up for themselves? Thank you for hearing me.
▶ 0:53:47Chair Cassidy: Thank you. I will begin with questions. Mr. kaplan, you just made a case that the system works. Ms. abruzzo and Mr. cochran refute that. How would you respond?
▶ 0:54:01Mr. Kaplan: I think they highlight the time it takes to get a decision issued by the board. At times, it has taken too long. I think there's an understanding that it could work faster. I would say, when we were in the majority under the previous administration, our backlog --
▶ 0:54:22Chair Cassidy: When you say we --
▶ 0:54:27Mr. Kaplan: Nine years on the board. The board itself, when the republicans were in the majority, we got the lowest levels probably in recent memory.
▶ 0:54:37Chair Cassidy: Ms. abruzzo, whom I'm sure will differ, but her point that the under resourced -- the implication is with current resources cannot manage. Your point was that in previous times, roughly equal resources, you were able to get the backlog down.
▶ 0:54:55Mr. Kaplan: I think the question becomes -- there are two sides of the board, there is the board side and the gc side. The argument is there is not enough staff to work on those cases. I would argue on the board side there is and the board has worked effectively when it has made those efforts.
▶ 0:55:13Chair Cassidy: Mr. cochran would make the point -- tell us how you would view his statement in terms of taking too long to get a deal.
▶ 0:55:26Mr. Kaplan: Again, I don't know the specifics of the volkswagen deal but there have been other statements regarding jfk8 and the issues there. If you read my dissent, there were a lot more issues going on than merely what the collective bargaining or what was appropriate, what terms were at issue. These were issues with the representation election itself. Delays, I would argue, are not just at the bargaining table. They can relate to different things.
▶ 0:55:55Mr. Kaplan: A time it takes for the board to analyze a charge, determine whether it is meritorious, create a record through which a decision can be made does take time. But it is that time that provides the information that is necessary to make a thoughtful decision at the board level. At times, the board has not marked as effectively as I would argue it could with regard to adjudicating those cases in determining merit or determining what remedies were appropriate.
▶ 0:56:21Mr. Kaplan: But I would say the board, as it is exists today, is able to make those determinations in a timely manner. Whether the D.C. side works fast enough with regard to making its determination on merit, whether a chart can be filed at all is a different issue entirely. I think it depends on the general counsel.
▶ 0:56:38Chair Cassidy: Mr. cochran, I am told that volkswagen made an offer to the union, but that the unit did not present it for a vote. Any circumstances around that that we should know?
▶ 0:56:51Mr. Cochran: At their own admission, volkswagen said that offer was full of clerical errors and they are not letting people see the entirety of it. Until all of that stuff is settled out, how do we bring it back to our workers when the company itself says it is full of clerical errors and must be approved by their board before they can make sure it is right?
▶ 0:57:14Chair Cassidy: Ms. greszler, sometimes 30% of these go beyond three years. Is that equally divided as responsibility between labor and unions? Is that more one or the other?
▶ 0:57:29Ms. Greszler: It is both sides. These are legally binding contracts for multiple years. Especially when establishing the first contract, that can take a lot of time to figure out what are the issues?
▶ 0:57:42Chair Cassidy: Any sense of relative percent between the unions versus the employer as to who is responsible for not being completed within three years?
▶ 0:57:53Ms. Greszler: I don't have an average.
▶ 0:57:56Chair Cassidy: Mr. o'brien, would be a reason for a union to not agree -- my same question, if you will. It can go beyond three years. Some of these bills would seek to put a shot clock on it. Apparently sometimes it is labor which does not agree to a contract within three years. Perspective on that? Microphone, please.
▶ 0:58:20Mr. O'Brien: I don't agree with that statement because when we are organizing -- I was an organizer. 35 years, I've held every position. When members -- when employees seek to unionize their workers, they identify all the issues. You formulate at that point in time, start to formulate potential solutions in the event you get to an election.
▶ 0:58:45Mr. O'Brien: So you are well prepared on the issues, on what is causing a workplace to form a union.
▶ 0:58:52Chair Cassidy: I'm out of time but I may come back to that at the end. Next, senator sanders.
▶ 0:58:58Sen. Sanders: Thank you. I have a lot of questions in a short period of time, so I need your help. Let me begin with a yes, no, maybe on a half-dozen questions. Yes or no, starting with Mr. o'brien. Do you believe it was constitutional or president trump to terminate the union contracts of half a million federal workers and eliminate collective-bargaining for half a million -- 4 million federal workers?
▶ 0:59:29Sen. Sanders: Just pass if you don't want to comment.
▶ 0:59:30Mr. O'Brien: I'm here to talk about the contracts.
▶ 0:59:34Ms. Greszler: It is legal in some cases. Certainly some of those will be litigated.
▶ 0:59:40Chair Cassidy: Mr. kaplan, briefly.
▶ 0:59:43Mr. Kaplan: The court will determine whether it is lawful or not.
▶ 0:59:47Ms. Abruzzo: No.
▶ 0:59:48Mr. Cochran: No.
▶ 0:59:50Chair Cassidy: Mr. o'brien, --
▶ 0:59:56Mr. O'Brien: I support legislation that is going to actually organize.
▶ 1:00:01Chair Cassidy: --Sen. sanders: I'm sorry, I have a lot of questions.
▶ 1:00:07Mr. O'Brien: I support legislation that will help unions organize.
▶ 1:00:12Mr. Kaplan: I think it starts the narrative. No.
▶ 1:00:18Sen. Sanders: Mr. cochran.
▶ 1:00:20Mr. Cochran: Yes.
▶ 1:00:22Sen. Sanders: Mr. o'brien, do support gradually raising the minimum wage from the starvation wage of 7.25 to $70 an hour?
▶ 1:00:31Ms. Greszler: Minimum wage should be a state issue.
▶ 1:00:34Mr. Kaplan: Minimum wage should be a state or locality.
▶ 1:00:37Ms. Abruzzo: Yes.
▶ 1:00:39Mr. Cochran: Yes. .
▶ 1:00:42Sen. Sanders: Mr. o'brien, do support guaranteeing workers 12 weeks of paid family and medical leave?
▶ 1:00:52Ms. Greszler: I do not support once it -- one-size-fits-all family policies.
▶ 1:00:59Mr. Kaplan: I have to admit, I think there are opportunities there but I'm not sure what the right answer is.
▶ 1:01:04Ms. Abruzzo: Yes.
▶ 1:01:06Mr. Cochran: Yes.
▶ 1:01:08Sen. Sanders: Mr. o'brien, do you agree with amazon, jeff bezos, elon musk of spacex that the nlrb is unconstitutional?
▶ 1:01:18Mr. O'Brien: I do not agree.
▶ 1:01:20Ms. Greszler: Unsure.
▶ 1:01:22Mr. Kaplan: It's a question for the courts.
▶ 1:01:25Ms. Abruzzo: No.
▶ 1:01:27Mr. Cochran: No.
▶ 1:01:29Sen. Sanders: Let me go to Mr. cochran. Thank you very much. Last year, volkswagen made nearly $17 billion in profits, could afford to pay it ceo Mr. bloom $11 million in total compensation. Do you believe volkswagen can afford to give your members a decent contract with fair wages and benefits?
▶ 1:01:50Mr. Cochran: Thank you for the question. Of course. Anybody who understands, they can. Less than four cents per dollar that they may go to the workers in chattanooga for the cars that we sell, less than four cents. They can afford to pay us a better wage.
▶ 1:02:10Sen. Sanders: Mr. cochran , today, as5 I understand it,26days
▶ 1:02:25Mr. Cochran: There are several factors why it is taking so long. A lot of them are bargaining in bad faith. You try to work on something with them and they come back with something different, you agree with that, and they change it again. You try to figure all of that out. It is the constant taking six months to start bargaining because they had to get their stuff together. Bargaining with them. They don't meet back with us. We have language that we pass with them in october 2020 four.
▶ 1:02:57Mr. Cochran: They have yet to answer.
▶ 1:02:57Sen. Sanders: Ms. abruzzo, we have heard some different opinions this morning including from your former nlrb colleague is to kaplan who says the system works. In your view, based on your experience at the nlrb, is the system working for the working class in this country?
▶ 1:03:14Ms. Abruzzo: No, the system is rewarding lawbreakers in this country. The current nlra has very weak penalties. There is no self enforcing board orders. That adds much delay and allows employers to abuse the process.
▶ 1:03:29Sen. Sanders: Why are multimillionaires like bezos and musk challenging the constitutionality of the nlrb?
▶ 1:03:36Ms. Abruzzo: Because they don't want to be held accountable for their lawbreaking activity.
▶ 1:03:40Chair Cassidy: Senator paul.
▶ 1:03:46Sen. Paul: Quite a few business entities have weighed in on the faster labor contracts bill. I have a list of 29 associations including packaging, chemical distribution, hotel and lodging, truckers, builders contractors, a whole host of associations. I would like to ask unanimous consent that these organizations that are opposed to the national labor relations act contract be entered into the record.
▶ 1:04:13Chair Cassidy: Without objection.
▶ 1:04:15Sen. Paul: A list of 45 different business association groups opposed to the warehouse workers fact. As for unanimous consent for those to be record into the record.
▶ 1:04:25Chair Cassidy: Without objection.
▶ 1:04:27Sen. Paul: Ms. greszler, how do right to work states compared with non-right to work states, business formation, economic growth, unemployment, things like that?
▶ 1:04:37Ms. Greszler: Over the past 50 years or so we have seen about a two times implement growth and three times the population growth in these right to work states. That is because they attract more businesses because they have the certainty of knowing that they will be able to set up their shop and not have a union come in and take control of their operations.
▶ 1:04:56Sen. Paul: How did wages compare? Right to work states are just paying, exploiting their labor and paying the workers less? How do workers wages compare in right to work versus non-right to work states?
▶ 1:05:09Ms. Greszler: Thank you for asking because that is often misunderstood. When you do an apples to apples comparison and right to work and non-right to work states, when you account for the differences of cost-of-living, workers and right to work states do just as well if not better than those in non-right to work states.
▶ 1:05:25Sen. Paul: I'm impressed as I go around to large international businesses that are not unionized, how good the workers are doing and how happy the workers are with their job, as well as health care in the whole gamut of things. When we look at the faster labor contracts act, Ms.
▶ 1:05:45Sen. Paul: Greszler, you mentioned, it impairs the ability on the sides of labor and business, can feel like they're full ability to exact their leverage might be limited. Labor might have over a longer period of time the ability to strike. The owners may have the ability to let go workers, trying to figure this out car pressure both ways.
▶ 1:06:14Sen. Paul: It takes some of the give-and-take away. Instead of being replaced by labor and business, it would be replaced by some bureaucrat not involved in this.
▶ 1:06:21Ms. Greszler: That is really important, that it affects both sides of the issue. When we have a first contract especially with a company that has never been involved in negotiations or a union, the first time they are representing workers, they need to understand all the issues at play and the need to play those out. Will this make my company on competitive, will I have to shut down or lose jobs? For the record to consider all the different things they may bargain over. What is most important to them? What are the long run implications?
▶ 1:06:52Ms. Greszler: That first contract sets the stage for decades more of future contracts. When you look at these contracts that are out there, I looked at ford's contract with the uaw, it is hundreds of pages, thousands if you include memorandums of agreement. There are 313 items listed on the table of contents that they bargain over. These are too many things for both workers and for employers to be able to consider within a time of 120 days.
▶ 1:07:19Sen. Paul: Some have argued that the right to contract is a basic fundamental right on which the economy is based, the right to have certainty, honesty, have the courts uphold without an arbitrary nature, to look at contract from a dispassionate point of view. Getting involved in the middle of contracts I think should be done widely.
▶ 1:07:49Sen. Paul: Considering the ramifications of what it does to the economy at large. The national right to work law basically removes some aspects of federal law, doesn't create new law. The way the national labor relations act was written says you cannot discriminate against workers. They had to put an exemption there, except you can't discriminate against nonunion workers basically. That exemption is what is removed by national right to work. What would happen if we had national right to work?
▶ 1:08:20Sen. Paul: But with the economics and will be?
▶ 1:08:22Ms. Greszler: I think it would improve the economy. We have seen what has happened in the states that our right to work. More importantly, it preserves that fundamental right of every worker to be able to choose whether or not they are forced to pay a private entity as a condition of their employment. That is just a fundamental protection they should have.
▶ 1:08:42Chair Cassidy: Senator hassan.
▶ 1:08:47Sen. Hassan: Thank, chair cassidy, ranking member sanders, for having this hearing. Thank you to the witnesses were being here today. Before I get to my questions, I want to address the fact that the federal government remains shut down as we are having this hearing.
▶ 1:09:04Sen. Hassan: While today this committee discusses a really important topic, congress should be working to find a bipartisan path to do two things, we open the government and take action to prevent health insurance costs from skyrocketing for everybody, and to prevent millions of americans from losing their health insurance. That is what is at stake right now.
▶ 1:09:28Sen. Hassan: While I look forward to hearing from our witnesses, I will continue to urge my colleagues to come together on a bipartisan basis and reach agreement to get this done. Two Mr. o'brien, -- to Mr. o'brien, workers are sometimes unaware of their rights and protections under the national labor relations act, which I will also know was deemed constitutional back in 1937. This notion that we need to revisit the constitutionality of it seems to me misplaced.
▶ 1:09:59Sen. Hassan: Mr. o'brien, we can help overcome that knowledge cap by ensuring that a notice of protected rights is posted in the workplace. You have talked about the need to get some laws on the books a step at a time that helps workers. I am working with senator hawley on introducing legislation that would help achieve this. Can you speak to how to advance in comments on proposals like this would help level the playing field for workers?
▶ 1:10:22Mr. O'Brien: It's important that when you go into our workplace, whether union or nonunion, you know your rights, federal rights as an employee. If you go into any workplace, whether union or nonunion, you see osha standards posted, fair wage law notices posted, a lot of postings, but you don't see certain postings on people's right to organize in the workplace.
▶ 1:10:45Mr. O'Brien: If we are truly going to be consistent about postings, we should include everyone's rights at the workplace and what those rights are. I know this new generation of workers coming into any industry, they are extremely -- want transparency in the workplace. They want to know their rights, whether union or nonunion. I applaud you and senator hawley for taking that initiative.
▶ 1:11:12Sen. Hassan: Thank you. Ms. abruzzo, some large corporations use stalling tactics to avoid bargaining in good faith with their employees. What changes to labor law and labor law enforcement do you recommend to address this issue?
▶ 1:11:27Ms. Abruzzo: Thanks for the question. Let me just give you an example of amazon, a warehouse in staten island, where the workers voted for the union, teamsters union actually, back in april 2022. Amazon is still not at the bargaining table, october 2025. So, it is a real problem.
▶ 1:11:57Ms. Abruzzo: I agree that I think we need to speed up first contract bargaining, but what I will say, it is not enough. Unless you can make more robust organizing rights and protections, you don't get to the bargaining table. So it is really important to address that.
▶ 1:12:15Sen. Hassan: I will follow-up with you on some specifics because we would all be interested in hearing what those specifics might be to get it to this point where the stalling tactics are curtailed. We can enforce the law. Mr. cochran, just a minute left. I want to move to you. I want to follow up on the question I just asked Ms. abruzzo. You have experienced these stalling tactics firsthand with vw.
▶ 1:12:45Sen. Hassan: Given your on the ground perspective, what impact do these stalling tactics have on workers who are trying to negotiate?
▶ 1:12:53Mr. Cochran: The biggest setback we see is the fatigue factor. It makes them want to give up. They want to stop fighting because they feel like they are -- there is no win. They cannot win it. With the nlrb standard, volkswagen also knows there is no real penalty for it. They can just push it and push it. At the end of the day come if they are found guilty of all of it, it is just a notice hung up in the plant that says we will not do it again and the process starts over again.
▶ 1:13:24Mr. Cochran: The brokers feel like there is absolutely no way to win. That is the big thing. We have very strong workers in our plant and they are not giving up.
▶ 1:13:31Sen. Hassan: Thank you, Mr. chairman.
▶ 1:13:34Chair Cassidy: Senator marshall.
▶ 1:13:38Sen. Marshall: . Thank you. My first question for Mr. o'brien. I ran a small business and understood how important certainty was to be running the business, but I had not spent as much time thinking about the union town I grew up in, where my family members work for unions, my friends parents work for unions as well. How important -- what is the union and the contract do for the certainty of that work and family?
▶ 1:14:12Sen. Marshall: Your first rodeo.
▶ 1:14:14Mr. Cochran: I'm a fourth-generation teamster, so I've seen the value of growing up under a union contract. To provide security which takes a lot of the pressure of raising a family, buying a home, planning for the future, it eliminates a lot of that as well. There is this fallacy that a contract or a workforce, the intention is to put that small employer or business out of business.
▶ 1:14:43Mr. Cochran: That is not the intention -- intention. I've negotiated with the largest corporations down to small mom-and-pop's, and the reality is if people want to get to a reasonable agreement that works for the business and their employees and if employers truly value their employees they will respect their employees wishes to join a union. Conversely, if employers do not want a unionized workforce, it is simple.
▶ 1:15:12Mr. Cochran: Treat your employees with dignity and respect, pay them the wages and benefits they deserve, and you will never see this face.
▶ 1:15:21Sen. Marshall: Thank you so much. I certainly understand, I'm the bank at there, I'm ready to make a loan on that young family's first home, and if they are two weeks out from that union contract being over with I would be in a lot different situation than if they are in your one of that contract, and that that is a good long to make. I think that is some of the certainty I was thinking about as well. This talk about joint employer standards.
▶ 1:15:51Sen. Marshall: This is something important to us. I will stick with Mr. o'brien on this. We have seen companies abuse the joint employer standards. We have seen them abuse. On the other hand, I'm a big supporter of franchises and think they do a great job and it is a great opportunity. They have given so many people their american dream of owning their own business and I think it is great for women and veterans, for minorities, great opportunities as well.
▶ 1:16:16Sen. Marshall: Where is the opportunity to help take care of labor's concerns, as well as the franchisor's concerns when it comes to joint employers? Is there any opportunity for common ground here?
▶ 1:16:26Mr. O'Brien: I think we have seen the joint employer argument go both ways, depending on what administration it is. I know you have a bill pending regarding franchisees and I will be honest, I have not taken a look at it. One thing I am encouraged about what you are doing, is you are looking for a road to consensus on what an actual joint employer means, and defining that is.
▶ 1:16:55Mr. O'Brien: Often times this joint employer rule has been utilized as basically regulatory ping-pong, where there is really no concrete definition of what a joint employer is. You know, we have our own arguments and our own arenas when you are talking about amazon and big corporations, but hopefully with some of this legislation put forth and the conversations I think what is more important than anything is having conversations and having to -- having disagreement in the
▶ 1:17:27Mr. O'Brien: Disagreement and dialogue leads to a solution everybody can understand. You may not agree with that, but if there is a definition of what it is, let's follow what it is and force it accordingly. Give us all some certainty. Mr. kaplan, I wanted to go to you next. What would be a reasonable amount of time, in your experience, for a newly-unionized worker to reach a first collective bargaining agreement? Maybe it is a timeframe or range of time? What would be reasonable in your experience?
▶ 1:18:01I Think It Does Mr. Kaplan: Not lend itself to that clear-cut rule. That is inherent in where the board sort of sat with the certification bar. In the certification bar was put in people thought that maybe one year was sufficient. I think in the current environment, where the issues that are being addressed by these collective bargaining units have changed significantly, just recently there has been suggestions of political issues coming up in collective bargaining, etc..
▶ 1:18:29I Think It Does Mr. Kaplan: In that sort of backdrop where the issues have become more complicated you are in a much different situation then you were when those bars were put in place. So, I guess the question is not -- and I guess it falls back on the question is, are you bargaining in good faith? Not, is there a prescribed amount of time these things could be met for everyone? Because not every she will fit every single individual. I don't think it is always clear that 30% means it was a breakdown.
▶ 1:18:58Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Senator hickenlooper.
▶ 1:19:03Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you, Mr. chair. I echo my appreciation for you taking your time to help us with this. Do I get closer? I will sidle up to the microphone. The first question I would like to direct you come up the chart behind me, this chart shows a clear correlation between union membership and, in this form, income disparity.
▶ 1:19:32Sen. Hickenlooper: We see that when union membership is higher income disparity is lower. Lower and middle classes see a higher share of income. This is -- correlates along a number of decades. So, Ms. abruzzo, do you agree that a strong middle class is essential to the economic health of our nation?
▶ 1:19:56Ms. Abruzzo: Absolutely, and unions are there to make sure the middle class gets their fair share of the profits that they help their operations make. And actually, collective bargaining helps with the income disparity and addresses racial and gender pay gaps.
▶ 1:20:12Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you. Ms. greszler, do you agree that unions are a key part of growing the middle-class? Do you agree that a strong middle class is crucial for our country?
▶ 1:20:24Ms. Greszler: I think a strong middle class is crucial for the country and I think it is the workers themselves that are -- need to have the control over what is important to them and it is not necessarily a union. Union can be helpful to some workers and they should have that right, but others should have the right also.
▶ 1:20:42Sen. Hickenlooper: Understand those rights but I think it is startling to look at the decline in union membership as the size of the middle class shrinks. We go back and just talk about the credibility of workforce data. I think it is paramount to making sure we craft targeted policy. Especially when we are going to see these rapid changes around ai.
▶ 1:21:09Sen. Hickenlooper: Recent events, the firing of euro and labor statistics commissioner mcintosh for, other staffing shortages within the department, raise serious concerns about disruptions to our national understanding, let's say -- our understanding of the labor market. Ms. abruzzo, I know your experience is not with the bls, but can you talk about why transparent data and analysis is important for all of us to understand how the workforce is changing?
▶ 1:21:40Ms. Abruzzo: Thank you for that, and I could not agree more. Members should not live. And the government should be transparent. To better inform everybody. You mentioned something I would like to address, and that is, ai.
▶ 1:21:57Ms. Abruzzo: I go back to the issues regarding large corporations, and actually not so large corporations trying to avoid liability by throwing money at problems or otherwise avoiding liability by creating models to try to distance themselves from workers, despite the fact that they control terms and conditions of employment.
▶ 1:22:20Ms. Abruzzo: We had a witness that just set a little earlier that the use of ai is important because robots can't sue. And so, you know, it is very important for us to remember that these models are in place not to empower workers, but actually to ensure that corporations retain their powers and put the domes on the scale.
▶ 1:22:47Sen. Hickenlooper: I appreciate that. Mr. o'brien, I was going to ask you, just because I have a cousin, the late george hickenlooper, who is a film director, and I was his rabbit's foot. He would give me cameos in his movies. I ended up becoming a member of the screen actors guild. I was amazed to see firsthand the connection between the screen actors guild and the teamsters.
▶ 1:23:12Sen. Hickenlooper: I just thought, in the complexity of labor markets today that ability for those two unions -- I mean, is that a hard -- they support each other intimately. At least in colorado. Is that a hard thing to navigate?
▶ 1:23:25Mr. O'Brien: No, not a goal -- not at all. We want to get them the best working conditions and that is the principle, whether you are in the writers guild awards teamsters union. I will say this. There's two things that are threatening the motion picture industry right now. Ai and also these american companies, these film companies going overseas to shoot movies where it is cheaper.
▶ 1:23:54Mr. O'Brien: We could potentially destroy an american icon, movie production. So, we have to be focused on that as well.
▶ 1:23:58Sen. Hickenlooper: I'm going to submit -- amount of time and I know what happens when you run out of time on this committee. But I am going to cement a question about all of the cancellations of energy projects and what that does for a worker, for the workforce members you represent. You will get that written. I will dare ask you to verbalize it now. Thank you.
▶ 1:24:20Chair Cassidy: Senator hawley.
▶ 1:24:22Sen. Hawley: Thanks for calling this hearing. Thanks for the witnesses for being there. I want to start with you, Mr. o'brien. First, context. We are here to diagnose the issue. Diagnose the problem. That is the title of the hearing. Let's take a look at what the problem is that is staring us in the face, which is the rise of these giant corporations like amazon, for example. The biggest corporations in the history of america, the biggest corporations in the history of the world.
▶ 1:24:52Sen. Hawley: The richest in the history of the world. They are making money like we have never seen before, but they don't want to pay their workers. A lot of times they don't want to have workers. Look at amazon. Here is their net sales and net income in 2024. Amazon's net sales topped $600 billion. 630 $7 billion, to be exact. Their net income doubled from 2023 to 2024. Doubled.
▶ 1:25:19Sen. Hawley: Their ceo is getting paid -- let me make sure I get this right -- in 2024 amazon's president earned $40.1 million in total compensation. 40.1. The previous year he had earned nearly $29.2 million. That is great work if you can get it. That is an unbelievable rise. According to their own financial disclosures amazon's average worker, average employee worldwide is making $37,181.
▶ 1:25:53Sen. Hawley: $37,181. That is a c suite to employee ratio of 1078-one. Meanwhile, these guys are fighting you, Mr. o'brien, every step of the way as you try to get some basic representation for their workers, for their drivers. Tell us about what you have been facing from this company.
▶ 1:26:14Mr. O'Brien: Amazon is probably the largest violator of the nlra right now. They have grown significantly, to your point, they focus on 150% turnover ratio in their workforce. They focus on distressed communities. And they are the number one violator of osha. They have the most violations the last time we checked.
▶ 1:26:42Mr. O'Brien: Now, we have a model that is a similar company that employs similar workforce at united parcel service. 340 thousand teamsters that are part-time and full-time. Most part-timers earned full-time benefits, health, welfare, and pension. They earn wage increases during two. They earn a livable wage. And most importantly, they have a path to a full-time career.
▶ 1:27:09Mr. O'Brien: That on the average the ups full employee makes about $140,000 per year for doing the same business. Ups is a very profitable business.
▶ 1:27:18Sen. Hawley: Talk about 140,000 dollars and change. You talk about that versus 37,000, I'm thinking about the dignity of the individual. How are you supposed to raise a family on $37,000? Difference between that and what you have been able to secure at ups has been incredible. Amazon is also one of the biggest offenders when it comes to not negotiating with workers who decided to unionize. You mentioned staten island. I think they are still waiting.
▶ 1:27:46Mr. O'Brien: Staten island was organized in 2022. It took a certain amount of time to get certified. Once certified the intent is to sit down and bargain a contract. We actually represent those workers now, and in three years we have not been able to get them to a table. It has been stall tactics. Obviously challenging the constitutionality of the in lra, but also filing charges at the nlrb.
▶ 1:28:17Mr. O'Brien: They are contradicting themselves just to use union avoidance. And I believe there was a article in the economic policy institute which was that on that stated amazon has zero intention of engaging in good faith collective bargaining with representatives of staten island workers. Their business model, which relies on high worker turnover and avoiding responsibility for employees, is designed to make union organizing impossible.
▶ 1:28:42Sen. Hawley: Tell us why the faster labor contracts act is so important. Important to put a shot clock on these corporations could -- so they can't say, good luck to you, we are never going to talk to you.
▶ 1:28:53Mr. O'Brien: The act has timelines. It has consequences for bad behavior. And I think it is important that if and when those faster labor contracts act is passed bad actors like amazon will be forced to the table, will be forced to negotiate, and will have to agree to first time contracts. Without retaliating against the employees.
▶ 1:29:21Mr. O'Brien: And you will see a continued workforce that has a future under this faster labor act.
▶ 1:29:26Sen. Hawley: Many folks on our side of the aisle talk about their concern about what corporations and I'm worried about woke corporations too. Want to make woke corporations a thing of the past? Make them accountable to the american worker. Give them a voice. That is the solution. Thank you. >> I want to build off what my colleague said. Mr. cochran, you laid out all of the challenges we have been facing here.
▶ 1:29:55Sen. Hawley: Would you think would be the impact of actions like the faster labor contracts act or the proactive, to what it is you are trying to get down?
▶ 1:30:04Mr. Cochran: It is obvious I would not be sitting here today without a contract. Also, timetables. The company would have criteria to be ford or someone would step in to make sure it was done correctly.
▶ 1:30:21Sen. Kim: To add some structure, not trying to dictate the outcome?
▶ 1:30:25Mr. Cochran: Holding them accountable basically on both sides.
▶ 1:30:29Sen. Kim: Ms. abruzzo, I wanted to touch base with you. What we had heard earlier from Ms. greszler, that her understanding is that workers are doing well, if not better, in right to work states. You saw my colleague talk about broader questions about income inequality nationwide, but I would be interested, just hearing your understanding of state-by-state, whether or not you agree with Ms. greszler's conclusion?
▶ 1:30:57Ms. Abruzzo: I don't agree, and it has been reported repeatedly that when you have union representation that can actually negotiate at the table for improved wages and benefits, that represented workers on average in the same industry, same classifications make at least 13% more than non-unionized workers in the same industry and same classification.
▶ 1:31:25Ms. Abruzzo: It is hugely important that workers have a voice at the table and have good negotiators at the table that can bargain on their behalf, and I would say for every communal, there are high road employers out there that do collectively bargain with unions as their workers' representatives, but they are far and few between, and there is no incentive under the current nlra to bargain in good faith, because you are at a competitive disadvantage when compared to many, many employers
▶ 1:32:00Ms. Abruzzo: And corporations that refuse to bargain in good faith and abuse the nlrb's processes.
▶ 1:32:03Sen. Kim: Think you for that detail. One thing that stood out to me when I was looking into some of the data here is that it is not just about the union workers. Some of these states that have the highest union density, it is about lifting the bar for everybody in that state. About 70% of states with the highest union density have enacted paid sick leave legislation. Compared with just about 11.8% of low union density states. Does that resonate?
▶ 1:32:33Sen. Kim: Is that a coincidence or do you think there is a connection there?
▶ 1:32:35Ms. Abruzzo: Absolutely not. It is not a coincidence. It is why I say we need to be thinking more boldly and thinking about sectoral bargaining and models like that. There are states that actually have promoted and put together wage boards, or industry standards boards because they want to have the same wages and standards in a particular sector or industry in order to take wages and compensation off the
▶ 1:33:05Ms. Abruzzo: Table. So that companies are no longer competing over wages and compensation and what they should be competing about is the quality of the products and services that they provide. Not the wages and compensation of their workers.
▶ 1:33:21Sen. Kim: Ms. abruzzo, I would like to stay with you for second here. Mr. kaplan raised this question about the backlog at the nlrb. And said that when it was under republican leadership that backlog went down. That is not necessarily about needing more resources, but when I look at this, I mean, there are different ways to bring down a backlog, right? You could take some steps to be able to try to adjudicate and try to work to the cases. Input in that effort.
▶ 1:33:48Sen. Kim: But there are ways in which you can dramatically reduce that backlog through dismissing cases or saying that they don't have merit. I wanted to get a sense from you of what you saw from your time there and how different ways have -- how republicans and democrats have handled trying to address a backlog?
▶ 1:34:05Ms. Abruzzo: What the former chair correctly noted is that there is a complete divide between the board side, which is around 100 folks or so, and the general counsel side, which is over 1000 folks. In the general counsel side, of which I lead, investigates and litigates cases. And without proper funding and proper resources and proper staff you cannot do the investigations and litigation that needs to get done.
▶ 1:34:35Ms. Abruzzo: And so, it is critical, but again, as I said before, it is not enough, and, frankly, the nlra, there is delays inherent in the process because board orders, even if the chair were to institute a speedy round of getting board decisions done, orders are not self-enforcing, so employers can go into court and dragged a timeout in court before any sort of order
▶ 1:35:06Ms. Abruzzo: Actually comes down.
▶ 1:35:08Chair Cassidy: Senator husted.
▶ 1:35:11Sen. Husted: When I was a kid I remember my dad and uncles having conversations about labor-management issues because in ohio at the time factories were closing. He was a shrinking pie and people were struggling. Including many -- many members of my family. It compels me now that there has to be a way for workers and businesses to succeed. One of the ways we do that is by growing the pie.
▶ 1:35:39Sen. Husted: We have an opportunity now in this country, as america sees this necessity for our economic and national security, to make more things in america. It is essential that we do that. I think we are at a turning point where we have an opportunity to grow that pie and we also understand we have foreign competitors. We also understand we have inflation, because nobody wants to pay more and people want to stay in business.
▶ 1:36:07Sen. Husted: The good news is, we have technologies emerging that allow us to create more productivity and efficiency. And grow that pie for everyone. But is -- it is also a threat to displaced people and their jobs, and that makes a lot of folks nervous. We have to find a way forward both of those things can work. And particularly as it relates to artificial intelligence. I will start with you, Mr. o'brien. For teamsters technology can make them safer. As drivers, but it can also threaten their jobs.
▶ 1:36:37Sen. Husted: I just want to give you a chance and some others, how are you thinking about that issue, and what do you want us to know about it?
▶ 1:36:43Mr. O'Brien: Technology, artificial intelligence is definitely a threat to jobs in this country. I just want to actually recognize the bipartisan effort on the ai moratorium that you all took to make certain that states have the ability to regulate the implementation of ai, which was important. I think it was a step in the right direction to collaborate and get something done on both sides. I commend everybody for that.
▶ 1:37:14Mr. O'Brien: Ai is probably the biggest threat to any and all industries. And efficiencies are great for the workplace. Efficiencies and productivity do help businesses. And they help the safety of workers. I don't want to look like we are trying to be an impediment to any type of implementation of technology. Especially if it is going to make our jobs easier and safer. Look where we came from.
▶ 1:37:40Sen. Husted: You think this is something we should be -- and
▶ 1:37:43Will Mr. O'Brien: Working together and focused on it. If ai is going to compromise jobs let's find a way to retrain people whose jobs may be compromised. Ai cannot swing a hammer. Or wire a house.
▶ 1:37:57Sen. Husted: And we can pay them more.
▶ 1:38:00Mr. O'Brien: That is the theory. There is going to be a lot of white-collar jobs affected by this. There's going to be a labor -- layer of management that is going to be saving these corporations hundreds upon hundreds of dollars. Instead of going to the ceo, we should pay the existing workforce more and drive those wages up.
▶ 1:38:19Sen. Husted: Ms. kinsler, I will give you a chance.
▶ 1:38:23Ms. Greszler: Ai is another form of automation, and in the long run it is a positive thing that makes us more productive. And workers who are more productive get paid more. It is important to enable that. We also have an aging population in america. We are going to be calling on younger workers to produce more to support that aging population and automation can help with that.
▶ 1:38:46Ms. Greszler: But also recognizing there is disruption in the short-term, and I think that is where employers, workers, unions can work productively together to address that.
▶ 1:38:55Sen. Husted: A couple of quick things here. Mr. cochran, I'm interested. Are you in support of president trump's tariffs on auto imports?
▶ 1:39:06Mr. Cochran: There is no doubt that everyone agrees we should make more products in the united states. How we go about doing that is up for opinion. I know one thing about the tariffs --
▶ 1:39:18Sen. Husted: Can you just --
▶ 1:39:21Mr. Cochran: Almost every day talks about how the tariffs are hurting you. It is detrimental to your company to a point, but what are we supposed to do as the worker? Why are you threatening us?
▶ 1:39:38Sen. Husted: I looked at your background. You have the skilled trades background. Our illegal immigrants and foreign workers undermining wages of american workers?
▶ 1:39:48Mr. Cochran: Well, as far as you mean -- you mean as far as my job or as far as what?
▶ 1:39:55Sen. Husted: Skilled trades, construction?
▶ 1:39:58Mr. Cochran: I can say in my line of work I don't see it. I don't see immigrants --
▶ 1:40:04Sen. Husted: I just want to close, Mr. chairman, one of the things I'm concerned about, you heard Mr. o'brien talking about how ups pays workers health care benefits. Through negotiations and pensions. We have some companies that are offloading their health care costs in this country to the american taxpayer, because many of their workers are unmedicated. That is undermining the country and hopefully we can talk about that another time. Thank you.
▶ 1:40:33Chair Cassidy: Senator blunt rochester.
▶ 1:40:37Sen. Blunt: Rochester thank you, Mr. chairman. Colleagues, yesterday I saw a split screen on the news. Coverage of committee hearings and a shutdown clock. It was a tale of two realities.
▶ 1:40:54Sen. Blunt: Republicans continue to call committee hearings like it is business as usual, while americans are literally living in the midst of a shutdown that jeopardizes their health care, their jobs, and services americans rely on. Now, the issues here are very important. But the number one issue right now -- the number one priority in this moment -- should be reopening the government in restoring people's health care.
▶ 1:41:24Sen. Blunt: Today I want to use my time to remind us all what is at stake. We are in a pivotal moment. Energy costs are up. The price of food is up. The rent has gone up for many. And millions of americans in red states and blue states alike or on the brink of their health care costs doubling, or losing their health care altogether. From small businesses to farmers, to ranchers, to moms and dads.
▶ 1:41:53Sen. Blunt: At this very moment americans across our nation are making difficult decisions about how to make ends meet. We can fix this, but it requires negotiations. It requires us to do our jobs and find a path forward, together. We can reopen the government. We can restore health care for millions of americans who are counting on us.
▶ 1:42:17Sen. Blunt: But it requires urgency, it requires trust, and it requires a willingness to come to the table now. My republican colleagues controlled the white house, the house, and the senate. The ball is in your court. Let's make a deal. Thank you, and I yield back.
▶ 1:42:36Chair Cassidy: I will note that if we just continue the cr for seven weeks we could continue negotiations and republicans have consistently done that. With that, I recognize senator murkowski.
▶ 1:42:49Sen. Murkowski: Thank you, Mr. chairman, and thank you for the opportunity to have a conversation here. Some folks on labor policies. I like the hearing title diagnosing the issues and exploring the current proposals. We have heard several members here talking about current proposals.
▶ 1:43:12Sen. Murkowski: I think that is good, but it is always good to make sure that the proposals we have are in response to a fair diagnosis of the issues. My questions are probably going to be a little bit more general. I'm going to start with you, Mr. o'brien. I just have to say for the record, we really appreciate working with gary dixon up north. He's doing a good job for teamsters 959 up there.
▶ 1:43:44Sen. Murkowski: Know that you are well-read presented up there. But we are hearing some concerns about how we as a state really move forward with embracing the opportunities that we have in front of us. Whether it is resource development or whether it is just continuing on the initiatives we have been working on for so long. Our challenges are pretty basic.
▶ 1:44:15Sen. Murkowski: It is workforce when you are in a smaller state. When you are in a rural state you have challenges, right? It is more than basic. I go in and meet with our labor unions and I am prepared to be talking about -- talking about childcare. The challenges, the difficulty of getting a cdl in rural areas, where they do not have the training programs you have to go to to anchorage or somewhere else.
▶ 1:44:44Sen. Murkowski: It is literally a disqualifier for some of these things. One of the things we have, I think, done well, in alaska is tried to be collaborative when it comes to, for instance, the workforce development and training. We have had good, strong partnerships when we are looking specifically to our oil and gas industry.
▶ 1:45:12Sen. Murkowski: We have a pipeline training center in fairbanks that is a facility that has brought together leaders from construction, from oil and gas, from teamsters. We got laborers there, plumbers and pipefitters, engineers, got everybody. It is not this territorial, this is ours, this is yours. This is the broader alaskan community. I will put a general question to you, Mr. o'brien.
▶ 1:45:41Sen. Murkowski: As to any ideas you might have as to how we incentivize more of these joint training collaborations between industry and labor groups. I think we are doing a good job in alaska, but how do we replicate that in other areas?
▶ 1:45:56Mr. O'Brien: I think as a nation we would agree that collaboration is important to actually effectuate change. And regardless of if we agree or disagree on something, collaboration has to be the key to get programs like you were talking about in alaska implemented in other states that may need them.
▶ 1:46:16Mr. O'Brien: We need to be committed equally on both sides to make investments and -- in workforce training that can supplement some of these well-needed training facilities that you describe in alaska. We need to make investments in cdl training so we can qualify people that may lose a job because of ai or the implementation of technology.
▶ 1:46:38Mr. O'Brien: We also, to support a lot of these programs I think we need to have conversations with the people that are designing and implementing technologies that may eliminate jobs. That there is a mechanism to require them to fund job training in other industries so we can transition those people that are affected by the implementation of technology or ai to transition to other careers where they can sustain an middle-class living and provide for their families. I think accountability is important.
▶ 1:47:09Mr. O'Brien: Collaboration, having conversation and a direction to take care of the american workforce in situations like that.
▶ 1:47:14Sen. Murkowski: You got any good ideas on how we might address the childcare issue, which is keeping good folks from participating? I guess I --
▶ 1:47:25Mr. O'Brien: You can see why it is important.
▶ 1:47:28Sen. Murkowski: Want to make sure it is understood how important. It is not something we generally talk about when we are talking about labor issues. And yet if you cannot get programs --
▶ 1:47:40Mr. O'Brien: What is important about childcare is, we recognize, my generation, my dad was working 15 hours, 12, 15 hours a day in a middle-class job which allowed my mother to stay home so there were not childcare issues.
▶ 1:47:55Mr. O'Brien: We've got to find a way -- and I think the faster labor contracts act, which would mandate a quicker resolution to collective bargaining to provide higher wages and benefits, would be a solution to a problem that were not require two incomes in a home or two parents to be working. I could be a solution to the childcare issue as well.
▶ 1:48:15Sen. Murkowski: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. chairman. >> thanks so much, Mr. chair. It is impossible for me to jump into questions regarding labor law without first acknowledging that this administration is now actively working to subvert labor law and has actively created a massive crisis for hundreds of thousands of workers in my state and across the country.
▶ 1:48:47Sen. Murkowski: I am the senator to the people of the state of maryland, where we are the proud home of 494,000 federal workers and contractors. Today we are in day eight of a government shutdown. They shut down that impacts each of these constituents. Let's speak plain language. My colleagues have the keys to the kingdom. They have control of the white house, the senate, and the united states house of representatives.
▶ 1:49:14Sen. Murkowski: So, they are in control, and their refusal to come to the table in good faith and negotiate a plan that keeps the government open and makes sure that health care care is affordable and accessible is an abdication of duty. So many marylanders would like to show up to work today and serve the american people, but have been left behind by this administration. Hundreds of thousands of civil servants have been furloughed or forced to work without pay, all because this president has decided to shut down the government.
▶ 1:49:45Sen. Murkowski: These dedicated workers, whether deemed essential or furloughed, or legally entitled to backpay at the end of the shutdown, yet the office of headed by the very sinister russell vought, as used this republican shutdown is an opportunity for open and blatant worker retaliation.
▶ 1:50:05Sen. Murkowski: Right before the shutdown the same guy same -- first said he wanted workers and federal employees to feel so traumatized -- this is his quote -- that they would not want to come to work each day.
▶ 1:50:19Sen. Murkowski: He also instructed agencies to use the shutdown is an opportunity to issue permanent government layoffs, and just yesterday reports surfaced that this same guy is now circulating a memo that would seem to challenge the legality of furloughed workers receiving back pay. It's is the same law that president trump signed and said he would refuse them pay. Ms. abruzzo, I would like to ask.
▶ 1:50:47Sen. Murkowski: You are a career professional who has defended workers rights and protections under the law. Under the national labor relations act, is it illegal for an employer to threaten employees with a loss of pay to coerce them during a lawful labor dispute?
▶ 1:51:00Ms. Abruzzo: I give her the question, and, yes it is, and I so appreciate you raising this issue, because federal employees are the backbone of our government. They keep our workplaces safe, our food safe, our airspace safe, and they don't deserve this. They did not ask for this. And they should not be bargaining chips in negotiations, as you correctly noted.
▶ 1:51:27Ms. Abruzzo: This is a bullying tactic, and unfortunately this is not the first time the administration has inflicted trauma on these dedicated workers. And the president knows better. As you said, he signed the law in 2019 that provides for back pay for these furloughed workers, who I'm just reminding you did not ask for this and want to get back to work.
▶ 1:51:53Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you. I want to use that same standard. It's make the point finer. Federal workers who are being prevented from working, they are locked out of their jobs, and as you have mentioned, we are not imagining that this was done by design. Russell vought said it out of his mouth, that it is his intention to make sure people feel too traumatized to come to work.
▶ 1:52:19Sen. Alsobrooks: This is intended to hurt my constituents, and I would like to ask, what does it mean for the former nlrb general counsel, would you tell me what it means to cripple the investigative and enforcement functions of the nlrb? What it means for workers across the country?
▶ 1:52:37Ms. Abruzzo: Yeah. It means that the system is rigged against workers and they cannot exercise their congressionally-mandated rights to unionize and collectively bargain in order to get a fair share of what they deserve. It is just enabling lawbreaking activity.
▶ 1:53:03Sen. Alsobrooks: -- the department of labor has furloughed its staff, leaving a skeleton staff, and protect their civil rights in the workplace. Just 24% of osha's staff are working without pay. Just 10 employees are working at the wage and hour division, the division charged in part with present -- preventing child labor. All 10 are working without pay. This is a horrible mess and I want to lead with the quote of president trump, who once looked into the camera and told us the following.
▶ 1:53:34Sen. Alsobrooks: If the government shuts down, I think the president would be blamed, and rightfully so. This shut down lands at his feet. Thank you.
▶ 1:53:41Chair Cassidy: For the record, if senator schumer would agree to reopen, it would reopen tomorrow. Next is senator moody.
▶ 1:53:54Sen. Moody: I feel like we have to address the comments that have been made, but especially the last. Entire amount of time that was designed to suggest that this is a shutdown on anyone's watch other than the democrats and we cannot let that go unanswered and I agree with Mr.
▶ 1:54:13Sen. Moody: Brousseau, that this is a system designed against workers in the sense that this whole design of this shutdown led by shut down schumer and these democrats that will not keep the funding going for a few weeks while we can figure out next year's spending, it is there design to blame it on president trump, to blame it on the republicans, but it is in fact the democrats who have decided not to continue funding.
▶ 1:54:42Sen. Moody: So, they have to spend an entire time where I want to get to bipartisan solutions for labor. I was very excited. I have all of these suggestions. Especially florida, I feel we have done things right for workers. You cannot have somebody sit here and put in front of the american people that the government is shut down because of president trump or because of the republicans.
▶ 1:55:05Sen. Moody: It is on the backs of the democrats who have given them time and time again the opportunity to show up and vote yes, let's keep the government open so we can engage in these bipartisan conversations as someone whose oldest boys in the army, as someone who understands people are facing not getting paychecks.
▶ 1:55:24Sen. Moody: I think we just heard five minutes of comments on this rather than getting to bipartisan solutions on labor, because someone comes from a state where they have a lot of people that are employed by the federal government and they, by golly, need to blame it on someone else besides the democrats that are voting to open this government. It makes me incredibly sad, because we have really hard-working people in this country that are not going to get their paycheck. Soon.
▶ 1:55:52Sen. Moody: And so, I appreciate you letting me indulge in correcting the record, because we are here to do important work. This president, more than any president in my memory, has said, how can we come together in a way that is per worker and pro-business -- american business -- and do right and focus on how we can maybe tweak our laws to have a better system in place? I am all about that.
▶ 1:56:18Sen. Moody: And I appreciate you, sir, for coming in here today and saying, I've asked my members, let's come at this from a politically blind way. Who are the best people and one of the best policies we can push forward in this age of america?
▶ 1:56:38Sen. Moody: Where we are focusing on not how do we ensure strong, free markets, less red tape, better ability to build businesses, can support our workers and our families, and also have a strong back bone to support business and our american workers. Thank you for saying that. I took note of that and thought that was especially useful. I'm going to start with employee stock option plans.
▶ 1:57:10Sen. Moody: And I want to turn to you, Mr. o'brien. Have you found, or have you ever been in a negotiation where focusing on how employees might be given the opportunity to be owners in the businesses help alleviate some of the negotiation strife or mitigate strikes?
▶ 1:57:32Mr. O'Brien: No, my experience -- and there are stockholders in businesses -- that, in my experience, has not had an impact one way or another on what an employee feels, because he may be a stock owner of that particular business or not. My experience has been most of my members are always concerned about earning a livable wage, affordable health care, and negotiating pensions that they know they will be able to retire on with dignity and respect.
▶ 1:58:05Mr. O'Brien: My experience also in situations where you have employers that do not want to agree to retirement plans or any type of retirement outside of a 401(k), my experience has always been, when you look at the demographics of a 401(k) versus a pension, a 401(k) is usually taking money out of your own pocket, investing in a retirement plan. If you are lucky an employee may or may not take contributions.
▶ 1:58:30Sen. Moody: See you have not seen that be helpful in negotiations?
▶ 1:58:34Mr. O'Brien: I have not.
▶ 1:58:36Sen. Moody: Have you seen that? I'm tired of cutting you off.
▶ 1:58:39Ms. Greszler: This is a great way to empower workers added as a way that recognizes employees and employers are in business together. In a company profits, the workers profit. That is a great way to recognize that and have those individuals have a stake in the company.
▶ 1:58:56Sen. Moody: Amount of time. I had a million issue someone to discuss. I want to thank each of you for being here today. This is a great panel, and chairman cassidy, I commend you. Let me complement you.
▶ 1:59:08Chair Cassidy: You can go over your time to do that. [laughter]
▶ 1:59:12Sen. Moody: I knew it. Bringing together people who have different backgrounds and generally, it from a different place and the stakeholders they are representing, I think this is a great way for us to focus on legislation that has a chance of passing, and I was excited to be here today and I want to thank all of the witnesses. Thank you so much.
▶ 1:59:30Chair Cassidy: Senator baldwin.
▶ 1:59:32Sen. Baldwin: For a beginner I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record four letters, respectively, from the ale -- afl-cio, the american steelworkers, county and municipal employees, the american federation of teachers in support of strong labor law reform, including the pro act. And a letter from the uaw detailing organizing efforts at volkswagen.
▶ 2:00:02Chair Cassidy: Without objection.
▶ 2:00:04Sen. Moody: On that topic I want to turn to Mr. cochran. Thank you for being here today to show your experience, both in your efforts to get the company to come to a contract and come to negotiations, but also your experience on the factory floor. Your testimony highlights that forming a union is often just the first step in the fight for rights and fair treatment and dignity at the workplace.
▶ 2:00:37Sen. Moody: When employers refused to bargain in good faith workers are forced to consider dire options, like strikes, and right now the cards are stacked against workers when they use these tools as a last resort. Employers can and often do cut striking workers' health care to force them to end a strike. Rather than negotiate in good faith.
▶ 2:01:01Sen. Moody: I have a bill striking and locked out workers health care protection act, which would create a separate unfair labor practice category for when occurs -- or, employers cut or alter workers' health insurance while they are on strike or lock down. Could you talk about how this bill would help workers fighting for a fair contract?
▶ 2:01:32Mr. Cochran: Thank you very much for the question. It is kind of interesting bringing that topic up. Volkswagen used that topic to threaten workers not to be in favor of striking. That your health benefits will go away. Something like that was on the law that they couldn't, that takes away a lot of the pressure put back on the members who want to strike. He gives them an opportunity.
▶ 2:02:03Mr. Cochran: It is a good thing that the united auto workers picks up the health care for the autoworkers themselves. We are grateful for that. There is a lot of union workers or not union workers who want to strike that do not have that option. With that being in place it would take a huge power away from the company, a threat of losing your health care if you decided to stand up for your rights and strike.
▶ 2:02:24Sen. Baldwin: Thank you. Ms. abruzzo, I had intended to ask you to go a little bit more deeply into the consequence of understaffing and underfunding activities at the nlrb. Senator kim, kind of give you the opportunity to expand on your testimony on that matter. I want to talk more about the independence of the nlrb.
▶ 2:02:56Sen. Baldwin: You served as nlrb's general counsel, where you supported the mission of nlrb and helped maintain the board's independence. An independent nlrb is critical to enforcing the national labor relations act and upholding the rights of workers. During this administration we are seeing the nlrb's independence threatened.
▶ 2:03:18Sen. Baldwin: With the unlawful firing of board member wilcox and executive orders that assert control over the independence -- independent agency's operations. I have a few questions of how an nlrb that is independent should operate.
▶ 2:03:39Sen. Baldwin: If the white house had an tempted -- had attempted to prosecute an unfair labor practice case, what would you have done?
▶ 2:03:49Ms. Abruzzo: I would not have allowed the white house to influence any of my decision-making.
▶ 2:03:54Sen. Baldwin: Is an independent agency, should the nlrb ever be following white house orders instead of the law?
▶ 2:04:05Ms. Abruzzo: Not when it comes to the case precedent.
▶ 2:04:06Sen. Baldwin: If the white house is trying to influence nlrb decision-making do you think that is something that should be reported to congress?
▶ 2:04:15Ms. Abruzzo: Absolutely. It is an independent federal agency and congress needs to know whether the white house is trying to influence the decision-makers.
▶ 2:04:24Sen. Baldwin: Thank you.
▶ 2:04:26Chair Cassidy: Senator mullin's.
▶ 2:04:29Sen. Mullin: 's thank you, Mr. chairman, and I guess everybody is surprised to see shawn and I on the same page, considering the last time we were in this hearing room. I would like you -- to welcome you back to the committee and call you my friend. We talk all the time. You don't agree on every issue, but I think underneath the leadership of president trump and our common love for those that work in the labor industry we have found quite a friendship. So, welcome back.
▶ 2:05:00Sen. Mullin: A couple of things I want to say during first of all, we have heard democrats come in and with their talking points about the shutdown. I just want to remind that everyone of those democrats that spoke today about the shutdown, everyone of them voted for this exact same cr with the exact same language, with the exact same numbers a year ago to keep the government open.
▶ 2:05:26Sen. Mullin: Everyone of those democrats has spoken about today has also voted for in december, most of them voted for it in january and 10 of them voted for it in march. For them to sit there and say this lands on anyone else but themselves is a lie. Because the fact is, they elected chuck schumer to be their leader, and he is the one that is running scared of his election of aoc not until 2028.
▶ 2:05:52Sen. Mullin: He is the one that got chastised in march by her and all of a sudden his attitude about shutting down the government has changed. If he would simply release his members, all of those federal employees that they are concerned about could easily go back to work because they know as good as anybody else when they chose to shut down the government they gave the power to the president of the united states to shut down the authority to deem employees is essential and nonessential.
▶ 2:06:22Sen. Mullin: If they really are concerned about the employees, hooked a government backup. In fact, we are going to be voting again today on acr. Isn't that right, chairman? That they could open up the government today and we could simply go on with business. One thing I want to state. I've got all of the respect for my colleague from missouri. But I just want to talk about the labor.
▶ 2:06:50Sen. Mullin: I'm not saying it is right or wrong either, I'm just making sure it is understood. Talk about the average amazon employee's labor around the world being $36,000, just for statistic purposes that people understand, that is for the world. There is different labor rates, obviously, in different countries. Inside the united states the average amazon employee when they start on probation is somewhere between $55,000 and $65,000.
▶ 2:07:19Sen. Mullin: The average employee that has any sense of tenure, once there on probation, is 170 7000, depending on the bonus structure and skill set. Just understand that I'm not trying to get into the negotiations on the labor or anything like that. I want to make sure the record is straight on that. Mr. o'brien, I would like to partner with you, because you represent the largest labor force in the country. We have a national security issue right now. That is with shipbuilding.
▶ 2:07:52Sen. Mullin: I don't think there is another person that can speak on labor statistics with more labor authority then you. We need help with labor force and we need to be focused on national security for should be and we need to enter into a public-private partnership. We have shipyards that are vacant that used to build ships. A lot of it has been shut down because of very liberal states, for instance like california.
▶ 2:08:21Sen. Mullin: We feel like the labor could help us get those ship law -- shipyards back up and running. But we need the labor to do it too. Not only do we need help putting pressure on states to get the shipyards back up and working, but we also need help within stacking them. The skilled labor that unions can bring, especially to shipyards. Know their place, we can find. There is not a workforce like that, but we also need the contracts in place that look at it from a national security perspective.
▶ 2:08:53Sen. Mullin: While we have worked together on several issues since the last time we talked I would love to dig down on this issue with you more and figure out how we can do something great for not just the workers, but for our nation too.
▶ 2:09:05Mr. O'Brien: It is a great segue into a conversation about bringing industry back into the united states, and I think ship living at one point in time was a great economic generator for this country.
▶ 2:09:20Mr. O'Brien: It provided great futures for families, and I think if you ask the majority of people that once came from that industry or generation or were connected to that industry, it is a very noble profession and I agree with you. We should be building ships in the united states to avoid any type of breach of security issues in this country. I said on the port authority board, longest-sitting member.
▶ 2:09:49Mr. O'Brien: I have negotiated the expansion of ports and businesses on those ports. I would welcome a conversation on how we train this next generation of workers to build the best ships in the world.
▶ 2:10:02Sen. Mullin: Soup the last time I ask you to stand up, I'm going to ask you to stand up, shake hands, and we will agree.
▶ 2:10:09Mr. O'Brien: I'm not a hugger, but I will shake your hand. [laughter]
▶ 2:10:16Sen. Mullin: Fair enough. Thank you.
▶ 2:10:19Chair Cassidy: Senator banks is on his way. I had a couple of questions. I asked for consent to enter studies into the record pertaining to the issues discussed today from the national federation of independent business, the national association will sell distributors, the mercator center, the policy association, the national retail federation, the coalition for a democratic work ways, and the associated builders and contractors. Without objection there entered into the record.
▶ 2:10:48Chair Cassidy: Next I will ask a couple more questions of you, Mr. kaplan. The proactive -- pro act and faster labor contracts act identify contracts as a key issue. These builds seek mediation and arbitration through the federal mediation and consolation service. Do you agree with this approach?
▶ 2:11:14Chair Cassidy: Why does the national labor relations act currently rely instead upon voluntary agreements between unions and employers?
▶ 2:11:21Mr. Kaplan: Thank you. I think it is inherent in the act that the employees are choosing who is going to represent them and make decisions for them. It is not a third party. Employees choose who represent them in these negotiations. The same thing with the employer. The employer chooses their terms.
▶ 2:11:44Mr. Kaplan: They are in the best knowledge to make decisions regarding what they can afford, what is best for the economy, and what is best for their business. If mcs -- I would start by saying, I don't know if they have the personnel that would be necessary to meet these demands.
▶ 2:12:02Mr. Kaplan: Further, there has been a number of individuals that have expressed concern with putting a government in charge of determining the terms of the collective bargaining agreement and have raised serious questions about the constitutionality of directing terms in a collective bargaining agreement, such as has been talked about here, posting a notice in the workplace as possibly running afoul of the takings clause, imitations on what employers can say, which is a violation of the constitutional freedom of
▶ 2:12:32Mr. Kaplan: Speech, etc. While not an expert in constitutional law, my time on the board a number of cases only highlighted for me the care we should take when we start embarking on things that could potentially raise constitutional or legal issues in that is -- those areas.
▶ 2:12:52Chair Cassidy: Is there any provision to give workers the opportunity to review or reject a contract they do not want?
▶ 2:12:58Mr. Kaplan: There is not.
▶ 2:13:00Chair Cassidy: Ok. Senator markey.
▶ 2:13:04Sen. Markey: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Mr. president, as you well know, in the applying pursuit of profit amazon has perfected a punishing quota system that pushes workers to and beyond their physical limits. The use dystopian surveillance technology to monitor workers' every move.
▶ 2:13:29Sen. Markey: The set requirements for how money packages workers have to move per hour without telling workers what those requirements are. They picked workers against each other in a race against a visible clock, and then they fire workers who failed to win their impossible game. These high-tech quota systems are shrouded in secrecy and enforced putatively, creating a culture of fear that leads workers to break their own backs to try to keep their paycheck.
▶ 2:14:00Sen. Markey: Make grants. Put food on the table. Or to fill a prescription. We know the corporate bosses will never police corporate greed, and that is why I come along with teamsters and senator hawley and labor unions and workers across the country, or championing a bipartisan warehouse worker protection act. That worker protection act would ban the most dangerous quotas that plague warehouses.
▶ 2:14:27Sen. Markey: It would require transparency for workers and those companies that used to comply allows the department of labor to hold companies to accountability with investigations and substantial penalties. In short, the warehouse worker protection act says that injuries are not just the cost of doing business. The cost of doing business in this country is guaranteeing worker safety. Worker dignity.
▶ 2:14:53Sen. Markey: Store brian, what are you seeing in amazon warehouses related to speed on mcleod's, technology, and health and safety and their impact on workers?
▶ 2:15:02Mr. O'Brien: I applaud the bipartisan effort to make sure our warehouse workers, whether they are unionized or non-unionized, or able to obtain activity standards, achieve health in the workplace. What do I see at amazon? I stated this early.
▶ 2:15:20Mr. O'Brien: I see a 150 percent turnover ratio because the quotas, which are not transparent, and equally implemented across the board, is promoting a workforce that is recycling continuously. There is no continuity in the workforce. They have the highest injury rates, highest violations at osha. I think it is important to recognize not just at amazon, but in the warehouse industry as a whole, we've got to not forget probably the most difficult times this country ever faced was during covid.
▶ 2:15:53Mr. O'Brien: During covid I represented many, many workers who worked in the warehouse industry who worked with total disregard, who were deemed essential, just like the amazon workers, like the ups workers, and many other grocery warehouse workers that were deemed essential workers. They went to work everyday and provided goods and services to this country, with total disregard for the health and safety of themselves and their families.
▶ 2:16:18Mr. O'Brien: We cannot neglect the fact that they need to be protected not just during covid, but beyond covid. I think it is important to recognize that we have a company that does the same work under contract. Through a collective bargaining agreement we negotiate terms and conditions, negotiate safety, negotiate product -- productivity standards.
▶ 2:16:46Mr. O'Brien: If you look at the comparison to a unionized workforce that does the same work as amazon, as ups, you will see that when there is not transparency in any industry, especially productivity standards, there's going to be higher interest -- injury rates and not consistency in the workforce.
▶ 2:17:03Sen. Markey: Thank you, Mr. president. My father was a union leader. He lost a finger in a warehouse when he was a young man. He fought osha. He used another finger to describe that company in regards to its safety, but that is what is happening now with ai. The very humanity of these workers. It is being lost and we have to make sure we get some protection. Thank you for your work on it.
▶ 2:17:33Sen. Markey: Mr. cochran, the warehouse industry is leading the pack on supercharged injury rates and works be quotas, but corporate greed does not discriminate. Auto industry bosses also pad their own pockets. What do you and your coworkers experience in chattanooga?
▶ 2:17:49Mr. Cochran: Thank you for the question. As far as dignity in the workplace, we actually ask them to sign a thing saying every worker has dignity and all of this stuff. They refused to even sign the memorandum of understanding about that. What we struggle with mostly is about bathroom breaks. We have 10 minutes to use the bathroom every two hours. Not everybody has to go to the bathroom at the same time. It is very seldom they get relief from the line to go do this.
▶ 2:18:18Mr. Cochran: He had an incident where one of our members relieved himself on themselves while on the production line. Then they were refused to go clean up. You have to wait until your break time, lunch, whatever it is. It is extreme, but year after year we have talked to volkswagen about this topic and it is still a topic of concern while -- while we are going through bargaining. It should not be allowed to come to our country and just break our labor laws and treat our people the way they do. It is unfair to the workers.
▶ 2:18:48Sen. Markey: Thank you from what the uaw is doing. Thank you for what the teamsters are doing. Thank you. Mr. jim? >> high-yield five minutes to myself or questions. Mr. o'brien, you wrote an op-ed in january about how some companies abused the h-1b visa program. I want to read part of it.
▶ 2:19:11Sen. Markey: You wrote that "not content with shipping jobs to india or china, corporatists have found a way to control their subjects in america. H-1b is a way for employers to hurt the american workforce and make foreign workers there -- their srefs. -- serfs.
▶ 2:19:34Mr. O'Brien: The hb one visas were supposed to be used to hire foreign workers with very unique skills that cannot be found in the U.S. like anything else, you know, those employers expanded the programs and started expanding that to workers from distressed countries, bringing them over, paying them far less, and exploiting them. That was not the intent.
▶ 2:20:01Mr. O'Brien: The intent was to bring workers over here that had a unique skill set that could be utilized at the end of certain circumstances. We have even seen in some cases where employers have brought these folks over from foreign countries, with no unique skill set, but they taught them english. And that is not part of the program. That is not the way the program should be.
▶ 2:20:29Mr. O'Brien: Employers should be mandated to invest in american workers, and if the skills are not here, allow the opportunity for people to come over for a short period of time and teach those skills to our workers. The thing that is missing in this conversation. And I am a product of immigration. I think almost all of us are. I embrace immigrant workers.
▶ 2:20:49Mr. O'Brien: But the reality of it, you keep -- the burden keeps getting pushed on the workers come on the unions that represent undocumented workers or the unions that represent illegal aliens or however they are classified. But there is no discussion and/or consequences for the employers that hire and exploit these workers. That is the troubling part for people like myself.
▶ 2:21:14Sen. Banks: You titled your op-ed, why h-1b is wrong for american workers. I want to talk more about that. And ask you, why is the h-1b visa system wrong for our american workers and what should we do about it?
▶ 2:21:29Mr. O'Brien: Have such a talent pool in this country and we should be utilizing and investing in that talent pool and train americans to do these jobs. It is unfortunate, and I read this the other day, and it caught my eye. We are american. And in too many situations we are a mirror -- ameri-can's.
▶ 2:21:58Mr. O'Brien: We bring people over to do jobs that we have plenty of people that are qualified to do for higher wages and better benefits.
▶ 2:22:04Sen. Banks: Totally agree. I just introduced legislation to reform the program. H-1b visas were supposed to only be for the best and brightest foreign workers, and high skilled occupations. When american workers are not available first. Here are some of the recent visas granted in the last four years. A landscape architect with a salary of $36,000. That was one of them. A squash professional.
▶ 2:22:35Sen. Banks: With a salary of $50,000. A substitute teacher with a salary of $20,000. How can we work together to stop h-1b visas from being used to replace american workers?
▶ 2:22:48Mr. O'Brien: I think we got to hold these employers accountable and make certain that there are stiff penalties for the exploitation and the communal, pandemic in the situation of l ie-abetes, and they are not telling the truth. We have the best colleges in the world in this country. Used the example of a substitute teacher, $20,000 a year.
▶ 2:23:15Mr. O'Brien: We don't have people coming in colleges and universities that are qualified to teach.
▶ 2:23:21Sen. Banks: Sen. banks: we obviously do. The h-1b visa is not this -- the only story. Workers are here via the optional training program, which does not have caps on limits. What more needs to be done to reform the system so our american workers like your members come first?
▶ 2:23:39Mr. O'Brien: It's got to be full transparency and accountability for those programs. If, like anything else of people not being held accountable and there is no checks and balances in place, they are only going to get away with what they are allowed to get away with.
▶ 2:23:52Sen. Banks: Totally agree with that. I appreciate all of you being here. For any senator wishing to ask additional questions, questions for the record will be due at 5:00 p.m. On thursday, october 23. Thank you to all of our witnesses for your testimony today. The committee stands adjourned.