▶ 0:17:17>> today, we will examine how immigration policy is carried out at the federal, state and local levels in minnesota and across the country. We are going to examine whether failures in coordination or communication contributed to the events that followed. Any time an american citizen is shot in the streets of this country, it's a tragedy. That is true whether the individual is a private citizen exercising their constitutional rights or a law enforcement officer performing official duties. Loss of life demands scrutiny.
▶ 0:17:51In minnesota, sharply conflicting accounts have emerged. We want to get to the truth today. State and local officials tell one story. Federal officials tell another story. Depending on the media source come the public may hear one side. The hearing today though is to evaluate the facts and not to defend any one particular narrative. We will hear from two panels. First, leaders from minnesota will describe conditions on the ground, the level of cooperation with federal authorities and how tensions escalated.
▶ 0:18:19Second, leaders from the cbp and ice will exchange the -- and I.c.e. Will exchange -- we have heard repeated claims that minnesota or minneapolis in particular is a so-called sanctuary jurisdiction. That term is often loosely applied. State and local officials dispute that characterization.
▶ 0:18:51Federal officials cite limits on the cooperation. Not every state operates this way. We don't seem to have this tension between state and federal governments and other states. We need to understand what cooperation actually looks like in minnesota and how it can be better. We need to look at where communication has failed and we need to determine whether this was a failure of policy, coordination or leadership on one side or both sides.
▶ 0:19:15In a free society, filming government officials in public is a constitutional right and not an act of aggression. Americans are led to believe, excuse me in the back. Americans are led to believe that exercising the right of being there, protesting should not place them at the risk of lethal force. And if it does, public trust collapses.
▶ 0:19:42At the same time, federal officials made public statements implying that firearms are prohibited at protest. Those statements were later clarified that they were erroneous and not helpful. The first and second amendment are not suspended during periods of unrest. When officials speak imprecisely or rationally about constitutional limits, especially in volatile moments, they risk inflaming the situation rather than stabilizing it.
▶ 0:20:14Law enforcement officers perform difficult and dangerous work. The vast majority do so honorably. When a shooting occurs, the proper response is not to dismiss concerns or rush to judgment. Traditionally, the officers are removed from the line. Even in just about shootings or shootings where they have been shot at multiple times, wounded, the officers are typically removed from the investigation because we think lethal force is such a thing that should be controlled and restricted that we always investigate it.
▶ 0:20:45That's what needed to happen here and should happen. The process protects both the public and the law enforcement officers. What we most avoid is declaring nothing to see hear or rushing to label a U.S. citizen a domestic terrorist before the evidence is established, undermining trust and escalating already volatile situations.
▶ 0:21:08Chair Paul: Both parties have weaponized the term domestic terrorist to target those with opposing views. It needs to end. Many americans have seen the videos. Many have seen an individual retreating. Many see someone attempting to assist a woman on the ground before being seized from behind. Reasonable people may disagree about those videos. But the truth must be determined by evidence. Not narrative. I support immigration customs enforcement.
▶ 0:21:38Chair Paul: I believe dangerous criminals should be removed from our communities. But in order for I.c.e. To be successful, they must restore public trust. We must acknowledge when federal agents are placed in chaotic, crowd control to situations at the risk of tragedy -- that the risk of tragedy increases. At the same time, state and local decisions that limit cooperation, affect how and where federal enforcement is carried out. Escalatory statements from any level of government only make it worse.
▶ 0:22:06Chair Paul: Reports that cooperation in minnesota is improving when agents will return to their normal assignments and be positioned outside of minnesota are encouraging. Restoring trust however it requires more than assurances. It requires independent review, clear standards for the use of force, and honest account ability. A government that values liberty -- accountability. A government that values liberty it must be willing to look at its own actions.
▶ 0:22:36Chair Paul: That's how we protect actions and prevent loss of life. >> thank you, Mr. chairman, for convening today's hearing. Americans have seen on video, with their own eyes, as law enforcement officers from the department of homeland security have tackled and beaten U.S. citizens in the streets. As they have broken windows and yanked U.S. citizens from their cars.
▶ 0:23:06Chair Paul: As they've been pepper spray it in the face at point-blank.
▶ 0:23:09Sen. Peters: And as they have shot and killed two U.S. citizens, renée good and alex pretti, who were exercising their first amendment rights. In alex pretti's case, his second amendment rights. These actions have been carried out by mass federal officers without appropriate identification.
▶ 0:23:32Sen. Peters: And near areas like schools and houses of worship, where innocent children are often present and placed in harm's way. While all of americans agree that we should remove violent criminals who pose a threat to public safety, as part of immigration enforcement, we all agree at that. Most americans also, overwhelmingly agree, that the administrations violent and heavy-handed tactics are an abuse of power.
▶ 0:24:02Sen. Peters: And they must be reined in. Today's hearing comes at a critical time. As congress has a chance to put native reforms in place to hold dhs law officials and enforcement officers who supervise them accountable.
▶ 0:24:18Sen. Peters: I am grateful that today, the committee and the american people will have a chance to not only hear from state officials from the state of minnesota, but most importantly, from key agency officials within the dhs who oversee the officers carrying out the actions that we have all seen on the ground in communities like minneapolis. I look forward to hearing testimonies from these dhs officials. But, at the end of the day, they all answer to secretary noem.
▶ 0:24:48Sen. Peters: She must also fulfill her responsibility to testify before this committee. And, more important lee, the american people. For the lawless and unconstitutional behavior that some dhs officers have carried out under her leadership. Today, we are going to hear a lot of explanations and justifications from federal officials.
▶ 0:25:09Sen. Peters: And I'm sure we will hear accusations about communities like minneapolis and what the trump administration thinks their obligations are when it comes to immigration enforcement. But, let's be clear, immigration enforcement is solely the responsibility of the federal government. We will hear it today from state officials in minnesota who will shine a light on how they cooperate with I.c.e., despite the administration's rhetoric to the contrary.
▶ 0:25:38Sen. Peters: Instead of working cooperatively with the state and local enforcement on these operations, through their chaotic and dangerous engagements, the trump administration has undermined all trust between communities and federal law enforcement. In doing so, they have made it harder for local police to protect public safety and address crime in their communities.
▶ 0:25:58Sen. Peters: On top of that, the dhs has also broken trust with the american people, to the point where we can no longer believe the words and information the department is putting out. For example, in the aftermath of the horrific shooting deaths of renée good and alex pretti, at the hands of dhs officers, secretary noem and other officials rushed to smear, to smear two citizens exercising their first amendment rights, as
▶ 0:26:29Sen. Peters: Violent threats. And as domestic terrorists. Dhs and white house officials used these words, spun a narrative that falsely painted the victims as violent agitators and tried to manipulate the truth about what actually happened on the ground. And they did this, despite the fact that there were multiple videos that have allowed all of us to see, with our own eyes, our own eyes, what actually happened.
▶ 0:27:00Sen. Peters: That americans who posed no threat were shot and killed in our streets, by representatives of the federal government. However, despite the efforts of the trump administration to spin lies, like most americans, I believe the truth still matters. I believe that every federal law enforcement officer has a responsibility to conduct their work in a professional manner and in accordance with the law.
▶ 0:27:26Sen. Peters: And I believe that when they don't, whether it's an individual officer or a high-ranking official from the department of homeland security, they must be held accountable for their actions. Today's hearing is about holding the dhs accountable for the chair -- terror they have unleashed in these communities through these violent, excessive and unprofessional tactics. As I said before, I expect to hear more excuses than admissions of error from dhs officials.
▶ 0:27:54Sen. Peters: With that in mind, I want to remind everyone exactly what we are talking about today. I have a brief video. If you put the brief video of, this is what we are talking about today. >> stop kneeing him in the face! That's his face. Stop it! >> what the hell!
▶ 0:28:23Sen. Peters: [indiscernible] >> why are you taking my information down? >> we have a database and you are considered a domestic terrorist. >> [laughter] for videotaping you?
▶ 0:28:59Sen. Peters: >> I ask you to submit consent letters I have received from owners, Mr. chair.
▶ 0:29:21Chair Paul: Congressman imre, you are recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:29:26Rep. Emmer: Thank you, chairman paul, ranking member peters and members of the committee for this opportunity. It's not every day a lowly house member gets to address the upper chamber. I want to acknowledge the other witnesses, harry nasca and commissioner snell and attorney general ellison for being able to offer their insight into this important issue. I look forward to attorney general ellison being forced to answer for his role in tying the hands of law enforcement in order to protect criminals.
▶ 0:29:57Rep. Emmer: It's a shame that his partner in crime, minneapolis mayor, jacob frey declined the invitation to testify here today. Try has no problem -- jacob frey has no problem talking to has no problem talking about minneapolis to any member of the media who will listen.
▶ 0:30:19Rep. Emmer: As a representative of minnesota's sixth congressional district, I have witnessed the first-hand, the consequences that come when democrats prioritize criminal illegal aliens over minnesotans. The unrest was unnerving, heartbreaking and any loss of life is tragic. But make no mistake, it was all a direct result of radical sanctuary state and city policies in minnesota.
▶ 0:30:48Rep. Emmer: By preventing local law enforcement from working together with federal law enforcement, they have turned minnesota into a safe haven for criminal, illegal aliens. We are talking about murders, -- murderers, rapists, gang members and child predators. Before you hear dizzying spin from one of the other witnesses here today, let's take a closer look at how we got here.
▶ 0:31:11Rep. Emmer: In 2020 one, with attorney general keith ellison as the chief law enforcement officer in our state, the head of the county sheriff's office issued a directive which prohibited the county's cooperation with immigration and customs enforcement. Four years later, ellison issued two legal opinions arguing minnesota law prohibits state and local law enforcement agencies from holding someone based on an immigration detainer, if the person would otherwise be released from custody.
▶ 0:31:40Rep. Emmer: And limiting county sheriff's ability to enter into 287 g cooperation agreements with federal law enforcement. What happened as a result? Criminal illegal aliens were released back onto our streets, putting innocent minnesotans lives at risk. Take the case of victoria for example. A minnesota mom who was allegedly killed by an illegal alien in a drunk driving car crash.
▶ 0:32:08Rep. Emmer: This criminal walked not once but twice, citing attorney general ellison's opinion. Flash forward to december of 2025, when the trump administration launched operation metro surge in minneapolis, fulfilling the border security mandate they were given by 77 million americans, and following the uncovering of rampant somali fraud through -- throughout our state.
▶ 0:32:33Rep. Emmer: As of last week, 4000, 4000 illegal aliens have been arrested since operation metro surge began. That includes the worst of the worst off our streets. But, in response, tim walz and keith ellison sued the department of homeland security, for simply deploying federal law enforcement to enforce federal law.
▶ 0:32:55Rep. Emmer: That lawsuit was ultimately rejected by a bite and appointed federal judge and now trump border czar tom homan has been working with minnesota officials to scale back operation metro surge on the condition that local law enforcement be allowed to cooperate with federal law enforcement. Something that occurred under president obama's administration. It's important to note that it didn't have to be this way.
▶ 0:33:22Rep. Emmer: The chaos in minneapolis was entirely preventable and had the local law enforcement been allowed to work with federal law enforcement from the beginning. We see that in states like texas, florida, utah and eight minnesota counties including the county in my district, sherburne county.
▶ 0:33:42Rep. Emmer: These counties have cooperated with federal law enforcement to prevent illegal aliens from roaming free, despite ridiculous threats of lawsuits by the aclu, arising from attorney general ellison's dangerous guidance. It's really that simple. By allowing local law enforcement to notify federal law enforcement when they arrest illegal aliens and detain them until a federal officer can come and get them, we limit the fed's footprint and keep dangerous criminals off of our streets.
▶ 0:34:12Rep. Emmer: It's a win-win for all parties involved. But tim walz, keith ellison and jacob frey are so beholden to their radical sanctuary state and city agenda that they have lost all common sense. And now, here we are today with innocent lives lost and chaos in our streets. It's horrible. But, entirely preventable. And it makes you wonder, why are minnesota democrats so keen on protecting criminal illegal aliens? Is it so they can secure votes come election season?
▶ 0:34:41Rep. Emmer: Tim walz, after all, refuses to hand over minnesota's voter rolls to the department of justice. Keith ellison has a history of cutting deals with somali fraudsters for political and financial gain. These are all very financial -- very important financial questions and I hope we can get some clarification on all of them today. Minnesotans deserve answers and accountability. Thank you for allowing me to testify on behalf of all of the hard-working, law-abiding minnesotans.
▶ 0:35:08Rep. Emmer: We are grateful to your -- for your commitment to uncovering the truth and ensuring the justice we serve. I yelled back.
▶ 0:35:14Chair Paul: Thank you for your statement and your participation today. It's a practice of this committee to swear in witnesses. Will each of the remaining witnesses rise and raise your right hand? Do you swear the testimony you give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you god? You may be seated.
▶ 0:35:42Chair Paul: The first witness will be harry nasca, representing district 31 a in the minnesota house of representatives and serves as a republican floor leader. Representativeness representativene -- representative niska.
▶ 0:35:59Rep. Nisca: Thank you for the opportunity to present a perspective from minnesota's immigration enforcement crisis. I want to ask russ might reap up -- I want to express my appreciation -- federal action only tells part of the story.
▶ 0:36:27Rep. Nisca: Minnesota had been proud of our reputation for a clean and good government. But recently, we've become a cautionary tale of chaos, corruption and fraud. In this decline is the result of specific policy choices, made by minnesota democrats. Especially related to immigration policy. First, they rolled out a welcome mat of benefits that erased the distinction between legal and illegal presence.
▶ 0:36:54Rep. Nisca: In 2023, specifically under all democrat control, minnesota passed driver's licenses for all, explicitly, including those without legal status and even refused to include commonsense measures like a label sank not eligible for voting. Minnesota created the northstar promise, which provides free college tuition, including two illegal immigrants and minnesota extended taxpayer-funded health care and paid leave benefits to those here illegally. But beyond incentives, we face a greater issue in minnesota.
▶ 0:37:25Rep. Nisca: Active nullification of federal law. Our attorney general, keith ellison, issued an opinion blocking the use of 287 g agreements, the gold standard for federal, state and law enforcement cooperation. And in another opinion, he provided legal cover for chefs who want to ignore I.c.e. Detainers. The results are stark. In some counties, ice detainers are complied with. In hennepin county, our largest jurisdiction, the sheriff's office complied with only 8% of I.c.e.
▶ 0:37:54Rep. Nisca: Detainers requests over a two year period. This obstruction has a cost. When jails refused to honor detainers, they don't stop enforcement. They displace them, arresting a suspect in the secure environment of a jail is safe and efficient. Forcing that arrest to happen in a home or workplace or, what we saw just this week in the lobby of the hennepin county courthouse, drastically increases the risk to officers in the public.
▶ 0:38:24Rep. Nisca: When minnesota local law enforcement officials, the hennepin county attorney things it's better to release someone caught with 50 pounds of meth in january, and release them into the community and I.c.e. Has to arrest them in the hennepin county courthouse, which is what happened yesterday, that is what causes the chaos we have seen in minneapolis.
▶ 0:38:46Rep. Nisca: The minneapolis police department has refused to assist with even crowd control during these types of chaotic situations. That's what resulted in the two tragic deaths we heard about earlier today. And we will never know, sadly, how those two situations would have turned out if minneapolis police had been permitted by their political leaders, to simply keep the peace, rather than forcing federal law enforcement officials into a
▶ 0:39:17Rep. Nisca: Chaotic situation. The rule of law must include enforcing federal immigration law. It must be done within the bounds of the law. But simply withdrawing federal enforcement at a heckler's veto, because of those who are opposed to enforcing the law would only validate that nullification and encourage further lawlessness.
▶ 0:39:46Rep. Nisca: >> keith ellison is the attorney general of the state of minnesota. Attorney general ellison, you are recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:39:55Gen. Ellison: Thank you, chairman paul and thank you, ranking member peters. And thank you to all members of the committee. I am keith ellison, I am the minnesota attorney general. Since early december, minnesota has been the site of operation metro surge. The largest single deployment of I.c.e. Agents in the history of the united states. The largest single immigration enforcement surge our country has ever seen. The surge has caused real harm to our state.
▶ 0:40:26Gen. Ellison: Members of the committee, I respectfully ask you to exercise your oversight powers to do the following things. One, require I.c.e. To provide a full transparent county of everyone stopped -- counting of everyone stopped, and detained during operation metro surge. Two, require I.c.e.
▶ 0:40:48Gen. Ellison: To document its detention facilities and allow clergy and directed officials full access. Three, require the fbi to conduct investigations in partnership with minnesota into the depths of renée good and alex pretti and to every other use of excessive force. Four, require I.c.e. To stop masking. Stop the racial profiling. Stop conducting war on the searches.
▶ 0:41:18Gen. Ellison: And finally, pass comprehensive immigration reform. I was so encouraged years ago, when senator lankford was leading that effort. It needs to be renewed. One question, any rational person might ask, is why. Why is this happening? Because it simply does not really make sense. Every rationale be administered and is offered for the search is a pretext. The government has said the purpose of the search is to fight unauthorized immigration.
▶ 0:41:50Gen. Ellison: Yet, minnesota ranks 28th among all states in the percentage of undocumented immigrants. Florida and texas alone have nearly as many undocumented people as the entire population of the state of minnesota. The government has said the purpose of the surge is to fight fraud in government programs. Of course, I hate fraud in my office and I'm already fighting it. We have convicted 300 people of medicaid fraudsters in the last seven years.
▶ 0:42:18Gen. Ellison: The government did not search forensic accountants to minnesota. They didn't search computer experts. Instead, they sent 3000 masked, armed men, who are now kicking in doors, demanding papers and killing minnesotans, not fighting fraud. The surge has hurt the fight against fraud. Because of that, a wave of experienced prosecutors have left the U.S.
▶ 0:42:47Gen. Ellison: Attorney's office in minnesota and the remaining staff are now drowning in a flood of habeas corpus petitions. The government has also said the purpose of the surge was to fight violent crime and rid our streets of the worst of the worst. And yet, violent crime rights in minneapolis were -- rates in minneapolis were falling before the surge. 70% of those detained in minnesota have no criminal record at all. Notoriously, some of those detained have been children.
▶ 0:43:18Gen. Ellison: It five-year-old liam canejo ramos the worst of the worst? -- is five-year-old liam canejo ramos the worst of the worst? Recently, the government has said the purpose of the surge is to gain cooperation from state and local officials and immigration enforcement.
▶ 0:43:47Gen. Ellison: The minnesota department of corrections already follows state law that requires minnesota to notify federal authorities when a noncitizen is incarcerated for a felony. Second, under minnesota law, no jail can keep someone incarcerated on and I.c.e. Detainers longer than they are otherwise legally allowed to incarcerate them. This is not unique to minnesota. Several of our federal and state courts have reached a broad consensus that aligns with our law.
▶ 0:44:16Gen. Ellison: So, after dismissing all of the pretext, what's clear, this surge is all about what donald trump said it was all about. In a truth social post on january 13, he wrote retribution and reckoning was coming to minnesota. This war on minnesota is retribution, to be sure. Our policies, our values and how we vote, and it comes at a great cost. Senators, it comes at a cost of the lives of two U.S. citizens. Renée good and alex pretti.
▶ 0:44:47Gen. Ellison: It comes at the cost of shuttered businesses, Mr. chairman. Disruptions and education for tens of thousands of children. And it comes at the cost, Mr. chairman, to our constitution. Under the 10th amendment, the federal government may not compel oak -- or course states to enforce -- coerce states to enforce immigration laws.
▶ 0:45:19Gen. Ellison: The federal government may not restrict the rights to peaceful a simile. Mr. chairman, you will never know how grateful I am that you called this hearing to discuss this matter. Mr. ranking member, I do appreciate it very much. The people of minnesota care very deeply about the health, safety and constitutional right of their neighbors. I have one final request of all senators. And that is directed to the administration. In the surge.
▶ 0:45:51Gen. Ellison: End it now. It's already gone too far and it must go no further. I yelled back. -- I.e. -- I. Yield back.
▶ 0:46:06Chair Paul: Commissioner snell, you are recognized for your opening statement.
▶ 0:46:13Com. Schnell: Thank you my name is paul schnell and I served in the minnesota department of corrections. I appear before you as a career public safety and fashionable -- professional, former law enforcement officer. What is happening in minnesota is not a dispute about whether immigration law should be enforced. What is in question are the reasons for the unprecedented federal actions in our state and the tactics being used.
▶ 0:46:46Com. Schnell: Two minnesotans, both you just -- U.S. citizens are dead following encounters with I.c.e. Agents. That alone warrants serious oversight. Particularly in the light of federal officials. Oversight must begin by separating fact from fiction. Our agency has worked hard to bring fax to light. Accuracy is not defined.
▶ 0:47:17Com. Schnell: The narrative is minnesota is a lawless actuary were dangerous criminals are allowed to slip through the cracks. That simply is not true. My written testimony is extensive. But, I would like to highlight three points. First, minnesota honors immigration detainers and has coordinated with federal authorities for many years. Any suggestion that we refuse to cooperate or harbor noncitizens is baseless.
▶ 0:47:46Com. Schnell: Second, president trump's request that offenders be deported before they serve sentences undermine victim and state justice interests. Third, the execution of operation metro surge has had tragic consequences. What has resulted is not controlled, target focused enforcement, but an operation lacking planning, discipline and constitutional restraint.
▶ 0:48:17Com. Schnell: It is both possible to respect civil liberties and engage in meaningful immigration enforcement. We as a country need dhs to respect that balance. Minnesota's experience shows us that unchecked enforcement can lead to tragedy and a profound loss of trust. Constitutional rights are not partisan issues.
▶ 0:48:42Com. Schnell: Government power it must be checked and balanced and law enforcement whilst enforcement wh must operate witn the law. Chairman paul and members of the committee, I'm here because I believe oversight is urgently needed. Minnesota seeks a return to law enforcement agencies respecting each other's roles, where enforcement is proportional and constitutional. And where the public can trust that government power is exercised responsibly and transparently. We are not there today.
▶ 0:49:14Com. Schnell: But with your help and continued advocacy with leaders who uphold the constitutional principles, I'm hopeful we can get there again. I'm prepared to answer your questions and assist the committee's inquiry in any way I can.
▶ 0:49:33Chair Paul: Thank you. I think there is a way we can get beyond our input -- differences in immigration. We have to look at this in a broad scope and try to leave some of that aside. I think there is no justification for bad behavior from law enforcement. Whether it is local police or others. It has to be corrected. We have to change policies. I think there is an explanation.
▶ 0:50:04Chair Paul: When a clinician that has been put forward is they are vindictive. It, I don't know for sure. But I know if you tell people preemptively that your local police will not cooperate, so if I.c.e. Calls you up and says to minneapolis, we have a guy, I'm presuming it is a guy.
▶ 0:50:25Chair Paul: This bad guy, they want to pick them up and he's been convicted of an assault and he now needs to be deported, if the policy of minneapolis is not to cooperate at all, it's going to be a real problem and they will say we need more I.c.e. Agents. What happens right now, Mr. ellison, attorney general ellison, if I call up minneapolis and I say don smith is wanted and will you help us?
▶ 0:50:56Chair Paul: Could the tenant minneapolis policeman go with one or two agents and arrest him or do we need 12 agents and no minneapolis police? What happens?
▶ 0:51:05Gen. Ellison: Under statute 631.50, anybody convicted of a felony who is in custody, they must be questioned about their nationality.
▶ 0:51:22Chair Paul: That's a different question. I'm talking about someone who is in community and they need help arresting this person. They want help and is the local police force going to give them help or do they have to bring in all I.c.e. Agents to do that?
▶ 0:51:39Gen. Ellison: Targeted enforcement is not the problem. As has been said.
▶ 0:51:44Chair Paul: I think that's what's been said of some of your policies. The interpretation is they don't have to and won't cooperate with I.c.e.
▶ 0:51:52Gen. Ellison: Mr. chairman, what my -- first of all, they are not my policies, just of the members of the committee know. When you see advice or an advisory opinion coming from the attorney general's office, it's not my opinion, it's the lawyers in my offices and might best analysis of what the law requires. I say that to you, because even if I didn't issue an opinion, the law would still be what it was.
▶ 0:52:20Chair Paul: A month ago, if I.c.e. Called the local minneapolis police and said we want to arrest this person, will the minneapolis police helped I.c.e. To arrest the person?
▶ 0:52:30Gen. Ellison: I think so, yes.
▶ 0:52:32Chair Paul: Now we are in a question a fax. I think many people are arguing that's not true and that is a reason for the surge. If it is true, local officials need to say they will. The mayor of minneapolis said to use crude language to tell them where they go -- the mayor of minneapolis used crude language to tell them where to go.
▶ 0:53:02Chair Paul: It doesn't sound like that's what's happening to me. Do you really think it is happening, the cooperating?
▶ 0:53:08Gen. Ellison: Yes, I do, senator. If you would allow me to elaborate, I think that there is -- what we are dealing with is a difference of what the scenario is. If you are talking about a person who's been convicted of a crime, and targeted enforcement, you will see minnesota officials make sure that that person is addressed properly and deals with their consequences when it comes to --
▶ 0:53:41Chair Paul: Representative nisca niscka -- >> perhaps they will assist if there is some state crime that is alleged. If they said we need to pick somebody up for violating immigration law, the annapolis public statements have been that they won't.
▶ 0:54:06Chair Paul: The example we saw just this last week about someone who was arrested with -- an illegal immigrant arrested with 50 pounds of meth on january 8 was allowed to go free. It had to be taken by I.c.e. Last week.
▶ 0:54:21Chair Paul: Thank you. Mr. schnell, I would like to know -- I'm impressed with the idea that I.c.e. Saying there were 1300 people, some of these people were not in minnesota and some of been released to I.c.e. Themselves. The list is flat out wrong. The most impressive thing I heard in one of your interviews was that somebody named lou was a person that they were saying this is why we need to break down doors, because of this terrible person.
▶ 0:54:50Chair Paul: You said he was in jail already and he had a detainer. I think that truth needs to be explored if that is really happening. There used to be, people said, a direct portal, though. So when you did or some of got booked, it went directly to I.c.e.. Does that still exist or do you have to do them one at a time? >> we provide coordination according to the law to I.c.e..
▶ 0:55:21Chair Paul: There are systems available to people to get that, for I.c.e. To be able to get that.
▶ 0:55:25Chair Paul: I was told mayorkas stopped the portal. Is that true or not true?
▶ 0:55:32Com. Schnell: It's true that there is a portal.
▶ 0:55:34Chair Paul: And it was stopped under mayorkas?
▶ 0:55:37Com. Schnell: I believe so.
▶ 0:55:39Chair Paul: One of the questions go back to attorney general morris's point. I am a stickler for the law. Detaining someone who has already served their sentence does not make sense to me. Here's my question, if someone is in your prison for five years, some of them are going to be in prison for five years. They are also wanted, why couldn't we go to immigration court during the five years in prison?
▶ 0:56:09Chair Paul: Does that happen and why doesn't it happen?
▶ 0:56:13Com. Schnell: I've -- I believe there are rare instances where people have had proceedings while in custody.
▶ 0:56:22Chair Paul: You have a file court judgment come you go three court and you go through the -- go through the court and you go through the final judgment. They would have had their conviction. But they also have been seamlessly working. Most of the time when you notify I.c.e., are they showing up on the day they are released and it's a peaceful turnover or are they doing it half of the time, 40% of the time, 100% of the time?
▶ 0:56:52Chair Paul: How does that work?
▶ 0:56:55Com. Schnell: I think there has been white smoke -- widespread cooperation for most of the time.
▶ 0:57:06Chair Paul: Senator peters?
▶ 0:57:09Sen. Peters: Commissioner schnell, has I.c.e. Or anyone else at dhs attempted to coordinate operations with state and local law enforcement or even notified them when they are conducting immigration enforcement according to your knowledge?
▶ 0:57:32Com. Schnell: I believe this is one of the challenges. There has not been a planned full approach, there has not been efforts to coordinate or discuss their targets. We have not been provided with a list of targets where there could be some opportunities, where we have those dangerous people that represent a risk to minnesota's public safety. So, that has not happened.
▶ 0:57:59Com. Schnell: >> they have not been attempting to coordinate with local law enforcement. You have a long and distinguished career, including being in the police chief are a number of communities. They have not coordinated to your knowledge. What danger to public safety and law enforcement does this lack of coordination from dhs result in?
▶ 0:58:23Com. Schnell: I think, senator, what we see is a situation that is crisis driven. I think the challenges are, when things were out of hand, then it was we need local law enforcement to protect I.c.e. And I.c.e. Operations, when infective coordination had happened from the get-go, I think a lot of this could have been avoided.
▶ 0:58:47Com. Schnell: There is a long history, whether it's minneapolis police, the department of corrections, any law enforcement in minnesota of strong collaboration of federal partners. For instance, the department of homeland security investigations division does a lot of work with transnational drug investigations that are on task forces that law enforcement is actively involved in. These are important public safety ventures.
▶ 0:59:15Com. Schnell: And yet, this particular intrusion into the state really was done, solely by them, without coordination. And that has created public safety -- for estate and something that we should be concerned about.
▶ 0:59:35Sen. Peters: It sounds like it's a crisis situation because it's out of control. Then they called for help from the police, please help us, we are missing this operation up?
▶ 0:59:48Com. Schnell: I think that's precisely what we have seen over the course of time, as things became more crisis oriented after the two shootings, the two deaths, that then there was this need for collaboration and security. I.c.e. Agents and even the local I.c.e. Facility -- at I.c.e. Facility -- -- in minneapolis.
▶ 1:00:18Sen. Peters: Attorney general ellison, I will ask you another question. Can you describe the coordination between dhs and doj with the state and local officials into the investigations of the tragic shootings of renée good and alex pretti?
▶ 1:00:33Gen. Ellison: We haven't had a knee cooperation up until now, which is really unusual. Because in prior cases, where there has been a federal and state interest in a crime, we have seen collaboration between federal and state authorities. That's how we normally do work. It's not unusual at all. In fact, this situation, where we were told you can't have access to the evidence, to the crime scene.
▶ 1:01:06Gen. Ellison: That was highly unusual and surprising to us. We are hoping that we can gain cooperation. We've been advised that the feds are not investigating it and we have not received any access to the evidence that is involved in that case. It's an unusual, strange situation. But we are with good faith, hoping things will change.
▶ 1:01:34Sen. Peters: You're saying in the past they have worked with you but in these cases, they are stonewalling you?
▶ 1:01:41Gen. Ellison: That is a yes.
▶ 1:01:44Sen. Peters: Commissioner schnell, is cutting out law enforcement -- is cutting out local law enforcement a common and effective way to actually conduct an investigation?
▶ 1:01:58Com. Schnell: Senator, no. I think the operations as the attorney general pointed out of close collaboration and sharing of evidence, we saw that in rather significant cases, where there was both a local investigation and prosecution as well as a federal investigation and prosecution in other cases. So, I think as we look at public safety, the public safety of minnesota and the public safety of our country.
▶ 1:02:29Com. Schnell: Collaboration between law enforcement and targeted enforcement on issues of critical importance, whether that's human trafficking or large-scale drug interdiction's, these things need to continue and we need to get back on track for those matters. And, I think that's where success can happen. That's where success has happened in collaboration. But, that's not what's happening currently, as we see in minneapolis and minnesota.
▶ 1:03:01Sen. Peters: The next question is to both of you. This administration has demanded that state and local agencies use their extremely limited resources to basically subsidize dhs operations is what we are hearing. This is despite dhs receiving well over 100 billion dollars from the republican's building -- spending bill to conduct the operations we are seeing on the streets.
▶ 1:03:28Sen. Peters: Given the recent reporting that only 14% of arrests made by dhs are individuals with a criminal record, would you say this is a good use of those limited state resources that you have to protect the people on the streets of your local communities, to help I.c.e. Round up others on their way to work or children getting off of the school bus? Or, should you be using that to fight crime on your streets and making the people safe in your communities?
▶ 1:03:56Sen. Peters: How does that strain your ability to provide public safety for the residents that you serve?
▶ 1:04:09Gen. Ellison: Crime in minnesota has been going down and we are grateful for that. We need every resource to protect public safety. Resources are limited. I think given our circumstances, legal cooperation makes sense. But we simply don't have the state budget to be deputized to carry out functions that are dashed to the federal government. Debts reserved to the federal government. -- reserved to the federal government.
▶ 1:04:39Gen. Ellison: We can't commit our resources over to the federal government.
▶ 1:04:43Com. Schnell: I can't imagine how many dollars have been spent on operation metro surge. The cost of human life and the actual financial resources is hard to even imagine. Especially when we look at the numbers. We are talking about when we look at what is happening, operationally, it becomes hard to understand.
▶ 1:05:13Com. Schnell: Certainly taking in resources away from the local community would be contrary to public safety. In our state, and it's important to say that we didn't ask for this level of assistance. I think we have seen crime go down in our state. This certainly has not been ultimately beneficial to the safety of our state. >> senator johnson?
▶ 1:05:40Sen. Johnson: A lot of what we've heard here today it makes no sense. When you look at the history of -- the biden administration, you have to throw it up because it was such an aberration. Trump in his first term removed about half a million people, lower than obama.
▶ 1:06:11Sen. Johnson: -- that's a lot. It's not a lot when you realize we have flooded who knows how many, at least 10 million people if not more during the biden administration and created this enormous mess. According to dhs, 650,000 criminals are at large. They are not detained. 15,000 murderers. 20,000 people convicted of sexual assault.
▶ 1:06:39Sen. Johnson: That's the mess that the democrat and president biden's open border policy created that the trump administration is trying to clean up. They departed cloak -- deported close to 600,000 people under this administration. In most states and in most cities, there aren't protests. There aren't protesters being shot. Obviously, probably in los angeles and portland.
▶ 1:07:09Sen. Johnson: Places that claim to be sanctuary cities that sounds like attorney general ellison is denying the fact that we cooperate with I.c.e.. I think representative niska wouldn't agree with that. This doesn't make sense to me. I wish we had the government officials or dhs officials to refute this or to rebut it.
▶ 1:07:39Sen. Johnson: We had an interesting hearing last week on the fraud and minnesota. And we had state senator mark kroc. And in his testimony, he was talking about local reports of something like 30,000, they called them observers being trained. I thought that was an incredible figure. I'm not saying there actually were. But, it certainly sounds like there are activists being trained.
▶ 1:08:06Sen. Johnson: Are you aware of training for activists, Mr. ellison, in minnesota? That some of the protesters literally went through training, there are groups out there providing training? Are you aware of that?
▶ 1:08:17Gen. Ellison: Yeah, I am aware of that. It is common for people to use their first amendment right to protest things that they don't believe are right.
▶ 1:08:26Sen. Johnson: --
▶ 1:08:28Gen. Ellison: It's first amendment activity, sir.
▶ 1:08:32Sen. Johnson: Were you aware of the signal chats? I believe the governor of minnesota was helping manage the signal chats. Were you aware of that being used to deploy those people?
▶ 1:08:47Gen. Ellison: I'm aware it exists but this is first amendment activity, sir. This is something that the law --
▶ 1:08:54Sen. Johnson: Did you ever encourage people to go out there and exercise their first amendment rights?
▶ 1:09:01Gen. Ellison: Yeah, I do. I freely admit being a believer in the first amendment.
▶ 1:09:08Sen. Johnson: You encouraged activists to put themselves into harms way. You have to know, because they were watching this, that there were scalpels, at least. That these people were obstructing justice. I imagine you would be concerned about people obstructing justice. Putting their cars into streets, blocking roads. I would think as chief law enforcer, you would be concerned about that.
▶ 1:09:36Sen. Johnson: But, were you ever concerned about encouraging people to support you, to go out and put themselves into harms way, by impeding and obstructing law enforcement activity?
▶ 1:09:53Gen. Ellison: Sir, that never happened. We all set if you want to protest, protest peacefully and process -- and protest safely. I will always be for the first amendment.
▶ 1:10:09Sen. Johnson: You were seeing these couples. By the way, minneapolis police officials could not help protect I.c.e. Officials. Representative niska, when you are talking about the nullification of federal law, isn't that one of the things that they simply could not help and protect I.c.e. And their legal law enforcement actions?
▶ 1:10:34Rep. Niska: The minneapolis police department issued guidance in july that they would not help with crowd control around immigration operations. Minnesota leaders encouraged that kind of action. The minnesota lieutenant governor encouraged people to put their bodies on the line.
▶ 1:10:49Sen. Johnson: I can't imagine encouraging someone who supported me politically to go and put themselves in harm's way. I can't imagine that. Particularly when you know that these law enforcement officials have been shot at. A couple of illegal immigrants invert in late killed because people were shooting at I.c.e. Officers. Their vehicles have been rammed by some of these peaceful protesters, trained activists.
▶ 1:11:18Sen. Johnson: They have had rocks thrown at their vehicles. I can't imagine encouraging people, put yourselves in harm's way. Go out there and record that. I, as a government official, would have said back off. Let us work with I.c.e., let's cooperate with them. Let's see if we can de-escalate this. But attorney general, you did the exact opposite.
▶ 1:11:44Sen. Johnson: And two people are dead, because you encouraged them to put themselves into harms way. And now you are exploiting those two murders. That was a tragedy. It never should've happened. Now, we can investigate.
▶ 1:12:03Sen. Johnson: But, I can't imagine being a law enforcement official where I know my colleagues have been shot at, their vehicles ramped, that there are trained activists deployed -- rammed, that there are trained activists deployed, and we know one of those activists had a semi automatic pistol with extra clips. You are an I.c.e.
▶ 1:12:29Sen. Johnson: Officer and you have a team trying to protect you, you have trained activists behind you, is it any wonder they adhere sugar alert? A tragedy a tr-- trigger alert? A tragedy happened and you encouraged it. You ought to be damn ashamed of it?
▶ 1:12:58Gen. Ellison: Are you asking me for comment, everything you said was untrue. It was a nice theatrical performance but it was all a lie.
▶ 1:13:08Sen. Johnson: Disgusting.
▶ 1:13:13Chair Paul: Hassan?
▶ 1:13:18Sen. Hassan: Thank you. We are here today because americans are outraged by the deliberate trampling of civil rights and lawlessness from this administration that has left americans shot and dead. Two american citizens shot dead by massive federal agents.
▶ 1:13:39Sen. Hassan: And with respect to my colleague from wisconsin, there is a long tradition in this country, especially in the civil rights movement, which finally brought us out of the jim crow era, of peaceful, nonviolent demonstration where people are trained, so that when they are attacked, even by law enforcement who are escalating, they know how to stay calm.
▶ 1:14:06Sen. Hassan: And it's because of that kind of nonviolent, first amendment activity, that we were finally able to pass civil rights laws in this country. Immigration enforcement needs to combine strong border security with a targeted focused effort on removing violent criminals.
▶ 1:14:34Sen. Hassan: Instead, this administration's divisive, dangerous and deadly actions are making our communities less safe. Today's hearing provides today's hearing provides an important opportunity because what is happening today is unacceptable to the people in my state of new hampshire and to people in every corner and people around the globe. Since I just got back from the country of greenland.
▶ 1:15:06Sen. Hassan: They know this too and their children are scared of the united states of america. I hope my republican colleagues will continue the bipartisan conversations that some of us have been trying to have and are necessary to enact meaningful commonsense reforms to keep the communities safe. Mr.
▶ 1:15:28Sen. Hassan: Schnell, last month president trump stated that minnesota officials should turn over all criminal illegal aliens currently incarcerated in their prisons and jails to federal authorities. As the head of the department of corrections, you run minnesota's prisons and in your testimony, you describe how your department already works with I.c.e. To transfer noncitizen prisoners in your custody to federal custody. You all do that.
▶ 1:15:57Sen. Hassan: So you are doing your part to coordinate with I.c.e. I want to hear from you giving your years of experience, have the actions of I.c.e. And the trump administration improved law enforcement in minnesota or have they made it more difficult?
▶ 1:16:12Mr. Schnell: Senator, the current operation makes it much more difficult. The levels of misinformation become challenging. In the past few days from the white house x account, there was a post about I.c.e. Removal of the worst of the worst from minnesota street and they recited Mr.
▶ 1:16:37Mr. Schnell: Alim's removal from minnesota when in fact he was released directly to I.c.e. From the department of corrections on may first of 2025. This makes it much more challenging for law enforcement and it is so contrary to the way it has historically been in terms of collaboration. This is one of the challenges we face.
▶ 1:17:08Sen. Hassan: Thank you. You talk in your testimony about trust, saying, "the erosion of trust between dhs and minnesota is at the core of this crisis. I suspect we will feel repercussions for years to come." this is an incredibly important point. The greatest responsibility of a government is keeping citizens safe. But that cannot be at the cost of freedom and liberty.
▶ 1:17:38Sen. Hassan: These things have to work together or you lose the trust of your citizens. Across the country, law enforcement and the community works together in this way to work to be safe. Having lived this experience, what do you see as some of the repercussions of this loss of trust and what can we do to rebuild it?
▶ 1:17:58Mr. Schnell: I think it happens here with this committee and congress taking clear action to address and rebuild the legitimacy and trust in I.c.e. We want to be clear, there is a legitimate need for immigration enforcement and for addressing those people who represent a threat to public safety.
▶ 1:18:24Mr. Schnell: What we want is a return to the days where there is close collaboration, where we can focus on key issues of public safety across our country, things like transnational large-scale drug efforts as well as human trafficking.
▶ 1:18:48Mr. Schnell: These are really important issues that there has been long-standing collaboration and I am worried that because of what is happening today, those efforts will be lost for we will not invest the resources needed in those areas.
▶ 1:19:03Sen. Hassan: I appreciate that. I come from a small state but we have 234 cities and towns. Some police departments have a few officers. Larger cities have many more than that. Can you talk about the realistic need to cooperate and plan when you have limited resources?
▶ 1:19:30Sen. Hassan: It sounds to me that what the administration is asking minneapolis to do is turn over the entire police force to I.c.e. To do their work and drawing them away from investigating state crimes which is incredibly important. Can you talk about that for a second?
▶ 1:19:48Mr. Schnell: Minneapolis like many communities across the country have limited resources and a profound need on the policing front. It has to be targeted and focused on the needs of those communities.
▶ 1:20:04Mr. Schnell: And diverting this away -- in fact, we can look at the president's task force on 24th century policing through 2014 that really focused on the need for there to be an effort but the de-coupling of immigration enforcement from local law enforcement, and that does not mean there is not collaboration and we need to focus on the right targets.
▶ 1:20:31Mr. Schnell: But it does speak to the fact that local law enforcement has a role, as does federal immigration efforts. Recognizing the differences there becomes critically important. Law enforcement agencies across the state want to work together, they need to work together. But there also has to be an appropriate focus on the needs of a particularly community, large or small.
▶ 1:20:57Sen. Hassan: Thank you.
▶ 1:20:59Chair Paul: Senator lankford.
▶ 1:21:02Sen. Lankford: Thank you. I want to bring a couple of things. For those of you on the panel, you have not seen yet that tom homan has announced that they are standing down operation metro search. He also announced that they have 4000 total arrests of folks who are undocumented and have identified over 3300 children who were unaccompanied minors. We did not know their whereabouts.
▶ 1:21:33Sen. Lankford: They were lost during the last administration. Those kids were identified as far as where they are. We had seven kids lost in the labor trafficking. There is news that is happening. I want to correct the record on a couple of things even in conversation today. 14% of the folks have a criminal record that I.c.e. Has detained, that is not an accurate number. That number is 14% of violent criminals.
▶ 1:22:02Sen. Lankford: That is murders and grapes -- rapes. 70% of the folks arrested have a criminal record. There are some folks who do not see as important arresting people who have duis or drug dealers or robbery. They are just interested in murderers and greatest -- rapi sts. In my state, folks with a criminal record, they are interested in having those folks removed.
▶ 1:22:34Sen. Lankford: 70% of those apprehended by I.c.e., I.c.e. Have a criminal record, not 14%. We have known each other a long time. You made a comment earlier about trying to work together to solve things. During the biden administration I made it clear that I will work with anyone who will stop the chaos happening at the border during that time period.
▶ 1:22:56Sen. Lankford: Every time I was working with the biden administration to find a solution with 12,000 people per day illegally crossing the border, almost none of them had any background checks at all. We had no idea who they were and he had 70,000 people that even the biden administration identified as special interest aliens coming from areas of known terrorism that we did not know who they were. 70,000 just in 2024.
▶ 1:23:23Sen. Lankford: I was willing to work with anyone to try to make that stop because it was absolutely out of control. I look at what is happening in minnesota and there has been a great conversation to just figure out things. I.c.e. Did a surge in new orleans. This did not happen. I.c.e. Did a surge in an attempt. This did not happen -- in north carolina, this did not happen.
▶ 1:23:51Sen. Lankford: About 1200 jurisdictions in the country that have an agreement with the federal government on honoring detainers and working to partner, there are 1400 total agreements of some kind of memorandum of understanding with I.c.e. And with local law enforcement across the country. What I am hearing from you is in minnesota 287 g would not be allowed according to state law.
▶ 1:24:17Sen. Lankford: How many 287 agreements are in minnesota at this point?
▶ 1:24:28Mr. Ellison: The position my office has taken, you must have -- it is just a restatement of what the law is? >> how many agreements? >> I think seven is the last number I heard. We are not saying that people cannot do those agreements. We are saying there is a procedure they have to follow that involves engaging with your county board. That is all.
▶ 1:24:55Sen. Lankford: My challenge is, if there is someone arrested in minnesota, they have three duis and they are incarcerated. And it is in the record that this person also has a murder warrant in oklahoma. Would they be held until oklahoma authorities came to get them at that point or with a at the end of whatever term be released? If oklahoma said we want that person.
▶ 1:25:24Sen. Lankford: I know you are prosecuting him but before you release him, do not let go of him until we get there. What would happen?
▶ 1:25:32Gen. Ellison: I am confident that minnesota would honor oklahoma's request.
▶ 1:25:36Sen. Lankford: How is that different from other places with I.c.e. Detainers? A court has already ruled they have an order of removal. They need to be removed. Would they be held until I.c.e. Gets there?
▶ 1:25:52Gen. Ellison: If there is a final order of removal, Mr. schnell would be the best person to answer the question but yes, I.c.e. Would be notified. Those people are being picked up. Senator, I appreciated the work you were doing on immigration. I want to be clear that we need to return to that level of bipartisan cooperation and I hope you can continue in that direction.
▶ 1:26:24Gen. Ellison: One of my problems is that a lot of the reasons the federal administration is targeting minnesota are not justified based on the law.
▶ 1:26:34Sen. Lankford: My first question is if someone has the final order of removal from an immigration court, should they be removed?
▶ 1:26:40Gen. Ellison: Yes.
▶ 1:26:43Sen. Lankford: The argument has been sometimes they do a detainer and by the time they get there, they have been released. Is that occurring? If oklahoma contacts minnesota and says hold them until we get there or if I.c.e. Contacts them, what is the difference?
▶ 1:27:02Gen. Ellison: If someone has been convicted of a felony, that person, there will be questions about their nationality and that information will be reported to I.c.e.. Under a case that is based on federal and state lot minnesota, if the person is not convicted and there is a I.c.e. Detainer, then I.c.e.
▶ 1:27:27Gen. Ellison: Has to get them because they cannot be held beyond the time that the state had a legitimate reason to hold them.
▶ 1:27:35Sen. Lankford: They were already notified in enough time for I.c.e. To get there. It takes two agents to pick somebody up if they are being detained. It takes eight agents to get them if they are on the street. Their desire is if you have someone even if they have not been convicted but just arrested, I.c.e. Is going to contact and say we want to do this. What you were saying before, 8% of I.c.e. Detainers being honored, I want to ask about that.
▶ 1:28:05Gen. Ellison: The final order of removal, someone in minnesota state custody, I'm confident these people are being picked up . If there is no final order of removal, if there is no felony conviction, if the person is still pretrial, then it would be a re-arrest and detention from minnesota if we continue to hold them beyond minnesota's authority to hold them.
▶ 1:28:34Gen. Ellison: So we cannot just say we will hold you because I.c.e. Wants you. If it is a nonfelony situation, there is no conviction.
▶ 1:28:41Sen. Lankford: We will follow up with I.c.e. Agents.
▶ 1:28:44Chair Paul: It is a great subject and hits on the point. If you were to issue a statement saying that final orders will be obeyed by every county and every police department, final orders will be obeyed including the final order. We now have a final order and the guy who lives at this address, we will send the police with I.c.e. Agents to that house. Would you issue that order?
▶ 1:29:09Gen. Ellison: That is already the law.
▶ 1:29:12Chair Paul: Nobody is cooperating and nobody believes there is cooperation. Issuing that order or issuing a public statement. Would you issue a public statement that reiterates the law that with orders, you do -- and it brings up the other problem, maybe we need more orders and maybe I.c.e. Needs to go to court and get final orders and you would comply with that.
▶ 1:29:38Chair Paul: I think they need to be told from you that you would actually comply, if that is the distinction. You don't like detainers because they are not a final order and you and final court orders, the people of america and minneapolis would do better to hear from you that you will obey final orders. Then we have to figure out how come we don't have enough final orders and we have not adjudicated these things and then we are isolating in on the problem.
▶ 1:30:01Gen. Ellison: I have stated the minnesota law clearly as many times as I need to. That is not why we are here. We are here because of other political considerations. Not because of something that minnesota is doing wrong.
▶ 1:30:15Chair Paul: I think that is sidestepping the issue. Senator kim.
▶ 1:30:21Sen. Kim: Thank you. Attorney general, I want to start with you. I was going to the minnesota state website and I pulled up some facts. I want to make sure they sound right. It was saying there were 585 police within the minneapolis police. Does that sound right?
▶ 1:30:38Gen. Ellison: Yes.
▶ 1:30:40Ms. Kim: About 561 in st. Paul?
▶ 1:30:42Gen. Ellison: Accurate.
▶ 1:30:48Sen. Kim: We are talking about 1700 for the largest areas as well patrol. What was the total number of federal agents deployed at the height of the surge?
▶ 1:30:59Gen. Ellison: There were the ones they started with and then 3000 more after that. My numbers suggest to me there is somewhere between 3000 and 4000 the best estimates. We don't have an exact precise number. My numbers, that is 10% of all I.c.e. Agents in america.
▶ 1:31:17Sen. Kim: When I was -- when we were talking about the different rules and the ways to organize between the federal and state, but when I learned about the number and the proportion on the ground, that was shocking. I don't think I fully understood that coming from new jersey.
▶ 1:31:41Sen. Kim: I just wanted to ask you how does it feel on the ground when you have that much presence at the federal level of these officers beyond what you were saying, two to three times the total number of state and local officers?
▶ 1:31:55Gen. Ellison: It felt like our state was targeted, blanketed with paramilitaries everywhere who were approaching citizens and noncitizens, whoever. It felt like we were being occupied by the federal government.
▶ 1:32:14Gen. Ellison: I started reading about how the boston massacre, how did they feel when a faraway government in england had imperial troops marching all over their city, harassing and abusing citizens. That is how I felt.
▶ 1:32:31Sen. Kim: I heard that word used by others in minnesota and the press, just feeling occupied. Feeling like you don't have the ability to control your own state and have this imposed upon you. I wanted to hit that because we are having talks about cooperation. I think the committee needs to look at the volume, the number of federal agents and what signal that sends to minnesota and of those on the ground.
▶ 1:33:01Gen. Ellison: May I make one quick point? Forgive me, my apologies. It has been said there have been searches in other states and we have not had these problems. The reason why is it has never been on this scale. This level of scale in other cities, this is the single largest deployment of immigration agents in the history of our country. Sorry for interrupting.
▶ 1:33:29Sen. Kim: That is important to hear. We heard the news from tom homan announcing the end of the surge. This on the heels of trump saying he is not backing down. We are seeing the importance of oversight, accountability and the voice of american people. Especially the people of minnesota who as far as I can tell seem like they have disapproved of I.c.e. And they say I.c.e. Has gone too far. That is not just on partisan lines.
▶ 1:34:00Sen. Kim: It seems like it is across-the-board.
▶ 1:34:01Gen. Ellison: There is a well-known conservative podcaster. This guy is a conservative. He is nobody is liberal. He is a conservative. It is a broad-based objective that minnesotans are making. Not everyone, of course. But from the left to the center to the right, people are very disturbed by the engagement they have received from I.c.e. Officials and border patrol agents.
▶ 1:34:31Sen. Kim: Despite the fact that the surge looks like it is ending and going back down, we can all say that damage has been done. There was also no admission of wrongdoing or wrongdoing of tactics by this administration and it raises questions about what is next not just for minnesota but where else will the agents go next. Also part of this gets to what does it take to help the people of minnesota heal.
▶ 1:35:02Sen. Kim: You talked about the lack of an independent investigation. Is that something that is important for the people of minnesota to know that there is a true independent investigation that involves state and local participation?
▶ 1:35:14Gen. Ellison: Yes. I know there is a diversity of views on this esteemed committee. I hope that we all would agree we need transparency in terms of the activities of I.c.e., transparency in terms of the conditions of detention facilities, access to those facilities, a full investigation into the deaths of renee good and alex pretti and the masking.
▶ 1:35:40Gen. Ellison: Nobody in this committee has officers who run around wearing masks. I am certain that senator paul, kentucky state troopers do not wear masks. We cannot impose on people what we would not accept for ourselves and call ourselves fair. I want to encourage senator lankford to continue his work on comprehensive immigration reform.
▶ 1:36:04Sen. Kim: Mr. schnell, I want to turn to you because some of what tom homan said today, he said part of the reason why they are able to end the surge is now there is a willingness on state and local to cooperate. Your testimony sounded like you were already willing to cooperate but that also they were not reaching out, that they were not providing the efforts to be able to share their targets. Can you go into that a little bit more?
▶ 1:36:33Mr. Schnell: I think if there is a positive of tom homan being dispatched to minnesota, there have at least been efforts to have discussions with local officials. Efforts to try and gain a level of discipline among the agents that were dispatched to the state. Those things have been very positive. And yet we still see a lack of cooperation.
▶ 1:37:06Mr. Schnell: I've met with Mr. tom homan and we had positive conversations. And yet, some struggles have been information sharing. It is an ongoing issue. We have provided information to them around the people we have in custody who are noncitizens and do not have detainers. There are about 100 of them. We want to make sure there is full accountability.
▶ 1:37:38Sen. Kim: Also stopping some of the misinformation.
▶ 1:37:40Mr. Schnell: 100%.
▶ 1:37:42Sen. Kim: I yield back.
▶ 1:37:44Chair Paul: Senator hawley.
▶ 1:37:46Sen. Hawley: Thank you. You are the attorney general of minnesota, correct?
▶ 1:37:52Gen. Ellison: I am aware of my job. You know the answer to that?
▶ 1:37:56Sen. Hawley: Are we going to start this way? Are you the attorney general of minnesota?
▶ 1:38:01Gen. Ellison: You know the answer.
▶ 1:38:03Sen. Hawley: You are in my courtroom under old so I suggest you answer my questions. Are you the chief law enforcement officer of minnesota, yes or no? Let's try another question. Are you familiar with the $9 billion of historic fraud out of your state including the $250 million in the feeding our future program? Are you familiar, yes or no?
▶ 1:38:26Gen. Ellison: Yes, I am familiar.
▶ 1:38:29Sen. Hawley: Very familiar because the people who ran that program came to you in your official office in the state capitol on december 11, 2021 and asked for your help in getting investigators off of their backs. They complained to you for upwards of an hour about state investigators going after them and they begged you to help them and you agreed, amazingly. And we know you did because it is all on tape. Every single sentence is on tape. Here is what you said.
▶ 1:39:02Sen. Hawley: You said to them, "send me the names of all of these folks who are investigating." you said, "send me their names and I will call the person at education and say, what is going on, why am I getting these complaints?" you went on to say, I already have my team working on this. What day should be good together to discuss it again? You made pledge after pledge to them. You said we have to make sure this guy stops it. You said you have my attention.
▶ 1:39:34Sen. Hawley: I am concerned about this. You said let's go fight these people, meaning the people who were investigating the fraud. Why did you do it? Why did you help them?
▶ 1:39:44Gen. Ellison: Are you going to let me answer?
▶ 1:39:46Sen. Hawley: We are all ears.
▶ 1:39:48Gen. Ellison: First of all, you are cherry picking.
▶ 1:39:51Sen. Hawley: Why did you help them?
▶ 1:39:53Gen. Ellison: I thought? You were going to let me answer why won't you let me answer?
▶ 1:39:58Sen. Hawley: Tell me the truth and I will let you answer.
▶ 1:40:01Gen. Ellison: I did not come here to be insulted.
▶ 1:40:04Sen. Hawley: You came here for the truth. Why did you help them? Your words are here in black-and-white and every member of this audience can listen to the recording. It is 54 minutes long. It is in public and you can listen to it. Why did you help them?
▶ 1:40:21Gen. Ellison: First of all, I did not help them.
▶ 1:40:24Sen. Hawley: You did.
▶ 1:40:25Gen. Ellison: I certainly did not.
▶ 1:40:27Sen. Hawley: I already have my team working on this. That is not you?
▶ 1:40:33Gen. Ellison: My team associated with the information that led to the prosecution and conviction of these people.
▶ 1:40:40Sen. Hawley: You did not prosecute them.
▶ 1:40:43Gen. Ellison: Yes we did.
▶ 1:40:45Sen. Hawley: B.s. You had whistleblowers come to you as early as 2019.
▶ 1:40:53Gen. Ellison: You are the one cherry picking quotes.
▶ 1:40:56Sen. Hawley: Why did you take their money?
▶ 1:40:58Gen. Ellison: I did not.
▶ 1:40:59Sen. Hawley: You took $10,000.
▶ 1:41:03Gen. Ellison: That is a false statement.
▶ 1:41:05Sen. Hawley: $10,000 nine days after the meeting. You took $10,000. They went to your office, they solicited money and help from you. They came to your official office. You were with them for 54 minutes. They asked you for help and they talked repeatedly about money. In fact, it is all they talked about. Money, money, money. They said we will put our dollars in the right place. We will support candidates who fight to protect our interests.
▶ 1:41:37Sen. Hawley: You replied, "that's right." they said, you can act the way you want. You said, "money is frida." I am reading the transcript. You said, "give me the specifics." and nine days later you took $10,000 from people who were indicted. It is in your report. Why did you do it? Was it worth it?
▶ 1:42:05Gen. Ellison: This is a theatrical performance.
▶ 1:42:08Sen. Hawley: This is the truth. This is what accountability looks like of which you have none. You had fraudsters defraud the state and the government of $9 million dollars and you got a fat contribution out of it. That is the truth. I will ask what I want, chair paul. This is all on the record. Did you bother to investigate all the money that you facilitated the fraud for?
▶ 1:42:37Sen. Hawley: Do you know where it went? I do because we heard testimony about it yesterday. Hundreds of millions to terrorist groups, to transnational criminal organizations, the drug trade, drug trafficking, child trafficking. And you took $10,000.
▶ 1:42:57Gen. Ellison: That is a lie.
▶ 1:42:59Sen. Hawley: Is 19. As early as 2019. Do not talk over me. It is my hearing, pal.
▶ 1:43:14Gen. Ellison: Don't call me pal.
▶ 1:43:18Sen. Hawley: I should call you prisoner because you should be in jail. In 2019 they came to you and refer to you fraud allegations and you blow them off. Your own newspaper --
▶ 1:43:31Gen. Ellison: That's a lie.
▶ 1:43:32Sen. Hawley: They brought concerns to the attorney general's office in 2018 and 2019 and you did nothing for years. The only action you took is when all of these fraudsters came to your office and offered you money, then you got involved. Then you took the money and you got involved.
▶ 1:43:49Gen. Ellison: They did not come to my office. You are completely wrong about that.
▶ 1:43:54Sen. Hawley: Met with them for 54 minutes and you also took and give your family money.
▶ 1:44:03Gen. Ellison: This is completely --
▶ 1:44:06Sen. Hawley: From the new york post. Minnesota ag keith ellison accepted campaign donations from individuals linked to the $250 million covid fraud scheme. You met with them on december 11 and on january 20, the fbi knocked over their headquarters. That is the sequence of events. You have been right at the center of this fraud from the beginning and you have enabled it. You should resign.
▶ 1:44:35Gen. Ellison: You should resign. I was thinking the same thing about you. I was thinking the exact same thing about you.
▶ 1:44:41Sen. Hawley: I'm sure after encountering this truth, you are because it hurts to have accountability. It hurts to have accountability.
▶ 1:44:49Chair Paul: Time is expired. Senator moreno.
▶ 1:44:57Sen. Moreno: I was expecting the next witness, somebody on the other side.
▶ 1:45:04Chair Paul: I made a mistake. Senator blumenthal.
▶ 1:45:09Sen. Blumenthal: Thanks, Mr. chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for being here this morning. General ellison, I want to ask you about law enforcement generally, especially as it applies here as former attorney general myself and a former U.S.
▶ 1:45:40Sen. Blumenthal: Attorney I am very concerned about the lack of working together. Not just coordination or cooperation but actually joint to work together here. This is routine. Law enforcement is not about red and blue. It is about trying to apprehend and prosecute wrongdoers to deter others and to punish the ones who did it.
▶ 1:46:07Sen. Blumenthal: We have been told this early morning that operation metro surge is over. But this issue is much bigger than just minneapolis. It is about an out-of-control agency that is imposing brutality and violence in neighborhoods across the country. The hearing that we held, the spotlight hearing last week, had witnesses who were shot and shot at, U.S.
▶ 1:46:36Sen. Blumenthal: Citizens with no criminal background whatsoever in chicago and california, this kind of brutality is happening across the country. I think it raises a national issue. I appreciate your leadership to try to bring some sanity and rationality here.
▶ 1:47:00Sen. Blumenthal: You were asked earlier by senator peters about the lack of cooperation in the investigations of renee good and alex pretti's death. Absolutely tragic. It is not just the lack of cooperation.
▶ 1:47:20Sen. Blumenthal: Hasn't the federal government actually impeded your efforts to investigate by withholding evidence that was provided by state and local authorities and now is being kept from you when you want to undertake a legitimate law enforcement investigation. Maybe you can talk about that.
▶ 1:47:44Gen. Ellison: We certainly hope the situation does change but up until now and on the good matter, we have been denied access to criminal -- critical evidence and the case to evaluate. Information like the car, the gun, shell casings, other critical information needed to complete an evaluation and we have not had access. We hope this changes. You mentioned tom homan.
▶ 1:48:13Gen. Ellison: I can tell you with secretary kristi noem and Mr. bovee know, we did not have any engagement or law. Perhaps now with somebody who has experience in law enforcement, we can make some progress, I am hopeful. But up until now the situation is as you described. We have been denied access to critical information. We need to complete an investigation.
▶ 1:48:38Sen. Blumenthal: The denial of information raises the issue of what is happening to that evidence. We now have tried cases that presenting it in court involves establishing a chain of custody so as to show there was no tampering with the evidence which is critical in crimes like the ones that allegedly were committed in the alleged murders of renee good and alex pretti.
▶ 1:49:08Sen. Blumenthal: That chain of custody, the preservation of the integrity of the evidence is critical to any prosecution or conviction. I am concerned that the failure to provide this evidence or to attest to a chain of custody amounts to a cover-up.
▶ 1:49:28Gen. Ellison: A lot of people in minnesota have used that word, senator. My hope is that we can move on from this. I think everyone who has ever done police investigation or crime investigation knows that there is a state interest and a federal interest. That is why collaboration is the norm.
▶ 1:49:51Gen. Ellison: Most people know that information has to be shared with everybody who has an interest in establishing truth in public safety. The fact that we have not been doing it in this situation, I am hoping that with the help of this committee, with the help of Mr. tom homan, that we will get to a better place. But so far, we have been denied.
▶ 1:50:17Gen. Ellison: It is deeply disappointing because as you know, anytime someone is killed in your state, you know that leaves a massive hole in the community and to simply not investigate, to say there is nothing to see here. We heard from the second most important official at the department of justice that they will not investigate the renee good case.
▶ 1:50:46Gen. Ellison: I would hope that this committee would say we do expect that anybody of any state who was killed in an officer-involved matter, that there will be an investigation and it will be fair and joint. And whatever the results are with the results are -- are what the results are.
▶ 1:51:11Gen. Ellison: The fact that large numbers of officials have quit in light of the recent conduct of the doj, this is all deeply disturbing and I hope we can turn a corner.
▶ 1:51:19Sen. Blumenthal: I appreciate the measure and insightful tone that you are bringing and the message of hope. You have used that term a number of times. The people of minnesota deserve hope that things will now change. And I hope that they will. I think the nation hopes that they will.
▶ 1:51:42Sen. Blumenthal: But in the meantime, the failure to investigate the good killing, in fact, I believe the investigation is focused on renee good's family in so far that there is any investigation, it is of her sister and possibly her family.
▶ 1:52:05Sen. Blumenthal: I find that absolutely abhorrent and income principal -- incomprehensible. I think there is a need for real reform in the department of homeland security which we are endeavoring to do with restraints and far-reaching overhaul of this agency that is right now out-of-control and needs to be reined in.
▶ 1:52:35Sen. Blumenthal: But in the focus on this action, minneapolis, I hope professionalism such as you have brought to this effort, will prevail. My thanks to you and Mr. schnell and Mr. niska for being here.
▶ 1:52:56Chair Paul: Senator moreno.
▶ 1:52:59Sen. Moreno: . Do you think that people who are here in this country illegally should be deported? Yes, or no.
▶ 1:53:11Rep. Niska: The rule of law, yes.
▶ 1:53:16Sen. Moreno: Mr. ellison?
▶ 1:53:20Gen. Ellison: If they have a pending asylum petition, it should be heard. If they have some basis for their presence in the country, ordinary due process should take place.
▶ 1:53:33Sen. Moreno: Just a quick question. If you enter the country illegally or you overstay a visa, should you be deported?
▶ 1:53:41Gen. Ellison: My simple answer is, it depends.
▶ 1:53:46Sen. Moreno: If somebody breaks into your home, should they be arrested or does that depend?
▶ 1:53:51Gen. Ellison: It is an entirely different scenario.
▶ 1:53:54Sen. Moreno: How is that?
▶ 1:53:56Gen. Ellison: Because immigration is essentially civil and breaking into my home is a criminal matter.
▶ 1:54:01Sen. Moreno: So there are laws that should be enforced? So we should not enforce civil violations?
▶ 1:54:07Gen. Ellison: We absolutely should.
▶ 1:54:09Sen. Moreno: But you just said it is a civil matter so it is different.
▶ 1:54:13Gen. Ellison: We enforce civil matters.
▶ 1:54:15Sen. Moreno: If someone commits a civil infraction, it should not be enforced?
▶ 1:54:19Gen. Ellison: It should be.
▶ 1:54:21Sen. Moreno: So they should be deported?
▶ 1:54:23Gen. Ellison: No they should have due process that is associated with their petition.
▶ 1:54:27Sen. Moreno: With the act of entering the country illegally, you think we should say did you really do it or not do it, it is pretty obvious, right?
▶ 1:54:35Gen. Ellison: It would depend on the facts of the situation.
▶ 1:54:38Sen. Moreno: I just gave you the facts. They entered the country without permission.
▶ 1:54:42Gen. Ellison: But what if they had a good faith basis to say that they would be persecuted in their home country and subjected to real oppression there under international law there are provisions for them to make a case.
▶ 1:54:55Sen. Moreno: That is a phenomenal point. Mexico and canada, do you consider those to be safe countries?
▶ 1:55:01Gen. Ellison: Generally I do.
▶ 1:55:03Sen. Moreno: Generally you do? You border with canada. Do not insult your neighbors to the north. Is a generally safe country?
▶ 1:55:13Gen. Ellison: Generally, yes.
▶ 1:55:14Sen. Moreno: So somebody seeking asylum could certainly be safe in canada and mexico, no?
▶ 1:55:20Gen. Ellison: We do know in mexico which is another country I truly admire and I think it is a wonderful country. But there have been cases of persecution.
▶ 1:55:32Sen. Moreno: People are not safe in mexico? Refugees cannot be safe mexico?
▶ 1:55:37Gen. Ellison: Some of them might not be.
▶ 1:55:39Sen. Moreno: Maybe we should have a free-trade agreement with them.
▶ 1:55:42Gen. Ellison: I did not say that but what I will say is we should hear their petition. We should at least hear it out. We should say is there a legitimate fear of persecution in your home country.
▶ 1:55:54Sen. Moreno: That cannot happen in mexico?
▶ 1:55:56Gen. Ellison: I think we should follow the international protocols that exist.
▶ 1:56:00Sen. Moreno: It is, which is that you seek asylum in the nearest country that you are seeking asylum in. It sounds to me that your answer is no. Mr. schnell?
▶ 1:56:11Mr. Schnell: Senator, if I were to answer yes or no, it would be misleading.
▶ 1:56:17Sen. Moreno: It is actually pretty staggering that the easiest question that I can possibly ask is confusing for the two of you. That is disgusting and I will tell you why. I was not born in this country.
▶ 1:56:33Sen. Moreno: My parents had to follow the rules to bring me and my siblings and I find it disgusting that the two of you want to reward people who skip the line, pay drug cartel members to smuggle them across the border, you are coached -- they are coached to say the right words when they had border patrol and by the way, the people who do that from my neck of the woods get abused, they get held at gunpoint because people like you say it is ok.
▶ 1:56:59Sen. Moreno: Maybe we will allow them enter the country when we should have a simple policy which is you cannot even enter our country illegally and you cannot overstate a visa. The fact that the two of you are a top law enforcement people and you cannot simply say that violating a civil or criminal offense is a problem is probably the origin of why we have these issues. Let's move on to something else. Mr.
▶ 1:57:25Sen. Moreno: Ellison, as the attorney general of the state of minnesota, you would never get elected in ohio, who is victoria harwell? You have not said her name. I am curious as to who she is.
▶ 1:57:34Gen. Ellison: Is that a question?
▶ 1:57:37Sen. Moreno: Who is she?
▶ 1:57:39Gen. Ellison: She is a very unfortunate tragic victim of a crime.
▶ 1:57:43Sen. Moreno: Ok and what have you done about it?
▶ 1:57:45Gen. Ellison: In minnesota I prosecute crimes --
▶ 1:57:50Sen. Moreno: What have you done for victoria harwell?
▶ 1:57:53Gen. Ellison: I'm talking about my jurisdiction.
▶ 1:57:56Sen. Moreno: I did not ask about your jurisdiction. Tell me what you, it may be the answer is nothing, just tell me what you have done for victoria harwell.
▶ 1:58:09Gen. Ellison: We have done everything that the law allows us to do.
▶ 1:58:13Sen. Moreno: She is an american citizen, right?
▶ 1:58:17Gen. Ellison: I assume so.
▶ 1:58:19Sen. Moreno: You have not even bothered to look into who she is?
▶ 1:58:22Gen. Ellison: I am telling you I don't know what her nationality is. It does not mean I don't know anything. It means I don't know that.
▶ 1:58:30Sen. Moreno: Thank you for your concern for her family. It is obviously pretty sad that the attorney general of the state of minnesota has not even bothered to understand who she is. You have not mentioned her testimony. But you know who renee good and alex pretti are. Obviously your priorities are obvious. Tell me about temple of israel.
▶ 1:58:52Gen. Ellison: A deer friend of mine is the lead rabbi at temple of israel. Do you have something in mind you would like to bring up?
▶ 1:59:02Sen. Moreno: Any particular instance of anti-semitism?
▶ 1:59:06Gen. Ellison: There have been acts of anti-semitism there that I have opposed vigorously. We support law enforcement doing the right thing in those communities. You are asking me about a place I know a lot about. I have been to temple of israel an untold number of times so if they have any security concerns, that is a concern of mine. Absolutely.
▶ 1:59:29Sen. Moreno: What have you actually done differently to help fight anti-semitism in minnesota?
▶ 1:59:33Gen. Ellison: I speak against anti-semitism. I condemn it as repugnant and wrong.
▶ 1:59:40Sen. Moreno: Will you condemn louis farrakhan's comments saying that judaism is a dirty religion?
▶ 1:59:52Gen. Ellison: You know, I thought I was coming here to talk about immigration policies.
▶ 1:59:53Sen. Moreno: That was a layup question.
▶ 1:59:55Gen. Ellison: I thought I was talking about immigration policy. I did not know we would be talking about all of these matters. I am reluctant -- we already have one thing where we did not mention immigration policy at all. I am fine with you asking questions around asylum and things like that. That makes sense to me. But now we are going on in all different directions. There should be some scope to this hearing. Thank you for your interest.
▶ 2:00:23Gen. Ellison: We both share a need to condemn anti-semitism.
▶ 2:00:27Sen. Moreno: A few of my colleagues have gone over time. I find it disgusting that we have a witness who is the attorney general of a state that will not condemn the fact that somebody said that judaism is a dirty religion. The fact that we have a witness of that low caliber here before the united states congress is an insult to this institution.
▶ 2:00:46Chair Paul: I would like to put a finer point on one of the things that you asked because the responses were that they say to process had not been completed. Let's say due process is completed. There is a final order. Their only crime is being in the country illegally. Mr. schnell, but you advise police to assist in a final order and the only crime is that they are in the country illegally?
▶ 2:01:13Mr. Schnell: If there is judicial order, absolutely, we should comply.
▶ 2:01:17Chair Paul: Attorney general ellison?
▶ 2:01:19Gen. Ellison: Certainly.
▶ 2:01:21Chair Paul: I think that is unclear. That may be from Mr. schnell's point of view but from the edex coming down, I don't think it is clear. People have the feeling you don't want any cooperation with I.c.e. On someone who is here illegally. As we look at this, if we only say, if we are democrats and we only say it is I.c.e. And we do not say the cooperation had anything to do with it, I am not saying it justifies bad behavior.
▶ 2:01:53Chair Paul: But I have not gotten the feeling and I know it is contentious but I have not gotten the feeling that you are willing to accept some responsibility for the lack of cooperation escalating this problem.
▶ 2:02:04Gen. Ellison: Can I respond, senator? Before operation metro surge we were, I.c.e. Was operating in a cooperative way in minnesota. People may or may not like the way they were operating but they were operating legally and with cooperation. It is this traumatic escalation that has caused problems.
▶ 2:02:34Gen. Ellison: You are recommending that I try to be more clear. I will certainly take that to heart but this surge is in fact a very serious issue.
▶ 2:02:41Chair Paul: It is not without criticism. I am saying there has to be -- there is the sense in the country and in minnesota that you would -- that you are opposed to deporting someone that you don't want anyone to enforce it, that you don't want the police to be involved. I think it is necessary.
▶ 2:03:01Chair Paul: If you do believe the police should cooperate, to say publicly that the police of minneapolis will cooperate, it is the way we will get to less I.c.e. By having to officers go with one I.c.e. Agent to arrest people, that you are for that. I cannot tell you what to say. I want -- I do not want more people to be injured or killed. I am sorry to interrupt. Senator ernst.
▶ 2:03:31Sen. Ernst: Thank you Mr. chair and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today to testify on government oversight. While I will not be focusing on I.c.e. And all of those issues, those are significant issues, I've focus on a lot of issues that come down to fraud within the federal government. I want to thank you all for being here. Really appreciate your time.
▶ 2:04:03Sen. Ernst: I will set the stage. We have a lot of families like mine who live in iowa, minnesota. I come from a blue-collar working family, farm family. My parents worked very hard. They're very -- their parents worked very hard to get where they are today. I am very privileged to sit here today. My sister works for a trucking company. She and her husband are farmers.
▶ 2:04:29Sen. Ernst: My brother is a blue-collar labor union worker for the railroad. Every one of their tax dollars needs to be protected because they work darn hard in all types of weather. They work outside. They don't have the privilege of sitting in an office working 9- 5.
▶ 2:04:53Sen. Ernst: What we have found in the federal government through years of the work that I have done on oversight is that one out of every 10 dollars that americans send it to the federal government is squandered away and lost in fraud. One out of every $10. So there is no time to waste in giving americans peace of mind about how we use their hard earned dollars.
▶ 2:05:23Sen. Ernst: We have seen examples like the quality leering center in minnesota recently but this is happening in every single state. It is not just minnesota. It is every single state. I would like to submit my squeal award to minnesota governor walz for the state's massive fraud ring, for the record.
▶ 2:05:51Chair Paul: Without objection.
▶ 2:05:54Sen. Ernst: I am putting together a package of pragmatic bipartisan, bipartisan proposals because I have friends on the other side of the aisle will see this as a massive scam against the american public. They see this and they want to deal with it. They want to prevent waste from ever occurring again.
▶ 2:06:19Sen. Ernst: For too long congress has pretended to search for who is actually responsible for the amount of fraud and waste in programs after those funds have already gone out to the states and localities. It is almost like a problem scooby doo and the mystery gang might face. Well, the mystery is solved. Congress is responsible.
▶ 2:06:48Sen. Ernst: By allowing weak incentives for states and localities after the grant funds are disbursed, fraud is able to increase more easily and it is harder to recoup improperly used taxpayer dollars. Representative niska, too often the federal government write the check and then looks the other way.
▶ 2:07:13Sen. Ernst: How should congress redesign incentives to ensure states have real skin in the game and safeguards taxpayer dollars once those funds have left washington, D.C.?
▶ 2:07:26Rep. Niska: Thank you, senator. People respond to incentives. Immoral people respond to incentives. Unfortunately we have had both in federal programs but especially the way the walls of administration and attorney general ellison have overseen those programs, we have seen an enormous loss of important taxpayer dollars.
▶ 2:07:50Rep. Niska: We should tightening up eligibility requirements, making sure that states and local governments are going on checking whether meals are being served, feeding the future fraud scandal was a situation where there were sites that were supposedly feeding kids where nobody could have fed them. If minnesota officials including attorney general ellison' offices which was involved in litigation at the time, had just gone out and checked, they would have found those problems.
▶ 2:08:19Rep. Niska: The problem is that attorney general ellison has fought to cover up the records for the investigative files he has fought in the courts and legislatures so that he does not have to disclose what happens in those investigations. That needs to change as well. Absolutely the federal government needs to be overseeing our taxpayer dollars and making sure that states administering those programs are doing it better than minnesota has done. It has been a complete failure.
▶ 2:08:47Sen. Ernst: Thank you. Attorney general ellison, under your watch unfortunately minnesota has achieved the largest covid fraud scheme in american history. Under your watch those whistleblowers who brought attention to the fraud and waste in your state faced retaliation.
▶ 2:09:08Sen. Ernst: Under your watch billions of tax dollars intended for unemployment insurance supporting hungry children as described, children with autism, providing housing for the most vulnerable, keeping small businesses afloat through covid and more, all of those dollars were funneled away into fraudulent schemes.
▶ 2:09:31Sen. Ernst: Last month in an interview with cnn you were asked if your office has done enough to stop the fraud and you responded, of course we have done enough. "of course we have done enough and we are doing more every single day. This is a political matter. This is not a serious thing." those are your words.
▶ 2:09:54Gen. Ellison: They are.
▶ 2:09:56Sen. Ernst: How do I go back to my hard-working brother and sister and every other american who is going out there and sending their taxpayer dollars to washington, D.C. only to have it squandered away in fraud? How do we respond to them and how do we recoup those dollars from these programs that minnesota should have been overseeing?
▶ 2:10:22Gen. Ellison: Thank you. I believe you are trying to look out for taxpayer dollars. I'm here to tell you that of course we are here to hold people accountable who commit fraud. I have convicted over 300 people since I've been ag for medicaid fraud. I am with you in trying to protect the public dollar.
▶ 2:10:47Gen. Ellison: What I was saying is that rather than coming together to stop fraud on a bipartisan basis, the matter has been turned into a political football which I bet you would agree, it should not be. We should come together to protect the public dollar and it should not be somebody's campaign ad. We should do it together. First of all, you know I can only prosecute crimes that the county attorney gives me or that the governor assigns me.
▶ 2:11:16Gen. Ellison: I do not have authority to just prosecute who I want.
▶ 2:11:19Sen. Ernst: I am over time. Thank you for that.
▶ 2:11:22Gen. Ellison: I'm here to help and work with you.
▶ 2:11:25Sen. Ernst: What we need is your governor to step up to the plate and any crime that needs to be prosecuted, it needs to be done. The american taxpayer is tired of their dollars being funneled out of their pockets into the pockets of scammers.
▶ 2:11:44Chair Paul: I think you are right. Senator moody.
▶ 2:11:48Sen. Moody: Thank you for holding this hearing. Thank you to the witnesses. This is the most pressing issue facing our country because of what we have seen the last four years, 11 million people were pushed into our country. Some estimates have it up to 20 million.
▶ 2:12:18Sen. Moody: Many of them did not come through checkpoints. They just came across without any checking in or any process and many of those had criminal histories before they got here. This is a hard question to answer but it should be easy. You are the attorney general of minnesota.
▶ 2:12:38Gen. Ellison: What question is that?
▶ 2:12:41Sen. Moody: You are the attorney general of the state of minnesota.
▶ 2:12:45Gen. Ellison: Obviously. I was introduced that way.
▶ 2:12:48Sen. Moody: I was trying to get that on the record because you did not answer senator hawley. I was the attorney general for the state of florida. Easy answer. I want to take us back to 2021 when biden reversed the president of democrat and republican presidents going back in modern history and changed whether or not they would deport people here illegally who had committed felonies, do you remember when that executive order came out where they said
▶ 2:13:21Sen. Moody: Very specifically they were changing whether or not they would be deporting people here illegally committing felonies. Do you remember that?
▶ 2:13:26Gen. Ellison: I cannot say I have a tight recollection of that.
▶ 2:13:31Sen. Moody: I remember because I was the attorney general which is often referred to as the top cop or top law-enforcement official in the state. I remember because I was desperately getting calls from sheriffs around the state saying I have someone in here for burglary or drug trafficking, whatever. They are canceling detainers. Do you remember anybody coming to you and saying they are canceling detainers?
▶ 2:13:56Gen. Ellison: I remember we had a robust conversation around a range of issues and what we did is evaluated minnesota law and share that information.
▶ 2:14:05Sen. Moody: What I mean by that is under the biden administration, mayorkas and everyone working on immigration started systematically breaking down the border and not only that which allowed for the 12 million to come in, not only that, they started telling law enforcement officials around the nation who had in their custody people here illegally committing crimes, do not hold them anymore.
▶ 2:14:29Sen. Moody: We will abandon precent and we are going to stop holding people here illegally committing crimes, do not detain them because that is not our policy anymore. So what did I do as the top law enforcement official in the state of florida, as the attorney general? I sued the biden administration immediately and fought back because my law enforcement officials had to trust me that I would fight for the safety of our communities.
▶ 2:14:57Sen. Moody: It just came out recently after we had to bear the devastation to this country as related to immigration and crimes in our community under the biden administration that the trump administration said that we had gotten out of your state tens of thousands is that a good thing or bad thing? >> I'm sorry.
▶ 2:15:27Sen. Moody: Are you asking me if committing crimes is a bad thing? The answer is yes. >> the trump administration said they removed 10,000 people that backgrounds. Is that a good thing or bad thing? >> if you're asking me -- are you asking me to rely on with the trump administration has said?
▶ 2:15:47Sen. Moody: Assume it is true because I think he will debate me on this. They have removed tens of thousands of people across the country that are here illegally to have committed crimes. Is that a good thing or bad thing? >> I agree with the premise we should remove the worst of the worst who are not authorized to be in the united states and commit crimes.
▶ 2:16:12Sen. Moody: If they had committed burglary, should they be removed? What was that? >> ma'am, look. I think I answered your question. If you are asking me if somebody commits a crime at -- if somebody commits a crime -- if somebody commits a felony offense. Sen.
▶ 2:16:36Sen. Moody: Moody if they are drug trafficking and they are in minnesota and they are here illegally, should they be deported? >> have they been convicted? Sen. moody let's assume they have. >> yeah. Sen. moody if they have been broken into homes or committed theft or let me go as far as I get there committed fraud and they are here illegally, should they be deported? >> have they been convicted? Sen.
▶ 2:17:04Sen. Moody: Moody if they are in the process and have a background -- a criminal conviction for any crime, should they be deported? >> people convicted and are not authorized to be in the country should be removed.
▶ 2:17:13Sen. Moody: If they have an application in process or the claimed asylum, should they be removed? >> don't we need to find -- yes.
▶ 2:17:27Sen. Moody: If the process is pending, should they be removed? >> if they are unauthorized to be in the country, they should be removed.
▶ 2:17:35Sen. Moody: What it shot the federal government when in january of 2026 you said,", january of 2026 you said," we will not help the trump administration. We will not avoid the resources of our state -- devote the resources of our state to help the trump administration. That is not our business. We are not going to do their bidding." >> I'm glad you asked me.
▶ 2:17:58Sen. Moody: What a surprise the administration who is trying to go back and read communities of people here illegally that are committing crimes to have the top law-enforcement officer of the state say we will not help them.
▶ 2:18:13Attn. Gen. Ellison: The federal government is government of enumerated powers.
▶ 2:18:21Sen. Moody: Should you help people remove people who committed a crime?
▶ 2:18:30Attn. Gen. Ellison: We should obey minnesota and federal law. That is what we should do.
▶ 2:18:31Sen. Moody: You think you have seven counties that have entered into 287-g. Florida has everyone of our counties signed up to help the administration read our communities of those that are here illegally committing crimes.
▶ 2:18:49Attn. Gen. Ellison: It would either surprise me and not surprise me. States are different.
▶ 2:18:51Sen. Moody: You have a top cop that will not help read the community of those here illegally committing crimes. If the tale of two states, the above two attorneys general and how this is all playing out. It should surprise no one in this country. In fact, let me go further.
▶ 2:19:12Sen. Moody: It should surprise no one in this country that the problems we have had in your state as a result of a top cop not working with law enforcement to make its community safe and rid people committing crimes, that you have seen what has played out.
▶ 2:19:28Attn. Gen. Ellison: That is quite wrong. I certainly disagree with that.
▶ 2:19:33Sen. Moody: Teachers are here supporting antifa with the expectation you will have a civilized community that works with federal law enforcement to deport criminals here illegally committing crimes. That is a joke. It's also the reason why you have a crisis in law enforcement ranks, such a high vacancy rate in your state, because no one that wears a badge and does these dangerous jobs believes their top cop supports them.
▶ 2:20:02Sen. Moody: As the wife of a law-enforcement officer, I think that is a shame in your state deserves better.
▶ 2:20:09Attn. Gen. Ellison: I thought we were going to have a real conversation. Now they know that you don't want one. Congratulations.
▶ 2:20:18Chair Paul: This concludes our first panel. I would like to thank our witnesses for participating. We will not transition to the second panel momentarily. Do you have the second?
▶ 2:24:26Chair Paul: We will begin the second panel. I would like to welcome joseph at low, rodney scott, and todd lyons, senior official performing the duties at the director of U.S. immigration customs enforcement. Will each of you please stay and raise your right hand.
▶ 2:24:54Chair Paul: Do you swear the testimony you will give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, set help you god? You may be seated. The opening statements have been submitted for the record. We will play a video that has been authenticated. The audio has been reduced except for the sound of the gunshots at the end. We advise the audience not to be startled by the gunshots at the end.
▶ 2:25:38Chair Paul: Society grants the use of lethal force to various police agencies. That grant is not carte blanche. It comes with serious conditions. The grant to use lethal force is so ominous that society only allows it to be used in rare occasions. Today we explore the rules of engagement, the rules for the proper use of force and the rules for the use of force that are proportional to the threat.
▶ 2:26:08Chair Paul: My goal is not to condemn or argue to defund I.c.e. My goal is to restore public trust. If we don't admit there's a problem we will not get anywhere. Witness the thousands of people in the streets in minneapolis and the millions of viewers who witnessed the recent deaths. It is clearly evident that the public trust has been lost. To restore trust in I.c.e.
▶ 2:26:33Chair Paul: And border patrol they must be honest and forthright with the rules of engagement and pledged to reform. I hope the leadership of I.c.e. And border patrol today will participate in a meaningful way in the discussion on the proper use of force. We can roll the video. Begin to roll the video.
▶ 2:27:05Chair Paul: Stop. What we see is the beginning of the encounter with alexander pretti. He is filming in the middle of the street. We see two women that are as you watch the video jawboning and complaining and protesting and yelling. Maybe not being nice but they are protesting. Let's keep the video stopped. My question to Mr. scott first, is yelling at I.c.e.
▶ 2:27:33Chair Paul: Officers or border patrol a form of domestic assault on the officers ?
▶ 2:27:40Mr. Scott: No sir.
▶ 2:27:42Mr. Lyons: No it is not.
▶ 2:27:45Chair Paul: This filming of I.c.e. For border patrol either an assault or a crime?
▶ 2:27:52Mr. Scott: No sir.
▶ 2:27:53Mr. Lyons: No sir.
▶ 2:27:55Chair Paul: Let's roll. >> a question. We are seeing alex pretti here if we went a little further. He is just holding a phone here, correct? Is that what you are seeing like the rest of us?
▶ 2:28:13Mr. Scott: That is what I have seen in the video up to that point.
▶ 2:28:19Sen. Peters: I just want to be clear he's only holding a phone.
▶ 2:28:21Chair Paul: Let's roll it a little further forward. All right. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going past this. Stop. What we have seen is the two women. We don't know what they were saying. I don't think that is audible on anything. They were probably yelling, protesting at the officers.
▶ 2:28:53Chair Paul: I don't think they touched them in any way. Is it appropriate or appropriate use of force to show the woman to the ground here, Mr. scott?
▶ 2:29:03Mr. Scott: I can't answer that because the video doesn't not show everything that led up to it. The investigation is ongoing. We don't have it from this video.
▶ 2:29:13Chair Paul: Let's say hypothetically they were yelling at one of your officers. Is it ok to violently show them to the ground?
▶ 2:29:22Mr. Scott: Mr. scott: no sir.
▶ 2:29:22Mr. Lyons: No sir.
▶ 2:29:26Sen. Peters: We see the shot here and I think we will see her go to the ground and the image going forward. We want you to verify that. You know she gets pressed to the ground, Mr. scott. I have before me the policy for homeland security where de-escalation tactics should be employed to minimize the likelihood of the use of additional force.
▶ 2:29:57Sen. Peters: Agents shall employ de-escalation tactics and techniques. Would you consider pushing a woman down to the ground a de-escalation tactic?
▶ 2:30:11Mr. Scott: They can be depending on the circumstances. If the officer thinks doing that will prevent any kind of a physical encounter, if there's a weapon -- I'm not saying there is but in certain cases using hand-to-hand is a de-escalation.
▶ 2:30:19Sen. Peters: This woman who we can all look at with our eyes and this is frustrating for the american people and the 90% of people to look at these videos. She's clearly trying to get away. These shelves her pretty violently to the ground. Looking at that, would you think that is not de-escalation? Or you cannot answer that?
▶ 2:30:41Mr. Scott: I'm not justifying the action. I don't have enough information to say it is or it is not.
▶ 2:30:47Chair Paul: What's important about the encounter is not the specifics of the investigation. It's about what your officers are trained to do. They are watching. Some are in the audience and hopefully some are watching at home. They need to know. They need it explicit. People said -- part of dhs and part of the administration said yes, the officers used de-escalation tactics. Nobody believes that.
▶ 2:31:18Chair Paul: I'm just going to stipulate that. No one in america believes shoving that woman's face in the snow was de-escalation. Your officers need to know they had a verbal encounter. She did not place her hands on the officers. She was not trying to get their weapon. It is not great. I don't like to see these encounters either.
▶ 2:31:43Chair Paul: Is it appropriate for the officers to respond to a verbal barrage of words or whatever -- proper to physically throw a woman down or throw anyone down?
▶ 2:31:55Mr. Scott: If the only action is verbal, no.
▶ 2:31:58Mr. Lyons: Same answer.
▶ 2:31:59Chair Paul: Do you have another point on this? Let's move on further. Here at this point she is on the ground. This looks like not an offense of move -- offensive move. Holding his hand up to be sprayed.
▶ 2:32:25Chair Paul: The problem on so many of these issues, not just this one, all the images is people being held and sprayed in the eyes with the stuff. I know it depends on the circumstances but there has got to be a better policy. You guys have to figure it out. There was a stark contrast when we see the array of I.c.e. Agents and border patrol in the minneapolis state police. It is not an easy job. I have two retired policemen that were coming.
▶ 2:32:56Chair Paul: Being a police man is not an easy job. The minneapolis police were standing there stoically with her arms crossed. You can say without getting -- they were not getting crap thrown at them but they were also not launching teargas and pepper spray. What is the policy, Mr. scott, for how we use pepper spray? Now we, how the agents use pepper spray and when?
▶ 2:33:29Mr. Scott: They should be using it when there is active resistance were trying to de-escalate and prevent using some other type of a weapon or tool.
▶ 2:33:34Chair Paul: Right. Why don't we move forward?
▶ 2:33:40Sen. Peters: We are all seeing the same thing. This is the questions the american people have because they have heard a lot from the administration, especially early on. Their eyes tell them something completely different. What we saw here is that we saw an agent pepper spray Mr. pretti at close range. Everybody saw that? Still just had a phone in his hand.
▶ 2:34:08Sen. Peters: He puts his hand up to basically protect his face from being sprayed. Is that what you see? Is there something we are missing here?
▶ 2:34:18Mr. Scott: I would have to watch the video again for that last statement.
▶ 2:34:20Sen. Peters: Can we do that?
▶ 2:34:21Chair Paul: We can show the last 20 seconds again.
▶ 2:34:31Sen. Peters: A little bit more. Keep going a little more. Right there. We saw the agent grabbed him. Grabbed him. Pulled away with the spray and is putting up his hand like, my god, you are going to spray me in the face.
▶ 2:34:48Chair Paul: We have had more than one problem here. I understand you not wanting to make conclusions yet. Nobody believes you are going to -- because you make conclusions immediately, not you, but people in the government make conclusions medially that it was a terrorist and assassin and people are not believing it will be an honest investigation. It's also been quite a while. I am very pro-law enforcement.
▶ 2:35:17Chair Paul: I don't think as terrible as it is it is something that is a crime. I think is terrible police work. There has to be repercussions. He is retreating at every moment. He is trying to get away and sprayed in the face. I don't think that is the escalatory. That is an escalatory thing.
▶ 2:35:36Chair Paul: While cover gassing -- pepper gas might be a de-escalation, but if we come back with the resulted people say we look at it and nobody is to blame for anything and no changes, I think it destroys the trust in I.c.e. You want trust in I.c.e. And federal agents? We have to restore that. It does not mean we have to do something inappropriate to these agents. Some of the stuff is inexcusable. It will take conclusions.
▶ 2:36:11Chair Paul: I don't know if the american public even believes there can be an honest assessment. Who is doing the investigation?
▶ 2:36:20Mr. Scott: Multiple agencies are doing the investigation. The fbi, fbi civil rights, I.c.e., and the cbp office of professional responsibly. Their role is to preserve the evidence and focus on what you are talking about. The administrator of aspects and the training aspects to make sure we are constantly getting better and better. The credible aspects are the fbi. There is a lot of other video and bodycam video that is being looked at.
▶ 2:36:48Mr. Scott: Until all the evidence is evaluated I cannot jump to a conclusion on either direction. I would ask america to do the same thing. I am committed to transparency to make sure all the information is made public when it is appropriate.
▶ 2:37:01Chair Paul: So you will release the officers' cameras?
▶ 2:37:05Mr. Scott: Yes.
▶ 2:37:06Chair Paul: Let's roll forward. We can stop. It goes on. He is trying to protect his eyes but he is still back filming. On the back of his heels.
▶ 2:37:30Chair Paul: At no time in the encounter do you see him try to strike an officer, nor does he brandish a weapon which was alleged as well. We are going through this. It is like they will say he's resisting. I don't see any resistance. It is hard to tell when you have six people on you and you are moving if you are resisting. The natural instinct is when six people are on top of you you are trying to move, not placid.
▶ 2:38:01Chair Paul: Especially when they spray him several times. Not even a hint of something that was aggressive on his part. Everything was retreat. He was in the street and retreats. The woman is pushed to the ground. He tries to assist the woman and he's violently sprayed and it continues. I don't think this should take months and months and years and years. There needs to be a conclusion.
▶ 2:38:28Chair Paul: Tom homan being there now saying we will reduce the presence of the street is a good sign and a good step forward. I'm glad that's happening. I think that is de-escalation. True de-escalation in a diplomatic way. We need to have answers and that needs to be an announcement that these are the new policies. This is how we will interact with the public. The public needs to know. If I go to a protest and I shout something a people, could I be killed? Let's go a little further on in the video.
▶ 2:39:16Chair Paul: [gunshots] we can stop there. One of the theories initially that I'm assuming is not true but I like confirmation is that as the gun was taken from him and actually discharged.
▶ 2:39:52Chair Paul: That is under the fbi purview with the ongoing investigation. I cannot answer the question.
▶ 2:39:59Chair Paul: Go a little further.
▶ 2:40:20Sen. Peters: Will we saw there and make sure we are seeing this, that the officer basically started to beat him with pepper spray canister at that point. That is right before we stopped that. Is beating some of the spray can -- canister the escalatory -- de-escalatory? Taken from this incident, if you saw someone beating some of the canister on the ground?
▶ 2:40:53Mr. Scott: I see is subject who is fighting back nonstop. I don't know what they are saying and what's going on in the situation. I know they are being interviewed about what's going on and that will be part of the official record. I can't answer whether that's appropriate or not and it depends what an officer saw that time.
▶ 2:41:16Sen. Peters: Do you train someone to beat them with a canister? >> may ask a process question here? Are the people in those videos not entitled to fifth and 14th and emmett protections -- amendment protections and due process? We are at a place in time where we have a video that is the entirety of what is guilt or not guilt. It puts us in a very --
▶ 2:41:46Chair Paul: I don't think anyone is assessing. We are asking for the proper use of force for all agents. The answers have been generic answers.
▶ 2:41:59Sen. Moreno: As they should be. These american citizens who are entitled to fifth and 14th amendment protections and for us to make certain we keep that in mind as we asked these conclusive questions.
▶ 2:42:12Chair Paul: They do for a court of law and any criminal proceedings, they deserve that. We will move onto to the first round of questions. I will pass mind to senator johnson and I will reclaim my letter.
▶ 2:42:25Sen. Johnson: Other witnesses providing testimony?
▶ 2:42:32Chair Paul: They have been taken for the record. They gave the same public testimony yesterday.
▶ 2:42:35Sen. Johnson: I wanted to hear from them. Sen. sein terms of the level minnesota was cooperating with I.c.e. And customs and border patrol.
▶ 2:43:03Sen. Johnson: Were you listening to that opening panel?
▶ 2:43:06Sen. Johnson: Commissioner scott , what would you agree or disagree with in terms of what was said in the first panel in terms of the cooperation or lack of cooperation? According to attorney general ellison, they were perfectly cooperating and there should not have been problems.
▶ 2:43:27Sen. Johnson: The statement he used was it was because the unprecedented nature -- let me get the -- again, it was because the scale of the surge caused the problems versus minnesota cooperating or not cooperating.
▶ 2:43:48Mr. Scott: That is not accurate at all. I met up with tom homan and we had a conversation. The reason cdp surged resources into minneapolis is because I.c.e. Could not do a rest being violently assaulted. They were not getting support from state and local law enforcement.
▶ 2:44:05Sen. Johnson: Talked about the kind of arrests. I did not get the answer from prisons. As long as there is a judicial order. Does he mean from an article three-judge? Is he talking about the administrative law judges we use for enforcement of I.c.e.? Was that a distinction?
▶ 2:44:33Sen. Johnson: Are they only going to cooperate with article three judicial orders? Did they concede the fact we handle federal immigration law through the administrative law judges?
▶ 2:44:45Mr. Scott: I would defer to I.c.e. On with the normal processes were.
▶ 2:44:49Mr. Lyons: I can speak to that. Judicial and administrative. They do not cooperate.
▶ 2:44:56Sen. Johnson: Please give me multiple examples.
▶ 2:44:59Mr. Lyons: I.c.e. Enforcement operations and homeland security investigations did execute a criminal warrant for an individual from ecuador who fled the state of connecticut that was wanted for the rape of a 14-year-old minor. He had a murder warrant from ecuador. We did not have cooperation with that. Going back to the surge --
▶ 2:45:23Sen. Johnson: Describe no cooperation. You have this you got this morning from someone who is convicted of a violent crime -- this warrant from someone who was convicted of a violent crime. Talk about this incident.
▶ 2:45:44Mr. Scott: He fled the state of connecticut after a detainer was not honored in connecticut. He was wanted for rape of a minor.
▶ 2:45:53Sen. Johnson: But he was not convicted.
▶ 2:45:58Mr. Scott: It was an actual criminal warrant from the state of connecticut. That suspect was wanted for a warrant for homicide in his own country.
▶ 2:46:10Sen. Johnson: Again, they were making the point he has to be convicted. It was a crime -- was the person convicted of a crime? Is that a valid criteria?
▶ 2:46:36Sen. Johnson: As long as this person has been convicted of a crime, that is not required. If a person is here illegally, there is a warrant from a different country as well as connecticut. For this individual, what did minnesota not do? What was requested of minnesota?
▶ 2:46:55Mr. Scott: The minneapolis police department and st. Paul police department by city orders, they do not cooperate with us. We asked them to hold a perimeter. We would have to hold down that city block. Unfortunately those vehicles do stick out. Obviously be used based on the sub specks criminal history, we used an armored vehicle. Agitators started coming to the scene.
▶ 2:47:22Mr. Scott: That law will try to effectuate a criminal arrest warrant. We have to go ahead and hold down the outer perimeter where if we had the cooperation of state and local agency to work with those on that fact, we would not have to have that many.
▶ 2:47:35Sen. Johnson: Why weren't officials interested in arresting this individual with multiple warrants? Just because he was an illegal immigrant?
▶ 2:47:43Mr. Scott: Because it involves an I.c.e. Operation.
▶ 2:47:46Sen. Johnson: An american citizen with that kind of warrant, the local police would have been doing this job themselves?
▶ 2:47:52Mr. Scott: I would assume so. I was a cop before I.c.e. And that is what we did.
▶ 2:48:02Sen. Johnson: Talk about the threats against I.c.e. Officers. That is where I have a great deal of sympathy for people trying to enforce the law. They had been shot at. They have had rocks thrown at their vehicles. If you become a police chiefs, you get a dvd from the drug cartels of your wife and children going to school and church. An exclusive threat.
▶ 2:48:32Sen. Johnson: There is such a demand for unmasking I.c.e. Officers what they have been doxxed. Talk about the violence, threats, the doxing that law enforcement officers are really under.
▶ 2:48:47Mr. Lyons: If you look at the beginning of operations from january 20 until april, I.c.e. Agents wore masks. The week that charlie kirk was assassinated, there was a tweet that went out that said, "kill charlie kirk and kill todd lyons." yesterday after the testimony on tuesday, I went back to numerous death threats against my family.
▶ 2:49:18Mr. Lyons: The cartels have actually posted the schematics to my home. We actually did an operation with the secret service where we identified doxers who put up on telephone polls the home addresses and schools where I.c.e. Agents went to but nobody covered that operation. I don't want my office is wearing masks. I will work with this committee to work with holding individuals accountable because ice agents do not want to be masked.
▶ 2:49:49Mr. Lyons: But the threats against their families are real.
▶ 2:49:51Sen. Johnson: Thank you.
▶ 2:49:52Chair Paul: Senator peters.
▶ 2:49:55Sen. Peters: We just watched on video american citizens being manhandled and pushed and beaten with canisters. 90 plus percent of americans have seen the video.
▶ 2:50:18Sen. Peters: Alex pretti was shot 10 times while laying face down, in the back by law enforcement officers. We also know he was holding a phone, being manhandled and shot 10 times. I want to confirm with you, filming federal officers on a public street is not illegal, is it? >> correct. >> no, sire/ r.
▶ 2:50:47Sen. Peters: He did not attempt to harm law enforcement. Is that correct?
▶ 2:50:52Mr. Scott: I don't know what happened when he was on the ground.
▶ 2:50:56Sen. Peters: When he was lying face down with several people on top of him?
▶ 2:51:00Mr. Scott: I am not making excuses. I cannot jump to that conclusion because I don't know what happened on the ground. That is why there is an ongoing investigation. Standing up, I would agree with what you said.
▶ 2:51:11Sen. Peters: When he is on the ground with a bunch of officers on top of him after he has been hit with a canister, he is somehow still possibly a harm to our enforcement?
▶ 2:51:20Mr. Scott: That has happened thousands of times, yes.
▶ 2:51:25Sen. Peters: Mr. lyons, that is a possible threat?
▶ 2:51:29Mr. Lyons: That was not a I.c.e. Operation.
▶ 2:51:33Sen. Peters: I get it. You are a highly trained professional.
▶ 2:51:37Mr. Lyons: Yes. Obviously there is not enough evidence but I can speak for I.c.e. Professional responsibility and cbp that we have to have a full investigation.
▶ 2:51:50Sen. Peters: You have to have a full investigation. What everybody saw in the video, there might be some extenuating circumstances. The video is very clear. Yet we have the trump administration claiming that he was attempting to inflict mass casualties. You have to explain how you came to that and how the trump administration came to that conclusion when you cannot even come to the conclusion that he might have been resisting when he was on his back being beaten.
▶ 2:52:19Sen. Peters: How did they come to the fact that he was going to have mass casualties and then secretary noem said he was committing an act of domestic terrorism. Is that what you train your officers, someone lying on the ground is an act of domestic terrorism? Did you provide secretary noem with an assessment of what alex pretti was engaged in? Is that why she said that?
▶ 2:52:50Sen. Peters: Was that your belief at that time even though you did an awful lot of investigation. Are you the ones who told her that? >> no. >> no.
▶ 2:53:01Sen. Peters: Did either of you provide this assessment to secretary noem that this was a mass casualty or he was attempting to inflict mass casualties and domestic terrorism? Did someone on her staff told her that? >> not to my knowledge.
▶ 2:53:14Sen. Peters: Why would she tell the public that this was an act of domestic terrorism when right in the heat of the moment. How could she possibly come to that conclusion to tell the american public that when they are watching this video?
▶ 2:53:29Mr. Scott: I cannot speculate on what someone else would say or why.
▶ 2:53:34Mr. Lyons: I cannot speculate to what the secretary thought.
▶ 2:53:37Sen. Peters: It seems to be a really big question which means we have to have secretary noem here. She deserves -- the american people deserve to have the secretary, the person who was responsible, who you are responsible to and all the men and women of I.c.e. Answer to her. She needs to be before this committee. She has not accepted prior invitations to come to this committee. I would hope that the chairman will invite her because this is an important question.
▶ 2:54:06Sen. Peters: How could you come to those conclusions before any evidence was there even after all that has happened? You two are telling me you don't have enough evidence even though it is so clear on the video. It should have looked really clear to her if she looked at the video. A lot of this was posted quickly. How she came to those conclusions, I don't expect you to know that. You did not provide any information to her which makes me question it even more if she got no information from you in the chain of command.
▶ 2:54:37Sen. Peters: How would you come up with that kind of narrative if the chain of command was not doing it? Acting director lyons, we have seen multiple instances of dhs personnel jumping out of unmarked cars, weapons drawn, they are wearing masks, no clear identification. This will immediately escalate an encounter with the public. There is no way around it that it is not escalatory when you see that.
▶ 2:55:05Sen. Peters: Often these mast individuals are only wearing a sign that says police. This is a type of vest can be easily purchased by anyone and used it to officer. Last year the trump administration's fbi released a bulletin entitled, I will put this in the record without objection, criminal actors impersonate I.c.e. Agents to commit violent crime. Are you aware of this bulletin put out by the fbi?
▶ 2:55:36Sen. Peters: >> yes.
▶ 2:55:38Mr. Scott: Yes.
▶ 2:55:39Sen. Peters: I will put this in the record, if I may. The fbi is warning people that criminals are impersonating immigration officers. How can you expect any U.S. citizen to follow orders from an unidentified masked man surrounding them given we know there are these impersonators out there that are according to the fbi committing a lot of crime because they are
▶ 2:56:11Sen. Peters: Terrified. They don't know what is going on or they falsely believe they are a federal agent. These tactics are causing fear and chaos in our communities. That is why we need to have commonsense reforms to rain in these practices. What we are advocating is that the men and women follow the same rules that our local police follow. Our local police are highly professional. I have the greatest respect for them. They do amazing work and they put their life in harm's way regularly.
▶ 2:56:41Sen. Peters: They have a set of rules they have to follow and that is not happening with what we are seeing with agencies related to the federal government. We should have a legitimate discussion about that safety and reasonable practices going forward. I would hope that you would support that.
▶ 2:57:01Sen. Peters: In general do you think that you should follow the same rules of those followed by local police in our communities?
▶ 2:57:13Mr. Scott: I believe you are talking about uniform standards. There are times we have made exceptions for the name tag but it was an individual identifier so people knew who they were and all our officers have to carry credentials with them and a badge with them.
▶ 2:57:30Sen. Peters: Across the board, we put together a wide range of practices that have been adopted by police organizations all across the united states of america. Would you feel comfortable abiding by the same regulations and guidelines that local police follow on a host of issues?
▶ 2:57:50Mr. Scott: I would look at those. Different organizations have different considerations but the general concept, yes and I believe we do currently follow.
▶ 2:58:00Sen. Peters: Mr. lyons?
▶ 2:58:02Mr. Lyons: Yes, I'm open to that. I'm open to looking for help from other officials to help us hold people accountable that are threatening I.c.e. Agents and officers. To dispel the fear of the men and women of I.c.e., that would be huge.
▶ 2:58:17Sen. Peters: As we have looked at the complaints, one of the things from the different videos out there is the complaint that the officers are quick on the draw. Basically they are drawing weapons. I know there are rules for police drawing weapons. A lot of times, do not draw unless they plan on using it or if there is an imminent threat. There is some subjective nature viewing that out.
▶ 2:58:43Sen. Peters: There was one video of the woman in north carolina, hypothetical, a woman has stopped and not brandished a weapon. I.c.e. Agents get out with guns drawn. That to me does not seem to be consistent with your policy. What is the policy on when to draw a weapon? Mr. scott first.
▶ 2:59:04Mr. Scott: Within cbp when the officer feels there is a threat but within this specific scenario you outlined with the vehicle, the vehicle is often used as a weapon. When we trained to do felony stops, the officers when they stop the vehicle, they are trained to have their weapons out and ready because they are stopping a felony so it is not that simple that you have to wait until you see a weapon. Sometimes it is the officer presence to keep the situation under control.
▶ 2:59:34Mr. Scott: The weapon is only polled when the agent believes it is required to affect the law enforcement action.
▶ 2:59:39Chair Paul: In this instance I don't think it was a person who was targeted. It was person they might have had suspicion of. The problem is that nobody really looks at this and thinks the police would do it that way. When police make traffic stops, they avoid the car, they come from behind the car. They will often have their hand on their weapon. You almost never see a policeman with a gun drawn on a traffic stop or any kind of stop unless they have seen a weapon or they are in fear of their lives.
▶ 3:00:11Chair Paul: This is just my opinion. You have to look at what your rules are for drawing weapons because it appears to me they are not using the same standards as the police.
▶ 3:00:26Mr. Lyons: I can speak to my experience. I have done thousands of traffic stops. I was a 10 year police officer prior coming to I.c.e. We fall back on two decisions. Tennessee versus gardner for one. We cannot speak to the totality of the circumstance especially in a case where we don't know what it is. We cannot go to that officer's mindset so each one is separate.
▶ 3:00:51Mr. Lyons: If you look at the use of force curriculum and the pyramid, officer presence is included in one of those things. To your point, I have done it many times myself. Felony traffic stop. In the case of I.c.e., often times we do know it is a wanted felon we are going after. The firearm may be drawn. Again, each case is --
▶ 3:01:15Chair Paul: I think it makes a difference whether you are stopping a target versus stopping a random person. In the instance that was displayed recently in the news, I don't believe it was a felony stop. I don't even believe it was a targeted stop. I think this was probably somebody filming who was annoying them or pestering them and then they followed the person and stopped them. I think the weapons being drawn was inappropriate.
▶ 3:01:43Chair Paul: I would suggest that you need to look at these and look at the policy because I don't think they are living up to the same standard as the police. I think the police are better trained which is the other complaint that people have had. We rushed some people into the job and they have not had adequate training. Senator lankford.
▶ 3:01:59Sen. Lankford: Chairman, thank you. Thank you to the men and women who put their lines on the line for the country every day. We hear a story after story of death threats on I.c.e. Agents, on cbp folks who are being randomly attacked, on vehicles being rammed into their vehicles, of rocks being thrown at them, of threats they have against their life and their children. We hear it frequently. It is not just random.
▶ 3:02:32Sen. Lankford: The I.c.e. Facility in dallas where someone just got on the roof and opened fire into the facility, killing two people not legally present in the country but certainly targeting just a random I.c.e. Agent, the very real threats they face every day has to wear on them. We pass on our gratitude to the folks who put their lives on the line every day facing these threats for the nation. A lot of folks are not willing to do that. Say thanks to them. I would also say thank you as well.
▶ 3:03:01Sen. Lankford: Two years ago when 10,000 people illegally crossed into the country every day, two years ago. We have no idea who they were. 70,000 people were estimated by the biden administration to have come in in 2024. They were special-interest aliens who had a connection to terrorism. They were allowed into the country two years ago. The work that the men and women have done have stopped that chaos.
▶ 3:03:29Sen. Lankford: Now we are discussing serious and tragic incidents. But I think we are losing perspective of what has happened and the amazing thing to me is in the next 48 hours we are arguing whether we will cut off funding and the fund I.c.e. And the fund cbp -- defund I.c.e.
▶ 3:03:51Sen. Lankford: And cbp and my democratic colleagues are demanding to defund secret service, fema, all of it just to be defunded because they are angry about this incident that is under investigation with multiple entities to be able to go through this investigation. The frustration that I have is I understand these are hard issues that we should spend time talking about. They are tragic and awful but also thankfully they are rare.
▶ 3:04:22Sen. Lankford: There are thousands of arrests happening on the day that are happening by the book. What is happening is a group of protesters that are protesting and agitating and some of them are running into churches and disturbing church services and saying it is my first amendment right to shut down your church during a service and saying there are a -- they are a peaceful protester while they throw rocks at agents. It just gets old I'm sure for a lot of those agents who are trying to do their job.
▶ 3:04:54Sen. Lankford: The few incidents, and they are few, thankfully, get highlighted and the thousands of arrests and the 70% of the arrests who are criminal aliens being removed from our country, very few people are stopping to say thanks. I just want to make it clear what is actually happening. I want to drill down on a couple of things. This issue came out about final order of removal.
▶ 3:05:18Sen. Lankford: What percentage of folks who have a detainer put on them nationwide or are in removal processes have a final order? Does anyone know that percentage.
▶ 3:05:28Mr. Lyons: Not the percentage. We are tracking about 1.6 million final orders in the united states. 800,000 of those have criminal convictions.
▶ 3:05:38Sen. Lankford: Of those folks there is this debate against the final order and whether it should be honored in detainers in states like minnesota or what that actually looks like as my colleague senator johnson was saying. The attorney general kept saying if they are convicted, I will honor it but then he said if there is a final order of removal. It is my understanding that the vast majority of these folks have a final order already to record.
▶ 3:06:03Mr. Lyons: Yes. Through an immigration judge from the department of justice.
▶ 3:06:09Sen. Lankford: I want to talk about the minnesota tragic incident. There have been operations in memphis and new orleans and north carolina and multiple places where there were not incidents like this. Was there a difference in how command and control was done in minnesota that was different in other locations. How was command and control actually handled in minnesota?
▶ 3:06:33Mr. Lyons: Command and control started with immigration and customs enforcement. We have always been the state of minnesota, we always have officers. We were there. We were there for the fraud case originally. The immigration peace did come into. There are 16,840 final orders at large in minnesota which the officers and agents were there for.
▶ 3:07:01Mr. Lyons: The one problem I have to point out different than is the fact that I.c.e. Agents, special agents, deportation officers do respect the first amendment right of anybody. Myself I have had people protest and yell. That is part of the business. The issue is when we have organized groups and I was just looking at one of the flyers that was put out. When it said how to impede I.c.e. Operations and arrests and it told white people to put their body between the criminal alien and the office there.
▶ 3:07:32Mr. Lyons: Speaking from experience, prior law enforcement officer, if I was on the side saying this is a traffic stop and someone gets between me, I'm going to arrest them. People were actively told to go up there and impede arrests -- not arrests. Help the people we were arresting escape and ram vehicles. That is the difference that led to the escalation.
▶ 3:07:59Sen. Lankford: Ok. I want to talk about other things going on if I can have just a moment. We have allocated $170 billion dollars which is a big amount. Part of that is going to the border wall and what we think is better security long-term at the southern border and the northern border. What is happening right now with construction on this for the border? Those dollars have been allocated. We don't have a report of what is going on.
▶ 3:08:29Mr. Scott: We are building a smart border wall at a record pace. There is about 35.9 miles of barrier we have installed since january, a combination of waterborne and the actual border wall but there is 30 miles of new border wall. Two males -- two miles per week is being built. That will ramp up dramatically as new contracts come on board.
▶ 3:08:53Mr. Scott: I want to highlight no matter what we do on the southwest border, we have learned if there is not a consequence when you get past us, the flow will never stop. A big reason the flow has slowed down is because we are actually arresting illegal aliens inside the united states, sending a message globally that we will not tolerate this. That is why cbp supports the interior operations to the maximum extent. This all works together. We are rolling out technology. It is not just the border wall. It is a smart system.
▶ 3:09:24Mr. Scott: New aircraft coming on and we are hiring more agents and officers and making sure they are trained to the highest professional standards available.
▶ 3:09:31Sen. Lankford: Thank you.
▶ 3:09:31Chair Paul: Senator hassan.
▶ 3:09:35Sen. Hassan: Good morning to our witnesses. Even if the current funding bill stalls or is not passed that would fund the department of homeland security, the department has money at its disposal right now because it was funded during the tax bill that my republican colleagues passed last summer. I want the american people to be clear about that. Mr.
▶ 3:10:03Sen. Hassan: Lyons, dhs officers have killed two american citizens in minnesota this year. What were their names?
▶ 3:10:09Sen. Hassan: Whose names?
▶ 3:10:13Sen. Hassan: The two american citizens who were killed by dhs officers in minnesota. What were their names?
▶ 3:10:19Mr. Lyons: Renee good and alex pretti.
▶ 3:10:21Sen. Hassan: I'm glad to hear you say their names out loud. So far this morning as of three hours of testimony on tuesday before a house committee, you failed to say their names a single time. Why?
▶ 3:10:34Mr. Lyons: Mam, I did not look like their names. I was answering the question. I did give my condolences to the family and are requested to meet them personally to give my condolences on behalf of the agents and officers involved.
▶ 3:10:49Sen. Hassan: Renee good and alex pretti were human beings and they are dead. Before they died they had families and friends who loved them and were loved by. It seems to me that too many at I.c.e. Have lost sight of the fact that they are interacting with real people, a lot of nameless faceless numbers or political targets. When we dehumanize our fellow human beings, that is when these tragedies happen. Mr.
▶ 3:11:18Sen. Hassan: Lyons, were renee good and alex pretti domestic terrorists?
▶ 3:11:24Mr. Lyons: That investigation is ongoing to my knowledge. I cannot speak to it because an ongoing investigation and we will make everything transparent which I have always committed to.
▶ 3:11:38Sen. Hassan: On tuesday he said you don't want to comment on these ongoing investigations because you don't want to impede or bias the investigation. Is that right?
▶ 3:11:49Mr. Lyons: Yes.
▶ 3:11:51Sen. Hassan: Secretary noem and stephen miller have called them domestic terrorists. Did their comments buys the investigations -- bias the investigations?
▶ 3:12:05Mr. Lyons: I don't want to put my finger on the scales of the investigation.
▶ 3:12:10Sen. Hassan: I am not asking you to speak for them. I am asking whether having the secretary of homeland security call the subjects of an ongoing investigation domestic terrorists, whether their doing that impedes the investigations.
▶ 3:12:26Mr. Lyons: Thank you for saying that. I don't represent them.
▶ 3:12:31Sen. Hassan: But you don't speak for them.
▶ 3:12:34Mr. Lyons: I don't know what information was presented to them at that time.
▶ 3:12:37Sen. Hassan: Your testimony does not make any sense. If it would impede the investigation for you to say right now, when you know a lot more than we did right after the shootings, whether renee good and alex pretti were domestic terrorists, if you saying that would impede the investigation, then why wouldn't it impede the investigations for secretary noem and stephen miller to say the same thing about the same people?
▶ 3:13:06Mr. Lyons: Any comments made publicly, privately, texts, emails or instagram posts, whatever, is going to put a bias on the information.
▶ 3:13:20Sen. Hassan: That is important. I take it that you are saying that secretary noem and stephen miller were wrong to say what they said.
▶ 3:13:27Mr. Lyons: Again, I cannot speak to them. A career law enforcement officer myself and Mr. scott, we will not speak to those types of things.
▶ 3:13:37Sen. Hassan: Are you not just being straightforward here and saying what is obvious because you are worried that if you do, you will be fired?
▶ 3:13:45Mr. Lyons: No, ma'am.
▶ 3:13:48Sen. Hassan: The fact that you are unwilling to admit that secretary noem and stephen miller were wrong to say what they did, that they impeded the investigation, is indicative of the failure of leadership at dhs and all levels of this administration. I want to move onto to another issue. Are you aware that I.c.e. Has identified a commercial warehouse in new hampshire for a site for a new detention center?
▶ 3:14:14Mr. Lyons: Yes.
▶ 3:14:19Sen. Hassan: The town was not consulted about this plan but when they heard about it, town leaders wrote to secretary noem voicing concerns in opposition to the plan. I have just shared those concerns with dhs. My colleague expressed similar concerns about a proposed I.c.e. Facility. I.c.e. Has now canceled the mississippi project. Will I.c.e. Can zero -- cancel the new hampshire project?
▶ 3:14:46Mr. Lyons: No, ma'am. Dhs has spoke to the governor about economic impact.
▶ 3:14:57Sen. Hassan: When exactly did you speak with the governor?
▶ 3:15:00Mr. Lyons: Dhs officials spoke with her in the past weeks but I can get that exact timeframe.
▶ 3:15:05Sen. Hassan: Let me be very clear. The people of merrimack do not want this facility in their community I have yet to find a granite state community that does. Their worries go from the concerns about the way I.c.e. Is operating detention facilities to the fact that they will lose significant property tax value to their community. They have not been consulted.
▶ 3:15:34Sen. Hassan: We have a long tradition of local control and participation in new hampshire and we expect that you will be sitting not just with the governor, but with local officials so that they can understand what the impact and on their community. There are also significant concerns about the way I.c.e. Is operating some detention centers, the fact that measles outbreaks are happening in some of them.
▶ 3:16:00Sen. Hassan: I would hope that I would get the same treatment that senator wicker god which is to say -- senator wicker got which is to say the town does not want the detention center so please cancel it. I would expect that my partisan affiliation should not make any difference to that. Thank you, Mr. chair.
▶ 3:16:19Chair Paul: I think it is important to acknowledge what Mr. lyons said and he said that he had no knowledge that either of the ones who were killed were domestic terrorists. That is correct?
▶ 3:16:32Mr. Lyons: To my knowledge, no sir.
▶ 3:16:34Chair Paul: Say again?
▶ 3:16:36Mr. Lyons: To my knowledge, no sir.
▶ 3:16:39Chair Paul: Senator scott.
▶ 3:16:44Sen. Scott: Thank you. We all acknowledge any loss of life is a tragedy. For renee good and alex pretti, my heart goes out to their families. It should not have happened. We always do an investigation if there is an officer-involved shooting. I want to thank you for doing the investigation. It is thorough and we get all the facts.
▶ 3:17:14Sen. Scott: If people stop saying they know the answer before the investigation is done. I have been on this committee for several years. I came on during trump's first term. All I heard from my colleagues was all they did was a taxi to -- was attacked -- was attacke cbp. I think what cbp and I.c.e.
▶ 3:17:44Sen. Scott: Does, I cannot imagine how difficult it is. What frustrates me is during the biden administration I don't remember my democratic colleagues once questioning them about why they are allowing in all of these terrorists, criminals, drug traffickers, ever.
▶ 3:18:08Sen. Scott: No one wanted renee good and alex pretti to die but what about laken riley or any of these individuals? What about all of the rapes we have heard about around this country? What frustrates me is that what you all are doing is unbelievably difficult.
▶ 3:18:30Sen. Scott: You are trying to clean up the cra[that the biden administration gave youp -- the crap that the biden administration gave you. We don't know how many gang members are in this country. Our friends and neighbors have died of drugs that have come across our southern border. That has never been a concern for the democrats on this committee. In seven years I have never heard them complain about that. All they do is complain about how you guys do your job.
▶ 3:19:04Sen. Scott: I don't get it. I was a governor, there were three things I was expected to do. Help people get a job, help their kids get a good education and keep them safe. The most important was keep people safe. That is what you guys are doing every day. How can a mayor or a governor not want to cooperate to keep people safe? What is it like when someone is in a jail.
▶ 3:19:34Sen. Scott: When you were in florida, did officers, if someone was being released that was an illegal alien was a criminal background, did they say no, we are not going to talk to I.c.e.? >> no, sir.
▶ 3:19:49Sen. Scott: Have we had these protests in florida? >> no, sir.
▶ 3:19:54Sen. Scott: Have you had problems with I.c.e. Involved shootings in florida? >> no, sir.
▶ 3:19:59Sen. Scott: Why? >> that is a cooperation factor. I.c.e. Respects state law. In a soda has it where they cannot hold individuals based on -- minnesota has it where they cannot hold individuals based on a detainer.
▶ 3:20:16Sen. Scott: How does that help anyone who lives in that community?
▶ 3:20:22Mr. Lyons: It does not help public safety. Even with a detainer, give us a chance to make that phone call. I can give you an example from my time in massachusetts. We always felt like charlie brown with the football. They were saying that we were going to cooperate but they would call knowing that there were only 12 I.c.e. Officers available to respond from boston, massachusetts to cape cod. They told us we had 15 minutes to get there.
▶ 3:20:49Mr. Lyons: When the individual was released, they still said we called I.c.e.. Unfortunately there were too many cases where we had individual in cape cod arrested for rape, was released and went and raped again. Those are the cases that I.c.e. Is concerned about. If you don't want to hold an individual in custody, I.c.e. Respects that. But gives us -- give us the opportunity to make that arrest.
▶ 3:21:18Sen. Scott: When they don't do it, is the community safer?
▶ 3:21:21Mr. Lyons: No, it is not. That prime example is one right there, that they could have made the public saver.
▶ 3:21:28Sen. Scott: What is the rationale for these sanctuary cities? Can you tell me any reason you would have a sanctuary city people say I want the criminals to come to my city and I will not work with I.c.e. To get them out of my community?
▶ 3:21:42Mr. Lyons: What we have seen so many times is again, from the law side where we hear about community policing, you always hear of the chilling effect of working with I.c.e. The problem is that backfires in sanctuary jurisdictions because so many times we saw the illegal aliens go back and offend and take advantage of the migrants who did come back here for a good life.
▶ 3:22:06Mr. Lyons: Yet, they were told if you cooperate with I.c.e., if you call 911, you will be deported which is the furthest from the fact if you look at what we have done with the help of cis, with protecting victims of human smuggling, sex trafficking and things like that, that the goal of a sanctuary city backfires when it comes to protecting other migrants who are afraid to come forward.
▶ 3:22:28Sen. Scott: How many times have you asked about laken riley? Have you been asked about laken riley by a democrat? How about rachel marin? How about any of the girls who were raped?
▶ 3:22:41Mr. Lyons: No, sir.
▶ 3:22:43Sen. Scott: No. You get asked about why you are not doing your job better.
▶ 3:22:48Mr. Lyons: Yes, sir.
▶ 3:22:49Sen. Scott: If you listen to what is going on here, the democrats are mad because you are trying to protect a neighborhood. Right? It does not make any sense. One thing I don't get is if you want to be a sanctuary city, why do you get any federal money? Especially any federal money to cooperate with law enforcement?
▶ 3:23:12Mr. Lyons: That is one of the hard parts for us. The witness that was here earlier, both of us were career law enforcement. I respect his views and his career. When it comes to issues like cooperation at the local and state level, again, I.c.e. Does do that but so many times I can give you an example in colorado where we were going to serve a criminal warrant at an apartment complex. It was full.
▶ 3:23:42Mr. Lyons: We tried to work with state and local government. They made notifications that the operations were ongoing. When tactical teams arrive, protesters were already there and and the apartment complex was empty. . We have seen that time and time again. I have had it where we have made notifications. I have had the privilege of having this job for almost 20 years and doing it at the enforcement level. To notify local police department and then they would put that out in a tweed, I.c.e.
▶ 3:24:12Mr. Lyons: Is going to be at l&h street. We reach a point that we want to cooperate. We want to be good partners but how many times can we be charlie brown with the football and say this time you are going to work with us and it does not happen? If you don't want to work with that, I respect the agencies who don't want to. That is great. But there has been time and time again empirical evidence that we are impeded, our operations are leaked and then we are put out.
▶ 3:24:42Sen. Scott: Thank you for what you do.
▶ 3:24:44Chair Paul: Senator kim.
▶ 3:24:46Sen. Kim: Thank you, chair. Mr. scott, do you agree with Mr. lyons thoughts that he shared with us a moment ago that statements from senior leaders in the immediate aftermath of an incident could bias assessments?
▶ 3:25:01Mr. Scott: I don't know what information they had at that time. I will not speculate.
▶ 3:25:07Sen. Kim: Used at the fbi has purview over the investigation regarding alex pretti. Is that correct?
▶ 3:25:12Mr. Scott: Correct.
▶ 3:25:14Sen. Kim: Immediately after the shooting and killing of alex pretti, kash patel, the fbi director said, "you cannot bring a loaded firearm with multiple magazines to a protest. It's that simple. You don't have the right to break the law and incite violence." I want to ask if you have confidence in the fbi investigation of this killing.
▶ 3:25:37Mr. Scott: I do have confidence in the fbi's investigation of this incident because those agents out there are professionals. They are trained. They will collect the evidence and the interviews and present their findings to a U.S. attorney, a district attorney or a grand jury.
▶ 3:25:54Sen. Kim: Mr. lyons, with regard to renee good, there were reports saying that fbi agents equipped with a signed warrant prepared to document blood spatter and bullet holes in her suv. They received orders to stop. The orders came supposedly from senior officials including kash patel. Do you think a sufficient enough investigation is happening into the killing of renee good right now?
▶ 3:26:21Mr. Lyons: I cannot speak to that. I'm not aware of those decisions. What I can tell you in the commitment from I.c.e., especially from the office of professional responsibility, is we did secure those firearms and the scene properly. We turned over our evidence to the fbi and we are standing by at the end of their investigation, the conclusion to conduct our internal review at that point.
▶ 3:26:45Sen. Kim: I just want to convey that there is a huge trust gap here. Absolute zero trust in just being able, for this administration to conduct an independent investigation into these killings. I just urge you to continue to push on this because without that, I don't think we will move forward.
▶ 3:27:05Sen. Kim: When we see these statements from stephen miller, kristi noem, kash patel and others, it is absolutely putting a black mark over anything happening on the ground. Mr. lyons, where you the one that recommended the surge in minnesota?
▶ 3:27:23Mr. Lyons: Operation metro surge.
▶ 3:27:26Sen. Kim: Was that your idea?
▶ 3:27:28Mr. Lyons: Metro surge for the fraud investigation, yes, sir.
▶ 3:27:33Sen. Kim: So you recommended 3000 plus agents to go to minnesota?
▶ 3:27:37Mr. Lyons: I asked for more support for the amount of protests and the amount of assault on officers.
▶ 3:27:44Sen. Kim: Now we see tom homan say that the surge would stop. Where are those I.c.e. Agents going to go?
▶ 3:27:54Mr. Lyons: They will go back to their home station.
▶ 3:27:57Sen. Kim: We were refrained from using this tactic in other states after seeing the level of crisis and lack of confidence and the chaos unleashed in minnesota?
▶ 3:28:08Mr. Lyons: One thing for sure, there are no I.c.e. Officers who wanted that type of chaos to happen. I think going forward, I think you will see more after conversations with officials in minneapolis and minnesota what partnership can look like at the local level.
▶ 3:28:27Sen. Kim: Have you learned a lesson here? If you pull out from minnesota but now you do a similar type of surge in another state, is that something you would consider after what has occurred in minnesota?
▶ 3:28:42Mr. Lyons: In regard to every law enforcement operation, of course we look at lessons learned and we always look back. At the end, the ownership of his. I have to look at evaluations of what we did and what worked. If I can have one second to say it, the problem I believe is the fact that, like some other things I brought up earlier, the agitators on the protest side, we have no problem with people protesting. It happens all the time.
▶ 3:29:14Mr. Lyons: But it is that coordination. When you have flyers instructing people how to get between, whether it is a cbp officer or I.c.e. Officer making it a rest, that is the problem and that is what I hope we can help, especially with this committee and others. That situations like this will not happen and that people can protest. While we encourage individuals to put themselves in harm's way, that is a lesson learned from this.
▶ 3:29:38Sen. Kim: Mr. ed low, there was an incident in san diego as thousands of military veterans were going to get interviewed for a green card and they were arrested upon arrival at their interviews. Tell us what happened. Was that uscis agents that arrested them?
▶ 3:30:02Mr. Edlow: No, senator. Anyone who comes to an interview with an outstanding warrant may find themselves subject to a facilitated arrest in which I.c.e. Or local --
▶ 3:30:13Sen. Kim: You a test right now that all of the spouses of military members and veterans had an outstanding arrest?
▶ 3:30:19Mr. Edlow: I am not aware of these specific cases.
▶ 3:30:23Sen. Kim: You should be able to talk through these. These are very high-profile. Was that uscis or was that coordinated with I.c.e.?
▶ 3:30:31Mr. Edlow: Again, sent a deer, depending on who comes to our office --
▶ 3:30:38Sen. Kim: Sen. kim: have you ever shared with eyes details -- shared with I.c.e. Details on interviews, have you ever shared that information with I.c.e.?
▶ 3:30:48Mr. Edlow: What concerns me in previous years is there was no coordination.
▶ 3:30:56Sen. Kim: Will you share the location and the timing --
▶ 3:31:00Sen. Blumenthal: If someone is subject to arrest or detention, we will communicate with I.c.e. And anyone who comes into a federal building should expect to be arrested if they have a warrant.
▶ 3:31:11Sen. Kim: Mr. lyons, in new jersey a six-year-old girl was left wandering the streets asking for her father after I.c.e. Arrested the man while he was picking up food. I wanted to ask if you can explain this action and can you commit to providing my office with a briefing within 30 days of what happened that took place in new jersey.
▶ 3:31:32Mr. Lyons: I don't have knowledge of that but I commit to you I will investigate that. If I can just say, that is not the standard that I.c.e. Goes by. We take care of children. I will commit to you to get you that information.
▶ 3:31:50Sen. Kim: It certainly did not happen in this circumstance and it has shaken the community. I will follow up to get that information so we can have clarity.
▶ 3:31:54Mr. Lyons: I want the chance to gain your trust back that we do not do that at I.c.e..
▶ 3:32:00Chair Paul: Senator moreno.
▶ 3:32:03Sen. Moreno: For the record, I think it is important for us to have a little bit more judicious responsibility about drawing conclusions about american citizens and not depriving them of their fifth amendment and forts think -- 14th amendment rights. It is outrageous where watching a video on social media is enough to indict people. Mr. lyons, what does that mean to your family?
▶ 3:32:35Sen. Moreno: You saw what my colleagues from florida talked about. What does that mean to your family when they see those conclusive statements in terms of what you and your officers are doing with actually zero information that is a proper investigation?
▶ 3:32:49Mr. Lyons: I will speak personally. It is hard. Again, I am a career law enforcement person. That men and women of I.c.e. Go out there and do incredible work. But they are demonized. I would love to see officers and agents be treated as human as well.
▶ 3:33:16Mr. Lyons: My son whose birthday is today, he shows me a video. Dad, is this true? And it is totally false. It is an a.I. Thing. Unfortunately today, that is our biggest problem. We are always on our back foot because no one will pick up the good stories that we do.
▶ 3:33:37Mr. Lyons: We joke all the time that one of the major criminal organizations we fight, they have better playbooks than we do when it comes to making I.c.e. Look bad. Sometimes the media is our biggest enemy.
▶ 3:33:52Sen. Moreno: It is not just the media or some random goofball on social media. These are elected representatives that make outrageous statements. I would like to enter a list, four page list of current sitting members of congress that have been making absolutely outrageous comments and comparing I.c.e. Agents to the gestapo and a secret police.
▶ 3:34:21Chair Paul: Without objection.
▶ 3:34:24Sen. Moreno: The second piece I would like to enter into the record, some outrageous statistics. Let's talk about outrage. 843 percent increase in death threats. An increase in assaults against I.c.e. Officials. A 16,700 increase on threats of assault against your agents, both of you.
▶ 3:34:58Sen. Moreno: An increase in vehicular attacks against your agents and an increase against officials like yourselves that are not in the field every single day. This is a direct result. I will enter that into the record as well.
▶ 3:35:13Chair Paul: Without question.
▶ 3:35:15Sen. Moreno: This is a direct result of the rhetoric. I have a very important question I have been meaning to ask you for the last 12 months. What laws were changed in the last 12 months that made it so that we went from the most open border in american history, hundreds of thousands of people coming to this country illegally every month to virtually zero. What laws to be passed? I want -- what laws did we pass?
▶ 3:35:48Sen. Moreno: I want you to give credit to congress.
▶ 3:35:49Mr. Scott: No laws were passed.
▶ 3:35:51Sen. Moreno: What? No laws were passed?
▶ 3:35:57Mr. Scott: No new laws were passed.
▶ 3:36:00Sen. Moreno: So we are sitting here passing judgment on your team who actually enforce the laws of the united states of america, to not allow people to enter our country illegally, to regain our sovereignty? Do your agents to find sometimes that they are living in an upside down world?
▶ 3:36:16Mr. Scott: I will not speak for the agents who are not here, but I do.
▶ 3:36:20Sen. Moreno: That is outrageous. Your job is simple. Enforce the laws. Correct?
▶ 3:36:27Mr. Scott: Correct. We are just supposed to control who comes into this country, who stays in this country, consistent with the laws that congress passes.
▶ 3:36:36Sen. Moreno: We have spent time talking about the deaths of two protesters. As my colleague from florida pointed out, we have not had a single hearing about the deaths of american citizens at the hands of criminal aliens. Not a single time. One of my colleagues asked you to say the name of the two people killed in minnesota. You had no problem with that, right?
▶ 3:36:59Mr. Lyons: No.
▶ 3:37:00Sen. Moreno: Do you hear any sympathy for the deaths of criminal aliens -- the deaths of american citizens at the hands of criminal aliens? I was a new senator a year ago. I have to say, it was a little bit humbling to sit in the chamber of the house of representatives during the state of the union address. Because I thought I am sitting here as a U.S. senator in the house of representatives and the president is speaking. Honestly, my brain was spinning.
▶ 3:37:32Sen. Moreno: It was surreal. When the president talked about people like laken riley who had been killed, a woman in texas. That her parents were there looking at it. I looked over to the other side and there was not a single solitary democrat that clapped for that family, honoring their lives. I think we got to the point in america today where we have lost our way.
▶ 3:38:00Sen. Moreno: Let me say this on behalf of every legal immigrant. Thank you for doing your job. Thank you for enforcing the laws of the united states. Thank you for honoring those of us who came into this country legally. Followed the process, took the time to wait it out and thank you for not allowing this country to reward those who skip the line, violate our laws and somehow be viewed as they are the victims. What your people do every single day is very straightforward.
▶ 3:38:32Sen. Moreno: You enforce the laws that this body passes. I want to encourage my democratic colleagues. If they want to codify the biden open border policies, submit that law. Show your voters that is what you want. I don't think you will get very far. I will end with this. Have any of your officers ever entered a church to arrest any criminal alien?
▶ 3:38:57Mr. Lyons: No, sir.
▶ 3:39:02Sen. Moreno: Have you ever entered an elementary school to arrest a criminal alien? >> no, sir.
▶ 3:39:06Sen. Moreno: How about entering hospitals to arrest criminal aliens?
▶ 3:39:09Mr. Lyons: We have incidents where they have run into a hospital seeking sanctuary. But we don't go out there looking for patients on an iv
▶ 3:39:17Sen. Moreno: Thank you.
▶ 3:39:19Chair Paul: Senator blumenthal.
▶ 3:39:21Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you all for being here today and answering our questions. I don't want to talk about new laws. I want to talk about a very old one. The constitution, the fourth amendment. This picture is of I.c.e. Agents forcing their way into the minneapolis home of garrison gibson. Banging down the door, detaining Mr.
▶ 3:39:50Sen. Blumenthal: Gibson in front of his wife and their 10-year-old daughter and their niece who happened to be there at the time. I don't know if you are familiar with what happened here. It is one of many similar incidents that have happened all around the country. And it was done pursuant to what is called an administrative warrant. I'm going to hold up a copy of that warrant.
▶ 3:40:23Sen. Blumenthal: Signed by an sddo, who is I believe a member of the I.c.e. Workforce, another agent, a supervisory detention and deportation officer. Not a judge, correct?
▶ 3:40:45Mr. Lyons: Correct, senator.
▶ 3:40:47Sen. Blumenthal: So, in effect, this is not a warrant. It is a permission slip. It is a green light from another I.c.e. Agent to go bash down a door, smash into a home, detain and arrest someone, without a judge finding probable cause and without any sort of objective
▶ 3:41:18Sen. Blumenthal: Independent finding. Is that correct?
▶ 3:41:20Mr. Lyons: No, sir. I205 is the arrest warrant based on a final order issued by an immigration judge.
▶ 3:41:31Sen. Blumenthal: And that order is from an immigration judge who is part of the executive branch. Not an independent judge. But the warrant issued is simply a permission slip. Let's be clear, you were a local police officer.
▶ 3:41:51Mr. Lyons: Yes, sir.
▶ 3:41:53Sen. Blumenthal: To barge into someone's home, if you are a local officer, you need a judicial warrant from a judicial officer, a judge, who is going to find or not, probable cause, which has a specific meaning under the law. These I.c.e. Agents who bang down doors are doing the same thing without that judicial warrant.
▶ 3:42:22Sen. Blumenthal: What is so different about I.c.e. That it regards itself as an exception to the fourth amendment and the requirement for a judicial warrant is a fourth amendment requirement?
▶ 3:42:34Mr. Lyons: We don't, senator. There is a case law, U.S. versus lucas, which is out of the eighth district of minnesota which authorizes the entry in a home to catch a fugitive based on administrative warrant.
▶ 3:42:51Sen. Blumenthal: I beg your pardon, sir. It does not abrogate the fourth amendment it does not say that I.c.e. Agents or cbp agents can simply bash down doors and barge into people's homes, terrorize their children, detain and arrest people without a judicial warrant. There is nothing different about what I.c.e. Does as to compared to the fbi or the local police that would justify.
▶ 3:43:22Sen. Blumenthal: The policy that they are acting under is the result of a memo that you issued in may, if you are familiar with it, which says in effect that they do not need judicial warrants. They can act on the basis of the 205 warrant you just described which is administrative. It is not judicial. Why did you keep this secret?
▶ 3:43:47Mr. Lyons: I did not keep it secret.
▶ 3:43:49Sen. Blumenthal: We learned about it when two whistleblowers came to us and said that you were using it as a basis for policy. It was never announced publicly. It was never released to the press or the american people. Why did you keep it secret?
▶ 3:44:11Mr. Lyons: I did not keep it secret. If sending an email to a workforce is keeping secret, it is a bad secret.
▶ 3:44:18Sen. Blumenthal: It never reached those people.
▶ 3:44:35Mr. Lyons: The emailed dead, yes, sir. -- the emailed did, yes, sir.
▶ 3:44:37Sen. Blumenthal: Let me move to another topic. You stated on tuesday that no U.S. citizen is subject to immigration enforcement and that does not happen. If a U.S. citizen is detained in the course of the immigration investigation, they are quickly released. I asked unanimous consent that the report that we did, the ranking member staff did entitled unchecked authority that documents 22 U.S.
▶ 3:45:03Sen. Blumenthal: Citizens being detained and assaulted by immigration agents as well as written statements from eight U.S. citizens who have been detained, shot at and nearly killed by I.c.e. Agents --
▶ 3:45:15Chair Paul: Without objection.
▶ 3:45:17Sen. Blumenthal: Let's take george reads, an army veteran trying to go to work. He says he was tear-gassed and held for three days without charges. Is he lying?
▶ 3:45:30Mr. Lyons: I.c.e. Was not involved in that arrest.
▶ 3:45:34Sen. Blumenthal: Were you mistaken when you said that no U.S. citizen is subject to immigration enforcement?
▶ 3:45:39Mr. Lyons: No, sir.
▶ 3:45:41Sen. Blumenthal: Who is lying? You are him?
▶ 3:45:45Mr. Lyons: I'm speaking for the men and women of I.c.e..
▶ 3:45:48Sen. Blumenthal: But the facts contradict what you said. Will you admit that you don't know about a disabled woman from minneapolis? She came to this hearing and testified before our spotlight for him, violently dragged from her car, detained without medical attention until she passed out. Is she lying or are you lying?
▶ 3:46:15Mr. Lyons: No, she is not lying.
▶ 3:46:17Sen. Blumenthal: Then you were mistaken when you said no U.S. citizen has been detained.
▶ 3:46:21Mr. Lyons: I said no U.S. citizen is subject to immigration law or deportation or removal.
▶ 3:46:28Sen. Blumenthal: That is a circular argument. She is not subject because she is a U.S. citizen. But she was detained and that contradicts directly as does your statement applied to miram ar martinez who was almost killed, shot several times by cbp agents. It is true of diana figaro who told us she was violently dragged from her car after dropping her son off at school.
▶ 3:46:59Sen. Blumenthal: If she lying? -- is she lying?
▶ 3:47:03Mr. Lyons: No, sir. You know I have worked personally with you when you come to me on many cases when I was a field office director in new england. You know that we do not live. To say that we are lying is incorrect.
▶ 3:47:17Sen. Blumenthal: I asked you whether you were missed mistaken -- I asked whether you are mistaken when you said that no U.S. citizen is subject to immigration enforcement. I would call that misconduct enforcement by your agency. I am out of time.
▶ 3:47:36Chair Paul: I have two quick questions. One of the things that came up earlier was this idea that there used to be an instantaneous portal between I.c.e. And the presidents, where initially you were getting this information seamlessly. It was an automatic portal but that was stopped under mayorkas. Is that true?
▶ 3:48:02Mr. Lyons: Yes, sir.
▶ 3:48:05Chair Paul: Have you tried to restart it?
▶ 3:48:08Mr. Lyons: We have restarted it with multiple agencies. For the department of corrections we have a great relationship with them. We take individuals from them. There was a report released where we did not take action on 100, maybe a little bit more. But the fact that I.c.e. Did not take action on a foreign-born citizen points to the fact that they were not removable. To say that, that was disingenuous.
▶ 3:48:38Chair Paul: The other question that I have is we finally have the attorney general say of course it is a final order. It is not an unreasonable distinction. There is a difference between a final order and a detainer. Legally and procedurally. He said, we will cooperate with I.c.e.. It sounds like most of the targets have final orders. Senator lankford indicated that. We would like to know what the number is.
▶ 3:49:07Chair Paul: If 80% of them are final orders and you have 16,000 people that you would like to remove from minnesota, I would suggest that you take him up on what he said. He said we will do it if there is a final order. I think that you will actually win some of those arguments. It is a better way to win those arguments than some of the ways we have tried.
▶ 3:49:29Mr. Lyons: Two that what I would say is the state of minnesota at the department of corrections level should be giving us the final order. But it is when individuals at the local level or the county level in minnesota, that was the issue we were having. It might -- if I stop somebody, identified them, they have a final order, criminal history, they release them back.
▶ 3:49:56Chair Paul: You send in an email, I've got this target, you send 10 minnesota minneapolis police. Is that ever happening?
▶ 3:50:06Mr. Lyons: We will never have them make the arrest for us. We will use them for site security or perimeter security. Almost every jurisdiction in the state will do that. But if they say we cannot go because immigration enforcement, so be it.
▶ 3:50:22Chair Paul: I would test them in the direction of the things he says he would do. Pushing forward with that is a good idea. The other thing that came to my mind is if you don't have a final order and he is making the distinction, detainer is not really an order, we are not going to keep you beyond your three years in prison even one day on a detainer because it is not really an order, if someone is in prison for three years, why don't they go through
▶ 3:50:53Chair Paul: Immigration and get final orders? Who is in charge of that? If we notify you on day one, is that you or some other agency? On day one, someone is here illegally, he will be here for three years, that is a lot of time. They should prosecute in prison.
▶ 3:51:10Mr. Lyons: Many states do that. It is the institutional removal program. Massachusetts and new hampshire does that. While in custody, they put them through proceedings. That way there is no cost to the american taxpayer.
▶ 3:51:24Chair Paul: It avoids controversy. The more of that you can do, the better to get to the final stage and counter the argument on a detainer. Senator gallego.
▶ 3:51:39Sen. Gallego: Thank you. I will show some video of what the trump administration has done to some across the country. Can we play that? [video clip] >> get out of the car. >> are you kidding me?
▶ 3:52:16Sen. Gallego: >> get out of the car. >> I will not get out of the car. >> >get your hands off of me. [end video clip]
▶ 3:52:31Sen. Gallego: I.c.e. Code of conduct says that all agents must be paid and a model for all to follow. It is the behavior you just witnessed a model of do you think agents should follow -- a model of what you think agents should follow?
▶ 3:52:48Mr. Lyons: I cannot speak to each one individually. I.c.e. Agents are held to a higher standard but in every case like I have already stated before, --
▶ 3:53:03Sen. Gallego: It is an issue of common sense. Even the last one where the woman is pepper spray, she is clearly not a threat and he puts a nonlethal to her face. Speaking of nonleague foals, are all I.c.e. Agents trained in the use of nonlethal's? Pepper spray, maize, tasers?
▶ 3:53:23Mr. Lyons: Yes.
▶ 3:53:27Sen. Gallego: They are trained to understand the impact of it?
▶ 3:53:30Mr. Lyons: Yes.
▶ 3:53:32Sen. Gallego: What is the training cycle for new I.c.e. Agents?
▶ 3:53:35Mr. Lyons: We have reduced the calendar days from 75 to 42. He went from five days per week to six days per week. Five days per week was eight hour days and we have gone to 12 hour days.
▶ 3:53:50Sen. Gallego: And that has given them experience to deal with these urban areas including weapons handling? I have seen some of your I.c.e. Agents weapons handling. It is quite horrible. Do you think you can actually insert people in an environment and they are using weapons in the correct way?
▶ 3:54:09Mr. Lyons: What we have done on the backside of that is we have instituted our ojt program, which you are familiar with. After the academy they get the real-world training.
▶ 3:54:24Sen. Gallego: So it is happening in places like minnesota so someone who has probably never handled a weapon after 42 days is going to be inserted into minnesota into a high stress environment?
▶ 3:54:36Sen. Gallego: They could.
▶ 3:54:38Sen. Gallego: That explains a lot. In one of the videos you saw earlier, there was a cbp agent that is hitting someone in the face with a tear gas canisters. Without actually talking about that specific event, where in any training manual have you been taught that you should use something like that as a weapon against a civilian?
▶ 3:55:07Mr. Lyons: I have not.
▶ 3:55:09Sen. Gallego: You have not. Mr. scott, have you been trained to use a pistol to pistol whip someone while detaining them or a canister? In general in any of your training?
▶ 3:55:22Mr. Scott: Absolutely not although there is an exception that in certain circumstances meaning your life is at risk, you can use whatever you have available.
▶ 3:55:30Sen. Gallego: Weapons of opportunity. I have been trained on that shit too. Excuse me. Why don't you do that from your training? Why aren't you trained to use a pistol to pistol whip someone or a canister of tear-gassed when you are restraining somebody? Do you know from your training why you don't do that?
▶ 3:55:53Mr. Lyons: Why don't we do that? You are not going to pistol whip an individual for fear that the weapon is going to go off.
▶ 3:56:02Sen. Gallego: Exactly. What we have seen consistently from these agents who are clearly violating or putting other people in danger or themselves in danger with the fact they are doing that tells me there is a command structure element that allows that because we consistently see it all the time on video.
▶ 3:56:22Sen. Gallego: I have been in those high stress environments and if I had seen this consistently done by marines, I think the marine corps would have stopped altogether and say we have a brand-new training structure and we have to hold people accountable. The fact that this is happening all the time means we have created space, a command structure that has allowed us because these men feel like there is no accountability. Going forward, after renee good was shot, the agent called her a "fucking bitch" on camera.
▶ 3:56:59Sen. Gallego: Yes or no, is this how your agents are trained to act? Mr. scott?
▶ 3:57:03Mr. Scott: No, sir.
▶ 3:57:05Sen. Gallego: Is that professional in that regard?
▶ 3:57:10Mr. Scott: No, sir.
▶ 3:57:12Sen. Gallego: I asked this earlier. Your agents are trained in weapons handling, correct?
▶ 3:57:19Mr. Lyons: Yes, sir.
▶ 3:57:21Sen. Gallego: If you look at the shooting of renee good, why is the agent holding a camera phone and a weapon at the same time?
▶ 3:57:30Mr. Lyons: I don't want to comment on the ongoing investigation because that is still being determined at this time. Can I go back to one thing that you mentioned?
▶ 3:57:38Sen. Gallego: No. Has there ever been in order to any agents in minnesota for them to be recording on their personal phones to essentially been social -- to essentially be social influencers or pass the committee on? Have there been any orders given for agents to be recording while they are doing these stops or engaging with the public?
▶ 3:58:05Mr. Lyons: There has never been in order to do that. Agents have used it as far as if they were going to make an arrest on an agitator. The U.S. was requiring to have video leading up to the event so officers have used it for that.
▶ 3:58:20Sen. Gallego: Video from a handheld? From a phone?
▶ 3:58:24Mr. Lyons: If they had a body camera available or from any type of recording device.
▶ 3:58:29Sen. Gallego: The reason there is a difference, the body cam was designed for law enforcement to engage while having full scope of knowledge of what is happening, be able to detain, to escalate. What I saw and what the world's all is the fact that there was an agent that was moving around a vehicle with a camera phone recording and his hand on a weapon.
▶ 3:58:57Sen. Gallego: In what world, in what training between all of your training in weapons handling have you ever been taught what the appropriate use of holding a weapon and at the same time holding a camera phone. Did you have any training on that from your time in law enforcement or the cbp?
▶ 3:59:15Mr. Lyons: No, I have not. We look at every incident no matter what it is.
▶ 3:59:21Sen. Gallego: Shouldn't there be some kind of command that comes down from cbp headquarters knowing that this is unprofessional conduct that probably created and put the officer and the civilian in a situation that ended up escalating to issue a camera trying to be an influencer and holding a weapon at the same time. That is a professional code of conduct.
▶ 3:59:47Sen. Gallego: As law enforcement you would never do that because you know you cannot handle a weapon, assess a situation and be able to determine to escalate or de-escalate. Did you give any type of direction after renee good was shot saying that this is not what you should be doing or are we just accepting that this will continue going forward?
▶ 4:00:03Mr. Lyons: No, there was nothing issued because we hold our individuals accountable. That is the point I wanted to make earlier. From january 20 five to january 26 I.c.e. Attacked -- from january to go january 2026, one is being referred for further action.
▶ 4:00:26Sen. Gallego: I'm glad you are doing investigations. But the fact that there are consistent mishandling of weapons, the use of the escalation of force that is above what is necessary and there still has not been in a command decision and directive about how to actually fix this is concerning. Any other agency, any other military would have said do not do this.
▶ 4:00:53Sen. Gallego: Do not be recording with your phone while handling a weapon and moving in front of a moving vehicle. I yield back.
▶ 4:00:59Chair Paul: I think these are good points because in moving forward things have not been perfect. Not holding your gun and holding a camera at the same time sounds like a pretty easy one. You probably should not do that. I think we went over this earlier but a verbal altercation, people are backing away. I think we acknowledged that pepper spraying someone backing away was not recommended policy.
▶ 4:01:27Mr. Scott: How you outlined it, yes.
▶ 4:01:31Mr. Lyons: Yes.
▶ 4:01:33Chair Paul: I think we have made progress on some of these things. It is important because your agents are watching this too and you have to let everyone know what the policies are. Things have not been perfect and there needs to be -- you might not believe me but my goal is not to make it harder for you. My goal is to restore trust of the organization and I think that is through honest self-assessment. Senator fetterman.
▶ 4:02:00Sen. Fetterman: I am happy to defer to my friend and colleague from michigan. >> you go ahead.
▶ 4:02:09Sen. Fetterman: . Ok. This might be a little off topic with some of the questions that have been brought here. But how many billions did the big beautiful bill allow or amount for I.c.e. Effectively?
▶ 4:02:33Mr. Lyons: About $75 billion.
▶ 4:02:37Sen. Fetterman: A.I. Says it is $75 billion. Is that accurate?
▶ 4:02:44Mr. Lyons: Yes, sir.
▶ 4:02:46Sen. Fetterman: Everyone here never voted for the big beautiful bill, correct? Ok. Can we establish now that I.c.e. Has plenty of money right now? That vote is going to come about shutting down dhs because a lot of people including myself would like to see some changes made.
▶ 4:03:16Sen. Fetterman: But if that vote happens and dhs is shut down, would that have any impact on I.c.e. Operations? They have $75 billion from the big beautiful bill.
▶ 4:03:27Mr. Lyons: It would impact personnel actions. I mean as far as pay and retention, the civilian workforce, it would affect that.
▶ 4:03:37Sen. Fetterman: In other words, if people vote to shut down, what other parts are in dhs?
▶ 4:03:44Mr. Lyons: Components?
▶ 4:03:47Sen. Fetterman: No, how many other operations, departments or in dhs?
▶ 4:03:54Mr. Lyons: Coast guard, fema, cbp.
▶ 4:04:00Sen. Fetterman: Fema, ok.
▶ 4:04:03Mr. Lyons: Cisa.
▶ 4:04:08Sen. Fetterman: Cybersecurity, so that would shut down?
▶ 4:04:12Mr. Lyons: Yes.
▶ 4:04:14Sen. Fetterman: Another one, tsa.
▶ 4:04:17Mr. Lyons: Tsa would shut down. Yes.
▶ 4:04:20Sen. Fetterman: If someone votes to shut down dhs, they are not having any meaningful functional impact on I.c.e. Because they have unlimited money effectively for right now, right?
▶ 4:04:32Mr. Lyons: Yes, sir.
▶ 4:04:34Sen. Fetterman: So you are going to punish all of these other parts, the very important parts of our government, tsa, coast guard, fema and cybersecurity. That is the statement if we announce to our enemies our cybersecurity agency, we will shut that down. If I want to make a move, that probably makes it better. Is that an accurate statement?
▶ 4:05:05Mr. Lyons: That is a fair assessment, yes, sir.
▶ 4:05:10Sen. Fetterman: Here I am, a democrat. I think I ran the whole gamut. I met with secretary noem and I have always treated her with respect. I met with her in my office and I refused and I never will engage on the kinds of sexist terms like I.c.e. Barbie. The left uses those kinds of things.
▶ 4:05:40Sen. Fetterman: I said I am a democrat. Secure our border, yes. And deport all of the criminals. Yes. I think we can all sign up on that. My friend katie britt came to me and said we want to bring the laken riley bill. Again, I was going to bring the democrat to bring that there to cosponsor as the democrat. I believe we should have those kinds of appropriate things.
▶ 4:06:11Sen. Fetterman: I was also the democrat that described by party's failure in 2022 and 2023 that we are failing on the border. It is not sustainable. It brings me to right now where I think we can all hopefully agreed that we want to avoid and we have to make some changes to make sure there is not another tragedy in mid a lab -- tragedy in minneapolis.
▶ 4:06:42Sen. Fetterman: For me what is happening in minneapolis makes the public unsafe, it makes the agents unsafe and I think they have lost the plot. We are not focused on securing our border and deporting and targeting criminals.
▶ 4:07:01Sen. Fetterman: As a probe border, pro deport all the criminals, what is the answer moving forward where I think the vast majority of americans signed up for those things. We want to focus more on those two things that I think.
▶ 4:07:22Mr. Lyons: I will go first. I agree with you. The big thing is the rhetoric and the temperature. We are completely dedicated to ensuring that we are enforcing immigration as well as getting the worst of the wares and prioritizing that. People cannot be encouraged to go out there and actually get involved in a law enforcement operation that they should not be added.
▶ 4:07:51Mr. Lyons: I am not saying the impediment of the first amendment. What we saw was the impeding of law enforcement officers. I think dad and actually helping us to hold those who dox I.c.e. Agents accountable will go so much further for public safety overall.
▶ 4:08:11Sen. Fetterman: I have about one minute left. Within the next two hours, dhs is going to be effectively shutting down. I want to remind everybody that I.c.e. Has plenty of money and that vote to shut down dhs will have no functional impact on I.c.e. Because they have that $75 million from the big beautiful bill, correct?
▶ 4:08:37Mr. Lyons: Yes, sir.
▶ 4:08:39Sen. Fetterman: I return.
▶ 4:08:43Chair Paul: Senator slotkin.
▶ 4:08:46Sen. Slotkin: Thank you for being here. I think that secretary noem should be here. You want the big job accountabid you want the big job accountabid be seeing the secretary of homeland security coming out front of the american people and certainly the oversight committee when we have such existential issues about the deployment of federal force in our country going on. But you are here in her place.
▶ 4:09:14Sen. Slotkin: If we wound the tape to a year and a half ago, you have a lot of americans who felt very strongly that if you are here illegally, especially if you are involved in any kind of criminal activity, you should be deported. You need strong borders. I am a cia officer. We need an immigration policy that allows us to do that. That enforcement would have been something the average american supported. Let the conduct of I.c.e.
▶ 4:09:44Sen. Slotkin: In places like -- but the conduct of I.c.e. In places like minneapolis has now been arranged to the point where people say I was for enforcement but I am not for authoritarian style federal goons on our streets. That is coming from michigan. Michigan voted for donald trump.
▶ 4:10:12Sen. Slotkin: It is coming from people who say I am for enforcement but I am not for tramping basic rights. Americans have an internal barometer for what looks and smells authoritarian and whether it is shooting someone who is unarmed or pepper spraying kids or picking people up as they walk into the target and checking their papers. That is an internal barometer that we all have.
▶ 4:10:36Sen. Slotkin: We are here today and this firestorm is here not because of people on the ground but because of your behavior in I.c.e. I think when you extrapolate out and you listen to what the president and his cabinet are saying, I have to ask about our 2026 elections.
▶ 4:10:59Sen. Slotkin: The president says we should federalize our elections even though the constitution was written by our founders to give that power to the states so that we would never have a president who took too much power and tried to become a king. He has tried to get voter rolls including in my state. He has complained that elections are not free and fair. In 2020 he came up with a playbook to deploy federal law enforcement around polling places.
▶ 4:11:29Sen. Slotkin: The white house spokeswoman will not rule that out as of one month and a half ago. I have to ask Mr. lyons, do you believe that I.c.e. Has the authority to be deployed to U.S. polling places the country?
▶ 4:11:43Mr. Lyons: Obviously we do civil enforcement and criminal law enforcement. There is no reason for us to deploy to a polling facility. >> if the president of the united states gets kristi noem on the phone and, I need you to go and physically deploy around polling locations, you will say no?
▶ 4:12:11Mr. Lyons: There is no reason for us to deploy. >> then you should say no.
▶ 4:12:16Mr. Lyons: A point of clarification. We investigate voter fraud and we have made several arrests. Most recently one in massachusetts.
▶ 4:12:29Sen. Slotkin: That is very different than the physical intimidation. I am talking about something that I think would be extraordinary in american history which is uniformed and masked I.c.e. Agents circling polling places. It is not fantasy. It is not made up. These are things that the president and his cabinet have suggested. They have suggested invoking the insurrection act which would allow active duty military to do the very same thing.
▶ 4:13:02Sen. Slotkin: This is not someone who thinks the sky is falling. The president and his cabinet are suggesting. You will be standing in the breach.
▶ 4:13:09Mr. Lyons: There is no reason to use I.c.e. Officers.
▶ 4:13:14Sen. Slotkin: I hope when that comes down and the president feels like he will lose the midterm elections, that you do not buckle. I think our democracy is dependent on it. Coupled with that, you have heard from my colleagues about labeling people as domestic terrorists. What is the definition of a domestic terrorist?
▶ 4:13:34Mr. Lyons: A domestic terrorist is any organization that, you know, on american soil that is involved in acts of treason, violence and extremism against a group or a country.
▶ 4:13:56Sen. Slotkin: Actually in law it is defined by the patriot act, the clearest place we have it and it has to be tied to criminal activity. Protesting, even if you don't like it, protesting of I.c.e. Agents unarmed and without destroying property, is that a domestic terrorist?
▶ 4:14:15Mr. Lyons: No, ma'am. That is covered under the first amendment.
▶ 4:14:21Sen. Slotkin: When the president and stephen miller and others in the cabinet including your boss kristi noem label people like renee good domestic terrorists, you understand why we cannot trust what you are doing with the information you are collecting on these so-called domestic terrorists.
▶ 4:14:39Sen. Slotkin: Can you tell us under oath does the department of home and security contain a database of domestic terrorists, license plates, c1
▶ 4:15:00Mr. Lyons: No, ma'am. We don't have a database. If there is a criminal case that may involve some type of domestic terrorist organization, homeland security investigations has evolved across the board and embedded with joint terrorism task force we do conduct those there there is no database for that.
▶ 4:15:21Sen. Slotkin: Sen. slotkin: do you contribute data to any other federal agencies database?
▶ 4:15:23Mr. Lyons: No, ma'am.
▶ 4:15:24Sen. Slotkin: The fact that we have eyes agents -- I.c.e. Agent saying they are trying to arrest or engage with that we will put you into a database is erroneous, they are making data? -- making that up?
▶ 4:15:38Mr. Lyons: We do not do that.
▶ 4:15:45Sen. Slotkin: Given the president put out an executive order in september and said he wants a list of domestic terrorist groups to use the full weight of the federal government to go against me you can imagine , you can imagine they will feel at risk. I think the conduct of your agency has put us in a position where the average american does not know whether to trust law enforcement and that is terrible and scary. Given what law enforcement on the ground and our states do.
▶ 4:16:17Sen. Slotkin: I would just say if we do not have serious reform and change, then you will be contributing to the average american who woke up a supportive of law enforcement being terrified that they and their community will be next. I yield back.
▶ 4:16:30Chair Paul: Thank you. We are almost at an end. I think we have had a good hearing. I think a lot of knowledge came forward. . The idea that you guys want to restore and the agencies, and we will work on the, and I hope that's true. With regard to what I mentioned before, the attorney general says he will cooperate with final orders. You've got a bunch of final orders.
▶ 4:16:59Chair Paul: I would love to see you go for specific people that you send a letter to the minneapolis police and say, will you help us, we need 10 policemen to round up this guy. And I would like to see their response. You should quote him from the hearing. He said he is for final orders. I think that is different than the policy that has been enforced. Let's challenge him on the. Those are battles you can win those are political battles.
▶ 4:17:21Chair Paul: Also if you would send to my office specific times when you have been turned down and asked for a request, everyone because they are not helping, I want to know you are asking and being turned down. That should be publicized and we are happy to publicize that. I think there are problems on both sides of the equation here. The way we make them better is by making sure everybody knows about these things. I do appreciate your cooperation, I would like to thank our witnesses here today. .
▶ 4:17:51Chair Paul: The record for this hearing will remain open until 5:00 p.m. Friday, february 13, 2026 for the submission of statements and questions. Hearing is now adjourned.