▶ 0:17:05Chair Cassidy: Thechair cassidy: committee will please come to order. People love sports. They go to bars just to watch a game. I believe that purple and gold, any team in my state, I believe in their colors. There's nothing like a great football game at lsu desmet -- death valley. Get up early, tailgate, watch the game with your friends until it's time to go to the stadium. It brings people together.
▶ 0:17:36Chair Cassidy: Ashley moody and I connect over sec sports, even though she is a florida fan. More importantly, though, as important as that is, student athletes can change the trajectory of their life by participating in college athletics.
▶ 0:17:57Chair Cassidy: Collis temple, a good friend of mine, one of our witnesses, will speak of that student athlete from a small rural town breaking out of poverty, having opportunities they never could have imagined because they get an athletic scholarship. The family, good people, parents didn't go to college, the athlete then goes to college.
▶ 0:18:25Chair Cassidy: Maybe the only way they could go to colleges with a scholarship. They see the broader world in their life changes. Sports give these young people that chance. Parents want it for their children. By the way, not that we need to, just for context, we all know it, sports is an economic goldmine -- gold. Lsu football games bring in millions to baton rouge. Hotels and restaurants.
▶ 0:18:56Chair Cassidy: I go to phil's oyster bar and if lsu wins the game, his business is great for the whole week. People go to bars and restaurants. The school benefits. The endowment at the school benefits. In many ways, there's great economic impact. College admissions, application rates to a school that has just won a national championship goes up.
▶ 0:19:21Chair Cassidy: We can continue to speak about this multibillion-dollar impact, not just on the student, but on the university, the community, and the state. All of that in a setting, and I bring this up, people call it a wild west. That context, and il and everything that has occurred, it's spontaneous, people say it's a wild west. For the first time, student athletes are sharing revenue.
▶ 0:19:54Chair Cassidy: Coached cover bill who I'm sure we'll be here later, said that when he was a coach, he advocated for that from the get go. They were saying there should be revenue-sharing. It's a good thing. The bad thing is, I gather, that some people are praying upon these young athletes. Not praying like dear lord bless their lives. Like sign this contract and the contract is not to the advantage of the student athlete.
▶ 0:20:24Chair Cassidy: Exploiting them to make decisions that sometimes leave them without a degree. Without being set up for future success. Knowing that according to the coach, only .2% of these athletes will play in the problems. The highest number I've heard is 2%. Whatever it is, 98% to 99% of these athletes will not play in the pros. The goal of their experience at university should be to set them up for life.
▶ 0:20:52Chair Cassidy: The question is, is that happening? Now, clearly the student athlete should share in the revenue. But it is a false choice to say that we must choose between them receiving no revenue sharing in the current system that spontaneously people call the wild west, where as many as 98%, maybe not quite that, but a significant percent will lose that set up for success for the rest of their life.
▶ 0:21:19Chair Cassidy: So, it is fair to say that the decisions, the lack of rules, the hamper leadership has created confusion and potentially opened the door to explication. A common theme that I hear aside from wild west is that the current system is not sustainable. Title ix violations may be something to consider. We should consider it. Make sure. If title ix is being violated, we should address it.
▶ 0:21:50Chair Cassidy: There doesn't seem to be enough money to turn a student athlete into an employee athlete. Simultaneously funding nonrevenue sports. What I'm hearing is that if the expense increases too much, schools will cut nonrevenue sports and as a result cut off thousands of young people's chances to go to college.
▶ 0:22:12Chair Cassidy: By the way, you cannot eliminate women's sports because of title ix, but you can reduce how much money is being invested and shared with players and that's not what we want. Most colleges, most colleges, sports are not profitable.
▶ 0:22:32Chair Cassidy: So, the president of the naia warned that a round table that many small and medium-sized colleges would not be able to survive the costs of collective bargaining. Think about it. Is senator baldwin still here? I would be interested in the impact on high point if they could keep their basketball program in the ncaa tournament that took out wisconsin. You'll get your chance.
▶ 0:23:09Chair Cassidy: The current landscape is replacing one unfair system for another, short-term gain with and il deals overshadowing the value of education, olympic sports. The majority of these student athletes will not go pro. We must encourage them to get their education and make sure they are set up for success. Any solution that we come up with must protect the student athlete.
▶ 0:23:40Chair Cassidy: The power four conferences represent less than 10% of student athletes. Again, you constantly hear people ask -- will congress do something? This committee has a responsibility over education, labor, pensions, and health. We should tackle it. So that students and institutions can navigate it without burden of costs.
▶ 0:24:03Chair Cassidy: This hearing is how do we set up the student athlete for success, whether he or she attends a power five, naia, hs -- for just bc, and take care of the universities as well. Thank you to our witnesses for being here. With that, I recognize senator murphy.
▶ 0:24:24Sen. Sanders: Great to sit --
▶ 0:24:28Senator Murphy: Great to sit next to you at this hearing. I appreciate your willingness to put this hearing on. As you note, our jurisdiction over this critical issue. Like you, I'm a huge college sports fan and a huge college basketball fan in particular. My state stops on weeks like this to follow the men's and women's teams in the tournament. Much of my life has been shaped by playing and watching sports.
▶ 0:24:57Senator Murphy: I wasn't good enough to play in college, but I would not have needed to be paid. I would have paid to play sports in college. That is how important it was to me in my upbringing. So, what I see is that our mission is to save college sports. There is so much good that comes from it. Senator cassidy, you talked about the athletes who get so much from their participation that lives are changed.
▶ 0:25:27Senator Murphy: But I also think about the way that fandom brings together people across political and cultural spectrums to root for their local team. College sports is a unifying exercise in our country and it is a part of what's great about america. But greed and big business is threatening the college sports model. Especially those big moneymaking sports like football and basketball.
▶ 0:25:55Senator Murphy: The model has become extractive and explicated. In no other billion-dollar industry in america are wages controlled so vigorously and unfairly for the most valuable employees. High-value athletes who labor under a system of collusion and wage suppression are not going to do it for much longer.
▶ 0:26:21Senator Murphy: Either the top performing players are going to abandon college athletics, which is already happening to an extent in college basketball. Or the supreme court is going to eventually rule that the system is illegal and unconstitutional. With the unanimous nine-zero decision, brett kavanaugh, conservative justice, said nowhere else in america can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate.
▶ 0:26:52Senator Murphy: I know the solution of the ncaa in its most powerful schools. They want us to just patch -- pass legislation that limits the ability for the highest value athletes to earn a fair market rate. Exactly what the unanimous supreme court decision said was so wrong about college athletics.
▶ 0:27:12Senator Murphy: They want a fig leaf to pacify athletes, some compensation, but far less than what they are worth so that the adults, the high earning coaches, sports industry ceos, and others can keep their position of primacy as the primary monetary beneficiaries in the system. Let's just put all of our cards on the table here.
▶ 0:27:36Senator Murphy: Part of what makes this corrupt is that this is an economically unfair system and it is also a question of civil rights. It should be lost on anybody that the people who make the most money off of continued wage restriction would be white male adults in the people who would lose the most are young, black athletes.
▶ 0:27:59Senator Murphy: The score act, which is in the house now, is an effort to put the big schools back in a position where they can collude and wage suppress. It fails to require timeline compliance that mandates equitable treatment for female athletes, barring players from being considered employees, granting the ncaa antitrust exemptions. It wouldn't solve the problem, it would permanently push the highest valued athletes out of college sports and it would diminish the experience for everyone.
▶ 0:28:31Senator Murphy: Over a dozen organizations have come out a grunt -- against it, including the congressional black caucus. Two final things. First, I hope we talk about the impact on the so-called olympic sports and women's sports. I acknowledge that that is a really important issue here.
▶ 0:28:49Senator Murphy: But personally, I suspect it's a red herring to suggest that there is not enough money in the existing system to be able to both fairly compensate the highest value athletes in high revenue sports and continue high-level college athletics in the other sports and for women. I think that sounds like a scare tactic to try to preserve the current system in which the very rich folks stay very rich.
▶ 0:29:20Senator Murphy: Let me be clear, the current system that we have now, the nontransparent and il deals, secret booster collectives, players moving teams every year, it's not worth defending either. It is better for the athletes than the old system, but it's also not working.
▶ 0:29:39Senator Murphy: I've introduced legislation to college players association so that athletes can share directly the schools and frankly keep college out of micromanaging college sports. That's the best way forward. I do submit that we need to fix what was wrong with the old system but also what is wrong with the existing system. That is why I think this hearing is so timely and so important. Mr.
▶ 0:30:08Senator Murphy: Chairman, thank you for allowing me to join on the dais this morning.
▶ 0:30:11Chair Cassidy: Thank you. For the people watching, in this committee we would not have jurisdiction over issues of antitrust, the collective and wage restrictions.
▶ 0:30:25Chair Cassidy: I suppose there could be something around labor unions, which we do have jurisdiction over, but there is no ability to regulate what a university would pay an athlete, for the folks, and I know senator murphy knows that, but for the folks in the room. Let's start with our witnesses.
▶ 0:30:45Chair Cassidy: We will introduce each witness as their turn comes up and I will introduce the republican witnesses and I assume you introduce the democratic witnesses. First we are joined by collis temple. Member of the board of supervisors.
▶ 0:31:03Chair Cassidy: He played basketball at lsu, professionally with the ada, the first african-american major sports scholar athlete to attend louisiana state university and has been a mentor to generations of athletes since. Among his many entrepreneurial ventures he's a real estate developer, builder, established nonprofit organization housing over 5000 individuals including foster youth, educated youth, and those with disabilities and challenges.
▶ 0:31:32Chair Cassidy: Earning his bachelors and masters in business administration from lsu. Mr. temple, thank you for joining us. Each of you have five minutes. Sir, if you can hit the button in front of you, the microphone, the clock is ticking.
▶ 0:31:45Mr. Temple: Senators, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to share with you. As you may or may not know, I was here a couple of weeks ago when we were discussing in a roundtable discussion this really, really important topic.
▶ 0:32:09Mr. Temple: When we speak about college athletics, I heard a moment ago someone make a comment about the fact that people aren't able to, the majority of people are not able to make the pros. What I do is I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, the fact that every student athlete goes to a university and completes an academic performance standard has the opportunity to be a pro.
▶ 0:32:39Mr. Temple: We just need to realize that pros are mathematicians, pros are scientists, pros are english teachers. Pros are congressmen. Pros are senators. Pros are people who have a lifetime of opportunity to have a lifetime of success in whatever endeavor they meet and whatever challenges they need as they ascend through the college ranks.
▶ 0:33:06Mr. Temple: Now, we all know we are talking about money, dollars and cents here. One of the things that is really significant is that the major players in our community, and you know, I consider, most of us consider the major players being our elected officials at the very highest rank. We are talking about senators. Talking about congressman.
▶ 0:33:35Mr. Temple: We have the opportunity to write a ship that is quickly fading into the depths of the ocean when we talk about college athletics. And not being able to correct the things that need to be corrected. Now, there are some simple measures that should be put in place. We need to put up guardrails so that there is an age limit involved in college athletics.
▶ 0:34:06Mr. Temple: When you say -- what kind of age limit guardrails? We are certainly all aware that a 17, 18, 19-year-old athlete is almost impossible for that athlete to compete with a 23, 24, 25, 26-year-old college athlete. I mean it's just, it's almost impossible.
▶ 0:34:28Mr. Temple: Coached iberville can make that really clear, you know, if you have a average age of 24, 20 5, 26-year-old guys competing against 18, 19, 20-year-old guys , there's just no way you will have college guys out playing professional guys. That needs to be the guardrail of age. I know that this is getting down in the weeds, but these are the kinds of things that need to be put in place.
▶ 0:34:56Mr. Temple: When you talk about the issue of making sure that the athletes are prepared for life in the professional ranks, you are talking about putting young folk in a place in college where they can have access to academic performances that involve, that involve training and financial literacy, and other kinds of
▶ 0:35:28Mr. Temple: Specific things that will involve them being able to maneuver through life after their athletic careers are over in college. And professionally. I am sure that most of you have heard about many of the things that impact young athletes who come out of college, leading to early or some who come out and are not prepared for things in the professional ranks.
▶ 0:35:54Mr. Temple: The tax structure will eat these young folk alive if they are not familiar at all with how that process works. That's something that's really, really important. So, a simple thing to do is to put some standards in place so that student athletes, not on the line, but in person, are involved in aphid -- academic performances in college so that you can put things in place freshman year so that they are involved in financial literacy
▶ 0:36:28Mr. Temple: Course type work. There are a number of other things that need to be addressed . And like, I'm making a comment about being in the weeds and it not being something that some folk would think about, but this literacy thing is so critically important. Also, having access to proper management.
▶ 0:36:54Mr. Temple: Having people who are not just fly-by-night folk who manage these people plus finances and who are not trained to help preserve the future as they move forward in the financial and professional worlds. That's a number of things that need to be addressed here. I'm really glad to be here to share in them today. Thank you.
▶ 0:37:23Chair Cassidy: I would be remiss in not saying that Mr. temple is a personal friend. Next, I just found out today that Dr. scott is a baton rouge native. Unfortunately, went to texas a&m to play football. [laughter] >> very briefly.
▶ 0:37:45Chair Cassidy: He is, let me get my introduction, sorry, he is the inaugural vice president for inter-collegial athletics at the state university and has led a strategic innovation era on institutional growth and developed and implemented the departmental strategic plans for sport programs.
▶ 0:38:09Chair Cassidy: Has promoted his profile of the university in multiple ways, putting major facility enhancements. Competitively the department has achieved multiple southwest athletic conference championships and postseason success while academically posting a 970 apr.
▶ 0:38:31Chair Cassidy: I will also point out that but I was a young person, except for notre dame, gremlin had morphed pro football players in the nfl than any other school. Grambling has a rich academic history. Their head coach, eddie robinson, is the second in terms of most winds next to joe paterno. Dr. scott, thank you for being here, we look forward to your perspective.
▶ 0:38:57Mr. Scott: Thank you for having me as well. That's a perfect segue from coach robinson and everything he was able to achieve in his tenure, leading to diversity. I would like to begin my testimony by making one of his famous quotes that is still relevant today. The tale is about to wag the dog.
▶ 0:39:27Mr. Scott: When the coach spoke these words before congress july 31, 1984 he was issuing a warning, grounded in foresight and experience. In the wake of the ncaa versus board of regents at the university of oklahoma, stripping the ncaa of the control over tenant -- television rights, he recognized that this era was emerging.
▶ 0:39:49Mr. Scott: One where exposure, revenue, and influence would no longer be equal and distributed, rather concentrated among institutions with the most resources and visibility. He understood that television was not just a platform, but a power structure that would shape recruiting, funding, and competitive balance, leaving under resourced programs at a systemic disadvantage.
▶ 0:40:14Mr. Scott: At grambling we don't speak about it in theory, we speak from lived experience because of the coach and what he was able to achieve. For a century we have stood as a place where opportunity was created in the absence of resources, were excellent was built through discipline and young men and women from underrepresented communities found a pathway to education, leadership, and economic mobility.
▶ 0:40:41Mr. Scott: A program with history in person -- purpose, the coach didn't simply build a winning program, it was a model of transformation that change lives, families, and communities through generations. Coach robinson's warning was not about resisting change, but about preserving the purpose of college athletics.
▶ 0:41:06Mr. Scott: He first cash fear that as external influences gained, the focus of the system would be overshadowed. Speaking on behalf of institutions without equal access to these growing revenue streams, we call for intentionality. For safeguards that would ensure equity and, yes, for opportunity to remain central to the model. His words were a challenge to decision-makers to consider not just what college athletics could become, but what it should remain.
▶ 0:41:39Mr. Scott: That warning has come to pass in today's collegiate athletics landscape. What was once a caution has now become our reality. From the perspective of a division I athletics director at a low resourced ncaa institution , the forecast has materialized into a series of oppression structural realities that must be addressed with clarity and urgency.
▶ 0:42:03Mr. Scott: As the vice president of intercollegiate athletics I carry the responsibility of leading a program rooted in tradition, opportunity, and transformation. My perspective shaped not only by my professional experience in collegiate athletics but also on my time at a low resource institution as a college athlete.
▶ 0:42:24Mr. Scott: Today I have the privilege of serving student athletes in making sure they are supported academically in an increasingly complex environment. We are operating in a system where competitive balance is no longer a shared expectation, but an increasingly distant idea. Institutions with substantial financial backing exist in a different reality than those without.
▶ 0:42:48Mr. Scott: The gap is visible to set fees, staffing, and ultimately in outcomes. Without a unified national framework, disparities have widened it to the point where equity is no longer the goal. Survival is. Competitive balance has shifted into something far more complex than wins and losses.
▶ 0:43:11Mr. Scott: Programs with access to significant financial resources are functioning in a different ecosystem altogether and are able to invest heavily in compensation opportunities that others simply cannot. For institutions without the resources, the challenge is not just competing on the field, it is competing for relevance, visibility, and the ability to retain talent that has already been developed.
▶ 0:43:37Mr. Scott: The gap continues to get wider and without structural intervention, it becomes increasingly difficult to close. Opportunity, which has long been the heartbeat of collegiate athletics, is also being constrained. Extended eligibility and shifting policies have slumbered roster determinations, directly impacting the number of available scholarships at underfunded institutions where the scholarships represent incredible investment.
▶ 0:44:08Mr. Scott: Talented high school student athletes are finding fewer entry points and programs are forced to make difficult decisions on how to allocate already difficult resources. Limited, difficult resources. Recruiting becomes less about potential and more about the immediate need.
▶ 0:44:35Mr. Scott: As administrators we are forced into difficult decisions that ripple into high school relationships, recruiting pipelines, and the long sermon -- long-term sustainability of our programs. The consequence is not abstract. It is fewer scholarships, fewer roster spots, fewer chances for the next generation of student athletes waiting for an opportunity. [inaudible] sure.
▶ 0:45:07Mr. Scott: I will close here. The score act establishes a national framework for name, likeness, and activity as institutions are a fire to carefully evaluate how resources support institutional involvement and distribution.
▶ 0:45:24Mr. Scott: And il compensation is largely driven by market demand and individual responsibility but universities cannot forget the support structures surrounding the opportunities, creating a nuanced challenge as institutions must navigate a space where free market dynamics intersect federal compliance obligations. Collegiate athletics is a uniquely american institution full of opportunity.
▶ 0:45:54Mr. Scott: It must be allowed to you as such. I would not be sitting here in this room today, a kid from north baton rouge, without collegiate sports opening a door for me. I want the door to remain open for young men and women to follow. The warning for the coach was never about control. It was about consequence. Now, the responsibility to respond belongs to us. Thank you, Mr. share.
▶ 0:46:23Chair Cassidy: Thank you. Of next we will hear from abby lynch, 2025 graduate who earned an undergraduate degree in finance at the school of business. Earnings academic big ten honors twice, completing her two-year term representing the big ten conference in the association division I advisory committee, working as a panelist at a
▶ 0:46:53Chair Cassidy: Health care management consulting firm in chicago, bringing a unique perspective having played multiple sports. Thank you.
▶ 0:47:00Ms. Lynch: Thank you so much, senator cassidy. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be here today. I'm abigail lynch, former dual sports student at the university of illinois who had the privilege of alongside some of the country's best athletes while earning a world-class education. I am here representing the voices of hundreds of thousands of student athletes. College athletics is not broken.
▶ 0:47:29Ms. Lynch: Every day, student athletes trained rigorously and compete at the highest level while repairing for life after sport. This uniquely american system continues to produce some of the most talented athletes and leaders in the world while expanding access higher education for individuals who may not have otherwise had the opportunity. My own experience reflects that.
▶ 0:47:52Ms. Lynch: At illinois I competed for four years in soccer and track, balancing a full course load in two teams sometimes felt impossible dealing with injuries. In those moments, the system around me made all the difference.
▶ 0:48:07Ms. Lynch: I had access to athletic trainers and team doctors that allowed me to recover and continue competing at a high level, and at the same time my coaches and athletic advisors reinforce that I was a student first, holding me accountable in the classroom, holding me to my athletic goals and achievements. I may not have been the most talented athlete, the college athletics gave me something arguably more important.
▶ 0:48:35Ms. Lynch: Discipline, leadership, lifelong relationships. The experienced work as it was founded in support and enlightenment, not solely athletic performance. I'm here to protect and advocate for the system that provided a life-changing -- life-changing experience for us and so many others. While not broken, college athletics is becoming increasingly unstable.
▶ 0:49:02Ms. Lynch: Many of these changes often come with consistent national standards. Teams experienced significant crossover from year-over-year and so many transfer many times without meaning -- making meaningful academic progress. The instability is unsustainable and not in the best interest of student athletes. We need a prep -- a path forward that continues to expand opportunities.
▶ 0:49:28Ms. Lynch: As you consider the future of college athletics, I encourage caution in broadly classifying student athletes as employees. Student athletes should have the opportunity to benefit from their name, image, and likeness, and the value they create, however a sweeping employment model could have unintended consequences, risking shifting the focus away from education and development and it could impact resources like health care and student athlete
▶ 0:49:58Ms. Lynch: Development. Such a model also reads as a significant concern for olympic and nonrevenue sports in there are really important considerations around title ix opportunities. The potential costs and consequences of such a shift are too high. There is a clear need for a consistent national framework.
▶ 0:50:19Ms. Lynch: Right now, college athletics operates under a patchwork of state laws, institutional policies and legal challenges, creating inequities between institutions and conferences, making it difficult to establish fair and consistent rules. A favorable an il framework on activity would help to restore competitive equity and provide much-needed clarity to all.
▶ 0:50:46Ms. Lynch: Third, we need a structure that allows these girls -- rules to be enforced. Without certain legal protections, act -- efforts to face consistent rules will have challenges. Rules without teeth are just words on paper. To protect all athletes and ensure feign it -- fairness, we need a system and governing body capable of maintaining standards instability.
▶ 0:51:13Ms. Lynch: And they must meet the student athlete at the center, maintaining access to health care, education, scholarships, and resources like financial literacy. At its core, the issue is not political. It is about sports that are meant to bring us all together. College athletics does need to be torn down and rebuilt. He needs to be stabilized and modernized in a thoughtful way. We have the opportunity to get right with a path to balance opportunity instability and I am hopeful we can find it together.
▶ 0:51:45Ms. Lynch: Thank you so much for your dedication to public service and commitment to betterment for college sports. Appreciate your time today.
▶ 0:51:56Chair Cassidy: Senator murphy?
▶ 0:51:57Sen. Murphy: I would like to introduce to the committee mikayla pivec, organizer and cofounder of the college athlete players association, built to make sure college athletes are protected, educated, and fairly compensated. A professional basketball player and former oregon state women's basketball captain. Drafted 25th overall in the 2020 wnba draft.
▶ 0:52:27Sen. Murphy: Thank you for your work and for being here today.
▶ 0:52:28Ms. Pivec: Thank you, Mr. chairman, and distinguished members of this mikayla pivec committee. My name is, professional basketball player, former all-american as captain. I let my team before I was drafted to the wnba.
▶ 0:52:47Ms. Pivec: As a coordinating director of the united college athletics association giving college athletes a real voice in a system that is safe and fair, for generations. I grew up in lynnwood, washington, fell in love with basketball in third grade after my dad took me to a seattle storm game. The players there inspired me to chase my dreams. Every night, I made him rebound with me for hours.
▶ 0:53:20Ms. Pivec: By the time it got dark, he would always want to go to sleep and I would say just one more, just one more, and we would count down to a buzzer beater for march madness. I let my team to the elite eight, busted in front of millions. I even competed in front of sue bird. I was no longer on the playground with orange slices and participation trophies. I sacrificed everything to compete at this level because of how much I love our game.
▶ 0:53:49Ms. Pivec: But that is not why I'm here today. I am here today because the ncaa has failed and continues to fail to protect and respect college athletes. When I was in college, I worked 50 hours per week on mice for earning less than eight dollars from -- eight dollars per hour on a monthly stipend. Doordash to pay bills. Basketball was more than a full-time job in the university had complete control of my schedule.
▶ 0:54:16Ms. Pivec: Nal has helped some players, but most silver in less than $10 per hour and struggle to pay for basic necessities. The lack of protections goes beyond money. My senior year, I had a foot injury that needed surgery. Every step felt like I was stepping on a nail. I kept requesting m.r.I., but was denied every single time. I kept playing because I loved the game, but in retrospect I was denied the information I needed to make a decision about my health.
▶ 0:54:47Ms. Pivec: After graduating I needed knee surgery and had to pay for it out-of-pocket. I had a professional injury and received amateur medical care. My story is not unique. I have had conversations with thousands of athletes across the country and hear the same stories of players forced to play through serious injuries, broken bones, and concussions, business as usual from the nca.
▶ 0:55:13Ms. Pivec: The hearing is titled don't fumble their futures, but the truth is the ncaa has funded athletic futures for generations. My grandmother was forced to play and the ncaa was sued to block it. It hasn't been four years since they finally allowed women's basketball to use the term march madness only after public shaming from the weight room scandal.
▶ 0:55:38Ms. Pivec: Not only 7% of colleges are in compliance with title ix and the ncaa is spending millions to strip athletes of their labor rights, silence their voices, and give the ncaa a bailout. Our futures have been repeatedly fumbled. Why would congress even remotely consider entrusting the ncaa without bailout? They have professionalized every part of our game except the rights and protections of the athletes at the center of its growth.
▶ 0:56:08Ms. Pivec: Their business is professional, but the structure is amateur. That is why it needs to follow the lead on every professional sports league by negotiating a collective bargaining agreement with the players association. Cba is the best way to make college for it sustainable for athletes and universities, so that they can negotiate a solution that is good for both sides.
▶ 0:56:35Ms. Pivec: Athletes get in protections, safety mandates, academic freedoms, and fair pay, while universities get salary caps and tempering -- tampering restrictions. That's why multiple university support cba. Finally, congress should not support the score act, passed the score act or any legislation that limits athlete labor rights.
▶ 0:57:04Ms. Pivec: Instead I support the college athlete right to organize act introduced by senators sanders, murphy, and warren, and I commend the bipartisan leadership of senators cantwell and schmidt through their college sports competitive myths -- competitiveness act.
▶ 0:57:22Ms. Pivec: I want every little girl in the stands watching college athletes to know that when it is returned, she will step into a system that protects her as a person, educates her as a student and empowers her as a professional. That is what current in future generations deserve. Anything less would let them down and empower the ncaa to keep fumbling their futures. Thank you, I look forward to your questions.
▶ 0:57:46Chair Cassidy: Lastly, we have liam anderson, member of the national college players association players council, nonprofit advocacy organization working with past, present, and future athletes in all sports.
▶ 0:58:03Chair Cassidy: He's an alumnus of the stanford university track and field and cross country teams where he served as copresident of the student athlete advisory committee, representing all of the pac 12 athletes in 2024 at the ncaa convention. Thank you for your work, Mr. anderson.
▶ 0:58:20Mr. Anderson: Thank you, senator murphy. Good morning, chairman cassidy, members of the senate help committee. Thank you for inviting me to participate in today's hearing. I'm grateful for the opportunity to provide my perspective on these issues facing this great and uniquely american institution. My name is liam anderson and today I testify as a member of the national college players association council that advocates to protect college athletes.
▶ 0:58:50Mr. Anderson: As the senator said, I'm here is a former track" -- cross-country runner and academic who authored my thesis on many of the same challenges in college athletics at issue today. The challenges can be distilled into two questions. First, how we protect the economic and legal rights of the small subset of college athletes that generate tremendous revenues while preserving this invaluable formative experience for those playing olympic nonrevenue sports like I did.
▶ 0:59:22Mr. Anderson: Second, in answering that question, should the federal government regulate college athletics differently than it regulates every other industry in this country? With some very limited caveats, I believe the answer to the latter is a resounding no. The issues that brought us here today are readily solved by accepting the obvious eventuality that certain college athletes are employees.
▶ 0:59:46Mr. Anderson: Federal labor law provides a tried-and-true framework to resolve the issues through collective bargaining and there can be little question that athletes in the upper echelon of the ncaa meet the criteria for the status, namely football players in division I and women's basketball like those playing in march madness today.
▶ 1:00:08Mr. Anderson: Congress need not reinvent the wheel by conjuring up a unique employee classification, as some have contemplated, nor should they be barring college athletes from obtaining employee access is the score act proposes, doing so would deprive them of the people protections enjoyed by any other american.
▶ 1:00:28Mr. Anderson: The ncaa has numerous complaints about the regulatory schema that exists in the post settlement world, including a transfer portal that destroyed roster stability, the courts have enjoyed eligibility rules and district say -- state laws make an il unfair. Many of these complaints are well-founded.
▶ 1:00:51Mr. Anderson: With the ncaa solution begging congress to exempt from federal labor and antitrust law must be a nonstarter, if for no other reason than the issue of equal protection. Their real solution lies in the nonstatutory labor exemption.
▶ 1:01:09Mr. Anderson: Once division I basketball and football players are recognized as employees and subsequently choose to form unions, the ncaa and its members can negotiate collective bargaining with those unions on a mandatory subtext including compensation, workplace policies, and safety practices. It is their inability to enforce consistent rules on the subjects that preclude the ncaa from governing effectively.
▶ 1:01:33Mr. Anderson: With a collective bargaining agreement, the ncaa and its members can secure what they need most, including mutually agreeable transfer eligibility standards and an il leaves that are exempt from antitrust scrutiny. Industry leaders could decide tomorrow to recognize the subset of college athletes as employees . There is no statutory obstacle to their doing so.
▶ 1:02:00Mr. Anderson: But we need support from congress to affirmatively identify that some athletes are employees throughout the country . This is a real concern that congress should help to address. With many of the other purported reasons not to pursue collective bargaining, they are baseless. Consider the tired argument that employment status is incompatible with the academic mission of college athletics. This is an obvious force.
▶ 1:02:28Mr. Anderson: Countless college students are employed by their schools, some by their athletic departments and many of them are unionized. The ncaa also claims that athletes are sufficiently represented by the division I student athlete advisory committee. This is also a façade. I have been in those rooms and can tell you that they are as ineffectual as any company union . These arguments and their myriad other objections to collective bargaining are merely pretextual.
▶ 1:02:57Mr. Anderson: I will finish with this, every college athlete deserves a pathway to join an independent advocacy organization like the and cpa that is worthy of having health and safety protections enshrined into law. I will never forget sitting into the meetings on senate staff and listening to the parents of calvin dickey junior tell the story of their son who died after collapsing during his first day of college football at bucknell.
▶ 1:03:24Mr. Anderson: That's the gravity of what is at stake here. Any legislation passed must include sufficient health and safety protections and must ensure that college athletes received equal rights afforded to americans in every other industry in this country, including the protections guaranteed by federal labor and antitrust laws. The end cpa looks forward to working with the committee addressing these critical issues and I look forward to taking your questions.
▶ 1:03:53Chair Cassidy: Miss lynch, I will start with you. Obviously one thing at issue here, both senator murphy and the democratic -- it's employment status. You and your colleagues say a sweeping employment model could have unintended consequences, shifting focus away from education and development. Senator murphy also suggested that the negative impact on nonrevenue sports is a red herring.
▶ 1:04:26Chair Cassidy: Now, your thoughts? Do you think it is a red herring or real?
▶ 1:04:35Mr. Scott: -- Ms. lynch: thank you so much for your question. Sweeping model is not a red herring that it would be eight threat to women's sports, because it would be more expensive than you are expecting. Right now, even when we have a 20.5 million dollars cap that some schools are trying to pay out and reach, it is still getting very expensive for schools.
▶ 1:05:03Mr. Scott: This is only paying this amount of budget. Obviously, you can still negotiate caps under an employment model, but having to pay every student athlete gets really dicey. Under an employment model, also, we introduce title vii. This is where things get more complex.
▶ 1:05:24Mr. Scott: If we are under title vii, title ix is still on the floor it it doesn't completely go away, but the way that we balance women's sports and protect women's sports is not exactly clear in an employment model. So, just going forward, women's sports and olympic sports are threatened, at eight threat under an employment model just because we are not sure how caught -- how high the costs could be.
▶ 1:05:52Chair Cassidy: Dr. scott, you actually got to balance budgets. Tell me, you mentioned under resourced institutions. What would turning grambling student athletes into employees, how would that impact the opportunities the school provides, like scholarships, etc..
▶ 1:06:16Mr. Scott: Thank you for the question, senator. It would affect us in several areas. As employees, scholarships are a fringe benefit and become taxable. Could you imagine a student athlete and as a sport like soccer, bowling, tennis, models of equivalency, meaning you can get 0% or 1% up through a full scholarship.
▶ 1:06:45Mr. Scott: Imagine a student athlete receiving 25% of the scholarship and then having to use other student loans and pell grants to subsidize at 75%. Yet the 25% is taxable. That's just on the student side.
▶ 1:07:03Mr. Scott: Now, when you start to amass the financial strain in terms of the things that come with employees and employee relations, fringe benefits and the like, then you start to look at the strain individually and collectively that athletics apartments, particularly those in under resourced institutions, would begin to face.
▶ 1:07:24Mr. Scott: When you look at that, my belief is that roster spots would start to be introduced, specifically to those nonrevenue sports on the men's side, like at grammer state university where we have 15 sports meaning baseball will go first.
▶ 1:07:43Chair Cassidy: Thank you. I've only got one minute left. You speak eloquently about how to protect the student athlete from being exploited by those who do not have their best interests. Mr. temple, how would you suggest we do that?
▶ 1:08:05Mr. Temple: Well, I think that one key component is to put in place and activate a system that uses a level playing field. So, when you are speaking about the power conferences and athletes who participate in the power conferences, when you have a guy who is, who is moving from one school to another every year and he gets to a place where he
▶ 1:08:36Mr. Temple: Is not retaining any kind of academic performance, it's because he's not required to go to class, not required to participate in the academic component of where he is, after four years, he's just in a space that's not productive.
▶ 1:08:57Mr. Temple: So, the guardrails I speak about, these are things like making sure a person is only allowed to jump or move one time in a four or five year scholarship athletic pr scholarship athletic period. Because you cannot create any consistency if your moving from one space to another and you certainly are not able to perform academic standards if you are moving every year.
▶ 1:09:29Mr. Temple: Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. Those are the kinds of things that I think are critically important in designing a system that gives a level playing field.
▶ 1:09:43Chair Cassidy: Senator murphy?
▶ 1:09:45Sen. Murphy: Part of the reason I think this should be up to negotiation between students and universities is I don't want us in the business of micromanaging college athletics and how compensation works. That doesn't feel like our role. You described how much work you put into becoming a high-level athlete. How does it make you feel that your industry is coming here and asking to suppress your wages?
▶ 1:10:13Sen. Murphy: The music industry isn't coming here and asking for legislation to suppress the wages of 20-year-old pop stars. The tech industry is not coming here and asking to limit how much money a engineer or coder can make. But the ncaa is coming here to ask us to limit the amount of money that you can make. Specifically tell us what this means for women athletes.
▶ 1:10:40Sen. Murphy: Whether we like it or not, women athletes don't have as lucrative opportunities after college. For many of you, your primary opportunity to be able to make some money now like is in college. What is a like for you to be held to a different standard than other young, high-performing workers, and what does it mean for women to have wages suppressed by legislation?
▶ 1:11:07Ms. Pivec: Thank you for bringing up the limit -- the work it takes to be a college athlete. For all of us, such as the hours we put in during the school year, but the 10 years before that that we sacrificed just to have a chance to compete. It frustrates me that so many athletes before me continue to not be able to get their true value and how it is a job for manaus, these are workers in that's the reality of it.
▶ 1:11:35Ms. Pivec: We deserve our fair market value , just like the coaches and commissioners.
▶ 1:11:44Sen. Murphy: You participated in a "nonrevenue generating sport." how do you respond to these concerns around this ability for athletes in the universities your conferencing, working it out, how will it have an impact on women's sports or on olympic sports?
▶ 1:12:07Mr. Anderson: Thank you for the question. I don't think that olympic sports like mine or nonrevenue sports are going anywhere. There are plenty of schools that don't sponsor football or basketball and don't make money off of college sports and yet they still sponsor plenty of olympic nonrevenue sports because they see value in them for many of the reasons we discussed. These are leadership building experiences.
▶ 1:12:36Mr. Anderson: These are formative experiences for young men and women and there is valuable to -- value to that.
▶ 1:12:46Sen. Murphy: Mr. temple, really enjoyed spending time with you in our working. Joe mazzulla is a great coach from my favorite nba team, the celtics, but people don't come to watch him, they come to watch jason tatum and jaelyn brown. In the prose, the players are paid a lot more than the coaches.
▶ 1:13:09Sen. Murphy: In college sports, on average these coaches are making 10 times the amount of an il deals for the athletes. I hear your concerns and the guardrails that you want. Does it feel fundamentally fair to say that this is a multibillion dollar industry, and most of it is still all going to the coaches, to the sports industry ceos, to the million dollar salary athletic directors?
▶ 1:13:39Sen. Murphy: With the exception of a few high, how high-performing athletes at the schools, there's very little going to the kids. I know you want to put up guardrails and make sure it's done responsibly, but doesn't feel fair to you that the coaches in the adults are raking in such a big share of the money?
▶ 1:13:57Mr. Temple: Let's be realistic, all right? I guess in the 2425 march madness, we were all about it. The reality of march madness is if you do an analysis, financial analysis of what is taking place in a march madness activity, particularly on the men's side, but also on the women's side, I would venture to say that it is
▶ 1:14:28Mr. Temple: About a net $1.5 billion industry. A net 1.5 over five to seven weeks, net financial effect of . It is absolutely unfair to have these athletes, 64 teams in basketball I think maybe is 68,
▶ 1:14:58Mr. Temple: So you have 68 teams and that system is netting someone, the ncaa, the average division I high-level men's basketball coach earns probably $3 million a year. And then when he gets all his perks in place, it may be $4 million. Or $5 million.
▶ 1:15:30Mr. Temple: It is absolutely unfair what is going on. That is why in the previous discussion, I said I had a high degree of respect for what your comments were when you said these super athletes are not benefiting hardly at all. And they are just now in the last couple of years have been put in this position of being able to retain some of this money.
▶ 1:15:57Mr. Temple: Short-lived money because the majority of those guys probably won't play in the nba. That is another really narrow window to be able to get into that nba model and have a sustained earning capacity for 4, 5, 8, 10 years.
▶ 1:16:19Mr. Temple: From my perspective, we absolutely have to design some system in the system has not been designed properly by the ncaa. So we have to figure out another way to set up these guardrails for system that will be effective to share profit sharing and what have you.
▶ 1:16:40Sen. Murphy: I am way over my time. Thank you. >> I will recognize myself for a couple of questions. I always think about this complicated issue and I think about what is the goal? The goal of originally establishing school-based athletics were to teach character and physical fitness to the student athletes. That is how it started.
▶ 1:17:09Sen. Murphy: And it has only been in recent times with the coming of tv contracts that it actually became a big revenue sport or revenue source for schools. 360 division I schools and only 24 them make or don't lose money.
▶ 1:17:36Sen. Murphy: The big part of this is the power four schools, 68 of them, 19% of all of the division I at least ought to mention divisionii and iii. They are the source of most of that revenue. And so there's a lot of money involved but there are only a few schools making it.
▶ 1:18:00Sen. Murphy: Is this committee does have jurisdiction over education, the big thing that colleges are struggling with today, frankly, is the fact students can't afford to go there. The average student struggles to pay their tuition with demographic changes and changes in the economy, many colleges, unless there publicly subsidized from our struggling to even stay in business at all.
▶ 1:18:29Sen. Murphy: I don't know if everyone knows this, but most schools athletics programs are subsidized by fees that are paid for by other students at the school. This can be on average between $500 and $2000 per student.
▶ 1:18:51Sen. Murphy: One division I school gets 70% of its budget revenue by charging fees to the other students that are already struggling to go there. The idea that college athletics is full of a bunch of money is not true. Except for a handful of schools. And they are, as you said, Mr. scott, the tail wagging the dog right now. In this conversation.
▶ 1:19:20Sen. Murphy: And so I think we can narrow the question of how we are going to deal with just that group of people. Because I do, Ms. lynch, agree and you're sort of view of athletics because I'm very concerned -- I have a daughter who is a division I athlete and I see title ix being undermined by the fact we have so many student athletes coming from other countries that are taking scholarships away from american
▶ 1:19:52Sen. Murphy: Students. Student athletes at american colleges and universities. People think it is fine, it's great, that's a competition. But we are actually taking away in many cases opportunities from american students to receive a scholarship. Dr.
▶ 1:20:11Sen. Murphy: Scott, I am interested in -- I want you to elaborate on behalf of all of the schools that are not these revenue-makers, how do we design a system that protects the virtues that we love about sports but don't let the tail wag the dog because we have 100,000 other college athletes to go to schools that aren't making money?
▶ 1:20:37Dr. Scott: Thank you for that point. As I scribbled notes, I think that is the perfect question. I'm listening to the tennessee, ohio, tcu, boise state, but what about the gremlins, howards, southern's? I'm listening to --
▶ 1:21:04Sen. Husted: Why don't we collect the money and give it to other schools?
▶ 1:21:08Dr. Scott: If we have 331 division I units, we have only 68 that make arch madness.
▶ 1:21:24Dr. Scott: The southwest conference and mideast conference, for example, more often than not, they were involved in these planks and errors which provides great financial benefits to these institutions for a period of up to six years, but they have to make it because they have one did. As I sit here, I believe the sec may have gotten nine or 10 bids. The big ten may have gotten eight or nine bids.
▶ 1:21:51Dr. Scott: And so their opportunities to your point to have the tail that wags the dog rated my second point is this, we start talking about things that are short-lived, the dollars we are paying to these student athletes. What is going to happen when a student athlete who is making $200,000, $400,000, $500,000, $700,000?
▶ 1:22:20Dr. Scott: It doesn't take care of your academic responsibilities. It does not graduate or it does graduate and now they're making $50,000, $60,000, $80,000. Who is educating our student athletes on money management, time management? There is an entirely different responsibility here that I feel needs to be brought to the forefront. To correct and adjust the system that needs to be corrected.
▶ 1:22:45Sen. Husted: I have used my time in the chairman's back. I will send this back to him. Thank you. [inaudible]
▶ 1:22:59Sen. Baldwin: Ms. pivec, you highlight the low percentage of universities currently in full compliance with title ix. Title ix has been a critical tool in ensuring that all students are protected from sex-based discrimination. However, president trump and education secretary mcmahon have continually undermined title ix enforcement.
▶ 1:23:28Sen. Baldwin: They have spoken about their desire to dismantle the entire department of education. And it isn't just talk. At the start of this administration, over half of the staff at the department of education's office for civil rights received termination notices. They very office -- that very office is charged with enforcing title ix.
▶ 1:23:52Sen. Baldwin: It took 10 months for the administration to reverse course and resend those termination notices and has been reported it has already cost over $40 million in taxpayer funds to have these attorneys the civil rights division not investigate cases. As of last month, the trump administration has resolved zero cases of sexual harassment or assault.
▶ 1:24:19Sen. Baldwin: So from your perspective, do you feel dismantling the office charged with enforcing title ix protections helps advance women's sports?
▶ 1:24:29Ms. Pivec: Thank you for that question. Absolutely not. At the department of education has never pulled federal funding to enact that enforcement mechanism of title ix and I argue we need additional title ix strengthening through tightening up loopholes that currently exist.
▶ 1:24:48Ms. Pivec: If we really want to protect women sports, it is through addressing those loopholes that currently exist to address the 7% compliance rate, $1.1 billion shortfall scholarships and current opportunities that exist between men and women. And so I think we need to do a lot better job in those categories.
▶ 1:25:07Sen. Baldwin: Ms. pivec and Ms. lynch, you both shared in your written testimony your personal experience with sustaining a sports injury while in school, though you have had very different experiences with regard to those sports injuries.
▶ 1:25:28Sen. Baldwin: Being a member of a labor union can give players the ability to negotiate for better health care , support staff, and facilities as we just saw the new agreement between thewnba and its players association. Ms. pivec, how a collective bargaining impact the assurance that all athletes receive the medical care they need.
▶ 1:25:50Ms. Pivec: I think with an il, people want to focus on the money but the medical negligence and accountability that comes with collective bargaining an outside entity that is independent and fully owned by the players is necessary to protect the players first. So I fully believe in a union and players association that does enforce those accountability mechanisms.
▶ 1:26:17Sen. Baldwin: Congratulations on the new agreement with the wnba. Georgia tells anymore about that?
▶ 1:26:24Ms. Pivec: I am a fan. I'm super excited they have come to the agreement.
▶ 1:26:31Sen. Baldwin: Mr. anderson, in your testimony, you note any legislation must include sufficient health and safety protections for students. Can you give examples of the type of health and safety protections that should be included in any legislative efforts that we are looking at?
▶ 1:26:54Mr. Anderson: They want to see third-party enforcement, similar to what we just talked about, mandated reporting or whistleblower protections. That simple.
▶ 1:27:04Sen. Baldwin: Thank you.
▶ 1:27:06Chair Cassidy: I am now privileged to call for the very first time on senator armstrong to ask questions in the committee.
▶ 1:27:15Sen. Armstrong: I want to say thank you. I have been in your seats a lot more than I have been in the seat. I appreciate you taking the time to be here and share your thoughts. This is a very complex issue and I think the goal here is to try to get something that makes sense for everybody and not just superstars that we all hear about that for everybody.
▶ 1:27:44Sen. Armstrong: In oklahoma, we have softball and wrestling are very big sports in oklahoma. Our softball team at university of oklahoma has had eight national championships, four consecutive, 34 national titles at oklahoma state university for wrestling. So very familiar with the situation where people are really working their tails off putting themselves with a lot of exposure to injuries.
▶ 1:28:12Sen. Armstrong: My daughter played soccer at the university of tulsa, which is a school that can't afford to operate in an environment where they are forced to pay payments. One of the way they have been able to be successful in that is your offering scholarships to a great school and that allows them to attract great people. I am curious, and this comes to you, Ms.
▶ 1:28:35Sen. Armstrong: Lynch, what your perspective is on those -- and if you have heard anything from them about concerns about taxation on benefits that they get, that student athletes -- my daughter played with a lot of fantastic young ladies that would not have been at that school if they did not have a scholarship. I wonder about how taxation and is that a concern from the athletes?
▶ 1:29:03Ms. Lynch: Thank you for this question. I actually was an accounting major so the taxation question is great. I am an aspiring cpa. A lot of student athletes are not actually familiar with the fact if we became employees, your academic tutor you have to go to once a month, that is taxed. You have to report that.
▶ 1:29:27Ms. Lynch: There are seven academic support services, student athlete development, health care -- all of the benefits you receive as being a student athlete, those could be taxed in a way. Any wage you receive. They are doing a good job at least with informing student athletes anything above $600 in nil and revenue sharing is taxable, but a lot of people are learning that, student athletes are.
▶ 1:29:53Ms. Lynch: It is a concern when I tell student athletes that is in impact from an employment model, that is a concern for them because that is not something they're familiar with. I talked to student athletes at the big 10, ncaa and serve on many engagement groups and I sit on several committees that I'm talking to student athletes weekly, daily. That is certainly a concern. I appreciate this perspective. I also want to shut out yokohama limits gymnastics team because they are also really good.
▶ 1:30:22Sen. Armstrong: Thank you. I will turn the floor back to you.
▶ 1:30:29Chair Cassidy: Thank you. I'm sorry, is it hickenlooper or alsobrooks? I think hickenlooper nailed it. I'll issue a 10 from gymnastics. [inaudible] senator hickenlooper yields to alsobrooks.
▶ 1:30:56Sen. Alsobrooks: Thank you for hosting today's hearing. Thank you as well to our witnesses for being here today. I'm lucky I represent some really great schools and some terrific student athletes in my state which is the state of maryland. Everything from the university of maryland terrapins and our naval academy, midshipmen, as well as the retrievers. I am really fortunate to represent them a less popular fact about me is I am a graduate of duke university.
▶ 1:31:27Sen. Alsobrooks: Let's go blue devils. I was there during the height of basketball days when christer layton or was there with that amazing shot or the back to back championships. Back then, you could a ticket to the final four for $20-$40. College basketball and college athletics have changed significantly since those days. I'm told the duke-st.
▶ 1:31:49Sen. Alsobrooks: John game this friday starting $505 for the nosebleed seats. Sports betting has exploded since my time in college. Americans have legally waged $3.3 billion for march madness. Broadcast rights are passing 1.4 billion dollars with another 1.2 billion dollars spent just on advertising.
▶ 1:32:16Sen. Alsobrooks: In the last five years alone, college athletics have been revolutionized. This question is first for Ms. pivec, revolutionized by the name, image, likeness that was prompted not by benevolence as we have heard today but by the ncaa losing litigation in the supreme court. Ms.
▶ 1:32:33Sen. Alsobrooks: Pivec, your college career I know ended right before the ncaa instituted its name image and likeness policy but how is the nature of the game shifted rapidly student athletes who are navigating their college careers since your time on the court? I also wonder how has a rapid infusion of money in this new era heightened the need for athlete protections?
▶ 1:32:59Ms. Pivec: Thank you for the question and recognizing the scale of this business. It is crazy six years ago back in my day with pre-nil transfer portal, things have changed but we have been able to talk with hundreds of women's basketball players and thousands of athletes across the country. A lot of the same things -- there's been so much progress through nil terms of opportunity. We still have so much more to go.
▶ 1:33:28Ms. Pivec: A lot of the stars today are able to maximize their market value through the transfer portal, but a lot of the players at the bottom are still earning close to zero dollars and just her stipend and nothing about that. I believe athletes need to collectively bargain in order to maximize their value for everyone.
▶ 1:33:47Sen. Alsobrooks: And while the nil policy may progress, we know the student athletes are still not on equal footing so has the nil era exacerbated in your opinion some of the existing power dynamics between student athletes in colleges and how would additional statutory guardrails help to protect athletes from this dynamic?
▶ 1:34:08Ms. Pivec: I think the skill of the business has shown how much money is involved and athletes are just getting a little bit of this. It has made it a controversial topic amongst dinner tables across the country. Athletes need a voice at the table. They need a true voice. They need to be represented not just in a performative voice but a real voice.
▶ 1:34:38Sen. Alsobrooks: Mr. anderson, when you see the numbers flowing into march madness alone, including ticket prices going for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, it begs the question who is benefiting from this due dynamic? Our students across the spectrum of college athletics benefiting equally from the new big business of college sports? I'm talking about women sports in particular and lower revenue sports like swimming and track.
▶ 1:35:06Sen. Alsobrooks: Are these programs being invested in at the same rate as murky sports like football and basketball?
▶ 1:35:13Mr. Anderson: I think the answer is certainly no, they are not being invested in equally. The question of whether they should be is a different question. I think when you have tremendous money flowing towards men's and women's basketball, they are generating that revenue. But the revenue -- today the revenue that comes from march madness, that funds a vast majority of the ncaa budget, not the school themselves. So that money does flow out to sports like mine and it has for a very long time.
▶ 1:35:44Mr. Anderson: But it does not flow certainly to the athletes of the sports to the degree it does to the athletes in basketball or football.
▶ 1:35:53Sen. Alsobrooks: Is there a risk without guardrails that schools will be involved in to pick winners and losers when it comes to investment in athletic programs? And how does that threaten to rollback progress for student athletes that have been made in recent years?
▶ 1:36:12Mr. Anderson: I think the biggest threat is a loss of opportunity. The ncaa p's position is that we need guardrails to protect all sports and to ensure opportunity for folks like myself, for folks like abby continue to exist. But also that folks like michaela see what is due to them.
▶ 1:36:38Sen. Alsobrooks: I will yield back. Let's go blue devils.
▶ 1:36:40Chair Cassidy: The highly anticipated questioning >> of our coach. >>houston we have a problem. It is getting worse every day. Thank you for being here. Thank you for what you do. We have huge problems in a lot of areas. This year we will have 10,000 football players at all levels sign up for the transfer portal. 10,000. 5000 men and women basketball players will sign up for the transfer portal.
▶ 1:37:09Chair Cassidy: I just want to go through this -- I have a bill I put up my probably won't get enough support to pass but we have to start somewhere. We are all talking about ncaa, which has been a disaster, by the way come after 35 years of dealing with them. They are big part of the problem. Seems like we can't solve that problem. At the end of the day, the issue to me is pretty simple. The question is whether we still believe student athletes are supposed to be students. At the end of the day.
▶ 1:37:38Chair Cassidy: I am all for athletes being paid every dime they can get. Please go out and raise your money and take every dime people want to pay you. I'm all for that. I have always said that. As you said, I forget who said it, but it is a full-time job. My god, sports is full-time. Meetings, weightlifting, study hall, you name it. 35 years. I could not believe we worked with student athletes. That is behind us.
▶ 1:38:09Chair Cassidy: Young men and women have worked hard and earned that opportunity , they ought to be able to benefit from this opportunity. We don't even talk about scholarships anymore. That is what we used to talk about. Now we talk about money. The system is so far away from education is embarrassing. College athletes starting to look more like the pathway -- less likely a pathway to a degree and more like a revolving door read as I said, of all the transfers.
▶ 1:38:38Chair Cassidy: Athletes are bouncing from school to school, chasing the next deal. We all know that. They're not paying taxes and that is the next thing coming. They ought to be -- it ought to concern everybody. Everybody. Because for the overwhelming majority of these men and women's sports will not last forever if we continue down this path. 98% of the young men and women who go to college do not play pro sports. We need to get away from that.
▶ 1:39:08Chair Cassidy: The future is going to depend on the education. Education part of going to school. If you want to play nfl or pro, go get it done. But if you want to learn something, 95%, 98% of the kids I coached that you a degree, thank me all the time for making them go to class. I am introducing the student athlete died.
▶ 1:39:39Chair Cassidy: -- the student athlete guide. This bill I'm putting out is the basic idea. It is going to cause a problem with somebody but at the end of the day, we have to start somewhere, folks, or we are going to lose it. We are going to lose olympic sports. We are going to lose women's sports because there won't be any money. It will be club sports. I've got news for y'all, it is coming. The money is not going to be there. You can forget about title ix.
▶ 1:40:09Chair Cassidy: You can have all the lawsuits you want because the money is not there. The money's going to go to athletes to get on television. Student athletes to me should have a five year window. You start, you've got five years. I'm sick of these 28, 29-year-olds playing in a young person's and taking your money. I'm sick of that. Five years to play, no waivers, no excuses. Once you start, you go five years. At the end of the five years, you go into whatever you need to do the rest of your life.
▶ 1:40:40Chair Cassidy: It is pretty simple. You can get a degree in those five years. If you transfer one time, the likelihood of you getting a degree is almost zero. Think about that. Unless you want to go to school seven or eight years and pay for a lot of that yourself. So I am for a one-year transfer. At one time. You get it, freebie. Your coach leaves, something happens and your family, you transfer.
▶ 1:41:08Chair Cassidy: After that, you pay the penalty of what we used to do, transfer and you sit a year. You got a one-year transfer. One year. Folks, we can do this transfer portal. If we do it, as I said, we are going to lose men's sports, women sports, and we are going have just a couple out there that are going to be on television and that is it. They're not going to be any scholarships. I don't have a lot -- can I ask a couple of questions while I'm at it? Ms.
▶ 1:41:33Chair Cassidy: Lynch, my bill would solve the issue pretty quick in terms of transferring, but is it realistic for somebody to transfer and get a degree? L: thank you for your question. Also, war eagle.
▶ 1:41:53Chair Cassidy: I would say that the realistic capability of a student to transfer and still get a degree depends on where they transfer kemal beasley, we deal with porter schools and semester schools in the big ten and that is a really complex thing in terms of transferring credit from academic progress, progress toward degree and also the timing of transfer portals is not always the most helpful.
▶ 1:42:16Chair Cassidy: Like the football transfer portal is generally second-january 16 and that sits right in the middle of when quarter schools start the new semester. That is problematic for getting student athletes, particularly football student athletes, enrolled in their next institution which really puts them back academically. So transferring does inhibit academic progress, especially when you're transferring multiple times. I appreciate your question. Thank you.
▶ 1:42:44Sen. Tuberville: How do we keep integrity in this nonsense?
▶ 1:42:48Mr. Temple: Before I address the integrity question, I want to make some highlighted comments. As most of us know, south carolina is a super special women's basketball venue. They average 18,000 again in their stadium.
▶ 1:43:18Mr. Temple: There's another super basketball venue for women, it is called lsu. Kim mulkey, average about 13,000 persons a game.
▶ 1:43:34Mr. Temple: Here's the reality of what is going to happen in the world of athletics as it relates to title ix and women's sports, the year kim mulkey won the national championship -- what was the young lady's name? Angel reese.
▶ 1:43:58Mr. Temple: Lsu lost $6 million in the basketball arena for women. This past year at the university of south carolina, women's basketball lost $8 million. It is unsustainable. It is unsustainable.
▶ 1:44:26Mr. Temple: Now, the answer is, ok, what do you do with title ix in women's sports? I submit to you there is not a total of $8 million to $10 million that has been generated and earned to sustain women's sports. So as you move forward to work on this very complex circumstance, you got to take it all in the full consideration. You have to take it all.
▶ 1:45:00Mr. Temple: It is mostly about the money. Because of it being mostly about the money, it is fun -- vitally important that we figure out a way to make sure that student athletes participate in the college experience, which is the academic piece, first. Now, you say that we probably need to give them five years. I understand.
▶ 1:45:31Mr. Temple: Five years is a redshirt year plus four to play. Senator tuberville, I would ask you to consider a six year deal. A six year deal would involve a great shirt which is something you are familiar with, and in a redshirt, which is something you are also familiar with, and then give them four years to play.
▶ 1:45:57Mr. Temple: So when you're talking about an 18-year-old freshman, 19-year-old sophomore my 20-year-old junior, 21-year-old senior and you give them a couple of extra years to get it together, I think it will work a lot better than just five years. Now, what the hell was your [laughter] question? [laughter]
▶ 1:46:22Sen. Tuberville: Integrity. Can we keep integrity?
▶ 1:46:27Mr. Temple: Absolutely. We need to move forward on your concept because as you indicated, we have to start somewhere. We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We have to start somewhere. And I think your concepts and your perspective about how this thing has to work is healthy and must be done. The ncaa is not going to fix it.
▶ 1:47:02Mr. Temple: They're not going to fix it. We have to move forward with use editors.
▶ 1:47:08Chair Cassidy: To my democratic colleagues, I wanted to hear the coach's perspective and gave him extra time. If one if you wishes to take extra time, please take it. Coach has obviously the greatest insight so I don't want to play favoritism. Senator hickenlooper.
▶ 1:47:26Sen. Hickenlooper: The coach has special staining, recognize that. Thank you for being here. This is something on the one side is a financial renumeration and questions about what that does to sports. I thought senator husted, besides watching -- when he talked about the development of character and what that does to students at that age, it is very powerful. I was in the restaurant business for 15 years.
▶ 1:47:58Sen. Hickenlooper: We had 100 employees and end up about nine or 10 other restaurants. Over the course of that 15 years, probably hired 300 people directly myself, 250. Then I was a mayor and you have 68 people you hire and their stats and the governor from even more people. Probably up to 600 to 700 people I've hired in those. I have always looked for student athletes.
▶ 1:48:27Sen. Hickenlooper: That character building includes how you work with others, how you create a team effort where you realize what happens to you is less valuable than what happens to the group. I also look at kids that play in rock 'n' roll bands or theater, kids that have worked as camp counselors or local ymca. Those places where you are part of a framework.
▶ 1:48:56Sen. Hickenlooper: I remember back when I was a kid, it was all about the team and all about being willing to lose gracefully, recognizing when he was in everything. I still think -- I think most people would disagree with me when somebody said when he was in everything -- vince lon in everything -- vince lombardi said winning was in everything,
▶ 1:49:27Sen. Hickenlooper: It was the only thing bright that is when the country became divided. It detracts from what we've seen. I look at this in a very real way of how do we deal with these aspects at the same time. I think, Dr. scott, I will start with you, the needs of these small but mighty schools, if we can phrase it that way, I went to a little school in connecticut and played as a freshman I got moved up to the varsity soccer team we had our it.
▶ 1:49:57Sen. Hickenlooper: Some of the happiest days of my life were in high school and college sports. This debate about college athletics, so many ways smaller schools outside the power four conferences, opened more doors for more students to enter athletic competition by an order of magnitude.
▶ 1:50:21Sen. Hickenlooper: And since the house ultimate with the ncaa, we are thankful no division I school in colorado has cut a single sport from its athletic department. We have to think outside the box to make this -- maintain this. Dr. scott, what is your reaction to sin proposals that allow smaller universities to pull her to be broadcast rights in order to increase revenues but again, keep expanding sporting opportunities on campus?
▶ 1:50:51Dr. Scott: I think it is a great idea. Primarily because it increases and enhances opportunities. I think whenever you are in a unique space in an institution with the lure gramlin offers, have the ability to market and brand.
▶ 1:51:17Dr. Scott: We are direct benefactors of this great institution on thanksgiving weekend that everyone knows of course as the bayou classic. And so by right, we have a unique opportunity to continue to drive their brand imagery that is grambling state university. But every institution doesn't have that. Most of our institutions are caring, for example, 90%, 98, 90 9% pell grant rate for students that we serve.
▶ 1:51:45Dr. Scott: Being able to afford ourselves with the opportunity to drive revenues through television certainly is a benefit and allows us to sustain the opportunities that we provide for our student athletes across the board.
▶ 1:51:59Sen. Hickenlooper: I appreciate that. Ms. pivec, thank you -- thank you all for joining us. Colorado, you're probably aware, is home to the U.S. olympic and paralympic committee and to many of the national governing bodies that help support team usa.
▶ 1:52:23Sen. Hickenlooper: As we just saw in milan, the success team usa brings national tried. I think it brings real value to the country at many levels. Just on an international level, billions of dollars. Team usa relies on ncaa. I'm glad that cheryl give me an extra minute because I'm taking so long asking my questions. Ms.
▶ 1:52:50Sen. Hickenlooper: Pivec, can you describe for us the harmful impact when schools cut athletic programming on college athletes opportunities and especially including the opportunity to compete and represent team usa? What does it you do that pipeline?
▶ 1:53:10Ms. Pivec: I think the idea of cutting athletics in a sort of sports team is devastating to those athletes that train. I think we all care about protecting opportunity. I think we can do that through collective bargaining. A lot of people here have talked about sustainability and needing to start somewhere. I think it starts with the college sports act to address the sustainability component.
▶ 1:53:39Ms. Pivec: Let's maximize it and create as much value as we can to then be able to protect as much opportunity as possible while still recognizing the labor that is involved.
▶ 1:53:47Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you. Someone asked me yesterday knew I was going to come to this today and organizing collective bargaining for those ports that generate revenue, right? If there is compensation involved? Ms. pivec because we want to provide a place where all athletes are protected so we strongly believe athletes should be the ones drawing the line on whether they want to union or not. It should not be congress drawing the line for them.
▶ 1:54:16Sen. Hickenlooper: So all athletes want a union, they should have a right to do that.
▶ 1:54:20Sen. Hickenlooper: Thank you. I yield back.
▶ 1:54:23Chair Cassidy: Senator banks. Picture of the collective.
▶ 1:54:32Sen. Banks: I am an alum of the proud national champions indiana hoosiers from indiana university and I really don't want to mess this up. Because I think the hoosiers are going to come back into it all over again next year. The boilermakers have a shot at winning the national championship. In march madness. They play tonight. I'm happy for them, too.
▶ 1:55:00Sen. Banks: I really want to dig into the subject because we were all wrestling with it. So many questions from big schools, small colleges in my state trying to wrap our heads around it. I think the political dynamic is republicans and democrats are not that far off from what we agree on. It is this one small issue that gets in the way from us passing something related to unionization and how we treat student athletes -- whether we treat them as employees are not.
▶ 1:55:31Sen. Banks: I know you have all been talking about that extensively already but, can you talk from a doctor, about team dynamics and culture and how that would change if student athletes were treated as employees?
▶ 1:55:42Dr. Scott: Thank you, senator banks, and congratulations on your national championship. I played basketball in college. We're talking about iu --
▶ 1:55:57Sen. Banks: We are a football school now.
▶ 1:56:00Dr. Scott: Never talking about indiana as a football power. What a difference. Congratulations. You know what --
▶ 1:56:10Sen. Banks: It seems relevant to the subject we are talking about.
▶ 1:56:12Dr. Scott: I believe it is. I think the question surrounding culture related to sport, anything related to uniting the sport, kind of depends on who was at the table. We're just having the discussion from the lens of a power four than many of the group five institutions from the lower level institutions, the fcs institutions, and certainly the low resource institutions, which I represent, all have a say at the table.
▶ 1:56:42Dr. Scott: And just for clarity, the low resources institutions on the bottom and are basically the lowest 50 percentile and revenue generation in college athletics. -- 15 percentile in revenue generation in college athletics prayed I feel like there needs to be some semblance of opportunity to be at the table, to be able to have these discussions.
▶ 1:57:04Dr. Scott: I feel like if we're just having power four conversations, we need to drill a little deeper and you're going to only really have substantive discussions with football and Ms. basketball. So then there lies the missed opportunity for the rest of the sports. We have 15. Ohio state, there may be 36. There is an entirely different demographic of student athlete who don't have their voices heard and I'm going to say it again, missed an opportunity to have a seat at the table.
▶ 1:57:36Dr. Scott: That is one point. I think it undermines the essence of what education is for. I heard coach tuberville allude to an earlier. I hoped he would drill down deeper on the academics of these institutions. We are all in favor of nil.
▶ 1:57:55Dr. Scott: I'm certainly in favor of sharing revenue or direct compensation is made of our colleagues do, but I do agree the system needs to be refined in a way that provides opportunities for all involved. And then understanding the trickle-down effect.
▶ 1:58:13Dr. Scott: So what happens in division I, power four, affects the lower level fbs and that trickles to fcs in the lower levels of fcs and continues to trickle to divisioniii, iii, and where opportunities are being missed by our house school students. If you are a high school athlete, you're either elite or you're going somewhere else.
▶ 1:58:41Dr. Scott: Because as my friend who I've known coach me for many years Mr. temple has said, we have got 24, 25, 26, 28-year-old playing college athletics and limiting opportunities for our high school student athletes.
▶ 1:59:00Sen. Banks: I want to ask going a different subject, as the ncaa and congress both fall down -- we're both falling down on the job. We're not doing what we're supposed to do a pass that national law to confront the big issue. A lot of states are looking at what they can do, which crates a patchwork of state laws around the country.
▶ 1:59:19Sen. Banks: Can you talk about how complicated that is for recruitment and for how confusing that is for student athletes of different states are passing laws and we continue to fail to do something at this level?
▶ 1:59:31Dr. Scott: That is a great question and I know I'm pressed for time so I will share this, multiple jurisdictions are now effecting what is going on in college athletics. It is causing this competitive environment. I will give you an example. The state of alabama passes laws to be able to not tax nil. What does luana do? We follow suit because lsu has to play alabama.
▶ 2:00:01Dr. Scott: Gremlin has to plate alabama state. They're trying to level this playing field. And states are now becoming increasingly involved in manage jurisdiction process within that state lines with those higher education institutions. As we continue this very unstable environment states are going to become increasingly involved in generating legislation.
▶ 2:00:29Dr. Scott: That is going to allow their institutions at the state level to have a competitive -- a to have a competitive --
▶ 2:00:36Chair Cassidy: Senator king.
▶ 2:00:39Sen. King: Thank you for your testimony on this important issue. I've got to start with bragging about virginia team right now. The team I want to brag about is the uva women's swimming and diving team. They just won their sixth straight ncaa championship read they are the leader now in the nation in the run of ncaa championships.
▶ 2:01:00Sen. King: On the six teams, there were 11 -- six teams contributed to 11 medals in the olympics but it is an nonrevenue sport. If we do legislation, there are a lot of balances were going to try to strike. I think some are looking at the big versus small school balance and some a look at sports balance. I think I'm going to be really focused on revenue sports versus nonrevenue sports balance.
▶ 2:01:31Sen. King: To the extent that you have not said something already, if we want to try to legislate and get the revenue sport versus nonrevenue sport balance right, what are things we should be paying attention to? That would be for any of you. Mr. anderson?
▶ 2:01:52Mr. Anderson: I think the key is it is not a one-size-fits-all approach. What is true for alabama football is not true for stanford cross-country or virginia swimming. And I think that is the key is we don't treat everybody with one fell swoop because then there will be issues.
▶ 2:02:10Ms. Lynch: I think this is a great opportunity -- I know we've been dogging on the ncaa a little bit because of some past shortcomings, but this is where recently have done a really phenomenal job in restructuring their governance model. There is a sport specific committee for every ncaa division I sport and student athletes sit on these committees talking with coaches, administrators.
▶ 2:02:35Ms. Lynch: Recently the swimming committee had a bit of -- they had a bit of a back and forth coaches and administrators because they cut the b finals and that had to do with tv time. They didn't have enough board. The student athletes were like, hey, we want to bring this back.
▶ 2:02:54Ms. Lynch: At the swimming national championship, people were chanting "bring back b's." that is when a sport specific committee we already have existing and can have real impact is so important these nonrevenue sports to already have a voice. So going off of your question, it is important that we have committees that are already in place and utilize our student athlete voice and have them sit at the tables with diminished writers and coaches to actually make an impact.
▶ 2:03:26Sen. Kaine: I'm going to switch to gambling and a second but others who want to weigh in on that how do we make sure we doing right by nonrevenue sports? Ok, should I go to gambling?
▶ 2:03:40Ms. Pivec: I think there's a balance between -- we need to preserve opportunity and that is what we are here to do. Revenue, nonrevenue that is a. We need to respect the economic realities of the different sports. I think collective bargaining through one union can help strike that balance where our different rooms for each sport but recognizing all athletes deserve an opportunity, deserve to be protected.
▶ 2:04:07Sen. Kaine: I'm going to ask a question about gambling a start with Dr. scott. I am troubled by the whole phenomenon and it really worries me that people, especially I think young males getting into gambling in ways that are very destructive -- this isn't just college athletes. It is a phenomenon I'm troubled by. I'm also troubled about this gambling on prediction markets and what it does to athletes.
▶ 2:04:34Sen. Kaine: Athletes that miss a shot at the end ensures that someone has that a lot of money on them and they get harassed online or face pressure. College sports is pressure enough without having the world find a path to your door, and they can find you now pretty darn easy, and harass you because you did not live up to whatever weird expectation they have based on a bet they placed. How are you dealing with the gambling issue with your student athletes and what advice would you have for us?
▶ 2:05:01Dr. Scott: Thank you for that question, senator kaine. For us, it is about educating student athlete but also about empowering the student athlete. We cannot necessarily control the environment -- in most cases, some of these -- and I want to be very delicate here on how I described them, but some of these folks that are praying on the student athletes, more often than not, they are
▶ 2:05:33Dr. Scott: Introduced via social media. That is more of an environment that of course we cannot control. So what we choose to do is educate our young men and women on being able to of course identify the pressures of gambling and what happens when something happens -- when something occurs, even at front line communication. So robust compliance education is increasingly important.
▶ 2:05:58Dr. Scott: Being able to be forward facing, have those conversations, and be honest with your student athletes. Look, we are in a multimillion dollar business. When they hear grambling state university's going to ohio state and making a million dollars, they want to know where the money is. It provides a student athlete with a thought process of saying, hey, can we have some of it? I'm struggling.
▶ 2:06:25Dr. Scott: I have, we need prey to those questions come about and it opens them susceptible to respondent to the communication. For us, being able to offer that robust given occasion, being open -- we have a saying in our department, our door is always close but it is always open. And also invite the coaches in to have those conversations with those young men and women, of course, to be able to educate them. Have real conversations about gambling and the negative impacts on gambling on college athletics.
▶ 2:06:56Chair Cassidy: I've got two more questions. Mr. anderson, your approach is different than Ms. pivec's. You specifically spoke about limiting unionization to the revenue producing sports which would typically be minced basketball and men's football. Mr.
▶ 2:07:14Chair Cassidy: Temple spoke about even at lsu and south carolina packing the house losing $6 million to $8 million -- I think there were the first women's basketball team to be shown on broadcast tv in prime time. And despite that, they still losing money at that magnitude. So how do you phrase your approach differently than Ms. pivec's which would include all sports and you specifically mention revenue?
▶ 2:07:43Mr. Anderson: Let me clarify. It is not our position that it is only revenue-generating sports that should be able to unionize. It is our position, similar to hers, that athletes should be the motivating factor behind who becomes unionized. I think in my testimony I said that if congress is to act, it is to push the revenue sports in that direction.
▶ 2:08:12Mr. Anderson: If we believe congress should not be taking away rights from anybody, we do not believe congress should be the one to draw the line. It is just those sports that it is most clear or of employee status in the right to unionize. Where you draw the line? I can't answer that.
▶ 2:08:27Chair Cassidy: If one thing that Ms. lynch brought up I think Mr. temple, once you begin to put someone into a union, then they may have to pay tax on the training table, on the value of a scholarship. If they are required to study extra in order to keep their gpa up, are they going to become cited for those hours therefore taxed? A nonrevenue sport, that is going to drive at the expense.
▶ 2:08:58Chair Cassidy: If suddenly they negotiating rights to get paid x number of dollars and on an hourly wage, I don't see how it doesn't drive up expense. Within the athlete then has to pay taxes on that expense. So they're not going to earn that much because it is a nonrevenue sport. But the value of the scholarship at a place like stanford -- I'm sure stanford costs $80,000 a year.
▶ 2:09:27Chair Cassidy: So over the course of the year, $240,000 scholarship that they are paying taxes on but, no offense, I'm thinking cross-country does not generate that revenue and just being honest -- let's say they get paid $10,000 a year but have to pay taxes on $240,000 a year. Square that for me. It seems like that is really disadvantaged to the athlete.
▶ 2:09:53Mr. Anderson: Two things, one it is not clear that scholarships would be subject to any different tax treatment under an employment scheme. The second is I have not said that a cross country runner like myself necessarily should be employed. I'm not saying we shouldn't but I'm saying that as an unresolved question.
▶ 2:10:10Chair Cassidy: The employment issue seems to be the major divider. Every thing else has a lot of common ground. One point being made is that at least by Dr. scott and Ms. lynch , if you do employ, that will dry up resources for nonrevenue sports. Mr. temple said the same thing.
▶ 2:10:32Chair Cassidy: Let me ask the two of you, if collective bargaining did result in less compensation or maybe fewer scholarships, fewer roster spots for nonrevenue generating sports, would you still support collective bargaining rights for the athlete?
▶ 2:10:56Ms. Lynch Ms. Pivec: It would result in a better deal.
▶ 2:11:04Chair Cassidy: I gave you the hypothetical. I stipulate it is going to raise costs and that athletic department has to squeeze someplace. I gathered during covid 11 sports were ended at stanford because they could not support it because they had no revenue. So we know it is real. Let's stipulate.
▶ 2:11:28Chair Cassidy: Maybe later on we find it's wrong, but if these folks are right, that the absence of revenue and/or the increased expense will cause nonrevenue sports to be trimmed down, you still support collective bargaining rights?
▶ 2:11:43Ms. Pivec: I support it and raising revenue. So raising revenue for different opportunities we can preserve and we would have --
▶ 2:11:51Chair Cassidy: We'll raise the revenue? Mr. anderson.
▶ 2:11:58Mr. Anderson: To your point about stanford cutting 11 sports come after they cut the sports, they generated so much outcry from the stanford community alumni that the sports were brought back.
▶ 2:12:09Chair Cassidy: I understand that part philanthropy, if you will. But we are stipulating that if you increased the expense for the department, the department will have to trim some place and it -- if we stipulate it would trim by trimming -- trimming expense by trimming programs as Dr. scott said, and Ms. lynch said, would you still support those collective bargaining rights?
▶ 2:12:39Mr. Anderson: I support bargaining rights unconditionally. I want to be clear I think the costs associated with employment status, whether just for football and basketball players are for everybody, is margin. And I think there is plenty of room at the top of most athletic departments. The get coaching sellers, even athletic directors making $3 million a year. There is plenty.
▶ 2:13:02Chair Cassidy: I think the answer with my stipulation that even if it caused trimming, was still support unconditionally but did you modify stipulation. I do think it is fair to say, as I originally stipulated, you would still promote even if it caused trimming of roster spots. Go ahead.
▶ 2:13:32Mr. Anderson: Ncap's position is we need to protect all sports. The premise is a false premise. I don't think the squeeze would be so significant that it would be the end stanford cross country or anybody else's opportunity.
▶ 2:13:49Chair Cassidy: I would point out that Ms. lynch, Dr. scott, Mr. temple, coach tuberville disagree with you. It is not me, it is they. But all of you -- thank you for being here. It is an important topic for the future of college athletics which means the importance of all those who participate in student -- student athletes.
▶ 2:14:17Mr. Temple: As you ladies and gentlemen entertain this process, senator armstrong and senator cassidy and other members, please, please take into consideration there may be another path to help solving it and that is to put some guardrails on the salaries of coaches and professional athletic leaderships in the world of management.
▶ 2:14:48Mr. Temple: Because if you add up all of the salaries of the head coaches in the sec, football and probably basketball, you will find some moneys that could trickle down to student athletes and really serve a great purpose. As you manage this process, just take those things into consideration.
▶ 2:15:13Chair Cassidy: I'm not sure we can do that but I thank you all for being here. Thank you for serving our country. One more thing, I'm sorry. For any senator wishing to ask additional questions, questions for the record is due at 5:00 p.m. Thursday, april 9. Thank you for being here. The committee stands adjourned.