▶ 0:17:59Sen. Rosen: Thank you, chairman rounds. I have a very short opening remark so I will read those and get right to it. This hearing is important. I appreciate away the chairman and I work together. Hearing from all of you about the department of defense or cyber first generation plan, the associated implementation plan.
▶ 0:18:23Sen. Rosen: And for the witnesses here, thank you for your service and your commitment because now more than ever come of the united states needs a cyber workforce equipped with acumen, expertise to defend our networks, exit operations and rapidly is not a fast enough word to describe it, a rapidly changing battle space to achieve our objectives. I would point out the new national defense strategy publicly released on friday only mentioned cyber in three places.
▶ 0:18:56Sen. Rosen: Cyber is everywhere. I am surprised at how emphasis has been placed on cyber compared to other capabilities. It does not engender much confidence that cyber is being treated with the necessary urgency, priority by this administration that I think we all would agree we need. The department of defense must take swift action to develop programs and enable our cyber war fighters to increase cyber domain mastery and operational readiness.
▶ 0:19:24Sen. Rosen: It is critical to promote still dazed training across all of our services. We need a sustainable talent pipeline and I know you will talk about that. We need effective initiatives for retention. Because in an era of persistent cyber threats, foreign adversaries like china and russia and iran are probing, testing, challenging our systems I will say by the nano second. Not even enough to say daily. Every single second.
▶ 0:19:56Sen. Rosen: They are seeking every opportunity they can to degrade our command control, disrupt our operations, steal our most sensitive information, and they are using sophisticated cyber tactics to disrupt military operations, spreading dangerous propaganda to american citizens, and denying access to lifesaving goods. Some advancements in artificial intelligence by our adversaries of course heighten the sense of urgency we must all feel right now.
▶ 0:20:22Sen. Rosen: We must have to protect against ai orchestrated campaigns aimed at targeting us, our critical infrastructure, our supply chains, and we cannot defend against these disturbing yet real threats without cyber professionals every step along the way armed with the requisite skills and abilities to bolster the cyber enterprise. And so for too long the approach to manning, training, equipping our cyber forces just lagged behind and we really need to step that up in my opinion.
▶ 0:20:54Sen. Rosen: The affirmative defense, we know we continue to struggle with recruitment, retaining cyber talent, particularly against such a competitive private sector. So this issue undermines our readiness across all domains. It is a priority of this subcommittee and the committee at large to help the department do everything that we can to fix it because we can't fight today's digital wars without the outdated infrastructure, without
▶ 0:21:26Sen. Rosen: Inflexible personnel structures. We need a skilled professional cyber security force. It is not a luxury. It is a foundational requirement for all of us. I am committed to work together in a bipartisan way on this committee, on the full committee, with all of you, to be sure that we have the cyber force of the future that we need and will continue to need going forward. Thank you again for your work and for being here. Mr. chairman, thank you.
▶ 0:21:55Chair Rounds: Thank you. [no audio]
▶ 0:22:27Chair Rounds: >> thank you. Chairman rounds, wrecking member rosen, and distinguished members of the committee, it is an honor to appear before you today. As you mentioned, it is really quite privileged to be on the side of the table, representing the department and all of the efforts we are tackling that senator rosen highlighted in her remarks.
▶ 0:22:51Chair Rounds: I am grateful for the opportunity today in particular to discuss the deferment of war's competitive efforts to organize, train, and equip our cyber forces to meet the complex challenges the nation faces in the 21st century. The subject of today's hearing, cyber command 2.0, represents what the secretary of war, secretary hegseth, mentioned at the reagan defense forum, the most significant transfer mission of U.S. cyber command since its inception 15 years ago.
▶ 0:23:18Chair Rounds: This initiative is the cornerstone of our effort to ensure american dominance in a rapidly evolving cyberspace domain, meeting the president's clear mission to the department of war, achieving peace through strength. Cyber command 2.0 is only one of the key initiatives we are working to maximize our cyber forces. We are also working to validate and if necessary update our force design and force employment to make sure we are able to achieve the maximum outcomes.
▶ 0:23:47Chair Rounds: For many years, the department has recognized that our approach to building and sustaining cyber talent was not keeping pace. Our adversaries are investing heavily in cyber while we have been constrained by traditional fourth-generation models, which while effective for conventional forces failed to fully address the unique requirements of cyberspace operations.
▶ 0:24:08Chair Rounds: This has created significant challenges in recruiting the right people, retaining our best operators and providing the agile specialized training needed to win. I legacy fourth-generation model is inconsistent, hindering our ability to adapt at speed and scale to counter threats and quickly integrate emerging technologies like artificial intelligence.
▶ 0:24:39Chair Rounds: To address these systematic challenges head-on, the secretary of war approved cyber command 2.0, a fundamental reimagining of how we build and manage our cyber forces. At its core, cyber demand 2.0 is founded on three essential fundamental pillars. The first of those is domain mastery.
▶ 0:25:04Chair Rounds: We are shifting from a compliance-based paradigm to one that fosters deep career long expertise. Our goal is to cultivate a cadre of cyber personnel who achieve through mastery -- through mastery through operations rather than cyber -- the cyber domain is not one-size-fits-all, secondly.
▶ 0:25:25Chair Rounds: Cyber command 2.0 establish his dedicated pathways for personnel to become deep experts in fields like industrial control systems or space asset protection number resulting in specialized units aligned our most critical missions. And third is agility. The cyber threat landscape evolves with unparalleled speed. We require a force that can adapt and employ new technology just as quickly.
▶ 0:25:50Chair Rounds: This model allows for dynamic allocation of talent, ensuring we maintain a proactive posture against the most pressing threats. To bring these pillars to live, we are bringing seven core attributes. The first is targeted recruiting and assessment. We are shifting to talent targeted acquisition using validated instruments like a cyber assessment battery to identify individuals with the inherent aptitude and suitability for cyber warfare.
▶ 0:26:23Chair Rounds: Second, our incentives for recruiting and retention. To remain competitive, we must temperament robust retention pay and incentive bonuses and will sustain this across all services. Third is tailored and agile training. Two advanced cyber training and education center, we will focus mission specific skills in demand, ensuring our forces remain ahead of technological advancements and adversary tactics. Fourth, tailored assignment management.
▶ 0:26:51Chair Rounds: We are engaging career pathways -- sorry, we are engineering career pathways that enabled sustained operator engagement, allowing operators to build a comprehensive portfolio of tailored experience rather than being forced to move on after a single tour. This approach maintains domain mastery in the cyber force while also providing greater operational effectiveness when war fighters returned to their services and apply their developed talent to service mission sets.
▶ 0:27:21Chair Rounds: Fifth is specialized mission sets. We are developing dedicated units and experts focused on highly specialized missions such as protection space asset or the defense of critical infrastructure, making them the world's leading authorities in their fields.
▶ 0:27:39Chair Rounds: Six is integrated headquarter and combat support, ensuring they have the leadership and resources needed to execute their missions without the distractions they have today. Last is optimized unit facing. To prevent burnout and sustained readiness, we are instituting a unit facing model that creates sustainable operational tempo, keeping our personal focused and effective for the long haul.
▶ 0:28:07Chair Rounds: While each one of these attributes offers merit, the true power lies in their synergy, creating an accident effect on our ability to generate and sustain cyber talent across the entire talent management lifecycle. These efforts are driven by the creation of three enabler organizations within cyber command that general hartman will talk about in his speech. As directed by the secretary of war, I will oversee the cyber command 2.0 and petition consisting of 97 tasks across 26 lines of effort.
▶ 0:28:38Chair Rounds: This revised force generation model empowers the commander of U.S. cyber command to directly influence however forces are manned, trained, and equipped to deliver immediate war fighter outcomes while preserving decisions based on future organizational constructs. The court at a bit of mastery, specialization, -- cyber command 2.0 provides cyber warriors with the careers, talent, and support they deserve.
▶ 0:29:09Chair Rounds: In addition to cyber command 2.0, the department is undertaking several initiatives to enhance our war fighting capabilities in the cyber domain. They include the validating and updating of our cyber force design, developing a forced entry's maximum lethality and operational outcomes. And partly, cyber command 2.0's purpose extends beyond the cyber domain. It is a critical joint force capably that must be integrated across all war fighting domains.
▶ 0:29:37Chair Rounds: This sends a clear message to our adversaries. The united states is all in on achieving and maintaining cyber superiority and support of our national interests. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I look forward to continuing to working closely with the subcommittee on this critical national security priority, and I welcome any questions that you have.
▶ 0:29:57Chair Rounds: Thank you, and I appreciate your comments, secretary sutton. General hartman, welcome. As you get started, I want to personally say, thank you for your dedicated service to our country and everything that you have done to forward our security through implementation of these types of policies in the cyber domain. I appreciate that. Thank you, sir. Go ahead with your statement, please.
▶ 0:30:23Lt. Gen. Hartman: Thank you. Chairman rounds, ranking member rosen, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss the future of our nation's cyber force. Thank you specifically for the requirements in section 1533 with the fiscal year 23 fdaa that brings us here today.
▶ 0:30:44Lt. Gen. Hartman: It was approved by the department is fundamental to a more lethal, agile, and enduring cyber force capable of deterring and if necessary defeating our adversaries in cyberspace. Cyber calm 2.0 fixes many of the issues facing our servicemembers. This is a significant upgrade and how we man, train, and equip the world's best cyber force. Since the standup of U.S.
▶ 0:31:10Lt. Gen. Hartman: Cyber command, we have had challenges manning cyber force and ensuring we had viable cyber center career models across all services. We face many challenges ranging from duplicate of training, uncompetitive and inconsistent compensation, excessive administrative burdens come at a high operational tempo that contributes to unsustainable stress on the force.
▶ 0:31:32Lt. Gen. Hartman: Cyber comm 2.0 targets of these through seven key deliverables that overhaul how the affirmative work sustains lethal war fighters. These include overhauls in targeted recruiting, modernized incentives, specialized mission teams, and optimized operation tempos. This plan gives us what we need.
▶ 0:31:55Lt. Gen. Hartman: It forges cyber warriors by building upon the war fighting culture and lethal capabilities of the military departments, harnessing the institutional sustained warfare, their capacity for precise global operations, and their core competency and agile power projection in denied environments. To lead this effort, I have established three key enabling organizations.
▶ 0:32:22Lt. Gen. Hartman: The cyber talent management organization is developing the cyber assessment battery test to better align incoming talent to ensure we retain high-end war fighters. We are using our title x section authorities to budget for standard skills pay that will next focus on retention incentives.
▶ 0:32:40Lt. Gen. Hartman: The advanced cyber training and education center is tailoring training to specialized mission needs while eliminating training redundancy in areas like artificial intelligence, expeditionary fiber, and advanced tradecraft. I would cyber patient workers and it will rapidly and game changing tradecraft. We will build cap abilities we need for the future, not focused on past requirements.
▶ 0:33:10Lt. Gen. Hartman: This center will serve as the central point of collaboration for industry, academia, government partners, and the cyber operating force. These enabling organizations are being designed to be ai by birth, built to be automated and decision optimized. This means that data will be treated as a strategic asset, workflows are engineered for automation, artificial intelligence is embedded into planning, operations, and sustainment, not bolted on later.
▶ 0:33:42Lt. Gen. Hartman: Artificial intelligence is no longer a future concept. It is an operational capability we are integrating today in line with our cyber command 2.0 vision. We are transferring how the command is organized, enabled, and resourced to operate at the speed and skill required in the cyber domain. We are fundamentally changing how we bring technology into the fight rather than relying on long bespoke government development cycles.
▶ 0:34:08Lt. Gen. Hartman: We are aggressively leveraging commercial proven ai technologies, the same systems driving productivity, analytics, and automation across the global economy, and rapidly adapting them for military use while also building classified and mission specific capabilities internally when required. This industry first approach allows us to move at the pace of relevance.
▶ 0:34:31Lt. Gen. Hartman: It enables continuous innovation, rapid upgrades, and alignment with the global ai innovation ecosystem, which no single government entity can replicate on its own. In a domain where our adversaries are already exploiting automation, machine learning, and large-scale data analytics, speed is not a luxury. Itis a necessity -- luxury, it is a necessity. We are operating ai permission outcomes.
▶ 0:34:56Lt. Gen. Hartman: Today, ai is being used to attenuate cyber threat detection and response, prioritizing and automating action across large networks, improve operational planning, targeting, and operations, and reducing analyst workloads so human expertise is focused on the highest value decisions. These are not experiments. These are capabilities already being delivered across the force. Because getting this right is so critical, we have aligned our chief ai officers indirect report to me.
▶ 0:35:26Lt. Gen. Hartman: This ensures ai data architecture and operational design are integrated from day one rather than competing for authority after the fact. Cyber command 2.0 strengthens our integration with other combatant commands like building more proficient cyber forces, we provide more lethal and capable support to the joint force.
▶ 0:35:47Lt. Gen. Hartman: When cyber operators are expertly matched to their roles and receive cutting edge training, and are freed from administered burdens to focus on the fight, there operational effectiveness increases exponentially. This enhanced capability directly translates to delivering decisive outcomes for cyber comm and other combatant commanders at the timing and tempo our senior leaders require. In closing, I want to reiterate my appreciation for congress's support.
▶ 0:36:16Lt. Gen. Hartman: Changes to our budget and acquisition authorities as well as the fy 23 section 1533 provided us their tools and a clear mandate implement solutions across the cyber force. We are using those authorities to implement cyber comm 2.0. Iss implement and cyber comm 2.0 is the best path -- implementing cyber comm 2.0 is the best path to support the joint force in crisis and conflict.
▶ 0:36:42Lt. Gen. Hartman: The secretary's direction is clear, and we have buy-in and participation with services. Many, we are leveraging the army model for proficiency pay and the navy is implement clear progression for the maritime cyber warfare officers. The investment in providing flexible authorities with the full spectrum is what will allow us to move fast, stay secure, and maintain our advantage.
▶ 0:37:11Lt. Gen. Hartman: The success of this endeavor will depend on continued partnership with congress and the department to ensure adequate oversight and sustained funding to implement these necessary changes and maintain the world's premier cyber force. This is how we ensure american innovation remains decisive in cyberspace. Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:37:28Chair Rounds: Thank you, general hartman. General messer, thank you, welcome. Appreciate your service to our country command with your statement, let's proceed.
▶ 0:37:38Brig. Gen. Messer: Chairman rounds, making member rosen, distinction members of the subcommittee met thank you for the opportunity to join this hearing and speak to the importance of cyberspace as an integral part of joint domain military operations. Joint operations are reliant on operators who are masters of their craft. For example, an aviation strike operation requires aircrew who are exceptionally skilled in the area of refueling, innocent control, area warfare, and strike warfare.
▶ 0:38:09Brig. Gen. Messer: It takes years of specialized training to build a team who can succeed in such mission areas. The same is true for our cyber operations. At the same time, the demand for cyber forces across the joint force is steadily rising. As you will hear, the combatant commander postures statements -- our adversaries are using the domain for multifaceted campaigns to degrade U.S. and allied interests.
▶ 0:38:35Brig. Gen. Messer: It has been emphasized that defensive cyber operations as the joint force's first line of defense in their theater. It was highlighted that cyber espionage is a vector for both intelligence gathering and persuading audience against U.S. interests in their theater. Amid these threats, the demand for cyber capabilities is at an all-time high. Threats in cyberspace are currently growing faster than we can scale our actions.
▶ 0:39:03Brig. Gen. Messer: The size of the existing cyber mission force requires us to prioritize some efforts and take risk in others, which could delay our response to meeting emerging threats. For all military operations, actions in cyberspace are playing an increasingly important role. That includes operations where the cyber element may not be self-evident.
▶ 0:39:25Brig. Gen. Messer: Whether protecting our forces from harm, complementing kinetic action, imposing costs on adversaries, or defending friendly infrastructure cyberspace operations are critical to the successful employment of the joint force. To succeed, we must be proactive, not reactive. Cyber activities must be integrated into every phase of operations, starting with content development.
▶ 0:39:50Brig. Gen. Messer: Military operations every domain require specialists just as specialized aircrew support every air operation, specialized cyber operators are essential to ensure U.S. dominance in cyber in all domain operations. Cyber comm 2.0 will help us combat the adversaries's ability to mass forces with domain mastery and advanced tools extracting the greatest value from the force that we have.
▶ 0:40:17Brig. Gen. Messer: Training experience, tools, and resourcing give our operators what they need to prevail in this dynamic domain. On behalf of the men and women of the joint force, we appreciate your support for the cyber mission force and for this vital initiative. With that, we will open it for questions.
▶ 0:40:34Chair Rounds: Thank you, general messer. To begin with, we are in open session right now so we have an opportunity to not only ask questions but to help educate as well. Five domains. Air, land, sea, space, and cyberspace. It appears there will never be another kinetic activity that goes on in terms of our department of defense or department of war without having some cyber activity to the left of it.
▶ 0:41:05Chair Rounds: Basically, to make the field of battle a little bit safer for our young men and women. But in order to do that, it has to be integrated and a part of the larger force. And in order to make that happen, you need professionals that clearly understand their role. That is a lot about what this discussion today is about. It is about the cyber force itself and how they actually provide the needed services to the different commanders, combatant commanders that we lay out throughout the world.
▶ 0:41:37Chair Rounds: In order to do that, we need to make sure that the cyber operations can be integrated as quickly and as efficiently as possible. Miss sutton, part of the cyber comm 2.0 initiative recommends maturing the assistant secretary defense works for cyber policy position to meet the demands of executing section 167b authority for cyberspace operations peculiar activities.
▶ 0:42:09Chair Rounds: I just want you to describe what that maturation might look like in practice. Specifically, how would it enhance assistant secretary of defense for cyber policy? How would that office support the force generation objectives outlined in cyber comm 2.0? And what additional responsibilities or authorities would be necessary to effectively execute this expanded role?
▶ 0:42:36Chair Rounds: In other words, what specific resourcing would be required to enable that maturity of the asd cyber policy office? You are new in the role but you have a great deal of experience in the cyber domain and what we have done within the national defense authorization act in the past. Your thoughts, please.
▶ 0:42:55Ms. Sutton: Senator rounds, thank you for that really important question. So as you mentioned, one of my top priorities going forward and what I think is one of the key responsibilities of my office is to make sure that cyber is integrated in multi-domain operations.
▶ 0:43:13Ms. Sutton: And so having this role be fundamental and be embedded within the undersecretary of policies organization allows that to happen on a daily basis to bring the cyber domain to all of the policy discussions happening more broadly. I think historically we have seen cyber treated with a stovepipe where the cyber people go up and talk about the cyber domain and do their thing in a silo and in a vacuum.
▶ 0:43:41Ms. Sutton: Iac one of the primary roles of my -- I see one of the primary roles of my office and my role to be an advisor to the secretary is to be that coordinating function across the department, to really bring cyber to all of the other domains of war fighting, to coordinate across the services, and to look for opportunities where resourcing is needed and where we need to really focus the department's efforts to
▶ 0:44:12Ms. Sutton: Achieve these outcomes that are going to be critical for all future conflicts going forward.
▶ 0:44:14Chair Rounds: Thank you. Just to make sure all of our members get an opportunity to speak, and we will do several rounds of questions, I will defer right now to senator rosen.
▶ 0:44:26Sen. Rosen: I am going to defer to senator gillibrand because we are here the whole time and everyone has a lot of humans going on, so senator gillibrand, you are recognized.
▶ 0:44:36Sen. Gillibrand: Thank you, Mr. chairman. Thank you madam vice chairman. General hartman, since the fiscal year 2017 ndaa, cyber comm has had the authority, conducting specialized courses of instruction, monitoring, promotion of cyber operation forces, coordinating with military departments regarding retaining, training. Command has been the joint force trainer for almost as long.
▶ 0:45:06Sen. Gillibrand: Much of cyber comm 2.0 appears to be tinkering with this space rather than fundamental reimagining. Can you speak to why the command did not take these steps before and why you believe this is a dramatic transformation?
▶ 0:45:21Lt. Gen. Hartman: Senator, thanks for your questions. As you point out, in 2017 we were given certain authorities. What we did not have control of at the time was the funding, senator. And so as you are aware, in 2023, we were given enhanced budget control. There were a series of issues that actually caused us to not receive that control of that funding until 2024.
▶ 0:45:50Lt. Gen. Hartman: And so when we had some authority, we have no enforcement mechanisms. And we have started to execute those enforcement mechanisms, and we have seen benefit from that. Senator, cyber comm 2.0 does not intend to totally reinvent how we train the force, but what it does intend to do is make sure that the services are held to the standard of 1000 level training. The cyber calm the cyber caomm j7 will continue to execute training.
▶ 0:46:19Lt. Gen. Hartman: Some basic training by the services, qualification through cyber comm, which we made a lot of progress on the last two years. And what cyber comm 2.0 is really going to bring is advanced and specialized training weaving at the pace of industry. It is really required that will allow us to both compete and really plan to outpace china. That is the contract we are playing out.
▶ 0:46:42Sen. Gillibrand: Thank you. Secretary sutton, while the space says cyber is important, it is not a priority to any of them. The services are notoriously protective of their control over the recruiting, retention, and talent management. How will your office hold services accountable and ensure they do not steamroll cyber comm on career and talent management?
▶ 0:47:05Sen. Gillibrand: And I will just say that this committee, we have had a hearing after hearing, year after year, and we have drilled down to how many personnel to acting from each service and which services are slower than the other and what level of staff you can acquire, and frankly it is never good enough. So I just really want to know how you intend to succeed.
▶ 0:47:22Ms. Sutton: Senator I appreciate your question and understand the frustration. I think you are really highlighting what is fundamental about cyber command 2.0, which is involvement at the secretary's level to coordinate to make sure services are doing things consistently and we rise everybody to the top bar. We see best practices in pockets across the services but have historically lacked a coherent effort to bring all of those together and rise all levels up.
▶ 0:47:55Ms. Sutton: It is going to require hard discussions. It is going to require prioritization. We have a clear direction from the secretary when he approved this plan about the importance -- secretary of war when he approved this plan about the importance of improving the lithology of our warriors.
▶ 0:48:15Ms. Sutton: I look forward to have those battles within the pentagon because it is fundamental to what we owe our cyber warriors that come to work every day and do this mission, to retain them in ways that allow us to maintain the world's most competitive cyber force.
▶ 0:48:32Sen. Gillibrand: It was just reported that china approved the import of the h200 chips to bytedance, alibaba, and tencent. These companies all work closely with the chinese military, and reports indicated a white house memo raised concerns that alibaba provides support for prc military operations against targets in the U.S.
▶ 0:48:57Sen. Gillibrand: If the sales go through, what impact will the acquisition of h200 h2h200's have?
▶ 0:49:10Lt. Gen. Hartman: Senator, I have not studied that question so I will agree to get back to you.
▶ 0:49:14Sen. Gillibrand: Thank you. My last point, I would like to hear from each of you. I still don't understand why you don't want a cyber academy. I just don't know why you don't want a cyber academy that will train the personnel you need from top to bottom consistently and regularly. We tried to create small pipelines for use of cyber academy for nonmilitary personnel, but I still don't know why you don't want your own.
▶ 0:49:41Sen. Gillibrand: I get why you are going to use existing services and try to do better training. But the future of war is going to be cyber, and I don't know why we are taking so long to do this. And I think also in your testimony you said your goal for -- what is the group? The advanced cyber training education center will be fully operational capable until q3 fiscal year 2031.
▶ 0:50:10Sen. Gillibrand: That is a really long time for any brick-and-mortar. Can you talk about why you don't have this vision and why is it so difficult?
▶ 0:50:18Ms. Sutton: So, really appreciate that question because I think how we get the right training to our people and what courses we have available, like what mechanisms we have, is really important. Really want to highlight the importance in cyber command 2.0 of the tech, the event cyber training education center, and the intent of it is not to be a brick-and-mortar institution because what we see is having an internal developed training system is probably always going to be slowed in need as we look
▶ 0:50:50Ms. Sutton: At the time lines it takes to get basic training updated. We are losing out to the best of breed that is happening in industry and academia so that advanced cyber training education center model is really intended to figure out what our requirements are, where we have skills and key knowledge gaps that we need training on, and then to be able to go out to industry and academia, find the best breed, if it is available out there, bring that income and then we can have standards that we are trained to.
▶ 0:51:19Ms. Sutton: That is really the model we are looking to move out on quickly. The timelines we are talking about are to get it fully up and scaled across the entire force, across an entire curriculum. I will let general hartman talked about some of the early pilots we are aiming to get some quick wins in right off the bat.
▶ 0:51:34Sen. Gillibrand: I just don't -- again, the treatment can take control of this, but honestly, we have been saying this for a decade and it does not work. We don't pay enough to get our salaries are too low. So the benefit that service academies have as it is free college for four years or two years, whatever it is going to be. Kids will choose to do that route because we can compete on that. We cannot compete if -- let's say you set your standard every six months, the perfect person.
▶ 0:52:02Sen. Gillibrand: They will not join you because they are making $400,000 or $600,000 where they are. You are not going to get them. You guys can answer the question if you want, but you can also take the time back if you would like, Mr. chairman.
▶ 0:52:13Chair Rounds: I will allow the question if you got it, and if not, you can bring him back in and respond with a written response. But I am curious to hear what your thoughts are.
▶ 0:52:23Ms. Sutton: Just one thing, and then I will let general hartman also provided his answer. So I am a firm believer in what you mention. I am a scholarship service recipient. My masters degree was funded through government funds with a service obligation. Over 20 years later, I am still in government. I see it is a very powerful recruiting tool and something we are continuing to look to opportunities to continue to leverage.
▶ 0:52:51Lt. Gen. Hartman: Senator, I am not opposed to a joint cyber service training academy. I think there is great merit in that. What I don't think is the best answer right now is to divorce our cyber capability in the department from the services. That is based on everything that we are doing from an operational standpoint.
▶ 0:53:19Lt. Gen. Hartman: If I have to build a cyber plan against an adversary's defense network, the air force as a service brings tremendous capability to me that I do not believe we need to separate. And then the second piece is the advanced cyber training academy.
▶ 0:53:39Lt. Gen. Hartman: What we are trying to do is really mary the training -- marr y the training to the operational elements of the command, so we learned both offensive and defensively that we immediately turn into a training requirement that we train across the force. So each disparate element is not learning every time they get on a keyboard in order to execute operations. We just think it is fundamentally important.
▶ 0:54:07Lt. Gen. Hartman: But there is a huge institutional training requirement. I support your idea.
▶ 0:54:11Chair Rounds: Thank you, senator gillibrand, for the excellent questions. Appreciate that. This sutton and general hartman, you are likely aware of the calls, and this follows the same line for the astonishment of a separate military service dedicated to the cyber domain or a cyber force. Like me, you are no doubt close with and respect many of those who are supportive of a cyber force.
▶ 0:54:38Chair Rounds: What would you say to those national security and cyber experts who are advocating for a separate cyber force? Step right into it. >> you knew he was going to ask that, didn't you?
▶ 0:55:00Ms. Sutton: I appreciate that question. I think this is an important debate for us to be having about the future of the cyber war fighting domain. I think one of the most common misconceptions about cyber force command is it is a debate between cyber comm 2.0 and cyber force and they are actually separate debates that I think both need to be had. And we need to look closely at the pros and cons of both. Cyber command 2.0 is inherently about building a talent model.
▶ 0:55:21Ms. Sutton: It is looking across the entire talent pipeline from when we recruit someone, how we make sure we have the right talent, how we train them, how we retain them, how we build careers for them, how we really build our cyber warriors. We know how to do this. As cyber command has become operational, we have built a set of very capable cyber operators. Now we need to do that at scale and have a system that supports that rather than doing it at an ad hoc method.
▶ 0:55:52Ms. Sutton: And so cyber comm 2.0 is really that talent management model. And we have been very careful as we built that model that it is agnostic to the organizational model and that it would support both the current model where five services present as well as other organization models such as the establishment of a cyber force. So I think they are both really important debates to have, but they are separate debates that we need to make sure we are quickly moving ahead with cyber command 2.0.
▶ 0:56:22Ms. Sutton: We have a lot of work done, and it is required regardless of what model we have. We have to build that talent. So that is our immediate focus, is working on all of these fundamental activities that we are going to need going forward that will enable any future decisions to be made about an organizational change.
▶ 0:56:40Chair Rounds: General hartman?
▶ 0:56:42Lt. Gen. Hartman: Chairman, just would like to add three things to what the honorable Ms. sutton said. Agree with her that this cyber comm 2.0 is certainly important regardless of any future decision. I do believe when we did the analysis for cyber comm 2.0 the timeline was fundamentally important. So we did view this through a 2027 blends. We viewed it through a resourcing lens.
▶ 0:57:09Lt. Gen. Hartman: And through that lens, cyber comm 2.0 provided us the best opportunity in order to build the force that we needed on a 2027 timeline, and I think that is important. But the second piece is I fundamentally believe the ability to integrate across the joint force is best suited to the model that we are developing here in cyber comm 2.0. And that is fundamentally important.
▶ 0:57:39Lt. Gen. Hartman: I did not answer the question you asked earlier, but our ability to integrate not just left of conflict but during a conflict in all phases of the operation just like any other traditional military capability is absolutely essential to us delivering the capability that the nation needs. And I think cyber comm 2.0 is really the best course to do that.
▶ 0:58:01Chair Rounds: I am going to be asking a question a little bit about some of that, we cyber activity that might occur during an operation as well. But I do want to follow with cyber comm 2.0, where does a civilian workforce fit into a cyber comm 2.0 concept?
▶ 0:58:19Ms. Sutton: So the scope of cyber command 2.0 is primarily focused on the cyber mission force and its enabling organizations, headquarters, cyber command headquarters, the joint force cyber headquarters, which is blended workforce of both military and civilian and contractor work roles. So as a result, within cyber command 2.0, the majority of the initiatives do apply to both military and civilian populations.
▶ 0:58:48Ms. Sutton: And we have sort of dedicated lines of effort that also target some things that are unique to both sides. So in short, we are addressing both issues for those elements that support the cyber mission force.
▶ 0:59:02Chair Rounds: Plenty of room for guard unit to continue to participate?
▶ 0:59:06Ms. Sutton: Absolutely. The guard and the reserve will be critical on how we bring in some of that unique talent that has special expertise, and there are specific lines of effort in the implementation plan where we look at how to bring that in as well as there will be a fun mental part of our cross functional team we are building to roll out the implementation.
▶ 0:59:25Chair Rounds: Senator rosen.
▶ 0:59:27Sen. Rosen: Thank you. You actually set me up for my next question. You did not even know. I want to thank you for the test of any so far because cyber is not an add-on or service adjacent anymore. It has to be part of the fabric of everything we do, woven in. Talking about data, I always say data tells a story if you know how to listen to it.
▶ 0:59:49Sen. Rosen: So I hope we can maybe have a hearing to talk about how we think about data and its role in everything that we do going forward. That is a separate issue. But I actually want to talk about the service members to what senator rounds was talking about. So I have two questions for you, general hartman. The first one, can you talk a little bit about how you build a fully qualified cyber operator?
▶ 1:00:18Sen. Rosen: What does a training pipeline look like at service and joint level? What kind of on-the-job experience is required before they can be deemed fully qualified? And how often do they have their benchmarks taken? I guess you can think of it like that.
▶ 1:00:34Lt. Gen. Hartman: Thanks, senator. So each of the services produce a cyber operator, and that is a blanket term. We have a number of different specialties across the force. And then we, cyber comm, supervisor will recall work role training. If you are an operator, you go to a specific training course. If you are another specialty, you would do the same thing.
▶ 1:01:05Lt. Gen. Hartman: We worked through a process that will allow them to meet a series of benchmarks and become fully qualified. Once they become fully qualified, they execute a series of operations and move from basic to journeymen to master level of qualification. Historically, we have not produced a lot of operators at the master level because the training and the certification process has taken too long.
▶ 1:01:32Lt. Gen. Hartman: Part of cyber comm 2.0 is, how do we reduce that training timeline and allow them to focus more on operations, less on qualifications? I think we have over the years reduced that benchmark.
▶ 1:01:50Lt. Gen. Hartman: But you get trained, you get qualified, you execute operations, you become a noncommissioned officer, and then you supervise the next group of people that we are bringing up. It is a process that works, but it does not work fast enough. And that is really the focus of 2.0 and the program.
▶ 1:02:10Sen. Rosen: Thank you. I want to ask a similar question about the skills of our national guard and reserve members. They are not currently tracked, it is my understanding, as the same fidelity as the active force so they will be a critical part to your point of bringing in the public sector. I guess if you will say it that way.
▶ 1:02:33Sen. Rosen: So what specific steps can you talk to be about -- talk to us about how you can ensure guardsmen and reservists with those skills might be doing it in the regular world, there civilian career, how can they be activated for special mission? How are you working with that? Because I think that is a big part of our pipeline and training. Whoever, you both can answer please.
▶ 1:02:56Lt. Gen. Hartman: Thank you, senator. We do have organizations in the national guard that are exemplars that we are really trying to use to leverage across the entire reserve. We have the delaware and the maryland international guard that is part of our cyber national mission force. So one of our most elite organizations really for the last decade. We bring those service members on active duty and they participate as full members of the team.
▶ 1:03:24Lt. Gen. Hartman: To be honest with you, they bring deep expertise because when they are not mobilized, as you might know, they go back to civilian jobs. We have an organization down in texas supporting our air force cyber organization that again provides a significant amount of expertise. We had the same model on the defensive side. What we have to do is scale that across the force. You have to get them all in our readiness tool. And we have to be able to track them just like we are tracking our active duty service members.
▶ 1:03:53Sen. Rosen: Across the country, each state may have one or two that are working in this area in their civilian life. And so, how do we pull them in?
▶ 1:04:03Lt. Gen. Hartman: Senator, that is our plan. We are at relatively early stages as we build this out. That is our intent.
▶ 1:04:12Sen. Rosen: Thank you. Senator.
▶ 1:04:19Chair Rounds: You have gotten off too easy and I will throw you a hard one now. I want you to talk a little bit about successes, and I want to specifically talk venezuela. It has been in the news. A lot of discussion about the fact that this was a good example of what happens when you combine all of the joint forces including cyber operations.
▶ 1:04:40Chair Rounds: Once again, I understand this is unclassified, but there are a lot of folks out there that might have a curiosity about this and may very well want to be part of a team in the future that you are going to have to try to recruit. Can you share with us, and I would open up to anyone else as well here, but can you share with us these types of operations and how this happened?
▶ 1:05:00Chair Rounds: It is not just at the national level or international level or the big picture strategically, but tactically, how critical cyber is when you are doing -- this was a law enforcement operation, but it required the support of the armed forces of the united states. Can you share a little bit about what that meant for the cyber teams involved? No answer is not acceptable.
▶ 1:05:23Brig. Gen. Messer: Senator, thanks for the question. What I probably won't do is go into the specifics of the venezuela operation, but what I will tell you is as has been mentioned by honorable sutton and general hartman, the role that they play as leaders in pushing cyber to the forefront I think is critical.
▶ 1:05:44Brig. Gen. Messer: That is one of the things we have seen from the chairman, his emphasis on not just traditional kinetic effects, but the role non-kinetic effects play in all of our global operations, especially cyber. So, leading up to the events in venezuela over the last six months, we have been developing something new on the joint staff called a non-kinetic effect cell.
▶ 1:06:08Brig. Gen. Messer: This is designed to integrate, coordinate, and synchronize all of our non-kinetics into the planning and then of course the execution of any operation globally. I think it is important to point out that one of the reasons it has been successful is the emphasis the chairman has placed on the role of non-kinetics and in particular cyber. And then the coordination that has continued to grow and mature with cyber comm as we work through various operations around the globe.
▶ 1:06:38Chair Rounds: So in this particular case, not only was there a huge amount of work to be done beforehand, but then it had to be executed at the time as we said, not just on the left side, but during the operation itself.
▶ 1:06:53Chair Rounds: For young men and women that are out there, if they want to be involved in a growing and very exciting field, can you talk a little bit about what that means in terms of why we want these folks to actually be a part of not just the large cyber mission force but actually within their own branches and the need to maintain the continuity and understanding of the big picture by individuals who are back in with their regular units and how that gets integrated in terms of
▶ 1:07:24Chair Rounds: Providing direct assistance on a unit by unit basis? How integrated this is. As a representative of the joint forces come I want to hear you talk about how critical that is.
▶ 1:07:34Brig. Gen. Messer: Yes, so cyber operations are critical to everything we do, whether just day-to-day operations, the functioning of the department of war, or its actual execution and operations. One of the things I will point out is growing up in the air force, there was always a non-kinetic effect cell at an air operations center. And it usually existed back in a back room.
▶ 1:07:57Brig. Gen. Messer: It was a very dark place, and usually we did not ask for many inputs from that team until he wanted to speak of what we called the lightning bolts onto some form of operation. The reality is that we have now pulled cyber operators to the forefront.
▶ 1:08:11Brig. Gen. Messer: So if I were talking to a group of young people who are considering a career and joining general hartman's team over at cyber comm, I would say you are not just going to be integral to every operation we are going to do, but you will be on the forefront of everything we do, both now and in the future.
▶ 1:08:30Chair Rounds: So this just say there is a young man or woman out there and they enjoy the keyboard work and they are fascinated by cyber. They have seen what hackers do. Is there a place for the good guy hackers to be? And how would they be able to let you know they want to go to work for you? What is the best way to get that word out?
▶ 1:08:54Brig. Gen. Messer: Sarah, I think there absolutely would be a role for them to play, and I think the targeted recruiting and assessments that will be a focus of cyber comm 2.0 will open up more of those opportunities to find those unique individuals. I want to see if general hartman wanted to say more about that.
▶ 1:09:12Lt. Gen. Hartman: There is a place for them to go, chairman. Absolutely. Our intent as part of cyber comm 2.0 is if you are a young person, a hacker, you want to come serve your country, when you show up to your recruiting station, we want you to be administered a cyber aptitude test. If you score well on that test, we would like you to be offered a contract to become a cyber operator in whatever your service of choice is, and we would like you to then go through the pipeline and come to cyber comm.
▶ 1:09:43Lt. Gen. Hartman: That is the first way. The second way is we are going to execute an in-service recruiting pilot. So if you are out in another specialty, the same way you might attract a delta force operator in the army, we are also going to give you an aptitude test. If you meet a certain score on that aptitude test, we are going to work with your service to have you moved to the cyber operational force.
▶ 1:10:10Lt. Gen. Hartman: So we believe those two areas are ways we can really attract world-class talent. I do want to go back if you allow me to just address a little bit the question you asked. So I would tell you not just absolute resolve but a midnight hammer and a number of other operations. We have graduated to the point where we are treating a saber capability just like me would a kinetic capability. We are not sprinkling cyber on.
▶ 1:10:38Lt. Gen. Hartman: We are integrating cyber operations into the joint force commander's plan, and we are executing it to achieve specific effects that are ultimately tied to what the commander is trying to achieve. And we are doing it at a repeatable, sustainable manner across a number of different compounds. While we cannot go in detail here, chairman, I would love to get an opportunity to brief you on some level of detail.
▶ 1:11:06Lt. Gen. Hartman: I do believe it is one of the fundamental reasons we created cyber comm, and I do believe we have achieved a certain level of integration that is really important for our nation.
▶ 1:11:15Chair Rounds: Thank you for that, and we will make arrangements to have a classified meeting. We would invite you to come back and share that with the members of the subcommittee. Thank you for that. Senator rosen.
▶ 1:11:24Sen. Rosen: Thank you. I can tell you the young woman who started her career in computer programming in 1980 something, I could not dream of what is happening now and would have been so excited about all the things that you are doing or having even been recruited. None of these things existed in the same way they do now, so I can tell you all of those folks are out there.
▶ 1:11:53Sen. Rosen: Because if the way back clock, if you went back then, it would have been something that excited me, and it still excites me to this day. To think about it, cyber is kinetic capability. It is in the fabric of everything we do. We use every bit of intelligence and capability, and it is really important. I just want to ask, I think the last question I am going to ask is, how do we leverage security automation tools to defend our dod networks?
▶ 1:12:21Sen. Rosen: We are talking a lot about the pipeline. We know we have a lot more to go to recruit and retrain and figure out how we are blending all of this together so it is seamless in the same ways that we do a lot of our intelligence capabilities, right? But I want to just move for a second about security automation tools. General hartman, you have to defend those dod networks. It is fundamental, right?
▶ 1:12:47Sen. Rosen: I had a provision in the cyber defense command to subordinate unified command included in the fy 25 ndaa. It is a structural change that reflects the sophistication of the current threat landscape. So as our adversaries increasingly utilize ai as we talk around the circle about ai to execute cyber attacks at machine speed, the department's ability to maintain real-time visibility across the network is
▶ 1:13:18Sen. Rosen: Being tested like never before. So detecting a vulnerability is only half the battle. Right? You know you have the vulnerability. You have to close the door. It requires a speed that many more process may not be able to achieve -- that a manual process may not be able to achieve.
▶ 1:13:39Sen. Rosen: Can we move to a proactive defense that keeps china, russia, others off of our networks, and how are you for during that how are you factoring in this automation in -- and how are you factoring in this automation in cyber command 2.0?
▶ 1:13:54Lt. Gen. Hartman: Senator, thanks for the question. First of all, thanks for the legislation as it relates to the sub unified command. I assure you general stanton has taken that legislation and is running with it and certainly implementing that.
▶ 1:14:11Lt. Gen. Hartman: The use of our dimension, artificial desk automation, artificial and that the use of automation, artificial intelligence -- the use of automation, artificial intelligence is part of cyber comm 2.0 and our plan for defense. It will not entirely take the human out of the loop but it will identify the most important data that our analysts need to look at in order to best protect our network. We have executed a number of pilots.
▶ 1:14:42Lt. Gen. Hartman: One I think we previously briefed that the army executed. We are looking at scaling that technology, specifically focused about how to find chinese living off the land techniques that we have seen repeatedly used. The bigger piece is closing the loop between what we learn in our offensive capability and what our defensive teams are prepared to defend against.
▶ 1:15:12Lt. Gen. Hartman: Literally in real time, turning around that knowledge so that as we learn more, we use that information to drive our own defense for our networks. Artificial intelligence and automation is 100% part of our plan.
▶ 1:15:28Sen. Rosen: . Thank you. >> one thing I'm excited about was the cyber innovation warfare center, which is looking at how to adapt the innovation that is moving rapidly in this domain particularly ai and automation and how do we operationalize that effectively? So it is not just about acquiring a tool or technology.
▶ 1:15:57Sen. Rosen: There is a lot of nonmaterial aspects that we will need to be successful. How can we train our work force to effectively use that tool? Ai will change and mentally but many of our work roles do, so how do we develop new training modules? What new tactics, techniques and procedures do we need to develop fully leverage these new capabilities?
▶ 1:16:20Sen. Rosen: So the model is to have an innovation warfare center to look at technologies that will have game changing effects in our domain, and the operational in but, which general hartman mentioned, and in the short term look at how we need to address everything we need to adopt the technology, and material and nonmaterial, and the get that into our platforms weekly. It will be our time to industry.
▶ 1:16:49Sen. Rosen: It will tie the operational force to industry to allow this to happen at the speed at which we see capabilities come out.
▶ 1:16:55Sen. Rosen: Thank you for the answer. I think artificial intelligence will potentiate what we can do, do it faster and smarter but it will help us pull it together. Thank you for that. >> general hartman, a follow-up to the response you gave to senator rosen. You said the chinese are living off the land.
▶ 1:17:21Sen. Rosen: Since this is an open meeting and it will be broadcast, can you share what that means for folks who are out there, how that works and what that means?
▶ 1:17:31Lt. Gen. Hartman: It means the chinese have executed a deliberate campaign in order to compromise U.S. networks and they use native commands and features inside those networks to move around to look like legitimate traffic and that makes it difficult for us to find the.
▶ 1:17:50Chair Rounds: Is it fair to say, confirm they would be within our telecommunications systems today?
▶ 1:17:58Lt. Gen. Hartman: We have seen them in telecommunications systems and critical infrastructure. That is the bad news. The good news is that we see them and we report them and execute operations to get them out of those networks. Increasingly, as we build expertise under cyber comm 2.0, it will allow us to do that more effectively.
▶ 1:18:23Chair Rounds: I'm curious, universities across the country, I will use the example in south dakota, dakota state university where we have, they produce perhaps 400 cyber professionals per year. They have jobs before they are out of school. They are in the sioux falls-madison area in south dakota. A lot of them want to be part of providing cyber protections.
▶ 1:18:52Chair Rounds: You have, and you need to be able to do not only cyber protection defensive capabilities for the department of defense programs, but you also do offensive stuff as well and you need tools for both. Can you talk a little bit about what you have for capabilities in terms of getting young people involved in the development of this specific tools?
▶ 1:19:16Chair Rounds: These are tools that are not just traditional tools but ones that have been agentized, using ei as part of the process. Can you talk about the need for that and the availability for young people who want to be involved in this? And, who may not necessarily want to be directly involved full-time, but either through guard units or a civilian contract, and your interest in having them make contact with you along that line?
▶ 1:19:46Lt. Gen. Hartman: Absolutely. In the command, in our service components, each of those organizations have development organizations. And those development organizations work specifically with operational teams in order to produce capabilities. To date, that effort hasn't been as unified as we would like.
▶ 1:20:13Lt. Gen. Hartman: It is one of the key work roles we talk about when honorable sutton talked about see what -- that will be the organization that brings service development units together and ensures they have the best training, they have access to the best development environments, modeling and simulation capabilities. Each of those organizations has military and civilian members.
▶ 1:20:42Lt. Gen. Hartman: There is an opportunity to work there. Our cross reserve component units we partner them from a development standpoint but the latter part is where we really have to move forward with cyber comm 2.0. It is how do we partner with cutting edge, innovative private companies that we can work with to produce capabilities that we need in order to execute operations?
▶ 1:21:09Lt. Gen. Hartman: As I said in my opening statement, it is probably extremely -- not extremely large defense firms, it is smaller organizations often made up of members of the intelligence community and we are working with a number of those organizations now to do that.
▶ 1:21:26Chair Rounds: Thank you.
▶ 1:21:28Sen. Rosen: You need the developers of the software for the end-user. So this is where you are writing application software, where the collaboration between software developers and end users is.
▶ 1:21:43Sen. Rosen: We don't want to give you what you think you need, we want to give you what you actually need so this is where the conversations about creating what you need, and writing that software for you or however that gets done, gives you the tools to let that happen dynamically with giving you the framework and they can in certain particulars -- put in certain particulars. That leads me to the question we always ask. What do you need from us?
▶ 1:22:12Sen. Rosen: You might need new authorities, incentives, incentive payments, rotational programs. Other legislation. Things with the private sector. Expedited clearance perhaps, if you are going to be using folks from the private sector.
▶ 1:22:28Sen. Rosen: So we are going to be working on the nda next year as we speak so as we think about this, off the top of your head, what are some things that will help us with readiness, workforce retention, dryvit sector, what -- private sector, what are the things you need from us?
▶ 1:22:50Ms. Sutton: Start out by saying how grateful we are for the things you have given us. There has been significant focus over the last 5-7 years on additional authorities, additional funding, additional pay and I think the department at this point has a significant obligation to execute all of those and I think we are on a good path to do that. At the moment, we haven't identified any specific authorities that are necessary.
▶ 1:23:19Ms. Sutton: A lot of it is implementing authorities and maturing and leveraging the parties we already have. But I appreciate the offer and intending we will continue to work with you as we work through implementation of cyber comm 2.0 and identify things we need. You will be the first to know and we will gladly get you that information.
▶ 1:23:45Lt. Gen. Hartman: I agree, we appreciate the additional authorities we have been offered and your advocacy for funding. It will be important as we implement 2.0 and as we build out the capabilities we need from an artificial intelligence standpoint.
▶ 1:24:08Lt. Gen. Hartman: I believe there will be a discussion about how to best fund the activation of reserve component forces to ensure we can do that in a sustainable, repeatable manner, that we are able to bring the talent to the active force to execute specific missions. There has been some good use case examples. It is a system that is not optimized and I do think we will work with the department and congress on how we might look to do that better in the future.
▶ 1:24:34Sen. Rosen: Like civilian cyber reserve for example.
▶ 1:24:37Lt. Gen. Hartman: I think that is a great idea, senator.
▶ 1:24:42Sen. Rosen: The general wanted to ask something?
▶ 1:24:45Brig. Gen. Messer: I was going to say thank you for the support . You have been exceptionally supportive. I think it is now time to fulfill cyber comm 2.0; objectives and from there, continued support from congress is much appreciated. As you pointed out, this is part of warfare in the 21st century and will continue to be. Your support and advocacy is tremendous so thank you.
▶ 1:25:15Sen. Rosen: I am thankful for your work and everyone who works with you and I'm grateful to be ranking member hoeven with senator rounds because we just see cyber on this committee. It is a pleasure to be able to think about these things in the way going forward.
▶ 1:25:36Chair Rounds: Thank you. It is bipartisan, and it needs to stay that way. We need to look at how we fully mature this particular protection within this domain. And I appreciate your help and the cooperation with the entire, what members on both sides have done to move this forward as evidenced by the amount we are getting done on the ndaa's over the last couple day -- last couple years.
▶ 1:26:04Chair Rounds: With that, this will come the open portion of today's cybersecurity subcommittee hearing. Questions for the record will be due to the committee within two business days of the conclusion of the hearing and general hartman, I will take you up at some point, we will set aside time for classified hearing to learn more about the processes and procedures that you did use so successfully.
▶ 1:26:30Chair Rounds: Thank you and thank you all for your sacrifice and service for your country. With that, this committee meeting is adjourned.